SubTalk Archive 9/1997

Thread title: Princeton Junction (757345)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:12:16 1997, by Ted

Subject: Princeton Junction
Message Number: 757345
Posted by: Ted
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:16 1997

I was recently at the Princeton Junction station and observed a Amtrak train passing the station at a high speed. Do those trains travel at their top speed ( 125 MPH ) on that section of mainline track ? Can they go that fast because of the concrete ties ? How fast will the "American Flyer" go when it goes into revenue service in 1999 ? thanks.
- Subject: Re: Princeton Junction
- Message Number: 757354
- Posted by: John
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:23 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Princeton Junction posted by Ted on August 16, 1997 at 16:27:31: As far as I know, the Amtrak trains do travel at a +100 MPH speed on that section of track, but I don't know how long the 125 MPH speed is sustained. I assume that the fewer stops they make, the faster they go.
  - Subject: Re: Princeton Junction
  - Message Number: 757422
  - Posted by: Andrew Byler
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:15 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Princeton Junction posted by Ted on August 16, 1997 at 16:27:31: The Amtrak trains passing Princeton Jct. are going 125 mph if they are Metroliners, and 110 mph if they are NE Direct. The American Flyer will go at 150 mph through this area. This will be accomplished by two things - strengthening the switches and putting in constant tension catenary (a test section can be seen south of this area). There is also a move afoot with Amtrak to increase the speed of the current Metroliners to 135 mph. They are currently working with the FRA on this. Speed of track is determined by the following factors: 1) Maximum allowable deflection is 0.25 in" 2) Maximum allowable rail stresses are 25,000 psi in bending 3) Maximum allowable ballast pressure on the subgrade is 20 psi The above are determined from the elastic curve of a beam on a Winkler Foundation, an analytical model for a beam resting on an infinite spring base. This is a close approximation of the railroad track, which actually rests on closely spaced finite springs (each tie and the ballast act as a spring, and have a stiffness - for wood ties and ballast it is around 3,00 psi in summer and 9,000 in winter, for concrete ties it is 6,000 in summer and 18,000 in winter). The equation is a differential equation: EIw(x)"" + kw(x) = 0 Where: E is Young's Modulus (30,000,000 psi for rail steel) I is the moment of Inertia of the rail section k is the track modulus (the springiness of the tie and ballast) and w(x) is the deflection This is solved by perscribing boundary conditions - two under the wheel load in the "middle" of the beam which state that the curvature is zero and the shear equals the wheel load, and the regularity condition that deflection and curvature approach zero as x approaches infinity. Together, these give the solution which is a complex trignometirc and exponential function (you can find it in Prof. Hay's book "Railway Engineering" or in the American Railway Engineering Association Specifications, or in any of the excellent papers by Dr. Arnold Kerr published in a number of journals of the past 30 years). The speed works into this when considering the force. The AREA perscribes a speed factor of a = 1 + .33 * D / 33, where D is the wheel diameter. So as you can see, as the speed increases, the force exerted on the rail-tie structure also increases. The other factors affecting the speed as follows: 1) As the value of k increases, deflection decreases and pressure increases (necessitating more and harder ballasts). 2) As the value of I increases, deflection decreases and pressure decreases, but only very slightly. Thus, the major necessity for very high speed track is a stiff base - if conventional construction is used, one using concrete ties, or else using slab track construction, as on the Shinkansen and the new Koeln - Frankfurt am Main neubaustrecke for the ICE in Germany. Andy

Thread title: staten island rapid transit (757359)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:12:26 1997, by A. Scarpinato

Subject: staten island rapid transit
Message Number: 757359
Posted by: A. Scarpinato
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:26 1997

Has any progress been made in the rebuilding/reopening of the North Shore branch of the SIRT. Since the abandoned stations are still there, what including third railing and restoring passenger service, or trolley lite rail? Please respond with info. Then there are still South Beach right of ways intact to Hyland Blvd. Also perfect for lite rail. Any ideas on this
- Subject: Re: staten island rapid transit
- Message Number: 757412
- Posted by: Lou from Brookly (ex Staten Islander)
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:07 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]staten island rapid transit posted by A. Scarpinato on August 17, 1997 at 02:46:15: The RR that owns the trackage filed for abandament, this was a problem for SIRT (MTA Staten Island Railway) because they use a WYE at St. George that extends out onto this trackage ROW. This is the only place cars could be turned the way SIRT is now. I don't know what happened to this or the rest of the North Shore, there was talk about a guided busway out in Port Richmond but once the Staten Island Advance pounced all over, never heard about it. I'll ask my parents if they saw anything in the Advance lately (the S.I. paper).
  - Subject: Re: staten island rapid transit
  - Message Number: 757442
  - Posted by: Dan
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:31 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]staten island rapid transit posted by A. Scarpinato on August 17, 1997 at 02:46:15: Work has started on re-building the north shore line for limited frieght use. Passenger service is a long-term dream. The South Beach branch right of way was broken up by the construction of the Verrazano toll plazas, and lately by housing construction.

Thread title: Gate Cars (757360)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:12:27 1997, by Zack

Subject: Gate Cars
Message Number: 757360
Posted by: Zack
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:27 1997

What are "Gate Cars" and when were the retired and were any saved?????
- Subject: Re: Gate Cars
- Message Number: 757370
- Posted by: Allan
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:35 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Gate Cars posted by Zack on August 17, 1997 at 03:04:48: Gate Cars were used on Elevated lines in the early days of rapid transit in NYC (actually some were used into the 1950's. Instead of the sliding doors that were introduced on the subway cars, these cars had gates at both ends. Passengers had to exit thru these gates which were on short platforms on the outside of each car. Each pair of cars had a conductor who would stand between them and open/close the gates at a station stop. Once the gates were closed, the conductor would pull a cord which would ring a bell at the end of the next car, each conductor on the train would do the same in turn until the signal reached the motorman who would then know that it was safe to proceed. 3 such cars survive - they are in the Transit Museum in Brooklyn. These cars were slightly modified: the roofs were lowered so that they could fit in the subway tunnels and be moved to the Museum.
  - Subject: Re: Gate Cars
  - Message Number: 757491
  - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:10 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Gate Cars posted by Allan on August 17, 1997 at 19:30:52: The reason the gate cars in the Transit Museum have the lowered roofs has nothing to do with subway clearences. The cars are former remodeled wooden cars that were remodeled into 3-car sets by the BMT. (Their last assignment was the Myrtle Avenue Elevated in the 1970's.)In the early 1950 the cars were transferred to the 3rd Avenue elevated. The roofs were cut down from the standard railroad clearstory to what they have now to clear station canopies and the trucks were replaced with trucks from IRT Composite cars (to lessen the total weight - The 3-car sets were too heavy for the Manhattan portion of the El.) This made the cars slow and slightly "squashed". The gate cars are actually a re-converted 3-Car train and never were fully restored to BRT condition.

Thread title: LIRR Track Maps (757363)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:12:29 1997, by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto

Subject: LIRR Track Maps
Message Number: 757363
Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:29 1997

I am still looking for LIRR track maps - if anyone can help... I would like to do some new accurate Bahn simulations, covering at least the NYC branches of the LIRR. Thanks.
- Subject: LIRR Track Maps
- Message Number: 763509
- Posted by: Daniel A. Valles
- Date: Thu Feb 19 21:21:15 1998
  
  I'm just curious... There are maps here for the tracks of the Subway system... I was wondering: Would anybody know if a map (or maps) of the LIRR tracks exist... I wanted to do some research on the history of the LIRR, and part of my research is to analyze the different track connections to existing (and extinct) lines of the LIRR... If anyone has info, GRACIAS! You could post it here...

Thread title: Newark subway (757364)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:12:30 1997, by Fernando Perez

Subject: Newark subway
Message Number: 757364
Posted by: Fernando Perez
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:30 1997

What is the exact change fare for the Newark subway and what is the safety factor as far as crime is concerned on the line in the daytime during the week?
- Subject: Re: Newark subway
- Message Number: 757398
- Posted by: John
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:56 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Newark subway posted by Fernando Perez on August 17, 1997 at 08:13:39: The fare is $1.00, and doller bills are now accepted. The line seems to be pretty safe, I take it all the time and I never hear about any incidents. During the day on the weekend it should be perfectly safe to ride it.

Thread title: abandoned subway maps (757367)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:12:32 1997, by Al

Subject: abandoned subway maps
Message Number: 757367
Posted by: Al
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:32 1997

Does anyone have any maps on the abandoned subway lines in New York? Especially in Manhatten. Any will do. Thanks for reading this.
- Subject: Re: abandoned subway maps
- Message Number: 757372
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:36 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]abandoned subway maps posted by Al on August 17, 1997 at 14:55:22: We have lots of maps of abandoned areas/lines. See [7]Historical Maps. -Dave

Thread title: Subway Sounds (757368)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:12:33 1997, by Michael Berson

Subject: Subway Sounds
Message Number: 757368
Posted by: Michael Berson
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:33 1997

Anyone have any .WAV files of Subway Sounds?? Such as the "ding-dong" sound when the doors close... Thanks, Mike
- Subject: Re: Subway Sounds
- Message Number: 757424
- Posted by: Adam
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:16 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Subway Sounds posted by Michael Berson on August 17, 1997 at 15:25:46: I have a number of subway sounds, especially the "ding-dong" sound, on audio tape, but I do not know how to put these on my computer. If you could tell me how to I could make them into .WAV files for you.
  - Subject: Re: Subway Sounds
  - Message Number: 757434
  - Posted by: Not a vandal
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:25 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway Sounds posted by Adam on August 19, 1997 at 21:15:27: Try using sound recorder if you have a microphone and Windows 95. if you are using a mac, or do not have the sound recorder app. on your system, go to www.tucows.com, they have lots of shareware and freeware applications including sound capture and palyback utilities.
    - Subject: Subway Sounds
    - Message Number: 762216
    - Posted by: Ray O
    - Date: Fri Jan 23 09:53:16 1998
      
      Really miss the sounds of the old IND and BMT cars, the Traction motor hums the air compressor pumps, any one know of any sound recordings made?
      - Subject: Re: Subway Sounds
      - Message Number: 762230
      - Posted by: Charles Fiori
      - Date: Mon Jan 26 10:27:19 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Subway Sounds posted by Ray O on January 18, 1998 at 22:36:02: Alan Zelazo, associated with the Trolley Museum in Branford, sells audio tapes with the sounds you require. I have bought a few and the quality and price are quite reasonable. He also regularly appears at the local memorabilia shows, esp. at Liberty State Park. Try the museum (maybe someone else on this site can supply the phone number].
        
        Subject: Re: Subway Sounds
        Message Number: 762231
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Mon Jan 26 10:27:23 1998
        
        In Reply to: [7]Subway Sounds posted by Ray O on January 18, 1998 at 22:36:02: Alan Zelazo, associated with the Trolley Museum in Branford, sells audio tapes with the sounds you require. I have bought a few and the quality and price are quite reasonable. He also regularly appears at the local memorabilia shows, esp. at Liberty State Park. Try the museum (maybe someone else on this site can supply the phone number].

Thread title: Riverside Drive Viaduct (757369)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:12:34 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Riverside Drive Viaduct
Message Number: 757369
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:34 1997

Can anyone tell me if the Riverside Drive viaduct at 125th St. in Manhattan ever carried railroad tracks, or if there is a railroad viaduct anywhere in New York City, that is identical in design to the Riverside Drive viaduct? I read a book at my local library a few years ago, titled "New York City Proclaimed". It was an old book, dated in the 1960's. It contained a huge photo that took up 2 pages, of the underside of the Riverside Drive viaduct. The caption for the photo, which was on the previous page said: "Overleaf: Under the tracks of the New York Central". Is it known for old railroad viaducts, and elevated structures to be converted into street/highway viaducts? I've seen several highway viaducts that look very much like El structures and railroad viaducts. Another good example of an "El look-alike", is the 155th St. viaduct at 8th Ave., that leads to the Macombs Dam Bridge.
- Subject: Re: Riverside Drive Viaduct
- Message Number: 757383
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:45 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Riverside Drive Viaduct posted by Timothy on August 17, 1997 at 15:28:04: The Riverside Drive viaduct carried the roadway above the pre-existing mostly freight NYCRR line that can be seen crossing Spuyten Duyvil creek on a swing bridge below the Henry Hudson Bridge. It used to serve all the slaughterhouses and other industries on the West side below 59th st and beyond. It is my understanding that the connection has been severed, by the Javits Convention Center and elsewhere, so it is possible that the tracks are gone. The railroad peeked out at various spots south of 125th st: I particularly remember in Riverside Park at 116th st, walking distance from Columbia University Campus. Also, the 155th st structure IS ex elevated train related, as part of the ninth avenue el and persisting for some time after it's demise as a shuttle to the Polo Grounds.
  - Subject: Re: Riverside Drive Viaduct
  - Message Number: 757401
  - Posted by: Bill Ruiz
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:59 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Riverside Drive Viaduct posted by Gary Jacobi on August 18, 1997 at 14:12:52: Part of the old elevated railroad can be still seen in the far western part of the Chelsea district. Check over by W. 17 St. and 10th Ave.
    - Subject: Re: Riverside Drive Viaduct
    - Message Number: 757402
    - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:59 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Riverside Drive Viaduct posted by Bill Ruiz on August 19, 1997 at 14:03:24: The railroad tracks are in use by Amtrak between Spuyten Duivil(sp?:) and 34th St. to allow its Empire Service to reach Penn Station.
      - Subject: Re: Riverside Drive Viaduct
      - Message Number: 757445
      - Posted by: Fernando Perez
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:34 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Riverside Drive Viaduct posted by Gerry O'Regan on August 19, 1997 at 14:20:02: When I work the M79, we take our recovery time at 79St. under the Henry Hudson Parkway, There are some ventililation gratings there, you can see trains passing through there every so often.

Thread title: antique transit tokens (757373)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:12:37 1997, by Shirley Arther

Subject: antique transit tokens
Message Number: 757373
Posted by: Shirley Arther
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:37 1997

I have several 1919 transit tokens for sale. They are round with a hole in the center and are imprinted with "New York City Transit".
- Subject: Re: antique transit tokens
- Message Number: 757382
- Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:44 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]antique transit tokens posted by Shirley Arther on August 17, 1997 at 22:31:16: I would first take your tokens to someone who knows what they are. I doubt they date from 1919, they sound more like a recent issue. New York City Transit is a designation from the MTA era, which began in the late 60s. Prior to that most tokens had a NYC inside the words Good for One Fare with the Y punched out. Prior to 1940 any tokens bore the name of the company issuing them, but since most fares were 5�, there was little need for tokens.
  - Subject: Re: antique transit tokens
  - Message Number: 757386
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:47 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]antique transit tokens posted by Shirley Arther on August 17, 1997 at 22:31:16: Sure sounds like a modern $1.50 token to me....these were minted in 1991 but not distributed until later. Could the 1991 have been transposed in an honest error, or did someone hose you on these?

Thread title: Those Stickers... (757385)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:12:46 1997, by Jeff

Subject: Those Stickers...
Message Number: 757385
Posted by: Jeff
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:46 1997

What are the colored stickers under the subway car number plates for ?
- Subject: Re: Those Stickers...
- Message Number: 757391
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:51 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Those Stickers... posted by Jeff on August 18, 1997 at 17:44:32: The colored tape under the number boards mean different things depending on the division. On the A division, the color designates the shop to which a particular car is assigned. On the B division - the colors and/or shape might indicate that a particular modification has been completed on a car. There are no shop specific colors on B division cars.
  - Subject: Re: Those Stickers...
  - Message Number: 757404
  - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:01 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Those Stickers... posted by Steve on August 18, 1997 at 23:16:07: It seems to me that the last time I was in NYC, on the Flushing Line the R-33 double-enders had a black sticker, while the R-36 cars had a sticker similar to the 7 line color on the map. Does this make sense?

Thread title: Re: El Structures For Model Railroads (to Gary Jacobi) (757390)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:12:50 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Re: El Structures For Model Railroads (to Gary Jacobi)
Message Number: 757390
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:50 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: El Structures For Model Railroads posted by Gary Jacobi on August 18, 1997 at 00:00:47: You were wondering if I would be interested in contemporary elevated structures, similar to BART and DC Metro. I am by far more interested in the old, classic steel/iron El structures, like in Chicago, New York, Philadelphia, etc., despite the fact I own mostly modern cars. I've started assembling several "city viaduct" kits, made by Micro Engineering Company. They are currently the closest thing to an El structure I could find. In several ways, the city viaduct kits do resemble some sections of Els in Queens, and The Bronx, even though I was told that the design of the city viaduct kit was based on a railroad viaduct paralleling the Mississippi River in St. Louis, Missouri. Of course, I imagine there are other cities that may have railroad viaducts of similar design. The only problem with the kits I'm assembling, is that there are no station houses or station platforms available, that would fit the viaduct. I wasn't told if the St. Louis viaducts carried passenger, freight, or rapid transit lines.
- Subject: Re: El Structures For Model Railroads (to Gary Jacobi)
- Message Number: 757457
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:43 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: El Structures For Model Railroads (to Gary Jacobi) posted by Timothy on August 18, 1997 at 21:44:42: I certainly understand your preference; the old lines had CHARACTER. It is possible that in HO you might be able to scratch build one span and one cross-bent and make molds from these. Then you could "mass-produce" resin castings. The New York elevateds and the Kings County Elevated in Brooklyn had latticework iron stringers which were quite artistic. The "other" brooklyn elevateds used steel plate girder stringers which could be more easily modelled using inexpensive deck girder bridges available commercially. Central Valley bridge part kits have wonderfully detailed latticework box members which would make good columns. There have been a number of Model Railroader articles on elevated structures over the years, but none of them ever impressed me, who grew up watching the old iron el out my window. As you fear, they all looked like Railroad viaducts, which the El's really did NOT look like. They were much more spindly and lightweight in appearance. The stations have been accurately described in several books as being typical Victorian depots erected in midair. Having said this, I am unaware of any kit of a "typical Victorian station" that I would consider using. The station house itself was just a boxy thing for fare collection and minimal weather protection. The main decorative impact came from the varied stairways and platforms attached thereto.
  - Subject: Re: El Structures For Model Railroads (to Gary Jacobi)
  - Message Number: 757506
  - Posted by: Pat Villani
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:21 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: El Structures For Model Railroads (to Gary Jacobi) posted by Timothy on August 18, 1997 at 21:44:42: I spoke with Micro Engineering regarding their viaducts some time ago. In fact, I ordered one as an experiment. Not close enough for my tastes. I'm currently building my own el structures based on design information available from Building the New Rapid Transit System Of New York City Circa 1915 and photographs of the Jamaica Avenue el in Queens. The technique used is resin castings with RTV molds. The patterns for the molds are scratch built. I have a list of references on my web site at http://www.iop.com/~patv/railroad.html if you're interested. Also, there's the Fall Trolley Extravaganza coming up in two weeks where there'll be a session on building el structures presented by Frank Gatazka. I missed the original posting, but I hope this helps. Pat

Thread title: Re: PATH Connector (757392)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:12:52 1997, by Andrew Huie

Subject: Re: PATH Connector
Message Number: 757392
Posted by: Andrew Huie
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:52 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: PATH Connector posted by Peter Rosa on August 14, 1997 at 14:32:34: I'm not even sure the tunnel is still intact. You can still see the entrance to the tunnel on the 7th Avenue side (think it is covered by a metal pull-down gate), but on the Sixth Avenue side I can't even find it. I'm pretty sure it came out on the PATH level roughly where the A&S (or whatever they call it) entrance is, but it looks to be completely demolished. When Korvette's and Gimbels were replaced, they completely rearranged the Herald Square station.
- Subject: Re: PATH Connector
- Message Number: 757393
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:53 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: PATH Connector posted by Andrew Huie on August 19, 1997 at 02:38:09: I think you can still see where it might have been... you can tell where 33rd St. crosses the passageway from the south end to the north end of the station. Just south of there is a boarded over section of wall. If you look around there you can see "exit to street" signs pointing that way but obviously no place to go. That's probably where the end of the tunnel is.
  - Subject: Re: PATH Connector
  - Message Number: 757512
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:26 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: PATH Connector posted by David Pirmann on August 19, 1997 at 08:13:42: After reading your comment, I found that boarded-over entrance at Herald Square and looked through one of the gaps in the boards. It was dark inside, and hard to see anything, but I did make out what I believe was a tile-covered pillar, like those seen in stations. Some time I'll try to shine a flashlight through one of the gaps, hopefully I'll be able to see more.

Thread title: Today's Wall Street Journal (757394)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:12:53 1997, by aaron

Subject: Today's Wall Street Journal
Message Number: 757394
Posted by: aaron
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:53 1997

There is a funny article on Page 1 today about a guy travelling around the entire London Underground in one day. Check it out.

Thread title: SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line El structure (757395)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:12:54 1997, by Timothy

Subject: SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line El structure
Message Number: 757395
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:54 1997

There are several things I've always wanted to know about SEPTA's Market- Frankford Line El structures. Unlike the El structures in New York and Chicago, you cannot see down to the street between the track ties, as you look down from the station platform, or out the train's front window. I live near Philadelphia, and a friend of mine from New York City recently paid me a visit, and we took a ride on the Market-Frankford Line. He immediately noticed that, and said that it was the only El he's ever been on where you couldn't see the street below. Can anyone tell me why the MFL's El structure is designed like that? Also, as some of you from Philadelphia may have noticed, the Market- Frankford Line is undergoing a major rehabilitation. On the Frankford portion of the El, they removed the lattice, and/or covered it over with concrete beams, but left the support columns as is, and just painted them. I feel that the concrete beams ruined the El structure's character. I was told that the same thing is going to be done on the West Philadelphia portion of the El within the next year or two. Why can't an El structure be rebuilt and still keep its original charm? Also on the West Philadelphia portion of the El, almost all of the original stairway railings were replaced with stainless steel ones during the mid and late 1980's, which I feel also ruined the El's original charm.
- Subject: Re: SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line El structure
- Message Number: 757396
- Posted by: Frank Gatazka
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:55 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line El structure posted by Timothy on August 19, 1997 at 10:22:33: When the Market-Frankford El was built, it was decided to use the solid ballasted deck to reduce noise. This method of construction is far more costly than the open deck construction common to New York, Boston and Chicago. Although quieter, the solid ballasted deck does not allow for drainage as does the open girder construction, with the result that the underpinning structure, which is basically the same as an open El, corrodes. Hence the need for rebuilding. When it was decided to rebuild the Frankford portion of the line, the main consideration was cost coupled with structural integrity. Charm and railfan appeal did not, and I'm sure does not figure into the equation. It is interesting to note that solid ballasted deck construction was considered for the elevated portions of the dual contract subway extensions, but was rejected due to the high cost. There were, and are portions of solid ballasted deck elevated in Chicago, with ornamental concrete or iron structure, where the governing municipality required an improved appearance and quiter operation. New York City has some solid ballasted El construction, such as the ornamental viaduct over Queens Blvd. on the Corona Line. This structure is undergoing rebuilding at present.
  - Subject: Re: SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line El structure
  - Message Number: 757405
  - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:02 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line El structure posted by Frank Gatazka on August 19, 1997 at 12:13:36: The concrete deck construction was also used for most of the later el structures in Boston. In particular the portion of the Lechmere Viaduct over the street, the connector from the Longfellow Bridge to the Beacon Hill Tunnel and the flyover at Beachmont were all constructed this way. My feeling is that the concrete deck acts as a sounding board, amplifying and spreading the 'rumble' while absorbing the higher pitched sounds. An open deck structure certainly keeps the car interior quieter, while direct fixation to a concrete deck reflects most of the sound back into the car. Boston's Orange Line has many good examples of this type.
    - Subject: Re: SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line El structure
    - Message Number: 757419
    - Posted by: Bobw
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:13 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line El structure posted by Timothy on August 19, 1997 at 10:22:33: The answers on the concrete deck, the concrete beams, etc have already been given. Here is more info. The Market St el was opened in 1907, the Frankford el in '22. There are subtle differences in construction. The Frankford el was a municipal project and was alleged to have substandard steel, etc, while the Market el was privately built and today is still in fair condition. While Frankford's support beams and deck began to show wear in the mid-70's (and some of you may recall the slow orders on the line at the time - at one point, the whole el was a slow zone), the columns didn't show the same problems. It was not determined why until an opportunity came along in '77. A portion of the el was relocated into the median of the new I-95 (from the portal at Front & Arch to just south of Girard station), with a new station at Spring Garden replacing the former stop at Fairmount. Engineers had a little over a mile of el structure to play with and learn why the problems occurred once the line was relocated. The abandoned structure was loaded with six times the design load before failure was noted and the columns were found to be more than adequate. Thus, when the rehab was planned, the deck and its support beams were replaced with precast concrete panels (and direct fixation rail), while the original columns were cleaned and repainted. Some column work was needed where stations were being rehabbed, but for the most part, the original 1922 columns are still there. Market is a different story. The columns were at first thought to be OK and were slated to be saved in much the same way as on the Frankford end, with the deck and supports to be replaced. The street below is divided into an odd lane configuration because of the column placement (not a problem in '07 when few cars were around). The wisdom of relying on 90+ year old steel to support a structure designed to last as least as long as the current one was also questioned heavily. After some rethought, the decision was made to evaluate a completely new column system (with single column "bents" in the center of Market St) which would allow a better lane configuration below and more dependable structural support above. When costs were compared, the single-column option was only slightly more costly than the rehab (ease of construction was perhaps the major factor, along with the unknowns associated with trying to restore old steel to a new condition). Thus, the new el, slated to begin work in '99, will be completely new.

Thread title: R-32/32A (757397)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:12:56 1997, by Wayne Johnson

Subject: R-32/32A
Message Number: 757397
Posted by: Wayne Johnson
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:12:56 1997

This is probably a question for Steve, but I welcome an answer from anyone who has it. I would like to know the difference (if any) between the R-32 and R-32A as delivered. I can usually spot small differences, but I could never spot any with these models - I suspect there is no visual difference. I do know that the R-32's from #3800-3949 originally had illuminated advertisement racks, but thats only half of the R-32 cars. For those who don't know #3350-3649 are R-32A and #3650-3949 are R-32. If there was a mechanical ifference, can we assume that they are now the same mechanically since the MK rebuilding. I'm also aware of the 10 that were rebuilt by GE. Thanks, Wayne
- Subject: Re: R-32/32A
- Message Number: 757406
- Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:02 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]R-32/32A posted by Wayne Johnson on August 19, 1997 at 12:29:29: It seems to me that the original order was for 300 cars and the 32A was just a follow-on order for which a new contract was cut. Up to that time the combined order was the largest in the industry. Got any info on this, Steve? Gerry
  - Subject: Re: R-32/32A
  - Message Number: 757407
  - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:03 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: R-32/32A posted by Gerry O'Regan on August 19, 1997 at 14:38:15: That sounds like it would be correct, but then if the cars were assembled/delivered in order by fleet numbers - then the R-32A's would have come before the R-32's. I don't know - especially since I was born a year later.
    - Subject: Re: R-32/32A
    - Message Number: 757409
    - Posted by: subway-buff
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:05 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]R-32/32A posted by Wayne Johnson on August 19, 1997 at 12:29:29: As delievered, According to NYC Subways Cars by James Greller, the R32A cars were numbered3350-3649, and the R32 were numbered 3650-3949. According to this book the R32A were delivered first. An interesting trivia piece: the GE rebuilds just covered the local/express lights and the Colored marker lights, while the M & K cars just have the small sign. Inside you can tell a GE rebuild by the lighted ad racks vs old stylle lights in the M&K rebuilds.. These GE cars usually run with R38 cars. The difference between R32 and R38 is that the r32 has the "ripples" all the way up while the R38 cars have a smooth top and "rippled" bottom( below the windows.) (Steve- Hope I didn't step on your turf).

Thread title: Low Volatage Cars (757408)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:04 1997, by Zack

Subject: Low Volatage Cars
Message Number: 757408
Posted by: Zack
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:04 1997

i have heard he term Low Voltage cars are the Lov V's by any chance. what lines were the run on when were they retired (i'm not from the NY vincinty so i dont know thes things:()
- Subject: Re: Low Volatage Cars
- Message Number: 757414
- Posted by: subway-buff
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:09 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Low Volatage Cars posted by Zack on August 19, 1997 at 18:15:50: The first Cars were High Voltage- meaning that 600V ran through the Motorman's control cab. In case of accident- one "fried" motorman. The Lo- V cars were introduced on the IRT. They used a transformer to reduce the voltage in the cab to just 24 volts. They were called Low Voltage or Lo-V for short, The originals were called High-V. All Cars today use this system (including all subway cars nationwide,be it NYC, Philladelphia, Atlanta, etc.) There are no High-V cars in today's system. Another piece of Trivia: The IRT Lo-V cars were the first with a center door, These doors were cut into the original car which required adding a steel underbracer across the car. All Subway cars today are of this "gondola" type- meaning you could cut off the roof and the car would still hold up since the undercarraige supported the car. (This info courtesy of Transit Musuem Guided tour.)

Thread title: OPTO and End Doors Being Locked?? (757410)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:06 1997, by Lou from Brooklyn

Subject: OPTO and End Doors Being Locked??
Message Number: 757410
Posted by: Lou from Brooklyn
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:06 1997

It is my understanding that end doors on cars that are 75 Feet are locked (R44 and up IND/BMT) becuase of the huge gap when the cars go though an interlocking (switch). In case of ememergancy, the Train Operator or Conductor (or Emergancy Workers) can through a switch that is in any cab to unlock the end doors (and if someone is outside the car there is a manual switch that can be thrown to unlock THAT door only). My question that in case of an OPTO (One Person Train Operation) accident and the Train Operator is incapacitated and can not through this switch, would this put the customers in danager in case of fire or such (on the car, I know safest place to be is in the car not the tracks)?? Has this been addressed at any point in considering OPTO? Thanks for listening
- Subject: Re: OPTO and End Doors Being Locked??
- Message Number: 757452
- Posted by: Dan Lawrence
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:39 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]OPTO and End Doors Being Locked?? posted by Lou from Brooklyn on August 19, 1997 at 18:18:02: In Baltimore the only locked doors are the end-of train doors (for obvious reasons), car end doors are not locked, but every door has a "Do Not Pass" sign on it. Of course, if you know, you can walk through the train. A departure from past practice is that the end doors are not sliding type, so every door needs to be opened and closed. The cars, incendentally, are 75 feet long (and trains do go through curves and crossovers) so one must be careful when passing through. Needless to say, the MTA prefers that this info not pass to the riders.

Thread title: Exploring and phtographing the NYCTA (757411)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:06 1997, by Henry R. Groves

Subject: Exploring and phtographing the NYCTA
Message Number: 757411
Posted by: Henry R. Groves
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:06 1997

I am visiting New York in early October. I am a subway fan and would like to go on exploring trips in the New York subway. What are the dangers? Any restrictions on picture taking? I did run in trouble in the seventies when I attempted to take some pictures. Any information on the subject will be greatly appreciated.
- Subject: Re: Exploring and phtographing the NYCTA
- Message Number: 757416
- Posted by: Allan
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:10 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Exploring and phtographing the NYCTA posted by Henry R. Groves on August 19, 1997 at 18:23:10: The question regarding photos on the system will probably never end. So to repeat (and expand upon a bit) what Brian Munroe posted here a short while back from a letter he got from the TA, I have obtained a pamphlet (at the 370 Jay St Information office in the lobby) which gives quite a bit of information. Please note that "the Authority" as indicated below can mean either the NYCTA or MaBstoa or both. I intend to carry one of these pamphlets with me anytime I go to take pictures in the system. These are excerpts from the pamphlet: Rules of Conduct Rules governing the conduct and safety of the public in the use of the facilities of the New York City Transit Authority and Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority. NYCRR Chapter XXI Metropolitan Transportation Authority Subchapter C - Conduct and Safety of the Public Part 1050 Section 1050.2 Definitions (b) "Facilities" includes all property and equipment, including without limitation, rights of way and related trackage, rails, signal, power, fuel, communication and ventilation systems, power plants, stations, signage, storage yards, depots, repair and maintenance shops, yards, offices and other real estate or personalty used or held for or incidental to the operation, rehabilitation or improvement of any rapid transit railroad or omnibus line of the Authority. (e) "Conveyance" includes any subway or rapid transit car or train, locomotive, omnibus or other vehicle previously used or held for use by the Authority as a means of transportation of passengers. Section 1050.9 Restricted areas and activities (a) No person, except as specifically authorized by the Authority, shall enter or attempt to enter into any area not open to the public, including but not limited to train operator's cabs, conductor's cabs, bus operator's seat location, token booths, closed-off areas, mechanical or equipment rooms, concession stands, storage areas, interior rooms, tracks, roadbeds, tunnels, plants, shops, barns, train yards, garages, depots or any area marked with a sign restricting access or indicating a dangerous environment. (c) Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used. Members of the press holding valid identification issued by the New York City Police Department are hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance with these Rules.
  - Subject: Re: Exploring and phtographing the NYCTA
  - Message Number: 757427
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:20 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Exploring and phtographing the NYCTA posted by Henry R. Groves on August 19, 1997 at 18:23:10: As another poster mentioned, photo taking is legal as long as you don't use a tripod. You might want to print out the legalese and take it with you in case you are hassled, although after a few years of subway "field trips" by myself and with others the only place I was hassled was Jamaica LIRR station (not a subway station). Use common sense and don't get in anyone's way. Also in the archives you'll find people's lists of good places to go and take pictures. I've been working on these into a web page but haven't finished it yet, so here are my top sites (in no particular order) 1. Queensboro Plaza (N/7) - N ride from tunnel up to Qb'P - ride rear car for good view of Qboro Bridge 2. Broadway/East New York (J/M/Z/L level. A/C/E is downstairs.) - Atlantic Avenue (L) 3. Marcy Avenue (J/M/Z) and Myrtle Avenue (J/M/Z) 4. Anywhere on the Brighton Line (Cortelyou Road is nice)(D maybe Q) 5. Stillwell Avenue (B/D/F/N) - West 8th Street overpass (D/F) 6. Whitlock/Elder Avenue (6) 7. East 180th Street (2/5) and Dyre Avenue line- Gun Hill Road (5) 8. 125th St./Dyckman St./215th St./225th St. (1) 9. Corona Yard ped. bridge (at Willets Point Shea Stadium) (7) 10. Rockaway line (ride it for the scenery - recently been unsafe off-hours) (A/S) 11. 9th Avenue/36-38th St. Yard area (B/M) 12. Smith/9Th Street (F/G) 13. City Hall Loop (6) 14. Astoria Blvd/Ditmars Blvd (N) - watch Amtrak trains on the Hell Gate Bridge 15. 97th Street overpass over Metro-North main line (97th St. & Park) 16. Williamsburg & Manhattan Bridge runs... (J/M/Z, and B/D/Q respectively) All of these are safe during most reasonable times of the day. Trainspotting is best during rush hours because of the sheer volume of trains (check out Elder Avenue in the Bronx around 9:30 am) and you won't have to wait too long for the next train if you want to get off and shoot some pictures. If you want to write me privately maybe we can set up a field trip. --Dave

Thread title: More Historical Questions (757415)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:09 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: More Historical Questions
Message Number: 757415
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:09 1997

A silly question or two: In almost every book about the system, the reason for the TA buying those ex-SIRT cars back in 54 or so was that the BMT was very short on equipment at the time. This may be a silly question, but exactly why were they short on equipment??? Hadn't the BMT fully equipped their system??JUst curious.....
- Subject: Re: More Historical Questions
- Message Number: 757455
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:41 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]More Historical Questions posted by Lou from Middletown on August 19, 1997 at 18:48:29: Thought the SIRT equip was bought as the under-the-Narrows connection was being contemplated.
  - Subject: Re: More Historical Questions
  - Message Number: 757482
  - Posted by: Dave
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:03 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]More Historical Questions posted by Lou from Middletown on August 19, 1997 at 18:48:29: One reason why the BMT was short on equipment was because they retired many of their wooden cars when they abandoned el service. Increased ridership on the remaining BMT lines taxed their steel fleet beyond it's limit. The Culver and West End lines were so short of steel cars that they ran wooden el cars in shuttle service between Coney Island and the Bensonhurst stations to keep a sufficient number of steel cars available for service into Manhatten via the subway. Add to this the fact that around 1950, the BMT aquired the entire Astoria line, extending the steel run from Queens Plaza to Astoria. Since the SIRT (B&O) equipment was very similar to the A-B steels, it made sense for the BMT to pick up this equipment and run it with their existing steels to partially relieve the equipment shortage.
    - Subject: Re: More Historical Questions
    - Message Number: 757529
    - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:40 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: More Historical Questions posted by Charles Fiori on August 20, 1997 at 14:33:39: The SIRT equipment was bought with a BMT connection in mind, when it was bought new! The sale to the BMT (NYCTA) in the 50s was merely to get extra cars as noted in the other posts.

Thread title: Ghost trains (757417)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:11 1997, by Not a vandal

Subject: Ghost trains
Message Number: 757417
Posted by: Not a vandal
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:11 1997

Okay, you can guess by my name that I am a graffiti writer, and most of you hate graffiti writers (I assume). But my question is, Are there any old scrap trains out there somewhere who survived "the buff" and the white-out back in the 80's?? Did the MTA really destroy all of the artwork that made the New york city subway famous for its asthetics (as well as its operations). I am simply interested because I feel that although it may have been a plaugue to transit, It should have been preserved on an actual train -at least one! Rather than only in photgraphs. Maybe the transit museum should include a graffiti wholecar exhibit! (When hell freezes over...) HaHa!
- Subject: Re: Ghost trains
- Message Number: 757420
- Posted by: Zack
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:13 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Ghost trains posted by Not a vandal on August 19, 1997 at 20:16:25: i think it would be kinda neat to show somphting of that nature as it did repersent a era in New York City Transit. i myself who despises vandelism would like to see what it was like with the grafetti in kinda like a before/after repersantion of what it was like. P.S what happens to trains nowdays that have graffetti on them if there stored in a yard and just "sitting" there and roting away do they get cleaned or are they scrapped just left AS-IS????
  - Subject: Re: Ghost trains
  - Message Number: 757423
  - Posted by: Jeff
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:16 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Ghost trains posted by Not a vandal on August 19, 1997 at 20:16:25: Here's an idea. They should get a train that was vandalized then paint over half the train with the regular paint scheme to show the difference and put it in the transit museum
    - Subject: Re: Ghost trains
    - Message Number: 757428
    - Posted by: David Pirmann
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:21 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Ghost trains posted by Not a vandal on August 19, 1997 at 20:16:25: Graffiti on trains that are still in service is cleaned off and the trains returned to service. You can see some graffitied cars at the Bush Terminal scrapyard in Brooklyn (see [7]Scrapyards) and at Concourse Yard (if you can get in there) (see [8]Concourse Yard) -Dave
      - Subject: Re: Ghost trains
      - Message Number: 757433
      - Posted by: Not a vandal
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Ghost trains posted by Zack on August 19, 1997 at 20:47:07: Not to be boastful, or sound as if I encourage vandalism, but trains still do get painted every now and then. However, these are so-called "Rush-jobs" because they are painted quickly so as not to land the writers in jail. They are nothing compared to the masterpieces of the early to mid-eighties. You can see them at the art-crimes site if you are interested. And, as david mentioned, they are quickly cleaned and returned to service.
        
        Subject: Re: Ghost trains
        Message Number: 757458
        Posted by: Graffiti IS WRONG
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Ghost trains posted by Not a vandal on August 19, 1997 at 20:16:25: I am sorry Sir/Madam this is NOT ART. I bet you endorse all the "taging" of the windows of every type of transit in this great city.
        
        Subject: Re: Ghost trains
        Message Number: 757492
        Posted by: Schnorb
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:10 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Ghost trains posted by David Pirmann on August 19, 1997 at 22:50:17: Blahh !

Thread title: Rapid Transit/Commuter Models (757418)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:12 1997, by Matt

Subject: Rapid Transit/Commuter Models
Message Number: 757418
Posted by: Matt
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:12 1997

I'm looking for people interested in O SCALE models of New York Subway cars, NJT Arrows, LIRR&Metro-North MUs, PATH cars (I'm already working on PA-4s), and some others. If you're interested in HO scale, let me know too. Please send an e-mail to: MTA Monte@aol.com Thanks for your interest.
- Subject: Re: Rapid Transit/Commuter Models
- Message Number: 757437
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:27 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Rapid Transit/Commuter Models posted by Matt on August 19, 1997 at 20:21:41: Yes! Keep us posted.

Thread title: Black Paint on Buses (757421)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:14 1997, by Jeff

Subject: Black Paint on Buses
Message Number: 757421
Posted by: Jeff
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:14 1997

Did anyone notice the ugly paintjob that the NYCTA has put on the newly painted buses. The windows, the top half of the doors and the part of the back windows that get the depot sticker were all painted white. If anyone knows why the MTA did this, if it was a mistake and if it will be fixed please respond. P.S. if anyone has connections tell them to use more black paint!!
- Subject: Re: Black Paint on Buses
- Message Number: 757430
- Posted by: Zack
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:22 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Black Paint on Buses posted by Jeff on August 19, 1997 at 20:56:14: what type of buses are getting this scheme and are there any pictures????
  - Subject: Re: Black Paint on Buses
  - Message Number: 757431
  - Posted by: Fernando Perez
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:23 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Black Paint on Buses posted by Jeff on August 19, 1997 at 20:56:14: While I dont have the connections to get it changed, the new paint scheme is to make the buses more visible to avoid accidents. It was chosen because since the 8400's as you may know the manufacturer's added the extra white at the air conditioner panel, so to make the buses more alike and "newer" plus for safety reasons this new scheme has been chosen. I agree with you and think it really looks bad.
    - Subject: Re: Black Paint on Buses
    - Message Number: 757444
    - Posted by: Fernando Perez
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:33 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Black Paint on Buses posted by Zack on August 20, 1997 at 01:46:05: All rebuilts and overhauls are getting them as go to the overhaul base shops.207 St. and East New York are some places you can go to check it out.
      - Subject: Re: Black Paint on Buses
      - Message Number: 757447
      - Posted by: trolleybus
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:35 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Black Paint on Buses posted by Fernando Perez on August 20, 1997 at 10:17:58: this paint scheme is being done to save money. they only have to wrap the buses once in the paint shop.
        
        Subject: Re: Black Paint on Buses
        Message Number: 757448
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Black Paint on Buses posted by Jeff on August 19, 1997 at 20:56:14: Jeff, I agree with you. This new paint scheme looks horrible to me. It's OK on newly delivered buses such as the 8750-9349 group, but many of the older RTS's have been repainted and they are painting the entire door frame white and also the outline of the opening portion of the drivers window is painted white on some buses also. So it looks like every thing that was black is now white. Up until about two years ago they used to paint the windows frames black also, but thank heaven they stopped that or else we may be suffering through white window frames also. I think the new MTA logo is OK, but I think they missed when they rename the agency and applied this new paint scheme to the buses. It does seem to go well on the Orions and New Flyers.
        
        Subject: Re: Black Paint on Buses
        Message Number: 757483
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Black Paint on Buses posted by Wayne Johnson on August 20, 1997 at 12:20:38: Different mode, but the same was true when R-46s had those neat black fronts covered over. Much cooler car with the black on them.
        
        Subject: Re: Black Paint on Buses
        Message Number: 757488
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:07 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Black Paint on Buses posted by Charles Fiori on August 21, 1997 at 14:01:33: Yes, they (and R-44's) did look pretty cool.

Thread title: SUBWAY SCREENSAVERS:ANY NEW INFO?? (757429)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:21 1997, by Nick

Subject: SUBWAY SCREENSAVERS:ANY NEW INFO??
Message Number: 757429
Posted by: Nick
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:21 1997

A few months ago there was some talk about creating a subway screensaver. I was wondering, did anyone persue/look in to the idea?

Thread title: Re: Ghost trains (good idea Jeff) (757432)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:24 1997, by Not a vandal

Subject: Re: Ghost trains (good idea Jeff)
Message Number: 757432
Posted by: Not a vandal
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:24 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Ghost trains posted by Jeff on August 19, 1997 at 21:01:25: Or better yet, Jeff, they could get a 3 section display: 1/3 0f the car could be vandalized, 1/3 cold be "buffed" (showing the inadequate removal process on the older flat sided cars), and 1/3 could be shiny graffiti-resistant white! Now there is an idea! Then again, that would be one ugly lookin train!

Thread title: HI-V (757435)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:26 1997, by Zack

Subject: HI-V
Message Number: 757435
Posted by: Zack
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:26 1997

when where the HI-V's retired and how many were there and are any saved
- Subject: Re: HI-V
- Message Number: 757440
- Posted by: Dave
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:30 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]HI-V posted by Zack on August 20, 1997 at 03:40:23: The Hi-V's were used on the West side locals and Broadway-7th Ave. Express lines until 1959. A few were used in work service until 1960. According to "They Moved the Millions " by Ed Davis, Sr., none were preserved in museums.
  - Subject: Re: HI-V
  - Message Number: 757530
  - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:41 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: HI-V posted by Dave on August 20, 1997 at 09:01:00: Two Hi-V cars do exist in museums. 3352 at Seashore is one of the original 'Gibbs' all steel cars from the first days of the subway. The car at Shore Line (Branford) is an ACF deck roof car numbered in the 3600s. Although both of these predate the 'standard' Hi-V cars, they do belong in that classification.
    - Subject: Re: HI-V
    - Message Number: 757531
    - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:42 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: HI-V posted by Dave on August 20, 1997 at 09:01:00: Dave's roster indicates 676 motor cars including steel test car 3342. The Gibbs cars account for 300 of these, and the deck roof cars another 50, leaving only 325 of the 'standard' variety. The 400 'composite' cars were also Hi-V cars but they finished their careers on the els. All conventional el cars on the IRT were Hi-V.

Thread title: Re: Transit Museum Cars & City Hall Station (757436)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:27 1997, by Zack

Subject: Re: Transit Museum Cars & City Hall Station
Message Number: 757436
Posted by: Zack
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:27 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Transit Museum Cars & City Hall Station posted by William A. Padron on August 16, 1997 at 14:55:12: is city hall going to be an actual station once more or is it going to remain a tourest attraction

Thread title: Re: Low Voltage Cars (757438)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:28 1997, by Frank Gatazka

Subject: Re: Low Voltage Cars
Message Number: 757438
Posted by: Frank Gatazka
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:28 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Low Volatage Cars posted by subway-buff on August 19, 1997 at 18:44:03: Your comments about the "gondola" construction of present subway cars may not be entirely correct. When the first steel IRT cars were built, they were designed by William Gibbs (of the PRR) and featured the gondola construction technique. They were designed as typical railroad coaches of the day, with end vestibules. The side doors were cut in later, and as you stated, this necessitated the use of the girder stiffeners. The "deck roof Hi V's" followed similar construction, but did not require the girder since they were built with integral U shaped stiffeners. All subsequent orders of first generation IRT cars, standard body Hi V's, "Flivvers", Lo-V's, etc. were delivered with the center door installed. When the BMT (then BRT) designed the A-B "Standards", Louis Stillwell used a truss girder type construction that replaced the gondola design. This was much lighter, and allowed for the multiple door openings directly into the car sides. The D types and the IND R1-9's used similar construction techniques. Starting with the R-10's, the LAHT (low alloy, high tensile steel) cars used a welded body instead of the rivetted style, but the pressed truss frames remained. I don't know how the stainless cars from the R32 and R38 and up are built, but I doubt that they employ the gondola construction, as this is very heavy and is archaic railroad practice. My guess is that they use a similar construction technique pioneered by Stillwell. Maybe someone out there knows the answer.

Thread title: Re: Transit Museum News & City Hall Station (757439)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:29 1997, by David Pirmann

Subject: Re: Transit Museum News & City Hall Station
Message Number: 757439
Posted by: David Pirmann
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:29 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Transit Museum Cars & City Hall Station posted by Zack on August 20, 1997 at 04:01:03: It was intended to be used as part of the Transit Museum, not a station. They are(were) restoring the entrances from the street which were filled in and paved over long ago. There was some talk about them building a plexiglass wall along the platform edge for safety and noise reduction but I don't know if this has been committed to. Either way with the shakeup at the Transit Museum nothing is going on at City Hall right now. I've heard the project is on hold. In other Transit Museum news, there is a job posting up right now for a Senior Curator (see the NYCT web site for details). I've also gotten word that there are two book projects in the works and the gift shop is being outsourced. Hopefully the company who will be running it is transit-aware and will get some serious items in there and lose some of the subway t-shirts and toys. (If they're reading this, consider picking up the slack in the New York City books market - both transit history and general history - that New York Bound Books left behind them when they closed.)
- Subject: Re: Transit Museum News & City Hall Station
- Message Number: 757456
- Posted by: Charles Fiori
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:42 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Transit Museum News & City Hall Station posted by David Pirmann on August 20, 1997 at 08:09:00: Nice call, David. I was always dismayed when Marvin Sommerfield and Aubrey Surgeon, who ran the transit museum when it first opened, brought in all these plastic train whistles, etc. Stick to roll signs (did you ever see the storage cage at the west end of the museum mezz) or other serious transit material. Price it right and it will travel. And, if you have any pull, O Wise One, get them to track down some bus stuff, such as destination signs, etc.
  - Subject: Re: Transit Museum News & City Hall Station
  - Message Number: 757459
  - Posted by: David L.
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:44 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Transit Museum News & City Hall Station posted by David Pirmann on August 20, 1997 at 08:09:00: Does anyone know why there is a age requirement(at least 18) to volunteer at the Transit Museum?
    - Subject: Re: Transit Museum News & City Hall Station
    - Message Number: 757461
    - Posted by: Zack
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:46 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Transit Museum News & City Hall Station posted by Charles Fiori on August 20, 1997 at 14:41:59: if they had bolth that would rock-- some of the cheap syuff and some books transit artafacts sutch as sings(bulth car,and station) old maps manuals etc that the real railfans would byu that normally get thrown out i think it would be great
      - Subject: Re: Transit Museum News & City Hall Station
      - Message Number: 757481
      - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:02 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Transit Museum News & City Hall Station posted by Charles Fiori on August 20, 1997 at 14:41:59: While as a dire hard subway buff I completely agree with your points, the Transit Museum is not just trying to reach out to subway buffs. They want a larger general audience to come and visit, and hopefully spend money in the gift shop to add to the museum's coffers. I am sure that this is why you will see, and I think continue to see, the inexpensive items that the museum currently offers. As an example, many schools offer day trips to the museum as field trips or part of the cirriculum; these kids certainly can't afford the high prices the museum would charge for roll signs and historical artifacts. But they can afford the little things, and these little purchases add up. The museum commands high prices in general because the gift shop is one of the prime ways the museum makes any money. It would be nice, however, to see a greater mix of historical stuff with the little trinkets. The Museum used to hold an auction and tag sale every 2 years. There should have been one by now (I don't even remember when the last one was). A year or two ago, when I asked the museum why there hasn't been one, they told me that the auction and tag sale cost them a great deal to set up, both in terms of $$$ and people, and the sales generated just barely made up the costs. At the last auction, I bid for, and "won", the opportunity to spend a day with the crew of the Track Geometry Car TGC-2. At that same auction, a new-look bus was put up for auction and was purchased by someone looking to restore it. I think the winning bid was $900. I don't remember the shape the bus was in. There was even an R-22 offered, starting bid of $3,000, but no takers. Anyway, it would be nice to see another one of these auctions take place. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Transit Museum News & City Hall Station
        Message Number: 757505
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Transit Museum News & City Hall Station posted by Zack on August 20, 1997 at 20:07:46: Yea, that always bothered me that the Tansit Museum was always curiously lacking in transit memorabilia. There is a book store in Penn Station which has as many or more books on trains and NY as the TM (I bought a couple of nice ones on the LIRR, Reading and others there), and many old signs that could be sold by the exhibit are instead being sold by old sign sellers (for lack of a better name) on Houston Street (I even saw one sign from a Third Avenue El train to 149 Street-3 Ave). I felt if they improved their book collection and sold some of the stuff collected from station renovations they could increase sales. I certainly would LOVE to buy an old sign pointing to routes which no longer exist or have been changed.
        
        Subject: Re: Transit Museum News & City Hall Station
        Message Number: 757509
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Transit Museum News & City Hall Station posted by Andrew Huie on August 22, 1997 at 02:49:02: Where on Houston Street? Would love to track this stuff down.

Thread title: Re: Ghost trains (graffitti is vandalism) (757441)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:31 1997, by Ray

Subject: Re: Ghost trains (graffitti is vandalism)
Message Number: 757441
Posted by: Ray
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:31 1997

In Reply to: [5]Ghost trains posted by Not a vandal on August 19, 1997 at 20:16:25: You are not a 'graffiti writer', you are a petty criminal. Don't give taxpayers your 'art' nonsense. You and other cretins like you see nothing wrong with vadalizing public and private property. I am sure that this kind of behavior makes you feel proud, because nothing else in your dead-end life does. What makes it even sadder is that you write like you might be a young adult that enjoys stooping down to the level of a belligerant street criminal. You are proving nothing and your 'tags' tell everyone that you desire attention that normal activities can't give you because you enjoy being a misfit and a low self-esteem loser.

Thread title: Re: Ghost trains(what absolute gall you have) (757443)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:32 1997, by Bingo

Subject: Re: Ghost trains(what absolute gall you have)
Message Number: 757443
Posted by: Bingo
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:32 1997

In Reply to: [5]Ghost trains posted by Not a vandal on August 19, 1997 at 20:16:25: My God. Only in New York. ONLY in New York. I find nothing "esthetic" about graffiti. Your "medium" was public property and you VANDALISED it. The way it looked is irrelevant. You defaced public transit property. Don't try to hide behind this cheap "expressive freedom" facade. It will get you nowhere. It was people like you who gave the New York transit a bad name in the 70's when you were busy "modifying" the R-32's.
- Subject: Re: Ghost trains(what absolute gall you have)
- Message Number: 757451
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:38 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Ghost trains(what absolute gall you have) posted by Bingo on August 20, 1997 at 09:45:34: I wish it was "Only in NY", but the sad fact is that there is a growing undeserved "respect" for graffiti on the west coast too. Last weeks news included way too much coverage on the officially sanctioned re-graffitiing of a not too long ago cleaned up horror called the graffiti pit in Venice, Ca. Venice is a wierdo hangout, much as the villiage used to be, but as I said, this seems to be a trend.
  - Subject: Re: Ghost trains(what absolute gall you have)
  - Message Number: 757467
  - Posted by: Not a vandal
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:51 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Ghost trains(what absolute gall you have) posted by Bingo on August 20, 1997 at 09:45:34: As to prevent severe flaming in response to the Ghost trains thread, I will withdraw peacefully from this discussion. However, I will not leave without voicing my "opinion." I respect those who responded to my post in a non-defmatory way, I do not respect those who attacked me for "mentioning" that graffiti [to myself] is an "art." If these individuals would have expressed their opinions with regards to the nature of my original posting I would have been indifrent to their comments. I dont think anyone here has the right to pass judgement on graffiti. I do not belive anyone has the right to comment on my "interest" in graffiti the way bingo and Gary did, nor does anyone have the right to disrespect my character or personality without actually knowing who I am. If these individuals kept an open mind as to what I consider "art" (not non-driscriptive and vague refrences to "tagging") they might realize that some graffiti writers are contributing to society by destroying the old stigmas of graffiti as mere "tags" on private property. I have respect for law enforcement. I have respect for private and public property. I have NO respect for people who cannot express their opinions like reasonable adults. All kidding aside, the jokes I made about the transit exhibit and the modern transit vandalism were simply that, "Jokes." And of course, just as the 1st amendment garauntees that I can express these opinions it also gives those aforementioned individuals the right to say what their little hearts desire. Please visit [6]Artcrimes for more information about what "graffit art" really is. Thanks for your time. -Not a Vandal, but an Artist
    - Subject: Re: Ghost trains(what absolute gall you have)
    - Message Number: 757474
    - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:56 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Ghost trains(what absolute gall you have) posted by Not a vandal on August 20, 1997 at 22:58:43: I personally would never judge you because of your interests. One of our (my friends and I) saying are "Whatever floats your boat" - But as far as tagging on public property - most of us know that's wrong and makes for an unsightly subway. I'm glad the TA has graffiti under control and the graffiti artists need to realize tagging the subway is not within their (or anyone's) rights.
      - Subject: Re: Ghost trains(what absolute gall you have)
      - Message Number: 757476
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Ghost trains(what absolute gall you have) posted by Not a vandal on August 20, 1997 at 22:58:43: I guess I tarred with too wide a brush; I had no attention to attack you, or even your interest in this subject. I personally don't like to see graffiti because it makes me and my family feel unsafe and/or threatened. This is OUR problem to solve. My beef is with the media going out of it's way, as in the Venice coverage, to start it up again. I hesitate to say something this supportative, but I figure I owe you for having offended: Where would Archaeologists be today if the "owners" of the cave walls in France and the Southweat had gone out and obliterated the graffiti we now call cave paintings?

Thread title: BUS VIDEOS WANTED (757449)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:37 1997, by steve lowenthal

Subject: BUS VIDEOS WANTED
Message Number: 757449
Posted by: steve lowenthal
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:37 1997

LOOKING FOR BUS VIDEOS ,,,CAN ANYONE GUIDE ME IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION
- Subject: BUS VIDEOS WANTED
- Message Number: 757450
- Posted by: steve lowenthal
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:37 1997
  
  LOOKING FOR BUS VIDEOS ,,,CAN ANYONE GUIDE ME IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION

Thread title: Re: Low Voltage Cars (Spelling Corrected) (757453)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:40 1997, by Dan Lawrence

Subject: Re: Low Voltage Cars (Spelling Corrected)
Message Number: 757453
Posted by: Dan Lawrence
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:40 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: Low Volatage Cars posted by subway-buff on August 19, 1997 at 18:44:03: Just a comment: The 24 volt power for the control circuits was provided not by a transformer (it won't work with DC) but by a motor-generator set or a battery (usually kept charged by a circuit from the air compressor).

Thread title: Narrow-gauge LIRR tracks? (757454)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:41 1997, by Peter Rosa

Subject: Narrow-gauge LIRR tracks?
Message Number: 757454
Posted by: Peter Rosa
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:41 1997

While riding the LIRR from Long Island City to Jamaica, I saw what appear to be the remnants of some narrow-gauge tracks. They are in and around an abandoned factory complex, now greatly dilapidated, near the Kosziusko (sp?) Bridge. Were these an LIRR operation, or some sort of private industrial line? BTW - The line to LIC is definitely an interesting ride!
- Subject: Re: Narrow-gauge LIRR tracks?
- Message Number: 757485
- Posted by: Todd Minsk
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:05 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Narrow-gauge LIRR tracks? posted by Peter Rosa on August 20, 1997 at 14:11:47: That was the Phelps-Dodge copper facility; I can't remember if it was a "refinery" or some other related function.

Thread title: does sirt connect to the TA (757462)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:47 1997, by Zack

Subject: does sirt connect to the TA
Message Number: 757462
Posted by: Zack
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:47 1997

is there anyway like a tunnel or sutch that SIRT can connect to the NYCTA???? and was there ever an idea or a closed connection???
- Subject: Re: does sirt connect to the TA
- Message Number: 757463
- Posted by: Allan
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:47 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]does sirt connect to the TA posted by Zack on August 20, 1997 at 20:10:34: There is no physical connection. Yes, at one time there was an intention to connect SI to Brooklyn by rail. Tunnel headings were started but never finished. The line was to connect in Brooklyn at the 59th St station (if you look closely you will see the provision that was made. But it never happened. Reason? There are many but one of the main reasons was Robert Moses. He preferred private , personal transportation (cars) over public transportation and did everything he could to divert money from subway projects to road building projects (the Verrazano Bridge is one of them).

Thread title: Blue Line Extension to WoodField Mall!!!!!!! (757464)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:48 1997, by BJ633@aol.com

Subject: Blue Line Extension to WoodField Mall!!!!!!!
Message Number: 757464
Posted by: BJ633@aol.com
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:48 1997

The CTA is considering extending the Blue Line from Ohare Airport to Woodfield mall. It would travel down the median of I-355 from Ohare to the Mall. The Story will be published in the Thursday August 21st Chicago Tribune. I don't know if it got approved yet, on the news they just mention the headlines in tommorrows tribune briefly and tell you to read the paper. Isn't it cool that even thought the CTA is in debt they still are able to accomodate ridders with new lines like the Orange, the recently renovated Green Line, and maybe this extension. What do you think of the Idea? Hope it doesn't take as long as BART's extension did to get approved!
- Subject: Re: Blue Line Extension to WoodField Mall!!!!!!!
- Message Number: 757475
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:57 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Blue Line Extension to WoodField Mall!!!!!!! posted by BJ633@aol.com on August 20, 1997 at 22:46:55: If nothing else, the ability to hop over to a mall for a few hours on a long layover between planes will probably devastate the business volume of the overpriced airport gift shops and restaurants!
  - Subject: Re: Blue Line Extension to WoodField Mall!!!!!!!
  - Message Number: 757477
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:59 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Blue Line Extension to WoodField Mall!!!!!!! posted by BJ633@aol.com on August 20, 1997 at 22:46:55: Evidently CTA feels there is enough ridership potential that it is worth studying the possibility of this extension. Increased ridership does mean more revenues, even though this alone would not get them out of debt. AT least CTA is keeping an eye towards the future. --Mark
    - Subject: Re: Blue Line Extension to WoodField Mall!!!!!!!
    - Message Number: 757549
    - Posted by: Bryan Layne
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:56 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Blue Line Extension to WoodField Mall!!!!!!! posted by BJ633@aol.com on August 20, 1997 at 22:46:55: Actually,now don't get mad,but your wrong.All that article was about was the suburbs of Shaumburg and Elk Grove Village and surrounding suburbs got together and came to the conclusion that a vital piece of Chicago,the "L",would be welcome in there area.Because of congestion problems and industry in places like the east side of Elk Grove Village,they think that the CTA trains would be very useful and a smart thing to have in there area.The CTA had nothing to do with it.Obviosly the CTA would never build an extention out that far and they would'nt build it to Woodfield Mall of all places.For one the CTA doesnt have the money to do that.2-if they were to build it..it would go to the Rosemont Horizon with probably a terminal at the south end of Shaumburg,with tops 3 extra stops.Even that would cost a couple bucks that at this point and probably for a while the CTA doesnt have.(suggestion..not to be a jerk..but the next time you post get the details right before)
      - Subject: Re: Blue Line Extension to WoodField Mall!!!!!!!
      - Message Number: 757585
      - Posted by: BJ
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Blue Line Extension to WoodField Mall!!!!!!! posted by Bryan Layne on August 24, 1997 at 23:27:08: What details did I get wrong. I stated what the paper said. The end of the line would be at the mall, and the towns haven't decided yet, to do the study.
        
        Subject: Re: Blue Line Extension to WoodField Mall!!!!!!!
        Message Number: 757587
        Posted by: Bryan Layne
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:28 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Blue Line Extension to WoodField Mall!!!!!!! posted by BJ633@aol.com on August 20, 1997 at 22:46:55: You said that the CTA had direct involvement in it...you said the "CTA is considering...." when you know darn well that the CTA would never say anything like that...basically through the whole article the CTA had not made one statement...towards the end a spokeperson says some optimistic quote about a study for the plan..which she knew the CTA would never do anything like that.Could imagine if the CTA actually said that they were thinking about building a line to Woddfield stupid mall??They would be under evn more public scrutinty than they already are.Ya,Blue Line to O'Hare and Woodfield Mall...ya right!!When pigs fly!!If they ever did have enogh money to do it..they would never build it any farther than Rosemont Horizon auditoreum...maybe to south Shaumburg...but not for 10 or 15 years.If the burbs want to flip the bill..sure why not??Pace Bus thats why!!I can guarentee that they will never be in the Woodfield Mall area!Cant yoy just see a 8 car O'Hare pullin up in the Woodfield Mall parking lot....thats what Pace is for.

Thread title: can MN equmient run in the suybway (757465)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:49 1997, by Zack

Subject: can MN equmient run in the suybway
Message Number: 757465
Posted by: Zack
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:49 1997

can Metro north M1a's run in the subway and is the MN owned by the NYCTA????
- Subject: Re: can MN equmient run in the suybway
- Message Number: 757468
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:51 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]can MN equmient run in the suybway posted by Zack on August 20, 1997 at 22:50:21: The simple answer to your question is NO for several reasons. First: Metro-North equipment uses a shoe beam/contact shoe which picks up 3rd rail voltage from the underside of the 3rd rail. NYCT 3rd rails are designed so that pick-up is accomplished from the top. Second: The M-1/M-3 car envelope will not fit most NYCT tunnels. Third: M-1/M-3 is too long and would not handle the tight radii of some NYCT curves. Forth: NYCT does not use ASC (Speed Control) which the M-1/M-3s require all though this can be bypassed. Finally: Thw M-1/M-3 is too heavy for NYCT roadbed & track. BTW - the same goes for the LIRR M-1/M-3s except for reason #1. This is why LIRR electrics (M-1s & M-3s) can't run on Metro-North ROW

Thread title: Number of morning commuters in Grand Central Station (757466)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:50 1997, by big apple

Subject: Number of morning commuters in Grand Central Station
Message Number: 757466
Posted by: big apple
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:50 1997

Looking for factual information on the number of people coming into the city each weekday morning. Also, where can I find the best factual information on daily operations ie.) busiest times, no. of trains etc... Please help and pass along what you may know.

Thread title: Re: Low Volatage Cars - Correction (757469)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:52 1997, by Steve

Subject: Re: Low Volatage Cars - Correction
Message Number: 757469
Posted by: Steve
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:52 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Low Volatage Cars posted by subway-buff on August 19, 1997 at 18:44:03: Your explanation is essentially correct but NYCT does not use 24 Volts for control. The nominal control voltage is 37.5 volts DC. This is derived from either 80 or 100 Amp/Hr batteries. The batteries are kept charged by Static Converters which convert the 600 Volt DC 3rd rail to low voltage DC.

Thread title: MIMIC (757470)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:53 1997, by John

Subject: MIMIC
Message Number: 757470
Posted by: John
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:53 1997

In the preview of the movie "Mimic", I saw that there were some shots in the New York Subway, and what appears to be the front of an R-16 car. What part of the subway was the movie shot in?

Thread title: Re: R-32/32A - the whole story (757471)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:54 1997, by Steve

Subject: Re: R-32/32A - the whole story
Message Number: 757471
Posted by: Steve
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:54 1997

In Reply to: [6]R-32/32A posted by Wayne Johnson on August 19, 1997 at 12:29:29: After the initial delivery of the BrightonLiner R-32s, the NYCT put 4 on display at 34th ST/6th Ave. The public was invited to 'vote' on which interior lighting and fan grill design they liked (BTW - I was in high dchool at the time so my recollection may be somewhat shaded). The R-32s had thin light linses and the standard louvered fan grills. The R-32As came with light canopies which could serve to backlight advertising signs. The fan grills were also different. However, from a technical standpoint, the R-32As came with Westinghouse Propulsion Packages while the R-32s came with GE SCM controllers. The R-32s are no longer referred to as R-32 and R-32As. They are currently referred to as R-32 Phase I, R-32 Phase II and R-32 GE. The R32 GE were overhauled by GE and have no AC (there are just 10 of them). The R-32 Phase I cars (re-built by MK) have WABCO Air Brake packages, GE Master Controllers (Throttle) and Thermoking HVAC units. The R-32 Phase II cars (also re-built by MK) have NY Air Brake equipment, Westinghouse Master Controllers and Stone Safety HVAC units. Now that you've got all that straight, here's the kicker. Since the cars were sent out to overhaul based on how poorly they were performing ( bad cars first) there are regular R-32s and R-32As which are Phase I and Phase II. There are also about a dozen pairs which are comprised of R-32 and R-32A mixes. One last oddity of the R-32 fleet. While the original contract of R-32s started with car #3350, there is now an R-32 sporting the #3348. This was an odd car which was converted to an 'even' car when the NYCT ended up with 2 odd cars due to a mishap.
- Subject: Re: R-32/32A - the whole story
- Message Number: 757472
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:55 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]R-32/32A posted by Wayne Johnson on August 19, 1997 at 12:29:29: After the initial delivery of the BrightonLiner R-32s, the NYCT put 4 on display at 34th ST/6th Ave. The public was invited to 'vote' on which interior lighting and fan grill design they liked (BTW - I was in high school at the time so my recollection may be somewhat shaded). The R-32s had thin light lenses and the standard louvered fan grills. The R-32As came with light canopies which could serve to backlight advertising signs. The fan grills were also different. However, from a technical standpoint, the R-32As came with Westinghouse Propulsion Packages while the R-32s came with GE SCM controllers. The R-32s are no longer referred to as R-32 and R-32As. They are currently referred to as R-32 Phase I, R-32 Phase II and R-32 GE. The R32 GE were overhauled by GE and have no AC (there are just 10 of them). The R-32 Phase I cars (re-built by MK) have WABCO Air Brake packages, GE Master Controllers (Throttle) and Thermoking HVAC units. The R-32 Phase II cars (also re-built by MK) have NY Air Brake equipment, Westinghouse Master Controllers and Stone Safety HVAC units. Now that you've got all that straight, here's the kicker. Since the cars were sent out to overhaul based on how poorly they were performing ( bad cars first) there are regular R-32s and R-32As which are Phase I and Phase II. There are also about a dozen pairs which are comprised of R-32 and R-32A mixes. One last oddity of the R-32 fleet. While the original contract of R-32s started with car #3350, there is now an R-32 sporting the #3348. This was an odd car which was converted to an 'even' car when the NYCT ended up with 2 odd cars due to a mishap.

Thread title: Re: Ghost trains - Available Scrap Cars (757473)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:56 1997, by Steve

Subject: Re: Ghost trains - Available Scrap Cars
Message Number: 757473
Posted by: Steve
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:56 1997

In Reply to: [6]Ghost trains posted by Not a vandal on August 19, 1997 at 20:16:25: There are a couple of scrap cars (R12s) in Concourse Yard. However, one favor, if you do come to paint them, come while I'm there.

Thread title: More info on: Blue Line Extension to WoodField Mall!!!!!!! (757478)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:13:59 1997, by BJ633@aol.com

Subject: More info on: Blue Line Extension to WoodField Mall!!!!!!!
Message Number: 757478
Posted by: BJ633@aol.com
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:13:59 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Blue Line Extension to WoodField Mall!!!!!!! posted by Gary Jacobi on August 21, 1997 at 11:21:26: The facts are that the CTA didn't think of this, the north suburbs did. They still are thinking if they should do a study to see if this is worth it. If the study gets done and approved, then the CTA would have to step in and see where the money is comming from and if they should give any towards the project. It isn't just for the mall, there are some industrial parks that people commute to every day from the city that are on the way to the mall and the train would stop there. A possible route is down the interstate 90 median. I will mention if the study gets approved or first of all if it gets done! For the complete story see the Chicago Tribune for Thursday August 21st.

Thread title: Re: El Structures For Model Railroads (St. Louis) (757479)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:14:00 1997, by Philip Dominguez

Subject: Re: El Structures For Model Railroads (St. Louis)
Message Number: 757479
Posted by: Philip Dominguez
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:00 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: El Structures For Model Railroads (to Gary Jacobi) posted by Timothy on August 18, 1997 at 21:44:42: The St. Louis viaduct was used by passanger trains going into the city R.R. station -Phil

Thread title: Re: More Historical Questions (BMT Short on Equipment) (757480)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:14:01 1997, by Ed Sachs

Subject: Re: More Historical Questions (BMT Short on Equipment)
Message Number: 757480
Posted by: Ed Sachs
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:01 1997

In Reply to: [6]More Historical Questions posted by Lou from Middletown on August 19, 1997 at 18:48:29: BMT wasn't short on equipment, just short on steel subway cars. They had lots of wooden el cars, but, by statute, they were prohibited from subway tunnels. With the abandonment and demolition of the el lines, more traffic had to be sent through the subway, and hence the car shortage. Some creative ways of coping with the shortage included short turning subway trains on the West End (now B) and Culver (now F) lines during rush hours and using el car shuttles for the outer parts of the routes. Other reasons: extensions to Astoria (1949, replacing shuttles from Queensboro Plaza which used wooden cars), Forest Hills (1955? via IND Queens Blvd. line).

Thread title: Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question! (757484)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:14:04 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question!
Message Number: 757484
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:04 1997

Again another semi-silly question: Why did it take so long for NY subways to get headlights??? It seems to me to be an obvious piece of equipment for an underground electric railroad,especially when the els had them! Or am I missing a point here????
- Subject: Re: Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question!
- Message Number: 757499
- Posted by: Allan
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:16 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question! posted by Lou from Middletown on August 21, 1997 at 14:04:34: I don't really know but I recall hearing some oldtimers talk about things like that. They said that the reason it the early subway cars did not have headlights was so that track workers would not be blinded by oncoming trains. I suppose there may be some logic behind that in a real sense but todays track workers don't seem to have a problem. You also have to remember that there were and still are tunnel lights every couple of feet so it was never completely dark in the tunnel (except when one light blew out - then a whole row would be out). The newer tunnel lights are much better and really light things up.
  - Subject: Re: Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question!
  - Message Number: 757515
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:29 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question! posted by Lou from Middletown on August 21, 1997 at 14:04:34: It's actually not so obvious. In a few years, people will be asking why the third tail light in the center of cars wasn't there until the mid-80s even though it was shown well before the 80s to reduce rear-end collisions. Perhaps it's as simple as "no one thought about it". --Mark
    - Subject: Re: Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question!
    - Message Number: 757535
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:45 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question! posted by Lou from Middletown on August 21, 1997 at 14:04:34: I can't answer your question as to why but I can tell you when. The first cars delivered to the TA equiped with headlights, were the R-22s, delivered in 1957. Prior to that, all cars had red or white running lights mounted just above the anti-climbs. After the delivery of the 22s, the TA decided to equip all revenue and non-revenue vehicles with headlights. This was done between 1959 and 1964. As to why it took so long, I can only guess that it was because headlights were not required since the NYCT system was not a class I railroad.
      - Subject: Re: Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question!
      - Message Number: 757540
      - Posted by: Dave
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:49 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question! posted by Steve on August 24, 1997 at 01:32:59: > Steve, According to Greller's book, "New York City Subway Cars," the R-15, R-16 and R-17 all came equipped with headlights. This data is shown on the TA's Car Maintenance Department sheets for the cars, reprinted in the book.
        
        Subject: Re: Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question!
        Message Number: 757545
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:53 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question! posted by Dave on August 24, 1997 at 12:28:02: According to my source, "Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawings", which was compiled by the NYCT Maintenance Support Dept.: the R-15s were delivered in 1950 but the headlights were installed in 1962 and 63. The drawing # is 402-2001 (sheet 20) The R-16s were delivered in 1954 & 55 but the headlights were installed in 1961 - 63. The drawing # is 402-2001 (sheet21) The R-17s were delivered in 1955 &56 but the headlights were installed in 1957. The drawing # is 402-2001 (sheet 22) If these are the sheets re-printed in the book, & you look at the notes printed at the bottom, you'll see the date the headlights were installed in the lower left-hand corner. I hope that this clarifys the matter but if not you can contact me via E-Mail and I'll give you more info.
        
        Subject: Re: Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question!
        Message Number: 757554
        Posted by: Dave
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question! posted by Steve on August 24, 1997 at 21:59:52: > You are correct, sir! Thanks.
        
        Subject: Re: Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question!
        Message Number: 757555
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:01 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question! posted by Lou from Middletown on August 21, 1997 at 14:04:34: One (literal!) observation about subway headlights - they're relatively ineffectual. Whenever I've stood in front of the "railfan window" on trips through tunnels, I've noticed how little is illuminated. True, the motorman's cab is somewhat darkened, but I don't imagine that makes a significant difference.
        
        Subject: Re: Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question!
        Message Number: 757575
        Posted by: Zack
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question! posted by Peter Rosa on August 25, 1997 at 09:26:27: not to sound lake a smart ass or anything. there probally there in case the tunnel lights go off so the trains dont ram in to one another
        
        Subject: Re: Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question!
        Message Number: 757582
        Posted by: Dave
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question! posted by Zack on August 25, 1997 at 21:17:07: > What do you think the signal system is for? Tunnel lights have nothing to do with trains not running into each other!
        
        Subject: Re: Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question!
        Message Number: 757591
        Posted by: Bill
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question! posted by Peter Rosa on August 25, 1997 at 09:26:27: Track workers wear safety vests that have a reflective strips on them while working in the tunnels . The headlights refelect off the vest so the train opterator can see them at a distance. Also the workers can see the train coming at a safe distance so they can get out of the way.
        
        Subject: Re: Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question!
        Message Number: 757596
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:35 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Yet Another Obviuos Historical Question! posted by Peter Rosa on August 25, 1997 at 09:26:27: It may appear that the sealed beams are ineffective but I can assure you that they are not. I have been in the cab with the headlight circuit breaker off and even withthe tunnel lights, it's quite a bit darker. BTW - the most common sealed beam used on the NYCT is 65 Watts. Compare that to the one on your automobile.

Thread title: DISTANCE TO CORONA PARK FROM SUBWAY (757486)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:14:06 1997, by E.BULKA

Subject: DISTANCE TO CORONA PARK FROM SUBWAY
Message Number: 757486
Posted by: E.BULKA
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:06 1997

HOW FAR IS IT TO CORONA PARK FROM THE SUBWAY? WHAT SUBWAY STOP IS CLOSER TO THE PARK - US TENNIS OPEN? HOW LATE DO THE TRAINS RUN?
- Subject: Re: DISTANCE TO CORONA PARK FROM SUBWAY
- Message Number: 757487
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:06 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]DISTANCE TO CORONA PARK FROM SUBWAY posted by E.BULKA on August 21, 1997 at 14:34:38: The #7 Train stops at the entrance to the park. The station name is Willets Point-Shea Stadium. Once you leave the train there is a footbridge that go to the park. The number 7 train operates 24 hrs.
  - Subject: Re: DISTANCE TO CORONA PARK FROM SUBWAY
  - Message Number: 757510
  - Posted by: aaron
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:25 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]DISTANCE TO CORONA PARK FROM SUBWAY posted by E.BULKA on August 21, 1997 at 14:34:38: It is a short walk to the tennis center from the #7 subway; take the express if it is running to Shea Stadium, about 50 minutes from Times Square. You can also take the Long Island Railroad from Penn Station, it costs a couple dollars more but only takes 15 minutes. P.S. If you need any tennis tickets, e-mail me...

Thread title: LIRR in need of a Dress Code for conductors (757489)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:14:08 1997, by Bill Ruiz

Subject: LIRR in need of a Dress Code for conductors
Message Number: 757489
Posted by: Bill Ruiz
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:08 1997

As a daily commuter on the Port Washington branch, and a rail fan as well, it really bothers me that the conductors on the LIRR seem to disregard their job as being a professional service job and come to work in attire that in the private sector would not be allow at all especially when you are dealing with the public. My question is why are there no strict guidelines for proper attire at they MTA? I doubt that the MTA executives come to work so poorly dressed as some of the conductors do. Some conductors just love to show off their hanging jewelry and open chest at the same time, while others walk around with long hair all over the place. Is there no pride anymore in being a conductor?
- Subject: Re: LIRR in need of a Dress Code for conductors
- Message Number: 757552
- Posted by: John
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:58 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]LIRR in need of a Dress Code for conductors posted by Bill Ruiz on August 21, 1997 at 14:49:01: I can see your point. Earlier today, I took a day trip to Long Beach and the conductor on the return trip had practically the top half of his shirt unbuttoned! Then again, I could see the reason for his slack attire - there were A LOT of nicely tanned young ladies on that train! :-)
  - Subject: Re: LIRR in need of a Dress Code for conductors
  - Message Number: 757605
  - Posted by: Bill Ruiz
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:42 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: LIRR in need of a Dress Code for conductors posted by John on August 25, 1997 at 03:19:31: I'm glad to see that someone out there noticed what the conductors where wearing. I do want to make the point that not all conductors on the LIRR dress so sloppy. I guess I expect too much from the conductors these days. I just feel that they should have some respect for their job, that's all.
    - Subject: Re: LIRR in need of a Dress Code for conductors
    - Message Number: 757613
    - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:49 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: LIRR in need of a Dress Code for conductors posted by Bill Ruiz on August 27, 1997 at 20:27:35: This is sad to hear. As a youngster, I was always impressed by the LIRR conductors uniforms; in fact even the Trainmen were well dressed. I always wondered if the uniforms were at the employees expense, or if they were subsidized in some way. If nothing else, I feel there is a safety benefit from having an easily identified person in charge during an emergency situation. Does anyone have an answer to my "who payed for the uniform" question?
      - Subject: Re: LIRR in need of a Dress Code for conductors
      - Message Number: 757635
      - Posted by: Fernando Perez
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR in need of a Dress Code for conductors posted by Gary Jacobi on August 28, 1997 at 11:39:53: Although I do not work for the LIRR, NYC Transit pays for our uniforms. Recently there has been serious shortages however, especially in the Department of Buses. It has been so bad Bus Operators have been buying there own pants. As long as they are blue its fine. Starting this month a new contractor has been given a contract to dress us up. Starting with bus operators then RTO division, and then stations. When I look at old pictures of trolley motormen and conductors you see that they were also slovenly looking at times. Myself, when I start work I look very neat and clean, but by the end of the shift my shirt is out at the tail and is dirty and my pants will be hanging down. Its all part of the day I guess.
        
        Subject: Re: LIRR in need of a Dress Code for conductors
        Message Number: 757643
        Posted by: Bill Ruiz
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:13 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: LIRR in need of a Dress Code for conductors posted by Gary Jacobi on August 28, 1997 at 11:39:53: I am glad to see that someone noticed the difference between the present vs. the past. As I said before, not all of the conductors are that way. I hope that the president of the LIRR does not approve of this lack of proper attire. I also wonder the unions have to say about this issue. As a daily rider I find that a good dress code would make the ride home a little better than to see them dressed so sloppy. They make reasonably good salaries, so I don't see a problem there. I also see young recruits every now and then, so there is still a desire to join the proud ranks that have come before them.

Thread title: NYC Subway (757490)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:14:09 1997, by BJ633@aol.com

Subject: NYC Subway
Message Number: 757490
Posted by: BJ633@aol.com
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:09 1997

If Times Square is in bad shape, what would be the nicest station closest to it? I'm planning a trip in the future to NYC and would like to ride the subway. I'm going with my parents who didn't like ridding BART in SF until they found out that it is very nice and in great condition. My father made me ask a police officer if Balboa Park was in a good neighborhood and buy tickets a day ahead of time. My point is that I would like to ride a safe line, maybe even the one that goes over the Brooklyn Bridge, that would be cool. Is Brooklyn a primarily safe area? I would like to ride the subway farther then Manhattan. I don't know what burrows have the housing projects and aren't safe, and which are. Here in Chicago we have some areas that are ok, some horrid, and some that have sports cars parked on the street. My point is I would like to ride through the ok areas and the great areas. I would also like a line if possible that is both subway and elevated. Also, is the whole subway operated by the nyc transit and called the nycta/mta? Thanks in advance, and if you need info about Chicago's Els and subways, e-mail me!
- Subject: Re: NYC Subway
- Message Number: 757493
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:11 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]NYC Subway posted by BJ633@aol.com on August 21, 1997 at 14:55:49: To answer some of your questions: 1. The Times Square station may not be particularly esthetic, but it's just as safe as anywhere else. No need to avoid it. 2. There aren't any subway lines over the Brooklyn Bridge. The B
  - Subject: Re: NYC Subway
  - Message Number: 757494
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:12 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]NYC Subway posted by BJ633@aol.com on August 21, 1997 at 14:55:49: This is a tough one. If you stick to Manhattan south of Central Park, you are not dealing so much with neighborhoods as with places of work and or business. I always wind up taking newcomers into the city on the LIRR to Penn Station, and if a Subway trip is in order, we go south on the Eighth ave A train, get off at W4th st, go down one flight and take a local back up to the station, or on to 50th st which is Rockefeller plaza and St Patricks Cathedral, about as safe a place to go upstairs and walk around as I can think of. If your guests are squeamish about sharing the trains with rough looking characters, I would stay out of the outer boroughs. There is no train over the Brooklyn bridge, and I believe the Manhattan Bridge is presently out of service for trains as well.
    - Subject: Re: NYC Subway
    - Message Number: 757495
    - Posted by: David Pirmann
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:13 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]NYC Subway posted by BJ633@aol.com on August 21, 1997 at 14:55:49: You should feel safe riding the subway anywhere it goes. You don't have to worry about unsafe housing developments if you don't get off the trains/leave the stations. A nice ride that will take you thru all sorts of areas in a couple of hours would be to start at midtown on the Sixth Avenue line (Orange on the map). Take the D Train southbound toward Brooklyn. This will go over the Manhattan Bridge and down the very scenic Brighton Line to Coney Island. At Coney Island switch to the F train bound for Manhattan which will take you over the scenic Smith/9th Street Viaduct and return you to Manhattan via Tunnel. There's a post a ways back about good stations to visit if you are wanting to take pictures of the subway (I posted a list just the other day). The entire subway system is operated by an organization which calls itself MTA New York City Transit. You can get a free map at any token booth (in any station). p.s. No trains run on the Brooklyn Bridge (not now, anyway). Write me privately to get more information about good places to visit, if you want. --Dave
      - Subject: Re: NYC Subway
      - Message Number: 757517
      - Posted by: Lou from Middletown
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]NYC Subway posted by BJ633@aol.com on August 21, 1997 at 14:55:49: As an out-of towner who doesn't get into town nearly enough to ride the trains, I would make a couple of more suggestions: 1. The #2 (Broadway Express) downtown from 96th St. to Chambers-One of the best express runs to ride head-end with. 2.From Chambers, ride the PATH train out to Newark. It runs through the hugh South Kearny freght yards on the way and is another nice run. From Newark go downstairs in Penn Station, and ride the famous Newark subway.This is run with very well kept PCC cars(!).Good luck!!

Thread title: Re: Low Voltage Cars - Correction (757496)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:14:14 1997, by Dan Lawrence

Subject: Re: Low Voltage Cars - Correction
Message Number: 757496
Posted by: Dan Lawrence
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:14 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: Low Volatage Cars - Correction posted by Steve on August 20, 1997 at 23:52:27: Steve missed Subway-Buff's point. 24 volts is correct and my followup to this post explained how the 24 volt power was obtained on a 600 volt DC system. Static converters may be be used now, but in 1915 that technology was yet to be invented. As to the voltage used, that was typical of the era and voltages in the 24-32 volt range for control voltage remained standard in the electric railway industry for many years. PCC car control voltage is 32 vols DC, obatined from a motor-generator set. Standard GE PC and PCM control uses a 30 volt control system, power being obtained by a battery that is charged by a circuit from the negative side of the air compressor.
- Subject: Re: Low Voltage Cars - Correction
- Message Number: 757504
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:20 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Low Voltage Cars - Correction posted by Dan Lawrence on August 21, 1997 at 20:05:03: I don't think I missed anyones point. According to the "NYC Transit Authority Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawings" book, the earliest IRT equipment listed were the Q type built 1903 - 1908. The batteries were charged via a Westinghouse UM-281a trickle charger. The rated output of this unit is listed at 37 volts DC. The BMT equipment built in the next decade and the R-1s through R-9s (built in the 30s) had D-3f Wabco air compressors which had a magneto for battery charging. The R-10 was the first piece of NYCT equipment (built 1948) to use an M-G to charge the batteries, again 37.5 volts. If you have a credible source for information about NYCT equipment that contradicts mine, I'd certainly be interested in seeing it.
  - Subject: Re: Low Voltage Cars - Correction
  - Message Number: 757532
  - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:43 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Low Voltage Cars - Correction posted by Steve on August 22, 1997 at 02:24:36: Back in the 20's the use of the UM-281a charger was more current related than voltage related. The idea was to trap some or all of the compressor current and force it through the batteries. The relay in the charger simply prevented the batteries from discharging through a parallel resistor when the compressor was stopped. Batteries were usually edison cells with relatively low capacity, thus they depended on frequent compressor cycles to keep up. Whether 16 cells (24v) or 24 cells (32v) batteries were used was dependent on the car, either would work with the same charger. Even today the standard voltage is always less than the rated charger voltage. A PCC car uses 37.5 volts MG output to charge its 32 volt battery.
    - Subject: Re: Low Voltage Cars - Correction
    - Message Number: 757536
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:46 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Low Voltage Cars - Correction posted by Gerry O'Regan on August 23, 1997 at 20:29:56: According to the prints that I have - the IRT Q cars had (2) B2H batteries. I can't substantiate that the cars were either 24v or 37.5v when built. Perhaps you know which is the case. However, the surviving Low Vs are 37.5 volts now (the museum cars) You are also correct about the nominal voltage being less than the charger voltage, however, on a standard 8 or 10 car consist, there is roughly a drop of 0.5 to 0.75 volts per car on trainline circuits (@ moderate current). Therefore, since most of the relays used on the cars have a minimum voltage rating of 28 VDC, it is necessary that the battery output on any car be 36 volts with the converter off. 32 volts on one end of a 600' train would be 24-26 volts at the other end in trainline applications.

Thread title: Grand Central Arrival/Departure Board (757497)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:14:14 1997, by Nick

Subject: Grand Central Arrival/Departure Board
Message Number: 757497
Posted by: Nick
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:14 1997

2 weeks ago when I was in GTC, I noticed that the main room (where the turqoise ceiling was restored) looked like it was near completion (though I can't say the same thing for some of the other parts of the station) Which brings me to the question, is the new train arrival/departure board going to be installed soon? Is it going to be digital? Also, when is the complete renovation scheduled to be completed? PLEASE POST ANY INFO YOU HAVE, EVEN IF YOU CAN'T ANSWER EVERYTHING-THANK YOU!!
- Subject: Re: Grand Central Arrival/Departure Board
- Message Number: 757508
- Posted by: Zack
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:23 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Grand Central Arrival/Departure Board posted by Nick on August 21, 1997 at 20:34:05: i am only guessing but it will probally be digital for the low manitance they require but its only a guess
  - Subject: Re: Grand Central Arrival/Departure Board
  - Message Number: 757547
  - Posted by: Bryan LLLLLLayne
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:55 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Grand Central Arrival/Departure Board posted by Nick on August 21, 1997 at 20:34:05: I'm pretty sure that it is supposed to be done in '98.

Thread title: Re: NYC Subway (Brooklyn Bridge) (757498)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:14:15 1997, by Michael Adler

Subject: Re: NYC Subway (Brooklyn Bridge)
Message Number: 757498
Posted by: Michael Adler
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:15 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway posted by David Pirmann on August 21, 1997 at 15:57:54: p.s. No trains run on the Brooklyn Bridge (not now, anyway). ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Does it mean NYCT are thinking of running trains over BB in the future? Michael Adler
- Subject: Re: NYC Subway (Brooklyn Bridge)
- Message Number: 757500
- Posted by: Allan
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:17 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway (Brooklyn Bridge) posted by Michael Adler on August 21, 1997 at 21:36:51: Dream on Michael. They have enough trouble with the Manhattan and Williamburg Bridges. Also because of changes in the roadways on the BB it would be nearly impossible to put trackage on it again.
  - Subject: Re: NYC Subway (Brooklyn Bridge)
  - Message Number: 757501
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:18 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway (Brooklyn Bridge) posted by Michael Adler on August 21, 1997 at 21:36:51: No, I was implying that there once were trains on the Brooklyn Bridge, but no longer. With the problems that have happened on the Manh. Br. and the Willie B. they'd be nuts to consider putting trains on the Bk. Br. Hell they are practically tearing the Willie B. down to the columns and building a new bridge from scratch. --Dave
    - Subject: Re: NYC Subway (Brooklyn Bridge)
    - Message Number: 757502
    - Posted by: Michael Adler
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:18 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway (Brooklyn Bridge) posted by Allan on August 21, 1997 at 21:47:09: How long do you guys think WB, MB will last? Michael Adler
      - Subject: Re: NYC Subway (Brooklyn Bridge)
      - Message Number: 757507
      - Posted by: Zack
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:22 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway (Brooklyn Bridge) posted by Michael Adler on August 21, 1997 at 23:28:12: They will probally put them on their own bridges or in tunnels i the next 25 years or at least be concidering it at that time
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Subway (Brooklyn Bridge)
        Message Number: 757511
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Subway (Brooklyn Bridge) posted by Zack on August 22, 1997 at 06:48:37: If it were not for the various financial crises of the thirties, the IND system would have included tunnels which would have duplicated the services provided by the BMT over the two bridges in question. Even then it was known that suspension bridges and repeated concentrated loads don't mix very well.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Subway (Brooklyn Bridge)
        Message Number: 757513
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway (Brooklyn Bridge) posted by Michael Adler on August 21, 1997 at 23:28:12: The WB? Well, there's a major rehab now under way, so given this, probably another 50 years, even with train traffic. The MB? I think you;re going to see truck restrictions placed on the MB in 5 years to try and extend the life of the bridge. This might allow train traffic to continue in the future, although I don't know if we'll see both sides of the MB open to train traffic in our lifetimes. --Mark

Thread title: DORCAL EDENWALD BUS COMPANY (757503)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:14:19 1997, by STEVE LOWENTHAL

Subject: DORCAL EDENWALD BUS COMPANY
Message Number: 757503
Posted by: STEVE LOWENTHAL
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:19 1997

DOES ANYONE HAVE DETAILS AND ROUTING INFO ON ' THIS COMPANY

Thread title: Mark's Favourite Lines Re: NYC Subway (757514)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:14:28 1997, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Mark's Favourite Lines Re: NYC Subway
Message Number: 757514
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:28 1997

In Reply to: [6]NYC Subway posted by BJ633@aol.com on August 21, 1997 at 14:55:49: Before you visit NYC, write the MTA for a subway map or view the on-line maps at this site to familiarize yourself with the system. I'll assume the departure point fro your trip(s) is Manhattan. If you're coming to NY to just ride the trains, these have always been my favourites, and each one goes to a different borough: - The #7 line from 42nd St/Times Square to Main St, Flushing, Queens. Try to time your trip where at least one leg is during rush hour so you can enjoy the express ride from Queensboro Plaza to Main St (or vice versa in the AM rush). If you're going to stop for photos, consider Queensboro Plaza (multi-level elevated station transferring with the N train), 111th St (junction with Willets Point Yard, express track rises to a second level) and Willets Point/Shea Stadium (exit train onto footbridge into Flushing Meadows Park and cross over Willets Point Yard). The R-36 fleet has the accessible railfan window. - The Brighton Line (D/Q) into Coney Island, Brooklyn. If you prefer an express ride in Brooklyn, use the Q train to Brighton Beach and then cross the platform for a transfer to the Coney Island bound F. The Brighton line has different types of running: over the Manhattan Bridge (suspension bridge over the East River), tunnel, open cut, elevated ROW, typical EL south of Neptune Ave into Coney Island). The double-decked El structure between West 8th St and Stillwell Ave has always been one of my favourites to photograph. The R-68s that are used on the D/Q lines do not have the railfan window, although sometimes the window into the train operator's cab is not obstructed with a sign or jacket. Suggested photo locations include Beverley Road from the Coney Island bound platform, Ave J for the runbys, Brighton Beach, Ocean Pkwy (facing West 8th St), West 8th St and Coney Island - Stillwell Ave. There's an overpass at Stillwell Ave over all the lines that terminate thee (4 lines B/D/F/N, all terminating at Island Platforms. Go to Nathan's for lunch - a Coney Island institution for over 75 years. And take a walk on the Coney Island Boardwalk (head East towards Brighton Beach). The return trip from Coney Island can be up to you. If you like mostly open cut running, use the N train. The N is running with a mix of equipment right now, so if you have the time, wait for a train with the railfan window (R-32, R-40 or R-42). If you like mostly elevated running, return with the F (with a nice trip over the Smith ST viaduct, highest point in the system not counting suspension bridges) but the F, like the D/Q, does nothave the railfan window. You could also take the B (which is my preference) with a winding route through Brooklyn and a nice express run between 36th St and Pacific Street. And for the most part, the equipment used (R-40, R-42) has the railfan window; if you're doing this on a weekend, it might be harder to get a train with a railfan window; R-68s are used. - Take the #2 train to 241 St / White Plains Road, Wakefield, the Bronx. Nice long elevated stretch through the Bronx. Photo opportunity at E 180 St. Overpass connecting Bronx and Manhattan bound platforms at Southern end of station giving nice views of the El approaching from the south. All stops between 149th St and 241 St, except for 180th and E Tremont Ave, are not recommended for photo stops. The "endangered species" redbirds still make up this fleet so getting a railfan window should not be a problem. - Runners Up: The J line from Broad/Wall Sts to Parsons/Archer. Long El through Brooklyn and Queens. Also the spur from Myrtle Ave to Metropolitan Ave along the M route. Lots of old El structure to be seen, some dating back to the turn of the century. No photo stops recommended here unless you're with someone who is familiar with the system. The fleet on these lines consists mostly of R-40s and R-42s, so, again, getting a railfan window should not be a problem. Also make the Transit Museum in downtown Brooklyn a required stop when you're here. No other place like it (other than the London Underground museum at Covent Garden, London, England). E-mail me privately for more specifics, should you need them. --Mark
- Subject: Re: Mark's Favourite Lines Re: NYC Subway
- Message Number: 757516
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:30 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Mark's Favourite Lines Re: NYC Subway posted by Mark S Feinman on August 22, 1997 at 14:40:43: Another feature about the N train that makes it an interesting ride is the way it goes right through the Coney Island Yard. That offers a view of a facility normally not available to the public.

Thread title: Plaque in the Secaucus swamp (757518)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:14:32 1997, by Mitch

Subject: Plaque in the Secaucus swamp
Message Number: 757518
Posted by: Mitch
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:32 1997

On my daily commute between NY Penn and Newark Penn on NJ Transit, I see what looks like a plaque in the swamp (excuse me, wetlands) on the Secaucus bank of the Hackensack River (looking out the east windows of the train). This seems like a weird place for a marker. Was there a train wreck on the bridge over the Hackensack River once, and this is the memorial? Thanks.
- Subject: Re: Plaque in the Secaucus swamp
- Message Number: 757519
- Posted by: ~airplane
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:32 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Plaque in the Secaucus swamp posted by Mitch on August 22, 1997 at 17:19:02: I recall that an Amtrak Fast Mail train derailed on a swing bridge somewhere in the Jersey swamps either this year or late last year. Was this the bridge? If so, why would they make a plaque for a crash in which no one was killed?
  - Subject: Re: Plaque in the Secaucus swamp
  - Message Number: 757520
  - Posted by: ~airplane
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:33 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Plaque in the Secaucus swamp posted by Mitch on August 22, 1997 at 17:19:02: I recall that an Amtrak Fast Mail train derailed on a swing bridge somewhere in the Jersey swamps either this year or late last year. Was this the bridge? If so, why would they make a plaque for a crash in which no one was killed?
    - Subject: Re: Plaque in the Secaucus swamp
    - Message Number: 757521
    - Posted by: John
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:34 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Plaque in the Secaucus swamp posted by ~airplane on August 22, 1997 at 21:59:52: The Fast Mail did indeed derail near this bridge, but I don't remember hearing anything about a plaque placed there. Maybe it commemorates something else?
      - Subject: Re: Plaque in the Secaucus swamp
      - Message Number: 757546
      - Posted by: Ted Nielsen
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Plaque in the Secaucus swamp posted by John on August 23, 1997 at 00:49:53: I once read about a major train derailment in New Jersey that happened many years ago , but , I'm not sure anymore if it occured at that location. I do remember that alot of people were killed.
        
        Subject: Re: Plaque in the Secaucus swamp
        Message Number: 757553
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Plaque in the Secaucus swamp posted by Ted Nielsen on August 24, 1997 at 22:45:30: There was a wreck, early '96, I believe, with 2 NJT commuter trains. Engineer on one was killed, along with a passenger on the other. Fuzzy on the details, but that sounds like the right spot. Eons ago, a Jersey central train went off an open bridge over the Raritan River.
        
        Subject: Re: Plaque in the Secaucus swamp
        Message Number: 757556
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:02 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Plaque in the Secaucus swamp posted by Mitch on August 22, 1997 at 17:19:02: Thanks for calling it "EONS AGO"; I can't quite place it in time or as to where I was when I heard about it, but I will guess at 1965. A commuter train plunged off the open Hackensack Lift Bridge and killed quite a few. The Raritan River accident took place in the same decade, but I don't recall a death toll.
        
        Subject: Re: Plaque in the Secaucus swamp
        Message Number: 757557
        Posted by: Mark Greenwald
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Plaque in the Secaucus swamp posted by Mitch on August 22, 1997 at 17:19:02: Not to sound like a smart-ass, BUT, could it possibly be just a simple "No Trespassing" sign?, or possibly a no fishing or whatever sign.---just a thought.
        
        Subject: Re: Plaque in the Secaucus swamp
        Message Number: 757558
        Posted by: ~airplane
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Plaque in the Secaucus swamp posted by Charles Fiori on August 25, 1997 at 07:58:01: The crash of the two NJT trains was on Friday, February 9, 1996, on the Main Line, not the NE Corridor Line, but the two lines intersect in the area of the Hackensack River and all the other details sound right.
        
        Subject: Re: Plaque in the Secaucus swamp
        Message Number: 757599
        Posted by: Lou from Middletown
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Plaque in the Secaucus swamp posted by Mitch on August 22, 1997 at 17:19:02: This might be a plaque dedicated to the sandhogs who died in the digging of the Hudson River tunnels,especially the Pennsylvania tubes. This seems more likely than commemerating any single train wreck. Remember, when they dug those tunnels (including the H&M tubes ), a lot of men lost their lives: tunneling under water was not an exact science in those days.

Thread title: Chicago's Green Line (757522)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:14:35 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Chicago's Green Line
Message Number: 757522
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:35 1997

I'm planning a trip to Chicago sometime early this fall to ride and take photos of the Els. Although I was in Chicago 2 years ago, I didn't get to photograph any of the Green Line, because it was shut down for rehabilitation. Most of the photos taken 2 years ago were of the El structure and stations within the Loop, as well as the short section of El structure on the Blue (O'Hare) line. I'm planning to photograph the El structure and several stations along the Lake Street Line, as well as the 63rd Street (Jackson Park Line). The thing that I'm concerned about, is that I've heard that the Green Line does pass through or near several very depressed neighborhoods along Lake Street, as well as Jackson Park. On the other hand, I was told that a lot of the stations in those areas are very old and beautiful. Would it be possible for me to photograph any part of the Green Line outside the Loop without taking the risk of running into any trouble?
- Subject: Re: Chicago's Green Line
- Message Number: 757525
- Posted by: BJ633@aol.com
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:37 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Chicago's Green Line posted by Timothy on August 23, 1997 at 02:50:13: I have lived in Chicago all my life and ridden all the El's with no problems. The outer portion in Oak Park of the Green Line is very nice and in a great neighborhood. It does go throught questionable neighborhods on the Lake Street route, but because of the people ridding from high class Oak Park everyday, no one bothers anyone. The green Line has two branches at the other end of the Line, which are 63/Ashland and 63/Cottage Grove. These both go through questionable neightborhoods. They really aren't branches of the Main Line, they each just have two stations. The one to 63/Cottage Grove is called East 63rd and trains to their are labeled east 63rd. Only ride the green Line in the daytime and you will be fine. The branch to East 63rd is in or near a great area, but on the border of a bad one. I would also recomend ridding the Blue Line to Forest Park for a fast ride and photo oppertunities at the end of the line. The 54th/Cermak branch is one of the worst El's in neighborhoods going throught and condition. You proabaly won't want to photograph it or ride it. Even the end of the Line 54th/Cermak in Cicero is a horrible neighborhood. You proabaly rode the red line to Howard and purle line Evanston Express last time, but ride them again. The both go throught great areas and have really big Elevated portions. The Evanston one is elevated all the way from the loop, the on a enbankment in Evanston and goes to street level just before the last stop Wilmett--Linden. Have fun and if you want any other info reguarding Chicago or it's El's E-mail me!
  - Subject: Re: Chicago's Green Line
  - Message Number: 757534
  - Posted by: Joe M
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:44 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Chicago's Green Line posted by BJ633@aol.com on August 23, 1997 at 12:41:12: When you ride the red line don't forget the skokie swift from Howard street. It is the last remaining section of the High Speed north shore route from Milwaukee to Chicago. It is a fas ride and you change from 3rd rail to cantanary about 1/3 of the way into the ride. Non stop from Howard to Dempster. Its a fast ride. The old terminal building is identical to several that were built at the time the line was constructed. It is one of 2 remaining that I know of the other is a spagetti place in Kenosha
    - Subject: Re: Chicago's Green Line
    - Message Number: 757544
    - Posted by: Bryan Layne
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:52 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Chicago's Green Line posted by Timothy on August 23, 1997 at 02:50:13: Oh get real!!!As long as your not runnin around the el station at 1:00 in the morning yelling obcenities at people...nothing is going to happen to you.Its not Sarievo...your not going to have a problem anywere in Chicago in the middle of day unless your looking for it.
      - Subject: Re: Chicago's Green Line
      - Message Number: 757564
      - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Chicago's Green Line posted by BJ633@aol.com on August 23, 1997 at 12:41:12: > The 54th/Cermak branch is one of the worst El's in neighborhoods going > throught and condition. You proabaly won't want to photograph it or ride > it. Even the end of the Line 54th/Cermak in Cicero is a horrible > neighborhood. Interesting. I rode it from O'Hare to 54th/Cermak in the front car with a camcorder on from terminal to terminal. No one bothered me. I did this late in the day on a weekday; the return trip was at night. Here's where I went for photo and video stops outside the Loop (I'm also not from Chicago) : - Howard. (Red/Purple/Yellow). Great view of Howard yard, Metra in background, Evanston Exp leaving in the distance, Skokie swift coming in under Evanston trains. - Loyola. (Red). Parking garage just outside of station. Can see clear down 4 track mainline almost to Sheridan. - Belmont. (Red, Brown, Purple) Pedestrian overpass over Howard/Dan Ryan trains. Good view south to Fullerton. Good view north as Ravenswood trains and Howard/Dan Ryan & Evanston Exp merge. - Fullerton (Red, Brown, Purple). - Chicago (Av) on the Ravenswood line. Station is curved. - Ravenswood Terminal. - Any grade crossing near the end of the Ravenswood Line. I didn't get a chance to ride all the lines when I was there and I didn't ride the Green Line at all. (Just ran out of time). Dave's gonna be getting my pictures in about 2 weeks and expect them to appear on this web site a short time after that. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Chicago's Green Line
        Message Number: 757569
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Chicago's Green Line posted by Mark S Feinman on August 25, 1997 at 13:07:49: A smorgasbord of CTA equipment can be seen at the heavy maintenance yard on Oakton in Skokie. There is construction on the street now, so I couldn't really slow down to take a look, but there seemed to be one each of various old car models. I passed by there yesterday.
        
        Subject: Re: Chicago's Green Line
        Message Number: 757573
        Posted by: aaron
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:17 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Chicago's Green Line posted by Charles Fiori on August 25, 1997 at 13:35:45: I drove by there at the end of June. It appears they are rebuilding the shops. I saw a few old cars that were built by the St. Louis Car company in the '50s. The one car from the 6000 series in the green and white paint scheme used to be parked along the wall of the old structure. When I was a kid (in the late 60s, early 70s), I used to ride my bicycle to the back doors and watch the workmen fix the trains...Throughout the years, all of the scrapping of old equipment was handled there. You can ride by on the yellow line to get a view from the other side...
        
        Subject: Re: Chicago's Green Line
        Message Number: 757615
        Posted by: Bingo
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:50 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Chicago's Green Line posted by Timothy on August 23, 1997 at 02:50:13: I would have to say that the most depressing part of the CTA are the three westerly stations outside on the blue line; Damen, Western and California. It's like riding through a slum, all the chopshops and shacks alongside. The loop is very nice to ride through. It's what makes the city unique. Don't worry about uncouth people. The folks in Chicago are very nice. You shouldn't run into any trouble at all.

Thread title: needs (757523)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:14:36 1997, by IRM

Subject: needs
Message Number: 757523
Posted by: IRM
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:36 1997

If you were able to install new lines, building from scratch and utilizing new/existing trackage, what would u do. Here are my top 5 1) airport shuttle create a loop from roosevelt 74th/ down to La Guardia then down va woodside to link with existing LIRR (rockawAy) spur no longer in use. 2) queens extension the 7 down past queens college to Bayside 3) Kings Plaza direct 4) LIRR/Penny Bridge convert; express train from Jamaica with stop at Metropolitan (M) to link with 7 at LIC 5) second ave subway, of course, with connection to 7 (new 2nd ave station for 7) Just my thoughts....
- Subject: needs
- Message Number: 757524
- Posted by: IRM
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:36 1997
  
  If you were able to install new lines, building from scratch and utilizing new/existing trackage, what would u do. Here are my top 5 1) airport shuttle create a loop from roosevelt 74th/ down to La Guardia then down va woodside to link with existing LIRR (rockawAy) spur no longer in use. 2) queens extension the 7 down past queens college to Bayside 3) Kings Plaza direct 4) LIRR/Penny Bridge convert; express train from Jamaica with stop at Metropolitan (M) to link with 7 at LIC 5) second ave subway, of course, with connection to 7 (new 2nd ave station for 7) Just my thoughts....
  - Subject: Re: needs
  - Message Number: 757526
  - Posted by: Bill Ruiz
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:38 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]needs posted by IRM on August 23, 1997 at 05:01:05: 1) The airport shuttle has been a long standing battle that I am not quite sure at this point who is winning or losing. I do know that certain civic groups along that proposed path of the airport shuttle do not want it because they think it will be another "noisy train" in their back yards. There are not too many right-of-ways existing in Queens that would serve a feasibile route. 2) The extension of the #7 line is probably a dead issue now that the double fare zones have been eliminated. Since NYCTA is upgrading the Flushing station which is underground, to continue the underground route would not be feasible considering the disruption it would cause local neighborhoods. To put it aboveground as in the elevated sense, you can be sure that local civic groups would never go for that idea at all. Besides, as a resident of Bayside, I too don't want a subway out in our "neck of the woods." The LIRR serves us quite well with good express service to Manhattan in 20 mintutes.

Thread title: Subway Stories on HBO. (757527)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:14:39 1997, by FRED WELLMAN

Subject: Subway Stories on HBO.
Message Number: 757527
Posted by: FRED WELLMAN
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:39 1997

I realize everyone does not have HBO but I am supprised that no one has mentioned this show. It had a lot of station and train shots. Is it filmed in NYC?
- Subject: Re: Subway Stories on HBO.
- Message Number: 757528
- Posted by: ~airplane
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:40 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Subway Stories on HBO. posted by FRED WELLMAN on August 23, 1997 at 17:31:37: Yes, I believe it was shot in NYC, based on the following key pieces of evidence: 1-Made by HBO NYC Productions, not the California unit. 2-The final scene where the camera is turned around to show us the crew clogging the end of the passageway in Grand Central. 3-The use of the police squad assigned only to movies and television (check the credits). By the way, if anyone missed the movie, set your VCRs for Monday morning at 1:00 AM, or wait until next Saturday.

Thread title: Another system grows again (757533)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:14:44 1997, by Mark Greenwald

Subject: Another system grows again
Message Number: 757533
Posted by: Mark Greenwald
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:44 1997

To those that are interested, the Central Light Rail Line running through North/South through the city of Baltimore will be growing again on the Northern end. A segment to Hunt Valley will begin operation on Tuesday, September 9th. The segment will include 5 new stations north of the current terminus at Timonium. the 5 new stations are at Warren Road, Gilroy Road, McCormick Road, Pepper Road, and the Hunt Valley Mall. All of the stations are located in the MASSIVE Hunt Valley business community. Such major corporations like MCI, AT & T, and the world Headquarters for the McCormick Spice Company are located here, soooooo, Michael Adler, it's time to update your map....have fun.
- Subject: Re: Another system grows again
- Message Number: 757537
- Posted by: Zack
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:47 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Another system grows again posted by Mark Greenwald on August 23, 1997 at 21:42:57: is there any projected ridership for the new extension?? did they buy any new cars for the line??
  - Subject: Re: Another system grows again
  - Message Number: 757541
  - Posted by: Michael Adler
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:50 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Another system grows again posted by Mark Greenwald on August 23, 1997 at 21:42:57: Thanks Mark, will update the map, as soon as I get the station names (or even better, a map :-) Michael Adler Lakewood, ColorFUL Colorado City Letter Carrier serving Wheat Ridge & Mountain View (not Netscape's hoemtown )
    - Subject: Re: Another system grows again
    - Message Number: 757543
    - Posted by: Mark Greenwald
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:51 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Another system grows again posted by Michael Adler on August 24, 1997 at 14:49:07: Mike, A map is on the way, Mark
      - Subject: Re: Another system grows again
      - Message Number: 757584
      - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:26 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Another system grows again posted by Zack on August 24, 1997 at 02:18:25: The MTA has ordered 18 additional cars from ADTRANZ, to match the original 35. The order has been delayed (seriously) and the other two extensions (Penn Station and BWI Airport) will not open until the 18 cars have arrived and been accepted. I understand that one car was received and was promptly returned to Elmira. Late/troublesome deliveries seem to be the norm for ADTRANZ and there are rumors that the firm will be withdrawing from the transit market.
        
        Subject: Re: Another system grows again
        Message Number: 757645
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Another system grows again posted by Dan Lawrence on August 26, 1997 at 12:45:13: Latest news: One car of the 18 has been delivered and is being acceptance tested. The MTA has issued a new schedule for the CLRL showing Monday, September 8 as the effective date for the Hunt Valley extension.

Thread title: WHAT A FAKE!! (was MIMIC) (757538)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:14:47 1997, by John

Subject: WHAT A FAKE!! (was MIMIC)
Message Number: 757538
Posted by: John
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:47 1997

In Reply to: [5]MIMIC posted by John on August 21, 1997 at 00:03:20: I just saw the movie Mimic yesterday. All I can say is, the one thing it didn't mimic was the accuracy concerning the subway. Did anybody see the movie? Aside from sub-human life forms breeding in the subway (which might not be so *inaccurate* - sometimes you wonder . . . ) I bet not one shot of that movie was shot on MTA property. The Delancy Street station was completely wrong (since when do station lights flicker on and off like that?) The trains were totally alien to New York, and that old, abandoned subway car - the "CR-17"? The only thing that car even slightly resembled was an R-17, and that was because of the end door (with the circular window). Aside from that, how do you like those things? Good job - the females were supposed to be sterile, but they wound up getting pregnant anyway. Sounds like the [only] male should've been more "careful" :-)

Thread title: Bridge Trains (was Re: NYC Subway (Brooklyn Bridge) (757539)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:14:48 1997, by subway-buff

Subject: Bridge Trains (was Re: NYC Subway (Brooklyn Bridge)
Message Number: 757539
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:48 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway (Brooklyn Bridge) posted by Michael Adler on August 21, 1997 at 23:28:12: In July of this year In toured both bridges- WB and MB with city engineers. First the WB: The city is rebuilding the Transit line from Marcy to Essex including a "new" bridge within ta bridge for the J Train. Sometime in 1999 they will ,after making sure the new steel is on site, tear down the train structure across the WB and do a 100% rebuild. If you will walk across the WB from the Brooklyn Side to Manhattan side, you can already see the supports for the new "transit structure". Next the MB: Yes the city is aware of the twisting the bridge faces when two trains enter the bridge from opposite ends. They are already adding steel stiffening girders under the currently closed train tracks (To Canal Street unused platform.) When this side of the bridge is completed and painted, they will close the tracks to 6th ave(now used by B,D,Q) and do likewise. The engineer advised that MB should be open in 1999 including the walkway next to the "Broadway Line Subway Tracks." The repairs the city is doing will ensure that both bridges last another 100 years * I F * they maintain the bridges. Yes-they will have to temporarily take trains of the WB for the 6 months to tear down and rebuild.

Thread title: Re: Chicago's Green Line (to BJ633@aol.com) (757542)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:14:51 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Re: Chicago's Green Line (to BJ633@aol.com)
Message Number: 757542
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:51 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Chicago's Green Line posted by BJ633@aol.com on August 23, 1997 at 12:41:12: Did you get any of my E-mail messages? I sent you messages yesterday, through both my Erol's, and CompuServe addresses. I've been experiencing problems with sending E-mail through my Erol's address. The mail does not always go through. Please let me know if you are receiving my messages.

Thread title: ANY MORE INFO? (757548)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:14:55 1997, by Nick

Subject: ANY MORE INFO?
Message Number: 757548
Posted by: Nick
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:55 1997

My thanks to zack for giving the info on how the GTC arrival/departure board will probably be digital. I'm also wondering when this board will be installed, and when therenovation of GTC is scheduled to be completed-THANK YOU!

Thread title: Electric Yard Fences? (757550)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:14:57 1997, by Bryan Layne

Subject: Electric Yard Fences?
Message Number: 757550
Posted by: Bryan Layne
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:57 1997

Does the TA have any electric fences(would be 2or 3 fences in)around the yards?
- Subject: Re: Electric Yard Fences?
- Message Number: 757551
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:14:58 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Electric Yard Fences? posted by Bryan Layne on August 24, 1997 at 23:32:47: No - not as yet. Most yards are fenced with two parallel chain link fences with razor ribbon on top of the fences and in between the fences. Electrified fences, I believe, are illegal.
  - Subject: Re: Electric Yard Fences?
  - Message Number: 757559
  - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:05 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Electric Yard Fences? posted by Steve on August 25, 1997 at 00:04:42: When one considers that subway vandals have dealt with razor wire and done their deeds in close proximity to 600 volts DC, they probably wouldn't find any deterrent in a electric fence. Even if legal, it probably wouldn't be much of a deterrent. Vigilance by security forces and unpleasant punishments are the best deterrent!
    - Subject: Re: Electric Yard Fences?
    - Message Number: 757567
    - Posted by: Charles Fiori
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:12 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Electric Yard Fences? posted by Gerry O'Regan on August 25, 1997 at 12:04:47: When Corona and Pelham Yards were first double-fenced/razor ribboned back in 1981, I remember taking a tour as part of my job in the General manager's office. On walking along the back (south) fence of Corona, along the LIRR tracks, and then encountering the fence, there was a German Shepherd run in between the two fences. 2 of the most docile animals I've ever seen greeted us and monitored our progress. Maybe they were trained to be fierce only if you ended up in between.
      - Subject: Re: Electric Yard Fences?
      - Message Number: 757572
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Electric Yard Fences? posted by Gerry O'Regan on August 25, 1997 at 12:04:47: The razor ribbon is not a deturrent for the most committed vandals. They have only to throw an old tire or mattress over the razor wire to cross it. Since the police and courts treat graffiti as an annoyance more than a crime, I'd like to have the Cleaner, who have to scrub the paint by hand in the hot sun and freezing cold, dispense some trackside justice to the miscreants. (of course, that would be illegal)
        
        Subject: Re: Electric Yard Fences?
        Message Number: 757623
        Posted by: JAY
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Electric Yard Fences? posted by Steve on August 25, 1997 at 15:11:23: THE SUBWAY SYSTEM IN NEW YORK LOST ALL OF ITS LUSTER WHEN THEY STARTED TO CRACK DOWN ON THE SUBWAY ART, NOW THE TRAINS LOOK PLAIN AND LIKE ANY OTHER CITY, SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO BE OPEN MINDED ENOUGH TO LIVE. ENJOY EXPRESSIONS AND ORIGINALITY THAT NY SUBWAY SYSTEM HAS NOW LOST
        
        Subject: Re: Electric Yard Fences?
        Message Number: 757626
        Posted by: Zack
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Electric Yard Fences? posted by JAY on August 28, 1997 at 18:12:07: Art??? Graffitti is not art it is vandalism i think art would be proffreshnley(?) painted murals on some of the cars :) that would look kinda cool :)
        
        Subject: Re: Electric Yard Fences?
        Message Number: 757634
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Electric Yard Fences? posted by JAY on August 28, 1997 at 18:12:07: Will you please get a real life! The overwhelming majority of NYC residents would find your position outrageous if not just plain stupid. Graffiti sends a message of indifference and neglect. It causes the NYCT customers to feel just a little less safe. These are not the messages that the NYCT wishes to convey to it's customers. If you think the NYCT cars look boring, look at your personal auto. It would probably look boring to me. Why not let the graffiti artists paint your car and then you can pay to have the damage undone instead of the NYC taxpayers.
        
        Subject: Re: Electric Yard Fences?
        Message Number: 757698
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:56 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Electric Yard Fences? posted by JAY on August 28, 1997 at 18:12:07: Take your caps lock and find a new web site, please.
        
        Subject: Re: Electric Yard Fences?
        Message Number: 757785
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Electric Yard Fences? posted by Charles Fiori on September 02, 1997 at 16:56:32: AMEN !!!

Thread title: Any Open Houses? (757560)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:15:06 1997, by Charles

Subject: Any Open Houses?
Message Number: 757560
Posted by: Charles
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:06 1997

Does Anyone know if MTA NYC Transit is schedueling any open houses any time soon? My prefrences are 207 St. Yd, Concourse, Pelham Diesel Shop, or any other shops or Yards. Another quick question, Does anyone know of locations that someone could photograph subways (revenue or Non Revenue) without tresspassing on NYCT property?
- Subject: Any Open Houses?
- Message Number: 757561
- Posted by: Charles
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:06 1997
  
  Does Anyone know if MTA NYC Transit is schedueling any open houses any time soon? My prefrences are 207 St. Yd, Concourse, Pelham Diesel Shop, or any other shops or Yards. Another quick question, Does anyone know of locations that someone could photograph subways (revenue or Non Revenue) without tresspassing on NYCT property?
  - Subject: Re: Any Open Houses?
  - Message Number: 757563
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:08 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Any Open Houses? posted by Charles on August 25, 1997 at 12:36:20: Not sure what you mean when you ask for places to photograph the subway without trespassing-- photography on the subway (for the xxxth time) is LEGAL. That being said, some of my favorite off-system locations are the bridge over Corona Yard (Shea Stadium station), and the walk around the 36th-38th St. yard (Ninth Avenue station). Much of the 36th St Yard is visible from the road along its northern side. Mark F. likes the ped. bridge at West 8th St. Coney Island. There's also lots of areas over the Brighton and West End lines that would make good vantage points. I think there is a road bridge over Concourse Yard too. If you're daring, there's the Bronx River Parkway bridge over East 180th St. (kidding! don't try this at home) Most of the other areas I can think of would require trespassing on someone else's property... If you're interested in PATH, I know some nice places to go that are outside of PATH property... --Dave
    - Subject: Re: Any Open Houses?
    - Message Number: 757589
    - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:30 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Any Open Houses? posted by Charles on August 25, 1997 at 12:35:07: At Concourse yards there are two bridges which pass over the yards, one is Bedford Park Blvd between Jerome and Paul Aves. And a couple of blocks north is 205th street also between Jerome and Paul Avenues. You can also get pictures of Concourse yard from the northern end of the southbound platform at Bedford Park Blvd. station on the #4 line. At 207th Street you can stand on the University Heights (207th Street) bridge, but it's probably about 1000 ft from the yard.
      - Subject: Re: Any Open Houses?
      - Message Number: 757602
      - Posted by: Charles Fiori
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Any Open Houses? posted by David Pirmann on August 25, 1997 at 13:06:12: David--I wonder if any of your parishioners who are often given to nostalgia remember the open houses held at places like Coney Island, 36th Street, etc. back in 1979-80. I remember showing up at Coney Island on a Saturday morning and there was a huge line out the gate and around on Avenue X. Lots of great exhibits inside and later a ride on a Triplex around the loop track. The 36th Street Open House was all outdoors. Anyone care to fill in other details???
        
        Subject: Re: Any Open Houses?
        Message Number: 757607
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Any Open Houses? posted by David Pirmann on August 25, 1997 at 13:06:12: Actually, I was sorely tempted to go onto the Bronx River Parkway to view the southern stub of the Dyre Avenue line, but my nerve gave out 8-S.
        
        Subject: Re: Any Open Houses?
        Message Number: 757608
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Any Open Houses? posted by Charles Fiori on August 27, 1997 at 17:32:27: OH, YES! The Coney Island one occured in November 1979 to celebrate the Diamond Jubilee. I also waited on that line, right on McDonald Avenue, but the line moved fairly quickly. Upon entering they gave us a couple of stapled, photocopied booklets giving statistical info about the subway and a list of all the 'R' contracts and car numbers that went with them (information, that, at that time, I was willing to KILL for!), as well as some paraphernalia like pens and stuff (I might still have the pen 8-)). After that, we went touring around the shops seeing how everything worked, etc. If you've been to the Croton-Harmon open house, it was similar, but we didn't climb into the cars, and it was really more like a constant stream of people, as opposed to groups. The tour trains (there were two) were not Triplexes, but were Low V's and the BRT gate cars. What they did was, they would nudge the train one or two car lengths into the shop (so as not to expose the public to the wonders of the third rail 8-)), and people would climb wooden steps into the innermost car. The train would then pull out of the shop and visit all the fun places. We got to see cars that had been involved in wrecks including a pair of R38's and R40's. I was surprised that the wrecks were in such good condition aside from the crash damage. They still had the original paint schemes (the operating R38's and R40's lost the blue stripes by then) and otherwise looked fairly clean and intact. We also saw the clearance car (the R1 that was extended to 75 feet) and the AB standards that made the Nostalgia train (which had stopped running by then). I don't remember all the exhibits, but one that caught my eye was a photo exhibit of the previous open house at Coney Island, 15 years before that, titled, I think, "Were you there?". As for the 36th Street one, my details are a little hazier because I really wasn't as interested in the maintenance-of-way department (sorry guys!). I do remember a union protest outside the entrance, complaining about how the MTA wasted money on things like "open houses" 8-). Inside were the usual displays, but somehow there was a little less freedom, and the souvenirs were standard stuff (mostly bumper stickers). They demonstrated things like rail welding, train controls and the like. There was at least one tour train (BRT gate cars) that actually left the yard and went on the West End line for a distance. There might have been a second train, but I don't remember. At the end of the tour, I remember we were shuttled back to the train station in a GM fishbowl bus. Well, enough of my yakking. Does anyone else remember any other details, or anything about the 207th Street open house that occurred just before Coney Island?
        
        Subject: Re: Any Open Houses?
        Message Number: 757609
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Any Open Houses? posted by Charles Fiori on August 27, 1997 at 17:32:27: OH, YES! The Coney Island one occured in November 1979 to celebrate the Diamond Jubilee. I also waited on that line, right on McDonald Avenue, but the line moved fairly quickly. Upon entering they gave us a couple of stapled, photocopied booklets giving statistical info about the subway and a list of all the 'R' contracts and car numbers that went with them (information, that, at that time, I was willing to KILL for!), as well as some paraphernalia like pens and stuff (I might still have the pen 8-)). After that, we went touring around the shops seeing how everything worked, etc. If you've been to the Croton-Harmon open house, it was similar, but we didn't climb into the cars, and it was really more like a constant stream of people, as opposed to groups. The tour trains (there were two) were not Triplexes, but were Low V's and the BRT gate cars. What they did was, they would nudge the train one or two car lengths into the shop (so as not to expose the public to the wonders of the third rail 8-)), and people would climb wooden steps into the innermost car. The train would then pull out of the shop and visit all the fun places. We got to see cars that had been involved in wrecks including a pair of R38's and R40's. I was surprised that the wrecks were in such good condition aside from the crash damage. They still had the original paint schemes (the operating R38's and R40's lost the blue stripes by then) and otherwise looked fairly clean and intact. We also saw the clearance car (the R1 that was extended to 75 feet) and the AB standards that made the Nostalgia train (which had stopped running by then). I don't remember all the exhibits, but one that caught my eye was a photo exhibit of the previous open house at Coney Island, 15 years before that, titled, I think, "Were you there?". As for the 36th Street one, my details are a little hazier because I really wasn't as interested in the maintenance-of-way department (sorry guys!). I do remember a union protest outside the entrance, complaining about how the MTA wasted money on things like "open houses" 8-). Inside were the usual displays, but somehow there was a little less freedom, and the souvenirs were standard stuff (mostly bumper stickers). They demonstrated things like rail welding, train controls and the like. There was at least one tour train (BRT gate cars) that actually left the yard and went on the West End line for a distance. There might have been a second train, but I don't remember. At the end of the tour, I remember we were shuttled back to the train station in a GM fishbowl bus. Well, enough of my yakking. Does anyone else remember any other details, or anything about the 207th Street open house that occurred just before Coney Island?
        
        Subject: Re: Any Open Houses?
        Message Number: 757620
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Any Open Houses? posted by Andrew Huie on August 28, 1997 at 02:35:59: (sighhhhhhhh) :-) Yes, I was at both open houses. I was near the front of the line for the Coney Island one with my pocket 110 camera. I think the open house opened at 10 or 11; I was on line by 8. I still have some of the pictures (but I think they'd come out horribly in a scan!). I remember taking many rides on the open gate and the Lo-V cars most of the way around the loop track, marvelling at the chance of being so close to the various types of equipment at that time. Since there were no museum tours like there are now, this was, like, being in heaven for a day. I do remember demonstrations of the cranes used to lift the cars for truck removal. They were raising and lowering and moving an R-27, freshly painted in the silver & blue stripe MTA scheme. There were R-27s and R-30s and R-40s and R-42s on "stands" that you could get up close and personal with. Some were freshly painted; others were freshly grafitti'ed. As for the 36th st open house, I think we were taken up the West End Express track to as far south as 62nd St where we turned back for a return trip to the yard. (Wish we woulda gone to the lower level of 9th Ave). I think the gate cars were used again. We were given a roster of MoW equipment. I don't remember any demos during that open house but my recollection of that is, as was Andrew's, hazy. Then there was the time I was in high school in 1977 and my friend's father (who worked at the Coney Island shops at the time) took the two of us in with him for the day while he worked. Boy was it great being able to help move trains in the yards getting trains ready for service and servicing! I think I even wrote down how to charge up and operate a train after I got back home (I was so excited)! --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Any Open Houses?
        Message Number: 757637
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Any Open Houses? posted by Mark S Feinman on August 28, 1997 at 15:28:20: Most excellent. The reaction from you two guys was exactly what I sought. I have a memento from the Coney Island event, which is a gold subway wheel, mounted on a diamond-shaped (get it?) wooden plaque. I believe I still have pictures of the event, like the R27/30 being lifted up, R46 on horses, etc. My job at the TA in the early 80s allowed me to visit many of the repair facilities and even to work at one (240th St-what a pit when I got there!). My favorites were undoubtedly Coney Island (one of my best friends ended up running the place), Corona/Flushing (my formative years were spent riding the Q15 & #7, & going to Shea), & East New York Bus (there was a treasure trove of bus memorabilia lying around that they would rather throw out.)

Thread title: Favorite Places to Photograph Trains or Buses (757562)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:15:07 1997, by Charles

Subject: Favorite Places to Photograph Trains or Buses
Message Number: 757562
Posted by: Charles
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:07 1997

I am interested in what other buffs have to say on this matter. What places are preferable for you to photograph trains or buses in side or outside of property lines in NY or NJ? I have a few prefrences. 1. Smith & 9th streets with manhattan back drop. 2. Jamaica Station on the LIRR 3. Croton Harmon on Metro North Railroad 4. Newark Penn Station on NJT 5. Franklin Ave on NCS
- Subject: Re: Favorite Places to Photograph Trains or Buses
- Message Number: 757565
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:10 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Favorite Places to Photograph Trains or Buses posted by Charles on August 25, 1997 at 12:42:09: We just discussed this last week: Look back for these posts: [7]Mark's Favourite Lines Re: NYC Subway - Mark S Feinman 14:40:43 08/22/1997 [8]Re: NYC Subway - David Pirmann 15:57:54 08/21/1997 [9]Re: Exploring and phtographing the NYCTA - David Pirmann 22:48:01 08/19/1997 Dave

Thread title: Re: More Historical Questions (Ex-SIRT cars on BMT) (757566)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:15:11 1997, by Ed Sachs

Subject: Re: More Historical Questions (Ex-SIRT cars on BMT)
Message Number: 757566
Posted by: Ed Sachs
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:11 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: More Historical Questions posted by Gerry O'Regan on August 23, 1997 at 19:41:06: Yes, the SIRT cars were purchased with a connection to the BMT in mind. The NYCTA fully expected these cars to MU with the BMT standards when they bought them. They didn't. They were operated in trains of only the ex-SIRT cars, first on the Culver line, and later on the West End local (Nassau St) line, until they were retired when the R-27s arrived in 1961. I remember riding these old cars once or twice. While they were the same size and shape as the BMT standards, and shared the split center door with the conductor's door controls in the middle, they had vestibule end doors and walkover seats which the standards didn't have. They also gave a much poorer ride than the standards (much noisier, more rattles). Since they didn't have destination signs, they were equipped with steel plate destination signs from old el cars. The ex-SIRT cars were not the only colorful equipment that the BMT ran in the late '50s. They also ran ex-IRT low-Vs on the Franklin and Culver shuttle lines, and the ex-Fulton St el multi-section cars on the Myrtle Ave- Chambers (now M) line. All of this ended when the R-27s arrived.

Thread title: Any interest in CDROMs of photos - TARS, Brooklyn Trolleys, etc.? (757568)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:15:13 1997, by David Pirmann

Subject: Any interest in CDROMs of photos - TARS, Brooklyn Trolleys, etc.?
Message Number: 757568
Posted by: David Pirmann
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:13 1997

Hello, Is anyone out there interested in TARS (Third Avenue Railway System, which was mostly trolleys in the Bronx and Westchester) or Brooklyn trolleys (Peter Witts, PCC's, etc). I have a whole load of slides of these. I'll probably put a selective few up on the site but I was thinking of making the whole bunch into a CDROM. The TARS slides are half B/W, half color. The Brooklyn trolley photos are mostly B/W. I haven't done an inventory yet but I might have a photo of *every* Brooklyn PCC. I also have Queensborough Bridge trolleys and some other unusual things. Or, would anyone be interested in a CDROM that is photos of (for instance) IRT Low-V's, or BMT cars (B types, D types, Q types, C types, gate cars, etc)? These would mostly be photos that are not on any web site. Or a collection of stuff that is already on the web site in a handy single location (no more lengthy downloading of our photos). If you were interested what would you pay for a CDROM like that? $25 each? I expect they would simply be photos with numbers for names and an index of date and location (when known-- many of the slides are undated and unlabeled). It would be burned by me and probably duplicated at a CD cutter shop, with (hopefully nice) color covers. The photos would be of equivalent quality as the recent slide scans that I've put up. This would be in order to help finance running the web site - Internet connection, new hardware (which will be needed soon), and aquisition of slides to put up... Please comment. --Dave
- Subject: Re: Any interest in CDROMs of photos - TARS, Brooklyn Trolleys, etc.?
- Message Number: 757574
- Posted by: Zack
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:18 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Any interest in CDROMs of photos - TARS, Brooklyn Trolleys, etc.? posted by David Pirmann on August 25, 1997 at 13:27:29: i think that would be a good idea- if you come out with it i will put it on my christmas list :)
  - Subject: Re: Any interest in CDROMs of photos - TARS, Brooklyn Trolleys, etc.?
  - Message Number: 757592
  - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:32 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Any interest in CDROMs of photos - TARS, Brooklyn Trolleys, etc.? posted by David Pirmann on August 25, 1997 at 13:27:29: I think I would be interested, and I'll bet that many of the Streetcar Museums would be too.
    - Subject: Re: Any interest in CDROMs of photos - TARS, Brooklyn Trolleys, etc.?
    - Message Number: 757594
    - Posted by: Joe M
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:33 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Any interest in CDROMs of photos - TARS, Brooklyn Trolleys, etc.? posted by David Pirmann on August 25, 1997 at 13:27:29: Your streetcar CD sounds like a good idea and I would be interested. Speaking of funding this site, how do you fund it?? I have never seen any information about support. I really enjoy your pages and so do other people that I have told about it.
      - Subject: Re: Any interest in CDROMs of photos - TARS, Brooklyn Trolleys, etc.?
      - Message Number: 757597
      - Posted by: David Pirmann
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Any interest in CDROMs of photos - TARS, Brooklyn Trolleys, etc.? posted by Joe M on August 26, 1997 at 23:22:44: > Speaking of funding this site, how do you fund it?? From my pocket and donations of material from others. I won't get into the details but the hardware (web server, scanners, machine to do development on, etc.) and Internet service costs are self-funded. --Dave
        
        Subject: Re: Any interest in CDROMs of photos - TARS, Brooklyn Trolleys, etc.?
        Message Number: 757598
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Any interest in CDROMs of photos - TARS, Brooklyn Trolleys, etc.? posted by David Pirmann on August 25, 1997 at 13:27:29: Dave, when it comes to stuff like this I'm always interested! --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Any interest in CDROMs of photos - TARS, Brooklyn Trolleys, etc.?
        Message Number: 757610
        Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:46 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Any interest in CDROMs of photos - TARS, Brooklyn Trolleys, etc.? posted by David Pirmann on August 25, 1997 at 13:27:29: Yesiree Bob! Let's get Bill Russel's carfloat/freight photos into as well. And anyone else willing to join up. It would be so much better than having to scout through dozens of train books to find a picture you remembered seeing...
        
        Subject: Re: Any interest in CDROMs of photos - TARS, Brooklyn Trolleys, etc.?
        Message Number: 757627
        Posted by: MIKE AYER
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Any interest in CDROMs of photos - TARS, Brooklyn Trolleys, etc.? posted by Dan Lawrence on August 26, 1997 at 19:37:44: count me in as interested

Thread title: Speaking of open houses... (757570)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:15:15 1997, by Nick

Subject: Speaking of open houses...
Message Number: 757570
Posted by: Nick
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:15 1997

Speaking of open houses, I was wondering if the MTA gives tours of the abandoned subway stations?
- Subject: Re: Speaking of open houses...
- Message Number: 757571
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:15 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Speaking of open houses... posted by Nick on August 25, 1997 at 13:58:06: All the time. The Transit Museum runs tours all year long. They are open to the public but members have a 2-week period each season to sign up before public sign-up. Tours mostly fill up during this time. They have one tour called Day One on the IRT which will usually visit 91st St, 18th St, Brooklyn Bridge, and City Hall. They have a tour called Routes Not Built, which will visit places like lower City Hall BMT, Roosevelt Ave., etc. Call them for details (718-243-3060). If you're a subway fan in NYC and you're not a member of the Transit Museum you're doing yourself a disservice.
  - Subject: Re: Speaking of open houses...
  - Message Number: 757576
  - Posted by: Zack
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:19 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Speaking of open houses... posted by David Pirmann on August 25, 1997 at 14:39:40: do they use old historical cars on thoes???
    - Subject: Re: Speaking of open houses...
    - Message Number: 757577
    - Posted by: David L.
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:20 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Speaking of open houses... posted by David Pirmann on August 25, 1997 at 14:39:40: Why isn't a visit to the Worth Street Station included in the Day One on the IRT tour?
      - Subject: Re: Speaking of open houses...
      - Message Number: 757578
      - Posted by: David Pirmann
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Speaking of open houses... posted by Zack on August 25, 1997 at 21:22:55: The Abandoned Station tours are generally run as follows: group meets at some station. Waits for in service train to arrive. Group gets on and TA museum staff member instructs the motorman to stop at the station in question (91st St. for instance). I assume there's a General Order or some notice put out in advance of this :) A single door is keyed open to let the group out. Then, when the group is ready to leave, the TA staffer flags down an approaching train... The Nostalgia Trains (there was one yesterday in fact) use old cars, mostly the BMT D-Types. There's an IRT Low-V trip coming up, run by the Railway Preservation Corp., call 718-346-9000 for info. It costs $40. The date is 9/14/97 (Sunday). And as for Worth Street, maybe they just don't think it's as interesting as the others, and when you only have time for a few stops... --Dave
        
        Subject: Re: Speaking of open houses...
        Message Number: 757580
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Speaking of open houses... posted by David Pirmann on August 25, 1997 at 23:10:09: I believe I remember that Worth St was not lenghtened in the early sixties, and so would be only four cars in length. Stopping the front car of a full length train at Worth St might result in blocking a switch to the South, or some other situation considered to be an unacceptable compromise to safety.
        
        Subject: Re: Speaking of open houses...
        Message Number: 757581
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Speaking of open houses... posted by David Pirmann on August 25, 1997 at 23:10:09: .... and it's always interesting to see the looks on people's faces when they see 80 or so people get on the train at 91st or 18th Streets. We simply explain to them that we've been waiting for a train since 1946 and this was the first in-service train to make the stop :-) --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Speaking of open houses...
        Message Number: 757647
        Posted by: Martin Lamarre
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Speaking of open houses... posted by David Pirmann on August 25, 1997 at 14:39:40: I'm a Montrealer .I'm very interested in disused subway stations as well as tenements around the boroughs of NYC. Where can I get some of your pictures or writings on this subject and where should I be looking if I were to get down to NYC. Also how dangerous is it to just walk into these buildings (subways, tenements). Where can we get a glimps of the old mid-70's subway cars that were full of graffiti.Are they still around?
        
        Subject: Re: Speaking of open houses...
        Message Number: 757652
        Posted by: John
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Speaking of open houses... posted by Mark S Feinman on August 26, 1997 at 12:26:52: Oh yeah, I'm sure they'll buy that :-)
        
        Subject: Re: Speaking of open houses...
        Message Number: 757665
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Speaking of open houses... posted by Martin Lamarre on August 30, 1997 at 22:46:16: Abandoned tenements are almost certainly dangerous. The condition of the floors and ceilings are highly questionable , and there will probably be a lot of sharp rubbish around (used needles, glass shards and the like). Not to mention possibly dangerous miscreants and squatters who might be in or around the building. As for the subways, there might be less rubbish but abandoned elevated stations especially might be really decrepit. And getting there without the assistance of transit personnel is extremely dangerous and/or illegal.
        
        Subject: Re: Speaking of open houses...
        Message Number: 757809
        Posted by: Marty Lamarre
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Speaking of open houses... posted by Andrew Huie on August 31, 1997 at 20:42:56: Which part of NYC is the most dangerous in terms of abandoned and disused tenements or subway stations in ruins. We keep on hearing about the South Bronx, Harlem and Brooklyn. Which other areas should I be looking at, and just how dangerous are we talking?

Thread title: Re: Newark PCC page (757579)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:15:22 1997, by Charlie Bonaire

Subject: Re: Newark PCC page
Message Number: 757579
Posted by: Charlie Bonaire
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:22 1997

In Reply to: [6]Newark PCC page posted by Joe M on August 16, 1997 at 00:40:23: I agree. Well done. (BTW, I still think NJT is crazy to dump them. Is it just to match up with other light rail projects planned for the area?)

Thread title: Jamaica Station LIRR (Re: Favorite Places to Photograph Trains or Buses) (757583)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:15:25 1997, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: Jamaica Station LIRR (Re: Favorite Places to Photograph Trains or Buses)
Message Number: 757583
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:25 1997

In Reply to: [6]Favorite Places to Photograph Trains or Buses posted by Charles on August 25, 1997 at 12:42:09: Just a word on Jamaica Station - this was the ONLY place that I was actually asked to leave when trying to take pictures. I have never had a problem anywhere else. I was not tresspassing onto any areas of track or closed platform - I was at the end of a platform that was clearly in regular passenger service. --Mark

Thread title: WHAT WAS WRONG????(Re: Blue Line Extension to WoodField Mall) (757586)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:15:27 1997, by BJ

Subject: WHAT WAS WRONG????(Re: Blue Line Extension to WoodField Mall)
Message Number: 757586
Posted by: BJ
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:27 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Blue Line Extension to WoodField Mall!!!!!!! posted by Bryan Layne on August 24, 1997 at 23:27:08: What details did I get wrong. I stated what the paper said. The end of the line would be at the mall, and the towns haven't decided yet, to do the study.

Thread title: "TA" movie beef!! (757588)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:15:29 1997, by Bryan Layne

Subject: "TA" movie beef!!
Message Number: 757588
Posted by: Bryan Layne
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:29 1997

What is the TA's beef with letting films be shot in the subway??When ever they make a movie with a subway seen that supposed to be NYC,they always shoot it in Toronto with TTC trains and fake route indicators....whats the deal?????
- Subject: Re: "TA" movie beef!!
- Message Number: 757590
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:30 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]"TA" movie beef!! posted by Bryan Layne on August 26, 1997 at 16:45:20: I don't think the TA is the problem. Hollywood, despite alleged multimillion budgets, is cheap. New York is expensive. End of story.
  - Subject: Re: "TA" movie beef!!
  - Message Number: 757593
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:33 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]"TA" movie beef!! posted by Bryan Layne on August 26, 1997 at 16:45:20: Many movies with US settings are being filmed in Canada these days. Filming costs are significantly lower there. So it's probably nothing particular to the subway.
    - Subject: Re: "TA" movie beef!!
    - Message Number: 757595
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:34 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]"TA" movie beef!! posted by Bryan Layne on August 26, 1997 at 16:45:20: There are many films which are shot on the NYCT system. The TA reviewed it's policy regarding the review of scripts following an alleged 'copycat' incident relating to a scene from the movie "Money Train". In the movie, a pyromaniac gets off torching Token Booths. Shortly after the release of the movie, several miscreants torched a Queens subway booth, killing the agent. Now, the TA will not permit a movie to be filmed on the system if the content might lead to a copycat crime.
      - Subject: Re: "TA" movie beef!!
      - Message Number: 757622
      - Posted by: Bingo
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:56 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]"TA" movie beef!! posted by Bryan Layne on August 26, 1997 at 16:45:20: No movie has ever been shot on the mainline TTC. The only place TTC will allow film makers is the abandoned Bay-Yorkville station under the Bay station currently in use, and three stations that were built far under the Danforth line. They were long abandoned, and noone knows much about them, (while you can catch a glimpse of the abandoned Bay station anyday, just go westbound from Yonge station and look to your left and down) The latest use of the abandoned Bay station to my knowledge was an Oh Henry! commercial that was shot down there. They used an H-1 train and pulled it in there. The train pulls into a station twice in the commercial but it's the same station, only a sexy girl gets on the second time.
        
        Subject: Re: "TA" movie beef!!
        Message Number: 757630
        Posted by: Bobw
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:02 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]"TA" movie beef!! posted by Bryan Layne on August 26, 1997 at 16:45:20: Further down this list there are a couple of notes on the HBO Subway Stories film. I saw it. It is shot entirely on the NY system. There are several obvious fakes (mainly with station locations - a couple of note are the so-called Broad St/Wall St station and a D train stopping at an underground Bay Parkway. The equipment gets around and assignments are a bit loose, but these are things any fan will pick up. Interestingly, the real Broad St station is used in one vignette near the end. It seems that parts of the film were made in the Nassau St line, perhaps on weekends when it is closed below Chambers. The film is a bit strange but worth watching for a fan's view. The "real" Church Ave station, Times Sq shuttle platforms and a couple of other notable locations were used, and it appears in one or two of the stories that real people may have been present during filming (the Church Ave piece sure looks that way!). A question not related to the film, but one that's always been on my mind - when the Nassau line closes south of Chambers on weekends, why do "owl" trains (12 Mid-6 AM) continue to Broad St? I would imagine that the reason for the closing of Fulton and Broad is savings (no tower operators, no token clerks) and the closeness of other lines nearby to serve what is probably relatively low patronage. Why would this not be the case in the middle of the night? Anybody know?
        
        Subject: Re: "TA" movie beef!!
        Message Number: 757636
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:07 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: "TA" movie beef!! posted by Steve on August 26, 1997 at 23:53:38: I saw several movies being filmed in the subways such as the Harrison Ford movie *didn't see him) at the Times Square Shuttle, one at the middle platform at Chambers st (J platforms).. As a future (if I am offered a position) Station Agent (Token Booth Clerk) I have taken an interested in the booth torching. 1- The station was Clinton/Washington on the IND Fulton Street (A/C) Line. The clerk was a smoker and disabled his fire suppressions system.. According to the book Uptown, Downtown (Author Unknown) The TA asked for anti-hijack insurance for Pelham 1-2-3 the movie. Steve, is there an actual Pelham 123 (I asked and they refused to say).
        
        Subject: Re: "TA" movie beef!!
        Message Number: 757651
        Posted by: John
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: "TA" movie beef!! posted by subway-buff on August 29, 1997 at 02:19:58: Pelham One-Two-Three was the #6 train. The train received that designation because it left the Pelham Bay Park station at 1:23 PM (1-2-3). I checked the timetable for the 6 line and there is no train scheduled to leave Pelham Bay Park at 1:23 PM. Monday-Friday, there is one at 1:22, and weekends, there is one at 1:24, but not 1:23.
        
        Subject: Re: "TA" movie beef!!
        Message Number: 757784
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: "TA" movie beef!! posted by subway-buff on August 29, 1997 at 02:19:58: While similarities to the movie "Money Train" and the recent token booth torchings are striking, they are by no means unique. Back in the 70s, 3 hoodlums torched the booth in Broad Channel because one of the clerks there had identified them earlier for fare evasion. The two clerks in the booth were killed. However, all booths are now equiped with a Halon Extinguisher system which will smother virtually all fires instantly and safely. It is suspected that the system in one of the recent incidents didn't operate because the agent smoked and had switched off (or defeated) the Halon system. In answer to your question about Pelham 1:23, let me say this. Work programs (schedules) change several times a year and it is quite possible that there might have been or might still be a Pelham 1:23. However, because of the 'notorious' connotation such call letters would have, especially over the radio, I'm sure that the schedule makers would likely try to avoid it. I'm sure that some customers would get a small knot in their guts if they heard the train operator calling over the radio, Control, come in for the Pelham 1:23."
        
        Subject: Re: "TA" movie beef!!
        Message Number: 757793
        Posted by: Todd Glickman
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: "TA" movie beef!! posted by Steve on September 05, 1997 at 20:16:28: And for the same reason, there will likely never again be a "TWA 800" or "Pan Am 103."
        
        Subject: Re: "TA" movie beef!!
        Message Number: 757794
        Posted by: Todd Glickman
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: "TA" movie beef!! posted by Steve on September 05, 1997 at 20:16:28: And for the same reason, there will likely never again be a "TWA 800" or "Pan Am 103."

Thread title: NJT Light Rail (757600)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:15:38 1997, by Lou from Middletown

Subject: NJT Light Rail
Message Number: 757600
Posted by: Lou from Middletown
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:38 1997

When exactly is the 1st segment (Hoboken to Bayonne ) of the the new "Waterfront Connection" light rail system.All you ever see about it is their ridership goals (200,000 a day by 2010!), but nada about projected openings. Just being curious as always....
- Subject: Re: NJT Light Rail
- Message Number: 757601
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:39 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]NJT Light Rail posted by Lou from Middletown on August 27, 1997 at 14:02:43: Not for a couple years I'd expect. They haven't begun construction at all (save for a parking lot) along the Jersey City - Grand Street - Waterfront - Hoboken stretch yet. There are still Jersey City NIMBYs protesting the selected Sussex Street route. I believe they've started construction along Rt 169 in Bayonne (last time I drove down there they had "switched" the location of Rt 169 and the RR tracks. Used to be road on the west, tracks on the east, now it's opposite. This was the CRRNJ corridor to Bayonne, BTW.) I'm curious as to where those 200,000 people are going to go. There isn't a whole lot of Bayonne-JC-Hoboken traffic, I'm betting. Considering the route selections in JC (Grand St.) and Hoboken (West Side) it isn't going to hit major residential or commercial corridors (as opposed to the initially proposed Jersey Avenue routing in JC and East Side of Hoboken). If they are expecting the HBLR to feed people into PATH (it will be stopping at Exchange Pl., Pavonia/Newport and Hoboken PATH stations) I don't know where they expect people to go. PATH lines (HOB-WTC, NWK-WTC and JSQ-33rd) are already at crush rush hour capacity. I've heard no plans from PATH to expand capacity... AFAICT, the HBLR isn't going to solve any Hudson County transportation problems given its poor route selection and PATH capacity issues... they will need to address this stuff before getting 200,000 a day! --Dave (JC resident who supported the Jersey Ave. routing)
  - Subject: Re: NJT Light Rail
  - Message Number: 757606
  - Posted by: Ted
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:43 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]NJT Light Rail posted by Lou from Middletown on August 27, 1997 at 14:02:43: Lou , The first segment of the LRT ( E 34 St. , Bayonne - Hoboken Terminal & Route 440 branch to West Side Av. ) is scheduled to open in the Fall of 1999. Ted
    - Subject: Re: NJT Light Rail
    - Message Number: 757612
    - Posted by: Charlie Bonaire
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:48 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: NJT Light Rail posted by David Pirmann on August 27, 1997 at 15:17:43: I agree PATH will be hard-pressed to handle the increased numbers. But I would opine, as a former Bayonne resident, that there will be plenty of commuters grateful to leave behind the crappy bus service and get on a light rail. For me, the worst part of the trip was the bus ride from my home at 52nd & B'way up Ocean Ave. and through "picturesque" Jersey City. How this will affect the peninsular quality of life in Lower Hudson County, we'll find out. BTW, thanks for the route clarification. NIMBYs again! I wonder if the Appian Way itself had to be routed around some of them.
      - Subject: Re: NJT Light Rail
      - Message Number: 757624
      - Posted by: Lou from Middletown
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: NJT Light Rail posted by David Pirmann on August 27, 1997 at 15:17:43: Thanks for the info,folks! Personally the segment that I would probably use the most is when enentually it is opened to the Vince Lombardi service area,for the park-and-ride use.Again,thanks for all the answers to all these questions!
        
        Subject: Re: NJT Light Rail
        Message Number: 757819
        Posted by: Daniel A. Valles
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:12 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NJT Light Rail posted by Charlie Bonaire on August 28, 1997 at 11:05:22: I agree with Charlie... I am a resident of Bayonne down by 4th Street and Avenue C... Of course, light-rail won't reach me until 2010... However, bringing the train service to Bayonne would be of great help... Heck, it's beat sitting on the Turnpike during the morning rush-hour... BTW, let's hope that Bayonne continues to be the best kept secret of the Metro-area: so close to New York, yet so quiet...
        
        Subject: Re: NJT Light Rail
        Message Number: 757842
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NJT Light Rail posted by Daniel A. Valles on September 08, 1997 at 12:40:33: I would like to see the service extended to Staten Island, eventually. The question is, could the Bayonne Bridge handle the weight, and would the cars be able to climb the step ramp? -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: NJT Light Rail
        Message Number: 757845
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:32 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NJT Light Rail posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 09, 1997 at 16:27:36: I am sure the Bayonne Bridge could handle light rail cars. That bridge is immense (is it still the second longest steel arch span in the world? Was the longest until Sydney Harbor...). If that bridge were a tank, well, it would be built like a tank. --Dave

Thread title: New Java Subway Tour (757603)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:15:41 1997, by David PIrmann

Subject: New Java Subway Tour
Message Number: 757603
Posted by: David PIrmann
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:41 1997

Here's a new link... a multimedia trip down the A Train: Requires Java. [6]Subway Surface --Dave
- Subject: Re: New Java Subway Tour
- Message Number: 757619
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:53 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]New Java Subway Tour posted by David PIrmann on August 27, 1997 at 19:52:51: Hmmm ... so that's what the R-62 looks like running down the A-line. I don't think I've ever seen that! ;-) Tried it w/o sound. It's cute watching the train move along the map as it goes from one station to another. The interior picture shown while the train is moving is clearly that of an R-62! --Mark

Thread title: NYCsubway.org on the Radio (757604)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:15:42 1997, by subway-buff

Subject: NYCsubway.org on the Radio
Message Number: 757604
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:42 1997

On 8/25/1997 The WCBS Radio (880 AM) program Internet Minute featured Mr. Pirmann's Site in a very glowing manner. The address is : www.internetminute.com For subway haters (as is evident from his news reading) the review is very highly positive and favorable. (Dave- I gave you first chance to do this ! :-)
- Subject: Re: NYCsubway.org on the Radio
- Message Number: 757618
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:53 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]NYCsubway.org on the Radio posted by subway-buff on August 27, 1997 at 19:57:08: Cool! I wonder who nominated it for inclusion on Internet Minute? Anyway, [7]here's the script from the August 25th segment.. --Mark
  - Subject: Re: NYCsubway.org on the Radio
  - Message Number: 757642
  - Posted by: Todd Glickman
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:12 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]NYCsubway.org on the Radio posted by subway-buff on August 27, 1997 at 19:57:08: Gee! I wonder how that got on the radio :-) Todd Glickman Meteorologist WCBS Newsradio-88

Thread title: Philadelphia: Big City, Small Subway System (757611)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:15:47 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Philadelphia: Big City, Small Subway System
Message Number: 757611
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:47 1997

I can't understand why Philadelphia has such a small subway system (not including the subway-surface trolley lines), compared to several other smaller cities. For example, Washington, DC's Metro, which opened only 21 years ago, and Boston. Both cities are much smaller than Philadelphia, but have much larger rapid transit systems. Philadelphia has only 2 main subway lines: The Broad Street (Orange) Line, which runs north-south, and The Market-Frankford (Blue) Subway/Elevated Line, which runs east/ northeast-west. Unlike most other major cities, there are many neighborhoods within Philadelphia that are not served by a subway or elevated line, even though the Philadelphia area does have a large commuter rail system.
- Subject: Re: Philadelphia: Big City, Small Subway System
- Message Number: 757621
- Posted by: Bingo
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:55 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Philadelphia: Big City, Small Subway System posted by Timothy on August 28, 1997 at 04:22:07: Maybe it is not economically sound to have a large subway system. Subways are expensive to maintain and run, ifnot build. A regional rail system might be a better way to spend the governments money which are in effect, your tax dollars. Try checking ridership levels on the current lines to see if i'm right or not. Toronto, which I believe is much smaller than Philly, has two main lines as well, the Bloor-Danforth and the Yonge-University-Spadina. We are building another line on Sheppard avenue which will be completed in 2002.
  - Subject: Re: Philadelphia: Big City, Small Subway System
  - Message Number: 757629
  - Posted by: Bobw
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:01 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Philadelphia: Big City, Small Subway System posted by Bingo on August 28, 1997 at 15:36:03: Like New York, Philadelphia had a grand plan for city-wide rapid transit, but the Depression got in the way. The widespread streetcar system, that remained virtually intact until the mid-50's, handled the demand well and various historical events, such as the Depression, World War II, and the postwar auto boom got in the way. Even today, you can get to most areas of the city (and it's fairly large, geographically speaking) using one of the two subway lines and a transfer to a surface line. So, that's one strike against any continued rapid transit expansion. The ex-Reading and Pennsy commuter rail systems tapped several of the farther-out portions of the city early on also, thus many commuters find it easier to use these (despite the fairly substantial extra cost) than the transit routes. SEPTA tried to institute a feeder system of sorts with its "Bus Rail" combination fares when it took over the PTC system in '68 but it never really took off. There are occasional rumblings that the regional rail network may become more light-rail or mixed-metro in nature and this may result in a greater use of the bus system as a feeder network. The arrival of John Leary, creator of MetroLink, as SEPTA's new GM has only fueled this fire. The subway system was slated to expand in the 60's when a new freeway was to be built in Northeast Phila with a Broad St subway extension in its median. The residents of the area equated it with crime and defeated both the road and the rail. Various incarnations of the so-called "Northeast Metro" have been proposed ever since, the more extravagant usually combining the Broad St link with an extension of the Market-Frankford el north of Bridge St (its current terminal) in a joint line which meets at an exchange point in the vicinity of Cottman Ave/Roosevelt Mall. Once again a Northeast rapid line is being studied at the present time. The biggest roadblock is financing. SEPTA is greatly ignored by the Pennsylvania government, which generally views the southeastern part of the state, particularly Phila, as a large hole in which the state's $ is constantly being thrown, with no discernable results. While this part of PA's contribution to the state's coffers (1/3 the PA population, 1/2 the taxes sent to Harrisburg, less than 1/5 returned) is often ignored, funding for things like transit just doesn't happen. The net result is that subway expansion can't even be thought about. Thankfully, the need is not that great. The two rapid lines carry over 100K daily riders and are doing the job well, despite the old infrastructure and the aging Budd cars on the El. s
    - Subject: Re: Philadelphia: Big City, Small Subway System
    - Message Number: 757758
    - Posted by: Andrew Byler
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:24 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Philadelphia: Big City, Small Subway System posted by Bobw on August 28, 1997 at 20:35:29: You give a good summary of the situation in Philly. However, you negelct to mention our other transit oddities. 1) The PATCO line - a rebuilding and extension of the Bridge line to Camden which predates the similar lines in Washington, San Francisco, etc. 2) The Norristown Line, which funcitons as a Metro line of sorts but does not enter the city (transfer at 69th St. to the Market-Frankford) 3) The only suburban street car lines left in the country - the Media and Sharon Hill trolleys. Also, to make things more confusing, each system is incompatible with the others. The Broad St. line is a standard guage subway with overrunning thrid rail built to railroad clearances for eight car trains. The PATCO line is similarly built, but has different fare and signalling systems, as well as restrictions to center platforms only. The Market-Frankford is Pennsylvania broad guage (5' 2 1/4"), underrunning third rail, but otherwise a standard subway line for six car trains of short IRT/CTA size. The Norristown line is standard guage rapid transit built for two to three car trains. The Media and Sharon Hill lines are surface trolley routes at PA broad guage using simple catenary with dead end spurs requiring double ended cars. The Subway Surface routes (10, 11, 13, 34, 36) are surface trolley routes using simple catenary and single ended cars. Thus, it is not practical to connect any one system to any other. Extensions are frequently proposed, and several have been acted upon some time ago. The Broad St. line was extended to Pattison Ave. in 1972, and the PATCO line was opened in 1969. The Northeast extension is the only practical one which makes any sense right now, but I don't expect to see any action within the next 20 years on this (this is Philly's 2nd Ave subway - everyone knows we need it, but the money just never seems to come up). Although an extension to Germantown, Mt. Airy and Chesnut Hill might seem to make sense, given the 70,000 plus people who currently use the slow bus lines and the two train lines through there, the spread of these neighborhoods does not lead one to easily pick a route beneficial to all (neither Germantown, Green St., Stenton Ave., or either rail line really goes near enough to everyone currently served). The only other sensible idea would be a line up 29th St. to Roxborough, but I doubt we'll see this any time soon. This would complement the Frankford line in northern Philly, and relieve the saturation of 29th and 33rd St. with buses. As to Philly's proposed system, the following were proposed, but never acted upon: 1) A route to the Northeast in the middle of Roosevelt Boulevard (Broad St. branch line). 2) An extension of the Market-Frankford line up Frankford Ave. 3) A route out Passyunk Ave. from near Snyder Ave. (Broad St. branch line) 4) A route out Woodland Ave from the Locust St. subway (now the PATCO line) 5) A center city loop from Locust using Arch St. (some holes in the ground on this one, like 2nd Ave.). 6) A line out Lancaster Ave. (Market Frankford spur) 7) A line up Germantown Ave. (Market Frankford spur from Front St.) 8) A line out the Ben Franklin Parkway, 29th St., and Henry Ave. to Roxborough (Broad St. spur - the reason for the odd angle of the tracks at City Hall besides the underpining of the tower) 9) A line up Broad St. from Olney to Cheltenham and beyond (see the flying junction there). Andy Byler
      - Subject: Re: Philadelphia: Big City, Small Subway System
      - Message Number: 757807
      - Posted by: Bobw
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:02 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Philadelphia: Big City, Small Subway System posted by Andrew Byler on September 04, 1997 at 22:18:11: I was keeping my comments concise - that's why I didn't get into the detail that you did. The PATCO cars aren't "restricted" to center platforms. The operator/ motorman/attendant (whatever you want to call him/her) is situated on the left side, unlike many other rapid lines, since all the platforms are island type and his/her primary function, other than watching the computer instructions, is to open and close the doors. Often, in everyday operation, the cars need to use the offside doors. This could happen at either terminal as well as at the Woodcrest center track, the Ferry Avenue center track (although it is not used as much as it has been in the past, especially with Woodcrest being available), and at 12th/13th Streets. In midday hours, many trains are stored on the inbound track west of the crossover between 9th/10th Streets and 12th/13th Streets stations, which means inbound trains must cross over to the outbound track for their last two stops and use the offside doors. Mirrors are placed at these locations to aid operators. Also, in the grand plans for rapid transit, some facilities were built in the city in anticipation of train operation. Two short sections of the Arch Street subway exist, and the Henry Avenue bridge over Wissahickon Creek and Lincoln Drive (the big arch bridge) has a second deck below the roadway waiting for the Roxborough subway to be built. Other significant ones are the large underground trolley terminal at the Ben Franklin Bridge plaza (visible from PATCO trains) and the subway station that existed under the parking garage at the former Sears store on Roosevelt Boulevard, now gone.
        
        Subject: Re: Philadelphia: Big City, Small Subway System
        Message Number: 757814
        Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Philadelphia: Big City, Small Subway System posted by Bobw on September 07, 1997 at 18:05:03: Congrats to Andrew for calling the Norristown Line what it is, and not a true interurban as many people do! South Shore is the last true Interurban! RE: The Media and Sharon Hill Lines These are certainly the last old time suburban lines. But more recently, suburban light rail (trolley) has made something of a comeback. Boston's Riverside Line certainly qualifies, as does the line from San Diego to San Ysidro. Some of the other recent systems, with which I am not familiar, may also qualify. And let us not forget to "Bang the Drum" for reinstatement of the three mothballed lines in Philadelphia, 15 Girard, 23 Germantown and 56 Erie, which are fine examples of what urban light rail really is! Gerry
        
        Subject: Re: Philadelphia: Big City, Small Subway System
        Message Number: 757852
        Posted by: Andrew Byler
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Philadelphia: Big City, Small Subway System posted by Gerry O'Regan on September 08, 1997 at 09:31:17: Gerry, Re: Philadelphia and Western vs. the South Shore Although both are the descendants of interurban lines, and the last remaining original facilities in this country of such lines, neither is really one any more. My P&W is now little more than an overglorified metro, while your South Shore would pass for any electric commuter line this side of the continent (it especially resembles the Montreal lines). If we are oging to get into nitpicking, however, I'll stick to the P&W as being closer to the original product - the only change since construction is new rolling stock. The South Shore has bougth standard commuter rail cars, rerouted its line out around some cities (Gary, and S. Bend), and dropped its electric freight service, and functions, for all intents and purposes, as a third branch of the Metra Electric line. Anyway, the last true electric interurban (whetehr its registered or not) is the Iowa Terminal. It is, however, freight only. Andy Byler

Thread title: Warning: The CTA Visitor's pass (757614)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:15:50 1997, by Bingo

Subject: Warning: The CTA Visitor's pass
Message Number: 757614
Posted by: Bingo
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:50 1997

While in Chicago for the past few days, I decided to purchase this 24-hour unlimited ride Visitor's pass that the CTA has out of their way to advertise. To my demise, I did not find it at the hotel I was staying at. They were to receive some Monday, halfway into my vacation. I paid for a transitcard, and went out to several hotels, all of which bullshitted me out the door. "Find it a currency exchanges, Dominick's, this hotel that hotel" I finally found a hotel selling them by sheer luck. I hate the CTA for many reasons, but this incident takes the cake. The CTA does not have good communication with the retailers of this card, nor do they have good control over the way they dispense these fares. I wasn't able to buy the card at ANY of the TRANSIT COLLECTOR BOOTHS in the stations, which made things even more inconvenient and frustrating as a traveller in the city. The card should be made available to all members of the public and be sold by the automatic vending machines located in all of the stations. Furthermore, it should be also integrated as a weekend pass, with families in Chicago being able to use it to get to museums, ballgames, etc. This only for tourists deal is bullshit, and I think that the CTA knows it, they just don't want to pay for retrofits for their brand new transitcard machines. I don't like the crappy new Budd cars either. The older ones are nice.
- Subject: Re: Warning: The CTA Visitor's pass
- Message Number: 757616
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:51 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Warning: The CTA Visitor's pass posted by Bingo on August 28, 1997 at 13:23:49: Sounds like pretty crappy PR to me. San Francisco Muni used to have a weekend pass which could only be purchased from a cable car conductor, but this was well known, and my family and I made use of it on several visits in the seventies. The BART tourist pass was another story. It was a ripoff, since you could ride all day for 35 cents at that time as long as you got off where you got on, which is what tourists tend to do anyhow. The pass was perhaps $1.50, and expired after three hours. Caveat Emptor, as usual!
  - Subject: Re: Warning: The CTA Visitor's pass
  - Message Number: 757617
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:52 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Warning: The CTA Visitor's pass posted by Gary Jacobi on August 28, 1997 at 13:36:24: SF MUNI still has the passes. (well, as of July 1996). You could buy them in 1, 3, and 7 day increments. The cable car conductors, ticket booths at the ends of the cable car runs, and local vendors sold them. They were good on cable cars, muni bus, muni metro, and the F line streetcars. IIRC, a 7 day pass was $15. --Dave
    - Subject: Re: Warning: The CTA Visitor's pass
    - Message Number: 757628
    - Posted by: Bobw
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:00 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Warning: The CTA Visitor's pass posted by David Pirmann on August 28, 1997 at 14:00:39: I had a similar situation on a visit to Boston in '93. MBTA had a multi-day pass available which I tried to buy (the pass had a scratch-off type of numbering and the number of days scratched off was the value of the pass). I had to speak with three different operators at Riverside terminal before I found one who knew what it was. Even downtown, station cashiers would need to take it, inspect it closely, ask me about it (they didn't know!), etc. Not a good system. Here in Philadelphia SEPTA sells a Day Pass but it is not well publicized and I had similar experiences the few times I purchased one.
      - Subject: Re: Warning: The CTA Visitor's pass
      - Message Number: 757633
      - Posted by: Joe M
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Warning: The CTA Visitor's pass posted by Bobw on August 28, 1997 at 20:18:20: I have used the visitors day pass in Boston. Most operators had to look it over but let you ride. The Muni 3 day passes were a good deal I think the day pass was less than two cable car rides (Cable car ride is more expensive than the subway, F-line or buses too) Toronto's day pass is easy as is the Memphis trolley pass but I think that is only good on the streetcar. The METRA weekend pass is a good deal for getting into the City on the trains in Chicago. I think it's $5.50 or something like that bor Sat and Sunday and up to two kids can ride free with an adult. I will have to try and get a visitors pass in Chicago. I will call the RTA tommorow and ask about it.
        
        Subject: Re: Warning: The CTA Visitor's pass
        Message Number: 757638
        Posted by: Dave
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Warning: The CTA Visitor's pass posted by Bingo on August 28, 1997 at 13:23:49: > Bingo, Sorry to hear about your "demise." Where will the funeral arrangements be held? . St. Louis, MO has a simple day pass sold through the tocket vending machines. Good for the day they are sold, it offers unlimited transit in both directions along the system. Another think that's neat about St. Louis' Metrorail is that between the hours of 10:00 a.m. and 2:00 p.m., there is free travel between the stations in the Central Business District.
        
        Subject: Re: Warning: The CTA Visitor's pass
        Message Number: 757741
        Posted by: Bingo
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:10 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Warning: The CTA Visitor's pass posted by Joe M on August 28, 1997 at 21:23:57: Pardon moi, but I think you are misinformed. The $6.50 Day Pass is good for unlimited rides all day for one person on weekdays and 2 adults and 4 children on weekends.
        
        Subject: Re: Warning: The CTA Visitor's pass
        Message Number: 757744
        Posted by: Bingo
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:13 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Warning: The CTA Visitor's pass posted by Dave on August 29, 1997 at 10:35:46: Nice sarcasm. Je suis tellement amuse.

Thread title: Noise on the CTA! (757625)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:15:58 1997, by B Wolk

Subject: Noise on the CTA!
Message Number: 757625
Posted by: B Wolk
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:15:58 1997

I was in Chicago last weekend. It was my first time on a subway in a different city other than Toronto. A few comments/questions: - Why are the trains so damn noisy and shaky. I found myself constantly being slammed back and forth and when the train entered a tunnel, I thought my eardrums were going to burst! I couldn't even hear myself scream!! It was like someone turned on a 1600 watt hairdryer to maximum power and blew it directly into my ear!!! - Why do some trains not allow eating? - What does a "green over red" signal mean? - On the BLUE LINE, between CHICAGO and CLARK, is there an abandoned station? - There is a really long station, consisting of WASHINGTON, MONROE, and JACKSON. It looks pretty damn wicked! - The El is extremely old, but it's pretty cool and Chicago wouldn't be the same without it. - O'Hare station looks wicked with its glass block and high ceiling. When was this station built? - It's WAY to hard to get a visitor's pass in Chicago. Why not call it a "day pass" like in Toronto and make it available to all? - I found the trains really short in length and narrow compared to the ones in Toronto. In fact, a two-car CTA train is about equal in length to one TTC car! - The CTA bus system in Chicago is good. I found the buses came very frequently, the drivers were very helpful and friendly, the buses are very clean despite the vandalism, and the digital fare boxes are a nice touch.
- Subject: Re: Noise on the CTA!
- Message Number: 757641
- Posted by: Bj from Chicago
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:11 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Noise on the CTA! posted by B Wolk on August 28, 1997 at 19:16:46: Hey, all the CTA Trains run two car routes on the week-ends and are very shaky. I think it is cool to look at the other car in front of you and see how much it is shaking. It is kinda annoying. One the weekdays 8 and 6 car trains operate and the ride isn't nearly so rumbly. Some of the trains expecially on the Blue Line are very old. I usually experience on train passing by on the week-end that is very noisy. The noise isn't that noticable on the inside. I never experienced noise like you said, and I ride regularly. Acually I shouldn't lie, I did experience it once when it was raining and we were Elevated. There is no eating, drinking, or littering allowed on the CTA. IF you rode the train all the way to Ohare from downtown, you should have heard the rules On every train run several times, they announce the rules and the train run number. The Grand Station on the Blue Line is the only one abbandoned on the way to Ohare. ( Between Clark/Lake and Chicago) The Ohare station was just built a few years ago. It was desinged by an architect, but I forget his name. I think it was built in the late eighties, but could be wrong. The three stations under Dearborn are all connected, except for stairways and escalators that seperated them. It is pretty cool, one of my favorite things, becasue it really never gets dark outside the train on that part, even though you are in the subway. my favorite part of the CTA is the El. I have lived here all my life and will continue to ride it despite some of the trains being old and some very loud. It is the best way to get around, especially during rush hour. If you ever visit again during weekday rush hours, ride the Evanston Express from the Loop. Big express portion between Belmont and Howard and you are Elevated. Not all of the system is loud. Ride one of the new Orange Line trains to Midway Airport. Every train on that route is new. Some new ones are also on the Ravenswood Line. The Red Line even on Sundays operates 4 car trains which usually aren't that loud. Only during the middle of the night do they switch to 2 car trains. And with Elevateds, lots of other cities have them. NYC has lots, just not in the downtown area. Ask these guys on the board and they will tell you all of them. please respond if you got this and if it all makes sense or if some is confusing!
  - Subject: Re: Noise on the CTA!
  - Message Number: 757644
  - Posted by: Bryan LLLLLLLLAYNe
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:14 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Noise on the CTA! posted by Bj from Chicago on August 29, 1997 at 16:45:31: I think a German architect by the name of Helmut Jahn designed the O'Hare Station.
    - Subject: Re: Noise on the CTA!
    - Message Number: 757711
    - Posted by: Philip Dominguez
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:06 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Noise on the CTA! posted by Bj from Chicago on August 29, 1997 at 16:45:31: CTA trains have great Accl. power. The Trains frequently pas pass 50 mph. on most lines. Also the CTA trains run on cab signals. The motor- man must stop within a certain time limit or else the brakes will go off. Will explain later. -Phil
      - Subject: Re: Noise on the CTA!
      - Message Number: 757742
      - Posted by: Bingo
      - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Noise on the CTA! posted by B Wolk on August 28, 1997 at 19:16:46: It's those newer Budd cars that you speak of. The older silver boxes run adequately (and that's pushing it. Those cars come nowhere close to any I've been on in New York, England or Japan)

Thread title: NYCT Bus in Illinois (757631)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:16:03 1997, by Bobw

Subject: NYCT Bus in Illinois
Message Number: 757631
Posted by: Bobw
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:03 1997

I was driving east on I-70 in eastern Illinois yesterday (8/27) when I noticed a flatbed truck hauling NYCT 8397 westward. Any clues? Did the truck driver get confused on his delivery (going west instead of east)? A return to Roswell NM? Or does NYCT have a new terminus for one of the Manhattan crosstown routes - at $1.50, a real bargain, but bring a lunch!?
- Subject: Re: NYCT Bus in Illinois
- Message Number: 757632
- Posted by: Zack
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:04 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]NYCT Bus in Illinois posted by Bobw on August 28, 1997 at 20:56:54: was it an RTS if so it coulduve had some damage needing it to be returned for repairs-- or is could be heading for a (ugh) scrap yard :(
  - Subject: Re: NYCT Bus in Illinois
  - Message Number: 757640
  - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:10 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]NYCT Bus in Illinois posted by Bobw on August 28, 1997 at 20:56:54: NYCTA #8397 is a 1990 TMC RTS-06 model. I believe that #8397 was the methanol powered bus at NYCTA. I think it was the only one powered by methanol in the TA fleet.
    - Subject: Re: NYCT Bus in Illinois
    - Message Number: 757662
    - Posted by: trolleybus
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:28 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: NYCT Bus in Illinois posted by Zack on August 28, 1997 at 21:12:55: nyct contracts with midwest bus in chicago i believe. it was probably heading there.they are rebuilding old buses and renumbering them 7500 series.
      - Subject: Re: NYCT Bus in Illinois
      - Message Number: 757663
      - Posted by: Bobw
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:28 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYCT Bus in Illinois posted by trolleybus on August 31, 1997 at 17:49:55: I don't think the bus was going to Chicago. I saw it on I-70 in eastern Illinois. It was closer to St Louis than to Chicago and was way out of its way if it were going to Chicago. Then again, anything is possible... As a fairly new RTS, though, it would seem improbable that it would be on its way to be rebuilt. There was no visible damage that would warrant a rebuilding. In a similar vein, an outfit called ABC has had numerous low-numbered NYCT RTS's in its yard (on US 30, Admiral Wilson Blvd, just west of the old Airport Circle in Pennsauken) since last spring. I think it's a dealer of used buses, given the other buses I've seen in this yard from time to time. Anyone know for sure?
        
        Subject: Re: NYCT Bus in Illinois
        Message Number: 757776
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYCT Bus in Illinois posted by Zack on August 28, 1997 at 21:12:55: The bus was an 8300series RTS, they were built in 1990, too early for overhaul or scrapping, unless it was badly damaged. But NYCT does most of that work in-house, and some engine work is done at Detroit Diesel/Allison in Newark.
        
        Subject: Re: NYCT Bus in Illinois
        Message Number: 757795
        Posted by: Zack
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYCT Bus in Illinois posted by Hank Eisenstein on September 05, 1997 at 17:03:35: mabye the NYCT leased the bus out?
        
        Subject: Re: NYCT Bus in Illinois
        Message Number: 757798
        Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:55 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYCT Bus in Illinois posted by Zack on September 06, 1997 at 19:50:04: Doubt it. They are in the process of ordering 250 new buses...and as far as I know, the TA has never been a leasor on a bus, always a leasee. Speaking of lease, who is Lease a Catera? :> -Hank
        
        Subject: Re: NYCT Bus in Illinois
        Message Number: 757801
        Posted by: Charles
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]NYCT Bus in Illinois posted by Bobw on August 28, 1997 at 20:56:54: 8397 is being converted back to diesel power from methane. I believe the bus is due back soon. thats why it is out of NY.

Thread title: Re: A subway car on the interstate (was NYCT Bus in Illinois) (757639)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:16:09 1997, by Mark Greenwald

Subject: Re: A subway car on the interstate (was NYCT Bus in Illinois)
Message Number: 757639
Posted by: Mark Greenwald
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:09 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: NYCT Bus in Illinois posted by Zack on August 28, 1997 at 21:12:55: I know what you mean. In 1983, I was going to college at Frostburg State University which is located in the mountains of extreme Western Maryland, when, much to my surprise, as I pulled into a Pizza Hut parking lot off of what is now I-68, I saw a Washington Metro car on a flatbed. I found the driver and I asked him what was going on, he said he was on his way to DC and that this was a brand new car (Rohr) that was on its way from Pittsburgh where the breaking assembly's were installed. People from all around school who knew my love of subways were asking me if I saw it--I'm glad I could say I did. I came across the same situation about 6 mos. later when I found a ne Metro car on a flatbed along the shoulder of I-70 near Frederick, MD just outside a truck stop. I stopped, found and asked the driver what was going on.....same story. Just to let you know, Frostburg is about 2 1/2 hrs. west of DC & Frederick is about 20 mins north of the current Shady Grove station on the Red Line.
- Subject: Re: A subway car on the interstate (was NYCT Bus in Illinois)
- Message Number: 757783
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:43 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: A subway car on the interstate (was NYCT Bus in Illinois) posted by Mark Greenwald on August 29, 1997 at 12:21:48: The sight of a subway car on the back of a truck was quite common in the Hornell, NY area throughout the mid to late 80s and early 90s. Approximately 25% of all NYCT cars which were overhauled at the Morrison Knudsen plant in Hornell were trucked to the plant while 75% went on the back of flatcars. During my many visits to the plant, I also saw the 'raw' carbodies for the Norristown cars as well as a BART car (which was being reverse engineered) on flatbed trucks.

Thread title: Status on SIR's North Shore line? (757646)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:16:15 1997, by Michael Adler via SEARS WebTV demo ;-)

Subject: Status on SIR's North Shore line?
Message Number: 757646
Posted by: Michael Adler via SEARS WebTV demo ;-)
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:15 1997

Does anyone know the status on Staten Island Railway's North Shore line? Thanks, Michael Adler Lakewood, ColorFUL Colorado P.S. I'm sending this message from WebTV demo at SEARS while my wife shops
- Subject: Re: Status on SIR's North Shore line?
- Message Number: 757727
- Posted by: Dan
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:18 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Status on SIR's North Shore line? posted by Michael Adler via SEARS WebTV demo ;-) on August 30, 1997 at 21:32:13: Reconstruction has begun at the western end near South Avenue. The Bridge over the Arthur Kill is also being renovated.

Thread title: disused tenements (757648)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:16:17 1997, by Marty Lamarre

Subject: disused tenements
Message Number: 757648
Posted by: Marty Lamarre
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:17 1997

How dangerous is it entering disused tenements or subway stations in NYC
- Subject: Re: disused tenements
- Message Number: 757649
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:17 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]disused tenements posted by Marty Lamarre on August 30, 1997 at 23:09:05: >How dangerous is it entering disused tenements or subway stations in >NYC? Extremely
  - Subject: Re: disused tenements
  - Message Number: 757730
  - Posted by: Charlie Bonaire
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:20 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: disused tenements posted by Peter Rosa on August 30, 1997 at 23:31:18: I agree. But out of curiosity, are you scouting for locations or just a thrillseeker?

Thread title: Washington Subway Car in Harrison (was NYCT bus in Illinois) (757650)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:16:18 1997, by John

Subject: Washington Subway Car in Harrison (was NYCT bus in Illinois)
Message Number: 757650
Posted by: John
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:18 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: A subway car on the interstate (was NYCT Bus in Illinois) posted by Mark Greenwald on August 29, 1997 at 12:21:48: This reminds me of seeing a subway car from the Washington, DC subway on a flatbed truck near the PATH station in Harrison, NJ. I forgot about that until I read this. What was the story with that? Was PATH examining that car for ideas about a future car order?
- Subject: Re: Washington Subway Car in Harrison (was NYCT bus in Illinois)
- Message Number: 757655
- Posted by: Mark Greenwald
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:22 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Washington Subway Car in Harrison (was NYCT bus in Illinois) posted by John on August 31, 1997 at 06:34:52: I couldn't even begin to tell you how a DC Metro car ended up in NJ--by the way, what exit--LOL--(sorry). I do know that initially, all the Breda cars came in either throught the Port of Baltimore or New Orleans, (surprise me). They virtually came unassembled from Italy, than were virtually assembled in Indiana. Certain things, like the previously mentioned braking systems installed in Pittsburgh, were installed in other locals. Maybe one of them was in NJ-----Maybe today I'll learn something new.
  - Subject: Re: Washington Subway Car in Harrison (was NYCT bus in Illinois)
  - Message Number: 757660
  - Posted by: Fitz
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:26 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Washington Subway Car in Harrison (was NYCT bus in Illinois) posted by Mark Greenwald on August 31, 1997 at 13:12:31: The Breda contract included rehab of some of the original cars. This work was done in a portion of the old factories that are located near the PATH Harrison station. Cars were moved to and from this location by flatbed truck. Site appears to be inactive at present.
    - Subject: Re: Washington Subway Car in Harrison (was NYCT bus in Illinois)
    - Message Number: 757661
    - Posted by: Mark Greenwald
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:27 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Washington Subway Car in Harrison (was NYCT bus in Illinois) posted by Fitz on August 31, 1997 at 15:03:15: Thanks Fitz-----you're talking about the Rohr cars right, because, the original cars in the Metro system weren't Breda---they didn't show up until the debut of the Yellow Line in 1981.

Thread title: Too fast - No stop (757653)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:16:21 1997, by John

Subject: Too fast - No stop
Message Number: 757653
Posted by: John
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:21 1997

Can a train operator be suspended for missing a station? Yesterday, I was on a Metro-North train coming back from Bridgeport, and the motorman accidentaly missed the platform at the Darien station (not surprising, since he was also going so damn fast - I have a feeling the station was much closer than he thought and realized too late that he had to start brakeing). He had to back the train up to meet the platform again. I'm sure this will count against the train operator, but what exactly will happen?
- Subject: Re: Too fast - No stop
- Message Number: 757656
- Posted by: Mark Greenwald
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:23 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Too fast - No stop posted by John on August 31, 1997 at 07:24:18: Maybe, possibly, an operator with not enough experience on that particular route? I do know that that was ONE of the contributing factors to the infamouse Malbone street wreck. Obviously, other factors contributed (like the strike) to it, but, I do remember reading about how the motorman overshot station platforms on the present day Franklin shuttle. In a related note, on other systems, like the DC Metro, stations are often skipped when a train is either late, overloaded, or in often times, trying to clear out the downtown area after a major event (Like the 4th of July, Inaugural festivities, Redskins games-yeah!!, etc) The stations that are skipped are usually the less used ones in order to get patrons to the transfer stations such as Metro Center or L'enfent Plaza.
  - Subject: Re: Too fast - No stop
  - Message Number: 757657
  - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:24 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Too fast - No stop posted by Mark Greenwald on August 31, 1997 at 13:20:41: Hmmm....I guess he COULD get into a bit of trouble - but are you sure it was a stop on that train (stupid question, I know) also - I know SEPTIC trains sfometimes do that on the weekend (geez - this font sucks...)
    - Subject: Re: Too fast - No stop
    - Message Number: 757664
    - Posted by: ~airplane
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:29 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Too fast - No stop posted by Philip Nasadowski on August 31, 1997 at 14:09:29: I was once on a Hudson Line train when the motorman missed the platform at the Cortlandt station and had to back up. I'm not sure, but I think there were children near the motorman distracting him.
      - Subject: Re: Too fast - No stop
      - Message Number: 757666
      - Posted by: John Mara
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Too fast - No stop posted by ~airplane on August 31, 1997 at 19:39:34: I was on an F train a couple of years ago which overshot Ditmas Ave station. We didn't back up. We just skipped the stop. The conductor could have opened the back half of the train which was in the station, but he didn't. I don't know what the rules are. Skipping the stop would seem to be the safest way to go.
        
        Subject: Re: Too fast - No stop
        Message Number: 757668
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:32 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Too fast - No stop posted by John Mara on September 01, 1997 at 12:10:55: Actually, backing up isn't supposed to happen (i think) back in the 70's (?) there was a real bad accident in chicago where an IC commuter train overshot, backedup, and train behind it rearended the train... Apparently, when the train overshot, it the close following second train (express???) got some sort of proceed indication (instead of the red it should have gotten), meanwhile thr first train was reversing, and you can figure out the rest... Of course, LOTS of stuff goes on on trains that shouldn't. I remember reading a story that when the LIRR m-1s first came online, sometimes the first catr's controller would fail, meaning the engineer would have to go to a rear car and operat the train from there (with a conductor in the fiirst car buzzing him the signals / etc). Apperently the BLE didn't like this and it became an issue with the MTA. I'll see if I can dig up the NYT stories on these two once the library here opens..
        
        Subject: Re: Too fast - No stop
        Message Number: 757670
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:34 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Too fast - No stop posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 01, 1997 at 17:00:23: I, too was on a Hudson Line N/B train that overshot the Cold Spring station...Motorman backed up the train...this was not a one shot occurance. Happened about 2 other times.
        
        Subject: Re: Too fast - No stop
        Message Number: 757690
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:50 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Too fast - No stop posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 01, 1997 at 17:00:23: I experienced a number of overshoots in the sixties, and the motorman always backed up so that all doors could be safely opened. I always felt that this was done in spite of what the rules might have been, since in those days some disgruntled passenger would have to complain in order to cause the operator to get into trouble, and as long as nobody missed their stop, there was not likely to be a caller.
        
        Subject: Re: Too fast - No stop
        Message Number: 757692
        Posted by: Lou from Middletown
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Too fast - No stop posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 01, 1997 at 17:00:23: Speaking of funny things engineers/motormen-excuseme, train operators do or have done- last week I was riding from Mioddletown to Hoboken on the NJT operated service. I happened to be in the lead car of the push-pull; I went up to the front of the car to get a drink of water, and happened to see the engineer calmly reading a newspaper!! Okay, it was north of Harriman on a fairly deserted stretch,but still!!
        
        Subject: Re: Too fast - No stop
        Message Number: 757693
        Posted by: Lou from Middletown
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Too fast - No stop posted by Steve on September 01, 1997 at 20:19:59: You gotta admit- it disen't take too much to oveshoot Cold Spring! (sorry)
        
        Subject: Re: Too fast - No stop
        Message Number: 757696
        Posted by: Timothy
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:55 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Too fast - No stop posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 01, 1997 at 17:00:23: Back in the early 80's, the same thing happened to a SEPTA commuter train. It overshot the Narberth train station, which is northwest of Philadelphia. The train backed up, and was rearended by an express commuter train.
        
        Subject: Re: Too fast - No stop
        Message Number: 757699
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Too fast - No stop posted by Lou from Middletown on September 02, 1997 at 14:24:10: Hey, was it a baldheaded guy??? I was on the NEC line when this guy was busy reading the sports section. I'm not sure about this - but I think at one point he might even had blown a Stop, although I thought this line had speed control on it. Anyway, he wasn't looking up much, and had a really annoying full power-no power-full power way of driving. It seems that all of NJT and Septic's MUs are driven this way. They always floor it until the train gets to speed, let it roll until it looses 5 or 10, then floor it again. What gives??
        
        Subject: Re: Too fast - No stop
        Message Number: 757733
        Posted by: Zack
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Too fast - No stop posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 02, 1997 at 17:43:50: it might be a "chopper" controller
        
        Subject: Re: Too fast - No stop
        Message Number: 757752
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Too fast - No stop posted by Zack on September 03, 1997 at 20:06:49: Are you joking?? Because I've been on trains where they treat the controller as a giant on off switch - so badly that you can feel it. I'm not sure what kind of controller is it - though I'm betting switched resistance judging from the big resistors on the roof of these things. I'm pretty sure the Metro North M2s are that way - and they are a hell of a lot smoother than these. While we're on the subject - all of this equipment uses A.C. overhead, but D.C. motors. The conversion AC->DC is normally done with SCRs, but some of Septa's stuff is pretty old (I'd guess 1960's) I think they're the MA1-A cars. Does anyone know if these are solid state too, or are they ignitron??
        
        Subject: Re: Too fast - No stop
        Message Number: 757782
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Too fast - No stop posted by John on August 31, 1997 at 07:24:18: The answer to your question would depend largly on the circumstances which resulted it the station being 'blown'. In addition to 'improper operation' by the Train Operator or Engineer, there could be a braking problem or slippery rails. The bottom line is that if an operator fails to make a station stop, for whatever the reason, he(or she) did not have the train under control. So, in general, except in the case of extremely extraordinary circumstances, the answer to your question is YES and properly so.

Thread title: Subway items for sale (757654)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:16:21 1997, by Matt Kobin

Subject: Subway items for sale
Message Number: 757654
Posted by: Matt Kobin
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:21 1997

Does anyone know of sources for origianl NYC Subway items that are for sale (from actual stations)? Please send me an e-mail. Thanks. kobin@pacbell.net
- Subject: Re: Subway items for sale
- Message Number: 757658
- Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:25 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Subway items for sale posted by Matt Kobin on August 31, 1997 at 11:15:30: Staions??? Who cares about that??? What I want (besides a LOT of those hanger straps in the 7 line cars(ceilling decor for a long narrow hall :) ) is an old drum controller from either an old r - 30 something or an M-1 (Pipe dream). Imagine wireing one up to run a model train set..... :)
  - Subject: Re: Subway items for sale
  - Message Number: 757659
  - Posted by: Mark Greenwald
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:25 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway items for sale posted by Philip Nasadowski on August 31, 1997 at 14:36:05: Or possibly decorate the hallway to look as though you're walking down the center of a car----use graphic photos to depict the seats on side with the windows on the walls--with possibly a scene in the window frame depicting what you'd see from a car on an actual run------could be mind-boggling. Or, make the hallway appear as a station (without the smells of course)---You could be creative & get yourself in the press......hmmmm....
    - Subject: Re: Subway items for sale
    - Message Number: 757688
    - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:48 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Subway items for sale posted by Philip Nasadowski on August 31, 1997 at 14:36:05: There was an article in Model Railroader about fifteen or so years ago that detailed how to duplicate a two handled control stand from a diesel locomotive for model railroad use. It was of mostly wood construction, and looked very convincing. I'm sure the concept could be eadily applied to a single handle controller, whereas purchasing and gutting a real controller is probably not practical.
      - Subject: Re: Subway items for sale
      - Message Number: 757732
      - Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:22 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway items for sale posted by Gary Jacobi on September 02, 1997 at 12:39:04: Actually, gutting the Real Thing (tm) shouldn't be too hard - after all, it is nothing more than a set of switches that switch in unique patterns - one could easily interface it to a microcontroller (i.e. 68HC11) and have that drive you powerpack. If you are somewhat proficient in micros, it's really not that hard of a job to do. The hard part is getting a damm control stand - I'm not sure where the heck you'd get a juked one...
        
        Subject: Re: Subway items for sale
        Message Number: 757751
        Posted by: Joe-M
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Subway items for sale posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 03, 1997 at 19:11:47: Contact NIMCO in New Jersey They salvage bus and rail equipment
        
        Subject: Re: Subway items for sale
        Message Number: 757753
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Subway items for sale posted by Matt Kobin on August 31, 1997 at 11:15:30: NYCT has a web page for there Asset Recovery Unit, selling off old crap. Check out [7]This page. They post new stuff on the 15th and the last day of each month, thereabouts. Right now they have an armored truck for sale and some other crap. Some computer parts, some subway car parts, and more crap... --Dave
        
        Subject: Re: Subway items for sale
        Message Number: 757757
        Posted by: Philip Nasadowski
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Subway items for sale posted by Joe-M on September 04, 1997 at 19:55:26: Got a number / web page??
        
        Subject: Re: Subway items for sale
        Message Number: 757762
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Subway items for sale posted by Philip Nasadowski on September 04, 1997 at 22:11:01: NIMCO Bus Division 254 Dormus Ave Newark NJ 201-589-9265 NIMCO Shredding 2452 Dormus Ave 201-344-2696 They may or may not have what you need I have bought parts from the bus division
        
        Subject: Re: Subway items for sale
        Message Number: 757822
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Subway items for sale posted by Joe M on September 04, 1997 at 23:54:24: I, too, had some success about 10 years ago with NIMCO Bus. Old signs, sign boxes, etc. The guy there was very helpful. If any of you know any new news at this point, I'd love to hear about it. Still looking for NY area destination signs. Thanks.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway items for sale
        Message Number: 757854
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Subway items for sale posted by David Pirmann on September 04, 1997 at 20:15:42: So dave What do you really think about what they have for sale?
        
        Subject: Re: Subway items for sale
        Message Number: 757859
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway items for sale posted by Joe M on September 09, 1997 at 23:28:28: Sorry wasn't I clear? :-) I just meant that there won't be much of interest to the transit memoribilia collector for sale there, until the R26-R36 cars go up for purchase :-) --Dave

Thread title: What's up? (757667)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:16:32 1997, by Keranu

Subject: What's up?
Message Number: 757667
Posted by: Keranu
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:32 1997

Haven't been here for AGES. School exams in the way, happy now, did OK. Whats happening in New York and with love-of-my-life NYC subway, my aunt is begging me to visit again, I hope I can see, I feel so out of touch. This page is still cool as ever, I can see. Bring back the J/Z Express!! (If they haven't already.)

Thread title: Change in Queens Blvd Evening/Owl Service (757669)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:16:33 1997, by subway-buff

Subject: Change in Queens Blvd Evening/Owl Service
Message Number: 757669
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:33 1997

Effective 08/30/1997 the MTA is making the following changes due to track work due to the 63 st connection: F-to 179 at all times. Runs local in Queens 9pm-5:30AM. E- Local in Queens 9pm-5:30AM. G-Ends at Court Square (no more 179 G service. It will run to 71-Continental during Rush hours,. mid-day and until 9pm. All otherr times including weekends it is Court Square. Roosevelt Island and Queens Bridge- New 6 av S train making all 6av local stops to Queensbridge. SOURCE: MTA Poster in E,F,G stations and A,E,F trains.
- Subject: Re: Change in Queens Blvd Evening/Owl Service
- Message Number: 757671
- Posted by: Bryan Layne
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:35 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Change in Queens Blvd Evening/Owl Service posted by subway-buff on September 01, 1997 at 19:19:55: 6th avenue S train?
  - Subject: Re: Change in Queens Blvd Evening/Owl Service
  - Message Number: 757675
  - Posted by: John
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:38 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Change in Queens Blvd Evening/Owl Service posted by Bryan Layne on September 01, 1997 at 22:28:45: It won't be the first time. There was a temporary one back in 1987 when major trackwork on the Manhattan Bridge was underway, and again in 1995 when the same thing took place.
    - Subject: Re: Change in Queens Blvd Evening/Owl Service
    - Message Number: 757703
    - Posted by: subway-buff
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:00 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Change in Queens Blvd Evening/Owl Service posted by Bryan Layne on September 01, 1997 at 22:28:45: Please check out the official MTA Site- navigate the NYC Transit. Select Subway Information and then select service changes/ Select F or G and you;ll see about the 6 av Shuttle train-all local stops to 2nd ave (this has 4 tracks but I do not know if they'll use the "express" tracks at 2nd ave or if the shuttle will use the "local" tracks. I do not ride that late at night!

Thread title: R110A PICS (757672)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:16:35 1997, by Nick

Subject: R110A PICS
Message Number: 757672
Posted by: Nick
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:35 1997

I was wondering if any pics of the R110A are going to be added soon. I noticed that you have the cover of the Greller book scanned on here-maybe he'll let you scan more for a good price or for free...
- Subject: Re: R110A PICS
- Message Number: 757676
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:38 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]R110A PICS posted by Nick on September 01, 1997 at 22:35:38: We do *not* have the cover of the Greller book ("New York City Subway Cars"). Which picture did you think was the same as the one on his book? We have some photos that have appeared in his book and elsewhere but they have been acquired from other sources - slide collectors and the like. I don't have a source for any R110A pictures. In fact I've never even seen it in service. If anyone has some pictures to contribute, contact me.
  - Subject: Re: R110A PICS
  - Message Number: 757686
  - Posted by: Nick
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:46 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: R110A PICS posted by David Pirmann on September 02, 1997 at 00:42:46: I thought the picture of the #1 trains in the yard was on the cover of the greller book-which is scanned on here. I believe the R110A is still being run on the #2, but only during rush hours I think. Maybe someone could contact the Transit authority about when the R110A goes by a station close to you, and then you can get pics. I'd do it if I lived in NYC!
    - Subject: Re: R110A PICS
    - Message Number: 757708
    - Posted by: David Pirmann
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:04 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: R110A PICS posted by Nick on September 02, 1997 at 12:26:17: The #2 doesn't come anywhere near where I live in Jersey City :-) And the cover of the Greller book has #1 trains in the shop, not in a yard. The picture of the #1 trains lined up in the 240th St yard I took myself. --Dave

Thread title: Forest Hills Renovation (757673)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:16:36 1997, by Nick

Subject: Forest Hills Renovation
Message Number: 757673
Posted by: Nick
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:36 1997

I was wondering if The Forest Hills/71st St-Continental Avenue station is due for renovation soon. It's not in as bad condition as some of the other stations, but it gets heavy use (G and R begin/terminate there, and E and F make an express stop there), and could use a modernazation.

Thread title: Trains on Bridges (757674)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:16:37 1997, by David L.

Subject: Trains on Bridges
Message Number: 757674
Posted by: David L.
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:37 1997

I never understood why trains travel across the Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges so slowly. Is it because of old signals? Or is it because trains travelling at high speeds over these bridges can damage the bridge? If so, what should be the maximum speed a train should travel over a bridge? To my understanding- 20 mph is the speed limit for trains which use these two bridges.
- Subject: Re: Trains on Bridges
- Message Number: 757680
- Posted by: Zack
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:41 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Trains on Bridges posted by David L. on September 01, 1997 at 23:29:06: i think there Slowey Rebuilding the bridges??
  - Subject: Re: Trains on Bridges
  - Message Number: 757685
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:45 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Trains on Bridges posted by David L. on September 01, 1997 at 23:29:06: It isn't just the downgrades on the bridges. Controlled signalling can be found on the #4 heading downtown between Bleeker and Spring Sts, and on all of the downgrades for the East River tunnels, among others. There isn't any speed restriction (that is, timed signals) on the upgrades - the train's own weight and the weight of the people aboard limit the traction motors to only so much power heading upgrade, and that limits the speed the train can reach. Why the speed limitation? Probably a safety issue, maybe to minimize the chances of rear-end collisions. It takes a lot of braking force to stop a train heading downhill. --Mark
    - Subject: Re: Trains on Bridges
    - Message Number: 757705
    - Posted by: Bobw
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:01 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Trains on Bridges posted by Zack on September 02, 1997 at 01:33:39: The conditions of each of these bridges is definitely a factor in allowable speed. In much the same way, some bridges are posted with weight limits - a 5-ton truck crossing a 4-ton bridge won't result in immediate collapse, but the impact of the moving load will definitely have a detrimental effect on the structure. In the case of the Manhattan, the trains created a "see-saw" effect and twisted it when they crossed. This was worse before the Chrystie connection when the tracks to Centre St got much less use than the Broadway tracks. With both Manhattan and W'burg dating from the turn of the century, and neither in good shape, it's a wonder trains can still be supported on them.
      - Subject: Re: Trains on Bridges
      - Message Number: 757712
      - Posted by: philip nasadowski
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:07 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Trains on Bridges posted by Bobw on September 02, 1997 at 21:39:11: I think it's also pulic outcry (i.e. New York Times, etc) that got the speeds to drop. Right after the rearenbding on the J/Z and M, I read an article in the times that sugessted that speeds should be reduced because of (it's, not mine) these points: 1) Trains of today are heavier (I'm not too sure that is the case) 2) Trains of today because of A) take longer to stop. I don't think number 2 is because of 3. Certainly the current signal system is outdated by a bit, but it has handled greater traffic in the past than it handles now. The article sugessted that speeds should be reduced until the signal system was replaced. I don't think the TA could even begin to afford redoing the signals on the entire system... Of course the writer of the article was also convinced that trains have shifting gears like a car.....
        
        Subject: Re: Trains on Bridges
        Message Number: 757738
        Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Trains on Bridges posted by philip nasadowski on September 02, 1997 at 22:58:11: The modern stainless steel cars in use today are indeed somewhat lighter than the old heavy steel cars of the teens and twentys. Offsetting this and a factor to consider when thinking about bridge maintenance is the axle loadings. A 75 foot car may have the same axle loadings as an older 60' car, but the trucks are further apart, thus the effect on the bridge is different. Speed control going downhill is less concerned with stopping distance than with control. If you were to lose control at speed on the downhill side of the Manhattan Bridge, and hit the emergency brake, the wheels could lock on slippery rail, a total loss of traction, sending a 10 car train flying into the curve at the bottom of the grade with all too predictable results. Thus you slow down before you start downgrade, and maintain reasonable braking effort for the descent. The signal system enforces this with time lights, and trips an offending train before it can get out of control. Reasonable and prudent speeds prevents both accidents and wear and tear on the bridge. BTW - The Manhattan Bridge was designed by the same engineer who designed the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, and suffers from some of the same faults. I've heard that the structure surrounding the tracks stiffens the bridge and may have prevented a similar disaster. The combined stresses of the trains and the twisting forces may be the reason for all of the rebuilding currently taking place, but we at least still have a bridge! Gerry
        
        Subject: Re: Trains on Bridges
        Message Number: 757747
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Trains on Bridges posted by Gerry O'Regan on September 04, 1997 at 09:32:51: Are you sure that the Manhattan and Tacoma Narrows bridges were designed by the same firm? They were built about 30 years apart, and surely the practice of bridge design and engineering had changed a lot in the interim. Hmmm ... more I think about it, if the bridge that collapsed was the *Tacoma* Narrows, we ought to ask Big Don for his opinion :-)

Thread title: NYC Bus Routes (757677)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:16:39 1997, by Steve Lowemthal

Subject: NYC Bus Routes
Message Number: 757677
Posted by: Steve Lowemthal
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:39 1997

I am working on a web page reference guide Please assist me and read this page http://www.angelfire.com/BusRouteComplex Thank you
- Subject: Re: NYC Bus Routes
- Message Number: 757678
- Posted by: Steve Lowenthal
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:40 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]NYC Bus Routes posted by Steve Lowemthal on September 02, 1997 at 00:54:15: correction to page' http://www.angelfire.com/ma/BusRouteComplex thanks
  - Subject: Re: NYC Bus Routes
  - Message Number: 757679
  - Posted by: Steve Lowenthal
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:41 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]NYC Bus Routes posted by Steve Lowemthal on September 02, 1997 at 00:54:15: correction to page' http://www.angelfire.com/ma/BusRouteComplex thanks

Thread title: Manhattan Bridge Question (757681)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:16:42 1997, by RAC93

Subject: Manhattan Bridge Question
Message Number: 757681
Posted by: RAC93
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:42 1997

As I have seen by looking through this awesome web page, The manhatten Bridge originally Connected the Nassau Street Loop on one end and Canal Street on the other. As the Chrystie Street Connection opened, the Canal Street line was connected to the other side and the Nassau Street Loop track was disconnected from the bridge tracks. My question is: Are those tracks visible from a passing train on the Canal Street Line? I believe that they are. I recall years ago in 1989 (when I lived in Brooklyn) that when passing on the Manhattan Bridge that I could see the front of an old train when looking out the windows. I did not know kind of train it was, since it was dark, but looking through the site, it resembled a BMT Standard. Then again, this was almost 10 years ago (I currently live in L.A. and I Am 21 Years old) so I am not 100% sure. I am hoping that maybe a NYCTA employee or a frequent "N" train rider may know better about this since I understand that the track in question is closed due to bridge repair...
- Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Question
- Message Number: 757683
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:44 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Manhattan Bridge Question posted by RAC93 on September 02, 1997 at 04:57:15: I can definitely empathize with the trouble we all have trying to sort out memories from younger years. It took me about fifteen years before I figuerd out that as a child of about five I had seen a LIRR train pop up in the median of Atlantic avenue at Nostrand. The Manhattan bridge situation, when four tracks were in use, was one route on the North side of the bridge, and the other on the South. Each was a two-way pair. If a train was crossing on the other route, it was hard to see. However, if a train in the opposite direction on your route, it was right in your face if you were looking out the front, and what kid wouldn't be! If you are talking about after the bridge and into the tunnel, it gets very complicated.

Thread title: Not Only On Bridges... (Was Re: Trains on Bridges) (757682)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:16:43 1997, by Julio Perez

Subject: Not Only On Bridges... (Was Re: Trains on Bridges)
Message Number: 757682
Posted by: Julio Perez
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:43 1997

In Reply to: [6]Trains on Bridges posted by David L. on September 01, 1997 at 23:29:06: The same thing occurred not only on the Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges, but on the approaches to the 125th Street station on the B'way/7th Avenue A-Division line (1/9) as well. About 20-some years ago, it used to be the case the trains emerging from the tunnels would creep outward at about 10 MPH or so. At a certain point, they would accelerate towards the platform. As they left the platform, they would proceed at about 10 MPH, then accelerate into the tunnels as they would get closer to them. This could be because of the aging of the structure, or because the sine waves of vibrations caused by speeding trains onto the structure would be too great, causing possible structure failure. (I'm _not_ a civil engineer, but I've heard that could be the case in suspension bridges. Even though this is _not_ a suspended structure, it was designed at an era in which slower speed trains were present.) I'm just surprised the MTA has not put converting this station into an undercover one on their project wish list. Not necessarily that Albany has money to throw around, but the original purpose of this structure is a moot point at this day and age: to straighten the line so the old trains would not have the trouble going down and up steep inclines caused by the "valley" @ 125th Street.
- Subject: Re: Not Only On Bridges... (Was Re: Trains on Bridges)
- Message Number: 757684
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:45 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Not Only On Bridges... (Was Re: Trains on Bridges) posted by Julio Perez on September 02, 1997 at 09:09:02: The valley at 125th st is no moot point. It was and is a major geological consideration for any linear structure crossing it. The decision not to go under which was made in 1904 was not in deference to the ability or inability of trains to pull the grade. It was a necessary concession to keep the major terminus at 137th st. from being buried too deep for passengers to climb to the surface unaided. Escalators were not yet developed, and elevators AT A TERMINAL wouls have been a bottleneck. When the A train was built through the same area in the thirties, the decision was made to stay underground at 125th, even though this commited the line to very deep stations through much of Washington Heights. These were local stations, and each have elevators. Only at 168th st is there a volume problem because of the transfer to the #1. I can recall to this day the terrible crush of humanity on that single large elevator in the 60,s during rush hour, because if you didn't get on, you missed at least one train, and for a New Yorker this is unthinkable. I actually ran down (not up!) the stairrs a few times, but I was young and foolish then, and ten or so flights seemed reasonable.
  - Subject: Re: Not Only On Bridges... (Was Re: Trains on Bridges)
  - Message Number: 757756
  - Posted by: Andrew Byler
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:22 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Not Only On Bridges... (Was Re: Trains on Bridges) posted by Julio Perez on September 02, 1997 at 09:09:02: A couple of reasons to limit speed on a bridge are the afformentioned sine-waves and also dynamic impact loading. The sine-wave loading occurs because of the transition from the softer ground to the harder bridge, and causes the bucking motion we are familiar with from a train crossing a bridge. The dynamic impact loading is a generally linear relationship that dramatically increases the static load of a car as speed increases (60 mph is a factor of 1.55). Among the many causes of this are joints, falt wheels, treack alignment, etc. There really isn't any excuse for the 20 mph restriction, however. In Philly, the PATCO line goes 45 mph over the Ben Franklin. I don't think the idea (mentioned several posts down) that it is from the twist of having a train on the bridge are correct. Rush hour traffic will cause the same twist, and trains have always been unevenly loading the bridge. Nor is it simply a matter of weight - bridges are strength designed in a weighted probablistic manner for a worst case scenario an entire bridge full of heavy trucks backed up over the whole length. Most probably, the restriction is from fatigue reductions in bridge strength. This occurs over time from the cyclic loading the bridges undergo. If the fatigue limit is exceeded (as it undoubtedtly has been), the bridge quickly starts to deteriorate much more rapidly than it would have otherwise. This is what suddenly took out the Williamsburgh Bridge out of action several years ago, and led to its current big rehab job. Andy Byler
    - Subject: Re: Not Only On Bridges... (Was Re: Trains on Bridges)
    - Message Number: 757766
    - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:30 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Not Only On Bridges... (Was Re: Trains on Bridges) posted by Andrew Byler on September 04, 1997 at 21:49:23: I agree, except that the twist due to rush hour (one way bias) is not nearly as damaging as the cyclic twisting caused by Train traffic being off center AND cyclic, again, agreeing with your statements about fatigue loading. The twisting phenomenon was first reported on in the press when a photographer setting up on the Manhattan bridge to get a picture of one or the other parallel structures noticed the motion in his viewfinder as a train went by. I think this was in the late fifties.

Thread title: R33 FanTrip or Re: LIRR in need of a Dress Code for conductors (757687)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:16:47 1997, by Mark S Feinman

Subject: R33 FanTrip or Re: LIRR in need of a Dress Code for conductors
Message Number: 757687
Posted by: Mark S Feinman
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:47 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR in need of a Dress Code for conductors posted by Bill Ruiz on August 29, 1997 at 19:31:38: Huh? Netscape has the page topic listed as "R33 FanTrip" yet clicking on it presents someone's post on LIRR dess code from 8/29 ... reloading the page didn't solve the problem. --Mark
- Subject: Re: R33 FanTrip or Re: LIRR in need of a Dress Code for conductors
- Message Number: 757707
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:03 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]R33 FanTrip or Re: LIRR in need of a Dress Code for conductors posted by Mark S Feinman on September 02, 1997 at 12:35:47: Yup, bug. Free software ain't bug free, folks. --Dave
  - Subject: Re: R33 FanTrip or Re: LIRR in need of a Dress Code for conductors
  - Message Number: 757791
  - Posted by: John
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:50 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: R33 FanTrip or Re: LIRR in need of a Dress Code for conductors posted by David Pirmann on September 02, 1997 at 21:55:41: Then what's with this Fantrip?

Thread title: Pitkin Avenue Yard (757689)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:16:49 1997, by aaron

Subject: Pitkin Avenue Yard
Message Number: 757689
Posted by: aaron
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:49 1997

So where is this yard? It is underground? I drove around the area of the Grant Ave station but could not find it. Help!
- Subject: Re: Pitkin Avenue Yard
- Message Number: 757700
- Posted by: Bill
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:58 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Pitkin Avenue Yard posted by aaron on September 02, 1997 at 12:45:24: It's in the area of Linden Blvd & Elderts Lane. The lay up tracks are locateed under an apartment building.
  - Subject: Re: Pitkin Avenue Yard
  - Message Number: 757701
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:58 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Pitkin Avenue Yard posted by aaron on September 02, 1997 at 12:45:24: I can be more specific. North of Linden, South of Sutter, Between Elderts and I believe Grant, but when I rode my bike out there in the 50's, the street was unpaved and unsigned. The yard was built along with the extension to Euclid Ave in the 40's and could only be entered from the West. Grant ave station was added in what became the center leg of the wye trackage. I can hardly believe they have built an apartment building over the tracks! They only do that where real estate is valuable, and New Lots NEVER qualified.
    - Subject: Re: Pitkin Avenue Yard
    - Message Number: 757710
    - Posted by: Peter Rosa
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:05 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Pitkin Avenue Yard posted by Gary Jacobi on September 02, 1997 at 18:58:12: Just a thought about buildings erected over subway/train tracks - in the South Bronx (another decidely non-high-rent district), there's a downright massive apartment building over the Metro-North tracks. I suspect that political pork is a more important factor in these cases than is real estate economics.
      - Subject: Re: Pitkin Avenue Yard
      - Message Number: 757715
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Pitkin Avenue Yard posted by aaron on September 02, 1997 at 12:45:24: Pitkin Yard is located under the Linden Towers Apartment Complex. There is a gate on Linden Blvd which is rarely used and the Main gate is on Sutter Ave.
        
        Subject: Re: Pitkin Avenue Yard
        Message Number: 757728
        Posted by: Kosta Hatzopoulos
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Pitkin Avenue Yard posted by Bill on September 02, 1997 at 18:00:46: Nice Answer, very simple, read other replies
        
        Subject: Re: Pitkin Avenue Yard
        Message Number: 757729
        Posted by: Kosta Hatzopoulos
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Pitkin Avenue Yard posted by Bill on September 02, 1997 at 18:00:46: Nice Answer, very simple, read other replies

Thread title: Concerns regarding the MTA Student Metrocard (757691)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:16:51 1997, by Marcellus G.

Subject: Concerns regarding the MTA Student Metrocard
Message Number: 757691
Posted by: Marcellus G.
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:51 1997

According to the new MTA plan for student metrocards, it is to my understanding that cards will be issued only once every term. I'm concerned because the value of a metrocard for one term (5 months) is worth (according to my calculations) approximately $400. I think that students will basically be carrying an invitation for a mugging. What is the policy for lost or stolen metrocards? Have there been similar farecard programs in any other cities, and if so, how have the results been? Any responses would be appreciated.
- Subject: Re: Concerns regarding the MTA Student Metrocard
- Message Number: 757702
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:59 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Concerns regarding the MTA Student Metrocard posted by Marcellus G. on September 02, 1997 at 13:23:40: The High School fare cards of the fifties were also issued twice a year, but they were controlled in such a way that we never thought them worth stealing. For one thing, they had to be at least 'FLASHED' at the attendant, who allowed you to enter through the exit gate each morning. The cards were only good in the afternoon for one third of the term, and since that was the ride home from school, they often had a guard at the gate who inspected each card and its holder to make sure the information matched. If you do the math, this amounted to a nickle fare during the great 15 cent token era.
  - Subject: Re: Concerns regarding the MTA Student Metrocard
  - Message Number: 757704
  - Posted by: RISKY BUSINESS
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:01 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Concerns regarding the MTA Student Metrocard posted by Marcellus G. on September 02, 1997 at 13:23:40: There will be someone in each school responsible for lost/stolen cards, a lost card will immediately be deactivated and a replacement should be issued within the week. It's not worth the RISK
    - Subject: Re: Concerns regarding the MTA Student Metrocard
    - Message Number: 757773
    - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:36 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Concerns regarding the MTA Student Metrocard posted by Marcellus G. on September 02, 1997 at 13:23:40: the cards are actually worthless. Once lost or stolen, the student reports to the school, and the card is deactivated via it's serial number, and a new card is issued. The is no value stored on the cards. An exception is the 1/2 fare cards, which CAN have the $$ amount put on the card. The cards work only 3 (or 4) trips each day, not including transfers. Otherwise, it works the same as all the other metrocards. The cards are white with neon-green printing for HS students, and will be issued TWICE a year, once for the fall, and again in Spring, because some students do not continue school.

Thread title: Track questions - was Re: Too fast - No stop (757694)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:16:53 1997, by ~airplane

Subject: Track questions - was Re: Too fast - No stop
Message Number: 757694
Posted by: ~airplane
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:53 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Too fast - No stop posted by Lou from Middletown on September 02, 1997 at 14:24:10: Port Jervis Line questions: How far south of the Moodna Viaduct does the right of way become two tracks? I've noticed two tracks at Harriman, but only one track on the trestle. When was the trestle reduced to a single track?
- Subject: Re: Track questions - was Re: Too fast - No stop
- Message Number: 757695
- Posted by: Lou from Middletown
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:54 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Track questions - was Re: Too fast - No stop posted by ~airplane on September 02, 1997 at 15:20:30: Outside of sidings, I believe it really doesn't become two track until Suffern (i.e. NJT territory), This may change with NS coming to town, however. There is going to a lot of noise whem this happens, because Metro-North wants be sure that they will have space for increasing commuter service, wheras NS really wants to make this a Main Line again, or so the scuttlebutt around here is going, so we shall see!
  - Subject: Re: Track questions - was Re: Too fast - No stop
  - Message Number: 757734
  - Posted by: Andrew Huie
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:24 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Track questions - was Re: Too fast - No stop posted by Lou from Middletown on September 02, 1997 at 15:26:46: NS? What's NS and how is it involved with the Main Line/Port Jervis line out of Hoboken?
    - Subject: Re: Track questions - was Re: Too fast - No stop
    - Message Number: 757749
    - Posted by: Loui from Middletown
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:17 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Track questions - was Re: Too fast - No stop posted by Andrew Huie on September 03, 1997 at 23:12:29: NS-Norfolk Southern. They are getting the old Erie Main as part of the Conrail break-up.NJT owns the tracks from Hoboken to Suffern,Conrail owns the tracks north of that (altough NJT does the actual dispatching up to Port Jervis- all under contract with Metro-North, of course![confusing, isn't it???])

Thread title: In debt (757697)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:16:55 1997, by BJ

Subject: In debt
Message Number: 757697
Posted by: BJ
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:16:55 1997

Has the NYCTA ever been in debt or close to it, just wondering. The CTA still is in debt and has had to make alot of cuts like one man train operation and gettting rid of ten bus routes. They still need to do more, got any suggestions?
- Subject: Re: In debt
- Message Number: 757721
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:13 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]In debt posted by BJ on September 02, 1997 at 16:34:54: I think the better question is when have they NOT been in debt. New York City has been bankrupt and/or in fiscal crisis for years. The 1980s was a particularly bad time -- the subway maintenace was at an all time low. Graffiti was rampant, car doors were busted, lights didn't work, a/c didn't work, track fires left and right, and it just kept getting worse. Ridership fell to an all time low. Service was cut back and infrastructure suffered. In the late 80s and 90s, we've seen an upswing as funding become available-- new trains were ordered for the IRT for the first time in 20 years (the R62's starting in 1984, and the recent R142 order which will allow retiring of all of the 1958-1964 cars), also new trains for the IND division (R68) allowed retiring of the last of the non-stainless-steel cars (the R10, R16, R27, R30). Trains are 99% graffiti free, mean distance between train failure is at an all time high (the R62A's I think hit 100,000 miles between failure at one point). Stations are being rehabilitated left and right with some nice results (see the local stations on the #1 - Franklin St. et al). Recently there have been more budget cuts resulting in some late night service cutbacks, less trains during the day, and OPTO on some lines at night. Train cleaners were laid off and are just now being rehired. So as you can see the city is always in a budget swing-- at some points the MTA suffers and sometimes it does better. I doubt anyone will let it get as bad as it did in the early 80s though. --Dave

Thread title: Why can't 75' cars use J, L, M, Z routes? (757706)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:17:02 1997, by Bobw

Subject: Why can't 75' cars use J, L, M, Z routes?
Message Number: 757706
Posted by: Bobw
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:02 1997

Does anyone know the specific restrictions/areas which do not accommodate 75' cars on these lines? I suspect the many, tortuous curves on the L subway are at fault, but where on the others? Is it the subway curve from Delancey to Centre? I was wondering, since the HBO Subway Stories film used an R-68 train signed for the M line. I know it's Hollywood and "poetic license", but it raised a question that I always had. Help?
- Subject: Re: Why can't 75' cars use J, L, M, Z routes?
- Message Number: 757709
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:04 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Why can't 75' cars use J, L, M, Z routes? posted by Bobw on September 02, 1997 at 21:43:30: I believe that the 75' cars physically can fit on the Eastern Division (J/L/M/Z), but aren't used because they would have to go very slowly through some of the turns and on the Williamsburgh Bridge. It's not like running BMT/IND cars on the IRT lines, where they simply wouldn't fit.
  - Subject: Re: Why can't 75' cars use J, L, M, Z routes?
  - Message Number: 757713
  - Posted by: Zack
  - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:07 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Why can't 75' cars use J, L, M, Z routes? posted by Peter Rosa on September 02, 1997 at 22:08:30: Why dont they fix the curves and the bridge to accomidate the 75 foot cars????
    - Subject: Re: Why can't 75' cars use J, L, M, Z routes?
    - Message Number: 757714
    - Posted by: Zack--Correct e-mail :)
    - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:08 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Why can't 75' cars use J, L, M, Z routes? posted by Zack on September 02, 1997 at 23:06:56: Sorry posted wrong E-mail adress correct E-mail adress is mailto:busdud19@mail.idt.net
      - Subject: Re: Why can't 75' cars use J, L, M, Z routes?
      - Message Number: 757717
      - Posted by: Peter Rosa
      - Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:10 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Why can't 75' cars use J, L, M, Z routes? posted by Zack on September 02, 1997 at 23:06:56: >why don't they fix the curves and bridges to accommodate the 75' cars? Doing so would surely be expensive - probably enormously so. There's nothing wrong with having to use shorter cars, especially considering that NYC subway cars aren't fully interchangeable given the IRT dimensions.
        
        Subject: Re: Why can't 75' cars use J, L, M, Z routes?
        Message Number: 757718
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Why can't 75' cars use J, L, M, Z routes? posted by Peter Rosa on September 03, 1997 at 09:38:14: The point is moot anyway since the next order of IND division cars (presumably R-143, based on the R-110B) will be 67' long each. This is the same length as the old BMT standards which surely can run on the BMT Eastern Division lines (J/M/Z/L). --Dave
        
        Subject: Re: Why can't 75' cars use J, L, M, Z routes?
        Message Number: 757720
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:13 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Why can't 75' cars use J, L, M, Z routes? posted by Zack on September 02, 1997 at 23:06:56: 2 reasons I can think of: - Money. It's better spent elsewhere on items that need rehabilitation. - Logistics. In some instances, there simply isn't any ROOM to realign curves along the Eastern division. Some of those elevated curves get awfully close to the sides of dwellings and there's no space to realign curves. The "S" curve leaving Myrtle heading towards Metropolitan looks like it just barely fits where it is now. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Why can't 75' cars use J, L, M, Z routes?
        Message Number: 757725
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Why can't 75' cars use J, L, M, Z routes? posted by David Pirmann on September 03, 1997 at 09:54:57: There was one point back in the early 80s when the R46s were being rebuilt/retrofitted at East New York. I do not remember which project was involved, but it wasn't the truck replacement (new trucks were assembled at Bklyn Army Term, installed at Coney island). I seem to remember that there was concern that having 2 R46 trains on the Wmbg Br at the same time would not work because the cars have slanted sides and so could not fit side-by-side on the Bridge--not enough clearance. Also, to facilitate use of the barn structure at ENY (this is when the switches in that yard were still hand throw!!!) the doorways to the barn had to be reconfigured. I believe that involved removal of at least one support pillar at the entrance. Getting these Leviathans in and out of such a cramped space would not be practical, given the TA's desire to match up its fleets to the barns along side the lines served. (Unlike when the R27/30s ran on the RR and were serviced at ENY.-go figure!)
        
        Subject: Re: Why can't 75' cars use J, L, M, Z routes?
        Message Number: 757750
        Posted by: Lou from Middletown
        Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:17 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Why can't 75' cars use J, L, M, Z routes? posted by David Pirmann on September 03, 1997 at 09:54:57: Actually, if you look historically, even 67' cars are really too long for parts of the Eastern Division. This was the reason the BMT got the articulated MS units that could take the curves, especially on the Canarsie line, much quicker than the 67 ft. Standards. Why the TA or MTA have never considered such units for these lines is baffling (it probably has to do with standardization). Geller says in his BMT book that the BMT was able to run weekend service on the Canarsie with six trains of the MS units!!

Thread title: Manhattan Bridge Question (Clarification) (757716)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:17:10 1997, by RAC93

Subject: Manhattan Bridge Question (Clarification)
Message Number: 757716
Posted by: RAC93
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:10 1997

In Reply to: [5]Manhattan Bridge Question posted by RAC93 on September 02, 1997 at 04:57:15: By reading what Mr. Jacobi wrote, I think that I might have been misunderstood. What I meant to write was if the disconnected tracks from the Nassau St. Loop were visible from the tunnel leading to/from the Manhattan Bridge tracks that were in use by the "N" train (before construction). I think that they are because I recalled seeing a dark train (Then again, it was a tunnel) parked on a side track. Something like this: "N" Train Tracks (before bridge construction) Manhattan Bridge < - - - - - < - - - - - < - - - - - < - - - - - < - - - - - < - - - - - CANAL - - - - - > - - - - - > - - - - - > - - - - - > - - - - - > - - - - - > STREET The "N" train was leaving Canal Street towards the Manhattan Bridge and I was looking out of the rear door window on the last car. The slash represents the direction of the tracks where I believe I saw the dead end track with the older model train on it. Since this was around 1989, I don't recall for sure if this area is correct or not.
- Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Question (Clarification)
- Message Number: 757726
- Posted by: Bill
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:17 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Manhattan Bridge Question (Clarification) posted by RAC93 on September 03, 1997 at 04:31:43: What you saw out the back window was a layup train. On offpeak hours they will "park" or lay up a train on this "dead end" track. Those tracks go back to Chambers St. on the J line.
  - Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Question (Clarification)
  - Message Number: 757737
  - Posted by: RAC93
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:07 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Manhattan Bridge Question (Clarification) posted by Bill on September 03, 1997 at 14:39:11: Great! I got the answer that I was looking for. It was always a mystery to me. I have learned so much from this site... Thanx.
    - Subject: Re: Manhattan Bridge Question (Clarification)
    - Message Number: 757774
    - Posted by: Hank Eisenstein
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:36 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Manhattan Bridge Question (Clarification) posted by Bill on September 03, 1997 at 14:39:11: It was likely an R27 or R30, they were used on the J and M at that time almost exclusively.

Thread title: Re: Concerns regarding the MTA Student Metrocard-correction (757719)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:17:12 1997, by Gary Jacobi

Subject: Re: Concerns regarding the MTA Student Metrocard-correction
Message Number: 757719
Posted by: Gary Jacobi
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:12 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: Concerns regarding the MTA Student Metrocard posted by Gary Jacobi on September 02, 1997 at 19:06:44: The more I think about it, I had it backwards yesterday. The PM run was always a pass through; the morning was only free the last third of the semester.

Thread title: NYC Subway FAQ - Beta Edition (757722)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:17:14 1997, by David Pirmann

Subject: NYC Subway FAQ - Beta Edition
Message Number: 757722
Posted by: David Pirmann
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:14 1997

hello, I'm putting the NYC Subway FAQ up for review. It's still in early beta-- not all questions have been answered. Please look at it, suggest answers, suggest corrections, suggest questions.. [6]FAQ FAQ FAQ FAQ This has also gone out to nyc.transit and misc.transport.urban-transit. --Dave
- Subject: Re: NYC Subway FAQ - Beta Edition
- Message Number: 757799
- Posted by: david vartanoff
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:56 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]NYC Subway FAQ - Beta Edition posted by David Pirmann on September 03, 1997 at 12:48:58: ambitious,nifty. re Mnhtn bridge changeover: the final north side to Bway N's ran late Fri evening. (26 the first inbound revenue N on south side tracks circa 4:30 Mon morining if memory serves. I was loitering at DeKalb, and stayed thru part of morning rush to sateer passengers as most equipment had wrong or blank headsigns.

Thread title: LIVE BY THE #2 SUBWAY? PICS OF R110A NEEDED! (757723)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:17:15 1997, by Nick

Subject: LIVE BY THE #2 SUBWAY? PICS OF R110A NEEDED!
Message Number: 757723
Posted by: Nick
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:15 1997

The R110A runs on the #2 line during rush hours. Neither Dave or myself live anywhere near the #2 (in fact we don't live in NYC) If anyone could possibly get a snapshot of the R11)A, or perhaps already have one, it would be great if we could use it on this site. ANY VOLUNTEERS? Thank You Very Much!!!
- Subject: Re: LIVE BY THE #2 SUBWAY? PICS OF R110A NEEDED!
- Message Number: 757731
- Posted by: Benno
- Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:21 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]LIVE BY THE #2 SUBWAY? PICS OF R110A NEEDED! posted by Nick on September 03, 1997 at 13:04:22: While I don't have a picture, I can report that I had the honor of riding the 110a this very morning. In case it helps anyone, it left Penn Station Bronxbound at 9:12 (you can tell be the LED clock inside), though I wouldn't bet that the train makes the same run every day. Quite nice (by New York standards)... no window graffiti, but better yet, no advertisements littering the inside. (The LCD displays in windows seemed to be malfunctioning, though...) -Benn- "This is 96th Street. Change here for the 1, 3, and 9 lines." Wow... nobody ever suggested changing from the 2 to the 3 before.

Thread title: R142 AND 143:CONFIRMED?? (757724)
Started on Fri Sep 12 18:17:16 1997, by Nick

Subject: R142 AND 143:CONFIRMED??
Message Number: 757724
Posted by: Nick
Date: Fri Sep 12 18:17:16 1997

I know that the MTA has proposed ordering R142 and R143 cars for a 1999 delivery date. Has this purchase been confirmed yet, or is the MTA still negotiating?
- Subject: Re: R142 AND 143:CONFIRMED??
- Message Number: 757739
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:09 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]R142 AND 143:CONFIRMED?? posted by Nick on September 03, 1997 at 13:07:30: AN order for 1,080 IRT R-142s was approved by the MTA and NY State legislature. 600 cars from Kawasaki and 480 from Bombadier IIRC. Haven't heard anything on the R-143s yet. --Mark
  - Subject: Re: R142 AND 143:CONFIRMED??
  - Message Number: 757778
  - Posted by: Nick
  - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:35:39 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: R142 AND 143:CONFIRMED?? posted by Mark S Feinman on September 04, 1997 at 12:21:16: thank you for the Info, Mark! I assume the delivery date is still 1999?
    - Subject: Re: R142 AND 143:CONFIRMED??
    - Message Number: 757838
    - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    - Date: Wed Oct 15 08:36:26 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: R142 AND 143:CONFIRMED?? posted by Nick on September 05, 1997 at 18:24:47: Yes, I believe sometime in 1999 is correct. --Mark

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