SubTalk Archive 10/1997

Thread title: Tacoma Narrows, Manhattan & Whitestone Bridges (was: Trains on Bridges (757740)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:35:10 1997, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Tacoma Narrows, Manhattan & Whitestone Bridges (was: Trains on Bridges
Message Number: 757740
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:10 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Trains on Bridges posted by Gerry O'Regan on September 04, 1997 at 09:32:51: I think the Whitesone Bridge was also designed by the same person that designed the Tacoma Narrows Bridge (Galloping Gertie it used to be called), or at least its design was similar if not done by the same person. After the Tacoma Narrows collapse, stiffening truss girders were erected the length of the Whitestone in order to prevent a similar occurrence over the East River. --Mark
- Subject: Re: Tacoma Narrows, Manhattan & Whitestone Bridges (was: Trains on Bridges
- Message Number: 757743
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:12 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Tacoma Narrows, Manhattan & Whitestone Bridges (was: Trains on Bridges posted by Mark S Feinman on September 04, 1997 at 12:34:23: Actually, they were not designed by the same firm, but suspension bridges in general had been designed with less and less deck stiffness over the years. With Tacoma it finally caught up with them. It was very narrow, and stiffened with a shallow plate girder skirt. The wind often howls through the narrows, and one not-so-fine day its speed was just right to set up sympathetic vibrations and down she came, captured graphically on film. This set up a panic among the big bridge guys, who recognized several bridges with similar deck stiffness, one of which was Whitestone. D.B. Steinmann came up with a nifty solution that added diagonal cables to the suspension system, which can be seen if you look closely. This stiffened the entire assembly against the kind of motion that took "Galloping Gertie" down without mucking up the nice thin lines of the deck. This is all especially amusing when one considers that all during this era the GWB stood solid as a rock with just one deck having NO STIFFENING AT ALL, just lots of dead weight. The stiffening trusswork was added only when the bottom deck was added in the early sixties.
  - Subject: Re: Tacoma Narrows, Manhattan & Whitestone Bridges (was: Trains on Bridges
  - Message Number: 757775
  - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:37 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Tacoma Narrows, Manhattan & Whitestone Bridges (was: Trains on Bridges posted by Gary Jacobi on September 04, 1997 at 13:57:39: I read something a while back about all theses bridges. Apparently, all they needed was an OPEN truss, instead of the plate girders they had. The plates made a large block to the wind, and a truss allows wind through it. The more amazing thing is, the brooklyn bridge was over 30 when Tacoma Narrows collapsed...and the Brooklyn was built using much simpler technology than was available at Tacoma. -Hank
    - Subject: Re: Tacoma Narrows, Manhattan & Whitestone Bridges (was: Trains on Bridges
    - Message Number: 757786
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:46 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Tacoma Narrows, Manhattan & Whitestone Bridges (was: Trains on Bridges posted by Gary Jacobi on September 04, 1997 at 13:57:39: Thanks for the info. Looks like I'll be switching to the Throgs Neck Bridge as of tomorrow moring.
      - Subject: Re: Tacoma Narrows, Manhattan & Whitestone Bridges (was: Trains on Bridges
      - Message Number: 757802
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Tacoma Narrows, Manhattan & Whitestone Bridges (was: Trains on Bridges posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 05, 1997 at 16:54:02: Correct, but a truss of similar stiffness would have had to be at least 12' deep and the designers were striving for a thin look. As I mentioned, bridge designers keep moving in the direction away from conservative design until something gives. They understood wind resistance at the time of first Tacoma Narrows, but knew little or nothing about Von Karman vortex shedding, which is the aerodynamic phenomenon that led to the spectacular failure of Gertie. The Brooklyn bridge, having been designed early in the suspension bridge learning curve, was and still is way stiffer than it needed to be. It is beautiful in its own way, but nobody would call it thin!
        
        Subject: Re: Tacoma Narrows, Manhattan & Whitestone Bridges (was: Trains on Bridges
        Message Number: 757803
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Tacoma Narrows, Manhattan & Whitestone Bridges (was: Trains on Bridges posted by Gary Jacobi on September 07, 1997 at 12:15:05: Is it still stiffer than it needs to be? Thanks to the years of deferred maintainance and overuse, the Brooklyn Bridge is now saddled with a 4 ton weight limit. Could the bridge today handle the traffic it once handled in the 20's and 30's? (Cars, trucks, trolleys, el cars) -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: Tacoma Narrows, Manhattan & Whitestone Bridges (was: Trains on Bridges
        Message Number: 757834
        Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Tacoma Narrows, Manhattan & Whitestone Bridges (was: Trains on Bridges posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 07, 1997 at 14:08:18: One factor to consider on the Brooklyn Bridge is that the roadway structure may be the reason for the weight limit and not the original design. No matter how good the suspension system is, a worn out deck is still a worn out deck. As I recall, the Brooklyn Bridge has a series of heavy transverse girders connecting each pair of vertical cables. These are braced together and the deck structure rides on top of them. Thus the deck can fail without impacting the main structure of the bridge.
        
        Subject: Re: Tacoma Narrows, Manhattan & Whitestone Bridges (was: Trains on Bridges
        Message Number: 757856
        Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Tacoma Narrows, Manhattan & Whitestone Bridges (was: Trains on Bridges posted by Gerry O'Regan on September 09, 1997 at 10:37:28: I don't know if this was mentioned yet, but the Brooklyn Bridge also had a fault discovered and patched rather unelegantly: At some point it was discovered that *some* of the original suspension cables were supplied not-to-spec -- this scandal was made worse by the fact that it was not known which of the cables were bad -- and so, additional cables were added on top of the original elegant cables that were to hang straight down. Today you can see that on top of these cables were added an additional set that are at an angle (not straight up/down but criscrossed) that were added on top of the existing mix of good and bad cables! The brodge would be much nicer with the simple original cable design. BTW, I met my wife, thank G-d, at a celebration party for the 100 year aniversary of the Brooklyn Brodge (there were fireworks on the night we met...)

Thread title: The deterioration of a fine system (757745)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:35:14 1997, by Bingo

Subject: The deterioration of a fine system
Message Number: 757745
Posted by: Bingo
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:14 1997

I turned up in New York unexpectedly on the 28th (only for a day) but I was shocked at how the system has deteriorated since I was last here. Why the hell am I paying 25 cents more for a ride? And why are there less transit police patrolling the stations? Some of the transit surveillance cameras have disappeared! There are WAY more uncouth types rambling around Penn stations platform now. For the first time I feared for my life in a New York subway car. I'm surprised there isn't more vandalism on the system. I was also told that there would be less bus service now because of cuts, but I didn't use the buses to see for myself. What's going on? Now I can't travel the subway without having doubts about my safety or whether I'll be accosted by some guy with cheap, fake marijuana or packets of angel dust. I need some answers. What went wrong? And more importantly, when will it be fixed? And where the hell did those nice red cars go?
- Subject: Re: The deterioration of a fine system
- Message Number: 757746
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:14 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]The deterioration of a fine system posted by Bingo on September 04, 1997 at 14:52:32: I'm actually surprised that you've noticed significant deterioration :-o There have been some budget cuts in the last year or so, reflected mainly in reduced off-hours service and possibly in some slightly dirtier cars, but these are relatively minor. As a whole, the system is way above its levels of 10 or 15 years ago. And crime rates are much lower than even a few years ago. I've been riding the system almost every workday for 3 1/2 years, and I can't say that I've noticed any deterioration. Of course, you're seeing it from a different perspective, but even so ...
  - Subject: Re: The deterioration of a fine system
  - Message Number: 757748
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:16 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]The deterioration of a fine system posted by Bingo on September 04, 1997 at 14:52:32: "the nice red cars" are still here - on the 2, 3, 5, 6, and 7 lines. They'll be gone within two years, though. They date from 1958-1964. Maybe you notice more deterioration if you are only here once every few years. New Yorkers may not notice gradual decline over time...
    - Subject: Re: The deterioration of a fine system
    - Message Number: 757763
    - Posted by: Bill J
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:28 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]The deterioration of a fine system posted by Bingo on September 04, 1997 at 14:52:32: I also get to NYC only occassionally, but I've had a completely different impression. I was impressed by how IMPROVED the system seems. I rode a number of lines including transferring from the Franklin shuttle to the A line (where you walk down to street level in what some may call a dangerous area) and received lots of friendly help (I'd never used the new electronic turnstile for a free transfer). All the equipment I rode on was clean. At only one time did I feel a little apprehensive. In south Brooklyn I was in the lead car of an F? train when about seven rowdy young men came into the car and started making derogatory remarks about the passengers. Within a minute a TA cop entered the car and stayed until the boys got off. You must have hit things on a rare bad day.
      - Subject: Re: The deterioration of a fine system
      - Message Number: 757764
      - Posted by: Jerry
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: The deterioration of a fine system posted by Peter Rosa on September 04, 1997 at 15:06:12: I'm a native New Yorker, but only ride the subway every month or so. I have to say that, to me, it still seems dramatically improved from all periods I remember, dating back to the late fifties when I was an every day rider.
        
        Subject: Re: The deterioration of a fine system
        Message Number: 757777
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]The deterioration of a fine system posted by Bingo on September 04, 1997 at 14:52:32: I grew up in NYC. I remember when all stations had dim 25 watt incandescent bulbs, no air conditioning in cars which themselves ahd dim 25 watt lights that went off at crossovers and 3rd rail gaps. I remember the 1970s when the trains caught fire, broke down, etc. Sure-there are problems but what 90 year old car/house/building/etc doesn't need help especially if you had financial problems and had a choice of running the system in any form or shutdown- I too would defer what I could. Look at stations Like Houston (1 train) to see the present system. Sure there are more peddlers, homeless, etc,b ut they are in every city- even Philly or Atlanta has the problem. I still say the NYC subway system si the world's greatest and best and yes it does have problems that are being remedied as funding is available.
        
        Subject: Re: The deterioration of a fine system
        Message Number: 757779
        Posted by: Nick
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: The deterioration of a fine system posted by Jerry on September 05, 1997 at 11:07:56: The MTA made some big cutbacks in November '95, when the price went up a quarter. It was a bad combination....but things work out that way sometimes! The MTA I think has learned it's lesson by not wasting money...like spending millions of dollars to change their logo! But it's still a good system. Lots of stations have been renovated, and new escalators have been installed where needed. But you have to remember, it's not easy running a near-93-old, 468 station, hundereds of miles of track system. Though I'm sure the TA would be pleased to here someone refer to the "redbirds" as "those nice red cars" considering how old they are!...but even those have been maintained well! Hope your next subway ride is much better!
        
        Subject: Re: The deterioration of a fine system
        Message Number: 757787
        Posted by: Jeff
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:46 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]The deterioration of a fine system posted by Bingo on September 04, 1997 at 14:52:32: No matter how "deteriorated" the NYC subway is, it is still the best system in the world hands down!!! Although its funding was cut in mid seventies, the system held up an now they are trying to fix the problems caused by neglect and politicians playing with tax money. Give NYCTA a couple of years and it will be even better than it was befor the 1970's.
        
        Subject: Re: The deterioration of a fine system
        Message Number: 757827
        Posted by: Bingo
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: The deterioration of a fine system posted by David Pirmann on September 04, 1997 at 15:50:54: You're probably right. I mean, most people who visit Toronto find our system clean and efficient and yadah yadah yadah, but if you use the system everyday, you find that is simply not the case (in many many facets, all the way up to the management of the system) Where is the funding coming from right now? Are there private entities involved in the running of the system, or is it entirely run through public funding?
        
        Subject: Re: The deterioration of a fine system
        Message Number: 757828
        Posted by: Bingo
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: The deterioration of a fine system posted by Peter Rosa on September 04, 1997 at 15:06:12: Yes. I see it from the perspective of a freaked out visitor. Just kidding. You're right, the system has improved a lot since the seventies when all of the cars would be spraypainted from end to end. I'm surprised the system runs as well as it does with the voluminous amounts of passengers that use it everyday. It's still among the best systems in the world, and is used as a catalyst for other North American systems. That must count for something. It is much, much better than the CTA. I was surprised at the way I was treated and the negative things that I noticed. Maybe I looked too much like a tourist or something.
        
        Subject: Re: The deterioration of a fine system
        Message Number: 757829
        Posted by: Bingo
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: The deterioration of a fine system posted by Nick on September 05, 1997 at 18:32:05: Hey, we had red cars, they were made in England, we lost ours (1994), you should be glad you still have yours!
        
        Subject: Re: The deterioration of a fine system
        Message Number: 757917
        Posted by: Nathan
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: The deterioration of a fine system posted by Jeff on September 05, 1997 at 22:49:41: No, I was just in London, and , SHOCK HORROR!!! The London tubes were cleaner than the TTC tubes...apparently the entire system has just recieved a face lift, but yeah, there was security everywhere and I felt safer than I have on any other subway system.
        
        Subject: Re: The deterioration of a fine system
        Message Number: 757971
        Posted by: Brian Wolk
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:12 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: The deterioration of a fine system posted by Bingo on September 08, 1997 at 18:59:10: 1990 Bing, not 1994.

Thread title: New Subway Related News Site (757754)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:35:21 1997, by Subway-buff

Subject: New Subway Related News Site
Message Number: 757754
Posted by: Subway-buff
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:21 1997

I was browsing links and found www.dejanews.com. In the search field type nyc.transit. This usenet news group is similar to, but not as excellent as sub-talk. The only reason I feel it is worth the mention is that our own Mr. Pirmann has postings there! along with some of our other regulars. The search results are disp[ayed similar to Yahoo! complete with ads.
- Subject: Re: New Subway Related News Site
- Message Number: 757760
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:26 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]New Subway Related News Site posted by Subway-buff on September 04, 1997 at 20:23:23: nyc.transit is definitely an interesting newsgroup, and anyone interested in Subtalk should like it too. Unlike a lot of what one finds on Usenet, moreover, nyc.transit has very little spam and infrequent flamage. Misc.transport.urban-transit is another newsgroup worth a look. Big Don's LOOT postings are themselves worth the price of admission (not that there actually is a price ...)

Thread title: Name of new NYCTA Bus Depot? (757755)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:35:21 1997, by P.A.R.

Subject: Name of new NYCTA Bus Depot?
Message Number: 757755
Posted by: P.A.R.
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:21 1997

Does anyone know what the name of the old Greyhound Bus Terminal (on the Westside of Manhattan) will be once the rehabilitation of the structure is complete? Will the Transit Authority keep the "Greyhound" name or will it rename it to Hudson Depot, since it will actually replace the existing Hudson Depot on 12th Street and 11th Avenue. Thanks.
- Subject: Re: Name of new NYCTA Bus Depot?
- Message Number: 757761
- Posted by: Fernando Perez
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:26 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Name of new NYCTA Bus Depot? posted by P.A.R. on September 04, 1997 at 21:41:29: Greyhound will be called "Westside" depot. Rumors have it by January or March of next year 100 St. and Amsterdam depots will be moving in. And then Hudson will come in later on I hear the year 2001. I currently work in Amsterdam depot and everything is stillup in the air.
  - Subject: Re: Name of new NYCTA Bus Depot?
  - Message Number: 757772
  - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:35 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Name of new NYCTA Bus Depot? posted by P.A.R. on September 04, 1997 at 21:41:29: I believe it will be called 'Westside Depot' although possibilities have been to name it for a famous NY person (like Casey Stengel (Flushing) and Clara Hale (126st) At least the won't name it for royals...maybe Mother Theresa? -Hank
    - Subject: Re: Name of new NYCTA Bus Depot?
    - Message Number: 757790
    - Posted by: Fernando Perez
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:49 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Name of new NYCTA Bus Depot? posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 05, 1997 at 16:14:57: Mother Clara Hale depot is on 146St.
      - Subject: Re: Name of new NYCTA Bus Depot?
      - Message Number: 757797
      - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Name of new NYCTA Bus Depot? posted by Fernando Perez on September 06, 1997 at 01:22:39: You are correct. This is what I get for not checking facts... According to the 1997 insiders guide, the greyhound terminal will become 'West Side Depot' and will become active in 2002 when Hudson will be closed and a new 100st Depot is built. -Hank

Thread title: Pacific Electric LA Subway (757759)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:35:25 1997, by Zack

Subject: Pacific Electric LA Subway
Message Number: 757759
Posted by: Zack
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:25 1997

What happend to the old Pacific Electric Subway line in Los Angles????? Was it closed??? if So When???
- Subject: Re: Pacific Electric LA Subway
- Message Number: 757765
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:29 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Pacific Electric LA Subway posted by Zack on September 04, 1997 at 22:30:48: To the best of my knowledge, the trolley subway was a LARy operation. PE left downtown and ran East before splitting up into the various routes. LARy, the "yellow cars" had an underground terminal in the basement of, appropriately enough, the Subway Terminal building which still stands at the corner of Fourth and Hill. From there cars ran underground to Echo Park where they gained street access to Sunset Blvd. The tunnel portal is still there, and was used in the movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" as the entrance to "Toontown". I looked for the remains of the Terminal platforms in 1980, and was told they had been converted into office space for the Veterans Administration, but never did see the space to judge whether or not it was recognizable for what it had been.
  - Subject: Re: Pacific Electric LA Subway
  - Message Number: 757767
  - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:31 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Pacific Electric LA Subway posted by Gary Jacobi on September 05, 1997 at 11:38:11: Almost correct. The Subway Terminal was always a PE operation, not LARY. The narrow guage system never had a subway, being an all-surface system. The subway (actually a tunnel) was the entry for the Northern lines of PE to reach 6th & Main. After service was discontinued, PE stored their PCC's in it before selling them to Argentina. Also, the portal to Toontown in "Who Framed...." was not the PE subway, but one of the several highway tunnels in the LA metro area.
    - Subject: Re: Pacific Electric LA Subway
    - Message Number: 757800
    - Posted by: RAC93
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:56 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Pacific Electric LA Subway posted by Gary Jacobi on September 05, 1997 at 11:38:11: A funny thing about the Pacific Electric "System" is that they tore it down, in the 60's (if I'm not mistaken) as being obsolete, since the "new" freeways were being completed and bus systems were more flexible. Then again, if anyone reading this is from the L.A. area, the recently built Metro Blue Line from L.A.to Long Beach uses the same right of way as the Abandoned Pacific Electric "Red" Cars. In the L.A. County Library System, they have a video tape that I rented about 3 or 4 years ago that was about the "Red" Cars.
      - Subject: Re: Pacific Electric LA Subway
      - Message Number: 757916
      - Posted by: Nathan McCartney
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:28 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Pacific Electric LA Subway posted by Zack on September 04, 1997 at 22:30:48: The Pacific Electric was an interurban network, not a subway as we know it: As far as I know ridership peaked in the '20s and the system was completely closed by the '50s...

Thread title: Abandoned tracks near JFK (757768)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:35:32 1997, by John M.

Subject: Abandoned tracks near JFK
Message Number: 757768
Posted by: John M.
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:32 1997

I took to A train to JFK Airport last weekend, and I noticed, as the Far Rockaway line splits from the Lefferts line, there were abandoned elevated tracks heading north into Queens. These tracks actually continue between the Brooklyn/Manhattan bound A and the Rockaway bound A for a while. What were these tracks for? Where did they go? Were they part of the LIRR at one point? Are they being considered as a potential ROW in one of the airport light rail proposals? Thanks.
- Subject: Re: Abandoned tracks near JFK
- Message Number: 757769
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:33 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Abandoned tracks near JFK posted by John M. on September 05, 1997 at 13:26:17: These were the original LIRR tracks to Rockaway Beach. They split off from the main line from Penn Sta at Rego Park. There are many old posts here about there usefullness, or lack of same, for present day conversion.
  - Subject: Re: Abandoned tracks near JFK
  - Message Number: 757770
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:33 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Abandoned tracks near JFK posted by John M. on September 05, 1997 at 13:26:17: These were the original LIRR tracks to Rockaway Beach. They split off from the main line from Penn Sta at Rego Park. There are many old posts here about there usefullness, or lack of same, for present day conversion.
    - Subject: Re: Abandoned tracks near JFK
    - Message Number: 757771
    - Posted by: Peter Rosa
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:34 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Abandoned tracks near JFK posted by John M. on September 05, 1997 at 13:26:17: Those tracks you see are part of the LIRR's former Rockaway Division. The Division's tracks split off from the main line through Queens at "White Pot" junction, located between the Woodside and Forest Hills stations (remnants of the junction are still visible today), ran south through Forest Park, and continued across the Jamaica Bay trestle to the Rockaway peninsula. Around 1950 the LIRR transferred the southern part of the line, including the cross-bay trestle, to the subway, which now operates it as the A train (what you rode on). The portion between White Pot and the A train saw diminishing LIRR service until abandonment in the early 1960s. The abandoned line through Forest Park has been mentioned off and on as a candidate for rail service to JFK, but nothing's gone past the talk stage so far.
      - Subject: Re: Abandoned tracks near JFK
      - Message Number: 757813
      - Posted by: aaron
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:07 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Abandoned tracks near JFK posted by John M. on September 05, 1997 at 13:26:17: There was a book published about five years ago about the whole branch, I can't remember the name...
        
        Subject: Re: Abandoned tracks near JFK
        Message Number: 757816
        Posted by: Dave
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Abandoned tracks near JFK posted by aaron on September 08, 1997 at 08:56:12: can't remember the name...>> The name of the book is "Change at Ozone Park, A History and Description of the Long Island Rail Road Rockaway Branches," by Herbert George.

Thread title: Re: address change Bus Route Complex (757780)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:35:41 1997, by steve lowenthal

Subject: Re: address change Bus Route Complex
Message Number: 757780
Posted by: steve lowenthal
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:41 1997

In Reply to: [6]NYC Bus Routes posted by Steve Lowemthal on September 02, 1997 at 00:54:15: your assitance is again requested for the web site I will be creating.new address is http://members.tripod.com/~ROCKAWAY/index.html thank you again ====steve christof@webtv.net

Thread title: Speed vs Weight (757781)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:35:42 1997, by Steve

Subject: Speed vs Weight
Message Number: 757781
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:42 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Trains on Bridges posted by Mark S Feinman on September 02, 1997 at 12:24:33: One part of your posting is incorrect. It is a common misconception that a subway car/train's performance changes with load. This is absolutely not the case. Every subway car (on NYCT) has a device called a Load Sensor, mounted above the #1 truck. It continually weighs the car load and through a logic network, adjusts the propulsion and dynamic brake currents as well as the brake cylinder pressure. By doing this, an empty subway car (called AW0) and a fully loaded subway car (AW3) will accellerate, & brake at exactly the same rates and achieve the same top speeds.

Thread title: Subway museum (757788)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:35:47 1997, by Charley Bruns

Subject: Subway museum
Message Number: 757788
Posted by: Charley Bruns
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:47 1997

Is it true that there is a subway museum (or some kind of NYC transit authority museum) in Brooklyn or some other place in the city? Our family is interested in checking it out some Saturday, but we can't find any information on it (not a good sign). Does anyone know if this museum is fact or fiction? Anyone been there? We'd appreciate some information from someone who knows. Thanks!
- Subject: Re: Subway museum
- Message Number: 757789
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:48 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Subway museum posted by Charley Bruns on September 05, 1997 at 23:24:17: It definitely exists. You can find a web page about it on the official MTA site, [7]Just follow this here link. It is at the corner of Boerum Place and Schermerhorn Street and the closest subway station would be the Borough Hall station on the IRT 2/3/4/5, with Court Street M/N/R being the second closest. They have a number of exhibits and a whole slew of old subway cars. They coordinate a lot of tours of abandoned areas, run nostalgia trains, and all sorts of other things. Call them for info about the tours at 718-243-3060. --Dave
  - Subject: Re: Subway museum
  - Message Number: 757792
  - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:50 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway museum posted by David Pirmann on September 05, 1997 at 23:38:46: And let me tell you - this place is BEYOND worth it - if only because there is so much preserved rolling stock. Small question - does the TA have some sort of program to preserve subway history?? Or is it just coincedence that so much on it exists?
    - Subject: Re: Subway museum
    - Message Number: 757837
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:26 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway museum posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 06, 1997 at 02:13:02: > Small question - does the TA have some sort of program to preserve > subway history?? Or is it just coincedence that so much on it > exists? I think it's organizations like the Railway Preservation Corporation and employees of NYC Transit like Mike Hanna who are also subway buffs that are to thank for all the rolling stock that has been preserved, and restored. It's no coincidence. If it were up to NYC Transit, all of the old rolling stock would have been off the property long ago. (This is not to say anything bad about NYC Transit - their mission is to move people efficiently and safely from point A to point B - they are just simply not in the museum business of retaining rolling stock past its useful life). BTW, I think you're gonna see fantrips or Nostalgia Trains of the R1/9s, the BRT gate cars and the AB standards in the next few years, especially when we get closer to the NYC subway's centennial. Not bad for a museum that started as a temporary exhibit for the nation's bicentennial. --Mark
      - Subject: Re: Subway museum
      - Message Number: 757850
      - Posted by: Charley Bruns
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway museum posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 06, 1997 at 02:13:02: Thanks, Dave and Philip, for the information. I look forward to checking out the museum real soon.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway museum
        Message Number: 757866
        Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:49 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway museum posted by Mark S Feinman on September 09, 1997 at 12:38:43: At the museum they also have a tower and swithch machine that they use to demonstrate how they control interlockings. On the track they have arrows and such that point to the leading or trailing points of the turnout. When I work on Livingstion St I use to spend many lunches there. Miss it now that I am in Long Island City (well it is a short walk to the Sunnyside yards, for free). At that time it was just the cost of a token. Now I think it's $3 or so for adults. The web site posted in one of the messages is pretty good.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway museum
        Message Number: 757891
        Posted by: Don Steele
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Subway museum posted by Charley Bruns on September 05, 1997 at 23:24:17: I've been there a few times. I enjoyed walking through the older equipment. I believe in the summertime, there is an excursion to Rockaaway every Sunday.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway museum
        Message Number: 757894
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway museum posted by Don Steele on September 11, 1997 at 20:15:15: The weekly excursion ("Nostalgia") trains ended years ago. They now have them about 4 times a year to either ROckaway or Coney Island. From time to time other fan trips are run, like this upcoming weekend's IRT Low-V trip (sold out). --dave

Thread title: New Brooklyn Tunnel? (757796)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:35:53 1997, by Hank Eisenstein

Subject: New Brooklyn Tunnel?
Message Number: 757796
Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:53 1997

An article in today's NY Post indicates that a draft study has been done by the MTA on a tunnel to connect the Manhattan Bridge connecting tracks from DeKalb Av to the Jay St station, to go to Manhattan via the underused Cranberry St Tunnel. Text of story is as follows: MTA digs idea of new B'klyn tunnel-NY Post EXCLUSIVE by Bill Sanderson, Transit Reporter Transit planers are suggesting a new 1/2 mile subway tunnel in downtown Brooklyn that would ease train traffic over the city's frail East River Bridges. A draft study by Metropolitan Transportation Authority consultants proposes a $615 million subway link so some trains that now use the Manhattan Bridge could be re-routed through the F train's underused East River tunnel. The study sets no timetable for building the new tunnel, which would run between the DeKalb Avenue station to the Jay Street station. Jonathan Sigall, a transportation planner for the Permanent Citizens Advisory Committee to the MTA, said the proposal would ease a subway bottleneck in downtown brooklyn. "This is relatively low-cost and it's effective," says Sigall, who has reviewed the study. For years, two of the Manhattan Bridge's four subway tracks --previously used by the N train-- have been closed for major repairs. The planners question whether even after repairs the bridge will be sturdy enough for continued service by the B, D and Q trains. The study says that rerouting some Manhattan Bridge trains through the F train's tunnel would ease the strain on the bridge and offer an alternative route when the bridge is closed for repairs or emergencies. Repairs now underway should make the Williamsburg Bridge strong enough for the J, M, and Z trains that use it, the MTA's consultants say. Copyright 1997 NY Post, used without permission
- Subject: Re: New Brooklyn Tunnel?
- Message Number: 757808
- Posted by: Zack
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:03 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]New Brooklyn Tunnel? posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 07, 1997 at 00:45:32: heh, at least there planning for the future thoes bridges arnt going to live for long mabur there setting the framework for addintonial tunnel tracks and to replace the manhatten bridge???
  - Subject: Re: New Brooklyn Tunnel?
  - Message Number: 757815
  - Posted by: Dave
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:08 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: New Brooklyn Tunnel? posted by Zack on September 07, 1997 at 19:53:13: > Please, PLEASE use a spell checker!
    - Subject: Re: New Brooklyn Tunnel?
    - Message Number: 757818
    - Posted by: Daniel A. Valles
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:11 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]New Brooklyn Tunnel? posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 07, 1997 at 00:45:32: Replacing the Manhattan Bridge tracks? Great idea... Now, because of the technology that exists today, we could build subway tunnels sturdier and more efficient than when the subway system first started in 1904... However, let me add more oil to the flame... If the NYCTA is to do this, then why not complete the proposed 2nd Avenue line also... That way, it can offer another alternative to trains coming off the bridge (or the proposed tunnel) on their routes north... A good place for a "transfer hub" would be the Second Avenue station at Houston Street...
      - Subject: Re: New Brooklyn Tunnel?
      - Message Number: 757825
      - Posted by: Bryan Layne
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: New Brooklyn Tunnel? posted by Zack on September 07, 1997 at 19:53:13: Hey man,read your thing before you post it,this isnt a hukt on fonix website message board.
        
        Subject: Re: New Brooklyn Tunnel?
        Message Number: 757836
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]New Brooklyn Tunnel? posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 07, 1997 at 00:45:32: You know, it wouldn't surprise me if these MTA consultants read this board. I posted this idea here long ago (as part of the thread "what would the NYC subway be like in 2020" started by Michael Adler). The MTA has to start preparing now for the weight restrictions that will be put on the Manhattan Bridge over time because of its condition. I think in 5 years there will be truck weight restrictions placed on the bridge and it's only a matter of time before all trucks will be forced off the bridge. Subway trains can follow soon after that. The Williamsburgh will fare better because of the subway lines running on the center of the bridge (less twisting, though I'm no engineer) and it is currently undergoing renovations supposedly to last another 50 years. And some alternative has to be drawn up to handle the mess that will start when the north side of the bridge is taken out of service for "repairs". It'll make the N/R service changes look like child's play. Look how long the south side has been out. Imagine this on the north side. Here's some other food for thought: - keeping one track open on the north side during peak hours in the peak direction. Build temporary crossovers in the tunnels before the bridge approaches to enable the trains to switch to the track remaining in service. This track can be closed during off-peak hours. - rerouting Q express service via the F line; Q starts at Stillwell Avenue and runs express from Ave X to Jay Street. F local retains current route. D local retains current route. G local terminates at Church Ave and uses "yard" tracks south of the station for turnarounds. Possibly have a peak direction express service on the Brighton Line; at least this would reduce some of the traffic on the north side of the bridge. (Is it the Cranberry St tunnel or the Rutgers Street tunnel??) --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: New Brooklyn Tunnel?
        Message Number: 757840
        Posted by: Julio Perez
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:28 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: New Brooklyn Tunnel? posted by Daniel A. Valles on September 08, 1997 at 12:09:23: Hell, why not build the tunnel to Staten Island also? Last time I checked, Robert Moses was dead, anyway, so who'll complain?
        
        Subject: Re: New Brooklyn Tunnel?
        Message Number: 757855
        Posted by: bill
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]New Brooklyn Tunnel? posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 07, 1997 at 00:45:32: Wait. You're talking about the MTA right? The gang that couldn't shoot straight.... After messing up service on the G and Queens Blvd trains with the latest scam (the 63 tunnel connection), you are giving creedence to an organization that screws its riders royally, especially with unannounced service changes all in the name of progress. If the MTA had any brains whatsoever (and I highly doubt it), they would be able to create more reasonable service schedules for the line connection. Now do you really think they will do any better when it comes to a Jay St. connection? It makes too much sense for the MTA to do it. They'll also have to finish building the 2nd Ave station, and un-mothball the J,M,Z connection at Essex St. But forget about it. This is the MTA we're talking about.
        
        Subject: Re: New Brooklyn Tunnel?
        Message Number: 757870
        Posted by: Jeff
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]New Brooklyn Tunnel? posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 07, 1997 at 00:45:32: The MTA thinks that it is slick. I think that the manhattan bridge is no longer fit to carry trains like it used to. Ever notice that the northsied and southside tracks never operate at the same time. The mta is not telling us that the bridge is about to fall apart and that they want to slip out of a bad situation a.s.a.p.
        
        Subject: Re: New Brooklyn Tunnel?
        Message Number: 757939
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:47 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: New Brooklyn Tunnel? posted by Daniel A. Valles on September 08, 1997 at 12:09:23: HAH! I doubt if the city will EVER build anything as useful as the Second Avenue subway. The people simply aren't suffering enough.

Thread title: Running Fine (757804)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:36:00 1997, by BJ

Subject: Running Fine
Message Number: 757804
Posted by: BJ
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:00 1997

I was surprised to hear that the MTA is and almost has always been in debt. The CTA is also in debt. I don't really keep track or have any idea what agencies are not in debt. I was just wondering if there are any transit agencies that have been around for a long time and have never been in debt or only for a short time.
- Subject: Re: Running Fine
- Message Number: 757805
- Posted by: Mark Greenwald
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:01 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Running Fine posted by BJ on September 07, 1997 at 14:34:16: Find me a transit agency, that runs heavy rail, that isn't in debt. I don't think one exists.......
  - Subject: Re: Running Fine
  - Message Number: 757806
  - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:01 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Running Fine posted by BJ on September 07, 1997 at 14:34:16: I believe that the Maryland Mass Transit Administration (The operator of Baltimore's Bus, Heavy Rail, Light Rail and Commuter Rail (MARC) services is not "in debt". MTA's funding comes 50% from the State and Federal transit budgets and 50% from the farebox. The March, 1996 fare increase (to $1.35 per ride / no transfers /$3.00 Day Pass) has resulted in a 9-10% increase in passengers/revenue (almost 9% on buses) means somebody seems to be doing the right thing.
    - Subject: Re: Running Fine
    - Message Number: 757810
    - Posted by: Mark Greenwald
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:05 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Running Fine posted by Dan Lawrence on September 07, 1997 at 17:16:02: That's an interesting point Dan. The thing that stands out to me is that unlike other systems that are left to basically stand on their on as separate agency's, The Baltimore systems all are a part of the state which can tap into other resources within its transportation coffers. It does sound like a better way and more secure way to run a system. One thing though, it's not immune to some of the woes that other transit systems are subject to....case in point, compare the original plans for the Baltimore Metro that were laid out in the early 70's to what actually exists...and look at the woes NY has had with the 2nd Ave. subway. Granted, both items went through different means that led to their demise...BUT...the common theme was the lack of $$$$. I have a personal copy of the plans that were laid out in 1971 for a 5 line system. E-mail me for more details if you're interested, I'm in the process though of trying to put together a piece for Dave on "The biggest subway never built".
      - Subject: Re: Running Fine
      - Message Number: 757812
      - Posted by: Bill J
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Running Fine posted by Mark Greenwald on September 07, 1997 at 14:54:20: Acutally there isn't any form of transportation that really pays for itself. Barges run in waterways maintained by the Corps of Engineers, Busses run on federal and state funded hiways with "signal systems" paid for by local, state and federal moneys, etc... Even motorists get free traffic advisories, maps, hiways, cheap fuel, .... So, I guess "running at a deficit" is kind of a meaningless phrase. Bill
        
        Subject: Re: Running Fine
        Message Number: 757817
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:10 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Running Fine posted by BJ on September 07, 1997 at 14:34:16: Being in debt is not a sign of fiscal weakness. Keep in mind that virtually all businesses issue stock certificates, which is a form of debt. What is significant is that 88% of every ride on the NYCT (1996) was paid for out of the fare box. That is one of the best if not the best in the US. It's likely one of the best in the world. In 1998, the NYCT will likely receive no Federal Operating Subsidy.
        
        Subject: Re: Running Fine
        Message Number: 757820
        Posted by: Fernando Perez
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:12 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Running Fine posted by Steve on September 08, 1997 at 10:36:45: Actually, this year the MTA had a surplus and is the reason why free transfers were implented this year. Of course the cuts of September 95 is what made this surplus. Now we need to see if the free transfers will be remain especially if federal aid is cut. In the United States, NYC bus and subway riders pay more for expenses than any other transit system which was 72% last year.
        
        Subject: Re: Running Fine
        Message Number: 757833
        Posted by: Dave
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:22 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Running Fine posted by Steve on September 08, 1997 at 10:36:45: > This is incorrect. Stock equals equity, an investment in a business. No interest payments are due to stockholders because the investment is not a loan; the certificate represents ownership in the company. Unless the investor bought shares from the company at the initial public offering, the investor is actually buying his shares from someone who is selling them. "Debt" is a loan to a company on which interest must be paid and the loan principal paid back, just like a car loan or a mortgage.
        
        Subject: Re: Running Fine
        Message Number: 757848
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:35 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Running Fine posted by Dave on September 09, 1997 at 09:03:42: You are quite correct and I stand corrected.
        
        Subject: Re: Running Fine
        Message Number: 757860
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Running Fine posted by Dave on September 09, 1997 at 09:03:42: From the standpoint of private businesses, stock indeed is equity rather than debt. However, many businesses do have a significant amount of debt - I believe Time Warner has something like $9 billion. So the

Thread title: Re: Running Fine/ Baltimore (757811)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:36:05 1997, by Dan Lawrence

Subject: Re: Running Fine/ Baltimore
Message Number: 757811
Posted by: Dan Lawrence
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:05 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: Running Fine posted by Mark Greenwald on September 07, 1997 at 22:58:00: Actually, the Baltimore subway plans vs. what was built was not money related, but a victim of local politics (the South and North lines (finally built as light rail) were killed by local pols) and the single line that was built fell vitim to Congress's reluctance to fund any other full system after the massive cost overruns of the Washington Metro. The Hopkins extension was built with diverted highway funds and the Central Light Rail Line was built with state funds to avoid the lenghty Federal environmental studies. The three extensions were built with Fed money (the studies for these three extensions actually began in 1992 as the main line was being readied for opening.

Thread title: What happened today?? (757821)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:36:13 1997, by Stephanie Fischer

Subject: What happened today??
Message Number: 757821
Posted by: Stephanie Fischer
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:13 1997

This morning while trying to transfer to the 2/3 at Atlantic Avenue, the Manhattan bound 2,3,4, and 5 trains were not running and the electricity was shut off. I am curious to know if 2 people (I know 1 did) jumped in front of the oncoming subway (5 train) and if it was 2 people what was their medical status and was it a suicide pact?
- Subject: Re: What happened today??
- Message Number: 757830
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:20 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]What happened today?? posted by Stephanie Fischer on September 08, 1997 at 14:02:54: As of about 8:30 pm, the WCBS-FM Web site doesn't have anything about this incident (though it features a story about a jumper off the S.I. Ferry). I find it a bit surprising, as the site usually gives a lot of play to subway accidents/crimes etc.
  - Subject: Re: What happened today??
  - Message Number: 757847
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:33 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]What happened today?? posted by Stephanie Fischer on September 08, 1997 at 14:02:54: A lone female jumped at the Atlantic Ave. Station. She was pronounced dead at the scene.
    - Subject: Re: What happened today??
    - Message Number: 757857
    - Posted by: guest
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:42 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]What happened today?? posted by Stephanie Fischer on September 08, 1997 at 14:02:54:

Thread title: Pointing (757823)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:36:15 1997, by Robert Melstein

Subject: Pointing
Message Number: 757823
Posted by: Robert Melstein
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:15 1997

Why do the subway conductors point at the video screens when the enter a station? I saw one of the TV screens say "Remember to Point!!" Is it a safety issue?
- Subject: Re: Pointing
- Message Number: 757826
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:17 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Pointing posted by Robert Melstein on September 08, 1997 at 16:54:35: NYCT conductors are required to point at the Conductor's boards, the thin boards with the diagonal black & white bars, before they open the doors at a station. The reason that conductors must 'point' before opening is to insure that both ends of the train are in the station and that the Conductor is opening on the proper side of the train. It is a purely safety related measure. However, this should not lead one to the conclusion that NYCT conductors are careless or in someway more prone to mistakes. Many systems, world-wide, use a similar approach. In fact, in Japan, motormen salute the signals befoe leaving a station.
  - Subject: Re: Pointing
  - Message Number: 757831
  - Posted by: Fernando Perez
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:21 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Pointing posted by Steve on September 08, 1997 at 17:41:55: Hey, since were bringing the ideas of the Tokyo subway system here, why not hire guys to shove people on the Lexington and Queens Blvd lines in the morning rush!
    - Subject: Re: Pointing
    - Message Number: 757846
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:33 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Pointing posted by Fernando Perez on September 09, 1997 at 03:05:26: In a word - lawsuits. We in the west have a different idea about being shoved in the back by strangers.

Thread title: Fastest Subway system (757824)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:36:16 1997, by BJ

Subject: Fastest Subway system
Message Number: 757824
Posted by: BJ
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:16 1997

What is the fastest Subway/Rapid transit system in the world. I know this proabably has been asked before, but I never noticed it. What I mean by fastest is the top speed reached. I know BART can do eighty, but they usually only go just under 70. I mean what system goes the fastest on a regular basis Also whats the fastest in the US? Thanks in advance
- Subject: Re: Fastest Subway system
- Message Number: 757835
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:24 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Fastest Subway system posted by BJ on September 08, 1997 at 17:21:48: Fastest in the world? I'll have to give that some thought. Fastest in the US? I'd have to say it's either BART, WMATA (Washington DC) or PATCO's Lindenwold Line in NJ. I thought BART trains could do 80 mph in the TransBay Tube. --Mark
  - Subject: Re: Fastest Subway system
  - Message Number: 757839
  - Posted by: Julio Perez
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:27 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Fastest Subway system posted by Mark S Feinman on September 09, 1997 at 11:58:41: BART may be the fastest, but it's also considered--are you ready for this??--LIGHT RAIL. That's because the cars each weigh about 30 tons and are made out of aluminum. So, you may want to qualify your question by which is the fastest heavy rail-based subway system, both in the US and abroad.
    - Subject: Re: Fastest Subway system
    - Message Number: 757851
    - Posted by: Andrew Byler
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:37 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Fastest Subway system posted by Mark S Feinman on September 09, 1997 at 11:58:41: As I pointed out before, the fastest permitted track speed in a tunnel under the streets is 70 mph on Philadelphia's Broad St. line express service. Out of the ground, WMATA, MARTA, and the MTA (Baltimore) all do 70 mph. PATCO does 75 mph. I do not know what BART's speed is. The Philadelphia and Western (SEPTA's Norristown High Speed Line to those not in the know - the true last interurban in the country) is good for at least 70 mph and possibly more. The old Bullet cars were tested at speeds up to 92 mph on the property - a feat certainly matched by the Libertyliner (nee Electroliner) equipment. The line itself is quite impressive, with superelevation up to 8 inches (mainline railroads are limited to 6). Andy Byler
      - Subject: Re: Fastest Subway system
      - Message Number: 757853
      - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Fastest Subway system posted by Andrew Byler on September 09, 1997 at 22:43:30: As for heavy rail, the LIRR electrics can do upto 80, and I've been on New Haven line MN trains that were doing 90. Fastest I've been on yet was a SEPTA Trenton line train that just about broke 95 at one point. The MTA's M1s and 3s are supposed to be able to do 110 (although one engineer I told that to mentioned that the train cars would probbly fall apart first :) And I've heard 120 as a top end for the M 2s, 4s, and 6s. Some of the NYC subway cars (R 46???) were tested to 80 on the LIRR, and I think Path does 50 - 60 on the surface parts to Newark. Intersetingly, I've heard the old Lacawanna (3kv DC) MU's could only do 70 on a flat track. What I'd like to know, however, is what the top speeds on the LIRR MP-54's were, and what the normal running speeds of them were. As for BART, I think 80 is the top speed, but I've heard that the trains never really do go that fast. Other question: Is the Metro (D.C.) standard guage???. For than matter, how many cites beides SF and Philly run nonstandard guage equipment??
        
        Subject: Re: Fastest Subway system
        Message Number: 757861
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Fastest Subway system posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 09, 1997 at 23:01:49: Other than Market-Frankford (5'2/1/2") and BART, every other subway/heavy rail is standard guage.
        
        Subject: Re: Fastest Subway system
        Message Number: 757865
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:48 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Fastest Subway system posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 09, 1997 at 23:01:49: WMATA (Wash. DC) is standard gauge. At NYCTA it was a train of R-44's that tested at 83 MPH. With the latest round of speed restrictions implememted by the NYCTA you'd be lucky to see them do more half of 83 MPH.

Thread title: Search Engine Upgraded (757832)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:36:22 1997, by David Pirmann - Web Site Host

Subject: Search Engine Upgraded
Message Number: 757832
Posted by: David Pirmann - Web Site Host
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:22 1997

Hello folks, I've upgraded the search engine on the home page to WebGlimpse, from the University of Arizona. (It replaces Excite for Web Servers 1.0.) Recently I've been converting a lot of the pages to be generated by CGI scripts and the Excite search engine didn't know how to handle these. The Glimpse search engine pulls all the pages from the server so that the CGI pages are fully expanded before being indexed. Check it out on the home page. -Dave
- Subject: Re: Search Engine Upgraded
- Message Number: 757843
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:30 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Search Engine Upgraded posted by David Pirmann - Web Site Host on September 09, 1997 at 08:23:38: One more note, (actually two) 1. the new search engine isn't as "smart" as the old one with phrases. For instance if you want to know about subway fares, try just searching for "fare". As I become more familiar with Glimpse, I'll try to make it more reasonable.. 2. I added a selected bunch of offsite documents to the search engine, so for instance if you searched for "fare" you'd get a hit back from the MTA web site. Offsite links are clearly marked on the returned list of hits. Comments welcome. -Dave

Thread title: Re: The deterioration of a fine system/Gloucesters (757841)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:36:29 1997, by Dan Lawrence

Subject: Re: The deterioration of a fine system/Gloucesters
Message Number: 757841
Posted by: Dan Lawrence
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:29 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: The deterioration of a fine system posted by Bingo on September 08, 1997 at 18:59:10: Ah, the Gloucesters ... Slow, heavy (remember those concrete floors) and the fact that the M-1's had the low rate setting so that they wouldn't overrun a leading train of G's. Oh, yes, remember motormen who used to lean on the controller handle with their elbows going up the hil from Summerhill to St. Clair? One thing about the British - they have the ability to make anything heavier than it has to be.
- Subject: Re: The deterioration of a fine system/Gloucesters
- Message Number: 757919
- Posted by: Nathan
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:31 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: The deterioration of a fine system/Gloucesters posted by Dan Lawrence on September 09, 1997 at 15:25:33: I remember them well, one of my relatives was a motorman on those things and they were SLOW!! The point is, though, the G-1's looked way nicer (and somewhat sleeker) in the Toronto tubes than those new, grotesque, lumbering silver things ever will. I was on one of the new T-1's this summer, happy to see that red had been brought back into the system.... and to dare, they still market themselves as the red rocket... grrrrr
  - Subject: Re: The deterioration of a fine system/Gloucesters
  - Message Number: 757920
  - Posted by: Nathan
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:31 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: The deterioration of a fine system/Gloucesters posted by Dan Lawrence on September 09, 1997 at 15:25:33: I remember them well, one of my relatives was a motorman on those things and they were SLOW!! The point is, though, the G-1's looked way nicer (and somewhat sleeker) in the Toronto tubes than those new, grotesque, lumbering silver things ever will. I was on one of the new T-1's this summer, happy to see that red had been brought back into the system (red seats, relish small pleasures, no more woodgrain!!!).... and to dare, they still market themselves as the red rocket... grrrrr
    - Subject: Re: The deterioration of a fine system/Gloucesters
    - Message Number: 757973
    - Posted by: Brian Wolk
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:14 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: The deterioration of a fine system/Gloucesters posted by Nathan on September 12, 1997 at 19:02:30: Oh the memories!! When I was young and downtown with my parents, I use to make them wait for a "red subway" or I wouldn't go... http://web.idirect.com/~ttc/g1_3.jpg
      - Subject: Re: The deterioration of a fine system/Gloucesters
      - Message Number: 757976
      - Posted by: Brian Wolk
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: The deterioration of a fine system/Gloucesters posted by Nathan on September 12, 1997 at 19:02:30: Good to hear you back, Nathan. A couple questions: Did you witness the opening of the Spadina LRT? Did you visit Downsview station? Most importantly, did you finally see those pesky little unpainted G-trains that you wanted to so badly for so long?

Thread title: BART vs Commute from Hell (757844)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:36:31 1997, by Charlie Bonaire

Subject: BART vs Commute from Hell
Message Number: 757844
Posted by: Charlie Bonaire
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:31 1997

I've been watching the news of the BART strike and accompanying pictures of massive traffic jams. Having just returned from a few weeks in the Bay Area, I can commiserate. On the best days traffic is hell (and there is nowhere to park!). But it's my observation that a sizeable portion of traffic is from the Peninsula. BART stops at Daly City, but it's needed clear down to Stanford, and perhaps to San Jose as well. And a spur into Marin County just makes sense. Anyone know if BART plans to expand, or does that make too much sense?
- Subject: Re: BART vs Commute from Hell
- Message Number: 757849
- Posted by: Ted
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:36 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]BART vs Commute from Hell posted by Charlie Bonaire on September 09, 1997 at 20:33:27: Charlie , There are plans for a 8.2 mile extension from the existing Colma station to SF International Airport. The extension could be in service in the year 2000. I agree with you that a longer extension to serve southern communities ( like Stanford ) is needed. Ted
  - Subject: Re: BART vs Commute from Hell
  - Message Number: 757862
  - Posted by: John M.
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:46 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]BART vs Commute from Hell posted by Charlie Bonaire on September 09, 1997 at 20:33:27: I'm not super familiar with the San Francisco area or the BART system, doesn't the CalTrain extend from SF to San Jose with a stop in Palo Alto (near Stanford). Is the CalTrain part of BART, or is it a separate system?
    - Subject: Re: BART vs Commute from Hell
    - Message Number: 757873
    - Posted by: david vartanoff
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:54 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: BART vs Commute from Hell posted by Ted on September 09, 1997 at 21:56:18: Building BART down the Peninsula is analagous to running the PATH to some location already serrved by NJT on the Corridor because you were dissatisfied with the ridership on the mainline trains. CalTrain former SP service extends south of SAN Jose to Gilroy. As usual the problems are lack of connectivity, preference for autos, AND low density widely dispersed employment and housing oportunities. Think living inTenafly and commuting to a job inNew Rochelle, or perhaps living inHoboken and working at Bridgewater Commons(287 & 78). Also remember BART was deliberately built to a unique track guage and so EVERYTHING costs extra. And yes the commute today in and out of SF was a pain, but I will do it again tomorrow..
      - Subject: Re: BART vs Commute from Hell
      - Message Number: 757899
      - Posted by: Charlie Bonaire
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: BART vs Commute from Hell posted by david vartanoff on September 11, 1997 at 02:27:39: I concede your point, David. But my experience with CalTrans isn't too good either. When I lived in San Carlos, service was cut back and I wound up taking the bus. Some people don't mind the bus, but I would rather step on a nail.

Thread title: cta vistiors pass (757863)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:36:46 1997, by aaron

Subject: cta vistiors pass
Message Number: 757863
Posted by: aaron
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:46 1997

Where can I buy the pass at O'hare? I would assume at the entrance to the "L" station, if not, please advise.
- Subject: Re: cta vistiors pass
- Message Number: 757869
- Posted by: BJ
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:51 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]cta vistiors pass posted by aaron on September 10, 1997 at 11:16:38: Check the CTA's web page to be sure, but I'm pretty sure I read they are available at the airport. Call the RTA Travel Chicago Info center @: 312-836-7000 they handle all CTA Metra and Pace questions
  - Subject: Re: cta vistiors pass
  - Message Number: 757959
  - Posted by: Brian Wolk
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:03 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]cta vistiors pass posted by aaron on September 10, 1997 at 11:16:38: You CAN'T buy it at O'Hare! It's only available at hotels, like the O'Hare Hilton. The problem is, CTA Visitors Pass isn't readily available. It's a first come, first serve kind of thing, every Monday morning. I was in Chicago the week before Labour Day and I spent 4 hours walking from hotel to hotel in the downtown area looking for one. The problem is, no one is sure where to get it.

Thread title: City Hall Station opening to public? (757867)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:36:50 1997, by Bob A

Subject: City Hall Station opening to public?
Message Number: 757867
Posted by: Bob A
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:50 1997

I thought the City Hall station was supposed to be opening to the public in August. I went to Brooklny Bridge station the other day and asked around but no one (token clerks, motororman and conductor) knew what I was talking about! Anybody know what the story is?
- Subject: Re: City Hall Station opening to public?
- Message Number: 757868
- Posted by: Allan
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:50 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]City Hall Station opening to public? posted by Bob A on September 10, 1997 at 18:19:10: The latest I heard is sometime next year (possibly). The usual excuses being given: funding problems, construction problems etc. My feeling - look to 1999 (if someone in the TA bureaucracy doesn't find some way to kill the project altogether and reroute the funding).
  - Subject: Re: City Hall Station opening to public?
  - Message Number: 757871
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:53 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: City Hall Station opening to public? posted by Allan on September 10, 1997 at 19:44:51: Another possible cause for the delays in opening the station is the upheaval at the Transit Museum (well-documented here and on nyc.transit).
    - Subject: Re: City Hall Station opening to public?
    - Message Number: 757875
    - Posted by: Charles Fiori
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:56 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: City Hall Station opening to public? posted by Peter Rosa on September 10, 1997 at 21:28:26: Please advise as to what upheaval at the Transit Museum. As one who remembers going there when R46 680-81 in Bicentennial get-up were there, I'd like to know. Thanks.
      - Subject: Re: City Hall Station opening to public?
      - Message Number: 757876
      - Posted by: David Pirmann
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: City Hall Station opening to public? posted by Charles Fiori on September 11, 1997 at 07:34:29: Read the archives for details but in short, almost the entire staff quit, including the education department, and they are slowly being replaced. At least one opening at the curatorial level existed too (there was a job posting for it on the MTA site). Word has it the gift shop is being outsourced, and some projects (including City Hall) got put on hold.
        
        Subject: Re: City Hall Station opening to public?
        Message Number: 757880
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: City Hall Station opening to public? posted by David Pirmann on September 11, 1997 at 08:04:32: Does it pre-date your interest, or do you remember people like Marvin Sommerfield, Aubrey Surgeon, et al?

Thread title: MPLS PCC CARS?? (757872)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:36:53 1997, by Joe M

Subject: MPLS PCC CARS??
Message Number: 757872
Posted by: Joe M
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:53 1997

I am trying to determine the color scheme of the Minneapolis PCC cars before they went to Cleveland and Newark. Does anyone have a color picture?
- Subject: Re: MPLS PCC CARS??
- Message Number: 757944
- Posted by: Charlie Bonaire
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:51 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]MPLS PCC CARS?? posted by Joe M on September 10, 1997 at 23:24:48: Yow, that would have been in 1952. If you find one, Joe, please let me know. (I know that Public Service in Newark painted theirs a nice gray and white).
  - Subject: Re: MPLS PCC CARS??
  - Message Number: 757977
  - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:17 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]MPLS PCC CARS?? posted by Joe M on September 10, 1997 at 23:24:48: Check with the Minnesota Transportation Museum. Their Traction Division is restoring TCRT 322, so they have the correct color scheme.
    - Subject: Re: MPLS PCC CARS??
    - Message Number: 757999
    - Posted by: Joe M
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:34 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: MPLS PCC CARS?? posted by Charlie Bonaire on September 13, 1997 at 11:05:41: I have learned that the Mpls PCC cars were canary yellow with forrest green trim and red oxide roofs. Still no pictures but the scheme would be about the same as the older car shown at the Hake Harriet Station at the Minnesota Trasnportation Museum web site. I will let you know if I find any more. Still lookig for a picture though

Thread title: Metro North Open shops??? (757874)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:36:55 1997, by Philip Nasadowski

Subject: Metro North Open shops???
Message Number: 757874
Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:55 1997

Does anyone know if Metro North is having another Open house at their Crton-Harmon shops this year?? I know they had them the past few years, and I want to know if and when it's happening this year (so I can plan my life around it :)
- Subject: Re: Metro North Open shops???
- Message Number: 757877
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:57 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Metro North Open shops??? posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 11, 1997 at 02:28:48: I think it was last spring around the same time as Hoboken "Try Transit" Festival, but I could be mistaken.
  - Subject: Re: Metro North Open shops???
  - Message Number: 757882
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:01 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Metro North Open shops??? posted by David Pirmann on September 11, 1997 at 08:07:32: The Croton-Harmon open house is usually held in the fall, either at the end of October or sometime in November. I don't know when it is this year. --Mark
    - Subject: Re: Metro North Open shops???
    - Message Number: 757940
    - Posted by: Andrew Huie
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:48 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Metro North Open shops??? posted by Mark S Feinman on September 11, 1997 at 12:29:04: Was there one last year? I checked the Transit Museum guide (that's how I found out the year before) and the Metro-North list of events but didn't see it for last fall. Will they be having one this year? And is there a reliable source of NY metropolitan area transit events?
      - Subject: Re: Metro North Open shops???
      - Message Number: 757960
      - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Metro North Open shops??? posted by Andrew Huie on September 13, 1997 at 03:56:04: Actually, I DID find the date!!! It's around Oct 18th, and the actual date is lisated in this months "Mileposts" newsletter. You can pick it up the next time your in GCT, just go to a Metro North platform and you should find them. I think it's also on the web at the MTA's web site...
        
        Subject: Re: Metro North Open shops???
        Message Number: 758003
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Metro North Open shops??? posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 13, 1997 at 23:45:10: AIEEE!! I mean, thanks for the info 8-). I will check it out when I head up to GCT.

Thread title: Looking for subway anecdotes (757881)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:37:01 1997, by Steve Earley

Subject: Looking for subway anecdotes
Message Number: 757881
Posted by: Steve Earley
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:01 1997

Hello, I am a senior at Rutgers University and am doing my honors thesis on the culture of the New York City subway system. I am looking for any amusing or interesting anecdotes, stories, experiences, etc., that riders have witnessed on the New York City subway. You can either post to the bulletin board or email directly to me at: mcstevo@eden.rutgers.edu. Thank you. Steve Earley
- Subject: Re: Looking for subway anecdotes
- Message Number: 757893
- Posted by: Bryan Layne
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:10 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Looking for subway anecdotes posted by Steve Earley on September 11, 1997 at 12:17:35: Be sure to throw in the Graffiti days....even though terrible,really for the subway and the city it was a major highlight in the systems' history.
  - Subject: Re: Looking for subway anecdotes
  - Message Number: 757907
  - Posted by: Mark Greenwald
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:21 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Looking for subway anecdotes posted by Steve Earley on September 11, 1997 at 12:17:35: If you have access to HBO-----watch "subway stories". It does highlight a few of the more unusual things that can happen on the system. Although, it is not completely accurate in the station names and such but it does give you an idea of the types of things that can happen.

Thread title: Hoboken Festival (757883)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:37:02 1997, by Wayne Johnson

Subject: Hoboken Festival
Message Number: 757883
Posted by: Wayne Johnson
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:02 1997

I know that thee was a Hoboken Festival this Spring. Does anyone know if they will have the usual Hoboken Festival this Fall or has it been moved to the Spring permanently. If there is one this fall can you also give us the date. Thanks, Wayne
- Subject: Re: Hoboken Festival
- Message Number: 757885
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:04 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Hoboken Festival posted by Wayne Johnson on September 11, 1997 at 12:38:00: I think it has been permanently moved to the spring to coincide with the national "Try Transit Week". They certainly won't have another one this year.. --Dave

Thread title: BART update (757888)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:37:06 1997, by Gary Jacobi

Subject: BART update
Message Number: 757888
Posted by: Gary Jacobi
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:06 1997

Is Mike Quill reincarnated and living in Oakland? Yesterday the participants in the negotiations started yelling at each other and walking out of talks. Can jail be far behind? Many commuters who took the first few days off in hopes it would be a short strike are now rejoining the mobs on the Bay Bridge. Leaving early proved to be no solution on Monday and Tuesday; believe it or not, going LATE is effective (8:30 or 9), or at least it was yesterday.

Thread title: Historic Cars on the CTA? (757889)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:37:07 1997, by Brian from Chi town

Subject: Historic Cars on the CTA?
Message Number: 757889
Posted by: Brian from Chi town
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:07 1997

I briefly overheard on the WGN Morning news that the CTA will be running some historic cars on the Red Line. ( Howard Street to 95/Dan Ryan) I have no idea what the number codes like R63 you guys use mean. I think they are the red birds possibly. Anyway I just overheard it, but I think they will be running just till the end of this year.
- Subject: Re: Historic Cars on the CTA?
- Message Number: 757892
- Posted by: Bryan Layne
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:09 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Historic Cars on the CTA? posted by Brian from Chi town on September 11, 1997 at 17:05:01: You say your from Chicago....than what the heck are you talking about?Redbirds?....explain yourself....what class??? Are you thinking about the Red and white "Flying bird" cars (only a small amount)from the 6000 series? I'm only 15 and know everything there is about the CTA....please be more clear next time.......
  - Subject: Re: Historic Cars on the CTA?
  - Message Number: 757904
  - Posted by: aaron
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:19 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Historic Cars on the CTA? posted by Bryan Layne on September 11, 1997 at 20:43:12: I don't know of any Red and white "Flying bird" cars from the 6000 series. Please be more specific. I am 38 and DON'T know everything. If you are 15, these cars probably were retired before you were born!
    - Subject: Re: Historic Cars on the CTA?
    - Message Number: 757906
    - Posted by: Ed Sachs
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:20 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Historic Cars on the CTA? posted by aaron on September 12, 1997 at 09:10:43: Isn't it amazing that 15 year olds know everything. It seems the older I get, the less I know (or perhaps, I'm finding more things I don't know). - a parent of two teens and and ex-teen.
      - Subject: Re: Historic Cars on the CTA?
      - Message Number: 757921
      - Posted by: Bryan Layne
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:32 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Historic Cars on the CTA? posted by aaron on September 12, 1997 at 09:10:43: What..does age determine knowledge now? The cars im talking about were in the 6000 series and a few were painted a special red and white wings livery sometime in the 60's...... So what if i wasnt born when they were around....do you have to be dead for 200 years to know about George Washington? Have you ever read the Chicago Transit Authority books...both of them? All i'm saying is please dont make it look like,since im 15,i dont know what im talking about,please!thats pretty stereotypical.
        
        Subject: Re: Historic Cars on the CTA?
        Message Number: 757966
        Posted by: Brian from Chitown
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Historic Cars on the CTA? posted by Brian from Chi town on September 11, 1997 at 17:05:01: Hey, my question wasn't what your age is, just if you had any info onthe historic cars running on the CTA. I only overheard the story briefly so some of the info may have been wrong! But if you know anything about it please post it!

Thread title: PATCHES (757895)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:37:12 1997, by Bryan Layne

Subject: PATCHES
Message Number: 757895
Posted by: Bryan Layne
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:12 1997

Iwas recently at the Transit Museum in Brooklyn (on vacation with my parents)and bought a "IND Lines" patch...it was about a dollar....anyway,i should have gotten more than one and i regret not......does the Transit Museum do mailorders? Also,i was at one of the numerous Army/Navy surplus stores around the corner from the Canal Street station on Canal and bought a NYCTA emblum patch.It had the (outdated)Two-tone "M",NYCT around the top and "station department" on the bottom.Its the coolest patch and i got home and put it on my bookbag along with the "IND Lines"...people have asked about them and i'd happily tell them.....just thought id tell you that.
- Subject: Re: PATCHES
- Message Number: 757930
- Posted by: Allan
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:39 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]PATCHES posted by Bryan Layne on September 11, 1997 at 20:56:33: The Museum currently does not accept mail orders

Thread title: Department of buses update (757897)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:37:13 1997, by Fernando Perez

Subject: Department of buses update
Message Number: 757897
Posted by: Fernando Perez
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:13 1997

A new 12.4 Billion dollar budget has been approved for the Department of buses. Included in the plan will be 400 new 40 foot buses, 400 natural gas, and 220 articulates to go to 126 St. depot and Flatbush depot. Jackie Gleason depot will get a new natural gas filling station for the CNG's and 100 St. will be rebuilt. Also a friend of mine who is a operator at Kingsbridge depot said about 50 to 100 of thier Orions are going to Staten Island, to make room for more articulates.
- Subject: Re: Department of buses update
- Message Number: 757898
- Posted by: Bryan Layne
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:14 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Department of buses update posted by Fernando Perez on September 11, 1997 at 22:20:14: What bus manufacturer have they awarded these to?
  - Subject: Re: Department of buses update
  - Message Number: 757901
  - Posted by: Fernando Perez
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:16 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Department of buses update posted by Bryan Layne on September 11, 1997 at 23:03:48: Most likely the CNG's will be Orions. The Articulates will be New Flyers. As far as the 40 footers is concerned it probably will be Nova and maybe some Low Floors from New Flyer.
    - Subject: Re: Department of buses update
    - Message Number: 757905
    - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:19 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Department of buses update posted by Fernando Perez on September 11, 1997 at 22:20:14: At this point Kingsbridge only has about 60 Orions left (most were sent to Casey Stengel). It seems that the TA is makeing an effort to have "Orion" depots. Nearly all (maybe all of them by now) at Casey Stengel are Orions and I'm guessing that the Kingsbridge buses would be sent to Castleton Depot which already have a large number of Orions also. Is it safe to assume that Kingsbridge retain several (at least 100) RTS's for their routes that don't use articulateds?
      - Subject: Re: Department of buses update
      - Message Number: 757922
      - Posted by: BRYANLAYNE
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Department of buses update posted by Fernando Perez on September 12, 1997 at 04:48:04: i just cant get into the cng's or the low floor buses.Neither is atractive and the CNG's are particularly ugly.Anybody else agree with me?
        
        Subject: Re: Department of buses update
        Message Number: 757924
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:34 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Department of buses update posted by Fernando Perez on September 11, 1997 at 22:20:14: Yes, several Kingsbridge Orion V's (numbered from 220 and up) have been transfered to the Castleton Depot. 1981 RTS's have moved from Castleton to Yukon, and many of Yukon's '81 RTS' are being shopped to ENY for overhaul. (1200 series) -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: Department of buses update
        Message Number: 757925
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:35 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Department of buses update posted by BRYANLAYNE on September 12, 1997 at 19:28:32: I honestly don't care WHAT the bus looks like, as long as it arrives on time and is clean on the inside. -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: Department of buses update
        Message Number: 757928
        Posted by: Zack
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Department of buses update posted by BRYANLAYNE on September 12, 1997 at 19:28:32: up in Tavcoma Wa they thve some Orion citycrusers and orion V's that are CNG their nickname are "slugs" some on the 444+ sound Horrible the Orion V's reguary do 55+ as they go to seattle on a routune basis (and there NICE too!!!! Air conditiong)
        
        Subject: Re: Department of buses update
        Message Number: 757931
        Posted by: Fernando Perez
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Department of buses update posted by BRYANLAYNE on September 12, 1997 at 19:28:32: Correction. 600 40 foot buses are going to be purchased and Coliseum Depot is going to be rebuilt. On Sunday October 5 from 1 to 5 pm Transit will have some antique buses on display at 130 Livingston St. for a Transit family day.
        
        Subject: Re: Department of buses update
        Message Number: 757932
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Department of buses update posted by BRYANLAYNE on September 12, 1997 at 19:28:32: Nova makes a low floor CNG with the tanks under the floor too. They look like a regular RTS except for no smoke Kenosha has 12 Austin TX has over 30
        
        Subject: Re: Department of buses update
        Message Number: 757948
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Department of buses update posted by BRYANLAYNE on September 12, 1997 at 19:28:32: Yes, I agree with you. The New Flyer low fllor buses are not attractive at all and the same goes for CNG buses (any manufacturer). It seems that the days of good looking transit buses are disappearing quickly. I always thought the Flxible Metro were best looking. The Orions are OK, and the RTS I'm just tired of look at. Gillig has just introduced a low floor bus which looks OK, but I don't see any showing in in the NYC area.
        
        Subject: Re: Department of buses update
        Message Number: 757953
        Posted by: Zack
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Department of buses update posted by Wayne Johnson on September 13, 1997 at 16:02:43: I like gilligs, gilig phantom's are cool Orions,newflyers,rts's look OK the flexible metro i cool like the gilligs :)
        
        Subject: Re: Department of buses update
        Message Number: 757957
        Posted by: Fernando Perez
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:01 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Department of buses update posted by Zack on September 13, 1997 at 18:14:03: Maybe it's just me but I think that when the Nova's came in they were the prettiest out of all the RTS's. The shiny paint and chrome wheels make them look good. When Mother Hale got them last year I got to drive the 9100's and they were smooth, fast and comfortable. And they smelled like new cars! The telescoping steering wheel was a nice touch also.
        
        Subject: Re: Department of buses update
        Message Number: 757992
        Posted by: trolleybus
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Department of buses update posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 12, 1997 at 22:12:16: nyct has also purchased 120 mci buses for use on express routes mainly on staten island. they should arrive by oct 1998.
        
        Subject: Re: Department of buses update
        Message Number: 757993
        Posted by: trolleybus
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Department of buses update posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 12, 1997 at 22:12:16: nyct has also purchased 120 mci buses for use on express routes mainly on staten island. they should arrive by oct 1998.

Thread title: East New York El Ramp (757902)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:37:17 1997, by Frank Gatazka

Subject: East New York El Ramp
Message Number: 757902
Posted by: Frank Gatazka
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:17 1997

Perhaps someone out there knows the history of this. East of the Broadway Junction station, as part of the vast East New York El complex, there exists the vestigial remains of a rather steep ramp that appears to lead nowhere. After climbing to it's apex, the ramp suddenly ends just before the Alabama Avenue Station. From the construction details of the structure, the ramp appears to have been built as part of the dual contracts expansion and is contemporary with the remainder of the maze of El girderwork in this area. I've heard lot's of speculation on this over the years, but have yet to pin down the definitive story. Any ideas?
- Subject: Re: East New York El Ramp
- Message Number: 757903
- Posted by: subway-buff
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:18 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]East New York El Ramp posted by Frank Gatazka on September 12, 1997 at 07:33:13: I will be touring the area with the Musuem on 9/27/1997. I will ask them that question and post the answer. (Oops! I almost forgot to make my date Y2K compliant B-)
  - Subject: Re: East New York El Ramp
  - Message Number: 757933
  - Posted by: Garfield
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:41 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: East New York El Ramp posted by subway-buff on September 12, 1997 at 08:12:09: A little over a year ago, I was talking with a few track workers who were doing repairs on the J/Z line. They were telling me that there was a plan to use that part of track as an extension but the whole thing just fell through the cracks. The steel frame is clearly visible as you enter the station (Queens-bound) rising from the existing track structure.
    - Subject: Re: East New York El Ramp
    - Message Number: 757963
    - Posted by: RAC93
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:06 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]East New York El Ramp posted by Frank Gatazka on September 12, 1997 at 07:33:13: From a map that is posted on this site: It shows that track leads to the East New York Yard... The other structure in the area that is no longer is the 3 middle tracks on the Canarsie Line (L) just after Atlantic Avenue, which happens to be in the area. These tracks used to connect to the Fulton Avenue EL. They are also visible on the above map. I hope this helps to answer your question.
      - Subject: Re: East New York El Ramp
      - Message Number: 757974
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]East New York El Ramp posted by Frank Gatazka on September 12, 1997 at 07:33:13: I think you are talking about what would have been the beginning of an extention of the single center express track that was placed with the dual contract rebuilding on the Broadway line. Provision for a third track was provided on the new dual contract El East of Cypress Hills but the Fulton St. stretch was not widened, and the stations are center platform. A flyover express track was envisioned, but the well intentioned desire to eliminate the Crescent St. curves led to routing disputes, and that era of building passed by without any on. It came up again after WWII, at a time I was living at 508 Ridgewood avenue, about three blocks East of Crescent. By then both sides of Crescent from Fulton to Jamaica Avenues were completely filled in with nice housing, and nothing got off the ground, literrally.
        
        Subject: Re: East New York El Ramp
        Message Number: 758258
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: East New York El Ramp posted by Garfield on September 13, 1997 at 00:13:18: I went on the tour of this complex yesterday and asked John Cunningham about flyover trackway. He advised that while BRT records are incomplete it seems to be an express track which would have gone as a higher(upper) level at Alabama Ave. He did not have info on where it would have gone beyond that station. John also advised of a plan to simplify the ATlantic Ave Station on the L line by tearing down all platforms excet for the one island platform at the extreme west side (closest to the Willy B Bridge)
        
        Subject: Re: East New York El Ramp
        Message Number: 758270
        Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: East New York El Ramp posted by subway-buff on September 28, 1997 at 17:33:12: Did you ask Cunningham if he is ever going to reprint his excellent triple book series on NYC transit?

Thread title: E,F,G,R on Queens Blvd & 63rd St Connection (was: Re: Manhattan Bridge) (757909)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:37:23 1997, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: E,F,G,R on Queens Blvd & 63rd St Connection (was: Re: Manhattan Bridge)
Message Number: 757909
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:23 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Manhattan Bridge posted by hal on September 12, 1997 at 03:33:34: I'm not so sure about the new connection being stupid. It is providing an additional means of commuting into Manhattan along these lines. If a train breaks down at 53 St & 5th Avenue heading downtown during the morning rush, the only alternative is everyone heading down the R line. Now you'll have an alternative - 63rd St. It should allow additional capacity even when there are no bottlenecks. The return trip to Queens? Well, to handle that, the G train is being cut back to Court Square. The new line via 63rd St will take its place. More people will use this line that the G line. SO I don't see the congestion getting worse. Service disruptions now? Sure there are. But at least they are not nearly as bad as the Manhattan Bridge fiasco. There are folks following this discussion group that never SAW south-side service across the Manhattan Bridge!! --Mark
- Subject: Re: E,F,G,R on Queens Blvd & 63rd St Connection (was: Re: Manhattan Bridge)
- Message Number: 757937
- Posted by: Andrew Huie
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:46 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]E,F,G,R on Queens Blvd & 63rd St Connection (was: Re: Manhattan Bridge) posted by Mark S Feinman on September 12, 1997 at 13:31:53: It would be nice though, if the new connection also provided a transfer point at Queens Plaza, so it can allow transfers with all the Queens Blvd. lines.
  - Subject: Re: E,F,G,R on Queens Blvd & 63rd St Connection (was: Re: Manhattan Bridge)
  - Message Number: 757942
  - Posted by: buster
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:49 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]E,F,G,R on Queens Blvd & 63rd St Connection (was: Re: Manhattan Bridge) posted by Mark S Feinman on September 12, 1997 at 13:31:53: you are right about having an alternative, but absolutely wrong in other areas. The G line supports several working class communities that work around the clock. Greenpoint and points south are neighborhoods of day and night laborers. you are therefore screwing a solid tax-paying sector of the city. If you weant to cut service to court square, then provide the following: (1) moving sidewalks at court square. Its a long,long walk to get from court square to the front of the f or e to get you to Lex. (2) more frequent G service (3) a connection to the 7 and either Hunterspoint, Vernon-Jackson or Court Square Since that will never happen what I need to say about the MTA and their arcane planning cannot be printed.

Thread title: Staten Island Connection (757910)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:37:23 1997, by Daniel A. Valles

Subject: Staten Island Connection
Message Number: 757910
Posted by: Daniel A. Valles
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:23 1997

Of late, there has been a lot of talk about the 63rd Street connection... It should be able to alleviate congestion... a little... However, I wonder if the MTA, or any of the SUB-TALK writers out there, has ever given thought to a connection that will alleviate congestion... as to cars! What I suggest is that they build a connection to Staten Island... Now, I know it may cost an arm and a leg, but I think it should be looked at... Now, due to the location of Staten Island in the city, the only feasible connection would be to Brooklyn, but I think a connection to Manhattan (and maybe even New Jersey) can be looked into... I know I, being a resident of Bayonne, NJ, hate to use the PATH trains, and taking a bus during rush-hour and having it pass through the Holland Tunnel is not my idea of enjoyment, so I hope I can present an idea to you (and maybe even the MTA): I understand that the North Side of S.I. have tracks that are abandoned... What can be done? Well, a train can run from St. George to Port Richmond... from there, a tunnel can be made connecting to Bayonne, New Jersey... then, the train would run along the eastern coast of Bayonne and Jersey City... then, a connection can be made connecting this line to the PATH trains between Jornal Square and Grove Street stations... Possibly (in an attempt to replace the outdated Path trains) trains can then run from here into the World Trade Center using the Hudson Tubes (now being operated by PATH)... Now, I know it sounds like a headache, but if you want to alleviate congestion of the worse kind (vehicles!), this idea or something dealing with this issue should be looked into... I just hope I'm not the only one who has wishful thinking... Sincerely, Daniel Valles Student, Pace University
- Subject: Re: Staten Island Connection
- Message Number: 757911
- Posted by: subway-buff
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:24 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Staten Island Connection posted by Daniel A. Valles on September 12, 1997 at 14:20:27: Your idea, while great has problems. PATH trains and tunnels are built to IRT Type specs- In theory you copuld run an IRT car on PATH and a PATH car on the IRT. The IRT and PATH have very tight turns and SIRT cars which use the BMT type of Car are wider and longer. A BMT car wandering onto IRT tracks would crasdh into the patform or a tunnel wall due to clearances-especially in the lower Manhattan section. Elsewhere on this site you can find specas of the BMT/IND and IRT cars. You can also find specs on PATH cars and note how they match with the exception of doors (2 on most vs 3 or all IRT) the IRT specs. To replace PATH you'd need new tunnels built to BMT/IND specs and with the hatred of the Port Authority and PATH it'll never happen. The only hope is a train to Bayonne from St. George-and don't wait for that one. Trains are not popular in the city of today.
  - Subject: Re: Staten Island Connection
  - Message Number: 757912
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:25 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Staten Island Connection posted by Daniel A. Valles on September 12, 1997 at 14:20:27: Check the archives. There's been plenty of talk about it. You might also want to check out the newsgroup nyc.transit (if your site doesn't have, try [7]DejaNews). Look for threads with subjects... "R" Train Service to SI Express R train to S.I. in the past two weeks at least 100 posts have been made on this very topic.
    - Subject: Re: Staten Island Connection
    - Message Number: 757923
    - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:34 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Staten Island Connection posted by subway-buff on September 12, 1997 at 14:29:56: There was a plan a few years ago to send the SIR to NYC via Bayonne, with some additional stops, and a connection to lower Manhattan to the 6/8th ave lines or the B'way line (BMT) I think a study was authorized, but nothing has come of it as yet. -Hank
      - Subject: Re: Staten Island Connection
      - Message Number: 757934
      - Posted by: Antoniette
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Staten Island Connection posted by Daniel A. Valles on September 12, 1997 at 14:20:27: The easiest way is a Narrows tunnel which will emerge into the abandoned but still extant,SIR South Beach Line at Hyland Blvd. The connection still exits to the main line. Then, since the North Shore line is being rebuilt now, redo and reopen the stations. That should be done, whether the Brooklyn connection is completed or not.An alternative would be lite rail on the Narrows Bridge lower deck, right onto Bay Street exit and left into South Beach right of way.It can be done!
        
        Subject: Re: Staten Island Connection
        Message Number: 758020
        Posted by: John
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:50 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Staten Island Connection posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 12, 1997 at 22:05:10: How about this: A service similer to the one mentioned above that branches off of the BMT near Whitehall Street, goes under New York Bay, with stops at Liberty Island, Ellis Island, the CNJRR station in Liberty State Park, through downtown Bayonne, under (or over) the Kill Van Kull (or is it the Arthur Kill?) to Staten Island, eventually joining the SIRT. Branches off of this service could go directly to Newark Airport and/or downtown Elizabeth, making a route similar to the proposed Newark Subway extension.
        
        Subject: Re: Staten Island Connection
        Message Number: 758034
        Posted by: ~airplane
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:02 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Staten Island Connection posted by John on September 16, 1997 at 19:56:33: Assuming that the MTA could come up with the enormous amount of capital necessary for this project, does NYCT have the authority to run trains through New Jersey? Wouldn't the Port Authority throw a fit?
        
        Subject: Re: Staten Island Connection
        Message Number: 758038
        Posted by: John
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Staten Island Connection posted by ~airplane on September 17, 1997 at 17:16:03: The MTA could do the same thing they do with the Metro-North New Haven Line: form a contract with the DoT of the other state (in this case, obviously, it would be New Jersey, rather than Connecticut).
        
        Subject: Re: Staten Island Connection
        Message Number: 758040
        Posted by: Daniel A. Valles
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:07 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Staten Island Connection posted by John on September 17, 1997 at 18:02:59: A contract could be formed, but there is an ample ammount of friction that exist between the NYCTA and the Port Authority of New York & New Jersey... I am all in favor of it, but until some issues get resolved (i.e. the $1 fare of PATH vs. the $1.50 fare of NYCTA services), then it is all what I previously said in my opening letter: A lot of wishful thinking... -- Danny Valles
        
        Subject: Re: Staten Island Connection
        Message Number: 758071
        Posted by: Dan
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Staten Island Connection posted by Daniel A. Valles on September 12, 1997 at 14:20:27: The western portion of the SIR North Shore line is being refurbished for freight use at this time, as is the lift bridge over the Arthur Kill. BUT, until someone finds about $2 Billion dollars laying around, you can forget about any 'Staten Island connection' to anywhere. Most Staten Islanders do not favor a direct rail connection to NYC or NJ because it would be a money-loser.

Thread title: Re: Staten Island Connection- Part II (757913)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:37:26 1997, by subway-buff

Subject: Re: Staten Island Connection- Part II
Message Number: 757913
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:26 1997

In Reply to: [6]Staten Island Connection posted by Daniel A. Valles on September 12, 1997 at 14:20:27: I'd love to see the PATH annexed by NYC. I ride PATH every weekend and face 20 minute waits between trains- late trains, unannouced re-routes, trains full to rush hour packing on weekends, etc. I'd gladly pay $1.50 for better service. The PATH service has deteriorated. During late afternoons at the WTC they used to keep a spare train open for Newark and the train crews would pull in on the other track and then swap trains to the one that has been loading for 20 minutes and then leave their train for the next crew. Lately they have been closing up the spare train for cleaning (and it is just as dirty-The NYC dirty cars are clean compared to PATH). I'd love to see "free transfer" on 6av to PATH-and yes, one 6av train to Newark without the Journal Square transfer to a full train from WTC.
- Subject: Re: Staten Island Connection- Part II
- Message Number: 757914
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:27 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Staten Island Connection- Part II posted by subway-buff on September 12, 1997 at 14:34:57: I don't think making PATH part of the MTA is a Good Idea. Rudy has already expressed his distaste for PATH a number of times. If people buy into his argument PATH service will go further down the (hudson) tubes... As for combining PATH with SIRT, platform size and car length is not a factor that cannot be overcome. Runnign PATH size cars on the SIRT would be fine-- move the SIRT R-44's back to NYC. The main problem with any plan that depends on connection (either via track connections or transfers) is that PATH is overcrowded and over rush-hour capacity. It can't handle significantly more riders without infrastructure improvements. I agree a transfer along 6th Avenue would be nice, and at WTC also (could be done using a unified farecard scheme. No construction necessary.) (All of the arguments that Rudy makes are based on the fact that per-passenger, PATH is more highly subsidized than NYCT. To hear him tell it, PATH brings no benefit to the City of New York. I'd like to hear him say that when a few hundred thousand daily commuters remove their millions in spending from New York City stores, restaurants, entertainment, etc.)

Thread title: Re: Fastest Subway system (Bart is NOT lightrail, thank you) (757915)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:37:27 1997, by Nathan McCartney

Subject: Re: Fastest Subway system (Bart is NOT lightrail, thank you)
Message Number: 757915
Posted by: Nathan McCartney
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:27 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Fastest Subway system posted by Julio Perez on September 09, 1997 at 14:45:08: BART is standard heavy rail subway! "Light" Rail is not a weight designation, but is used more in terms of capacity. Whether or not a subway car is made out of aluminum is irrelevant, expecially if you have every been on the gigantic (though cumbersome) aluminum rectangular prisms used on the TTC subway. Light rail systems have a capacity of (usually) between 5000-1000 passengers per hour. A heavy rail train could be made of plastic and saran wrap but if it is carrying over 20000 passengers per hour at high speeds then it is heavy rail. Just because a subway car is made out of lightweight materials does NOT mean it is "Light" rail, that is determined by capacity.
- Subject: Re: Fastest Subway system (Bart is NOT lightrail, thank you)
- Message Number: 757990
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:27 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Fastest Subway system (Bart is NOT lightrail, thank you) posted by Nathan McCartney on September 12, 1997 at 18:51:23: > A heavy rail train could be made of plastic and saran wrap but if it is > carrying over 20000 passengers per hour at high speeds.... This is a great description of the NYC subway in the deferred maintenence days of the late 70s and early 80s. I think the occasional chewing gum was used, too :-)))) --Mark

Thread title: Passenger Capacity (757918)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:37:30 1997, by David L.

Subject: Passenger Capacity
Message Number: 757918
Posted by: David L.
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:30 1997

Does anyone know how many passengers a single R-46 car can hold? And also how many passengers a single R-32 car can hold? Thanks.

Thread title: 28st Explosion (757927)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:37:37 1997, by Hank Eisenstein

Subject: 28st Explosion
Message Number: 757927
Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:37 1997

There was an electrical explosion at the 28st station on the 1/9 this morning, anyone know anything more about it? -Hank

Thread title: Other MTA domain names... (757929)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:37:38 1997, by Michael Adler

Subject: Other MTA domain names...
Message Number: 757929
Posted by: Michael Adler
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:38 1997

After playing with other MTA possible domain names and came across the following MTA domain names which MTA actually owns: libus.org (Long Island Bus) mnr.org (Metro North Railroad) nyct.org (New York City Transit) lirr.org (Long Island Railroad) Wondering if MTA planning to use these domain names for each agencies? ------------- Michael Adler Lakewood, ColorFUL Colorado City Letter Carrier serving Wheat Ridge & Mountain View (not Netscape's hometown )
- Subject: Re: Other MTA domain names...
- Message Number: 757943
- Posted by: Subway-buff
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:50 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Other MTA domain names... posted by Michael Adler on September 12, 1997 at 22:50:31: They are in use. If you will check the www.mta.nyc.ny.us page you will find listings for their various "sub-agencies". Click on a choice and it brings up the home page of that sub agency. "Your way" lets you bypass the MTA splash screen.
  - Subject: Re: Other MTA domain names...
  - Message Number: 757954
  - Posted by: Michael Adler
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:59 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Other MTA domain names... posted by Subway-buff on September 13, 1997 at 07:04:09: No, when I type and access lirr.org or other MTA domain names, it will automatically go to www.mta.nyc.ny.us anyway. Michael Adler
    - Subject: Re: Other MTA domain names...
    - Message Number: 757955
    - Posted by: subway-buff
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:00 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Other MTA domain names... posted by Michael Adler on September 13, 1997 at 20:33:53: I was trying to keep it simple. What you came across is an "alias". I ran across the same thing with a site I access from work and I asked the sysop of that site the same question. It does not matter what you type- you will get the Official MTA Site. Hope this explanation helps. Sorry if I made it too simple B-)
      - Subject: Re: Other MTA domain names...
      - Message Number: 757972
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:13 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Other MTA domain names... posted by Michael Adler on September 12, 1997 at 22:50:31: I may be misreading this, but I think you are have discovered that MTA has reserved domain names, probably to prevent their use by others. One of our local TV stations in Sacramento did that to ALL the other local station call letters, hoping to cripple the others access to the web. Needless to say, the people who think up those original names like "Eyewitness News", etc. had no trouble coming up with alternate names for sites of there own.

Thread title: 4 train yard (757945)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:37:52 1997, by Brian

Subject: 4 train yard
Message Number: 757945
Posted by: Brian
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:52 1997

Where is the 4 train yard? Walking to school every day, I walk over the yard just west of the Bedford Park Boulevard Station on the 4. At first I thought that was the yard, because there is a track from the Jerome Avenue El, but I saw that mostly D trains are there. I thought the D train used the Coney Island Yard.
- Subject: Re: 4 train yard
- Message Number: 757947
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:53 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]4 train yard posted by Brian on September 13, 1997 at 15:01:11: The yard you walking past is Concourse yard. D trains are stored and serviced there. C trains are also stored there, but I don't know if they're serviced at Concourse yard. I don't think D trains are serviced at Coney Island yard. I'm sure Steve knows. But the #4 line trains use the Jerome yard which is north of Concourse yard, but it's inside of a building. I'm assuming you're a student at either Lehman College of Bronx H.S. of Science. From the intersection of E. 205th Street and Goulden Ave if you look toward Jerome Avenue you can see the tracks leading from the el into the Jerome yard.
  - Subject: Re: 4 train yard
  - Message Number: 757951
  - Posted by: Allan
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:56 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]4 train yard posted by Brian on September 13, 1997 at 15:01:11: The #4 train yard is located under the apartment buildings (I think they are called Tracey Towers). You can see the yard lead tracks leading from under the building at 205th Street. The IND (C, D) use the Concourse Yard mainly for storage and cleaning. Some minor repairs can be done in the inspection barn. All major work is done at the Coney Island Shops. Which is a reason why there is a track leading from the Concourse Yard to the Jerome Av line (just south of the Kingsbridge Road station. This is the way some IRT gets down to Coney Island Yard.
    - Subject: Re: 4 train yard
    - Message Number: 757952
    - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:57 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: 4 train yard posted by Allan on September 13, 1997 at 16:24:20: All IRT (A Division) except Flushing line cars go to 207th Street Shops for major work. Also, The apartment building at 205th are not Tracey Towers. Tracey towers are at the north end of the same block and (I could be wrong) but I don't think the yard quite make it to Tracey Towers, but it does come close.
      - Subject: Re: 4 train yard
      - Message Number: 757956
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: 4 train yard posted by Allan on September 13, 1997 at 16:24:20: The #4 train yard is officially called Jerome Yard or Moshalu Yard. It's located under the parking facility for Tracey Towers. The reason you see #4 trains in Concourse yard is because several #4 trains are stored there overnight. In addition, Concourse Shop is responsible for the exterior car washing of the #4 fleet as well as 'wheel truing'. #4 trains do not go to Coney Island yard. They go to 207th Street for heavy maintenance. The 'D' trains (technically) rarely use Coney Island Yard. This is because the Coney Island comolex is actually made up of 3 yards. City Yard or Av X yard is where the F trains lay up. Coney Island Yard is the yard used by Coney Island Overhaul Shop and Coney Island Maintenance Shop (not the same) and the D trains (15) lay up in Stillwell Yd. Contrary to popular belief - even by TA people, Concourse Shop does many of the heavy repairs on the R-68s that other fleets have done in the Overhaul Shops.
        
        Subject: Re: 4 train yard
        Message Number: 757961
        Posted by: charlie muller jr.
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: 4 train yard posted by Wayne Johnson on September 13, 1997 at 15:51:48: on the # 4 train yard, tracy towers is the right next to or very close to the the #4 yard. i leave about a 10 minute walk away on valentine ave and bedford park blvd. i like to see the trains coming and going on both the d and 4 train yards. if you take the northbound #4 train from bedford park blvd to mosholu parkway, it passes right by the #4 train yard. the southbound 4 train from mosholu pkway to bedford park blvd gives a better view of the tracks leading to the yard and the main line of the #4 train. charlie muller jr.
        
        Subject: Re: 4 train yard
        Message Number: 757983
        Posted by: charlie muller jr.
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: 4 train yard posted by charlie muller jr. on September 13, 1997 at 23:53:01: to allan, the track from the #4 train main line to the d train concourse yard is north of the kingsbridge road station south bound track. charlie muller jr.
        
        Subject: Re: 4 train yard
        Message Number: 757988
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: 4 train yard posted by Allan on September 13, 1997 at 16:24:20: > ....there is a track leading from the Concourse Yard to the > Jerome Av line (just south of the Kingsbridge Road station. This is the > way some IRT gets down to Coney Island Yard. I had the opportunity to ride on this trackage yesterday when the Lo-V Fantrip ended. We took the #4 line to this track into Concourse Yard, then using B division, we used the D line from Bedford Park Blvd to Rockefeller Center and then the F line from there to Coney Island. I heard that this connecting structure is being held up by cinderblocks? Is this really true? There was an amazingly loud echo as we slowly rode down this structure. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: 4 train yard
        Message Number: 758002
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: 4 train yard posted by Mark S Feinman on September 15, 1997 at 13:03:26: Nonesense! There are no cinderblocks holding that lead up. It's strictly concrete and steel.

Thread title: Manhattan Bridge replacement (757946)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:37:52 1997, by Brian

Subject: Manhattan Bridge replacement
Message Number: 757946
Posted by: Brian
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:52 1997

Here is what we should do. Build a new east river crossing (This would be much easier than making many different connections). Connect the 6th av. line from Grand St., and connect the Broadway line from Canal St. to this tunnel. Run the Q train on Broadway, and run the B and D trains on 6th. On evenings and weekends, reroute the B to the Broadway line to Queensbridge, or call this the Q. The only difference with this is that there would be an express on both Broadway and 6th Av., so it makes more sense than running the B to Queensbridge via 6th Av.

Thread title: Atantic Ave. (757949)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:37:55 1997, by Bill Dee

Subject: Atantic Ave.
Message Number: 757949
Posted by: Bill Dee
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:55 1997

Does any one know what is going on at the Atlantic Ave Station on the IRT? This morning I was going into the city and was waiting for the train on the north end of the platform were all these lights an worktrains. What are they fixing out there?

Thread title: Re: Atlantic Ave.--correction (757950)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:37:56 1997, by Bill Dee

Subject: Re: Atlantic Ave.--correction
Message Number: 757950
Posted by: Bill Dee
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:37:56 1997

In Reply to: [5]Atantic Ave. posted by Bill Dee on September 13, 1997 at 16:12:04: That's Atlantic Ave

Thread title: Re: Department of buses update Nova buses (757958)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:38:02 1997, by Fernando Perez

Subject: Re: Department of buses update Nova buses
Message Number: 757958
Posted by: Fernando Perez
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:02 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Department of buses update posted by Zack on September 13, 1997 at 18:14:03: Maybe it's just me but I think that when the Nova's came in they were the prettiest out of all the RTS's. The shiny paint and chrome wheels make them look good. When Mother Hale got them last year I got to drive the 9100's and they were smooth, fast and comfortable. And they smelled like new cars! The telescoping steering wheel was a nice touch also.
- Subject: Re: Department of buses update Nova buses
- Message Number: 757969
- Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:11 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Department of buses update Nova buses posted by Fernando Perez on September 13, 1997 at 23:01:57: Just a quick not:those wheels are polished aluminum, which has been clearcoated. I'm scared to see what a hard winter will do to these wheels, which apparently aren't compatible with the steel wheels on the older buses. -Hank
  - Subject: Re: Department of buses update Nova buses
  - Message Number: 757978
  - Posted by: jeff
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:17 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Department of buses update Nova buses posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 14, 1997 at 15:11:28: Actually, the Aluminum wheels were a good idea. As long as they are scrubed they will stay shiny. Bus #3160 in Brooklyn's Ulmer Park Depot has aluminum wheels and it was put into service in the late 80's. Its wheels are still shiny after years of service.
    - Subject: Re: Department of buses update Nova buses
    - Message Number: 757986
    - Posted by: Darrin B.
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:24 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Department of buses update Nova buses posted by Fernando Perez on September 13, 1997 at 23:01:57: Are these the same kind of NovaBuses that the Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority got in trouble for getting? In Buffalo here, the Niagara Frontier Transit Metro System NFTA purchased I believe about 30 of these buses and has more coming...the NFTA did get into some hot water, like some other companies, and bought these buses without having them a certain percantage of American made in it. Just an amusing thought that even the largest transit agency made the same mistake...
      - Subject: Re: Department of buses update Nova buses
      - Message Number: 757991
      - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:28 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Department of buses update Nova buses posted by Fernando Perez on September 13, 1997 at 23:01:57: I also like the RTS with the chrome wheels. I like all of these (8600-9349) because they have the new Detroit Diesel Series 50 engine which makes them very fast, but I'm partial to the TMC 8600-8700's because they still have the NYCTA and M logo instead of the newer MTA/NYCT stuff. I think RTS's look good, but the TA had so many that it was refreshing to see anything else joining the fleet.

Thread title: Train info - length of cars (757962)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:38:05 1997, by Ted

Subject: Train info - length of cars
Message Number: 757962
Posted by: Ted
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:05 1997

I need to know the length of the following cars : 1.) LIRR / Metro-North Multiple Unit 2.) NJ Transit Arrow EMU car 3.) NJ Transit Comet IV pass. car I looked at several websites including this one , but couldn't find the data. Thanks for your help.
- Subject: Re: Train info - length of cars
- Message Number: 758109
- Posted by: Howard
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:01 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Train info - length of cars posted by Ted on September 14, 1997 at 00:36:00: To answer your qustions on train length: 1)LIRR/Metro-North units: 150 feet 2)Arrow EMU: 80 feet 3)Comet 4 pass. car: 85 feet
  - Subject: Re: Train info - length of cars
  - Message Number: 758110
  - Posted by: Howard
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:02 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Train info - length of cars posted by Ted on September 14, 1997 at 00:36:00: To answer your qustions on train length: 1)LIRR/Metro-North units: 150 feet 2)Arrow EMU: 80 feet 3)Comet 4 pass. car: 85 feet
    - Subject: Re: Train info - length of cars
    - Message Number: 758126
    - Posted by: John
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:16 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Train info - length of cars posted by Howard on September 21, 1997 at 13:10:22: 150 feet?! Christ, are they THAT long? You sure you got that right?
      - Subject: Re: Train info - length of cars
      - Message Number: 758147
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:32 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Train info - length of cars posted by Howard on September 21, 1997 at 13:10:22: I wouldn't bet the ranch but I think the M-1s to M-6s are 80' long.
        
        Subject: Re: Train info - length of cars
        Message Number: 758148
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Train info - length of cars posted by Howard on September 21, 1997 at 13:10:22: I wouldn't bet the ranch but I think the M-1s to M-6s are 80' long.
        
        Subject: Re: Train info - length of cars
        Message Number: 758160
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Train info - length of cars posted by John on September 21, 1997 at 21:59:25: MTA MU's are two 75' cars as a married pair. Since neither carcan operate independantly of the other, they can be considered one car. MNCR has some triple units (3-car married sets) I think NJT Eagle MU's are the same, but there are a few single units.

Thread title: LIRR's MU on SIR question... (757964)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:38:07 1997, by Michael Adler

Subject: LIRR's MU on SIR question...
Message Number: 757964
Posted by: Michael Adler
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:07 1997

Hi all, Why not run LIRR's MU on SIR instead of R44s? can MU fit current SIR platforms? (picturing MUs on SIR ) Michael Adler
- Subject: Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question...
- Message Number: 757965
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:08 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]LIRR's MU on SIR question... posted by Michael Adler on September 14, 1997 at 11:43:51: What would be the benifit to running M-1s on the SIR? There are practical reasons why this is not feasible but I'd be interested in your reasons for asking the question.
  - Subject: Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question...
  - Message Number: 757967
  - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:09 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]LIRR's MU on SIR question... posted by Michael Adler on September 14, 1997 at 11:43:51: After the MTA took over, we did have some LIRR MU's. But since we were part of the Transit Authority (which was and still is the operater on the line) The current LIRR MU's are only slightly longer than R44, so I don't see what kind of a problem there would be. -Hank
    - Subject: Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question...
    - Message Number: 757968
    - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:10 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question... posted by Steve on September 14, 1997 at 13:54:32: What practical reasons are there for not being able to run M1's on SIR? -Hank
      - Subject: Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question...
      - Message Number: 757975
      - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question... posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 14, 1997 at 15:01:45: I don't think there are any limiting factors (yes, you CAN easily get cars on/off of SI), but there really is no benifit from it. The M-1's are really intended to be high speed, long distance cars, not RT cars. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the M-1s use more power, and besides, they don't acellerate as well as the R 44s (?) on the SIRT. I don't see any reason why it couldn't be done, but then again, I see no reason why it SHOULD be done.
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question...
        Message Number: 757979
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question... posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 14, 1997 at 15:01:45: Some of the practical problems resulting from running M-1s on SIR would be: (in no particular order) 1. Power considerations. R-44s are 460 HP per car compareds to 560 for the M-1s resulting in tremendous increase in electric use. 2. Weight considerations. R-44s are about 84,000 lbs whereas the M-1s are about 20,000 Lbs greater. 3. R-44s have 4 door portals per side while M-1s have 2. This would increase station dwell time. 4. R-44s accellerate and decelerate at 3MPH/Sec. which is greater than the M-1s. The M-1s are built for a maximum speed of 80 MPH which could never be realized on the SIR. The car would be totally inefficient. 5. The M-1s would not operate with the SIR signal system. Those are just a few of the negatives. Can anyone think of a positive?
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question...
        Message Number: 757980
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question... posted by Steve on September 14, 1997 at 21:56:51: Ok.. here's a positive: The look cooler :) Ok, ok, I KNOW what your thinking, but I'm talking RELATIVE here. I personally think everything from the R - 40 on just looks plain ugly. At least the M-1s have cleaner lines.... But seriously, why can't the LIRR come up with a halfway decent paint scheme for them??? Not that I advocate canning the stainless look, it's just that the mismatched look of current LIRR trains just looks plain stupid. For that matter, why does it seem that all the commuter equipment looks plain boring??? Least favorite has got to be the newer NJT stuff, with their "Barbie" interiors. What clowns come up with this stuff???
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question...
        Message Number: 757995
        Posted by: Howard
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question... posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 14, 1997 at 18:23:31: They could do that but since the M-1 are used for high-speed, long distence travel and since the stations on SIRTOA are so close togther, it would be a waste of enegry and time.
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question...
        Message Number: 757998
        Posted by: John
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question... posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 14, 1997 at 23:13:03: The LIRR has some of the MU cars with a blue stripe on the side, and all of the diesel cars have them Are they eventually going to add this to the entire fleet, or leave it the way it is? By the way, concerning interior designs, I don't see the cream-black-red seats in the LIRR MUs anymore. I suppose they were replaced with the blue-blue-red (although the diesel cars still have the former). In the NJT Arrows, I liked the orange-black-orange and green-blue-green seats in the Arrow II much better than the brown (ugh!) in the Arrow III and Comet III. Not only is the brown color ugly, the seats are unforgiving on the ass and the back.
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question...
        Message Number: 758001
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:35 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question... posted by John on September 15, 1997 at 23:33:38: I think you'll find that the Blue Stripe is being removed, not added.
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question...
        Message Number: 758016
        Posted by: Philip nasadowski
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:47 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question... posted by John on September 15, 1997 at 23:33:38: The award for worst interior scheme goes to either Septic, for their MU interior treatment, or NJT for their new (Bombardier?) cars. That blue seat/ pink end walls and canned station announcements is enough to make one kill themself... NJT also has by far the most uncomfortable seats. I've found Metro Norths to be the beast, with the LIRR MU's being second. The diesel seats seems to smell and stick to you though :/
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question...
        Message Number: 758019
        Posted by: John
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:49 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question... posted by Philip nasadowski on September 16, 1997 at 18:03:14: That's right - I forgot about SEPTA. The insides look like rows of ketchup and mustard stains! (The seats are yellow-red-yellow, or something like that).
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question...
        Message Number: 758156
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question... posted by Steve on September 14, 1997 at 21:56:51: How would the M1 not work with the SIR signal system? SIR uses B&O color-Position signals, approach lit. A simple wire across the rails activates the signals. -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question...
        Message Number: 758157
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question... posted by John on September 15, 1997 at 23:33:38: LIRR is removing all but the yellow painted ends from the cars striping, for maintainance reasons. Why paint metal that doesn't need painting. Also, cars are being shopped and recieving those wonderful 'cyclops' headlights, and are having their regular headlights modified to act as ditch lights for visability purposes (FRA requirement for locomotives, and an MU is considered a locomotive.) -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question...
        Message Number: 758158
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question... posted by John on September 16, 1997 at 19:52:17: They ARE ketchup and mustard stains. -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question...
        Message Number: 758159
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question... posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 14, 1997 at 18:23:31: Want to explain how it's "easy" to get these cars on and off SI? When the current cars were rebuilt, they had to be trucked to 38st yard in Brooklyn. There is no rail connection from the SIR line to the rest of the SIR (several washouts near Snug Harbor) and the rail yard and barge connections for the harbor are long gone. -Hank

Thread title: Paint Schemes (757981)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:38:20 1997, by Steve

Subject: Paint Schemes
Message Number: 757981
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:20 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR's MU on SIR question... posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 14, 1997 at 23:13:03: Truely, it seems that the LIRR can't make up it's mind. One of the MetroNorth branches has a bonnet scheme of Orange & White diagonal 'safety' striping. I'd like to do something similar with my fleet.

Thread title: New York days-Shore line trolley museum (757982)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:38:21 1997, by Fernando Perez

Subject: New York days-Shore line trolley museum
Message Number: 757982
Posted by: Fernando Perez
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:21 1997

On October 4 and 5 the Shoreline Trolley museum in East Haven,Conn will have a New York days celebration featuring Street cars and Rapid Tranist rail cars of their collection. For more info: http://www.panix.com/~christos/TrolleyPage.html

Thread title: New Items on the site (757984)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:38:22 1997, by David Pirmann

Subject: New Items on the site
Message Number: 757984
Posted by: David Pirmann
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:22 1997

Just wanted to point out some new things added in the past couple of weeks that you may not have found yet: * [6]NYC Subway Car Roster pages- 100s of photos added. * [7]Historical Perspectives - new pages of Snow Removal Equipment, Scrapyards, Commuter Rail. * [8]Boston MBTA Historical Photos - lots of new photos by/from Joe Testagrose. * [9]Pittsburgh PCCs - photos of Pburgh PCC trolleys * [10]New York City Subway Signals - home signals, light signals, signs, etc, seen in the subway * [11]NYC Photo Album (misc. things from around the subway) completely redone, including new [12]Yard photos * [13]Subway FAQ - a new subway FAQ incorporating lots of useful information for subway fans * [14]Images directories - take a look at images arranged by category. Thanks to CGI scripts these pages are automatically made up based on what images are available. Included here are some miscellaneous things like [15]1964 World's Fair monorail and [16]Bicentennial Transit (transit vehicles specially painted for the 1976 Bicentennial. * Search engine (which can be found on the [17]home page - WebGlimpse allows searching of our automatically generated pages including the photo caption database. I've also entered some pages from other web sites to make it easier for people to find stuff that's related but that we don't have ourselves. A help file for WebGlimpse is [18]HERE. And too many to list-- almost every single section has been redone with new thumbnail images that should be faster to load and standardized format thanks to some nifty CGI scripts. Enjoy! Dave
- Subject: Re: New Items on the site
- Message Number: 757994
- Posted by: aaron
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:30 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]New Items on the site posted by David Pirmann on September 15, 1997 at 08:31:20: David, I like the new items, but I found one mistake. In the Chicago historical section, picture cta.103.jpg is not a CTA car. I believe it is an old Cleveland Car. Please correct, I know you strive for 100 percent accuracy on the website...

Thread title: Association of Railway Museums Convention at Seashore (757985)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:38:23 1997, by Todd Glickman

Subject: Association of Railway Museums Convention at Seashore
Message Number: 757985
Posted by: Todd Glickman
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:23 1997

The Association of Railway Museums will be meeting this week in Portland, Maine. On Saturday, 20 September, the convention will spend the day at the Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport, Maine. The museum is open that day for the public as well. There will be the "mother of all trolley parades" at 12:30pm. Included will be around 40 vehicles, including trolleys, rapid transit, work equipment, and even buses. It is expected that our R4/R7 "A-Train" (#800/1440) will run, as well as Third Avenue Railway System #631, representing NYC. Gibbs car #3352 will be on static display. A highlight of the parade will be a tribute to the Boston subway system's 100th anniversary. I hope to see many SubTalkers there! Todd Glickman Vice Chairman, Operations Safety & Training Committee Seashore Trolley Museum
- Subject: Re: Association of Railway Museums Convention at Seashore
- Message Number: 757987
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:25 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Association of Railway Museums Convention at Seashore posted by Todd Glickman on September 15, 1997 at 08:55:41: Todd ... This sounds GREAT! I wish it was posted here more in advance - I coulda planned for it :-( --Mark
  - Subject: Re: Association of Railway Museums Convention at Seashore
  - Message Number: 758049
  - Posted by: Joe M
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:14 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Association of Railway Museums Convention at Seashore posted by Mark S Feinman on September 15, 1997 at 12:40:11: You can subscribe to the Association of Railway Museums (ARM) newsletter which details events. I do not have the address here maybe someone else knows it. They talked about this avent a bit, and will notify you of the next meeting.

Thread title: G to COurt Square (was Re: E,F,G,R on Queens Blvd & 63rd St Connection) (757989)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:38:26 1997, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: G to COurt Square (was Re: E,F,G,R on Queens Blvd & 63rd St Connection)
Message Number: 757989
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:26 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: E,F,G,R on Queens Blvd & 63rd St Connection (was: Re: Manhattan Bridge) posted by buster on September 13, 1997 at 04:33:13: Isn't NYC Transit planning on discontinuing service on the G north (or east) of Court Square permanently when the 63rd ST connection starts? I *thought* this to be the case. --Mark

Thread title: IRT models in HO and N scales (757996)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:38:32 1997, by Gary Jacobi

Subject: IRT models in HO and N scales
Message Number: 757996
Posted by: Gary Jacobi
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:32 1997

This may not be news, but I just noticed in Model Railroader that the Red Caboose in NYC is advertising N scale brass R29's, and HO scale plastic R21's and R26's.
- Subject: Re: IRT models in HO and N scales
- Message Number: 758000
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:35 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]IRT models in HO and N scales posted by Gary Jacobi on September 15, 1997 at 17:04:50: They also have LIRR & MN equipment in both scales but bring your 401k account - their prices are rediculous.
  - Subject: Re: IRT models in HO and N scales
  - Message Number: 758010
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:42 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: IRT models in HO and N scales posted by Steve on September 15, 1997 at 23:43:37: As I recall from a purchase about 25 years ago, their prices are exceeded only by their lousy attitude toward the customer who asks questions! Most of my purchases since have been mail order; I wonder why?
    - Subject: Re: IRT models in HO and N scales
    - Message Number: 758024
    - Posted by: Frank Gatazka
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:53 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: IRT models in HO and N scales posted by Gary Jacobi on September 16, 1997 at 11:55:02: My experiences with the Red Caboose have been nothing short of terrible! They often charge usuary fees for incorrectly or poorly painted brass models, or offer for sale as new, damaged or "shop worn" models. My advice to all subway modelers is to avoid this place like the plague!
      - Subject: Re: IRT models in HO and N scales
      - Message Number: 758033
      - Posted by: aaron
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:01 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: IRT models in HO and N scales posted by Frank Gatazka on September 17, 1997 at 11:51:35: Disagree, their MARKLIN stuff is quite good and priced appropriately. The two guys who run the place, Alan and Ralph are a little bit weird, but if you chat with them, they know their stuff. Ralph helped me with a pilot system for my MARKLIN set that the MARKLIN dealer in Mineola Long Island had no clue how to set up. As long as you are careful, and understand the equipment, you should be okay. Any experienced model railroader should be able to recognize damaged or "shop worn" models.
        
        Subject: Re: IRT models in HO and N scales
        Message Number: 758053
        Posted by: Frank Gatazka
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:17 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: IRT models in HO and N scales posted by aaron on September 17, 1997 at 16:54:03: I'm glad to hear that The Red Caboose is good at SOMETHING! My comments were specific to NYC subway/elevated models, and were based on the personal experiences of others and myself. The "shop worn" models were purchased via mail order, so no inspection could be made prior to the sale. In any business, there is good and bad. It appears that I have been on the receiving end of the bad, while you have had good experiences. With many hobby shops and mail order firms competing for our hard earned hobby dollars, it only makes sense to do business with those that offer WORLD CLASS SERVICE. I still stand behind my earlier commments regarding the Red Caboose for what they are worth.
        
        Subject: Re: IRT models in HO and N scales
        Message Number: 758057
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: IRT models in HO and N scales posted by Frank Gatazka on September 18, 1997 at 07:31:22: Amen to that, Frank. And one more semi-nice thing to say about Mail Order Model Railroad Houses: None can even compete with NYC Camera Shops when it comes to lousy treatment of the customer, and since they usually have the best prices and selection, you are FORCED to do business with them.
        
        Subject: Re: IRT models in HO and N scales
        Message Number: 758084
        Posted by: Matt
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: IRT models in HO and N scales posted by Gary Jacobi on September 18, 1997 at 12:05:22: I join the others in my arguement that The Red Caboose is perhaps the worst model train store in the region. I strongly suggest that people deal directly with the companies or find another hobby shop. My statement is based on my own personal experience as well as those of other subway model collectors. "Honest" Al (the name is ironic) is not trustworthy or friendly.

Thread title: Academy Staten Island Metr Tech Exp (757997)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:38:32 1997, by Chris

Subject: Academy Staten Island Metr Tech Exp
Message Number: 757997
Posted by: Chris
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:32 1997

does anyone have routing details of the new SI to Metro Tech express buses Does anyone have a contact telephone number christof@webtv.net
- Subject: Re: Academy Staten Island Metr Tech Exp
- Message Number: 758068
- Posted by: Dan
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:28 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Academy Staten Island Metr Tech Exp posted by Chris on September 15, 1997 at 20:41:04: According to the story in the S.I. Advance, the bus service will be limited to persons working at MetroTech. Tickets will only be sold to persons employed there.

Thread title: Re: Department of buses update Nova buses 8600's (758004)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:38:38 1997, by Fernando Perez

Subject: Re: Department of buses update Nova buses 8600's
Message Number: 758004
Posted by: Fernando Perez
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:38 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Department of buses update Nova buses posted by Wayne Johnson on September 15, 1997 at 13:35:06: At Amsterdam depot we have 8640-8670 and they are pretty much the same setup as the 9100's including the wheel chair lifts that are currently being installed in them cause the orginal lifts had many promblems. And they have the same type of sterring wheels like the first 8000's.

Thread title: Where was the Jerome-Anderson station of the 9th Ave El? (758006)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:38:39 1997, by Andrew Huie

Subject: Where was the Jerome-Anderson station of the 9th Ave El?
Message Number: 758006
Posted by: Andrew Huie
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:39 1997

Recently, I took a little walking trip near Yankee Stadium to look for the remains of this station. According to Joe Brennan's guide, the concrete platform foundation is located on Jerome Avenue, at street level. Yet when I went there, I didn't see anything remotely like an el station. Rather, the Jerome Ave. side of the ridge was completely covered by apartment buildings, with one exception: a short, brick building painted white with rust stains on top, with the roof area overgrown with vegetation. It was located at 162nd St. and Jerome Ave. Was this building part of the original el station, or was this a later construction? And was anyone actually able to see anything interesting from the 4 train? With the distance and the short amount of time available after leaving Yankee Stadium, it's virtually impossible to see anything interesting!
- Subject: Re: Where was the Jerome-Anderson station of the 9th Ave El?
- Message Number: 758008
- Posted by: Ed Sachs
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:41 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Where was the Jerome-Anderson station of the 9th Ave El? posted by Andrew Huie on September 16, 1997 at 01:53:21: As I recall, the station name was Anderson-Jerome. The El line turned west from River Ave. just north of 162nd St. The Anderson-Jerome station was half-elevated half-tunnel. At Jerome Ave., the station was elevated. The entrance was on ground level (turnstiles, token booth) on the East side of Jerome Ave (across from the hill). The Anderson Ave. entrance was also at ground level (somewhat like the entrances to the N-Sea Beach line in Brooklyn) on the East side of Anderson Ave., and the station was below in a tunnel. The station had a single island platform between the two tracks. I have no idea if there is any evidence of the station left, as I haven't visited the area in over 30 years.

Thread title: Trolleys in the Wall Street Journal (758007)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:38:40 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Trolleys in the Wall Street Journal
Message Number: 758007
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:40 1997

Today's (9/16) Wall St. Journal has a nice article about the internecine warfare amongst the nation's trolley museums. The winner in the 800 lb. gorilla contest??? Seashore. Branford doesn't even get mentioned.
- Subject: Re: Trolleys in the Wall Street Journal
- Message Number: 758011
- Posted by: Dan Lawrence
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:43 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Trolleys in the Wall Street Journal posted by Charles Fiori on September 16, 1997 at 08:22:45: Gee, I didn;t know there was a war going on. Does this make BSM the Switzerland of street railway museums?
  - Subject: Re: Trolleys in the Wall Street Journal
  - Message Number: 758013
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:45 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Trolleys in the Wall Street Journal posted by Dan Lawrence on September 16, 1997 at 14:43:39: Read the article. It is a war because all these museums are fighting for the same cars to add to their already bloated collections. BTW -- What's BSM?????
    - Subject: Re: Trolleys in the Wall Street Journal
    - Message Number: 758025
    - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:55 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Trolleys in the Wall Street Journal posted by Charles Fiori on September 16, 1997 at 16:58:08: BSM is the Baltimore Streetcar Museum. Also, there is a slight error in the article: car 5748 (a 1918 Brill SemiConvertible) was acquired by Seashore in 1957 because at that time the Baltimore collection (controlled by the Maryland Historical Society) was being shifted from car house to car house and there was no room for 5748 where the collection was being moved to. Since the car would have been scrapped otherwise, it was offered to Seashore. It was not "stolen" from Baltimore. Just for the record, BSM was not in existance in 1957, we were not incorporated until 1966.
      - Subject: Re: Trolleys in the Wall Street Journal
      - Message Number: 758044
      - Posted by: Fernando Perez
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:10 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Trolleys in the Wall Street Journal posted by Dan Lawrence on September 17, 1997 at 12:06:57: Bloated? With all the trolley cars destroyed thanks to GMC I dont ever think that there would be enough of these pieces of history saved.
        
        Subject: Re: Trolleys in the Wall Street Journal
        Message Number: 758217
        Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Trolleys in the Wall Street Journal posted by Fernando Perez on September 17, 1997 at 21:59:05: Unfortunately, there are some people around who love to stir the pot. For the most part relations between BSM and STM are cordial, and there is much cooperation between the two on operational matters. In recent years BSM has obtained a carbody from another system which was identical to Baltimore's semiconvertibles and possibly in better shape than 5748 which was badly deteriorated from service as a work car. At the recent ARM convention one Baltimore member expressed his appreciation for a chance to run our Peter Witt, 6144, at speed on the line, something impossible at their museum due to their location. A similar view was expressed by a Minnesota Transp. Museum member re: our gate car 1267, which like 5748 is a missing item in the hometown museum. These gentlemen were happy for the experience which is a part of the chance to "Ride Back into Yesteryear" BTW the items which 'bloat' STM's collection are mostly things which noone else wanted, items which would have been destroyed had we not stepped in. Many have a slim chance of restoration, but the at least have that chance! Gerry
        
        Subject: Re: Trolleys in the Wall Street Journal
        Message Number: 758386
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Trolleys in the Wall Street Journal posted by Gerry O'Regan on September 25, 1997 at 17:36:17: 5748 was never used in work service, but was one of the last 3 semi's in service along with cars 5706 and 5745 (on the isolated Ellicott City line). The sag in the carbody was the result of the riggers that moved the car from Rolling Road to Edmondson Ave. Car House not being experienced in moving streetcars and using a trailer that was 9 feet too short.

Thread title: Current Color scheme of R110 Series (758009)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:38:42 1997, by Nick

Subject: Current Color scheme of R110 Series
Message Number: 758009
Posted by: Nick
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:42 1997

Does the R110A still have the blue bench seats in it? For the R110B, I know the seats have both been white and green. Are they still one of those colors, or did they go to the multicolor scheme found in all the modern nyc subway cars?

Thread title: Amtrak High Speed Routes (758012)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:38:44 1997, by BJ

Subject: Amtrak High Speed Routes
Message Number: 758012
Posted by: BJ
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:44 1997

What is he next planned high speed Amtrak Route? I on a show called extreme machines that had a special on trains that Amtrak is going to soon have High Speed rail between Washington DC, NYC, and Boston. Isn't their already high speed rail between NCY and DC Called the metroliner? Anyway, way, what are some high speed routes planned for the future? When will construction of the next route begin? If you have any other info, I would be interested!
- Subject: Re: Amtrak High Speed Routes
- Message Number: 758014
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:45 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Amtrak High Speed Routes posted by BJ on September 16, 1997 at 16:47:47: That Extreme Machines piece is a couple of years or more old. Something beyond Metroliners was being planned, but I haven't heard much about it this year, what with Amtrak funds being fought over in Congress.
  - Subject: Re: Amtrak High Speed Routes
  - Message Number: 758015
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:46 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Amtrak High Speed Routes posted by Gary Jacobi on September 16, 1997 at 17:00:32: Check the FRA website; I just did and it has info circia May 1996.
    - Subject: Re: Amtrak High Speed Routes
    - Message Number: 758022
    - Posted by: Ted
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:52 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Amtrak High Speed Routes posted by BJ on September 16, 1997 at 16:47:47: Amtrak plans to introduce the "American Flyer" ( similiar to the French high-speed TGV ) in 1999 on the NEC. The trains will reach a max. speed of 150 MPH ( 241 Km/h ) on some sections. There are also plans for a high-speed rail network in Florida ( bet. Miami , Orlando and Tampa ). I don't know the completion date for that system. The trains on that network will reach a max. speed of 186 MPH ( 300 Km/h ). For more info , look at the TGV page on the European Railway Server ( there's a section on American TGVs ) : http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/home.html
      - Subject: Re: Amtrak High Speed Routes
      - Message Number: 758029
      - Posted by: Philip nasadowski
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Amtrak High Speed Routes posted by Ted on September 16, 1997 at 21:29:24: 150 top speed??? Give me a break!!! The origional Metroliner MU's (?) were supposed to do that - back in the 1960's. Although the tilt- train concept looks really sexy, I don't know of any high speed system in use that has it - and is sucessful. AFIK - the TGV doesn't tilt at all - the cars on it are also articulated BTW. If it wasn't costing so much taxpayer money, Amtrak's latest attempt at high speed rail would be even funnier. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea, but do it the way the French did: build a dedicated, carefully engineered line for it. The mixture of Highspeed / Low speed traffic on the NEC is going to be problematic, the faster trains will probbalby stress the power grid, there are a ton of ageing bridges in CT, and I don't think the signal system ANYWHERE on those lines is up to it. Add to that all the switches, etc... In short - it's not going to work, and it's not going to be here in 1999.
        
        Subject: Re: Amtrak High Speed Routes
        Message Number: 758080
        Posted by: Nathan
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Amtrak High Speed Routes posted by Ted on September 16, 1997 at 21:29:24: Florida Overland eXpress (FOX) Is a planned route, regarding the Metroliners, while, they were a flop and ugly as hell too. I heard the American flyer will be another joint TGV project built by Bombardier and GEC Alsthom. I do not see why the speeds on the American Flyer will only be kept at 150mph, seeing as a TGV Atlantique set set the speed record at 513.7km/h during a test... After Florida Overland eXpress another line considered for High Speed rail is the Vancouver (Can)-Seattle-Portland line, currently using Spanish built tilting TALGO Pendular stock, powered by aging F-40s. TALGO stock is capable of 200km/h service speed (On Spanish tracks) but the problem lies in replacing the F-40's with a low slung loco, such as VIA's LRC...
        
        Subject: Re: Amtrak High Speed Routes
        Message Number: 758090
        Posted by: David Eerdmans
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Amtrak High Speed Routes posted by Philip nasadowski on September 17, 1997 at 13:22:04: It's true that the TGV doesn't tilt (though a tilting TGV is planned). The American Flyer also isn't a TGV, but it uses some TGV concepts. It's true that tilting trains on normal rails cause some problems, but otherwise they had to built a high-speed line, which is very expensive. There are some tilting trains projects that are a great succes: the Eurostar Italia or Pendolino in Italy, and the X2000 in Sweden.
        
        Subject: Re: Amtrak High Speed Routes
        Message Number: 758104
        Posted by: Andrew Byler
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:56 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Amtrak High Speed Routes posted by Philip nasadowski on September 17, 1997 at 13:22:04: Some of you have a lot of misinformation on this project. Why only 150 mph? 1) Too many sharp curves. This speed will be obtained only between Trenton and New Brunswick, and in Rhode Island and maybe Massachesetts north of Attleboro. 2) Old Catenary lines must be replaced by constant tensioning system to allow this. 3) Going incrementally faster than this is not worth the investment. The money is better spent bringing a 80 mph slow order up to 110 mph. Where is all the money going? 1) More concrete ties everywhere. If you bother to go and look, you'll notice the concrete ties are being placed on nearly every rehabbed section. 2) New high speed turnouts - the new ones are good for 80 mph, the old ones were for no more than 45 mph. 3) A new Penn Station - you ever heard of ANYTHING cheap in New York? 4) Interlocking redesigns - although most have now been reconfigured, there are still some major ones being pondered, including Shell in New Rochelle and Zoo, in Philadelphia. 5) Extending CTEC (Centralized Traffic and Electrification Control). In case you hadn't noticed, Amtrak has closed almost all of its towers and has rebuilt the entire signal system - it is now using color position lights, for example. 6) Upgrading track. The 110 mph and 125 mph sections are inexoribly spreading. For example, a few years ago, The track near Levittown, PA was upgraded to this speed. 7) Experimental research - there are lots of problems in the old infrastructre which Amtrak is trying to iron out. Why not build a new line? Just two questions to answer an immensely stupid question. Where the heck would you put in the northeast, and still serve the existing population? And where would all the money come from to buy up all that land? Andy Byler
        
        Subject: Re: Amtrak High Speed Routes
        Message Number: 758131
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Amtrak High Speed Routes posted by Andrew Byler on September 21, 1997 at 11:33:14: I know this was not the point you wished to make, but it does bring out what a poor job of informing the taxpayer has been done by this projects managers.

Thread title: What is FRA's address? (Was Re: Amtrak High Speed Routes) (758017)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:38:48 1997, by BJ

Subject: What is FRA's address? (Was Re: Amtrak High Speed Routes)
Message Number: 758017
Posted by: BJ
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:48 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Amtrak High Speed Routes posted by Gary Jacobi on September 16, 1997 at 17:22:50: What is the FRA's internet site address????
- Subject: Re: What is FRA's address? (Was Re: Amtrak High Speed Routes)
- Message Number: 758018
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:49 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]What is FRA's address? (Was Re: Amtrak High Speed Routes) posted by BJ on September 16, 1997 at 19:00:44: www.fra.dot.gov

Thread title: Correction about Cinderblock Supports (758021)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:38:51 1997, by Steve

Subject: Correction about Cinderblock Supports
Message Number: 758021
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:51 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: 4 train yard posted by Mark S Feinman on September 15, 1997 at 13:03:26: I stand by my original statement that the lead form the #4 line into Concourse Yard is perfectly sound, with no cinderblock supports. However, perhaps you have confused two pieces of information. The automobile bridges, which span Concourse Yard, are in dreadful shape. Both, the Bedford park Blvd. bridge (closed to auto traffic) and the 205th Street overpass are in such poor shape that they are propped up with timbers, tempory girders and concrete blocks. The two bridges are currently being rebuilt over the next 2 years.
- Subject: Re: Correction about Cinderblock Supports
- Message Number: 758027
- Posted by: Brian
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:56 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Correction about Cinderblock Supports posted by Steve on September 16, 1997 at 21:22:35: Are they both going to be closed at the same time? I hope not. I need to cross one of those bridges to get to school from the Bedford Park Boulevard 4 station (I go to Bronx Science)
  - Subject: Re: Correction about Cinderblock Supports
  - Message Number: 758045
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:10 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Correction about Cinderblock Supports posted by Brian on September 17, 1997 at 13:13:55: Common sense would have dictated that the Bedford Park Bridge, which has been closed to auto traffic for many years, be torn down and replaced before work began on the 205th Street bridge had begun. Ah but in NYC, politics reigns supreme and so both bridges will be closed, 1 side at a time, and will be rebuilt simultaneously. Neither bridge will be totally closed for any significant period of time and your education should go uninterrupted.

Thread title: red signs, green signs (758023)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:38:53 1997, by aaron

Subject: red signs, green signs
Message Number: 758023
Posted by: aaron
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:53 1997

I saw on a southbound #9 train this morning, a green 9 on the side of one of the cars as opposed to a red 9. Was there 9 service planned for the Lex at some point?
- Subject: Re: red signs, green signs
- Message Number: 758026
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:56 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]red signs, green signs posted by aaron on September 17, 1997 at 10:26:59: I've never heard anything about 9 service on the Lexington line. As far as I know, the 9 has never been anything except a rush-hour variant of the 1.
  - Subject: Re: red signs, green signs
  - Message Number: 758028
  - Posted by: Stan
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:57 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: red signs, green signs posted by Peter Rosa on September 17, 1997 at 12:56:07: Just a thought... could it have been the #6 not rolled correctly so that it appeared as a 9??
    - Subject: Re: red signs, green signs
    - Message Number: 758042
    - Posted by: Allan
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:08 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]red signs, green signs posted by aaron on September 17, 1997 at 10:26:59: I would say that when the sign roll was installed, it was put in in reverse (or upside down if you prefer).
      - Subject: Re: red signs, green signs
      - Message Number: 758043
      - Posted by: Jeff
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]red signs, green signs posted by aaron on September 17, 1997 at 10:26:59: The numbers system is really weird. I remember seeing a sign on a 6 train at Brooklyn Bridge that had a white #10 on a green circle. Go figure! I think that the number rolls probably go from 1-10 red,1-10 green and 1-10 purple because those are the only IRT colors.
        
        Subject: Re: red signs, green signs
        Message Number: 758125
        Posted by: John
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: red signs, green signs posted by Jeff on September 17, 1997 at 21:21:33: The #10 train, huh? I guess that managed to turn a lot of heads. I was also on a train that had #2 roller signs on the front, and #3 signs on the side. Since I needed the #2, all through Manhattan, I was debating on which one it was (the destination signs didn't help. This is what was posted: Dyre Avenue Utica Avenue 3 7th Avenue Express It turned out to be the #2, because it took me to E. Tremont Avenue, and eventually the Bronx Zoo.
        
        Subject: Re: red signs, green signs
        Message Number: 758145
        Posted by: jeff
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: red signs, green signs posted by John on September 21, 1997 at 21:57:07: On the r33's and other trains where passengers can change the side signs, use the front signs or ask the conductor. Never trust the side signs! P.S. How come the NYCTA didnt remove the rollers on the r33's like on the r32's?
        
        Subject: Re: red signs, green signs
        Message Number: 758155
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: red signs, green signs posted by John on September 21, 1997 at 21:57:07: that's because people love to play with those little dials that change the signs on the redbirds... :> I stopped doing that, though, after I got a stern reprimand from an undercover officer. -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: red signs, green signs
        Message Number: 758187
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: red signs, green signs posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 23, 1997 at 15:34:24: Except for the redbirds (with cranks) and R44/R-46( Luminator (r) LED Signs) all current R equipment has signs without the crank attachment, which is presumably carried by crew members to eliminate this temptation .

Thread title: New LIRR Diesels???? (758030)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:38:59 1997, by Phil Nasadowski

Subject: New LIRR Diesels????
Message Number: 758030
Posted by: Phil Nasadowski
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:38:59 1997

Does anyone know when / if the LIRR is getting its new dual mode fleet? I heard a mention of it a few years back, and I knoe GM is building a new plant for them, but I haven't heard anything lately about it. Did it die of budget cuts?? Is it delayed?? Am I still going to be riding the same Eisenhower era "Rustliners" into the year 2000??
- Subject: Re: New LIRR Diesels????
- Message Number: 758031
- Posted by: Charles
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:00 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]New LIRR Diesels???? posted by Phil Nasadowski on September 17, 1997 at 13:24:32: I am not very familiar with commuter railroad equipment, but I saw a picture and the design for the Locomotive in Railway Age last month. They will look similar to the Loco's that Amtrak is using in California. The only difference is the what i believe to be lousy blue and yellow scheme.
  - Subject: Re: New LIRR Diesels????
  - Message Number: 758032
  - Posted by: aaron
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:00 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: New LIRR Diesels???? posted by Charles on September 17, 1997 at 14:39:33: There is at least one train set running w/two dual mode diesel locomotives at each end. The train consists of 9 or 10 double-deck coaches. However, there have been serious problems with the units, causing them to be out of service about 20 percent of the time. I believe there is a big problem with the trains and the LIRR has been covering up for the past six months. This subject was discussed on this website a few months ago.
    - Subject: Re: New LIRR Diesels????
    - Message Number: 758035
    - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:03 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: New LIRR Diesels???? posted by Charles on September 17, 1997 at 14:39:33: You saw a picture of the so-called California locomotive, which is being supplied in several paint schemes. Check out www.dot.ca.gov/hq/rail for more info.
      - Subject: Re: New LIRR Diesels????
      - Message Number: 758037
      - Posted by: Bryan Layne
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]New LIRR Diesels???? posted by Phil Nasadowski on September 17, 1997 at 13:24:32: Actually,there is one already on the property.I believe it was delivered in July but its not there now because its undergoing tests out west somewhere.The Super Steel/GM locomotives are very nice looking.They are corugated silver on sides and blue cab and yellow front.It looks more like it should be operating in Great Britain somewere...but dont get the wrong idea..its a great looking loco and will look and do very good on the LIRR. This months Railpace Newsmagazine has a picture and short article on it.
        
        Subject: Re: New LIRR Diesels????
        Message Number: 758065
        Posted by: follower
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:26 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: New LIRR Diesels???? posted by Bryan Layne on September 17, 1997 at 17:49:23:
        
        Subject: Re: New LIRR Diesels????
        Message Number: 758066
        Posted by: follower
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: New LIRR Diesels???? posted by Bryan Layne on September 17, 1997 at 17:49:23: I am glad to know that the LIRR has spent money on these new locomotives. They sound like their beautiful looking machines. It seems odd to me though that even though the machines are great looking, why in the world does the LIRR need them. With the majority of their fleet electric, the new training for LIRR personnell, may cost more than the new fleet of locomotives themself. I just ask the old age question to you train buff brother, why mess with a good thing?
        
        Subject: Re: New LIRR Diesels????
        Message Number: 758067
        Posted by: sean
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: New LIRR Diesels???? posted by Bryan Layne on September 17, 1997 at 17:49:23: I am glad to know that the LIRR has spent money on these new locomotives. They sound like their beautiful looking machines. It seems odd to me though that even though the machines are great looking, why in the world does the LIRR need them. With the majority of their fleet electric, the new training for LIRR personnell, may cost more than the new fleet of locomotives themself. I just ask the old age question to you train buff brother, why mess with a good thing?
        
        Subject: Re: New LIRR Diesels????
        Message Number: 758073
        Posted by: Dave
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:32 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: New LIRR Diesels???? posted by sean on September 19, 1997 at 00:25:42: With several branches still "dieselized" (Port Jeff, Greenport, Montauk) and the GP-38's and MP15's not getting any younger (let's not even talk about the power pack units!), it's time for new motive power. It will be years, if ever, before these branches are electrified.
        
        Subject: Re: New LIRR Diesels????
        Message Number: 758075
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:34 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: New LIRR Diesels???? posted by follower on September 19, 1997 at 00:24:36: Because with a substation each mile, $1,000,000+ a car, and let's not even mention LILCO, it's still is viewed that electrification is way too expensive. If the LIRR even bothers to finish off any line, Port Jeff will probbly be it. Then Montauk. I don't think GreenPort will ever get it, and Oyster Bay will be long gone by the time the LIRR starts think electric again.
        
        Subject: Re: New LIRR Diesels????
        Message Number: 758078
        Posted by: ~airplane
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: New LIRR Diesels???? posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 19, 1997 at 10:18:23: Also, let's not forget how much more reliable diesel locomotives have been in the wintertime, especially in the last few years. The blizzards in '93 and '96 crippled MNR and LIRR's entire electric fleet, and there weren't enough cars left to sustain anything close to normal service.
        
        Subject: Re: New LIRR Diesels????
        Message Number: 758083
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: New LIRR Diesels???? posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 19, 1997 at 10:18:23: >I don't think Greenport will ever get it [electrification], and Oyster >Bay will be long gone by the time the LIRR starts to think electric again Aren't these supposed to be the other way around? There have been discussions about ending service on the Greenport branch, but not Oyster Bay.
        
        Subject: Re: New LIRR Diesels????
        Message Number: 758086
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: New LIRR Diesels???? posted by sean on September 19, 1997 at 00:25:42: The LIRR needs diesel locomotives (and diesel-pulled coaches) because significant parts of its routes are non-electrified. These include: The entire Oyster Bay line. The Montauk line east of Babylon. The Pt. Jefferson line east of Huntington. The main line to Greenport, east of Ronkonkoma. The lines to Hunterspoint Avenue and Long Island City. The Central Branch cutoff between Bethpage and Babylon.

Thread title: Commuter Rail Car Models (SEPTA, PRR, NJT) (758036)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:39:03 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Commuter Rail Car Models (SEPTA, PRR, NJT)
Message Number: 758036
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:03 1997

Can anyone tell me if there ever has been, or will be HO scale models of MU commuter rail cars, such as the Budd and GE Silverliners used by SEPTA, and NJT? I know that Walthers have a series of the newer Horizon push-pull commuter cars available with SEPTA, NJT, and Metro-North markings, but I've never seen models of MU Silverliners, many of which are identified by their oval or capsule shaped side windows. If there are MU cars available in HO, or even N scale, Can anyone tell me where I would most likely find them? Thanks.
- Subject: Re: Commuter Rail Car Models (SEPTA, PRR, NJT)
- Message Number: 758082
- Posted by: Matt
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:39 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Commuter Rail Car Models (SEPTA, PRR, NJT) posted by Timothy on September 17, 1997 at 17:42:28: Imperial Hobby Images has plans to build HO scale models of the Arrow I MU cars. However, these are quite different than the Arrow II/III and Silverliner IV cars (especially the windows). Hopefully, there will be Arrow III models around soon (preferably in O scale, but if necessary HO). If anyone is interested in custom-building models of these cars, please e-mail me. Thanks.

Thread title: LIRR -- In the past... (758039)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:39:06 1997, by Daniel A. Valles

Subject: LIRR -- In the past...
Message Number: 758039
Posted by: Daniel A. Valles
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:06 1997

I was just wondering... Can any of the SUBTALK writers recommend books on the history of the LIRR... I want to inquire about the Bay Ridge, Rockaway, and Sheepshead Bay (?) branches... Also, are there any stations in either Brooklyn or Queens that have been closed down by the LIRR... I enjoy looking up the history of the transportation services in the Metro NY area... Thanking in advance, Daniel Valles, Student -- Pace U. P.S. -- If you can advise me of any maps as well, I'll appreciate it...
- Subject: Re: LIRR -- In the past...
- Message Number: 758041
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:07 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]LIRR -- In the past... posted by Daniel A. Valles on September 17, 1997 at 18:58:53: I have several interesting books on the subject, which I will pull out tonight to make sure of the titles. The one that comes closest to your request is probably out of print; it is called something like "The Diary of an Apprentice Railroad Engineer " I picked it up at a book sale, and almost did not realize it was about the LIRR.
  - Subject: Re: LIRR -- In the past...
  - Message Number: 758052
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:16 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]LIRR -- In the past... posted by Daniel A. Valles on September 17, 1997 at 18:58:53: There was a series of books by Vincent Seyfried, very few of which are still in print. I bought two of the volumes some years back. Check the many book ads in "Trains", etc. or head to everyone's favorite train shop on 45th Street. They have a good selection of older RR books.
    - Subject: Re: LIRR -- In the past...
    - Message Number: 758054
    - Posted by: Dave
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:17 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]LIRR -- In the past... posted by Daniel A. Valles on September 17, 1997 at 18:58:53: Try these: 1) "Long Island Rail Road Memories," Richard Harrison 2) "Steel Rails to the Sunrise," Ron Ziel and George Foster 3) "Long Island Rail Road in Early Photographs," Ron Ziel 4) "Victorian Railroad Stations of Long Island," Ron Ziel and Richard Wettereau For Rockaway, check out "Change at Ozone Park, " by Herbert George. You might also find some information in "The Pennsy Era on Long Island," by Ron Ziel.
      - Subject: Re: LIRR -- In the past...
      - Message Number: 758055
      - Posted by: Peter Rosa
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]LIRR -- In the past... posted by Daniel A. Valles on September 17, 1997 at 18:58:53: Several Brooklyn and Queens LIRR stations have indeed been shut down over the years. Some of these happened years ago when the subways came to Queens. Others were more recent, when the LIRR began reducing its local service in the area. Some of the closed stations include: Woodhaven (Flatbush Avenue branch, the only underground one on the list); Union Hall and Bell-Aire (main line), Winfield and Rego Park (near the Pt. Washington junction), and Springfield Gardens (Babylon branch). There are others as well, such as those on the former Whitestone branch, but I don't have their names. In addition, several stations on the line to Long Island City will be gone soon.
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR -- In the past...
        Message Number: 758062
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: LIRR -- In the past... posted by Peter Rosa on September 18, 1997 at 09:23:49: Don't forget Elmhurst on the Port Wash branch
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR -- In the past...
        Message Number: 758063
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR -- In the past... posted by Charles Fiori on September 18, 1997 at 15:42:19: [re abandoned Queens LIRR stations] >don't forget Elmhurst on the Pt. Wash branch Thanks for reminding me. I've heard that Elmhurst, as well as Rego Park and maybe Winfield, was closed after subway expansion made it redundant. Most of the other Queens station closures resulted from ridership declines or line abandonments.
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR -- In the past...
        Message Number: 758070
        Posted by: aaron
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR -- In the past... posted by Peter Rosa on September 18, 1997 at 16:35:14: You forgot Spring Garden, near St. Albans
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR -- In the past...
        Message Number: 758081
        Posted by: Bob A
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: LIRR -- In the past... posted by aaron on September 19, 1997 at 08:52:43: That's Springfield Gardens. Also Woodhaven Blvd between Jamaica and East New York. And there was an old Hillside station, west of the current Hillside Facility. Portions of the old platform are still visible on the Main Line just east of the split from the Babylon branch.
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR -- In the past...
        Message Number: 758117
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR -- In the past... posted by Peter Rosa on September 18, 1997 at 16:35:14: I thought Elmhurst was a fairly recent closure, relative to Winfield and Rego Park. I seem to remember it being listed 15-20 years ago. Also, there is Ozone Park, north of the A train's Rockaway Blvd station, and Woodhaven (located above the underground station and elevated). These were both part of the Rockaway Beach branch. They can only be viewed from street level, unless you borrow a big ladder.
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR -- In the past...
        Message Number: 758122
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:12 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR -- In the past... posted by Andrew Huie on September 21, 1997 at 18:53:28: I was wondering whether the abandoned A train platform at Aqueduct race track qualifies as an abandoned LIRR station. Does it pre-date the subway system's takeover of the LIRR's Far Rockaway branch?
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR -- In the past...
        Message Number: 758169
        Posted by: Dave
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR -- In the past... posted by Peter Rosa on September 21, 1997 at 21:41:06: Yes it does. The last year of LIRR service to Aqueduct Race was 1955.

Thread title: NEW INFO - Bi-Level fleet (758046)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:39:11 1997, by Steve

Subject: NEW INFO - Bi-Level fleet
Message Number: 758046
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:11 1997

In Reply to: [6]New LIRR Diesels???? posted by Phil Nasadowski on September 17, 1997 at 13:24:32: According to a LIRR Engineer friend of mine, the first new dual mode loco has been delivered and is undergoing testing in Colorado. Another bit of news: According to the same person, once the new Bi-levels are delivered, the current Bi-level train, with Dual Power FL-9AC locos #300 and 302, will be transferred to service on Metro-North

Thread title: Bi-Level fleet troubles (758047)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:39:12 1997, by Steve

Subject: Bi-Level fleet troubles
Message Number: 758047
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:12 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: New LIRR Diesels???? posted by aaron on September 17, 1997 at 16:48:02: The Bi-Level train is out of service about 10% of the time. The problems have been well documented. However, I've heard that the similar units on Metro-North have had more serious problems which have not been documented. Supposedly, the trains operate into Grand Central in 'D' (Diesel) mode rather than 'E' mode, on a regular basis.....
- Subject: Re: Bi-Level fleet troubles
- Message Number: 758050
- Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:14 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Bi-Level fleet troubles posted by Steve on September 17, 1997 at 22:36:19: All the problems are due to the FL-9's. They're late 50's vintage, and I believe they didn't work right back them. MN also pulls their Genises (Sp?) IIs into GCT under diesel too... Actually, I've never seen either of them in electric mode. I tend to think that Diesel operation in their is routine right now. The last FL-9 I saw the other week was running its diesel. All origional inside too. Nicew things is that these locos have windows on the sides, and you can see what's inside them. The engineer was checking something in their and let me poke my head in (but not enter for obvious reasons) the door. They still have their steam generators in them too, or at least this one did. The rear one was modified for HEP. He said that Metro North is canning them in another year or so as more of the GE locos come online. I don't know why the GE ones run diesel into GCT, and I think it's more third rail related than defects in the locomotive, saying that I've seen plenty of Amtrak ones go into and out of Penn under third rail - they really spark and arc though....
  - Subject: Re: Bi-Level fleet troubles
  - Message Number: 758072
  - Posted by: aaron
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:31 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Bi-Level fleet troubles posted by Steve on September 17, 1997 at 22:36:19: It was out today, so that is once this week, or 20 percent
    - Subject: Re: Bi-Level fleet troubles
    - Message Number: 758118
    - Posted by: Andrew Huie
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:09 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Bi-Level fleet troubles posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 18, 1997 at 01:04:40: Could the reason the locomotives use diesel power in GCT is that GCT has trouble supplying power to all the trains coming in or out during rush hours? When I've ridden MN MU's out of GCT I notice that they switch off the AC and much of the lights.
      - Subject: Re: Bi-Level fleet troubles
      - Message Number: 758124
      - Posted by: John
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Bi-Level fleet troubles posted by Andrew Huie on September 21, 1997 at 19:58:47: The same thing happens to the LIRR MUs at Penn Station. I don't think it has anything to do with the amount of electricity supplied to the station, though. Many of the older subway trains used to do this (the Flushing R-33s and R-36s still do), but I don't know the exact cause of this (more precisely, I don't really know why the lights-off occurs sometimes and other times it doesn't).

Thread title: Safety Controller on NYC subways and others (758048)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:39:13 1997, by John Pevcevicius

Subject: Safety Controller on NYC subways and others
Message Number: 758048
Posted by: John Pevcevicius
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:13 1997

I'm looking for some pictures or training manual diagrams of the power and brake controls for subways all over North America because in Toronto we have just received a new model called the 'T1' and it is causing most of the operators pain in their arms, hands, wrists and shoulders because of the new design of the safety controller (power & brake). The Toronto Transit Commission is claiming that their are other cities with the same kind of controls as ours but we have yet to find any similar to ours.
- Subject: Re: Safety Controller on NYC subways and others
- Message Number: 758051
- Posted by: Phil Nasadowski
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:15 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Safety Controller on NYC subways and others posted by John Pevcevicius on September 17, 1997 at 23:17:40: Describe it for us?? The NY subways are mostly 2 handle jobs (power to the left, brake to the right). Looks much like the drum controller on a trolley. Septa uses Cineston (?) single handle jobs. Patco is slide handle. NJT Mus have 2 handle controllers, but the power one is a vertical lever you turn to the right for forward and left for reverse. I think the MP-54s were like that too. The M-1/2/3/4/6's are single handle controllers, like a cineston. Not sure what the T or CTA.
  - Subject: Re: Safety Controller on NYC subways and others
  - Message Number: 758076
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:34 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Safety Controller on NYC subways and others posted by John Pevcevicius on September 17, 1997 at 23:17:40: I can remember that the Chief Motorman Instructor at the NYCTA back in the early 80s was bascially against the single-handle Cineston-type controllers because he did not want his motormen then (no women at that time) to become dependent on only using one hand. The R46s in NY had single handles, as did the R44s, which were of the slide variety. They had to be twisted to either a 9 o'clock or 3 o'clock position to activate, with power settings up and brake down. These slides were replaced with very clunky Cineston types. Here in Chicago, I believe most of the controllers on current equipment are of the slide variety. Older cars did have the clunky Cineston variety, I believe. I keep saying 'clunky' because it seems the ones on the M1s, 2s, 3s, etc. are a bit sleeker and smaller.
    - Subject: Re: Safety Controller on NYC subways and others
    - Message Number: 758100
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:53 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Safety Controller on NYC subways and others posted by John Pevcevicius on September 17, 1997 at 23:17:40: Elsewhere on this site, I have a picture posted of the R-110b Master Controller handle. This is, by far, the most uncomfortable master controller handle I have ever felt. This includes the old R-44/R46 slide controller as well as the R-44/R-46 currently used master controllers.
      - Subject: Re: Safety Controller on NYC subways and others
      - Message Number: 758218
      - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:32 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Safety Controller on NYC subways and others posted by Steve on September 21, 1997 at 01:17:46: Boston equipment used a large version of the cineston controller for many years. These were different in appearance but consistent in function and comfort on all cars. The newest Red Line cars (01800s) are similar to the controller Steve described and are also plagued by complaints. The LRVs also used a sliding controller, which was better received but not because of comfort. A correctly adjusted tie-wrap, appropriately placed, would bypass the dead-man!

Thread title: NYC Transit Bus Schedules questions (758056)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:39:19 1997, by chris

Subject: NYC Transit Bus Schedules questions
Message Number: 758056
Posted by: chris
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:19 1997

are there any other sites that list bus route changes,,service changes,schedules besides this one
- Subject: Re: NYC Transit Bus Schedules questions
- Message Number: 758059
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:21 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]NYC Transit Bus Schedules questions posted by chris on September 18, 1997 at 10:56:15: This site doesn't list any of that stuff. You can get to it via links from here but we don't technically "have it on our site". See the MTA New York City Transit site at [7]www.mta.nyc.ny.us for that stuff. You might find unofficial schedules pages elsewhere but the MTA site carries the straight poop on the matter. --Dave

Thread title: Visiting Chicago This Weekend (758058)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:39:21 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Visiting Chicago This Weekend
Message Number: 758058
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:21 1997

I will be in Chicago this weekend (9/20-9/23), to ride and photograph the "L" and subway system. As of now, I don't know anyone in the Chicago area, who could show me around. Would it be possible to make arrangements with someone in Subtalk, who is from the Chicago area to meet me, and give me the "grand tour" of the "L"? Also, there are a couple of lines I want to photograph that go through questionable neighborhoods. Two lines in particular are the Lake Street, and the 63/Cottage Grove (Jackson Park) Lines. I would very much like to have someone accompany me when I photograph the stations, and El structures along these lines. I really hope someone can help me. Thanks.

Thread title: A very Outrageous Claim! (758060)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:39:22 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: A very Outrageous Claim!
Message Number: 758060
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:22 1997

A couple of nights ago on the History Channel,they had a show about trains. On this show they briefly mentioned the London Underground as the "first subway system" Although I realize this an established fact, I know that they started out with steam locos(!). This got me mulling over transit history; it really occured to me that one could make the claim that the original Belmont subway could really be called the first REAL subway in at least the US, if not the world!!! But first a few caveats: By subway i mean a rapid transit system that was not an extension of existing trolley or el lines (cf: Boston,and afew others),and I mean rapid transit: I hardly consider steam power "rapid", especially underground. Even elecric locos aren't as quick as MU control. So heres my claim-Lets here all the arguments pro & con; especially with the centennial coming soon!!
- Subject: Re: A very Outrageous Claim!
- Message Number: 758061
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:23 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]A very Outrageous Claim! posted by Lou from Middletown on September 18, 1997 at 13:26:54: Did you mean to say Belmont, or were you thinking of the Beach Pneumatic Subway? The Beach has a reasonable claim, since they did collect fares for a while, and who is to say if it really went anywhere or not!
  - Subject: Re: A very Outrageous Claim!
  - Message Number: 758219
  - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:33 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: A very Outrageous Claim! posted by Gary Jacobi on September 18, 1997 at 13:44:02: If you want to carry this a little further, let's discard the IRT since that equipment was designed to the same dimensions as the el cars. Boston, the BMT and Philadelphia all opened subways with cars designed to take advantage of wider and straighter tunnels, I don't have all the dates but maybe one of these should get the honors!

Thread title: septa (758064)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:39:25 1997, by Joshua Trower

Subject: septa
Message Number: 758064
Posted by: Joshua Trower
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:25 1997

On what lines and trains are Septa using AEM-7's?
- Subject: Re: septa
- Message Number: 758069
- Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:29 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]septa posted by Joshua Trower on September 18, 1997 at 23:07:42: SEPTA mostly uses its AEM-7s on the R5 Paoli-Downingtown (Ex-PRR Main Line) peak hour expresses & limiteds. I believe that they also are used on a couple of peak-hour trips on the R7 Trenton (NE Corridor)line. If you read Railpace, the column "SEPTA Scene" usually gives a breakdown of the current assignments for the AEM-7s with each SEPTA schedule change. Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA

Thread title: British Rail Crash (758074)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:39:33 1997, by aaron

Subject: British Rail Crash
Message Number: 758074
Posted by: aaron
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:33 1997

Big British Rail Passenger/Freight train crash today. See CNN
- Subject: Re: British Rail Crash
- Message Number: 758079
- Posted by: Nathan
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:37 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]British Rail Crash posted by aaron on September 19, 1997 at 10:05:10: What property?? (Virgin, GNER, Networker...etc?)
  - Subject: Re: British Rail Crash
  - Message Number: 758246
  - Posted by: Keranu
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:55 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: British Rail Crash posted by Nathan on September 19, 1997 at 16:35:01: The crash happened on the main intercity line out of London Paddington. It was in a London suburb called Southall. I guess that since the only company running trains between Paddington and the West of England and Wales is Great Western Trains, it must have been that company. I also know that they reckon the APT wasn't working and that 6 people died. The UK government leapt into action with an enquiry but that will probably not achieve much. Miracle it wasn't as bad as the Clapham Junction crash some years ago.
    - Subject: Re: British Rail Crash
    - Message Number: 758250
    - Posted by: John
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:58 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: British Rail Crash posted by Keranu on September 28, 1997 at 09:13:16: Wasn't there a problem with the APT some years back because they tilted too much on the curves and were in danger of slicing the side off of a passing train?
      - Subject: Re: British Rail Crash
      - Message Number: 758434
      - Posted by: John da stranger
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: British Rail Crash posted by Keranu on September 28, 1997 at 09:13:16: Now what caused that crash??? Mech fail????? SOMETHING??????
        
        Subject: Re: British Rail Crash
        Message Number: 758509
        Posted by: Nathan
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: British Rail Crash posted by Keranu on September 28, 1997 at 09:13:16: I heard it was an Intercity 125 that crashed, about the APT, it hasn't worked since 86 and is left rotting outside Crewe, saw it last summer.

Thread title: misc. (758077)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:39:35 1997, by Joshua Trower

Subject: misc.
Message Number: 758077
Posted by: Joshua Trower
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:35 1997

Has any body heard about the new electrics and Bi-Level cars for Marc? Also, has anybody seen the Genesis units in the new paint scheme? I saw #105 in the new scheme at 30th Street Station.

Thread title: Re: Safety Controller on NYC subways and others(r42?) (758085)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:39:41 1997, by Fernando Perez

Subject: Re: Safety Controller on NYC subways and others(r42?)
Message Number: 758085
Posted by: Fernando Perez
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:41 1997

In Reply to: [6]Safety Controller on NYC subways and others posted by John Pevcevicius on September 17, 1997 at 23:17:40: When I was younger, I can vaguely remember seeing a Westcode type of controller in a r42 cab I was peeking into as it sat at a station. Does anyone know how many r42's were fitted with the single type of controller?
- Subject: Re: Safety Controller on NYC subways and others(r42?)
- Message Number: 758087
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:43 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Safety Controller on NYC subways and others(r42?) posted by Fernando Perez on September 19, 1997 at 22:09:28: There were 10 R-42s equiped with this master controller. They were assigned to the B line during the testing period

Thread title: N.Y.C.Visit (758088)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:39:44 1997, by John Downing

Subject: N.Y.C.Visit
Message Number: 758088
Posted by: John Downing
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:44 1997

I will be visiting NYC for the weekend Sept.26-28. Can anyone email me the location of the Subway Museum and any info on tours or special events that weekend? TIA John
- Subject: Re: N.Y.C.Visit
- Message Number: 758089
- Posted by: Daniel A. Valles
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:45 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]N.Y.C.Visit posted by John Downing on September 20, 1997 at 12:47:48: The Transit Museum is located in Downtown Brooklyn, where the old Court Street station used to be... It is on Boerum Place and Schermerhorn Street (I believe)... They are open every day except Sunday and one day during the week (Monday or Tuesday)... It is open from 10 AM to 4 PM... I went there three weeks ago... ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS! Call up the MTA... Or go on-line and look up there web page... You can get info from there...
  - Subject: Re: N.Y.C.Visit
  - Message Number: 758144
  - Posted by: Adam
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:30 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]N.Y.C.Visit posted by John Downing on September 20, 1997 at 12:47:48: There is actually one tour that weekend on September 27 called The Brooklyn Els. The description in the brochure from the Museum describes it as "Tour the most complex elevated junction in the world today. See how the Els connect to the subway." This might be full, but it's worth a try at least. To make reservations (required) call 718-243-8601 Monday thru Friday 10-4. The cost is $15 for nonmembers and $10 for members Good Luck and enjoy your trip to NYC!

Thread title: Re: N.Y.C.Visit- correctons (758091)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:39:46 1997, by David L.

Subject: Re: N.Y.C.Visit- correctons
Message Number: 758091
Posted by: David L.
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:46 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: N.Y.C.Visit posted by Daniel A. Valles on September 20, 1997 at 16:21:24: They are open Tuesdays through Fridays, 10 AM to 4 PM, and Saturdays and Sundays, 12 noon to 5 PM. They are closed on Mondays. The address to the Transit Museum Web Page is: [6]http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/Museum/musmain.htm

Thread title: R-units (758092)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:39:47 1997, by zygot

Subject: R-units
Message Number: 758092
Posted by: zygot
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:47 1997

what is the highest number R-unit currently in service?
- Subject: Re: R-units
- Message Number: 758093
- Posted by: John
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:48 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]R-units posted by zygot on September 20, 1997 at 20:10:08: R-110.
  - Subject: Re: R-units
  - Message Number: 758096
  - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:50 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: R-units posted by John on September 20, 1997 at 21:03:21: No, actually there are R-127 units. There are 10 such units in the system. They are work motors and look like 62's with only 1 set of side doors and no windows. Better you don't know how much they cost.....
    - Subject: Re: R-units
    - Message Number: 758097
    - Posted by: Anthony Thomasel
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:51 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: R-units posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 20, 1997 at 23:21:27: Actually, the system is up to R143 (known as the R131 or R110B), as the purchase contract was made for the New Tech cars (r142 and R143). Regarding the R142, anyone go to that "demo" of the R142 way back when at Transit Central in Brooklyn?
      - Subject: Re: R-units
      - Message Number: 758098
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: R-units posted by Anthony Thomasel on September 21, 1997 at 00:32:37: The question was "Currently in service". The R-142 & R-143 do not exixt yet, therefore, they can not be in service.
        
        Subject: Re: R-units
        Message Number: 758099
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]R-units posted by zygot on September 20, 1997 at 20:10:08: There are actually a few units designated as R-134s. They are work motors similar to the R-127s but I would have to believe that even they are not the highest R number around. The new vacuum train would be higher although I do not have that number right now (and technically, it's in testing and not in service). However, if you are asking about revenus vehicles, then it would be the R-110s.
        
        Subject: Re: R-units
        Message Number: 758106
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: R-units posted by Steve on September 21, 1997 at 01:11:06: Actually, the R-110a/b is the name of the design study. The actual contract numbers for the cars is r136 and r137 (I think...I read this somewhere, I may have the numbers wrong) -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: R-units
        Message Number: 758107
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: R-units posted by Steve on September 21, 1997 at 01:07:21: Actually, there was a second order for work motors similar to R127, I think R129 was the number. I'm trying to remember where it was I saw the complte list of R-contracts....there were a bunch that were cancelled... -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: R-units
        Message Number: 758112
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: R-units posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 21, 1997 at 11:39:27: Technically, you may be correct, however, in day to day operations the trains are referred to as the R-110a and R-110b. No one in operations at the TA knows these two trains by any other designation.
        
        Subject: Re: R-units
        Message Number: 758113
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: R-units posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 21, 1997 at 11:44:12: The question is still 'R' units currently in service. Cancelled car contracts do not qualify according to the criteria of the question.
        
        Subject: Re: R-units
        Message Number: 758154
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: R-units posted by Steve on September 21, 1997 at 14:10:12: What I meant was, they skipped a bunch, from R46 to R62, a lot of those in between were cancelled. I think the list was at the mta's site, I'm not sure.

Thread title: LIRR / Metro-North MUs (758094)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:39:48 1997, by Ted

Subject: LIRR / Metro-North MUs
Message Number: 758094
Posted by: Ted
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:48 1997

I have a couple of questions about the LIRR / Metro-North MUs : - Who built them ? - How long is a MU car ? thanks.
- Subject: Re: LIRR / Metro-North MUs
- Message Number: 758095
- Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:49 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]LIRR / Metro-North MUs posted by Ted on September 20, 1997 at 22:34:41: Ok..the M-1's and 3's are built by Budd, and are pieces of crap. the 2's are by GE and are old, but pretty good still (IMHO) the 3's are built by some Japanese company, and are REALLY crappy - you feel like a bingo ball in them. I also notice a low volume 60 cycle hum under acelleration in these cars... the 6's are built by MK, and ride nice. IMHO their the best stuff on either system. I think they are all ~80 foot cars.

Thread title: Jamaica Center Tracks (758101)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:39:54 1997, by subway-buff

Subject: Jamaica Center Tracks
Message Number: 758101
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:54 1997

I noticed that the tracks on both levels go further East than the station. What is beyond the station. Was this intended for a future/unfinished extension,if so to where.. I know the exisiting levels do not meet. Would there have been a connection further East.
- Subject: Re: Jamaica Center Tracks
- Message Number: 758102
- Posted by: Joshua Caesar
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:55 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Jamaica Center Tracks posted by subway-buff on September 21, 1997 at 05:56:53: The tracks go farther east than the station to provide layup space. I don't really know if an extension was ever in the works. As for a track connection between the two levels, this would probably be only used by work trains since the J-Z uses different cars than the E uses. A minimal usage of such a connection probably didn't justifiy the expense of building one. JC
  - Subject: Re: Jamaica Center Tracks
  - Message Number: 758103
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:56 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Jamaica Center Tracks posted by Joshua Caesar on September 21, 1997 at 10:01:44: Yes, the E and the J/Z use different car -types- but they are functionally and size-wise identical (both IND 60 footers). They can even run together in a train. Future assignments might put (for instance) 75' cars on the E and the next fleet of IND cars (67') on the J/Z but even still they could both run in any new IND subway construction.
    - Subject: Re: Jamaica Center Tracks
    - Message Number: 758105
    - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:39:57 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Jamaica Center Tracks posted by Joshua Caesar on September 21, 1997 at 10:01:44: The original plans for the Archer Extension included 7 stations. as only 3 were built, it is possible that further extentions and a connection would be built. It could have eventually been made a single level, or an upper and Lower level for express and local service. The difference in cars means nothing, as any of the IND-BMT cars with the exception of the R44/46/68 can be used on all BMT-IND lines. Incidently, the E now uses R32 equipment, which would have no problem with the BMT Eastern division. -Hank
      - Subject: Re: Jamaica Center Tracks
      - Message Number: 758108
      - Posted by: John
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Jamaica Center Tracks posted by David Pirmann on September 21, 1997 at 11:27:22: And remember - the R-42s that the J uses now, used to be the norm on the E.
        
        Subject: Re: Jamaica Center Tracks
        Message Number: 758111
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Jamaica Center Tracks posted by subway-buff on September 21, 1997 at 05:56:53: The upper level tracks at Jamaica Center were intended to continue south east via Merrick and Francis Lewis Blvds. to Rosedale, Queens. There were several versions of the plan, drawn but because of money and environmental problems, none ever got beyond the drawing stage. As for what is (north) of the station. The upper level tracks curve southward and continue approximately 1/2 mile to bumping blocks. Currently (6) E trains are stored on the 2 tracks during non-commission hours. The lower level tracks are significanly shorter (about 500'). A connection was originally envisioned between the two levels but was abandoned due to the additional cost. Now, with the ever present potential for Williamsburgh Bridge closure, there are people in Operations Planning and Capital Project management who are likely kicking themselves in their blue pencil rumps.
        
        Subject: Re: Jamaica Center Tracks
        Message Number: 758121
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:12 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Jamaica Center Tracks posted by David Pirmann on September 21, 1997 at 11:27:22: From what I've heard, the 75-foot cars can physically fit on the BMT Eastern Division lines (J/M/Z/L), but would have to go slowly through some of the tight turns and over the Williamsburg Bridge that using them for revenue service would be impractical.
        
        Subject: Re: Jamaica Center Tracks
        Message Number: 758262
        Posted by: CJohn
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Jamaica Center Tracks posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 21, 1997 at 11:34:00: I don't comprende. Can you PLEASE make a little more sense? Like which three stations were built in the Archer Extension?
        
        Subject: Re: Jamaica Center Tracks
        Message Number: 758264
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Jamaica Center Tracks posted by CJohn on September 28, 1997 at 20:28:19: The stations are: Jamaica/Van Wyck on the E. This station is at Jamaica Ave. It is after the 121 St El station on the J and is underground with a surface station house, fare control area. plus two bi-level Stations with E on top and J/z underneath. --Sutphin Bvld (connects to LIRR Jamaica) --Jamaica Center (Parsons/Archer) After leaving 121 St and Jamaica Ave the J/Z enters a tunnel which is the Archer Ave Extension. I don't know how deep these stations are, but all have elevators from street to platforms (all levels).
        
        Subject: Re: Jamaica Center Tracks
        Message Number: 758295
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Jamaica Center Tracks posted by subway-buff on September 28, 1997 at 21:31:05: The Jamacia-Van Wyck station actually has skylights that front the Van Wyck Expressway. -Hank

Thread title: Farthest travel using regional commuter rail (758114)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:40:06 1997, by Koi

Subject: Farthest travel using regional commuter rail
Message Number: 758114
Posted by: Koi
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:06 1997

I am curious as to how far one can travel using various regional or local commuter rail systems (ie, no Amtrack) without having to leave the train station where you transfer to another train. The longest routes I know of are 1)Metro-North from New Haven to GCT. Transfer to NYC Subway to go to Penn Station and then take NJT to Trenton to take SEPTA's R7 to CCP. Then transfer there to the R2 which will take you to Wilmington, DE. 2) LIRR from Montauk to Penn Station then the rest as above to Wilmington, DE. Can anybody add to this at the DE end or think of a longer route elsewhere in the USA?
- Subject: Re: Farthest travel using regional commuter rail
- Message Number: 758115
- Posted by: Bobw
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:07 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Farthest travel using regional commuter rail posted by Koi on September 21, 1997 at 16:40:41: SEPTA recently extended some Wilmington trips (mainly peak hour, peak direction) to Newark, DE, about 15 miles south/west of Wilmington. If you can close the 30+ mile gap between there and Perryville, MD, the furthest north/east reach of MARC, you could take commuter rail south to DC and beyond via Virginia Rail Express or MARC (which goes all the way to Martinsburg, WV). Rumor has it that MARC may be looking to extend to Wilmington somewhere along the line, but I don't think that is likely very soon.
  - Subject: Re: Farthest travel using regional commuter rail
  - Message Number: 758119
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:10 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Farthest travel using regional commuter rail posted by Koi on September 21, 1997 at 16:40:41: On the northern end of your route, it's possible to take the Shore Line East commuter train (run by Connecticut DOT) from New London, connecting to Metro-North at New Haven. LIRR from Montauk might still be longer, however. On the southern end, I believe that SEPTA runs as far as Newark, Delaware. An interesting point is that there's only about a 17-mile gap between Newark and Perryville, Maryland, which is MARC's northern terminus. But for that gap, a MARC-VRE combination with a connection at DC Union Station would allow a commuter rail/subway trip all the way from New London or Montauk to Fredricksburg, Virginia.
    - Subject: Re: Farthest travel using regional commuter rail
    - Message Number: 758120
    - Posted by: Peter Rosa
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:11 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Farthest travel using regional commuter rail posted by Peter Rosa on September 21, 1997 at 21:25:35: Another thought occurred to me. In addition to the Newark, DE/Perryville, MD gap, there's another longer but still relatively short gap (~40 miles) between New London, CT and Providence, RI. If that gap were bridged as well, by adding the MBTA to the mix it would be possible to take commuter rail from Fredrickburg, VA to Rockport, MA.
      - Subject: Re: Farthest travel using regional commuter rail
      - Message Number: 758129
      - Posted by: Mark Greenwald
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Farthest travel using regional commuter rail posted by Peter Rosa on September 21, 1997 at 21:30:41: Another slight routing change.....if the Marc were connected to Septa at Wilmington, wouldn't it take you further if you transfered Marc trains at Union Station in DC and rode the Marc all the way out to Martinsburg WV instead of using the VRE to Fredericksburg? I think Martinsburg IS further away from Union Station than Fredericksburg.

Thread title: Re: Marc Commuter Rail (was:Farthest travel using regional) commuter rail (758116)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:40:08 1997, by Mark Greenwald

Subject: Re: Marc Commuter Rail (was:Farthest travel using regional) commuter rail
Message Number: 758116
Posted by: Mark Greenwald
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:08 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Farthest travel using regional commuter rail posted by Bobw on September 21, 1997 at 18:04:06: As far as I know, the only definate expansion of the Marc system is on the Martinsburg Line. They are building a branch from the line to Frederick, Maryland adding two new stops.
- Subject: Re: Marc Commuter Rail (was:Farthest travel using regional) commuter rail
- Message Number: 758123
- Posted by: Zack
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:13 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Marc Commuter Rail (was:Farthest travel using regional) commuter rail posted by Mark Greenwald on September 21, 1997 at 18:40:36: I know trains did a article on that in 1995??
  - Subject: Re: Marc Commuter Rail (was:Farthest travel using regional) commuter rail
  - Message Number: 758176
  - Posted by: Joe Barnes
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:57 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Marc Commuter Rail (was:Farthest travel using regional) commuter rail posted by Mark Greenwald on September 21, 1997 at 18:40:36: Yes, Martinsburg WV is farther from Union Station in Washington then Fredericksburg. I live in Martinsburg.

Thread title: LIRR Montauk Station Closings(?) (758127)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:40:16 1997, by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto

Subject: LIRR Montauk Station Closings(?)
Message Number: 758127
Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:16 1997

I have not seen anything recently on the proposed LIRR station closings in Queens (Penny Bridge, et al). Anyone know hard info, whether public hearings were conducted, public debate recently, etc.?
- Subject: Re: LIRR Montauk Station Closings(?)
- Message Number: 758142
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:28 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]LIRR Montauk Station Closings(?) posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on September 22, 1997 at 05:52:33: I haven't heard anything specifically about hearings or debate on the Queens station closings. It's worth noting, however, that at two of the Suffolk County stations that were scheduled for closing but later repreived (Medford and Bellport), construction of high-level platforms to accomodate the new bilevel trains is well under way. The lack of any similar work at the Queens stations, if that is indeed the case, might therefore be an indication that they're still scheduled to go.

Thread title: CTA Visitor Pass Pain (758128)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:40:17 1997, by aaron

Subject: CTA Visitor Pass Pain
Message Number: 758128
Posted by: aaron
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:17 1997

I called CTA last Friday (9/19) and asked where I could get Visitor Pass. They said any WH Smith concession stand at O'hare. Got to O'hare Saturday morning. Went to four WH Smith stands. No passes. Went to Airport Hilton. No passes. Went to Blue Line terminal. No passes. Took Marriott shuttle bus to Marriott Suites O'hare were it turns out I was spending the night. SUCCESS. THEY HAD IT!!! Stopped by Airport Marriott later that day. No passes. I think I got the only one around. PAIN.
- Subject: Re: CTA Visitor Pass Pain
- Message Number: 758130
- Posted by: Dan Lawrence
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:19 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]CTA Visitor Pass Pain posted by aaron on September 22, 1997 at 08:56:27: Glad to see that perseverence pays off. You should let CTA know the lack of places that they recommended that had the passes. If anyone else has or had the same problem, they should let the CTA know, too. Sometimes the only thing that transit authorities respond too is LOTS of complaints about the same thing.
  - Subject: Re: CTA Visitor Pass Pain
  - Message Number: 758134
  - Posted by: aaron
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:22 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: CTA Visitor Pass Pain posted by Dan Lawrence on September 22, 1997 at 12:20:50: I just sent a message to them at their website.
    - Subject: Re: CTA Visitor Pass Pain
    - Message Number: 758164
    - Posted by: BJ
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:47 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: CTA Visitor Pass Pain posted by aaron on September 22, 1997 at 14:54:41: You proabaly will never get a responce from the CTA. i sent them a letter a month ago and I only live in the Chicago suburbs in the downers grove area. I still haven't gotten a responce. They sometimes will respond to E-mail and sometimes wont. It usually takes 2 to 3 weeks for them to respond if they are going to. I have gotten a responce to about half of the e-mails i have sent them! GOOD LUCK
      - Subject: Re: CTA Visitor Pass Pain
      - Message Number: 758173
      - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: CTA Visitor Pass Pain posted by BJ on September 23, 1997 at 17:28:39: I'd have to second this. I sent CTA e-mail before my trip to Chicago last June. I sent the e-mail in early May regarding their photography policy. I never heard from them. You're better off calling their customer service number. I think it's (888) YOUR-CTA. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: CTA Visitor Pass Pain
        Message Number: 758177
        Posted by: Bingo
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: CTA Visitor Pass Pain posted by Mark S Feinman on September 24, 1997 at 12:25:54: What do you expect? They're the CTA!!! This is such typical behaviour for them.
        
        Subject: Re: CTA Visitor Pass Pain
        Message Number: 758210
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: CTA Visitor Pass Pain posted by Bingo on September 24, 1997 at 15:29:52: My experience with CTA was not all bad. Even though they didn't respond to my e-mail, a visit to their HQ at Merchandise Mart put me in touch with someone (too bad I never wrote down his name) who told me everything I needed to know about their photography policy. What a nice guy he was. We spent 2 hours just talking about NYC Transit and CTA and comparing systems. He even gave me 1994, 1995 and 1997 calendars to take back with me, as well as statistical info about all the cars in the CTA fleet. The calendars usually incur a charge of which I was willing to pay; he gave them to me free of charge. Many others in the office were also very accommodating to me. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: CTA Visitor Pass Pain
        Message Number: 758216
        Posted by: BJ
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: CTA Visitor Pass Pain posted by Mark S Feinman on September 25, 1997 at 13:03:19: What calenders did he give you?
        
        Subject: Re: CTA Visitor Pass Pain
        Message Number: 758266
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: CTA Visitor Pass Pain posted by BJ on September 25, 1997 at 17:26:45: Just for fun I tried to buy a visitors pass this week The woman at WH smith looked at me like I was nuts and the concierge at the Hilton said he was temporarily out but would have some soon.

Thread title: Metro-North Cars: Replacement Anytime Soon? (758132)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:40:20 1997, by Nick

Subject: Metro-North Cars: Replacement Anytime Soon?
Message Number: 758132
Posted by: Nick
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:20 1997

I metro North planning to replace any or all of its fleet soon-particularly on the New Haven Line?

Thread title: HO Scale NYC Subway cars (758133)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:40:21 1997, by Ted Siuta

Subject: HO Scale NYC Subway cars
Message Number: 758133
Posted by: Ted Siuta
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:21 1997

Help! I've seen them before (once), but there are HO scale NYC subway cars out there. Does anybody know where I can find them? I saw them at a show once, and, unfortunately were quite expensive being made of brass. They are fully functional working HO cars. If anybody knows who the manufacturer is, or where they may be purchased, I would appreciate a quick Email! Thanks, Ted
- Subject: Re: HO Scale NYC Subway cars
- Message Number: 758135
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:23 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]HO Scale NYC Subway cars posted by Ted Siuta on September 22, 1997 at 14:34:52: What you saw was probably the products of the Q Car Co, I'm not sure if they are still around. More recently the Red Caboose on W45st.,NYC advertised plastic IRT cars in Model Railroader. Still expensive though!
  - Subject: Re: HO Scale NYC Subway cars
  - Message Number: 758136
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:23 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]HO Scale NYC Subway cars posted by Ted Siuta on September 22, 1997 at 14:34:52: See [7]this page for a list of model vendors. --dave
    - Subject: Re: HO Scale NYC Subway cars
    - Message Number: 758150
    - Posted by: Frank Gatazka
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:35 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]HO Scale NYC Subway cars posted by Ted Siuta on September 22, 1997 at 14:34:52: There have been numerous HO models of NYC subway/elevated cars over the years in brass, limited run epoxy, cast urethane, and now injection molded styrene. Brass models of BMT Standards (Silver Leaf, WP Car Co.), IND R-4's(Custom Brass), IND R-3 Work Train (Custom Brass),BRT Freight Motor and Crane (MTS), IRT Low V's (WP Car Co.), BMT D Types (MTS), BMT Q Cars (MTS), IRT Deck Roof Hi V's (MTS), Manhatten and Brooklyn El Cars (MTS, WP Car Co.), R-10's (WP Car Co.), R-15, 17, 21/22, 29 (with errors), 33, and 36's (MTS)have been produced. These were all very limited run models, and are long since out of production. Try The Caboose in Wolcott, CT (203)879-9797. They may have some of these in stock. Their prices are quite reasonable for brass. In addition, Q-Car made epoxy bodies for the BMT Standards as well as the IND R-1/9's. According to Quentin Carnecelli, these are no longer in production. MTS provided a brass underfloor and drive for these as well (also out of production). MTS also provided a cast urethane body Low V, based on the WP Car Co. brass model with a brass floor and drive. These are no longer available either. Now the good news! Images Replicas and NJ International are offering injection molded styrene models of the R-17, 21/22, 26/28/29/mainline 33/36 subway carrs. These are unpowered in kit form. Please see the list of manufacturers on this web site for details.

Thread title: Railcar Lighting (758137)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:40:24 1997, by Steve

Subject: Railcar Lighting
Message Number: 758137
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:24 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Bi-Level fleet troubles posted by John on September 21, 1997 at 21:50:28: On the R-33/R-36 cars, interior carbody lights will go off over 3rd rail gaps while the lights in other cars do not. The reason for this is the type of lighting which is incorporated in the car design. On the R-33/R36 fleet, the interior carbody lights are fed directly from the 600 volt 3rd rail. Therefore, when the car goes over a 3rd rail gap, the lights go out. At the same time, the 3rd rail voltage is fed across an Emergency Light relay. When the 600 volts is lost, the relay drops out, making up a battery circuit which feeds the emergency lights. When the 3rd rail voltage is picked up again, the relay makes up and shuts the emergency lights. On most other cars in the NYCT fleet, the lights are fed from 37.5 volts from the batteries. The B+ is fed into an inverter ballast which proovides about 400 volts at 1500 Hz to light the fluorescent lamps. (2 lamps per ballast) Therefore, the lights stay on when the car goes over 3rd rail gaps as long as the battery circuit is operable. On the LIRR and most other MU rail cars, the fluorescent lights and other auxilliary equipment are fed by 480 VAC from the motor alternator. The MA runs from 3rd rail voltage, When the car crosses 3rd rail gaps, the MA drops out and the lights will go out too.
- Subject: Re: Railcar Lighting
- Message Number: 758146
- Posted by: Jeff
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:32 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Railcar Lighting posted by Steve on September 22, 1997 at 17:22:45: I like it when the lights go out on those old R33-36 #6and 7 trains. It reminds me of the eighties and it adds flavor to the ride!

Thread title: most of commuter rail system you could ride............. (758138)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:40:25 1997, by Joshua Trower

Subject: most of commuter rail system you could ride.............
Message Number: 758138
Posted by: Joshua Trower
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:25 1997

Does anybody have and idea of how you could ride an entire commuter rail system[say septa, nj transit or the mbta] in a single day period?
- Subject: Re: most of commuter rail system you could ride.............
- Message Number: 758140
- Posted by: Bobw
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:27 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]most of commuter rail system you could ride............. posted by Joshua Trower on September 22, 1997 at 18:10:23: Here in Phila, it could be done physically (if that's your question - I assume you mean this and not how you'd do it fare-wise), probably best on a weekday when all lines are in operation and headways are smallest. You could do a couple of "out and backs" on close lines like Chestnut Hill East and West (the outer terminals are within a couple of blocks of each other), and possibly Trenton and West Trenton (you'd need to taxi between these stops). Trips to places like Downingtown, Wilmington/Newark, and Doylestown could be done but might be difficult given the peak-hour nature of the operation (first two) and the length of trip (third). Much of your travel will be both ways on the same line, however, with the noted exceptions. It is possible to use SEPTA buses to go from Media to Chester, for example, to cover portions of two lines, but again, careful planning is a must. You might do better getting partial rides on many lines and using other modes to complete the trip. One example, from Center City, is Media by R3, walk a few blocks to 101 (light rail) to 69th St, switch to 100 (ex-P & W) to either Radnor (and walk a few blocks to Radnor R5) or Norristown (shared stop with R6) back to Center City. This would give a good cross-section of three different modes. There are a couple of other possibilities like this, some involving bus routes, but it could be done. It would undoubtedly be a long day!
  - Subject: Re: most of commuter rail system you could ride.............
  - Message Number: 758161
  - Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:44 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]most of commuter rail system you could ride............. posted by Joshua Trower on September 22, 1997 at 18:10:23: Actually, back in 1986 I undertook to ride all of SEPTA's commuter rail system. It took me most of (3) weekdays, but I covered every inch of the system as it then existed. (At that time the R3 still ran to West Chester, & the R6 to Ivy Ridge on the ex-PRR side, but the R2 did not go to Wilmington nor did the R5 then go past Downingtown.) If you want to cover the ENTIRE system, I would suggest that you get a complete set of ALL SEPTA timetables, as well as a good street atlas of the Philadelphia region. There are numerous connections between SEPTA's commuter rail lines, buses, & trolleys at or near many of the suburban stations as well as ALL of the outer terminals except West Trenton, NJ. The timetables show most of these connecting routes. A SEPTA TrailPass will be all the fare you would need. (I would suggest Zone 3 as it is good for off-peak trips to all points on the system, even those in farther zones like Trenton & Wilmington.) On the other hand, if you just want to sample a few lines, "Bobw"'s posting in this thread would seem to be a good jumping-off point. If you would be interested in taking a trip on SEPTA, e-mail me with your address & I'll get you a complete set of SEPTA timetables. Regards, Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA buglak@email.chop.edu
    - Subject: Re: most of commuter rail system you could ride.............
    - Message Number: 758162
    - Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:45 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]most of commuter rail system you could ride............. posted by Joshua Trower on September 22, 1997 at 18:10:23: Actually, back in 1986 I undertook to ride all of SEPTA's commuter rail system. It took me most of (3) weekdays, but I covered every inch of the system as it then existed. (At that time the R3 still ran to West Chester, & the R6 to Ivy Ridge on the ex-PRR side, but the R2 did not go to Wilmington nor did the R5 then go past Downingtown.) If you want to cover the ENTIRE system, I would suggest that you get a complete set of ALL SEPTA timetables, as well as a good street atlas of the Philadelphia region. There are numerous connections between SEPTA's commuter rail lines, buses, & trolleys at or near many of the suburban stations as well as ALL of the outer terminals except West Trenton, NJ. The timetables show most of these connecting routes. A SEPTA TrailPass will be all the fare you would need. (I would suggest Zone 3 as it is good for off-peak trips to all points on the system, even those in farther zones like Trenton & Wilmington.) On the other hand, if you just want to sample a few lines, "Bobw"'s posting in this thread would seem to be a good jumping-off point. If you would be interested in taking a trip on SEPTA, e-mail me with your address & I'll get you a complete set of SEPTA timetables. Regards, Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA buglak@email.chop.edu
      - Subject: Re: most of commuter rail system you could ride.............
      - Message Number: 758188
      - Posted by: Bobw
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:07 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: most of commuter rail system you could ride............. posted by Michael S. Buglak on September 23, 1997 at 17:05:38: All SEPTA schedules are now on-line at SEPTA.com, fyi.

Thread title: I know it's not worth it but... (758139)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:40:26 1997, by Dwayne j Davis

Subject: I know it's not worth it but...
Message Number: 758139
Posted by: Dwayne j Davis
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:26 1997

I know it's not worth it, but how much would it cost to completely replace the nyc transit system? How much to just overhaul the system to make it more uniform. I know this will incense some people because to them nothing needs changing, but iI was born and raised in nyc and in my opinion there needs to be a whole lot done. I would like to see your responses.
- Subject: Re: I know it's not worth it but...
- Message Number: 758141
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:27 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]I know it's not worth it but... posted by Dwayne j Davis on September 22, 1997 at 20:06:24: At tens of millions of dollars per route mile for construction, environmental impact studies, obtaining right-of-ways and political squabbling over routes and station locations, I doubt that the NYC subway system could be built here at any price. If you doubt it look how long it took to build the 63rd St. tunnel and how much longer it's taken to connect it at both ends.
  - Subject: Re: I know it's not worth it but...
  - Message Number: 758143
  - Posted by: Bryan Layne
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:29 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]I know it's not worth it but... posted by Dwayne j Davis on September 22, 1997 at 20:06:24: Ya..once we get that national debt payed off just give the savings to NYC...it'll cost around a couple trillion...not a problem
    - Subject: Re: I know it's not worth it but...
    - Message Number: 758149
    - Posted by: sammy
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:34 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]I know it's not worth it but... posted by Dwayne j Davis on September 22, 1997 at 20:06:24: The sad truth is the system can't be replaced at any price? Just look at the fandango that the 63rd street line is. And right now, because of construction, the MTA has sought to screw the people of eastern Qeens and North Brooklyn with obnoxious and crazy service schedules that make no sense whatsoever. What we need is clear leadership and good, dedicated workers. In order to do that, I suggest the following: 1) Eliminate any and all transit unions. Want to know why the cost of construction is so high? why service schedules are horrible and work against people? Why the fare is so expensive? One word. Unions. Do you know of any other institution that fights against productivity gains and has such incredibly generous benefits? Know of any place where jobs are more or less "guaranteed"? welcome to the MTA unions. 2) Each and every member of the MTA's construction and planning branch should be marched out at dawn and shot. OK, fire them. More incompetant you couldn't get. There is no clear thinking as to how construction and service interuptions impact everyone. 3) following two, why put money into the 63rd street line when the second avenue line is clearly the more needed? Im saying this and I live in Queens!!!! The 63rd street line will do nothing for northern Queens. 4) All commuters can fight back don't buy MetroCards. Don't support the unions whatsoever. Fight back as much as you can. If trains are late, give the conductor a piece of your mind. The only way we can get mass transit to benefit the people is to fight, and fight now.
      - Subject: Re: I know it's not worth it but...
      - Message Number: 758184
      - Posted by: Daniel A. Valles
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: I know it's not worth it but... posted by sammy on September 23, 1997 at 04:26:15: AMEN!!!!

Thread title: OPTO expansion (758151)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:40:36 1997, by Peter Rosa

Subject: OPTO expansion
Message Number: 758151
Posted by: Peter Rosa
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:36 1997

According to news reports, the TA is expanding nighttime One Person Train Operation (OPTO) to the C and G lines. The 6 train may be next, later in 1998. OPTO has been used on several late-night shuttle lines for some time now and apparently has worked well.
- Subject: Re: OPTO expansion
- Message Number: 758172
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:54 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]OPTO expansion posted by Peter Rosa on September 23, 1997 at 10:29:16: It would appear, then, that the C line, currently serviced (mostly) with R-32s, will get full cab equipment (R-44/46/68 at night at least) to support this. Does anyone know how the plan to convert R40/R42s to full width cabs is progressing? --Mark
  - Subject: Re: OPTO expansion
  - Message Number: 758179
  - Posted by: John
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:59 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: OPTO expansion posted by Mark S Feinman on September 24, 1997 at 12:14:15: The C doesn't run at night, so how could this be so? Maybe the weekend (daytime) C trains will be affected, or the nighttime A trains, which run local to conpensate for the C.
    - Subject: Re: OPTO expansion
    - Message Number: 758194
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:11 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: OPTO expansion posted by Mark S Feinman on September 24, 1997 at 12:14:15: The C train will use 4-car R-44s. The 'plan' to put transverse cabs on R-40 & R-42 equipment was never really considered feasible. It was just looked at. In 1999, the B division fleets will be somewhat re-aligned, partially to accommodate OPTO.
      - Subject: Re: OPTO expansion
      - Message Number: 758201
      - Posted by: George
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: OPTO expansion posted by Mark S Feinman on September 24, 1997 at 12:14:15: I still feel OPTO is dangerous and will ultimately wil push the MTA to cut many jobs. Still I don't feel sorry for the Transit Union or it's workers. They never complained about full cabs. As a subway rider therefore a customer I've never appreciated full cabs. Although it may give greater comfort for the train operator and the conductor it is a great inconvience to the customers. First of all it takes up too much space especially on the 51 foot IRT trains.(which genius thought that one up?!). Also one took more comfort knowing that a train had two conductor cars instead of one on the full cab version. Also since most full cab trains have the glass door covered to the cabs (why so we can't see the operator or conductor smoking, go ahead light up it doesn't bother me), one feels that in case of trouble no-one is there to report the incident. Perhaps the Transit Union should wake up and realize this and force the MTA to give up on full cabs where feasible especially with a new fleet on order. This may lead to more capacity on cars and make riders more secure and insure that a mass lay-off program won't be in effect. I could care less if the MTA feels that this works in other cities. NYC is "not" just another city.

Thread title: Re: YELLOW SIGNS, ORANGE SIGNS (758152)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:40:36 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Re: YELLOW SIGNS, ORANGE SIGNS
Message Number: 758152
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:36 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: red signs, green signs posted by Stan on September 17, 1997 at 13:14:57: Is there antyhing in the TA SOPs that says that the Q to Queensbridge should have a yellow circle vs an orange one? You even see the yellow diamond still. It appears that train operators may not be as diligent on these things. All rollers on the R-62s/68s have both yellow and orange Qs (and Bs, too). I have never been a big believer that riders really care about the color or shape, as long as the letter (or number) is correct.
- Subject: Re: YELLOW SIGNS, ORANGE SIGNS
- Message Number: 758167
- Posted by: John
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:49 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: YELLOW SIGNS, ORANGE SIGNS posted by Charles Fiori on September 23, 1997 at 12:50:41: The Q used to be a Broadway line, and thus it was yellow. However, over a period of ten years, you think the signs on the trains would also change. I guess the TA figures that this change from Broadway to 6th Avenue is only temporary, and technically, the Q is still the Broadway Express, with a black Q in a yellow diamond.
  - Subject: Re: YELLOW SIGNS, ORANGE SIGNS
  - Message Number: 758186
  - Posted by: subway-buff
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:05 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: YELLOW SIGNS, ORANGE SIGNS posted by John on September 23, 1997 at 19:49:38: I have started seeing Orange Q signs-mainly on R-68/68A trains. This orange Q is a round subway bullet rather than a diamond bullet. A" Subway Bullet" is the number or letter surrounded by the colored circle or diamond. I toured the NYCTA Bergen Street Sign Shop and was given a set of subway bullets and other goodies such as an official surplus sign which could be attached to a steel I-beam. These signs FYI, are on black metal with vinyl letters cut out by computer. After they are completed they are laminated to produce the faux porcelain look. If you have seen the red "do not enter track" signs- they are silk screened due to volume of production.
    - Subject: Re: YELLOW SIGNS, ORANGE SIGNS
    - Message Number: 758202
    - Posted by: Charles Fiori
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:19 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: YELLOW SIGNS, ORANGE SIGNS posted by subway-buff on September 24, 1997 at 20:19:45: Ah, Bergen Street. One of my fave places to visit. Lots of souvenirs from there. Care to trade???
      - Subject: Re: YELLOW SIGNS, ORANGE SIGNS
      - Message Number: 758226
      - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: YELLOW SIGNS, ORANGE SIGNS posted by Charles Fiori on September 23, 1997 at 12:50:41: This is not limited to the Q line. I know that the R-68A's have a "D" in the yellow circle for the period when the Manhattan Bridge's north tracks were closed and there were two separate B & D trains operating.
        
        Subject: Re: YELLOW SIGNS, ORANGE SIGNS
        Message Number: 758227
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: YELLOW SIGNS, ORANGE SIGNS posted by Charles Fiori on September 23, 1997 at 12:50:41: This is not limited to the Q line. I know that the R-68A's have a "D" in the yellow circle for the period when the Manhattan Bridge's north tracks were closed and there were two separate B & D trains operating.
        
        Subject: Re: YELLOW SIGNS, ORANGE SIGNS
        Message Number: 758299
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: YELLOW SIGNS, ORANGE SIGNS posted by Wayne Johnson on September 26, 1997 at 14:50:41: If I can get the time, I will provide a list of the readings on the sign. There are some interesting ones, to be sure. Let me know if you are interested in anything else along these lines. (no pun intended)
        
        Subject: Re: YELLOW SIGNS, ORANGE SIGNS
        Message Number: 758435
        Posted by: John da stranger
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: YELLOW SIGNS, ORANGE SIGNS posted by Charles Fiori on September 30, 1997 at 09:15:27: When I visited NYC last year, I had that same thing too. A Av. o' Americas Express, with the colour of an N! An it was in a DIAMOND! Disgraceful! Q's run on Middays and Rushes, Right?? A DIAMOND!!!! IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!! (will the idiot who made tose signs please come here so I CAN BLAST YOU TO SMITHEREENS!!!!!!
        
        Subject: Re: YELLOW SIGNS, ORANGE SIGNS
        Message Number: 758436
        Posted by: John da stranger
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:22 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: YELLOW SIGNS, ORANGE SIGNS posted by Charles Fiori on September 25, 1997 at 09:38:59: Are you talking about Boro Hall???
        
        Subject: Re: YELLOW SIGNS, ORANGE SIGNS
        Message Number: 758492
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: YELLOW SIGNS, ORANGE SIGNS posted by John da stranger on October 04, 1997 at 23:22:03: No, Bergen Street. The craftsmen out there really produce some nice stuff. It is housed in an old trolleybus barn, in not too nice an area, south of the Atlantic Ave. LIRR elevated structure. Between Albany & Troy Avs., I think.

Thread title: rumors (758153)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:40:37 1997, by Moulton

Subject: rumors
Message Number: 758153
Posted by: Moulton
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:37 1997

hi, i'm new in the city, and as i've been wondering around the subway stations, i noticed some cool paintings on the walls. i asked around for names and a friend told me that one of them may be by a guy named Chris Pei (sp?). Has anybody heard of him? Does he do a lot of paintings in the stations? Let me know if you know anything. Thanks.

Thread title: Another tack (was Re; regarding longest ........) (758163)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:40:46 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: Another tack (was Re; regarding longest ........)
Message Number: 758163
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:46 1997

In Reply to: [5]Farthest travel using regional commuter rail posted by Koi on September 21, 1997 at 16:40:41: In a related subject; how about the longest daily commute that some people actually do every day??? Some contenders are the people who have moved to Pike Co, PA. Some of these people drive 30-60 minutes to the Port Jervis end of the Metro-North/NJT Port Jervis Line--THEN ride over 2 hours to Hoboken, then the PATH, and maybe a subway ride!! They literally are only home from about 8 or 9 at night, and get up like 4 or 5 the next AM!!! Lets here about anything longer.....
- Subject: Re: Another tack (was Re; regarding longest ........)
- Message Number: 758166
- Posted by: ~airplane
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:49 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Another tack (was Re; regarding longest ........) posted by Lou from Middletown on September 23, 1997 at 17:09:56: At least some of those trains are going express. The Port Jervis Line could still use a lot more weekend trains. Does anyone know the details of the new service contract for MNR west-of-hudson lines? The paper gave it a full two sentences.

Thread title: Re: Longest daily commutes (758165)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:40:48 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Re: Longest daily commutes
Message Number: 758165
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:48 1997

In Reply to: [5]Another tack (was Re; regarding longest ........) posted by Lou from Middletown on September 23, 1997 at 17:09:56: I remember seeing an article in the NY Times some years back about long commutes. Unfortunately for this forum, the trips were by car or poss. by bus as well. Some of the motor carriers were Bieber (from Allentown, I thik) and Peter Pan (from. Mass) I used to know people who commuted from the Philadelphia area and heard of others who started their trips out on the Main Line. There used to be an Amtrak round trip in the early 80s called the Valley Forge (using NJT MUs). It ran from NYP out to Harrisburg, leaving NYP at 5:06p, stopping at Newark, Trenton, 30th St., and then who knows. I believe there were commuters on that ride because I remember hearing about a club of people which was formed of regular riders of the Valley Forge to NYC in the morning and from NYC in the PM.

Thread title: long trains on LIRR (758168)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:40:50 1997, by aaron

Subject: long trains on LIRR
Message Number: 758168
Posted by: aaron
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:50 1997

Why does the LIRR persist on running 10 car trains with 4-6 coaches open during off-peak hours. Why don't they just store them in yards? Doesn't this cause extra wear and tear.
- Subject: Re: long trains on LIRR
- Message Number: 758170
- Posted by: Dave
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:52 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]long trains on LIRR posted by aaron on September 24, 1997 at 10:40:04: Maybe it's cheaper to deadhead the cars then to pay a crew to cut them in and out of various trains. Less motive power needed, too, since you don't need a switcher if you're not cutting in and out cars. Plus, you don't have a build-up of stored cars that would need to be deadheaded to a terminus when they were needed.
  - Subject: Re: long trains on LIRR
  - Message Number: 758178
  - Posted by: John
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:58 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: long trains on LIRR posted by Dave on September 24, 1997 at 10:48:12: The LIRR is not the only one who does it. NJ Transit also does that on the weekends. In fact, it's not unusual to see a train of 5+ cars with only the last car open, especially on the Bergen/Main, during weekend evenings.
    - Subject: Re: long trains on LIRR
    - Message Number: 758191
    - Posted by: Bobw
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:09 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: long trains on LIRR posted by John on September 24, 1997 at 16:16:51: NJT also does this routinely on the Atlantic City line. Trains are often three cars in length, with generally only one or two open for passengers. This past summer, trains were cut to two cars, both of which were available for passengers. Now, three-car trains are back. I rode a train a few years ago, back from AC, on which only the center car of the three-car set was open to riders. Didn't make much sense to me... (the loco is usually in front on Phila-bound sets, so there was no one in the cab car). The New York subways also did this routinely at night for many years, as I have been told, and only half the train was opened for riders. The theory was apparently that the full-length could be made available if a sudden surge of passengers materialized. Also didn't make much sense to me...
      - Subject: Re: long trains on LIRR
      - Message Number: 758192
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:10 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: long trains on LIRR posted by Dave on September 24, 1997 at 10:48:12: Sorry but when you cut MUs you don't use switchers. They move on they're own.
        
        Subject: Re: long trains on LIRR
        Message Number: 758193
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]long trains on LIRR posted by aaron on September 24, 1997 at 10:40:04: There are several reasons for not cutting trains during non-commission hours. The first is the cost of switchman. The second is that when cars are cut and re-added, problems emerge in the electric coupler (electric portion). This can lead to in-service failures. Finally, has to do with car mileage. By running constant lenght trains, cars accummulate mileage uniformly. This is important, especially on a RR where the inspections are time-based.
        
        Subject: Re: long trains on LIRR
        Message Number: 758223
        Posted by: Lou From Brooklyn
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: long trains on LIRR posted by John on September 24, 1997 at 16:16:51: MTA Staten Island Railway (SIRT) using modified R44's standard set is 4 cars. Then on weekends they went to 2 cars with only one open. But they found out that just 2 cars couldn't make some of the hills on the line. Thry are back to a full 4 car set with only one car open. Some times it is SRO in the one car and no matter the pleading to the conductor, they will not open a second car. Guess a 2 man crew can't handle the transportation lift. The train operator won't open the doors, we have sat in the station waiting for the conductor to crawl over people from one end of the car to the other just to open doors. Maybe smaller train lengths on LIRR can't handle some of the terrain?
        
        Subject: Re: long trains on LIRR
        Message Number: 758224
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: long trains on LIRR posted by Lou From Brooklyn on September 26, 1997 at 12:15:24: Short consists also may not be able to generate sufficient braking power. There was a discussion to this effect several months ago on nyc.transit, dealing with the Franklin Avenue shuttle. Apparently, the longer the consist, the more the braking power that can be generated - enough to outweigh the greater braking power required by the heavier trains.
        
        Subject: Re: long trains on LIRR
        Message Number: 758225
        Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: long trains on LIRR posted by Peter Rosa on September 26, 1997 at 12:25:47: Both theories on motive and braking power are flawed. To begin with, the equipment on each car is essentially identical, which means that the performance of a train of any length should be identical. Now, if there is a breakdown, other factors come into play. If a car is without power, the other cars in the train must pick up the slack. In a two car train, with one dead car you have lost 50% of your accelleration and dynamic braking power (in braking the friction brakes make up the difference, but with increased noise and wear). One car out of four is 25% and so on down to the 11 car Flushing train where only 9% is lost. Thus a long train will perform better with a dead car. When a car is without air brakes, the performance should differ on the final stop only, if the motors remain in. Again the short train will suffer the most. In any case, a train with a dead car should come out of service ASAP, especially a two car unit where motors or starting/dynamic brake resistance will suffer greatly from the overload. As usual, Steve, with his experience closer to home may be able to add or correct... Gerry
        
        Subject: Re: long trains on LIRR
        Message Number: 758228
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: long trains on LIRR posted by Lou From Brooklyn on September 26, 1997 at 12:15:24: With the elimination of the fare on the train, except at St. George, SIR has gone to 2-man train crews on all trains, and all cars are open all the time, although late nites only the last car is open. -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: long trains on LIRR
        Message Number: 758229
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: long trains on LIRR posted by Gerry O'Regan on September 26, 1997 at 13:16:58: Actually, most of the LIRR MU's and most NYC subway cars are married pairs. Thus, a failure of a system on one car causes a second car to be removed from service. If the air compressor fails on a car in a married pair in a 10 car train, the effective air braking power of that train is reduced by 20%, not 10%, Flushing would be 18%, unless it happens to be the lone R33. Also, with married pairs, both cars are removed from service, reducing your available capacity (although there are usually enough cars to cover the service) -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: long trains on LIRR
        Message Number: 758230
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: long trains on LIRR posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 26, 1997 at 15:40:10: Another reason why the LIRR runs seemingly too-long consists might be third rail gaps. I recall hearing some time ago that Metro-North has some gaps exceeding two carlengths. Presumably the LIRR also might have some that long. If so, a two-car MU train that stops in the "wrong" spot could find itself without any shoes contacting the third rail.
        
        Subject: Re: long trains on LIRR
        Message Number: 758234
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: long trains on LIRR posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 26, 1997 at 15:40:10: If a compressor fails on a 10 car train of married pair units the volume of air produced is reduced by 20%. However, since brakepipe air is trainline, the effective braking remains the same..

Thread title: Re: More on Aqueduct (was LIRR -- In the past...) (758171)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:40:53 1997, by Dave

Subject: Re: More on Aqueduct (was LIRR -- In the past...)
Message Number: 758171
Posted by: Dave
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:53 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR -- In the past... posted by Dave on September 24, 1997 at 10:45:30: Yes it does pre-date the A train. The last year of LIRR service to Aqueduct Race was 1955. The station was originally constructed in 1888. Service after 1955 was through a connecting bus at Woodhaven; this was discontinued in 1960.
- Subject: Re: More on Aqueduct (was LIRR -- In the past...)
- Message Number: 758200
- Posted by: aaron
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:17 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: More on Aqueduct (was LIRR -- In the past...) posted by Dave on September 24, 1997 at 10:57:24: Wrong. This platform was used up until about ten years ago when the TA ran express trains to the racetrack from the lower level of 42nd/8th Ave. It should qualify as an abandoned station on Joe Brennan's list, but since it is not on an elevated structure or in a subway he says it falls through the cracks. Take it from a BDH (Broken Down Horseplayer).
  - Subject: Re: More on Aqueduct (was LIRR -- In the past...)
  - Message Number: 758206
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:22 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: More on Aqueduct (was LIRR -- In the past...) posted by aaron on September 25, 1997 at 09:05:17: I don't think Dave is wrong on this one; he is talking about service on the LIRR before the TA took over in 1956. Aqueduct has been there since the 1880's, as has the Rockaway branch. It seems entirely likely that LIRR provided service, as they did to Belmont Park.

Thread title: Brooklyn Els Tour Sold Out (was Re: N.Y.C.Visit) (758174)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:40:55 1997, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Brooklyn Els Tour Sold Out (was Re: N.Y.C.Visit)
Message Number: 758174
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:55 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: N.Y.C.Visit posted by Adam on September 22, 1997 at 22:36:26: This tour sold out long ago. (sigh!) --Mark
- Subject: Re: Brooklyn Els Tour Sold Out (was Re: N.Y.C.Visit)
- Message Number: 758181
- Posted by: subway-buff
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:01 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Brooklyn Els Tour Sold Out (was Re: N.Y.C.Visit) posted by Mark S Feinman on September 24, 1997 at 12:29:46: Suggestion; They will meet at the J/M./Z entrance at Essex Street Station at 11am on 9/27/97. If you show up and someone is a no show maybe you could go. I do not work for the museum so this is not a promise but a chance to go,
  - Subject: Re: Brooklyn Els Tour Sold Out (was Re: N.Y.C.Visit)
  - Message Number: 758211
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:26 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Brooklyn Els Tour Sold Out (was Re: N.Y.C.Visit) posted by subway-buff on September 24, 1997 at 17:40:26: Funny you mentioned this because I was planning to just show up. At every Transit Museum tour I have attended, there is always a no-show. However, I just got off the phone with Clarence (acting educational director at the museum) - seems there was a cancellation and I got called because I was on the waiting list. So I will get a chance to attend after all!! --Mark

Thread title: Governors Island (758175)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:40:56 1997, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Governors Island
Message Number: 758175
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:40:56 1997

My wife, while visiting her dentist, told him about my love of trains and all the Transit Museum tours that I've gone on. Her dentist then proceeded to tell her that he once accompanied a construction friend of his to an excavation being done on Governors Island. (I don't know when this visit took place). He supposedly was told by his construction friend that old subway cars were used as additional fill to increase the size of Governors Island many years ago, and then was supposedly able to see remnants of these old subway cars in the excavation. Is this possible or has this dentist inhaled too much laughing gas? I do know that some of the old PRR cars that predated PATH were used to form an artificial reef somewhere off the coast of NJ (and I did see pictures of this reef at a tour of the Harrison Shops a few years ago). --Mark
- Subject: Re: Governors Island
- Message Number: 758180
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:00 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Governors Island posted by Mark S Feinman on September 24, 1997 at 12:42:16: Governos Island is one of the way cool places in NYC. I had the opportunity to attend a couple of company picnics over there in the mid 80s. The only 'fill' of which I had heard was the excavation from some of the lower East River tunnels was used to build out the island to allow for situation of the white airshaft for the Battery Tunnel, plainly visible from lower Manhattan.
  - Subject: Re: Governors Island
  - Message Number: 758204
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:21 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Governors Island posted by Mark S Feinman on September 24, 1997 at 12:42:16: Old subway cars would seem to be an highly unlikely candidate for landfill. Unless the cars were filled with dirt beforehand, which obviously would involve a lot of effort, there would be a risk that they would collapse under the weight of all the fill above them, thereby causing the ground to sink.
    - Subject: Re: Governors Island
    - Message Number: 758242
    - Posted by: Zack
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:52 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Governors Island posted by Peter Rosa on September 25, 1997 at 11:24:32: Not it they were cut apart and placed there?

Thread title: Re: Electrification {was: LIRR Montauk Station Closings(?)} (758182)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:41:01 1997, by Daniel A. Valles

Subject: Re: Electrification {was: LIRR Montauk Station Closings(?)}
Message Number: 758182
Posted by: Daniel A. Valles
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:01 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR Montauk Station Closings(?) posted by Peter Rosa on September 22, 1997 at 21:39:24: Are they going to electrify ALL tracks on the LIRR so that the current MU can be used on the Oyster Bay branch, as well as points east of Huntington, Ronkonkoma, and Babylon... That way, it can provide direct service to Manhattan and Flatbush Ave, rather than taking the train only to Jamaica, or using the extension to LIC or Hunterspoint Ave...
- Subject: Re: Electrification {was: LIRR Montauk Station Closings(?)}
- Message Number: 758268
- Posted by: Andrew Huie
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:12 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Electrification {was: LIRR Montauk Station Closings(?)} posted by Daniel A. Valles on September 24, 1997 at 19:17:31: Unlikely, many of the non-electrified portions of the LIRR simply do not have have enough passengers to warrant it. A good example is the Ronkonkoma Branch east of Ronkonkoma.

Thread title: Re: Another tack - West of Hudson-new schedules (758183)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:41:02 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: Re: Another tack - West of Hudson-new schedules
Message Number: 758183
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:02 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: Another tack (was Re; regarding longest ........) posted by ~airplane on September 23, 1997 at 17:57:36: Our local paper (Times Herald -Record you can find it probably in the paper bins at Hoboken!) had a little more detailed info. Essentially they are adding an extra train in the morning eastbound; and they are making all the peak trains out of Hoboken expresses,i.e. no stops until Suffern. This finally gives the west of Hudson riders almost equality with their brethern on the Hudson line. As far as weekend sevice is concerned,there was no mention of anything- but eventually they have to do something! Its easier for me on a weekend to drive 25 miles over to Beacon than it is to usr the one train down and one train back to Hoboken; and believe me, if you have ever seen the weekend ridership on the PJ line I'm not the only one!
- Subject: Re: Another tack - West of Hudson-new schedules
- Message Number: 758220
- Posted by: ~airplane
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:33 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Another tack - West of Hudson-new schedules posted by Lou from Middletown on September 24, 1997 at 19:18:03: Actually, my information did come from the Record. I was wondering about the updated procedure for adding new trains, which is very briefly mentioned at the end of the article. If there are to be no more negotiations, who calls the shots now - NJT or MNR?
  - Subject: Re: Another tack - West of Hudson-new schedules
  - Message Number: 758319
  - Posted by: Lou from Middletown
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:52 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Another tack - West of Hudson-new schedules posted by ~airplane on September 25, 1997 at 19:21:37: I always assume that the contract between M-N and NJT is pretty specific in its terms as afar as schedules and such is concerned.No t actually knowing the machinations that goes on on these negotiations, one could only guess! I would assume that M-N calls alot of the shots, however, they pay NJT quite a bit in money and equipment to run this!

Thread title: Re: Riding the NYC subway system one one fare (was:most of commuter rail (758185)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:41:04 1997, by .

Subject: Re: Riding the NYC subway system one one fare (was:most of commuter rail
Message Number: 758185
Posted by: .
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:04 1997
- Subject: Re: Riding the NYC subway system one one fare (was:most of commuter rail
- Message Number: 758189
- Posted by: .
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:07 1997
  - Subject: Re: Riding the NYC subway system one one fare (was:most of commuter rail
  - Message Number: 758190
  - Posted by: .
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:08 1997
    - Subject: Re: Riding the NYC subway system one one fare (was:most of commuter rail
    - Message Number: 758209
    - Posted by: .
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:24 1997

Thread title: Changes on the Q and N lines (758195)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:41:12 1997, by Steve

Subject: Changes on the Q and N lines
Message Number: 758195
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:12 1997

Changes are coming on the Q train - soon. The R-68As will be moved to the B line and the R-40Ss will be moved to the Q line. Changes on the N line too.- The open cut segment of the N line will be reduced from 4 tracks to 3. One track will be removed and the remaining 'express' track will be made bi-directional with a new signal system.
- Subject: Re: Changes on the Q and N lines
- Message Number: 758198
- Posted by: Julio Perez
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:16 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Changes on the Q and N lines posted by Steve on September 25, 1997 at 00:58:10: With the removal of one of the tracks, will this mean there will be some sort of skip-stop service a la Z line?
  - Subject: Re: Changes on the Q and N lines
  - Message Number: 758199
  - Posted by: Dave
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:16 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Changes on the Q and N lines posted by Steve on September 25, 1997 at 00:58:10: Why is the TA removing one of the tracks?
    - Subject: Re: Changes on the Q and N lines
    - Message Number: 758208
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:24 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Changes on the Q and N lines posted by Steve on September 25, 1997 at 00:58:10: R40 slants on the Q line soon? Wow - I guess I should be happy (even though they're ugly) because that presents us railfans with the better cab view of the Brighton line again! Is the single express track plan for the Sea Beach open cut a test of the signal system, or might you be aware of more permanent plans for this single track (such as a peak hour express). Or will this track continue to be used for testing rolling stock as it has traditionally been? And I guess I'm curious as to why NYC Transit is even bothering to tear the other express track out. Why not just leave it alone and sever connections to it? Wouldn't this save money? --Mark
      - Subject: Re: Changes on the Q and N lines
      - Message Number: 758215
      - Posted by: John
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Changes on the Q and N lines posted by Julio Perez on September 25, 1997 at 08:04:58: And what's the purpose of the equipment shift?
        
        Subject: Re: Changes on the Q and N lines
        Message Number: 758233
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Changes on the Q and N lines posted by John on September 25, 1997 at 15:33:57: There are two reasons for the equipment shift: First: The Q line being only a 'part-time' line currently means that the R-68A fleet does not accumulate mileage fast enough. On the B line, they will. Second: With R-40 equipment on the Q line, station dwell time will be reduced due to 8 additional door openings per train.
        
        Subject: Re: Changes on the Q and N lines
        Message Number: 758237
        Posted by: Jeff
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:47 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Changes on the Q and N lines posted by Steve on September 27, 1997 at 00:13:41: In '94 the R33's used to run on the #5 line and the R26,27,29's ran on the #2 line. Then all of the sudden they switched. What was the deal with that? AND doesn't Switching equiptment cause trouble with the trains? After years of running on the same tracks one would think that the trains themselves get used to the tracks.
        
        Subject: Re: Changes on the Q and N lines
        Message Number: 758240
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:50 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Changes on the Q and N lines posted by Jeff on September 27, 1997 at 11:15:11: I hope that you're not serious about that. The trains actually like a change of scenery every now and then. Currently there are: #2 Line ..... 310 R-33GEs #5 Line ..... 90 R-26GEs 80 R-28GEs 100 R-29GEs 30 R-33GEs 20 R-62As
        
        Subject: Re: Changes on the Q and N lines
        Message Number: 758243
        Posted by: John
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Changes on the Q and N lines posted by Steve on September 27, 1997 at 20:47:27: The 5 uses R-62As? I never seen them on the 5 - I thought it was a redbird-only line.
        
        Subject: Re: Changes on the Q and N lines
        Message Number: 758244
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:53 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Changes on the Q and N lines posted by John on September 28, 1997 at 00:16:50: Yes- there are R-62A cars on the 5. They are used during rush hours (5 to Flatbush Ave.) and during the OPTO period After rush hour in the am is over, they store them at 180 yard.(They cut the train at E180.) I myself have ridden R62A trains on the 5.
        
        Subject: Re: Changes on the Q and N lines
        Message Number: 758414
        Posted by: Andrew Byler
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Changes on the Q and N lines posted by Mark S Feinman on September 25, 1997 at 12:47:38: Mark, You ask why rip out one center track? $$$$$$$$$$$!!!! Tracks cost money to maintain. Unused express tracks generate no revenue. Rails and ties have scrap value, and can be reused elsewhere on the system, or else recycled. Hence it is profitable to pull them out. As far as the N-line is concerned, one unused express track should be sufficient for the time being. Perhaps they'll rebuild a couple of stations to two center platforms so that there could be actual express serivce (one-way) during peak hours. We'll see .... Andy
        
        Subject: Re: Changes on the Q and N lines
        Message Number: 758450
        Posted by: Ray
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Changes on the Q and N lines posted by Steve on September 27, 1997 at 00:13:41: If the TA want to accumulate milage on the R-68A then why didn't they assign them to the F? F is a much longer line than B.
        
        Subject: Re: Changes on the Q and N lines
        Message Number: 758453
        Posted by: John
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:35 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Changes on the Q and N lines posted by Ray on October 05, 1997 at 11:26:34: Or even the A. The A is the longest subway line in the system.
        
        Subject: Re: Changes on the Q and N lines
        Message Number: 758480
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:56 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Changes on the Q and N lines posted by Ray on October 05, 1997 at 11:26:34: There are several reasons why this would not be done. The biggest is political. There was a large outcry from the Q line riders when the 68As were pulled fron 'their' line. The screams would be much louder if the 46s were moved from the Queens corridor. Second, the R-46s average a bit more than 4 million miles per month. If you limit the use of 30% of that fleet, then you have only shifted the problem. Third, was the fact that the Q line lays up at night. Moving the R-40s to the Q will permit these cars to get more attention in maintenance and cleaning at night, both are sorely needed. Finally, it is not desireable to fragment fleets unnecessarilly. Moving 30% of the 46 fleet to another shop would make no sense from a maintenance or logistics standpoint.

Thread title: What's Under Harlem River Drive (758196)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:41:13 1997, by Julio Perez

Subject: What's Under Harlem River Drive
Message Number: 758196
Posted by: Julio Perez
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:13 1997

When I was a kid, I remember seeing some trains underneath Harlem River Drive, as seen from the area of the Major Deegan Expressway and the Macombs Dam Bridge, looking towards the west. Was (is??) this a terminal for the #3 trains?
- Subject: Re: What's Under Harlem River Drive
- Message Number: 758207
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:23 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]What's Under Harlem River Drive posted by Julio Perez on September 25, 1997 at 07:50:00: I think the 148th St/Lenox Terminal and the Lenox yard are in that location. Now there's an apartment house that was built over the tracks so the view may not be as good. --Mark

Thread title: Usage of Center Track Segments (758197)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:41:15 1997, by Julio Perez

Subject: Usage of Center Track Segments
Message Number: 758197
Posted by: Julio Perez
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:15 1997

I know there's a fairly extensive FAQ file about, among other things, underused center tracks where 3 sets of tracks are present throughout the NYCTA system. But I'm still confused. I'd like to know whether the following center-track segments were _ever_ used for an express or other sort of revenue service (_not_ for storage exclusively): * 7th Avenue/Broadway (currently 1/9), from 103rd to 145th Streets * 7th Avenue/Broadway (currently 1/9), from 157th Street north towards 242nd Street (don't know how much further the center track runs past 225th Street) * Broadway Local in Queens (currently N), from Queensboro Plaza to Ditmars Boulevard
- Subject: Re: Usage of Center Track Segments
- Message Number: 758222
- Posted by: Adam Weiss
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:35 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Usage of Center Track Segments posted by Julio Perez on September 25, 1997 at 08:02:54: I can help answer your question on one of the points listed above. The express track between Queensboro Plaza (actually it starts just south of 39th Ave) was once used for an express N train about ten years ago or so. The express N was in service only for a short while; however I do not know the exact dates. It travelled on the express track from Queensboro Plaza to Astoria Blvd. and then to Ditmars Blvd. because these are the only two stations with an express platform on the Astoria Line.
  - Subject: Re: Usage of Center Track Segments
  - Message Number: 758239
  - Posted by: Joshua Caesar
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:49 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Usage of Center Track Segments posted by Adam Weiss on September 26, 1997 at 10:37:56: I used to live in Astoria. I can name a situation where the center track was used, but all of the line's station received service. I think about five or six years ago, the tracks on the N train were replaced, and Manhattan bound service ran on the center track, with temporary platforms over the local track. After the track was replaced, the temporary platforms went up on the Astoria bound side, and the same work was done. JC Josh Caesar StudlyJC@aol.com

Thread title: Re: Changes on the N Physical Layout (758203)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:41:20 1997, by Chris

Subject: Re: Changes on the N Physical Layout
Message Number: 758203
Posted by: Chris
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:20 1997

In Reply to: [6]Changes on the Q and N lines posted by Steve on September 25, 1997 at 00:58:10: Hi Will there be any changes to the physical layout--interlockings,switches ??? Do you have any drawings of the new track layout
- Subject: Re: Changes on the N Physical Layout
- Message Number: 758271
- Posted by: subway-buff
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:15 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Changes on the N Physical Layout posted by Chris on September 25, 1997 at 11:04:27: One correctable problem exists on the N line, if they will make it a three track. At locations where the tracks enter a station on the open cut section- the street bridge has four archways- one for each track with a concrete wall between each track. Either they will keep one of the two express tracks and leave the "trackway" of the other or they would have to rebuild the station entrances-not impossible either way. There are other inmstances of reduced trackage with a decaying "fossil" of a track such as the A Rockaway line. (The other open cut subway- D/Q also has the arched station entrances but to my knowledge there is no plan to reduce trackage.)

Thread title: LIRR car fire? (758205)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:41:21 1997, by Peter Rosa

Subject: LIRR car fire?
Message Number: 758205
Posted by: Peter Rosa
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:21 1997

This morning (9-25), I saw what appeared to be a burned LIRR car at the Hillside Yard. The car's windows and doors were covered up, and there appeared to be smoke marks above the doors. It was too far away to read the car number. I haven't heard anything recently about an LIRR car fire. Does anyone have any details?
- Subject: Re: LIRR car fire?
- Message Number: 758232
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:43 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]LIRR car fire? posted by Peter Rosa on September 25, 1997 at 11:27:25: I think that car was from an incident which took place in Penn. Station in April.
  - Subject: Re: LIRR car fire?
  - Message Number: 758260
  - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:06 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]LIRR car fire? posted by Peter Rosa on September 25, 1997 at 11:27:25: I dunno, but I HAVE noticed on on the & train, when you pass over the Sunnyside yards and into Queensboro (?) plaza, there are 6 (!) or so M-1s that look like there being scrapped. They also look like they've sat there a while because they've gotten tagged already. Then again, this being NY... Anyway, does anyone know about these units, are they junkers, long term storage, being rebuilt into the LIRR's upcomming new electrics (I've heard rumours that the the M-1's are *finnaly* being replaced in a few years)??

Thread title: Swaying LIRR MUs (758212)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:41:27 1997, by Bill Ruiz

Subject: Swaying LIRR MUs
Message Number: 758212
Posted by: Bill Ruiz
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:27 1997

Why is it that the LIRR MUs seem to sway alot when they are moving? Even when passengers board the MUs, you can at times see the car move to one side. But when I ride on NJ Transit, their fleet does not seem to have this problem. We will ever get a stable ride from the LIRR?
- Subject: Re: Swaying LIRR MUs
- Message Number: 758214
- Posted by: John
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:29 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Swaying LIRR MUs posted by Bill Ruiz on September 25, 1997 at 14:02:13: Yeah, they do sway a lot, don't they? The NJ Transit MUs don't sway as much, but they bounce a hell of a lot. It feels like they have grasshoppers for wheel trucks. So you sway all the way from Long Island, and bounce your way across New Jersey - UGH!! It's enough to make anyone seasick (or trainsick)!
  - Subject: Re: Swaying LIRR MUs
  - Message Number: 758235
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:46 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Swaying LIRR MUs posted by Bill Ruiz on September 25, 1997 at 14:02:13: I would have to guess that it's the type of suspension that results in the exaggerated sway on the M-1s and M-3s. The LIRR cars use torsion bar suspension while the NJT equipment uses traditional bolster and equalizer spring suspension.

Thread title: Elimination of conductors on some lines (758213)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:41:28 1997, by John M.

Subject: Elimination of conductors on some lines
Message Number: 758213
Posted by: John M.
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:28 1997

On Tuesday in the Daily News and yesterday in the New York Times, there were reports about eliminating conductors on the C and G lines on weekends, and the #6 train at night north of 125th Street. The MTA's long range plan to have trains operated only by motormen is projected (by them) to save $1 million per year. I'd be curious to know ome opinions about this. I think it is a bad move even if it does save $1 million because of the obvious security problem-- when I moved to NYC ten years ago, I was told that the safest place to ride at night was in the conductor's car. Of course, the conductor cannot really prevent a serious crime, but his/her presence, or "eyes," make people safer and may discourage crime in the conductor's car. This is akin to back in the '80's when the MTA wanted to eliminate newstands. The presence of the news vendors also made the stations safer.
- Subject: Re: Elimination of conductors on some lines
- Message Number: 758221
- Posted by: lake
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:34 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Elimination of conductors on some lines posted by John M. on September 25, 1997 at 14:52:50: Look, if the unions are going to press the MTA's noses to the wall (it costs the MTA at least $2.50 - $4.00 per passenger at night to transport people thanks to the unions' perks, benefits, whining, and pay). Anything that works, screws the unions and saves the MTA money so it can be plugged into other areas is worth it. As for the unions, poor babies. go ahead and cry on this one. It would help if you didn't waste tax payer money by doing two hours worth of work on an eight hour shift. P.S. - A question for everybody. Those guys in the notorious hardhats and reflector vests - do they ever do anything other than sit around stations and smoke? We should say "Oh, pardon me, were you on an 8-hour break?"
  - Subject: Re: Elimination of conductors on some lines
  - Message Number: 758236
  - Posted by: Bill
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:46 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Elimination of conductors on some lines posted by lake on September 26, 1997 at 04:38:51: What color are the hardhats?
    - Subject: Re: Elimination of conductors on some lines
    - Message Number: 758419
    - Posted by: Joe
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:09 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Elimination of conductors on some lines posted by lake on September 26, 1997 at 04:38:51: O.P.T.O. and underperforming night transit workers are two different issues. For your information. Each color is representative of a different department/division. However, in all cases a white hat represents a supervisor,superintendent or other manager. If you are concerned about rule employees violating rules or not performing their duties then you should seek out the person wearing the white hat.
      - Subject: Re: Elimination of conductors on some lines
      - Message Number: 758440
      - Posted by: Anonymous Man (Call me Invisie)
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Elimination of conductors on some lines posted by Bill on September 27, 1997 at 08:27:03: Aw jeez! Where are you idiots getting to? Are we talking about conductors being eliminated or construction workers on the system???????

Thread title: Chicago CTA Pictures (758231)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:41:42 1997, by David Pirmann - Web Site Host

Subject: Chicago CTA Pictures
Message Number: 758231
Posted by: David Pirmann - Web Site Host
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:42 1997

Greetings! I know some of you had asked for pictures of the Chicago Els in the past. Well thanks to the camera of Mark Feinman we now have a whole slew. Check out [6]Chicago Transit: The CTA. --Dave

Thread title: BMT DeKalb Ave. Station Reconstruction in the 1950's (758238)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:41:48 1997, by Mike Rothenberg

Subject: BMT DeKalb Ave. Station Reconstruction in the 1950's
Message Number: 758238
Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:48 1997

Hi. How was the BMT DeKalb Ave. reconstruction project (around the mid-1950's) done, so as to maintain both train operations and street traffic above? What was done was this: the cross-overs connecting each platforms' two tracks were moved from the Manhattan-facing side to the Coney Island-facing side. The platforms were lengthened for 10-car, rather than 8-car, trains. Finally, 2 tracks were added, con- necting the Brighton line to the platforms' outer tracks, in addition to their inner track connections. I'd like document ID's on this (& how to get them), names/s-/e-mail addresses of people who know. My main interest: how this was done with minimal train disruption. Thx.
- Subject: Re: BMT DeKalb Ave. Station Reconstruction in the 1950's
- Message Number: 758281
- Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:22 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]BMT DeKalb Ave. Station Reconstruction in the 1950's posted by Mike Rothenberg on September 27, 1997 at 11:15:31: Somewhere in there the big change was missed. The crossovers which originally tied the DeKalb Station to the Manhattan Bridge were replaced with a grade separated junction, allowing trains on either pair of bridge tracks to reach either the express or local tracks through DeKalb and then either the Brighton or Fourth Av. lines south of there, without crossing the tracks of an opposing train. Myrtle Av. Station was wiped out in the process with only the northbound platform remaining. This was the real disruptive portion of the project. The various tie-ins (if any) south of Dekalb Av. were minor compared to the bridge approach work, and were mostly accomplished within existing spaces.
  - Subject: Re: BMT DeKalb Ave. Station Reconstruction in the 1950's
  - Message Number: 758300
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:37 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]BMT DeKalb Ave. Station Reconstruction in the 1950's posted by Mike Rothenberg on September 27, 1997 at 11:15:31: I began attending High School in that general area in 1957, and I believe the reconstruction was just finishing up. My recollection is superficial because I rode the IND, not the BMT. However, I am fairly sure that Flatbush Avenue was NOT dug up at all during that time period.
    - Subject: Re: BMT DeKalb Ave. Station Reconstruction in the 1950's
    - Message Number: 758329
    - Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:00 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: BMT DeKalb Ave. Station Reconstruction in the 1950's posted by Gerry O'Regan on September 29, 1997 at 14:47:33: I want to thank Gerry for correcting my original posting: the cross- overs were eliminated and replaced by different switch arrangements at the other end of both platforms, so both tracks at each platform would be accessable to Brighton & 4th Ave. trains. My main interest is the construction strategy that allowed train operations to go un- impeded most of the time, during construction & tie-in. For example, (1) how were the Coney Island-side parts of the platforms & adjacent tunnels renovated to create openings that allowed the switches to be installed, and (2) how were the 2 new Brighton access tracks built & connected to the outer tracks, all with minimal train disruption?

Thread title: My Uncle! Charles T. Salvia (Charlie) (758241)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:41:51 1997, by Joseph Salvia

Subject: My Uncle! Charles T. Salvia (Charlie)
Message Number: 758241
Posted by: Joseph Salvia
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:51 1997

Hi All, My Uncle Charlie retired from Coney Island Shop over 20 years ago. He still tells some wonderful stories of the TA and the men he worked with. He truly loved his work and his job.I know if he knew I was writing this message he'd say "Best Regards, to all." Charlie's Nephew, Joe Salvia
- Subject: Re: My Uncle! Charles T. Salvia (Charlie)
- Message Number: 758309
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:44 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]My Uncle! Charles T. Salvia (Charlie) posted by Joseph Salvia on September 27, 1997 at 21:09:30: Was he any relation to Dan Salvia, who was very senior in the Car Maintenance Dept. back in the late 70s-early 80s???
  - Subject: Re: My Uncle! Charles T. Salvia (Charlie)
  - Message Number: 758356
  - Posted by: Joseph Salvia
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:20 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: My Uncle! Charles T. Salvia (Charlie) posted by Charles Fiori on September 30, 1997 at 15:13:44: Hi Charles, We may be related to Dan, but we would have to trace a geneology tree. I believe my Uncle knew Dan very well. He always spoke highly of the Salvia's in Transit.I know some of them were on Jay Street. Not because of the same name, but because of their expertise in the field. Thanks for the question I'll forward it to my Uncle Charlie. Respectfully, Joe Salvia
    - Subject: Re: My Uncle! Charles T. Salvia (Charlie)
    - Message Number: 758370
    - Posted by: Charles Fiori
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:30 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: My Uncle! Charles T. Salvia (Charlie) posted by Joseph Salvia on October 01, 1997 at 19:44:14: I believe there is so much to learn from experienced people like your uncle. The 'old school' teaches respect and learning from experience and not enough people do that these days. I was grateful back then for a feloow like Mike Lombardi (your uncle would probably know of him) who knew of my interests in trains and, as long as I did my job, would let me explore my whims. Keep in touch.
      - Subject: Re: My Uncle! Charles T. Salvia (Charlie)
      - Message Number: 758405
      - Posted by: Joseph Salvia
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: My Uncle! Charles T. Salvia (Charlie) posted by Charles Fiori on October 02, 1997 at 07:09:04: Hi Charles, I know my Uncle would be thankful of your kind words;I most certainly am.Yes,My Uncle Charlie still tells stories about the TA. For years I thought he was the only one,but after seeing this board I can see it gets in your blood with a passion. I am forwarding all correspondence to him because I know he would enjoy it.I believe I have heard the name Mike Lombardi numerous times. Regards, Joe Salvia

Thread title: NJT-Abandoned Stations (758245)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:41:54 1997, by subway-buff

Subject: NJT-Abandoned Stations
Message Number: 758245
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:54 1997

Does anyone have an abandoned station list for NJTs Northeast Corrdiror. I see a low level platform-quite ornamental though overgrown just West(South?) of where the PATH storage tracks ends.. AT SOuth and Burnett Street in Elizabeth -taht is west of the "big ditch" I see stairs from the street coming up between the outside NY bound track and the track just to the North of it (between Track A and Track 1.) When were these abandoned. N Rahway was closed in 1993. Are there others?
- Subject: Re: NJT-Abandoned Stations
- Message Number: 758249
- Posted by: John
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:57 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]NJT-Abandoned Stations posted by subway-buff on September 28, 1997 at 06:56:10: There's also the Roseville Avenue and Ampere Parkway stops on the Montclair Line that were abandoned. You have to look really hard to see the Roseville Avenue stop. From the track level, it is nothing more than a low-level concrete platform at the point where the Montclair Line and Morristown lines split. On the street, there is a boarded-up stairway. The Ampere Parkway station is still intact, but is in a considerable state of decay. I think the signs are still there, though.
  - Subject: Re: NJT-Abandoned Stations
  - Message Number: 758253
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:00 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: NJT-Abandoned Stations posted by John on September 28, 1997 at 12:46:20: There's also Harrison station on the NJT M&E line just east of the Passaic River Drawbridge. Two low-level platforms and closed off stairways to the streets. I seem to think there were two closed stations in the East Orange cut, one at the Montclair junction and one other, but it's been a few years since I rode this line...
    - Subject: Re: NJT-Abandoned Stations
    - Message Number: 758257
    - Posted by: faxman
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:04 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: NJT-Abandoned Stations posted by David Pirmann on September 28, 1997 at 14:01:08: south of newark station there was south st, south elizabeth, north rahway, and few stations between new brunswick and trenton nj on the amtrack main line
      - Subject: Re: NJT-Abandoned Stations
      - Message Number: 758292
      - Posted by: Charlie Bonaire
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NJT-Abandoned Stations posted by faxman on September 28, 1997 at 16:17:35: Re: the Roseville Station. As I grew up in Roseville, I recall there was a very handsome passenger/freight station there on Seventh Avenue and Ninth Street, and a neat looking switching tower a block away on Roseville Ave., next to the White Diamond hamburger joint. We moved out in '67 after the riots, and it seemed like it wasn't long before the trains started skipping Roseville. (The station was soon pulled down, and the tower was burned down). Re: North Rahway. Built, I guess, mainly to serve employees of the adjacent Merck Co., this little "wide spot in the road" also has many memories. My folks bought a house half a block away from it, and I spent many summer nights sitting there plucking the guitar while the trains sped by. I was sorry to hear it had closed. Don't mean to sound like John-Boy Walton, but the topic struck a chord.
        
        Subject: Re: NJT-Abandoned Stations
        Message Number: 758413
        Posted by: Andrew Byler
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NJT-Abandoned Stations posted by faxman on September 28, 1997 at 16:17:35: The abandoned Monmouth Jct. stop can be seen as the train whizzes by. Abandoned stops are also much in evidence throughout S. Jersey on the Camden - Millville line (abandoned in 1969) and the Winslow Jct. - Ocean City / Wildwood / Cape May lines (abandoned in 1981). Andy

Thread title: YOU ARE SO RIGHT! (758248)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:41:56 1997, by Keranu

Subject: YOU ARE SO RIGHT!
Message Number: 758248
Posted by: Keranu
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:56 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: I know it's not worth it but... posted by sammy on September 23, 1997 at 04:26:15: I salute you and agree TOTALLY.

Thread title: SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line Stations (West Phila.) (758252)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:41:59 1997, by Timothy

Subject: SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line Stations (West Phila.)
Message Number: 758252
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:41:59 1997

Of the 5 elevated stations on the West Philadelphia portion of the Market- Frankford Line (46th St., 52nd St., 56th St, 60th St., and 63rd St.), all have the same design and architecture, except for the 60th St. station. As seen from the street, all the stations, except 60th St., have the original building that surrounds the center platform. Although the interior of the buildings were modernized with stainless steel back in the 1980's, the exteriors still maintain their original character. Even some of the original railings still surround the platforms. Unfortunately, all of the original stairways have since been replaced, which of course, takes away some of the stations' original character. As for the 60th St. station, it is totally different. From the street, it looks like the station was built using square glass panels, and looks much more modern than the other 4 stations. Can anyone tell me why 60th St. is the only station that's different? Did something happen to the original 60th St. station, such as fire? Were there plans at one time to tear down all of the West Philadelphia elevated stations, and rebuild them with the design of 60th St., with 60th St. being the first to have it done? Hope someone can explain this.
- Subject: Re: SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line Stations (West Phila.)
- Message Number: 758256
- Posted by: Bobw
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:03 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line Stations (West Phila.) posted by Timothy on September 28, 1997 at 13:47:29: 60th St was the prototype for a modernized el station that could be used both on the Market St and Frankford ends. It was completed in the mid-70's, with the work done while the station remained in service (part of the wooden temporary platforms on the east end of the station are still there, used as catwalks). Like many things, money ran out and no others were done. The entire Market St el is now being slated for replacement and all 5 stations on Market St will be rebuilt in some form or another.

Thread title: Long LIRR trains... (758254)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:42:01 1997, by Philip Nasadowski

Subject: Long LIRR trains...
Message Number: 758254
Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:01 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: long trains on LIRR posted by Peter Rosa on September 26, 1997 at 16:27:00: Third rail gaps would do it - there are a few (noteably Jamcia and Penn) that are pretty long. Also, most LIRR yards don't have the space to be moving trains around. Certainly not Port Washington... I was once told that difficulties moving cars around was why they simply closed a few cars on the train. Metro North moves trains around all the time on New Haven, so I tenmd to think it's a space - not technical problem. But if the train is headed to GCT, it's always 4 or more cars because of the gaps there. The Danbury (or is it New Cannan???) train is normaly 2 or 3 cars long...
- Subject: Re: Long LIRR trains...
- Message Number: 758276
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:18 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Long LIRR trains... posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 28, 1997 at 15:19:54: Third rail gaps would not be an issue for Metro-North trains on the Danbury or New Canaan branches. Electric power on the New Canaan branch is supplied by overhead catenaries. Gaps could be a problem for rush hour trains on this branch, however, as many of them run into Grand Central. During the off-hours the trains run as shuttles between Stamford and New Haven. The Danbury branch is not electrified; as far as I know, off-hour trains to Danbury use only two coaches.

Thread title: NJ Transit Electrification (758255)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:42:02 1997, by Ted

Subject: NJ Transit Electrification
Message Number: 758255
Posted by: Ted
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:02 1997

Are there any plans to complete or start the electrification of the following NJ Transit Lines : * NJCL , Long Branch to Bay Head * Boonton Line to Dover ( via the Montclair connection ) * Pascack Valley Line to Spring Valley * Main / Bergen Lines to Suffern * Raritan Valley Line to High Bridge
- Subject: Re: NJ Transit Electrification
- Message Number: 758259
- Posted by: Timothy
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:05 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]NJ Transit Electrification posted by Ted on September 28, 1997 at 15:40:43: ...and the Atlantic City line between Philadelphia and Atlantic City.
  - Subject: Re: NJ Transit Electrification
  - Message Number: 758261
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:07 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]NJ Transit Electrification posted by Ted on September 28, 1997 at 15:40:43: I hear the Boonton line (once connected to the Montclair line) will be electrified to Great Neck in Wayne.
    - Subject: Re: NJ Transit Electrification
    - Message Number: 758267
    - Posted by: Andrew Huie
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:12 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]NJ Transit Electrification posted by Ted on September 28, 1997 at 15:40:43: Wasn't the Main/Bergen Co. lines electrified at some point? Years ago I remember them using Arrow-type cars which I thought ran on catenary power, but when I see them now, they appear to be pulled/pushed by locomotives. If it was electrified, why did they de-electrify it, instead of converting it like the Morristown line?
      - Subject: Re: NJ Transit Electrification
      - Message Number: 758272
      - Posted by: David Pirmann
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NJ Transit Electrification posted by Andrew Huie on September 28, 1997 at 23:27:03: The Ex-Erie lines were never electrified. There are some old Arrow I (which were electric MU cars) that were rebuilt into "Comet" coaches which now have the designation Comet IB (5155-5169, 5220-5234). Maybe this is what you remember. These were converted in 1987.
        
        Subject: Re: NJ Transit Electrification
        Message Number: 758485
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NJ Transit Electrification posted by David Pirmann on September 29, 1997 at 09:42:33: That could be it. I guess my assumption mainly came about because these cars sported the 'M' of the MTA, and since the Suffern-Port Jervis line was run by the MTA, it wouldn't seem unreasonable for the MTA buy cars for the service to Suffern. It never occurred to me that they ran on the Morristown line.

Thread title: Car #7773 (758265)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:42:10 1997, by John

Subject: Car #7773
Message Number: 758265
Posted by: John
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:10 1997

Does anybody know the status of NYC Subway car #7773? I beleive it's an R-26 that has one of its end doors from an R-21 car. Is this car still in service?
- Subject: Re: Car #7773
- Message Number: 758275
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:18 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Car #7773 posted by John on September 28, 1997 at 21:37:47: I don't recall seeing #7773 lately, but I'm sure it's doing its' duty on the #5 line. Yes, it has a end door from the R-21/22

Thread title: Nyc Transit (758273)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:42:16 1997, by Howard

Subject: Nyc Transit
Message Number: 758273
Posted by: Howard
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:16 1997

Does anybody know about the track level platforms on PATH after Newark, they are not used in passenger service. They are very close together, maybe a few hundred feet apart. My second question is about the NYC buses, when their engines start, it sounds like a elephant is dying. Why do they make this strange, loud sound? I hope somebody can answer these questions for me.
- Subject: Nyc Transit
- Message Number: 758274
- Posted by: Howard
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:17 1997
  
  Does anybody know about the track level platforms on PATH after Newark, they are not used in passenger service. They are very close together, maybe a few hundred feet apart. My second question is about the NYC buses, when their engines start, it sounds like a elephant is dying. Why do they make this strange, loud sound? I hope somebody can answer these questions for me.
  - Subject: Re: Nyc Transit
  - Message Number: 758280
  - Posted by: Russ
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:21 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Nyc Transit posted by Howard on September 29, 1997 at 10:20:31: They are air start starters on those buses. They howl as copressed air is forced into the starter motor and fire up!
    - Subject: Re: Nyc Transit
    - Message Number: 758294
    - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:33 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Nyc Transit posted by Howard on September 29, 1997 at 10:20:31: I don't know about PATH, but the reason for the loud noise from the TA bus is they start the buses by forcing compressed air into the cylanders (how do you spell that?) until the engine turns itself over. (called 'air start') -Hank
      - Subject: Re: Nyc Transit
      - Message Number: 758365
      - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Nyc Transit posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 30, 1997 at 06:46:26: Air Starters don't force air into the cylinders, it's an air-operated starter motor that turns the engine over faster than electric. Also, buses would have to carry massive batteries with electric starters than with air starters.

Thread title: 63rd Street Connection (758277)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:42:19 1997, by Christopher Roman

Subject: 63rd Street Connection
Message Number: 758277
Posted by: Christopher Roman
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:19 1997

I was wondering if anyone could send me a detailed explaination on the tuneel on 63rd Street.. If you have illistrations, that wouldbe helpful. I'm building a new layout with the Bahn software that is going to knock the socks off of people.. Whatever information is provided, you will be metioned in the credits..PROMISE! Thank You
- Subject: Re: 63rd Street Connection
- Message Number: 758431
- Posted by: John da stranger
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:18 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]63rd Street Connection posted by Christopher Roman on September 29, 1997 at 13:10:30: I think you can try the maps section.

Thread title: orion buses (758278)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:42:20 1997, by trolleybus

Subject: orion buses
Message Number: 758278
Posted by: trolleybus
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:20 1997

nyc dot has begun taking delivery of 1997 orion buses. They are going to the private franchised companies.Command bus is getting cngs, while some others are regular orion 5s.
- Subject: Re: orion buses
- Message Number: 758288
- Posted by: Bryan Laaaaaaaayne
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:28 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]orion buses posted by trolleybus on September 29, 1997 at 13:51:05: Will the new Orion 5's replace some of the MCI Classics?
  - Subject: Re: orion buses
  - Message Number: 758308
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:44 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]orion buses posted by trolleybus on September 29, 1997 at 13:51:05: Today's (9/30) NY Daily News, available on-line, carries a story about the purchase by NYC of New Flyers vs. Orions. Seems a little tempest in a teapot is brewing...

Thread title: MTA personnel at TTC (758279)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:42:21 1997, by Russ

Subject: MTA personnel at TTC
Message Number: 758279
Posted by: Russ
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:21 1997

Anyone know anything about a Mr. Lawler from the MTA that is on assignment to consult at the TTC Control Center? He seems like a very knowlegdable person who knows his transit (subway) stuff. Not looking for dirt, just interested in what he did at the MTA.
- Subject: Re: MTA personnel at TTC
- Message Number: 758287
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:27 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]MTA personnel at TTC posted by Russ on September 29, 1997 at 14:00:59: Mr. Joe Lawler was the General Superintendent (Rapid transit Operations) for District 5. His responsibilities included the day to day operations on the A and C lines.
  - Subject: Re: MTA personnel at TTC
  - Message Number: 758298
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:36 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]MTA personnel at TTC posted by Russ on September 29, 1997 at 14:00:59: I used to work with Joe Lawler when I worked for the VP&GM of Rapid Transit's office (Charles Kalkhof) back in 1981-82. He knew his dispatching and movement of equipment, that's for sure. I remember one time there was a massive bottleneck at the Main St.-Flushing terminal on the 7 line. As you may know, that line runs on a paper-thin headway anyway. When the interlocking machine controlling the approach to the terminal went out one rush hour, he and a colleague did a tremendous job moving service in and out of the station. I remember that the late John Simpson, who ran the TA at the time gave Joe a personal commendation because of the nature of his effort. Joe is certainly top shelf!!!!
    - Subject: Re: MTA personnel at TTC
    - Message Number: 758372
    - Posted by: Russ Hilder
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:32 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: MTA personnel at TTC posted by Charles Fiori on September 30, 1997 at 09:11:20: Thank you Charles and Steve. I'm glad to know that I will be working with a true professional who knows a lot about rapid transit. We are getting a little weary of so called experts. Joe impressed me right off with his grasp and knowledge of heavy rail subway and signalling, although this is a different type property. It should be a pleasure working with him. Thanks again.
      - Subject: Re: MTA personnel at TTC
      - Message Number: 758383
      - Posted by: Charles Fiori
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: MTA personnel at TTC posted by Russ Hilder on October 02, 1997 at 08:20:59: Don't know if he would remember me, but please give him my regards. I worked as an analyst in the General Manager's office in 1981-82 when he joined the Emergency Response Team. Good to see that some of the experienced, quality talent is still around!!
        
        Subject: Re: MTA personnel at TTC
        Message Number: 758389
        Posted by: Russ Hilder
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:46 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: MTA personnel at TTC posted by Charles Fiori on October 02, 1997 at 12:31:08: Charles, Joe remembers you and was very keen on explaining to the Tower staff the incident that you mentioned. He says hi and how are you. Russ
        
        Subject: Re: MTA personnel at TTC
        Message Number: 758397
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: MTA personnel at TTC posted by Russ Hilder on October 03, 1997 at 08:24:28: Good luck and Godspeed up there. I'd love to hear from Joe but am hesitant to put my number in a message
        
        Subject: Re: MTA personnel at TTC
        Message Number: 758993
        Posted by: Russ
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: MTA personnel at TTC posted by Charles Fiori on October 03, 1997 at 13:04:37: I could see if Joe has an E-mail address, or he will give you his postal address here in Toronto for snail mail. Else you could send it to T.T.C 1900 Yonge St. Toronto Ontario, M4S 1Z2 Attn. Joe Lawler A/General Supt. Subway Operations.

Thread title: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination (758282)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:42:23 1997, by Doug of Boston

Subject: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination
Message Number: 758282
Posted by: Doug of Boston
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:23 1997

The Blue Line in Boston runs underground using 3rd rail power. In the last station before the line goes to ground level, power is switched to catenary for the remainder of the line. Does anyone know if any other subway line has this same type of arrangement?
- Subject: Re: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination
- Message Number: 758283
- Posted by: subway-buff
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:24 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination posted by Doug of Boston on September 29, 1997 at 18:11:37: I don't know if you'd exactly call it a subway, but Metro North's New Haven Line starts as 3rd rail from Grand Central to North fo NYC then it changes to Caternary where the Amtrak tracks join. From Grand Central to near 125, the tracks are in a tunnel under Park Avenue
  - Subject: Re: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination
  - Message Number: 758284
  - Posted by: subway-buff
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:25 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination posted by Doug of Boston on September 29, 1997 at 18:11:37: I don't know if you'd exactly call it a subway, but Metro North's New Haven Line starts as 3rd rail from Grand Central to North of NYC then it changes to Caternary where the Amtrak tracks join. From Grand Central to near 125, the tracks are in a tunnel under Park Avenue
    - Subject: Re: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination
    - Message Number: 758285
    - Posted by: Bryan Layne
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:26 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination posted by Doug of Boston on September 29, 1997 at 18:11:37: Yes,the Skokie Swift line in Chicago does exactly that.Its a short line and the Dempster(Skokie) end of the line is overhead caternary and the Howard end (Evanston/Rogers Park...before you transfer to Howard/95th or Evanston Express trains) its third rail power.Im pretty positive about this but i might have missed a detail.
      - Subject: Re: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination
      - Message Number: 758289
      - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination posted by subway-buff on September 29, 1997 at 18:54:22: Yep - it's right after Mount Vernon on the way up. The switch it from 700 (?) V DC to 12 - 15k AC, so it not only switches transmission systems, but electric system too!! I don't think either the CTA or the T lines do that ( but I could be wrong). Incendently, the train does this on the fly - and moving. In other words, you don't even notice it (unless there's a problem of course)
        
        Subject: Re: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination
        Message Number: 758291
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination posted by Doug of Boston on September 29, 1997 at 18:11:37: I don't know about subway lines, but at least one commuter rail line - Metro-North's New Haven line - uses both third rail and catenary power. From Grand Central Terminal to the Pelham-New Rochelle area, the line uses third rail (the same as Metro-North's Harlem and Hudson lines). It then switches over to catenary, about where the Amtrak line joins, and uses catenary to New Haven (and also on the New Canaan branch).
        
        Subject: Re: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination
        Message Number: 758296
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:34 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination posted by Bryan Layne on September 29, 1997 at 18:58:45: The line only has 2 stops--its two terminals. It switches to catenary--on the fly--once it turns north and joins the old North Shore mainline, where it is traveling at grade. Also, at the Wilson Station on the Howard line, there are remnants of the old catenary.
        
        Subject: Re: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination
        Message Number: 758301
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination posted by Doug of Boston on September 29, 1997 at 18:11:37: Yes, the Skokie Swift in Chicago (also known as the CTA Yellow line) switches from third rail to catenary at speed about 1/3 of the way out of Howard. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination
        Message Number: 758306
        Posted by: John
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination posted by subway-buff on September 29, 1997 at 18:54:22: Metro-North ain't no subway!
        
        Subject: Re: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination
        Message Number: 758307
        Posted by: aaron
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination posted by Doug of Boston on September 29, 1997 at 18:11:37: There used to be an interesting situation in Chicago. Before the Mid-70s, the Evanston (now Purple line) was third rail only to the South Blvd station, then trolley pole and wire the rest of the way to Linden. When one-car OPTO trains were running, the motorman had to go to the back of the car and raise the trolley pole before continuing north. When two and four car trains ran, the conductor raised the poles, one for each two car unit. Any cars left from the 1-50 series probably still show some signs of the trolley pole mounting on their roofs and front ends.
        
        Subject: Re: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination
        Message Number: 758324
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:55 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination posted by Doug of Boston on September 29, 1997 at 18:11:37: Does any RR besides metro north run equipment that uses dual electrifications???
        
        Subject: Re: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination
        Message Number: 758326
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination posted by aaron on September 30, 1997 at 13:16:47: Skokie swift still uses 3rd rail from howard st then uses cantanary for the rest of the line. This is the last piece of the north shore remaining in service. CTA cars 1-50 are in work service now have not seen if they still have overhead ploes of cantanary
        
        Subject: Re: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination
        Message Number: 758327
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination posted by subway-buff on September 29, 1997 at 18:54:22: Does AMTRAK still change to Diesel at New Haven or is it Electric all the way to Boston now??
        
        Subject: Re: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination
        Message Number: 758330
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination posted by Joe M on September 30, 1997 at 23:41:10: Don't know, but you might want to check out Amtrak's schedules on the web and see if they still have that layover at New Haven to facilitate the changeover.
        
        Subject: Re: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination
        Message Number: 758332
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:02 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Catenary - 3rd Rail Combination posted by Joe M on September 30, 1997 at 23:41:10: Yes, they still have to change over. An electrification project between New Haven and Boston is underway but not yet complete.

Thread title: Boston subway lines (758286)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:42:27 1997, by ~airplane

Subject: Boston subway lines
Message Number: 758286
Posted by: ~airplane
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:27 1997

Are all of Boston's subway lines a different gauge, or can trains from certain lines run interchangeably?
- Subject: Re: Boston subway lines
- Message Number: 758303
- Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:40 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Boston subway lines posted by ~airplane on September 29, 1997 at 19:11:19: All Boston's Rapid Transit & Streetcar Lines are 4' 8-1/2 inch gauge which is the traditional standard. However, loading guage and tunnel clearances restrict interchangability of equipment. Red Line equipment is 69' 3" long and over 10' wide but the loading guage is 9' 6". Orange Line Equipment is 65' long, 9' 4" wide with an 8' 10" loading gauge. Blue Line Equipment is 48' long and the same width as Orange Line equipment, however the floor height on the Blue Line is lower. Cars bulge out above the floor in each case to take advantage of generous tunnel clearances. This means that Orange Line and Blue line equipment will both fit on the Red Line and has in the past (Orange Line equipment carried passengers 1917 to 1919 with gap fillers, Blue Line equipment for maintenance 1924 to 1952. Past Blue Line equipment (straight sides) would fit on the Orange Line but present day equipment might scrape platforms due to lower floor. AFAIK this has never been done. No equipment from the Red or Orange Lines would fit on Blue Line due to low tunnel roof and curves. Origins Tremont Street Subway opened 1897 for streetcars. Original Elevated opened 1901 with 46' cars to fit Tremont Street Subway clearances. When Washington St. Tunnel opened in 1908, length restriction on Orange Line increased to 55' but cars were not built to this spec until 1957. After Charlestown El closed in 1975, maximum went to 65' length of present cars. Maximum length increased again after Washington St. El closed in 1987, but longer cars are unlikely since station platforms are designed for six 65' cars. Cambridge Subway (Red Line) opened in 1912 with platforms designed for four 69'3" cars. Clearances were sufficient to allow 75' cars as in SOAC demo, but platforms were not extended until the 1980s and then for six car trains of existing equipment. All extensions have been designed for existing equipment. The East Boston Tunnel also was designed for streetcars, and all streetcars designed from 1905 to 1917 were designed for use in the tunnel. In 1924 the line was converted to high platform. The cars in use since then are actually smaller in some ways than the streetcars they replaced. This was due to the ad hoc nature of the platforms, and the need to clear various curves. Sharp curves at State, Government Center and Bowdoin still limit car length. Bowdoin will be dropped as a stop when platforms at other stations are extended for six car trains due to lack of space for a platform extension. Clearances on more recent extensions are more generous. Hope this is helpful to understanding our disjoint system. Gerry
  - Subject: Re: Boston subway lines
  - Message Number: 758305
  - Posted by: John
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:41 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Boston subway lines posted by Gerry O'Regan on September 30, 1997 at 12:57:22: I've also noticed that the Blue Line trains are so short (four cars long, if I remember right), and so are the stations. How come the stations were never lengthened to accomidate longer trains? Doesn't this create a serious problem during the rush hours? Another thing - I definately like the older trains on the Red Line than the new ones!. I just think those trains are too tacky - the electronic signs, the electronic conductor - I hope the R-142s aren't going to be like that! If they are, I'll never ride the New York City subway again! The trolley cars are nice, though - I enjoy riding in those, but I never had the chance to ride in a PCC car on the Green Line.
    - Subject: Re: Boston subway lines
    - Message Number: 758311
    - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:46 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Boston subway lines posted by John on September 30, 1997 at 13:11:08: The Blue Line is presently being adapted for six car trains. In the old days there was no problem, since headways were very short. Recently the signal system has had a time light explosion, slowing down the trip and thus lengthening the headways. At present there is a bus shuttle between Wood Island and Downtown on weekends to allow the platform lengthening to go forward. At Maverick this means just moving some non-structural walls as this station has unused space west of the existing island platform. At Aquarium it means extending the station vault westward. This is being done in conjunction with the Big Dig and requires the platform extensions to be under the depressed Central Artery and above the provision for a north-south rail link. At State the extensions will be eastward due to a sharp curve just west of the station. The work will be cut & cover here as the line is just barely sub-surface. At Government Center the extension will use existing low level platform space west of the existing high island platform, and like Maverick will not require any structural changes. A long closed entrance and mezzanine at the west end of Government Center will be reactivated to serve patrons who now use Bowdoin. This will be at the former intersection of Tremont Row and Hanover St., just beyond where the Green Line turns off to the northeast above. As I mentioned earlier, Bowdoin will be permanently closed since its island platform is too close to the loop to be extended westward, and already quite narrow at the east end. Converting to outside platforms would be too disruptive, require a curve within the station and be prohibitively expensive. As for the new Red Line Cars, it would be nice if the same disembodied voice was used for an entire announcement, and if the voice had a Boston accent:-). However as someone who suffered the 01400s for their entire career, and who never had much love for the 01500-01700 series, I like the 01800s, which do BTW have a human guard (conductor), (he just doesn't have to do announcements) and are the only cars on the line which not only have an unobstructed railfan's window but also a seat next to it:-). RE: the PCCs on the Green Line, just imagine over 100 people packed into one of those, and aside from the lucky 45 in seats, the remainder packed within arms reach of the doors. The LRVs and Type 7s take a crowd better dur to better door spacing. Gerry
      - Subject: Re: Boston subway lines
      - Message Number: 758337
      - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Boston subway lines posted by Gerry O'Regan on September 30, 1997 at 15:29:03: Gerry ... excellent description of the "disjointed" Boston system. > the 01800s ...are the only cars on the line which not only have an > unobstructed railfan's window but also a seat next to it:-). I guess MBTA decided to follow my recommendation to have a railfan window/seat :)) When is the Bowdoin station expected to close as a result of the platform lengthening project? --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Boston subway lines
        Message Number: 758375
        Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:35 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Boston subway lines posted by Mark S Feinman on October 01, 1997 at 12:53:15: Bowdoin is only used weekdays daytime at present. I suppose it will close permanently when the first six car trains run - I don't know the exact schedule. Two or more years down the road is likely.

Thread title: Q Line R-40's,N Line R-40's and B line R-68a's (758290)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:42:30 1997, by Philip E. Dominguez

Subject: Q Line R-40's,N Line R-40's and B line R-68a's
Message Number: 758290
Posted by: Philip E. Dominguez
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:30 1997

The R-40/R-68 switchover has been taking place over the past 3 months. The new roster for the B/N/Q is: (B Line)-All R-68a's (N Line)R-68's,3 R-40's, R-32's (Q Line)1 R-68/R-68a and the rest R-40's The 2000's(R-68's) that were on the Q were re-assigned to the D and N line. About 2 weeks ago the Roster was (B line)-5 R-68a's,R-40's note: on weekend more R-68's than 40's (Q line)-some R-68's,some R-68a's (N Line)-some R-68's,some 32's, 3 R-40's Post your comments on the switch-over.
- Subject: Re: Q Line R-40's,N Line R-40's and B line R-68a's
- Message Number: 758293
- Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:32 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Q Line R-40's,N Line R-40's and B line R-68a's posted by Philip E. Dominguez on September 29, 1997 at 21:30:35: Well, I always liked to ride between cars, and the slat 40's are the BEST cars for this. I like them better, ugly or not, for the bench seats and 'vintage' appearance. -Hank
  - Subject: Re: Q Line R-40's,N Line R-40's and B line R-68a's
  - Message Number: 758297
  - Posted by: George
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:35 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Q Line R-40's,N Line R-40's and B line R-68a's posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 30, 1997 at 06:40:16: I never considered the R-40 Slant ugly. In fact as a child I had never seen them without the grafted bars and gates. So it always looked "better" with them. Without them as I had seen in pictures they look plain. It's akin to seeing someone with glasses all your life and then they get contacts. It takes some adjusting. Anyway I still find the R-40S more actractive than those oversized tuna cans they call subway car (R-44 and up). At least there was some concept of design instead of a glorified copy of the PATH Trains. Its a shame about placing all R-68's on the B-line since we will no longer get to look outside the front window thanks to the foolish idea of OPTO-ready full cabs. Contrary to what alot of people think the Westend Line is a more enjoyable ride than the Brighton Line. Just the ride between 36th St. and 9th Avenue makes it worthwill.
    - Subject: Re: Q Line R-40's,N Line R-40's and B line R-68a's
    - Message Number: 758304
    - Posted by: John
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:40 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Q Line R-40's,N Line R-40's and B line R-68a's posted by George on September 30, 1997 at 09:02:18: Guys, guys, guys, you're missing the bigger picture here. Nobody said the R-40s are being removed from service - they're just being relocated. You can still ride them on the Q, N, and the L. LIGHTEN UP!! Once they're removed from service, then we can whine, but for now, let's just be grateful for what we have! Truthfully, though, over the past few years, whenever anybody said "B Train", it often conjured up the image of an R-40 train, but now we can apply that same thought to the "Q Train".
      - Subject: Re: Q Line R-40's,N Line R-40's and B line R-68a's
      - Message Number: 758318
      - Posted by: Philip E.Dominguez
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Q Line R-40's,N Line R-40's and B line R-68a's posted by John on September 30, 1997 at 13:01:02: The R-40's life will be extended because of this move. why? Because they will not be running 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Also for that pacfic st.-36th. street ride take a N-line R-32 or R-40. -Phil
        
        Subject: Re: Q Line R-40's,N Line R-40's and B line R-68a's
        Message Number: 758398
        Posted by: Garfield
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:53 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Q Line R-40's,N Line R-40's and B line R-68a's posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 30, 1997 at 06:40:16: At the same time,I noticed that on some of the cars, the flooring was redone with a more darker coloring.....

Thread title: Re: orion buses roster info (758302)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:42:39 1997, by christopher

Subject: Re: orion buses roster info
Message Number: 758302
Posted by: christopher
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:39 1997

In Reply to: [6]orion buses posted by trolleybus on September 29, 1997 at 13:51:05: Do you have any roster info--numbers,model numbers,,serial numbers,,etc

Thread title: PATH Operations (758310)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:42:45 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: PATH Operations
Message Number: 758310
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:45 1997

Anyone have any idea why the Path conductors and train operators basically operate from the same car?? Why do the conductors not work from the middle of the train, as on the CTA??? Also, why did they remove the 'R' designation from those cars that had been rebuilt?? Prob. because it did not matter anymore??
- Subject: Re: PATH Operations
- Message Number: 758312
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:47 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]PATH Operations posted by Charles Fiori on September 30, 1997 at 15:19:31: In one situation, the PATH conductor needs to be in the first car. A Newark-World Trade Center train (8 cars) is too long for the eastbound platform at Exchange Place, so the conductor does not open the front car. From the first car, the "front half" of the train is 1 car, and the "back half" is 7 cars. At other stations it doesn't really matter but they stay near the front so they can see that train isn't up too far. If you look at the platforms near the end you'll see "7-7-7-7-7" or "8-8-8-8-8" etc. painted on the platform. All the PA-class cars are interoperable so the R designations were removed. The "R"s on the outside of the cars were recently covered up with PATH logo stickers but you can still see them inside.
  - Subject: Re: PATH Operations
  - Message Number: 758313
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:47 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: PATH Operations posted by David Pirmann on September 30, 1997 at 16:21:06: David, thank you. Worrying about that means I probably have way too much time on my hands!!! As you may notice, I am a regular visitor and enjoy the forum.
    - Subject: Re: PATH Operations
    - Message Number: 758416
    - Posted by: Joe M
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:06 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: PATH Operations posted by Charles Fiori on September 30, 1997 at 17:08:28: Cta is moving to one operator trains Orange line to midway opened that way other will follow soon if they have not allready The green line may have reopened as one operator service I think the red and blue will follow soon.

Thread title: Full Cabs (758314)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:42:48 1997, by Howard

Subject: Full Cabs
Message Number: 758314
Posted by: Howard
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:48 1997

Does anybody know why they cover the windows of full length cabs?
- Subject: Full Cabs
- Message Number: 758315
- Posted by: Howard
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:49 1997
  
  Does anybody know why they cover the windows of full length cabs?
  - Subject: Re: Full Cabs
  - Message Number: 758320
  - Posted by: Allan
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:52 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Full Cabs posted by Howard on September 30, 1997 at 17:29:15: On some outdoor lines (Brighton, Sea Beach etc) any bright sunlight coming in from behind the train operator position causes glare to refelect off the Train operaors vision glass panel making it impossible to see This is particularly true during the early morning hours when the sun is coming up and in that later hours when the sun is going down. I had a chance to ride the R-68's when they were forst put in passenger service on the D line. You had representatives from the TA and the builders as well and as soon as we hit an open area on the Brighton line - the glare appeared.
    - Subject: Re: Full Cabs
    - Message Number: 758328
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:58 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Full Cabs posted by Howard on September 30, 1997 at 17:29:15: The rule is that the 'crew door glass' on R-44 through R-68A cars can not be covered. The glass is polarized and only permits light to pass within 10 - 12 degrees of perpendicular. If installed properly, there is no glare in the cab.
      - Subject: Re: Full Cabs
      - Message Number: 758333
      - Posted by: The Truth
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Full Cabs posted by Howard on September 30, 1997 at 17:29:06: This way the train operator can smoke without being seen. If this wasn't so then the new polarized glass ones wouldn't be covered up.
        
        Subject: Re: Full Cabs
        Message Number: 758448
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Full Cabs posted by Allan on September 30, 1997 at 19:40:04: the real reason the glass is there is so that you can't see the motorman doing nefarious things such as smoking in the cab. -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: Full Cabs
        Message Number: 758456
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Full Cabs posted by Hank Eisenstein on October 05, 1997 at 05:32:43: Did you come up with that theory all by your self or did you have help?

Thread title: SIRTOA (758316)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:42:50 1997, by Howard

Subject: SIRTOA
Message Number: 758316
Posted by: Howard
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:50 1997

Does anybody know how to get to the abandoned SIRTOA Arlington station? Why are the tearing up the the old trackway? They are digging a deep ditch. Does anyone know what is going on there?
- Subject: SIRTOA
- Message Number: 758317
- Posted by: Howard
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:50 1997
  
  Does anybody know how to get to the abandoned SIRTOA Arlington station? Why are the tearing up the the old trackway? They are digging a deep ditch. Does anyone know what is going on there?
  - Subject: Re: SIRTOA
  - Message Number: 758342
  - Posted by: Bill
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:09 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]SIRTOA posted by Howard on September 30, 1997 at 18:03:47: They are suppose to be rebuilding that RR bridge to NJ and building a spur track to that new recycling plant in Travis. I don't know if that is related to the construction that's going on overthere now.
    - Subject: Re: SIRTOA
    - Message Number: 758447
    - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:30 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: SIRTOA posted by Bill on October 01, 1997 at 14:08:21: The spur already exists, but was just torn up so the tracks can be replaced. Any kind of digging on the Arlington site may be toxic waste removal, as the site was used as an illegal dump site during it's abandonment. The bridge is being rehabed, and there is no station at Arlington. The area is also not safe to be in alone with any kind of visable valuables. -Hank

Thread title: MNR order (758321)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:42:53 1997, by ~airplane

Subject: MNR order
Message Number: 758321
Posted by: ~airplane
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:53 1997

Metro-North placed an order today with Bombardier for 50 new cars. Details at [6]
- Subject: Re: MNR order
- Message Number: 758486
- Posted by: Andrew Huie
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:01 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]MNR order posted by ~airplane on September 30, 1997 at 20:53:36: Are these the cars that will finally replace the ACMU's that date back 35 years ago?
  - Subject: Re: MNR order
  - Message Number: 758973
  - Posted by: ~airplane
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:49 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: MNR order posted by Andrew Huie on October 07, 1997 at 03:08:49: One would hope so. I haven't heard anything about this order that wasn't said in the original blurb. I guess Metro-North orders aren't as high profile as NYCTA orders.

Thread title: Re: MNR order - With the URL this time (758322)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:42:54 1997, by ~airplane

Subject: Re: MNR order - With the URL this time
Message Number: 758322
Posted by: ~airplane
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:54 1997

In Reply to: [6]MNR order posted by ~airplane on September 30, 1997 at 20:53:36: The URL got cut off on the original message. Head to http://biz.yahoo.com/finance/97/09/30/y0001_y00_2.html .

Thread title: harlem in the 40's (758323)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:42:55 1997, by steven m. klein

Subject: harlem in the 40's
Message Number: 758323
Posted by: steven m. klein
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:55 1997

does anyone know if there were any elevated trains in harlem during the early to mid 1940's and were any close to harlem hospital? what subway train would one have taken to get from harlem hospital to long island? thanks in advance steven

Thread title: 25 cycle overhead??? (758325)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:42:56 1997, by Philip Nasadowski

Subject: 25 cycle overhead???
Message Number: 758325
Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:42:56 1997

Does Slamtrak, NJT or Septa still use 25 cycle 11kv overhead power anymore?? I'm asking this because I've heard that some trackage around Penn heading to New Haven might still be 25 cycle 11kv, but I thought all of the NEC was moved to 60 cycle in the 80's....
- Subject: Re: 25 cycle overhead???
- Message Number: 758343
- Posted by: Dan Lawrence
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:10 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]25 cycle overhead??? posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 30, 1997 at 22:32:27: The entire NE Corridor is 12KV 25HZ. The voltage was kicked up but not yhe frequency. Possibly the Boston electrification will be 25KV 60 HZ. The AEM's, E-60's and all MU's are built for automatic voltage changes. If the NEC ever goes 25KV the tunnels (Hudson and Baltimore) will be 13.KV because if possible arcing to car roofs at 25 KV.
  - Subject: Re: 25 cycle overhead???
  - Message Number: 758344
  - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:11 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: 25 cycle overhead??? posted by Dan Lawrence on October 01, 1997 at 14:44:07: That's weird. I know Metro North's stuff *IS* 60 cycle - because they changed it after the GG-1s were finally retired. I guess NJT is still 25. That would explain the *big* power gap on the way to the Hells Gate bridge (though that's really Amtrak there). Of course modern AC locos are rectifoers anyway, so they can care less. Since the NEC is 25c, I doubt it would happen, but I'd *love* (and I'm sure many others would) to see a GG-1 run. It's one of few things I've always wanted to see, but was born too late for...
    - Subject: Re: 25 cycle overhead???
    - Message Number: 758346
    - Posted by: John
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:12 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: 25 cycle overhead??? posted by Philip Nasadowski on October 01, 1997 at 14:59:50: There was a bunch of GG1s stored near the NEC tracks in Harrison about ten years ago, but they suddenly vanished . . .
      - Subject: Re: 25 cycle overhead???
      - Message Number: 758348
      - Posted by: David Pirmann
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: 25 cycle overhead??? posted by John on October 01, 1997 at 15:17:03: As you probably know, there's one GG1 in Hoboken, NJ (#4877). It's in the New Jersey Transit yard and clearly visible from Observer Hwy, which paralells the yard.
        
        Subject: Re: 25 cycle overhead???
        Message Number: 758352
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:17 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: 25 cycle overhead??? posted by Philip Nasadowski on October 01, 1997 at 14:59:50: Don't feel too bad about not seeing a GG-1 run. They were great to watch, but the noise and motion was not really an important part of the experience. How much a single unit could accomplish was amazing, but a still photo or movie (video?) conveys it well enough.
        
        Subject: Re: 25 cycle overhead???
        Message Number: 758357
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: 25 cycle overhead??? posted by David Pirmann on October 01, 1997 at 15:40:11: I've seen that one - from a distance though :( Even from the other end of a yard, it's an amazing site. I LOOKS bigger than a diesel of today, though I'm not sure it is. Does anyone know where/how I can see one up close?? I'd also love to see the innards of one, though I'v e never seen any photos or diagrams anywhere...
        
        Subject: Re: 25 cycle overhead???
        Message Number: 758360
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: 25 cycle overhead??? posted by Philip Nasadowski on October 01, 1997 at 20:38:04: If you want to travel a bit, there's one at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg, Lancaster County. --Dave
        
        Subject: Re: 25 cycle overhead???
        Message Number: 758363
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: 25 cycle overhead??? posted by Philip Nasadowski on October 01, 1997 at 14:59:50: Oops. I forgot that the former New Haven went to commercial 60HZ frequency when the old Cos Cob Powerhouse finally quit and the local power grid stopped supporting frequency changing equipment. The gap in the trolley at Hell Gate is to give the equipment (Meatballs and MU's) time to change internally at 60 MPH.
        
        Subject: Re: 25 cycle overhead???
        Message Number: 758369
        Posted by: John
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: 25 cycle overhead??? posted by David Pirmann on October 01, 1997 at 21:59:16: The one in Hoboken comes up to the platform for the Hoboken Festival (which is now in May - not September anymore).
        
        Subject: Re: 25 cycle overhead???
        Message Number: 758373
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: 25 cycle overhead??? posted by John on October 02, 1997 at 00:04:59: There is a GG1 that looms large in one of the barns at the Illinois Railway Museum, I believe.
        
        Subject: Re: 25 cycle overhead???
        Message Number: 758374
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: 25 cycle overhead??? posted by John on October 02, 1997 at 00:04:59: > The one in Hoboken comes up to the platform for the Hoboken Festival Really? I didn't see it there this year in May nor did I see it at the last one they had in September ('95)....
        
        Subject: Re: 25 cycle overhead???
        Message Number: 758411
        Posted by: Andrew Byler
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:02 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: 25 cycle overhead??? posted by David Pirmann on October 01, 1997 at 21:59:16: Actually, there are two in the Strasburg Railway Museum, near Lancaster. No. 4935 is there (the Amtrak unit repainted in Pennsy livery) and No. 4800 is there ("Old Rivets" to those in the know). There are periodic proposals to refurbish 4935 and let her rip - it requires putting in a new transformer - because the old ones all used PCB's (an alleged carcinogen). 4935 does have all the rest of her innards, however. Back in the early 80's, that whole string of GG1's which had been in dead storage in Harrison was pulled dead in tow to the Penn Coach Yard in Philly, where they sat for a while (presumably awaiting scrapping or sale). In the interim, my father and I availed ourselves of the general absence of Amtrak Police on one fine Saturday, and drove right up to the Amtrak MOW parking lot between Penn Coach Yard and Septa's Powelton Yard. There we abandoned our rubbered tired vehicle and clambered up into a *real* wheeled machine - one of the GG1's, which were surprisingly unlocked. The cab was comfortable, and reminiscent of a steam locomotive cab (because of the small side windows for windshields). A bit dirty, but nothing like the filth found in a steam engine from the coal dust. All in all a memorable experience. As a long time traveller in the NEC from my childhood in the 70's, I am fortunate enough to recall the GG1's from trips behind them headed to Florida. They were an amazing site to see, effortlessly pulling a string of 18 coaches and sleepers to the sunny south at up to 100 mph. All the wheels made them a bit like a centipede and gave the impression of enormous size and motion. Another interesting story was my trip down to DC in the Metroliner Parlor (not Club) Car - complete with my own oversized plush swivel chair and obliging waiter (who showed me the first $100 bill I'd ever seen - which he'd gotten as a tip from a Wall St. broker). Something we unfortunately will not see again. Its definitely fun being a king at age 6 on your birthday (many thanks to my Godmother for the trip). Andy

Thread title: JFK Airport Service (758331)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:43:01 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: JFK Airport Service
Message Number: 758331
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:01 1997

They're calling it light rail, but today's NY Daily News is reporting that an agreement has finally been reached to begin construction of the project. Messrs. Pataki and Giuliani, with plenty of ten-foot pole marks in each of them, made nice and signed on the dotted line.
- Subject: Re: JFK Airport Service
- Message Number: 758334
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:03 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]JFK Airport Service posted by Charles Fiori on October 01, 1997 at 08:08:46: The train to the plane part II?? Here's the article from [7] Today's New York Daily News. --Mark
  - Subject: Re: JFK Airport Service
  - Message Number: 758335
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:04 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]JFK Airport Service posted by Charles Fiori on October 01, 1997 at 08:08:46: The train to the plane part II?? Here's the article from [7] Today's New York Daily News. --Mark
    - Subject: Re: JFK Airport Service
    - Message Number: 758345
    - Posted by: John
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:12 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: JFK Airport Service posted by Mark S Feinman on October 01, 1997 at 12:35:26: Forbidden? Just what were you trying to put a link to, Mark? . . . . . . . .
      - Subject: Re: JFK Airport Service
      - Message Number: 758471
      - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:50 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: JFK Airport Service posted by John on October 01, 1997 at 15:13:38: You know, it's amazing what a missing quotation mark will do these days! I guess I offended the starting quotation mark by leaving off its mate or something :-) --Mark

Thread title: Re: JFK Airport Service (ignore my other posts) (758336)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:43:05 1997, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Re: JFK Airport Service (ignore my other posts)
Message Number: 758336
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:05 1997

In Reply to: [6]JFK Airport Service posted by Charles Fiori on October 01, 1997 at 08:08:46: I'm having a bad browser day ..... Here's the article from [7] Today's New York Daily News. --Mark
- Subject: Re: JFK Airport Service (ignore my other posts)
- Message Number: 758339
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:07 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: JFK Airport Service (ignore my other posts) posted by Mark S Feinman on October 01, 1997 at 12:37:38: " Change at Jamaica " The more things change, the more they remain the same!
  - Subject: Re: JFK Airport Service (ignore my other posts)
  - Message Number: 758340
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:08 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: JFK Airport Service (ignore my other posts) posted by Gary Jacobi on October 01, 1997 at 13:40:13: Changing at Jamaica shouldn't be a problem *if* the changes are the cross-platform types like the LIRR uses at rush hour. But if the changes aren't properly coordinated, at trips up and down the platform stairs are required, I suspect the service won't be as popular.
    - Subject: Re: JFK Airport Service (ignore my other posts)
    - Message Number: 758371
    - Posted by: Charles Fiori
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:31 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: JFK Airport Service (ignore my other posts) posted by Mark S Feinman on October 01, 1997 at 12:37:38: Nice effort again, Mark. How do you do that??? :-)

Thread title: NJT 1200-series Grumman Flxible 870s (758341)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:43:09 1997, by Michael S. Buglak

Subject: NJT 1200-series Grumman Flxible 870s
Message Number: 758341
Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:09 1997

Here in Philly there is an apartment complex (Park Towne Place) that runs a shuttle service to/from Center City, using a Grumman Flxible 870. Today I saw on the top rear of the bus the remmants of a number, "1202". I know that NJT has had similar 870s numbered in the 1200-series for many years. Does someone know if NJT has begun disposing of these Flxibles now that they have the NovaBUS RTSes? If so, are they being sold or scrapped? THe Park Towne Place bus does look like it could have been originally NJT-specifications. Any info on this bus would be much appreciated. Thanks! Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
- Subject: Re: NJT 1200-series Grumman Flxible 870s
- Message Number: 758353
- Posted by: Bobw
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:18 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]NJT 1200-series Grumman Flxible 870s posted by Michael S. Buglak on October 01, 1997 at 14:02:17: I've seen it, too. I would suspect it's ex-NJT. The other apartment complexes also have new buses, with one (a 35-ft RTS owned by South Jersey Coach) for 2601 Parkway, and the other (a 40-ft RTS, ex DART (Wilmington) 152, now Martz 11) for the Philadelphian. Another 30-ft Flxible, numbered in the 7300 series, ex NJT, from the '76 statewide order, was serving similar duty until recently.

Thread title: Brooklyn Grade Crossin Illimination on LIRR (758347)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:43:13 1997, by Pete Delgado

Subject: Brooklyn Grade Crossin Illimination on LIRR
Message Number: 758347
Posted by: Pete Delgado
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:13 1997

I am looking for a book published by a government commission around 1914-1918 that describes the grade crossing illiminations in Brooklyn on the Manhattan Beach & Bay Ridge divisions of the LIRR. I have seen the book in the Brooklyn Historical Society but I would like to fond a copy to purchase. Thanks, Pete

Thread title: Sirtoa (758349)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:43:15 1997, by H. Jonny

Subject: Sirtoa
Message Number: 758349
Posted by: H. Jonny
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:15 1997

Does anybody know why the North Shore branch and South Beach branch of SIRTOA has been abandoned? I noticed that the location of the North Shore branch is located in a desolated area away from any major location. Is this why it was closed down? Is there any passage I can use to get on to the trackway? By the way, where is the SIRTOA control towers located?
- Subject: Re: Sirtoa
- Message Number: 758446
- Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:30 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Sirtoa posted by H. Jonny on October 01, 1997 at 16:09:21: The South Beach and North Shore branches had passenger service eliminated in 1952 due to low ridership. The south Beach branch was also abandoned. The North Shore line was abandoned in 1991, but was recently purchased by the City of New York and NJDOT (in New Jersey) The North Shore is now being rehabbilitated from Cranford Junction in NJ to Arlington and Travis on SI. Travis recently had a paper recycling plant built, and the rails tot he plant area have been completely torn up, and are being replaced. The AK bridge over the Kill Van Kull is also being rehabbed. There are future plans for passenger service from Arlington to St. George. I would hardly call the are the line passes through 'desolate', but it is aan area populated with puplic housing projects and is saddled with a high crime rate. -Hank

Thread title: Yankee Stadium (758350)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:43:15 1997, by Ken Sofio

Subject: Yankee Stadium
Message Number: 758350
Posted by: Ken Sofio
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:15 1997

Due to a late afternoon meeting, I will be rushing up to Yankee Stadium tomorrow evening around 7pm from NJ. I figured my best bet would be to either take the Tunnel into the Port or the Path into Manhattan. Which is the quickest (use term loosely) subway line that can get me up to 161st street - the D, C or 4?
- Subject: Re: Yankee Stadium
- Message Number: 758351
- Posted by: subway-buff
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:16 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Yankee Stadium posted by Ken Sofio on October 01, 1997 at 16:53:46: Take the PATH 33rd street train. Follow the signs to the D train which will be on the inside or express track. The sign is an orange background with a white D in the circle. Get off the D at 161 Yankee Stadiuma nd follow the crowd to see the Yanks win.

Thread title: SEPTA Rapid Rail Transit (758354)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:43:18 1997, by Hesham R. Elbadrawi

Subject: SEPTA Rapid Rail Transit
Message Number: 758354
Posted by: Hesham R. Elbadrawi
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:18 1997

I wounder if any one have good pictures for the rapid rail transit in Philadelphia. I have to do a case study and I need about 25 pictures for the system. the pictures shoud include photos about the station, vehicles, maintenance facilities, control center, etc.
- Subject: Re: SEPTA Rapid Rail Transit
- Message Number: 758355
- Posted by: subway-buff
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:19 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]SEPTA Rapid Rail Transit posted by Hesham R. Elbadrawi on October 01, 1997 at 18:41:39: SEPTA has a web site at www.septa.com. From their home page follow the links to e-mail to J. Walls at SEPTA. I have sent numerous e-mails to Jack and foudn him to be quite responsive. I suggested he add a link to this site and he did. This site, NYCsubway.org has an extensive section on SEPTA in the Regional Rail Section. Some good locations to shoot photos are 30th street where you can see their storage yard, the curve near the Phiilly Zoo, Market East station, etc Good luck
  - Subject: Re: SEPTA Rapid Rail Transit
  - Message Number: 758387
  - Posted by: Bobw
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:44 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: SEPTA Rapid Rail Transit posted by subway-buff on October 01, 1997 at 19:38:05: I may have reported the SEPTA web address incorrectly in previous postings - it's actually SEPTA.org, not .com. Also, if you want rapid transit, you should go to 69th St, Frankford (either end of the Market-Frankford "blue" line) or Fern Rock (north end of the Broad St "orange" line), where the yards are located, if you want pictures. 30th St and the locations described by Subway Buff are actually commuter rail yards and tracks. 69th St is the legendary place to see light rail (both Norristown line 3rd rail and Media/Sharon Hill trolleys) as well as rapid. Elmwood Depot, the operations base for the subway surface "green" line trolleys, is located near the end of Rt 36. It is another good place to get pictures and is quite busy during daylight hours.
    - Subject: Re: SEPTA Rapid Rail Transit
    - Message Number: 758402
    - Posted by: ~airplane
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:56 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: SEPTA Rapid Rail Transit posted by Bobw on October 02, 1997 at 20:31:55: www.septa.org and www.septa.com appear to be the same site
      - Subject: Re: SEPTA Rapid Rail Transit
      - Message Number: 758443
      - Posted by: Bobw
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: SEPTA Rapid Rail Transit posted by ~airplane on October 03, 1997 at 16:39:00: I have heard this, but I've never been able to reach it using .com, only .org. Maybe it's a problem with my server?

Thread title: Origins of "Standard" Gauge (758359)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:43:22 1997, by Edward J. Braebec

Subject: Origins of "Standard" Gauge
Message Number: 758359
Posted by: Edward J. Braebec
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:22 1997

Ifound this on the web . I don't know if its true or not but it's humorous....... Standards Never Die "The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet, 8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? Because that's the way they built them in England, and the US railroads were built by English expatriates. Why did the English people build them like that? Because the first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they used. Why did "they" use that gauge then? Because the people who built the tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which used that wheel spacing. Okay! Why did the wagons use that odd wheel spacing? Well, if they tried to use any other spacing the wagons would break on some of the old, long distance roads, because that's the spacing of the old wheel ruts. So who built these old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in Europe were built by Imperial Rome for the benefit of their legions. The roads have been used ever since. And the ruts? The initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagons, were first made by Roman war chariots. Since the chariots were made for or by Imperial Rome they were all alike in the matter of wheel spacing. Thus, we have the answer to the original questions. The United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8.5 inches derives from the original specification for an Imperial Roman army war chariot. Specifications and Bureaucracies live forever. So, the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what horse's ass came up with it, you may be exactly right. Because the Imperial Roman chariots were made to be just wide enough to accommodate the back-ends of two war horses."
- Subject: Re: Origins of "Standard" Gauge
- Message Number: 758367
- Posted by: John
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:28 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Origins of "Standard" Gauge posted by Edward J. Braebec on October 01, 1997 at 21:17:40: So, let me get this straight - it's Imperial Rome that, in a way, had an influence on the Long Island Rail Road?
  - Subject: Re: Origins of "Standard" Gauge
  - Message Number: 758368
  - Posted by: John
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:29 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Origins of "Standard" Gauge posted by Edward J. Braebec on October 01, 1997 at 21:17:40: So, let me get this straight - it's Imperial Rome that, in a way, had an influence on the Long Island Rail Road, Metro-North, etc?
    - Subject: Re: Origins of "Standard" Gauge
    - Message Number: 758377
    - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:37 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Origins of "Standard" Gauge posted by John on October 01, 1997 at 23:57:55: Just be thankful Rome didn't use three horse chariots!

Thread title: NYCTA and DOT Bus roster updates (758361)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:43:24 1997, by Steve

Subject: NYCTA and DOT Bus roster updates
Message Number: 758361
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:24 1997

does anyone have an updated roster including fleet numbers dates mfgr model numbers for all buses delivered during 1996 and 1997 including the new Dot Buses now being delivered
- Subject: NYCTA and DOT Bus roster updates
- Message Number: 758362
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:24 1997
  
  does anyone have an updated roster including fleet numbers dates mfgr model numbers for all buses delivered during 1996 and 1997 including the new Dot Buses now being delivered
  - Subject: Re: NYCTA and DOT Bus roster updates
  - Message Number: 758376
  - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:36 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]NYCTA and DOT Bus roster updates posted by Steve on October 01, 1997 at 23:14:19: 1996 8750-9349 NovaBUS RTS II-06 1001-1070 New Flyer D-60 (Articulated) 631-680 BIA Orion V There are also 34 Orion V's powered by CNG that I believe were delivered during 1995, but I'm not sure as they may be 1996 buses. Their fleet numbers I'm also not sure about. I know the numbers are approx. 581-614 All of the other buses listed above are equipped with the new Detroit Diesel Series 50, 4 cylinder engine - which permit the buses to accelerate quicker and they seem to go right up hills with little or no strain. DOT - The Orions coming in now, the DOT companies last new buses were TMC RTS II-04 delivered in late 1993/early 1994. Most of these were diesel with the DDEC series 60, but some at Triboro Coach and all of those received at Command were CNG buses. Triboro Coach also received more Methanol buses. I don't know the exact beginning/ending of fleet numbers, but I can give the series for each company Queens Surface - TMC RTS II-06 275-399 (Approx.) DD Series 60 Green Bus Lines - TMC RTS II-06 1140-1179 (Approx) DD Series 60 Jamaica Buses - TMC RTS II-06 3830-3849 (Approx) DD Series 60 Command Bus Co - TMC RTS II-06 4901-4930 (Approx) CNG Triboro Coach Corp TMC RTS II-06 2800-2830 (Approx) DD Series 60 I believe Triboro Coach's CNG and Methanol RTS's are numbered in the 2100 and/or 2400 series. I appreciate any help and/or corrections with this info.

Thread title: Rush hour Westend Express (758364)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:43:26 1997, by Ray

Subject: Rush hour Westend Express
Message Number: 758364
Posted by: Ray
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:26 1997

I do not know whether this idea is good or not. This idea is to allow the B-Train to use the center track during rush hours for the express service along the Westend. Then the B-train would stop only on 9th Ave.,62nd Street.,Bay Parkway before it gets to Coney Island.
- Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
- Message Number: 758366
- Posted by: John
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:28 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Rush hour Westend Express posted by Ray on October 01, 1997 at 23:38:40: Not a bad idea. Any objections?
  - Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
  - Message Number: 758378
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:37 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by John on October 01, 1997 at 23:52:50: Not an objection really but a comment. Express service works when the accompanying local service is convenient, adequate and logical. I am assuming that for local service, you are thinking of the M line. The B is a 6th Ave, train and is heavily traveled. The M serves a completely different market. Whether it would be a suitable local suppliment to a B express would remain to be seen. Think about the Q/D A/C and F/G relationships. The B/M lines don't have the same type of operational relationship. It may work but would need study......................
    - Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
    - Message Number: 758388
    - Posted by: sam
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:45 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by Steve on October 02, 1997 at 10:17:29: what G/F relationship? If you see what's happening in Queens, G riders are getting royally screwed. Why? Because the MTA is incredibly stupid. That's why. If you look at recent demographic relationships, you'll notice a lot of people have moved to Greenpoint/Williamsburgh. People usually move into areas where there is abundant transit. Unfortunately, the MTA is too farsighted to see this and will strangle the ecnomics out of Greenpoint. The point is, express B service is nothing without good, solid local service, which I understand is not the case. Therefore, be forewarned!!!!!!
      - Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
      - Message Number: 758390
      - Posted by: Peter Rosa
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:47 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by sam on October 03, 1997 at 06:24:50: If you think subway service in Williamsburgh is bad now, just wait until the J/M/Z tracks over the Williamsburgh Bridge are closed for maintenance :-o MTA foresight, once again!
        
        Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
        Message Number: 758401
        Posted by: John
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:55 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by sam on October 03, 1997 at 06:24:50: How about a split B service? The local Bs could be relabled as BL, and the express Bs as BX.
        
        Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
        Message Number: 758415
        Posted by: Koi
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by John on October 03, 1997 at 15:35:05: How about having a Westend/Culver line express combo: have a new service (call it, say, W) that would start at 9th Av. on the West End line and go express as previously mentioned to Coney Island then continue on with stops at West 8th St., Av. X, Kings Highway, 18th Av., and Church Av. Koi
        
        Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
        Message Number: 758417
        Posted by: Michael Klufas
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:07 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by sam on October 03, 1997 at 06:24:50: If the MTA did the right thing with the F/G setup in Brooklyn, here is what it would do: --allow the F's to run express to Church Avenue weekdays (6a-9p) --extend the F express as in the prevailing direction from Church to Kings Highway (to Manhattan AM, from Manhattan PM) --run the G as a local service to either Kings Highway or Church Avenue, depending on the time of day
        
        Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
        Message Number: 758418
        Posted by: Sam
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by Peter Rosa on October 03, 1997 at 09:22:47: I agree with everyone's comments. Here's what we should do with the G: G will run to continental avenue all times, period, - or- A tunnel with moving walkways or new station will be built to allow transfers between the G and 7 at 21/Van Alst to 7 stops at either Hunters Point (difficult) or Vernon Jackson. 21st/Van Alst is underutilized. This will help spur LIC's economics. Then you could cut the G off at Court Square without damaging service as much as it is now. On the other end of the G - it goes to Church Ave. all times. If the MTA is worried about service and track clearance for construction, do the following at night: E service remains local to Parsons/Archer. F remains local to 179th street, but runs on the Broadway line to Coney Island. Or run a split E service that goes either to the Trade Center or continues on the A line to Jay Street where it then goes to Coney Island on the F line. The trick here is not to choke off any economic gains neighborhoods like Greenpoint, Williamsburgh and LIC have made, coming back from the dead. Shades of Robert Moses!!
        
        Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
        Message Number: 758421
        Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Rush hour Westend Express posted by Ray on October 01, 1997 at 23:38:40: A number of lines have 3-track/station set-ups for potential peak direction express service. Some are used (e.g., D/C, 7, J/Z/M) while some aren't (e.g., 4, F and B/M). What are the costs & patronage on each line? Can the proposed line suppport the improvement? West End express service sounds good, but what would be the impact on the the essentially-overlapping N line? Would its service need to be re- duced or eliminated? I think there once was peak F express service to Kings Hwy., where those trains turned around, while F local's con- tinued to Coney Is. But it was dropped (why?). Would a combination of better B/M & F service threaten the nearby N's existence? Should it?
        
        Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
        Message Number: 758422
        Posted by: David L.
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by Michael Klufas on October 03, 1997 at 23:25:33: Before you can extend the G train as a local on the Culver line, the G train has to run more often. Right now the G is running on a very very very stingy schedule- every 10-12 minutes during the AM and PM rush, and running evury 20 minutes during the midday.
        
        Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
        Message Number: 758423
        Posted by: David L.
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:12 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by Sam on October 04, 1997 at 02:42:03: Then what train will serve the 2nd Ave, Delancey Street, East Broadway, and York Street Stations?
        
        Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
        Message Number: 758449
        Posted by: Mike K
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:32 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by David L. on October 04, 1997 at 12:41:48: Not according to the official sched. If you look at it, they say it runs every 9-12 minutes (see the MTA-subway homepage).
        
        Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
        Message Number: 758452
        Posted by: David L.
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:34 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by Mike K on October 05, 1997 at 10:22:51: You are correct- that is what the schedule says, but being a G train passenger myself, I know for a fact that the G train does not follow that schedule between 3-4 PM. Especially at 3:00 when students from Brooklyn Tech use the Fulton St Station. For twenty minutes, a continuous flow of students fill up the platform until finally it is impossible to walk to the other end of the platform. With students literally standing on the edge of the platform, one little brawl between a few students can knock about a dozen people on to the tracks. Luckily that hasn't happen yet but it's an accident waiting to happen. Then the train finally arrives at 3:20 (everytime the train enters the station-the train operator has to honk a few times to warn the people on the edge of the platform. And this goes happens on a daily basis. Then there ae times when I have to leave the school later.....the train still takes 20 minutes to arrive. Well that is my side of the story, :-)
        
        Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
        Message Number: 758455
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by sam on October 03, 1997 at 06:24:50: I expected to be called to task for my theory about the logical relationship between Express & Local service. What I was trying to convey is simply that the F train meets the G at the Brooklyn terminal and at the Queesn terminal. As for the demographics, you are right BUT two things you might not be aware of: First - The G train service gets priority over the E, F or the R. If there is a car shortage, the G line would be the last to have a train dropped. Second - I've been riding the G line since 1963 when it was the GG local. I woud ride to and from Brooklyn Tech every day and even back then, when 7 car R-9s were the rule, there were never enough trains on the line.
        
        Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
        Message Number: 758466
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:46 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by David L. on October 05, 1997 at 14:00:30: Do your body a DOUBLE favor, and walk back to Hoyt-Schermrerhorn where the platform is wide, and the punks are too lazy or stupid to walk to.
        
        Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
        Message Number: 758468
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:47 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by Koi on October 03, 1997 at 22:20:58: ... but since most people are commuting to and from Manhattan, how would this help out commuters? Would commuters actually take an express in the reverse direction to swing around down Culver to Manhattan?? Now from a railfan perspective .... :-) --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
        Message Number: 758469
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:48 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by David L. on October 04, 1997 at 12:50:57: ... how about the Q train via the proposed Dekalb-Rutgers connection? --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
        Message Number: 758474
        Posted by: David L.
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by Gary Jacobi on October 06, 1997 at 11:29:13: I hope that you were not making an inuendo that students of Brooklyn Tech are punks. I just happen to be a student attending Tech.
        
        Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
        Message Number: 758479
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:56 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by Gary Jacobi on October 06, 1997 at 11:29:13: Let me also say that I hope that you are not referring to Brooklyn Tech students as stupid punks. Brooklyn Tech is one of the NYC special High Schools and academically is known nationwide. Tech students opt to attend a school with a rigorous academic program and must pass an admissions test in order to be considered for admission. Brooklyn Tech students are definitely NOT stupid punks. If this is what you meant to say, I think you owe the 6,000 current students and the 10s of thousands of former students an apology. Steve Kreisler Class of 67
        
        Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
        Message Number: 758491
        Posted by: Ed Sachs
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by Mark S Feinman on October 06, 1997 at 12:33:23: Reminds me of a short lived 'NX' express service (circa 1967 or 1968) which operated basically over the 'N' route from 57th St, via the south tracks of the Manhattan Bridge (yes, they really did carry trains at one time!), to Brighton Beach, express in Brooklyn stopping only at Pacific St., 36 St., 59 St., Coney Island, W. 8th, Ocean Pky., and Brighton Beach. (actually used the Sea Beach Line express tracks!)
        
        Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
        Message Number: 758500
        Posted by: David L.
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:12 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by Steve on October 05, 1997 at 18:11:45: Speaking of the G Train, how many R-32's are assigned to that line. In recent weeks, I've been on quite a few R-32's running on the G-line.
        
        Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
        Message Number: 758510
        Posted by: David Lee
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by David L. on October 06, 1997 at 20:44:28: Two more things. The entrance to the Fulton St station and Brooklyn Tech are on the same block, so it makes more sense to use the Fulton St Station rather than walk over a few blocks to Hoyt Schernerhorn. Also, the crowded platfrom I was talking about was the Queens-bound platform. Walking to Hoyt -Schermerhorn would make some sense if you were a south-bound passenger transfering there for the A or C. But in this case- it's students heading back into Queens. In addition to what Steve has to say- Brooklyn Tech students are not stupid or lazy punks. Brooklyn Tech has graduated more scientists and engineers than any other high schools in this nation- we are not stupid. many of my classmates have 10 classes from 8:00-3:40 without a lunch period- we are not lazy.
        
        Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
        Message Number: 758522
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by Ed Sachs on October 07, 1997 at 10:16:01: Yes, as I answered this thread, I was thinking about the NX. Woulda been a nice run to watch from the railfan window. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Rush hour Westend Express
        Message Number: 758966
        Posted by: Ed Sachs
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by Mark S Feinman on October 08, 1997 at 14:12:49: Reaching back even further into the past -- I believe that in the 1930's and 1940's, there was a "Summer Weekend" special service from Chambers St. to Franklin Ave. via the Sea Beach and Brighton lines, which also used the Sea Beach line express tracks. I'm not sure if it used the Manhattan Bridge or Montague St. Tunnel. It was survived into the late 50's or early 60's by "Summer Weekend" service from Franklin Ave. to Coney Island (or maybe sometimes just to Brighton Beach in the early 60's?).

Thread title: Speaking of electrification..(was New Jersey ..... (758379)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:43:38 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: Speaking of electrification..(was New Jersey .....
Message Number: 758379
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:38 1997

In Reply to: [5]NJ Transit Electrification posted by Ted on September 28, 1997 at 15:40:43: Speakinf of electrifing lines; the last couple of times that I rode the MN Hudson Line, I've noticed that the new ties they've been putting in are a little long on the side. Is there by some chance some long-range plan to third rail the Hudson line north to Poughkleepsie??? It sure looks like it, although why they woul do it is a good question...
- Subject: Re: Speaking of electrification..(was New Jersey .....
- Message Number: 758458
- Posted by: ~airplane
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:39 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Speaking of electrification..(was New Jersey ..... posted by Lou from Middletown on October 02, 1997 at 10:36:25: Maybe it was cheaper for the MTA to buy a large amount of long ties than to buy some long and some short, or maybe it's more economical to electrify the upper Hudson line than to preserve the transfer between electric and diesel equipment at Croton-Harmon.

Thread title: Satern Island (758380)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:43:39 1997, by Jonny H.T.

Subject: Satern Island
Message Number: 758380
Posted by: Jonny H.T.
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:39 1997

What is the difference between SIRR R-48 railroad cars and regular NYC subway R-48 railroad cars? What extra equipment do they have installed?
- Subject: Re: Satern Island
- Message Number: 758385
- Posted by: johnny ht
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:43 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Satern Island posted by Jonny H.T. on October 02, 1997 at 11:13:57: where is this place. i never heard of it.do you mean staten island.
  - Subject: Re: Satern Island
  - Message Number: 758394
  - Posted by: Lou
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:50 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Satern Island posted by Jonny H.T. on October 02, 1997 at 11:13:57: If you are refering to STATEN ISLAND the forgotten boro of New York City (Richmond County) Staten Island Railway they use modified NYC Subway cars (R44's). Some mods I know of are that they can go backwards without a yard key and go backwards pretty fast . They don't have trippers for the trip stops on the subway signals and they have a tiny or skinny crew door into the cab.
    - Subject: Re: Satern Island
    - Message Number: 758445
    - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:29 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Satern Island posted by Lou on October 03, 1997 at 09:56:24: The small crew door is common on R-44. The cars are not married, and all cars have air compressors/motor generators. The B cars used to have hostler controls, but I believe they were removed during rebuild. Also, althought the cars operate on a rail line that is still classified a common carrier, the cars are exempt from FRA locomotive inspections (blue cards) because the line is not connected to any other line. I doubt that the cars could currently pass an FRA inspection, anyway. -Hank

Thread title: SIRR (758381)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:43:40 1997, by Jhonny H.T.

Subject: SIRR
Message Number: 758381
Posted by: Jhonny H.T.
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:40 1997

Correction, it is R-44 not R-48. Staten Island Railroad. Why did they stop fare collection on those trains, won't the city lose money?
- Subject: Re: SIRR
- Message Number: 758393
- Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:49 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]SIRR posted by Jhonny H.T. on October 02, 1997 at 11:20:40: Most travel on SIRR starts or ends in St. George where they collect the money. The people who detrain before might be such a slight number the lost would not be so big a lost of money. Since the metrocard is now in use with S.I. buses the only way for free transfers is swiping at St. George. Maybe this played a factor in the decision.
  - Subject: Re: SIRR
  - Message Number: 758444
  - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:28 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: SIRR posted by Lou from Brooklyn on October 03, 1997 at 09:52:06: They were actually losing money collecting fares on the train. Before the on-board collection was eliminated, they used 3-person train crews (Engineer, Conductor, Trainman/Conductor) With the elimination of the fare between stations, they cut the crew size down to 2. Also, weekend trains are back to two-cars, and it is believed that they may institute OPTO on the trains late nights and weekends, with only one car open. A disadvantage of this new system is that vandalism of the trains has increased. Without someone walking through the train every few minutes, teenagers take advantage.

Thread title: Re: NYCTA and DOT Bus roster updates-*CORRECTION* (758382)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:43:40 1997, by Wayne Johnson

Subject: Re: NYCTA and DOT Bus roster updates-*CORRECTION*
Message Number: 758382
Posted by: Wayne Johnson
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:40 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: NYCTA and DOT Bus roster updates posted by Wayne Johnson on October 02, 1997 at 09:38:16: I incorrectly listed the buses' engines as the Detroit Diesel Series 60 which does exist, but it's a 6 cylinder egine that's used in over-the-road coaches. The correct Detroit Diesel engine for transit buses is the Series 50, which is essentially a 4 cylinder version of the Series 60.

Thread title: LI Bus Roster (758384)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:43:42 1997, by Steve

Subject: LI Bus Roster
Message Number: 758384
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:42 1997

requesting a roster from LI Bus fleet numbers date mfgr Garage assignment Model number and serial number

Thread title: Runaway NYCTA bus (758391)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:43:47 1997, by Wayne Johnson

Subject: Runaway NYCTA bus
Message Number: 758391
Posted by: Wayne Johnson
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:47 1997

Anyone get the fleet number of the runaway TA bus on Fifth Avenue in midtown yesterday morning. Since it was a M4 I know it's assigned to Manhattanville Depot.

Thread title: Re: Runaway NYCTA bus/ I found it! (758392)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:43:48 1997, by Wayne Johnson

Subject: Re: Runaway NYCTA bus/ I found it!
Message Number: 758392
Posted by: Wayne Johnson
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:48 1997

In Reply to: [5]Runaway NYCTA bus posted by Wayne Johnson on October 03, 1997 at 09:31:17: I checked the Daily News website and they pictures of it. It's a 1990 TMC RTS II-06 #8346.

Thread title: New Orions, Part Deux (758395)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:43:50 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: New Orions, Part Deux
Message Number: 758395
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:50 1997

Moving over the Dow Jones news wire this morning at 11:24ET: "Western Star Trucks Holdings Ltd.'s (WSH) Orion Bus Industries sold 10 40-foot Hybrid Electric Buses to the Metropolitan Transportation Authority in New York for $5.7 million. "In a press release Friday, Western said the new technology was developed by Orion and Lockheed Martin Control Systems, Johnston, N.Y. a unit of Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT) "Western Star makes heavy duty trucks.
- Subject: Re: New Orions, Part Deux
- Message Number: 758442
- Posted by: Joe-M
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:27 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]New Orions, Part Deux posted by Charles Fiori on October 03, 1997 at 11:35:09: I saw the demo bus in Chicago last week but did not get to ride it. Hybrid buses I believe are the future bus. The best of electric performance and lack of infrastucture with overhead wire. I will be interested to see how they do in service.
  - Subject: Re: New Orions, Part Deux
  - Message Number: 758457
  - Posted by: BRRRyan LAAAynnne
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:38 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]New Orions, Part Deux posted by Charles Fiori on October 03, 1997 at 11:35:09: is that the one with 3 doors on the side and double sets of wheels in the back?
    - Subject: Re: New Orions, Part Deux
    - Message Number: 758959
    - Posted by: Brent Foster
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:39 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]New Orions, Part Deux posted by Charles Fiori on October 03, 1997 at 11:35:09: Do you know wether those buses are manufactured in Canada at Ontario Bus Industries'(Orion) plant in Missassauga, Ontario, or if they're made in an American factory?
      - Subject: Re: New Orions, Part Deux
      - Message Number: 758970
      - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:47 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: New Orions, Part Deux posted by Brent Foster on October 09, 1997 at 17:39:16: I'm not sure but, I think OBI has a plant in upstate New York.
        
        Subject: Re: New Orions, Part Deux
        Message Number: 758987
        Posted by: Bobw
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: New Orions, Part Deux posted by Wayne Johnson on October 10, 1997 at 15:01:10: TMC, Orion's American cousin, had a plant in Oriskany, NY, near Albany I believe. It was still constructing Orions for American use to comply with buy American restrictions up thru the early 90's. It could still be active today as an Orion plant.
        
        Subject: Re: New Orions, Part Deux
        Message Number: 759024
        Posted by: hank eisenstein
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: New Orions, Part Deux posted by Bobw on October 11, 1997 at 17:43:34: The Orion division plant in New York is Bus Idusties of America, not TMC. Part of the original deal to provide buses for NYCTA was to build them in the state. -Hank

Thread title: Re: Runaway NYCTA (MaBSTOA?) bus (758396)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:43:51 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Re: Runaway NYCTA (MaBSTOA?) bus
Message Number: 758396
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:51 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: Runaway NYCTA bus/ I found it! posted by Wayne Johnson on October 03, 1997 at 09:34:26: Wayne, you must let the congregation know why the fleet number on a bus which killed someone and injured others and by the grace of God did not cause more damage and casualties, is so important to you.
- Subject: Re: Runaway NYCTA (MaBSTOA?) bus
- Message Number: 758399
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:53 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Runaway NYCTA (MaBSTOA?) bus posted by Charles Fiori on October 03, 1997 at 13:02:10: Well, Charles Contrary to what you may think, I realize that this was a very unfortunate incident and my heart goes out the victims. This must be an assumption because I never said the fleet number was "so important". Please don't make any assumptions or judgements because the fleet number is not "so important" to me, but it's merely curiosity and I'm sure many of the "congregation" members know this. If you check the archives you will find messages where someone has inquired about the fleet number(s) and/or model of a particular subway car(s) that was involved in an accident. No one found this sort of thing to be a problem then and I can't see why it may be a now. I never meant to offend anyone or minimize this tragic accident, but I think you're blowing this out of proportion. And, yes it was a MaBSTOA bus, but MaBSTOA is only used internally these days.
  - Subject: Re: Runaway NYCTA (MaBSTOA?) bus
  - Message Number: 758400
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:54 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Runaway NYCTA (MaBSTOA?) bus posted by Wayne Johnson on October 03, 1997 at 15:02:26: Point well taken, Wayne. Thanks for the reply. Like you, I appreciate the opportunity this forum gives us for exchanges of ideas.

Thread title: Why not all over head? (758403)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:43:56 1997, by BJ

Subject: Why not all over head?
Message Number: 758403
Posted by: BJ
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:56 1997

Why aren't some of the transit systems that use third rail and overhead wires, just use over-head wires the whole way? It would seem more safe. You hear about all the time that people are waiting for subway or elevated trains and fall by mistake and get electrecuted and killed. The stupidest thing is that the CTA still runs the Douglas and Ravenswood lines with a third rail and street crossings. They should make them put catenary wires up for the last part of the route and make them equip the trains with the equipment!
- Subject: Re: Why not all over head?
- Message Number: 758404
- Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:57 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Why not all over head? posted by BJ on October 03, 1997 at 17:11:30: Actually, there are some good reasons why everything is not all overhead. Mostly historical, but realize too that at 600 - 750 VDC, the currents needed to move a train are *very* heavy. At those voltages, overhead isn't very practical. Overhead also fouls up sometimes, causeing a "pulldown". This disrupts service. To make overhead practical, you need *high* voltage, around 15k. Most electrifications that are third rail (i.e the subway and LIRR) were done before A.C. traction was even prctical. New Haven was the first in 1908, and they had *big* problems with it at first. Also realize that in tunnels, overhead raises clearences, and you still can't go too high with the voltage anyway. Also realize that changeing electric systems is *very* expensive.
  - Subject: Re: Why not all over head?
  - Message Number: 758407
  - Posted by: Joe M
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:59 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Why not all over head? posted by Philip Nasadowski on October 03, 1997 at 18:09:36: 3rd rail is more durable too needs less maint. Overhead is better where you can't contol access and need to keep people away like running at grade.
    - Subject: Re: Why not all over head?
    - Message Number: 758497
    - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:10 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Why not all over head? posted by Philip Nasadowski on October 03, 1997 at 18:09:36: Hate to disagree with you, Phil, but our Mickey Mouse light rail here in Sacramento, built in 1987, runs on 1500V DC overhead, as do many others around the country. The "old rules" about AC, DC and Voltage have been somewhat overridden by Solid State technology.
      - Subject: Re: Why not all over head?
      - Message Number: 758511
      - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Why not all over head? posted by Gary Jacobi on October 07, 1997 at 16:41:22: I believe that ALL new Light Rail systems are 750 DC , not 1500. "Legacy" systems (Boston, Philadelphia, Cleveland, San Francisco, Pittsburgh, etc.) are all 600 volts. Even Baltimore, with our AC motored LRV's, takes commercial AC (at 4400 volts), convers it to 750 DC, which is then converted (on the car) to variable frequency AC at 750 volts for the brushless AC motors. Talk about solid state technology. Same voltage "rules" apply to subway systems, too - if it's been there "forever", it's 600, if it's new it's 750. 1500 volt Dc was usually interurban voltage / IC MU cars / South Shore.
        
        Subject: Re: Why not all over head?
        Message Number: 758516
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Why not all over head? posted by Dan Lawrence on October 07, 1997 at 23:22:15: Yes, I am wrong again! I went so far as to call the Siemens-Duwag car building facility here in Sacramento, and they agreed with 750VDC. This really made me worry about my powers of memory, so I pulled out the Light Rail EIS from our files, and they had indeed proposed 1500VDC in 1983, but presumably saner heads prevailed at design time. ( THEY ALSO HAD PROPOSED SINGLE-ENDED CARS )

Thread title: Armondo Duran-Jay St. (758406)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:43:59 1997, by Ms. Duran

Subject: Armondo Duran-Jay St.
Message Number: 758406
Posted by: Ms. Duran
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:43:59 1997

To All, My Dad worked for the MTA on Jay St.He was a track walker. I wish to thank all of you who sent their condolences to his family,when he passed on in 1996. Ms. Duran

Thread title: Front signs-B Division (758408)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:44:00 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Front signs-B Division
Message Number: 758408
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:00 1997

The signs now appearing on slant 40s, 42s, etc., which scroll from left to right as opposed to top-to-bottom read as follows: JFK [lt. bl.]; A, C, H, E [dk. bl. circle]; F [orange cir.]; G [lime cir.]; R, S [yellow cir.]; W [yellow diamond]; N, B, D, Q [yellow cir.]; D, Q, B [orange cir]; K [dk bl. cir.]; S, V [orange cir.]; M [brown cir.]; R [brown di.amond]; J, Z [brown circle]; L, S [lt. grey cir.];

Thread title: Front signs-B Division (Corrected at end) (758409)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:44:01 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Front signs-B Division (Corrected at end)
Message Number: 758409
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:01 1997

The signs now appearing on slant 40s, 42s, etc., which scroll from left to right as opposed to top-to-bottom read as follows: JFK [lt. bl.]; A, C, H, E [dk. bl. circle]; F [orange cir.]; G [lime cir.]; R, S [yellow cir.]; W [yellow diamond]; N, B, D, Q [yellow cir.]; D, Q, B [orange cir]; K [dk bl. cir.]; S, V [orange cir.]; M [brown cir.]; R [brown di.amond]; J, Z [brown circle]; L, S [lt. grey cir.]; Not Special; Shuttle in Service Please msj if you care on other signs, subway or bus. I have a large collection and can prob. help.
- Subject: Re: Front signs-B Division (Corrected at end)
- Message Number: 758495
- Posted by: Lou from Middletown
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:08 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Front signs-B Division (Corrected at end) posted by Charles Fiori on October 03, 1997 at 19:48:47: Just out of curiosity-"W"???!!!??"v"???!!?? or was the NYCTA just planning ahead?

Thread title: R-68a's Flooring (758410)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:44:02 1997, by Steve

Subject: R-68a's Flooring
Message Number: 758410
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:02 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Q Line R-40's,N Line R-40's and B line R-68a's posted by Garfield on October 03, 1997 at 14:19:44: There were numerous problems withthe flooring on the R-68As dating back to their delivery. Kawasaki assumed the responsibility and repaired the flooring at Concourse yard and later in Coney Island. The repairs were done in 4 stages. The worst of the floors were totally replaced. The black speckled flooring is the same as the R-110 flooring. Kawasaki did the installation but the TA paid for the flooring upgrade.

Thread title: Re: NJ Transit Electrification (I did the preliminaries) (758412)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:44:03 1997, by Andrew Byler

Subject: Re: NJ Transit Electrification (I did the preliminaries)
Message Number: 758412
Posted by: Andrew Byler
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:03 1997

In Reply to: [6]NJ Transit Electrification posted by Ted on September 28, 1997 at 15:40:43: In the summer of 1995, while working for LTK Engineering of Blue Bell, PA, I did the preliminary power needs studies for electrifying all of the New Jersey Transit lines which are currently diesel, plus the to be reactivated ex-NYC West Shore line to Haverstraw (neither Newburgh and Kingston are in the intitial plans for this line) and NYS&W line to Butler, and excluding the too be abandoned Meadowlands - Montclair portion of the Boonton line. This involved entering in the track (grade, curvature, superelvation, etc.) and station data (location, dwell time, load factor, etc.) for the lines at hundredths of a mile accuracy and running it through a product of the Carnegie Mellon Railway Research Lab (the remnant of the AAR Rail Research Center there in the 70's) called the Train Performance Simulator. In this case, I tested it with 6 car trains of Silverliners operating at peak load over the entire line length. The point of the initial study was threefold: 1) to quantify time savings in operation, 2) to optimize substation location, and 3) to point out potential trouble spots. When I left to return to school in late August, the initial part of the study was essentially complete, and more precise work was to continue. I have no idea of the outcome, but my supervicor, Dr. Tristan Kneschke, might be willing to answer questions if you take the time to track him down. The general feeling I got was that the following projects were likely to occur eventually (meaning within the next 20 years) and in the order listed - Long Branch to Bay Head, Hunter to Raritan and High Bridge (both in conjunction with a third Hudson River tube to accomodate additional traffic into Penn Station), Great Neck to Dover and Hackettstown (the Montclair to Great Neck portion is guaranteed as part of the Montclair connection), Hoboken to Suffern. The other lines (including Atlantic City) are a much lower priority. Not in the study (very telling from my point of view) were the on again off again proposals concerning service on the Jamesburg Branch (which once was electrified Perth Amboy to Monmouth Jct.), Bound Brook - West Trenton, High Bridge - Lehigh Valley, Dover - E. Stroudsburg (Lackawanna cut-off), Winslow Jct. - Cape May, or Trenton - Camden - Millville (Camden - Millville was third rail until 1949). Also, Suffern - Port Jervis was not deemed worthy of study (undoubtedly because it is a Metro-North affair - although the north end of the Pascack Valley and West Shore were included, and are also MNR routes - go figure). I can only surmise that this means these projects are on the back-back burners, and that the only expansion forseen in the near future is the West Shore and NYS&W lines. So there *are* plans afoot. As to when exactly - who knows! Andy

Thread title: BMT DeKalb. Ave. Station-Reconstruction Strategy (758420)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:44:10 1997, by Mike Rothenberg

Subject: BMT DeKalb. Ave. Station-Reconstruction Strategy
Message Number: 758420
Posted by: Mike Rothenberg
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:10 1997

Hi, I'm trying to locate documents and/or people familiar with the BMT DeKalb Ave. station reconstruction project in the 1950's. The project involved moving the switch location from one end of the plat- forms to the other, lengthening the platforms and adding tracks that connected the Brighton line to the platform's outer tracks in addi- tion to the inner track connections. I'm specifically interested in learning the construction and final tie-in strategy that allowed train operations on the Brighton and 4th Ave. lines to go unimpeded, most of the time while, for example, new tunnel wall openings for the changed switches and new track connections were made.
- Subject: Re: BMT DeKalb. Ave. Station-Reconstruction Strategy
- Message Number: 758465
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:45 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]BMT DeKalb. Ave. Station-Reconstruction Strategy posted by Mike Rothenberg on October 04, 1997 at 11:39:38: As usual, I don't have much to offer from my memory of attending High School in the area at the time of the completion of the DeKalb Ave upgrade since I rode the IND, not the BMT, but I do recall that the schedules and routings were substantially affected, and went back to "normal" only after construction was completed. So, the work was NOT accomplished without a fuss.

Thread title: PRR signals (758424)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:44:13 1997, by Benny C.

Subject: PRR signals
Message Number: 758424
Posted by: Benny C.
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:13 1997

Why is the MTA changing the original PRR signals on the SIRR line all the way to St. George? What is wrong with those signal lights? Shouldn't the MTA just keep them and save the money for other things?
- Subject: Re: PRR signals
- Message Number: 758427
- Posted by: Dan Lawrence
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:15 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]PRR signals posted by Benny C. on October 04, 1997 at 14:11:30: The signals on the SIRR line are not PRR, but standard B&O color position light signals.(The B&O controlled the SIRT for many years.) The MTA is changing them because today (1997) they are non-standard with what the MTA has and is maintaining. Also the B&O signal system used DC track circuits, which is not standard any more and impossible to get parts for. The confusion with "PRR" signals may have resulted in the AMTRAK program to conver the former position light signals in the NE Corridor giving the PRR position light signals color lenses and removing the cent lamps in the heads. To a die-hard Pennsy fan the sight of "B&O" signals in the Corridor is somewhat diisquieting.

Thread title: new york westchester and boston railroad (758426)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:44:14 1997, by sean o'shea

Subject: new york westchester and boston railroad
Message Number: 758426
Posted by: sean o'shea
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:14 1997

I have found some old pieces of this defunct railroad in Pelham and New Rochelle after reading Roger Arcara's book 'When the Westchester was new'. Are there any web sites devoted to this fascinating old railroad? Also, is the part of NYW&B south of 180th street still in place??? Thanks for any help!
- Subject: Re: new york westchester and boston railroad
- Message Number: 758428
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:16 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]new york westchester and boston railroad posted by sean o'shea on October 04, 1997 at 16:57:32: The Arcara book is the definitive source about the NYW&B. I haven't seen a whole lot on the web about it. I have a couple of NYW&B photos that I haven't done much with mostly due to a lack of information (the Arcara book not withstanding). If you want to look at them [7]here they are. --Dave
  - Subject: Re: new york westchester and boston railroad
  - Message Number: 758464
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:44 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]new york westchester and boston railroad posted by sean o'shea on October 04, 1997 at 16:57:32: www.columbia.edu/~brennan/rails/disused/bronx.html has a section dealing with the visible remains of this line in the Bronx.
    - Subject: Re: new york westchester and boston railroad
    - Message Number: 758467
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:47 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]new york westchester and boston railroad posted by sean o'shea on October 04, 1997 at 16:57:32: Yes, the station is there, in plain sight of the 2/5 line's E 180th St stop. Also, if you're in the area, you should try to get the next Transit Museum tour which stops there, called "Dual Contracts to Dyre Avenue". Part of the tour takes you onto the NYW&B platform. Tour info is available at [7] The Transit Museum Web Site off the MTA's web site. --Mark

Thread title: E Train Assignments (758429)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:44:17 1997, by Bryan Layne

Subject: E Train Assignments
Message Number: 758429
Posted by: Bryan Layne
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:17 1997

Are the R-38 and R-46 the 2 cars that are assigned to the E.Am I right on this one?
- Subject: Re: E Train Assignments
- Message Number: 758430
- Posted by: John da stranger
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:17 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]E Train Assignments posted by Bryan Layne on October 04, 1997 at 22:26:23: Read the FAQ's!
  - Subject: Re: E Train Assignments
  - Message Number: 758454
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:36 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]E Train Assignments posted by Bryan Layne on October 04, 1997 at 22:26:23: The E train service requirements call for 270 R-32s for AM service. That's 27 trains. There are 300 R-32s assigned to the Jamaica Fleet, of which, 6 are out of service each day for inspection. Therefore, if more than 24 R-32s are out of service for repairs, R-46s must be used in E Service. R-38s are not generally used for E service but could be if necessary.
    - Subject: Re: E Train Assignments
    - Message Number: 758508
    - Posted by: Nick
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:18 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: E Train Assignments posted by John da stranger on October 04, 1997 at 23:08:00: The only thing I miss about the R-46's is the blue "E" sticker...so you knew immediatly what train was coming into the station. However, it's convenient in the areas where the E and F share a track, because if you don't see an orange sticker, you know it's the E.-NICK

Thread title: Re: E Train Assignments (Why?) (758432)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:44:19 1997, by P.A.R.

Subject: Re: E Train Assignments (Why?)
Message Number: 758432
Posted by: P.A.R.
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:19 1997

In Reply to: [5]E Train Assignments posted by Bryan Layne on October 04, 1997 at 22:26:23: The cars that are assigned to the E Train are R-32's, and not R-38's. R-38's are generally assigned to the A and C Lines. On occasion you might see a train or two comprised of R-46's assigned to the E. While we're on the subject of cars that are assigned to the E, does anyone know why the R-32's replaced the R-46's? I believe that the R-32's would be better served if assigned to the F which now has R-46's. There are more people who use the F than the E, and the dwell time at the station for the F would be less if it had R-32's (due to the increase in the number of doors for passengers to enter). What do you think? Thanks.
- Subject: Re: E Train Assignments (Why?)
- Message Number: 758441
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:26 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: E Train Assignments (Why?) posted by P.A.R. on October 04, 1997 at 23:12:00: That's the exact same reason the R32's were put back on the E... more doors. You'll appreciate the extra doors if you ride the E between Penn Station and Lex during rush hours...

Thread title: L and J/Z connection (F.K.A. Re: ENY El Ramp) (758437)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:44:23 1997, by John da stranger

Subject: L and J/Z connection (F.K.A. Re: ENY El Ramp)
Message Number: 758437
Posted by: John da stranger
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:23 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: East New York El Ramp posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on September 29, 1997 at 07:21:49: Is there a connection between the L and the J/Z line? Is there plans to connect them to make a R'way Pkwy.-Myrtle Av.-Chinatown(Ctr. St.)-Broad St.-New Utretcht Av.-Bay Ridge-Coney Island train????(Or just R'way Pkwy-Myrtle-Chambers-Broad Street?) Is that the flyover that you're talkin' about????
- Subject: Re: L and J/Z connection (F.K.A. Re: ENY El Ramp)
- Message Number: 758503
- Posted by: subway-buff
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:15 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]L and J/Z connection (F.K.A. Re: ENY El Ramp) posted by John da stranger on October 04, 1997 at 23:28:34: They are two separate items. First there is a track connection between the J/z and the L and also between both lines and the E NY Yard. The tracks we are discussing is the track that rise above the center track on the J Platform that stops suddenly.
  - Subject: Re: L and J/Z connection (F.K.A. Re: ENY El Ramp)
  - Message Number: 758505
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:16 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: L and J/Z connection (F.K.A. Re: ENY El Ramp) posted by subway-buff on October 07, 1997 at 18:35:27: I just rescanned some pictures of this area. In [7]this picture you can clearly see the ramp rising above Alabama Av. Station on the extreme left of the shot.
    - Subject: Re: L and J/Z connection (F.K.A. Re: ENY El Ramp)
    - Message Number: 758515
    - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:24 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: L and J/Z connection (F.K.A. Re: ENY El Ramp) posted by David Pirmann on October 07, 1997 at 20:17:07: Which way is the camera pointed in the new BWJct. photo? East? The unused ramp appears light in color because it has no tis installed, but apparently is being painted regularly. Does this mean something might still be built?
      - Subject: Re: L and J/Z connection (F.K.A. Re: ENY El Ramp)
      - Message Number: 758523
      - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: L and J/Z connection (F.K.A. Re: ENY El Ramp) posted by Gary Jacobi on October 08, 1997 at 12:27:58: The camera is facing East (towards Queens). You are correct in that there are no tiles installed. My guess about it being painted regularly is that it is an integral part of the support structure in that area and needs to be maintained with the rest of the El. There isn't anything being planned for that area that I am aware of. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: L and J/Z connection (F.K.A. Re: ENY El Ramp)
        Message Number: 758526
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: L and J/Z connection (F.K.A. Re: ENY El Ramp) posted by Gary Jacobi on October 08, 1997 at 12:27:58: The picture was taken from the "L" platform at Broadway Junction, facing east toward Alabama Ave. The train on the track in the foreground is on the flyover from northbound "L" line to westbound "J" line (not normally used in revenue service - nowadays at least). Things get painted because it's cheaper to paint it than to demolish it, or wait till it rusts and then falls down... there are more pressing issues than building something on that ramp :-)

Thread title: NYC Buses (Technical) (758451)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:44:33 1997, by H. Torzinski

Subject: NYC Buses (Technical)
Message Number: 758451
Posted by: H. Torzinski
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:33 1997

I have three question about NYC buses. I hope somebody can answer these questions for me. 1) My first question is why do the NYC buses accelerate so slowly? I seen drivers floor the gas, but the bus seems to pick up very slowly, even when it is nearly empty. 2) This is about the instrument panal. On the left side of the driver, there is a gauge that is label "Axle Air Pressure." Is this the air pressure for the brakes? 3) When the bus reached a terminal station, I saw the driver turn a red lever. Air seemed to be released at high pressure near the front wheels. Does anybody know what this lever is and does? I notice it is not the parking brake.
- Subject: Re: NYC Buses (Technical)
- Message Number: 758463
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:43 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]NYC Buses (Technical) posted by H. Torzinski on October 05, 1997 at 11:44:00: I can address you first and last questions. Acceleration - I think that the throttle response may be purposely set that way The valve - This releases the air from the front doors, so that they may be opened and closed manually. The driver simply opens and closes the doors with his/her hands when leaving and re-entering the bus. In the old days they just closed and opened the doors from outside the drivers' windows, but with the RTS I don't think they would be able to reach the door handle from outside the window. Another thing drivers used to do was to leave the rear door unlocked and leave/enter through it, but this requires the engine to be running and idleing engines these these days are a serious no-no.

Thread title: Model of CTA Red and Purle Line (758459)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:44:40 1997, by BJ

Subject: Model of CTA Red and Purle Line
Message Number: 758459
Posted by: BJ
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:40 1997

I'm going to build a model of the CTA Red and Purple Lines, just as they appear in real life. I was wondering if their are any deals you could get on track, track electrification boxes, over the internet. I have no problem getting the wood to build the structure. I may have to wait to get models of subway cars thought, I hear that the NYC Subway comes out next year. Have any idea when? And just for your information Chicagoland Hobby in Chicago no longer sells model "EL" tracks. They used to build them and they were the only one in Chicago that sold that, but I guess they recently stopped because of NYC comming out next year. If you have any information reguarding any of this I would like to hear it, THANKS IN ADVANCE!
- Subject: Re: Model of CTA Red and Purle Line
- Message Number: 758462
- Posted by: steve
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:42 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Model of CTA Red and Purle Line posted by BJ on October 05, 1997 at 20:09:06: do you need track drawings of the area christof@webtv.net
  - Subject: Re: Model of CTA Red and Purle Line
  - Message Number: 758470
  - Posted by: Bryan Layne
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:49 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Model of CTA Red and Purle Line posted by BJ on October 05, 1997 at 20:09:06: Just remember to put graffiti covering almost every Red Line station though...since you want to be realistic.

Thread title: Turbotrain??? (758460)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:44:41 1997, by Philip Nasadowski

Subject: Turbotrain???
Message Number: 758460
Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:41 1997

Does anyone know if Amtrak is still useing their Rohr/ANF gas turbine trains anymore?? I thought they were pulled from service a few years back, but saw one at Penn the other week. Are they still used? With turbines? Does anyone know anything about these cars?? I know they were better than the UT ones, but none of the 3 tested were big sucesses. Also, does ANYONE know ANYTHING about the LIRR's turbine cars tested in the 60's (70's???) and what became of them?
- Subject: Re: Turbotrain???
- Message Number: 758475
- Posted by: Joe M
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:53 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Turbotrain??? posted by Philip Nasadowski on October 05, 1997 at 21:17:29: I read somehwere on the net or in a trade magazine in the last week or two that a north east transit agency, I think somewhere in PA, is buying them and upgrading them. They had a number designation for them after the upgrade but I dont know if it was an electrical, control or power upgrade or all. I will see if I can find the story or if anyone esle see's it let us know.
  - Subject: Re: Turbotrain???
  - Message Number: 758478
  - Posted by: John
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:55 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Turbotrain??? posted by Joe M on October 06, 1997 at 21:37:26: Does this mean Amtrak is retiring them? I rode a turbo train from Penn Station up to Niagara Falls a few years ago in Custom Class, and I like them better than the regular Amfleet trains. They are quieter, a lot more roomier, and have HUGE windows! What will be the replacement train for these, if there is one?

Thread title: Q58 direct service to John Bowne HS (758461)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:44:41 1997, by steve

Subject: Q58 direct service to John Bowne HS
Message Number: 758461
Posted by: steve
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:41 1997

does anyone have routing info on the new Reeves Av extension to the HS in the morning

Thread title: Philadelphia's Commuter Rail In The 1970's (758472)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:44:50 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Philadelphia's Commuter Rail In The 1970's
Message Number: 758472
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:50 1997

Back in 1974, when I was 10 years old, I went on a field trip with my class to Center City, Philadelphia. We went by train on what is now the R2 Marcus Hook/Wilmington Line (we boarded the train in Marcus Hook). As I remember, the train we rode inbound did not resemble any of the trains currently in use (Silverliner II's, III's, or IV's), they looked more like the old Metroliner MU's, with the curved sides, except they had reversible commuter train "bench" style seating, instead of the reclining airline style seating found on Metroliners, and current Amtrak trains. As far as I know, Philadelphia's commuter rail lines were operated by Penn Central, and Conrail back in the 1970's, before SEPTA took over in the early 1980's. Does anyone know if Penn Central (or Conrail) experimented with Metroliner MU's for commuter use during the mid 1970's, or can anyone tell me what kind of train that may have been that I rode on in 1974? As I haven't seen a train like it currently running on SEPTA's commuter rail system. Hope someone can answer this.
- Subject: Re: Philadelphia's Commuter Rail In The 1970's
- Message Number: 758473
- Posted by: Bobw
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:51 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Philadelphia's Commuter Rail In The 1970's posted by Timothy on October 06, 1997 at 19:26:25: The interior sounds like the Silverliner I, II or III vintage. Except for some of the St Louis (II) cars which had more substantial seats, these classes had "flip-over" seats, not walkover - the seatback spun as it was reversed, thus it had cushioning on only one side. There are still a good number of II's and III's in service with this style of seat. The curved side is less likely, as none of the 'Liners have this feature. I do not believe the Metroliners were ever used on commuter lines, and if they would have been, they certainly would not have had bench seating. My suspicion is that you rode on a pre-IV 'Liner. The IV's were delivered starting in '74, so this could easily have happened. Also, my recollection of the Wilmington line at that time is that it was heavily populated by MP-54's, but your description doesn't fit them.
  - Subject: Re: Philadelphia's Commuter Rail In The 1970's
  - Message Number: 758476
  - Posted by: John
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:53 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Philadelphia's Commuter Rail In The 1970's posted by Bobw on October 06, 1997 at 20:07:57: I do remember seeing a picture of a Metroliner-type MU train in Penn Central colors, although I have never seen one personally. Maybe they were experimenting with the train for a short time and later sold it to Amtrak? Or maybe it was on lease, or something???
    - Subject: Re: Philadelphia's Commuter Rail In The 1970's
    - Message Number: 758482
    - Posted by: Alan Follett
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:58 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Philadelphia's Commuter Rail In The 1970's posted by John on October 06, 1997 at 22:02:40: There were indeed Metroliners in PC livery--Metroliner service began 1/16/69, well before Amtrak. In fact, the Metroliner cab cars as originally delivered by Budd in 1967 carried PRR keystones. However, it's very unlikely that Metroliners were used in commuter service in the 1970s. The State of Pennsylvania did buy a few extra cars as part of the original Metroliner order with an eye toward Philadelphia-Harrisburg service; but as far as I know they never operated on this line, instead being mingled with DOT/PC equipment on Corridor trains. The only Metroliner revenue operation west of Philadelphia that I am aware of was the operation of Tr. 201 through from Downingtown to Washington (oddly, with no equivalent northbound schedule) in the timetables of 10/28/89 and 4/190; and that may have been after the retirement of the original MU equipment.
      - Subject: Re: Philadelphia's Commuter Rail In The 1970's
      - Message Number: 758483
      - Posted by: Alan Follett
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Philadelphia's Commuter Rail In The 1970's posted by John on October 06, 1997 at 22:02:40: There were indeed Metroliners in PC livery--Metroliner service began 1/16/69, well before Amtrak. In fact, the Metroliner cab cars as originally delivered by Budd in 1967 carried PRR keystones. However, it's very unlikely that Metroliners were used in commuter service in the 1970s. The State of Pennsylvania did buy a few extra cars as part of the original Metroliner order with an eye toward Philadelphia-Harrisburg service; but as far as I know they never operated on this line, instead being mingled with DOT/PC equipment on Corridor trains. The only Metroliner revenue operation west of Philadelphia that I am aware of was the operation of Tr. 201 through from Downingtown to Washington (oddly, with no equivalent northbound schedule) in the timetables of 10/28/89 and 4/190; and that may have been after the retirement of the original MU equipment.
        
        Subject: Re: Philadelphia's Commuter Rail In The 1970's
        Message Number: 758535
        Posted by: Bobw
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Philadelphia's Commuter Rail In The 1970's posted by John on October 06, 1997 at 22:02:40: The Metroliners were purchased by Penn Central and ran with PC heralds before Amtrak's takeover. I believe Metroliner service started in 1969.

Thread title: Supertrains (758477)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:44:54 1997, by Lefty

Subject: Supertrains
Message Number: 758477
Posted by: Lefty
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:54 1997

If anyone missed "Supertrains" tonight on the Disconvery Channel I highly highly highly reccomend you look for a rebroadcast of it, cause it kicked ass. So look it up in your local listings!
- Subject: Re: Supertrains
- Message Number: 758493
- Posted by: Lou
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:07 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Supertrains posted by Lefty on October 06, 1997 at 22:05:53: I taped it, too busy watching the Yankees lose. I did flip to it on comercial and it look cool. Saw the UP Chalanger but how much of it was high speed and how much steam?
  - Subject: Re: Supertrains
  - Message Number: 758506
  - Posted by: Lefty
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:17 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Supertrains posted by Lou on October 07, 1997 at 11:01:42: i taped it also while watching the yankees lose.. went all the way up to maglev trains.. and tgv's and what not.. it was mostly about modern stuff..

Thread title: 24hr. subways (758481)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:44:57 1997, by John F

Subject: 24hr. subways
Message Number: 758481
Posted by: John F
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:44:57 1997

Does anyone know of any cities in the world whose subways run 24 hours, 365 days, aside from New York?
- Subject: Re: 24hr. subways
- Message Number: 758488
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:03 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]24hr. subways posted by John F on October 06, 1997 at 23:06:10: Philadelphia's subway used to run 24/7, every half hour after 1:00 AM. Some years ago, they replaced post-midnight service with a bus every 15 minutes. So, maybe NY is really the only one now.
  - Subject: Re: 24hr. subways
  - Message Number: 758489
  - Posted by: Ed Sachs
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:04 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]24hr. subways posted by John F on October 06, 1997 at 23:06:10: In Chicago, we call them 'Ls', and some of the lines run 24 hrs. (specifically, the blue, red, and green lines, and the purple line shuttle).
    - Subject: Re: 24hr. subways
    - Message Number: 758520
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:28 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]24hr. subways posted by John F on October 06, 1997 at 23:06:10: I *think* London still runs 24/7. --Mark
      - Subject: Re: 24hr. subways
      - Message Number: 758524
      - Posted by: Todd Glickman
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: 24hr. subways posted by Mark S Feinman on October 08, 1997 at 14:03:14: I'm told they shut down on Christmas Day, however. So technically, it's not 24/7.
        
        Subject: Re: 24hr. subways
        Message Number: 758529
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:35 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: 24hr. subways posted by Mark S Feinman on October 08, 1997 at 14:03:14: No, no, no... Last Underground trains depart around 12:15. Night buses radiating out from Trafalgar Square take over after that. Yes, they close on Christmas. Some other holidays too I think. --Dave
        
        Subject: Re: 24hr. subways
        Message Number: 758534
        Posted by: Bobw
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]24hr. subways posted by John F on October 06, 1997 at 23:06:10: PATCO, technically a subway within Phila, still runs around the clock, as it has since its inception.
        
        Subject: Re: 24hr. subways
        Message Number: 758942
        Posted by: John
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: 24hr. subways posted by Carl M. Rabbin on October 07, 1997 at 10:01:08: The PATH is also a 24-hour system.
        
        Subject: Re: 24hr. subways
        Message Number: 758950
        Posted by: FRED WELLMAN
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:32 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: 24hr. subways posted by John on October 09, 1997 at 00:17:31: Is PATH 24 hours to Philly?
        
        Subject: Re: 24hr. subways
        Message Number: 758953
        Posted by: Michael S. Buglak
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:34 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: 24hr. subways posted by FRED WELLMAN on October 09, 1997 at 11:32:55: PATCO (not PATH) does run 24 hours into Philly from Camden & Lindenwold, NJ. I believe the headway is every 30 minutes during the "owl" hours (1am-5am). BTW, this is the same "Locust Street Subway" that was operated as part of the PRT/PTC/SEPTA Broad Street Subway system from c.1936-1968 between Philadelphia & Camden. Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
        
        Subject: Re: 24hr. subways
        Message Number: 758955
        Posted by: John
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: 24hr. subways posted by Michael S. Buglak on October 09, 1997 at 13:10:33: No, no, no, I meant PATH - not PATCO. PATH - as in Port Authority Trans-Hudson Corp. Newark-Journal Square-WTC, and Journal Square-Hoboken-33rd Street are the two 24 hour lines. The others run only during the day.
        
        Subject: Re: 24hr. subways
        Message Number: 758986
        Posted by: Bobw
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: 24hr. subways posted by Michael S. Buglak on October 09, 1997 at 13:10:33: Yes, PATCO still operates every 30 mins between midnight and 5 am, with a couple of extras on Friday nights. At one time, single-car trains were the norm, but it appears that nothing less than two cars in a train operates these days. Don't know why.

Thread title: you can't get there from here (758487)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:45:02 1997, by sammy

Subject: you can't get there from here
Message Number: 758487
Posted by: sammy
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:02 1997

Want to know why many people detest the subways? Here's an odd but true story..... I commute via the G line every night and have to leave fairly early to get in on time at 1 am. But last night,. it was absolutely IMPOSSIBLE!!!!! If I catch the trains right, its a 30-40 minute trip at night. So I left the house at my accustomed leaving time of 12:15 am. No problem there. However, the northbound G train was early, so I missed it. I can wait for the B61 bus (which replicates the G line), but in the 40 minutes I waited for a northbound train or the bus, neither showed (you can wait at the top of the stairs at Nassau Ave. and see the B61 stop clearly while waiting for the train). So finally, it looks like a northbound G is arriving, so I rush downstairs, and the train pulls in, but bypasses the station. Another G is right behind it, but it takes 20 minutes to reach Court Square for a 5-7 minute trip. Then, because the brain surgeons at the MTA cut off service to Manhattan, I had a choice: either pay another fare and take the 7 (I was refused a transfer ticket), or go back to Queens Plaza to wait for an re-routed E which went over the R line. I hopped an F back to Queens Plaza, and had to wait 20 more minutes for the E. It went extremely slowly through the 59thj Street tunnel, which just about assured me of missing a connection to the 4 or 6 downtown, which I did, but less than a minute. I wound up walking the 12 blocks to my office with a total commute time of 2 hours. So here's my solution to preventing this type of MTA idiocy: 1) Take the entire MTA board out and shoot them. 2) Disband the unions immediately - or- 3) Make them work (you know what they call a bench filled with subway workers and one empty seat? an utter waste!!!!) 4) Make a physical strength test mandatory (Id rather have an OPTO train than that fat, obnoxious conductor we had tonight. If there was a crime, yeah, he would be some help). 5) Make every MTAboard member travel at odd hours to see what its like 6) Make the MTA accountable for lost pay and productivity time. I'd love to sue these bastards. 7) Make transit available for everyone - the masses, like it should be. 8) If there construction schedules that reduce service greatly, then do the shuttle bus thing - Court Square, Queens Plaza, Queensboro Plaza, 59/Lex and 53/Lex. That would give us a fighting chance to not have to leave three hours early for work for what should be a 20 minute trip. 9) Get people with brains to run the organization. Get workers who care about there work. As for the station cleaning crew, well there's plenty of help available at Rikers. They should do hard labor. 10) What can we do? Yell, scream, castigate the conductor, your assembly person, etc. Refuse to buy and use the metro card. Tell the MTA to shove it. ...Only then will we get the service the good people of this city deserve.
- Subject: Re: you can't get there from here
- Message Number: 758490
- Posted by: Carl M. Rabbin
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:04 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]you can't get there from here posted by sammy on October 07, 1997 at 05:37:09: Sounds like construction troubles really screwed you over that time. Why not avoid the whole Queens Plaza / Court Square area mess during the reconstruction by taking a southbound G to Lorimer/Metropolitan and get the L to Union Square? Or take a southbound G to Hoyt-Schermerhorn and get the A to the Financial District? Good luck!!
  - Subject: Re: you can't get there from here
  - Message Number: 758512
  - Posted by: sammy
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:22 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: you can't get there from here posted by Carl M. Rabbin on October 07, 1997 at 10:05:05: that's not the point. Firstly I work uptown, and going downtown would be a waste of time, effort and energy. Second of all, I am a taxpayer and I do have the right to mass/rapid transit. Its what we are paying for. If the idiots who run the MTA can't see clear to properly plan and minimize the effect of construction on neighborhoods (they will choke the economic life out of Greenpoint and Long Island City because of this shortsightedness), then why should I support the MTA with my tax dollars? What Im trying to stress here is that this trip from hell could have been easily avoided if someone one from the MTA thought about what they were doing. Hey. This is not brain surgery. Its also time we made people responsible for their work and its effect on the taxpaying public. Why should I support the MTA unions? They fight against productivity, seem to work less than two hours a day, have total disregard for rules (they smoke in stations and at work on the tracks) and they have no pride whatsoever. Want to know why work takes so long and the cost of the subway is so high? Unions. Plane and simple. The MTA needs to grow two things to avoid this mess and win passengers back: brains and balls. Too bad they lack both.

Thread title: I miss my 68 (758494)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:45:08 1997, by Lou

Subject: I miss my 68
Message Number: 758494
Posted by: Lou
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:08 1997

I know this is beat to death here but it has been a little over a week with me riding the R40s on the Q line and I do miss the R68/68a's. I normaly catch the 7:02ish at Kings Highway (that would be what Brighton 6:56?) and with the R68 there were pleanty of seats left. With the R40s not a seat to be found (I guess lack of seat cut outs detracts). I also find the 40's **A LOT** more noisy than the 68's. I don't miss the door chimes though and you can not hear the crew talking over problems on the PA since there is no intercom. I did ride in the front railfan window (>G
- Subject: Re: I miss my 68
- Message Number: 758496
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:09 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]I miss my 68 posted by Lou on October 07, 1997 at 11:51:58: Know what you mean, Lou. I remember back in what must have been 1979 or so, due to the R46 problems, R10s got switched to the D (replacing R44s), R46s to the CC, etc. That's also when the MDBF on the R44s was something like 5,000 miles and the B Division still had the R16s with which it had to contend. I actually remember seeing a train of R38s on the JFK Express during that same period!!!
  - Subject: Re: I miss my 68
  - Message Number: 758499
  - Posted by: Michael Brucculeri
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:12 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]I miss my 68 posted by Lou on October 07, 1997 at 11:51:58: It's funny you say that....I live at 169 and braodway and regularly rode R-40 B trains instead of the A just so I could get that great view out the window. The R-68's seem so sterile! I miss my 40!!!
    - Subject: Re: I miss my 68
    - Message Number: 758501
    - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:13 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: I miss my 68 posted by Charles Fiori on October 07, 1997 at 14:21:47: I remember this period also when it seemed like nearly every IND line swapped equipment overnight. I think R-10s also showed up on the E & F also. I also remeber seeing R-38s on the JFK Express a couple of times. I felt the same way Lou feels now when the R-68As were taken from the D line.
      - Subject: Re: I miss my 68
      - Message Number: 758507
      - Posted by: subway-buff
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]I miss my 68 posted by Lou on October 07, 1997 at 11:51:58: I agree. It was also strange yet Deja Vue to see an R312 (brightliner) back on Brighton. The R40s/r40M/R42 have one other good thing. At least in my opinion (and that of Greller), they seem to have the coldest a/c- I love to ride those in the summer to cool off even though they are elevated. I know that NYCT says the E is the coolest since it never goes above ground but I have been in many an oven of R32. It is also strange to see the 68 cars on the B (and yes- they are still running 40S and 40M on the B- I saw 3--- 1 straight and 2 slant on 10/6/1997. If you like 40s on the B el, try the M train from Bay Parkway! (Note to Jason 722 Miles-thanks for the door closing wav file!)
        
        Subject: Re: I miss my 68
        Message Number: 758514
        Posted by: Lou
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: I miss my 68 posted by Michael Brucculeri on October 07, 1997 at 17:32:46: Sorry I rode the headend on a R40s the other day. The Q line is just not exciting enough for a headend ride. Real straight no big curves (little one round Church/Parkside) and no big switching until you get off 6 Ave (haven't gone headend to 21st Queensbridge in awhile). For a daily morning commute I want the 68 which is MUCH more quite then the 40's (hehe) so I can doze.
        
        Subject: Re: I miss my 68
        Message Number: 758519
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: I miss my 68 posted by Lou on October 08, 1997 at 09:02:02: Not exciting enough?? The Brighton line offers a great deal of variety not offered by other lines: - elevated EL to Neptune Ave - elevated embankment to Ave H - open cut to Propsect Park - tunnel to Manhattan Bridge - the ride over the Mahnattan Bridge ... and "no big switching" / "no big curves"? Gee, I always thought the DeKalb Ave complex was fascinating. An interesting note is that with the C going to OPTO (and getting R-46s, I believe), the B getting 68s, the A mostly R-44s and the D remaining with 68s, one is hard-pressed to get a cab view of the express stretch between 59th St and 145th St. (Unless you wait for the occasional A train consisting of R-38s). And with the change in equipment, well, I guess I'll have to take a day off and spend some more time rainfanning the Brighton Line ... :-) --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: I miss my 68
        Message Number: 758536
        Posted by: David L.
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: I miss my 68 posted by Mark S Feinman on October 08, 1997 at 13:58:17: And don't forget about the nice view of the abandoned Myrtle Ave Station if you're on a Manhattan-bound train.
        
        Subject: Re: I miss my 68
        Message Number: 758652
        Posted by: NO STATION
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: I miss my 68 posted by Sherman Cheung on October 20, 1997 at 13:04:46: Or rebuild the thing as an artwork like it used to be.
        
        Subject: Re: I miss my 68
        Message Number: 758941
        Posted by: John
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: I miss my 68 posted by subway-buff on October 07, 1997 at 20:44:47: What's an R-312?
        
        Subject: Re: I miss my 68
        Message Number: 758947
        Posted by: Lou
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: I miss my 68 posted by Mark S Feinman on October 08, 1997 at 13:58:17: The Brighton line offers a great deal of variety not offered by other lines: - elevated EL to Neptune Ave ** GOOD POINT** This was great with the B Train I liked railfanning the B with the MB and the interlocking into Dekalb and on weekends to 21st St. Riding the Q through Dekalb is the best part of the Ride IMHO. - tunnel to Manhattan Bridge - the ride over the Mahnattan Bridge
        
        Subject: Re: I miss my 68
        Message Number: 758948
        Posted by: Lou
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: I miss my 68 posted by David L. on October 08, 1997 at 21:05:10: What ever happened to the "art" projects they would put down there. Does anyone remember the moving image thing?? (Myrtle Ave)
        
        Subject: Re: I miss my 68
        Message Number: 758952
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: I miss my 68 posted by Lou on October 09, 1997 at 10:07:56: Yes I remember that "moving image thing" well. I believe it was a series of pictures when seen through the slats of the "exhibit" from a moving train that gave it the appearance of motion. I think it was people walking or running but I don't remember exactly. It was vandalized and I guess no one wanted to spend the money to fix it up. My opinion - take down that "structure" so we can see the remains of the station (and maybe even a future transit museum trip ... :) --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: I miss my 68
        Message Number: 758957
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: I miss my 68 posted by John on October 09, 1997 at 00:13:51: Sorry! The r-312 is a typo for R32 ! Sorry 'bout that. I get fifty lashes with a wet noodle!
        
        Subject: Re: I miss my 68
        Message Number: 759099
        Posted by: Sherman Cheung
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: I miss my 68 posted by Mark S Feinman on October 09, 1997 at 12:27:01: Or, or, rebuild the thing and use it as a BMT passenger station like its supposed to be. Sherman

Thread title: Electric or Diesel (758498)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:45:11 1997, by John

Subject: Electric or Diesel
Message Number: 758498
Posted by: John
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:11 1997

If the NJTransit Morristown Line is electrified, why are diesel-hauled trains frequently used? Is this because of lack of electric or MU equipment?
- Subject: Re: Electric or Diesel
- Message Number: 758502
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:14 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Electric or Diesel posted by John on October 07, 1997 at 16:54:01: The Morristown line electrification ends at Dover; any trains travelling past there to Hackettstown (another ~20 miles) must be diesel. Most of these trains go via the Boonton Line, which is also not electrified. But I think there may be one or two trips a day Hackettstown - Hoboken via Summit. Also, on nights and weekends frequently there is power work going on which would require all or part of the catenary to be shut down. In the winter-time they'll sometimes have frozen catenary or worse, pull-downs, but that can happen at any time, really. When the Midtown Direct connection opened, most of the ALP-44 locos were switched to Dover-NY-Penn service, with some amount of Arrow cars going to the NEC. So it's possible that from time to time there's an eqiupment shortage too. I guess you'd have to have an "official" answer on this one.. -dave

Thread title: G Line Car Assignments (758504)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:45:15 1997, by Steve

Subject: G Line Car Assignments
Message Number: 758504
Posted by: Steve
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:15 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Rush hour Westend Express posted by David L. on October 07, 1997 at 17:33:20: The G Line is supposed to have 14 6-car R-46 trains assigned to it. 14 A-B-B-A Units 13 A-A Units 1 A-B Unit Any deviation from the above is due to a shortage of R-46 cars. Currently, the R-46 fleet is undergoing a 6 year mini-overhaul in Coney Island which could cause some periodic car shortages. R-32s are not assigned to the G line.

Thread title: Re: Front signs-B Division (I'm not making this up!) (758513)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:45:23 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Re: Front signs-B Division (I'm not making this up!)
Message Number: 758513
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:23 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: Front signs-B Division (Corrected at end) posted by Lou from Middletown on October 07, 1997 at 13:31:50: Lou, as Dave Barry says, "I'm not making this up." Planning ahead, I think. My next listing up here will be the side route signs put in the R32-38s. One reading I remember has the J, in a brown diamond, going out to Brighton!!
- Subject: Re: Front signs-B Division (I'm not making this up!)
- Message Number: 758963
- Posted by: Zack
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:42 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Front signs-B Division (I'm not making this up!) posted by Charles Fiori on October 08, 1997 at 07:54:22: somewhere on this site i bleave its in the coney yard historcial section there is a r30 with V in a red circle in it.

Thread title: WAV files (758517)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:45:26 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: WAV files
Message Number: 758517
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:26 1997

Somewhere on this board, I saw reference to a wav file of doors closing. Where can this be tracked down? Can the owner or person in the know fess up? Is there a storehouse of such things?? Thanks.
- Subject: Re: WAV files
- Message Number: 758518
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:27 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]WAV files posted by Charles Fiori on October 08, 1997 at 13:24:25: You've probably seen numerous requests but never an actual sound. But I just uploaded one to [7]ftp://nycsubway.org/pub/subway It's the only subway-related sound i've come across so no, there's no storehouse. -Dave
  - Subject: Re: WAV files
  - Message Number: 758521
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:29 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: WAV files posted by David Pirmann on October 08, 1997 at 13:33:53: Hmmm ... just tried this link and all I got was a link to a higher level subdirectory. No .WAV file. Tried standard anonymous FTP, too. AM I missing something? --Mark
    - Subject: Re: WAV files
    - Message Number: 758530
    - Posted by: David Pirmann
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:36 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: WAV files posted by Mark S Feinman on October 08, 1997 at 14:09:55: There should be a file called subway.wav and one called subway.au panix> ftp nycsubway.org Connected to nycsubway.org 220 quartz FTP server (Version wu-2.4(1) Mon May 9 22:28:22 EDT 1994) ready. Name (quuxuum.org:pirmann): ftp 331 Guest login ok, send your complete e-mail address as password. Password: 230 Guest login ok, access restrictions apply. ftp> cd /pub/subway ftp> ls subway.au bignysubway.zip bigyards.zip yards.zip nysubway.zip subway.wav ftp> Did I post the link wrong? it should be ftp://nycsubway.org/pub/subway
      - Subject: Re: WAV files
      - Message Number: 758531
      - Posted by: Charles Fiori
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: WAV files posted by David Pirmann on October 08, 1997 at 15:46:31: No good, I keep getting the higher directories, too. This type of thing would be kind of cool. As always, your efforts are appreciated. Any thought to breaking up the bulletin board into specific areas of interest, while keeping the main one running? Or, as I have seen elsewhere, highlighting with a 'bullet' those posts which came "today."
        
        Subject: Re: WAV files
        Message Number: 758532
        Posted by: Subway-buff
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]WAV files posted by Charles Fiori on October 08, 1997 at 13:24:25: I asked, on Deja-News, NYC.Transit if anyone had the sound as a wav file. Jason Decasare has also posted on subtalk sent me an e-mail attachment. with the sound. his e-mail is miles722@erols.com I use the sound to exit windows and am fixing to use it to close programs.
        
        Subject: Re: WAV files
        Message Number: 758533
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: WAV files posted by Charles Fiori on October 08, 1997 at 16:34:12: Use the View by Date page to see what came in today... I suppose I could make it boldface today's articles, or the ones in the past 24 hours or whatnot. Try using a regular FTP client program like WS_FTP and see if you can get to the files... WebBoard is really pissy to set up multiple webboards. I don't think there's enough volume on the main board to justify multiple boards.. -Dave
        
        Subject: Re: WAV files
        Message Number: 758538
        Posted by: Adam Weiss
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]WAV files posted by Charles Fiori on October 08, 1997 at 13:24:25: I was wondering if anyone can help me. I have a number of good subway sounds on a micro-tape, one of those small tapes. One of them is a particularly nice and clear sound of the doors closing. However, I have NO idea how to transfer them from my tape to my computer and onto the Internet. If someone could help me I would gladly make them available on a website. Thanks!
        
        Subject: Re: WAV files
        Message Number: 758951
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:32 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: WAV files posted by David Pirmann on October 08, 1997 at 15:46:31: Ok ... I see them now. I used anonymous ftp to get 'em. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: WAV files
        Message Number: 758965
        Posted by: Julio Perez
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]WAV files posted by Charles Fiori on October 08, 1997 at 13:24:25: Point your browser to [7]http://www.totalny.com/outabout/nyaccent/nysounds/ and you will see a series of sounds not only from the subway, but from New York City in general. It has some good .au files which you can convert to .wav using a shareware utility called GoldWave. They do have some sounds missing, though: R-9s braking, R-33/36 blowing their horns and/or closing their doors, R-12s about to depart stations (sounds hard to describe in text)... Anyone have these sounds...? :)
        
        Subject: Re: WAV files
        Message Number: 758967
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: WAV files posted by Julio Perez on October 10, 1997 at 08:58:56: Cha-ching!!!! You da man!!! Thanks, Julio. You hit the nail right on the head. Muchas gracias, mi amigo!!!
        
        Subject: Re: WAV files
        Message Number: 758981
        Posted by: Michael Berson
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:56 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: WAV files posted by Julio Perez on October 10, 1997 at 08:58:56: Outstanding... Thanks

Thread title: what line is currently runing R-110b cars(ind/bmt) (758525)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:45:32 1997, by jermaine Cooper

Subject: what line is currently runing R-110b cars(ind/bmt)
Message Number: 758525
Posted by: jermaine Cooper
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:32 1997

I've been trying to look for a place in this website to identify what R-type cars are currently operating whatever number or letter line. For Example R-46's the R,F, and G Lines. Ex. R-68's the B,D,Q,N, and S Lines.
- Subject: Re: what line is currently runing R-110b cars(ind/bmt)
- Message Number: 758528
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:34 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]what line is currently runing R-110b cars(ind/bmt) posted by jermaine Cooper on October 08, 1997 at 15:08:31: See the faq-- [7]faq We have a slightly out of date list. A lot of trains have been reassigned in recent weeks. When I get more recent data I'll update the faq. --Dave
  - Subject: Re: what line is currently runing R-110b cars(ind/bmt)
  - Message Number: 758537
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:41 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]what line is currently runing R-110b cars(ind/bmt) posted by jermaine Cooper on October 08, 1997 at 15:08:31: OK - I'll try to do this from memory but I don't guarantee 100% accuracy: A R-38 R-44 R-110B B R-68A C R-32 R-38 D R-68 E R-32 (sometimes R-46) F R-46 G R-46 (sometimes R-32) J/Z R-40M R-42 L R-42 M R-42 N R-32 R-68 Q R-40S R R-46 FS R-68 S R-44
    - Subject: Re: what line is currently runing R-110b cars(ind/bmt)
    - Message Number: 758946
    - Posted by: Lou
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:29 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: what line is currently runing R-110b cars(ind/bmt) posted by Steve on October 08, 1997 at 21:09:38: Q has at least an R32 hit it twice in one week, maybe too many 40s's are laid up.

Thread title: I dont like the Beep noise on R110a (758527)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:45:34 1997, by jermaine Cooper

Subject: I dont like the Beep noise on R110a
Message Number: 758527
Posted by: jermaine Cooper
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:34 1997

Does this mean the Subway cars of the future will not have a "ding - dong" noise when doors close? When I road on that r-110a car currently on the 2 line hearing those beep-beep noises, I hated it!!! I was having a bad headache too!! I hope the new R-142 cars in the future go back to the "ding dong" tones instead of the Beeps when the doors close!!!
- Subject: Re: I dont like the Beep noise on R110a
- Message Number: 758539
- Posted by: Nathan
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:43 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]I dont like the Beep noise on R110a posted by jermaine Cooper on October 08, 1997 at 15:20:13: Hmm, I wonder if it's as bad as the screeches heard on Bombardier Bi-levels...
  - Subject: Re: I dont like the Beep noise on R110a
  - Message Number: 758540
  - Posted by: Nathan
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:44 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]I dont like the Beep noise on R110a posted by jermaine Cooper on October 08, 1997 at 15:20:13: Hmm, I wonder if it's as bad as the screeches heard on Bombardier Bi-levels...
    - Subject: Re: I dont like the Beep noise on R110a
    - Message Number: 758574
    - Posted by: Nathan
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:36 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: I dont like the Beep noise on R110a posted by John on October 09, 1997 at 15:21:18: Or London tubes (and Glasgow Strathclyde PTE trains) spirally sound, almost sounds like a musical toilet flush!
      - Subject: Re: I dont like the Beep noise on R110a
      - Message Number: 758944
      - Posted by: Charles Fiori
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: I dont like the Beep noise on R110a posted by Nathan on October 08, 1997 at 22:25:40: Then you certainly won't like the new sound on the Bi-levels recently delivered to Chicago's Metra. The first ones delivered, which are cab cars, take out a large chunk of seats downstairs for a wheelchair-accessible washroom. They also have a two-tone when the doors close. The tones are ascending, rather than descending and sound as if they have been stolen from one of those Christmas cards with a little chip inside to play Silent Night or whatever. Then there is a recorded voice saying: "Caution. The doors are about to close."
        
        Subject: Re: I dont like the Beep noise on R110a
        Message Number: 758954
        Posted by: John
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:35 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: I dont like the Beep noise on R110a posted by Charles Fiori on October 09, 1997 at 07:09:40: Maybe, instead of 'ding-dong' and instead of 'beep-beep', they can use the sound that the LIRR has for the doors, - 'rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrring'.
        
        Subject: Re: I dont like the Beep noise on R110a
        Message Number: 758961
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: I dont like the Beep noise on R110a posted by John on October 09, 1997 at 15:21:18: Hey, I *LIKE* that ringing noise. Of course durring rush hour it should happen as the doors open, along with a canned voice saying "and they're off!!!..." :) Could be billed as a warning to the people on the platform to watch out for speeding commuters :) Also cool is the variety of Speed Control (tm:) buzzers/bells those M-1s have. Though my favorite is the whistle that the M-2s have in the cab - boy you can hear that thing from the other car!!!
        
        Subject: Re: I dont like the Beep noise on R110a
        Message Number: 758962
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: I dont like the Beep noise on R110a posted by John on October 09, 1997 at 15:21:18: Hey, I *LIKE* that ringing noise. Of course durring rush hour it should happen as the doors open, along with a canned voice saying "and they're off!!!..." :) Could be billed as a warning to the people on the platform to watch out for speeding commuters :) Also cool is the variety of Speed Control (tm:) buzzers/bells those M-1s have. Though my favorite is the whistle that the M-2s have in the cab - boy you can hear that thing from the other car!!!

Thread title: Slamtrak Talgo Tilters... (758541)
Started on Wed Oct 15 08:45:45 1997, by Nathan

Subject: Slamtrak Talgo Tilters...
Message Number: 758541
Posted by: Nathan
Date: Wed Oct 15 08:45:45 1997

I know this doesn't have to do with subway systems etc, but does anyone know how fast the SPanish Talgo-Pendular trains operate in service between Vancouver, Seattle and Portland?
- Subject: Re: Slamtrak Talgo Tilters...
- Message Number: 758552
- Posted by: Nathan
- Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:18 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Slamtrak Talgo Tilters... posted by John on October 09, 1997 at 00:07:44: Yeah, the schedule needs work... I was going down to Seattle last weekend but I missed the train, took me over an hour to get to the skytrain (a 10 minute trip normally) and then I ran into the station only to see the train leaving...
  - Subject: Re: Slamtrak Talgo Tilters...
  - Message Number: 758563
  - Posted by: Nathan
  - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:30:27 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Slamtrak Talgo Tilters... posted by Brent Foster on October 09, 1997 at 17:14:52: Yeah, the TALGO's in Spain operate at 200km/h and (apparently) can change wheel guage while moving! (Could just be a Renfe legend) About the subway gene, I have to admit that I've had it for about 14 years, and have only been alive 16!
    - Subject: Re: Slamtrak Talgo Tilters...
    - Message Number: 758940
    - Posted by: John
    - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:24 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Slamtrak Talgo Tilters... posted by Nathan on October 08, 1997 at 22:27:37: What's the story with those trains, anyway? I can't find any information on them at all. All I know is that they are a Spanish-built train and I have seen a couple photos, but there is nothing written about them in the Amtrak timetables or travel planner. I almost had the chance to ride one between Seattle and Vancouver this summer, but the [only] departure from Seattle was 7:30 in the morning, and I wasn't about to get up that early, so I took an 11:00 flight to Vancouver.
      - Subject: Re: Slamtrak Talgo Tilters...
      - Message Number: 758958
      - Posted by: Brent Foster
      - Date: Wed Nov 5 22:35:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Slamtrak Talgo Tilters... posted by John on October 09, 1997 at 00:07:44: You guys haven't heard from me before, so I'll introduce myself now.My name's Brent, and I'm a 16 year old co-op student living in Toronto and studying with the TTC. I've been fascinated by subways for so long that I'm convinced it's genetic. As for those Talgo trainsets, the RUMOR is that the normally operate in the 100-110 mph range. One neat thing that I read was that their wheel gauge is able to stretch and contract without any jacking or removing the axles (this comes in handy on trains leaving Spain for other points in Europe due to Spain's broad gauge).
        
        Subject: Re: Slamtrak Talgo Tilters...
        Message Number: 759041
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Wed Nov 5 22:36:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Slamtrak Talgo Tilters... posted by John on October 09, 1997 at 00:07:44: When I first read this post, I was in Seattle for the weekend, and thought I had hit a goldmine. However, they are not running yet. Find out all you want @ www.wsdot.wa.gov/pubtrain/rail/retalgo. Not only does the present train to Vancouver leave at 7:30, it takes till noon to get there!

https://www.nycsubway.org/articles/talks/subtalk-199710.html
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