SubTalk Archive 11/1997

Thread title: New Orion DOT Buses==total 30 (758542)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:08 1997, by chris

Subject: New Orion DOT Buses==total 30
Message Number: 758542
Posted by: chris
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:08 1997

Can anyone please confirm if Orion V,,or Orion VI Low FLoor..Presently ,there are 30 If anyone needs other roster info on DOT Buses,Let me know,,,christof@webtv.net
- Subject: Re: New Orion DOT Buses==total 30
- Message Number: 758566
- Posted by: trolleybus
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:30 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]New Orion DOT Buses==total 30 posted by chris on October 20, 1997 at 20:33:40: they are orion 5.
  - Subject: Re: New Orion DOT Buses==total 30
  - Message Number: 758581
  - Posted by: chris
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:41 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: New Orion DOT Buses==total 30 posted by trolleybus on October 21, 1997 at 14:36:04: thank you

Thread title: Re: 10/26 Liberty State Park RR Show (758543)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:09 1997, by David Pirmann

Subject: Re: 10/26 Liberty State Park RR Show
Message Number: 758543
Posted by: David Pirmann
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:09 1997

In Reply to: [6]10/26 Liberty State Park RR Show posted by Bobw on October 20, 1997 at 20:26:49: I too was expecting this show, but there is no mention of it in this month's "Trains" or "Railfan and Railroad". I live two minutes away so I'll swing over and see if it's there anyway, but I am not expecting anything... If I were you it wouldn't be worth the trip... --Dave
- Subject: Re: 10/26 Liberty State Park RR Show
- Message Number: 758548
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:14 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: 10/26 Liberty State Park RR Show posted by David Pirmann on October 20, 1997 at 22:47:57: I was once able to call Liberty State Park and ask them. People there were very helpful. Try 201-915-3401 for info.
  - Subject: Re: 10/26 Liberty State Park RR Show
  - Message Number: 758591
  - Posted by: Dtrain
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:49 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: 10/26 Liberty State Park RR Show posted by Charles Fiori on October 21, 1997 at 07:29:28: I receive confirmation in the mail that the Liberty State Park train show is scheduled for Sunday October 26, 1997 from 9 to 5 rain or shine.
    - Subject: Re: 10/26 Liberty State Park RR Show
    - Message Number: 758608
    - Posted by: Bobw
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:03 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: 10/26 Liberty State Park RR Show posted by Dtrain on October 22, 1997 at 11:32:24: Thanks for your help. Now that I know the show is on, it makes the decision a little easier to make.
      - Subject: Re: 10/26 Liberty State Park RR Show
      - Message Number: 758677
      - Posted by: andrew huie
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: 10/26 Liberty State Park RR Show posted by Charles Fiori on October 21, 1997 at 07:29:28: ARGH! I totally missed it! That's what I get for not checking this site often enough. What did they have there?
        
        Subject: 10/26 Liberty State Park RR Show
        Message Number: 759111
        Posted by: Bobw
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:39 1997
        
        I want to confirm that this railroadiana show is still on. I saw something on it some time ago but haven't been able to confirm it. Can anyone out there assure me it's still on? It's a LONG trip from Phila, especially to find out it's not happening - so can someone impart some info here? Thanks.

Thread title: Re: Turboliners (CN Turbotrain (758544)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:10 1997, by Nathan

Subject: Re: Turboliners (CN Turbotrain
Message Number: 758544
Posted by: Nathan
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:10 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Turboliners posted by Philip Nasadowski on October 20, 1997 at 20:02:36: ALright, all this talk about slamtrak turbo's has me wondering: Is there a preserved/mothballed CN Turbotrain?? If there is they should really do a fan trip sometime, it'd be a change from the mundane airline style LRC's. One other thing: Seeing as VIA Rail tends to follow slAmtrak's beautiful example, do you think they will finally get the hint and implement high speed ELECTRIC trains between Toronto and Montreal??? Or are they going to sit on their collective asses and let the system wither....

Thread title: Re: Subway Line Designations===New (758545)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:10 1997, by Fernando Perez

Subject: Re: Subway Line Designations===New
Message Number: 758545
Posted by: Fernando Perez
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:10 1997

In Reply to: [6]Subway Line Designations===New posted by chris on October 20, 1997 at 00:18:00: I read in the papers recently that if the Amtrak strike happens, there was going to be a special "P" train that would run express from Jamacia to Midtwon, possibly via Chrsytie Street connection like the old K line? So could it be that those letters are used in the event of a special situation or emergency?
- Subject: Re: Subway Line Designations===New
- Message Number: 758546
- Posted by: sammy
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:12 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Subway Line Designations===New posted by chris on October 20, 1997 at 00:18:00: As far as I know, the V was supposed to run on the sixth avenue line and possibly to queens. There is a service sign that has been peeled away (its along the queens blvd line somewhere) that says something about the V line's service. I believe this sign was made in the seventies or early eighties
  - Subject: Re: Subway Line Designations===New
  - Message Number: 758547
  - Posted by: Todd Glickman
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:13 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway Line Designations===New posted by Fernando Perez on October 21, 1997 at 02:19:51: I can hear the conversation at the token booth now: Commuter: "Sir, how do I get to Manhattan?" Agent: "Take a P." Maybe THAT'S why this letter is unused?
    - Subject: Re: Subway Line Designations===New
    - Message Number: 758575
    - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:37 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Subway Line Designations===New posted by chris on October 20, 1997 at 00:18:00: this has been gone over numerous times. W is for Astoria-B'way service rush hours when the Manhattan Bridge and 63st connection open (Astoria-South Ferry) The V is a 'via sixth avenue' service that will be used for queens Blvd service when the 63st connection opens. the train will terminate at World Trade Center. The black letters in white circles are for supplemental services, like the 'P' that will be used for the LIRR strike express. -Hank
      - Subject: Re: Subway Line Designations===New
      - Message Number: 758576
      - Posted by: Jim Tesoriero
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Subway Line Designations===New posted by chris on October 20, 1997 at 00:18:00: The New York Division Bulletin - October 1997 - Electric Railroaders Association gives a list of R44/R46 Electronic Sign Readings. Hank hits it right on. The V looks like it could potentially be extended down the Culver or Brighton Line for a southern terminus. The W could potentially go down to 95th Street or Coney Island via Brighton, Sea Beach, or West End on the southern end. Let me know if you want a faxed copy of my list. Jim
        
        Subject: Re: Subway Line Designations===New
        Message Number: 758583
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway Line Designations===New posted by Jim Tesoriero on October 21, 1997 at 20:48:20: Absolutely. Always interested in hearing from others interesteed in signs. Have a pretty decent collection myself. Maybe post it on here, such as I did with the R32/38 signs about 2 weeks ago.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway Line Designations===New
        Message Number: 758594
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway Line Designations===New posted by Jim Tesoriero on October 21, 1997 at 20:48:20: The R-44/R-46 destination sign listing has been in the ERA's New York Division Bulletin for MONTHS now - they've been publishing about 80+ destinations a month for the past year, I think. October's might be the last one (I don't remember if it went to Z and I don't have it in front of me right now to check ....) --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Subway Line Designations===New
        Message Number: 758599
        Posted by: Bob Sklar
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:56 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Subway Line Designations===New posted by chris on October 20, 1997 at 00:18:00: Leave us not forget the IRT route designations on the front end of the new R62's (or is it R68's? - I forget which one is the IRT). I have so far seen the following: 8, 10, 12 - green 11 - purple 13 - red Any information out there? As no expansion work seems to be even planned for the IRT, could these refer to alternate designations for such services as the 5, 6 and 7, which each refer to two concurrent services during rush hours? Thanks, Bob Sklar
        
        Subject: Subway Line Designations===New
        Message Number: 759084
        Posted by: chris
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:18 1997
        
        Does anyone have a list of terminals for the W Line V Line P Line I understand these are Proposed Line Designations Thank you christof@webtv.net
        
        Subject: Re: Subway Line Designations===New
        Message Number: 759086
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Subway Line Designations===New posted by chris on October 20, 1997 at 00:18:00: See my post on R-32/38 Side signs. Route designations are listed based on the readings on the sign curtains. Your imagination can run wild from there.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway Line Designations===New
        Message Number: 759094
        Posted by: dan
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Subway Line Designations===New posted by chris on October 20, 1997 at 00:18:00: As far as I know the P,V and W lines might be for the second avenue subway

Thread title: Re: R-32's on Q/ 40's on N (758549)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:15 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Re: R-32's on Q/ 40's on N
Message Number: 758549
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:15 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: R-32's on Q/ 40's on N posted by Mark S Feinman on October 20, 1997 at 12:43:49: Vibrations occurred because the Rockwell trucks were falling apart. Reminds me of a story I heard when I worked at Jay Street. Some TA managers were summoned to a woman's home along the Brighton line. They were somewhat incredulous of her contention that the vibrations she felt from passing trains were most acutely felt when she was on the commode. So, to do the right thing, one of the managers sat down, in anticipation of an R46 passing by. The woman's husband happened in and said to the man, "What the heck are you doing here, buddy??" "Waiting for a train," the TA manager said. LOL
- Subject: Re: R-32's on Q/ 40's on N
- Message Number: 758561
- Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:26 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: R-32's on Q/ 40's on N posted by Steve on October 17, 1997 at 21:32:47: Since C = 8th Av.-Concourse and B = 6th Av.-Washington Hts... therefore the change would make the C into an A and the B into a D... ...but there is already an A and a D so now the only savior is to make the C into an AA and the B into a DD to keep within the excellent plan devised by the designers of the IND back in the thirties. ...but that would mean double letters, which are verboten in the nineties so we need another solution... We can revive the old (60s) BMT designation for the West End Line and make that the T and the old (30s) designation for the Fulton St. Local and make that the H. Now we have the perfect service for drunks as we have the DT line going to the Bronx and you can breath a sigh of relief headed for Washington Heights on the AH..... While we are at it, we could complete the takeover of the IND by the BMT by making the D the Q for Brighton and the Q could become the U since that letter is available. Now the Culver line never had a BMT designation, but given the pattern of N, Q, and T, the Culver would obviously be the W. Next the south end of the A uses the old Liberty Av. extension of the Fulton St. el so that should get a BMT designation too. How about the unused 'P' ... wait! that even goes with Pitkin. So now having eliminated almost every existing IND designation, we note that the E shares a terminal with the J, so lets revive the K for that. Finally there is the G, which serves Greenpoint and bridges the Gowanus Canal and is the only pure IND line left. We solve that problem by building a connection from the Brooklyn - Queens crosstown line into the unused part of the 63rd. St. tunnel and then tieing it into the Broadway-7th Av. line on the Manhattan side as an express terminating at Canal St. Since doing all this makes no sense at all, it would be the Y line! So now we have: H Euclid to 168th St. J Broad St. to Jamaica Center K WTC to Jamaica Center L 8th Av. to Carnasie M West End to Myrtle Av. N Sea Beach to Astoria P Lefferts/Rockaway to 207th St. Q Brighton to Concourse R Fort Hamilton to Continental Av. T West End to Concourse U Brighton to Continental Av. W Culver to 179th - Hillside Y Canal St. to Smith - 9th This eliminates any trace of the common sense used by the designers of the IND in designating the lines and accepts the fact that the BMT has really absorbed the IND. If only Mayor Hylan could be here... Within a few days about 3 million New Yorkers would be lost, since without their familiar designations, the only people who knew where they were going would be the riders of the J, L, M, N, R and the IRT. OK, this is a bit radical, but its nice to poke fun at the planners now and then. Lets face it - to have lasted as long as it did, the AB-CD-EF to ACE-BDF system must have been pretty well thought out. Why mess with it now? Readers of this message will self-destruct in 10 seconds................ Gerry
  - Subject: Re: R-32's on Q/ 40's on N
  - Message Number: 758565
  - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:29 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: R-32's on Q/ 40's on N posted by Gerry O'Regan on October 21, 1997 at 12:28:32: My thoughts are that if and when this happens we will no longer have each of the lines being serviced by trains from both 8th and 6th Ave lines. However, in terms of equipment storage/maintainance it does seem to make sense.
    - Subject: R-32's on Q/ 40's on N
    - Message Number: 758605
    - Posted by: Philip E. Dominguez
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:01 1997
      
      In the continuing R-40's saga about half of the R-40's from the Q were moved to the N Line. The R-32's From the N were moved to the Q. I Heard that there is a R-32 on the D line(can anyone verify this). The Last R-68a from the Q line was moved Last weekend (10/12/97). -Phil
      - Subject: Re: R-32's on Q/ 40's on N
      - Message Number: 758694
      - Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:10 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]R-32's on Q/ 40's on N posted by Philip E. Dominguez on October 16, 1997 at 21:22:51: I talked to a friend that is an equipment guru about the R40's. In additon to the other reasons posted here, TA is anticipating the switching the B and C lines' northern terminals next year. Having the 68a's on the b the 68/68as will have the same north/south yards so it will be easy to swap equipment on short or no notice. He also said the R40's should've gone directly to the q when they came back from rebuild/overhaul a few years ago. Q tends to be a bit more crowded then the B rush hours. A full length 40 has higher capacity than a full 68 but has fewer seats. That's all I've heard, I'll try to tie him down on the 32's.
        
        Subject: Re: R-32's on Q/ 40's on N
        Message Number: 758931
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:17 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]R-32's on Q/ 40's on N posted by Philip E. Dominguez on October 16, 1997 at 21:22:51: The D line is served totally by Concourse Maintenance Shop. The Concourse fleet is made up of 296 R-68 cars. There are no R-32s in the Concourse fleet so NO R-32 D trains......The swap between the Q and B line equipment was done for some very valid reasons. Primarily to increase the mileage accumulated by the newer R-68A fleet while permitting the R-40 fleet to lay up during the weekend to receive the maintenance that the older cars require. One added benifit will be decreased dwell time on the Q line because of the 8 additional door openings per train.
        
        Subject: Re: R-32's on Q/ 40's on N
        Message Number: 758939
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: R-32's on Q/ 40's on N posted by Lou from Brooklyn on October 17, 1997 at 10:27:10: You are correct about the B / C swap - barring the community outrage that followed the B / Q equipment swap. Don't waste your time about the R-32s being back on the D line - cause it just ain't so - at least not now. 1999 - well that's another story !!!!!
        
        Subject: Re: R-32's on Q/ 40's on N
        Message Number: 759095
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:26 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: R-32's on Q/ 40's on N posted by Steve on October 17, 1997 at 21:32:47: > ... barring the community outrage that followed the B / Q equipment swap. Reminds me of the time when the TA tried to put the R-46s on the D line, I think, in the late 70s or early 80s. People living along the Brighton EL complained that the noise was more severe with the 8 car R46s than the 10 car R42s being used primarily at the time. The swap didn't last long; IIRC, shortly after that, the D got some R-10s and R-30s for a while. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: R-32's on Q/ 40's on N
        Message Number: 759098
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:28 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: R-32's on Q/ 40's on N posted by Mark S Feinman on October 20, 1997 at 12:43:49: I remember when this happened. I thought that the removal of R-46's was just part of the big equipment shuffle that took place.

Thread title: Re: $100,000,000 Surplus (758550)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:16 1997, by George

Subject: Re: $100,000,000 Surplus
Message Number: 758550
Posted by: George
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:16 1997

In Reply to: [5]$100,000,000 Surplus posted by Jeff on October 19, 1997 at 18:16:46: While $100,000,000 surplus seems like quite a sum of money, it's too early to determine whether this will turn into a trend or if it's just an isolated incident. Considering the great deal of overhead the MTA has (utilities, Payroll, Advertising, Maintenance, etc.)and not to mention capital expenditures (new subway cars and buses), the $100,000,000 can be used up relatively fast. I agree lowering the fair is foolish, serving only as a political stunt and it will rise again.
- Subject: $100,000,000 Surplus
- Message Number: 759081
- Posted by: Jeff
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:15 1997
  
  It seems like most people want a fare decrease but I don't think that would be a good idea. We as customers deserve something more concrete like new trains, buses and infrastucture and cleaner stations and tracks. The MTA should also find ways to make trains operate ON TIME no matter what it take. A fare decrease might not last long if oil prices go up or if somthing terrible happens. In that case most people would be left with their jaws wide open just like November '95. P.S.The NYCTA might also want to pay off some of their enormus debt. (I dont know about you guys but I hate oweing money)

Thread title: Re: Subway Crime (758551)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:17 1997, by Lou from Brooklyn

Subject: Re: Subway Crime
Message Number: 758551
Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:17 1997

In Reply to: [5]Subway Crime posted by Subman on October 17, 1997 at 10:55:41: Funny, this past weekend on my travels I saw somthing like 20 cops . On the IRT they did the old two man walk through. Both enter car from end door, one walks through as the other waits. Then the 2nd one follows and they both exit car. They wrote summons on the car in front and behind mine for open container and unsafe riding. Now transfering at Atlantic we had 5 grey shirt Acadamey "students" escorted by a sargent and 2 other cops onto the D. Where they then showed how to write summons for open container. I haven't seen anymore cops during rush hour though....
- Subject: Subway Crime
- Message Number: 758759
- Posted by: Subman
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:01 1997
  
  Just heard on the news that crime in the subway is up (especially at night). Commissioner Safeer to place 300 recruits into the subway. Making my living in the subway, I wonder what took the media so long to catch on to this fact. Since the merger in 1995, I find that subway policing is no longer a priority. Wish we still had New York's real "Finest".........The Transit Police.
  - Subject: Re: Subway Crime
  - Message Number: 759103
  - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:32 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Subway Crime posted by Subman on October 17, 1997 at 10:55:41: Unfortunately, I've never had much faith in the NYPD, but that's another story - but I always felt that merging the police depts was an idea that only looked good on paper. In the past - If nothing else you could count on seeing a officer(s) guarding a bank of turnstiles and on the trains, but now they seem to be close to non-existant.

Thread title: Re: Second Avenue Subway TA $$ on them (758553)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:19 1997, by Lou from Brooklyn

Subject: Re: Second Avenue Subway TA $$ on them
Message Number: 758553
Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:19 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: Second Avenue Subway posted by Mark Greenwald on October 18, 1997 at 17:12:32: I remember some news story about the TA spending a million on ventilation or drains or somthing for the unused 2nd Ave tunnels. The normal action of trains passing through the tunnel is absent from 2nd Ave and they are having some structural problems so they had to spend money to keep maintained. The report said they send inspection teams into the tunnel on a regular bassis.
- Subject: Re: Second Avenue Subway TA $$ on them
- Message Number: 758596
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:54 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Second Avenue Subway TA $$ on them posted by Lou from Brooklyn on October 21, 1997 at 09:09:56: Heard on a tour of the 2nd Ave subway under Chinatown, the tunnels are inspected every two weeks. --Mark

Thread title: Take the "P" train (758554)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:19 1997, by Ed Sachs

Subject: Take the "P" train
Message Number: 758554
Posted by: Ed Sachs
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:19 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway Line Designations===New posted by Todd Glickman on October 21, 1997 at 07:20:33: Actually, I believe that when the letter system was extended to the BMT lines in the late 50's, the 'P' line was supposed to be the Culver line. However, before any roll signs were made with the new designations (the R27's in 1960), the Culver line had been reduced to a shuttle service and thus 'P' did not appear. Historical note -- for several years after most of the Culver line became part of the IND, weekday through service was still operated between Ditmas Ave. and Chambers St.
- Subject: Re: Take the "P" train
- Message Number: 758555
- Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:21 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Take the "P" train posted by Ed Sachs on October 21, 1997 at 09:14:40: Actually, weren't all the locals in the 1970's or so double letters?? That would have made the P the PP. I tend to think that would have led to at least some bad jokes about subway service at the time ;) Anyway......
  - Subject: Re: Take the "P" train
  - Message Number: 758562
  - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:26 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Take the "P" train posted by Ed Sachs on October 21, 1997 at 09:14:40: While on this thread, check the thread re: the R-40R32 swap for a message I posted about taking this letter bit to its logical(?) conclusion (or is it confusion???).

Thread title: New bus stop signs (758556)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:22 1997, by John M.

Subject: New bus stop signs
Message Number: 758556
Posted by: John M.
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:22 1997

What are some opinions on the new bus-stop signs? I think they're more informative than the old ones, but they're also a little too cutesy-poo nostalgic.
- Subject: Re: New bus stop signs
- Message Number: 758569
- Posted by: Jerry
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:32 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]New bus stop signs posted by John M. on October 21, 1997 at 10:11:20: I think that they're great. Can be seen from a distance and give info more clearly than the old ones. It's obviously a matter of one's taste, but I think they look good too.
  - Subject: Re: New bus stop signs
  - Message Number: 758573
  - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:35 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]New bus stop signs posted by John M. on October 21, 1997 at 10:11:20: The new poles with the smaller route signs on one side, and the destination and main road on them? They seem to be popping up at major transfer points. Not bad, but I still expect them to be damaged by vandals. -Hank
    - Subject: Re: New bus stop signs
    - Message Number: 758614
    - Posted by: Adam
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:07 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]New bus stop signs posted by John M. on October 21, 1997 at 10:11:20: I hate the new signs. They are trying to give NYC a flavor that it just doesn't have with those nostalgic-type signs. I also think that they have an odd shape to them. I say it's a waste of money to change them all. If you want more information about the buses, read a bus map.
      - Subject: Re: New bus stop signs
      - Message Number: 758617
      - Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:10 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]New bus stop signs posted by John M. on October 21, 1997 at 10:11:20: I like that you can see them from a distance but I would still like schedule information and route map.

Thread title: Re: Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes (or Music Videos) (758557)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:22 1997, by Mark Greenwald

Subject: Re: Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes (or Music Videos)
Message Number: 758557
Posted by: Mark Greenwald
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:22 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes (or Music Videos) posted by Bobw on October 20, 1997 at 17:48:48: You're right about the music videos---I remember a country music video that took place in a NY subway (don't remember the details). It was Ricky Scaggs "I'm just a country boy at heart"
- Subject: Re: Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes (or Music Videos)
- Message Number: 758629
- Posted by: Lou from Middletown
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:19 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes (or Music Videos) posted by Mark Greenwald on October 21, 1997 at 10:28:13: Just FYI that video takes place entirely in the Times Sq. Shuttle station (as does the new Stones video)- I guess that its an easy station to shut in the middle of the night , not to mention the 4 tracks going to Grand Central gives lots of flexibility as far as not tying things up too much...
  - Subject: Re: Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes (or Music Videos)
  - Message Number: 759107
  - Posted by: Bobw
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:35 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes posted by Mark S Feinman on October 20, 1997 at 12:30:08: If you count music videos, there are lots of them with subway bits in them. Recent ones include Elton John's hit of roughly a year ago (I forget the name!) with Elton piloting a zeppelin - many el shots; Rod Stewart's "Downtown Train" - subway, Williamsburg Bridge el, and Hoboken Terminal throughout, and (a few years back) Carole King's "City Streets" and a comeback song by Dion (again, I forget the name) in which he sings for change in a subway station. There are many more if you like to watch MTV (ugh) or VH1. Even a couple of country music videos have subway cameos.

Thread title: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS (758558)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:23 1997, by Lenny Zenith

Subject: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS
Message Number: 758558
Posted by: Lenny Zenith
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:23 1997

In London there are signs at the entrance of escalators - STAND RIGHT, PASS LEFT (or something to that effect), thus allowing those who want to walk up the escalators to pass on the left while those who want to stand stay on the right. Apparently many people were not taught this simple rule in elementary school. Could these signs be posted?
- Subject: Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS
- Message Number: 758560
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:25 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS posted by Lenny Zenith on October 21, 1997 at 10:53:56: Yes, I've wondered about this for years. The one place I've seen this done (consistently) on the NYC subway are the escalators at the west end of the #7 line platform at Grand Central that leads to the mezzanine level of the Lexington Ave line. In Washinton, DC, I haven't noticed any signs posted by WMATA, but people routinely stand on the right and walk on the left. Another thing that goes along with the courtesy is that in many places people form a line to board buses, but it's only done in certain places in New York City.
  - Subject: Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS
  - Message Number: 758564
  - Posted by: Dave
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:28 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS posted by Wayne Johnson on October 21, 1997 at 12:02:58: I'd settle for street people no longer peeing on the escalators.
    - Subject: Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS
    - Message Number: 758567
    - Posted by: Charles Fiori
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:30 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS posted by Wayne Johnson on October 21, 1997 at 12:02:58: One may remember a unique sign at the east end of the Flushing train plat at GC. "HOLD ON TO YOUR HATS"
      - Subject: Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS
      - Message Number: 758568
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS posted by Lenny Zenith on October 21, 1997 at 10:53:56: This is the first time I have heard of "Passing on escalators" anywhere but NY. I didn't experience it in DC, probably because I got off at Roslyn, where the length of the escalator is FORBIDDING! I have not experienced the practice anywhere else either, and I like to use it as an example of what the pace in NY is like. As far as "common courtesy" is concerned, I don't think anyone who is concerned about courtesy would consider bargeing past others on an escalator to gain a few lousy seconds.
        
        Subject: Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS
        Message Number: 758570
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS posted by Gary Jacobi on October 21, 1997 at 15:22:54: As I native New Yorker it would make sense for them to stand on the right sense there always seem to be that group of people who'd rather walk up the escalator. New York, after all is a fast paced city. I've lived in the DC area for 1 year and each day on may commute from Silver Spring to downtown Washington (and back) people are standing on the right and walking on the left. I don't see it as barging, especially since the escalators are wide. Now on a narrow escalator, I agree: people should not be trying to walk past others. New York is a great city and I'm always proud to call it my home, but terms of common courtesy, both as motorists and pedestrians/straphangers they have a lot to learn from other cities.
        
        Subject: Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS
        Message Number: 758578
        Posted by: John
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS posted by Wayne Johnson on October 21, 1997 at 12:02:58: The only place where I see actual lines to board busses is at the Port Authority, and even then, some people wait in the gate area for their bus to show up before lining up at the doorway (such as myself, not knowing what door my bus will stop at).
        
        Subject: Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS
        Message Number: 758580
        Posted by: F40C#614
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS posted by Lenny Zenith on October 21, 1997 at 10:53:56: The escalators at CUS (Chicago Union Station) are labeled as such but not those at CPT. (Chicago Passenger Terminal or North Western Station which has now been renamed The Richard B. Ogilvie Transportation Center....) I haven't seen any at the CTA stations I frequent. People standing on the left side of the escalator are my second biggest peeve ( the first is trying to get to a train while reverse commuting; the on- coming que has a lemming like quality to them; it's like they don't even see you) I find if you walk up behind the standees and say "excuse me" they will step aside or start walking.
        
        Subject: Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS
        Message Number: 758588
        Posted by: Mark Greenwald
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:47 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS posted by Wayne Johnson on October 21, 1997 at 12:02:58: You're right, there are no signs in any DC Metro stations specifically asking people to stand to the right---it's just common courtesy, especially on the long escallators such as the one at Rosslyn (Blue/Orange Line) and Dupont Circle (Red Line) to name a couple. On a similar note, on my many rides on the Baltimore Metro, the same is true there---no signs saying "stand to the right' but prople do it out of courtesy.
        
        Subject: Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS
        Message Number: 758597
        Posted by: FRED WELLMAN
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS posted by Mark Greenwald on October 22, 1997 at 10:09:19: While visiting London I noticed the stand to the right walk to the left for the first time. It seems quite common.
        
        Subject: Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS
        Message Number: 758631
        Posted by: Alan Follett
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS posted by Gary Jacobi on October 21, 1997 at 15:22:54: The "stand right/walk left" convention is quite common on BART, though not encouraged by any signs. The escalators are wide enough that it's not really a matter of "barging," and does not seem to be resented by the standing riders on the right. On the other hand, standing still on the left half of a BART escalator at rush hour would definitely draw glowers. BTW, a pet peeve: escalator users (turistas, perhaps, or just the hopelessly befuddled) who reach the end of the escalator--and come to a complete stop, looking about them, while other escalator users pile up behind them.
        
        Subject: Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS
        Message Number: 758679
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS posted by Dave on October 21, 1997 at 12:50:26: Not to mention peeing on the elevators. If you ever check out the street elevators on the 63rd Street/Lex. Ave. you'll know what I mean! *barf*
        
        Subject:
        Message Number:
        Posted by:
        Date: Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 1969

Thread title: Re: Subway Controler (Non R44/46) Deadman? (758559)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:24 1997, by Gerry O'Regan

Subject: Re: Subway Controler (Non R44/46) Deadman?
Message Number: 758559
Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:24 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway Controler (Non R44/46) Deadman? posted by Steve on October 17, 1997 at 21:39:14: Now it all makes sense. Since the R-9s were the last cars with automatic (train) air, there was no way to interlock the brake and dead-man reliably, thus the need for the lock-down as on the 4000s in Chicago. Interestingly, none of Boston's train air cars ever had a deadman, the 1924 East Boston cars got one when they were converted to SMEE in 1952. The other cars had a spring loaded power handle which returned to off when released, but nothing to interlock the brakes.
- Subject: Re: Subway Controler (Non R44/46) Deadman?
- Message Number: 758791
- Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:26 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway Controler (Non R44/46) Deadman? posted by Steve on October 16, 1997 at 18:55:21: Thank-you Steve That is the way all Boston SMEE equipment works but someone told me otherwies re: NYC. On Chicago 4000s the reverse mechanism does lock the dead-man down - but they are train air cars and not applicable in this case. I stand corrected. Gerry
  - Subject: Re: Subway Controler (Non R44/46) Deadman?
  - Message Number: 758854
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:17 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Subway Controler (Non R44/46) Deadman? posted by Lou from Brooklyn on October 15, 1997 at 10:50:24: Wrist strain is hardly realistic for train operators for three reasons. First, the train operator can switch hands during operation. Second, the train operator can release the handle while in stations as long as the brake valve is in the "Full Service" position. Finally the master controller handle, if properly adjusted, requires 9 Lbs. of force to push the handle down but requires just 2 Lbs. to keep it down. The student most likely was suffering from an old BOWLING injury...
    - Subject: Re: Subway Controler (Non R44/46) Deadman?
    - Message Number: 759005
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:15 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway Controler (Non R44/46) Deadman? posted by Gerry O'Regan on October 17, 1997 at 12:17:59: The reverser locking down the deadmans feature, on the NYC Transit ended with the R-9s. The first time I was aware that this could be done, I was riding the #4 pickup out of 207th St. Yard. between 125th St. and 59th St., the motorman, with the train coasting at about 30 mph, locked down the handle and came out of the cab. Scared the S&#% out of me too....
      - Subject: Subway Controler (Non R44/46) Deadman?
      - Message Number: 759030
      - Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:34 1997
        
        I was watching a train operator get instruction on today's Q run into the Manhattan. The new operator was operating from Church to 47/50st and then asked the instructor to take over holding and saying his left wrist was sore. It is my understanding that the so called "deadman" switch is in the controler and has to be held down to keep the train from emergancy? In the new subway cars is there any consideration for a different type of saftey/deadman switch?? (Like an electrical circut or something) Wondering is wrist strain is an operator job hazzard?
        
        Subject: Re: Subway Controler (Non R44/46) Deadman?
        Message Number: 759031
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:35 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Subway Controler (Non R44/46) Deadman? posted by Lou from Brooklyn on October 15, 1997 at 10:50:24: You mean like Montague Tunnel Syndrome, Lou?? LOL Operators typically switch hands, so this individual must have been real new.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway Controler (Non R44/46) Deadman?
        Message Number: 759032
        Posted by: Todd Glickman
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway Controler (Non R44/46) Deadman? posted by Charles Fiori on October 15, 1997 at 11:45:40: At the Seashore Trolley Museum, we have cars 800/1440 (R4/R7). The deadman on the spring-loaded controller handle is not too tough, but I can guess that after an eight-hour shift it could be bothersome. (I have noticed some NYCTA operators releasing the deadman at every station stop, which can be done without dumping into emergency, with a large [70 lb. or so?] reduction in trainline pressure.) However, our (IRT) Gibbs Car #3352 has a "plunger" type deadman, whereby you have to hold the plunger down into the controller handle with your palm through its entire rotation. I suppose the spring on the plunger may have gotten stiffer over the decades, but it seems to me that this style is a WHOLE LOT more uncomfortable than the current spring-loaded handle. And with the large arc required to get into full parallel, it is nearly impossible to switch hands easily for a while.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway Controler (Non R44/46) Deadman?
        Message Number: 759039
        Posted by: Anthony Pardi
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway Controler (Non R44/46) Deadman? posted by Todd Glickman on October 15, 1997 at 12:44:24: Every subway class including r44(westcode) and r-46 Ny air brake have a deadman feature which if the brakes are in the service range which when released even if train is stopped will cause an emergency brake application. My first few months as a train oper. resulted in soreness in the wrists eventually subsides.. the idea of using the deadman feature at terminals is to test the feature.. when a train is made up for service the deadman is tested at both ends of a train before leaving the yard.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway Controler (Non R44/46) Deadman?
        Message Number: 759050
        Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway Controler (Non R44/46) Deadman? posted by Todd Glickman on October 15, 1997 at 12:44:24: IIRC the dead-man on the SMEE equipment is locked out only if you center the reverser. Also on SMEE equipment there is no such thing as a reduction, the brake pipe is either charged (run) or empty (emergency). A self lapping valve varies the straight air pipe pressure, sensors and magnet valves equalize it on the trailing cars, and a variable load system sets the actual cylinder pressure. R1-9 cars use a traditional train air system with electric holding, that on 3352 is even more antiquated. Gerry
        
        Subject: Re: Subway Controler (Non R44/46) Deadman?
        Message Number: 759080
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway Controler (Non R44/46) Deadman? posted by Gerry O'Regan on October 16, 1997 at 09:46:09: The reverser has absolutely nothing to do with brake pipe nor does it defeat the deadman's feature on any NYCT equipment currently in service. If the brake valve is any position other than the 'Emergency or full service" positions, a check valve is opened which feeds air to the pilot valve. If the master controller handle is not depressed, the pilot valve remains open, venting the brakepipe air to atmosphere. Only the position of the brakevalve will defeat the deadmans feature.

Thread title: Re: NEW LIRR DIESEL PICS!!(eeeewwwww! THAT's a diesel?) (758571)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:33 1997, by Gary Jacobi

Subject: Re: NEW LIRR DIESEL PICS!!(eeeewwwww! THAT's a diesel?)
Message Number: 758571
Posted by: Gary Jacobi
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:33 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: NEW LIRR DIESEL PICS!!(eeeewwwww! THAT's a diesel?) posted by Nathan on October 19, 1997 at 13:54:58: My first reaction was the same as yours, but if you look closely at all the pictures you will see that the ugly shot is of the back end of the beast. The little cab window is for solo back-up moves.
- Subject: Re: NEW LIRR DIESEL PICS!!(eeeewwwww! THAT's a diesel?)
- Message Number: 759079
- Posted by: Nathan
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:14 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]NEW LIRR DIESEL PICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! posted by Philip Nasadowski on October 10, 1997 at 20:49:13: God, that's a diesel engine? It looks like a powered boxcar!! Or am I looking at it the wrong way?)

Thread title: Re: Take the "P" train:Speaking of roll signs... (758572)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:34 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: Re: Take the "P" train:Speaking of roll signs...
Message Number: 758572
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:34 1997

In Reply to: [5]Take the "P" train posted by Ed Sachs on October 21, 1997 at 09:14:40: Can anyone tell me something - The generally accepted history of signs is that when new roll signs were ordered in the early '60s, all lettered signs were ordered; then howcome I've seen pictures of trains (R-32s & others), with numbered signs i.e. a #4 with the destination Coney Island,etc. See the original edtion of Cudahy for example. Just wondering.....
- Subject: Re: Take the "P" train:Speaking of roll signs...
- Message Number: 758585
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:45 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Take the "P" train:Speaking of roll signs... posted by Lou from Middletown on October 21, 1997 at 19:20:12: I'm not sure if the R32's had numbered signs. They might have been the first to have exclusively letters on their signs (the IND A/AA thru H letters and the letters for the BMT lines -J,L,M,N,R,Q,Z). The R27/R30's definitely had numbers on their signs as well as the letters, which represented the old BMT numbering scheme for the lines. There's a whole list of Ex-BMT line designations at [7]Route and Color Markings
  - Subject: Re: Take the "P" train:Speaking of roll signs...
  - Message Number: 758586
  - Posted by: Ed Sachs
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:45 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Take the "P" train:Speaking of roll signs... posted by David Pirmann on October 22, 1997 at 08:33:20: The first BMT/IND cars to have all letters on the roll signs were the R27s (1960). The previous group of BMT/IND cars delivered, the R16s (1954) had letters (A-HH) for the IND routes and numbers for the BMT routes, and up until 1967, these numbers were used (the cars were generally used on BMT Eastern division lines, mostly the #15 Jamaica Exp and Local, but they occasionally appeard on the #14 Broadway Bklyn Local, #16 14th St. Local, and #10 Myrtle-Chambers -- pop quiz: what are the letters for these routes?). With the opening of the Christie St. tunnel in 1967 the R16s and R27/30s were pooled together (often mixed in the same trains) and bore letters on their roll signs (I don't know if new signs were installed or the old ones were modified). I remember them being used on the QJ and RR at that time. There were some differences in the roll signs on the R27/30 and those on the R32s (1964). The R27/30 roll signs still had the old BMT names for the routes (at least for the Southern division); for example: N: Broadway Sea Beach Exp. while those on the R32s left off the old names: N: Broadway Exp. Another interesting note. In 1967-68, right after the opeining of the Christie St. tunnel, the B train was assigned R32s and pre-war R units. The pre-war R's had the 'B' designation on their roll signs, but the R32s didn't. Solution - paste a single 'B' (black on white background) over the 'BB' (white on black backgound) on the existing roll signs.
    - Subject: Re: Take the "P" train:Speaking of roll signs...
    - Message Number: 758589
    - Posted by: Charles Fiori
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:48 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Take the "P" train:Speaking of roll signs... posted by David Pirmann on October 22, 1997 at 08:33:20: The R32s were delivered with lettered roll signs. The ample number of photos available of the cars being manufactured and delivered show this. I think any R32 with a numbered route sign was a mock-up of some sort. I have a picture of a R 1/9 at Coney Island Open House with a 4-Sea Beach sign on the front, so you can see that sort of thing happening. Bored car maintainers, I guess!! A picture is also available of an R-11 running on the West End Line in 1967 sporting a "3-West End" sign.
      - Subject: Re: Take the "P" train:Speaking of roll signs...
      - Message Number: 758672
      - Posted by: NO NUMBERS
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:53 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Take the "P" train:Speaking of roll signs... posted by Ed Sachs on October 22, 1997 at 09:03:19: Your Pop Quiz: #15=Jamaica Express=QJ #14=Broadway-Brooklyn Local=JJ #16=14th Street-Canarsie Local=LL #10=Myrtle Avenue-Chambers Street=M

Thread title: HO Scale NYC Subway Layout (758577)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:38 1997, by Jim Tesoriero

Subject: HO Scale NYC Subway Layout
Message Number: 758577
Posted by: Jim Tesoriero
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:38 1997

Is there anyone out there that knows of an HO Scale NYC Subway Layout in existence, or is there anyone out there interested in building one from scratch. I'm talking with some friends about modeling the Brighton Line from Prospect Park (open cut) to Brighton Beach (raised embankment/4 track elevated.)
- Subject: Re: HO Scale NYC Subway Layout
- Message Number: 758582
- Posted by: Frank Gatazka
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:42 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]HO Scale NYC Subway Layout posted by Jim Tesoriero on October 21, 1997 at 21:31:32: I am currently modeling the NYCTA in HO scale. My "layout" consists of eight 2'X4' modules and currently includes sixteen feet of scratchbuilt elevated based on Third Avenue (Bronx) and Astoria Line prototype. Currently there are two stations, a local station based loosely on the "Swiss Chalet" style of the Third Avenue El (Manhattan) and a terminal station based on the Dual Contracts terminal at Ditmars Blvd. Rolling stock consists of brass imports that I have detailed and painted as well as available epoxy and styrene kits that have been assembled, detailed and painted. Currently, there are thirty two revenue cars in operation including BMT Standards, Low-V's, R1-9's, R-10's, R-15's, R-17, R21/22, R26 and R29's. Work equipment consists of IND Drill Motor 41, several flats, a crane, and Work Motor 20235 (ex Low-V). The El is equipped with scale signals (non working) and other trackside details including trippers, relay boxes, etc. The period I'm modeling includes the late fifties to 1970. I have displayed modules from the layout at various shows in the past including the Coney Island Open House. You can see photographs of my local station and a few cars at Mr. Pat Villani's web site (www.iop.com/~patv/railroad.html). Mr. Villani is also modeling the NYCTA and is currently involved in producing castings from scratchbuilt patterns for his El structure. The details are contained in the web site. When one talks about models of the NY subway/elevated, the discussion must ALWAYS include reference to the seminal work of the "guru" himself, Joe Frank, now of Philadelphia, PA. Joe has built an extensive HO scale layout back in the seventies and early eighties that is still extant, but his fame is really tied to the AWESOME O scale layout that is currently in operation. Within Mr. Villani's web site is a list of References that I have put together for the modeler that includes various articles on Mr. Frank's models. These are MUST reading for anyone involved in modeling the NY subway/elevated. Good Luck!
  - Subject: Re: HO Scale NYC Subway Layout
  - Message Number: 758590
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:49 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: HO Scale NYC Subway Layout posted by Frank Gatazka on October 22, 1997 at 07:45:24: I believe it must be your Victorian Station I recall seeing on Pat Villani's site. I was VERY impressed by how it captured the look and feel without being an exact replica. To me, that is where the art comes into model railroading; making it look right without subjecting yourself to the slings and arrows of scale ruler wielding critics. You certainly have done that well. Congradulations!

Thread title: Re: Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes (758579)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:40 1997, by Michael Berson

Subject: Re: Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes
Message Number: 758579
Posted by: Michael Berson
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:40 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes posted by Charles Fiori on October 17, 1997 at 13:23:20: From what I remember, the beginning of Welcome Back Kotter showed R-32's while the end showed an R-42 with the BLUE STRIPE!! Both were B trains. The R-32 had the white letter B in the Black Circle on the front-top of the train. The R-42 had the BIG letter B on the front-side. The R-42 also had the long windows in the side doors and the oblong window in the front door. (The R-42 front windows were longer than the R-32's but smaller than the original R-40's.) Really do miss the old R-42's with the blue stripe, big sign and larger window doors. The rebuilds are too plain looking.
- Subject: Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes
- Message Number: 758705
- Posted by: Timothy
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:19 1997
  
  I know I've posted a message on this subject before, but can anyone give me a list of movies that feature a lot of subway/elevated footage? I prefer action films, with car chases, police activity, etc., but with little or no graphic bloody violence (a little "gun play" is o.k.), a la "Streets Of Fire". I'm also into music (rock) videos that have subway/elevated footage. I'm hoping to start a collection of movies and videos that feature subway and elevated scenes.
  - Subject: Re: Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes
  - Message Number: 758770
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:10 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes posted by Timothy on October 17, 1997 at 10:29:36: I happened to see a Stones Video last night, called something like Looking for my Baby, or Have you seen my Baby.It had a shot of getting onto the Times Square Shuttle. I noticed it, because the train was populated when the doors opened, and nobody got off. Definitely unprotypical behavior for shuttle operations!
    - Subject: Re: Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes
    - Message Number: 758823
    - Posted by: Lou from Middletown
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:52 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes posted by Timothy on October 17, 1997 at 10:29:36: Check out below under "Its Another Poll Time!" There are many excellent suggestions under the various postings!!
      - Subject: Re: Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes
      - Message Number: 758866
      - Posted by: Charles Fiori
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:26 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes posted by Timothy on October 17, 1997 at 10:29:36: Don't forget the opening of 'Welcome Back, Kotter.' Also, Colin Quinn, the comedian, did a video some years back where many scenes were on the West End Line. [If anyone has this video, pls e-mail me @ oldschool58@yahoo.com. Thanks.] I'd add the opening of 'NYPD Blue,' as well as the opening of 'Night Court'.
        
        Subject: Re: Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes
        Message Number: 759077
        Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:12 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes posted by Timothy on October 17, 1997 at 10:29:36: Two movies come to mind - (1) the unforgettable scenes (also shot on The BMT West End Line (as was the opening scene in TV's "Welcome Back Kotter"). The movie was "The French Connection", that had shots of_ Gene Hackman, as a policeman, chasing a train on the el over 86th St. and New Utrecht Ave., from Bay 50th St. to 62nd St. Stations, with a dead motorman in control, ending in the 'collision' with another train at 62nd St. (2) Scenes in "The Taking of Pelham One Two Three" that invoved IRT subway scenes shot somehere.
        
        Subject: Re: Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes
        Message Number: 759085
        Posted by: Frank Gatazka
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes posted by Timothy on October 17, 1997 at 10:29:36: You might check the archives. There was a string a while back that had quite a few movies listed. Some of my personal favorites include: "The Incident" (Third Avenue El in the Bronx with 39 Worlds Fair Cars and Low-V's); "The Wrong Man" (Henry Fonda in an R-9, the Corona Line with R-15's, Antony Quaile in his la office and the Roosevelt Ave. El); "The Lost Weekend" (Ray Milland under the Third Avenue El in Manhattan looking to hock his typewriter); "The House on Carrol Street" (Liberty Avenue El and R-10's as well as great scenes in the Grand Central Station tunnels); "The Taking of Pelham One-Two-Three" (of course, but can you find the subway car 7339 on the opposite platform when it's supposed to be in the tunnel held by the gunmen?); "The French Connection" (yes, great scenes on the West End, but also check out the game of chicken between Gene Hackman and Fernando Rey at the Grand Central Shuttle. R-17 6609 is now in the Transit Museum); "The Little Fugitive" (BMT Standards at Stillwell Avenue); "The Bachelor Party" (BMT Standards on the 14th Street Canarsie Line).
        
        Subject: Re: Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes
        Message Number: 759088
        Posted by: John M.
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes posted by Timothy on October 17, 1997 at 10:29:36: A few additional movies and videos - "Carlito's Way," a 1993 Al Pacino flick set in the 1970's - chase through an elevated train and Grand Central. (This may be a politically incorrect choice, as I think the moovie production company caused some damage to the 4th Avenue "F" and "n/R" station.) I think Michael Jackson's "Beat It" video was filmed in the middle of one of the multi-level stations (like the West 4th Street Station). Of course, the original "King Kong" included a depiction of a Manhattan "el" train. A very funny independent flick called "Hangin' With the Homeboys" had its first scene in an IRT subway car. Its by no means an action flick, but the beginning of "My Dinner With Andre" shows Wallace Shawn in a graffiti-scarred subway car. Oh, and don't forget "The Warriors" - lots of subway footage (and David Patrick Kelly's famous whine - "Come Out To PLay?????) A very funny independent flick called "Hangin' With the Homeboys" has its first scene in an IRT subway car. Its by noo means an action movie, but the beginning of "My Dinner With Andre" shows Wallace Shawn riding a graffiti-scarred subway car. There was also some awful Barbra Stresand comedy vehicle made in the early '70's that shows her riding the subway chasing a goat, I think - can anyone remember the name of this one?
        
        Subject: Re: Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes
        Message Number: 759089
        Posted by: John M.
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes posted by Timothy on October 17, 1997 at 10:29:36: Here are a few additional movies Forgive me if this shows up twic on the bulletin board: The Al Pacino flick "Carlito's Way," released in 1993 but set in the 1970's, has a chase scene through an elevated train which continues into Grand Central. (This may be a politically incorrect choice, as I think the movie production company caused some damage to the 4th Avenue "F" and "N/R" lines.) The original "King Kong" depicted an elevated train. "The Warriors" had lots of subway footage (and David Patrick Kelly's famous whine "Warriors, Come out to Playyy???) I also like "Beneath the Planet of the Apes" for its post-doomsday depiction of the subway. Also the line, "the only good human is a dead human!" (Believe it or not, this was actually a pretty violent flick.) A very funny independent flick, "Hangin'With the Homeboys" had its first scene in an IRT subway car. By no means an action flick, but the beginning of "My Dinner With Andre" showed Wallace Shawn in a graffiti-scarred subway car. Michael Jackson's "Beat It" video I believe was shot on the mid-level of one of the multi-level stations (like West 4th Street). I also saw on TV last month part of some awful Barbra Streisand comedy vehicle where she was chasing a goat through the subway. I don't know the nameof the movie.
        
        Subject: Re: Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes
        Message Number: 759093
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Movies With Subway/Elevated Scenes posted by Timothy on October 17, 1997 at 10:29:36: The music video for the song "Don't Want to Fall in Love" by Jane Child has scenes that take place in the last car of either an R-32 or an R-36 while the train is moving. I happened to have been channel surfing a few years back when this song came out and saw the subway in the video. Needlesstosay I watched the remainder of the video! --Mark

Thread title: Re: Modern El Structures (758584)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:44 1997, by Nathan

Subject: Re: Modern El Structures
Message Number: 758584
Posted by: Nathan
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:44 1997

In Reply to: [5]Modern El Structures posted by Timothy on October 16, 1997 at 01:33:44: There is a small, single line (only 20miles long) el system in Vancouver, Canada that frequently runs over streets on concrete guideways, but also runs over industrial lands, parks and a suspension bridge (I sent some pictures to David Pirmann). The only propblem is that, A)nobody know where Vancouver is, and B)The system experiences saturation problems in rush hour, though during the rush trains are operated at 30 second to 2minute headways.
- Subject: Re: Modern El Structures
- Message Number: 758813
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:44 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Modern El Structures posted by Nathan on October 16, 1997 at 20:30:00: >> know where Vancouver is Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. This sounds like the automated skytrain. That suspension bridge you describe is pretty neat and I think it's all concrete, too. --Mark
  - Subject: Re: Modern El Structures
  - Message Number: 758920
  - Posted by: Nathan
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:09 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Modern El Structures posted by Mark S Feinman on October 17, 1997 at 13:02:35: Yeah, that would be the one... The suspension bridge is concrete (minus the cables), the only thing I like about the system is A)it's fast (up to 125km/h) B)the trains make a cool sound... (Maybe I need a life...)
    - Subject: Modern El Structures
    - Message Number: 759044
    - Posted by: Timothy
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:46 1997
      
      On modern rapid transit systems, such as the ones in Washington DC, Atlanta, Miami, etc., Do any of the elevated portions of those systems run directly above city streets, similar to their older counterparts in New York, Chicago, and Philadelphia? I know that the elevated structures on newer rapid transit systems are made of concrete, very much unlike the steel structures found on the older systems, but I've always wondered if the majority of them run directly above streets, over undeveloped land, or private right of way. Although my interest in els mainly focuses on the old ones, I'm thinking about photographing some of the newer el structures and stations, even though they aren't ornate, and don't have as much personality as their older counterparts.
      - Subject: Re: Modern El Structures
      - Message Number: 759052
      - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Modern El Structures posted by Timothy on October 16, 1997 at 01:33:44: I have seen the structure in Miami and it is very much above the street, however the streets are much wider than those of us from the northeast are used to. In Washington DC, most of the elevated segments are over rail yards, parking lots and the like. Gerry
        
        Subject: Re: Modern El Structures
        Message Number: 759060
        Posted by: Charles A. warren
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Modern El Structures posted by Timothy on October 16, 1997 at 01:33:44: You should see the bondoggle that was built in Jacksonville, Florida,
        
        Subject: Re: Modern El Structures
        Message Number: 759067
        Posted by: Mark Greenwald
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Modern El Structures posted by Timothy on October 16, 1997 at 01:33:44: I can speak for DC and Baltimore---In DC, the elevated portions only tend to cross over rail yards in several places, the parking lot @ RFK Stadium, but, nowhere, do they run directly above the street like in NY. Now, as for Baltimore, the elevated portion runs directly parrallel to Wabash Avenue but not above it. As for the light rail though (in Baltimore), the only real elevated structure is the bridge over the Patapsco River and a small portion through old industrial areas in south Baltimore.
        
        Subject: Re: Modern El Structures
        Message Number: 759069
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Modern El Structures posted by Gerry O'Regan on October 16, 1997 at 10:08:44: BART runs in several Oakland streets. The Seattle Monorail runs in the middle of 5th Avenue, but is a relatively unobtrusive structure even though it is concrete. However, the single line of columns, about 18" square, are a shock to drive along as they have no protection around them, and some drivers change lanes between them!
        
        Subject: Re: Modern El Structures
        Message Number: 759072
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Modern El Structures posted by Nathan on October 17, 1997 at 18:11:53: The Vancouver photos that Nathan sent me are now at [7]http://www.nycsubway.org/vancouver/ and I apoligize to Nathan for the delay in posting them. I scanned them ages ago. --Dave
        
        Subject: Re: Modern El Structures
        Message Number: 759074
        Posted by: Nathan
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Modern El Structures posted by David Pirmann on October 19, 1997 at 00:23:58: Yeah, no prob. If I get a chance I'll get a photo of the el structure, and an el station.

Thread title: Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS/Bus Stop Que (758587)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:46 1997, by Wayne Johnson

Subject: Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS/Bus Stop Que
Message Number: 758587
Posted by: Wayne Johnson
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:46 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: STAND TO THE RIGHT ON ESCALATORS posted by John on October 21, 1997 at 21:56:15: In the northern part of the Bronx (North of Fordham Rd.) on routes such as the Bx10, Bx20, Bx34 and Westchester routes you will see people line up to board the bus. This also happens at many locations in Queens such as Union Turnpike/Queens Blvd in Kew Gardens, 179th Street-Hillside Ave in Jamaica and Roosevelt Ave-Main Street in Flushing. There are numerous NYCTA, MSBA (now LI Bus) and Private DOT routes that serve Roosevelt/Main and 179/Hillside and there are often lines of people waiting for buses. This just to name a few as there are others also. I've always hoped that it would catch on in other areas also.

Thread title: Frigginfragginbleepin Immigrant map revisited (758592)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:50 1997, by Sherman Cheung

Subject: Frigginfragginbleepin Immigrant map revisited
Message Number: 758592
Posted by: Sherman Cheung
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:50 1997

I'm Sorry, I get this way whenever a new subway map Change comes out and i can't get the good ones (you know the ones), so I get into a screw the immigrants syndrome and start my tirade on them, now, i'm no immigrant i was born in South bend Indiana, been thru alot of racist crap have lived thru it and gained a thick skin but my love is the NYC subway map and it hurts me to see it become like this can't the "Immigrant and Route maps" live happily side by side on a map rack? Why do i have to be accosted on all sides by these friggin "immigrant" maps Sherman
- Subject: Re: Frigginfragginbleepin Immigrant map revisited
- Message Number: 758598
- Posted by: Map Man
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:55 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Frigginfragginbleepin Immigrant map revisited posted by Sherman Cheung on October 22, 1997 at 13:11:25: As Sgt. Hulka said in 'Stripes', "Lighten up, Francis." We all seem to be purists of one ilk or another, but most of us also have lives. Let's reflect upon that gorgeous mosaic that mayor Dinkins hoped for.... I'm going to pretend your not really as worked up as your messages seem to imply...

Thread title: Re: MTA Museum Gift Shop Web Page? Memorabilia... (758593)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:51 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Re: MTA Museum Gift Shop Web Page? Memorabilia...
Message Number: 758593
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:51 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: MTA Museum Gift Shop Web Page? Memorabilia... posted by Fitz on October 19, 1997 at 08:36:50: Tried your e-mail and got no reply. Try me at oldschool58@yahoo.com and read your e-m (SeaBeachX@aol.com)
- Subject: Re: MTA Museum Gift Shop Web Page? Memorabilia...
- Message Number: 759048
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:49 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: MTA Museum Gift Shop Web Page? posted by Julio Perez on October 16, 1997 at 07:13:08: Anyone interested in destination signs?? Not the boxes, just the curtains.
  - Subject: Re: MTA Museum Gift Shop Web Page? Memorabilia...
  - Message Number: 759075
  - Posted by: Fitz
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:10 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: MTA Museum Gift Shop Web Page? Memorabilia... posted by Charles Fiori on October 16, 1997 at 07:45:16: Yes! Do you have any of the original R-27/30 side routes with both the letters AND BMT route names? If so, please E Mail Sea Beach X @ AOL. Thank you.
    - Subject: Re: MTA Museum Gift Shop Web Page? Memorabilia...
    - Message Number: 759076
    - Posted by: Fitz
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:11 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: MTA Museum Gift Shop Web Page? Memorabilia... posted by Charles Fiori on October 16, 1997 at 07:45:16: Yes! Do you have any of the original R-27/30 side routes with both the letters AND BMT route names? If so, please E Mail Sea Beach X @ AOL. Thank you.

Thread title: Re: Ex-CTA 6000s on SEPTA's Norristown High-Speed Line (758595)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:53 1997, by Bobw

Subject: Re: Ex-CTA 6000s on SEPTA's Norristown High-Speed Line
Message Number: 758595
Posted by: Bobw
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:53 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Ex-CTA 6000s on SEPTA's Norristown High-Speed Line posted by aaron on October 14, 1997 at 13:09:04: The numbers were as follows: SEPTA: 476-489 CTA: 6069-70, 6175-76, 6079-80, 6089-90, 6139-40, 6151-52, 6161-62 All were married pairs. 484-85 (ex 6139-40) retained the CTA red/blue stripe scheme for quite a while during its stay on the P & W and may not have ever been repainted into the SEPTA scheme. 480-81 (ex 6079-80) operated for a number of months in the CTA green and retained its CTA numbers during this period. I did not see any of these cars on a visit to the line in early June and I suspect they have been scrapped.
- Subject: Re: Ex-CTA 6000s on SEPTA's Norristown High-Speed Line
- Message Number: 758634
- Posted by: Joe-M
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:23 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Ex-CTA 6000s on SEPTA's Norristown High-Speed Line posted by Michael S. Buglak on October 17, 1997 at 13:21:24: If you look in the picture of the car interior on the Kenosha PCC pages you can see the excta6000 ex septa norristown cars out of the righ windows they are together for a bit
  - Subject: Re: Ex-CTA 6000s on SEPTA's Norristown High-Speed Line
  - Message Number: 758844
  - Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:08 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Ex-CTA 6000s on SEPTA's Norristown High-Speed Line posted by Bobw on October 16, 1997 at 20:38:23: Cars 484-485 were never repainted into SEPTA colors & ran in CTA colors until retired. (Indeed, the CTA #'s were showing through the paint in the end doors near the end!) All of the others were repainted in 1987, but they did operate for a time in CTA colors (& numbers) earlier. SEPTA still retains Cars 480-1 @ 69th Street for a work train. All of the others were sold to either VESCO in Windber, PA for possible resale later, except for one pair (482-83?) which was sold to the Middletown & Hummelstown Railroad in central PA for possibile future use as a tourist operation-Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
    - Subject: Re: Ex-CTA 6000s on SEPTA's Norristown High-Speed Line
    - Message Number: 758855
    - Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:18 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Ex-CTA 6000s on SEPTA's Norristown High-Speed Line posted by Bobw on October 16, 1997 at 20:38:23: Cars 484-485 were never repainted into SEPTA colors & ran in CTA colors until retired. (Indeed, the CTA #'s were showing through the paint in the end doors near the end!) All of the others were repainted in 1987, but they did operate for a time in CTA colors (& numbers) earlier. SEPTA still retains Cars 480-1 @ 69th Street for a work train. All of the others were sold to either VESCO in Windber, PA for possible resale later, except for one pair (482-83?) which was sold to the Middletown & Hummelstown Railroad in central PA for possibile future use as a tourist operation-Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
      - Subject: Ex-CTA 6000s on SEPTA's Norristown High-Speed Line
      - Message Number: 758972
      - Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:49 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC subway cars (Chicago cars) operating in other areas posted by Ed Sachs on October 10, 1997 at 08:52:45: I rode those ex-CTA 6000s as a daily commuter on the Norristown High-Speed Line ("The P&W") from 1988 until SEPTA retired them in the spring of 1994. (SEPTA renumbered the cars into the 476-489 series, & repainted all but one pair into SEPTA colors.) They were operated with a 2-man crew (SEPTA installed a farebox in each end of each pair near the 2nd set of doors counting from front of operating end of car). The PCC motors & trucks sounded just like an old WW2 bomber on the rough P&W trackage! Also, they had a fantastic railfan seat! To this day, I feel that the $250.00 that SEPTA spent to buy each of these 6000s from the CTA was the best money SEPTA ever spent! Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
        
        Subject: Re: Ex-CTA 6000s on SEPTA's Norristown High-Speed Line
        Message Number: 759019
        Posted by: aaron
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:26 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Ex-CTA 6000s on SEPTA's Norristown High-Speed Line posted by Michael S. Buglak on October 10, 1997 at 17:09:15: What were the old CTA car numbers of those units?

Thread title: Re: It's Another Poll Time! (758600)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:57 1997, by Bob Sklar

Subject: Re: It's Another Poll Time!
Message Number: 758600
Posted by: Bob Sklar
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:57 1997

In Reply to: [6]It's Another Poll Time! posted by Lou from Middletown on October 10, 1997 at 13:59:37: I can think of more than a few worsts, mainly from the standpoint of technical inaccuracies! 1. One of the "Planet of the Apes" movies - the famous underground Queensborough Plaza station. 2. The "I Love Lucy" loving-cup episode - in which an IND R1-9 unit with IRT Lexington Av. signs pulls in and out of either Court St. IND or the lower level of 42nd St-8th Av which has been successively renamed Astor Pl. and Bleecker St. The above is combined with stock footage of various lines and divisions, including a newer (for early 1950's) IRT car with a backwards "7" on the front! Also, I rather doubt that a Lexington Av. local ever ran to Flatbush Av. during rush hours in those days! 3. An episode of "All in the Family" in which Archie and Mike were coming home from Manhattan, riding a train with three destination signs (Times Sq, Main St, and I forget what else), all without roller knobs. Also, the train was obviously IND/BMT, as it had seats facing both forwards and towards the center! 4. A move a few years back starring Whoopie Goldberg ("Ghost", I think), where a passenger is shown coming out of the (1,9) tunnel at Dyckman St, and then gets off at, I believe, Hewes St (J,M,Z). If I can think up anymore, I'll post them. Bob Sklar
- Subject: Re: It's Another Poll Time!
- Message Number: 758601
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:58 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: It's Another Poll Time! posted by Bob Sklar on October 22, 1997 at 16:54:19: Well, speaking of TV shows, last night's repeat of Law & Order on A&E was about a subway vigilante. It started with scenes of her getting off an R-32, then the front end of an R-38 was shown (with the NYCTS logo). Some scenes of the train passing by looked like an R-62, then at Columbus Circle, there's an overhead shot of an R-40 A train (yup! when were R-40's last on the A?) pulling away on the northbound express. Then, the shooting occurs on the train, and Logan and Greevey show up and the camera pan looks like an R-62 again, but then there's a closeup of the door, and we're back to R-32.... Then there was the L&O episode about a shooter who disposed of a gun in the subway and a maint. worker finds it. The plot clearly stated that the shooter disposed of the gun while on the J train near Chambers, but when they go to interview the guy who found it they show up at the World Trade Center PATH station, platform #1, which is normally not used for passengers. NYPD Blue has some subway scenes, but mostly just quick pans for a look at the "gritty city". Especially back in season one where Det. Kelly and Det. Licalsi lived in Queens near the #7. Also, have you ever noticed in NYPD Blue the steel-wheel-squeal sound effect added at various times? Most of the time they're in Manhattan with no elevated trains and the squeal is usually a bit harder to hear...
  - Subject: Re: It's Another Poll Time!
  - Message Number: 758616
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:09 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: It's Another Poll Time! posted by Fernando Perez on October 11, 1997 at 00:14:22: Two flaws in those scenes you mentionde from the "French Connection. First, the Grand Central Scene. The Conductor buzzes the motorman twice to proceed before the doors are closed. Second was the west end line scene. At 25th Ave, the train is on the Northbound local tracks and yet one station later it's on the (center) express track.
    - Subject: It's Another Poll Time!
    - Message Number: 758969
    - Posted by: Lou from Middletown
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:46 1997
      
      Here's a good survey that I haven't seen on here yet: What is your favorite motion picture/TV show with the NYC Subway as star/supporting player?? And what is your least favorite and why?? My nomination for best is probably "The Taking of Pelham 123" even with all its loopholes (you really think that they would leave all the emergency exits uncovered?) it still (theres no ther way to put it ) SMELLS right as far as operations,etc are protrayed. My nomination for worst has to be "Money Train"- just the oppisite- a smell to it that just doesn't go away! I also have a soft place in my heart for the I Love Lucy where she rides the IRT with a loving cup on her head-how many would notice?!?
      - Subject: Re: It's Another Poll Time!
      - Message Number: 758971
      - Posted by: Charles Fiori
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:48 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]It's Another Poll Time! posted by Lou from Middletown on October 10, 1997 at 13:59:37: Don't forget PJ (1968) with George Peppard. French Connection shouldn't be left out, also. When I worked at the TA, I was told that the makers of the movie could have had more authentic period subway equipment rattling along the West End Line, but did not want it. Also, Nighthawks with Sylvester Stallone and Rutger Hauer--included Hoyt-Schermerhorn morphing into 42 St--morphing into the 63d Street tunnel. Hotages on the Tramway in that one!!
        
        Subject: Re: It's Another Poll Time!
        Message Number: 758975
        Posted by: Charlie Bonaire
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]It's Another Poll Time! posted by Lou from Middletown on October 10, 1997 at 13:59:37: I agree with "Pelham." (BTW, if a "TV" sub-category is added, I'd nominate that Seinfeld episode where they all take the subway.)
        
        Subject: Re: It's Another Poll Time!
        Message Number: 758978
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:53 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: It's Another Poll Time! posted by Charlie Bonaire on October 10, 1997 at 21:10:53: I'd nominate the Sesame Street episode where all the muppets sing "On the subway....." I don't remember exactly how it goes but basically it's muppets riding a subway car.. :)
        
        Subject: Re: It's Another Poll Time!
        Message Number: 758979
        Posted by: John
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: It's Another Poll Time! posted by Charlie Bonaire on October 10, 1997 at 21:10:53: That was a good episode, and the set is pretty good, even if not detailed to the point. The set is like a combination R-62, R-68, (orange-yellow seats, silver walls), R-32s (doors), and R-16s (seating plan).
        
        Subject: Re: It's Another Poll Time!
        Message Number: 758980
        Posted by: Fernando Perez
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:55 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: It's Another Poll Time! posted by Charles Fiori on October 10, 1997 at 15:44:15: My favorite subway moments in the movies are the ones in the French Connection. The Grand Central Shuttle scene is so realistic with people running about to where they have to go. Also the West End chase scene, probably one of the best car chase scenes in movie history brings back memories for me, visiting family in Brooklyn I use to ride the Brooklyn subways all the time. Being shot in winter with the early afternoon sunsets was very nostalgic for me. All time best of course is the Pelham ONe two three! From the witty New York sarcasm to humourous moments, and a great book too!
        
        Subject: Re: It's Another Poll Time!
        Message Number: 758982
        Posted by: charlie muller jr.
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:56 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: It's Another Poll Time! posted by Fernando Perez on October 11, 1997 at 00:14:22: don't forget the tv movie starring james brolin of dr marcus welby fame called ``a short walk to daylight'' when a quake hits nyc and a group of people are trapped in the subway and finally get out. this movie was on ted turner's tbs movie station. has not been on in a few years. charlie muller.
        
        Subject: Re: It's Another Poll Time!
        Message Number: 758983
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]It's Another Poll Time! posted by Lou from Middletown on October 10, 1997 at 13:59:37: I guess Pelham 1-2-3 would win - hands down but in the TV catagory, my favorite is the "Mad About You" episode where Paul and Jamie man a token booth when one of Paul's former schoolmates bugs out.
        
        Subject: Re: It's Another Poll Time!
        Message Number: 758985
        Posted by: charlie muller
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: It's Another Poll Time! posted by charlie muller jr. on October 11, 1997 at 00:27:05: another movie co-starring the nyc subway is a movie called ``the warriors'' it came out in the late 1970's. it's about a gang from coney island going to a meeting in the bronx at van cortlandt park via the # 2 or 5 train. the largest gangs leader is killed. warriors are blamed, and have to bop there way back to the amusement park in coney island, their home turf, via the subway. they go through woodlawn cemetery to get back to the train. also the irt 96th st station #1 broadway line is there. a lot of the graffiti on the old irt trains of the 70's and 80's. also trains going the wrong way on tracks, i.e. trains going northbound on the southbound track.
        
        Subject: Re: It's Another Poll Time!
        Message Number: 759016
        Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]It's Another Poll Time! posted by Lou from Middletown on October 10, 1997 at 13:59:37: A rather interesting scene from the movie "Ghost" features the lead meeting another phantom in the subway. I don't know how much was filmed in the subway but there were some great special effects as the ghosts fought and a train passed through them. Later the lead returns, and confronts his previous adversary (a typical NYC tough) and learns from him the secrets of how a ghost can manipulate objects. The later scene is played out on a platform. Not a lot of subway action but interesting... Gerry
        
        Subject: Re: It's Another Poll Time!
        Message Number: 759056
        Posted by: John F
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:55 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]It's Another Poll Time! posted by Lou from Middletown on October 10, 1997 at 13:59:37: While "The Taking of Pelham 1,2,3" is a nice film, most people seem to have overlooked Walter Hill's masterpiece, "The Warriors." Even though most stations are Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Hollywood geography is employed in a two-minute scamper from the 72nd St. IRT to Union Square, the subway is an integral part of this movie, which begins in the northernmost reaches of The Bronx and ends up at Stillwell Ave.
        
        Subject: Re: It's Another Poll Time!
        Message Number: 759091
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]It's Another Poll Time! posted by Lou from Middletown on October 10, 1997 at 13:59:37: I'm going to have to read these posts more carefully! Here you kindly warn us that "Money Train" sucks, and I go and watch it on HBO last night, expecting a treat. At least I figured out that it had no socially redeeming value as soon as I saw the ridiculous "Big Board" behind the equally ridiculous "Boss".

Thread title: Washington DC Metro (758602)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:58 1997, by BJ

Subject: Washington DC Metro
Message Number: 758602
Posted by: BJ
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:58 1997

I had a few questions on the Washington DC Metro. I'm from Chicago not the NYC area and have never ridden the DC Metro. I understand that most hotels are near Metro Stations and not many are in the downtown area, so you get the oppertunity to ride the Metro to downtown daily to downtown when visisting, is this true? I also have heard that this is the only other high speed rapid transit system in the US besides BART? ( BART is Awesomee!) What would be the best line to ride if I only had one oppertunity for a long trip for fun? I'm going with other people and they aren't subway fans, so they come along, but usually limit me to one long transit ride wherever we go. Finally, do any of the lines go throught bad areas and are any of the lines portions bad enough to aviod? Thanks in advance!
- Subject: Re: Washington DC Metro
- Message Number: 758606
- Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:01 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Washington DC Metro posted by BJ on October 22, 1997 at 18:25:50: I know there's a HoJo's accross from the Watergate hotel (yes, THAT Watergate). It's right near Foggy Bottom. Besides that, I don't know. Bart and WMATA being the only High Speed systems?? I wouldnm't go that far. Septa Broad Street (?) trains do over 50 in the tunnels, and the LIRR does 80 at points, Metro North 90, and i've seen Septa Trenton bound trains hit 95+, althopugh those 3 aren't really "rapid transit" systems. PATCO ghoes pretty fast too..
  - Subject: Re: Washington DC Metro
  - Message Number: 758607
  - Posted by: Bobw
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:02 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Washington DC Metro posted by Philip Nasadowski on October 22, 1997 at 19:53:00: There are plenty of hotels both downtown and at outlying points that are close to Metro. Silver Spring, New Carrollton, the Bethesda area and Rosslyn are quite close to Metro and several hotels offer free shuttles between the hotels and Metro. Check with AAA on particulars. The system is quite security conscious and riding the trains is quite safe. While there are some stations in "bad" areas, the stations themselves are patrolled and watched by closed-circuit TV. I have noticed on occasion groups of loud teens on trains but generally they seem to be only interested in making a rucus and moving on more than anything else. My favorite ride is the eastern leg of the Red Line beyond Union Station, where the line runs outside and stations are spaced somewhat far apart, thus speed can be high. The Blue Line below National Airport is similarly interesting. The system is compact enough that it can be completely travelled in the space of a single day if this is desired.
    - Subject: Re: Washington DC Metro
    - Message Number: 758615
    - Posted by: Lou
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:08 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Washington DC Metro posted by Bobw on October 22, 1997 at 20:43:33: There is even a Embassy Suites with a Metro entrance in it's atrium lobby. All the hotels at Crystal City too (Sheraton and Hilton and hmm forget).
      - Subject: Re: Washington DC Metro
      - Message Number: 758618
      - Posted by: Mark Greenwald
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:10 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Washington DC Metro posted by BJ on October 22, 1997 at 18:25:50: Being born & raised in the Baltimore/Washington area, I've grown very familiar with both systems. As for high-speed transit systems--Baltimore & Atlanta also have systems built pretty much in the same era as DC & San Fran. When it comes to hotels, granted, most are in the suburbs and are easily accesible to Metro stations but there are many encircling the downtown area, for example, The Washington Hilton (where Reagon was shot) and the Sheraton are in the the heart of "Embassy Row", (Connecticut Ave. NW.) As for a favorite line---All the lines have outdoor portions which make them all desirable, my favorite though, is the Yellow Line from L'enfent Plaza all the way to it's terminus at Huntington. You get great wiews of the sites along w/ the planes arriving & departing from Nat'l Airport, plus you get to ride into the architecturally unique Huntington station which was built into a hillside. If you have any specific questions, feel free to e-mail me.
        
        Subject: Re: Washington DC Metro
        Message Number: 758622
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Washington DC Metro posted by Bobw on October 22, 1997 at 20:43:33: I definetely second the Red Line recommendation. In addition to the other attributes, it also traverses the Union Station coach yards, giving a bonus look at NE Corridor equipment.
        
        Subject: Re: Washington DC Metro
        Message Number: 758626
        Posted by: ~airplane
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:17 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Washington DC Metro posted by Lou on October 23, 1997 at 09:28:54: All the Crystal City hotels are close to the station, but the Marriott Crystal City and Crystal Gateway hotels are the only two that are actually connected to the shops, so one can walk to the station without going outside. The Grand Hyatt downtown claims to have a direct connection to the Metro Center station, but I myself have not seen it.
        
        Subject: Re: Washington DC Metro
        Message Number: 758643
        Posted by: Mark Greenwald
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Washington DC Metro posted by ~airplane on October 23, 1997 at 17:36:41: The Marriott Metro Center at 12th & G Sts. NW does have an entrance to the Metro Center station about 20-30 ft. from a door in the lobby. Also, the Sheraton @ Woodley Park on Conn. Ave. NW has the Woodley park station right in front of it.
        
        Subject: Re: Washington DC Metro
        Message Number: 758644
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Washington DC Metro posted by ~airplane on October 23, 1997 at 17:36:41: I forget the names, but if the Grand Hyatt is the hotel that's across the street from the Convention Center, it does have a connection to the metrorail station.

Thread title: Take the P train - sooner than you think (758603)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:30:59 1997, by Steve

Subject: Take the P train - sooner than you think
Message Number: 758603
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:59 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway Line Designations===New posted by Todd Glickman on October 21, 1997 at 07:20:33: Oddly enough - if AMTRAK does go on strike, the 'P' train will appear on October 29th. It's supposed to travel along the J/Z line and over the Williamsburg Bridge. There it will switch to the 6th Ave line north. South of W4 ST. it will switch to 8th Ave to 'P'enn Station. Of course if the LIRR does continue into Penn Station, you may never be able to take a P.
- Subject: Re: Take the P train - sooner than you think
- Message Number: 758852
- Posted by: Joshua Caesar
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:15 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Take the P train - sooner than you think posted by Steve on October 22, 1997 at 19:05:49: There is always the cahnce of a weekend P train, since the LIRR won't operate into Penn Station on the weekends if there is a strike. JC
  - Subject: Re: Take the P train - sooner than you think
  - Message Number: 758861
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:22 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Take the P train - sooner than you think posted by Joshua Caesar on November 01, 1997 at 10:52:58: I doubt that you'll see the P train on the weekends because there simply would not be enough demand to justify it. The P train is scheduled to run from Parsons-Archer terminal on the J line - Non-stop to 34th St. and 8th Ave. On the weekend, since customer riding on the E line would be lighter than during the week, the E would be a faster trip into the city than the P. Same goes for the #7 from Woodside. I'm afraid that there's no way you'll be able to take a P on the weekends. (sorry but I couldn't resist)

Thread title: R-32s on the D line CORRECTION & Other stuff (758604)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:31:00 1997, by Steve

Subject: R-32s on the D line CORRECTION & Other stuff
Message Number: 758604
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:00 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: R-32's on Q/ 40's on N posted by Steve on October 17, 1997 at 21:32:47: I was incorrect (not wrong). There is one R-32 train running in D service. It's a shuttle to Prospect Park for times when the Real D train is re-routed over the B line due to construction. Had the R-32 D train not had mechanical trouble Sunday night, I might never have known. Such is life on the railroad. As for the B - C swap, here is the real honest reason for it. The A line is the only line in the system which runs more PM trains than AM trains. The C train is just the opposite. It runs 2 less in the PM. Those trains remain in Concourse Yard after AM service but the cars are needed for the A train on the PM (which comes from 207th St.) It is very costly to move those two trains from Concourse Yard to 207th St. Yard. This would be avoided if the B & C were swapped. There are maintenance considerations too but this is the real reason.

Thread title: Speed (758609)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:31:04 1997, by Bryant

Subject: Speed
Message Number: 758609
Posted by: Bryant
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:04 1997

What is the speed of express subway trains? Local subway trains?
- Subject: Re: Speed
- Message Number: 758612
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:06 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Speed posted by Bryant on October 22, 1997 at 21:02:05: Relatively speaking, the speed of an express & local train are about the same. Of course this depends on the lenght of the run, the amount of time the train is accellerating and the grade of the track. Formally, with the standard 115 HP traction motors, NYCT equipment was capable of speeds in excess of 55 MPH in "Full Field Shunting' position. However after the Williamsburg Bridge incident, ALL NYCT cars were modified so the controllers would only run to the 100% field shunting position. This reduced high end accelleration and also the top speed. Currently 40 - 45 MPH is considered a good speed.
  - Subject: Re: Speed
  - Message Number: 758613
  - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:07 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Speed posted by Steve on October 22, 1997 at 22:12:15: Ummmmm..... Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought NY subways had only 3 notches :Switching, Series, and Parallel. I know Diesels have 8, and they shunt ther fields, but I thought, NY subways had only 3....
    - Subject: Re: Speed
    - Message Number: 758621
    - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:13 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Speed posted by Philip Nasadowski on October 22, 1997 at 23:28:56: The controller which you refer to is the master controller which is the one that the operator turns. The motor controller starts off with the motors in series and full resistance, cuts out the resistance in several steps, then transitions the motors to parallel with the resistance back in, and cuts out the resistance again. Once all the resistance is out in parallel, the firld shunts are inserted to boost the running speed. This is the part which Steve says has been disabled or reduced. The master controller notches simply determine how far the motor controller goes. Switching simply prevents the controller from notching up at all, Series is motors in series with all resistance out, and parallel allows it to go all the way. Forget all this on Chopper or AC Traction equipment - that's a whole 'nother story! Hope this helps. Gerry
      - Subject: Re: Speed
      - Message Number: 758632
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:22 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Speed posted by Philip Nasadowski on October 22, 1997 at 23:28:56: You are correct about the master controller having 3 (actually 4) positions. (Don't forget the coast position) However, I was referring to the controller or group switch box which is located under the car and which determines the actual speed of the train. There you have a motor driven cam (on GE) or an air engine driven cam (on westinghouse) which first configures the motors in series and then in parallel, and then in steps, takes resistance out of the motor circuits to control the armature current and the train speed. While switching has only one position (with maximum resistance in the circuit), in series, that resistance is reduced in steps which the motorman has no control over. Same when he goes to parallel or multiple. The group switch box first changes the way the motors are connected together and then begins to step through the various resistance steps. Again, this is done by the controller logic circuits and is out of the control of the train operator.

Thread title: Brake position (758610)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:31:04 1997, by Greg

Subject: Brake position
Message Number: 758610
Posted by: Greg
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:04 1997

I notice on the brake controller, there is a brake position label "Snow Brake". What is this position used for?

Thread title: Sniow Brake (758611)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:31:05 1997, by Steve

Subject: Sniow Brake
Message Number: 758611
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:05 1997

In Reply to: [6]Brake position posted by Greg on October 22, 1997 at 21:24:36: The snow brake position is just as the name implies. When in the 'Snow Brake position, a 5 - 7 PSI (straight air) brake is applied to the brake system. This causes the brake shoes to contact the wheels. The amount of brake applied does not significantly alter the performance in power or coast positions. What it does is keep the brake and wheels warm enough to prevent snow and ice from building up on the brake shoes. The snow brake position is found on all brake valves on all regular revenue cars in the NYCT fleet except for R-44 and R-46 equipment. On those cars, the Snow Brake is elecrically applied via a switch on the Train Operators console.

Thread title: BUS LED DESTINATION READINGS (758619)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:31:11 1997, by Charles

Subject: BUS LED DESTINATION READINGS
Message Number: 758619
Posted by: Charles
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:11 1997

I know this is Subway Resources not Bus Resources I am looking for any of the Codes for the LED Destination signs for MTA NYC Department of Buses. I have Flatbush, Ulmer Park and Jackie Gleasons already, I am looking for any of the others. Please feel free to email me with them. I not doing this for anything unethical or illegal. All contributions are greatly apprieciated
- Subject: Re: BUS LED DESTINATION READINGS
- Message Number: 758624
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:15 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]BUS LED DESTINATION READINGS posted by Charles on October 23, 1997 at 12:58:29: Please share with me whatever you have. I am a destination sign collector and have a goodly sum of curtains from both buses and subways. Any idea who might be a good source for NYC bus destination sign curtains??
  - Subject: Re: BUS LED DESTINATION READINGS
  - Message Number: 758636
  - Posted by: Fernando Perez
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:25 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]BUS LED DESTINATION READINGS posted by Charles on October 23, 1997 at 12:58:29: Mother Clara Hale depot ----------------------- Bx33-3330 Pt Morris 132 St.
    - Subject: Re: BUS LED DESTINATION READINGS
    - Message Number: 758658
    - Posted by: Michael J. Follo
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:42 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]BUS LED DESTINATION READINGS posted by Charles on October 23, 1997 at 12:58:29: I would appreciate if someone would get me the Bus Led Desination Readings for both Castleton & Yukon Depots with the new X11 added along the X10 line.

Thread title: R40's on the "Q" (758620)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:31:12 1997, by Charles

Subject: R40's on the "Q"
Message Number: 758620
Posted by: Charles
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:12 1997

I have heard one theory on this, The R40's are supposedly getting door sensors as well as some light repair and replacement work being done on them. I doubt that this is a factor but on the "Q" the conductor very rarely has to go from car to car. I personally like having R68A's on the Worst End. But I would rather have them back on the Sea Beach. (more than the one train that occasionally appears). As for R32's on the "Q" I like the Idea, it adds some variety to the ride,
- Subject: Re: R40's on the "Q"
- Message Number: 758633
- Posted by: John
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:23 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]R40's on the "Q" posted by Charles on October 23, 1997 at 13:05:24: The R-40s are getting a light overhaul? Will they be getting the straps back? :-) No, really - what cosmetic changes will be made?
  - Subject: Re: R40's on the "Q"
  - Message Number: 758681
  - Posted by: jeff
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:00 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]R40's on the "Q" posted by Charles on October 23, 1997 at 13:05:24: I think the R-68A's belong back on the Q. they would not be at home anywhere else!

Thread title: NYC BUS people---please read this (758623)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:31:14 1997, by steve

Subject: NYC BUS people---please read this
Message Number: 758623
Posted by: steve
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:14 1997

http://xoom.com/ROCKAWAY I am requesting your help

Thread title: TTC speed, (was re: speed) (758625)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:31:16 1997, by Nathan

Subject: TTC speed, (was re: speed)
Message Number: 758625
Posted by: Nathan
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:16 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: Speed posted by Gerry O'Regan on October 23, 1997 at 13:06:38: Ok, I don't live in Toronto, but when I'm there I notice that the subway seems to move quite slowly... Those giant rectangular prisms seem too big and lumbering. Does anyone know the top speed those vehicles are capable of? And does anyone know the gauge? All I know is that it is wider than standard.
- Subject: Re: TTC speed, (was re: speed)
- Message Number: 758630
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:20 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]TTC speed, (was re: speed) posted by Nathan on October 23, 1997 at 16:20:37: I can't help you with the speed of the TTC as its been 15 years since I last rode the system but I have been told that they use a 5 foot gauge for their trackage.
  - Subject: Re: TTC speed, (was re: speed)
  - Message Number: 758645
  - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:32 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: TTC speed, (was re: speed) posted by Steve on October 23, 1997 at 20:07:53: TTC equipment is very similar to equipment in use elsewhere, with a top speed around 50mph. Of course anything can be speed limited slower. Track gauge is 4' 10-7/8" - unique to Toronto. Gerry
    - Subject: Re: TTC speed, (was re: speed)
    - Message Number: 758654
    - Posted by: Joe M
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:39 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]TTC speed, (was re: speed) posted by Nathan on October 23, 1997 at 16:20:37: Most of the Toronto system is 4" 10 7/8" the new subway line is standard I believe
      - Subject: Re: TTC speed, (was re: speed)
      - Message Number: 758696
      - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:12 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: TTC speed, (was re: speed) posted by Joe M on October 24, 1997 at 22:06:20: EVERYTHING on rails in Toronto is 4'10 7/8". The Yonge line was built to the streetcar guage in 1954 (using streetcar work equipment), and every other subway line was built to the Toronto guage. I believe even the Scarboro RT is 4'10 7/8".
        
        Subject: Re: TTC speed, (was re: speed)
        Message Number: 758778
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: TTC speed, (was re: speed) posted by Dan Lawrence on October 27, 1997 at 12:24:32: I checked a 1994 TTC equipment roster and the Scarboro line is standard gauge. All the rest (Streetcars and Subways) are 4' 10 7/8"

Thread title: Re: Take the "P" train-Another Bad one (758628)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:31:18 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: Re: Take the "P" train-Another Bad one
Message Number: 758628
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:18 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: Take the "P" train posted by Philip Nasadowski on October 21, 1997 at 10:11:16: Of course, something must be said about the No.2, but I won't say it.

Thread title: re: subway hackers break into electronic message sign (758635)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:31:24 1997, by charlie muller

Subject: re: subway hackers break into electronic message sign
Message Number: 758635
Posted by: charlie muller
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:24 1997

on thursday oct 23 the electronic signs telling subway riders to ``watch your step'' and ``have a great day'' were flashing messages in a manhattan station that said, ``volume fourteen, number three,'' and ``the hacker quarterly.'' a transit superintendent said the electronic signs have been invaded before and is more of a nuisance than anything else. who ever did this might be in a lot of trouble if caught. charlie muller
- Subject: Re: re: subway hackers break into electronic message sign
- Message Number: 758648
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:34 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]re: subway hackers break into electronic message sign posted by charlie muller on October 24, 1997 at 03:10:20: Hmmm ... wonder if these hackers and the folks that stole those escalators a few months back have any connection?? --Mark

Thread title: transit boom reevaluated (758637)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:31:26 1997, by charlie muller

Subject: transit boom reevaluated
Message Number: 758637
Posted by: charlie muller
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:26 1997

on page 22 of the ny daily news there is a good article of the $167 million surplus the nyc transit has. ta officials are nowing saying it is to early to draft a spending plan for the extra cash- but rider advocates say officials are just stalling. thoughts and comments folks. charlie muller
- Subject: Re: transit boom reevaluated
- Message Number: 758639
- Posted by: charlie muller
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:27 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]transit boom reevaluated posted by charlie muller on October 24, 1997 at 07:39:31: the article on page 22 of the ny daily news is firday october 24, 1997. charlie muller
  - Subject: Re: transit boom reevaluated
  - Message Number: 758647
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:34 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: transit boom reevaluated posted by charlie muller on October 24, 1997 at 07:52:04: For those of you who don't have access to the Daily News, [7] Here is the article. One thing in the article that I agree with 100% is that if NYC Transit doesn't earmark the surplus for something real soon, it will get used up for something else that does not benefit riders at all. Personally, while I think a fare rollback would be a nice politically correct thing to do, I don't think this should be done at all. Capital improvements that had to be cancelled because of reduced funds should be immediately revisited and a plan should be put in place to get these projects started. --Mark
    - Subject: Re: transit boom reevaluated
    - Message Number: 758653
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:38 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]transit boom reevaluated posted by charlie muller on October 24, 1997 at 07:39:31: While a fare rollback might be a great public relations ploy, the benifit would be minimal and within a year, another fare hike would be needed. What is needed is for that $167 million (which is likely somewhat less) is to invest it into some of the less glamorous 'capital' projects which have been shelved for far too long and which would oay huge dividends in terms of operating cost savings. If it were my decision, I'd opt to complete the Jamaica Yard expansion. The plan was to add 25 new tracks on the west side of the yard. Important savings could be realized by completing this project. Second, I would accellerate the modernization of the 19 of the 13 current maintenance shops so that equipment might be maintained more efficiently. Currently just 4 shops have any significant modernization and just 2, East NY and E. 180th Street (under construction) will be capable of handling the R-142s and R-143s.
      - Subject: Re: transit boom reevaluated
      - Message Number: 758655
      - Posted by: sammy
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: transit boom reevaluated posted by Mark S Feinman on October 24, 1997 at 12:57:24: As usual, the MTA and the unions are "doing us" riders again. This is what we need to get service to where it should be (i.e. what we pay for) 1) The second ave subway should and must be built. Not having a line to serve the "eastern" upper east side with all its commerce is inmcredibly stupid. Ever walk from east end ave to lex ave? Takes forever. Everybody benefits here from this one 2) The Rutgers/De Kalb connection 3) Airport service: taking those long, abandon tracks that split off the A line and run down woodhaven blvd and make it an airport shuttle 4) the 63rd street line (yes it should rank fourth on the list) 5) New stops on the G (before they choke the life out of the economic revival the neighborhood and Williamsburgh have been feeling). Those stops: Ash St. (at the waterfront/park and Vernon-Jackson (change to the 7) - that would allow the MTA to rid itself of 21-Van Alst, a stop not many people use. 6) Station cleanup crews: That what the inmates at Rikers are for - hard labor. and no, they shouldn't be paid. Let 'em clean stations. 7) Union productivity why should this be such a problem. If you weant to get paid for sitting around and doing nothing, well, find another place to do it. i.e. let's get something we paid for. the result of all this will allow the MTA to invest in its infrastructure, develop new lines that would serve the economic growth of this city and even moreso, result in a higher profit margin, and we hope in return, the service we hoped we'd pay for with our hard-earned tax dollars.
        
        Subject: Re: transit boom reevaluated
        Message Number: 758656
        Posted by: Subman23
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: transit boom reevaluated posted by sammy on October 25, 1997 at 05:41:46: As usual, Sammy makes some good points. I like reading his comments. The Second Avenue Subway is long overdue and a DeKalb/Rutgers Tube would be a great benefit to riders (for how much longer will the Manhattan Bridge be above the water?). One thing, Sammy : Stop being so hostile towards subway workers.
        
        Subject: Re: transit boom reevaluated
        Message Number: 758670
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: transit boom reevaluated posted by sammy on October 25, 1997 at 05:41:46: Your comments on productivity interest me because I wonder if you've ever held a job. I am by no means an apologist for the Transport Workers Union but your suggestions are archaic at best. Do you also suggest we pay firemen for the times that they are fighting fires. Maybe not even pay them for their travel time to and from the fires. Maybe we shouldn't pay doctors to wait around hospitals incase you or a family member has need of their services. If you think that transit workers have it so easy, sitting around a terminal waiting for their train or an emergency, try it some time. Then post something about it. Until then, stick to posting about things you know about like what Ernie & Burt are up to.
        
        Subject: Re: transit boom reevaluated
        Message Number: 758671
        Posted by: sammy
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: transit boom reevaluated posted by Steve on October 26, 1997 at 13:21:14: Uh, excuse me, you jerk. Not only do I have a job, but its in operations magament and productivity. Therefore, it is you who simply have no idea what you are talking about. The transit union was always a haven for featherbeading, costing taxpayers plenty. Wake up and smell the coffee, pal.
        
        Subject: Re: transit boom reevaluated
        Message Number: 758676
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:56 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: transit boom reevaluated posted by sammy on October 26, 1997 at 13:34:20: After more than 2 decades in the transit industry, I think I am more than qualified to speak on the subject. And I don't have to wake up and smell any coffee. I deal with it on a daily basis and I assure you I do know what I'm talking about. I've seen your type come and go. You come all full of Piss & Vinigar and leave with you tail between your legs when you can't deliver what you promised. While it's true that some of the TWU work rules are outdated and in need of change, most have their rules are rooted in safety. In reality, transit suffers more on the job fatalities than police or fire. All the productivity in the world does not make up for one lost employee. All of your time & motion studies not withstanding, when it comes to transit, you know not of where you speak.....
        
        Subject: Re: transit boom reevaluated
        Message Number: 758678
        Posted by: David Pirmann - Web Site Host
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: transit boom reevaluated posted by Steve on October 26, 1997 at 19:31:38: You guys wanna cut out the ad hominem stuff or should I go thru and delete it all?
        
        Subject: Re: transit boom reevaluated
        Message Number: 758683
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:01 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: transit boom reevaluated posted by David Pirmann - Web Site Host on October 26, 1997 at 20:43:50: Sorry Dave!
        
        Subject: Re: transit boom reevaluated
        Message Number: 758715
        Posted by: Sammy
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: transit boom reevaluated posted by Steve on October 26, 1997 at 21:42:29: Steve: Im pointing out a flaw in the system. Say what you want, but unions were formed because management took unfair advantage of workers. THIS IS NOT THE CASE ANY MORE!!!!!!!!! Understand this: 1) The unions more or less operate with "guaranteed" jobs. When was the last time you ever saw one worker get fired because they were rude, unproductive, lazy, etc? It never happens my friend, giving us the "guaranteed". Let these workers try it in the real world. 2) Arcane rules have made it impossible to get projects done on time and to the benefit of the tax-paying public. How else are you going to explain the lame service in Queens, the idiotic schedules and the defacto "you cant't possibly get there from here"? 3) Forbes did an expose about two years ago detailing the cost structure of the subways for riders. Does everyone know that token clerks make over $40,000 a year? That benefits push up the package to over $60,000? The Arthur Andersen study was clear in its focus. It costs the MTA an inflation-adjusted $2.50 per passenger to run a train from 179th Street to Coney Island. That should anger and rankle every tax payer in this city. That's what you'd call livin' large. All I'm saying is that for all the money we pay in hard-earned taxes, we get little back. And that's the fault of the MTA and the Unions. We, the tax-paying public, are getting screwed as always. If many of the MTA jobs were private sector, I'm positive things would be cheaper, the industry safer and much more efficient. You can take your safety rules and talk ad naseum about it, and I'm very happy many workers are safe, but I know of no other place in the world where people can and will get paid for not working to not even half their fullest potential, because they answer to no one (except baseball players, that is).
        
        Subject: Re: transit boom reevaluated
        Message Number: 758734
        Posted by: Bill
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: transit boom reevaluated posted by Sammy on October 28, 1997 at 02:43:17: Given the very real possiblity of being shot, torched, and personally responsible for accounting for thousands of dollars every day, and the view from the "office", I'm not sure I'd take the job for only $40,000 a year.
        
        Subject: Re: transit boom reevaluated
        Message Number: 758750
        Posted by: Fernando Perez
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: transit boom reevaluated posted by Sammy on October 28, 1997 at 02:43:17: Do you really think that "private industry" would run trains or buses at 2 am if no one was riding them? Or that after 7PM you may be lucky to see a bus on some lines once an hour? As a bus operator in Manhattan, I can agree that it may take a while to get fired for being rude or incompetent, but since Ive been here for about three years, I have see a few get fired. For offenses including drug use, rudeness to the public and for too many accidents and poor saftey peformance. Your typical cliches and played out like the me first 80's.
        
        Subject: Re: transit boom reevaluated
        Message Number: 758768
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: transit boom reevaluated posted by David Pirmann - Web Site Host on October 26, 1997 at 20:43:50: I had to look "Ad Hominum" up. Flaming I would have understood.

Thread title: Re: Aqueduct Station to reopen (758638)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:31:27 1997, by subway-buff

Subject: Re: Aqueduct Station to reopen
Message Number: 758638
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:27 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Aqueduct Station to reopen posted by Gary Jacobi on October 16, 1997 at 18:56:35: There are really two "Aqueduct" Stations. The station mentioned here si the "Aqueduct Racetrack" Station. This station has one platform and it is Northbound only.. While I never went there, I remember that the special Aquedcut Racetrack trains used to end there. No cross over is present since the Aqueduct/ North Conduit Avenue station is very close.
- Subject: Re: Aqueduct Station to reopen
- Message Number: 758833
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:00 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Aqueduct Station to reopen posted by Gary Jacobi on October 16, 1997 at 18:56:35: The "soon to be in use" Aqueduct Racetrack station is a side platform on the Northbound Rockaway line. There's no island platform that a southbound train can use. IIRC, there is no crossover for a southbound (Rockaway) train to use to get to the platform and then back to the southbound track. It isn't worth the delay potential to hold up a northbound A train while a southbound train changes tracks, discharges passengers and then switches back. Also, the proximity of the other Aqueduct / North Conduit Ave station on the southbound side makes this kind of crossover unrealistic. The shuttle buses to the station should suffice. --Mark
  - Subject: Re: Aqueduct Station to reopen
  - Message Number: 758877
  - Posted by: Ed Sachs
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:35 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Aqueduct Station to reopen posted by Mark S Feinman on October 17, 1997 at 13:10:55: I recall that in the early '60s, on race days during non-rush hours that the trains would in fact run single track through this stretch on the northbound track so that trains going both directions could stop at the racetrack station. This was in the days when through service to Manhattan from the Rockaways operated rush hours only, so these were 4 car shuttle trains to/from Euclid Ave.
    - Subject: Aqueduct Station to reopen
    - Message Number: 759033
    - Posted by: aaron
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:37 1997
      
      Scratch Aqueduct from the list of abandoned subway stations! The NYRA will reopen station when track opens next Wednesday 10/22. See NYRA press release on their website. www.nyra.com. The station will only accept metrocards and will not sell tokens.
      - Subject: Re: Aqueduct Station to reopen
      - Message Number: 759043
      - Posted by: Zack
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Aqueduct Station to reopen posted by aaron on October 15, 1997 at 14:01:56: Heres the article copyed with No permission at all :) AQUEDUCT TRAIN STATION REOPENS FOR "A TRAIN" CUSTOMERS When racing returns to Aqueduct on Wednesday, Oct. 22, patrons using the A Train for Manhattan-bound service can now depart the track via the Aqueduct Station that has been reopened. The Aqueduct Station is reachable by a covered ramp accessible from both the main exits of the clubhouse and grandstand and will be open from 11 a.m. to 7 p.m. every racing day. Trains are scheduled to leave the Aqueduct Station approximately every 20 minutes. Patrons departing from the Aqueduct Station must have a MetroCard as there is no clerk at this station and tokens are not accepted. MetroCards can be purchased in $6, $15 and $40 denominations from the following locations: Aqueduct's Clubhouse Information Booth and Grandstand Information Booth (until the last live race) and at the front of the Aqueduct Clubhouse (until 7 p.m.). "No matter how they do at the track, horse racing fans will be placing a winning bet when they use their MetroCards to take the subway home," said MTA New York City Transit president Lawrence G. Reuter. "We want to thank the New York City Transit Authority for reopening the Aqueduct Station," said NYRA president and chief operating officer Terry Meyocks. "We hope to continue to upgrade transportation options for our Aqueduct and Belmont Park patrons." The Aqueduct Station is only open for northbound service (towards Manhattan) from the Big A. Patrons using southbound service (from Manhattan) to arrive at Aqueduct will disembark at the North Conduit Avenue Station. For closest access to Aqueduct, use the last three cars of the train. A track shuttle bus will stop at the base of the station and bring you to the track. The northbound A Train (heading to Aqueduct from the Rockaways) will leave off arriving fans at the Aqueduct Station. Patrons using southbound trains (to the Rockaways) when leaving the Big A must use the North Conduit Avenue Station. A track shuttle bus will take you from the clubhouse bus stop to the train station.
        
        Subject: Re: Aqueduct Station to reopen
        Message Number: 759090
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:22 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Aqueduct Station to reopen posted by Zack on October 15, 1997 at 21:32:01: Can anyone explain a reason for the Northbound only service? Is there no way to cross the tracks?

Thread title: LIRR and Possible AMTRAK Strike (758640)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:31:28 1997, by Todd Glickman

Subject: LIRR and Possible AMTRAK Strike
Message Number: 758640
Posted by: Todd Glickman
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:28 1997

The LIRR has published contingency plans for the possible AMTRAK strike. Many schedule changes will occur. See: [6]What If?
- Subject: Re: LIRR and Possible AMTRAK Strike
- Message Number: 758641
- Posted by: Todd Glickman
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:29 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]LIRR and Possible AMTRAK Strike posted by Todd Glickman on October 24, 1997 at 09:11:46: By the way, here in Boston, where the MBTA contracts with AMTRAK to run the commuter rail, they say that... "LIMITED substitute bus service may be available." Yeah, that'll help.
  - Subject: Re: LIRR and Possible AMTRAK Strike
  - Message Number: 758642
  - Posted by: Todd Glickman
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:30 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR and Possible AMTRAK Strike posted by Todd Glickman on October 24, 1997 at 09:16:03: Just found the MBTA's contingency plan page. It's [7]here. You'll note, for example, that they encourage most riders of the Lowell and Haverhill branches to drive to Mishawum (Woburn) and take the private carrier shuttle buses. Well, I park at Mishawum EVERY DAY. There are at best 250 parking spaces there, and it nearly fills most days just from commuters getting on there. So they would like this lot to absorb thousands of other customers? [That's like the LIRR telling everyone on the Oyster Bay and Hempstead branches to drive to and park at Mineola!]
    - Subject: Re: LIRR and Possible AMTRAK Strike
    - Message Number: 758646
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:33 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]LIRR and Possible AMTRAK Strike posted by Todd Glickman on October 24, 1997 at 09:11:46: WCBS Newsradio 88 just reported that LIRR riders might have been lulled into a false sense of security regarding the agreement with Amtrak. They said that this agreement may still not be completely agreed to, and seemed to imply that there was still some chance that LIRR trains would not run. --Mark
      - Subject: Re: LIRR and Possible AMTRAK Strike
      - Message Number: 758651
      - Posted by: John
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: LIRR and Possible AMTRAK Strike posted by Todd Glickman on October 24, 1997 at 09:29:33: How about making your way into downtown via local busses? It may take a long time, and you may wind up taking several busses, but it could be done, right?
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR and Possible AMTRAK Strike
        Message Number: 758660
        Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR and Possible AMTRAK Strike posted by John on October 24, 1997 at 15:41:30: Possible - yes! Practical???????????????? - UGH!

Thread title: Re: Chicago L Structures (758649)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:31:35 1997, by Alan Follett

Subject: Re: Chicago L Structures
Message Number: 758649
Posted by: Alan Follett
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:35 1997

In Reply to: [6]Chicago L Structures posted by Ed Sachs on October 16, 1997 at 09:39:36: To the list of Chicago "L" lines over streets, also add the segment of the Green Line (former Jackson Park Branch) over 63rd St. About 3/4 mile of this, as far as Cottage Grove, is still in service; another 1/2 mile or so east to Dorchester was rebuilt as part of the Green Line renovation, but was never put back into operation, and is now being removed. The easternmost segment, terminating at Stony Island, was removed in the 1980's following condemnation of the bridge over the IC.
- Subject: Chicago L Structures
- Message Number: 759049
- Posted by: Ed Sachs
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:50 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Modern El Structures posted by Timothy on October 16, 1997 at 01:33:44: > On modern rapid transit systems, such as the ones in Washington DC, > Atlanta, Miami, etc., Do any of the elevated portions of those systems run > directly above city streets, similar to their older counterparts in New > York, Chicago, and Philadelphia? The elevated structures (L's) in Chicago are mostly NOT over streets (with the exception of the downtown Loop L and the Lake St Green line). The older lines are mostly through back alleys, and the newer ones are in expressway medians or along railroad rights of way.
  - Subject: Re: Chicago L Structures
  - Message Number: 759057
  - Posted by: Bob
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:56 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Chicago L Structures posted by Ed Sachs on October 16, 1997 at 09:39:36: Which Chicago EL is it that appears on the TV series ER?
    - Subject: Re: Chicago L Structures
    - Message Number: 759974
    - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
    - Date: Sun Nov 30 11:01:24 1997

Thread title: NBC Dateline Piece (758650)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:31:36 1997, by Julio Perez

Subject: NBC Dateline Piece
Message Number: 758650
Posted by: Julio Perez
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:36 1997

There is a piece on Dateline on NBC tonight, 10/17/97, at 9:00 p.m. Eastern time, discussing people falling into the NYC subway. Thought the information might be of interest to some readers...
- Subject: Re: NBC Dateline Piece
- Message Number: 759063
- Posted by: Zack
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:01 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]NBC Dateline Piece posted by Julio Perez on October 17, 1997 at 07:18:47: was that trench for water inbetween the tracks??

Thread title: Dekalb Ave. (758657)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:31:41 1997, by Steven James

Subject: Dekalb Ave.
Message Number: 758657
Posted by: Steven James
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:41 1997

I notice that there is about 4 express tracks between the island platforms at DeKalb Ave station. I saw a B train run there. I notice the B line does not stop at this station, but why are they so many tracks there?
- Subject: Re: Dekalb Ave.
- Message Number: 758659
- Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:43 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Dekalb Ave. posted by Steven James on October 25, 1997 at 19:36:09: DeKalb is a local stop. Because of the diversity of lines connecting there there are four local tracks with two island platforms. The express tracks connect directly from both sides of the Manhattan Brige to the express tracks of the 4th Av. Subway. Under more normal conditions the N train would skip DeKalb at peak hours. Coming through the Montague Tunnel, however, it is forced to make the DeKalb stop and switch to the 4th Av. express tracks afterward. Thus the old BMT's premiere train has become a long local that skips a few stops in Brooklyn. Gerry
  - Subject: Re: Dekalb Ave.
  - Message Number: 758666
  - Posted by: John
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:48 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Dekalb Ave. posted by Gerry O'Regan on October 25, 1997 at 21:43:41: I thought there were only two express tracks at DeKalb - one for each direction. Are you telling me I've been wrong all these years? Huhm.
    - Subject: Re: Dekalb Ave.
    - Message Number: 758667
    - Posted by: John
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:49 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Dekalb Ave. posted by John on October 26, 1997 at 11:28:28: Now, wait, something came to my mind as I hit the Follow-up button -- by express tracks, are you referring to the tracks at DeKalb that do not serve a platform? If that's the case, there are only two - one for each direction -- but if you are refferring to those tracks and the inner island tracks, I guess that makes four express tracks -- can somebody straighten this thing out?
      - Subject: Re: Dekalb Ave.
      - Message Number: 758668
      - Posted by: David L.
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:50 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Dekalb Ave. posted by John on October 26, 1997 at 11:32:21: There are six tracks at the Dekalb Avenue Station. Four of those tracks(the local tracks) serve the two island platforms of the Dekalb Avenue Station. The other two tracks(the express tracks) bypass the Dekalb Avenue Station. For more info, take a look at this trackmap of [6]Detail of Jay St./DeKalb Av. area
        
        Subject: Re: Dekalb Ave.
        Message Number: 758755
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Dekalb Ave. posted by Gerry O'Regan on October 25, 1997 at 21:43:41: Great description of the 'N' as the premier train of the BMT. Nostalgia comes from pulling into 57th St on a s/b RR and seeing 2 trains of R-42s on the middle tracks, with the big white 'N' on a yellow sign. Shoot, I would get off just for the express ride past 49th St., even if I was only going to TSQ or 34th Street!!
        
        Subject: Re: Dekalb Ave.
        Message Number: 759971
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:01:18 1997

Thread title: Re: transit boom reevaluated-Union Productivity (758661)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:31:44 1997, by Fernando Perez

Subject: Re: transit boom reevaluated-Union Productivity
Message Number: 758661
Posted by: Fernando Perez
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:44 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: transit boom reevaluated posted by sammy on October 25, 1997 at 05:41:46: I agree with Sammy on the union productivity issue. Lets make transit workers work 12-16 hour days and not pay them when they are between trips. Lets remove anything that may provide them with comfort as well like windows in cabs and heaters. Lets make them pay for there uniforms also. No lunch breaks is also a big money saver. If the union doesn't like it let management and vice presidents operate trains and buses and maybe we'll be lucky enough to have another Malbone St. incident. While we are destroying the unions lets next go on to the garment industry, construction and police unions.
- Subject: Re: transit boom reevaluated-Union Productivity
- Message Number: 758663
- Posted by: FRED WELLMAN
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:46 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: transit boom reevaluated-Union Productivity posted by Fernando Perez on October 26, 1997 at 00:33:34: Changing outdated work rules do not have to kill the union. The MBTA used to have the the most outragous work rules around. The issue became change the work rules or major service cut backs. A few examples were waiting at Ashmount Station at 530am in the cold for a train because the "driver" whos job was to drive the train out of the yard had not showed up. The motorman and conductors were waiting but were not allowed to walk 1000 ft and get the train. Another was during a run the 2nd conductor got sick and could not open his 2 doors. They required 2 at the time on 4 car trains. So everyone was kicked of the train to wait for the next one.

Thread title: Let's Take Another Poll! (758662)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:31:45 1997, by Adam

Subject: Let's Take Another Poll!
Message Number: 758662
Posted by: Adam
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:45 1997

What is your favorite station? What is your least favorite station? I know that everybody has a favorite station and a least favorite station from the ones that they have been to so let's hear which one it is and why. My favorite is Times Square because of the incredible complexity of the station. I just find it amazing how so many lines going in so many different directions are able to converge into one station. I find it to be a very well kept station as well, with it being very clean most of the time. Also, I always encounter a large presence of police in the station, making me feel rather safe there. My least favorite station is Fresh Pond Road on the M train. I found this station to be one of the most dingy elevated stations I have ever been to. It was falling apart, half of it was under construction that was going on for a very long period of time during which it seemed like nothing was done, it probably still is going on. It was old, and overall I thought that it was a station that hadn't seen improvements in many decades.
- Subject: Re: Let's Take Another Poll!
- Message Number: 758664
- Posted by: Charles
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:47 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Let's Take Another Poll! posted by Adam on October 26, 1997 at 01:43:24: A very interesting poll. I have to say as unusual as it sounds, I like the Brooklyn Bridge City Hall/Chambers Street Station on the 4,5,6, JM and Sometimes Z I like this station because of it's present comparison between the recently rehabilitated 4,5,6 platform and Mezzanine and the unrebuilt Chambers Street station. I also have to make one notable mention, Canal Street on the N/R looks very impressive. My least favorite, is by far the stations along the sea Beach, 20 Avenue in particular, I have a friend that lives near there, This station is deterioriated and heavly vandalized on a daily basis. Stillwell Avenue also needs some major attention.
  - Subject: Re: Let's Take Another Poll!
  - Message Number: 758673
  - Posted by: Alan Follett
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:54 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Let's Take Another Poll! posted by Adam on October 26, 1997 at 01:43:24: I imagine you conceived the question mostly in terms of New York subway stations, but let me step outside the box by nominating Belmont on the CTA North Side main. Four tracks, two island platforms, three lines, Clark Junction just north of the station, and a handy overhead transfer bridge for viewing. Plus, back when I was alive, a North Shore Line stop (am I dating myself?) Second choice, West Portal on the San Francisco Muni. Dramatic architecture, nice neighborhood, three lines (L, K, and M) emerging from the Twin Peaks Tunnel onto street trackage, underground overhead transfer bridge, separation and combination of cars at the platform, and the occasional equipment move just outside the station transferring between West Portal Avenue (K/M) and the L line.
    - Subject: Re: Let's Take Another Poll!
    - Message Number: 758674
    - Posted by: Michael Berson
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:54 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Let's Take Another Poll! posted by Adam on October 26, 1997 at 01:43:24: Coney Island-Stillwell falls into both categories. The platform area is my favorite because of the train watching. The station/terminal area is my least favorite as it needs some work.
      - Subject: Re: Let's Take Another Poll!
      - Message Number: 758685
      - Posted by: david vartanoff
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Let's Take Another Poll! posted by Adam on October 26, 1997 at 01:43:24: favorite nycta 34th & 6thfor the fun the engineers had weaving the IND through the previously built stuff. least favorite York on the F(onetime D) and in Chicago HowardSt. not only hosted North Shore when I was a teen but also gauntlet track overhead fed freight motors.
        
        Subject: Re: Let's Take Another Poll!
        Message Number: 758699
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Let's Take Another Poll! posted by Charles on October 26, 1997 at 10:58:26: 59th St-Columbus Circle has always been a favorite of mine becuase there's a lot of activity there, especially during rush hours. I also like East 180st street because you can see the shop and trains that are laid up nearby. I really don't have a particular least favorite, but it would probably a many stations along the L line because it's a two track line with only one train serving the station - which means you're not going to see a lot of trains coming through.
        
        Subject: Re: Let's Take Another Poll!
        Message Number: 758725
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:35 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Let's Take Another Poll! posted by Adam on October 26, 1997 at 01:43:24: You never forget your first love... Though it is missing much of the complexity and atmosphere of some of the other choices, my candidate has to be Main St.-Flushing. Until I was 7, we lived near there and then moved out to Whitestone. All the while, the Main St terminal was the first station where I boarded the subway. I remember being fascinated by the signs for "Next Train" and "Local/Express" and the switching which would occur when local trains would depart from M or 1 track, etc. Also, when midday 8-car trains would be coupled up to 3-car sets to make up the 11-car rush hour trains was sooooo cool. The Nedicks stand upstairs and the wooden signs hanging from the ceiling pointing commuters in the direction of long gone (and now resurrected) Q20 and Q30 terminals. The direct entrance from the lower level of Woolworth's where, after going to get shoes fixed and maybe picking up a Matchbox car in the toy department, we'd wait for one or the other parent to come home. I imagine I would not recognize the place now, but that's my favorite!
        
        Subject: Re: Let's Take Another Poll!
        Message Number: 758726
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Let's Take Another Poll! posted by Adam on October 26, 1997 at 01:43:24: My favourites are: - Coney Island / Stillwell Avenue. Elevated-train watching extraordinare! - Broadway Junction / East New York. I still think the elevated complex is amazing, even if the Fulton St EL is no longer with us. - East Tremont Ave (West Farms Sq) 2/5, from the outbound side platform. Stand in the middle and you can get nice views of redbirds snaking their way through the station, especially those running express. Stand at the front of the station and get great shots of redbirds taking the 90 degree curve and approach into East 180th St. - Parkside Ave (D) gets an honourable mention because I really like the latest rehab job NYC Transit did in the station. Least favourites: - DeKalb Ave (D, Q, M, N, R) - work was done there recently and it's still dank. - Atlantic Ave (D.Q). It always smells bad in that station. Outside of New York, I say the hands down winner is Chicago ... anywhere on the Loop. Most of those multi-level parking garages just HAD to be designed and built by railfans. There seems to be one at every strategic point that you'd want to watch trains at. Yes, even one right at Tower 18. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Let's Take Another Poll!
        Message Number: 758733
        Posted by: Bill
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Let's Take Another Poll! posted by Adam on October 26, 1997 at 01:43:24: I still can't believe you can stand at the Times Square shuttle platform at an arm's length away from the accelerating northbound #1 train with only the flimsiest little pipe railing to prevent you from leaping in front of the train... not that I'm tempted. It's very exciting.
        
        Subject: Re: Let's Take Another Poll!
        Message Number: 758736
        Posted by: Lou from Middletown
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Let's Take Another Poll! posted by Adam on October 26, 1997 at 01:43:24: In the "first love" category- Roosevelt Ave on the IND-this was the closest stop to aunt's place in J Heights when I was a kid- also 74th st-Bway on the 7: when you are a kid it was neat looking "down the hill" in the evening looking for your train. Otherwise- Stillwell's got its points as does Times Sq.- your're right about the uptown locals from the shuttle platform!
        
        Subject: Re: Let's Take Another Poll!
        Message Number: 758737
        Posted by: Michael Berson
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Let's Take Another Poll! posted by Wayne Johnson on October 27, 1997 at 12:53:17: It's true that the L from Bushwick Avenue to 8th Avenue is only a 2 track line and not very exciting. It does have, however what I think is the most "unique" station in the system. Wilson Avenue. Manhattan bound it is in a tunnel. Brooklyn bound it is above ground (running right next to the cemetary).

Thread title: Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question (758665)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:31:48 1997, by charlie muller

Subject: Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question
Message Number: 758665
Posted by: charlie muller
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:48 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question posted by Gary Jacobi on October 16, 1997 at 18:41:13: buy new subway cars. get new buses. update the public address system so we can understand the people from the towers. also put some ladies and men's rooms in the system. like tom cruise said in the movie ''jerry maguire'' said, '' show me the money.'' charlie muller.
- Subject: Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question
- Message Number: 758716
- Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:27 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question posted by charlie muller on October 17, 1997 at 07:53:15: THe rest rooms are there just not open to the public. They spent money on rebuliding the Kings Highway (D/Q) station (all 3 entrances) and the bathrooms and then lock em up to the public. (Pet Pive of mine)
  - Subject: Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question
  - Message Number: 758727
  - Posted by: Subman
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:37 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question posted by Peter Rosa on October 16, 1997 at 14:36:00: Good idea. However, the Transit Authority is not allowed by law to carry a surplus into the next fiscal year. Let us just hope that the money does not get diverted to the suburbs or to the city's budget.
    - Subject: Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question
    - Message Number: 758738
    - Posted by: Subman
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:45 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question posted by Peter Rosa on October 16, 1997 at 14:36:00: Good idea. However, the Transit Authority is not allowed by law to carry a surplus into the next fiscal year. Let us just hope that the money does not get diverted to the suburbs or to the city's budget.
      - Subject: Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question
      - Message Number: 758747
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question posted by Gary Jacobi on October 16, 1997 at 14:17:51: If the comment above makes even less sense than my usual, it is because I was trying to answer the question about modern el structures, below!
        
        Subject: Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question
        Message Number: 758802
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:35 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question posted by Peter Rosa on October 16, 1997 at 14:36:00: I guess it's raining. How about starting the line NY never expected to build using the surplus NYC Transit never expected to have - the second ave subway? Or actually start the process of the proposed DeKalb - Rutgers Tunnel? $100M is a nice start! Or providing additional service or improved headways? I'm sure people won't mind a fare rollback, either. (How about making the subway fare 5 cents on Monday October 27th for the subway's 93rd birthday?) --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question
        Message Number: 758888
        Posted by: Bob Sklar
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question posted by Mark S Feinman on October 17, 1997 at 13:00:13: the De Kalb Av-Rutgers St tunnel? I haven't heard about that one! Details?
        
        Subject: The $100 Million Dollar Question
        Message Number: 759053
        Posted by: Lou from Middletown
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:53 1997
        
        Re: the column by Dwyer in todays News- 2-to-1 the spineless politicos cut the fare before making the necessary improvements in the system! Or am I just being pessimistic??? Actually, it is nice to see that our friend the Gold Card has done its duty, and then some!!
        
        Subject: Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question
        Message Number: 759054
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]The $100 Million Dollar Question posted by Lou from Middletown on October 16, 1997 at 13:18:16: Some BART elevated follows Streets in Oakland, which they now regret because of noise and loss of light. The Seattle Monorail runs right down the center of 5th Ave between downtown and the Space Needle.
        
        Subject: Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question
        Message Number: 759055
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]The $100 Million Dollar Question posted by Lou from Middletown on October 16, 1997 at 13:18:16: I know exactly what should be done with the surplus ... as the old saying goes, save it for a rainy day!
        
        Subject: Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question
        Message Number: 759061
        Posted by: David L.
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question posted by charlie muller on October 17, 1997 at 07:53:15: How about upgrading the lighting in those stations that still use those dim incandescent light bulbs? By the way, does anyone know how many watts those light bulbs are?
        
        Subject: Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question
        Message Number: 759065
        Posted by: sammy
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:02 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]The $100 Million Dollar Question posted by Lou from Middletown on October 16, 1997 at 13:18:16: As was mentioned in one person's reply, the MTA is not allowed by law to carry a profit into the next fiscal year (they should because those assets would generate interest). However, there should be a corresponding law that dictates this profit must be used for the system and should not line the pockets of the politicos or the unions. Here's what they should do: 1) build the damn second ave subway line already. There is a real and pressing need for it. 2) Northern Queens service has been marred by the the 63rd street project. If what they say is true, that the G will terminate at Court Square, in exchange for that, there should be two new stations built: a) at the Greenpoint Waterfront (Ash Street), and b) closer to Vernon-Jackson (7 line) to allow for transfers. Close the 21st St. Van Alst Station 3) Build the DeKalb-Rutgers Tunnel As for the unions, There are plenty of inmates on Rikers Island who should be the ones to be scrubbing station floors, not unionized boobs who collect paychecks for two hours of work on 8 hour days. That should save the MTA a lot of money and teach the inmates a thing or two.
        
        Subject: Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question
        Message Number: 759066
        Posted by: subman23
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question posted by David L. on October 18, 1997 at 00:05:32: The lightbulbs you are referring to are 36 Watts, running on DC.
        
        Subject: Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question
        Message Number: 759070
        Posted by: Michael Berson
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question posted by David L. on October 18, 1997 at 00:05:32: After all these years, It's hard to believe that there are still stations lit by those little bulbs. Any idea how many stations and which ones they are??
        
        Subject: Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question
        Message Number: 759071
        Posted by: David L.
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:07 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question posted by Michael Berson on October 18, 1997 at 21:13:46: The platforms are using flourescent lights, it's the mezzanines that still use the 36 watt bulbs(at least most of the mezzanine, there are flourescent lights near the staircases and token booths). Here are some of those stations: 71/Continental- Forest Hills 63rd Drive- Rego Park Grand Ave- Newtown Elmhurst Ave 65th Street (Queens Blvd Line) 14 Street- 6th Ave ......I'm pretty sure there are more, but I don't remember

Thread title: Re: Dekalb Ave. WRONG LINK! (758669)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:31:51 1997, by David L.

Subject: Re: Dekalb Ave. WRONG LINK!
Message Number: 758669
Posted by: David L.
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:51 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: Dekalb Ave. posted by David L. on October 26, 1997 at 12:03:36: Sorry, I had the wrong link there....here's the right one [6]Detail of Jay St./DeKalb Av. area

Thread title: R-68 A Where are you? (758680)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:31:59 1997, by jeff

Subject: R-68 A Where are you?
Message Number: 758680
Posted by: jeff
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:59 1997

Are the R-68A's returning to the Q ?
- Subject: Re: R-68 A Where are you?
- Message Number: 758682
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:01 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]R-68 A Where are you? posted by jeff on October 26, 1997 at 21:10:44: There is a tremendous amount of public pressure being brought to return the R-68A back to the 'Q' line. However, I think that the reasons for which they were moved will outweigh the public sentiment in this case and the Q will be 68A-less until 1999 when the rest of the 68s are planned to be moved from the D line and moved to Coney Island.
  - Subject: Re: R-68 A Where are you?
  - Message Number: 758697
  - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:13 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: R-68 A Where are you? posted by Steve on October 26, 1997 at 21:41:17: What's NYCT planning to (or tentative plan) replace the D lines' R-68s with? Is there a particular reason why the R-68 are moving to Coney Island. From our discussion/comments last week re: B/ C line north terminal switch last week - I was under the impression that the R-68s (on the D line) and R-68-As would be assigned to Concourse Yard. I was quite disappionted when the R-68As were removed from the D line. I'm guessing the typical D line rider had no idea that their 68As were replaced by slighhtly older R-68s and therefore there was no outbursts.
    - Subject: Re: R-68 A Where are you?
    - Message Number: 758706
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:20 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: R-68 A Where are you? posted by Wayne Johnson on October 27, 1997 at 12:40:55: As is currently being done with the R-68A fleet, the R-68 fleet will be linked into 106 4-car units. Concourse Shop, because of its' relatively small size, can not accommodate a 4-car linked unit efficiently, hence the R-68s will have to go. What does the TA have in mind for the D line? Proposed was a mix of R-32s and R-40 Slants. I am hoping for 380 R-42s instead.
      - Subject: Re: R-68 A Where are you?
      - Message Number: 758722
      - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: R-68 A Where are you? posted by Steve on October 27, 1997 at 18:05:30: I can understand why the TA is linking cars into sets, but my question is: Is this something they decided to do recently as in the last 3-5 years? Are there some newly discovered advantages to the 4 and 5 cars sets or is it bascially the same as married pairs with more cars added in?

Thread title: The Perfect System (758684)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:02 1997, by Philip E. Dominguez

Subject: The Perfect System
Message Number: 758684
Posted by: Philip E. Dominguez
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:02 1997

I Think that when the South Side of the Manhattan Bridge opens that the TA should Re-configure the System. Below Are The results of what I think the system should look like if Re-configured. A- 207 st - Mott Ave/ Far Rockaway B- Coney Is.(via West End) -21 st./ Queensbridge(to be extended) C- 168 st - Liberty Ave. D- Coney Island(via Brighton Lcl) - 205 st. E- World Trade Center - Archer Ave F- Coney Is. (via Culver)- 179 st note: express between Church and Jay St. G- Church Ave- 71 at. H- Rockaway Park - Broad Channel J- 9 Ave (Brooklyn)- Archer Ave. L- 8 Ave - Rockaway Ave. M- Broad St - Metro. Ave N- Coney Is.(via Sea Beach)- 57 st.(or Astoria) Q- Coney Is.(Via Brighton)- LGA Airport * R- Cont. Ave/ 71 st.- 95 st. S- Prospect Park- Franklin Ave. T- Coney Is.(Via Sea Beach Express)- Queensbridge(rush Hours only) Z- 8 Ave/14 street - Archer Ave. *(hopefully) Future El Line to LGA Airport AND will run to 2nd Ave(Man) during Nights and Weekends
- Subject: Re: The Perfect System
- Message Number: 758691
- Posted by: Ed Sachs
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:08 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]The Perfect System posted by Philip E. Dominguez on October 26, 1997 at 22:34:09:
  - Subject: Re: The Perfect System
  - Message Number: 758692
  - Posted by: Ed Sachs
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:09 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]The Perfect System posted by Philip E. Dominguez on October 26, 1997 at 22:34:09: > Z- 8 Ave/14 street - Archer Ave. There is no track connection at this time which would allow such a routing.
    - Subject: Re: The Perfect System
    - Message Number: 758708
    - Posted by: Philip E. D.
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:21 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: The Perfect System posted by Ed Sachs on October 27, 1997 at 09:21:00: Well, Even a perfect system isn't perfect.
      - Subject: Re: The Perfect System
      - Message Number: 758838
      - Posted by: Eric
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]The Perfect System posted by Philip E. Dominguez on October 26, 1997 at 22:34:09: When that side of the bridge opens, the 6th av side is supposed to close again. What I hope they do is use the T for the West end, and the W for the Brighton local, instead of split B & D services. The only problem, T is only on R-32/38 signs, and W is not on most R-68 signs. (the exception is the replacement signs, the ones with the round yellow and orange Q's; I don't know whether these have "T"). Perhaps also, they can upt the N back on the bridge, and the W in the tunnel, like it was before Chrystie St. The switching of the N with one of the Brighton services is apart of the proposals set forth by the East River Crossings study (along with the tunnel coonecting Dekalb to the Rutgers (F line) tunnel).
        
        Subject: Re: The Perfect System
        Message Number: 758872
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: The Perfect System posted by Philip E. D. on October 27, 1997 at 20:51:03: If you are talking about the 14 st/canarsie line there *is* a connection to allow trains from this line to run on the J line. In fact, if you'll look at the old maps on Dave's site, you'll see that they used to run such a train during rush hours.
        
        Subject: Re: The Perfect System
        Message Number: 758875
        Posted by: Michael Berson
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: The Perfect System posted by subway-buff on November 02, 1997 at 12:54:27: There is a connection from the L to the J for Manhattan Bound L trains. I don't think there is a connection for Brooklyn bound L trains to the J.
        
        Subject: Re: The Perfect System
        Message Number: 758897
        Posted by: John
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:50 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: The Perfect System posted by Michael Berson on November 02, 1997 at 15:23:32: Correctomundo -- the connection is for trains coming from Jamaica to Canarsie. I think the old service was the JJ.

Thread title: Re: Chicago L Structures (in ER) (758686)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:04 1997, by Ed Sachs

Subject: Re: Chicago L Structures (in ER)
Message Number: 758686
Posted by: Ed Sachs
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:04 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Chicago L Structures posted by Bob on October 16, 1997 at 18:22:18: Two locations used in the shooting in ER are: Street level at Wabash and Randolph (Loop L). Chicago Ave. platform on Brown/Purple lines (north of the Loop). The Chicago Ave. station is popular with TV/film shooters because the curved platform makes for some interesting shots, and becuase there are no regularly scheduled trains trough there on Sundays. BTW, in Chicago, it's 'L', not 'EL'.
- Subject: Re: Chicago L Structures (in ER)
- Message Number: 758781
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:18 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Chicago L Structures (in ER) posted by Ed Sachs on October 17, 1997 at 09:29:15: The L, you say?
  - Subject: Re: Chicago L Structures (in ER)
  - Message Number: 758898
  - Posted by: BJ
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:51 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Chicago L Structures (in ER) posted by Gary Jacobi on October 17, 1997 at 11:15:48: Yes, we mostly her in Chicago call the EL, L not EL. We also call the Red and Blue Lines down town the L even though they run in Subways. Same goes for ground level and Expressway median.
    - Subject: Re: Chicago L Structures (in ER)
    - Message Number: 758909
    - Posted by: BJ
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:00 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Chicago L Structures (in ER) posted by Gary Jacobi on October 17, 1997 at 11:15:48: Yes, we mostly here in Chicago call the EL, L not EL. We also call the Red and Blue Lines down town the L even though they run in Subways. Same goes for ground level and Expressway median.

Thread title: x11---New Staten Island Bus Service??? (758687)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:05 1997, by christopher

Subject: x11---New Staten Island Bus Service???
Message Number: 758687
Posted by: christopher
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:05 1997

Does anyone have info on this route,,terminals,street routings,,etc. thank you
- Subject: Re: x11---New Staten Island Bus Service???
- Message Number: 758743
- Posted by: michael follo
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:49 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]x11---New Staten Island Bus Service??? posted by christopher on October 27, 1997 at 01:37:09: The X10 Travis branch between Travis & Downtown Manhattan has been renumbered the X11 but the X10 still remains the same between Pt.Richmond & Midtown so riders along the line in Staten Island know which bus goes Downtown & which goes to Midtown.

Thread title: m.t.a seeks to automate subway lines,computers offer fast and safe trains. (758688)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:05 1997, by charlie muller

Subject: m.t.a seeks to automate subway lines,computers offer fast and safe trains.
Message Number: 758688
Posted by: charlie muller
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:05 1997

in the ny times, monday october 27, metro section, the m.t.a. says they plan to buy a communications systen that would allow computers to drive and dispatch trains. the m.t.a. hopes that the results will be trains that run faster and more frequently, cause the system will allow the trains to run closer together and at the same time, more safely, cause human errorthat has been blamed for many crashes would be eliminated . motorpersons would not be eliminated, but the system would make it easier to run trains with a one-person rather than a two-person crew. your thoughts on this scheme. charlie muller.

Thread title: Re: m.t.a seeks to automate subway lines,computers offer fast and safe (758689)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:06 1997, by .

Subject: Re: m.t.a seeks to automate subway lines,computers offer fast and safe
Message Number: 758689
Posted by: .
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:06 1997
- Subject: Re: m.t.a seeks to automate subway lines,computers offer fast and safe
- Message Number: 758690
- Posted by: .
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:07 1997
  - Subject: Re: m.t.a seeks to automate subway lines,computers offer fast and safe
  - Message Number: 758695
  - Posted by: .
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:11 1997
    - Subject: Re: m.t.a seeks to automate subway lines,computers offer fast and safe
    - Message Number: 758698
    - Posted by: .
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:13 1997
      - Subject: Re: m.t.a seeks to automate subway lines,computers offer fast and safe
      - Message Number: 758703
      - Posted by: .
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:17 1997
        
        Subject: Re: m.t.a seeks to automate subway lines,computers offer fast and safe
        Message Number: 758707
        Posted by: .
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:20 1997
        
        Subject: Re: m.t.a seeks to automate subway lines,computers offer fast and safe
        Message Number: 758714
        Posted by: .
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:26 1997
        
        Subject: Re: m.t.a seeks to automate subway lines,computers offer fast and safe
        Message Number: 758720
        Posted by: .
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:30 1997
        
        Subject: Re: m.t.a seeks to automate subway lines,computers offer fast and safe
        Message Number: 758732
        Posted by: .
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:40 1997
        
        Subject: Re: m.t.a seeks to automate subway lines,computers offer fast and safe
        Message Number: 758848
        Posted by: .
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:12 1997
        
        Subject: Re: m.t.a seeks to automate subway lines,computers offer fast and safe
        Message Number: 759147
        Posted by: .
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:52 1997
        
        Subject: Re: m.t.a seeks to automate subway lines,computers offer fast and safe
        Message Number: 759171
        Posted by: .
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:11 1997
        
        Subject: Re: m.t.a seeks to automate subway lines,computers offer fast and safe
        Message Number: 759209
        Posted by: .
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:41 1997
        
        Subject: Re: m.t.a seeks to automate subway lines,computers offer fast and safe
        Message Number: 759223
        Posted by: .
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:52 1997
        
        Subject: Re: m.t.a seeks to automate subway lines,computers offer fast and safe
        Message Number: 759244
        Posted by: .
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:09 1997
        
        Subject: Re: m.t.a seeks to automate subway lines,computers offer fast and safe
        Message Number: 759249
        Posted by: .
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:13 1997

Thread title: R-68As on the Q line. (758693)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:09 1997, by Steve

Subject: R-68As on the Q line.
Message Number: 758693
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:09 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: R40's on the "Q" posted by jeff on the Q on October 26, 1997 at 21:15:33: Sorry but you have a short memory. Actually the R-68As were on the D line from the time they were delivered until mid 1995. They were based (all 200 cars) in Concourse Yard until it was decided to make them into 4-car linked units. Then they were swapped for 192 R-68s. Therefore, the R-68As were only in Q service for about 2 years. Don't fret though, if the current plan goes through, the R-68s will all be moved to Coney Island and the B, N, & Q will be all R-68/R-68A. Now what do you suppose will operate on the D line?
- Subject: Re: R-68As on the Q line.
- Message Number: 758700
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:15 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]R-68As on the Q line. posted by Steve on October 27, 1997 at 09:28:05: D line? Perhaps R-32's and R-40 slants!!??!! Gosh, I hope not, but what else is there? Or could it be R-42's from the L line once the R-143's arrive. I figure it can be any combination of these cars unless equipment is moved from other lines. I lived near the D line for most of my life - which is why I'm always have an extra interest in it. Please don't keep us in suspense.
  - Subject: Re: R-68As on the Q line.
  - Message Number: 758702
  - Posted by: Todd Glickman
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:16 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: R-68As on the Q line. posted by Wayne Johnson on October 27, 1997 at 13:23:20: Why NOT R-32s on the D? Let's paint the doors blue and put the roll signs and marker lights back on. Deja vu all over again!! [I vividly remember asking my grandparents, who lived on Ocean Parkway, to take me to one of the overpasses (Church Ave?) so we could wait for a train of "new" cars to come by when the R-32s were first delivered. I think it was something like one in ten trains at first.]
    - Subject: Re: R-68As on the Q line.
    - Message Number: 758704
    - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:18 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: R-68As on the Q line. posted by Todd Glickman on October 27, 1997 at 16:43:52: Of course nothing is wrong with the R-32. It's just my preference - I was always happy to have the R-68A (and now R-68) on the D and I'd hate to see them go. I guess I'll just be grateful that we had the R-68A on the D line when they were brand new.
      - Subject: Re: R-68As on the Q line.
      - Message Number: 758728
      - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]R-68As on the Q line. posted by Steve on October 27, 1997 at 09:28:05: Hmmm ... there isn't much choice .... R-32s? I guess you really CAN come home again! R-38s? No, I think they're all accounted for on the A line. R-40 slants? Probably! (But Yeech!!) R-40Ms or R-42s? That'd be OK but not until the R-143s come, I guess. You'd be displacing too many trains off the Eastern Division. The R-46s are already too much at home on the F line to move ..... --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: R-68As on the Q line.
        Message Number: 758777
        Posted by: Jeff
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]R-68As on the Q line. posted by Steve on October 27, 1997 at 09:28:05:
        
        Subject: Re: R-68As on the Q line.
        Message Number: 758843
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: R-68As on the Q line. posted by Todd Glickman on October 27, 1997 at 16:43:52: In my case it was the overpass at Lincoln Rd. near Ocean Ave.where I watched the trains.

Thread title: When will FAQ be updated? (758701)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:16 1997, by Nick

Subject: When will FAQ be updated?
Message Number: 758701
Posted by: Nick
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:16 1997

I was wondering when the FAQ will be updated. I'm interested in seeing which trains have changed lines, and which lines those are.-NICK

Thread title: Metro North (758709)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:22 1997, by John

Subject: Metro North
Message Number: 758709
Posted by: John
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:22 1997

I don't know how many of you ride Metro North, but I hope there is enought imformation to answer these questions. 1) on Metro North, I notice there are what seems to be metal posts with a sharp point an the top. They are located mainly on the hudson line near the city. What are these used for? 2) How many tracks are there in Grand Central? Why are so many needed, I noticed some are converted into field offices. 3) On tracks , I think, 38-40 the tracks run into what seems to be some kind of loop. Is this true, if so is it still used? 4) On Lex and 45st. I saw what seems to be Metro Northtracks used for layover. Can anyone conferm this?
- Subject: Re: Metro North
- Message Number: 758712
- Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:24 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Metro North posted by John on October 27, 1997 at 21:21:55: Don't have a clue about the hudson line (other than: don't go fishing there!!!) There are a LOT of tracks is GCT, on TWO levels!!! Remember that GCT was NY Central's MAIN terminal - and that is served a lot of trains (like the 20th Century Limited???). It also served NH at one time too. (I think...) Anyway, that's why there are so many tracks there - not some perverse MTA thing. I don't know if the loop is still used, but it IS useable. was used for pulling trains through and around for departure I guess....
  - Subject: Re: Metro North
  - Message Number: 758713
  - Posted by: John!!!
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:25 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Metro North posted by John on October 27, 1997 at 21:21:55: Hey, just how many "John's" are there on this site?? Please use an additonal digit, or different name to identify yourself -- I'm the "original" John! SORRY!
    - Subject: Re: Metro North
    - Message Number: 758724
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:34 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Metro North posted by John on October 27, 1997 at 21:21:55: > How many tracks are there in Grand Central? Why are so many needed, I > noticed some are converted into field offices. Remember that MTA did not build Grand Central - it was built by Cornelius Vanderbilt who went on to become the head of the NY Central Railroad, and had a large passenger base. Many intercity trains used to make Grand Central their terminal. In the 20s, 30s and 40s, many more people used railroads (and public transit in general) than cars or buses. When the terminal was built, anticipated ridership was considered at the time. Now, with only Metro North using the facility (Amtrak now uses Penn Station), it seems like there is over-capacity. > On tracks , I think, 38-40 the tracks run into what seems to be some kind > of loop. Is this true, if so is it still used? I haven't ridden Metro North recently, but I do remember riding it a few years back where through (diesel) trains to Poughkeepsie did use these loop tracks. Older trains didn't have push-pull equipment and needed to use the loop to leave the terminal. --Mark
      - Subject:
      - Message Number:
      - Posted by:
      - Date: Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 1969

Thread title: Pospect Park (758710)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:23 1997, by Paul

Subject: Pospect Park
Message Number: 758710
Posted by: Paul
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:23 1997

Can anyone discribe or have a diagram of the S-curve at Pospect park on the Franklin Ave shuttle?
- Subject: Pospect Park
- Message Number: 758711
- Posted by: Paul
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:24 1997
  
  Can anyone discribe or have a diagram of the S-curve at Pospect park on the Franklin Ave shuttle? Why does the R-32 seem to shake and rattle from side to side when they run at high speeds? Is it the design or is it because they are just old? Why does Grand Central Terminal have so many tracks? They don't need so many.

Thread title: SOME TRUTH FOR SAMMY (758717)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:28 1997, by Subman23

Subject: SOME TRUTH FOR SAMMY
Message Number: 758717
Posted by: Subman23
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:28 1997

While it is true that unproductivity is a significant problem at the Transit Authority, I must put a great share of the blame on poor supervision of employee's and low expectations by management. Just to let you know employee's are getting suspended and fired all the time for poor job performance, attendance problems and other issues. Ever consider comparing the T.A. against other city agencies. I think the T.A. compares very favorably. However, I too get frustrated by low job performance standards. I agree that "loafers" should be dealt with. Arcane work rules do exist. MTA negotiators should identify these issues and ammend outdated work rules/practices through negotiation with the Transport Workers Union. I further suggest that the union "wake up" and recognize the need for work rule changes. If the union fails to address these issues, they will cause their workers to eventually lose jobs to private competition. I see nothing wrong with good job security. A person who dedicates their live to a company, or government agency should be treated fairly by that entity. One giant problem that you never address is the low productivity (yes, even T.W.U. workers do a better job at a cheaper cost) put out by contractors who upgrade the system. These companies are out of control. They are not properly supervised by the T.A. and often use inferior materials and evade all safety rules. They give the taxpayers a poor product; which is almost always behind schedule and at a highly inflated cost. Do you ever notice that the same companies get all the contracts? These companies have raped the MTA for years and keep doing so. In defense of token booth clerks, $40,000 a year is not a great price to pay to imprison someone for 1/3 of their live (often in isolation). Their job is dangerous; many more clerks have been killed while performing their duties than members of the former Transit Police force. Clerks work in a stressful environment. They are frequently abused by some of New York's psycho's. Ever wonder how easy it is for them to go to the bathroom. Clerks also must remain on duty until relieved (hard to make plans) and they are personally responsible for every cent inside their token booths. Just trying to give you an accurate picture of "Subway Life".

Thread title: Report on 100th Anniversary of Boston Tremont St. Subway (758718)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:29 1997, by Todd Glickman

Subject: Report on 100th Anniversary of Boston Tremont St. Subway
Message Number: 758718
Posted by: Todd Glickman
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:29 1997

Last week the MBTA celebrated the 100th anniversary of the Tremont Street Subway in Boston (thought the actual anniversary was September 1st). [6]Listen, hear! for the 50-second report I prepared on this event for the CBS Radio Network. It features an interview with George Sanborn, Librarian for the Massachusetts State Transporation Library, and MBTA historian. Included are actual sounds of Type-7 and Boeing LRV trolleys going around the sharp curve at Boylston Street Station. (Warning! This .wav file is over 1mb -- T-1 connection advised!)
- Subject: Re: Report on 100th Anniversary of Boston Tremont St. Subway
- Message Number: 758723
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:33 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Report on 100th Anniversary of Boston Tremont St. Subway posted by Todd Glickman on October 28, 1997 at 08:46:59: Do you have a script available for those of us who own or use machines at home or work that are "hearing impared"? My new home machine hasn't been delivered yet ..... --Mark

Thread title: Boston Subway Quiz - Freshman Level (758719)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:30 1997, by Gerry O'Regan

Subject: Boston Subway Quiz - Freshman Level
Message Number: 758719
Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:30 1997

Hi Folks: Just for fun let's see who knows the most about the Boston Subway System. E-mail your answers to me and I will let you know your score. If you score a passing grade, I will send you the GRADUATE LEVEL QUIZ. It's got some really obscure trivia - have fun... I am still trying to come up with an appropriate prize! Certain Boston Transit Historians are inelegible. Gerry (oregan@freud.mec.edu) or (oregan@stclare.mec.edu) EASY BOSTON SUBWAY QUIZ 1. Name the system's deepest underground station. 2. Name the only Rapid Transit Station to and from which a double fare is charged. 3. What do the Charlestown and Longfellow Bridges have in common? 4. What was Government Center Station was previously known as? 5. How could you get Charlie off the MTA? 6. What station has the longest distance between its northbound and southbound platforms? 7. What historic building has a subway lobby in its basement? 8. In 1924 Patriots Day and Easter fell on the same weekend. What major change happened on the Boston Elevated? 9. What do Cabot, Cadigan and Codman have in common? 10. What is the significance of 12:50 AM.

Thread title: 93 YEARS!! (758721)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:32 1997, by Nick

Subject: 93 YEARS!!
Message Number: 758721
Posted by: Nick
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:32 1997

October 27th was the 93rd anniversayry of NYC subways. Congratulations to Allk workers, board members, and riders!

Thread title: United States oldest subway system???? (758729)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:38 1997, by Bob Sines

Subject: United States oldest subway system????
Message Number: 758729
Posted by: Bob Sines
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:38 1997

A friend and I have a bet on what city was the first to have a subway system in the United States. He says Baltimore, while I say NYC. Does anybody out there know the answer?
- Subject: United States oldest subway system????
- Message Number: 758730
- Posted by: Bob Sines
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:39 1997
  
  A friend and I have a bet on what city was the first to have a subway system in the United States. He says Baltimore, while I say NYC. Does anybody out there know the answer?
  - Subject: Re: United States oldest subway system????
  - Message Number: 758731
  - Posted by: Todd Glickman
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:40 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]United States oldest subway system???? posted by Bob Sines on October 28, 1997 at 14:15:53: The first SUBWAY in the U.S. was the Tremont Street subway in Boston, opening September 1, 1897. That's the subject covered in my report mentioned a few posts ago. Also, there's a new book, "Tremont St. Subway" Subway written by Bradley Clarke and O.R. Cummings, just published by the Boston Street Railway Association. I know that the book is available through the Seashore Trolley Museum gift shop. You can [7]email them at carshop@gwi.net or visit their home page at: [8]http://www.gwi.net/trolley
    - Subject: Re: United States oldest subway system????
    - Message Number: 758744
    - Posted by: Joe M
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:50 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]United States oldest subway system???? posted by Bob Sines on October 28, 1997 at 14:15:53: Boston
      - Subject: Re: United States oldest subway system????
      - Message Number: 758756
      - Posted by: Bob A
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: United States oldest subway system???? posted by Todd Glickman on October 28, 1997 at 14:51:53: What about the Beach Pneumatic Subway in NYC, which was much earlier than 1897? It didn't last long - but it was first!
        
        Subject: Re: United States oldest subway system????
        Message Number: 758761
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: United States oldest subway system???? posted by Bob A on October 29, 1997 at 11:24:52: I think this is generally not counted as it really wasn't a "subway". It was more like a tunnel with a station at one end. (Not both ends.) You couldn't use it to actually GET anywhere and was more of a demonstration of pneumatic technology than anything else.

Thread title: F TRAIN (758735)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:43 1997, by WARREN A. THOMAS

Subject: F TRAIN
Message Number: 758735
Posted by: WARREN A. THOMAS
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:43 1997

ON TUESDAY OCTOBER 28, 1997, AT APPROXIMATELY 9:30 A.M., AN F TRAIN WHICH WAS IN SERVICE AND TRANSPORTING PASSENGERS, SPED THROUGH THE PARSONS BLVD. STATION ON THE MANHATTAN-BOUND EXPRESS TRACK WITHOUT PICKING UP ANY PASSENGERS. WHY WAS THERE NO PICK-UP, AND WHY WAS THE F OPERATING ON THE EXPRESS TRACK WHEN IT NO LONGER OPERATES AS AN EXPRESS IN QUEENS BETWEEN 179TH STREET AND CONTINENTAL AVENUE???
- Subject: Re: F TRAIN
- Message Number: 758749
- Posted by: Fernando Perez
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:54 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]F TRAIN posted by WARREN A. THOMAS on October 28, 1997 at 17:02:38: CAUSE IT IS THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT !!
  - Subject: Re: F TRAIN
  - Message Number: 758765
  - Posted by: John
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:06 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: F TRAIN posted by Fernando Perez on October 29, 1997 at 01:02:32: Maybe it was one of those things that just 'happen', just like a few months ago, when I was on a downtown #1 that skipped all the stops between 14th and Chambers. Service was operating normally that day and the train remained on the local track, but just blew its horn as it went through each stop.
    - Subject: Re: F TRAIN
    - Message Number: 758794
    - Posted by: Garfield A
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:29 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: F TRAIN posted by John on October 29, 1997 at 17:06:02: This is a similar situation that has happened to me numerous times. I have come with the idea that if the train is "really" late the train therefore skips local stations and stops at "major" stations. As I said this usually happens when the train is late.
      - Subject: Re: F TRAIN
      - Message Number: 758817
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:47 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: F TRAIN posted by Garfield A on October 30, 1997 at 08:26:04: The practice you are referring (skipping stations without stoping) to is called a "Battery Run" and is not a comon practice. Since the F train was on the express track, I would assume that the train was not in service but rather was being used as a School Car train for teaching Train Operators or Conductors or as a shuttle train for visitors to the system. Had it been a regular road train, it would have been on the local track.
        
        Subject: Re: F TRAIN
        Message Number: 758917
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: F TRAIN posted by Steve on October 30, 1997 at 23:46:04: You know, this brings up an interesting question. What parts of the system are used to give train operators who are in training (ugh, ugly sentence!) some "practical experience" with an instructor? (Before a trainee is accompanied by an instructor on a revenue train.) --Mark

Thread title: Re: 93 YEARS!!:What to do for Centennial? (758739)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:46 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: Re: 93 YEARS!!:What to do for Centennial?
Message Number: 758739
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:46 1997

In Reply to: [5]93 YEARS!! posted by Nick on October 28, 1997 at 10:35:06: What does anybody out there think will be done in seven years for the Centennial of the IRT?? What SHOULD be done in all our opinions??

Thread title: Re: Grand Central Terminal tracks (758740)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:47 1997, by Danny V.

Subject: Re: Grand Central Terminal tracks
Message Number: 758740
Posted by: Danny V.
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:47 1997

In Reply to: [6]Pospect Park posted by Paul on October 27, 1997 at 21:28:22: Are you referring to the Metro-North tracks, or the Shuttle tracks... With the Shuttle, the reason there are 3 tracks is because when the subway first opened, the Broadway IRT used to run through there... It made a turn at Times Square, continued onto Grand Central, and then proceeded down Park Avenue South...

Thread title: Re: Metro North-original John (758741)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:47 1997, by Guess

Subject: Re: Metro North-original John
Message Number: 758741
Posted by: Guess
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:47 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: Metro North posted by John!!! on October 27, 1997 at 22:36:54: I suppose that has nothing to dowith the earlier postings on the "P" train!

Thread title: Mystery tunnel and South American R-46 (758742)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:48 1997, by Jeffrey from Brooklyn

Subject: Mystery tunnel and South American R-46
Message Number: 758742
Posted by: Jeffrey from Brooklyn
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:48 1997

I've noticed that there's a recently bored tunnel on the southbound track of the Broadway N and R line. Where does it go? On another subject, is it true that one production model R-46 was sent to or bought by Caracas, Venezuela by Pullman-Standard back in the 70's?
- Subject: Re: Mystery tunnel and South American R-46
- Message Number: 758752
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:56 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Mystery tunnel and South American R-46 posted by Jeffrey from Brooklyn on October 28, 1997 at 19:54:31: R-46 #816 was sent to Caracas before it was delivered to the NYCTA
  - Subject: Re: Mystery tunnel and South American R-46
  - Message Number: 758763
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:04 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Mystery tunnel and South American R-46 posted by Jeffrey from Brooklyn on October 28, 1997 at 19:54:31: I haven't heard anything about new construction on the N and R line. Where did you see this new tunnel?
    - Subject: Re: Mystery tunnel and South American R-46
    - Message Number: 758764
    - Posted by: LOu from Middletown
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:05 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Mystery tunnel and South American R-46 posted by Jeffrey from Brooklyn on October 28, 1997 at 19:54:31: Are you sure its not the tunnel borings made back in the 20's, when they thought they might someday build a tunnel to Staten Island???
      - Subject: Re: Mystery tunnel and South American R-46
      - Message Number: 758774
      - Posted by: Jeffrey from Brooklyn
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:13 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Mystery tunnel and South American R-46 posted by Peter Rosa on October 29, 1997 at 14:06:00: I forgot to mention that this mystery tunnel is between court street and south ferry on the southbound side.
        
        Subject: Re: Mystery tunnel and South American R-46
        Message Number: 758775
        Posted by: Jeffrey from b
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Mystery tunnel and South American R-46 posted by LOu from Middletown on October 29, 1997 at 14:27:31:
        
        Subject: Re: Mystery tunnel and South American R-46
        Message Number: 758803
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Mystery tunnel and South American R-46 posted by Jeffrey from Brooklyn on October 29, 1997 at 20:37:49: If it comes in from the left as you travel towards Brooklyn, that is the end of the Broad Street line, where the M trains continue their journey out towards the West End line. I believe in the northbound tube of the Montague St. tunnel there is also an access to the basement of Jay St. headquarters, where the "money trains" drop off their nightly collections of lucre. Maybe that is what you saw??
        
        Subject: Re: Mystery tunnel and South American R-46
        Message Number: 758804
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Mystery tunnel and South American R-46 posted by Jeffrey from Brooklyn on October 29, 1997 at 20:37:49: If it comes in from the left as you travel towards Brooklyn, that is the end of the Broad Street line, where the M trains continue their journey out towards the West End line. I believe in the northbound tube of the Montague St. tunnel there is also an access to the basement of Jay St. headquarters, where the "money trains" drop off their nightly collections of lucre. Maybe that is what you saw??
        
        Subject: Re: Mystery tunnel and South American R-46
        Message Number: 758807
        Posted by: Bill from S.I.
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Mystery tunnel and South American R-46 posted by Jeffrey from Brooklyn on October 28, 1997 at 19:54:31: If you were heading towards Bklyn and it was on your left just outside of Whitehall station there are two cut outs. If this is what you saw then these are tunnles that were to go to Staten Island but that idea died long time ago. There is another "tunnel" down the track off to the left this is the ventlation shaft, the passage way connects all the tracks in the area (northbound N ,southbond N , Northbound J and the southbound J) There are no tracks just a walkway.

Thread title: A personal message to "Sammy" (758745)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:50 1997, by Steve

Subject: A personal message to "Sammy"
Message Number: 758745
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:50 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: transit boom reevaluated posted by Sammy on October 28, 1997 at 02:43:17: Samantha, First some real facts. The US Airline industry is more highly subsidised than is the NYCT where 88% of each ride is paid for out of the fare box. And for you, as a union member (Flight attendants are unionized aren't they?)you have a weird sense of unions and work-rules. Perhaps this is good but I'm sure you expect to be paid when your plane is on the ground just as train operators expect to be paid when they are on the job and not on their trains. About the time you were entering high school, I was a supervisor and manager in the NYCT system and believe me I know of where I speak. Granted, some TA work rules are out dated but I'm sure some of your work rules are too. Is safety in the airline industry a waste of time too? When I first became a Supervisor in the Division os Car Equipment, I started out thinking I was going to change the world. One of my bosses taught me one thing before he retired. "A big ship turn slowly." and as much as I still want to change some of the situations within which I must work, the AFL-CIO is still a powerful force in this nation. Despite this, we have made tremendous productivity gains in the last 5 years (of which OPTO is just a small part). Back about a dozen years ago, the mean distance between failures of our cars was barely 5,000 miles. Today the fleet, including some cars which are nearing 40 years old, has an MDBF approaching 70,000 miles. At the same time, my fleet has an MDBF of over 100,000 miles. THAT IS PRODUCTIVITY and that productivity was achieved by managers and supervisors and hourly employees working together to achieve our goals. If it sound like I am preaching, well perhaps I am but I am sick and tired of people like you who had HO trains and now think that they can run a real railroad. As for your comment about your perception of my intelligence, I'll just chalk that up to your youth. Same goes for misrepresenting yourself to all concerned.
- Subject: Re: A personal message to "Sammy"
- Message Number: 758751
- Posted by: Sammy
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:55 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]A personal message to "Sammy" posted by Steve on October 29, 1997 at 00:23:20: Steve: o.k. Enough is enough. First of all, its Sam and not Samantha (but if you know of one, I'll take her phone number) Second, I have much more experience than you could ever imagine in operations management, quality control, etc. I guess an MBA and all my years of experience in this area won't suffice, huh? Thirdly, I am sick and tired of the union driving costs up for us artifically, disregarding work rules (smoking and littering in stations, etc.), holding up trains while they chat, and creating an atmosphere of such disrespect between the MTA, the public and themselves that we'll never get anything accomplished. Question for you. If the whole kit and kaboodle was private, and say run as part of say, the Trump organization, do you think we'd have: a) the idiotic and chaotic scheduling that is the northern queens IND lines? b) taking a project like the 63 st. line over the 2nd avenue line? c) the short sightedness that characterizes the MTA (lloking for a way to stifle economic growth in a community? call the MTA.) d) the absolute distaste the unions and MTA have for the public? e) workers who flaunt rules by smoking, etc. in the station and on the job? The answer is no. And I'll chalk that one up to you not having enough experience being on the firing line. As for the milage in between repairs, well, I say, its about time.
  - Subject: Re: A personal message to "Sammy"
  - Message Number: 758757
  - Posted by: John M.
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:00 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: A personal message to "Sammy" posted by Sammy on October 29, 1997 at 05:49:11: I think if the MTA were run by the Trump Organization, the entrances to the subway stations would be marked by golden "T"'s and the stations themselves would be redone in late '70's mafioso (a la Trump Tower).
    - Subject: Re: A personal message to "Sammy"
    - Message Number: 758787
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:23 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: A personal message to "Sammy" posted by Sammy on October 29, 1997 at 05:49:11: Okay - enough is enough. But for the sake of this discussion, your entire premise is flawed. Trump would never run a public transit system. There is no profit. If he were to run it, there'd be no service on the busses at all as well as most of the subway lines. Service to outlying boroughs would be curtailed or stopped all together. I will say that you are right about 63rd St. It's a duplication of the F line with a different river tunnel. Now for the last time, 2 personal points. First: Do not presume to know about how much experience I have on the 'Firing Lines'. I can back up my claims. All we here from you are a lot of Idle Boasts and a collection of worn out ideas from old postings that you've just dusted off. When you come up with an original thought, I hope it doesn't die of loneliness. Second: Your E-Mail link is to Sammy@AOL.com. The user profile for Sammy at AOL.com is Samantha Thomas, a 26 year old flight attendent from LA. Either you're posting with a false E-Mail link, you are Samantha, or (well, we wont get into the rest)

Thread title: Car Linking (758746)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:51 1997, by Steve

Subject: Car Linking
Message Number: 758746
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:51 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: R-68 A Where are you? posted by Wayne Johnson on October 28, 1997 at 11:54:46: There are both savings and costs associated with linking cars. In the case of the R-68 the advantages are thought to out-weigh the costs. Currently, an R-68 car has 2 master controllers, 2 brake valves, 2 couplers and 2 electric portions. Once linked, a 4-car linked unit will have a total of 2 of the same components. A reduction of 75% which represents a significant savings in material and manpower on the maintenance end. In addition, the reliability of the cars is proportionally increaased. At the same time, there are dis-advantages. For example, if one car goes out of service, three "OK mates" are out of service also. Another dis-advantage is that some shops are physically unable to support the 4-car links. This reduces flexibility. Finally, to your last question, yes, this is a relatively new idea which is based on the success of the R-44 and R-46 linking.
- Subject: Re: Car Linking
- Message Number: 758753
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:57 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Car Linking posted by Steve on October 29, 1997 at 00:35:48: Cripes, I remember back in early 1981 when we were discussing design of new cars to be purchased over the balance of the 1980s, the problem of OK mates was paramount in people's thinking. It is why the R-62s went to singletons and, I guess, why the R-68s went the same way. Of course at that time, the MDBF for the fleet was prob. under 10,000 mi. so there was much less flexibility with so many other cars out of service for regular repairs. Now with the MDBF resembling Yankee Stadium capacity, it appears that the benefits of creating married quartets from a maintenance side far outweigh operational constraints. When the fleet ages again out in 2010 or so, are we going to de-link???
  - Subject: Re: Car Linking
  - Message Number: 758760
  - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:02 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Car Linking posted by Steve on October 29, 1997 at 00:35:48: Re: Shops: I always thought Concourse shop looked at bit small. I realize I'm full of questions, but are there any plans to expand the shops that cannot handle the 4 car sets? If not then I guess this will be the end of 75 foot equipment on the D line barring a north terminal switch which is probably very unlikely. Also will Concourse shops be able to handle 67 foot car sets? Next: For lines such as the D and F which have shops at or near both terminals why not service the cars at both shops sort of the way some TA bus routes are split between two depots.
    - Subject: Re: Car Linking
    - Message Number: 758782
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:19 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Car Linking posted by Wayne Johnson on October 29, 1997 at 12:45:04: Concourse Shop was scheduled for rehab in 1987, then again in 1997. It was postponed again until 2005. I might be around to see it completed. As to the question of splitting the maintenance on a line: Thats a complicated question which has to do more with the organization of the Division of Car Equipment than it has to do with logic. The A & C lines are split between 2 shops. The R-44s and R-32s are maintained at Pitkin Shop in Bklyn. and the R-38s and R110B are maintained at 207th St.
      - Subject: Re: Car Linking
      - Message Number: 758788
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Car Linking posted by Charles Fiori on October 29, 1997 at 10:58:34: It was the purchase of the R-62 and R-68A that changed the thinking of the senior directors managers of the Div. of Car Equipment, regarding linking of cars. During the procurement, delivery and warranty, many trips were made to Kawasaki Heavy Industries in Kobe, Japan. Those who went, soon became impressed with the Japanese concept of transit fleet maintenance. The Japanese transit people believe in maintaining trains in fixed consists for service as well as for routine and unplanned maintenance. In other words, if one car had a propulsion failure, there might be as many as 9 'OK mates' held out of service. Thankfully, to date, the NYCT has linked only the R-44s, R-46s and R-68As into 4 car unit and the R-62s into 5 car units.

Thread title: Re: Operator Trainee & R40 (758748)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:53 1997, by Lou

Subject: Re: Operator Trainee & R40
Message Number: 758748
Posted by: Lou
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:53 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: Operator Trainee & R40 posted by Dave on October 16, 1997 at 07:06:57: >>Not to be picky Why even say that?? You are picky. I spelled Instruction and another word wrong too if you want to be even more picky. I am happy just that you were able to understand my message. It took me over 10 years to learn how to read let alone write so go ahead and be picky. No matter how many times I reread a message I spell something wrong (just caught a spelling error above). I try hard but when people jump all over you for spellign erorrs I just get mad. Please don't take this to personal, this was my third "you spelled something wrong message" today. >Getting off of soapboxLou
- Subject: Operator Trainee & R40
- Message Number: 759029
- Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:33 1997
  
  Another reason I just discovered that will make me get over losing the R68 from the Q line (can I beat this subject to death?). Today we had a traniee operator and without the full length cab for the whole trip I overheard the insturtions to him about the line. What run position to use and when to release some of the air and how to break. At one point he pulled the trainee out to demo how to properly break into the station and BOY did you notice the difference in the use of the break. All in all I found it intresting and a great insight to operating a subway train.
  - Subject: Re: Operator Trainee & R40
  - Message Number: 759045
  - Posted by: Dave
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:47 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Operator Trainee & R40 posted by Lou from Brooklyn on October 15, 1997 at 10:45:13: > Not to be picky but the word is spelled "brake."
    - Subject: Re: Operator Trainee & R40
    - Message Number: 759046
    - Posted by: Dave
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:47 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Operator Trainee & R40 posted by Lou from Brooklyn on October 15, 1997 at 10:45:13: > Not to be picky but the word is spelled "brake."
      - Subject: Re: Operator Trainee & R40
      - Message Number: 759097
      - Posted by: Foti Makritoxoni
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:28 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Operator Trainee & R40 posted by Dave on October 16, 1997 at 07:07:40: Dave, Dave, Hmm is that you Rabbi Shwartz?
        
        Subject: Re: Operator Trainee & R40
        Message Number: 759101
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Operator Trainee & R40 posted by Lou from Brooklyn on October 15, 1997 at 10:45:13: It's not suprising that you notised a difference between a seasoned operator and a trainee. To paraphrase Walter Matheau (Pelham 1-2-3) "You don't learn to drive a train watching Sesame Street." Actually, there is a perceptable difference between the braking characteristics of many of the NYCT car classes. Most dramatic is the difference in the braking between the R-68 and R-68A. An experienced R-68 operator can experience difficulties when stopping an R-68A.

Thread title: Longest Transit Strike(s)? (758754)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:32:57 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Longest Transit Strike(s)?
Message Number: 758754
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:32:57 1997

Hoping that any strike by Amtrak will be a short one, Does anyone recall when and where the longest transit strike(s) occurred, and how long they lasted? This includes city transit and commuter rail systems, as well as nationwide systems, such as Greyhound, Trailways, etc..
- Subject: Re: Longest Transit Strike(s)?
- Message Number: 758758
- Posted by: Nick
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:00 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Longest Transit Strike(s)? posted by Timothy on October 29, 1997 at 11:06:08: Sometime in the 80's Metro-North had a strike that went for 6 weeks. The highways were a mess!!-NICK

Thread title: 100 Years of Equipment Moving People (was: Re: 93 YEARS!!:What to do for (758762)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:33:04 1997, by .

Subject: 100 Years of Equipment Moving People (was: Re: 93 YEARS!!:What to do for
Message Number: 758762
Posted by: .
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:04 1997
- Subject: Re: 100 Years of Equipment Moving People (was: Re: 93 YEARS!!:What to do for
- Message Number: 758766
- Posted by: .
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:07 1997
  - Subject: Re: 100 Years of Equipment Moving People (was: Re: 93 YEARS!!:What to do for
  - Message Number: 758815
  - Posted by: .
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:46 1997

Thread title: the nontransfer at broadway-lafayette/bleecker (758767)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:33:08 1997, by melanie

Subject: the nontransfer at broadway-lafayette/bleecker
Message Number: 758767
Posted by: melanie
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:08 1997

I think this should receive a big response because i am referring to the lack of an uptown transfer to the BDF subway from the 6 at Bleecker. I am a student at Cooper Union and this a project, so any comments of the situation or any actual lead would be much aprreciated. Thank you.
- Subject: Re: the nontransfer at broadway-lafayette/bleecker
- Message Number: 758771
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:11 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]the nontransfer at broadway-lafayette/bleecker posted by melanie on October 29, 1997 at 17:46:47: Perhaps a better question, rather than why no uptown connection, would be why bother with a downtown connection if both could not be provided? There are at least a dozen other nearly adjacent stations on the subway that are NOT connected, yet someone bothered to make this half-(assed?)one. There is a story here somewhere; does the connection date back to B'way Lafayette construction in the 30's, or to Bleeker St. platform lengthening in the late 50's?
  - Subject: Re: the nontransfer at broadway-lafayette/bleecker
  - Message Number: 758773
  - Posted by: Danny V.
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:12 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: the nontransfer at broadway-lafayette/bleecker posted by Gary Jacobi on October 29, 1997 at 19:08:13: You could transfer... if you have a Metro-Card... If you use the token, you won't be able to make that transfer...
    - Subject: Re: the nontransfer at broadway-lafayette/bleecker
    - Message Number: 758776
    - Posted by: Larry Littlefield
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:14 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: the nontransfer at broadway-lafayette/bleecker posted by Danny V. on October 29, 1997 at 19:36:52: The northbound and southbound platforms are not in the same place. The northbound platform is a block or two north of Houston Street, where the IND line runs. You would have to build a new northbound platform at Houston to make a transfer. The southbound transfer was easy. They never bothered because they thought they were going to build an IND subway line on Second Avenue.
      - Subject: Re: the nontransfer at broadway-lafayette/bleecker
      - Message Number: 758886
      - Posted by: Danny V.
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: the nontransfer at broadway-lafayette/bleecker posted by Larry Littlefield on October 29, 1997 at 20:50:08: You know they'll never build the 2nd Avenue line, even thoug it is sorely needed...

Thread title: How old is CTA (Possibly over 100?) (758769)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:33:09 1997, by BJ

Subject: How old is CTA (Possibly over 100?)
Message Number: 758769
Posted by: BJ
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:09 1997

I read the posts that you guys are happy about the mta turning 93 years old. How can this be so? The CTA green line got renovated in 1994 because the Lake Street portion was over 100 years old and the 63rd lines were also pretty old! I realize that back then it wasn't called the CTA, but the trains still exsisted!
- Subject: Re: How old is CTA (Possibly over 100?)
- Message Number: 758772
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:11 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]How old is CTA (Possibly over 100?) posted by BJ on October 29, 1997 at 18:24:25: Actually we were talking about the first subway line in New York turning 93. New York City had elevated trains running prior to the opening of the subway starting around 1870. All of these are long gone. The oldest parts date from the 1890s on the Broadway El in Brooklyn (current J/Z line).
  - Subject: Re: How old is CTA (Possibly over 100?)
  - Message Number: 758779
  - Posted by: Joe M
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:17 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]How old is CTA (Possibly over 100?) posted by BJ on October 29, 1997 at 18:24:25: The south side L started in June 6, 1892 with steam-powered service. The Chicago-Evanston railroad, now the Evenston and Red Line traces back to Feb. 16 1861 The Chicago Loop L celebrated 100 years in October 97 (the 12th I think) electrified Subways did not come to Chicago until until 1943 (source "CTA at 45" by George Krambles and Arther Peterson.)
    - Subject: Re: How old is CTA (Possibly over 100?)
    - Message Number: 758798
    - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:32 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: How old is CTA (Possibly over 100?) posted by David Pirmann on October 29, 1997 at 19:34:33: The initial Brooklyn Els opened in 1885. Some of the non-elevated components are remnants of the even older Coney Island steam railroads.

Thread title: MBTA Commuter rail to Millis? (758780)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:33:17 1997, by Michael J. Follo

Subject: MBTA Commuter rail to Millis?
Message Number: 758780
Posted by: Michael J. Follo
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:17 1997

I've noticed that at South Station on the big "T" train information board that the terminals for each line switch when a train leaves a particular track, I've have noticed that there is a desination sigh that says Millis, I would like to know if there are plans for restoration of Commuter rail service to Millis.

Thread title: Plans for an Uptown connection at Broadway/Lafayette to #6 (758783)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:33:20 1997, by Michael

Subject: Plans for an Uptown connection at Broadway/Lafayette to #6
Message Number: 758783
Posted by: Michael
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:20 1997

NYCT is studying the possibility of building an uptown connection from the Broadway/Lafayette St Station on the B/D/F/Q lines to the uptown #6 train at Bleeker St as part of the East River Crossing Study that NYCT is still doing in which this study should be completed soon.
- Subject: Re: Plans for an Uptown connection at Broadway/Lafayette to #6
- Message Number: 758785
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:21 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Plans for an Uptown connection at Broadway/Lafayette to #6 posted by Michael on October 29, 1997 at 22:24:22: A free transfer would be possible without any construction at all. This would involve installing special MetroCard readers at each station. Swiping the reader upon exit would allow a free entry to the other station, subject to a reasonable time limit (10 minutes?)
  - Subject: Re: Plans for an Uptown connection at Broadway/Lafayette to #6
  - Message Number: 758792
  - Posted by: Garfield A
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:27 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Plans for an Uptown connection at Broadway/Lafayette to #6 posted by Michael on October 29, 1997 at 22:24:22: I think the idea is a good one. Because I've noticed a few times entering and leaving the station, people are have a puzzled look when trying to find uptown service. I remember telling someone the quickest way to get the Upper East side is to take the local down 3 stops from Bleecker St. to Bklyn Bridge and then walking across to catch the uptown trains.
    - Subject: Re: Plans for an Uptown connection at Broadway/Lafayette to #6
    - Message Number: 758800
    - Posted by: Joshua Caesar
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:33 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Plans for an Uptown connection at Broadway/Lafayette to #6 posted by Peter Rosa on October 29, 1997 at 22:31:05: Peter Rosa wrote "A free transfer would be possible without any construction at all. This would involve installing special MetroCard readers at each station. Swiping the reader upon exit would allow a free entry to the other station, subject to a reasonable time limit (10 minutes?)" I always feared that the advent of MetroCard would bring about the loss of new construction. Setting up a MetroCard transfer may be the cheaper solution, but it is not the permanent one. MetroCard while be around for a while, but who knows what is going to happen to it down the road, it can be replaced. And what if the transfer termainal go down? Add that to the fact that riders have to leave and re-enter the NYCT system to make the transfer, something that can be asking for trouble with out of town riders. It is enough trying to navigate your way around within the subway, add finding another subway entrance in the middle of your ride to that and you have some lost out-of-towners on your hand. NYCT should find the money and build the up-town transfer, like they should have down long ago. JC Josh Caesar studlyjc@aol.com
      - Subject: Re: Plans for an Uptown connection at Broadway/Lafayette to #6
      - Message Number: 758809
      - Posted by: Peter Rosa
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Plans for an Uptown connection at Broadway/Lafayette to #6 posted by Joshua Caesar on October 30, 1997 at 15:06:02: You are right, a MetroCard-enabled transfer at B'way-Lafayette/NB Bleeker would be an inadequate substitute for a physical connection. But this is a case of theory vs. reality. The chances that the MTA would build a connection, given its record, are slim to none. On an admittedly greater scale, think of the Second Avenue subway - it hasn't gotten out of the talking stage after several *decades*! My point is that opting for the quick and dirty approach might well be the better choice under the circumstances. Having a cumbersome MetroCard transfer today is preferable to waiting years for a physical connecting passage. Requiring people to leave the system to make a MetroCard-enabled free transfer could indeed confuse many people. That probably would be less of an issue at B'way-Lafayette/NB Bleeker, that being off the main tourist route. In any event, clear signage would be a must.

Thread title: MBTA train information terminal signs at South Station (758784)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:33:20 1997, by michael

Subject: MBTA train information terminal signs at South Station
Message Number: 758784
Posted by: michael
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:20 1997

I am looking for someone who might have a copy of terminal points that the MBTA uses on its Train Information Board at South Station.

Thread title: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. (758786)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:33:22 1997, by michael

Subject: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.
Message Number: 758786
Posted by: michael
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:22 1997

I think that it is about time to restore "F" express service in Brooklyn that has been talked about in both 1991 & 1994 with the same plan offered, one would have "F" trains marked Coney Island would operate express between Church Av & Jay St stopping at 7th Av & another "F" train marked Church Av would operate local between Church Av & Jay St with extending the "G" trains to Church Av, these plans would only operate in the peak period only,I would like to know if there are plans to restore "F" express in Brooklyn in 1998 or not.
- Subject: Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.
- Message Number: 758789
- Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:25 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by michael on October 29, 1997 at 22:53:01: How about creating peak direction express service on the "B" in Brooklyn, between 36th Street and Bay Parkway. Local service would be handled by the "M" which already runs to Bay Parkway during rush hours. A question is the patronage impact on the "N", which essentially duplicates the routing of the B/M.
  - Subject: Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.
  - Message Number: 758790
  - Posted by: Garfield A
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:25 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by Mike Rothenberg on October 30, 1997 at 00:26:44: I honestly think there's no need for express service in Brooklyn for that line. I ride the line in Queens (under Queens Blvd) and notice that the bulk of passengers are in Queens rather than in Brooklyn. You have additional trains during rush hours that begin and end at Kings Hwy which handles the lesser bulk of people than in Queens.
    - Subject: Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.
    - Message Number: 758810
    - Posted by: Michael Berson
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:42 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by Garfield A on October 30, 1997 at 08:15:51: How about restoring the express service in Queens between Continental Avenue and 179th Street?
      - Subject: Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.
      - Message Number: 758837
      - Posted by: Eric B
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by Michael Berson on October 30, 1997 at 21:19:54: I've been suggesting to the TA for future phases of Manhattan Bridge work(6th AV side closed, fully closed, fully open, in each case when the Q is removed from 6th Av. To start up V service (even if the 63rd st connection is not open yet), which would go local from 21st St to Church Av. The G would be extended as well. The V could also be extended further as well, so that the F could go express to Kings Hwy or even Ave. X. This may be necessary in the event of a full bridge closure.
        
        Subject: Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.
        Message Number: 758841
        Posted by: Michael
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by Eric B on October 31, 1997 at 20:03:09: This is not a good plan, like I said, NYCT plans to use the same "F" express plan in Brooklyn that was proposed in both 1991 & 1994 with two "F" trains, one would have the "F" marked CONEY Island would operate express between Jay St & Church Av stopping at 7th Av & the other "F" marked CHURCH Av would operate local between Jay St & Church Av replacing the peak period Kings Highway trains & extension of peak "G" trains to Church Av. This plan would only operate in peak period only.
        
        Subject: Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.
        Message Number: 758850
        Posted by: Mike K
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:13 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by michael on October 29, 1997 at 22:53:01: Here how I think they should work this idea. F-would operate express in peak direction between Church Avenue and Kings Highway. It would also operate express rush hours and middays between Church Avenue and Jay Street (this would be in both directions). G-would operate to Church Avenue rush hours and middays. V-would operate to Kings Highway rush hours, to Second Avenue middays and, if necessary, at other times (evenings, nights, weekends). Service would not change at opther times.
        
        Subject: Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.
        Message Number: 758857
        Posted by: Michael Berson
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by Michael on October 31, 1997 at 22:55:48: Instead of having the F terminate at Church Avenue, why not extend it South to Kings Highway. Trains marked Coney island would run express between Jay Street and Kings Highway. Trains marked Kings Highway would run local. By doing it this way, there would be no need to extend the G to Church Avenue. The F (express and local) would serve Church Avenue. This is how the F express used to be provided before it was "temporarily halted" in the mid 80's due to "express track re-construction." This plan would also make the Carroll Street residents happy as they would still have the F service. From what I understand, part of the reason the express service was eliminated was due to complaints that Carroll Street was only served by the G during peak hours. With this arrangement, the F would stop at Carroll Street and keep everyone happy... Any thoughts??
        
        Subject: Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.
        Message Number: 758865
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by Mike K on November 01, 1997 at 09:19:57: Interesting idea but extending the G line and maintaining the same headways would mean extra trains. Since the spare factors an most B division shops are low, you would have to find cars to make up at least 2 additional trains and add them to the Jamaica Fleet.
        
        Subject: Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.
        Message Number: 758869
        Posted by: David L.
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by michael on October 29, 1997 at 22:53:01: Just curious....when they renovated the Bergen St station, did they renovate the lower level of the station. And also during the renovation, did they remove or cover up the staircases that leads to the lower level?
        
        Subject: Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.
        Message Number: 758879
        Posted by: Michael
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by Michael Berson on November 01, 1997 at 13:39:43: The reason that "F" express service in Brooklyn hasn't been restored is because there are not enough car fleet to do the express service & riders at Carroll St during peak-period would still have "F" local marked Church Av with the Coney Island "F" trains operating express. It would be nice for NYCT not to break it's promise to "F" train riders in Southern Brooklyn that was proposed in both 1991 & 1994.
        
        Subject: Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.
        Message Number: 758884
        Posted by: Danny
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by David L. on November 02, 1997 at 12:05:09: I believe they covered the staircases up, but they could be dug up if necessary...
        
        Subject: Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.
        Message Number: 758885
        Posted by: Scruffy
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by David L. on November 02, 1997 at 12:05:09: The staircases are covered, but can be dug up if necessary...
        
        Subject: Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.
        Message Number: 758890
        Posted by: David L.
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by David L. on November 02, 1997 at 12:05:09: In fact, I just passed by the Bergen Street station today and I saw these two very wide doors at the north end of the southbound platform. Maybe those doors lead to a staircase that goes to the lower level of the station. Can anyone confirm this?
        
        Subject: Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.
        Message Number: 758914
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by Steve on November 02, 1997 at 09:17:28: What about the R-143s then? Couldn't this order be changed to accommodate for Mike K's proposal? Even if could, though, ridership on the "F" line would have to be studied to determine if the additional service would be warranted. I'm sure we could all agree that it would be great to have F express service but if the costs couldn't be justified, then we won't see it happenning soon. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.
        Message Number: 758915
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by Mark S Feinman on November 03, 1997 at 13:07:39: I forgot to add something .... The switch to route F trains from Coney Island onto the center express track at Kings Highway was removed some time ago and was not replaced. F trains leaving Coney Island would have to run local all the way to Ditmas Ave, unless they switched to the express track at Ave X, which I don't think would happen. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.
        Message Number: 758935
        Posted by: Eric B.
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by Michael on October 31, 1997 at 22:55:48: I think bringing another line out there makes more sense than alternating one line. On what headways will these express and local trains operate?
        
        Subject: Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.
        Message Number: 759164
        Posted by: Bill from S.I.
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by Scruffy on November 02, 1997 at 17:58:34: The staircases are not covered up. They are behind thoes stainless steel doors on the upper level, they are in bad shape.
        
        Subject: Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.
        Message Number: 759193
        Posted by: Shunya
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:28 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by Bill from S.I. on November 05, 1997 at 10:43:50: I agree. I have to take the IND F line to my favorite hobby shop and The line is terriblly slow. This is what they(TA) should do. 1. make the F run express in brooklyn from Bergen st. to church ave. 2. Make the G terminate at church ave. so they have some use of the relay tracks. This I think would simplify operation in Brooklyn , and passengers who take the G at late nights won't be scared to death at smith 9st. which i heard has the most killings.....
        
        Subject: Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.
        Message Number: 759243
        Posted by: Anthony Pardi
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by Shunya on November 05, 1997 at 19:35:24: AT one time g service operated to Church ave. and there once was an F express service. as anyone knows service was curtailed due to budget problems. Now with the increase in ridership the highest since 1972 I truly doubt we'll see express service ever returned. The lower level at Bergen st isn't fit for human use no less an animal.
        
        Subject: Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.
        Message Number: 759347
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by Shunya on November 05, 1997 at 19:35:24: Here is small history that an NYCTA person told me in the 1970s why the 1967-1970(?) combined F express, G (originally GG) local rush hour service between Bergen Street and Church Avenue was eliminated. Originally, all rush-hour F trains ran express between the two stops, stopping only at 7th Avenue. The people at local stops in Park Slope and Carroll Gardens complained that 1) they no longer had direct service to Manhattan, 2) half of them had to then climb a flight of stairs at Bergen Street, 3)the local did not run often enough. Also, they were the majority of the F train riders, because the McDonald Avenue line has low ridership. This is why at one time they could provide F locals and F expresses south of Church Avenue. They tried to fix this in 1969 by having half the F trains run local between Bergen St. and Church Avenue, but this just ruined service for everyone, all the way down McDonald Avenue. Obviously the first two complaints are hard to fix. The third is easy, just have extra short-run G trains terminate at the 3-track Bedford-Nostrand Station. Then even if people have to change trains at Bergen St. or 7th Avenue, they at least will not have a longer trip home. The G train problem on the Crosstown Line, the Bergen-Church Local Express problem, the abandoned Court St. IND station, and the 60th St. and 63rd St. Queens Plaza connections all stem from the original IND plan to have no rush hour locals in Brooklyn or Queens go to Manhattan. Since people loved expresses, and would switch to them as soon as possible, only expresses from these two boroughs would go to Manhattan. Locals would just be 3-car (or 6-car rush) trains to connect people with the expresses. What a mistaken idea that was, though logically it looks beautiful. Soon the Court St. station was abandoned and all Fulton St. trains went into Manhattan because of overcrowding. The 60th street connection was built to have half the locals on the IND Queens line go directly to Manhattan via Broadway (BMT). The 63rd St connection will now allow ALL IND Queens Line locals to go into Manhattan, and G trains will probably always terminate at Queens Plaza after that connection is built. What a lot of money spent because of being too clever by half in 1932!

Thread title: Steve, etc. (758793)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:33:28 1997, by Sammy

Subject: Steve, etc.
Message Number: 758793
Posted by: Sammy
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:28 1997

OK Steve, I agree. Enough is enough. Firstly, Trump was hypothetical. As I said, hypothetical, so don't get in a bad way over it. REMEMBER: HYPOTHETICAL!!! Secondly. Want to know why I complain? Here's a golden example. Last night, while waiting for the 6 at Astor Place, it took a local 35 minutes to show up. That's pathetic. In that time: 4 express trains passed uptown; 3 express trains passed downtown; 2 locals passed downtown. A bad experience you say? I don't think so sir. And what irks me even more are the attitudes of all involved. Aske the token clerk what's going on and she looks at you like your from Mars. I'd love to see for once, a tokenm clerk pick up a phone and call up someone down the line and ask "what is going on?". No service, no information, no apologies and bad attitudes. That's today's MTA and unions. Who gives a damn if I waited 20 days for a train? Certainly not the MTA or the unions. Just think. If an announcement was made, I could have gotten a transfer ticket (presuming that the clerk was feeling like giving one out) so I could make ALTERNATE TRAVEL PLANS AND NOT HAVE TO SHOW UP LATE FOR WORK!!!!!!!!! This costs the tax paying public billions in productivity day after day. How about we make the MTA and the unions responsible for idiotic situations such as this? The MTA's short sighted views will cost numerous neighborhoods any economic gains they have gained during the past bull market run. Greenpoint and Williamsburgh will survive, but with less than the economic revival they should get because of idiotic measures like cutting off the G train at Court Square, not supplimenting it with bus service, etc. Its about time the public fought back, and I aim to do it.
- Subject: Re: Steve, etc.
- Message Number: 758799
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:33 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Steve, etc. posted by Sammy on October 30, 1997 at 08:23:38: There seems to be an unwritten law in transit operations called "Keep the rider in the dark". Don't blame it on the Unions. Here in Sacramento, we have a 10 year old system of 40 or so Light Rail vehicles. They bristle with communication devices, including the ability to yell at pedestrians. But there is no provision for announcements at stations. If there is a problem, all you know is that the train has not shown up. SOMEBODY knows why and how long the delay is likely to last, but they have no way to inform the throngs building up at the stations. It is a problem they could solve for a few thousand dollars, but they don't care to. It is conceiveable that management feels they are not liable for lack of information, but may be for faulty info, so employees are told NOT to give out any. Just for the hell of it, ask a token clerk who is not busy if she is permitted to make a call in such a case. Yeah, I know, you are likely to get another "Man from Mars" look!
  - Subject: Re: Steve, etc.
  - Message Number: 758831
  - Posted by: Nathan
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:58 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Steve, etc. posted by Gary Jacobi on October 30, 1997 at 11:37:09: Hmmm, I know the feeling about being left in the dark. However, we have a system about ten years old too, and in the stations are electronic signs that tell the waiting commuters when the next train is coming and where it is bound for (there is only one line but trains are short-turned in rush hour due to saturation problems) the signs are cheap, nice, and offer some consulation to passengers waiting for trains during snowstorms where trains run hours late (snow tripping off suicide detection systems... :( DUMB!

Thread title: NYCTA Bus Ads (758795)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:33:29 1997, by Garfield A

Subject: NYCTA Bus Ads
Message Number: 758795
Posted by: Garfield A
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:29 1997

Seems like the MTA is jumping on the bandwagon with these new bus ads that take up the entire bus. I first saw these bright ads on the privately owned Queens Surface Corp which operates out of Flushing Queens. Recently being in the city, I 've seen a few MTA busses with the ads only occupying the entire rear of the bus unlike Queens Surface Corp which has the entire bus covered in an ad for most of their fleet. I see this project as a big source of revenue and will add to the surplus that was reported a few weeks ago by the MTA. Besides being a possible money maker, I see the ads as something bright wiping away the filth of scratched windows that is all to common now.
- Subject: Re: NYCTA Bus Ads
- Message Number: 758801
- Posted by: John
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:34 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]NYCTA Bus Ads posted by Garfield A on October 30, 1997 at 08:37:25: I take quite the opposite hand. I beleive that busses with absolutely no advertisements on them -- inside OR out, even posters, give the fleet a more uniform and professional appearence.
  - Subject: Re: NYCTA Bus Ads
  - Message Number: 758816
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:47 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]NYCTA Bus Ads posted by Garfield A on October 30, 1997 at 08:37:25: I think such ads, that take up a whole bus side are a mistake. It looks to much like graffiti and may, in fact, encourage it. Definitely poor judgement by the MTA advertising people
    - Subject: Re: NYCTA Bus Ads
    - Message Number: 758856
    - Posted by: Adam
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:18 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]NYCTA Bus Ads posted by Garfield A on October 30, 1997 at 08:37:25: I don't like the full bus advertisements either. I can't even tell which bus or bus line it is when they are all covered up with an ad. It looks extremely unprofessional and I think they should go back to the simple ads on the side of the bus.
      - Subject: Re: NYCTA Bus Ads
      - Message Number: 758864
      - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: NYCTA Bus Ads posted by Adam on November 01, 1997 at 13:27:49: The process is called "Shrink-wrapping" and depending what the ad customer wants, the vehicle (yes, Boston even does LRV's) is partially or totally covered in a wrapping that can't be seen into, but cam be seen out of. The real fun is how the fleet numbers are applied to the shrink-wrapped vehicle. In Baltimore, the local MTA (Mass Transit Administration) has had several total wrap jobs. At least two were for IKEA, and after 15 years of solid white Flxible 870 /Metros, a bright IKEA yellow bus was a shocker. The real fun was that the only fleet number was a 1" high black number under the driver's window. Made finding the bus in a packed yard fun at 4:30 in the morning when you got 9245 on the 36 line and couldn't find the bus for 25 minutes. (Until the lane next to it was clear and you could see the tiny number. Fun in transit.)
        
        Subject: Re: NYCTA Bus Ads
        Message Number: 758928
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: NYCTA Bus Ads posted by Dan Lawrence on November 02, 1997 at 00:43:51: It would be worth an ugly bus or two to have an IKEA in northern California. In Sacramento, our shrink-wrapped busses feature Cal Worthington!

Thread title: Photos on NYC Subway Resources Home Page (758796)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:33:30 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Photos on NYC Subway Resources Home Page
Message Number: 758796
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:30 1997

Can anyone tell me what subway car that is in the photo where it says "current operations" on NYC Subway Resources home page? Just curious.
- Subject: Re: Photos on NYC Subway Resources Home Page
- Message Number: 758797
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:31 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Photos on NYC Subway Resources Home Page posted by Timothy on October 30, 1997 at 09:14:58: That's an R40-Modified. You can see the large version at [7][LINK]bjunc3.jpg.
  - Subject: Re: Photos on NYC Subway Resources Home Page
  - Message Number: 758878
  - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:36 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Photos on NYC Subway Resources Home Page posted by David Pirmann on October 30, 1997 at 10:36:01: Where was that picture taken??? It's obviously a yard lead but I don't recognize the location. Gerry
    - Subject: Re: Photos on NYC Subway Resources Home Page
    - Message Number: 758892
    - Posted by: David Pirmann
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:46 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Photos on NYC Subway Resources Home Page posted by Gerry O'Regan on November 02, 1997 at 15:36:35: That photo shows the yard lead from the East New York yard, which connects to the westbound "J", facing west. Taken from the "L" platform facing west.
      - Subject: Re: Photos on NYC Subway Resources Home Page
      - Message Number: 759972
      - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
      - Date: Sun Nov 30 11:01:20 1997

Thread title: River of Steel on WNET Nov.6 (758805)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:33:37 1997, by Bill

Subject: River of Steel on WNET Nov.6
Message Number: 758805
Posted by: Bill
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:37 1997

If you missed this program it will be on WNET on Thursday, Nov. 6 at 8:30 PM and again on Tuesday, Nov. 11 at 1:00 AM.

Thread title: Re: Keeping the Riders Informed (was Steve, etc.) (758806)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:33:38 1997, by Bobw

Subject: Re: Keeping the Riders Informed (was Steve, etc.)
Message Number: 758806
Posted by: Bobw
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:38 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Steve, etc. posted by Gary Jacobi on October 30, 1997 at 11:37:09: The same thing happened here in Phila, both with the new Kawasaki trolleys, and to a lesser extent, their new Broad St subway cousins. Operators/conductors would go "nuts" with announcements on stops, time checks, the weather, etc. As soon as a car/train would stop dead in the tunnel, the announcements stopped. You practically had to pry info out of the trolley motormen when this occurred, and they were almost always reluctant to radio in to learn why backups, etc existed. Although the novelty is now gone, the same sort of situation still exists. Go figure.
- Subject: Re: Keeping the Riders Informed (was Steve, etc.)
- Message Number: 759145
- Posted by: Joe M
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:50 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Keeping the Riders Informed (was Steve, etc.) posted by Bobw on October 30, 1997 at 17:27:27: Saw a United Airlines ad yeaterday where they had a bunch of gte agents rport for a meeting and after a long time no one showed up to have a meeting and they started to get mad about what was going on. Finally the supervisor showed up and said see thatw what the customers feel like. Should be part of customer service training everywhere.
  - Subject: Re: Keeping the Riders Informed (was Steve, etc.)
  - Message Number: 759146
  - Posted by: Joe M
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:51 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Keeping the Riders Informed (was Steve, etc.) posted by Bobw on October 30, 1997 at 17:27:27: Saw a United Airlines ad yesterday where a group of gate agents report for a meeting. After a long time no one showed up to begin the meeting and they started to get mad about what was going on. Finally the supervisor showed up and said "See!! Thats how the customers feel when we don't tell them whats going on. Should be part of customer service training everywhere.

Thread title: Burnside Ave. on the 4 (758808)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:33:40 1997, by Lefty

Subject: Burnside Ave. on the 4
Message Number: 758808
Posted by: Lefty
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:40 1997

the way the platforms are arranged there are 2 platforms and the trains stop on the outsides of the platforms. In between the platforms is the middle track used for service trains and whatever.. it seems like the most impractical layout for a station... why is it the way it is? its mad weird...
- Subject: Re: Burnside Ave. on the 4
- Message Number: 758822
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:51 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Burnside Ave. on the 4 posted by Lefty on October 30, 1997 at 20:21:30: This the layout express/local stations on a three track line. There is no express service along Jerome Ave normally, but it is used when trains are occasionally rerouted to the express (center) track. Some other stations with this layout are: Concourse line - Bedford Park Blvd, Kingsbridge Road, Fordham Road, Tremont Ave and 145th Street (lower level) Woodlawn line - 149th St-Grand Concourse (upper level) & White Plains Rd line - Gun Hill Rd/White Plains Road Flushing line - 61 St-Woodside, Junction Blvd and Willets Pt/Shea Stadium just to name a few. There are many other stations like this throughout the system. The center track on some lines are used for peak direction express service such as the (5,6,7,D and J/Z) while others are used when needed.
  - Subject: Re: Burnside Ave. on the 4
  - Message Number: 758911
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:02 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Burnside Ave. on the 4 posted by Lefty on October 30, 1997 at 20:21:30: There may not be express trains running through Burnside Ave on the #4 (or other 3 track stations like Wayne described), but at one time there were express trains or at least plans for them. Budget and ridership cuts and changes over the years forced the TA to change or reduce service. There are even 4 track stations where the "express" tracks are not used, such as 2nd Ave/Houston St in Manhattan, Church Ave and 7th Avenue (F) in Brooklyn, and Pelham Pkwy (#5) in the Bronx. --Mark
    - Subject: Re: Burnside Ave. on the 4
    - Message Number: 758927
    - Posted by: Lefty
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:14 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Burnside Ave. on the 4 posted by Mark S Feinman on November 03, 1997 at 12:43:00: they should run an express 4 in the bronx heading downtown in the afternoon rush hour. that would be one FAST ride down...

Thread title: Delays Vs Information (758811)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:33:43 1997, by Steve

Subject: Delays Vs Information
Message Number: 758811
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:43 1997

In Reply to: [6]Steve, etc. posted by Sammy on October 30, 1997 at 08:23:38: The answer to your question is very simple but very involved. As you can see from the postings below, the problem of communications is not unique to the NYC system nor is it to rail transit. On a recent trip, I was in the Ft. Lauderdale airport and the in-bound plane which was to make my flight out, was late. We were given precious little information, simply because it was unavailable. The same holds true for the NYCT System. Every day, there are at least 100 train delays for almost as many reasons. There are delays due to mechanical failure, customer accidents, employee accidents, fires, police activity, sick customers, switch or signal trouble and vandalism, just to name some. In each of these situations, the crew on the train, reports via radio to The Control Center via radio that they have a _____ problem and are going to investigate it. Then the Console Train Dispatcher passes this information along to the other divisions within the Department of Subways via a network called the 6-wire (yes, just like the one in Pelham 1-2-3). The console train dispatcher must then, not knowing the true nature of the situation or how long the situation will last, decide how to deal with it. Does he hold service back or reroute? He (she) makes the best decision possible based on the info. he has plus his experience. In the mean-time, while control center is trying to deal with the fall-out from the incident, the train crew is trying to deal with the situation to resolve it as quickly as possible. Usually, they are the only personnel on the scene. They can give their full attention to resolving the situation or at least dealing with it or they can (and I hate to use the term) waste time with minute by minute updates. Usually, the crew can resolve the situation in a matter of minutes and get the wheels turning quickly. The fact is that with the little information that is available, and because these situations are so fluid, any information that is passed along to customers would be incorrect by the time it got to them. Customers could be further inconvenienced by causing them to make 10 - 15 minute "detours" to avoid what may be a 5 - 10 minute delay to service. I hope this explains why you might be standing on a platform waiting while your train passes you on an express track without any notice. If you were told to go in the opposite direction to the next express stop to catch your train, by the time you got there, it's likely that the situatin would be over and youd be 2-3 stops further from your destination. However, to blame this these unfortunate instances on union or management indifference is just simplistic.
- Subject: Re: Delays Vs Information
- Message Number: 758818
- Posted by: Sammy
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:48 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Delays Vs Information posted by Steve on October 30, 1997 at 21:21:53: o.k. Steve, you win. Service is great, things are great and there isn't anything wrong with our system.l Guess I should just be like all the other lemmings and shrug and say "that's the city for you". And I guess it would be unreasonble for a token clerk to issue a pass if a train is late or pick up a phone if they see there is a problem. Hmmm. I guess instead of a token clerk picking up a phone and calling down the line (which I suppose they don't have to do because their contract so stipulates they don't) I should just sit there and be thankful when a train does show up. Sorry, but there is no excuse you can give me. Waiting 35 minutes for a train with no explanation and no way to make alternative plans is part of the game, huh? If this was private industry and people had a choice, and service rendered like this, you know what people would say? Sorry, your explanation doesn't cut it. There is no excuse for not picking up a phone, getting information and passing it on to the customers rapidly.
  - Subject: Re: Delays Vs Information
  - Message Number: 758820
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:50 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Delays Vs Information posted by Sammy on October 31, 1997 at 01:50:50: Hey Sammy, Just curious if you have addressed your complaints in writing to the Office of the Chairman of the MTA. If you haven't, you can gripe about things all you want here with little result. Keep in mind that this web site is an unofficial, non-MTA forum which happens to have some MTA/NYCT employees contributing on their own time (none of whom, however, have anything to do with running the site). I usually find that complaining in writing to those who are in a position to deal with the situation is usually better than posting stuff to the Internet :-) -Dave
    - Subject: Re: Delays Vs Information
    - Message Number: 758825
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:54 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Delays Vs Information posted by Sammy on October 31, 1997 at 01:50:50: Give it a rest already. I explained why. If that does not satisfy you, go higher up.
      - Subject: Re: Delays Vs Information
      - Message Number: 758858
      - Posted by: Joe M
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Delays Vs Information posted by David Pirmann on October 31, 1997 at 08:20:02: Well stated

Thread title: Re: Updated Bus electronic desination reading list for NYCT (758812)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:33:44 1997, by michael

Subject: Re: Updated Bus electronic desination reading list for NYCT
Message Number: 758812
Posted by: michael
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:44 1997

In Reply to: [6]Burnside Ave. on the 4 posted by Lefty on October 30, 1997 at 20:21:30: I would like to know if someone has the updated bus electronic desination reading list for NYCT with the ones that have for instance, X17:East Midtown-viaNew Jersey, X11:Travis, B57:Downtown Brooklyn-Fulton Mall but please don't e-mail me the codes that the bus drivers use to change the readings.
- Subject: Re: Updated Bus electronic desination reading list for NYCT
- Message Number: 758814
- Posted by: michael
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:45 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Burnside Ave. on the 4 posted by Lefty on October 30, 1997 at 20:21:30: I would like to know if someone has the updated bus electronic desination reading list for NYCT with the ones that have for instance, X17:East Midtown-viaNew Jersey, X11:Travis, B57:Downtown Brooklyn-Fulton Mall but please don't e-mail me the codes that the bus drivers use to change the readings.

Thread title: Steve? (Redux) (758819)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:33:49 1997, by Sammy

Subject: Steve? (Redux)
Message Number: 758819
Posted by: Sammy
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:49 1997

Oh Steve, by the way, I guess you haven't recently traveled at nights and noticed just how poor service is, have you? (6, G, L,......) Oh and about the Broadway-Lafayette Street uptown connection, Im sure the MTA wouldn't go for it. Makes too much sense. And if they did it would take forever to build because of union work rules. When it takes you an hour and a half for a normal 20-minute ride, and you experience this on a semi-regular nightly basis, we'll see how you feel about things.

Thread title: High speed systems (758821)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:33:51 1997, by Paul

Subject: High speed systems
Message Number: 758821
Posted by: Paul
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:51 1997

I read in somebody's feedback, I think It was Philip Nasadowski. The article read that Metro North, LIRR run at quit high speeds. What is the speed of midday express trains? What is the speed in the Park Ave tunnel? LIRR express trains? Once I saw the speedometer on a LIRR train under the Atlantic Ave tunnel. It read 80 MPH. It was a midday train. Can anyone confirm this?
- Subject: Re: High speed systems
- Message Number: 758824
- Posted by: Nick
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:53 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]High speed systems posted by Paul on October 31, 1997 at 10:22:32: Metro-North trains can run up to 90 MPH, so a speed of 80 MPH on a midday train sounds about right. However, for a train, that isn't very fast. Look at the Bullet Train (Japan), Chunnel (France), Maglev (Japan) and the high-speed Amtraks coming to the Northeast in 1999-they'll be traveling at least 150 MPH!!-NICK
  - Subject: Re: High speed systems
  - Message Number: 758826
  - Posted by: Todd Glickman
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:54 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: High speed systems posted by Nick on October 31, 1997 at 12:24:46: Very true about systems overseas. I rode the "Chunnel" train from Paris to London this past March; max speed is 186 mph, and it is at or close to max speed for long stretches. In contrast, however, while the new AMTRAK trains will be capable of max speeds nearing 150 mph, the substantial reduction in travel time from BOS-NYC will be more from straightening curves, eliminating the change-of-power at New Haven, and other small factors that will all add up. With scheduled three hour train service from downtown BOS to midtown NYC, I wonder if the BOS-NYC market will be able to support two air shuttle services (currently Delta and USAirways - and the peak ONE-WAY fare is $200!).
    - Subject: Re: High speed systems
    - Message Number: 758830
    - Posted by: Nathan
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:58 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: High speed systems posted by Todd Glickman on October 31, 1997 at 12:50:23: When you say the chunnel train, you mean Eurostarm right? (And not the megalithic car carrying trains) Eurostar does hit 186mph (300km/h) in service, mainly on the French side of the chunnel: however, the speed record for the TGV (France) is 515km/h, with service speeds at 300km/h (to be increased to 350 when the TGV NG enters service). About the American Flyer, it is intended to go 150 mph, I just hope the tilt mechanism works right (took 10 years before VIA worked the bugs out of it's tilting trains, let's not mention the British APT... :)
      - Subject: Re: High speed systems
      - Message Number: 758835
      - Posted by: faxman
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:01 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]High speed systems posted by Paul on October 31, 1997 at 10:22:32: i clocked a metro-north new haven train at over 95 after leving standford ct. on a express run to gct
        
        Subject: Re: High speed systems
        Message Number: 758839
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: High speed systems posted by faxman on October 31, 1997 at 19:48:09: I've been on a few fast ones too - One engineer told me that the Speed Control (tm) is supposed to turn off the traction power over 95 (and turn on that cool air whistle sound :), but that this is dependant on the speedometer reading, which if it's off (i.e. too low), will allow the train to actually be faster than 95 before it kicks out. FWIW, the M-2's are good up to 120. I've been on Septic trains that have gotten pretty close to 100 too...
        
        Subject: Re: High speed systems
        Message Number: 758840
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: High speed systems posted by Nathan on October 31, 1997 at 18:46:22: Well, given Slamtrak's record in high speed operations (Metroliner MU's, Turbotrain (tm)), and their overall amazingly good safety record, I don't expect the American Flyer to do too well. I also think the name of it sucks too, if anyone cares. Actually, wasn't American Flyer the company that made S gauge trains years ago????
        
        Subject: Re: High speed systems
        Message Number: 758842
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:07 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: High speed systems posted by Todd Glickman on October 31, 1997 at 12:50:23: Last I heard the electric trains between DC and NYC carried more passengers than al the airlines combined. Boston to NYC could be next
        
        Subject: Re: High speed systems
        Message Number: 759149
        Posted by: Nathan
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: High speed systems posted by Philip Nasadowski on October 31, 1997 at 20:43:45: Yeah, that was American Flyer. I think everyone should give the train a chance, it is certainly not being done the cheap way. I still have to be optimistic and I think that American Flyer will finally bring slAmtrak some recognition: It's about time North America hopped on the High speed bandwagon, one only has to look at the success of Eurostar and the Frog trains (TGV) to see this...

Thread title: Sick Passenger (758827)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:33:55 1997, by Rich

Subject: Sick Passenger
Message Number: 758827
Posted by: Rich
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:55 1997

How does one sick passenger manage to take an entire train out of service? I find this maddening! What am I missing (besides compassion)!?
- Subject: Re: Sick Passenger
- Message Number: 758828
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:56 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Sick Passenger posted by Rich on October 31, 1997 at 14:06:51: From the Dictionary of Euphemisms, 1997 Edition (Chapter 32, Transit Euphemisms): Sick Passenger = Dog Ate My Homework
  - Subject: Re: Sick Passenger
  - Message Number: 758829
  - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:57 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Sick Passenger posted by Rich on October 31, 1997 at 14:06:51: Well since America in general is quick to file a lawsuit, my guess would be that it's a liability issue. I could see it clearly now. - A passenger may get sick or injured, a crew member and/or another TA employee helps the passenger off the train, the train then continues on it's route, later the sick passenger develops or complains of additional injuries, gets a lawyer who files a lawsuit against the TA since they are the employer. In their lawsuit they argue that the proper action for the TA employee(s) would be to not move the sick passenger, and wait for emergency medical personnel to arrive on the scene.
    - Subject: Re: Sick Passenger
    - Message Number: 758836
    - Posted by: Charlie Bonaire
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:02 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Sick Passenger posted by Wayne Johnson on October 31, 1997 at 16:37:21: Wayne, you're exactly right. Perhaps in the "good old days," the train was stopped for a better reason, i.e., compassion. (Or maybe I'm just kidding myself.) But perspective is everything. I doubt the stricken passenger resents the interruption of service.
      - Subject: Re: Sick Passenger
      - Message Number: 758845
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Sick Passenger posted by Rich on October 31, 1997 at 14:06:51: I think Wayne hit it on the head. Law Suits - plain & simple. On the LIRR, the sick passenger is taken off the train (if able) and left in the care of a trainman until medical help arrives. This may also give another explanation as to why a train goes out of service for a sick customer. If the Conductor were to get off the train to look after the sick customer, the train could not operate in service anyway.

Thread title: 100 year old equipment moving people (was re: 100 years) (758832)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:33:59 1997, by Nathan

Subject: 100 year old equipment moving people (was re: 100 years)
Message Number: 758832
Posted by: Nathan
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:33:59 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: 100 Years of Equipment Moving People (was: Re: 93 YEARS!!:What to do for Centennial?) posted by Philip E. Dominguez on October 30, 1997 at 23:07:14: Why doesn't the MTA run some really ancient (Low V maybe??) equipment in regular rush hour service, let the vandals loose and we can be reminded of what the subway was like in the eighties! Speaking of vandalism, why is NYC going for stainless steel cars? I like London Tubes ice...

Thread title: (screwed up previous post) Re: 100 year old equipment moving people (was re: (758834)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:34:01 1997, by .

Subject: (screwed up previous post) Re: 100 year old equipment moving people (was re:
Message Number: 758834
Posted by: .
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:01 1997

Thread title: NYCT vs Sammy (758846)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:34:10 1997, by Steve

Subject: NYCT vs Sammy
Message Number: 758846
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:10 1997

In Reply to: [6]Steve? (Redux) posted by Sammy on October 31, 1997 at 04:20:32: Look, this site should not become the Samantha & Steve Show. If you want to post something, do so but don't try to drag me into every posting. If I feel like responding, I will do so, whether you mention me or not. Now as to your posting: As usual, you are incorrect. I ride the trains to and wrom work every day. Since my area of responsibility operates 24 hours each day, 7 days each week, I'm apt to be riding the trains at any hour of the day or night. If one is to be honest, it would have to be said that service at night is poor compared to the daytime service. The reason for this is two-fold. First, there are dozens of General Orders working each and every night. These involve construction and repair projects which usually involve rerouting trains, delaying trains or even altering schedules. Work is done at night when the least number of customers will be inconvenienced. Second is that the headways on most lines are reduced to twenty minutes after 11 PM. Customer loading just doesn't justify more. If you think this is bad, try taking the LIRR or driving on Long Island after 10:00 PM. Virtually every road is closed for construction and the trains run every hour from 8:14 on (and are packed).
- Subject: Re: NYCT vs Sammy
- Message Number: 758851
- Posted by: David L.
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:14 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]NYCT vs Sammy posted by Steve on November 01, 1997 at 01:28:14: I hate to get in the middle of things, but I'm agreeing with Steve. After reading your posts it seems as if the reason for each of your posts is to pick an argument with him and complain about the MTA's service. If these are goals for each posting, then this is the wrong place to do it. You need to call the MTA- complain to them. Yes, people come on this website to express a little frustration about service on the MTA every now and then and I do sympathize with them, but you have been doing it for the whole week and it is getting pointless and you already lost my sympathy if not everyone else's. Yes, subway service sucks at night, but you're riding a subway system that is old and understand that shit just happens. Be happy that this system operates 24 hours, 7 days per week.
  - Subject: Re: NYCT vs Sammy
  - Message Number: 759113
  - Posted by: Sammy
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:25 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: NYCT vs Sammy posted by David L. on November 01, 1997 at 10:03:24: Pardon me David. Going to the MTA is as usless of an exercise as any you can imagine. The point of me whining and complaining is to express my thoughts in a public forum, which this is the place to do. See consumers and taxpayers have power. And the more people that read my postings and are knowledgeable, the better. Then we can effect change and get what we really need: clean,. safe and RELIABLE service, and not lip service. You have to realize that if this was indeed private industry, the MTA would have been out of business long ago, because no one would put up with this crap. My issue is simple. Im paying for something and I damn better sure get my monies' worth out of it. Until that time I will keep making postings.
    - Subject: Re: NYCT vs Sammy
    - Message Number: 759118
    - Posted by: David Pirmann - web site host
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:29 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: NYCT vs Sammy posted by Sammy on November 04, 1997 at 02:38:07: Sammy, I really think you should be directing your energies into something like the Straphangars Campaign if you want to make a difference. I don't think my web site is the place you should be waging your war. -Dave Pirmann web site host

Thread title: Mr. Apologist (758847)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:34:11 1997, by Sammy

Subject: Mr. Apologist
Message Number: 758847
Posted by: Sammy
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:11 1997

In Reply to: [6]NYCT vs Sammy posted by Steve on November 01, 1997 at 01:28:14: As per usual, you sir, a wrong. Im sure what happened tonight on the Lexington Avenue line was, of course, chalked up to, you guessed it, what we now call the "Steve excuses". It means whatever happens, its o.k. because its part of the "transit experience". Here's the deal. From 11:30 until who knows when, there were no 6 local trains uptown. I was at the Astor Place station, and the platform was double as crowded as you'd see in the rush hour. Once again, the intrepid MTA knew nothing. Was there trouble? Police action? Did anyone have a clue? Naturally, not. Know why? Because no one gives a damn. And we, the tax paying, train-riding public gets screwed. Again, and again. If someone had the brains to call down the line and get an answer, passes could have been handed out and many people could have gone up to Union Square to take an express or the Broadway lines. See, I know delays and alike are invetiable. Not a problem. Its the treatment of the straphanger that gets me pissed off. Sorry. Make that very pissed off. See, if this happens in the private sector, the perpetrators would get excoriated either via the newspapers or television. But see, because this is a government agency where putting hands in peoples' pockets is permissible, you get away with it. As taxpayers, we have the right to: demand accountability for screwups like this one Not be treated like lemmings. Be treated as customers who can buy products. In this case the product is mass transit Be treated with respect and honesty. If a train is delayed, say so. Or take the initative to pick up a phone and call. Until that happens, Mr. Steve, you should be embarrassed and ashamed at your stance. Any wonder why people rather drive in this city?
- Subject: Re: Mr. Apologist
- Message Number: 758859
- Posted by: Charlie Bonaire
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:21 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Mr. Apologist posted by Sammy on November 01, 1997 at 03:02:26: "All cities are mad, but the madness is gallant. All cities are beautiful, but the beauty is grim." -- Christopher Morley
  - Subject: Re: Mr. Apologist
  - Message Number: 758860
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:22 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Mr. Apologist posted by Sammy on November 01, 1997 at 03:02:26: Frankly, Ms Thomas, this is getting boring. My E-Mail is overwhelmingly positive on this issue. In fact, I've only received one that was not supportive and that one was neutral, from our host, explaining why he (rightfully) deleted one of my postings. Having said that, now let me say this: You are absolutely correct. Service at night is less than ideal and with all the construction and maintenance planned for the next year or so, it ain't gonna get no better. So let's just agree to disagree about this one. Now that you know that there will likely be delays on your line, plan on taking another or better still, drive or use a cab. I am not in public relations. I am in car maintenance. I come on this site to relax, perhaps share some information, definitely to learn something and meet some very interesting people, but you,Samantha, are becoming a pebble in my shoe. TAKE A HINT - GIVE IT A REST ALREADY !!!
    - Subject: Re: Mr. Apologist
    - Message Number: 758876
    - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:34 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Mr. Apologist posted by Steve on November 01, 1997 at 18:34:24: To Sammy and Steve: There comes a point where continuation of a discussion is pointless. Steve has a job to do. In his line of work, he is the point man for a lot of the problems in the day to day operation of NYCT. He is also obviously also someone who gains some enjoyment from what he does, and he is a decent enough person to share facts and correct misconceptions about the technical workings of a huge transit system. He also has no control over the work rules which have been established over the years by the Transit Workers Union. Admittedly, they were put in place in an earlier era to prevent the abuse of transit employees by the private owners, and many are no longer applicable or cost effective in the 1990s. In fact, some of those rules are probably a curse upon Steve in the position he holds. The bottom line is that the subway's problems are bigger than any one person can manage. In many cases the solution to a long term problem may entail a myriad of smalled short term problems - witness the Manhattan Bridge. Putting up with various service diversions at night is the price which has to be paid for a 24 hour system. All such matters are inconvenient, but unfortunately - necessary! As far as delays are concerned, the TA's first priority is to correct the problem, especially if lives are endangered. Long delays can result from many events, very few are jumpers or major derailments. Often, especially late at night, there is little personnel and less equipment available to fill in gaps. A replacement train for a breakdown has to come from the far reaches of the system, and that can take over an hour! You can't divert a 5 train to cover a trip on the 6 if the 5 isn't running south of 180th St. If you steal a 4 train to do a 6 trip the 4 now has a big gap too. And it takes time to get a reroute around a broken down train going. So please don't expect the "giant hand" of model railroading fame to reach into the subway and remove the problem. It just can't happen. The other issue is communication. Human nature being what it is, there definite fear of not knowing what is going on, especially when you are trapped in a metal box which is in a dark tunnel filled with exposed high voltage. Conductor's and motormen have radios, and can sometimes glean some idea of what's happening from the messages flying back and forth, but they are probably not allowed to make any public announcements unless they are cleared by officials. The officials, in turn, as I pointed out above are first concerned with resolving the problem. Thus it will happen that announcements are not made, but can blame be placed? The New York Subway is not perfect, but it is pretty darn good. Give the people dedicated to keeping it running a break. And if you really would like the MTA to employ someone to sit around at night and make pronouncements regarding delays, they will be glad to accept your donation of about $70,000 annually to cover his or her salary and benefits. As for myself, I only wan't Steve to keep reading Subtalk, and to keep responding when he feels he can set the record straight. Please remember that participants in this site are here to exchange information, not listen to gripes about the way things are. Let's end this - now! Gerry
      - Subject: Re: Mr. Apologist
      - Message Number: 758880
      - Posted by: Bobw
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Mr. Apologist posted by Gerry O'Regan on November 02, 1997 at 15:27:54: Agree wholeheartedly! This is supposed to be a "fun" site - let's try and keep it that way. There will always be those who believe they can do "it" better, whatever "it" may be, but this often involves changing the conditions that are real and in place (i.e. union contracts, work rules, etc etc). These types of conditions often change at glacial speed. I think, in the real world, we've got to realize this, and while this should not be reason for not trying to change conditions, it is certainly something that must be considered.
        
        Subject: Re: Mr. Apologist
        Message Number: 758901
        Posted by: charlie muller
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Mr. Apologist posted by Charlie Bonaire on November 01, 1997 at 17:13:21: i am sure that there are delays in all the transit systems in other large cities besides us. so sam give it a break. if you have any gripes, write a letter or call the nycta. this is supposed to be a fun site. things do not change overnight. rome and the nycta were not built overnight and the changers will not happen overnight either. i don't like some things about the ta either, like no announcements and sometimes bad service, but give it time. it will change for the better. .
        
        Subject: Re: Mr. Apologist
        Message Number: 758913
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Mr. Apologist posted by charlie muller on November 02, 1997 at 22:49:13: I'd like to comment on the discussion between Sammy and Steve. I'm not here to jump on Sammy, but I feel he/she is venting in the wrong place. I would hope that Sammy is attending the meetings where straphangers can speak out to MTA/NYCT officials. In this whole thing Steve has explained how and why some things happen on the system. I remember during 1986/87 I used to travel from work in Rego Park, Queens to home on the D line in the Bronx and almost every night (approx 11 PM) the D would make local stops along CPW. My point is: I hated this, but I knew that necessary work was taking place and this was the time for it to be done. It seems that the MTA/NYCT cannot win, whatever they do someone somewhere is not happy. I've heard people complain quite often about the system. My opinion is that for the service that's offered and for the price it's provided - I think New Yorkers are very fortunate. I remind people often of how far the TA has come in the last 20 years. Just think about it: 15 years ago nearly every subway car (excluding those assigned to the JFK Express) had graffiti, MDBF rates were not good at all, Many cars had non-working A/C, many buses had non-working A/C, and we had the buses on loan from WMATA. Of course this list could go on, but I think my point here is clear. In terms of reporting problems or making announcements I'm with the group who thinks the first priority is to work on the problem, and/or work on a strategy to solve it. I can relate because I've experienced this in my profession also. I think this site great and I look forward to visiting each day. I'm also grateful that Steve is willing to keep us all informed. I hope he continues to do so. Wayne Johnson
        
        Subject: Re: Mr. Apologist
        Message Number: 758934
        Posted by: Michael Berson
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Mr. Apologist posted by Wayne Johnson on November 03, 1997 at 13:03:34: I completely agree that the accomplishments made by the MTA over the last 15 years have been tremendous. Remember around 1981? Graffiti covered EVERY car. Trains were pulled from service due to Motorman cab windows covered by paint. Remember when the windows in the cars were covered? You did know what station you were in until the doors opened since the windows were covered by paint. Also be thankful that the fleet is now Air-Conditioned. Back in the early 80's, the cars that had A/C did not work very well. Ever try riding in a Downtown #4 on a crowded August day at about 5:00pm without AC? Also, don't forget the string of derailaments and the tunnel fires of around 1981. Also, look at the cleanliness of the cars. Remember R-32's in the early 80's? Not counting the graffiti, the stainless steel cars were filthy. Now the cars are washed. I don't believe cars were ever washed back then. So. before complaining of how bad the system is, realize how the system has turned around in the past 15 years. Sure it needs maintenance, but anything 93 years old needs to be "tuned-up." Especially, when during the late 60's, 70's and early 80's, tune-ups were never performed.

Thread title: Rockaway Branch, Putnam et al. (758849)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:34:12 1997, by A.Scarpinato

Subject: Rockaway Branch, Putnam et al.
Message Number: 758849
Posted by: A.Scarpinato
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:12 1997

Saw a great NY1 report on reviving the Rockaway line as an alternatve to A service from Manhattan and a one seat ride to the airport from Penn station. We need to write Mayor G and Governor P. in support of these efforts. It made me womder, about the rest of the abandoned right of ways if they can be made part of a revived rail, subway extension, or trolley system. Think of the possiblities: Service from Getty Square (Putnam) via express on Jerome line, Super express through Kissena Corrider from Eastern Queens and of course, Rail freight and passenger service from a double tunnel from Brooklyn via the abandoned South Beach (from Hylan Blvd) and North Shore Staten Island Railway, or lite rail from the Verranzo on same Verrazano on same.( Incidentally, are there any actual plans for reviving passenger service on the North Shore)
- Subject: Re: Rockaway Branch, Putnam et al.
- Message Number: 758853
- Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:16 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Rockaway Branch, Putnam et al. posted by A.Scarpinato on November 01, 1997 at 08:31:51: Well, you can't use the South Beach Branch, most of it has been built over. One developer even built right on the embankment, using a Bridge abutment as a retaining wall (the wall is stamped '1939') As for the North Shore, I doubt we'll even see planning for passenger service anytime soon. Much of the ROW has been encroached on, and in the area of Snug Harbor, it's literally been wased away. Ties just hanging from rails, and no ground under them. The West Shore Branch (Arlington-Travis) is being restored as we speak. A new grade crossing has been built on South Avenue (Gates, signals, the works, where there was nothing before.) to serve the VISY paper recycling plant. Also, the line is being restored to the Howland Hook Marine Terminal. -Hank
  - Subject: Re: Rockaway Branch, Putnam et al.
  - Message Number: 758868
  - Posted by: Lou
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:28 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Rockaway Branch, Putnam et al. posted by Hank Eisenstein on November 01, 1997 at 12:56:39: When I lived in Staten Island 2 yrs ago there was talk about turning the North Shore Line into a guided busway....
    - Subject: Re: Rockaway Branch, Putnam et al.
    - Message Number: 758894
    - Posted by: John
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:48 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Rockaway Branch, Putnam et al. posted by Lou on November 02, 1997 at 10:51:08: There was a consideration to do the same thing to the Newark Subway back in the 1950s. Does anything like that actually exist anywhere? I know about the bus tunnel in Seattle, but are there any others?
      - Subject: Re: Rockaway Branch, Putnam et al.
      - Message Number: 758903
      - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:55 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Rockaway Branch, Putnam et al. posted by Lou on November 02, 1997 at 10:51:08: The Tottenville line may soon see freight operations, as well. AT&T Nassau Metals (they recycle telephone cables) is expanding their operation, and may resume shipping and recieving by rail. In that case, the connection from the North Shore to the Tottenville line would be rebuilt, and MTA would lose their FRA exemption from Locomotive inspection for the MU cars. -Hank

Thread title: Metro-North abandoned (758862)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:34:23 1997, by Greg

Subject: Metro-North abandoned
Message Number: 758862
Posted by: Greg
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:23 1997

Are there any abandoned stations on the Metro-North lines, except in Manhattan? If so, what are the names of some? On the Hudson branch, I think around the Terrytown station area, is what looks like some sort of correction facility. Does any body know the name, or seen it before?
- Subject: Re: Metro-North abandoned
- Message Number: 758863
- Posted by: ~airplane
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:24 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Metro-North abandoned posted by Greg on November 01, 1997 at 20:05:26: There are abandoned Metro-North stations outside of Manhattan. Just last year, Montrose and Crugers stations (Hudson Line) were abandoned when the new Cortlandt station was built. As for the prison, I've seen it before, but I don't recall its name.
  - Subject: Re: Metro-North abandoned
  - Message Number: 758902
  - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:54 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Metro-North abandoned posted by ~airplane on November 01, 1997 at 22:48:13: That prison is Sing Sing. It's right next to (and around, and above) the Ossining Station. -Hank

Thread title: Amtrak strike's effect on LIRR, NJT, and SEPTA (758867)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:34:27 1997, by Joshua Caesar

Subject: Amtrak strike's effect on LIRR, NJT, and SEPTA
Message Number: 758867
Posted by: Joshua Caesar
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:27 1997

I am going to be traveling to Philadelphia next weekend (Nov7-9). My group planned to go by taking the subway to Penn Station, NJT to Trenton, and then SEPTA from Trenton to Philly. I know the LIRR has made an agreement to use Penn Station during the weekdays, but what about NJT and SEPTA. The whole reason that the LIRR had to make the special agreement to use Penn station is that Amtrak owns and operates it, and doesn't Amtrak own the whole route to Philadelphia? If they go on strike, will there be any commuter rail service at all along the route? JC Josh Caesar studlyjc@aol.com
- Subject: Re: Amtrak strike's effect on LIRR, NJT, and SEPTA
- Message Number: 758870
- Posted by: subway-buff
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:29 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Amtrak strike's effect on LIRR, NJT, and SEPTA posted by Joshua Caesar on November 02, 1997 at 09:36:36: SEPTA has this info on their web page: www.septa.com (or www.septa.org) from trenton there would be no train. You could get to West Trenton and take the R3 which will run
  - Subject: Re: Amtrak strike's effect on LIRR, NJT, and SEPTA
  - Message Number: 758893
  - Posted by: John
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:47 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Amtrak strike's effect on LIRR, NJT, and SEPTA posted by subway-buff on November 02, 1997 at 12:13:13: From the Port Authority, I think there is either a Suburban Transit, or NJ Transit bus running to Trenton or Philadelphia. Or else, you can take the #319 - NJ Transit from the PABT to Atlantic City and transfer to the #551 NJ Transit bus to Philadelphia. I don't know if the Atlantic City train will be affected or not.

Thread title: AMTRAK Settlement (758871)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:34:30 1997, by Todd Glickman

Subject: AMTRAK Settlement
Message Number: 758871
Posted by: Todd Glickman
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:30 1997

We (WCBS Newsradio-88) are now reporting that the AMTRAK dispute has been settled. There will be no strike. LIVE in Central Park at the Marathon Finish Line with the Portable Weather Center, I'm Todd Glickman, Newsradio-88.
- Subject: Re: AMTRAK Settlement
- Message Number: 758873
- Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:32 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]AMTRAK Settlement posted by Todd Glickman on November 02, 1997 at 12:21:28: Hope you are correct... Gerry
  - Subject: Re: AMTRAK Settlement
  - Message Number: 758887
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:43 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]AMTRAK Settlement posted by Todd Glickman on November 02, 1997 at 12:21:28: Great news Todd. Thanks

Thread title: Re: Mystery tunnel - Money Train (758874)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:34:32 1997, by Joe-M

Subject: Re: Mystery tunnel - Money Train
Message Number: 758874
Posted by: Joe-M
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:32 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: Mystery tunnel and South American R-46 posted by Charles Fiori on October 30, 1997 at 15:21:49: How was the movie about "The Money Train"? The previews looked lame so I did not see it.
- Subject: Re: Mystery tunnel - Money Train
- Message Number: 758889
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:44 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Mystery tunnel - Money Train posted by Joe-M on November 02, 1997 at 14:57:50: From a technical standpoint, the movie was terrible. I won't bore you with all of the details. Aside from that, Wesley Snipes, Woody Harrelson, Robert Blake and Jenifer Lopez make the most of it with some pretty good performances. See it but don't buy it. A rental should do.
  - Subject: Re: Mystery tunnel - Money Train
  - Message Number: 758896
  - Posted by: John
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:49 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Mystery tunnel - Money Train posted by Steve on November 02, 1997 at 20:32:44: Yeah - R30s on the #5 and a 3-car B train -- gimmie a break!!
    - Subject: Re: Mystery tunnel - Money Train
    - Message Number: 758899
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:52 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Mystery tunnel - Money Train posted by John on November 02, 1997 at 22:21:11: Yeah - not to mention "Bleed the brakes!". Anyone know how to bleed an air brake system?
      - Subject: Re: Mystery tunnel - Money Train
      - Message Number: 758907
      - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Mystery tunnel - Money Train posted by Steve on November 02, 1997 at 22:29:18: There's art that imitates reality and reality that imitates art. And then there's Hollywood! Some people should have their artistic license revoked :)
        
        Subject: Re: Mystery tunnel - Money Train
        Message Number: 758916
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Mystery tunnel - Money Train posted by John on November 02, 1997 at 22:21:11: Ha! A 3 car train of R-30 "married pairs". Only in Hollywood!! --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Mystery tunnel - Money Train
        Message Number: 758926
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:13 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Mystery tunnel - Money Train posted by Gerry O'Regan on November 03, 1997 at 12:10:09: I thought the "tripper" was a bit amusing also.
        
        Subject: Re: Mystery tunnel - Money Train
        Message Number: 758938
        Posted by: Joe-M
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:22 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Mystery tunnel - Money Train posted by Wayne Johnson on November 03, 1997 at 17:16:04: Well I will rent the movie and have a look, but I won't expect to learn anything about the system. Thanks
        
        Subject: Re: Mystery tunnel - Money Train
        Message Number: 759123
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Mystery tunnel - Money Train posted by Joe-M on November 03, 1997 at 23:25:10: SAVE YOUR MONEY! Do NOT rent "Money Train" It now appears occasionally on non-premium cable, and nothing is exactly what it is worth; it stinks!
        
        Subject: Re: Mystery tunnel - Money Train
        Message Number: 759138
        Posted by: John
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Mystery tunnel - Money Train posted by Gary Jacobi on November 04, 1997 at 13:41:30: Well, not exactly nothing. I would pay a few bucks just to see Jennifer Lopez . . . !! :-)

Thread title: Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service (758881)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:34:38 1997, by Michael

Subject: Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service
Message Number: 758881
Posted by: Michael
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:38 1997

I think its about time NYCT restores 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service that was once operated between 1968 & 1976, this is my plan: 1)Operate the "M" train from Bay Parkway, up 6th Av from Essex St to 21st St-LI City weekdays & keep the current shuttle service during evenings, nights & weekends the way it is. 2)Extend peak-period "J" trains to Bay Parkway replacing the "M" trains & all weekday "J" trains would stop at Bowery but the "Z" would continue to bypass Bowery & terminate midday "J" trains at Broad St.
- Subject: Re: Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service
- Message Number: 758883
- Posted by: Daniel A. Valles
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:40 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service posted by Michael on November 02, 1997 at 16:21:30: Are you sure wou will be able to that? I think that the only way the M would service the 6th Avenue line from Essex St. would be from the Williamsburg bridge... If you take a look at the track maps, the track is going toward the Queens-bound F train track after Essex Street, and coming from the Brooklyn-bound F train going towards the Essex Street station...
  - Subject: Re: Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service
  - Message Number: 758891
  - Posted by: Bobw
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:45 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service posted by Daniel A. Valles on November 02, 1997 at 17:44:27: There may have been a mistake here. Perhaps Michael was trying to say that M trains should NOT go to/from Bay Parkway, but between Metropolitan Ave and midtown via the 6th Ave line thru the connection between the W'burg Bridge line and the 6th Ave line. This is do-able. It also seems to make quite a bit of sense. A couple of early morning and pre-PM rush put-ins from East NY yard could also travel from Bway Junction straight thru to 6th Ave as M trains to avoid problems with put-ins. Can it work?
    - Subject: Re: Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service
    - Message Number: 758900
    - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:53 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service posted by Michael on November 02, 1997 at 16:21:30: Can't do that. Bay Parkway is on the West End line, not the B'way Bklyn line. -Hank
      - Subject: Re: Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service
      - Message Number: 758905
      - Posted by: Michael Berson
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service posted by Bobw on November 02, 1997 at 21:15:38: When this service was provided by the KK, it was unpopular because the KK made all local stops in Brooklyn. When I used to ride it, I would always change from the KK to the QJ as the QJ ran express along Broadway-Brooklyn. I think the only way a 6th Avenue-Broadway Brooklyn service would be successful would be for it to run express in Brooklyn. How about this idea...begin the service from Rockaway Parkway, take the cutoff to Broadway-Brooklyn, run express from Broadway Junction to Marcy Avenue, across the Williamsburgh Bridge, then local along 6th Avenue in Manhattan. Only problem is, where would it terminate? Queensbridge? 168th Street-Washington Heights? Jamaica Center? The old KK used to terminate at 57th Street-6th Avenue when the B ran to Washington Heights.
        
        Subject: Re: Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service
        Message Number: 758908
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service posted by Michael Berson on November 02, 1997 at 23:23:53: Where would it terminate, indeed? How about knocking down the "fake" wall at Lexington Ave (the connection to the 2nd Ave subway) and having the trains terminate there? Have the current tracks become the terminal; have the outside tracks continue into Queens. Not sure about the cost of this though. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service
        Message Number: 758929
        Posted by: A. Scarpinato
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service posted by Michael Berson on November 02, 1997 at 23:23:53: Even better would be a "KL" which would run Broadway Brooklyn local, with the Z, and a K out of Rockaway Parkway which would run express with the J. Why not financilly practical but good,would be third tracking the J along Jamaica avenue to Crescent St, with a switch for express stops at Woodhaven and 121 street.It could then go local from Crescent to Alabama Ave, and back to express This would make the J express from Jamaica Center and might finally be competitive with the E and F to downtown.
        
        Subject: Re: Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service
        Message Number: 758933
        Posted by: Eric Bolden
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service posted by Michael Berson on November 02, 1997 at 23:23:53: Maybe it was unpopular because rush hours (the only time it ran) was not the time it was most needed. Alot of people transfer from the F to the J on evenings and weekends, and the Myrtle line has no service into the city. I have suggested joining the M to the C (perhaps then calling it the "K"), providing service from uptown to Metropolitan, which now requires four trains. Only now, that is unlikely, because the C is joining the OPTO program and will have to use 75 ft. cars, which cannot operate over the bridge while there is service in the opposite direction. Another idea, for future Manhattan Bridge arrangements (6th Av side closed, fully closed, fully open, in each case with a shuttle running to 21st St.) have service between 21st St. and Metropolitan. Another idea, is to send the M to Chambers, and through-route the IND service with the J, or perhaps to Canarsie.

Thread title: Bus electronic desination reading list for NYCT (758882)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:34:39 1997, by michael

Subject: Bus electronic desination reading list for NYCT
Message Number: 758882
Posted by: michael
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:39 1997

If anyone has the latest Bus electronic desination reading list for NYCT for Yukon, Castleton & Ulmer Park bus depots, please e-mail them to me.

Thread title: NO STRIKE--NO TROUBLES (758895)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:34:49 1997, by John

Subject: NO STRIKE--NO TROUBLES
Message Number: 758895
Posted by: John
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:49 1997

Just heard on the news - Amtrak will not be going on strike next Wednesday. All commuter service will operate normally. However, Amtrak is in bad shape financially -- they are in serious danger of going the same way as the Pennsylvania Railroad, the Penn Central, Pan Am, and Eastern.

Thread title: New R110A photos (758904)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:34:56 1997, by David Pirmann

Subject: New R110A photos
Message Number: 758904
Posted by: David Pirmann
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:56 1997

Steve Kreisler has sent me some photos of the R110A, of which we previously had none, so check them out at the [6]R110A page. Thanks Steve! --Dave
- Subject: Re: New R110A photos
- Message Number: 758918
- Posted by: Nick
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:07 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]New R110A photos posted by David Pirmann on November 02, 1997 at 23:16:43: Thanks so much, Steve....I've been waiting for these!!!-NICK

Thread title: Atlantic Ave. station (758906)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:34:58 1997, by Mecca

Subject: Atlantic Ave. station
Message Number: 758906
Posted by: Mecca
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:34:58 1997

A friend from the Bronx and I were driving down Atlantic Ave. near the Caldor's Plaza a few weeks ago, and were stopped at a traffic lite, when we saw across the street what looks like an abandoned subway station. It had a political campaign banner from '93 or '94 on it. We were wondering if it is an abandoned station, or just an unused entrance, how long it's been out of use and why. Thanks.
- Subject: Re: Atlantic Ave. station
- Message Number: 758910
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:01 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Atlantic Ave. station posted by Mecca on November 03, 1997 at 02:21:34: I don't know where Caldor has located, but if we are talking about Atlantic and 5th and/or Flatbush, you may have been looking at the street level station house for the LIRR. Trains still use it down below, where there are direct subway connections, but very little of it's passengers go upstairs. It looked derelict thirty five years ago, and I can't imagine it has gotten any better with age.
  - Subject: Re: Atlantic Ave. station
  - Message Number: 759122
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:32 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Atlantic Ave. station posted by Gary Jacobi on November 03, 1997 at 12:40:23: Derelict it still is. IIRC, the only reason why it is still standing is that it was declared a historic landmark. Whether or not it will be rehabilitated as part of the Flatbush Terminal reconstruction, I don't know. --Mark
    - Subject: Re: Atlantic Ave. station
    - Message Number: 759167
    - Posted by: Bill from S.I.
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:08 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Atlantic Ave. station posted by Gary Jacobi on November 03, 1997 at 12:40:23: If what you saw was a little white building in a triangle at 4th ave., Flatbush ave. and Atlantic Ave. this use to be one of the entrances to the IRT subway. It's been closed up for a long time and from that I heard it is a landmark.

Thread title: Lower Level of Bergen St (Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.) (758912)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:35:02 1997, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Lower Level of Bergen St (Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn.)
Message Number: 758912
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:02 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by David L. on November 02, 1997 at 20:35:40: I do not recall if staircases existed on the Bergen St upper platform leading directly down to the lower platform. In other words, directly from the upper platform to the lower platform without having to walk through a hallway. (Kind of like 9th Ave - 39th St Brooklyn where you walk from the "B" line platform directly onto the old Culver platform). If you dug staright down from the upper platform, you'd end up on the lower platform. So there's nothing directly underneath that is covered up. I do know that when the station was renovated, the staircases were left alone and still exist behind doors in the new wall. These doors are normally locked. If trains were rerouted to the express tracks, it is not likely that these trains would stop at Bergen St. The lower level was not redone. In fact, all the tilework was removed from the walls and never replaced. Some of the old black lettering on white background "Bergen" signs still exist on the supporting beams but no other signs are left. (And you can barely make them out because of the accumulation of steel dust). You can still see the hallways leading to the staircases to the upper level. There is no flourescent lighting and the station is mostly darkened, except for a few incandecent bulbs here and there. The station itself looks like it is under construction, with its finished platform and smooth concrete walls, but no tiles. If I have a chance this week, I'll take a look my video that I have of it in slow motion and see what else I may have missed. --Mark

Thread title: R110 Running times (758919)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:35:08 1997, by Nick

Subject: R110 Running times
Message Number: 758919
Posted by: Nick
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:08 1997

Do any of the R110 trains (both A and B) run on weekends? For the weekdays, do they run all the time, or just sometimes? Basically, what's their schedule?
- Subject: Re: R110 Running times
- Message Number: 758930
- Posted by: Lou from middletown
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:16 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]R110 Running times posted by Nick on November 03, 1997 at 13:27:43: I know for sure the 110b doesnt run on Mondays- a conductor on the A told me so (on a Monday,of course!), so you can take it from there....

Thread title: You Can't Take a P At All (Re: Take the P train - sooner than you think) (758921)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:35:09 1997, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: You Can't Take a P At All (Re: Take the P train - sooner than you think)
Message Number: 758921
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:09 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Take the P train - sooner than you think posted by Steve on November 01, 1997 at 18:44:22: .... Amtrak and the BLE recently announced an agreement that would prevent a strike. It also removes any possibility of a P train. Shucks - it would have been a fun ride! --Mark
- Subject: Re: You Can't Take a P At All (Re: Take the P train - sooner than you think)
- Message Number: 758932
- Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:18 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]You Can't Take a P At All (Re: Take the P train - sooner than you think) posted by Mark S Feinman on November 03, 1997 at 13:29:50: Why can't I take a P? Where will I go????? :>
  - Subject: Re: You Can't Take a P At All (Re: Take the P train - sooner than you think)
  - Message Number: 759124
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:34 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]You Can't Take a P At All (Re: Take the P train - sooner than you think) posted by Mark S Feinman on November 03, 1997 at 13:29:50: I've enjoyed the fun with "Take a P", but why wait so long when we have had #1 and #2 to giggle about for decades?
    - Subject: Re: You Can't Take a P At All (Re: Take the P train - sooner than you think)
    - Message Number: 759139
    - Posted by: John
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:45 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: You Can't Take a P At All (Re: Take the P train - sooner than you think) posted by Gary Jacobi on November 04, 1997 at 13:55:16: I don't know about the 1 and 2, but there is the #6 and 9. :-)
      - Subject: Re: You Can't Take a P At All (Re: Take the P train - sooner than you think)
      - Message Number: 759183
      - Posted by: RAC93
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: You Can't Take a P At All (Re: Take the P train - sooner than you think) posted by John on November 04, 1997 at 18:15:29: Gee, I would have been funny if there was a local train following that route back in the 70's (a PP)!!
        
        Subject: Re: You Can't Take a P At All (Re: Take the P train - sooner than you think)
        Message Number: 759195
        Posted by: Shunya
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: You Can't Take a P At All (Re: Take the P train - sooner than you think) posted by RAC93 on November 05, 1997 at 16:23:11: I saw the P train at brighton beach once, it was mad wierd, the P was in a white circle with no Via line, and it's destionation signs were like times sq. to ditmas or something... i was suprised
        
        Subject: Re: You Can't Take a P At All (Re: Take the P train - sooner than you think)
        Message Number: 759210
        Posted by: Nathan
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: You Can't Take a P At All (Re: Take the P train - sooner than you think) posted by RAC93 on November 05, 1997 at 16:23:11: Oh dear, I can see it now... "Take a #6, then a #9, after that you can take a #2 (only if you feel like it) or you could just take a P. :)

Thread title: Money Train - Car #51050 (758922)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:35:10 1997, by Steve

Subject: Money Train - Car #51050
Message Number: 758922
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:10 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Mystery tunnel - Money Train posted by Joe-M on November 02, 1997 at 14:57:50: One thing I should have commented on was the "Money Train" which was used to make the movie. The elaborate car, which was used in the filming of the movie was an actual subway car (R-17 I believe. The car was converted at Coney Island Overhaul Shop and is usually kept outside of the shop (visible from the F train south of the Avenue X station). I have a very mediocre scan of a polaroid of the car available but hope to get some better 35MM Shots soon.
- Subject: Re: Money Train - Car #51050
- Message Number: 758923
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:11 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Money Train - Car #51050 posted by Steve on November 03, 1997 at 13:34:09: 'Ello, We already have some shots of it, at [7]http://www.nycsubway.org/album/moneytrain/ :-) Dave
  - Subject: Re: Money Train - Car #51050
  - Message Number: 758924
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:12 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Money Train - Car #51050 posted by David Pirmann on November 03, 1997 at 13:50:18: Thanks Dave, Much better shots than mine!

Thread title: Re: Restore "F" express service in Queens (758925)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:35:12 1997, by Prfnoff

Subject: Re: Restore "F" express service in Queens
Message Number: 758925
Posted by: Prfnoff
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:12 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: Restore "F" express service in Brooklyn. posted by Michael Berson on October 30, 1997 at 21:19:54: If I remember right, in the days when the 63rd St and Archer Ave subways had just started running, the R service ran all the way to 179th St, not 71-Continental, and the F was still express in that area. I don't know why the F and R were switched.

Thread title: Street Renamings NYC 1995-1997 (758936)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:35:21 1997, by chris

Subject: Street Renamings NYC 1995-1997
Message Number: 758936
Posted by: chris
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:21 1997

Does anyone have a list ,of all street renamings ,in NYC,,ie===Mother Gaston--old Stone Av I know the Interboro Parkway just changed to an unknown name listing' I am looking for all changes from 1995 thank you christof@webtv.net
- Subject: Re: Street Renamings NYC 1995-1997
- Message Number: 759120
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:31 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Street Renamings NYC 1995-1997 posted by chris on November 03, 1997 at 20:51:39: The Interboro Parkway was changed to Jackie Robinson Parkway.
  - Subject: Re: Street Renamings NYC 1995-1997
  - Message Number: 759130
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:38 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Street Renamings NYC 1995-1997 posted by chris on November 03, 1997 at 20:51:39: If anyone has this Street Name changing info, please post it here, as I as well as others would be interested. I can't believe they changed Stone! This screws up the ancient Brooklyn gag line of " Did you hear about the man who was walking down Pitkin avenue and turned into Stone?" "Turned into Mother Gaston" just doesn't get the same reaction.
    - Subject: Re: Street Renamings NYC 1995-1997
    - Message Number: 759153
    - Posted by: chris
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:57 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Street Renamings NYC 1995-1997 posted by Wayne Johnson on November 04, 1997 at 09:32:36: do you know of any others,,in the 5 boros,,besides'the interboro parkway
      - Subject: Re: Street Renamings NYC 1995-1997
      - Message Number: 759169
      - Posted by: sdc
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Street Renamings NYC 1995-1997 posted by chris on November 05, 1997 at 00:31:22: try Malcolm X Blvd in 2 boros and Fredrik Douglass bblvd in manhattan and martin luther King whatever in Manhattan. , any others? Foti
        
        Subject: Re: Street Renamings NYC 1995-1997
        Message Number: 759380
        Posted by: Beep Beep
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Street Renamings NYC 1995-1997 posted by sdc on November 05, 1997 at 12:08:09: The Richmond Parkway was re-named the 'Korean War Veterans Memorial Parkway'. The new signs should be up in '98 or '99.
        
        Subject: Re: Street Renamings NYC 1995-1997
        Message Number: 759434
        Posted by: fotios-sdc
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Street Renamings NYC 1995-1997 posted by Beep Beep on November 12, 1997 at 08:35:51: 79th st in manhattan bet. the Park and Madison has been renamed Patriarch Bartholomew way for the Ecumenical patriarch of Constantinople (ahem Istanbul) fotios

Thread title: Add new NYCT bus service on Staten Island to & from New Jersey & Brooklyn (758937)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:35:21 1997, by Mike

Subject: Add new NYCT bus service on Staten Island to & from New Jersey & Brooklyn
Message Number: 758937
Posted by: Mike
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:21 1997

I think its about time that NYCT adds new bus service from Staten Island to both Brooklyn & New Jersey on both the Gothels & Outerbridge Crossing to serve new markets. If you happen to know any of your plans or heard of anything on this happening, please e-mail me.

Thread title: Follow-up - Rush Hour West End Express (758943)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:35:26 1997, by Mike Rothenberg

Subject: Follow-up - Rush Hour West End Express
Message Number: 758943
Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:26 1997

A number of lines have 3-track/station set-ups for potential peak direction express service. Some are used (e.g.,D/C,7,J/Z/M) while some aren't. (e.g.,4,F,B/M). What are the costs & patronage on each line? Can it support the proposed service improvement? West End express service sounds good, but what would be the impact on the essentially-overlapping N line? Would its service need to be reduced or eliminated? I think there once was peak F express service to Kings Highway, where those trains turned around, while F locals continued on to Coney Island. But it was dropped (why?). Would a combination of better B/M & F service threaten the nearby N's existence? Should it?

Thread title: Side signs-R32-38 (758945)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:35:28 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Side signs-R32-38
Message Number: 758945
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:28 1997

Some may care and some may not, but in looking over my collection of signs, it seems an interesting insight can be gained into planning at the MTA (?) The sign referenced in the title lists as follows (along with the color and symbol): Train to the Plane (lt. bl. cir.); A-Wash Hts.-8 Av-Fulton (dk. bl. cir); C-8 Av-Fulton (dk. bl. cir); C-Concourse-8 Av-Fulton (dk. bl. diamond); H-Rockaway Shuttle (dk bl cir.); E-Queens Blvd.-8 Avenue (dk bl cir.); F-Queens Blvd-6 Av-Culver (orange cir); F-6 Avenue-Culver (orange cir); G-Queens Blvd.-Crosstown (lime gr. cir.); R-Queens Blvd.-Bway-4 Av (yellow cir); R-Queens Blvd.-Broadway (yellow cir); S-63 Street Shuttle (yellow cir); W-Astoria-Broadway (yellow diamond); N-Astoria-Bway-Sea Beach (yellow cir.); B-Broadway-West End (yellow cir.); B-Astoria-Bway-West End (yellow diamond); D, Q-Broadway-Brighton (yellow cir.-2 sep. signs); D-Concourse-6 Av-Brighton (orange circle); D-Concourse-6 Avenue (orange circle); Q-6 Avenue-Brighton (orange circle); B-6 Avenue-West End (orange circle); B-Washington Hts.-6 Av-West End (orange circle); B-West End Shuttle (orange circle); B-Washington Hts.-6 Avenue (orange diamond); K-Washington Hts.-8 Avenue (dk. bl. cir.); S-6 Avenue Shuttle (orange cir.); V-via 6 Avenue (orange cir.); M-Myrtle Av-Nassau St. (brown cir.); M-Myrtle Av Shuttle (brown cir.); M-Myrtle-Nassau-West End (brown diamond); R-Nassau St-4 Avenue (brown diamond); Z (brown cir.-no route designation); J-Jamaica-Nassau St. (brown cir.); J-Jamaica-Nassau-Brighton (brown diamond); L-14 Street-Canarsie (lt. grey cir.); S-Franklin Av Shuttle (lt. grey cir.); P, T, U, X, Y (black letter in white circle, centered); Shuttle Your thoughts are appreciated, as always. Hope you don't mind, I reformatted this list slightly. --Dave
- Subject: Re: Side signs-R32-38
- Message Number: 758949
- Posted by: Charles Fiori (to D.P.)
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:31 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Side signs-R32-38 posted by Charles Fiori on October 09, 1997 at 08:00:59: You da man!!! :-)

Thread title: NYC subway cars operating in other areas (758956)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:35:36 1997, by Lefty

Subject: NYC subway cars operating in other areas
Message Number: 758956
Posted by: Lefty
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:36 1997

are there any of the nyc type subway cars operating on other systems? and if so pictures of em?
- Subject: Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas
- Message Number: 758976
- Posted by: Alan Follett
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:52 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]NYC subway cars operating in other areas posted by Lefty on October 09, 1997 at 16:13:44: One instance of this existed in the Bay Area. From 1/18/43 to 9/30/45 Key System operated ancient wooden ex-IRT cars on the Richmond Shipyard Railway, a hastily-constructed wartime accommodation built to carry Kaiser Shipyard workers between Emeryville and Richmond. Paradoxically, much newer and more substantial steel cars from the then recently-abandoned Interurban Electric Railway (ex-SP East Bay Electric) were sent south to operate a similar shipyard railway service in southern California.
  - Subject: Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas
  - Message Number: 758977
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:53 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas posted by Alan Follett on October 10, 1997 at 21:44:09: Wow, I never heard that before... ever seen any pictures of this line with the IRT cars? Would be pretty neat..
    - Subject: Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas
    - Message Number: 758984
    - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:58 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas posted by David Pirmann on October 10, 1997 at 22:11:22: The Washington, Baltimore and Annapolis Electric Railroad (WB&A) had a number of NY elevated (Steam) trailers for WWI service. The cars were equipped with electric lights (supplied by the motor cars) and several survivied until the line quit in 1935. None were acquired by the surviving Baltimore & Annapolis, but I believe several were sent to CA for Key System use.
      - Subject: Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas
      - Message Number: 758988
      - Posted by: Alan Follett
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:01 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas posted by David Pirmann on October 10, 1997 at 22:11:22: See Harre W. Demoro's The Key Route, Part 1, pp. 112-116 for photos and text on the Richmond Shipyard Railway and its ex-IRT cars. Alan Follett
        
        Subject: Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas
        Message Number: 758989
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:02 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas posted by Alan Follett on October 11, 1997 at 19:57:44: *grin* that sounds like one of those books I can just pop over and browse in Borders. :-) Not!
        
        Subject: Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas
        Message Number: 758991
        Posted by: Mark Kavanagh
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas posted by Alan Follett on October 10, 1997 at 21:44:09: Two ot those wooden IRT cars that operated on the Key System are now located at the Bay Area Electric Museum at Rio Vista Jct. I know that at lest one of the cars are still operational. I believe this is one of the oldest cars in the Bay Area's collection. This is the same museum that is rebuilding the former Sacramento Northern Interurban line. They own 22 miles of right-of-way, which is adjacent to the museum. They have already electrified a couple of miles worth, and run diseal trains in the opposite direction.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas
        Message Number: 758994
        Posted by: RAC93
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]NYC subway cars operating in other areas posted by Lefty on October 09, 1997 at 16:13:44: I know that some NYC cars were used during the construction of the Downtown L.A. subway, the Metro Red Line. I recall a couple of years ago that in a yard between Dodger Stadium and Downtown L.A. that there was about 4 cars with their sides all in red. I think that they were R-33 redbirds from the IRT but then again, could've been R-30's since they were recently retired. I don't know how wide the cars in the L.A. system are so I'm not sure. There should be someone out there who knows. Also, if anyone want to know what the L.A. Metro Red Line cars look like, all you need to do is go to your local video store and get the movie "SPEED". Towards the end, the action is taking place on an L.A. Metro car.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas
        Message Number: 758997
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]NYC subway cars operating in other areas posted by Lefty on October 09, 1997 at 16:13:44: While it's hardly "another area," don't forget the R-44s operating on the SIRT.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas
        Message Number: 758999
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:10 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]NYC subway cars operating in other areas posted by Lefty on October 09, 1997 at 16:13:44: I'm not sure if this counts but R-42s 4764 and 4765 spent some time at the DOT test Facility in Pueblo, Colorado about 20+ years ago. Until they were rehabbed, they sported the DOT logo inside the cars. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas
        Message Number: 759001
        Posted by: John
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:12 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas posted by RAC93 on October 12, 1997 at 12:44:14: Were the NYC cars temporarily used in passenger service in Los Angeles? Or were they just "there".
        
        Subject: Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas
        Message Number: 759010
        Posted by: Peter Sutheim
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas posted by John on October 12, 1997 at 22:32:38: The presence of those NY subway cars in the former yard between Dodger Stadium and downtown LA may have to do with the filming of a movie called (The?) Money Train, an adventure fantasy that is set in and around the NYC subway system. Several 1960s BMT/IND cars (sorry, buffs, I don't know all the R- numbers by heart!) were transported to LA, some to be reworked into the "money train", a flashy armored cash-collection train that was the focus of the story. Some were also used to simulate intentional crashes. A half-mile-long (approx) "tunnel" was built out of framing lumber and plywood along a stretch of ordinary track and the cars were presumably towed along it in the filming of the subway action scenes. I was never able to see any filming action, but I did get to snoop around the location a couple of times, and enjoyed stepping around piles of subway car guts (trucks, control stands, compressors, etc.). There was a good-sized temporary machine shop on the lot, probably the equal of a good many rapid-transit maintenance and car-building shops. This was -about- two years ago. As a former New Yorker who loved the subways from earliest childhood, it gladdened my heart to see these middle-aged cars again, right here in my reluctantly adopted city.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas
        Message Number: 759011
        Posted by: Joe Barnes
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas posted by David Pirmann on October 11, 1997 at 22:20:16: (On consulting Harre Demoro's book.) No, you won't find it in Borders, but 48 California libraries and 3 New york libraries have copies. The library nearest you will get it for you via interlibrary loan.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas
        Message Number: 759015
        Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:22 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas posted by David Pirmann on October 10, 1997 at 22:11:22: Seashore had acquired one of those IRT El cars and it was being stored at a member's home in Southern California. Unfortunately, the car was torched by vandals before we had an opportunity to move it east. It was a total loss. :( Another similar situation are the Boston, Revere Beach and Lynn cars which ended up at East Broad Top. I don't think that those cars were ever electrified, but they are the only surviving relics of the predecessor to the (T)'s Blue Line. On the BRB&L 1880's era steam coaches were electrified and served until the line closed in 1940. Four Eastern Mass 4300 series trolley cars were later purchased for one-man night service. The BRB&L was: A steam railroad A trolley line An interurban A rapid transit line A beach railroad A ferryboat operator Amazing Gerry
        
        Subject: Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas
        Message Number: 759023
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas posted by Peter Rosa on October 12, 1997 at 17:47:42: Living here, it may as well be another planet.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas
        Message Number: 759025
        Posted by: Patrick C. Jones
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]NYC subway cars operating in other areas posted by Lefty on October 09, 1997 at 16:13:44: I wouldn't call it a system, but the Shoreline Trolley Museum owns a number of NYC rapid transit cars. Go to: www.panix.com/~christos/trolley/triprapid.html Cars that ran in service on Oct 4/5 include a Lo-V/R-9 train, Lo-V/Hi-V train, BRT el car and a R-17. Next time they come out to play is Member's Day (check 1997 schedule on the museum's page) If you like, I can email you scans of photos that weren't included in the museum's website.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas
        Message Number: 759058
        Posted by: Fitz
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas posted by David Pirmann on October 10, 1997 at 22:11:22: There's also one good photo in Middleton's "From Bullets to BART" published by the Central Electric Railfans' Association,1989.

Thread title: Re:Amtrak Talgo Tilters... (758960)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:35:39 1997, by Zack

Subject: Re:Amtrak Talgo Tilters...
Message Number: 758960
Posted by: Zack
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:39 1997

In Reply to: [6]Slamtrak Talgo Tilters... posted by Nathan on October 08, 1997 at 22:27:37: there 2 sets now and 3 more on the way one set is under going highspeed testing last i heard(the superliners that are filling in are plan $hit) the other is running between vancouver B.C and seattle daily

Thread title: Re: NYC subway cars (Chicago cars) operating in other areas (758964)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:35:42 1997, by Ed Sachs

Subject: Re: NYC subway cars (Chicago cars) operating in other areas
Message Number: 758964
Posted by: Ed Sachs
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:42 1997

In Reply to: [6]NYC subway cars operating in other areas posted by Lefty on October 09, 1997 at 16:13:44: I don't know about NY subway cars, but there have been two cases of former Chicago Interurban or L cars going to Philadelphia, both times to the SEPTA Norristown line: 1. After the North Shore line ceased operation in 1961, the Red Arrow Line bought the Electroliners (renamed Liberty Liners and somewhat modified) for use on the Norristown line. 2. More recently, ex CTA PCC L cars (6000 series) were used on the Norristown line.

Thread title: Subway Genes (758968)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:35:46 1997, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Subway Genes
Message Number: 758968
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:46 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Slamtrak Talgo Tilters... posted by Brent Foster on October 09, 1997 at 17:14:52: You'd be surprised how many people share that "subway gene". :) --Mark

Thread title: NEW LIRR DIESEL PICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (758974)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:35:50 1997, by Philip Nasadowski

Subject: NEW LIRR DIESEL PICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message Number: 758974
Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:50 1997

I found pics of the new LIRR diesels - here's the url : http://www.mtp.semi.harris.com/diesel30.html They're at the bottom of the page... enjoy

Thread title: MNRR Harmon Open House on Sat. 10/18/97 (758990)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:36:03 1997, by Lefty

Subject: MNRR Harmon Open House on Sat. 10/18/97
Message Number: 758990
Posted by: Lefty
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:03 1997

can anyone give me directions to get there from NYC? I plan on taking pictures there and scanning them.
- Subject: Re: MNRR Harmon Open House on Sat. 10/18/97
- Message Number: 758992
- Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:05 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]MNRR Harmon Open House on Sat. 10/18/97 posted by Lefty on October 12, 1997 at 01:29:35: Um... Weeeellll.... you COULD always take the train up there.... don't know if it stops ANYWHERE near the the yards in Harmon ;) Actually, it's probbly the best to get up there....
  - Subject: Re: MNRR Harmon Open House on Sat. 10/18/97
  - Message Number: 759004
  - Posted by: Andrew Huie
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:14 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: MNRR Harmon Open House on Sat. 10/18/97 posted by Philip Nasadowski on October 12, 1997 at 03:10:15: haha, funny, considering the yard is next to the Croton-Harmon station 8-).

Thread title: NYC bus and 7 IRT line (758995)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:36:07 1997, by Technical Question

Subject: NYC bus and 7 IRT line
Message Number: 758995
Posted by: Technical Question
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:07 1997

1) Concerning the 7 IRT, on Wendsday October 8, there was no morning express service, all trains ran local. Does anybody know why express service was suspended for the morning of that day? 2)On the new city buses, there is aguage on the left side of the dash. It "Axle Air Pressure", does anybody know what this is for? The brake pressure? I notice that the needle drops quite a bit during heavy braking and raises when the bus moves for a few minutes.

Thread title: Re: It's Another Poll HBO Subway Story (758996)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:36:08 1997, by Lou from Brooklyn

Subject: Re: It's Another Poll HBO Subway Story
Message Number: 758996
Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:08 1997

In Reply to: [5]It's Another Poll Time! posted by Lou from Middletown on October 10, 1997 at 13:59:37: How bout HBO's recent Subway Stories, seems they used the same station for each story >G
- Subject: Re: It's Another Poll HBO Subway Story
- Message Number: 759007
- Posted by: Subman23
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:16 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: It's Another Poll HBO Subway Story posted by Lou from Brooklyn on October 12, 1997 at 14:58:46: I enjoyed "Subway Stories"; especially Rosie Perez. Many different stations were used (Times Square, 62 Street, Hoyt/Schermerhorn, etc.).
  - Subject: Re: It's Another Poll HBO Subway Story
  - Message Number: 759012
  - Posted by: dennis
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:20 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: It's Another Poll HBO Subway Story posted by Subman23 on October 13, 1997 at 09:23:33: i don't know this crap i'm from chicago.i know about our lines!

Thread title: The Little Engine That Couldn't (or the saga of 614) (758998)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:36:09 1997, by subway-buff

Subject: The Little Engine That Couldn't (or the saga of 614)
Message Number: 758998
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:09 1997

Yesterday, 10-11-1997, I made the mistake of riding this steam train to Port Jervis NY for a three hour trip up, three hour layover, and three hours back. The trip turned into a trip to hades (I'd use stronger language but I don't think Dave would allow it and I don't use that language). It broke a piston around Mile 40 and we waited 90 minutes for two dielsels to return to take us to campbell hill where 614 was removed and we were dieseled to Port Jervis at a snail pace> Yes, they canceled all activities and no refund or credit! On the way back another ten minutes at Campbell Hall for an evaluation of still non-operable 614. What a waste! Please don't be lured by their glossy talk- $68 for diesel to Port Jervis for 45 minutes and back is pathetic! We called 614 the little engine that couldn't.. Dave- I realize this may be borderline, but In the interest of train buffs I cant bear to see others frequenting subtalk to lose their money. Please don't toss me off the site.Please allow this time.
- Subject: Re: The Little Engine That Couldn't (or the saga of 614)
- Message Number: 759000
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:11 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]The Little Engine That Couldn't (or the saga of 614) posted by subway-buff on October 12, 1997 at 20:30:44: The 614's problems were on the newsgroups last week. Apparently the same thing happened last weekend. The engine was seen out at NJT's Meadows Maint. Facility during last weekend and was supposedly fixed. Last year's 614 excursions, and the ones this spring, seemed to go off pretty well from what I heard. I'm surprised about the no refund business -- at the minimum I would expect an offer of a new ticket for a later trip. Everyone I've heard from always says the 614 trips have been run very professionally so maybe if you write to them they'll take care of you.
  - Subject: Re: The Little Engine That Couldn't (or the saga of 614)
  - Message Number: 759002
  - Posted by: ~airplane
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:12 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]The Little Engine That Couldn't (or the saga of 614) posted by subway-buff on October 12, 1997 at 20:30:44: Mile 40 you say? I was planning on making the short trip over to the Moodna Viaduct to catch 614 crossing the trestle (mile 44, if I'm correct). Apparently, I missed nothing by staying home.
    - Subject: Re: The Little Engine That Couldn't (or the saga of 614)
    - Message Number: 759003
    - Posted by: ~airplane
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:13 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: The Little Engine That Couldn't (or the saga of 614) posted by ~airplane on October 12, 1997 at 23:20:28: Oops, my PJL timetable says mile 55, not 44. Where exactly did the train stop? Did you make it to Harriman?
      - Subject: Re: The Little Engine That Couldn't (or the saga of 614)
      - Message Number: 759006
      - Posted by: Subway-buff
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: The Little Engine That Couldn't (or the saga of 614) posted by ~airplane on October 12, 1997 at 23:42:28: We almost made it to Woodbury (I think). 614 never made it to Moodna. The milepost I used were the "official" RR mile markers trackside. I did contact Iron Horse and will post my response to their reply- be it positive or negative.
        
        Subject: Re: The Little Engine That Couldn't (or the saga of 614)
        Message Number: 759009
        Posted by: Ted Nielsen
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]The Little Engine That Couldn't (or the saga of 614) posted by subway-buff on October 12, 1997 at 20:30:44: I went on the June 8 , 1997 trip to Port Jervis and there was only a minor problem near the Moodna Viaduct. The steam locomotive over-heated and we were stopped for about 15-20 mins. However , we arrived almost on-time at Port Jervis and the trip back was uneventful. Iron Horse should give everyone their money back ( or at least half ). I think that $ 68 is too much in the first place and there should be a refund policy if something goes wrong with 614.
        
        Subject: Re: The Little Engine That Couldn't (or the saga of 614)
        Message Number: 759040
        Posted by: anthony pardi
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: The Little Engine That Couldn't (or the saga of 614) posted by Ted Nielsen on October 13, 1997 at 13:56:23: you rode the train you made it to P J and back to Hoboken in one piece and the trainover heated pooor baby!!!! you want a refund man get real... Ross Rowland provides a service for those who've never gotten the chance to ride behind steam in its glory days and to rekindle to those who have. $68 r.t for over 180 mile r.t ain't too cheap but hey man what were you expecting dinner at the Ritz included..

Thread title: Train memories (759008)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:36:17 1997, by Robert O'Dwyer

Subject: Train memories
Message Number: 759008
Posted by: Robert O'Dwyer
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:17 1997

I just wanted to say thanks to all involved in the creation and up keep of this site. I was born and raised in Brooklyn, NY. I joined the Marine Corps in 1989 and I am now stationed at MCAS, Cherry Point, NC. As a kid growing up in Brooklyn, I was fascinated by the subway system. The D train was literally in my back yard, as it roared above my east 15th street home near Avenue M. Later, I moved to East 5th Street between Elm Avenue and Avenue I. That was where I became familar with the diesel rails of the Long Island Rail Road. I can't tell you how many countless hours I spent walking, playing, and exploring those tracks. Anyone who grew up near the subway knows its more than just a way of transportation. As a child it's an entire new universe. It was rare, but always a thrill to actually see a train riding the rails of the LIRR, traveling from the Brooklyn Military Ocean Terminal to what ever unknown destination lay ahead. I try and visit Brooklyn at least once a year. Each time I come home I make it a point to ride the subway. This past July, My three year old son got to ride the subway (B Train) from Brooklyn into Manhattan for his first time. The look in his eyes said it all. Anyway, I discovered this site today by accident and I shed a couple of tears as it brought a flood of good memories back to me. Thank You. Sincerely, Robert O'Dwyer
- Subject: Re: Train memories
- Message Number: 759013
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:21 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Train memories posted by Robert O'Dwyer on October 13, 1997 at 12:14:17: No, Mr. O'Dwyer, it is we who should be thanking you and shedding a tear for making the commitment to your country that you have made. Email me at chascfa@aol.com with your mailing address and I will try and see what I can scare up out of my memorabilia collection that might add to your memories.
  - Subject: Re: Train memories
  - Message Number: 759017
  - Posted by: Charlie Bonaire
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:24 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Train memories posted by Robert O'Dwyer on October 13, 1997 at 12:14:17: Good post. Reminds me of growing up in Newark, where we all revered the City Subway and explored every inch of it. On a hot summer day, nothing beat parking our bikes at Franklin Ave., the line's northern terminus, and taking a ride along Branch Brook Park, then down into the tunnel under downtown, for a cool half-hour round trip. I feel sorry for anyone who didn't have a rail line nearby when they were growing up. (Later, after we moved from our house in Rahway next to the PRR tracks, I had trouble falling asleep without the noises of the trains.)

Thread title: Re: NYC subway cars (R-42 in Pueblo) (759014)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:36:22 1997, by Fernando Perez

Subject: Re: NYC subway cars (R-42 in Pueblo)
Message Number: 759014
Posted by: Fernando Perez
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:22 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC subway cars operating in other areas posted by Mark S Feinman on October 12, 1997 at 20:54:13: Reagerding the r-42's that went to Colorado there is a picture of them sitting on the test track in the middle of the desert in a book I believe titled "In the undeground" or something like that. I believe the Authors name in Dunahy of Denahy
- Subject: Re: NYC subway cars (R-42 in Pueblo)
- Message Number: 759020
- Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:26 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC subway cars (R-42 in Pueblo) posted by Fernando Perez on October 14, 1997 at 08:34:46: I think the book that you are referring to is titled "Under The Sidewalks Of New York" by Brian Cudahy. -Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA

Thread title: Re: The Little Engine (614 Real Story) (759018)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:36:25 1997, by Lou from Brooklyn

Subject: Re: The Little Engine (614 Real Story)
Message Number: 759018
Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:25 1997

In Reply to: [6]The Little Engine That Couldn't (or the saga of 614) posted by subway-buff on October 12, 1997 at 20:30:44: Here is what I have picked up and shamlessly copied from other places on the net and Compuserve: The 614 has incurred a failure of the fireman side piston ring. Inspection has indicated that neither the cylinder nor the valve was damaged by the ring failure. A spare set of rings are being installed but the rings are thinner than design, consiquently a spacer is being welded in the piston grove to eliminate the gap and hopefully facilitate operation of the undersized piston ring. Welding has been completed and final grinding is in progress. Upon reassembly the 614 will be coupled to the west end on a passenger train which is currently in the Cambell Hall yard. Diesels will pull the train and the 614 eastbound in order to seat the new rings. Train will stop, rings will be inspected and if all looks ok the 614 will push to passenger train back to Hoboken. It is presently planned that if the new rings operate properly that the 614 will operate on Sunday 10/12/97. Mike Finfer reported last night (Sat) on the failure of 614 on the Saturday trip. This was caused by a bad piston ring, and the diesels which shadow the train were called to pull the train from Campbell Hall to Port Jervis and back to Hoboken, where the train arrived a bit early. The volunteer maintenance crew worked most of the night and repaired the piston. The Conrail yardmaster at Campbell Hall refused permission to turn the 614 on the wye, and made it abundently clear that all he wanted was to "get that @#$% steam engine off my railroad". An NJT crew was called at Port Jervis and they arrived to tow the engine to West End, where it was turned to face east, as that is the direction it must face to be coaled at Hoboken. Arrival at Hoboken was 5:30am. A new problem surfaced during the coaling, as the automatic stoker jammed and could not be freed. The decision was made to put two NJT diesels behind the 614, which would be hand fired to keep up steam needed to blow the whistle, apply brakes, and make smoke for the masses at the lineside. (There is no way two men can put enough coal in the firebox to power the entire train.) At Port Jervis, the engine was turned, and enough coal was shoveled out of the tender to expose the screw, where the problem was found and corrected (loose coal compacted to a cement-like substance). The 614 performed its usual three runbys at Port Jervis in good style, and the diesels were dispatched to Otisville and told to wait there just in case. We left PJ about 25 minutes late, and the 614 dug into the heavy grade up toward Otisville in good style. But after only 3-4 miles we ground to a halt, and found we had a new problem. Part of the screw for the automatic stoker had broken, and could not be fixed on the spot. The diesels were called back from Otisville, and the procedure from the outbound trip was repeated, after a 50 minute delay. We hit a couple of detectors, caused by the cylinder head near the first axle of the 614 and the firebox, which delayed us only briefly. Arrival back in Hoboken was at 7:20 (advertised 6:14). The good news is that Ross Rowland reports that the screw can be repaired tomorrow (Monday), and that next weekend's trips should operate as scheduled.

Thread title: Re: It's Another Poll Time-Wow! (759021)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:36:27 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: Re: It's Another Poll Time-Wow!
Message Number: 759021
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:27 1997

In Reply to: [5]It's Another Poll Time! posted by Lou from Middletown on October 10, 1997 at 13:59:37: This has gotten about as big as a response as I've ever seen here! Has the Keeper of the Site ever thoght about trying to put together a page with a listing of all the appearences of the lines in the cinema/television?? think it would make quite an interesting list! By the way I almost forgot about the cameo the subway makes in the 1959 "The FBI Story", with Jimmy Stewart. Some real nice shots of Lo-Vs there!!
- Subject: Re: It's Another Poll Time-Wow!
- Message Number: 759027
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:32 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: It's Another Poll Time-Wow! posted by Lou from Middletown on October 14, 1997 at 17:32:14: > Has the Keeper of the Site ever thoght about trying to put together a > page with a listing of all the appearences of the lines in the > cinema/television?? Thought of it, yes. Time to do it, no. Care to volunteer? :-)

Thread title: Re: NYC subway cars (R-42 in Pueblo AND (759022)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:36:28 1997, by John

Subject: Re: NYC subway cars (R-42 in Pueblo AND
Message Number: 759022
Posted by: John
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:28 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC subway cars (R-42 in Pueblo) posted by Fernando Perez on October 14, 1997 at 08:34:46: Speaking about it being in the middle of the desert, do you know about the HUGE collection of retired airplanes in the Mojave Desert? While browsing through the transportation section at Barnes/Noble, I came across a book called "Desert Airplanes", or something. Just about all airplanes that are retired from passenger service are stored there. Not exactly related to the subway, but I just decided to share this with everybody.
- Subject: Re: NYC subway cars (R-42 in Pueblo AND
- Message Number: 759026
- Posted by: ~airplane
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:31 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC subway cars (R-42 in Pueblo AND posted by John on October 14, 1997 at 17:41:28: There was a nice article in Air & Space magazine several years ago on the subject of planes in the Mojave. I wouldn't be surprised if there were some old locomotives sitting out there too.

Thread title: Re: MTA Museum Gift Shop Web Page? (759028)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:36:32 1997, by David Pirmann

Subject: Re: MTA Museum Gift Shop Web Page?
Message Number: 759028
Posted by: David Pirmann
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:32 1997

In Reply to: [6]MTA Museum Gift Shop Web Page? posted by Julio Perez on October 15, 1997 at 07:52:44: Well, you're not exactly going to get an official answer here but my guess would be that due to recent shakeups within the museum, and the fact that the web site business is pretty new to them, there's probably no one around to do it. I also heard that the museum gift shop is being outsourced; if that's true it would be up to the outsourcee to do a web site if they were so inclined. Maybe it's just not in their contract.
- Subject: Re: MTA Museum Gift Shop Web Page?
- Message Number: 759047
- Posted by: Julio Perez
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:48 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: MTA Museum Gift Shop Web Page? posted by David Pirmann on October 15, 1997 at 08:33:43: "... Maybe it's just not in their contract." Ahhh, the pitfalls of contracts. It's possible someone at MTA Procurement messed up and forgot to use the term "vendor must employ cybernetic marketing practices," or something to that effect. Then again, does Procurement know what the term "Internet" means? It's a shame, for I would suspect many exiled New Yorkers like myself would like to obtain some subway memorabilia (aside from books and calendars, of course, which have been readily available via the Internet and/or bookstores for quite a while).
  - Subject: Re: MTA Museum Gift Shop Web Page?
  - Message Number: 759078
  - Posted by: Nathan
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:13 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: MTA Museum Gift Shop Web Page? posted by Julio Perez on October 16, 1997 at 07:13:08: Well, I know the MTA has a site where you can buy (what the average person would call junk) old subway treasures. I'll try to find it and post the URL... I think that's where you could get things like destination signs etc... (I want a pair of old redbird doors myself, make a good bathroom door!!)
    - Subject: MTA Museum Gift Shop Web Page?
    - Message Number: 759973
    - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
    - Date: Sun Nov 30 11:01:22 1997

Thread title: O Gauge Tinplate NYC Subway Car Models (759034)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:36:38 1997, by Frank Gatazka

Subject: O Gauge Tinplate NYC Subway Car Models
Message Number: 759034
Posted by: Frank Gatazka
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:38 1997

Just got my Mikes Train House (MTH Electric Trains) catalog and saw the add for his new NYC subway car set. The model is similar to the R-44/46 series cars, but is "short" having only three doors per side, no doubt to negotiate the tight radius tinplate curves. The color scheme depicted in the catalog is not correct, but MTH tells me this is only a preliminary drawing, and the real models will be correct. The best news is the price. How about $199 for a four car set with horn, or $299 with "Protosounds", which is a sound package that includes squeeling brakes, station announcements etc? Compared to what we have been paying for brass models this is a real bargain. Those of you who have seen MTH's PCC trolley car model will be placing your orders for one or more sets of these. See your local MTH dealer NOW!

Thread title: Brake (759035)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:36:38 1997, by Marco

Subject: Brake
Message Number: 759035
Posted by: Marco
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:38 1997

What is the brake pipe used for? Why does the motorman have to relieve the pressure at every terminal?
- Subject: Re: Brake
- Message Number: 759036
- Posted by: Todd Glickman
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:39 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Brake posted by Marco on October 15, 1997 at 15:42:45: There is an excellent explanation of train air braking systems at: http://www.primenet.com/~harpwolf/airbrakes.html
  - Subject: Re: Brake
  - Message Number: 759037
  - Posted by: Anthony PArdi
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:40 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Brake posted by Todd Glickman on October 15, 1997 at 16:29:15: The reason motormen place train brakes into emergency at terminals is for safety. since the train may be unattended for an unspecified time the trains brakes are left in emergency till the consist is either used for passenger service or relayed to the yard for storage. At this time the motorman will place control cut out to the on position place reverser forward and put the brake handle into the control stand in the first position of Handle off ( hence in order to remove the brake handle it must first passs the emergency position) move brake handle to the full service position to place air into the brake system(full service)charge the brkae system.
    - Subject: Re: Brake
    - Message Number: 759038
    - Posted by: Anthony PArdi
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:41 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Brake posted by Todd Glickman on October 15, 1997 at 16:29:15: The reason motormen place train brakes into emergency at terminals is for safety. since the train may be unattended for an unspecified time the trains brakes are left in emergency till the consist is either used for passenger service or relayed to the yard for storage. At this time the motorman will place control cut out to the on position place reverser forward and put the brake handle into the control stand in the first position of Handle off ( hence in order to remove the brake handle it must first passs the emergency position) move brake handle to the full service position to place air into the brake system(full service)charge the brkae system.
      - Subject: Re: Brake
      - Message Number: 759051
      - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Brake posted by Marco on October 15, 1997 at 15:42:45: The term brake pipe is not appropriate for NYC subway equipment purchased after 1940. The proper term is emergency pipe, since the equipment reacts to any significant change of pressure in the pipe by activating an emergency application. Otherwise it plays no roll in making a service stop. Another difference from earlier equipment is that the emergency stop (and the service stop) is made using the car's own air supply. Thus when the emergency stop is made at the end of the line (as it has to be to get the handle out) each car in the train is holding its own brakes on, and there is no passage through which the emergency pipe can recharge until someone puts a brake handle in somewhere. The brakes cannot be accidentally released (unless some enterprising miscreant can pull ten (or 11) BCOs without getting caught. With older train-air equipment an emergency stop will eventually bleed off because the only source of additional air is releasing the brakes! Gerry
        
        Subject: Re: Brake
        Message Number: 759083
        Posted by: NO LINK
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:17 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Brake posted by Todd Glickman on October 15, 1997 at 16:29:15: [6]http://www.primenet.com/~harpwolf/airbrakes.html

Thread title: New Subway Map issued (759042)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:36:44 1997, by Allan

Subject: New Subway Map issued
Message Number: 759042
Posted by: Allan
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:44 1997

Subject: New Subway Map issued Path: lobby01.news.aol.com!newstf02.news.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-f or-mail From: irt1904@aol.com (IRT1904) Newsgroups: nyc.transit Date: 14 Oct 1997 23:36:11 GMT Lines: 35 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com The September 1997 edition of the Blue version (multilingual) is now available. Noticable changes are: In the "Important information about this Map" section and the main information grid: Late night service changes on the E (Local in Queens), F (local in Queens), G Terminate at Court Square (after 9PM). Establishment of an S shuttle between 21st St-Queensbridge and 2nd Av during late night hours. The big change is the re-introduction after a long absence of the Aqueduct Racetrack station (open Northbound only on Racing Days 11AM - 7PM ). The ads on this edition are: Jackie - A new comedy Air Jamaica The map is currently available at the Transit Museum Gift Shop in Grand Central. I have not seen the September 97 Red version yet. When I do I will let you know. Ferroequinology (Its' a hobby not my profession)
- Subject: Re: New Subway Map issued
- Message Number: 759082
- Posted by: NO ONE IS BACK
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:16 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]New Subway Map issued posted by Allan on October 15, 1997 at 19:11:55: The RED EDITION IS OUT, I have seen it in a subway booth, and I got a copy, why can't anybody look in the obvious places?
  - Subject: Re: New Subway Map issued
  - Message Number: 759100
  - Posted by: Sherman Cheung
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:30 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: New Subway Map issued posted by NO ONE IS BACK on October 19, 1997 at 21:32:56: dammit why can't the red labels be on the map racks, too. I'm sick of those frigginfragginbleepin "Immigrant maps", get rid of them. Btw. next year in january, the subway maps will be in the "regional map" and there will be no Isolated Subway map anymore, just the reg. Map. I hope it has strip maps on the back for the Subways, I just hope no frigginfragginbleepin immigrant regional map shows it wascally face. i'm going to kill the person who dreamt up the Immigrant map. Sherman
    - Subject: Re: New Subway Map issued
    - Message Number: 759105
    - Posted by: David Pirmann - web site host
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:34 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: New Subway Map issued posted by Sherman Cheung on October 20, 1997 at 13:14:26: Hey Sherm, lets try to be a little more tolerant... someday you might be on the receiving end instead... --Dave

Thread title: Central Park Traverse Line (759059)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:36:57 1997, by CHARLES A. WARREN

Subject: Central Park Traverse Line
Message Number: 759059
Posted by: CHARLES A. WARREN
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:57 1997

From the the reprinted Mcgraw Electric Railway Directory, 1924; 522 New York & Harlem RR Co (Traction Lines)-Office, 2155 Madison Ave, NY (operates line from Mott Haven, Madison Ave Bridge to Post Office at Bway and crosstown line from 8th Ave, thru traverse rroad in Central Park, East 85th St to Madison Ave, to East 86th St, to Ave A to Ferry Terminal at East 93rd St ... Management List ... Energy Purchased from NY Railways Repair Shops at 2155 Madison Ave and 1874 2nd Ave. 19.394 miles, all in paved street; undgrd; 143 motor pass and 17 service motor cars. Fare .05 Any more info? pix of Central Park traverse line? Remnant of original NY&H RR? You have a great site.
- Subject: Re: Central Park Traverse Line
- Message Number: 759062
- Posted by: Fernando Perez
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:00 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Central Park Traverse Line posted by CHARLES A. WARREN on October 17, 1997 at 23:28:33: There is a book which covers all the trolley lines and there trackage in Manhattan, which mentions this line. It has a few pictures of the tracks and trolleys running through the 86St. tranverse road. The name of the book is:"New York Railways-The Green Line". I purchased my copy at the Branford trolley musuem in East Haven Connecticut for $20.00. The publisher of the book is N.J. International. ISBN#--0-934088-30-6. The book also has many maps of trackage in Manhattan. "
  - Subject: Re: Central Park Traverse Line
  - Message Number: 759092
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:24 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Central Park Traverse Line posted by Fernando Perez on October 18, 1997 at 00:41:08: OK Trolley buffs, here's a challenge for you! In the early fifties, when I often took the Parsons Blvd. bus from Jamaica to Flushing, there was a very noticeable bump in the pavement on Parson's north of Hillside. According to my mom, this was left over from the crossing of a Trolley line that ran on private right of way, through "people's back yards", in her words. I have never been able to track down, either by maps or books, what points this line served. Can anyone help?

Thread title: London Tubes=Clean!! (759073)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:37:08 1997, by Nathan

Subject: London Tubes=Clean!!
Message Number: 759073
Posted by: Nathan
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:08 1997

I was recently in London, and was pleasantly surprised by the state of the tubes: After being told of how dirty they were I went in, and they were cleaner than the (what people say) pristine Toronto tubes: the cars were sharply painted, there was no loose garbage, no graffity in underground stations, sparse grafitti in suburban stations. Anyway, I was impressed to say the least.

Thread title: B / C Northern terminal swap (759087)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:37:20 1997, by Wayne Johnson

Subject: B / C Northern terminal swap
Message Number: 759087
Posted by: Wayne Johnson
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:20 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: R-32's on Q/ 40's on N posted by Steve on October 17, 1997 at 21:32:47: When this change takes place will the B operate along the Concourse as the C has all along (Concourse local, Rush Hours only).

Thread title: DeKalb - Rutgers Connection (was: Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question) (759096)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:37:27 1997, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: DeKalb - Rutgers Connection (was: Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question)
Message Number: 759096
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:27 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: The $100 Million Dollar Question posted by Bob Sklar on October 17, 1997 at 17:09:17: The DeKalb - Rutgers connection is a proposal being studied by the MTA to relive the constant construction problem on the Manhattan Bridge. The Manhattan Bridge has been under construction for years now, and engineers anticipate construction to continue for a long long while. This has resulted in the "permanent" rerouting of the N & R through the Montague Street tunnel, and no express service on the BMT Broadway line. The construction is to correct or relieve the stress placed on the bridge when trains cross it (the bridge twists a little, called torsion). The bridge is not in terrific shape, and one day will not be able to support the weight of the trains that pass over it if the construction does not occur. If the bridge were to go, you'd kill the 6th Ave trunk lines (B, D and Q) as well as curtail the former BMT Broadway service (N, R). And when the south side of the bridge is done, work needs to start on the north side. Where would the B, D, Q trains go if the north side tracks were to close? The DeKalb - Rutgers plan would be a two track tunnel connecting the BMT line north of Dekalb Ave with the Rutgers Street IND tunnel of the F line, allowing trains to bypass the Manhattan Bridge completely and rejoin 6th ave service at Broadway - Lafayette St. The F line is under utilized; this plan would increase the tunnel's capacity. Previous threads to this have discussed the possible impact on Grand Street (a heavily used station in the Chinatown Area) and offered alternative ideas. --Mark

Thread title: Who invented the Frigginfragginbleepin "Immigrant (Blue label)" Subway map? (759102)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:37:32 1997, by Sherman Cheung

Subject: Who invented the Frigginfragginbleepin "Immigrant (Blue label)" Subway map?
Message Number: 759102
Posted by: Sherman Cheung
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:32 1997

Whoever dreamt up the idea of a "Multilingul Subway map" ought to be Shot. Sherman Cheung

Thread title: Re: Who invented the Frigginfragginbleepin "Immigrant (Blue label)" Subway (759104)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:37:33 1997, by .

Subject: Re: Who invented the Frigginfragginbleepin "Immigrant (Blue label)" Subway
Message Number: 759104
Posted by: .
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:33 1997
- Subject: Re: Who invented the Frigginfragginbleepin "Immigrant (Blue label)" Subway
- Message Number: 759106
- Posted by: .
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:35 1997

Thread title: 2,5/3,4 Southern terminal swap in the 80's (759108)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:37:36 1997, by Jeff

Subject: 2,5/3,4 Southern terminal swap in the 80's
Message Number: 759108
Posted by: Jeff
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:36 1997

In Reply to: [6]B / C Northern terminal swap posted by Wayne Johnson on October 20, 1997 at 10:01:57: Is anyone here old enough to remember why the NYCTA switched the 2 and 5 train terminal with the 3 and 4 in the early 80's /late 70's? Did the NYCTA have nothing better to do or was it legit? Inquiring minds want to know.

Thread title: Turboliners (759109)
Started on Wed Nov 5 22:37:37 1997, by Joe-M

Subject: Turboliners
Message Number: 759109
Posted by: Joe-M
Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:37 1997

There was a discussion about turboliners about a week ago or so. I found a story in Sept-97-Railway Age There is one set that was rebuilt in 1995 by NY-DOT and is running on the NYC-Albany Empire Corridor. They would like to buy and rebuild 7 more sets that AMTRAK has mothballed. The origional Rhor Tuboliners (RTL) have been renamed RTL II for the prototype rebuild. The next rebuilds will be RTL III. The RTL III trainsets will use Turbomeca TM1600 Makila IF4 gas turbine power plants and will be capable of operating at speeds up to 125 mph. They were waiting for the Fed budget to be passed to provide funding. Was It included in the transportation budget bill??
- Subject: Re: Turboliners
- Message Number: 759110
- Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:38 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Turboliners posted by Joe-M on October 20, 1997 at 19:54:02: I dunno, but I *HAVE* seen them in Penn recently. My big question is...WHY??? Everything I've ever heard about gas turbine trains is that they suck up fuel BIGTIME. I know the LIRR tried them back in the 60's-70's, and they were generally reliable, but used too much fuel. I think they also tried a low-platform version of the M-1, but haven't seen much beyond a pic of it. I don't understand what the big rub about turbines is since they really don't offer anything over what a diesel can do.

Thread title: 63rd Street tunnel extension (759114)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:41:26 1997, by Albert

Subject: 63rd Street tunnel extension
Message Number: 759114
Posted by: Albert
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:26 1997

When will the 63rd Street tunnel extension by Queens Plaza be ready for service. I pass by it all the time, and it seems like they moving along rather well. Ipass by the construction site going to school with the N or R train, wich ever I'm on the time. From up ahead and down below I can see the construction, does this mean that the project will be finished before the year 2000.
- Subject: 63rd Street tunnel extension
- Message Number: 759116
- Posted by: Albert
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:28 1997
  
  When will the 63rd Street tunnel extension by Queens Plaza be ready for service. I pass by it all the time, and it seems like they moving along rather well. Ipass by the construction site going to school with the N or R train, wich ever I'm on the time. From up ahead and down below I can see the construction, does this mean that the project will be finished before the year 2000.
  - Subject: Re: 63rd Street tunnel extension
  - Message Number: 759152
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:56 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]63rd Street tunnel extension posted by Albert on November 04, 1997 at 03:14:00: Right now it's scheduled to open in 2001.
    - Subject: Re: 63rd Street tunnel extension
    - Message Number: 759180
    - Posted by: Albert
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:18 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: 63rd Street tunnel extension posted by Steve on November 05, 1997 at 00:26:40: Thanks for the info, Steve.
      - Subject: Re: 63rd Street tunnel extension
      - Message Number: 759349
      - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:34 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]63rd Street tunnel extension posted by Albert on November 04, 1997 at 03:03:30: 2001. Now if they would only extend the E train through St. Albans on one of the LIRR tracks the way they said they would 30 years ago...

Thread title: Electronic signs (759115)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:41:27 1997, by Al

Subject: Electronic signs
Message Number: 759115
Posted by: Al
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:27 1997

When I use the the R or G train I have noticed overhead on some of the Queens stations(Steinway St., 36th St., Queens Plaza, and others) blank electronic signs. They are located over the platforms and at mezzanine level of Steinway St. I have seen these signs since November of last year. Always blank they are, since their installation.Why? When are they finally going to put them to use?
- Subject: Re: Electronic signs
- Message Number: 759126
- Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:35 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Electronic signs posted by Al on November 04, 1997 at 03:12:15: If these are the signs I think they are, they've been installed along the 7 from Queens Plaza to Main St. The usually have the date and time on them, but the ultimate plan is for them to tell you the arrival of the next train, delay updates, sports scores,etc... -Hank
  - Subject: Re: Electronic signs
  - Message Number: 759131
  - Posted by: David L.
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:39 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Electronic signs posted by Hank Eisenstein on November 04, 1997 at 15:19:32: The signs that Hank are referring to are already up and working (at least to my knowledge) on the Queens Blvd line from Elmhurst Avenue to 179 Street. Most of the time it shows the time and the date. Every now and then you hear a woman's voice saying this, "Ladies and Gentelmen- We want to provide our customers with service that is safe and on time. Please do not hold train doors open." While this is being said, it is also shown on the electronic display. Then the electronic display also displays information about the closing of the Madison Ave Exit of the 5th Avenue station, don't give money to panhandlers and a few other things. During the last few weekends when the R wasn't running in Queens, it displayed messages telling us to use the E and F lines. Overall, it is very good system. What I like the most is that the PA system is actually audible.
    - Subject: Re: Electronic signs
    - Message Number: 759165
    - Posted by: Lou
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:06 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Electronic signs posted by David L. on November 04, 1997 at 17:26:03: The one at Queens Plaza Manhattan bound platform has as of yesterday, yet to work. They just got the cameras hung on the E/F track but still haven't put in the monitors. Maybe the electrical wireing isn't complete (Queens Bound cameras and monitors working on both tracks) on that side. Just an idea

Thread title: Re: Add new NYCT bus service on Staten Island to & from New Jersey & (759117)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:41:28 1997, by .

Subject: Re: Add new NYCT bus service on Staten Island to & from New Jersey &
Message Number: 759117
Posted by: .
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:28 1997
- Subject: Re: Add new NYCT bus service on Staten Island to & from New Jersey &
- Message Number: 759119
- Posted by: .
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:30 1997
  - Subject: Re: Add new NYCT bus service on Staten Island to & from New Jersey &
  - Message Number: 759127
  - Posted by: .
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:36 1997
    - Subject: Re: Add new NYCT bus service on Staten Island to & from New Jersey &
    - Message Number: 759128
    - Posted by: .
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:37 1997
      - Subject: Re: Add new NYCT bus service on Staten Island to & from New Jersey &
      - Message Number: 759137
      - Posted by: .
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:44 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Add new NYCT bus service on Staten Island to & from New Jersey &
        Message Number: 759144
        Posted by: .
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:49 1997

Thread title: Let SAMMY Speak (759121)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:41:31 1997, by subman23

Subject: Let SAMMY Speak
Message Number: 759121
Posted by: subman23
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:31 1997

I really enjoy the ongoing battle between Steve (an informed transit professional) and Sammy (a disgruntled subway rider). While I feel that Sammy is a cronic complainer and definately has an anti worker bias, occasionally he makes some good points. Just like Steve, I am a dedicated transit manager. It is important for our organization to get constructive criticism (Sammy: do try to keep it constructive). The adage goes "A squeaky wheel gets oiled!". So, let Sammy keep on griping. Steve, and others can take care of the job of enlightening him. Maybe, we can even try to rectify a situation when he has a legitimate gripe.

Thread title: GCT DEPARTURE BOARD INSTALLED (759125)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:41:34 1997, by Nick

Subject: GCT DEPARTURE BOARD INSTALLED
Message Number: 759125
Posted by: Nick
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:34 1997

After being in GCT on Sunday, I noticed the new departure board was finally installed. It's not as high up, so you won't have to look up very high. Also, it's digital, and there's plenty of room in the "remarks" section, so when there's a problem, commuters will finally (hopefully) be informed of whats going on. However, there are a few disadvantages (in my opinion). The board is has only 4 or 5 coloumns high, which means only a few trains will be posted at one time, instead of 10 to 15. There is also no arrival board-at least not yet. The departure board is both above the ticket windows (which are being renovated) and in the old spot-to the right of where the ticket windows. Does anybody know if an arrival board is going to be installed? If so, where? Any other comments? -NICK
- Subject: Re: GCT DEPARTURE BOARD INSTALLED
- Message Number: 759158
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:01 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]GCT DEPARTURE BOARD INSTALLED posted by Nick on November 04, 1997 at 14:22:15: Anyone know what happened to the components of the old board??? Probably some interesting readings on there...

Thread title: New Bus Stop Signs (759129)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:41:37 1997, by Hank Eisenstein

Subject: New Bus Stop Signs
Message Number: 759129
Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:37 1997

Has anyone seen those new fancy bus stop signs that are popping up all over the city? Anyone know what their cost is, in comparison to the original signs? On Staten Island, They've been installing them along the 59 and 55/56 routes. They're wrong. On the Northbound side of Richmond Ave@ Rockland, they have the s44 going to the Ferry (right) the s59 to Port Richmond (right) and the s94 (thelimited version of the s44) going to the SI Mall, which is the Southern Terminus. At Richmond @ Victory Blvd, they have signs on both sides of the intersection. The Northbound side has the x17 to Hugenot/Staten Island (it is on it's way to Manhattan) and the 44 and 94 to the mall (they are bound for the ferry) The Southbound sign Has the 44 gong to the mall, and the 94 to the Ferry, and the 59 to tottenville, when it's main terminus is Eltingville! -Hank
- Subject: Re: New Bus Stop Signs
- Message Number: 759132
- Posted by: David L.
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:40 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]New Bus Stop Signs posted by Hank Eisenstein on November 04, 1997 at 15:36:30: According to what I saw and heard on the news, the new signs are cheaper because they are plastic. The old signs were made of aluminum and were not maounted as high, which lead people to steal them and scrapped them for cash.
  - Subject: Re: New Bus Stop Signs
  - Message Number: 759133
  - Posted by: Nick
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:41 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: New Bus Stop Signs posted by David L. on November 04, 1997 at 17:35:27: I noticed them this past weekend. They look nicer than the older ones. Since it sounds like they cost less, and are up higher so they won't get stolen, I think the city made a good purchase!
    - Subject: Re: New Bus Stop Signs
    - Message Number: 759136
    - Posted by: John
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:43 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: New Bus Stop Signs posted by Nick on November 04, 1997 at 17:37:54: For a change!!!!! Yes, I think they look very attractive.
      - Subject: Re: New Bus Stop Signs
      - Message Number: 759154
      - Posted by: Fernando Perez
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: New Bus Stop Signs posted by John on November 04, 1997 at 18:03:11: The signs are made of recycabled materials. They are copyied from European bus stop signs, to help tourists and the such. One blunder that I have noticed in the recent installations is on Convent Av and 130 St. in West Harlem. The stop says B63 to 4 Av in brooklyn and only the M18 stops there, going to 110St. and 5 Av!

Thread title: SIRR stations (759134)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:41:41 1997, by Costa

Subject: SIRR stations
Message Number: 759134
Posted by: Costa
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:41 1997

I noticed most of the SIRR stations have no canopy. If it rains people will get wet. When are the canopys going to be reinstalled? Howcome the SIRR doesn't stop at any major places? ex:Staten Island Mall
- Subject: SIRR stations
- Message Number: 759135
- Posted by: Costa
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:42 1997
  
  I noticed most of the SIRR stations have no canopy. If it rains people will get wet. When are the canopys going to be reinstalled? Howcome the SIRR doesn't stop at any major places? ex:Staten Island Mall I also noticed that most communter trains have 2 air gauges on the operator's panel. Why is this needed? Does anyone know what the gauge on the new city buses label "Axle Air Pressure" is for? Did anyone noticed that in the new city buses, two seats in the back bench has been removed, replaced with a metal cover. Why did they do this?
  - Subject: Re: SIRR stations
  - Message Number: 759143
  - Posted by: Scruffy
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:48 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]SIRR stations posted by Costa on November 04, 1997 at 17:59:59: I don't know why SIRR was never built to the SI mall... All the work consist of operating along the coastal areas of Staten Island... My guess is that some of inner SI is hilly... But, it still doesn't make sense...
    - Subject: Re: SIRR stations
    - Message Number: 759150
    - Posted by: Peter Rosa
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:55 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: SIRR stations posted by Scruffy on November 04, 1997 at 19:41:34: The SI mall was built many decades after the SIRT. By the time it was built, cars had become the transportation mode of choice, so extending the SIRT probably wasn't on anyone's mind.
      - Subject: Re: SIRR stations
      - Message Number: 759156
      - Posted by: Fernando Perez
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]SIRR stations posted by Costa on November 04, 1997 at 17:59:59: Concerning the Axle air pressure guage, only the Orions have this label on there guages. The guage only measures air pressure as any other buses gauge's does and is not any different from the RTS's, etc.As far as the newer Orions having those handle bars on the back seat in the middle that is a good question. Many times groups of operators in discussion have not figured what it is for. My guess is that its a deterrent for the operators to use the bench as a bed on late night runs when it gets a little slow and you get sleepy! Subway air guages two needles represent one for straight air pressure and brake pipe pressure, but perhaps one of the subway car experts can answer that one.
        
        Subject: Re: SIRR stations
        Message Number: 759162
        Posted by: Staten Islander
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: SIRR stations posted by Peter Rosa on November 04, 1997 at 21:50:11: The Staten Island Mall/Pergament Shopping Center Was an airport way back when the SIRT was all running at Grade. You have to remember one of the great preWWII projects (WPS) was to get rid of all the grade crossings on the SIRT and sink the New Dorp/Grant City stations into an open cut.
        
        Subject: Re: SIRR stations
        Message Number: 759212
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: SIRR stations posted by Scruffy on November 04, 1997 at 19:41:34: The entire line was built prior to WWI. There was no mall. (1968) In fact, the area where the mall is now, and several other shopping centers and some city parkland, used to be a Drive-in theater, airport, and marina. -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: SIRR stations
        Message Number: 759213
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: SIRR stations posted by Staten Islander on November 05, 1997 at 10:38:25: The Grade Crossing elimination on the SIR was done in several phases, with the majorit of it done 1933-1939. Great Kills-Hugenot was done in '39, there is a plaque at the eltingville station. Grant City-Oakwood Heights and Bay Terrace were done in the 60's. All the stations between Clifton and Pleasant Plains were rebuilt since 1989, and had platforms extended and new canopys installed. Stapleton and Tottenville still have the frame for the old canopy, which has no roof. Tottenville has been rebuilt also. Tompkinsville is about 2 bricks away from being condemened. Richmond Valley, Nassau, and Atlantic stations were left out of the rebuid project, and the Nassau and Atlantic stations are planned to be replaced with a single station called 'Arthur Kill'. Atlantic may be the shortest High-level platform in existence, -Hank

Thread title: Subway-Airport Link (759140)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:41:46 1997, by Adam

Subject: Subway-Airport Link
Message Number: 759140
Posted by: Adam
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:46 1997

What does everybody think about all of these proposals recently to link LaGuardia and Kennedy Airports with the subway system? I'm actually pretty confused what they are doing right now. It seems that they want to use the old LIRR tracks to link Kennedy Airport to some place in Jamaica where people would have to switch trains. And with LaGuardia, they are proposing some kind of monorail or something. I think these proposals are too complicated and too expensive. My idea is very simple: Connect the N train to LaGuardia airport, a very easy venture as it can be run along the side of the Grand Central Parkway as long as the city will grant a right of way to the MTA. With regard to Kennedy, use old tracks that actually exist and build a spur off of the A line to connect with the airport. A special airport train can be run between the two airports, charging a little more than normal fare ($2.00) in order to cover the costs of the construction. This is a lot more simpler than the proposed plans, will cost much less, and would avoid having riders switch trains to get from one airport to the next.
- Subject: Re: Subway-Airport Link
- Message Number: 759142
- Posted by: Andrew Byler
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:48 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Subway-Airport Link posted by Adam on November 04, 1997 at 18:27:00: Sorry to say, but the whole notion of connecting the airports is the stupidest proposal I've seen. If you bother to review the airport connections in place in the US, you will see that very few travellers use them, mostly because they are subway lines. Workers yes, passengers no. There is no reason to believe that new York will be any different than Chicago, Atlanta, Cleveland, and Boston in this regard. The only mass transit connection with any decent ridership is in Washington, and that is because the system is perceived as decent and useful. More to the point, what is the use of connecting JFK and LaGuardia? Most airport traffic is to the suburbs or to midtown or downtown - those should be the destinations sought. The way to go as far as connecting the airports with a rail system is to run the LIRR and Metro-North and NJT directly to them. As Adam mentions, the Rockaway branch ROW goes right by Kennedy, while LaGuardia is not too far from the Port Washington and the Hells Gate routes. I'd suggest these connections, as this would allow direct link up with the commuter roads, and also Amtrak (as is being done at Newark, and like the Europeans do - at Gatwick, Frankfurt, Munich, Amsterdam, etc.). Andy
  - Subject: Re: Subway-Airport Link
  - Message Number: 759155
  - Posted by: Fernando Perez
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:59 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Subway-Airport Link posted by Adam on November 04, 1997 at 18:27:00: Myself being a trolley and light rail buff, I really do like the idea, granted if it is done right the first time. Right now it is too watered down and gimicky for me. Of course with so much polictics involved and different agencys including Federal money including those who dont want anything associated with Mass trnaist running in there back yards, we probably will never see any new form of Mass transit ever.
    - Subject: Re: Subway-Airport Link
    - Message Number: 759200
    - Posted by: Matt
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:34 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway-Airport Link (long) posted by Philip Nasadowski on November 04, 1997 at 21:31:26: The link at Newark is not an example of a "good" connection. The monorail should have been connected with Newark Penn Station so that more connections could be made, like with PATH (and for many more reasons). The JFK idea is great if (and only if) the subway is "allowed" to operate directly into the airport. The LRS is being designed with this in mind for the future. Hopefully, people will see the benefits of a direct subway-airport connection.
      - Subject: Re: Subway-Airport Link
      - Message Number: 759204
      - Posted by: Joe M
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Subway-Airport Link posted by Matt on November 05, 1997 at 22:31:56: When I arrive at Laguardia all I want to do is get into the City The Carey bus works OK but a direct subway link would be much nicer. I never take a cab to get from National to DC. I ride the train. If I never see JFK it's OK with me
        
        Subject: Re: Subway-Airport Link
        Message Number: 759229
        Posted by: Andrew Byler
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway-Airport Link posted by Matt on November 05, 1997 at 22:31:56: As I tried to point out, there is not a single example of a sucessful subway-airport link. Let's face it - very few people want to use such a thing, as Subways are not congenial to baggage and are not perceived as family friendly. Ideally, people might use them - more to the point they do not. Very, very few travellers in Chicago, Cleveland, Atlanta, or elsewhere use the Subway. 4% of the Philadelphia market uses the train, and SEPTA is doing a very bad job at trying to capture the market. Further, in NYC, 11 million people live in the suburbs, while only 7 million live in the city. About 2 million of those in the city are too poor to fly. By linking the airports only to the city using the subway, the large suburban market is essentially being written off. In reply to objections: 1) Voltage change to MN tracks. If Amtrak can do it, so can Metro North. Simply because the M4's and 6's can't, doesn't mean new cars can't be ordered that could. After all, a new service requires new cars. 2) If the Subway cannot compete with taxicabs inside Manhattan for a lot of travel now, there is no reason to believe that it will be sucessful for hauling folks to the airport. On the other hand, how many people take taxis from Babylon or Stamford to midtown compared to auto traffic? 3) "Should've"'s regarding the Newark connection are pointless. It is already being built, and will be served by the NJT NEC and Long Branch trains directly. As far as the People-Mover goes, these are fine for short distances, but are a bit of a drag for longer ones. A happy medium has been reached by simply extending it to the tracks, as a person can hop off the train and hop onto the people-mover. If PATH had been extended (given the record of the Port Authority, an impossiblilty), bunches of transfers would still have been required - people mover to Path to train. Further, PATH has the undesirable subway image which is shunned by most travellers. 4) Connecting LaGuardia to the Port Washington branch is not pointless - it provides for service to midtown, the MN Hudson line, and New Jersey. As to getting to Jamaica and beyond, there is that old Kissena Corridor, nicely graded for rail service, plus some useful highway medians .... we engineers can build all sorts of stuff in all sorts of places. 5) Subway to JFK would be easily a 45 minute to an hour ride from midtown, to say nothing of uptown. The train can halve that. And the LIRR can be extended from its present terminus to downtown. 6) No subway plan takes into account the possibility of replacing air flights with trains, as in Germany along the Rhine valley. 7) There are many sucessful examples of commuter and intercity rail integrated with an airport. BWI and Philly come to mind in this country, Gatwick (soon Heathrow also) in England. Frnakfurt, Munich, Hamburg, Colonge, Dusseldorf, and the Rhur in Germany. Amsterdam in Holland. Etc., etc. Andy
        
        Subject: Re: Subway-Airport Link
        Message Number: 759241
        Posted by: Anthony PArdi
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:07 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway-Airport Link posted by Andrew Byler on November 06, 1997 at 19:40:40: why can't a subway connection be made at Howard beach into jfk? the center two tracks leading into howard beach sta can lead to a flyover elevated route to the airport. with stations at several parking lots and a station with moving walkways into terminals ..
        
        Subject: Re: Subway-Airport Link
        Message Number: 759242
        Posted by: ANthony Pardi
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:07 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway-Airport Link posted by Joe M on November 05, 1997 at 23:37:20: how about an elevated connection with the N at ditmars blvd to La Guardia. 20mins to midtown possible
        
        Subject: Re: Subway-Airport Link
        Message Number: 759246
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway-Airport Link posted by Andrew Byler on November 06, 1997 at 19:40:40: Please note that I'm not trying to start a flame war here - intellegent disscussion of this issue can only lead to a solution that suits everybody - and works. >1) Voltage change to MN tracks. If Amtrak can do it, so can Metro North. It's not really a voltage change - its a *Frequency* change. There is litterally a gap in catenary a few feet long. the power on the MN side is roughly 13-14k 60 cycle. The Amtrak side is about 11-12k, but it's 25 cycle. It's not the voltage drop that's hard to deal with, it's the fact that there is a change in frequency. Lower frequencies require larger transformers, and I don't think 25 cycle transformers are even made anymore. That said, unless Amtrak has plans for the GG-1's 75th or 100th aniversity, I can't see why they haven't dumped 25 cycle themselfs... >3) "Should've"'s regarding the Newark connection are pointless. It is >already being built, and will be served by the NJT NEC and Long Branch >trains directly. As far as the People-Mover goes, these are fine for >short distances, but are a bit of a drag for longer ones. A happy medium >has been reached by simply extending it to the tracks, as a person can >hop off the train and hop onto the people-mover. Monorails, peoplemovers, etc, are pretty hopeless for just about everything. I really wish urban planners, and the PA in general, would give up on trying to find applications for monorails. They just aren't practical. Is it any wonder the U.S.'s largest system is in an AMUSEMENT PARK??? >If PATH had been extended (given the record of the Port Authority, an >impossiblilty), bunches of transfers would still have been required - >people mover to Path to train. Further, PATH has the undesirable subway >image which is shunned by most travellers. Or Peoplemover to Path to midtown. But for anywhere but WTC, Path would be hopeless. Actually, Path is pretty hopeless anyway ;) >4) Connecting LaGuardia to the Port Washington branch is not pointless - >it provides for service to midtown, the MN Hudson line, and New Jersey. >As to getting to Jamaica and beyond, there is that old Kissena Corridor, >nicely graded for rail service, plus some useful highway medians .... we >engineers can build all sorts of stuff in all sorts of places. But there's no electric link to the hudson line, and you'd have to change at Penn for NJT. Besides, connecting LGA is one thing, but JFK ought to be conected too. I'm not fammilliar with the Kissena Corridor, so I can't comment on it. >5) Subway to JFK would be easily a 45 minute to an hour ride from >midtown, to say nothing of uptown. Hence an express express, aka Train To The Plane (tm) >The train can halve that. Only if the east river tunnels can handle the capacity, never mind the extra people at Penn during rush hour :) >And the LIRR can be extended from its present terminus to downtown. How?? You'd have a mess at the west end of Penn durring rush hour, and where'd it go anyway? Unless you want to bore another tunnel at the lower tip and connect with the Flatbush Ave LIRR line. Which wouldn't be a bad idea anyway, actually, if it went up near City Hall (4,5,6, etc), It would be downright useful. You'd also get easy easy side acess too. >6) No subway plan takes into account the possibility of replacing air >flights with trains. Given Amtrak's record with High Speed rail, this is a moot issue.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway-Airport Link
        Message Number: 759247
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:12 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Subway-Airport Link posted by Adam on November 04, 1997 at 18:27:00: Every proposal for an airport rail link ends in failure because of the same shortcomings. Either the links are not seemless - requiring train changes or the equipment used is not traveler friendly (Ie: No luggage racks or heavy crowds and no one wants to start their trip in a crush load) or because of urban congestion, the routes available are either too costly or politically unpopular to build. It is for these reasons that I believe that any rail link to JFK or LaGuardia would only be marginally successful at best. Optimally, the rail link should be an integral part of the initial airport planning. However, there are exceptions to every rule and such is the case with NYs 3rd reigonal airport, MacArthur. Oddly enough, the north perimeter of Islip-MacArthur airport sits on the south side of Railroad Avenue which also borders on the Ronkonkoma Yard of the LIRR. Less than 1500 feet of track would need to be installed over mostly unused land and you'd have the ideal airport/rail link. Now, who would use MacArthur Airport? Since USAir, Delta, American and Carnival all service it, MacArthur is already a reasonably busy reigonal airport. A rail link from the Ronkonkoma branch of the LIRR would put Mac- Arthur within 60 minutes of midtown at minimal cost. Travelers who try - at all costs, to avoid LaGuardia & Kennedy might give it a try. My belief is that this would prove to be a success in that it would provide business and vacation travelers with an alternative airport. The 60 minutes (Seemless) trip to MacArthur would be far more desireable than a 45 minute (non-seamless) trip to LaGuardia or JFK. More importantly, it would put an end to the notion, once and for all, that an Airport/Rail link won't generate traffic for either.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway-Airport Link
        Message Number: 759257
        Posted by: Prfnoff
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Subway-Airport Link posted by ANthony Pardi on November 06, 1997 at 22:56:36: The LaGuardia connection could utilize the former express track on the N "Astoria" line. Only problem, though, it's just three tracks, and a fourth track might be needed.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway-Airport Link
        Message Number: 759275
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:34 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway-Airport Link posted by Andrew Byler on November 06, 1997 at 19:40:40: Re: Kissena corridor If you mean the park corridor leading east from Flushing Meadows, you'll have a tough fight ahead. The LIRR line that ran through there to Creedmoor and Floral Park (not to Jamaica) has been gone for many decades and has since been taken over by parks, playgrounds, ball fields and houses. At one point near the Flushing Meadow end there is even a wildlife sanctuary. It goes through some very nice suburban neighborhoods who might get rather pissed at losing their local park land to a questionable rail line.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway-Airport Link
        Message Number: 759289
        Posted by: Annonymous, but informed
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Subway-Airport Link posted by Andrew Byler on November 04, 1997 at 19:34:16: The JFK rail link, is not a mono-rail system but a "light rail" system (in the olden days they were called "El's".) Using todays definition, the existing NYC subway would be a "heavy rail" system. Anyway, the JFK rail link will consist of a loop around JFK, with stops at each terminal and parking lot and two spurs, one to the Howard Beach station of the A train and a second spur, which would run along the center median of the Van Wyck to the Jamaica Center subway terminal. The JFK rail link will not directly connect to the NYC subway, and NYC subway cars will not utilize it. In fact, the two systems will be incompatible, with the rail link utilizing cars that run on AC propulsion, with an automated signaling system (i.e.: not motormen or conductors required). The reason the JFK rail link can not be an extension of the NYC subway has to do with the way it is being funded. The bulk of the funding is being paid for by the passenger ticket surcharge, which is added to every ticket for a flight leaving JFK/LGA/EWR. The federal government originially mandated that this money could only be spent on airport construction or modernization projects. Airport access projects could only be funded with this money if they were within the airport boundaries. After much lobying by various Airport Authority's and various politicians, the federal government allowed the use of this money for projects outside of airports, only if they improved access to an airport, and said access improvments would be dedicated to airport use. (i.e.: you couldn't use it to repair local streets near an airport and call it an airport improvement) Because of this, an extension of the NYC subway could not be paid for with the airport surcharge money, because the subways are clearly used for more than airport access. As a result, the proposed JFK rail link can only make limited stops outside of the airport, to ensure that it's passengers will only be utilizing it to get to and from the airport. For a real subway exension to the airports to get done, it must be funded and built by the MTA. New York State and NYC do not want to come up with the money for this. Since the Port Authority has the money, they want them to build it. The laws that created the PA were written to explicitly forbid them from spending money raised by PA tolls and bonds on non-PA projects (i.e.: a New York City Subway extension). And this, my dear gentlemen is why the JFK rail link has this form you are complaining about. Unless George and Rudy get together and come up with the $$$, and stop trying to use the PA to fund it, there won't be a direct subway connection. (They won't tell you this and instead blame it on PA incompetence). P.S.: The Governor of New York jointly runs the PA, with the Governor of N.J. and appoints it's Executive Director and 6 of it's 12 commissioners. The PA does not undertake any project or spend any money for capital construction without the approval of both Governors. Each Governor also can veto any action taken by the PA Board Of Commissioners. Since the PA was created in 1921, this has never happened. So, if there are any complaints about this plan, dont blame the PA (like Rudy - he knows the truth but won't directly confront George), but complain to the Governor.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway-Airport Link
        Message Number: 759303
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:56 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Subway-Airport Link posted by ANthony Pardi on November 06, 1997 at 22:56:36: Sounds great to me. I there a possible bus link to do that now?
        
        Subject: Re: Subway-Airport Link
        Message Number: 759306
        Posted by: Andrew Byler
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway-Airport Link posted by Philip Nasadowski on November 07, 1997 at 00:15:39: > Please note that I'm not trying to start a flame war here - intellegent > disscussion of this issue can only lead to a solution that suits > everybody - and works. No flammage is meant, I hope none was taken. 1) Regarding voltages and frequencies, I thought up a happy medium. Amtrak is still using 12.5 kV, 25 cycle power on the south end, while the new North End electrifcation will be commerical 25 kV 60 cycle power, so the new high speed equipment on order will provide for both, plus MN's 12.5 kV 60 cycle. The reason for the lower voltage on MN and the south end is low clearances, which do not provide sufficient height to prevent arcing. This is especially true with the New York and Baltimore tunnels. Now to solve possible current conflicts here's a solution - change the transition zone to near Sunnyside Yard, and rework the short stretch from there to New Rochelle for the higher cycles. That way, MN can use all present equipment. 3) (I guess point 2 was non-controversial) Monorails / people movers. These are admittedly a flop outside Wuppertal, Germany - except in airports. Tons of newer terminals have these, and they work quite well - Atlanta, Newark, O'Hare, Denver all come to mind. In fact, following Newark's example, plans are afoot to extend O'Hare's to the new O'Hare train station. 4) Having looked over my Falkplan map of New York, My mention of Kissena corridor was clearly a mistake. Here's what I can see in the way of connecting up the airports. a) From LaGuardia, the line would follow the corridor between the Grand Central Parkway and Ditmars Blvd. At Astoria Blvd., one branch would continue along the parkway until it connected with the Hell Gate viaduct and heads for MN's New Haven line. Another leg would turn south towards the BQE, and cut across the various interchanges (deftly avoiding "grave" controversy at St. Michaels Cemetery), where it would branch again, one leg joining the Amtrak line to Penn Sta., the other swinging southeast and joining the old LIRR/PRR Brooklyn frieght line. A final junction east of Woodise would join this line to the LIRR main line and the Port Washington branch (perhaps using air-rghts over the middle of Queens Blvd). Electrification using overhead catenary (for which poles already exist - or did exist - on the freight line) and over-running third rail. This would provide LaGuardia serivce to midtown, the Hudson Line, New Jersey, Connecticut, and Long Island. Possible service patterns? What about a train every 30 minutes from Hicksville/Ronkonkoma/Huntington (pick your choice), Babylon, and Stamford. Every hour from Dover, NJ, Trenton, and Poughkeepsie (train would have to be dual power using over running third rail or catenary for power). The New Jersey Transit trains could be simple extensions of existing runs. When the 63rd St. Tunnel connection to Grand Central is built, an additional 30 minute frequency could be added. This provides 15 minute frequencies to midtown and Jamaica. Getting to Downtown is tougher. Some thoughts to kick around - the old West Side line south from Penn Station, down Canal St. to the unused center express tracks on the BMT-Broadway to City Hall, then snaking around the World Trade Center, perhaps down Washington St. (there's probably a utility corridor under the complex, as with Greenwich St.), under the Brooklyn Battery tunnel till clear of Battery Park and under the East River to Atlantic Ave. b) JFK bound trains could head for the same destinations. Construction or rebuilding needed would be a connection out the Van Wyck to Howard Beach, up the old Rockaway line to the junction at Rego Park. Connection to Jamaica could be made at Atlantic Ave. Connection to Valley Stream and Babylon could possibly be through/under the park seperating Laurelton and Rosedale via the other side of JFK (this could allow a through circulation of LIRR trains from Hicksville to Babylon and return). Obviously, many of the connections mentiond above are necessary for this project as well - the two should work in tandem. 5) More tunnels under the east river at Penn are not necessarily needed. The ladder from tracks 1-13 at the west end needs to be connected across to hit the LIRR used tracks on the north side - this takes two extra double slip switches - a couple hundred thousand bucks tops. Further, the theoretical future entracne of the LIRR to Grand Central will go along way to reducing pressure on these tunnels. A bigger choke point? Penn Sta. to Newark - which eventually is going to need at least one more tunnel and one or two more tracks on the outside. 6) Amtrak will eventually have high-speed on the NEC. And if not them due to bankruptcy, termination, etc., a northeast regional agency will be created to continue running trains in this area - they are simply too important. Whether the vision exists within that company to workout such an arrangement as proposed is questionable. Its practical feasibility is not. In fact, all service between Philly and New York in the air could be replaced with trains from those airports. Ditto for BWI. Perhaps the disappearance of Amtrak and its replacement with a regional agency up this way would be a good thing - we could - possibly - unite the corridor with the commuter trains again to most efficiently move the customers. Price of these various schemes - probably a few billion smackers - no worse than PATH's various schemse, but serving a lot more people. Practicality of these schemes - entirely feasible from an engineering standpoint, potentially feasible politcally if enough asses and rings are kissed by the right people. Oh for a benevolent dictator or monarch! Andy
        
        Subject: Re: Subway-Airport Link
        Message Number: 759360
        Posted by: Lefty
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Subway-Airport Link posted by Steve on November 07, 1997 at 00:17:49: that sounds like a very good idea that i havent thought of at all and i didnt see anyone on this site say anythign about it. it would also help to reduce traffic into laguardia and JFK, and just give people more options in general.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway-Airport Link
        Message Number: 759448
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway-Airport Link posted by Annonymous, but informed on November 09, 1997 at 00:27:31: I'll say you're informed! This is just one more petty rule that was put in place to "protect" funds from one mode being used for a "competitor". Congress thought they could eliminate this silliness by creating a Dept. of Transportation 25+ years ago, but as an employee for all those years, I'm sorry to report that the rivalry won't go away. And the saddest thing about it is, more often than not the restrictions on the funding come back to complicate good projects that both modes should embrace.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway-Airport Link
        Message Number: 759454
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway-Airport Link posted by Anthony PArdi on November 06, 1997 at 22:54:17: As "Anonymous but informed" tried to explain tactfully, the problem is not engineering, but political. The money that is available is from airport user funds. Congress, in it's wisdom, put language in the funding act to prevent "diversion" of these funds to other modes of travel, i.e. roads and transit. Never mind that all modes would be well served by the extension of the Subway, unless Congress acts to amend the rules, Light Rail will be forced down NY travelers throats.

Thread title: J/Z skip stop (759141)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:41:47 1997, by Shunya

Subject: J/Z skip stop
Message Number: 759141
Posted by: Shunya
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:47 1997

I do agree, this line is SLOW. I was on it a couple of days ago and it takes forever!! if the MTA want people to rely on that, they're gonna have to make somesort of express train, or at least make the J or Z go express from myrtle ave. to B'way Junction. but still it would be way too slow. why don't they use that "elevated" express line that's over part of the alabama av. station and extend that to cresent st. costly, noisy but still time is what most commuters care for.....

Thread title: Re: Subway-Airport Link (long) (759148)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:41:53 1997, by Philip Nasadowski

Subject: Re: Subway-Airport Link (long)
Message Number: 759148
Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:53 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway-Airport Link posted by Andrew Byler on November 04, 1997 at 19:34:16: Sorry to burst any bubbles - but linking either airports with the Port Washington line isn't going to do much besides give out of towners a ride on one of the LIRR's beautiful M-1s ;) The Port Washington line doesn't go through Jamaica, which makes it useless for any routing out onto the island. Unless you turn the Port Washington line ouit toward Jamacia where it meets up at Woodside. And Metro-North going accross the Hell's gate won't happen partly because a) Slamtrak owns that trackage, and b) it's 25 cycle anyway. I don't think the M-4s or 6s can run on 25 cycle AC, although the 2s should be able to. By the time you go through all the red tape, all the ROW improvements, and all the new trackage, it's just not worth it...

Thread title: Bus From Jersey City to New York (759151)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:41:55 1997, by John

Subject: Bus From Jersey City to New York
Message Number: 759151
Posted by: John
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:41:55 1997

Does anybody have any information about a bus operating between Journal Square and the Port Authority? All I know is that the bus has a dark blue band on the side of it. What is tha fare, frequency of service, etc?????
- Subject: Re: Bus From Jersey City to New York
- Message Number: 759196
- Posted by: Scruffy
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:31 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Bus From Jersey City to New York posted by John on November 04, 1997 at 22:02:11: The bus company is Trans-Hudson Express, Inc. (used to be Drogin Bus Co.)... The fare for the bus is $2.60. I recommend using the Path train (by taking the 33rd Street line)... This will leave you at 33rd Street & 6th Avenue... If you want to walk, you can do so... If not, take the N or R train 1 stop to Times Square, and it'll leave you a block from the PA... Either way, you'll save money...

Thread title: Re: New Bus Stop Signs(To David Pirmann) (759157)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:00 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Re: New Bus Stop Signs(To David Pirmann)
Message Number: 759157
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:00 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: New Bus Stop Signs posted by Fernando Perez on November 05, 1997 at 00:52:09: Any chance of posting some pictures of those new signs on this site, for the benefit of those of us who are geographically challenged? Thanks, as always for your efforts.
- Subject: Re: New Bus Stop Signs(To David Pirmann)
- Message Number: 759159
- Posted by: chris
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:02 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: New Bus Stop Signs(To David Pirmann) posted by Charles Fiori on November 05, 1997 at 07:56:40: I would like to see the new signs,,I am stuck here in Mass tilll December ,for the last 18 mos
  - Subject: Re: New Bus Stop Signs(To David Pirmann)
  - Message Number: 759161
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:03 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: New Bus Stop Signs(To David Pirmann) posted by Charles Fiori on November 05, 1997 at 07:56:40: Well, this is not primarily a bus site, and personally I have little interest, so I won't be going out to get any pics of bus signs any time soon, but if someone wants to send some along I'll find a place for them. -Dave
    - Subject: Re: New Bus Stop Signs(To David Pirmann)
    - Message Number: 759279
    - Posted by: charlie muller
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:37 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: New Bus Stop Signs(To David Pirmann) posted by chris on November 05, 1997 at 08:36:47: i have the same new signs in the bedford park blvd section of the bronx. also there are also where i work near radio city music hall. there are nice but i have to strain my neck to really see them. i think they will put the skeds up once all the new signs are in place.
      - Subject: Re: New Bus Stop Signs(To David Pirmann)
      - Message Number: 759281
      - Posted by: charlie muller
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: New Bus Stop Signs(To David Pirmann) posted by chris on November 05, 1997 at 08:36:47: i have the same new signs in the bedford park blvd section of the bronx. also there are also where i work near radio city music hall. there are nice but i have to strain my neck to really see them. i think they will put the skeds up once all the new signs are in place.
        
        Subject: Re: New Bus Stop Signs(To David Pirmann)
        Message Number: 759311
        Posted by: charlie muller
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: New Bus Stop Signs(To David Pirmann) posted by charlie muller on November 08, 1997 at 04:57:11: for more information on the new bus stop signs, there is a good article in the monday november 10, 1997 ny daily news on page 3. according to the article there are compliments and there are also complaints. charlie muller

Thread title: Re: Buses (Orions) with 1 less back seat (759160)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:02 1997, by Wayne Johnson

Subject: Re: Buses (Orions) with 1 less back seat
Message Number: 759160
Posted by: Wayne Johnson
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:02 1997

In Reply to: [5]SIRR stations posted by Costa on November 04, 1997 at 17:59:59: The buses you're referring to with a missing seat in the back are the Orion V buses. The middle seat has been eliminated for a total of four instead of the usual five across. This has been done on all newest (1995, 1996) Orion V buses that are equipped with the Detroit Diesel Series 50 (4 cylinder) engine. The fleet numbers are 292-297,299,300,400-580 & 620-680. The first group of Orion V's (1993) bought by NYCT were equipped with the older Detroit Diesel 6V92 (6 cylinder) engine and they have all five seats across in the back. The fleet numbers for this group are 101-291,298,301-316. I don't know for sure, but I suspect the reason for this missing back seat on the newer Orions is directly related to the Series 50-4 cylinder engine in these buses. I think the new engine requires more room as it's longer due to it's in-line (rather than V) design. Also Westchester County's Bee Line also has about 110 (1996) Orion V's with the series 50 engine and they also have the bars in place of the middle back seat. Also Prevost, the Canadian amnufacturer of the popular H-series over the road coaches actually extended their 40 foot model by a foot in oeder to provide enough clearance for the Series 60 engine, which is essentially the same as the Series 50, but it's a 6 cylinder version. That is it's a in-line 6, not a V-6. So now their old 40 foot model the H3-40 is now the H3-41 which is 41 feet long. I realized I rambled on here, but I hope this is a clear explanation.
- Subject: Re: Buses (Orions) with 1 less back seat
- Message Number: 759177
- Posted by: John
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:16 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Buses (Orions) with 1 less back seat posted by Wayne Johnson on November 05, 1997 at 09:35:23: Isn't that the seat that also gets pretty hot? Maybe the REAL reason they removed it is so that nobody gets burned in the boooo-teeeee :-)

Thread title: Re: New Bus Stop Signs WHERE SCHEDULE?? (759163)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:05 1997, by Lou

Subject: Re: New Bus Stop Signs WHERE SCHEDULE??
Message Number: 759163
Posted by: Lou
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:05 1997

In Reply to: [5]New Bus Stop Signs posted by Hank Eisenstein on November 04, 1997 at 15:36:30: Okay I like the new signs, thicker pole and higher up but at my stop at Bay Parkway and Bath Ave there is a new sign for the B82 and B6 but the old one with the schedule is GONE. Isn't there anyway they can get the new sign and keep the old info box with the schedule info/route map???
- Subject: Re: New Bus Stop Signs WHERE SCHEDULE??
- Message Number: 759191
- Posted by: David L.
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:27 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: New Bus Stop Signs WHERE SCHEDULE?? posted by Lou on November 05, 1997 at 10:42:09: They will eventually put up the the schedules. Right now they are still working on it.

Thread title: Re: NO STRIKE--NO TROUBLES --No P on Wall (759166)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:07 1997, by Lou

Subject: Re: NO STRIKE--NO TROUBLES --No P on Wall
Message Number: 759166
Posted by: Lou
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:07 1997

In Reply to: [5]NO STRIKE--NO TROUBLES posted by John on November 02, 1997 at 22:18:58: Well I guess that means no P train or "Transfer for a P agianst the wall"...

Thread title: SIRR improvements (759168)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:09 1997, by Gary Jacobi

Subject: SIRR improvements
Message Number: 759168
Posted by: Gary Jacobi
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:09 1997

Just happened to stumble on this tidbit in our agency's briefing material... STATEN ISLAND RAILROAD In 1996, $4.7 million of Congestion Mitigation and Air Quality Improvement (CMAQ) program funds were obligated to help reactivate the Staten Island Railroad between New Jersey and Howland Hook Marine Terminal by rehabilitating the Arthur Kill rail bridge and restoring the Arlington spur. The revitalized rail line will extend direct rail freight access to a major intermodal facility in New York City, support the movement of maritime containers in and out of the Howland Hook facility, and transport an estimated 105 rail cars per week from a new recycling plant next to the Arlington spur. The second phase using an additional $2million of CMAQ funds will involve the purchase of a new float bridge at the Howland Hook Marine Terminal.

Thread title: Re:Oops I meant " work". (759170)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:10 1997, by sdc

Subject: Re:Oops I meant " work".
Message Number: 759170
Posted by: sdc
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:10 1997

In Reply to: [6]Restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service posted by Michael on November 02, 1997 at 16:21:30: speaking of restoring things how is the manhattan bridge working proceeding, when are we going to have the Sea Beach Express back online? foti

Thread title: 49th Street Station (759172)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:12 1997, by Albert

Subject: 49th Street Station
Message Number: 759172
Posted by: Albert
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:12 1997

Can anyone tell me what is the story behind the "orange bricks" at the 49th Street station on the N/R line. This is probably unique in terms of coloring. Don't get me wrong I don'tfind anything wrong with this design. Even the platform is different from the others, Just curious as to why was this design put into place.
- Subject: Re: 49th Street Station
- Message Number: 759198
- Posted by: subway-buff
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:32 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]49th Street Station posted by Albert on November 05, 1997 at 15:02:31: the wall street 4/5 station is bright blue wall tile. They date back to the 1970s "mall" mentality. I dont know when/if they will re-do these stations, but now the NYCT is trying to have white walls in all the stations to simplify cleaning--one set. Just recently they removed the green from 59/lex express and have redone cortlandt BMT and Canal BMT to remove to "new look" tiles in fgavor of the older :white style" tiles. Floor treatment is also different at Franklin st IRT and I think houston st IRT.
  - Subject: Re: 49th Street Station
  - Message Number: 759201
  - Posted by: Michael Berson
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:35 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]49th Street Station posted by Albert on November 05, 1997 at 15:02:31: From what I rememeber, 49th Street was a test bed for some type of station sound-proofing. I think the ornge bricks were part of the design.
    - Subject: Re: 49th Street Station
    - Message Number: 759226
    - Posted by: Albert
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:54 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: 49th Street Station posted by Michael Berson on November 05, 1997 at 22:41:37: Thank you for the info. The sound-proofing to come to of, now comes into my mind because I notice the ceiling above the tracks do look like sound-proof ceilings. In addition I do find the 49th Street Station rather quiet.
      - Subject: Re: 49th Street Station
      - Message Number: 759240
      - Posted by: Anthony Pardi
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: 49th Street Station posted by Albert on November 06, 1997 at 14:07:50: from what I remember the 49st sta was a pilot prgam during the 70's for future modernization projects which of course were canned due to budget constraints. I agree even with a train occaisionally speeding past on the express track the quietness of the station. We need more stations as such
        
        Subject: Re: 49th Street Station
        Message Number: 759266
        Posted by: Eric B
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: 49th Street Station posted by subway-buff on November 05, 1997 at 20:54:29: Actually, the Wall St station (which is dark blue) is from the mid-80's rebuilding program. Done around the same time as Borough Hall and Fulton St, it combines the new tiles with some old-style ones in the and a wooden token booth. Now, Bowling Green is one that was done around the same time as 49th St. These two stations were my favorite 70's look, and Borough Hall and Fulton were my favorite 80's "old look renaissance" stations.

Thread title: 57th Street Station (759173)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:12 1997, by Albert

Subject: 57th Street Station
Message Number: 759173
Posted by: Albert
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:12 1997

When the local train, N or R train that is, leaves the 57th St staion going towards Queens, I notice that the express tracks go up. Where do they go? I know they cannot go to far up or else they would reach the street level, and then end up in Central Park. Do they turn right and somehow hook up with the 63rd street tunnel or do they just stop just after they rise up? If they do somehow link up with the Q line then when the tunnel extension is complete the R train can folow that route, giving us two R train routes into Queens.
- Subject: Re: 57th Street Station
- Message Number: 759175
- Posted by: John
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:14 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]57th Street Station posted by Albert on November 05, 1997 at 15:13:56: Those tracks do indeed connect with the 63rd Street line, and in fact, the Q used those tracks back in the summer of 1995 when it was rerouted onto Broadway because of Manhattan Bridge construction.
  - Subject: Re: 57th Street Station
  - Message Number: 759179
  - Posted by: Albert
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:17 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: 57th Street Station posted by John on November 05, 1997 at 15:33:20: Thank you John for the quick response.
    - Subject: Re: 57th Street Station
    - Message Number: 759237
    - Posted by: ANthony Pardi
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:04 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: 57th Street Station posted by John on November 05, 1997 at 15:33:20: the center tracks at 57 st north of the station connect to the 63rd st line, which when needed due to service reroutes via 6th av or 7th av due to Manhattan Br closings.
      - Subject: Re: 57th Street Station
      - Message Number: 759280
      - Posted by: Andrew Huie
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: 57th Street Station posted by John on November 05, 1997 at 15:33:20: I think they were used even more recently than that. What's surprising though, is that they haven't been used since not even for storage. The tracks just outside the Lex Ave. station are covered with rust, and some fencing has been put alongside the Q tracks right over the switch.
        
        Subject: Re: 57th Street Station
        Message Number: 759285
        Posted by: Eric
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: 57th Street Station posted by Andrew Huie on November 08, 1997 at 04:58:11: These tracks are out of service for replacement of the track bed. This work will also spread to the rest of the 63rd St. line, as the TA found that the current track bed was faulty.

Thread title: "Movie" in Tunnel (759174)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:13 1997, by Albert

Subject: "Movie" in Tunnel
Message Number: 759174
Posted by: Albert
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:13 1997

About 10 years I was with my family, going into Brooklyn one night. In one of the tunnels in Brooklyn, my bother and I, noticed something very nice. The side of the tunnel all of a sudden lit up with bright colorful images of fruit bowls or something to that matter. It was such a long time ago that I'm not even sure if it was actually in Brooklyn or going towards it from Manhattan. But I know it was Brooklyn or near it because I remember our parents saying that we're going to Bklyn. Is this "movie in the tunnel" still there? Where is it exactly? Someone once told me back in my high school days that it was an old subway station that used to have a theatre on top (street level) and that you were able to go directly from the theatre to the subway down below, but the theatre had burned down. Is this also true?
- Subject: Re: "Movie" in Tunnel
- Message Number: 759176
- Posted by: RAC93
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:15 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]"Movie" in Tunnel posted by Albert on November 05, 1997 at 15:28:09: I think that I know what you are talking about. After DeKalb Ave, when heading towards manhatten, there is an abandoned station called Myrtle Ave. that was closed some time ago. On that platform they had some sort of artwork visible through slits in a wall that resembled an animated movie except that the train was moving and not the artwork. I moved from New York in 1989 and I remember that part well. I don't know if the artwork is still there, since I haven't been there since 1993. A good way to learn about these things and a whole lot of other things is to check out the subway maps and the track maps on this site. In the transfer station there is a game called Bahn which simulates subway systems. It is really cool because there are subway division maps that people have made for the game. You should check it out.
  - Subject: Re: "Movie" in Tunnel
  - Message Number: 759181
  - Posted by: Albert
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:19 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: "Movie" in Tunnel posted by RAC93 on November 05, 1997 at 15:38:55: Thank you RAC93
    - Subject: Re: "Movie" in Tunnel
    - Message Number: 759185
    - Posted by: RAC93
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:22 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: "Movie" in Tunnel posted by Albert on November 05, 1997 at 16:03:53: No Problem, glad I could help...
      - Subject: Re: "Movie" in Tunnel
      - Message Number: 759189
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]"Movie" in Tunnel posted by Albert on November 05, 1997 at 15:28:09: RAC93 is correct, and I might add that I have read that the display has fallen into disrepair, and is no longer visible as a moving image.
        
        Subject: Re: "Movie" in Tunnel
        Message Number: 759192
        Posted by: Scruffy
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: "Movie" in Tunnel posted by RAC93 on November 05, 1997 at 15:38:55: Just to give you a little update, that beautiful artwork has been ruined by grafitti... Now, when you pass by, it is unlit... With the light from the train, you can see that it has been vandalized... Hopefully, with some recent talk about re-opening the Myrtle Avenue station there, you may get the artwork back...
        
        Subject: Re: "Movie" in Tunnel
        Message Number: 759194
        Posted by: David L.
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: "Movie" in Tunnel posted by RAC93 on November 05, 1997 at 15:38:55: It's sad to say, but that artwork has been long gone due to vandalism. For a while it remained lit with grafitti on it, but sometime last year or the year before the lights were shut off, and now you don't see anything.

Thread title: Stations (759178)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:17 1997, by Al

Subject: Stations
Message Number: 759178
Posted by: Al
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:17 1997

Wasn't there an entrance to Gimbels or Alexander's department store on the platform of 6 train (59th Street Station)? When will they complete the renovation at the 14th St-Union Square Station? I'm tired of seeing those blue wooden walls? Also I've noticed they have stopped announcing that warning at this station, "Please stand clear of the moving platform when....!, where the 4,5,6 stop. Why so?
- Subject: Re: Stations
- Message Number: 759187
- Posted by: subway-buff
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:23 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Stations posted by Al on November 05, 1997 at 15:44:06: The store at 59 and Lex was Alexanders. The entrance is gone as is the store. Speaking of entrances, there also usedf to be an underpass between Manhattan and Brooklyn Trains at Hoyt Street IRT and also to the store now known as Macy's.
  - Subject: Re: Stations
  - Message Number: 759220
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:50 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Stations posted by Al on November 05, 1997 at 15:44:06: Don't forget there was (is?, poss. closed for security reasons?) an entrance to Bloomie's from the uptown 6 @ 59-Lex. [Haven't been for a while, so don't remember.]
    - Subject: Re: Stations
    - Message Number: 759221
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:50 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Stations posted by subway-buff on November 05, 1997 at 17:22:53: Was this entrance at platform level like the one at Hoyt St was or did you have to traverse some steps? Isn't there an entrance into Bloomingdales also around 59th St? Also, was there a direct entrance into Gimbels when it was in Herald Square? And wasn't there one around 14th St into Havemyers (I think I have this spelled wrong; it was a store created by a John Havemyer IIRC). I was just discussing this with some folks at a train show in Poughkeepsie, NY this past Sunday. Interesting that the same topic just popped up here. --Mark
      - Subject: Re: Stations
      - Message Number: 759222
      - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Stations posted by subway-buff on November 05, 1997 at 17:22:53: Was this entrance at platform level like the one at Hoyt St was or did you have to traverse some steps? Isn't there an entrance into Bloomingdales also around 59th St? Also, was there a direct entrance into Gimbels when it was in Herald Square? And wasn't there one around 14th St into Havemyers (I think I have this spelled wrong; it was a store created by a John Havemyer IIRC). I was just discussing this with some folks at a train show in Poughkeepsie, NY this past Sunday. Interesting that the same topic just popped up here. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Stations
        Message Number: 759224
        Posted by: Al
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:53 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Stations posted by Charles Fiori on November 06, 1997 at 12:06:36: Your'e right there was a entrance to Bloomingdale's where the 6 train stops at 59th ST. I just got off the uptown 6 train at 59th St today and did not notice the entrance to Bloomingdale's. I now know for a fact it no longer exists because the store is longer there (I think). One of the reasons why they may have closed the entrance was because of security. I now rememeber reading an article in the paper about how the gangs used to wait by the exit into the subway till they heard the train coming then when they did hear the train coming the gang would do a mad rush for the exit and grab whatever merchandise they can, before jumping onto the train.
        
        Subject: Re: Stations
        Message Number: 759225
        Posted by: Al
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Stations posted by Mark S Feinman on November 06, 1997 at 13:15:30: Yes indeed it was at platform level. Wasn't to sure if was at this station (59th St) until now. According to Charles it was a Bloomingdale's entrance. Closed for what what Charles think and me, now that I remember, for security reasons.
        
        Subject: Re: Stations
        Message Number: 759278
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Stations posted by Mark S Feinman on November 06, 1997 at 13:15:30: Argh, now you guys have gotten me started! 8-) Alright, at Hoyt Street there was what I believe a platform-level entrance into A&S Department store. I never used it, but I do remember being shocked at seeing the IRT beyond some doors in the basement. Whether or not the building still exists, I don't know; Macy's may have abandoned it. Gimbel's and EJ Korvette's both had entrances to the subway at Herald Square. Gimbel's had a modest basement entrance (nothing like the glitzy entrance to ex-A&S plaza) while Korvette's had a stairway in one of their entrance vestibules. Dont't know if the building which replaced Korvette's (the name escapes me at the moment, is it Herald Center?) has an internal subway entrance, but I believe it used to when it first opened. As for Gimbels, if you go to the PATH station at 33rd and look to the right, there might still be a section of wall which was never renovated, that still says 'Gimbels'. The Herald Square station had/has a couple of hotel entrances at the 32nd St. and Bway entrance, but one of them was covered up when the station was rebuilt, and the other is only open to staff. At Union Square the only entrance I know of was the one to the abandoned S. Klein department store, which disappeared when the building was torn down and the whole area rebuilt. It even had an unused neon sign over the entrance. 23rd St. and Lex has the entrance into MetLife. Astor Place has a new entrance (Kmart?). Apparently they're coming into vogue again! I always found it strange that Macy's at Herald Square never had an underground subway entrance of any sort, even though it sits next to 2 major stations.

Thread title: Re: A personal message to "Sammy" -- Comment (759182)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:20 1997, by RAC93

Subject: Re: A personal message to "Sammy" -- Comment
Message Number: 759182
Posted by: RAC93
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:20 1997

In Reply to: [5]A personal message to "Sammy" posted by Steve on October 29, 1997 at 00:23:20: I can understand where both of you are coming from. One thing that I can suggest is maybe to exchange E-mail addresses or something so that your "personal" messages stay that way. There are hundreds (maybe thousands) of people who check this website every couple of days and I personally don't think that a back and forth argument like the one posted above does not belong here. This is subTALK, not sub argue... Sorry if it sounds offensive. ( :-< ) RAC93

Thread title: For Steve & Sammy (759184)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:21 1997, by RAC93

Subject: For Steve & Sammy
Message Number: 759184
Posted by: RAC93
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:21 1997

Damn! Sounds like a Family Feud to me... I think you guys really need a more private way to communicate with each other. I don't think that too many other "readers" to this site are interested about your on-going debate... Please do not mis-understand me, I am not trying to be disrespectful to either of you but this is an open forum you know... I personally don't mind the expression of opinion, but with you guys it feels like a played out, on-going saga. It's obvious that you both are well educated individuals with excellent experience within your respective backgrounds. RAC93
- Subject: Re: For Steve & Sammy
- Message Number: 759238
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:04 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]For Steve & Sammy posted by RAC93 on November 05, 1997 at 16:35:18: Look, there is no family feud or feud of any kind. There is just a genuine difference of opinions. I do not excuse poor service in the private sector or the public sector. I was also not defending poor service but rather trying to explain why things happen the way that they do, in an area in which I am fortunate to have some expertise. I was pleasantly suprised at the positive feedback I received. I am also aware that there are those that have the attitude of, "Don't confuse me with the facts. My mind is already made up." I have no interest in religeous conversion (mine or others), therefore, I would perfer to limit my involvement here to the honest discussion of legitimate transit issues. I will not permit myself to be drawn into trivial discussions involving the unrealistic. Please, let us drop the Sammy vs Steve issue once and for all.
  - Subject: Re: For Steve & Sammy
  - Message Number: 759239
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:05 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]For Steve & Sammy posted by RAC93 on November 05, 1997 at 16:35:18: Look, there is no family feud or feud of any kind. There is just a genuine difference of opinions. I do not excuse poor service in the private sector or the public sector. I was also not defending poor service but rather trying to explain why things happen the way that they do, in an area in which I am fortunate to have some expertise. I was pleasantly suprised at the positive feedback I received. I am also aware that there are those that have the attitude of, "Don't confuse me with the facts. My mind is already made up." I have no interest in religeous conversion (mine or others), therefore, I would perfer to limit my involvement here to the honest discussion of legitimate transit issues. I will not permit myself to be drawn into trivial discussions involving the unrealistic. Please, let us drop the Sammy vs Steve issue once and for all.

Thread title: Recent spate of duplicate postings (759186)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:23 1997, by David Pirmann - Web Site Host

Subject: Recent spate of duplicate postings
Message Number: 759186
Posted by: David Pirmann - Web Site Host
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:23 1997

Hello, I just went thru and removed about 15 duplicate postings (i.e. same exact message posted within a few seconds of each other). People, I realize the server (and the web) is slow as, well, slow. Once you hit Post Message, please don't hit it again. Please be patient until you get the posting confirmation screen. If you think it REALLY isn't working, open a second browser window and use the view by date screen ([6]http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/wbdate.pl) to see if your message is there or not. It might have been posted but confirmation never made it back to you. The delays are only compounded when the server has to deal with multiple submissions. -Dave
- Subject: Re: Recent spate of duplicate postings
- Message Number: 759190
- Posted by: Scruffy
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:26 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Recent spate of duplicate postings posted by David Pirmann - Web Site Host on November 05, 1997 at 16:41:08: Well said!

Thread title: Re: Stations: underground brooklyn department store history. (759188)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:24 1997, by Gary Jacobi

Subject: Re: Stations: underground brooklyn department store history.
Message Number: 759188
Posted by: Gary Jacobi
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:24 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: Stations posted by subway-buff on November 05, 1997 at 17:22:53: You want to talk about the way it WAS, then you have to mention that when the Fulton St. IRT subway opened, the stores were Loziers and Nams, and had display windows opening on the subway mezzanine level. They were out of business by the 40's, and Abraham and Strauss was the high end replacement, which I am guessing has been gobbled up by Macy's.

Thread title: Subway in the Movies (759197)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:31 1997, by Al

Subject: Subway in the Movies
Message Number: 759197
Posted by: Al
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:31 1997

I know that there have been several movies filmed in the subway. And this question might be hard to answer. If anybody saw the movie NIGHTHAWKS with Stallone, you may remember the subway scene where Stallone gets slashed. But before that all happens there is that chase scene where Stallone and the other cop are running after the terrorist. They run through a construction site were you see workers welding, hammering and fixing. If you remember this site was underground and led to I believe was the 57th Street Station N/R line. Can anyone tell me what this site was? Was it a subway construction site that they happened to use for the movie, or was it just something else? What were they building?
- Subject: Re: Subway in the Movies
- Message Number: 759235
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:02 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Subway in the Movies posted by Al on November 05, 1997 at 20:32:21: The scene which you are describing was shot in the 63rd Street tunnel around the 2nd Avenue cut (yes, there is a connection to the phantom 2nd Ave line) during the construction of the 63rd street line. In that area, the tunnel divides with one leg going to the 6th Ave IND and the other leg leading to the Broadway BMT line. Sylvester Stallone and Billy Dee Williams chased the evil Wolfgar into the BMT. Oddly, throughout the scene, the construction activities continued - uninterrupted. And yes it was the 57th St./7th Ave station.
  - Subject: Re: Subway in the Movies
  - Message Number: 759270
  - Posted by: Al
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:30 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Subway in the Movies posted by Steve on November 06, 1997 at 22:25:30: Thank you very much for the info. I've always wanted to know what thay were constructing there. I remember when I was watching the movie for the first time when it first came out in the theatres. My brother and I asked our father what they are making there. He told they were making another subway. From the scene I can actually see a huge open space where the, what I know are is the division between the BMT and IND lines. I believe that area does still exist and is used, but without the 2nd Ave line. I think those BMT tracks lead to the 57th Street station. What is ironic for me is, that the theatre where I saw Nighthawks is located at the UA Theatre @ 64th and 2nd Ave. The first came out about the beginning of the 80's, which explains how they were able to film that construction scene, for it is the 70's that saw the unfortunate end to the 2nd Ave Line project. Thanx again.

Thread title: Lets bring Back the "Movie in a tunnel" (759199)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:33 1997, by Nick

Subject: Lets bring Back the "Movie in a tunnel"
Message Number: 759199
Posted by: Nick
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:33 1997

Wow....this "movie in a tunnel" sounds pretty cool....I wish I had known about it before the lights were shut off, and before it was vandalised. We should send some e-mail to the MTA requesting that the lights be put back on, and maybe getting the grafitti removed. If the MTA can spend money to get grafitti off subway cars, and spend money on things like changing their logo (3 million $!), certainly they can find the green to restore this important part of subway history.-NICK
- Subject: Re: Lets bring Back the "Movie in a tunnel"
- Message Number: 759205
- Posted by: Joe M
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:38 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Lets bring Back the "Movie in a tunnel" posted by Nick on November 05, 1997 at 21:33:47: Will they let voluntees in to do it as an art in transit project? There may be funds available. You would definatly need permission and need to be safe when working at it. Get hooked up with an art group and submit a proposal Might work can't hurt.
  - Subject: Re: Lets bring Back the "Movie in a tunnel"
  - Message Number: 759206
  - Posted by: Joe M
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:39 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Lets bring Back the "Movie in a tunnel" posted by Nick on November 05, 1997 at 21:33:47: Will they let voluntees in to do it as an art in transit project? There may be funds available. You would definatly need permission and need to be safe when working at it. Get hooked up with an art group and submit a proposal Might work can't hurt.

Thread title: A third bus service between Brooklyn & Staten Island (759202)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:35 1997, by Mike

Subject: A third bus service between Brooklyn & Staten Island
Message Number: 759202
Posted by: Mike
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:35 1997

I read recently that NYCT is looking at providing a third Brooklyn to Staten Island bus service between the College Of Staten Island & Brooklyn which was included in the College of Staten Island Park & Ride lot as part of the recently completed Staten Island Transit Needs Assessment Study. If you have any information about this new route, please e-mail me.
- Subject: Re: A third bus service between Brooklyn & Staten Island
- Message Number: 759211
- Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:42 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]A third bus service between Brooklyn & Staten Island posted by Mike on November 05, 1997 at 23:16:54: They are actually studying adding a service to the SI Mall from Bklyn via CSI (s65 service) Would follow the 53 from Brooklyn to Victory Blvd, and then down Victory to CSI, Richmond Ave, and the Mall. The Transit Needs study provides for a lot at the unused overpasses in Sunnyside, near the former CSI Campus, with a dedicated express bus service to Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn. -Hank
  - Subject: Re: A third bus service between Brooklyn & Staten Island
  - Message Number: 759214
  - Posted by: chris
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:45 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: A third bus service between Brooklyn & Staten Island posted by Hank Eisenstein on November 06, 1997 at 03:55:45: are any other things being proposed,from this study christof@webtv.net thank you

Thread title: NYCT Staten Island bus electronic desination reading list (759203)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:36 1997, by Mike

Subject: NYCT Staten Island bus electronic desination reading list
Message Number: 759203
Posted by: Mike
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:36 1997

If anyone has the Staten Island bus electronic desination reading list for it's LOCAL routes for both Yukon & Castleton depots, please post them. I would greatly appreciate it.

Thread title: An Open Letter (759207)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:39 1997, by Sammy

Subject: An Open Letter
Message Number: 759207
Posted by: Sammy
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:39 1997

Hi Everyone: I appreciate all the responses I have received to my postings (that is for both the negative and the positive responses). That you respond is important to me, so everyone, thank you once again. My bone of contention is very simple, and Im sure a lot of people can see this. I think subway service is awful and can be improved. That's what I want my tax dollars going to. Here's a hypothetical situation. You go into, say, Saks knowing exactly what you want. We'll say, for argument's sake, that its a medium Ralph Lauren shirt in white. Standard issue, you can find it anywhere. As you shop, you can't find your size. You have a gift certificate you want to use in this case, and you approach a sales person. The person is nasty as can be, decides to do you a favor and check in the back. You are waiting and waiting. Finally, after asking other sales folk about his/her whereabouts, he/she rudely tells you she doesn't have your size. The options here are very simple. You can (1) walk away and not do business with them (thus doing business elsewhere but losing your certificate unless you want to use it at a future time). (2) complain to management (which may or may not have an effect) (3) settle for a size small in teal, which is not what you wanted. Well, guess what. Most of you, by your responses, have picked option (3). Now, am I supposed to throw my arms up and kiss the ground because I have even limited subway service? No way. My tax dollars and my votes count in this city. We are capable of so much more because we are the greatest city in the world. We deserve to have a top-notch transit system. You have to ask yourself why demographics are as they are here in the city. Very simple. When the poorer of the populace move here, they move where mass transit is plentiful. Robert Moses killed the heart of Brooklyn by eliminating subway service and not planning new projects. It sent central brooklyn into decay. Well, folks, that's happening again in Greenpoint, Wiliamsburgh and other neighborhoods. What good is having G service anywhere if it runs nowhere and becomes really underutilized? Then the MTA will point fingers, say "this isn't working" and close the line down or truncate it further. How incredibly stupid. But that's the MTA for you. Short sighted, yes indeed. Looking at the 63rd St. project, is it really needed? Yes and no. The Queens lines are over burdened, but closing down G service to allow Q service without a legitimate plan to upgrade/improve G service is robbing Greenpoint blind. The second avenue subway is vital and important to the continued economic success of the city. Ill take that over a new ball park any day (yes, I am a diehard Jets and Mets fan). Airport links? Why link Kennedy and LaGuardia other than to fatten someone's pockets? Most traffic leads away from airports to the city or suburbs. If the old LIRR spur is used for that purpose, then we'll talk. It all starts with people, at both the MTA and the unions. God forbid a token booth clerk should pick up a phone and ask what's going on if he/she thinks a train is delayed. God forbid that the passengers, the fare payers should be informed when delays happen. Look, delays will happen, but we need to be informed so we can make alternate plans. That's consideration! As I said it all starts with people and until I see improvement in service in this direction, I will use this as a public forum. It all starts with information and this is my intention. I will not settle when I know we are capable of so much more.
- Subject: Re: An Open Letter
- Message Number: 759208
- Posted by: Nathan
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:40 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]An Open Letter posted by Sammy on November 06, 1997 at 02:14:26: All governments work the same way, and they're all anti-rail... (I'm reminded of the 1990 VIA Cutbacks, closing a popular and needed transcontinental route with 15 weekly trains, to have it reinstated 2 years later (popular demand) but with only 3 instead of 15 trains...because the government favoured the airlines...grrrr)
  - Subject: Re: An Open Letter
  - Message Number: 759215
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:46 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]An Open Letter posted by Sammy on November 06, 1997 at 02:14:26: Your points are well-taken, especially with respect to the G line cutbacks and the airport service proposals. As far as the Saks analogy is concerned, well, the real problem is that Saks faces competition and the subway (by and large) doesn't. More than any other factor, the system's deficiencies are attributable to the lack of competition. Greedy unions, clueless management, meddlesome politicians, all of these bear some of the blame. But the subway's effective monopoly on mass transit in the city is the biggest cause by far. Trouble is, of course, that urban mass transit is a "natural monopoly" - we can hardly expect to see competing subways opening!
    - Subject: Re: An Open Letter
    - Message Number: 759216
    - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:46 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]An Open Letter posted by Sammy on November 06, 1997 at 02:14:26: You are 100% right that we should not accept poor service quietly. The folks who complain about your postings probably agree too, but differ in their opinion as to where the postings should be sent. As far as I am concerned, your postings are intelligent and literate; keep it up!
      - Subject: Re: An Open Letter
      - Message Number: 759217
      - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:47 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: An Open Letter posted by Peter Rosa on November 06, 1997 at 09:20:57: Remember, folks that when the city built the IND, its purpose was to compete with and decimate the privately owned IRT and BMT. Back in those days there was fierce competition among the subway operators. The 8th Av IND line was a direct competitor with the IRT Broadway line, 9th Av. el and the Jerome Line in the Bronx. Even though the 6th Av. Subway never actually competed with the 6th Av. el, it did siphon passengers from the IRT and BMT subway lines nearby. Likewise the Fulton St. Subway competed with a BMT line almost directly overhead. The IND offered better service, longer express runs and more modern equipment. Only the crosstown line and the Queens Line sought customers from new territory, and even then the Queens Line terminated within a few blocks of the Jamaica el and offered passengers from that area a far faster ride to Manhattan. Many of the problems faced by the subway today are products of that era. The loss of the east side els without any replacement is responsible for excessive traffic on the east side IRT. Had the IND been less competitive and more public minded when first built, unification would have still happened, and the need to replace the els with something else may have spurred a Second Avenue subway to completion long ago. (along with a BMT line to North Queens). Its hard to say "What if?", but anyone can see that the existing system still competes with itself in some areas while leaving others untouched. The G line has always been a poor stepsister to the rest of the system, since it is the only major line that doesn't enter Manhattan. Unfortunately, the best use for the 63rd St. tunnel may have been to connect it to the G instead of the Queens Line, perhaps creating a loop at Hoyt-Schermerhorn to provide something akin to London's Circle Line. Sammy, you need to be realistic about the transit system and its relation to this forum. Please remember that the people who post here are mostly those who have an interest in transit in the form of a hobby. You can get us all angry with you or you can try coming up with some positive ideas to improve the system. Just don't get upset if someone with a good handle on the system shoots your idea down. Post another idea, listen to others opinions, refine and repost. But please don't just complain. BTW if you really want to accomplish something, try running for local office, either in City Hall or Albany, where you can be heard in a true public forum, instead of just aggrevating a few transit buffs. I am a very patient person, and I prefer to encourage than to get out the flame thrower. Gerry
        
        Subject: Re: An Open Letter
        Message Number: 759218
        Posted by: Nick
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:48 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: An Open Letter posted by Nathan on November 06, 1997 at 02:21:09: I totally agree with you about the G line. I know what it is like to miss the G and have to wait 20 minutes for the next one. The G isn't the only problem, there certainly have been numerous cutbacks throughout the system. What really ticks me off is that they cut back on service 2 years ago when the fare was raised 25 cents. Now, lets see here...Price goes up, and quality of service goes down. Could there be something wrong with this?
        
        Subject: Re: An Open Letter
        Message Number: 759260
        Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:22 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: An Open Letter posted by Peter Rosa on November 06, 1997 at 09:20:57: >>system's deficiencies are attributable to the lack of competition I'd have to agree with that. Way back when Express bus service on staten island was on (IMHO) converted local buses with plastic semi-cushion seats. Then came the private operator with AC/TV reclining comfortable seats. Then the the new (Orians?) city express buses with the reclining seats and the even started to convert the older express buses by tearing out the old seat layout and installing the newer reclining seats. I think the competition as well as the great number of complaints brought this about (still waiting for the TV). There was even a point when they pulled the Flyer buses that the TA rented MCI buses that were much more comfortable then the current express fleet (bus drivers had problems with the manual door).
        
        Subject: Re: An Open Letter
        Message Number: 759277
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: An Open Letter posted by Nick on November 06, 1997 at 11:31:47: Yes. Governor Pataki taking away money specifically earmarked for mass transit for his own political purposes. Guiliani supported it because he was in the doghouse for supporting Cuomo, and the courts upheld it (or at least did nothing, which is the same thing). Result? Cost-cutting while increasing fares to cover the deficit. Just remember this the next time Pataki comes up for re-election.

Thread title: Boston Transit Quiz (759219)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:49 1997, by Gerry O'Regan

Subject: Boston Transit Quiz
Message Number: 759219
Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:49 1997

Hi Folks: I was surprised that only one person responded to the Boston Quiz. He scored a 61 on the freshman level and a 31 on the graduate level. Come on now, I've seen enough posts about Boston on this site to know that some of you can handle this. I'll post the answers after Veterans' Day Just for fun let's see who knows the most about the Boston Subway System. E-mail your answers to me and I will let you know your score. If you score a passing grade, I will send you the GRADUATE LEVEL QUIZ. It's got some really obscure trivia - have fun... Gerry (oregan@freud.mec.edu) or (oregan@stclare.mec.edu) EASY BOSTON SUBWAY QUIZ 1. Name the system's deepest underground station. 2. Name the only Rapid Transit Station to and from which a double fare is charged. 3. What do the Charlestown and Longfellow Bridges have in common? 4. What was Government Center Station was previously known as? 5. How could you get Charlie off the MTA? 6. What station has the longest distance between its northbound and southbound platforms? 7. What historic building has a subway lobby in its basement? 8. In 1924 Patriots Day and Easter fell on the same weekend. What major change happened on the Boston Elevated? 9. What do Cabot, Cadigan and Codman have in common? 10. What is the significance of 12:50 AM.

Thread title: X11 and Q113LTD Destination Sign Readings (759227)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:55 1997, by chris

Subject: X11 and Q113LTD Destination Sign Readings
Message Number: 759227
Posted by: chris
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:55 1997

does anyone have the readings for these additions ------format------ x11 reading number reading thank you christof@webtv.net

Thread title: The PA-5 is comming for path!!! (759230)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:57 1997, by Philip E. DOminguez

Subject: The PA-5 is comming for path!!!
Message Number: 759230
Posted by: Philip E. DOminguez
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:57 1997

The New PA-5 is being developed for path. I do not knoe many of the fetures but the will have transverse cabs. Path aims at getting rid of its conducters. I will inform you of the details as I get more info. -Phil
- Subject: Re: The PA-5 is comming for path!!!
- Message Number: 759283
- Posted by: subway-buff
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:40 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]The PA-5 is comming for path!!! posted by Philip E. DOminguez on November 06, 1997 at 19:48:46: What are they going to do with Exchange Place. This station only holds seven cars and they run 8 car trains and the conductor opens the rear of the train (last 7 cars). What other info do you have? will they look like the PA-4 cars. WIll PATH scrap any old cars (such as PA-1 to PA-3). Will they be single unit cars or will they be MU cars? If MU will there also be some single units since the 33 rd line only holds 7 cars (or will they extend those stations)
  - Subject: Re: The PA-5 is comming for path!!!
  - Message Number: 759288
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:44 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: The PA-5 is comming for path!!! posted by subway-buff on November 08, 1997 at 18:29:38: My guess is that the PA-5's will be single units just like all of the other PATH cars, to accommodate their varying train length. I've seen trains of 3, 6, 7, and 8 cars at various times of the day. Maybe some would be cab cars and some non-cab cars like the existing PA1's and PA2's. I heard that once they start receiving PA5 cars, the PA3 cars would be sent to be rebuilt. Once they start to come back, the PA1 and 2 class cars would be scrapped/moved to work service (allowing the K cars to be scrapped). As for OPTO and Exchange Place, that's an interesting question. I guess it's possible the platform could be extended at the West End but it would have to be curved.
    - Subject: Re: The PA-5 is comming for path!!!
    - Message Number: 759295
    - Posted by: John
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:50 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: The PA-5 is comming for path!!! posted by David Pirmann on November 08, 1997 at 22:29:04: And gap fillers are definately a must for that curve!!
      - Subject: Re: The PA-5 is comming for path!!!
      - Message Number: 759296
      - Posted by: Matt
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: The PA-5 is comming for path!!! posted by John on November 09, 1997 at 12:17:49: The logical thing to do at Exchange Place would be to leave the last car off the platform (unless it blocks an interlocking). A special cut-out device would have to be added to the cars, though. Does anyone have any more information on the cars or is this a PA secret?
        
        Subject: Re: The PA-5 is comming for path!!!
        Message Number: 759297
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: The PA-5 is comming for path!!! posted by David Pirmann on November 08, 1997 at 22:29:04: There are 2 possibilities as far as OPTO and Exchange Place are concerned. First, Path might take the lead from NYCT and not use OPTO on full length trains. They could limit it to, say, 4-car trains. Second, at Exchange Place, the operator could platform the rear 7 cars and toggle off the doors in the head car before opening them. LIRR has been doing this for ever at their shorter stations like Flatbush Ave, Woodside and Jamaica.
        
        Subject: Re: The PA-5 is comming for path!!!
        Message Number: 759301
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:55 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: The PA-5 is comming for path!!! posted by David Pirmann on November 08, 1997 at 22:29:04: There is another concern for extending Exchange Place on the West end of the station. On the Westbound (from NY) track just past the station (and you can actually see it from the end of the platform) there is an interlock for the Hoboken trains to turn off into the wye. Widening the tunnels which are cast iron would be expensive since the cast iron is brittle. I my opinion, I think they will have to use Steve's cut out suggestion, or not use OPTO on this line except when running less than 8 cars. According to the book Gotham Turnstiles, there used to be an exit to the Surface level Pennsuylvania Railroad Station (This predated NYC Penn). This entrace is now closed and is a communciations room. Regarding the PA 1 - PA 3 the person I talked to suggested scrapping all exit the PA-4 cars, and the PA-4 cars would be rebuilt. While anything is possible, I think the PA-1 to PA-3 are worse than the redbirds( Sorry, redbird fans!) l look at the roof lines and you'll see all the bondo and patching. K Cars? I wish PATH would set aside a spare track at Journal Square as a PATH Branch of the Transit Musuem. They could park a K, PA-1, etc there. Maybe they could use the track to the right of Track 1. I'd gladly pay (or get in with NY Transit musuem card) to a PATH Museum. How 'bout it PATH people? can we have a PATH Musuem?
        
        Subject: Re: The PA-5 is comming for path!!!
        Message Number: 759304
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: The PA-5 is comming for path!!! posted by Matt on November 09, 1997 at 12:36:02: The westbound trains at Exchange Place already block the interlocking when platformed so I doubt that's much of a concern :-)

Thread title: Restoration of passenger rail service on the Susqehanna rail line by NJ (759231)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:58 1997, by .

Subject: Restoration of passenger rail service on the Susqehanna rail line by NJ
Message Number: 759231
Posted by: .
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:58 1997

Thread title: AQlternatives for the West Shore rail line proposed by NJ Transit. (759232)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:42:59 1997, by Mike

Subject: AQlternatives for the West Shore rail line proposed by NJ Transit.
Message Number: 759232
Posted by: Mike
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:59 1997

I would like to know what are the remaining alternatives that are being looked at for rail passenger service along the West Shore line.

Thread title: Adding new bus service on Staten Island's South Shore in Staten Island & to (759233)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:43:00 1997, by .

Subject: Adding new bus service on Staten Island's South Shore in Staten Island & to
Message Number: 759233
Posted by: .
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:00 1997

Thread title: also Q69 Hunters PT ferry (759234)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:43:00 1997, by steve

Subject: also Q69 Hunters PT ferry
Message Number: 759234
Posted by: steve
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:00 1997

In Reply to: [6]X11 and Q113LTD Destination Sign Readings posted by chris on November 06, 1997 at 17:51:56:

Thread title: Re: Stations(Bloomies) (759236)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:43:03 1997, by Anthony Pardi

Subject: Re: Stations(Bloomies)
Message Number: 759236
Posted by: Anthony Pardi
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:03 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Stations posted by Al on November 06, 1997 at 13:56:10: Since the renovation of the Lexington ave 59th st station the entrance to Bloomingdales has since been relocated alittle over 75 to one hundred feet north of its original location on the uptown number 6 platform. does anyone remember the entrance into Alexanders at the south end of the uptwon #6 plat?
- Subject: Re: Stations(Bloomies)
- Message Number: 759271
- Posted by: Al
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:31 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Stations(Bloomies) posted by Anthony Pardi on November 06, 1997 at 22:37:14: I have to look closely next time for the Bloomie's entrance. I remember the Alexander's entrance at the south end of the platform. What remains of that entrance, I think is now hidden by a newsstand.

Thread title: Can anyone clear up an Urban Ledgeand?? (759245)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:43:10 1997, by Philip Nasadowski

Subject: Can anyone clear up an Urban Ledgeand??
Message Number: 759245
Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:10 1997

Ok... there's this UL going around by me that basically goes like this: When the President stays in NYC, he almost always stays at the same hotel (I think the Waldorff Astoria, or Plaza). The reason why, as ledgend has it, is because there is an entrance to the subway through the basement, that can be used in case of an "emergency" Variations include that the hotel has a subway station in the basement, or that it is close to an abandoned station and there is a passageway from the hotel. I think the Waldorff is above Metro North's GCT trackage, could this be how this story got started??? Also, didn't Belmont have his own private car and siding on the IRT when it was built?? I remember hearing about this (the car was Mineola, I think) Does anyone have any info on this and what happened to the car and siding???
- Subject: Re: Can anyone clear up an Urban Ledgeand??
- Message Number: 759250
- Posted by: Fernando Perez
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:14 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Can anyone clear up an Urban Ledgeand?? posted by Philip Nasadowski on November 06, 1997 at 23:49:46: I remember reading about this in a recent New York Times article when the President was staying here. The article mentioned that there is a gigantic frieght elevator that goes down to the Metro North tracks, a siding, and that it was actually used by a former President, I forget which one exactly.(Maybe Wilson). Even though this method of transport is not used anymore, the elevator is still there, and secret service agents are posted there as a security measure, because the elevator still runs! A very fascinating piece or trivia that needs more looking into.
  - Subject: Re: Can anyone clear up an Urban Ledgeand??
  - Message Number: 759252
  - Posted by: subman23
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:16 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Can anyone clear up an Urban Ledgeand?? posted by Philip Nasadowski on November 06, 1997 at 23:49:46: Yes, Belmont did have his own private car. This car would enter the subway system (from the L.I.R.R.) at Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn. If you walk to the northend of the N/B local (currently used by the 2 & 3 trains) platform you can see remnants of a spur that led into the IRT from the LIRR. I remember discussing this "subway trivia" with Thomas Prendergast, soon after he was appointed LIRR President.
    - Subject: Re: Can anyone clear up an Urban Ledgeand??
    - Message Number: 759253
    - Posted by: Peter Rosa
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:17 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Can anyone clear up an Urban Ledgeand?? posted by Philip Nasadowski on November 06, 1997 at 23:49:46: There is a railroad siding under the Waldorf-Astoria, connecting to an entrance to the hotel. President Roosevelt used this siding to get to his estate at Hyde Park during World War II. I have heard that the siding is still visible from trains leaving Grand Central Terminal on the lowest numbered tracks, but I've never been able to spot it. As far as I know, the siding and entrance have been disused for many years. It's highly unlikely that they would have any bearing today on the President's decision to stay at the Waldorf.
      - Subject: Re: Can anyone clear up an Urban Ledgeand??
      - Message Number: 759255
      - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Can anyone clear up an Urban Ledgeand?? posted by subman23 on November 07, 1997 at 09:56:46: >> Yes, Belmont did have his own private car. This car would enter the >> subway system (from the L.I.R.R.) at Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn. This is another legend in itself. While there is evidence of a connection at Atlantic Ave, I thought that it was never actually built. Was it really there at one time?? --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Can anyone clear up an Urban Ledgeand??
        Message Number: 759258
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Can anyone clear up an Urban Ledgeand?? posted by Mark S Feinman on November 07, 1997 at 12:02:07: There must have been some connection between the original IRT and the regular rail network for delivery of rolling stock, as well as other supplies in those largely pre-truck days.
        
        Subject: Re: Can anyone clear up an Urban Ledgeand??
        Message Number: 759276
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:35 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Can anyone clear up an Urban Ledgeand?? posted by Fernando Perez on November 07, 1997 at 03:58:22: Wouldn't it be great if the Transit Museum ran a tour for THAT! That would be incredible, especially if they had a rail car wait at the siding (even a simple flatcar would do). They could combine it with a tour of all the unused places of GCT.
        
        Subject: Re: Can anyone clear up an Urban Ledgeand??
        Message Number: 759405
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Can anyone clear up an Urban Ledgeand?? posted by Philip Nasadowski on November 06, 1997 at 23:49:46: The Waldorf-Astoria platform connection was used by presidents other than Roosevelt, during the era when the railroads were "THE way to travel. Eisenhower may have been the last one do do so, as he was also the first to have a presidential plane, even if it was a 300mph Constellation. I distinctly remember the newspaper coverage of him using the platform, as that was the first time I heard of its existance. I don't know the definiteive answer on the Mineola, but have never seen a photo of it on IRT property. I'm not sure it met IRT clearances, and dispite rumors, every reputable source I have read states that the track connecting IRT and LIRR was never put down, although the tunnel is there. Augie Belmont had plenty of properties to visit without soiling his silks on IRT property.

Thread title: 9098 & 9097 - Do they have new owners? (759248)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:43:13 1997, by Jeffrey from Brooklyn

Subject: 9098 & 9097 - Do they have new owners?
Message Number: 759248
Posted by: Jeffrey from Brooklyn
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:13 1997

Cars 9098 & 9097 were spotted on the #2 Line without any MTA/NYCTA logos. I think that this is a vast improvement over the new MTA logo. Possible start of a new look? By the way, thanks to everyone who responded to my mystery tunnel question. However, I am informed that a tunnel to Staten Island was to be bored as an extension of the 4th Ave. subway in Brooklyn, and not between Whitehall St. and Court St. Mystery tunnel still remains a mystery!
- Subject: Re: 9098 & 9097 - Do they have new owners?
- Message Number: 759251
- Posted by: Subman23
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:15 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]9098 & 9097 - Do they have new owners? posted by Jeffrey from Brooklyn on November 07, 1997 at 00:53:46: From what I understand, a proposal was submitted prior to the building of the Verrazano Narrow Bridge, to extend 4 Avenue (currently "R" line) service into Staten Island. Train service would run over this new bridge and connect with (or transfers would be available to) SIRTOA service. Rumor has it that Robert Moses (who was in favor of highway development) played a large role in nixing this proposal. I think this proposal would have been great for mass transit.. If anybody has any additional information on this topic please follow up.
  - Subject: Re: 9098 & 9097 - Do they have new owners?
  - Message Number: 759254
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:17 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]9098 & 9097 - Do they have new owners? posted by Jeffrey from Brooklyn on November 07, 1997 at 00:53:46: Actually, many of the redbirds have no MTA or the older M logos on them. Either they're in a transition between removal of the old one and application of the new one, or for some reason, they're not getting any logo at all applied. I've seen this on all the IRT lines that run redbirds. --Mark
    - Subject: Re: 9098 & 9097 - Do they have new owners?
    - Message Number: 759259
    - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:21 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]9098 & 9097 - Do they have new owners? posted by Jeffrey from Brooklyn on November 07, 1997 at 00:53:46: I think these two cars are not (original) mates. If I'm correct #9097's mate should be #9096 and #9098's mate #9099. I guess when you saw them they were with their proper mates but the motor ends of #9098 & #9097 were facing each other.
      - Subject: Re: 9098 & 9097 - Do they have new owners?
      - Message Number: 759294
      - Posted by: John
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:49 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]9098 & 9097 - Do they have new owners? posted by Jeffrey from Brooklyn on November 07, 1997 at 00:53:46: Why would you think the TA didn't own these cars? Who do you have in mind that might be owning these cars? . . . .

Thread title: Who's Got the Mineola (Re: Can anyone clear up an Urban Ledgeand??) (759256)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:43:19 1997, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Who's Got the Mineola (Re: Can anyone clear up an Urban Ledgeand??)
Message Number: 759256
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:19 1997

In Reply to: [6]Can anyone clear up an Urban Ledgeand?? posted by Philip Nasadowski on November 06, 1997 at 23:49:46: Last I remember, Branford Trolley Museum had the Mineola. Most of the stained glass is still intact but the car itself needs A LOT of work to get it running. Not sure you'll see it running anytime soon, though. --Mark

Thread title: Re: Stations (Boston version) (759261)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:43:23 1997, by Gerry O'Regan

Subject: Re: Stations (Boston version)
Message Number: 759261
Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:23 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Stations posted by Al on November 06, 1997 at 14:02:41: The lobby of Downtown Crossing Station (nee Washington) in Boston sits between the basements of the two big department stores, Macy's (nee Jordan Marsh) and Filenes. Both have direct access to this lobby (which now is an unpaid area and there is also a direct exit from the southbound Red Line to the sub Basement of Macy's. Another feature is display windows onto the Orange Line platform from Filenes. Before the lobby was converted to an unpaid area, Jordans had its own turnstyles and even a collector at busy periods. Filenes always opened into the fare collection area. Gerry

Thread title: Surplus Might Be just Better Bookkeeping?? (759262)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:43:24 1997, by Lou from Brooklyn

Subject: Surplus Might Be just Better Bookkeeping??
Message Number: 759262
Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:24 1997

Okay I am going to go out on a turnstile spoke here and say the maybe one of the reasons the TA has a surplus in money is the collection of DATA as to how many people ride the system. I have seen Railroad Clerks leave their booth with a nice pail to empty the turnstiles of tokens and writing down on their clipboard the counter numbers and return to their booth. I assume the pail is dumped somewhere and the tokens counted, if and when they are compared to the turnstile counter?? Now that we have the METROCARD is there any data coming electronicly into the TA computers? Would this eliminate someone writing down a wrong counter number or miscounting tokens? Another reason for the surplus could be there are a 80,000 people out there with max $80 metrocards.....
- Subject: Re: Surplus Might Be just Better Bookkeeping??
- Message Number: 759292
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:48 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Surplus Might Be just Better Bookkeeping?? posted by Lou from Brooklyn on November 07, 1997 at 15:35:47: I think that explaining a $167 million surplus on being able to count your revenues more accurately is somewhat simplistic. The surplus is, in actuality, not in the till yet. Things like "Projected Savings" and "Projected Ridership" are probably in the mix somewhere. I think that the actual numbers will be somewhat less.

Thread title: NYC Sybway and moivie "Ghostbusters 2" (759263)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:43:24 1997, by Ashley Moses

Subject: NYC Sybway and moivie "Ghostbusters 2"
Message Number: 759263
Posted by: Ashley Moses
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:24 1997

Has anyone here seen that movie "Ghostbusters 2" Well if you have you will notice that a subway station is featured. Its called Vanhorne Puenmatic Tranisit System. Is there such thing as this station in New York? If anyone knows please contact me on my email!
- Subject: Re: NYC Sybway and moivie "Ghostbusters 2"
- Message Number: 759265
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:26 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]NYC Sybway and moivie "Ghostbusters 2" posted by Ashley Moses on November 07, 1997 at 17:19:14: The name of the system in the movie refers to a bit of history known as the Beach Pneumatic Transit which DID exist in New York. It was an air-driven system in which the car was blown down a short tunnel and then "sucked" back by reversing the flow of the fans. It had one station, under Warren St. & Broadway, and operated from 1870 to 1873 as a demonstration and curiosity. The tunnel was about 300 ft. long. I didn't realize they had a name for the tunnel showed in the movie ("Vanhorne"). It doesn't mean anything to me in terms of NYC Transit history. However, the "station" pictured in Ghostbusters 2 (the "river of slime" scene) is clearly modeled on City Hall Station of the New York City subway. It too has been abandoned and unseen by most for going on 55 years now. It still exists and the NY Transit Museum frequently hosts tours. You can see pictures of it at our [7]City Hall Station - http://www.nycsubway.org/disused/cityhall.html page. The thing you see in the movie is a set. I'll have to watch this again and see how close they get it. -Dave
  - Subject: Re: NYC Sybway and moivie "Ghostbusters 2"
  - Message Number: 759267
  - Posted by: Zack
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:28 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]NYC Sybway and moivie "Ghostbusters 2" posted by Ashley Moses on November 07, 1997 at 17:19:14: yes it did exist "beaches penumatic subway" whe building one of the subway lines they broke into its tunel and ufourtaily the car was demolished? i dont know if the tunel/stateion exists still but it would be intersteing to find out.
    - Subject: Re: NYC Sybway and moivie "Ghostbusters 2"
    - Message Number: 759443
    - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:49 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Sybway and moivie "Ghostbusters 2" posted by David Pirmann on November 07, 1997 at 18:59:52: Isn't VanHorne the name of the earlier "Standard" rapid transit coupler? Having said that, I can't bring myself to propose that the movie set builders knew or cared !
      - Subject: Re: NYC Sybway and moivie "Ghostbusters 2"
      - Message Number: 759446
      - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: NYC Sybway and moivie "Ghostbusters 2" posted by Gary Jacobi on November 13, 1997 at 12:37:58: VanDorn couplers were used for many years on el cars. They were an improvement over the old link & pin type, but still required significant effort to make or break a train.

Thread title: CTA Says goodbye to conductors (759264)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:43:25 1997, by BJ

Subject: CTA Says goodbye to conductors
Message Number: 759264
Posted by: BJ
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:25 1997

The CTA will say goodbye to it's conductors as they leave the overnight shift on the Red and Blue Line's this saturday Nov 8 ( It is really sunday, but the shift starts saturday night). The motormen will be taking all the duties that the conductors had to do. These were the two remaining lines that had conductors on them. All other lines had conductors removed a while ago. The CTA says that this will save them a couple million dollars more each year. Will they ever be out of debt? They cut 10 bus routes and cut down service on 5 bus routes about a month ago and that was also suppost to save them millions. They are looking for so many ways to save money, but they will vote next week on letting alchol and tobacco keep being advertised on their system. They are expected to pass this and not let them advertise. They did this because lots of people showed up at a publie hearing. Lots of people complained about the removal of conductors and they still did that! Your thoughts please!
- Subject: Re: CTA Says goodbye to conductors
- Message Number: 759313
- Posted by: aaron
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:04 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]CTA Says goodbye to conductors posted by BJ on November 07, 1997 at 18:27:17: This will be a joke, especially on the Red Line, as most of the stations are middle platforms. They should reverse the tracks so the motormen can control the doors from the cab.
  - Subject: Re: CTA Says goodbye to conductors
  - Message Number: 759316
  - Posted by: Ed Sachs
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:07 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]CTA Says goodbye to conductors posted by BJ on November 07, 1997 at 18:27:17: This morning's traffic reports say that the Red and Blue lines are running about 10 min. behind schedule due to the change to OPTO (one person train operation).
    - Subject: Re: CTA Says goodbye to conductors
    - Message Number: 759329
    - Posted by: Alan Follett
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:18 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: CTA Says goodbye to conductors posted by aaron on November 10, 1997 at 09:05:25: Nothing so drastic as left-handed operation will be needed (and, anyway, what would that do for the still-numerous outside platforms?) CTA is modifying its cars with "convertible" full-width cabs, permitting the operator to close off the end when needed. Modifications include partitions, left-side drop sashes and removal of the frontmost seat to the now-unnecessary conductor's position. The latest series of cars, the 3200's, had full-width cabs as delivered. Anyone who can get hold of a copy of the Autumn 1997 First and Fastest (the quarterly of the Shore Line Interurban Historical Society) can find more details on the conversion program on page 5.

Thread title: Boston's South Station Train Information Departure Board (759268)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:43:29 1997, by Mike

Subject: Boston's South Station Train Information Departure Board
Message Number: 759268
Posted by: Mike
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:29 1997

If anyone out there has the reading terminals that are displayed at Boston's South Station Train Information Departure Board for the "T" Commuter rail, please post them on the subtalk or e-mail them to me.

Thread title: NYCT Staten Island bus service to New Jersey over both the Outerbridge & (759269)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:43:29 1997, by .

Subject: NYCT Staten Island bus service to New Jersey over both the Outerbridge &
Message Number: 759269
Posted by: .
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:29 1997
- Subject: Re: NYCT Staten Island bus service to New Jersey over both the Outerbridge &
- Message Number: 759273
- Posted by: .
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:32 1997

Thread title: Token booths (759272)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:43:32 1997, by Al

Subject: Token booths
Message Number: 759272
Posted by: Al
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:32 1997

Can anyone tell me when the modern token booths came to be. Was it around the beginning of the 80's because I still remember those small one-person token booths.
- Subject: Re: Token booths
- Message Number: 759290
- Posted by: charlie muller
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:46 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Token booths posted by Al on November 08, 1997 at 00:05:45:
  - Subject: Re: Token booths
  - Message Number: 759291
  - Posted by: charlie muller
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:47 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Token booths posted by Al on November 08, 1997 at 00:05:45: i remember the new token booths started about the mid 1970's. they started building them while i was in my last year of high school 1974-75. by the time all the stations where done with the new token booths in would make it by the early 1980's as far as i can remember. charlie muller.
    - Subject: Re: Token booths
    - Message Number: 759293
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:49 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Token booths posted by Al on November 08, 1997 at 00:05:45: I think that the 'New' style token booth emerged in the early 70s. I'm sure that part of the reason for the urgent replacement of all of the old booths was the arson fire in Broad Channel in the early 70s which took the life of 2 collection agents.
      - Subject: Re: Token booths
      - Message Number: 759309
      - Posted by: Al
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:01 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Token booths posted by charlie muller on November 09, 1997 at 06:08:43: Thanx for the info. The completion of the 'new style' token booths throughout the system may explain why I remeber sedeing them for the first time around the start of the 80's. Just wasn't to sure when if it was at that time.
        
        Subject: Re: Token booths
        Message Number: 759312
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Token booths posted by Al on November 08, 1997 at 00:05:45: The early-mid 70s is correct. I remember when the Roosevelt Island Tramway was being built (it went into operation in May 1976, after many delays) they used the new-style token booths
        
        Subject: Re: Token booths
        Message Number: 759325
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Token booths posted by Steve on November 09, 1997 at 12:05:40: The Broad Channel fire occurred in the early to middle 1980s, and involved a bulletproof token booth similar to those in use today. What this fire prompted was not the construction of armored booths, but rather the installation of the Halon fire surpressant systems.
        
        Subject: Re: Token booths
        Message Number: 759332
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Token booths posted by Peter Rosa on November 10, 1997 at 14:36:21: I am sure it was earlier than that. The fire I'm thinking of was set by 3 miscreants who sought revenge against the token clerks who had pointed them out as fare beaters. At that time, I was working in the Broad Channel/Howard Beach area (not for the TA). That's why I'm sure it was in the 70s

Thread title: Re: Customer Information (759274)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:43:33 1997, by Gerry O'Regan

Subject: Re: Customer Information
Message Number: 759274
Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:33 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Customer Information posted by David L. on November 08, 1997 at 01:17:20: Both these incidents occurred during the busy hours, when NYCT has the staff on board to handle them efficiently. The real test will be when one of you encounter something that happens after 10 at night when service and staffing are at much lower levels, and delays much more disruptive. This seems to be where Sammy was getting very frustrated, and understandably so. Here in Boston, evening headways can be up to 20 minutes, so when something happens at these hours, people also get angry, and the MBTA also has more difficulty in dealing with the problem and informing the public. Gerry
- Subject: Re: Customer Information
- Message Number: 759287
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:44 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Customer Information posted by Eric on November 08, 1997 at 19:09:07: There is no such model board in operation yet. The one at Jay Street gives a pictorial representation of the system but can not and does no indicate train location. That's not to say this is not changing. The new Control Center will have such capabilities when complete. The beginning will be the AATC (advanced automatic train control) system being installed on the 'L' line. This system was originally developed for the military to enable the leaders to identify the exact location of US tanks on battlefields. The new system will be able to identify a train and its' location to within 10 feet on straight track and 15-20 feet on curved track. With this system, such a model board will then be possible.
  - Subject: Re: Customer Information
  - Message Number: 759412
  - Posted by: Lou from Middletown
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:25 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Customer Information posted by Steve on November 08, 1997 at 20:45:18: JUst wanted to add that the other night on "Trains Unlimited",they showed the AMTRAK control center with its satellite positioning and all that, so it can't be too far out of the question for that sort of thing for the subway!
    - Subject: Customer Information
    - Message Number: 759975
    - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
    - Date: Sun Nov 30 11:01:27 1997
      - Subject: Re: Customer Information
      - Message Number: 759976
      - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
      - Date: Sun Nov 30 11:01:30 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Customer Information
        Message Number: 759979
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:01:36 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Customer Information
        Message Number: 759984
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:01:46 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Customer Information
        Message Number: 760012
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:02:45 1997

Thread title: Re: Stations- West 4th (759282)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:43:40 1997, by David Pirmann

Subject: Re: Stations- West 4th
Message Number: 759282
Posted by: David Pirmann
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:40 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Stations posted by Andrew Huie on November 08, 1997 at 04:45:04: Speaking of odd entrances to stations, I once heard that the West 4th Street station once had entrances from the street down to the mezzanine between the two track levels, such that someone entering from the street would go down to the mezzanine, then if they wanted the 8th Ave. trains they'd go back UP a level, or down to 6th Ave. Can anyone confirm that? -Dave
- Subject: Re: Stations- West 4th
- Message Number: 759284
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:41 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Stations- West 4th posted by David Pirmann on November 08, 1997 at 12:52:08: I can't confirm it but I can tell you that at the north end of the mezzanine, there is a door, beyond which lies a long corridor which is now the headquearter of the Infrastructure Dept. The passageway extends for several blocks and could likely have accommodated the entrance you are referring to.
  - Subject: Re: Stations- West 4th
  - Message Number: 759546
  - Posted by: Daniel
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:17 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Stations- West 4th posted by Hank Eisenstein on November 15, 1997 at 12:21:34: Very true... The reason for this is because of the location of Washington Square (I think)... The south entrance/exit is for West 3rd, and the north entrance/exit (only from Uptown A,C,E platform) is at West 8th...
    - Subject: Re: Stations- West 4th
    - Message Number: 759559
    - Posted by: subway-buff
    - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:28 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Stations- West 4th posted by Daniel on November 18, 1997 at 21:10:22: This station has another interesting feature. The Mezzanine (crossover) is between the 6av and 8 av tracks and it is a full width mezzanine
      - Subject: Re: Stations- West 4th
      - Message Number: 759602
      - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
      - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Stations- West 4th posted by Steve on November 08, 1997 at 19:14:07: The odd thing about the W4st station is that there is actually no entrance/exit that is marked W4 st. You can exit at w3, and you can exit at the north end of the station, but there is no stairway that actually puts you on w4. -Hank

Thread title: Re: Platform Access (was: Stations) (759286)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:43:43 1997, by Gerry O'Regan

Subject: Re: Platform Access (was: Stations)
Message Number: 759286
Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:43 1997

In Reply to: [6]Stations posted by Al on November 05, 1997 at 15:44:06: While on the subject of stations, can someone comment on what percentage of local stations on NYCT lack common entrances (ie: separate access to opposite platforms with no transfer passageway)? I know this is common on the original IRT main line. Here in Boston there are few stations in this category: Kendall and Central on the Red Line Chinatown (Essex) on the Orange Line Copley, Boylston (transfer passageway removed ca: 1980) and Symphony (prepayment inbound, pay fare on car outbound) on the Green Line (Science Park has a common entrance but is pay fare on car in both directions - Prudential is like this at times) Also at Ashmont(Red), Lechmere(Green), and Wonderland(Blue) terminals outbound platforms are unpaid areas (this was also the way at Forest Hills and Everett on the old Orange Line els). Gerry
- Subject: Re: Platform Access (was: Stations)
- Message Number: 759525
- Posted by: John Stewart
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:59 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Platform Access (was: Stations) posted by subway-buff on November 17, 1997 at 19:31:08: Just for the sake of history, the original station plan for 72 and B'way on the 1/2/3/9 allowed for unrestricted transfer for all paid customers. This was the plan that was still in effect during the 70s. Also, isn't there a downtown IRT 1/9 station (perhaps Rector?) that has no south-bound entrance?
  - Subject: Re: Platform Access (was: Stations)
  - Message Number: 759526
  - Posted by: Bob Sklar
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:00 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Platform Access (was: Stations) posted by Gerry O'Regan on November 08, 1997 at 19:30:16: Here's everything I know on the subject of stations in which opposite direction platforms are not accessible to each other: (Most of this now appears on Hagstrom's newest subway map, although not always correctly) (1)(9) 238 St, 231 St, 225 St, 215 St, 207 St, 157 St, 145 St, 137 St, 110 St, 86 St, 79 St, 72 St, 50 St, 28 St, 23 St, 18 St, Christopher St, Houston St, Canal St, Franklin St, Rector St. The two platforms at South Ferry are also not connected. Thus in the days when Lexington Av. service ran to South Ferry, it was possible to transfer from a through-train (5) or (6) to a (1), but NOT from the Bowling Green shuttle. No subway map I have ever seen showed this fact. (2) 174 St, Freeman St, Simpson St, Prospect Av, Jackson Av, Hoyt St, Bergen St, Winthrop St, Church Av, Beverly Rd, Newkirk Av (3) 145 St, 135 St, 125 St, 116 St (6) Longwood Av, 149 St, 143 St, Cypress Av, Brook Av, 116 St, 110 St (I think), 86 St, 77 St, 33 St, 28 St, Astor Pl, Bleecker St (a true SHAME!), Spring St, (7) 46 St, 40 St, 33 St, Vernon-Jackson (A) Dyckman St, 135 St, 116 St, 50 St, Lafayette Av, Clinton-Washington, Franklin Av (unless you take a ticket, walk upstairs to the (S), take another ticket, and walk back downstairs! It may also be that you can use the original ticket to walk across Fulton St and downstairs), Nostrand Av (there is a passage in which a sign states transfer availability, but it is usually closed), Kingston-Throop Avs, Ralph Av, Rockaway Av (F) 75 Av, 23 St (Manhattan), Bergen St (G) Grand Av, Elmhurst Av, Northern Blvd, 46 St, 36 St, Fulton St (J)(Z) Marcy Av (L) Halsey St (I think), Morgan Av (I think), Montrose Av, Grand St, Graham Av, 1 Av, 3 Av (R) 49 St, 28 St, 23 St, 8 St, Prince St, Cortlandt St, Rector St, Union St, 25 St, 36 St I have extremely vague but persistent recollections of a complete connection (although NOT a free transfer) between Junius St (3) and Livonia Av (L) without going to street level around 1962. Any info? Bob Sklar
    - Subject: Re: Platform Access (was: Stations)
    - Message Number: 759527
    - Posted by: Bob Sklar
    - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:01 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Platform Access (was: Stations) posted by Bob Sklar on November 18, 1997 at 15:17:50: Oops! I forgot! Also 23 St on the (6). Bob
      - Subject: Re: Platform Access (was: Stations)
      - Message Number: 759528
      - Posted by: Bob Sklar
      - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:02 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Platform Access (was: Stations) posted by John Stewart on November 18, 1997 at 13:51:04: Yes, it's Rector St, although I think they have recently installed a newer model "iron maiden" at the north end. There is no token booth, however. Also, except during PM rush hours (possibly also AM - not sure), the southbound entrance at Franklin St serves only as an exit. Bob Sklar
        
        Subject: Re: Platform Access (was: Stations)
        Message Number: 759534
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Platform Access (was: Stations) posted by Bob Sklar on November 18, 1997 at 15:17:50: The post-war stations on the "A", East of Broadway-ENY, are also unconnected: Liberty, Van Sicklen and Shepherd Avenues.
        
        Subject: Re: Platform Access (was: Stations)
        Message Number: 759554
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Platform Access (was: Stations) posted by Bob Sklar on November 18, 1997 at 15:17:50: Actually, at least a couple of the #6's Manhattan stops used to have crossovers, but they were removed, probably because of unsafe (meaning crime) conditions. Astor Place was one (the location of the stairway is marked by a small grate near the token booth area), 23rd Street (the blocked off stairways might still be visible). I think 28th and 33rd streets also may have lost their underpasses.
        
        Subject: Re: Platform Access (was: Stations)
        Message Number: 759603
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Platform Access (was: Stations) posted by Gerry O'Regan on November 08, 1997 at 19:30:16: The BMT 4th Ave line is like this past 59st. This can work both for and against the TA. For, where they only have to install 2 elevators to make the station accessable, because the booths are at platform level. Bad, because they can't close one booth without preventing entrance to the station, and not providing transfer for passengers who may have missed their stop. -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: Platform Access (was: Stations)
        Message Number: 759660
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:50 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Platform Access (was: Stations) posted by Hank Eisenstein on November 15, 1997 at 12:24:54: I can add some more: Marcy on the J/Z. Rector Street 1/9, and some stations in the 200s on the 1/9. 86 street and Lex on the 4/5/6 has no crossover and separate booths for uptown and downtown. 72 and B'way on the 1/2/3/9 has no crossover once you enter the system. I am sure there are others. Suggestion to Steve: Ask NYCT to indicate such stops on their map. Perhaps highlight in yellow liek they used to do for Metrocard stations.

Thread title: Re: The G & M Lines (759298)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:43:52 1997, by Mark Greenwald

Subject: Re: The G & M Lines
Message Number: 759298
Posted by: Mark Greenwald
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:52 1997

Just a thought---as many of you know, there has been a lot of talk about the reduction in G service, here's a thought. Is it feasable to build a connection between the G and the J,M Lines?--Possibly between Broadway (G) and the Lorimer St. or Hewes St. (J.M) stations. This would give pasengers more options on getting to G stations without having to rely solely on the G itself--what, with the cutbacks and all. On a different note, has any thought ever been given to possibly extending the M up to the Queens Blvd. Lines? This would, in essence, create a second Bklyn/ Queens route. That, along w/ a connection between the G and the J,M would take some of the stress off the G, especially with the cutbacks..........anyhow, it was just a thought.
- Subject: Re: The G & M Lines
- Message Number: 759317
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:08 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: The G & M Lines posted by Mark Greenwald on November 09, 1997 at 13:12:56: Extending the M line to Queens Boulevard might not be a bad idea, but I foresee two major obstacles: (1) a large cemetery blocks any extension to the north of Metropolitan Avenue, and (2) the limitations of the 53rd Street tunnel would make it difficult to increase service on Queens Boulevard (the opening of the connection to the 63rd Street tunnel probably wouldn't help enough to make a real difference).
  - Subject: Re: The G & M Lines
  - Message Number: 759320
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:10 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: The G & M Lines posted by Peter Rosa on November 10, 1997 at 11:30:14: Then, what if the M terminated at Roosevelt Ave - Jackson Heights - there's already a terminal stop built at that station that wes never used. --Mark
    - Subject: Re: The G & M Lines
    - Message Number: 759334
    - Posted by: Sammy
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:22 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: The G & M Lines posted by Mark Greenwald on November 09, 1997 at 13:12:56: Great ideas everyone. However: (1) You used to be able to transfer with a chit ala the Franklin St. Shuttle/A train. That was done away with a long time ago. As far as I know, it can't be done with Metrocard, the same way you cannot transfer from 21st/Van Alst to Hunters Point or Vernon Jackson (7 line) (2) Connecting the M to the G would probably not increase traffic on either line significantly, nor would it increase economics across such a corridor. Why would M line riders transfer to the G? For G riders, it is just as easy to take the L at Lorimer St. or the A at Hoyt for service downtown. (3) The growth of Greenpoint and Williamsburgh should make this possible: build a new station past Greenpoint Avenue at the Newtown Creek (Ash St), then have it come across the creek (like it does now), building a new station at Vernon-Jackson to connect with the 7. Then eliminate the underused 21/Van Alst station. It would eliminate a lot of log jams at Queens Plaza and give G riders an extra option. At the same time, there couyld be ferry service from the new Ash St. Station to Manhattan, creating more revenue possibilities. (4) extend the M, as one person says, to 74th/Roosevelt where the extension was never used. The problem with the G line is the dependency on other lines to get into Manhattan. Unless more is done, it is sure to choke off any economic gains made along the line in the last 10 years. That's what happened when many of the Brooklyn els were shut down.
      - Subject: Re: The G & M Lines
      - Message Number: 759415
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: The G & M Lines posted by Mark Greenwald on November 09, 1997 at 13:12:56: I have never understood the GG line. It was left dangling for years at Nassau st.(Greenpoint) in the 30's. I often thought that they had second thoughts about it at that time, but having comitted the funds to shield-tunnel under Newtown Creek nobody dared drop it. Consider also that original IND plans were designed to duplicate and out-do the BMT. There is no doubt that the Bedford-Nostrand center track was supposed to continue up Lafayette to steal business from the Myrtle Ave. What it would have done around Broadway is not clear, but now that Myrtle is gone, how much would it take to re-hook a line at the upper level at Broadway. And then there is always the unknown need for six tracks in the never completed station at Union st. in Williamsburg. Perhaps two of these were to hook to the GG in some fashion? (Yes,I know they want us to say "G" now, but it was GG for 40+ years, and I am an old dog incapable of learning new tricks, especially STUPID ones!)
        
        Subject: Re: The G & M Lines
        Message Number: 759544
        Posted by: Daniel
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: The G & M Lines posted by Andrew Huie on November 16, 1997 at 00:50:50: Well, the M can support extra riders, but let me ask this question: Can the Williamsburg Bridge support the extra service?
        
        Subject: Re: The G & M Lines
        Message Number: 759628
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: The G & M Lines posted by Sammy on November 11, 1997 at 05:30:06: G riders could change at Lorimer St for the L, but the L only goes along 14th St. After that people have to change for another train. With the connection to the M, people would have a more direct route to lower Manhattan. It's less roundabout than going to downtown Brooklyn, then across to lower Manhattan. The question is: can the M train support the extra riders, or is it already at capacity? As for connecting to the 7, it helps, but isn't the 7 already packed by then with riders from Flushing?
        
        Subject: Re: The G & M Lines
        Message Number: 759629
        Posted by: Mark Greenwald
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: The G & M Lines posted by Mark Greenwald on November 09, 1997 at 13:12:56: Here's another thought on the subject----would this idea work---Build a physical connection from southbound G to westbound J,M,Z so that there would be a direct route downtown---Call it the "Y" and let it follow the route of the J,Z to Broad Street.
        
        Subject: Re: The G & M Lines
        Message Number: 759992
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:02:03 1997
        
        Subject: Re: The G & M Lines
        Message Number: 759993
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:02:05 1997

Thread title: walnut depot (759299)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:43:53 1997, by trolleybus

Subject: walnut depot
Message Number: 759299
Posted by: trolleybus
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:53 1997

atu pres hanley advised staten island bus drivers this depot will close eminently. it was sold to the ny post or ny state. can anyone confirm this.
- Subject: walnut depot
- Message Number: 759300
- Posted by: trolleybus
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:54 1997
  
  atu pres hanley advised staten island bus drivers this depot will close eminently. it was sold to the ny post or ny state. can anyone confirm this.
  - Subject: Re: walnut depot
  - Message Number: 759302
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:56 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]walnut depot posted by trolleybus on November 09, 1997 at 13:20:34: I know very little about the Surface Dept. but why would Staten Island drivers be concerned about the Walnut Depot? The last I heard, Walnut was in the south Bronx.
    - Subject: Re: walnut depot
    - Message Number: 759305
    - Posted by: Fernando Perez
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:43:58 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]walnut depot posted by trolleybus on November 09, 1997 at 13:20:34: The new Coliseum is being built to replace Walnut, but as far as when it will be completed is another question. Right now I dont even think a foundation has even been laid yet. I haven't heard anything about a sale either.
      - Subject: Re: walnut depot
      - Message Number: 759308
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: walnut depot posted by Fernando Perez on November 09, 1997 at 16:39:43: As of last week, the ground had just been cleared, only!
        
        Subject: Re: walnut depot
        Message Number: 759323
        Posted by: trolleybus
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: walnut depot posted by Steve on November 09, 1997 at 14:55:53: evidently you do not work for nyc transit. by closing walnut they will activate greyhound which we had been using as a storage facility for our si express buses during the day so its all related.
        
        Subject: Re: walnut depot
        Message Number: 759326
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: walnut depot posted by trolleybus on November 10, 1997 at 13:04:22: Evidently you don't read as carefully as one might expect. I do in fact work for the Department of Subways and prefaced my remarks by saying that I do not know much about surface.

Thread title: Free Subway Stuff for the Taking! (759307)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:44:00 1997, by Andrew Byler

Subject: Free Subway Stuff for the Taking!
Message Number: 759307
Posted by: Andrew Byler
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:00 1997

To all, I have some free subway stuff for the taking to whoever expresses interest in it first. Among the documents - copies of news clippings on the Astor Place flood, a 1995 Subway calendar (nice pictures), IRT Pump car operating instructions, IRT car assignments from the 50's and 60's, etc. Got a lot of this from Hank Raudenbusch of the ETA and LTK Engineering Services. First to ask for it gets the lot. I'd appreciate $3 for the Priority Mail postage, cause I'm just a poor graduate student, but if you're poor too, no problem (we'll work on the honor system here). Write to byler@ce.udel.edu to ask for them. Andy Byler
- Subject: Re: Free Subway Stuff for the Taking!
- Message Number: 759336
- Posted by: Andrew Byler
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:24 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Free Subway Stuff for the Taking! posted by Andrew Byler on November 09, 1997 at 19:47:03: To all, The free stuff is gone! Andy Byler

Thread title: M22 Depot Assignment (759310)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:44:02 1997, by chris

Subject: M22 Depot Assignment
Message Number: 759310
Posted by: chris
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:02 1997

Is this route assigned to the HUdson or to the 126 st as previously placed
- Subject: Re: M22 Depot Assignment
- Message Number: 759315
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:06 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]M22 Depot Assignment posted by chris on November 10, 1997 at 01:33:45: Originally it was at NYCTA/126 Street - It's now assigned to MABSTOA/Hudson

Thread title: Re: Staten island service from Bklyn (759314)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:44:05 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Re: Staten island service from Bklyn
Message Number: 759314
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:05 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: 9098 & 9097 - Do they have new owners? posted by Subman23 on November 07, 1997 at 09:49:30: Look off the south end of the s/b plat at 59-4Av. You'll see a ramp which existed for the purpose of at some point chunneling through to Staten island.

Thread title: Re: CTA Questions and comments (759318)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:44:08 1997, by Dave

Subject: Re: CTA Questions and comments
Message Number: 759318
Posted by: Dave
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:08 1997

Spent the weekend in Chicago and rode the El/subway for a few enjoyable hours. I did have a few questions about the Red and Purple lines, however. 1. Just north of South Blvd. on the Evanston line there is a siding with 3rd rail that diverges just north of the station and descends to ground level. There were autos parked on the track so I assume it's dead and the 3rd rail is not hot. What is/was this siding used for? 2. Somewhere around Morse or Loyala (I don't remember which) there was extensive new trackage just south of the station It was off to the side and only ran a few hundred feet before rejoining the main line. The wood support decking around the trackage suggests a new station is being constructed. Is this the case? 3. Around the Belmont stop (I think...I didn't have a pen to write with and take notes) a single track diverges westward before the station and goes to a single platform adjacent to a building. This line and station are below the regular station and they looked abandoned. What was this station used for and when was it abandoned? 4. Heading north from the Loop it looks like only the inner 2 tracks are being used and the outer two abandoned. Trees overgrow the outer tracks and some of it is being pulled up. Why? Wouldn't it be cheaper to leave it in place? At least that way, if traffic picked up at some point in the future these tracks could be renergized. It's not like the CTA is pulling down the El...or is that planned? 5. Unlike the NYC system, most of the route signs on the Red line lead cars were incorrect. For example, most of the cars heading south still displayed "Howard" and many of the cars heading north read "Dan Ryan." Very confusing. Aren't the motormen supposed to change these? The new ticket card system seems to be pretty much in place throughout the Loop and the Red line. I was in Chicago in July and none of the stops I used had them installed. Personally, I think it stinks. The machine took my $20 even though I only wanted $3 worth of "tokens" and didn't give change. No where on the machine did I see a sign that said "this machine doesn't give change." If it was there, it's pretty well hidden! OPTO goes into effect today on the Red line. The Purple line already uses OPTO. Train crews I talked to weren't happy but both a motorman and a conductor said the CTA has been hit with a lot of retirements and changing to OPTO is a lot cheaper than hiring and training new crew. The cars that don't have full-width cabs have a "Do Not Cross" cloth ribbon installed just behind the cab so no one sits on the front seat, which allows the motorman to open the left-side window and look down the station platforms to see if anyone is boarding. I was told all cars will be retrofitted with full-width cabs.
- Subject: Re: CTA Questions and comments
- Message Number: 759319
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:09 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: CTA Questions and comments posted by Dave on November 10, 1997 at 11:44:45: > 4. Heading north from the Loop it looks like only the inner 2 tracks are > being used and the outer two abandoned. Trees overgrow the outer tracks > and some of it is being pulled up. Why? Wouldn't it be cheaper to leave > it in place? At least that way, if traffic picked up at some point in the > future these tracks could be renergized. It's not like the CTA is pulling > down the El...or is that planned? It's been abandoned for a long time already, I think since the 50s and dates back to the 4 track Northwestern Elevated RR. Some areas of this EL were rebuilt and only have a 2 track steel structure and I think a proposed stationw as supposed to go in that area but was never built because of NIMBYism. > 5. Unlike the NYC system, most of the route signs on the Red line lead > cars were incorrect. For example, most of the cars heading south still > displayed "Howard" and many of the cars heading north read "Dan Ryan." > Very confusing. Aren't the motormen supposed to change these? Yes they are. It's probably because of the loop at Howard. The train doesn't just change ends - it loops around at Howard and starts off in the other direction. > ... The machine took my $20 even though I only wanted $3 worth of > "tokens" and didn't give change. No where on the machine did I > see a sign that said "this machine doesn't give change." If it was there, > it's pretty well hidden! You've just discovered an innovative way that the CTA hopes to make money! :) > OPTO goes into effect today on the Red line. The Purple line already uses > OPTO. Train crews I talked to weren't happy but both a motorman and a > conductor said the CTA has been hit with a lot of retirements and > changing to OPTO is a lot cheaper than hiring and training new crew. The > cars that don't have full-width cabs have a "Do Not Cross" cloth ribbon > installed just behind the cab so no one sits on the front seat, which > allows the motorman to open the left-side window and look down the > station platforms to see if anyone is boarding. I was told all cars will > be retrofitted with full-width cabs. Oh no! The famed Railfan seat on the CTA is an endangered species. Has the Blue line been converted yet? When I was out there in June, all the lines except for the subway (Red and Blue) were OPTO. --Mark
  - Subject: Re: CTA Questions and comments
  - Message Number: 759327
  - Posted by: Alan Follett
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:17 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: CTA Questions and comments posted by Dave on November 10, 1997 at 11:44:45: Concerning the third question, I think what Dave is describing is at Wilson Ave., not Belmont. The Wilson station originally had three tracks. Just north of the station, a single-track line providing a freight connection to the Milwaukee Road at Lower Buena Yard diverged, passing the Wilson station on the west, and at a lower level than the passenger tracks, eventually reaching ground level south of Montrose. This connection was abandoned when CTA got out of the freight business (mid-1970's?). In the early 1950's, CTA rebuilt Wilson to provide a fourth passenger track through the station area using the Lower Buena lead. A short connection was built from the freight line back to the southbound outer passenger tracks south of Wilson station, and a platform was constructed next to the original Wilson station facing on the east side of the freight line. This was, as I recall, connected to the Wilson station house by a sort of ramp passing under the original passenger tracks. The "new" platform is no longer routinely used, and I'm not sure it's still serviceable, or even in place. In the 1950's and early 1960's it served southbound North Shore trains--just for arriving passengers, of course; the North Shore carried no local passengers in CTA territory. I believe that in the 1950's Evanston Shopper's Special trains, which stopped at Wilson, also used this platform. In more recent times Evanston Express trains bypassed Wilson using this line; very likely they still do, but I would defer to someone with more recent knowledge of CTA operations.
    - Subject: Re: CTA Questions and comments
    - Message Number: 759331
    - Posted by: Joe M
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:20 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: CTA Questions and comments posted by Alan Follett on November 10, 1997 at 18:42:52: I have seen a track next to the Red line on the north end that sill has trolley wire. It baout three of four stops south of Howard. Where does it go? Is the wire hot?
      - Subject: Re: CTA Questions and comments
      - Message Number: 759338
      - Posted by: Alan Follett
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: CTA Questions and comments posted by Joe M on November 10, 1997 at 22:56:56: I'd be surprised to learn that it actually still has wire, but you can still see catenary posts along the outer southbound track between Howard and Lawrence. This was last used for CTA's freight motors; the last freight customer on the line, Lill Coal, quit using rail something on the order of twenty years ago. Earlier, North Shore (and possibly Evanston Express?) trains used the wire as well.
        
        Subject: Re: CTA Questions and comments
        Message Number: 759340
        Posted by: Alan Follett
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: CTA Questions and comments posted by Dave on November 10, 1997 at 11:44:45: Concerning Dave's item 1--the trackage near South Boulevard is the remnants of a team track, apparently last used in 1964-5 (per First and Fastest Autumn/Winter 1988, p.50)
        
        Subject: Re: CTA Questions and comments
        Message Number: 759385
        Posted by: Dave
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:02 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: CTA Questions and comments posted by Alan Follett on November 11, 1997 at 14:09:58: A team track, you say. VERY interesting! Where did the freight motors deliver to?
        
        Subject: Re: CTA Questions and comments
        Message Number: 759389
        Posted by: aaron
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: CTA Questions and comments posted by Alan Follett on November 11, 1997 at 14:04:37: I don't believe the North Shore or the Evanston Express trains used this wire. The Evanston trains pulled down their trolley poles at South Blvd. and the North Shore trains took the third rail at Crawford Avenue.
        
        Subject: Re: CTA Questions and comments
        Message Number: 759390
        Posted by: aaron
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: CTA Questions and comments posted by Dave on November 10, 1997 at 11:44:45: In response to #1: I recall seeing work trains stored there about three years ago. South Blvd used to be where the Evanston trains switched from third rail to overhead trolley wire. This was converted to third rail in the mid '70s
        
        Subject: Re: CTA Questions and comments
        Message Number: 759398
        Posted by: Alan Follett
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:12 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: CTA Questions and comments posted by aaron on November 12, 1997 at 11:13:30:
        
        Subject: Re: CTA Questions and comments
        Message Number: 759399
        Posted by: Alan Follett
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:13 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: CTA Questions and comments posted by aaron on November 12, 1997 at 11:13:30: I don't have my reference material at hand, but I'm pretty sure there's a photo in Middleton's _North Shore, America's Fastest Interurban_ of a southbound North Shore train coming around the curve at Loyola with poles up. If so, this must have meant that they switched from trolley to third rail at Crawford or South Blvd., then back to trolley at Howard, and then back again to third rail somewhere around Wilson. If true, it does seem a bit strange. Can anyone confirm?--I'd hate to think I've reached the point of traction-related hallucinations! (If no confirmation comes in during the day, I'll unbury the book tonight and see if my memory is to be trusted.)
        
        Subject: Re: CTA Questions and comments
        Message Number: 759417
        Posted by: Alan Follett
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: CTA Questions and comments posted by Alan Follett on November 12, 1997 at 12:40:30: Well, I'm not crazy; or at least my recollections of North Shore under wire on the "L" can't be cited in evidence. The photo I remembered from Middleton is indeed there, on page 118. More detail comes from George W. Campbell's _North Shore Line Memories_, p. 233: "Southbound trains ran on trolley south of Howard to Granville Avenue...where the power source became third rail, although the overhead continued south to Montrose Avenue." The question of why southbound North Shore trains didn't remain on third rail all the way from Crawford or South Blvd. to the Loop remains, I think, unanswered.
        
        Subject: Re: CTA Questions and comments
        Message Number: 759420
        Posted by: Alan Follett
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: CTA Questions and comments posted by Dave on November 12, 1997 at 10:02:41: A team track is a site for receipt or delivery of goods for customers not having their own sidings; in the case of the South Blvd. team track, the last specific shipment I can find mentioned was a boxcar of Texaco motor oil shipped from Beaumont, TX to a gas station in Evanston in 1958 (First and Fastest, Spring 1988, p.24). This was still described as the CMStP&P team track, though it would have been switched by CTA. Later correspondence in F&F mentions boxcars on the team track as late as 1964 or 1965, but the nature of the traffic is not specified. The Howard St/Evanston line had a number of customers with sidings. The last and largest was Lill Coal north of Berwyn Ave. in Chicago, but there were also a warehouse at Wilson Av., Consumers Co. just south of Howard, and Mears Slayton Lumber, Traders Building Material, and North Shore Stone just north of Howard. There was also a small freight yard, probably including another team track, at Church St. in Evanston, reportedly in use as late as 1960, and a coal yard at Noyes on the north side of Evanston. This list may not be complete; I'm going by maps in CERA B-115.
        
        Subject: Re: CTA Questions and comments
        Message Number: 759489
        Posted by: Ed Sachs
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: CTA Questions and comments posted by Alan Follett on November 12, 1997 at 20:53:43: I seem to recall the reason was that the southbound express track from Howard to Wilson (the westernmost, outside track) was also used by freight trains, and did not have third rail because some of the freight cars might have overhanging parts which would short it out.
        
        Subject: Re: CTA Questions and comments
        Message Number: 759490
        Posted by: Alan Follett
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: CTA Questions and comments posted by Ed Sachs on November 14, 1997 at 13:30:18:
        
        Subject: Re: CTA Questions and comments
        Message Number: 759492
        Posted by: Alan Follett
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:26 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: CTA Questions and comments posted by Ed Sachs on November 14, 1997 at 13:30:18: It may be true that in the era of freight operations the outside track didn't have third between Howard and Granville due to freight car clearance concerns. The freight and outer passenger tracks overlapped in a gauntlet arrangement between Granville and Wilson, the freight rails were slightly to the outside. There was definitely a third rail for the passenger cars in this territory--in fact, as mentioned in a previous post, North Shore cars lowered their poles on the fly and switched back to third rail at about Granville.

Thread title: SIRR station stops (759321)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:44:12 1997, by Paul

Subject: SIRR station stops
Message Number: 759321
Posted by: Paul
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:12 1997

As I recall someone on this site, I think Hank said that the Tomkinsville, Richmond Valley, Atlantic stations will sooon be condemned. They do seem old and neglected. Are they going to repair Tomkinsville or knock it down? Also, just past Tomkinsville, they are building a bridge, to what and where? How far are Atlantic station from Richmond Valley? I ask because they seem pretty close to each other. Why do the SIRR neglect some of it's stations so badly. Tomkinsville, Richmond Valley, Atlantic seem like they are falling apart.
- Subject: SIRR station stops
- Message Number: 759322
- Posted by: Paul
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:13 1997
  
  As I recall someone on this site, I think Hank said that the Tomkinsville, Richmond Valley, Atlantic stations will sooon be condemned. They do seem old and neglected. Are they going to repair Tomkinsville or knock it down? Also, just past Tomkinsville, they are building a bridge, to what and where? How far are Atlantic station from Richmond Valley? I ask because they seem pretty close to each other. Why do the SIRR neglect some of it's stations so badly. Tomkinsville, Richmond Valley, Atlantic seem like they are falling apart.
  - Subject: Re: SIRR station stops
  - Message Number: 759378
  - Posted by: SI Rider
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:57 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]SIRR station stops posted by Paul on November 10, 1997 at 12:44:44: Atlantic and Nassau might be closed and replaced with one new station at Arthur Kill Road called 'Arthur Kill'. Tompkinsville has not been mentioned as destined for closure. The Atlantic and Nassau stations are rarely used by commuters.
    - Subject: Re: SIRR station stops
    - Message Number: 759460
    - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:02 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]SIRR station stops posted by Paul on November 10, 1997 at 12:44:44: I said that Tompkinsville SHOULD be condemned. Richmond Valley is in bad shape, but not TO bad. Atlantic and Nassau are supposed to be replaced with a single station, to be called Arthur Kill. The atlantic station is only about 65' long (or so) and is a flagstop in both directions (notify the conductor you want to get off. You can see the atlantic station from the end of the platform at Tottenville. -Hank
      - Subject: Re: SIRR station stops
      - Message Number: 759461
      - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:02 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]SIRR station stops posted by Paul on November 10, 1997 at 12:44:44: The bridge being built at Tompkinsville is the pedestrian station access bridge. The previous bridge was condemned. It was scheduled to be a 10 month job, and so far has taken over 20 months. -Hank

Thread title: Re: walnut depot/Re:Trolleybus posting (759324)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:44:14 1997, by Wayne Johnson

Subject: Re: walnut depot/Re:Trolleybus posting
Message Number: 759324
Posted by: Wayne Johnson
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:14 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: walnut depot posted by trolleybus on November 10, 1997 at 13:04:22: Please explain what Walnut Depot of the Bronx division has to do with SI express buses. I'd undestand if you said that SI buses were laying over at Walnut during the day, but I don't think that's the case. Also Greyhound will be a Manhattan divison depot. I can't see why Walnut would close before the new Colisuem opens, unless a mass bus movement is about to take place.
- Subject: Re: walnut depot/Re:Trolleybus posting
- Message Number: 759339
- Posted by: trolleybus
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:26 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: walnut depot/Re:Trolleybus posting posted by Wayne Johnson on November 10, 1997 at 14:35:34: there will be areassignment. greyhound has been used by the si division since sept 1995 to lay buses over during the day. we were abruptly kicked out on 10/31/97 and told the depot must be made ready to be an active depot since walnut will close.
  - Subject: Re: walnut depot/Re:Trolleybus posting
  - Message Number: 759386
  - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:03 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: walnut depot/Re:Trolleybus posting posted by trolleybus on November 11, 1997 at 14:06:42: I'm aware of the SI buses laying over at Greyhound (but unaware that it had ended. Where are they (SI buses) laying over now during the day? I always wondered why they didn't use the old MABSTOA 54th Street depot. Is it possible that some SI buses cold be using Hudson depot during the day. I have seen SI buses at Hudson and my guess is they are taken there when they have mechanical problems in Manhattan.
    - Subject: Re: walnut depot/Re:Trolleybus posting
    - Message Number: 759397
    - Posted by: trolleybus
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:12 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: walnut depot/Re:Trolleybus posting posted by Wayne Johnson on November 12, 1997 at 10:59:07: si express buses are now returning to their respective depots(Yukon and Castleton and Brooklyn buses to ulmer park.)the buses you see by hudson are breakdowns. the NYCTA has had to increase our pay accordingly.

Thread title: Graffiti Checks (759328)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:44:18 1997, by Bryan L

Subject: Graffiti Checks
Message Number: 759328
Posted by: Bryan L
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:18 1997

Does the TA still do routine graffiti "bombing" checks or even "raids" at some times? What i mean is do they check for fresh graffiti on the trains before they are put into service from the yard?
- Subject: Re: Graffiti Checks
- Message Number: 759330
- Posted by: Adam
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:19 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Graffiti Checks posted by Bryan L on November 10, 1997 at 19:53:52: I think that the policy the TA has is that no train is allowed into service that has graffiti on it. While we're on the subject of grafitti, I am nostalgic for the trains in the 80's that were covered by graffiti. I actually liked how they looked, and I have been looking for pictures of subway cars with grafitti on them but I have not been able to find many good ones. Does anyone know a good place to find them? Thanks in advance for letting me know. Also, I have another question: When was graffiti finally eradicated in the subway? And also when did subway cars begin to be covered in graffiti?
  - Subject: Re: Graffiti Checks
  - Message Number: 759348
  - Posted by: PhatKat
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:33 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Graffiti Checks posted by Adam on November 10, 1997 at 22:56:06: Although we may be a minority, I too enjoyed seeing graffiti art on trains. There is a website called artcrimes (www.artcrimes.com) that features 'tags' by graffiti artists on nyc subway trains. Some people who do enjoy looking at different 'typefaces' or fonts, will agree that block tag lettering is a true artform. Peace.
    - Subject: Re: Graffiti Checks
    - Message Number: 759353
    - Posted by: PhatKat
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:37 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Graffiti Checks posted by PhatKat on November 11, 1997 at 16:07:40: The correct URL for Art Crimes is http://artcrimes.gatech.edu/index.html
      - Subject: Re: Graffiti Checks
      - Message Number: 759375
      - Posted by: Adam
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Graffiti Checks posted by PhatKat on November 11, 1997 at 16:41:54: Thanks for the info!
        
        Subject: Re: Graffiti Checks
        Message Number: 759432
        Posted by: fotios
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Graffiti Checks posted by Adam on November 10, 1997 at 22:56:06: hey, Adam. You are sick, how can you like or even be nostalgic for subway graffiti. Sherman
        
        Subject: Re: Graffiti Checks
        Message Number: 759469
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Graffiti Checks posted by fotios on November 13, 1997 at 11:16:46: Hey Sherman, you illiterate bastard I think that you are the one who is sick. Get the hell off of this board if you have nothing intelligent to contribute and nothing better than to add but to say that I am sick. I would love to hear your INTELLIGENT and RATIONAL reasons for disliking graffiti, if you are capable of producing such reasons, and then maybe I would listen to you. I have my reasons for being nostalgic for graffiti, some of them having nothing to do with it being a legitimate art form. To begin, I think that graffiti, not all of it, but the kind that was on the subway cars, can look attractive to the discerning eye. Most of the graffiti on subway cars was in a mural style, providing something to look at and enjoy when riding the otherwise grimy and unattractive subway of the 1980s. Secondly, graffiti-covered subway cars reminds me of the 1980s, a decade of which I have fond memories. I used to ride the subways almost every day in the early 80s, particularly in 1982 and seeing the pictures of graffiti-covered subway cars brings back a lot of these memories. So that is my reason for liking graffiti on subway cars. I know most people did not like it and I respect that, as long as they can represent their dislike in an intelligent manner, something that I do not think that SHERMAN is capable of.
        
        Subject: Re: Graffiti Checks
        Message Number: 759481
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Graffiti Checks posted by Adam on November 13, 1997 at 19:22:45: How about inventing Virtual Graffiti Glasses so those who enjoy seeing it do not have to insult those who don't?
        
        Subject: Re: Graffiti Checks
        Message Number: 759535
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Graffiti Checks posted by Adam on November 17, 1997 at 00:18:42: Blood stains are very colorful; do you espouse leaving them in place too?
        
        Subject: Re: Graffiti Checks
        Message Number: 759550
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Graffiti Checks posted by Gary Jacobi on November 18, 1997 at 17:02:41: I don't think that anyone would know they were bloodstains in the first place.
        
        Subject: Re: Graffiti Checks
        Message Number: 759558
        Posted by: -berto
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Graffiti Checks posted by Adam on November 17, 1997 at 00:18:42: This topic reminds me of my El riding back in my high school (1991-95) days in Chicago. Although I never tagged, I knew plenty of taggers back then. The times were different too. Underground culture is a reflection of the mainstream. When the mainstream is shaky, that is when the the underground flourishes. The early 1990's was a source of great anxiety for many, and some of this anxiety is reflected in the graffiti art that sprung up. As the mainstream culture became more stable, people who were into the underground scene returned (or grew up) into the mainstream. Since about 1995, graffiti writing has dropped along the Northside Els, mainly due to increased policing, increased gentrification (yuppies won't put up with taggers, even though their kids may be...knew a few), but also in my opinion, increased opportunities and maturity for those involved in tagging. Unless economic anxieties pile up or pop culture decides to reglamorize tagging as it was in the 1980's, graffiti has entered a down cycle. Whether one is pro or anti-graffiti, I think both sides must admit that to some extent, graffiti is an element of urban transit culture. It is also a reflection of not only the hopelessness of some, but also a source of pride for others. There were many colorful murals I observed riding on CTA Els. I do believe that taggers should face the consequences of their actions, but at the same time it is a reflection of the world that the artists lived in. One thing I did notice was that the old PCC 6000 Els which operated until 1994 on the Ravenswood (Brown) line remained relatively graffiti free despite operating on route that serves 5 major city high schools, while modern 3200 series cars were marked up the instant they entered service. One of my friends put it this way. If something has been in service for that long and is that old, you have got to give it respect. Which is true. Many Chicagoans have parents and grandparents who rode PCC. I rode PCCs as a child and saw them retired as a high schooler. As a college student, I rewarded myself with a memory...I bought myself a destination roller complete with CTA route signs from the city. Literally it is a piece of history, mine, my parents, and millions of other riders who rode or saw the 6000's in service or in movies. my 2.5 cents worth, roberto
        
        Subject: Re: Graffiti Checks
        Message Number: 759577
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Graffiti Checks posted by Adam on November 18, 1997 at 22:01:06: Good point.
        
        Subject: Re: Graffiti Checks
        Message Number: 759632
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:28 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Graffiti Checks posted by Adam on November 13, 1997 at 19:22:45: There is nothing attractive anout graffiti - period. Graffiti is a criminal act - period. There is something wrong with the your basic premise that it is somehow ok or attractive to deface someone else's property, be it a building wall, a fence, a store security gate or a subway car. I was a college student in the early 70s and remember riding in graffiti covered cars and feeling the sense of dispair and hopelessness it conveyed. There was nothing attractive about it then and it's less attractive now. Graffiti has become even more destructive where 100s of thousands of dollars of glass are destroyed each year on the subway system. Now the miscreants are etching the stainless steel car skins. I must tell you that 3 weeks ago, I observed a young man who, on his way to school, was 'tagging' a window on one of my trains. I took him off the train and had him arrested. I have no compassion for the artist nor do I have any appreciation for the 'art'. Perhaps if you were a taxpayer or if your property were being vandalized, you'd see graffiti for what it really is, a crime...... Since YOU are difinitely in the minority, I suggest that you re-evaluate your anti-social tendencies and redirect your energies in a more meaningful way. By the way, the TA declared victory over graffiti in May of 1989
        
        Subject: Re: Graffiti Checks
        Message Number: 759637
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:32 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Graffiti Checks posted by Steve on November 16, 1997 at 02:17:06: I would like to clear one thing up - I do not condone the writing of graffiti nor do I engage in the art of graffiti. I am only an observer looking in from the outside. I think that the glass etching is deplorable and I do not enjoy seeing that. What I am trying to say about graffiti is that plain and simple there were no strategies to control it in the late 70s/early 80s. So it was there whether you liked it or not. So why not make the best out of it and look at what looks nice about it, and there was a lot that was nice about it in the mural style that was painted on most of the trains. I'm not even saying let's bring back the graffiti. Let's stop bickering over this and say that graffiti defined an era in the history of the New York City subway system, regardless of whether this era was good or bad. Now you have two choices - appreciate it for what it was or spend your life feeling "a sense of dispair and hopelessness" as Steve feels. I'll choose the former. As I mentioned before, the graffiti reminds me of good times back then when I used to ride the subways every day in the early 80s, it made the subways a lot more colorful, you must admit, and it was the essence of NYC back then. So let's appreciate graffiti for what it is and not let this get blown out of proportion. For those of you who appreciate graffiti I highly recommend Art Crimes, a web page that is described in some postings below.

Thread title: T sign (759333)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:44:22 1997, by David L.

Subject: T sign
Message Number: 759333
Posted by: David L.
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:22 1997

In certain station, there is a sign that has a "T" surrounded by a red circle. What does this sign mean?
- Subject: Re: T sign
- Message Number: 759335
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:23 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]T sign posted by David L. on November 10, 1997 at 23:59:32: See [8]http://www.nycsubway.org/signals/, a complete guide to signalling and trackside signage. That will probably have the answer to your question.
  - Subject: Re: T sign
  - Message Number: 759337
  - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:25 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]T sign posted by David L. on November 10, 1997 at 23:59:32: It means that at that station there is a transfer for the Boston "T". Really!!! Honest!!! :) Actually, it means there is a system telephone on the platform.

Thread title: Crime in the Subways (759341)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:44:28 1997, by Subway Watchdog

Subject: Crime in the Subways
Message Number: 759341
Posted by: Subway Watchdog
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:28 1997

I was wondering what everybody thinks about crime in the subways these days. I know the statistics say that it's down dramatically, but I think what is more important than statistics is how people subjectively feel when they are riding the subways. I actually feel a lot safer, but I am still apprehensive whenever I am in the subway. Has anybody recently experienced or witnessed a crime that has occured in the subways? If you would like to share what has happened, I think that it would be informative for everybody reading this board. Thanks!
- Subject: Re: Crime in the Subways
- Message Number: 759343
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:29 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Crime in the Subways posted by Subway Watchdog on November 11, 1997 at 15:06:13: Well, since you asked.. My subway riding patterns are somewhat erratic. I ride during rush hour, weekends at any time of the day, late weekday evenings, and the occasional very late ride back from Queens or someplace (post-midnight). I've *never* seen a violent crime (mugging, attacks, etc) on the subway. (Panhandling, yes. Littering, yes. Mugging, no.) Obviously they exist because you hear about them on the news, but since the news would be boring if nothing bad happened, I think the reputation is no longer deserved. Of course, I'm not out at Kingston-Throop or New Lots at 2am flashing a gold watch around. If you are, your experience might be completely different. -Dave
  - Subject: Re: Crime in the Subways
  - Message Number: 759351
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:36 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Crime in the Subways posted by David Pirmann on November 11, 1997 at 15:25:12: Interesting that you mentioned how a person's perception of crime might be different in a bad area (Kingston-Throop, New Lots) at 2 am. I've heard that subway crime rates are highest not late at night, as might be expected, but rather on weekday afternoons when the high schools get out. Going back to the original posting, in over three years of regular subway riding (mostly rush hours), I haven't seen any serious incidents.
    - Subject: Re: Crime in the Subways
    - Message Number: 759382
    - Posted by: Justin Huntsman
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:00 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Crime in the Subways posted by Peter Rosa on November 11, 1997 at 16:32:27: I'm going to be in NYC mid December. I am considering late night subway trips to battery park (I want to take the Staten Island ferry) and City Hall (I want to walk across the Brooklyn bridge). Does anyone see a problem with late night subway travel to these places (I'm staying in times square)?
      - Subject: Re: Crime in the Subways
      - Message Number: 759383
      - Posted by: Peter Rosa
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Crime in the Subways posted by Justin Huntsman on November 12, 1997 at 09:20:16: I don't see any particular risks with the subway trips you mentioned. Subway crime rates are low enough that they shouldn't be a worry. In addition, traveling within Manhattan, especially below 96th Street or thereabouts, will avoid the areas where crime rates might be the highest.
        
        Subject: Re: Crime in the Subways
        Message Number: 759387
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Crime in the Subways posted by Justin Huntsman on November 12, 1997 at 09:20:16: If you're the unsure type-- i.e. don't look confident when travelling in new areas -- then you will be at higher risk. I'm not sure I'd want to walk the Bk. Br late at night under any circumstances...
        
        Subject: Re: Crime in the Subways
        Message Number: 759400
        Posted by: Justin Huntsman
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Crime in the Subways posted by David Pirmann on November 12, 1997 at 11:07:26: Thanks for the reply's. What about walking the Bk. Br in the evening time; say before 10:00pm? I'm not really the unsure type and I try to look confident all the time :) All kidding aside I understand what your saying. An unconfident person wantering around looking confused is going to be a higher risk. I really want to walk the bridge, but the earliest I can get there is ~8:00pm. Is this too late? Justin
        
        Subject: Re: Crime in the Subways
        Message Number: 759407
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Crime in the Subways posted by Peter Rosa on November 12, 1997 at 09:38:43: If nothing too unpleasant presents itself at night getting to a Times Square subway station, the other two stops should be a piece of cake! I would suggest crossing the bridge in the Brooklyn to Manhattan direction, as the City Hall area has more and busier stations, and finding the well lit bridge in Brooklyn is far easier than hunting for Clark st or High st. in the dark.
        
        Subject: Re: Crime in the Subways
        Message Number: 759416
        Posted by: Justin Huntsman
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:28 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Crime in the Subways posted by Gary Jacobi on November 12, 1997 at 16:01:22: Gary Jacobi wrote: I would suggest crossing the bridge in the Brooklyn to >Manhattan direction, as the City Hall area has more and busier stations, >and finding the well lit bridge in Brooklyn is far easier than hunting for >Clark st or High st. in the dark. This confuses me a little. If I'm reading this correctly, I should take the subway to the "High St/Brk bridge" stop -in Brooklyn. Then walk over to Manhattan? I was under the impression it would be safer to get off at the "City Hall/Brk bridge" stop in Manhattan. I want to walk east (to Brooklyn) and then come back to the City Hall stop in Manhattan for my return trip. Shoul I avoid the Manhattan bridge stop or the Brooklyn bridge stop? Justin
        
        Subject: Re: Crime in the Subways
        Message Number: 759418
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Crime in the Subways posted by Justin Huntsman on November 12, 1997 at 20:04:08: Walking the bridge in the Brooklyn-to-Manhattan direction is a better choice because you'll be facing in the more scenic direction. Lower Manhattan at night is quite a sight, whereas views of Brooklyn are okay but unspectacular. In addition, as the prior posting stated, the stations on the Brooklyn end of the bridge can be a bit hard to find after dark. On the Manhattan side the subway station (Brooklyn Bridge - City Hall) is right there when you get off the bridge walkway.
        
        Subject: Re: Crime in the Subways
        Message Number: 759435
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Crime in the Subways posted by Justin Huntsman on November 12, 1997 at 20:04:08: Sorry to have confused you; I didn't occur to me that you were intending to cross AND return. If you still intend to do this, by all means start and end at City Hall. My main concern was not only finding the Brooklyn Stations in the dark, but also waiting at a rather deserted platform, which the Brooklyn ends of the Tunnels tend to be. As for the Staten Island Ferry, Battery park is well lit. Check with others on this site as to whether or not they will let you stay aboard at the St. George terminal. They didn't used to, but I understand they no longer collect a fare, so they might not clear the boat. Also check on what the schedules shrink down to later at night.
        
        Subject: Re: Crime in the Subways
        Message Number: 759499
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:32 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Crime in the Subways posted by Subway Watchdog on November 11, 1997 at 15:06:13: Crime is definitely down in the subways. However, it is once again up from its recent low points. Since the merger of the NYPD and Transit Police Depts. there has been a decided decrease in police presence on trains and stations. The result of this has been an increase in fare beating, smoking and other quality of life offenses. It has been demonstrated that the same peple guilty of Q of L offenses, are usually the ones who commit more serious crimes. This trend has not escaped the police brass or city hall. Shortly before the election, the mayor and police commissioner acknowledged this increase in crime and announced an increase in police, subway patrols. As for the every day life in the subways, there have been some visible signs of negative changes. I ride numerous times daily, early morning, mid-day, afternoon, evening and nighttime. I have witnessed numerous Q of L crimes recently including pan-handling and smoking. Recently, a female customer was assaulted with a bottle for asking a homeless person to move. If nothing else, the mayor and police commissioner must, once again, increase police presence on the subways to restore customer confidence and a sense of security to all

Thread title: Subway Entrances (759342)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:44:28 1997, by Subway Watchdog

Subject: Subway Entrances
Message Number: 759342
Posted by: Subway Watchdog
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:28 1997

Does anyone know of secret entrances through which you can enter the subway? I mean entrances that may lead into tunnels or abandoned parts of the system. I would be really glad if you could share this information with the rest of us. Thanks!
- Subject: Re: Subway Entrances
- Message Number: 759352
- Posted by: David Pirmann - Web Site Host
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:37 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Subway Entrances posted by Subway Watchdog on November 11, 1997 at 15:22:52: Don't count on it. If you want to talk privately about this sort of thing fine but please don't post about it. This site is not going to condone trespassing.

Thread title: Let's take a poll! (759344)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:44:30 1997, by Subway Man

Subject: Let's take a poll!
Message Number: 759344
Posted by: Subway Man
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:30 1997

What does everybody think the letter for the next new subway line should be? I would like to see them use the letter H. I think that there might have been an H train many years ago (Does anybody know where it used to run?), but I just think that would be a good letter for a subway line, better than all the other remaining letters. For example, using the letter O would not be a good idea because it looks like a zero (0). Also, using the letter I would be bad because it looks like the number one (1). So I'm proposing an H for our next new subway line what ever that may be.....?????
- Subject: Re: Let's take a poll!
- Message Number: 759345
- Posted by: John
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:31 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Let's take a poll! posted by Subway Man on November 11, 1997 at 15:29:52: The H train technically still exists, although it shows up as a shuttle on the map. The H train (Rockaway Shuttle) operates in Queens, between Broad Channel and Rockaway Park. It used to extend from Euclid Avenue, to Far Rockaway, and then across to Rockaway Park, but was cut back a few years ago and is pubically known as the S train (on the route signs and map, although I have never heard a New Yorker refer to a shuttle as "The S Train").
  - Subject: Re: Let's take a poll!
  - Message Number: 759346
  - Posted by: Todd Glickman
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:32 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Let's take a poll! posted by Subway Man on November 11, 1997 at 15:29:52: The HH ran from Euclid Avenue to Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park from the 60's into the 70's. Now, it is merely the S/Shuttle on subway maps and other public documentation. However, the TA still uses the "H" designation internally for that route (such as on their car assignment lists, etc.) so I doubt they would use it for any other new line. As we said a few weeks ago during the impending AMTRAK strike, anyone want to take a P (train)?
    - Subject: Re: Let's take a poll!
    - Message Number: 759354
    - Posted by: Peter Rosa
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:38 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Let's take a poll! posted by Subway Man on November 11, 1997 at 15:29:52: Not long ago I heard about a proposal to change the name of the rush-hour 6 express to the 8. Apparently, the use of the 6 designation was causing quite a bit of confusion. There is of course a precedent for this renaming, with the 9 and the Z. I don't know if this idea is still under active consideration.
      - Subject: Re: Let's take a poll!
      - Message Number: 759413
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Let's take a poll! posted by John on November 11, 1997 at 15:35:19: What's this fascination with P trains? As far as I can see, K,T,U,V,W,X and Y are available, if you eliminate I and O as being too likely to look like 1 and 0. It is possible that MTA considers P to look like R , and has thus already left it out of the seqence. This also might explain not using K as it can be confused with H.
        
        Subject: Re: Let's take a poll!
        Message Number: 759437
        Posted by: fotios
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Let's take a poll! posted by Gary Jacobi on November 12, 1997 at 19:13:05: we are running out of options.
        
        Subject: Re: Let's take a poll!
        Message Number: 759451
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:55 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Let's take a poll! posted by John on November 11, 1997 at 15:35:19: Seen as "recently" as August 24th, R-32s on the Rockaway Park - Euclid Ave shuttle with side designations of "H" instead of "S". The H is dead - long live the H!! --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Let's take a poll!
        Message Number: 759462
        Posted by: Todd Glickman
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Let's take a poll! posted by Mark S Feinman on November 13, 1997 at 13:36:56: Now if you see a train of R-1/9s, signed "HH", I'll really be impressed. The train of my "yout" (as grandpa would have said).
        
        Subject: Re: Let's take a poll!
        Message Number: 759468
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Let's take a poll! posted by Gary Jacobi on November 12, 1997 at 19:13:05: I think, like the H train, there used to be a K train. I think it might have run in Brooklyn somewhere. Does anyone know if it actually existed or not?
        
        Subject: Re: Let's take a poll!
        Message Number: 759473
        Posted by: John
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Let's take a poll! posted by Adam on November 13, 1997 at 19:09:21: The original K ran from Jamaica, along the current J/Z line in Queens and Brooklyn, across the Williamsburg Bridge, along the 6th Avenue line to 57th Street. This service was discontinued in the late 1960s, I beleive. In 1985, another K train was formed to replace the AA, which was an off-hour service that ran between the Chambers Street terminus, along the 8th Avenue line to 168th Street. The C train replaced the K in 1989 or '90.
        
        Subject: Re: Let's take a poll!
        Message Number: 759482
        Posted by: Lou from Middletown
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Let's take a poll! posted by Subway Man on November 11, 1997 at 15:29:52: T might also be a good option- there once was a TT acting as the pre-Chrystie St West End Local.Also T is not easily confused with other letters, i.e. P with R,etc. Personally I still think the idea of the original IND was the best-single letters for expresses (A), double letters indicating the local on that route (AA) it makes tons of sense eliminates a lot of confusion, so of course the TA-MTA got rid of it!! Also for rush hour express lines the adding of "X" wouldn't be bad either (i.e. NX).
        
        Subject: Re: Let's take a poll!
        Message Number: 759524
        Posted by: Tim Speer
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Let's take a poll! posted by Gary Jacobi on November 12, 1997 at 19:13:05: I'm a big fan of "K." I used to take the old K at Essex Street, and then later, I took the K on 8th avenue as the renamed AA. Why not bring it back again for some other totally unrelated line?
        
        Subject: Re: Let's take a poll!
        Message Number: 759585
        Posted by: Eric B
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:49 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Let's take a poll! posted by Mike on November 15, 1997 at 11:42:02: "KK" first appeared on the original R-27/30 signs in 1960. It was to be the old #14 Bway-Bklyn shortline to Canal. In 1967, when the Eastern Div. lines were officially lettered, for some reason, these trains were designated "JJ". Then, in 1968, when they were routed to 6th Av, it became the "KK", and later the "K". In 1991, with the old AA replaced by expanded B and C service, the K was proposed for a Canarsie skip-stop service between Myrtle and Lorimer. Maybe now they'll consider that when the Williamsburg Bridge is closed for 5 months in the next couple of years. A grey "K" even appears on the R-110B front sign! Another use I've suggested is for evenings and weekends. The old K ran only rush hours, and was discontinued because of low ridership, but maybe it is more needed during these other times, especially since the M does not run to Manhattan, and the additional service is not needed in lower Manhattan off-hours. It could go to 168th, replacing the C, or to 21st St replacing shuttles when the Manhattan Bridge is closed.
        
        Subject: Re: Let's take a poll!
        Message Number: 759601
        Posted by: Mike
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Let's take a poll! posted by John on November 13, 1997 at 22:24:06: I believe the original K (KK) started in 1968 (right after 57th Street-6th Avenue was opened) and ran until about 1976.
        
        Subject: Re: Let's take a poll!
        Message Number: 759888
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:58:05 1997

Thread title: Franklin Avenue Shuttle (759350)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:44:35 1997, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Franklin Avenue Shuttle
Message Number: 759350
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:35 1997

There has over the years been a lot of discussion of the Franklin Avenue Shuttle and whether to close it down or not. It would seem to me that all that would be needed to replace lost Franklin Avenue Service is to have the Atlantic Avenue/Pacific St. stations (2,3,4,5,D,Q,B,M,N,R) connect through a new pedestrian tunnel, with moving walkway if necessary to the Lafayette Avenue (A,C) and Fulton St. (G) stations. Then Prospect Park, Eastern Parkway would have a direct connection to the Fulton Street and Crosstown lines. Only the Park Place people would have to walk down to Eastern Parkway. I used to take the shuttle a lot as a teenager and really liked it, but it seems to have completely worn out and be expensive to operate, plus the inconvenience of those little tickets to transfer from the elevated track to the subway track. I wonder if the NYCTA would actually read this propose this simple (I think) yet useful change. A new one-time construction cost has to be cheaper than running that poor one-track line 24/7. Any thoughts out there?
- Subject: Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle
- Message Number: 759357
- Posted by: subway-buff
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:40 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Franklin Avenue Shuttle posted by Carl M. Rabbin on November 11, 1997 at 16:24:29: The TA did try to close it overnight in 1995( I think) and the neighborhood folks griped loudly. They are planning on rebuilding the line- see the official page for details (click capital projects from the MTA home page). They are planning on building a passageway between Botanic Garden shuttle and Franklin Ave IRT (2,3,4,5). They are also planning on building a combined entrance ,ADA compliant, between shuttle and the IND platforms. (The MTA page is at www.mta.nyc.ny.us)
  - Subject: Re: Franklin Avenue Shuttle
  - Message Number: 759404
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:17 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Franklin Avenue Shuttle posted by Carl M. Rabbin on November 11, 1997 at 16:24:29: I hate to see any remnants of the "old system" go, but I have to admit that the shuttle as now operated is a very poor use of funds. The Franklin Ave transfer that I used for access to Coney Island in the 50's was very heavily used, because trains ran thru from Fulton to Coney, at least in the Summer season. My folks accepted this as "the way to go" because they grew up using the Fulton Street El, especially my Mom who attended Girl's Commercial High School which was somewhere near the Botanic Gardens station. I still remember one trip to Coney on the D train from the connection across the platform at Jay St. from the A in the early 60's, not realizing that this was newly available. I always chalked our use of the Franklin-Brighton route as force of habit, which seems to be all that is keeping it alive to this day. Lets face it, if the Myrtle could be shut down south of Broadway, there is little excuse for the Franklin Shuttle.

Thread title: Battery Runs and Express Trains (759355)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:44:39 1997, by Russ Hilder

Subject: Battery Runs and Express Trains
Message Number: 759355
Posted by: Russ Hilder
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:39 1997

Not new to those of you in the big Apple, we, the cold Canadians up here in TO, (Toronto, which was just amalgamated to make it the fourth largest city in North America) our experimenting with a new method of subway strategy, thanks to Mr. Joe Lawler, on loan from the MTA. Delayed trains are now being expressed five or more stations to regain headway time. Others our run out private to regain time from an end terminal. So far the response from the public has been subdued. They are as confused as the operating crews. Is this method commonplace in NYC and does it work? Remember the TTC has only a two track system with two major lines of some sixty miles in total. We are very cosmopolitain city now with a 20% immigrent population.
- Subject: Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains
- Message Number: 759356
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:40 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Battery Runs and Express Trains posted by Russ Hilder on November 11, 1997 at 16:51:25: It's never done in NY as far as I know. In Washington, DC it is done once in a while. The policy has never been publicized. Just every once in a great while, the motorman says, "This train will not stop at the following 2 (or 3) stations," then closes the doors. People have written to the Washington Post's Traffic and Transit guy to complain.
  - Subject: Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains
  - Message Number: 759359
  - Posted by: Todd Glickman
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:42 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Battery Runs and Express Trains posted by Russ Hilder on November 11, 1997 at 16:51:25: It happens FREQUENTLY here in Boston. In fact, just this evening on the Green Line. I got on a Lechmere car at Park Street, destined for North Station to catch my commuter train. I was standing in the front (go figure!) and heard the Government Center Inspector call our car: he told the operator to go express from Haymarket to Lechmere, skipping North Station and Science Park. The operator announced this at Haymarket, and nearly the entire car emptied -- as most at this hour go to North Station. We then waited five mintues for the next Lechmere-bound car to pick us up. This also happens frequently on the Red Line, especially northbound from Park Street towards Alewife, which things get backed up there during rush hour.
    - Subject: Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains
    - Message Number: 759361
    - Posted by: David Pirmann
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:44 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains posted by Carl M. Rabbin on November 11, 1997 at 17:24:31: No, it most definitely is done in NYC. I can't give exact figures but it seems that it happens mostly on the IRT lines in Manhattan where local stops are many and close together. It happened to me just recently on the #6 from Grand Central to 14th St. The train ran express on the local track passing by people on the local stations in between. This was during rush hour. Bonus for me, since I was heading to City Hall, but it seems like it is more trouble than it is worth. Skipping stops to make up time is probably cancelled out by the confused and panic-ing people trying to get off the one train and then onto the next train.
      - Subject: Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains
      - Message Number: 759362
      - Posted by: Bobw
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains posted by David Pirmann on November 11, 1997 at 19:05:23: It used to happen quite often on the Market-Frankford line here in Phila. Trains would go express westbound at 30th St in the AM peak to fill gaps. More often than not, even when supervisors and conductors yelled thruout the train and platform that there would be no stops to 69th St, someone would miss the announcement and thus miss his/her stop (the trains do not have PA systems). This is compounded by the inability to leave a train at 69th and reboard the next inbound train (the outbound and inbound platforms are separate and one must go thru turnstiles to reach the inbound platform). Remaining on the train is a risky option, since trains loop at 69th St, and sometimes they go to the yard rather than return for another trip...
        
        Subject: Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains
        Message Number: 759365
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:47 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains posted by David Pirmann on November 11, 1997 at 19:05:23: I totally agree with you that this type of practice does occur in NYC. Over the past summer, I was on an N train that was stuck at 42nd Street for 5 minutes because the doors didn't close. Because of the delay, and without warning, the doors finally closed and it was announced that the next stop was 14th Street/Union Square. This caused a widespread panic among the passengers and upon reaching 14th Street, there was a huge number of people running across the station to the other side, delaying the train going in the opposite direction for an equally long time as the original train because of the sheer number of people attempting to get on the train. So, no, I do not think that this strategy works at all. At least they could have the decency to tell the passengers about the skipped stops BEFORE the doors are closed and the train is moving. The best policy is not to have delays in the first place.
        
        Subject: Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains
        Message Number: 759367
        Posted by: John
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:48 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains posted by David Pirmann on November 11, 1997 at 19:05:23: Not only that, but I have also been in the exact opposite situation - an express train becoming local. A few months ago, going from Brooklyn to Manhattan on the B train, the train stopped at all the stops between 36th and Pacific, and also at DeKalb Avenue.
        
        Subject: Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains
        Message Number: 759374
        Posted by: David L.
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains posted by David Pirmann on November 11, 1997 at 19:05:23: I can say that the G train has done this quite often in the morning rush and during midday because it's behind schedule. Sometimes during the morning rush when the Brooklyn-Bound G is behind schedule...it runs express from Nassau Ave, to Metropolitan Ave, and then to Clinton-Washington. Then it resumes normal service. And during the middays when the Forest Hills-bound is behind schedule...it runs express from either Queens Plaza or Roosevelt Ave.
        
        Subject: Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains
        Message Number: 759377
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:56 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Battery Runs and Express Trains posted by Russ Hilder on November 11, 1997 at 16:51:25: Battery runs are most definitely used on the NYCT. More frequently that we'd like to think. It's not a new or unique concept. I'm quite sure that transit properties across North America & possibly around the world use this method of operation when necessary.
        
        Subject: Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains
        Message Number: 759395
        Posted by: Lou
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:10 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains posted by Carl M. Rabbin on November 11, 1997 at 17:24:31: I've been on many a battery run. Also have been on a 6th Ave express like the Q gets rerouted to the Local Track at 47/50 Rock and runs to West 4th street blowing it's horn though the two local stops (23rd and 14th St). On the Staten Island Railway a two track operation, if the train is late St. George Bound for any reason they will run Express through stops to make the Ferry Departure and announce pax can get the outbound train at St.George for the missed stops. No one says anything about the pax at the passed stations...
        
        Subject: Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains
        Message Number: 759401
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Battery Runs and Express Trains posted by Russ Hilder on November 11, 1997 at 16:51:25: Russ, tell my old colleague Joe to keep it up, as this practice is indeed widespread. Within a system that is inherently INflexible, one has to buck past practice to infuse a little operating efficiency. None of my Chicago neighbors have chimed in, but you will also occasionally see this on the CTA. Was on a Blue Line some years back (before it was the Blue Line) in the Loop and all of a sudden, without warning, the conductor said, "Next stop, River Road" As I was borderline on being late to catch a flight, boy was I thrilled!! I mean Russ, you already have the TO (train operator) on the left and use a wide gauge, so why buck the trend any further!! (Just kidding, Russ!) Sorry about the Leafs, BTW.
        
        Subject: Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains
        Message Number: 759403
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains posted by Carl M. Rabbin on November 11, 1997 at 17:24:31: Carl, I guess you were just missing these Battery runs, because they are definitely common in NYC. In fact on Lexington Avenue I've seen #6 trains get rerouted to the express tracks as well as them making express stops along the local tracks. On the other hand, I now use the Red line on WMATA daily and I've yet to see a battery run on this system.
        
        Subject: Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains
        Message Number: 759431
        Posted by: Dave
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains posted by Wayne Johnson on November 12, 1997 at 13:55:05: Why are they called Battery Runs?
        
        Subject: Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains
        Message Number: 759444
        Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:49 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains posted by Adam on November 11, 1997 at 20:36:58: The best policy is not to have delays in the first place. Great idea, any thoughts on implementation? :)
        
        Subject: Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains
        Message Number: 759458
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains posted by Carl M. Rabbin on November 11, 1997 at 17:24:31: NYCT uses these all the time, especially during track work. I was on a 1 train that was delayed by track work (15 minutes at 50st!) When the train reached 96st, it went out of service. While waiting the 2 minutes for the next train, the 1 crassed over to the Lenox Ave line, then reversed bak to the downtown local. the next 1 came in on the uptown ex, and another arrived on the uptown local. I jumped on the express, and we crossed over in front of the local. We stopped at 137, 168, and then made all stops from 207. I got off at 231. I'm a front-ender, I admit, and while watching out the front of the train, we passed only 1 southbound train. -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains
        Message Number: 759459
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:01 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains posted by Lou on November 12, 1997 at 11:52:51: Let's not forget that SIR also runs SCHEDULED express service during rush hours. -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains
        Message Number: 759467
        Posted by: Adam
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:07 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains posted by Gerry O'Regan on November 13, 1997 at 12:40:36: Hey if I knew the answer to that, I'd be the president of the MTA! :-)
        
        Subject: Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains
        Message Number: 759480
        Posted by: Ed Sachs
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:17 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains posted by Charles Fiori on November 12, 1997 at 13:26:29: Must have been a while back. River Road station was renamed Rosemont a few years back.
        
        Subject: Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains
        Message Number: 759523
        Posted by: Tim Speer
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Battery Runs and Express Trains posted by Charles Fiori on November 12, 1997 at 13:26:29: This is done in Boston, as well. I live at Forest Hills (the last stop on the Orange Line), so I'm delighted when a train goes express from Ruggles all the way to the end. Also, with the tight headways on the Orange Line during rush hour, it is disastrous when a train is significantly behind schedule.

Thread title: How about restoring N express service? (759358)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:44:41 1997, by Bobw

Subject: How about restoring N express service?
Message Number: 759358
Posted by: Bobw
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:41 1997

There have been postings on the restoration of F expresses in Brooklyn. How about restoring N expresses in Manhattan? This was always one of my favorite rides, and sadly it's suspended. I am sure many riders would be overjoyed to see this return. Comments?
- Subject: Re: How about restoring N express service?
- Message Number: 759363
- Posted by: Adam
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:45 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]How about restoring N express service? posted by Bobw on November 11, 1997 at 17:56:27: I don't support the return of the N express, unless it is local in Astoria because the N express skips some important stops on the Astoria line, including Broadway, which I would venture to say is the major stop in Astoria on the N line. If you don't believe me, stand in the station during rush hour when a train comes in from Manhattan. You'll probably be knocked down by the masses of people. Putting in express service means fewer regular N trains, meaning fewer trains stopping at Broadway and therefore the regular N trains will be much more overcrowded than they already are, which I can't even imagine happening.
  - Subject: Re: How about restoring N express service?
  - Message Number: 759369
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:50 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]How about restoring N express service? posted by Bobw on November 11, 1997 at 17:56:27: As long as the Manhattan Bridge is partially closed, N express service in Manhattan would be impractical.
    - Subject: Re: How about restoring N express service?
    - Message Number: 759391
    - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:07 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: How about restoring N express service? posted by Adam on November 11, 1997 at 20:30:03: The Express service referred to by others is from 57 St. to Canal Street. Unfortunately, this line (Broadway BMT) that goes to the most places has the fewest trains (N, R). If a third train could run on that line, then 2 locals and an express would work out great. Maybe when the 63 St. connection is finished.... BTW, I tell friends who are unfamiliar with NYC to try to use the N,R line exclusively, if they can. It goes nearly everywhere visitors want to go, and there are no branches or expresses in Manhattan. I give them a list: Bloomingdales, Plaza Hotel and FAO Schwarz, Carnegie Hall, Bway theaters, Times Sq, Macy's, Flatiron Bldg, Greenwich Village, SoHo, Chinatown, Wall Street, the ferries to Ellis Island, all on one line. No other line is as perfect. I have never fully accepted that the fast way from southern Brooklyn to Manhattan is via 6th Avenue. It is so dull and inconvenient compared to the Broadway Line.
      - Subject: Re: How about restoring N express service?
      - Message Number: 759394
      - Posted by: Lou
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: How about restoring N express service? posted by Carl M. Rabbin on November 12, 1997 at 11:20:26: I heard before everyone was talking about how bad the Manhattan Bridge is that the Q would be rerouted Browadway express through the 63rd street tunnel. Now that they say the Bridge might not even carry rail traffic in the near futrue I don't know if that plan is being rethought...
        
        Subject: Re: How about restoring N express service?
        Message Number: 759613
        Posted by: Bobw
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:12 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: How about restoring N express service? posted by Adam on November 11, 1997 at 20:30:03: My previous posting noted that the express should be restored only in Manhattan. I realize express service on the Astoria line is impractical. By the same token, as mentioned in other postings, the Broadway (Manhattan) line is a great visitor line, and it could even be better with swift express service.
        
        Subject: Re: How about restoring N express service?
        Message Number: 759645
        Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: How about restoring N express service? posted by Bobw on November 15, 1997 at 16:30:49: Once again, please remember that the time gained by running express from Canal St. to 57th is only about three minutes. Running expresses with matched 5 minute headways on the N and R would only serve to distort the headway on one end or the other. Customers don't like to wait long times for trains and then having two come together. Also, the service at the local stops could not be increased by adding R trains because of the need to mix the two services south of Canal. The only way to have an effective express service on the Broadway Line is to use the Bridge, and we all know the story there! Gerry
        
        Subject: Re: How about restoring N express service?
        Message Number: 759652
        Posted by: Philip Ng
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]How about restoring N express service? posted by Bobw on November 11, 1997 at 17:56:27: While the NR line is being repaired, uptown trains run express on weekends This is the closest you can get untill the manhattan bridge is fixed.
        
        Subject: Re: How about restoring N express service?
        Message Number: 759653
        Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: How about restoring N express service? posted by Gerry O'Regan on November 17, 1997 at 12:17:39: I agree. Without a third train that uses the Bridge, express service on the line would be worse than the current frequent local service. It is still hard to believe that the line in Manhattan that used to have 5 trains running through it - 3 Bridge expresses (Brighton, Sea Beach, West End), and two tunnel locals (Brighton, 4th Avenue) - during rush hours now has a grand total of two local trains.
        
        Subject: Re: How about restoring N express service?
        Message Number: 759880
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:57:47 1997

Thread title: JFK Light Rail System (759364)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:44:46 1997, by PAR

Subject: JFK Light Rail System
Message Number: 759364
Posted by: PAR
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:46 1997

When will the Port Authority of NY & NJ finally award the contract to design, build, operate, and maintain the JFK-LRS? They already have Mayor Giuliani's blessing. What are they waiting for? According to their press release as of 3/12/97 (www.panynj.gov/pr/22-97.html), they should of already completed their evaluation of the proposals sometime this summer. Of the five teams indicated by the P.A. as being pre-qualified: 1) Air-Rail Transit Consortium = Bombardier/Slattery/Perini/Karl Koch/Skanska USA 2) JFK Link = GEC Alsthom/Fluor Daniel/Morse Diesel 3) JFK Express Transit = Siemens/Parsons/Matra/Schiavone/DeFoe/Halmar 4) Raytheon-Ansaldo = Ansaldo/Raytheon 5) Sky Rail Systems = ABB/Yonkers/Granite/Turner/ICF Kaiser Which team would you bet on to win, and what do you imagine will the light-rail vehicles look like?
- Subject: Re: JFK Light Rail System
- Message Number: 759366
- Posted by: John
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:48 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]JFK Light Rail System posted by PAR on November 11, 1997 at 20:36:19: You're actually expecting the PANYNJ to get something done?? Oh, you have a lot to learn!!
  - Subject: Re: JFK Light Rail System
  - Message Number: 759381
  - Posted by: Todd Glickman
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:59 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]JFK Light Rail System posted by PAR on November 11, 1997 at 20:36:19: At the meeting of the New York Division of the ERA on Fri 21 November, the topic will be the JFK Light Rail System. As I recall, the guest speaker is from the PA and involved with the project. I'll post the particulars when I find the meeting announcement.

Thread title: Tandy faux PCC cars from real PCC parts (759368)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:44:49 1997, by Joe M

Subject: Tandy faux PCC cars from real PCC parts
Message Number: 759368
Posted by: Joe M
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:49 1997

I just ran across a page about the Tandy subway in Fort Worth TX that uses PCC cars made to look like shoe boxes here is the address http://www.flash.net/~cymartin/tandy.html PCC's just keep getting recycled
- Subject: Re: Tandy faux PCC cars from real PCC parts
- Message Number: 759393
- Posted by: Dan Lawrence
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:08 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Tandy faux PCC cars from real PCC parts posted by Joe M on November 11, 1997 at 20:50:35: The Tandy cars arn't "faux" PCC cars, they're recycled Washington DC PCC cars that were altered for the Leonard's /Tandy subway. The bodies (circa 1944 - 45) just wore out. The boxy bodies were constructed by Tandy itself and the rest of the components were transferred to the new bodies. The process was similar to what has been done in New Orleans and Portland. Mechanicaly the cars are all PCC cars, but none use "PCC" bodies. The process has been going on forever - Chicago, Cleveland New York and Boston all had rapid transit cars that used ERPCC components (in Chicago's case, PCC streetcars were recycled by St. Louis Car into "L" cars, making them True PCC rapid transit cars.
  - Subject: Re: Tandy faux PCC cars from real PCC parts
  - Message Number: 759419
  - Posted by: Joe M
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:30 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Tandy faux PCC cars from real PCC parts posted by Dan Lawrence on November 12, 1997 at 11:22:22: I know trucks and a controler make a PCC but... The parts live on.
    - Subject: Re: Tandy faux PCC cars from real PCC parts
    - Message Number: 759441
    - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:47 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Tandy faux PCC cars from real PCC parts posted by Joe M on November 12, 1997 at 23:44:45: All but one of the Tandy cars started out in Washington. One was originally from Boston. In all Tandy bought 8 cars from Boston for parts around 1980, but only rebodied one. Gerry
      - Subject: Re: Tandy faux PCC cars from real PCC parts
      - Message Number: 759471
      - Posted by: Joe M
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:10 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Tandy faux PCC cars from real PCC parts posted by Gerry O'Regan on November 13, 1997 at 12:25:50: Did they just rework the bodies and put new ends on the rest of them? Does anyone know how many they run and how long the line is?

Thread title: Die Hard 3 - Wall Street Station (759370)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:44:51 1997, by Gerald

Subject: Die Hard 3 - Wall Street Station
Message Number: 759370
Posted by: Gerald
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:51 1997

Is the station depicted in the Die Hard 3 movie an actual mock up of the station? I was wondering, because of all the signs in the station. -- Gerald
- Subject: Re: Die Hard 3 - Wall Street Station
- Message Number: 759384
- Posted by: Dave
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:01 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Die Hard 3 - Wall Street Station posted by Gerald on November 11, 1997 at 21:49:51: It's a mock-up. The "station" was created in the basement of a building in the financial district.
  - Subject: Re: Die Hard 3 - Wall Street Station
  - Message Number: 759396
  - Posted by: Gerald
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:11 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Die Hard 3 - Wall Street Station posted by Dave on November 12, 1997 at 09:48:44: I was pretty sure it was a mockup...not like they'd destroy a station. Was the props and signs in the "station" set up in a similar manner to the actual station? -- Gerald
    - Subject: Re: Die Hard 3 - Wall Street Station
    - Message Number: 759450
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:54 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Die Hard 3 - Wall Street Station posted by Gerald on November 11, 1997 at 21:49:51: Very definately a mock-up. The scene when Bruce Willis enters the subway and looks for the bomb took place on what looks like R-29 series IRT cars ("redbirds") that could run on the #3, so that part could be "true-to-life". But the train that enters "Wall Street" station is a series of R-30s that wouldn't fit on the #3 line because they're BMT cars built to wider dimensions! --Mark
      - Subject: Re: Die Hard 3 - Wall Street Station
      - Message Number: 759453
      - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:56 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Die Hard 3 - Wall Street Station posted by Mark S Feinman on November 13, 1997 at 13:17:01: How about the two cabs in that car? -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: Die Hard 3 - Wall Street Station
        Message Number: 759455
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Die Hard 3 - Wall Street Station posted by Gerald on November 12, 1997 at 12:22:01: not even close. Wall St on the 4/5 is side platform. Wall st on the 2/3 I can't remember, but thee platform was WAY to wide. -Hank

Thread title: Does anyone knows on when the electronic desination reading list will be (759371)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:44:51 1997, by .

Subject: Does anyone knows on when the electronic desination reading list will be
Message Number: 759371
Posted by: .
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:51 1997
- Subject: Re: Does anyone knows on when the electronic desination reading list will be
- Message Number: 759376
- Posted by: .
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:55 1997

Thread title: Re: walnut depot/Re:Trolleybus posting General Pick (759372)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:44:52 1997, by Fernando Perez

Subject: Re: walnut depot/Re:Trolleybus posting General Pick
Message Number: 759372
Posted by: Fernando Perez
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:52 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: walnut depot/Re:Trolleybus posting posted by trolleybus on November 11, 1997 at 14:06:42: This is very interesting because the General Pick happens in a couple of weeks, perhaps in preparation for some major movement. Maybe Mother Hale, 100 St and Amsterdam will go to Westside Depot and Walnuts lines will be split amoung the Bronx Division. I currently work in Amsterdam and latest rumour is that we will be staying another year at present location.
- Subject: Re: walnut depot/Re:Trolleybus posting General Pick
- Message Number: 759388
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:04 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: walnut depot/Re:Trolleybus posting General Pick posted by Fernando Perez on November 11, 1997 at 23:01:00: If Walnut closes soon the Bronx buses will once again be left with only two depots (KB and Gun Hill) It's already happened when KB was demolished and built again. What I don't understand is why Mother Hale is part of the Bronx division - They only have one Bronx route (BX33) and for as long as I can remember they have never handled more than one Bronx. Years ago the M Hale (then it was 146th Street depot) operated the old BX30 route which was later combined with the old BX31 to form the current BX19 which is a Walnut route. But the question still remains - what will happen with the SI express buses that normally layover in Manhattan during the day? In the worst case scenario they would have to deadhead back to their depots which is certainly not a good idea.

Thread title: Re: Subway-Airport Link Light Rail Els (759373)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:44:53 1997, by Fernando Perez

Subject: Re: Subway-Airport Link Light Rail Els
Message Number: 759373
Posted by: Fernando Perez
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:53 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: Subway-Airport Link posted by Annonymous, but informed on November 09, 1997 at 00:27:31: Trolleys are what Light Rail Vehicle's are called NOW. Els are related to rapid transit systems but trolleys have ran on ELs.

Thread title: Re: Can anyone clear up an Urban Legend??) (759379)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:44:57 1997, by All aboard

Subject: Re: Can anyone clear up an Urban Legend??)
Message Number: 759379
Posted by: All aboard
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:44:57 1997

In Reply to: [6]Who's Got the Mineola (Re: Can anyone clear up an Urban Ledgeand??) posted by Mark S Feinman on November 07, 1997 at 12:04:17: The sidings are just GCT storage tracks that dead-end northbound at the hotel (any good book on GCT has a track map). I doubt that any kind of passenger service ever was at that location, even for the President.

Thread title: Re: JFK Light Rail System +NY ERA Question (759392)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:45:08 1997, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: JFK Light Rail System +NY ERA Question
Message Number: 759392
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:08 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: JFK Light Rail System posted by Todd Glickman on November 12, 1997 at 08:59:35: How does one join the Electric Railroaders' Association?

Thread title: Re: General Pick (To Fernando) (759402)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:45:16 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Re: General Pick (To Fernando)
Message Number: 759402
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:16 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: walnut depot/Re:Trolleybus posting General Pick posted by Wayne Johnson on November 12, 1997 at 11:12:17: Fernando, if you are a Manhattan driver, do you stay in Manhattan? What are the options to move to any of the other boroughs? Would someone from your depot be able to move to Casey Stengel, say, and vice versa? Never knew, so any help would be appreciated.
- Subject: Re: General Pick (To Fernando)
- Message Number: 759406
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:19 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: General Pick (To Fernando) posted by Charles Fiori on November 12, 1997 at 13:30:23: I always thought that a switch such as the one Charles is asking about is more involved (if possible?) because it involves going from a MABSTOA depot to a NYCTA depot. A few years back when MABSTOA was hiring bus operators, I was a candidate but I already knew that I would have wanted to drive for NYCTA, preferrebly a Queen Village or Jamaica depot route - but while I was at 370 Jay St no one seemed to know what was involved to switch between MABSTOA and NYCTA. They just asked why? I'm sure Fernando will have the answer.
  - Subject: Re: General Pick (To Fernando)
  - Message Number: 759409
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:22 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: General Pick (To Fernando) posted by Wayne Johnson on November 12, 1997 at 15:54:56: Yes, Wayne, you hit the nail on the head. Having worked at 370 Jay Street myself (1980-82), I can attest to the often maddening inability to get even the simplest questions answered. I thought, however, that the distinctions between MaBSTOA and TA Bus services had been blurred.
    - Subject: Re: General Pick (To Fernando)
    - Message Number: 759411
    - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:24 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: General Pick (To Fernando) posted by Charles Fiori on November 12, 1997 at 16:19:08: Charles, It did seem as they (NYCTA and MaBSTOA) were merging when all buses were identified as "New York City Transit Authority", but today it seems that MaBSTOA is still very much alive internally. I remember when I was a kid NYCTA and MaBSTOA were very much separate - as when buses were transferred to another depot they didn't cross that NYCTA/MaBSTOA line. Even when new buses were delivered the TA buses always had lower fleet number than those that were assigned to MaBSTOA depots. Even to this day it seems sort of strange to me when buses are transferred between NYCTA and MABSTOA depots.
      - Subject: Re: General Pick (To Fernando)
      - Message Number: 759422
      - Posted by: Fernando Perez
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: General Pick (To Fernando) posted by Wayne Johnson on November 12, 1997 at 17:30:50: At Mabstoa we can only pick into another Mabstoa garage at the general pick without losing our senoirity. The only way to change to TA is to take a TA bus operator test. MABSTOA has its advantages, namely we dont lose senoirity in garage picks, we are not civil service. However we cannot take TA promotional tests like Train Operator. I was hired from a list that when you were called to 1250 Broadway. you were given a choice of TA or OA. I took OA because I live several blocks away from Amsterdam and Manhattanville depots. Walking distance! In the summer I went to the CMB at EAst New York depot and I noticed buses from all over there. I do think in the future the two systems will be united. I hope, so I can take the Train Operator test! Until then, all I will be able to operate all the trolleys at Branford.

Thread title: MBTA Question (759408)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:45:20 1997, by Wayne Johnson

Subject: MBTA Question
Message Number: 759408
Posted by: Wayne Johnson
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:20 1997

I noticed that the tunnels on the subway in Boston are well lit - Is this why MBTA trains operate without their headlights on in the tunnels?
- Subject: Re: MBTA Question
- Message Number: 759427
- Posted by: Fred Wellman
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:36 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]MBTA Question posted by Wayne Johnson on November 12, 1997 at 16:01:46: 10 Years ago they were using headlights. I did notice on the Green line they would shut the lights off when approaching a trolley going in the other direction. I am not sure now.
  - Subject: Re: MBTA Question
  - Message Number: 759440
  - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:46 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: MBTA Question posted by Fred Wellman on November 13, 1997 at 09:29:30: Headlights are required underground on the Green Line, and their use seems to be optional on the underground sections of the other lines. The first rapid transit cars to have real headlights were the cars bought from the St. Louis Car Co. in 1951 for the Revere Extension. The 1923-24 East Boston cars were equipped with similar units atop the roof in 1952. Orders for the Elevated in 1957-58 and the Cambridge-Dorchester Line in 1963 lacked headlights, but the 1969 South Shore cars came with headlights on the panel below the windshields, and all more recent orders have been similarly equipped. Headlights were retrofitted to the 1957-58 cars after 1975, and to the 1963 cars after 1980. In each case a two lamp locomotive headlight was attached above the communicating door. The tunnels have always been well lighted (scads of 56 watt strings and more recently flourescents), but the outdoor right-of-way between Andrew and Shawmut was extremely dark in places. Hope this helps. Gerry
    - Subject: Re: MBTA Question
    - Message Number: 759479
    - Posted by: Ed Sachs
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:16 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: MBTA Question posted by Gerry O'Regan on November 13, 1997 at 12:20:42: My recollection from the mid 1960s is that on the Blue line, the headlights were not used in the subway. Headlights were turned off inbound and turned on outbound at Airport station.
      - Subject: Re: MBTA Question
      - Message Number: 759496
      - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: MBTA Question posted by Ed Sachs on November 14, 1997 at 10:50:07: That is correct. Gerry

Thread title: Toronto's New Approach "If late don't stop" (759410)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:45:23 1997, by Russ Hilder

Subject: Toronto's New Approach "If late don't stop"
Message Number: 759410
Posted by: Russ Hilder
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:23 1997

Thanks to all those who replied about the Battery Runs and Expressing of trains in delays. We average about 10 to 20 mins. per day in delays for the usual, doors, sick patrons, injured and fights onboard. That does'nt count the pranksters who push the PAA Alarm strips then take off. The Express strategy appears to be working and its easier then short turning trains all the time. We also change over crews but that is time consuming because of the uneven headways. Anyway it should be interesting in how the application of NYC and Boston and Philly subway system operations will work up here in Toronto. We are being less British and more American every day. Can you say eh? Ya'll

Thread title: Great TTC Website (759414)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:45:26 1997, by Brian Wolk

Subject: Great TTC Website
Message Number: 759414
Posted by: Brian Wolk
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:26 1997

I finally found an amazing TTC website, since they don't have an official one yet. It's -- http://web.idirect.com/~ttc It offers great information and pictures, and is constantly updated.

Thread title: Re: walnut depot/Re:Trolleybus posting 54 St depot (759421)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:45:32 1997, by Fernando Perez

Subject: Re: walnut depot/Re:Trolleybus posting 54 St depot
Message Number: 759421
Posted by: Fernando Perez
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:32 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: walnut depot/Re:Trolleybus posting posted by Wayne Johnson on November 12, 1997 at 10:59:07: 54 Street depot is a long gone memory as it has been torn down for a new subway command center.

Thread title: Re: walnut depot/KB-MCH (759423)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:45:33 1997, by Fernando Perez

Subject: Re: walnut depot/KB-MCH
Message Number: 759423
Posted by: Fernando Perez
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:33 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: walnut depot/Re:Trolleybus posting General Pick posted by Fernando Perez on November 11, 1997 at 23:01:00: Whats also strange is that KB is in Manhattan also. I never understood why Walnut couldn't have the BX33, only 3 or 4 buses run all day on it. Also, why does the M60 not come out of Jackie Gleason. Not to mention the q32's being split between a OA and TA depot!
- Subject: Re: walnut depot/KB-MCH
- Message Number: 759470
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:09 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: walnut depot/KB-MCH posted by Fernando Perez on November 13, 1997 at 02:23:32: Yes, It is strange. Another example of that is Fresh Pond being in Queens but it's a Bklyn depot. Also some of FP routes are entirely in Queens such as the Q55 & Q58. Years ago these routes used to be the B55 & B58 respectively, even though they only touched the border of Bklyn when circling the block at their south (west) terminal. Other ENY and FP routes are mostly in Queens such as the Q24, Q54 & Q56 - These used to be the B22, B53 and B56. Go Figure.

Thread title: Re: The G & M (& L) Lines (759424)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:45:34 1997, by Sammy

Subject: Re: The G & M (& L) Lines
Message Number: 759424
Posted by: Sammy
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:34 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: The G & M Lines posted by Gary Jacobi on November 12, 1997 at 19:50:45: I think everyone's comments have been right on considering subway transit on Brooklyn's "east coast". As anyone who has walked around Williamsburgh these days knows, the demographics have completely shifted, placing an enormous burden on the J, M, G and L lines. If you don't realize this, take the L train from Graham Avenue on a Monday morning at 8:00 am, or for that matter, Bedford Avenue at night. If the M, J combines with the G, it wouldn't do much for either line. G riders rather take the A at Hoyt for downtown; M, J riders already have passage to Manhattan. Since the L is a two-track system, any delays along the line are felt and rather strongly too. Another cross-river line is needed, either along the L, or maybe the G can be diverted to a new Rutgers Street tunnel to run along the F to the east village. We'll call that the "V" train. Again, I think the way to go is also to provide a G transfer to the 7 at Vernon-Jackson in Long Island City.

Thread title: Re: JFK Light Rail System - ERA Meeting (759425)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:45:35 1997, by Todd Glickman

Subject: Re: JFK Light Rail System - ERA Meeting
Message Number: 759425
Posted by: Todd Glickman
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:35 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: JFK Light Rail System posted by Todd Glickman on November 12, 1997 at 08:59:35: The New York Division of the ERA will meet on Friday, 21 November at 7:15 p.m. (doors open at 6:15 p.m.) The program will be a presentation on the Port Authority's new light rail system from Jamaica to JFK, presented by Patty Clark, Outreach Manager for New York Airport Access from PANYNJ. The meeting will be held at the College of Insurance building, 101 Murray Street, between Greenwich and West Streets. By subway, use the Chambers Street station of the 1,2,3 and walk 1-1/2 blocks south then 1-1/2 blocks west. Admission for non-members of the New York Division of the ERA is $5. I hope to be there, and it would be good to meet other SubTalkers (I'll be wearing a CBS News baseball cap).

Thread title: Boston Transit Quiz - Answers (759426)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:45:36 1997, by Gerry O'Regan

Subject: Boston Transit Quiz - Answers
Message Number: 759426
Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:36 1997

EASY BOSTON SUBWAY QUIZ - Here are the answers: 1. Name the system's deepest underground station. Porter Sq. on the Red Line (used to be Aquarium on the Blue Line) 2. Name the only Rapid Transit Station to and from which a double fare is charged. Braintree 3. What do the Charlestown and Longfellow Bridges have in common? Both were constructed with provisions to add a rapid transit line at a later date. 4. What was Government Center Station was previously known as? Scollay Sq. (also Brattle St. and Scollay Under) 5. How could you get Charlie off the MTA? According to the Kingston Trio version (last verse): Now good citizens of Boston Don't you think its a scandal How the people have to pay and pay Fight the fare increase Vote for George O'Brien Get poor Charlie off the MTA 6. What station has the longest distance between its northbound and southbound platforms? State - almost three blocks 7. What historic building has a subway lobby in its basement? The Old State House - entrance to Blue and Orange Lines 8. In 1924 Patriots Day and Easter fell on the same weekend. What major change happened on the Boston Elevated? The East Boston Tunnel (Blue Line) was converted from streetcar to high platform rapid transit. 9. What do Cabot, Cadigan and Codman have in common? Yards on the Red Line - Cabot in South Boston, Codman near Ashmont and Cadigan at Braintree 10. What is the significance of 12:50 AM. All trains wait downtown at 12:50 AM to insure that no connections are missed. Except for a Beacon St. run returning from Lechmere, these are the last trains outbound from downtown until 5:30 AM. I was disappointed at how few people attempted this. Gerry
- Subject: Re: Boston Transit Quiz - Answers
- Message Number: 759429
- Posted by: DAve
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:38 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Boston Transit Quiz - Answers posted by Gerry O'Regan on November 13, 1997 at 09:01:47: > It's a NYC subway board, Gerry, not an MBTA board. I guess most of the regulars are much more knowledgable about the TA than the T. I enjoyed the quiz, nonetheless...I've been riding the T for about 30 years now (on trips to Boston) and remember the PCC's on the Green Line quite well - there are two of them awaiting restoration (still in T paint and logo scheme) at the Illinois Railway Museum. I also remember seeing the Type 5 snow sweepers at Reservior. Took the blue line subway to Logan Airport and Aquarium a few times, too...even went out to the amusement park once via the subway (that was the last stop on the line, wasn't it?) Many years ago I read a science fiction short story about a group of passengers riding the T and they notice they keep passing the same stations and are unable to get off of their PCC car. Turns out, the subway portion of the T turned into a mobious strip and there was no way out or off. Neat story!
  - Subject: Re: Boston Transit Quiz - Answers
  - Message Number: 759449
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:53 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Boston Transit Quiz - Answers posted by Gerry O'Regan on November 13, 1997 at 09:01:47: Isn't a double-fare charged at Quincy Adams Garage too (the stop before Braintree on the Red Line) where you have to put in another token to get out?? --Mark
    - Subject: Re: Boston Transit Quiz - Answers
    - Message Number: 759457
    - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:59 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Boston Transit Quiz - Answers posted by Gerry O'Regan on November 13, 1997 at 09:01:47: Easy, huh? The French Canadians I knew as a youth had an expression for this, "Le Tabernach" . Canadian friends, does it still apply?
      - Subject: Re: Boston Transit Quiz - Answers
      - Message Number: 759463
      - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Boston Transit Quiz - Answers posted by Mark S Feinman on November 13, 1997 at 13:08:38: IIRC when QA was opened it was the same as Braintree. It was moved into the same zone as Quincy Center coincident with a fare increase.

Thread title: Re: Crime in the Subways (Brooklyn Bridge Trip) (759428)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:45:37 1997, by Carl M. Rabbin

Subject: Re: Crime in the Subways (Brooklyn Bridge Trip)
Message Number: 759428
Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:37 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Crime in the Subways posted by Peter Rosa on November 12, 1997 at 21:34:10: Take the A train and get off at High Street in Brooklyn. (Clark St. is quite far and going from there to the Bklyn Br. is confusing unless you know Bklyn Hts. fairly well.) Anyway, the steps up to the bridge are right there, where one of the first large "pillars" is. It looks like a flat wall until you get close. Actually at night look for the street ramp onto the pedestrian walkway. And stay on the pedestrian side while walking; the bicylists are very unforgiving. On the Manhattan end, the Lexington Avenue Bklyn Bridge station is right there, and on the other side of City Hall is the BMT Broadway line. The former goes to Grand Central, the latter to Times Sq. (as we all know, but just in case...). The B->M view is much nicer than the M->B view. The entire bridge is just wonderful, unless you're driving on it in heavy fast-moving traffic.

Thread title: Another Good TTC site (759430)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:45:39 1997, by Russ Hilder

Subject: Another Good TTC site
Message Number: 759430
Posted by: Russ Hilder
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:39 1997

You can also find a very good site at http://www.toptown.com/hp/huities/ttc/ Done a student who loves the underground rail

Thread title: NYD-ERA Membership Questions (C.l.Rabbin) (759433)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:45:41 1997, by fotios

Subject: NYD-ERA Membership Questions (C.l.Rabbin)
Message Number: 759433
Posted by: fotios
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:41 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: JFK Light Rail System +NY ERA Question posted by Carl M. Rabbin on November 12, 1997 at 11:22:01: call 212-986-4482, and talk to an answering machine saying you want membership information and in a week you'll get all you need to know on how to join.
- Subject: Re: NYD-ERA Membership Questions (C.l.Rabbin)
- Message Number: 759466
- Posted by: Lefty
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:06 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]NYD-ERA Membership Questions (C.l.Rabbin) posted by fotios on November 13, 1997 at 11:20:43: what are the advantages of being part of the ERA?
  - Subject: Re: NYD-ERA Membership Questions (C.l.Rabbin)
  - Message Number: 759484
  - Posted by: fotios
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:20 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: NYD-ERA Membership Questions (C.l.Rabbin) posted by Lefty on November 13, 1997 at 16:32:06: Lefty, (is it lefteri, Eleftherios? Are you Greek?) I've been a member since 1990, there are two divisions the national and the New York Divison, Both are good but the New York Division offers more such as the Monthly Bulletin which comes in on time. (at least it does for me.) Monthly meetings on the 3rd friday of each month. (various subjects, not exclusively New York, Which I like, more variety.) a chance to be with ppl who like the subways and camaraderie with like minded people. Sherman
    - Subject: Re: NYD-ERA Membership Questions (C.l.Rabbin)
    - Message Number: 759485
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:21 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: NYD-ERA Membership Questions (C.l.Rabbin) posted by fotios on November 14, 1997 at 11:49:21: ... also, early word about subway fantrips that the ERA/NYD sponsors, and both groups have multiple trips throughout the year to other areas; I recall recent outings to Philly and Baltimore. --Mark
      - Subject: Re: NYD-ERA Membership Questions (C.l.Rabbin)
      - Message Number: 759606
      - Posted by: Lefty
      - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:07 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: NYD-ERA Membership Questions (C.l.Rabbin) posted by fotios on November 14, 1997 at 11:49:21: thanks for the info Lefty as in Left Handed

Thread title: Street renamings Update (759436)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:45:43 1997, by kapitanios Fotios Makritoxonis-Sherman Cheung

Subject: Street renamings Update
Message Number: 759436
Posted by: kapitanios Fotios Makritoxonis-Sherman Cheung
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:43 1997

to those who have asked what other street was renamed try this one, its in Manhattan on 79th street between 5th and madison or is it on park anyway that little stretch is now known as "Patriarch Bartholomew Way" for the Ecumenical patriarchate of Constantinople. (Ahem Cough cough "Istanbul") Now, if they would only extend that honor to Jiang Ze-min or lee teng-hui and rename Mott street. fotios , Sherman Cheung
- Subject: Re: Street renamings Update
- Message Number: 759464
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:05 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Street renamings Update posted by kapitanios Fotios Makritoxonis-Sherman Cheung on November 13, 1997 at 11:52:48: Patriarch Bartholomew Way is one of many "honorary" street renamings in Manhattan. In a case such as this, the street's name is not legally changed, and the honorary name is shown on a blue sign affixed near the sign that bears the "true" street name. An exception involves some of the main avenues in Harlem. Names such as Frederick Douglass Boulevard or Adam Clayton Powell Boulevard are in fact the legal names of the thoroughfares involved, though even there the residents normally use the old names (e.g. 8th Avenue for F.D. Boulevard).

Thread title: South Beach (759438)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:45:45 1997, by Keith

Subject: South Beach
Message Number: 759438
Posted by: Keith
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:45 1997

Does anyone know where the South Beach Statern Island Railrioad is located. I noted that most of it has been destroyed and there are warehouses built on top on the right-of-way. I walked along Edgewater Street but did not find a trace of the old tracks. I didn't see any bridges either. According to this site, there should be. Can anyone clarify this?
- Subject: Re: South Beach
- Message Number: 759452
- Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:55 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]South Beach posted by Keith on November 13, 1997 at 11:59:07: The South Beach Branch cutoff was just south (east) of the Clifton Station. The Clifton CB House is now on the site. Much of the old ROW is intact. It ran through Rosebank and Ft. Wadsworth. There was a bridge recently removed in the Clifton Area, and there are several rail bridges still intact along the line. There is an area near the Coast Guard housing where houses were built directly on the ROW, and the builder used the original bridge abutment as a retaining wall (The wall has '1939' or '1933' engraved in the concrete. Give me a day or so, and I can pull out my road map and get you exact locations. NYC-DOT is always rebuilding bridges where the road crosses the line, and there is are road bridges on Fingerboard Rd and McLean Ave, that I can remember off the top of my head. -Hank
  - Subject: Re: South Beach
  - Message Number: 759456
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:59 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: South Beach posted by Hank Eisenstein on November 13, 1997 at 13:45:52: I have an SIRT (employee, I think) timetable from before the extra lines on S.I. were abandoned. I'll look for it and report back with anything of interest.
    - Subject: Re: South Beach
    - Message Number: 759475
    - Posted by: A. Scarpinato
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:13 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: South Beach posted by Charles Fiori on November 13, 1997 at 13:57:48: Does anybody have an old map showing the actual location of the line, like between what two streets, not a hand sketch one.

Thread title: Philadelphia Transit Website? (759439)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:45:45 1997, by John

Subject: Philadelphia Transit Website?
Message Number: 759439
Posted by: John
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:45 1997

If Phildelphia transit has a website and, if you know the address, could you please post it? Thanks.
- Subject: Re: Philadelphia Transit Website?
- Message Number: 759445
- Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:50 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Philadelphia Transit Website? posted by John on November 13, 1997 at 12:08:05: SEPTA, Philadelphia's transit system, has a website. You can reach it at www.septa.org Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
  - Subject: Re: Philadelphia Transit Website?
  - Message Number: 759447
  - Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:52 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Philadelphia Transit Website? posted by John on November 13, 1997 at 12:08:05: SEPTA, Philadelphia's transit system, has a website. You can reach it at www.septa.org Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
    - Subject: Re: Philadelphia Transit Website?
    - Message Number: 759465
    - Posted by: steve
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:05 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Philadelphia Transit Website? posted by John on November 13, 1997 at 12:08:05: try DVARP ,,,excellant Philadelphia coverage Steve
      - Subject: Re: Philadelphia Transit Website?
      - Message Number: 759494
      - Posted by: John
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:28 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Philadelphia Transit Website? posted by Michael S. Buglak on November 13, 1997 at 12:59:41: Thanks!
        
        Subject: Re: Philadelphia Transit Website?
        Message Number: 759612
        Posted by: Bobw
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:12 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Philadelphia Transit Website? posted by John on November 13, 1997 at 12:08:05: DVARP is the Delaware Valley Association of Railroad Passengers (the Phila area is also referred to as the Delaware Valley). Its website is libertynet.org:80/~dvarp/ It has info and news on Phila area commuter rail and transit operations and posts its current newsletter (which is quite good) on the website.
        
        Subject: Re: Philadelphia Transit Website?
        Message Number: 759650
        Posted by: John the Second
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Philadelphia Transit Website? posted by Bobw on November 15, 1997 at 16:23:19: Thanks very much. I looked through the site quickly, and it looks great! Thanks once again.

Thread title: Subway Emergency Braking System (759442)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:45:48 1997, by GarfieldA

Subject: Subway Emergency Braking System
Message Number: 759442
Posted by: GarfieldA
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:45:48 1997

About two days ago I was on a Manhattan bound J train (R42 cars). Then when entering the Cypress Hills station, the train just came to a complete stop in less then 10 seconds. And it was strange that when it stopped, nearly half of the subway cars didn't even make the station. Right then and there I knew that the motorman passed a red signal. I pretty much know the route since I've been using the line for an x amount of years and at that point of the line when entering the Cyp. Hills station the train goes through a series of red signals before actually pulling in and coming to a stop. My question is do cases like this get reported either by the motorman or conducter of that particular train that was involved in the incident.
- Subject: Re: Subway Emergency Braking System
- Message Number: 759478
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:15 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Subway Emergency Braking System posted by GarfieldA on November 13, 1997 at 12:31:49: Subway motormen are subject to disciplinary action if they pass red signals and trigger the automatic stops. In fact, the levers that engage the tripcocks are covered with a yellow substance (chalk?) that leaves marks on the trains, so there will be proof. I'm not sure who has the responsibility for reporting incidents like these, conductors or motormen themselves.
  - Subject: Re: Subway Emergency Braking System
  - Message Number: 759488
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:23 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway Emergency Braking System posted by Peter Rosa on November 14, 1997 at 09:28:43: The yellow substance is paint. Motorpersons need to report the incident to Command Center ASAP. They will need to get down on the track and reset the tripper on the car by hand.
    - Subject: Re: Subway Emergency Braking System
    - Message Number: 759493
    - Posted by: Lou
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:27 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway Emergency Braking System posted by Peter Rosa on November 14, 1997 at 09:28:43: Trippers are painted Yellow, tripcocks are look white to me. Command should have been called right there on the spot and the crew had to go on the roadbed to reset the tripper. The operator could have put the train in emergancy without running a red signal. Maybe a "passanger" was on the tracks by the station or some debris on the track. About once every three months on the (in other words it happens enough for me to make note of it) on the first run Q Monday morning will TRIP near Church Ave (right before or after) due to derbis left in the roadbed. The crew more times than not say that Vandils have left it to stop the train. Easy since most of the time the express tracks aren't used from 9pm Friday until 6am Monday unless a MOW move on the weekend.
      - Subject: Re: Subway Emergency Braking System
      - Message Number: 759497
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Subway Emergency Braking System posted by GarfieldA on November 13, 1997 at 12:31:49: There are many aspects to the question you ask. First. If the train was partially into the station, the signal in question was an 'Automatic' signal, meaning it is not controlled by a tower but governed by the blocks in front of it. Yes, the Train Operator (per rule 36A)is obliged to report the incident, immediately. The 'stop arm' is painted yellow while the trip cock is painted white so strike marks will be visible on one if not both. The tripcock has a wooden 'Snow block' taped to it which will have been knocked off by the incident and would need to be replaced. Now the question is, did the train operator run the signal or did the signal flash and did the stop arm come up under the train, tripping the emergency brakes in another car. One can not automatically assume that the train operator ran the signal as there are numerous reasons for an emergency brake application.

Thread title: Restore the NYS&W by NJ Transit. (759472)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:46:11 1997, by Mike

Subject: Restore the NYS&W by NJ Transit.
Message Number: 759472
Posted by: Mike
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:11 1997

I think it's about time NJ Transit restores passenger rail service along the Susquehanna rail line between the Paterson Station on the Main line to Sparta to relieve traffic conjection along both Routes 23 & 208 & to serve the growing population of both Passiac & Sussex Counties.In addition, I have the proposed train schedule for the line.
- Subject: Re: Restore the NYS&W by NJ Transit.
- Message Number: 759477
- Posted by: andy
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:15 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Restore the NYS&W by NJ Transit. posted by Mike on November 13, 1997 at 22:10:29: What do you think about New York Subway system?
  - Subject: Re: Restore the NYS&W by NJ Transit.
  - Message Number: 759483
  - Posted by: Lou from Middletown
  - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:19 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Restore the NYS&W by NJ Transit. posted by Mike on November 13, 1997 at 22:10:29: Believe or not NJT is actually doing the usual "fesibility studies" about actually doing this! The only problem is that they don't want to extend the line to its "natuaral" terminal in Warwick.-The usual political garbage that they don't want to subsidize NY with NJ dollars, totally ignoring for instance that Metro-North subsidizes most of the cost of the Pascack Valley Line, which NJ benefits from greatly!And so it goes....
    - Subject: Re: Restore the NYS&W by NJ Transit.
    - Message Number: 759487
    - Posted by: Andrew Byler
    - Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:22 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Restore the NYS&W by NJ Transit. posted by Lou from Middletown on November 14, 1997 at 11:42:17: There are a few problems with extending the Susie-Q line all the way to Warwick, NY. First of all would be the travel time - namely, very long. Second is the distance involvd - 26 miles of line beyond Sparta, 48 miles of line beyond Butler. The money necessary to reopen that much line would be better spent on the West Shore Line. Third is the direction - to get to Warwick, the train would travel west and then northeast! This makes very little sense. Warwick does not seem to be a natural terminus by any means. Butler or Sparta do. As far as I know, the current proposal is to extend initial service to Butler from the jct. at Hawthorne from the old Erie line. Andy

Thread title: Van Dorn couplers (759474)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:46:12 1997, by Dan Lawrence

Subject: Van Dorn couplers
Message Number: 759474
Posted by: Dan Lawrence
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:12 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Sybway and moivie "Ghostbusters 2" posted by Gerry O'Regan on November 13, 1997 at 12:59:34: Not just El cars. Every streetcar in Baltimore carried two Van Dorn couplers and the newer cars carried a compromise coupler that fit the drawbar pocket and had a Van Dorn head on it. (That's how you tow a semi with a Witt or PCC.) At BSM we usually "jack" the heads to the same level with a switch iron. Not for the totally faint of heart (it wows the riders to see 2 women do it). The links also serve to keep the center window on closed platform cars closed.

Thread title: GG, L (BMT 14th St-Canarsie Line) train Questions... (759476)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:46:14 1997, by Neil

Subject: GG, L (BMT 14th St-Canarsie Line) train Questions...
Message Number: 759476
Posted by: Neil
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:14 1997

As a fairly regular rider of the L (BMT 14th St-Canarsie) line I have two questions: #1) What is the status of ventilation for the 14th Street tunnel? I've heard that only one train at a time is allowed in the tunnel due to problems with the emergency exhasut. Is the TA going to fix this? (Hopefully sometime before J,M,Z service is effected by Williamsburg Br. construction?) ~~~~~~~~~~~~ #2) The Lorimer Street station has a nice connection to the IND GG "Metropolitan-Grand" mezzaine. Currently all the GG train entrances south of Metropolitan are closed off with construction fencing. Does the TA ever plan to re-open these entrances? Thanks... Neil

Thread title: Single Letter Express, Double Lette Local (Re: Let's take a poll!) (759486)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:46:21 1997, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Single Letter Express, Double Lette Local (Re: Let's take a poll!)
Message Number: 759486
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:21 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: Let's take a poll! posted by Lou from Middletown on November 14, 1997 at 11:36:49: Well, if a train ran express its entire length, and if it had a local that ran along with the express for most of its length, this would make sense. But most trains running today don't run express all the time. And some local trains on the NYC subway system don't parallel their express brothers. How would this naming scheme work on 6th Avenue for example? What defines express? The F runs express in Queens but local in Manhattan. At one time, the IND lines were "closed" enough that this may have made sense, but it really doesn't anymore. I really don't see a better alternative than giving each train its own identify, which I think NYC Transit has tried to do with the elimination of the double letters. --Mark
- Subject: Re: Single Letter Express, Double Lette Local (Re: Let's take a poll!)
- Message Number: 759491
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:25 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Single Letter Express, Double Lette Local (Re: Let's take a poll!) posted by Mark S Feinman on November 14, 1997 at 13:10:39: I agree 100%. Division 1 (IRT) uses single numbers without a problem. And we still have H, K, T, V, W, Y left anyway. I know H, K, and T have been used in the past, but maybe they can recycle them, IF they ever expand the system, which seems unlikely in our lifetime. (They will probably never use I (looks like 1), O (looks like 0), P (potentially vulgar), U(looks like V), X(implies vulgarity or negativity).

Thread title: What is DVARP? (759495)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:46:28 1997, by John

Subject: What is DVARP?
Message Number: 759495
Posted by: John
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:28 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Philadelphia Transit Website? posted by steve on November 13, 1997 at 15:35:52: Steve: Those of us who are not among the initiated would like to know what DVARP is. What can you tell us about it? Does it have a website? If yes, what is the address? Thank you.
- Subject: Re: What is DVARP?
- Message Number: 759500
- Posted by: John, John, John!!!
- Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:33 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]What is DVARP? posted by John on November 14, 1997 at 17:38:58: Come on, man! No offense to you, but if more than one person on this site uses the same name, it's liable to create a lot of confusion. I ask you kindly to PLEASE identify yourself with a different name. I'm the "original" John on this site, and please don't use the exact same name. Thank you for your cooperation.
  - Subject: Re: What is DVARP?
  - Message Number: 759531
  - Posted by: Bootsy-John
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:05 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: What is DVARP? posted by John The Second on November 17, 1997 at 12:49:30: I understand what you're saying, but the only reason I was requesting you to use a different name was so that there wouldn't be any confusion, or just to minimize the chances of misunderstandings and what-not. I am not trying to dominate the name or site in any way, but actually just trying to make clear that there were two persons using the name 'John'. However, like I stated above, I will start signing my posts by 'Bootsy' in order to prevent confusion. I also happen to like that name and that is the nickname that my friends call me. Don't worry though, I'm not going to legally change my name to "Bootsy"!! It's not exactly a name that fits the Armenian heritage!!!!
    - Subject: Re: What is DVARP?
    - Message Number: 759604
    - Posted by: David Pirmann - Web Site Host
    - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:05 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: What is DVARP? posted by John, John, John!!! on November 14, 1997 at 22:43:32: Why don't you guys just use your last names? What do you have to hide? I don't think anyone who just uses "John" as a handle can really claim they "own" it. So lets not get into these little squabbles eh?
      - Subject: Re: What is DVARP?
      - Message Number: 759621
      - Posted by: NAME CHANGE -- PLEASE READ THIS!!
      - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: What is DVARP? posted by David Pirmann - Web Site Host on November 15, 1997 at 12:31:52: Okay, if that's the case -- this is the "Original John", who will now go by the name of "Bootsy". This is not my last name, but just a nickname that some of my friends call me.
        
        Subject: Re: What is DVARP?
        Message Number: 759646
        Posted by: John The Second
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: What is DVARP? posted by NAME CHANGE -- PLEASE READ THIS!! on November 15, 1997 at 19:55:34: Come on, guys. Get real. The purpose of this and similar sites is to promote the exchange of information among people who have the same interests. You're not promoting this purpose when you cause bad feeling and attack people without reason. We shouldn't even be dicussing such childish issues. As far as the issue of using my last name, there was a time when I DID use my last name. Every time I submitted a comment, I was subject to verbal abuse from a person who still contributes comments to this site. I stopped making postings for many months and only reluctantly decided to post a message about the Philadelphia transit site. Now, after all these months, when I finally decide to post a message, I am immedicately attacked by someone who believes he has the exclusive web site rights to the name John! As I said, these types of sites should be used to share information and not be used as vehicle to create bad feeling or act out childish behavior.

Thread title: R-142 Exterior paint (759498)
Started on Thu Nov 20 19:46:31 1997, by Steve

Subject: R-142 Exterior paint
Message Number: 759498
Posted by: Steve
Date: Thu Nov 20 19:46:31 1997

Recently, a 5-car R-62 had a portion of its' front end painted to present possible paint schemes for the R-142s. The lead car was painted from just below the Train Operators' vision glass to the first door on either side. One side was in Tuscan Red and the other in Maroon. The goal, I am told, was to give the lead car of the R-142s a "Locomotive-like look". I'm told that the R-62 will be returned to 'normal' after the presentation and will not run in service with the new paint scheme.
- Subject: Re: R-142 Exterior paint
- Message Number: 759503
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:40 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: R-142 Exterior paint posted by Mark S Feinman on November 17, 1997 at 13:34:56: As of Thursday night, the train was at 207th ST. Overhaul Shop but it will be 'cleaned' before leaving the facility.
  - Subject: Re: R-142 Exterior paint
  - Message Number: 759505
  - Posted by: Zack
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:42 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: R-142 Exterior paint posted by Nick on November 15, 1997 at 22:59:34: I agree
    - Subject: Re: R-142 Exterior paint
    - Message Number: 759597
    - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
    - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:00 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]R-142 Exterior paint posted by Steve on November 14, 1997 at 19:17:20: Why would they paint a stainless steel car with fiberglass ends? It doesn't need paint! -Hank
      - Subject: Re: R-142 Exterior paint
      - Message Number: 759598
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:01 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: R-142 Exterior paint posted by Hank Eisenstein on November 15, 1997 at 00:25:14: You know that & I know that but the Customer Service people think otherwise
        
        Subject: Re: R-142 Exterior paint
        Message Number: 759600
        Posted by: Dave
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:02 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: R-142 Exterior paint posted by Steve on November 15, 1997 at 07:20:49: Did anyone get a picture of this paint scheme?
        
        Subject: Re: R-142 Exterior paint
        Message Number: 759626
        Posted by: Nick
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: R-142 Exterior paint posted by Dave on November 15, 1997 at 10:42:12: The R110's exterior is fine....why do we need to have this type of change on the R142?? The MTA should spend their money on hiring more train operators...so we don't have to wait so damn long for our trains!!-NICK
        
        Subject: Re: R-142 Exterior paint
        Message Number: 759649
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]R-142 Exterior paint posted by Steve on November 14, 1997 at 19:17:20: Tuscan Red? Does someone in Customer Service think they work for the Pennsylvania Railroad? :) Do you know if this 5 car unit is basking in the sun somewhere so we can try to get a picture of it? I *hope* to be able to do some railfanning next week. --Mark

Thread title: Re: Toronto's Battery Runs and Express Experiment (oh-oh) (759501)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:52:38 1997, by Joe M

Subject: Re: Toronto's Battery Runs and Express Experiment (oh-oh)
Message Number: 759501
Posted by: Joe M
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:38 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Toronto's Battery Runs and Express Experiment (oh-oh) posted by Andrew Huie on November 16, 1997 at 01:40:23: Educate me please! What is a battery run?? Still learning the jargon.
- Subject: Toronto's Battery Runs and Express Experiment (oh-oh)
- Message Number: 759614
- Posted by: Russ
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:13 1997
  
  Well it seems like the power struggle has begun. THE BOSS Mr. G brought up Mr. L (on contract from MTA) up to Toronto to advise on service modifications. Express trains, battery runs, by passing etc. Well things where going along pretty well and it seem to be working when suddenly the rules change in mid stream (again) and we can't do it anymore because we ? (sic) failed to inform the public about our new stradegies about how to run a Subway. Do you experience the same type of what's right one day is wrong the next day in NYC? Just curious.
  - Subject: Re: Toronto's Battery Runs and Express Experiment (oh-oh)
  - Message Number: 759630
  - Posted by: Andrew Huie
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:26 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Toronto's Battery Runs and Express Experiment (oh-oh) posted by Russ on November 15, 1997 at 16:31:52: If enough public oe media pressure is applied to the right elected official yes, it will happen. Rather often as a matter of fact.
    - Subject: Re: Toronto's Battery Runs and Express Experiment (oh-oh)
    - Message Number: 759648
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:41 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Toronto's Battery Runs and Express Experiment (oh-oh) posted by Russ on November 15, 1997 at 16:31:52: If NYC Transit were to change its policy on something, for example, giving tickets to people that place their bags on an adjacent seat, we usually hear about it before it happens, sometimes (most of the time) in the paper and other times from NYC Transit press releases through the news. I suppose if NYC Transit never did Battery Runs before and then suddenly started doing them, that there'd be an outcry of some sort here, too. Perhaps after announcing the "experiment" to the public, TTC will try this again. --Mark

Thread title: Re: R68 become Coupled Semi-Permanent?? (759502)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:52:39 1997, by Steve

Subject: Re: R68 become Coupled Semi-Permanent??
Message Number: 759502
Posted by: Steve
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:39 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: R68 become Coupled Semi-Permanent?? posted by Eric B on November 17, 1997 at 19:32:40: The R-68s will be permanently linked into 4-car units beginning in 1999. The modification is being done because 4-car units are mechanically more reliable and more cost effective to maintain, than single car units. They will then be based in Coney Island and switched into Q, or N service while the D line will likely be served by R-32s or R-42s. However, Concourse Shop can easily handle 4 75' cars. The inspection pits in Concourse Shop are 625' long and will accommodate 2 4-car units per track. The reason the R-68s will be moved is because of fleet management considerations. If the R-68s are moved to Coney Island, Coney Island would have to maintain just 2 different typrs of cars (R-68 & R-68A) instead of the 4 types they now maintain.
- Subject: Re: R68 become Coupled Semi-Permanent??
- Message Number: 759587
- Posted by: Eric B
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:51 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: R68 become Coupled Semi-Permanent?? posted by Lefty on November 17, 1997 at 19:45:40: I don't think so; the purpose is not space, and the cars that were done didn't have any cabs removed.
  - Subject: R68 become Coupled Semi-Permanent??
  - Message Number: 759641
  - Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:35 1997
    
    I noticed on the D train that some of the R68's (could be A's don't know) have been modified to two sets of four cars of semipermanently coupled cars ala the R46. All operator controls and even the seats have been removed (they left the windshield wipers ) from other than the two ends. Everything is gone, gauges, seat, speedometer and cap over the brake handle slot. Why the sudden change?? Wouldn't a failure in one car of the set take 4 cars out of service instead of one making it harder to make up full 8 car train sets? Was there any change to the equipment on the undercarriage like sharing compressors or somehting (more R46 like) or was this just a change in the couplers and the moterman's closet?? (Maybe they are running out of operator seats and need a quick replacement)
    - Subject: Re: R68 become Coupled Semi-Permanent??
    - Message Number: 759662
    - Posted by: Eric B
    - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:52 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]R68 become Coupled Semi-Permanent?? posted by Lou from Brooklyn on November 17, 1997 at 11:07:48: This is what they,ve been doing to the R-68A's beginning two years ago. Because of this, they can't use the Concourse shops, which was originally an IRT facility and can't hold 4 75ft cars.So they've been shuffling the 68-A's around. I heard that they will eventually do this to the 68's also, and the D will revert back to the 1981-6 period, restricted to older equipment (60 ft cars). OR, a ridiculous B/C switch at the northern terminals, so the D will operate out oc Coney Is, and the B, Concourse. From what I hear, this work is being done because there is some benefit to having less controls in the cars. I would just hope they cut the 68-A's at least into two car sets to operate out of Concourse when the Manhattan Bridge is closed. Eric B
      - Subject: Re: R68 become Coupled Semi-Permanent??
      - Message Number: 759664
      - Posted by: Lefty
      - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:53 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: R68 become Coupled Semi-Permanent?? posted by Eric B on November 17, 1997 at 19:32:40: are they planning on removing the empty operators closet so more seats for passengers could be installed? it seems like a feasible thing to do. you could probably fit in one or two more seats there?
        
        Subject: Re: R68 become Coupled Semi-Permanent??
        Message Number: 759882
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:57:52 1997
        
        Subject: Re: R68 become Coupled Semi-Permanent??
        Message Number: 759938
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:59:58 1997

Thread title: Re: Baltimore's Light Rail (759504)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:52:41 1997, by Alan Follett

Subject: Re: Baltimore's Light Rail
Message Number: 759504
Posted by: Alan Follett
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:41 1997

In Reply to: [7]Baltimore's Light Rail posted by Timothy on November 17, 1997 at 19:11:21: Baltimore's light rail is mostly on PROW--at the north end, on the ex-PRR, ex-Northern Central; at the south end, ex-Baltimore & Annapolis. There;s no subway operation, and the closest thing to elevated is a longish bridge south of Camden Yards. The section through downtown Baltimore involves about a mile and a half of street running through the rather decrepit commercial strip along Howard Street. The new Hunt Valley extension, at the extreme north end, is mostly side-of-the-road operation through a sort of industrial park. As to how dangerous any of the areas may be, I'll leave the question to folks with better knowledge of the territory (and to your personal comfort level); I can only say that on a visit to Baltimore in September I never felt particularly uneasy anywhere on the system.
- Subject: Re: Baltimore's Light Rail
- Message Number: 759508
- Posted by: Dan Lawrence
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:45 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Baltimore's Light Rail posted by Alan Follett on November 17, 1997 at 23:47:00: The Central Light Rail Line does not go thru any really bad areas. Most of the line is in or near streets, the only part of the line that is not near streets is the southern portion (below Camden Station). The line crosses the middle branch of the Patapsco River, and then passes thru Westport and Cherry Hill before entering the former B&A at Patapsco Avenue. The B&A line parallels, at some distance, Annapolis Road. Buy a $3.00 Day Pass (at any Light Rail Ticket Machine) and you will have UNLIMITED riding on the MTA system that day. Also on that visit (if on a weekend), stop by the Baltimore Streetcar Museum (www.baltimorenews.com/streetcar) to see the "grandparents" of today's Light Rail. Also, as of today (11/18) the Penn Station and BWI extensions are not yet operating. (Insufficent equipment and power problems on Penn Stn branch.)
  - Subject: Re: Baltimore's Light Rail
  - Message Number: 759511
  - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:47 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Baltimore's Light Rail posted by Dan Lawrence on November 18, 1997 at 08:07:15: The only street running is on Howard street between the Camden Yards station and Mount Royal Avenue. It is elevated (1-track from Camden Yards to Westport), and from Linthicum to Ferndale, I think. It runs every 15 minutes. When the new branches are open each branch will run every 17 minutes, and the combined section (Linthicum - Mt. Royal Avenue) will be 8.5 minutes. This past year they had to double track a section south of Patapsco Avenue so that they could have the more frequent service, but it's not running yet. It has more interesting sections than can be imagined, a one-track elevated that runs over a river mouth and under 2 elevated expressways next to factories and swamps, a section on the edge of a forest in a deep valley next to an elevated (in the valley) expressway, and snaking down Howard St, which, while not great anymore (all 4 deparment stores have left the street, 3 through going out of business totally), is not dangerous. As for station safety, Westport and Cherry Hill are a bit isolated, but the others are absolutely fine. I use it periodically and love it. It's very slow on Howard Street, taking 18 minutes to go from Pratt St. to North Avenue a distance of 2 miles. The other 23 miles are done in about 50 minutes. The fine for not having a ticket on the light rail is $265. A day ticket is $3.00. The MTA recently eliminated bus transfers and most zone charges, and instituted the day ticket to encourage use during lunch hours and to simplify matters (which also encourages use). So for the price of a former round trip transfer ride, you get all day use and the drivers don't have to inspect and keep track of transfers. Don't forget to try the Metro train line which runs from Owings Mills to Johns Hopkins Hospital in East Baltimore. It's above ground west of Mondawmin Mall, and is elevated or in an expressway median for much of it. It's clean, safe, and you can easily see out the front window. It is nearly a duplicate of the Miami Metro, by the way, down to the color schemes and the chime when the door closes. The day ticket is good on the Metro train, the light rail, and all buses equally. Have fun, have a crab cake, and "How 'bout them O's?"
    - Subject: Re: Baltimore's Light Rail
    - Message Number: 759518
    - Posted by: Mark Greenwald
    - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:53 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Baltimore's Light Rail posted by Carl M. Rabbin on November 18, 1997 at 10:04:24: There's not much more that can be said that hasn't been said by the previous posts, about the light rail, that is. Now, for the Metro line, I used to commute it on a daily basis a few years ago and let me tell you, the system itself is very safe & clean, it's the neighborhoods that surround some of the stations that are a little scary, especially after dark. If you want to "ride the system", park out at the Owings Mills station which has easy access off of I-795 which is exit #19 off the Baltimore Beltway (I-695), then, ride the line downtown. Each of the underground stations has its own character and artwork, I, myself particularly like the Mondawmin, Lexington Mkt. & the Charles Ctr. stations. The neighborhoods to avoid would be the ones around the Cold Spring, Penn/North & Upton stations. Bad crime & drug problem in the neighborhoods around the 2nd two mentioned, but, the stations are underground and you should have no reason to venture up to ground level. All stations have station attendants & have closed circuit TV. If you have any more specific questions, feel free to e-mail me.
      - Subject: Baltimore's Light Rail
      - Message Number: 759658
      - Posted by: Timothy
      - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:49 1997
        
        Can anyone tell me if any portions of Baltimore's Light Rail Line runs in a subway tunnel, on an el structure, or private right-of-way? Or is it mostly a streetcar line? Also, Does Baltimore's Light Rail, and subway line pass through any dangerous neighborhoods? Because I'm planning to visit Baltimore in the very near future to photograph their subway and Light Rail system, and I want to know what areas to avoid. I may also ride, and photograph the MARC commuter rail system. Thanks.

Thread title: MetroCard Vs. Token (759506)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:52:43 1997, by Hank Eisenstein

Subject: MetroCard Vs. Token
Message Number: 759506
Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:43 1997

Ta announced today that the metrocard was used more often for trips in September than tokens, for the first time since it was introduced. -Hank
- Subject: Re: MetroCard Vs. Token
- Message Number: 759509
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:46 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]MetroCard Vs. Token posted by Hank Eisenstein on November 18, 1997 at 06:55:23: Even though MetroCard may have surpassed the token in usage, it still hasn't become the "default" fare. If you give, for example, $6 to a RR clerk without saying anything, the clerk will give you four tokens, not a MetroCard. It will be interesting to see when that changes.
  - Subject: Re: MetroCard Vs. Token
  - Message Number: 759512
  - Posted by: Nick
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:48 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: MetroCard Vs. Token posted by Peter Rosa on November 18, 1997 at 09:27:00: I find the metrocard has been very convenient since you've been able to use it at every station. If I was a bus rider, I'm sure I'd like the free transfers too. Sometimes I can't get through(to the subway) at one machine, and I have to go to another turnstile to get through. has anyone found some other gliches?-NICK
    - Subject: Re: MetroCard Vs. Token
    - Message Number: 759514
    - Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
    - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:50 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: MetroCard Vs. Token posted by Nick on November 18, 1997 at 10:10:15: While I usually can get through the machine, my 12-year old daughter always gets "Too Fast" or "Too Slow" with those metrocards. She just can't get it to work. Otherwise they work great to me.
      - Subject: Re: MetroCard Vs. Token
      - Message Number: 759532
      - Posted by: Subway Man
      - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: MetroCard Vs. Token posted by Nick on November 18, 1997 at 10:10:15: I HATE the Metrocard for that very reason: I usually have to go to 2 or 3 different turnstiles in order for the card to work. I have missed numerous trains because of this "glitch". I much prefer to use tokens because of this reason, and also because you just don't know how much value you have on your metrocard until you get to the station, and even then every station doesn't have one of those "metrocard readers". I vow to use the token as long as I possibly can until the Transit Authority forces me to use Metrocard.
        
        Subject: Re: MetroCard Vs. Token
        Message Number: 759536
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: MetroCard Vs. Token posted by Subway Man on November 18, 1997 at 16:34:32: I have heard this complaint a lot but it really seems it comes down to the age/quality of the particular card and the "technique" of the swiper. I've been using the Metrocard since December '93 and only once in a while need to reswipe. If anything I find the card swipe much faster than using a token. Maybe you can use the fare remaining display machines to practice your swipes. Or if the card is getting old, get a new one. (It seems faster to buy a new card than get an old one refilled anyway.)
        
        Subject: Re: MetroCard Vs. Token
        Message Number: 759547
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: MetroCard Vs. Token posted by Carl M. Rabbin on November 18, 1997 at 10:27:55: I wasn't too good with the card either when I started. I didn't care for it that much until I picked up the tecnique. Now I find it easier than tokens. You don't have to search in your pants for them. I just realized how gross that last sentance probbly sounded. Anyway... When are tokens supposed to be gone??? I'd sure like to get a few before they kill them off...
        
        Subject: Re: MetroCard Vs. Token
        Message Number: 759551
        Posted by: subman23
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: MetroCard Vs. Token posted by David Pirmann on November 18, 1997 at 17:16:00: I believe a six minute grace period was built into the Metrocard transfer. This is to prevent customer / railroad arguments over transfers that expired by a few seconds. More importantly, token booth terminals have clocks that may not display the exact time.
        
        Subject: Re: MetroCard Vs. Token
        Message Number: 759564
        Posted by: fotios
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:32 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: MetroCard Vs. Token posted by Subway Man on November 18, 1997 at 16:34:32: Alright!! sounds like me. foti
        
        Subject: Re: MetroCard Vs. Token
        Message Number: 759937
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:59:56 1997

Thread title: Re: Slow Subways (759507)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:52:44 1997, by sammy

Subject: Re: Slow Subways
Message Number: 759507
Posted by: sammy
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:44 1997

In Reply to: [7]Slow Subways posted by Jeff on November 15, 1997 at 17:43:59: Hey Steve. Nice to hear from you again. Thanks fir the engineering overview (see, I knew I should have been a civil rather than chemical engineer undergraduate!!!!). The question is what to do about it. Seems to me I heard somewhere where MTA estimates have been revised upwards, vis-a-vis their operating profits. How lovely. Now, can we use it for something effective like updating the technology? Hmm. Seems we've been down this road before. Slower trains cause delays....which in turn cause more delays.....which lead to the unapoplectic MTA shrugging and saying "what, us worry? We don't ride the trains, you do." Another example of Nero fiddling while Rome burns.....
- Subject: Slow Subways
- Message Number: 759616
- Posted by: Jeff
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:15 1997
  
  Why is the subway so slow nowadays? I have been riding the subway since '91 and it seems that they have gotten slower over the past 3 years. The #5 train used to speed though Brooklyn and go even faster in Manhattan. Now it constantly slows down in tunnels where it used to speed through before. What's the deal? I know safety is a concern, but if they operated subways faster before why slow them down now?
  - Subject: Re: Slow Subways
  - Message Number: 759618
  - Posted by: Adam
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:16 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Slow Subways posted by Jeff on November 15, 1997 at 17:43:59: I think that two factors come into play: 1) Due to a number of accidents and near accidents in the subway since 1991, I think that the MTA has ordered all trains to go at a slower, and hence safer speed. 2) More importantly, with the installation of speedometers in trains, train operators now know exactly how fast they are going, unlike it used to be in past years when they had to gauge how fast they were going, and as a result often went much faster than they were supposed to be going.
    - Subject: Re: Slow Subways
    - Message Number: 759619
    - Posted by: John
    - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:17 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Slow Subways posted by Adam on November 15, 1997 at 19:36:40: It's unfortunate, though, because I really miss the speeds at which the trains used to go. It made the ride a lot more exciting.
      - Subject: Re: Slow Subways
      - Message Number: 759624
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Slow Subways posted by Jeff on November 15, 1997 at 17:43:59: Following the Williamsburg Bridge incident, it became obvious that although the TA had upgraded the rolling stock so that it would operate at greater speed, the signal system which was, for the most part, using 1930s technology, was not capable of protecting trains traveling at those higher speeds. It was decided that because of the time it would take to upgrade the signal system, the rolling stock would need to be slowed. Every car in the TA fleet has been modified so that their controllers can not run beyond the 100% field shunting position, effectively limiting the speed of all cars to approximately 40 - 45 MPH on level, tangent track. The modification has had the desired effect and then some. Recently I was on a northbound N train (R-68A equipment). As we reached the bottom of the 6oth St. tunnel, we were doing 49 MPH. However, with the train in the multiple position, when we reached Queensboro Plaza Station, we were doing all of 17 MPH. I agree, I miss the speed too.
        
        Subject: Re: Slow Subways
        Message Number: 759642
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Slow Subways posted by Steve on November 15, 1997 at 21:22:07: What a typical burecratic "solution"! By reducing available power, they have rendered the trains less able to accelerate, and it sounds like, in certain adverse grade situations, unable to maintain a steady speed. This brings on the old Truck Lane scenario, where each given truck, depending on state of tune, available gear ratios, and load carried, has a different maximum speed that it can maintain on an upgrade. This leads to all the pulling out and passing, only to be re-passed, that plagues truck lanes. Only subway trains can't pull out to pass, so the train that starts losing momentum causes trains behind it to slow, and then they are unable to regain momentum as well. To put it into NASCAR terms, the NY subways have become a "Restrictor Plate" race.
        
        Subject: Re: Slow Subways
        Message Number: 759669
        Posted by: Andrew Byler
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Slow Subways posted by Gary Jacobi on November 17, 1997 at 11:37:16: As a railroad engineer, I find this sort of solution patently ridiculous. I worked on the project to modernize the Broad St. Subway signalling system in Philadelphia a couple of years ago. As I've mentioned before, the speed on this line had recently been *increased* from 50 mph to 55 mph for the local tracks and 70 mph for the express tracks. And this was well before we had gotten close to getting a new signalling system installed. Based on the logic that high speeds are unsafe, 45 mph is not enough of a reduction - we should head for 30 or even 20 mph. There was a famous paper published in MIT's joke scientific journal - the Journal Of Irrepeducable Results which took the logic of the 55 mph speed limit for cars to its final extreme. Using rigorous analysis of frequency of wrecks and spacing of cars, it was concluded that 6 mph was the optimal speed (in other words, the speed of a horse and buggy). 0 mph was dangerous because the cars got to close as they all tend to congregate in parking lots then. Subways are built with supposed fail-safe mechanisms in the signalling system - namely trip-cocks at red signals. This leaves areas under restriction - curves and such as the only other locations of concern. Speed is generally limited at these places by having the signal system display yellow or even red signals as the train approaches the restriction until it is certain that it has slowed down sufficiently (this is the usual reason for the proliferation of red signals which can sometimes be seen out ahead from the subway fan's front window). Of course, the opitmist in me is forgetting that everything is different in New York, and none of the rules of the rest of the country apply here. No wonder the taxis prolifierate while the rest of us fume at the slow service (I had noticed a marked slow down as well - it takes forever to get from the upper east side to downtown now). Andy Byler
        
        Subject: Re: Slow Subways
        Message Number: 759916
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:59:12 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Slow Subways
        Message Number: 759933
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:59:48 1997

Thread title: Re: Forest Hills SIRR Station (759510)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:52:47 1997, by Nick

Subject: Re: Forest Hills SIRR Station
Message Number: 759510
Posted by: Nick
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:47 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: Forest Hills SIRR Station posted by Hank Eisnstein on November 17, 1997 at 18:56:08: I wouldn't mind if the Forest hills/Continental Ave. subway station got renovated. It's in ok shape, but gets lots of use since its a major transfer station. The E and F make an express stop there, and the R and G begin/terminate there as well. It deserves a renovation!-NICK
- Subject: Re: Forest Hills SIRR Station
- Message Number: 759533
- Posted by: Bryan
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:07 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Forest Hills SIRR Station posted by Hank Eisnstein on November 17, 1997 at 18:56:08: I totally ment to say LIRR...it was late and i was tired.
  - Subject: Re: Forest Hills SIRR Station
  - Message Number: 759552
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:22 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Forest Hills SIRR Station posted by Bryan on November 18, 1997 at 16:50:46: The Forest Hills LIRR station is undergoing a major renovation. Progress has been slowed because the existing structures are a designated landmark and any changes have to be approved.
    - Subject: Forest Hills SIRR Station
    - Message Number: 759654
    - Posted by: Bryan
    - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:46 1997
      
      i read a while ago that there is a major renovation planned at SIRR/Forest Hills Is this true and what will be involved....from the pictures i've seen,its a pretty dreary station
      - Subject: Re: Forest Hills SIRR Station
      - Message Number: 759657
      - Posted by: Hank Eisnstein
      - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:48 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Forest Hills SIRR Station posted by Bryan on November 17, 1997 at 16:51:36: What SIRR Forest Hills Station? It's either LIRR, or Dongan Hills. And since Dongan Hills was redon a few years ago, I gess you mean LIRR? -Hank

Thread title: Old Metro-North Cars? (759513)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:52:49 1997, by Nick

Subject: Old Metro-North Cars?
Message Number: 759513
Posted by: Nick
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:49 1997

I was walking over the bridge in Greenpoint, Brooklyn (I forget the name) a little while ago and saw a yard filled with old trains that had red or blue stripes on them. Are these the old fleet of Metro-North Cars? Speaking of Metro-Norht cars, are there any new cars in metro-Norths future-particularly on the New Haven (red stripe) line. I know a few years ago some M-6 cars were purchased for the Harlem and Hudson lines. The NH line cars are different because they have the "claws" on the roof to pick up electricity from wires, instead of the ground.-NICK
- Subject: Re: Old Metro-North Cars?
- Message Number: 759521
- Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:56 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Old Metro-North Cars? posted by Nick on November 18, 1997 at 10:17:48: :I was walking over the bridge in Greenpoint, Brooklyn (I forget the :name) a little while ago and saw a yard filled with old trains that had :red or blue stripes on them. Are these the old fleet of Metro-North :Cars? Hmmm.... you sure it wasn't an LIRR diesel yard? :) But seriously, I'm not sure why any MN stuff would appear down there. BTW, does anyone know about the m-1's / mp-70's that have beeen appearing by the Sunnyside yard??? Are these scrap?? Are they starting to junk M-1s already??? :Speaking of Metro-Norht cars, are there any new cars in metro-Norths :future-particularly on the New Haven (red stripe) line. No, AFIK, they are rebuilding the M-2s I think. Actually, the M-6s (see below) are rather recent, and holding up nice (by M-x standards at least) The 4s are total crap - bouncy, flickering lights on some, ominous humming noises. :I know a few :years ago some M-6 cars were purchased for the Harlem and Hudson lines. No, those are M-1a and M-3 cars. They are pretty much identical to the LIRRs crap (but their styling is still slick looking - they look like a design of the 90's rather than 60's {yeah yeah, but the M-1s came onto the LIRR around 69-70}) :The NH line cars are different because they have the "claws" on the roof :to pick up electricity from wires, instead of the ground.-NICK Those are called pantagraphs, although given Conrail's (???) problems when the 2's first started running... Actually, the m-2/4/6s are just as able to run on DC as the others, although they tend to be sluggish. I believe they are pretty much M-1s with a transformer/scr/filter setup to supply 750v DC from the 12-17k AC line...

Thread title: safety and New Years Eve (759515)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:52:51 1997, by Matthew Nagel

Subject: safety and New Years Eve
Message Number: 759515
Posted by: Matthew Nagel
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:51 1997

A friend and I are going to NYC for New Years Eve. Obviously we will watch the ball drop, but I was wondering if it would be safe to take the subway from Manhattan to Queens (where our hotel is) at 1 or 2 in the morning? If not, what other means would you recommend? Thanks for the info.
- Subject: Re: safety and New Years Eve
- Message Number: 759516
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:52 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]safety and New Years Eve posted by Matthew Nagel on November 18, 1997 at 10:46:03: Well, the whole city and all the trains will probably be deserted at that time of night. NOT! There will be about a million other people taking the subway home that night with plenty of extra police presence. It's safe on any night. Moreso on New Years Eve. I think people really need to get over this fear of NYC/the subway. You have more chance of getting hit by a car crossing Broadway than being a victim of a crime in the subway.
  - Subject: Re: safety and New Years Eve
  - Message Number: 759520
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:55 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]safety and New Years Eve posted by Matthew Nagel on November 18, 1997 at 10:46:03: The ride back to Queens might be the highlight of the evening! I rode sober about four or five times in the sixties, and the atmosphere on the train was absolutely convivial. Many of the returning partygoers are not regular subway riders, and don't know the "rules" about ignoring fellow riders. I suppose this might sound like a ripe field for criminals, but I think they stay away because a large group of folks feeling good is bound to contain a few potential "heros", and they would likely be challenged by the group if they messed with anybody.
    - Subject: Re: safety and New Years Eve
    - Message Number: 759530
    - Posted by: Subway Man
    - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:04 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: safety and New Years Eve posted by Gary Jacobi on November 18, 1997 at 12:12:15: I would totally agree that the ride back on the subway is the best part of the evening! I went to see the ball drop last year and took the N train back to Queens. On our car we had this one drunk guy who was really funny, making fun of almost all the passengers and almost every ethnic group you can think of! But everybody was in a good mood and we all were rolling on the floor laughing at this guy. So I would not worry about being on the subway at such a late hour on New Years.
      - Subject: Re: safety and New Years Eve
      - Message Number: 759568
      - Posted by: Nick
      - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:35 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: safety and New Years Eve posted by David Pirmann on November 18, 1997 at 11:34:48: An estimated half million people watch the ball drop, and many of them take the train home. A lot of these riders will be liquered up, and the NYPD knows it. There will be heavy police presence, so don't worry about it. If you want to worry about something, be aware of pickpockets when you are in TIMES SQUARE, but relax when your on the train.-NICK

Thread title: Re: Slow Subways Signal Placement (759517)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:52:53 1997, by Lou

Subject: Re: Slow Subways Signal Placement
Message Number: 759517
Posted by: Lou
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:53 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Slow Subways posted by Andrew Byler on November 17, 1997 at 22:42:46: I think the finding in the Willy B accident was the signals were too close to one another to allow the train to stop (when tripping) at the speed it was moving. Instead of making the blocks bigger or even changing the timers on the Grade Timers they slow everybody down.

Thread title: Re: MTA Paint schemes & LOGOS (759519)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:52:54 1997, by Lou

Subject: Re: MTA Paint schemes & LOGOS
Message Number: 759519
Posted by: Lou
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:54 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: MTA Paint schemes posted by Wayne Johnson on November 17, 1997 at 22:24:02: How much did MTA spend in changing ALL the logos for EVERY system they have oversite for?? MTA Bridges and Tunnels, MTA LIRR, MTA Metro North, MTA Subways, MTA Staten Island Railway.... Uniforms TOO...WHY?? Why? I just got to look at every utility bill and I know my money is going to the MTA. Who told em I would forget that if I didn't see it every time I droped a token/ticket/or Ez-Passed???

Thread title: Re: IRT #7 line (759522)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:52:57 1997, by Tim Speer

Subject: Re: IRT #7 line
Message Number: 759522
Posted by: Tim Speer
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:52:57 1997

In Reply to: [7]IRT #7 line posted by Frankie on November 17, 1997 at 18:19:38: I could be mistaken, but I seem to remember that the Steinway Tunnel, through which the "7" train passes under the East River, was not originally intended to hook up with the Flushing Line. In fact, it may not have been built for the IRT at all! The track from the Steinway Tunnel needed to connect with the (now demolished) tracks from the 59th street Bridge and the BMT 60th street tunnel at Queensboro Plaza, as both IRT and BMT trains ran on the Astoria and Flushing lines as part of the Dual Contracts. My guess is that the curvy section of track you mention was the cheapest way to utilize the Steinway Tunnel and hook into existing service. As for the extension for a fourth track, sorry -- can't help you.
- Subject: Re: IRT #7 line
- Message Number: 759529
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:03 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]IRT #7 line posted by Frankie on November 17, 1997 at 18:19:38: The track to which you refer was originally built when Queensboro Plaza was twice as large as it is now. That structure supported a turnaround where a train coming over the bridge from 2d Avenue would run up that way and turn around. An older softcover book about NY Elevateds speaks of the QBP complex and has pictures describing the layout. I used to wonder about that track, too when I rode the line growing up. You can also see 'stringers' on the West side of the QBP complex, leading up to the bridge. Routing through that area was somewhat complex and this book, if you can find it, will offer the details you need.
  - Subject: Re: IRT #7 line
  - Message Number: 759557
  - Posted by: Albert
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:26 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: IRT #7 line posted by Charles Fiori on November 18, 1997 at 16:10:40: I, also used to wonder about that wooden track next to the local (Flushing-bound) track was, when I used to go to high school right there. Now I finally Know the reason.
    - Subject: IRT #7 line
    - Message Number: 759656
    - Posted by: Frankie
    - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:47 1997
      
      1)The #7 line in Queens( around Queensboro Plaza), has a lot of turns and sharp curves. Why was the line built like this? It reduces the speed of trains and causes excessive wear on the wheels and tracks. 2)On the #7 line, after the express track forms(after the LIRR Sunnyside yard), there is what looks like a extension for another track on the right side of the Flushing bound local track. Was another track suppose to be build here making the line a four track system? If so the plan must have been objected long ago.

Thread title: Re: Old Philadelphia Commuter Trains (759537)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:53:10 1997, by Gary Jacobi

Subject: Re: Old Philadelphia Commuter Trains
Message Number: 759537
Posted by: Gary Jacobi
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:10 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Old Philadelphia Commuter Trains posted by Philip Nasadowski on November 17, 1997 at 19:31:46: If you are referring to Port Jeff on the LIRR, I doubt it because it is well beyond the electrified limits of the system, and doesn't have much storage track.
- Subject: Re: Old Philadelphia Commuter Trains
- Message Number: 759593
- Posted by: Bobw
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:56 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: Old Philadelphia Commuter Trains posted by Andrew Byler on November 17, 1997 at 22:27:33: You are probably right about the dates that the Blues remained in service. However, there were only 38 Blues, converted from the old Reading MU stock in the mid-60's (quite a few of these were combines - these could be easily recognized by the picture window, which stood out at the ends in contrast to the old narrow windows). The green cars were actually old unconverted cars. Many of the Blues received the SEPTA red/blue stripe scheme toward the end of their careers. To the best of my knowledge, none of the "greens" ever received this scheme, although a handful of MP-54's did. After SEPTA consolidated the commuter lines in 1977 (but before the opening of the Commuter Tunnel and unification of the Pennsy and Reading sides in 1984), many of the Blues were transferred over to the Pennsy side, where they could usually be found on the Media line. On the Reading side, they had no usual assignment. The Commuter Tunnel contributed to their demise due to the grades at either end, which began to take a toll on the old motors. I have been told that this was a problem before the Tunnel when the cars were moved to the Media line and this could explain why they were concentrated on one line. After the Tunnel opened, they could be found on R3 (Media-West Trenton at the time).
  - Subject: Old Philadelphia Commuter Trains
  - Message Number: 759659
  - Posted by: Timothy
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:50 1997
    
    I've heard that some of the old Pennsylvania Railroad MP54 commuter trains have been saved, and are stored at Wayne Junction in Philadelphia. Is there any way someone here can confirm this? Because if that is true, I'm hoping to go there sometime this week to photograph the old trains. Also, Does anyone know of any other areas within Philadelphia, where old commuter trains may be found? Thanks.
    - Subject: Re: Old Philadelphia Commuter Trains
    - Message Number: 759661
    - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
    - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:51 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Old Philadelphia Commuter Trains posted by Timothy on November 17, 1997 at 19:21:01: Hey, add me to that list!! I *love* the MP-54's. Speaking of which, does anyone know if the rumour I heard that there's one at Port Jefferson is true???
      - Subject: Re: Old Philadelphia Commuter Trains
      - Message Number: 759666
      - Posted by: Bobw
      - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:55 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Old Philadelphia Commuter Trains posted by Timothy on November 17, 1997 at 19:21:01: I am aware of some of the old Reading "Blueliners" being saved and stored at Wayne Jct yard, but I was not aware that any MP-54's (which were generally older and in much worse shape than the Reading MU's) are still on the SEPTA system. Some of these are preserved on the Wilmington & Western steam railroad in Delaware. The Blues, built for Reading's electrification in 1931 and modernized in the mid-60's, survived until the opening of the Center City Commuter Tunnel in 1985. Some occasionally picked up assignments after that, but they haven't been in regular service since then. The unmodernized Reading MU's, and the MP-54's (many 15+ years older than the Reading cars), were pretty much displaced by the Silverliner IV's in '74-75. Wayne Jct Yard is not easy to photograph, so good luck. Security is tight and there is some inside storage so the cars may not be visible. One of the better places to photograph is no longer available - this is now the site of SEPTA's Midvale bus garage, which is alongside the yard, but the garage itself is heavily fortified as well.
        
        Subject: Re: Old Philadelphia Commuter Trains
        Message Number: 759668
        Posted by: Andrew Byler
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Old Philadelphia Commuter Trains posted by Bobw on November 17, 1997 at 20:22:05: Actually, the Blueliners soldiered on well past the opening of the Center City Tunnel into the late 80's. They finally met their demise when SEPTA ordered its 7 AEM-7's and 35 Comets. Another misapprehension is their color. Blueliners were not merely blue, but also green, red and orange. I personally remember seeing six car trains of them with all of the colors in consist. If you would like to see them at the Wayne Jct. shops, I suggest using the north end of the low level (southbound) platform, or else watching from a passing Chesnut Hill East train. Also, although the Silverliner IV's displaced many of the MP-54's and Blueliners, they were kept in service in large numbers until the very unfortunate commuter rail cutbacks of 1981, from which most commuter authorities have never recovered. In Philadelphia, these cutbacks, plus the subsequent strike in 1983 served to decimate ridership from 125,000 per day to 60,000. It is now back up to around 90,000 and bounces around periodically up towards 100,000. To give some impression of the magnitude of losses: Chesnut Hill West, 12,000 to 5,500; Chesnut Hill East, 9,500 to 4,000; West Chester, 17,000 to 8,000; Doylestown, 12,000 to 9,000; etc. - on around the system. In Chicago, METRA lost 1/3 of its riders in that one year alone, and has never regained those levels. If the death of the downtown, and the birth of the suburban office park is ever dated - that is the year it happened. Andy Byler

Thread title: Re: MetroCard Vs. Token:Speaking of ..... (759538)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:53:11 1997, by Lou rom Middletown

Subject: Re: MetroCard Vs. Token:Speaking of .....
Message Number: 759538
Posted by: Lou rom Middletown
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:11 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: MetroCard Vs. Token posted by David Pirmann on November 18, 1997 at 17:16:00: Does anyone out there know how exact the 2 hour transfer is??? The few times I have used it, it seems to be a little OVER two hours Any comments?
- Subject: Re: MetroCard Vs. Token:Speaking of .....
- Message Number: 759590
- Posted by: Eric B
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:54 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: MetroCard Vs. Token:Speaking of ..... posted by Lou rom Middletown on November 18, 1997 at 18:41:57: It's 2 hours and 18 minutes.

Thread title: Re: IRT #7 line: Steinway question (759539)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:53:11 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: Re: IRT #7 line: Steinway question
Message Number: 759539
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:11 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: IRT #7 line posted by Tim Speer on November 18, 1997 at 12:44:35: The Steinway tunnels were originally built for streetcars back close to the turn of the century.They were built by the Steinway Piano family to connect their original factory in LIC with Grand Central. They were bought(?) by the city and included in the Dual Contracts at a fairly late time in the plans. The question I always had about the Flushing Line is that when the BMT and IRT "jointly operated" the Astoria and this line - how were monies divided, and who operated the towers,etc. This is something I've never seen in any book.
- Subject: Re: IRT #7 line: Steinway question
- Message Number: 759555
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:25 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: IRT #7 line: Steinway question posted by Lou from Middletown on November 18, 1997 at 18:49:26: I don't know how the monies were divided but the operation of the line today gives a pretty strong indication as to how the line was run. Today on the #7 line, the train crews are A division (IRT) crews. However, the line supervision, and the signal system are B division (BMT). The #7 cars are the only IRT cars with the trip-cocks on the BMT side.
  - Subject: Re: IRT #7 line: Steinway question
  - Message Number: 759562
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:30 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: IRT #7 line: Steinway question posted by Lou from Middletown on November 18, 1997 at 18:49:26: I have an interesting article about this that I scanned but haven't really made available yet. If you want to look at it, see [8]The Steinway Tunnels.
    - Subject: Re: IRT #7 line: Steinway question
    - Message Number: 759573
    - Posted by: Charles Fiori
    - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:39 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: IRT #7 line: Steinway question posted by David Pirmann on November 19, 1997 at 09:23:54: David, once again, thank you. As the #7 is the line on which I cut my teeth as a subway fan, any additional info on the ins and outs are always appreciated. I can remember wearing shorts in the summer and getting imprints on my legs from the rattan seats on the R12/14s, and also when the equipment changed to doors with oval windows (vs. the 2 circles) so I could finally look out!!
      - Subject: Re: IRT #7 line: Steinway question
      - Message Number: 759574
      - Posted by: David Pirmann
      - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: IRT #7 line: Steinway question posted by Charles Fiori on November 19, 1997 at 14:37:02: No Problemo. I'm hoping that article will be the first of a series of old ERA stuff on the site. I'm trying to iron out some permissions details, so to speak. In the mean time, take a look at the diagram of the Grand Central Steinway station layout. It's fascinating especially if you know what the station is like today.
        
        Subject: Re: IRT #7 line: Steinway question
        Message Number: 759902
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:58:37 1997

Thread title: Re: overhead electric trains on MNRR hudson line?RDCs (759540)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:53:12 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: Re: overhead electric trains on MNRR hudson line?RDCs
Message Number: 759540
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:12 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: overhead electric trains on MNRR hudson line? posted by Andrewh Huie on November 16, 1997 at 01:54:43: I believe the last place the RDCs were used in this area was on the NJT-MN Port Jervis Line were they used in shuttle service between Suffern and Port. I think they pulled them out around '88-but dont quote me. As somebody else said-s-l-o-w-w-w.

Thread title: Re:"Streets of Fire" scenes-"St Elsewhere" (759541)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:53:13 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: Re:"Streets of Fire" scenes-"St Elsewhere"
Message Number: 759541
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:13 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway/El Scenes In The Movie "Streets Of Fire" posted by Frank Gatazka on November 17, 1997 at 07:42:41: I get TVLand at my house, and they show "St. Elsewhere", where the establishing shot of the hospital shows an elevated line next to it. I've heard that this el no longer exists in Boston,if so where was this building located???Thanks
- Subject: Re:"Streets of Fire" scenes-"St Elsewhere"
- Message Number: 759560
- Posted by: Frank Gatazka
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:29 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re:"Streets of Fire" scenes-"St Elsewhere" posted by Lou from Middletown on November 18, 1997 at 19:02:34: The building that was used as the edifice for "St. Elsewhere" is near Northampton Street and Washington Street in the South End of Boston. Although the El is gone since 1987, the building remains.

Thread title: Cincinnati Subway (759542)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:53:14 1997, by Ron Rice

Subject: Cincinnati Subway
Message Number: 759542
Posted by: Ron Rice
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:14 1997

Anyone have information on this incomplete project? I have some info from "Cincinnati Streeetcars", "Electric Lines March-April 1970" and a few other documents (including the Beeler report in "Traction Heritage"--don't know the date). I lived in Cincy from 1946 to 1962. Remember seeing the portals while driving the Interstate to Cincinnati from Lockland. If what I have may be of help to you, please let me know. Looking forward to hearing from my "infected" traction/subway fans.

Thread title: Re: Stations (Chicago version) (759543)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:53:14 1997, by Joe M

Subject: Re: Stations (Chicago version)
Message Number: 759543
Posted by: Joe M
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:14 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Stations (Chicago version) posted by Ed Sachs on November 17, 1997 at 10:29:35: The entrance from the L also worked for the North Shore since they operated over the L through the loop
- Subject: Re: Stations (Chicago version)
- Message Number: 759580
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:45 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Stations (Chicago version) posted by Ed Sachs on November 17, 1997 at 10:29:35: Closest el stop to a Metra terminal is the station at LaSalle/Van Buren. The Rock Island terminal is right downstairs, but there is no direct passageway. Before the sorely needed reconstruction of Northwestern Station, now named something else, there was a walkway through the terminal, where the re-installed Track 1 now resides. One could walk all the way to the Lake/Dan Ryan (then, now the "Green Line") station at "Clinton/Northwest Passage". That pathway no longer exists and one becomes subject to the elements for at least a part of the walk. It was great for me if I missed my CNW West Line train, I could just hop the 'el'.
  - Subject: Re: Stations (Chicago version)
  - Message Number: 759640
  - Posted by: Ed Sachs
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:34 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Stations posted by Al on November 06, 1997 at 14:02:41: In Chicago's loop, there is an entrance to Marshall Field's from the mezzanine level of the State/Washington (Red Line) subway station. This station also connects to an underground "pedway" that also connects to the Blue line subway at Dearborn/Washington and reaches to City Hall/County Bldg. on the west and the Metra/South Shore Randolph St. terminal on the east. There was at one time a second-floor entrance to Marshall Field's from the Wabash/Randolph L (elevated, for those of you not familiar with Chicago-ese) station, but that entrance no longer exists. Also, one of the entrances to the Merchandise Mart L station is in the 2nd floor of the Merchanidise Mart building (the first two floors of which are a shopping mall). There also some office buildings with subway entrances. One that comes to mind is the First National Bank of Chicago Bldg with an entrance from the lobby to the Dearborn/Monroe (Blue Line) subway station. Unfortunately, there are no longer any direct passageways from the Rail stations to L stations, except for the pedway mentioned above.
    - Subject: Re: Stations (Chicago version)
    - Message Number: 759890
    - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
    - Date: Sun Nov 30 10:58:11 1997
      - Subject: Re: Stations (Chicago version)
      - Message Number: 759893
      - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
      - Date: Sun Nov 30 10:58:20 1997

Thread title: Re: Junius Street connection (was: Platform Access) (759545)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:53:16 1997, by Daniel

Subject: Re: Junius Street connection (was: Platform Access)
Message Number: 759545
Posted by: Daniel
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:16 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: Platform Access (was: Stations) posted by Bob Sklar on November 18, 1997 at 15:21:33: With the 3 and the L in Brooklyn, I believe that the particular transfer was aided by the LIRR station that was located either at the Livonia Avenue station or maybe at New Lots Avenue. But, this was when the Bay Ridge Branch was in existance...

Thread title: Does anyone outthere have the electronic desination reading list for the R44 (759548)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:53:19 1997, by .

Subject: Does anyone outthere have the electronic desination reading list for the R44
Message Number: 759548
Posted by: .
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:19 1997

Thread title: Bring back the rail option in the MOM study by NJ Transit. (759549)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:53:20 1997, by Mike

Subject: Bring back the rail option in the MOM study by NJ Transit.
Message Number: 759549
Posted by: Mike
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:20 1997

I think NJ Transit should consider bringing back the rail option in the MOM study that would operate between Monmouth Junction on the Northeast Corridor to Lakewood & forget the NIMBY oppostion in Middlesex County. It would relieve bus & traffic conjection along Route 9 & the Garden State Parkway, reduce air pollution & bring new life to residents & businesses in both Monmouth & Ocean Counties.
- Subject: Re: Bring back the rail option in the MOM study by NJ Transit.
- Message Number: 759561
- Posted by: Mike K
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:29 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Bring back the rail option in the MOM study by NJ Transit. posted by Mike on November 18, 1997 at 21:45:20: Easy for you to say. I agree with you 150 percent, but the NIMBY-ists are loud, vocal, and willing to go to court. Their concerns: the usual crap. Too much noise, possibility of crime, and extra traffic in the area of the train stations. And these people are true NIMBY-ists. One of the towns this would affect also opposes a freeway from the New Jersey Turnpike to Route 1. It would create too much traffic, they claim. The town in question, South Brunswick, is a perfect example of suburban sprawl. If you live in this town and don't have a car, you're dead. The Monmouth Junction train station, BTW, would also be in this town.

Thread title: Re: Forest Hills *LIRR* station (759553)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:53:23 1997, by Andrew Huie

Subject: Re: Forest Hills *LIRR* station
Message Number: 759553
Posted by: Andrew Huie
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:23 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: Forest Hills SIRR Station posted by Nick on November 18, 1997 at 10:01:20: Uh, no, he meant the railroad station, not the subway station nearby. I agree that the former seriously needs renovation - last time I visited almost a year ago 2 of the 3 stairs to the eastbound platform were virtually collapsing and unusable, with chunks of rock actually breaking off the station structure. The 3rd stairway was only marginally better. There was also an apparent underpass or space under the station which is completely boarded up. The station is architecturally interesting in that it matches, and is actually connected to, the adjoining Forest Hills Gardens, but the difference in quality of maintenance between the buildings and station is striking.
- Subject: Re: Forest Hills *LIRR* station
- Message Number: 759565
- Posted by: Nick
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:32 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: Forest Hills *LIRR* station posted by Andrew Huie on November 18, 1997 at 22:34:46: I know he meant the LIRR syation, but I was also asking about the subway station at the same time.-NICK

Thread title: Re: Stations, NY,Chgo (759556)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:53:25 1997, by david vartanoff

Subject: Re: Stations, NY,Chgo
Message Number: 759556
Posted by: david vartanoff
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:25 1997

In the Loop, :a Salle St. Sta was accessinle from the fare mezzanine. The undercrossing existed at least through 1970 at Astor and late evenings the downtown side was gated so it was necessary. Unfortunately it was also a public urinal without drain or flush. I believe 28th st also had an undercrossing evidence is still there.

Thread title: Re: Does anyone outthere have the electronic desination reading list for the (759563)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:53:31 1997, by .

Subject: Re: Does anyone outthere have the electronic desination reading list for the
Message Number: 759563
Posted by: .
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:31 1997
- Subject: Re: Does anyone outthere have the electronic desination reading list for the
- Message Number: 759589
- Posted by: .
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:53 1997

Thread title: Everybody Read This! (759566)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:53:33 1997, by Adam

Subject: Everybody Read This!
Message Number: 759566
Posted by: Adam
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:33 1997

Hey everybody! I know that this may sound like a crazy idea but I have been thinking about it for a while. A few years ago I was thumbing through the Guinness Book of World Records and discovered that there was a record for the shortest time to ride every line of the NYC Subway system. I haven't looked at it in a while but I think that the record was around 21 hours or something like that. Well, ever since I read that I have always wanted to break that record. But breaking this record would involve a lot of planning, a vast knowledge of each route, which is the best way to go, etc. So, unable to take on this mammoth project myself, I was looking for people who would also want to do this with me, and I figured that this was the best place to see if anyone would be interested in going in together, breaking this record, getting famous, and having a lot of fun in the process! So if anyone is interested in doing this post a message here and maybe we can form a team and get our names in the Guinnes Book of World Records! Thanks guys! --Adam
- Subject: Re: Everybody Read This!
- Message Number: 759569
- Posted by: Nick
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:36 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Everybody Read This! posted by Adam on November 19, 1997 at 12:35:46: I'd love to help out! But I'd need to do it when I'm not in school. Could we plan this by Christmas vacation? Fire off an e-mail to me, and we'll talk more....NICK
  - Subject: Re: Everybody Read This!
  - Message Number: 759582
  - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:46 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: Everybody Read This! posted by Nick on November 19, 1997 at 12:48:23: I'd love to do this! I've wondered what the record was.....email me when you've got plans ironed in. nixon@quuxuum.org -hANK
    - Subject: Re: Everybody Read This!
    - Message Number: 759586
    - Posted by: Adam
    - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:50 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Everybody Read This! posted by Nick on November 19, 1997 at 12:48:23: The same applies for me, as I am in school as well. If we could all get together around the end of December and beginning of January to do this that would be really cool. Also, if everybody can just post to here instead of e-mailing me, it would be a lot easier to coordinate so everybody can see what's going on. Finally, one thing that we need to find out is how exactly one should go about breaking a world record, like how to make it official and all of that business. Thanks!
      - Subject: Re: Everybody Read This!
      - Message Number: 759588
      - Posted by: Nick
      - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Everybody Read This! posted by Adam on November 19, 1997 at 18:44:21: I'll definitly do it if my parents allow me (i'm 18 and a high school senior) Somehow I have to prove to them that this is for real, and that I'm not just meeting some "freak" on the net (i believe Adam, but my parents may not) Any suggestions on how to approach this? Also, remember that NYC is busy over the holidays, but I'm sure we can still pull it off then.-NICK
        
        Subject: Re: Everybody Read This!
        Message Number: 759592
        Posted by: Fernando Perez
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:56 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Everybody Read This! posted by Hank Eisenstein on November 19, 1997 at 18:24:30: I got my wife's permission! We need to have a couple of meetings to iron out the route and we need to contact a verifible source to make it a public record. Also, we need a list of public restrooms and shower facilities since it will take over 20 hours to do!
        
        Subject: Re: Everybody Read This!
        Message Number: 759594
        Posted by: Koi
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Everybody Read This! posted by Adam on November 19, 1997 at 18:44:21: I certianly would love to be a part of this! I've always wanted to do this every since I was around 14 or 15 years old (I'm now 26) but I wasn't allowed to do this sort of thing until I moved out on my own (that was after I had graduated college a few years ago). Actually, I tried to ride the subway in the shortest time possible on the weekend of 30 Aug to 1 Sept 1996 but I wasn't able to cover all subway lines during that time period (I was in the system for slightly more than 48 hours before I had to go back home). Koi
        
        Subject: Re: Everybody Read This!
        Message Number: 759595
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Everybody Read This! posted by Adam on November 19, 1997 at 12:35:46: Heck, I'd like to join the bunch myself! It sure would be a lot of fun, not to mention an experience to talk about. One thing, all the track work and service diversions being done these days might make it hard to set any records.
        
        Subject: Re: Everybody Read This!
        Message Number: 759596
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: Everybody Read This! posted by Fernando Perez on November 19, 1997 at 19:58:34: Someone with some programming experience might want to shove the schedules into a database and have a computer churn out possible routes. I won't be joining you guys :-) but here are my thoughts on it. YMMV. hth. 1. For it to be really valid, in my opinion the criteria for "riding the whole system" is to take local trains-- you must be on a train that stops at every station. No express runs thru stations unless you plan to also stop there on a local. 2. Pick a weekday not a weekend - more service is running and more frequently. 3. Since you will have to double back quite a bit, plan to use express trains to double back where possible. E.g. Ride a local #6 out to Pelham in the morning rush but an express 6 back to save some time. Also doable on the #7, #2/5 in the Bronx, etc. Plan to do these sections during rush hour but don't forget to ride a local for the all-stations rule. 4. Start at an outlying terminal that is quite a distance from the next transfer point. The Bronx IRT lines seem the best for this. This way you save yourself one double-back on the clock. 5. Where lines "loop" plan to come in on one and out the other. Obvious I know, but bear with me. It's important for the route planning. For instance, the J to Jamaica Center, out on the E. Then the short piece of the F between Van Wyck and 179th, then back on the F to Continental, where you have to switch to a local anyway. The Stillwell Av-Atlantic Ave section can be done in two loops (out-in out-in). (For instance out on the D, back in on the B, out on the N, and back in on the F or reverse. The F has to be the start or the end since it doesn't meet at Dekalb/Atlantic). 6. Any place where there are two local services (G/R Queens Blvd, J/M Broadway El, etc) only one needs to be ridden to qualify for the all-stations rule. 7. Transfer stations need to be ridden thru more than once if there are multiple distinct service platforms (where "platforms" means the platforms in both directions on a particular *line*). E.g. you have to ride thru "Times Square" on the A, C, or E, on the 1-2-3 or 9, on the N/R, on the 7, and the S. But, Hoyt-Schermerhorn need only be ridden thru on the A or C or G but not both the A/C and G. And you needn't ride thru a station in both directions. Stopping on one "side" of the station is suffieent for the all-stations rule. 8. Take a full set of maps and timetables (print 'em out from the MTA web site.) Get a list of all the stations and a clipboard and mark off the time that your train stops at each one for record keeping. Have more than one person do this for verification if possible. Write to the MTA ahead of time and ask if they have any information about past attempts- they might have some useful information, and they might even help you -- by allowing you to use private restrooms or something. Also, just to let them know you're doing it you'll have some paperwork in case anyone asks you what you're doing :-) WRite the Guiness people and ask them for the records of the current record, so to speak. You need to make sure you satisfy THEIR criteria if you're serious on doing it. 9. In practical terms... Food: Bring it. Get a bunch of those small igloo things. You'll need food, snacks, drinks. Lots of water. The steel dust is nasty after a while. Moist towelettes. You're not going to find public showers (since you can't leave the system during your attempt--- remember, ONE FARE!) and the restrooms you find won't be very tidy. :-) 10. Some other ideas. Avoid doubling back on slow lines e.g. the J over the Williamsburgh Bridge or the L between Manhattan and Brooklyn. 11. Look at the [8]Route maps by time of day to help you know what services are shuttles or changed at night (e.g. F-B-Q weirdness going to 63rd St.) Look at the MTA web site for service disruption info. There's a question about what to do if you are on a train at night and it is going to skip some stations due to construction-- I think you should plan around these as much as possible... Try not to break the all-station rule. If you do skip stations, try to find a flyer about the service disruption to "prove" what happened. Sounds like fun. Perhaps someone could bring a cellular phone and phone updates into the web site. :-) -Dave
        
        Subject: Re: Everybody Read This!
        Message Number: 759876
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:57:35 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Everybody Read This!
        Message Number: 759877
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:57:38 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Everybody Read This!
        Message Number: 759895
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:58:24 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Everybody Read This!
        Message Number: 759897
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:58:28 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Everybody Read This!
        Message Number: 759900
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:58:33 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Everybody Read This!
        Message Number: 759901
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:58:35 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Everybody Read This!
        Message Number: 759903
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:58:39 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Everybody Read This!
        Message Number: 759907
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:58:47 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Everybody Read This!
        Message Number: 759924
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:59:31 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Everybody Read This!
        Message Number: 759939
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:00:00 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Everybody Read This!
        Message Number: 759952
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:00:36 1997

Thread title: R110 Sound Files (759567)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:53:34 1997, by Nick

Subject: R110 Sound Files
Message Number: 759567
Posted by: Nick
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:34 1997

Does anyone have a sound file of the R110 door closing sounds. I.E. ding-dong "Please watch the closing doors" bee-bee-be-bee. If anyone has a sound like this, please post it. thanks-NICK

Thread title: IND Second System (long post) (759570)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:53:37 1997, by Bobby

Subject: IND Second System (long post)
Message Number: 759570
Posted by: Bobby
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:37 1997

OK, I have lurked here for a long time, and I will post some interesting information Ive found. Hopefully, I wont get spammed in the process. I apologize for the length of this posting, but I imagine it will be of interest to those who frequent this site. Having read about the unbuilt IND Second System, and having been particularly intrigued by the enormous never-used station shell at S. 4th St. Brooklyn (boy, Id love to see that!), I went to my local library and looked up the New York Times from September 16, 1929, the day the plans for the Second System were first made public. This was a front page story, and carries a significant amount of detail about this project. Interestingly, it also states that the total projected cost would be $ 438,000,000. Thats not a lot by todays standards, but bear in mind that the entire IND First System cost $ 338,000,000. In addition, the article states that the $ 438,000,000 does NOT include acquisition of private property, financing costs (e.g. the cost of issuing bonds), equipment costs and other additional items. Total cost was estimated at $ 800,000,000. Plans for how this was to be financed were not outlined, and this makes one wonder how serious these plans were, although they were quite detailed. In any event, the ensuing stock market crash and Depression no doubt wiped them out entirely. What was included: Manhattan -- Second Avenue subway: From Pine and Water Sts, via Water St., Pearl St., New Bowery, Chrystie St., Second Ave. 2 tracks to Chambers St., 4 tracks to 61st St., 6 tracks to 125th St., 4 tracks to the Harlem river, with connection to Bronx lines as outlined in the Bronx section below. -- 61st Street subway: Connection from Sixth Ave line at 52nd St. to 61st St. and Second Ave, 2 tracks. No Queens connection at this point is outlined in the original plan. -- Worth St. Line-Connection from WTC stub end local tracks to S. 4th St. Brooklyn: Via Worth St., East Broadway and Grand St., 2 tracks. This would use a separate river tunnel from the Houston St. line below, and the two river tunnels would meet at the enormous S. 4th St. junction. -- Houston St. Line: From the stub end tracks at Second Avenue of todays F to a new river tunnel, separate from the above line, meeting at S. 4th St., 2 tracks. Of course, these proposals explain many of the provisions for transfers outlined in Joe Brennans outstanding list, including the stubs at Second Avenue, the room for a line at East Broadway, etc. All of these lines were subway. Bronx -- Boston Road Line: From the Second Avenue Line, 4 tracks under the river to Alexander Avenue, passing 149th St. and Third Avenue, then northeasterly to the intersection of Elton, Brook and Washington Aves., then to Boston Road at the junction of that thoroughfare with 163rd St. and Third Ave.. Here, 2 tracks would branch off as outlined below. The Boston Road line would continue with 2 tracks along Boston Road to 177th St. At that point the subway would emerge onto an el, continue through the 180th St. yard, and use the White Plains Rd. line, (which would be modified to B division standards). A Morris Park Avenue Line would arise from this line in the 180th St. yard as well (outlined below). This entire line would be 4 tracks. -- 163rd St-Hunts Point, Lafayette Ave Line: 2 tracks branching off the Boston Road trunk line, curving east as a subway along 163rd St., and then Garrison Ave, emerging as an el at Edgewater Road and Seneca Ave., across the Bronx River, then along Lafayette Avenue for several miles to East Tremont Ave at East 177th St. This would include a transfer with the Pelham line at Hunts Point Avenue. The line would serve the extreme East Bronx (i.e. near the Bruckner interchange and on to Throgs Neck). -- Concourse Line Extension: From 205th and Bainbridge, along Burke Avenue to Boston Road, and then along Boston Road approx 2 miles to Baychester Avenue, 2 tracks. This would thus be an east-west Bronx line heading in the direction of todays Co-op City, and would include a transfer with the White Plains Road line at Burke Avenue.. -- Morris Park Avenue-Wilson Ave Line: 2 tracks northeasterly along Morris Park Avenue (does not say whether this would be el or subway), and then north along Wilson Avenue to Boston Road to meet the Concourse Line extension and continue to Baychester Avenue and Boston Road. Obviously, an extensive knowledge of Bronx geography, or a map, helps enormously in envisioning these lines. I have a decent familiarity with the Bronx, having gone to high school there, yet this was difficult for me without a map. A sketch is included in the article, but unfortunately, I dont have a scanner. Clearly, parts of the Lafayette Ave. line duplicate the Pelham line (which was then run by the competing IRT), but there are areas of the East Bronx that are not served today that would have been had the line been built. The Morris Park Avenue Line was clearly planned without knowing that the NYW&B would become available for rapid transit use. Brooklyn -- Liberty Avenue Line: Extension of the A, then under construction. 4 tracks from Eastern Pkwy/Broadway Junction along Liberty Avenue to about Wyona Avenue, and then 3 tracks along the Liberty Avenue el from Grant Avenue to Lefferts Blvd. But, it didnt end there. The Second System would have made great strides in serving parts of Queens not served at all today (see details of Queens lines below). The Liberty Avenue line would have been extended along Liberty Avenue and then Brinckerhoff Avenue and Hollis Avenues all the way to Springfield Blvd., a distance of 6.2 miles. 3 tracks would have been present to 180th St., and 2 tracks from there to Springfield Blvd. There would have been a short 2 track spur running along 180th St. and then Jamaica Avenue to connect to the end of the Jamaica el at 168th St. Presumably, all beyond Lefferts Blvd. would be an el, but that is not specified. This line is sort of what the Archer Avenue line was supposed to be, as there would also have been a transfer to a line tying-in with the Queens Blvd. IND running down Van Wyck Blvd. That line would have also gone (as a separate line) to SE Queens (see Queens details below). -- South 4th Street-Utica Avenue Line: This would have gone (as subway) from the Houston St. river tunnel to Grand St. in Williamsburg, southeasterly to S. 4th St. and Driggs Ave., then along S. 4th Street (easterly and parallel to Broadway), then along Union Avenue and then Beaver Street to turn south along Stuyvesant Avenue until moving to Utica Avenue at approximately Fulton Street (where the never-used shell is in place today). The Utica Avenue Line would then have continued as subway to Avenue I, emerged as an el and continued to Avenue S, where it would have moved to Nostrand Avenue and continued to its terminal at Voorhies Avenue in Sheepshead Bay. There would have been 2 tracks from the river to the S. 4th St. junction, then 8 tracks (!!) (two levels of 4 tracks, with the other level for the Myrtle-Central-Rockaway line outlined below), to the cut-off for the Stuyvesant-Utica line, then 4 tracks to Avenue S, then 2 tracks with a provision for expansion to 4 to Voorhies Ave. The other river tunnel, arising from the Worth St. line (see Manhattan above) would have continued as 2 tracks under Broadway Brooklyn and then southeasterly to the S. 4th St. junction. So, S. 4th Street would have been the junction of two river tunnels, with a transfer to the GG, and would have given rise to two major trunk lines heading east. Its not impossible to envision this station as the most complicated in the system, like Hoyt-Schermerhorn, but with as many, or more, connections as Queens Plaza. Depending on how flexible they wanted service to be, the track connections here could have been incredible. Despite being in a relative backwater location (although Williamsburg, especially then, was an area of importance), it would have been quite busy. A plan to extend the IRT Nostrand Avenue Line as a 2 track subway to Kings Highway, and then as an el to meet the Utica Avenue Line at Avenue S was also included. Presumably, this would have been a transfer and not a direct track connection since there would be A and B division lines meeting here. -- Myrtle Avenue-Central Avenue-Rockaway Line: At Stuyvesant Avenue, where the Utica Avenue Line would turn south, this line would continue east as a subway along Bushwick Avenue, Myrtle Avenue, and then Central Avenue to about 73rd Place, where it would emerge and then follow the LIRR Montauk Division. It would have continued to the LIRR Rockaway Branch and then turned south through Forest Park, and continued south to Jamaica Bay. It would have been 4 tracks to Howard Beach, then 2 tracks. It would then cross Jamaica Bay and the islands paralleling Cross Bay Blvd to a point on the Rockaway peninsula near Hammels Avenue and Beach 83rd St.. The line would have gone to Beach 149th Street to the south (not Beach 116th St. -- it would have extended the line along Newport Avenue for 1.6 miles), and Mott Avenue to the North. These would have been 2 track lines in Rockaway, as they are today. A cross-connection to the IND Queens Blvd. line (the Winfield Spur below), was also proposed, so Rockaway passengers could get to midtown as well as downtown Manhattan. In addition, a 120th Avenue line serving SE Queens and linking to the Van Wyck Blvd. line would have come off the main Rockaway line at North Conduit Avenue (see below in Queens section). Some of these lines would have paralleled existing Brooklyn els, and one wonders if the plan was for the els to be demolished once the new lines were constructed. Queens -- Winfield Spur: This was designed to provide through service to the Rockaways from midtown, and also to serve the neighborhoods of Maspeth and Ridgewood. It would have been a two track line arising from the Roosevelt Avenue station (the never-used upper level station, but also would have track connections to the main line), and curving southeasterly between 78th and 79th Sts. to Queens Blvd., then along the LIRR ROW into Garfield Avenue to 65th Place, then along 65th Place to Fresh Pond Road, and then along Fresh Pond Rd and Cypress Hills Avenue to a connection with the Central Avenue line outlined above. The line would be 2 tracks, and would be subway to 45th Avenue, then elevated to Fresh Pond Road, then subway again to Central Avenue. In looking at the map, the rationale for the circuitous route becomes a little more apparent, since it appears to skirt some large cemeteries, thus staying in the residential/commercial areas. -- 120th Avenue Line: Arising from the Rockaway line, this would have run for 5.23 miles east along 120th Avenue and then Springfield Blvd. to Foch Blvd. It would have been 4 tracks to its junction with the Van Wyck Blvd. line (see below), and then 2 tracks. Obviously, it would have served parts of southeast Queens that have no rapid transit service at present, yet badly need it. It would have been an elevated line throughout. -- Van Wyck Boulevard Line: Utilizing the track connection later taken by todays Archer Avenue Line, this would have arisen from the Queens Blvd IND, and continued as subway along Van Wyck Blvd 166th Avenue, and then as elevated to its junction with the 120th Avenue Line at Rockaway Blvd. This line would have been 2 tracks. -- Flushing Line Extension: Having grown up in Flushing, this is my favorite. The line would have been extended as subway along Roosevelt Avenue to 150th St., and then would have emerged and followed the LIRR Port Washington ROW to 221st St. and 38th Avenue. It would have been 3 tracks to 155th St., then 2 tracks. In addition, a two track line would have branched off at 147th St. and Roosevelt Avenue and run along 149th St. running as subway to 35th Avenue and then as elevated (if you know this area, you know it would be very different with an el along 149th St.!), to 11th Avenue, at which point it would turn and follow 11th Avenue to 122nd Street in College Point. These additions would thus provide service to Murray Hill, Auburnadale, Bayside, Whitestone and College Point. -- Astoria Line Extension: This would have curved east along Ditmars Blvd., Astoria Blvd., 112th St., and then diagonally across intervening streets and the Flushing River to Nassau Blvd. for several miles to Cross Island Blvd.. This line would have been entirely elevated, with two tracks to Astoria Blvd., then 4 tracks to Parsons and Nassau Blvds, and then 2 tracks to its terminus. Even as a Queens native, Im not sure what Nassau Blvd is, although I think its todays Booth Memorial Avenue, although it could be Horace Harding Blvd as well. I assume Cross Island Blvd is what was there before the Cross Island Pkwy, although it could also be Francis Lewis Blvd or Utopia Pkwy. In any event, broad areas of Queens including Steinway, East Elmhurst, Kew Garden Hills and Fresh Meadows that are not served by rapid transit today would have had direct subway access. According to the article, if these lines were all built, only about 42 of Queenss 100 square miles would be left without rapid transit service, and much of that territory is mostly shorefront. Certainly, Queens would be very different if these lines had been built. Service would have been much better, but the areas would probably have been more densely built up as well. Staten Island Nothing proposed, although a proposed vehicular Narrows Tunnel was included in the proposal, although separate funding was to be obtained. Oh well, enjoy imagining what might have been!
- Subject: Re: IND Second System (long post)
- Message Number: 759571
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:38 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]IND Second System (long post) posted by Bobby on November 19, 1997 at 14:03:46: Vs. some of the other material on here, this is great stuff. Not all of these details are known by a good many of us regular parishioners, so thanks for taking the time to reserach and inform.
  - Subject: Re: IND Second System (long post)
  - Message Number: 759576
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:42 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]IND Second System (long post) posted by Bobby on November 19, 1997 at 14:03:46: No apology for the length of your posting is necessary, it is easily the most informative posting yet on the Second System. How did you determine the date, or did you find it searching by subject?
    - Subject: Re: IND Second System (long post)
    - Message Number: 759578
    - Posted by: David Pirmann
    - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:43 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]IND Second System (long post) posted by Bobby on November 19, 1997 at 14:03:46: Bobby, Thanks for that great post. If you don't mind I'd like to incorporate it into the existing pages about the Second Avenue Subway. If you've got the original article on paper, I'd love to scan it for the site. Speaking of which, did your local library have the NY times on paper or microfilm? Microfilm is nearly impossible to use as a scannable source. Too small and often scratched. The printouts are terrible too. Just curious on that one. If anyone does know a paper source for old NY Times (prior to 1922 is out of copyright) I'd love to know of it. There's an amazing amount of information in them that is begging to be put online. -dave
      - Subject: Re: IND Second System (long post)
      - Message Number: 759581
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:46 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: IND Second System (long post) posted by David Pirmann on November 19, 1997 at 17:01:21: I have already started to put Bobby's route descriptions onto a map, but am running into trouble getting appropriate base maps. I will concentrate on downtown Manhattan, which I have, and wait and see what you can accomplish as far as getting the graphics from the original Times article. This is a GREAT find!
        
        Subject: Re: IND Second System (long post)
        Message Number: 759584
        Posted by: Bobby
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:48 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: IND Second System (long post) posted by David Pirmann on November 19, 1997 at 17:01:21: You are certainly welcome to use the Second System posting as part of this site's piece on the Second Avenue subway, although you might want to modify some of my personal comments. I got the information off microfilm, as that was all that was available. The printout is in fact rather scratchy and poor, but the mapsketch might be usable. If Dave posts a snail mail address, I'll mail it to you. As far as knowing what date to look up, I knew it was 1929, and just looked for "Independent Subway" in the NY Times Index.
        
        Subject: Re: IND Second System (long post)
        Message Number: 759896
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:58:26 1997
        
        Subject: Re: IND Second System (long post)
        Message Number: 759898
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:58:30 1997
        
        Subject: Re: IND Second System (long post)
        Message Number: 759906
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:58:44 1997
        
        Subject: Re: IND Second System (long post)
        Message Number: 759910
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:58:55 1997
        
        Subject: Re: IND Second System (long post)
        Message Number: 759926
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 10:59:34 1997
        
        Subject: Re: IND Second System (long post)
        Message Number: 759947
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:00:24 1997
        
        Subject: Re: IND Second System (long post)
        Message Number: 759948
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:00:26 1997
        
        Subject: Re: IND Second System (long post)
        Message Number: 759950
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:00:31 1997
        
        Subject: Re: IND Second System (long post)
        Message Number: 759951
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:00:33 1997
        
        Subject: Re: IND Second System (long post)
        Message Number: 759956
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:00:44 1997

Thread title: Re: IND Second System (long post), Reply-PART DEUX (759572)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:53:38 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Re: IND Second System (long post), Reply-PART DEUX
Message Number: 759572
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:38 1997

In Reply to: [6]IND Second System (long post) posted by Bobby on November 19, 1997 at 14:03:46: Sorry, one more detail you might find interesting...You can see the beginnings of a roadbed for the Worth Street connection looking out the front window, shortly before the southbound "E" gets into WTC. Look off to the right basically at the bottom of the 'fly-under' crossover.

Thread title: Taking of Pelham 123 Again! (759575)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:53:41 1997, by Russ

Subject: Taking of Pelham 123 Again!
Message Number: 759575
Posted by: Russ
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:41 1997

Well it's official, the new sets for the shooting of the re-make of the classic subway movie "The Taking of Pelham 123" are under construction in our unused lower Bay Station of the Toronto Transit subway. (They shot "Darkman Two" there) The movie company will be using done up sets and H-1 (Hawker-Siddley) 75' cars for the shoot. They will also be doing a set to recreat the Command Center based on photos of the Hillcrest Control Center in Toronto. This should be interesting as it progresses. Do hope it is technically accruate. Stay tuned for dates and results
- Subject: Re: Taking of Pelham 123 Again!
- Message Number: 759891
- Posted by: ____________________________________________________
- Date: Sun Nov 30 10:58:16 1997
  - Subject: Re: Taking of Pelham 123 Again!
  - Message Number: 759905
  - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
  - Date: Sun Nov 30 10:58:42 1997
    - Subject: Re: Taking of Pelham 123 Again!
    - Message Number: 759913
    - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
    - Date: Sun Nov 30 10:59:04 1997
      - Subject: Re: Taking of Pelham 123 Again!
      - Message Number: 759915
      - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
      - Date: Sun Nov 30 10:59:10 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Taking of Pelham 123 Again!
        Message Number: 759941
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:00:13 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Taking of Pelham 123 Again!
        Message Number: 759943
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:00:17 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Taking of Pelham 123 Again!
        Message Number: 759949
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:00:28 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Taking of Pelham 123 Again!
        Message Number: 759955
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:00:42 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Taking of Pelham 123 Again!
        Message Number: 759958
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:00:48 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Taking of Pelham 123 Again!
        Message Number: 759959
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:00:50 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Taking of Pelham 123 Again!
        Message Number: 759961
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:00:54 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Taking of Pelham 123 Again!
        Message Number: 759967
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:01:10 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Taking of Pelham 123 Again!
        Message Number: 759968
        Posted by: ____________________________________________________
        Date: Sun Nov 30 11:01:12 1997

Thread title: Re: New Years Eve 1999 (759579)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:53:44 1997, by Ted

Subject: Re: New Years Eve 1999
Message Number: 759579
Posted by: Ted
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:44 1997

In Reply to: [7]Re: safety and New Years Eve posted by David Pirmann on November 18, 1997 at 11:34:48: I'm curious about New Years Eve 1999 , are there any projections of the possible number of people that will be in the Times Square area on that night ? Can the subway handle millions of people , departing at the same time ? Would it be possible to have some subway lines run in only one direction while another line runs in the opposite direction ?
- Subject: Re: New Years Eve 1999
- Message Number: 759909
- Posted by: ____________________________________________________
- Date: Sun Nov 30 10:58:53 1997
  - Subject: Re: New Years Eve 1999
  - Message Number: 759923
  - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
  - Date: Sun Nov 30 10:59:29 1997
    - Subject: Re: New Years Eve 1999
    - Message Number: 759925
    - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
    - Date: Sun Nov 30 10:59:32 1997
      - Subject: Re: New Years Eve 1999
      - Message Number: 759946
      - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
      - Date: Sun Nov 30 11:00:23 1997

Thread title: NYC Transit Museum Day One on the IRT Tour (759583)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:53:47 1997, by David L.

Subject: NYC Transit Museum Day One on the IRT Tour
Message Number: 759583
Posted by: David L.
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:47 1997

Is there an age requirement to go on the Transit Museum's Day One on the IRT tour?
- Subject: Re: NYC Transit Museum Day One on the IRT Tour
- Message Number: 759591
- Posted by: subway-buff`
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:53:55 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]NYC Transit Museum Day One on the IRT Tour posted by David L. on November 19, 1997 at 18:27:04: I am a museum member. On *all* tours I have been on there have been children present. I presume (do not answer) you must be middle elementary age or older and as such I see no problem. I have been on this tour- it is great. You'll see 91st and Broadway, Times Square, Grand Central including shuttle at both ends, 18 st and Park Ave South, Side Platforms at Brooklyn Bridge,a nd of course City Hall Station. Great tour. Mr. Cunningham who is the guide is very knowledgeable and you'll learn alot. This is not a fake message. The SIter Host knows my name and my honesty.

Thread title: Family members who worked on subway ! (759599)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:54:01 1997, by George Campoli

Subject: Family members who worked on subway !
Message Number: 759599
Posted by: George Campoli
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:01 1997

Hello, It is believed that my grandfather George Mandzik worked on the N Y Subway sometime after 1911. Is there any archive information to substantiate this? My great uncle Uljan "Julius" Predko is also believed to have worked on the subway at the same time. Julius may have been killed while working on the subway. Is there a fatality list of those who were killed while working on the subway's construction ? They both lived in Brooklyn at the time. Sincerely, George Campoli Denver,Colorado
- Subject: Re: Family members who worked on subway !
- Message Number: 759605
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:06 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Family members who worked on subway ! posted by George Campoli on November 15, 1997 at 10:39:51: The NY Transit Museum archives might be able to help you with this. Keep in mind that this site is unofficial. For something like that you might have a lot of leg work to do. For instance, the corporations that ran the subway back then don't even exist any more.
  - Subject: Re: Family members who worked on subway !
  - Message Number: 759887
  - Posted by: ____________________________________________________
  - Date: Sun Nov 30 10:58:03 1997

Thread title: nyct bus #1841 on the bx10 (759607)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:54:08 1997, by Lefty

Subject: nyct bus #1841 on the bx10
Message Number: 759607
Posted by: Lefty
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:08 1997

the other day i was waiting for a bus to go to school (i take the bx10 from w231st st to Paul Ave and 205th, the bronx high school of science) and to my surprise a bus with an unfamiliar number pulled up.. in most cases the numbers are in the 4thousands.. this one was 1841 and when i got on i noticed it had cushioned seats! what a nice surprise. can anyone tell me what this bus was oding running on the bx10? i figured it was transferred for one reason or another from an express bus line maybe? are they just installing these nice new seats on all the buses? it happened again with bus 1814 by the way in the opposite direction..
- Subject: Re: nyct bus #1841 on the bx10
- Message Number: 759610
- Posted by: Mike
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:10 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]nyct bus #1841 on the bx10 posted by Lefty on November 15, 1997 at 13:31:55: Lefty, I just wanted to let you know that NYCT has been using alot of the soft cushion seats on many of its routes coming out of Jackie Gleason, Ulmer Park, Flatbush & Manhattanville, mostly all of the 1740's to the 1859 series because there using alot of the new express bus coaches with the soft internior seats & also because more service was being added & needed more buses for the added service, they probably decided to use the soft cushion seats on the local routes.
  - Subject: Re: nyct bus #1841 on the bx10
  - Message Number: 759623
  - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:20 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: nyct bus #1841 on the bx10 posted by Mike on November 15, 1997 at 13:55:26: No. 1814 is a 1982 GM RTS and this group of buses are being retired and some are being rebuilt and renumbered as 7000 & 7500 series. NYCTA recently placed many new express and local buses in service which is why these will either be retired or rebuilt.
    - Subject: Re: nyct bus #1841 on the bx10
    - Message Number: 759627
    - Posted by: Fernando Perez
    - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:24 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: nyct bus #1841 on the bx10 posted by Wayne Johnson on November 15, 1997 at 21:11:37: At Amsterdam we have 1771 and 1774 with the cushion seats. There great buses and fast. Although they have the hard seats for the driver and it hurts your back after a few trips. At Kingsbridge they have one that has the express bus seating arrangement but the seats are the hard ones. The 7500 are now arriving at 100St depot and have a new type of steering wheel which is very interesting, and the rims are so shiny! These retired buses run great and have had minor overhauls plus new paintjobs, and started arriving just before the intermodel went into effect around May.
      - Subject: Re: nyct bus #1841 on the bx10
      - Message Number: 759635
      - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
      - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: nyct bus #1841 on the bx10 posted by Fernando Perez on November 16, 1997 at 00:43:56: These old RTS buses are from the Yukon and Castleton Depots on SI, and used to run in x-bus service until an axle failure proved that they were dangerous at high speeds. They were all pulled from x-bus service, and assigned to local routes on the island. Recently, we've been getting 200-series Orions from Kingsbridge Depot, This is possibly one of the buses sent out to there. But my original understanding was that they were being shifted due to delivery of the 1000-series Flyer Artics... -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: nyct bus #1841 on the bx10
        Message Number: 759665
        Posted by: Eric B
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: nyct bus #1841 on the bx10 posted by Hank Eisenstein on November 16, 1997 at 03:14:43: This also happened a few years ago when an axle cracked on a fishbowl, and they bbegan to be retired. Then, you started seeing the former expresses with the cushion seats running around all over the place. They do it, because it doesn't matter if those seats get torn up, when the bus is about to be retired anyway. Everyone enjoy this treat from the TA!

Thread title: overhead electric trains on MNRR hudson line? (759608)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:54:08 1997, by Lefty

Subject: overhead electric trains on MNRR hudson line?
Message Number: 759608
Posted by: Lefty
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:08 1997

on the way back form albany on AMTRAK i noticed at the side of the tracks somewhere around poughkeepsie i think, two old train cars that had equipment on top to receive electricity from catenary wires. as far as i know there were never overhead lines along the hudson line? what was taht train doing there? i also noticed some old cars with MNRR markings that looked just like the coach that i was riding in except for a hump on the top. when were these cars in service?
- Subject: Re: overhead electric trains on MNRR hudson line?
- Message Number: 759620
- Posted by: John
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:18 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]overhead electric trains on MNRR hudson line? posted by Lefty on November 15, 1997 at 13:35:25: The cars you saw that look like Amtrak cars are self-propeled diesel cars and they were used mostly for shuttle service. I'm not sure if they are still used regularly.
  - Subject: Re: overhead electric trains on MNRR hudson line?
  - Message Number: 759631
  - Posted by: Andrewh Huie
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:27 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]overhead electric trains on MNRR hudson line? posted by Lefty on November 15, 1997 at 13:35:25: What you saw was just north of Croton-Harmon. The two cars are old Erie-Lackawanna electrics. I got to see them from the autumn-foliage train when Croton-Harmon had their open house. The train passed slowly enough for me to have a good look. As for what they are doing there, I don't know, but I suspect they've been there for awhile. I remember seeing them in the dark as I was passing by Croton-Harmon on an Amtrak train. As for the self-propelled rail diesel cars, they were probably retired sometime in the 80's or early 90's. These cars probably predate Metro-North and even Conrail by quite a bit.
    - Subject: Re: overhead electric trains on MNRR hudson line?
    - Message Number: 759634
    - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
    - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:29 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]overhead electric trains on MNRR hudson line? posted by Lefty on November 15, 1997 at 13:35:25: Sounds like BUDD SPV 2000s to me. They were supposed to be modern replacements for RDC's, but ended up with the knickname 'Seldom Powered Vehicles' because of their unreliability. They were used for shuttle service on all non-electrified lines. Most of them have been rebuilt into coaches for CONNDOT Shore Line East operation. -Hank
      - Subject: Re: overhead electric trains on MNRR hudson line?
      - Message Number: 759651
      - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]overhead electric trains on MNRR hudson line? posted by Lefty on November 15, 1997 at 13:35:25: [8]Was this what you saw? The Budd SPV-2000s were never known for their reliability and have since been retired. I rode them on many a trip to Poughkeepsie from Croton-Harmon. They never accelerated well. --Mark

Thread title: A third NYCT bus service between Brooklyn & Staten Island. (759609)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:54:09 1997, by Steve

Subject: A third NYCT bus service between Brooklyn & Staten Island.
Message Number: 759609
Posted by: Steve
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:09 1997

I have read recently in the NYCT Staten Island Transit Needs Assessment Study in there Park & Ride section on the College of Staten Island that NYCT was looking at a College of Staten Island to Brooklyn route, I would like to know from anyone on when this new route would begin, it's number, what avenue, streets or etc will it operate on & where will it operate between. I would greatly appreciate it.

Thread title: Subway/El Scenes In The Movie "Streets Of Fire" (759611)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:54:11 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Subway/El Scenes In The Movie "Streets Of Fire"
Message Number: 759611
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:11 1997

Some of you may remember me posting a message earlier this year asking about the 1984 movie "Streets Of Fire", which shows lots of subway/el footage. In one of the replies I got, it was said that most of the scenes were a set. I know that the real subway and el scenes in the movie were shot in Chicago, as they showed the 6000 series (PCC) trains, and a train crossing the Chicago River on either the Lake Street (Green Line), or the Ravenswood (Brown Line). Of those of you who are familiar with Streets Of Fire, Can you tell me if any of the scenes were shot under the East 63rd Street "L" structure? Because in the movie, the "L" structures had lattice in the support columns, very similar to the structures on East 63rd St., as well as the short elevated portion of the O'Hare (Blue Line). When I was in Chicago back in September, I've noticed that none of the "L" structures in The Loop had lattice in the support columns. Also in the movie, there is a scene where a train comes down off the "L" structure, and into a subway station. Can anyone tell me what station that was? I know that the Red and Blue Lines are the only 2 subways in downtown Chicago. Thanks.
- Subject: Re: Subway/El Scenes In The Movie "Streets Of Fire"
- Message Number: 759638
- Posted by: Frank Gatazka
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:33 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Subway/El Scenes In The Movie "Streets Of Fire" posted by Timothy on November 15, 1997 at 14:59:02: I checked this out with two of my Chicago "sources", Curt Seeliger of North Berwick, ME, who models the Chicago Els extensively, as well as Irwin Davis, who is a motorman on the CTA. Both tell me that all of the street scenes are a set. None were filmed under 63rd Street. I'm not from Chicago, nor am I a Chicago El railfan, but they tell me that you can tell from the style of column structure and the location of the columns as they are set into the street, as opposed to being at the curb (63rd Street has columns at the curb, sumilar to the old Fulton Street El in Brooklyn). My sources at NBC tell me that the same set was used for portions of the movie, "The Sting" as well as "The Phantom". In these films, the sets were enhanced with computer as well as painted artwork. By the way, some of the more recent "ER" episodes use an enhanced location set with false El columns, in lieu of actually shooting at the West Side hospital complex at Polk. Many times it's cheaper to build sets than to do location shooting, and then the director has complete control of his/her environment.
  - Subject: Re: Subway/El Scenes In The Movie "Streets Of Fire"
  - Message Number: 759643
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:37 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway/El Scenes In The Movie "Streets Of Fire" posted by Frank Gatazka on November 17, 1997 at 07:42:41: I'm confused by your reference to "Old Fulton St El" . If you refer to the original iron structure which ran from Fulton Ferry to City Line on Liberty Avenue, it had columns straddling the centerline but in the roadway on the section that remained unmodified (on Pitkin Ave, mostly) until it was torn down in the 50's. The still standing section of the Broadway-Jamaica El that runs on Fulton St. between Alabama Ave and Crescent St. has columns at the curb line. The Fulton St. El between Rockaway Ave and Brooklyn Bridge was modified by the Dual Contracts, and was torn down before I was born, but I suspect it was upgraded to sidewalk columns. The proof of the pudding would be the remaining chunk of structure at Franklin Ave. Will somebody take a look and post your finding?
    - Subject: Re: Subway/El Scenes In The Movie "Streets Of Fire"
    - Message Number: 759655
    - Posted by: Frank Gatazka
    - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:46 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: Subway/El Scenes In The Movie "Streets Of Fire" posted by Gary Jacobi on November 17, 1997 at 11:58:40: When I referred to the "Old Fulton Street El", I meant the original iron latticework structure over Fulton Street from Fulton Ferry to Rockaway Avenue. This structure was nicknamed "The Black Widow of Fulton Street" and had round cast iron columns at the curb over the majority of it's length, with the longitudinal girderwork (three girders only) for the double track narrowly attached over the street, thus looking like a spider with it's long spindly legs. Only the portion from Franklin Avenue to Utica Avenue, and then from Rockaway Avenue to East New York was rebuilt as part of the Dual Contracts as a three track El (re-using the original three lattice work girders in combination with three new plate girders), the rest remained the orginal two track structure until it was torn down in the forties. The section over Pitkin Avenue from Pennsylvania Avenue to Grant Avenue at the City Line was a narrow two track lattice work structure with the round cast iron columns in the street, although at stations some columns were at the curb. This structure also employed only three longitudinal girders for the two tracks. This was torn down in 1956 after the connection to the Fulton Street Subway was made at Hudson Street. The Fulton Street portion of the Broadway El was (and is) an extension of the Broadway-Jamaica El and is built differently than the original Fulton Street structure. Originally it utilized plate girder longitudinal girders under each rail with lattice work columns at the curb. It employed pedastal angles at the columns to attach them to the cross girders (also plate girders of shallow depth) and no knee plates. It was rebuilt in recent times with solid "H" beam style columns. The section from Alabama Avenue to Cypress Hills is the oldest extant El in NYC. The 63rd Street structure in Chicago's South Side is similar in construction to the Fulton Street (original iron structure) except that it conventionally uses four longitudinal lattice work girders instead of three as on the Fulton Street structure. Some details are slightly different also, but it LOOKS a lot like the "Old Fulton Street" El! Hope this clears up confusion! Frank
      - Subject: Re: Subway/El Scenes In The Movie "Streets Of Fire"
      - Message Number: 759663
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:53 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway/El Scenes In The Movie "Streets Of Fire" posted by Frank Gatazka on November 17, 1997 at 17:15:34: Thanks for the additional info, Frank. I was not aware that only two short stretches of Ninteenth Century Fulton St. structure were 3-tracked as part of the dual contracts. I am aware that Nevins St. was supposed to hook up with the El, so perhaps they gave themselves some leeway as to where to come above ground, but "KNEW" they needed to up by Franklin to make the Brighton connection. But I don't understand the short gap between Utica and Rockaway Ave.

Thread title: MTA Paint schemes (759615)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:54:14 1997, by Jeff

Subject: MTA Paint schemes
Message Number: 759615
Posted by: Jeff
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:14 1997

Whoever is in charge of MTA paint schemes should get some glasses or needs to be fired. Hundreds of MTA buses have been desecrated with white paint on the window and door frames. How ugly! Now I hear the R-142 might get burgundy paint on their bottom halves. That would be an outrage. What the MTA needs to do is get some black paint for the buses and bring back the classy blue stripe the subways used to have. The LIRR and MNRR all have stripes and its time for the subway cars to get them back too.
- Subject: Re: MTA Paint schemes
- Message Number: 759622
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:20 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]MTA Paint schemes posted by Jeff on November 15, 1997 at 17:27:40: We've touched on this a few times and agree with you concerning the NYCTA bus scheme - it is truly hideous. Most LIRR MU cars have had their blue stripe removed.
  - Subject: Re: MTA Paint schemes
  - Message Number: 759633
  - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:29 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: MTA Paint schemes posted by Wayne Johnson on November 15, 1997 at 20:30:55: Painting stainless steel is a waste of good money that could be better spent elsewhere. Why paint something that only needs to be cleaned once in a while and looks good as it is? MNCR and LIRR are removing the blue MTA stripes, and the ends are gettting yellow scotch-lite reflective stripes where the blue used to be. I've seen MNCR MU's that had the entire end painted blue, and white reflective zebra stripes. Got a photo here somewhere.... -Hank
    - Subject: Re: MTA Paint schemes
    - Message Number: 759636
    - Posted by: Philip nasadowski
    - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:31 1997
      
      In Reply to: [7]Re: MTA Paint schemes posted by Hank Eisenstein on November 16, 1997 at 03:06:02: I think the current LIRR/MNRR MU paint scheme SUCKS!!!!! Personally, I HATE the stainless look. It just looks plain dull, and frankly I'm sick of it. That and the "an elephant sat on it" squished look of the current MUs. And while I'm bitching about it, the bump on the New Haven equipment. Although that looks a hell of a lot better than NJT's exposed resistors/roof wiring... My personal favorites in the looks department are the ACMUs :) /
      - Subject: Re: MTA Paint schemes
      - Message Number: 759647
      - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [7]Re: MTA Paint schemes posted by Philip nasadowski on November 16, 1997 at 22:13:55: Yes, its ugly and the black paint around the bus windows made the buses look better but it is more expensive to have that additional paint, and NYC Transit is always looking for ways to save money. Most passengers don't care if their bus has the blank paint or not, all they care about is that their bus arrives right away. This monetary savings doen't affect service at all. Regarding the trains, you don't have to paint stainless steel and that translates into savings as well. Witness the removal of the blue stripe on the R40s on up when they went through their overhauls. And you'd be perfectly right in asking, "then why did NYC Transit spend $3 million for their new "pacman" logo?" Other than "a consultant recommended it for brand identity", I don't have an answer to that one. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: MTA Paint schemes
        Message Number: 759667
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:56 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: MTA Paint schemes posted by Mark S Feinman on November 17, 1997 at 13:16:14: Painting is expensive, but for some strange reason the TA is repainting many of the remaining 1981-1982 GMC RTS buses. Most of these buses have been retired and some have been rebuilt. The remaining few are obviously serving their last days in service - so why spend money to give them fresh paint jobs/new MTA logos. Queens Village depot has several 1982 (1700) and 1983 (3200) RTS and instead of repainting them they simply replaced the old M/NYCTA decals with the new MTA/NYC Bus decals.

Thread title: The BART system (759617)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:54:16 1997, by Mark Greenwald

Subject: The BART system
Message Number: 759617
Posted by: Mark Greenwald
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:16 1997

About 15 years ago, I had ordered some information on the BART system--They sent me the following documents, of which I finally found a box after many years--"Art in Bart"--"Chronology"---"Bart facilities for the handicap"--"Bart system fact sheet"---"The transbay Tube"---and---"A history of Bart" If anybody has any specific questions under these topics, feel free to e-mail me. David, if you're interested, I'll send it all to you if you would like to scan and post within the site.....let me know (Note: new e-mail address)

Thread title: Another Quiz--The DC Metro (759625)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:54:22 1997, by Mark Greenwald

Subject: Another Quiz--The DC Metro
Message Number: 759625
Posted by: Mark Greenwald
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:22 1997

1) What were the 5 original stations to open & what line are they on? 2) What station was originally supposed to open with the original 5 but wasn't able to due to lack of handicap access. 3) What was the first station to open in the state of Maryland? 4) Metro first broke ground on what date and at what station? 5) In April 1982, the WMATA board had decided to change the southern terminus of the Green Line to what location? It was changed back to Branch Avenue at a later date. 6) The Woodley Park-Zoo station was originally known by what name on the original maps? 7) The original northern terminal for the Yellow Line was supposed to be where? 8) Is the Eisenhower Ave. station aerial, surface, or subway? 9) To help assist passengers with reduced visibility, the plans for each station call for this type of "edging" along the platforms. Recent federal rulings could threaten the existence of this edging for the more familiar "bumpy yellow, rubber" edging. 10) The length of each station is able to fit a train of ____ cars and the station is ____ feet in length. Please e-mail me with your answers------no need to spoil it for others

Thread title: Re: What is DVARP? Question answered (759639)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:54:33 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Re: What is DVARP? Question answered
Message Number: 759639
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:33 1997

In Reply to: [6]What is DVARP? posted by John on November 14, 1997 at 17:38:58: Delaware Valley Association of Railroad Passengers
- Subject: Re: What is DVARP? Question answered
- Message Number: 759644
- Posted by: chris
- Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:38 1997
  
  In Reply to: [7]Re: What is DVARP? Question answered posted by Charles Fiori on November 17, 1997 at 09:21:27: also try phl.transportation news group
  - Subject: Re: What is DVARP? Question answered
  - Message Number: 759670
  - Posted by: Andrew Byler
  - Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:58 1997
    
    In Reply to: [7]Re: What is DVARP? Question answered posted by Charles Fiori on November 17, 1997 at 09:21:27: DVARP's web site: www.libertynet.org/~dvarp Contains issues of their newsletter, position papers, train schedules, links to rail sites around the country, etc. Bookmark it! Andy Byler

Thread title: The Beautiful Bronx (759671)
Started on Sat Nov 22 10:54:59 1997, by Charles A.Warren

Subject: The Beautiful Bronx
Message Number: 759671
Posted by: Charles A.Warren
Date: Sat Nov 22 10:54:59 1997

If anyone is interested, www.hamiltonbook.com has the book "The Beautiful Bronx .." available. There are a few El and trolley pictures in this photo history book.

https://www.nycsubway.org/articles/talks/subtalk-199711.html
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