SubTalk Archive 7/1997

Thread title: Does Graffitti stick to stanless steel??? (756249)
Started on Tue Jul 1 05:23:10 1997, by Zack

Subject: Does Graffitti stick to stanless steel???
Message Number: 756249
Posted by: Zack
Date: Tue Jul 1 05:23:10 1997

does spray paint adhere to stanless steel and is that why the NYCTA is switching over to stanless steelon its subways?
- Subject: Re: Does Graffitti stick to stanless steel???
- Message Number: 756250
- Posted by: John
- Date: Tue Jul 1 06:34:50 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Does Graffitti stick to stanless steel??? posted by Zack on July 01, 1997 at 05:23:10: According to the way it was 10-15-20 years ago, graffitti does adhere to stainless steel, but not as easy as it does to the LAHT cars. The reason why the Transit Authority is going stainless steel is because graffitti is very easy to remove from it.
  - Subject: Re: Does Graffitti stick to stanless steel???
  - Message Number: 756253
  - Posted by: Nick
  - Date: Tue Jul 1 10:37:06 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Does Graffitti stick to stanless steel??? posted by John on July 01, 1997 at 06:34:50: The transit authority has a super job on getting graffiti off cars for several years now. All we need now is window protectors to protect from scratches, and we'll be all set ('till another problem arises!). I know the R110 series already have these, and I assume the R142s and 3s will too. But what about The 67's and 68s? They still have a long time beforew retirement. Does the MTA plan to install protectors on these cars too?
    - Subject: Re: Does Graffitti stick to stanless steel???
    - Message Number: 756259
    - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    - Date: Tue Jul 1 12:13:55 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Does Graffitti stick to stanless steel??? posted by John on July 01, 1997 at 06:34:50: The property of Stainless Steel that makes Grafitti easy to remove is that it requires no paint to prevent rust. It was not the steel that was infiltrated by the Grafitti, but rather the base paint. If a strong enough solvent was used to remove the "art",the underlying coat of paint was harmed as well. This may explain why even painted stripes are no longer placed on newer cars.
      - Subject: Re: Does Graffitti stick to stanless steel???
      - Message Number: 756263
      - Posted by: M.J.S.
      - Date: Tue Jul 1 13:54:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Does Graffitti stick to stanless steel??? posted by Nick on July 01, 1997 at 10:37:06: An R-67 is an order for a bunch of trucks, don't you really mean R-62?
        
        Subject: Re: Does Graffitti stick to stanless steel???
        Message Number: 756266
        Posted by: ?
        Date: Tue Jul 1 15:54:55 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Does Graffitti stick to stanless steel??? posted by Nick on July 01, 1997 at 10:37:06: R-67?
        
        Subject: Re: Does Graffitti stick to stanless steel???
        Message Number: 756275
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Tue Jul 1 18:50:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Does Graffitti stick to stanless steel??? posted by Zack on July 01, 1997 at 05:23:10: Spray paint will adhere to stainless steel. The extent of the adhesion is dependent on the type of finish the stainless steel has. As the steel becomes more and more grained, the paint has a greater chance of adhering, making it harder to remove. The R-110B has an extremely grainy finish. Since it was built as a prototype, Bombardier did not use a high quality stainless steel for the car body. This train would be more difficult to clean that an R-32, even with the fluted sides.
        
        Subject: Re: Does Graffitti stick to stanless steel???
        Message Number: 756301
        Posted by: Nick
        Date: Wed Jul 2 10:24:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Does Graffitti stick to stanless steel??? posted by M.J.S. on July 01, 1997 at 13:54:16: Yes...sorry about that. I've looked through all the NYC subway cars pages, which are terrific. However, I haven't "memorized" everything yet, so please try to understand my petty mistakes...THANK YOU

Thread title: Funding MTA Projects (756251)
Started on Tue Jul 1 07:40:18 1997, by Julio Perez

Subject: Funding MTA Projects
Message Number: 756251
Posted by: Julio Perez
Date: Tue Jul 1 07:40:18 1997

Can't the MTA issue some sort of municipal bonds to fund projects on their wish list? That way, connections to the Javits Center, LGA, JFK, and SIR could become a bona fide reality and less of a transit planner's dream. Or, is it that Wall Street considers New York City such a liability that it is reluctant to encourage investors to consider muni bonds? It is my understanding that muni bonds have been used by other municipalities around the country to fund construction of limited access roadways (a.k.a. expressways, parkways, turnpikes, freeways, however you wish to call 'em). While LARs and rail systems are _definitely_ different, they are both transit-related projects for which funding should be obtained through similar means.
- Subject: Re: Funding MTA Projects
- Message Number: 756258
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Tue Jul 1 12:05:42 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Funding MTA Projects posted by Julio Perez on July 01, 1997 at 07:40:18: I'm afraid that putting money in MTA's hands has a long and decidedly sorry history. It seems to generate little except newspaper headlines.
  - Subject: Re: Funding MTA Projects
  - Message Number: 756264
  - Posted by: M.J.S.
  - Date: Tue Jul 1 13:58:21 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Funding MTA Projects posted by Gary Jacobi on July 01, 1997 at 12:05:42: This month in 1981 the MTA was given permission to sell bonds to fund projects. Where did you think they got money to get out of the 'Dark Ages' of the 70s?
    - Subject: Re: Funding MTA Projects
    - Message Number: 756279
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Tue Jul 1 21:11:53 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Funding MTA Projects posted by Julio Perez on July 01, 1997 at 07:40:18: MTA bonds are currently thought of as a fairly good investment. The bonds usually get a pretty good rating from Moodys or S&P. The raising of capital for rail projects is not difficult through bond sales. However, since this would account for about 10% of any project, it's the other 90% that becomes problematic. Most of the money for transit capital projects comes from the federal and state governments. NY's current executive branch (the governor) is from upstate so mass transit is not a high priority. The same can be said for the largly republican (rural) congress. Since the NY airports are owned and operated by the Port Authority of NY-NJ, any rail link would become their project anyway.
      - Subject: Re: Funding MTA Projects
      - Message Number: 756393
      - Posted by: Mark Greenwald
      - Date: Fri Jul 4 23:14:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Funding MTA Projects posted by Julio Perez on July 01, 1997 at 07:40:18: One thing that definately seems to be gaining momentum when it comes to financing transportation projects is to privatize them---In other words---get a corporate sponser. The Dulles Greenway which is a dual lane, limited access toll highway was funded primarily from private funds. The interesting thing is that it was designed to allow for some kind of median transit in the future, not necessarily related to the parent company. If your curious, it is a sort of extension of the Dulles Toll Road from Dulles Int'l Airport outside of DC to the Leesburg, Virginia area.

Thread title: R142 and 143 Pics (756252)
Started on Tue Jul 1 10:32:13 1997, by Nick

Subject: R142 and 143 Pics
Message Number: 756252
Posted by: Nick
Date: Tue Jul 1 10:32:13 1997

Does anyone have any pictures/designs of these cars? If so, could you tell me where I can get them, or possibly e-mail them to me if it's not in violation of any copyright laws? THANK YOU!
- Subject: Re: R142 and 143 Pics
- Message Number: 756255
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Tue Jul 1 11:40:49 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]R142 and 143 Pics posted by Nick on July 01, 1997 at 10:32:13: There are no pictures of the R142 or R143 because there aren't any yet! Funding hasn't even been approved so it's unlikely construction has even begun on the R142. No contracts have been approved for R143 (assuming that will even be the right #). The closest thing to a "design" that I've seen is that for the R110 cars in New York City Subway Cars, by Greller.
  - Subject: Re: R142 and 143 Pics
  - Message Number: 756268
  - Posted by: Bryan Layne
  - Date: Tue Jul 1 16:03:31 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: R142 and 143 Pics posted by David Pirmann on July 01, 1997 at 11:40:49: I found one!!Its a computer aided prototype though....[7]Go Here
    - Subject: Re: R142 and 143 Pics
    - Message Number: 756287
    - Posted by: Lou
    - Date: Tue Jul 1 23:41:01 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: R142 and 143 Pics posted by Bryan Layne on July 01, 1997 at 16:03:31: The requested URL /cityrail/r142nyct.gif/ was not found on this server. Check your link, this is what I got.
      - Subject: Re: R142 and 143 Pics
      - Message Number: 756299
      - Posted by: BryAN
      - Date: Wed Jul 2 10:03:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: R142 and 143 Pics posted by Lou on July 01, 1997 at 23:41:01: YA I GOT THE SAME THING ..I THOUGHT IT WAS AOL THOUGH CAUSE AOL IS STUPID.
        
        Subject: Re: R142 and 143 Pics
        Message Number: 756300
        Posted by: Nick
        Date: Wed Jul 2 10:21:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: R142 and 143 Pics posted by BryAN on July 02, 1997 at 10:03:23: Bryan..Thanks for trying, but the NAI server said the same thing. If you get it to work please e-mail me....THANKS

Thread title: Re: Does Graffiti stick to stanless steel??? (756265)
Started on Tue Jul 1 15:52:53 1997, by Bryan Layne

Subject: Re: Does Graffiti stick to stanless steel???
Message Number: 756265
Posted by: Bryan Layne
Date: Tue Jul 1 15:52:53 1997

In Reply to: [5]Does Graffitti stick to stanless steel??? posted by Zack on July 01, 1997 at 05:23:10: Yes it does.But the quality of the apperance and how easy it is to buff almost always drives graffiti artists away.It tends to run and does not cover as well as it does on the carbon steel cars.

Thread title: POP QUIZ (756280)
Started on Tue Jul 1 21:16:52 1997, by James

Subject: POP QUIZ
Message Number: 756280
Posted by: James
Date: Tue Jul 1 21:16:52 1997

Which subway line makes connections with the greatest number of different lines and which lines does it not connect with?
- Subject: Re: POP QUIZ
- Message Number: 756281
- Posted by: Andrew Byler
- Date: Tue Jul 1 21:34:58 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]POP QUIZ posted by James on July 01, 1997 at 21:16:52: An easy question ... The A train. From the A train one can connect to every other line on the system with one transfer at one station. From north to south ... 1,9,B,C - 168th St. D - 145th St. 2,3,7,S(IRT),E,N,R - Times Square L - 14th St. F,Q - West 4th St. 4,5,6,J,M,Z - Broadway-Nassau St. G - Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts. S (BMT) - Franklin Ave. (but only evenings, late nights, weekends) S (IND) - Braod Channel Any line missed? Not according to my map! It should be notes that the C train makes the same connections except for the S (IND), thus taking second place.
  - Subject: Re: POP QUIZ
  - Message Number: 756289
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Tue Jul 1 23:53:47 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: POP QUIZ posted by Andrew Byler on July 01, 1997 at 21:34:58: Correct but you missed a few connections. The A line connects with the J/Z and L at B'Way - East NY. It also connects with the 1/9 at time Sq and 59th St and the Fat Jay St. There are probably others. The A also never connects with the #6.
    - Subject: Re: POP QUIZ
    - Message Number: 756320
    - Posted by: M.J.S.
    - Date: Wed Jul 2 22:39:17 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]POP QUIZ posted by James on July 01, 1997 at 21:16:52: (A) 8 Avenue Express Does not connect to (6) or Lexington Avenue Local 2nd Place: (R) Broadway Local Does not connect to (S) Franklin Avenue Shuttle or (S) Rockaway Park Shuttle
      - Subject: Re: POP QUIZ
      - Message Number: 756321
      - Posted by: Andrew Byler
      - Date: Wed Jul 2 22:40:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: POP QUIZ posted by Steve on July 01, 1997 at 23:53:47: Actually, I didn't miss them - I simply listed connections from north to south. There is no point mentioning connections to the same line multiple times, when the object is to list all the lines it connects to. Andy

Thread title: Re: POP QUIZ (missed one!) (756282)
Started on Tue Jul 1 21:36:55 1997, by Andrew Byler

Subject: Re: POP QUIZ (missed one!)
Message Number: 756282
Posted by: Andrew Byler
Date: Tue Jul 1 21:36:55 1997

In Reply to: [6]POP QUIZ posted by James on July 01, 1997 at 21:16:52: Ooops! I got distracted while writing and forgot to mention that these lines (A,C) do not connect with the 6! Otheriwse, they make every connection. Andy

Thread title: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines (756284)
Started on Tue Jul 1 22:51:41 1997, by Zack

Subject: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines
Message Number: 756284
Posted by: Zack
Date: Tue Jul 1 22:51:41 1997

can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines?? and can the serve on thoes lines with plankes inbetween the cars and platform?? *please excuse my spelling*
- Subject: Re: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines
- Message Number: 756288
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Tue Jul 1 23:46:25 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines posted by Zack on July 01, 1997 at 22:51:41: Mechanically, yes. The cars all run on the same gauge track and the 3rd rails are virtually the same height. Safetywise, though, IRT cars cannot run n BMT tracks because the IRT Trip Cocks are on the opposite side of the car from BMT/IND cars and therefore would not have adequate signal protection...
  - Subject: Re: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines
  - Message Number: 756298
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Wed Jul 2 09:15:42 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines posted by Zack on July 01, 1997 at 22:51:41: IRT cars physically can run on BMT/IND lines and sometimes do when traveling to Coney Island or other yards for maintenance service. Except on the 7 line, however, the IRT cars have the t

Thread title: Child Fare in NYC Subway (756285)
Started on Tue Jul 1 23:10:26 1997, by Shig

Subject: Child Fare in NYC Subway
Message Number: 756285
Posted by: Shig
Date: Tue Jul 1 23:10:26 1997

I looked at MTA site and could not find any infomation about reduced fare for children in NYC subway. Does a small child also have to pay $1.50 ? How about a baby ? Are there other subway systems without reduced fare for children ?
- Subject: Re: Child Fare in NYC Subway
- Message Number: 756286
- Posted by: Lou
- Date: Tue Jul 1 23:38:11 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Child Fare in NYC Subway posted by Shig on July 01, 1997 at 23:10:26: Children under a certian height ride free. I don't know the height but my 4yr old nephew still rides free with me.
  - Subject: Re: Child Fare in NYC Subway
  - Message Number: 756310
  - Posted by: John
  - Date: Wed Jul 2 13:39:54 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Child Fare in NYC Subway posted by Lou on July 01, 1997 at 23:38:11: Any child under 44 inches rides free by ducking under the turnstile (or, if he/she is skilled, he/she can jump the turnstile).
    - Subject: Re: Child Fare in NYC Subway
    - Message Number: 756331
    - Posted by: ~airplane
    - Date: Thu Jul 3 00:21:31 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Child Fare in NYC Subway posted by John on July 02, 1997 at 13:39:54: I heard on the news last week that the mayor has a new plan to allow children to ride the subway for $1.00 on weekends. When and if this will happen is anyone's guess (if anyone has a guess, I'd like to hear it).
      - Subject: Re: Child Fare in NYC Subway
      - Message Number: 756335
      - Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
      - Date: Thu Jul 3 05:44:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Child Fare in NYC Subway posted by John on July 02, 1997 at 13:39:54: Boy I'm getting old it seems... I was sure that someone would quote the old subway placards on this subject: "Small enough to ride for free - small enough to ride your knee"
        
        Subject: Re: Child Fare in NYC Subway
        Message Number: 756379
        Posted by: M.J.S.
        Date: Fri Jul 4 00:59:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Child Fare in NYC Subway posted by ~airplane on July 03, 1997 at 00:21:31: But they already ride free this is BAD!!!!
        
        Subject: Re: Child Fare in NYC Subway
        Message Number: 756404
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Sat Jul 5 11:07:49 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Child Fare in NYC Subway posted by Shig on July 01, 1997 at 23:10:26: You bring back an old memory with this question. I was a very tall child even at five years of age, and the little grey haired lady who tended the Crescent st station would always challenge my Mote phrase " How old is the boy?" Under six was the correct answer then; if it is 44" now, I would be dead meat.

Thread title: how can i get from Laguardia to long Island??? (756290)
Started on Wed Jul 2 00:34:47 1997, by Al

Subject: how can i get from Laguardia to long Island???
Message Number: 756290
Posted by: Al
Date: Wed Jul 2 00:34:47 1997

i have looked at maps and i can't see where the subway connects to laguardia. as you can tell i have never been to ny. i need to know the easiest way to get from laguardia to syosset ny. also what's up with this long island rail road>> could i get to syosset from LGAirport using the longisland rail road
- Subject: how can i get from Laguardia to long Island???
- Message Number: 756291
- Posted by: Al
- Date: Wed Jul 2 00:35:16 1997
  
  i have looked at maps and i can't see where the subway connects to laguardia. as you can tell i have never been to ny. i need to know the easiest way to get from laguardia to syosset ny. also what's up with this long island rail road>> could i get to syosset from LGAirport using the longisland rail road
  - Subject: Re: how can i get from Laguardia to long Island???
  - Message Number: 756292
  - Posted by: sam
  - Date: Wed Jul 2 02:21:20 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]how can i get from Laguardia to long Island??? posted by Al on July 02, 1997 at 00:34:47: Its a pain in the ass so to speak. The best thing to do is hop in a cab and go to Jamaica Center. From there you can catch a train to Soyosset. Any Carey (Airport) bus will only take you as far as Grand Central Terminal or the Port Authority Bus Terminal. You're still going to be left with the problem of getting to Penn Station. Another solution is to take the regular city bus to the 74th Street station (I forget which number it is, but you can find out at the airport). From there, take the E train to Jamaica. Up above is the Long Island Rail Road hub and you can find a train to Soyosset there.
    - Subject: Re: how can i get from Laguardia to long Island???
    - Message Number: 756295
    - Posted by: Dave
    - Date: Wed Jul 2 06:51:09 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: how can i get from Laguardia to long Island??? posted by sam on July 02, 1997 at 02:21:20: You cannot go directly between LaGuardia and Syosset on the LIRR. The cheapest (albeit not the easiest) way is when you get off the plane, exit the airport building and get on the Q33 bus. Take it to the last stop, the 74st-Broadway subway station. Walk upstairs to the #7 train (elevated) and take it to the 61st St.-Woodside stop. Walk downstairs and you'll be at the Woodside LIRR station. From there you can take a train to Syosset
      - Subject: Re: how can i get from Laguardia to long Island???
      - Message Number: 756296
      - Posted by: stan
      - Date: Wed Jul 2 07:45:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: how can i get from Laguardia to long Island??? posted by Dave on July 02, 1997 at 06:51:09: There is another way, Carey bus runs Bus Service between LGA and the Jamiaica Station of the LIRR, also between JFK and the Station, the last time I took it it was $5 p/p
        
        Subject: Re: how can i get from Laguardia to long Island???
        Message Number: 756297
        Posted by: stan
        Date: Wed Jul 2 07:45:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: how can i get from Laguardia to long Island??? posted by Dave on July 02, 1997 at 06:51:09: There is another way, Carey bus runs Bus Service between LGA and the Jamiaica Station of the LIRR, also between JFK and the Station, the last time I took it it was $5 p/p
        
        Subject: Re: how can i get from Laguardia to long Island???
        Message Number: 756330
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Jul 2 23:35:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]how can i get from Laguardia to long Island??? posted by Al on July 02, 1997 at 00:35:16: Carey bus lines runs a bus at 30 minute intervals or less. It stops at most of the LGA terminals and for $5.00, will take you to the LIRR Jamaica Station. You can get a train to Syossett there.

Thread title: 2nd Ave Subway (756293)
Started on Wed Jul 2 02:24:48 1997, by zeeve

Subject: 2nd Ave Subway
Message Number: 756293
Posted by: zeeve
Date: Wed Jul 2 02:24:48 1997

Does anyone know if the Second Ave subway was to be IND, BMT or IRT? And what lines would it connect with? Would it be part of the huge connection at Canal Street?
- Subject: Re: 2nd Ave Subway
- Message Number: 756326
- Posted by: M.J.S.
- Date: Wed Jul 2 22:51:47 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]2nd Ave Subway posted by zeeve on July 02, 1997 at 02:24:48: 1. Please tell me what the MODERN difference of the BMT and IND is 2. There was to be no Canal Street station on the 2 Ave. Subway 3. IRT cars are narrower and shorter and cannot be moved to a major repair shop without special provisions, so do you think anybody would be stupid enough to build a new trunkline as IRT?
  - Subject: Re: 2nd Ave Subway
  - Message Number: 756337
  - Posted by: John
  - Date: Thu Jul 3 06:15:29 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: 2nd Ave Subway posted by M.J.S. on July 02, 1997 at 22:51:47: There is no modern difference between the BMT and IND; the two divisions are fully integrated.
    - Subject: Re: 2nd Ave Subway
    - Message Number: 756402
    - Posted by: Zack
    - Date: Sat Jul 5 02:34:35 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: 2nd Ave Subway posted by John on July 03, 1997 at 06:15:29: no one has wider cars the other doesent
      - Subject: Re: 2nd Ave Subway
      - Message Number: 756403
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Sat Jul 5 10:56:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]2nd Ave Subway posted by zeeve on July 02, 1997 at 02:24:48: By the time building the 2nd ave was "imminent" (Ha ha), the subways all were under NYCTA control. They had not yet eliminated the BMT/IND distinction, but the connections at Christie St. would indicate that it could have operated either.as

Thread title: I want to buy turnstiles (756294)
Started on Wed Jul 2 06:26:08 1997, by Joris Fiers

Subject: I want to buy turnstiles
Message Number: 756294
Posted by: Joris Fiers
Date: Wed Jul 2 06:26:08 1997

I am looking to buy turnstiles. Does anybody know where I can get them at a decent price? Thank you for any help you might offer.
- Subject: Re: I want to buy turnstiles
- Message Number: 756309
- Posted by: John
- Date: Wed Jul 2 13:35:18 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]I want to buy turnstiles posted by Joris Fiers on July 02, 1997 at 06:26:08: You know, I think it'd be pretty cool to own a turnstile. I could practice turnstile-jumping :-)
  - Subject: Re: I want to buy turnstiles
  - Message Number: 756313
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Wed Jul 2 14:33:06 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]I want to buy turnstiles posted by Joris Fiers on July 02, 1997 at 06:26:08: There's a clothing store called (I think) "Transit," on lower Broadway south of Astor Place. The entryway has what looks like an authentic turnstile. Store personnel might be able to tell you where they acquired it.

Thread title: R Train (756302)
Started on Wed Jul 2 11:37:56 1997, by jcooper

Subject: R Train
Message Number: 756302
Posted by: jcooper
Date: Wed Jul 2 11:37:56 1997

Will the R train be extend from 95th street terminal to St georges st terminal in Staten Island to connect with the SI rapid Transit in the future? The money the MTA is making they can afford to build a tunnel through the narrows.I hope so because I tired of paying two fares to staten Is using the R train and S5 to see my cousins.
- Subject: Re: R Train
- Message Number: 756308
- Posted by: John
- Date: Wed Jul 2 13:33:41 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]R Train posted by jcooper on July 02, 1997 at 11:37:56: Don't count on a tunnel ever being built to Staten Island. We all know who to blame for the condemnent of building a subway link to Staten Island (i.e. - Gvnr. Robert Moses). As for the two fares, that will be no longer if you buy a MetroCard Gold. With that card, you can make free transfers between subway/bus, bus/subway within two hours of using the card.
  - Subject: Re: R Train
  - Message Number: 756315
  - Posted by: Michael Berson
  - Date: Wed Jul 2 21:08:51 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: R Train posted by John on July 02, 1997 at 13:33:41: Would it be possible to have trains and cars share the lower level of the Verrazanno Bridge? I believe there are 6 lanes of traffic on each level (3 lanes each way). Couldn't some of that space on the lower level be turned into a ROW for the R train? Mike
    - Subject: Re: R Train
    - Message Number: 756322
    - Posted by: Zack
    - Date: Wed Jul 2 22:42:37 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: R Train posted by Michael Berson on July 02, 1997 at 21:08:51: insterating propisition but where would the traks come from in its way across an incline??? on what route would it be on ??? would it be irt or bmt/ind (i remeberd them :)) where would the displaced traffic go to?? thers a lot more then just layin track.
      - Subject: Re: R Train
      - Message Number: 756325
      - Posted by: M.J.S.
      - Date: Wed Jul 2 22:49:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: R Train posted by Zack on July 02, 1997 at 22:42:37: Please tell me one IRT line that comes anywhere near the Verrazano Bridge and I will mail you a check for $100.00. BTW, Please tell me what the difference is between the BMT and IND in planning routes?
        
        Subject: Re: R Train
        Message Number: 756328
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Jul 2 23:22:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: R Train posted by John on July 02, 1997 at 13:33:41: Robert Moses was never a governor of NY or any other state.
        
        Subject: Re: R Train
        Message Number: 756329
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Jul 2 23:31:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]R Train posted by jcooper on July 02, 1997 at 11:37:56: The lower deck of the Verrezanno bridge was built with the promise that it would be used partially for a subway connection to Staten Island (presumably an extension of the line from 4th Ave. & 95th St). After the deck was added, Robert Moses, the master builder of NY, who hated mass transit, had the subway link killed. Under the present state government, I would not assume that the revival of the Verrazanno Bridge subway link would be given serious consideration.
        
        Subject: Re: R Train
        Message Number: 756333
        Posted by: Zack
        Date: Thu Jul 3 04:43:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: R Train posted by M.J.S. on July 02, 1997 at 22:49:14: the #2,5 comr the closest that i can see
        
        Subject: Re: R Train
        Message Number: 756334
        Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
        Date: Thu Jul 3 05:41:10 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: R Train posted by Zack on July 03, 1997 at 04:43:42: Robert Moses succeeded in getting a lower level built BECAUSE of the hint that it would be available for a train link!
        
        Subject: Re: R Train
        Message Number: 756336
        Posted by: John
        Date: Thu Jul 3 06:13:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: R Train posted by Zack on July 03, 1997 at 04:43:42: And it's STILL nowhere near the Verrezano Bridge.
        
        Subject: Re: R Train
        Message Number: 756342
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Thu Jul 3 07:50:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: R Train posted by Steve on July 02, 1997 at 23:22:57: > Robert Moses was never a governor of NY Well, not officially. --Dave
        
        Subject: Re: R Train
        Message Number: 756344
        Posted by: Dan
        Date: Thu Jul 3 09:37:32 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]R Train posted by jcooper on July 02, 1997 at 11:37:56: The last thing we need on SI is a direct connection to the subway! It would cost a fortune to build, and another smaller fortune to extend the platforms on the SIR to 10-car length (currently 4 or 5 car length), install 'subway' signals, install turnstiles (currently pay-on-board). Money would be better spent on buying more comfortable and reliable express buses, a lot cheaper than any rail-based solution.
        
        Subject: Re: R Train
        Message Number: 756350
        Posted by: John
        Date: Thu Jul 3 14:12:53 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: R Train posted by David Pirmann on July 03, 1997 at 07:50:37: Than why is the State Park on Fire Island named after him? And why is there a Robert Moses Bridge near Buffalo/Niagara Falls?
        
        Subject: Re: R Train
        Message Number: 756352
        Posted by: M.J.S.
        Date: Thu Jul 3 14:19:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: R Train posted by John on July 03, 1997 at 14:12:53: One need not be governor to have landmarks named after one's self.
        
        Subject: Re: R Train
        Message Number: 756365
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Thu Jul 3 21:48:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: R Train posted by John on July 03, 1997 at 14:12:53: Moses held jusat about every powerful post, including the Niagra power net work, and LI park comission. If you never read another book, you must read The Power Broker by Robert Caro. It is a huge book, but it had to be to retell everything Moses did.

Thread title: The R-62 on 7 Line? (756303)
Started on Wed Jul 2 12:31:59 1997, by jcooper

Subject: The R-62 on 7 Line?
Message Number: 756303
Posted by: jcooper
Date: Wed Jul 2 12:31:59 1997

Can the R-62 cars run on the 7 Line? And will it operate on the 7 line in the near future? I'm tired of seeing the same red cars over and over again. I like to hear the tones when the doors close.
- Subject: Re: The R-62 on 7 Line?
- Message Number: 756307
- Posted by: John
- Date: Wed Jul 2 13:29:48 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]The R-62 on 7 Line? posted by jcooper on July 02, 1997 at 12:31:59: A few R-62s ran on the #7 in the early 1980s, but they were taken off afterwards. I think the R-142 will run on the 7 line once their delivery commences.
  - Subject: Re: The R-62 on 7 Line?
  - Message Number: 756382
  - Posted by: Charles
  - Date: Fri Jul 4 09:12:38 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: The R-62 on 7 Line? posted by John on July 02, 1997 at 13:29:48: I agree with the fact that the flushing line needs new cars. The older cars though they are workhorses they are showing their age. However the R142's will first go to the 2/5 lines to replace the R26,28,29's The R36's on the flushing line will be the last of the "redbirds" to go. I heard a rumor that when the R62A's ran out on the flushing line that they lost a few guard lights in the Stienway tunnel.

Thread title: Any new cars becides as the R68's (756304)
Started on Wed Jul 2 12:35:14 1997, by jcooper

Subject: Any new cars becides as the R68's
Message Number: 756304
Posted by: jcooper
Date: Wed Jul 2 12:35:14 1997

Are there new cars out there? If they are, what line does it run on?
- Subject: Re: Any new cars becides as the R68's
- Message Number: 756306
- Posted by: John
- Date: Wed Jul 2 13:27:24 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Any new cars becides as the R68's posted by jcooper on July 02, 1997 at 12:35:14: The R-110A and 110B are the newest trains is service, but there are only two of them (one each), and the run irregularly. As far as I know, they are used on the A and the #2 line.
  - Subject: Re: Any new cars becides as the R68's
  - Message Number: 756339
  - Posted by: Dave
  - Date: Thu Jul 3 06:50:59 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Any new cars becides as the R68's posted by John on July 02, 1997 at 13:27:24: Why the big jump in car numbers from R-68 to R-110? It seems the later in time, the bigger the jump in the numbers. For example, the early R's "moved" slowly - R-10, R-11, R-12, etc. Then later, R-32, R-36, R-40, R-42. Then the jump from R-46 to R-62, followed by a large jump from R-68 to R-110. Anyone have an explanation?
    - Subject: Re: Any new cars becides as the R68's
    - Message Number: 756341
    - Posted by: David Pirmann
    - Date: Thu Jul 3 07:47:28 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Any new cars becides as the R68's posted by Dave on July 03, 1997 at 06:50:59: R-contract numbers are assigned to everything-- not just passenger cars. There hasn't been a passenger car order since the R62 and R68 in the 80s. So lots of numbers have been assigned to other things. For a list, see [7]http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/rroster.htm -Dave
      - Subject: Re: Any new cars becides as the R68's
      - Message Number: 756383
      - Posted by: Dave
      - Date: Fri Jul 4 10:19:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Any new cars becides as the R68's posted by David Pirmann on July 03, 1997 at 07:47:28: Very interesting, David. Thanks!
        
        Subject: Re: Any new cars becides as the R68's
        Message Number: 756446
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Mon Jul 7 18:45:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Any new cars becides as the R68's posted by jcooper on July 02, 1997 at 12:35:14: Yes, the TA bought ten work cars, the r-127 built by Kawasaki in 1992. They resemble the IRT R62. They are numbered EP01-EP10. SOURCE: New York City SUbway Cars-Greller,The book has a picture but I do nort have a scanner or digital camera.
        
        Subject: Re: Any new cars becides as the R68's
        Message Number: 756454
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Jul 7 23:21:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Any new cars becides as the R68's posted by subway-buff on July 07, 1997 at 18:45:09: Correct. They also bought the R-134s which are like the 127s. Also, the vacuum train has been delivered.
        
        Subject: Re: Any new cars becides as the R68's
        Message Number: 756475
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Tue Jul 8 19:31:22 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Any new cars becides as the R68's posted by Dave on July 03, 1997 at 06:50:59: Between the 12s and 32s you forgot the 15s, 16,s, 17s, 22s, 27s & 30s. Between the 42s and 46s you forgot the 44s. Otherwise, Dave has covered the reason for the gaps.
        
        Subject: Re: Any new cars becides as the R68's
        Message Number: 756673
        Posted by: Joe Camel
        Date: Tue Jul 15 00:27:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Any new cars becides as the R68's posted by Steve on July 07, 1997 at 23:21:44: are the R-134 cars going to replace the ozone depleting R-11 and R-12 cars?
        
        Subject: Re: Any new cars becides as the R68's
        Message Number: 756677
        Posted by: John
        Date: Tue Jul 15 06:13:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Any new cars becides as the R68's posted by Joe Camel on July 15, 1997 at 00:27:29: Say whaaaaaaaa? Man, those cars are long gone! (How are they ozone depleting? They're electric! Just like all the other subway cars!)

Thread title: Re: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines (Second try!) (756305)
Started on Wed Jul 2 13:26:34 1997, by Peter Rosa

Subject: Re: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines (Second try!)
Message Number: 756305
Posted by: Peter Rosa
Date: Wed Jul 2 13:26:34 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines posted by Peter Rosa on July 02, 1997 at 09:15:42: Okay, hopefully it'll come out right *this* time :-) At any rate, while IRT cars can fit on the BMT/IND lines, their trip cocks (used to apply the brakes if a train passes a red signal) are on the "wrong" side. An IRT train operating on BMT/IND tracks, for example one on the way to the Coney Island yard for heavy maintenance, therefore has to have a BMT/IND car coupled on the front to ensure proper trip cock operation. I believe that the 7 train is an exception to this rule as the cars used on the 7 have their trip cocks on the BMT/IND side. Note also that an IRT train can't use BMT/IND tracks for passenger service as the platform-door gap would be dangerously wide.
- Subject: Re: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines (Second try!)
- Message Number: 756374
- Posted by: John Lant
- Date: Fri Jul 4 00:10:10 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines (Second try!) posted by Peter Rosa on July 02, 1997 at 13:26:34: YOU ARE CORRECT. While IRT Subway cars can fit on the BMT rails,the cars are much shorter and narrower than the IND & BMT cars, and IRT trip cocks and cab are located on opposite sides. This arrangement makes the operation on the normal main lines almost impossiable do to the signal interlocking structures along the way. By the way BMT & IND can be run on the same line with out any problems. The IRT car's have to be shorter and narrower because the IRT subway was the first of the Railroads to be built in NYC and they followed the early designs borrowed from Europe. By the way are you the Train Master for the IRT?
  - Subject: Re: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines (Second try!)
  - Message Number: 756377
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Fri Jul 4 00:41:32 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines (Second try!) posted by John Lant on July 04, 1997 at 00:10:10: Peter might be correct but you certainly are not. The cabs on IRT equipment are definitely NOT on the opposite side as compared to the BMT/IND equipment. For the record, on IND/BMT equipment, the tripcock is located on the corners of the car which is opposite the T/O cab. On IRT equipment (Except the #7 line cars) the trip cock is located on the same side as the cab. #7 line cars are equipped the same way as the BMT/IND cars in so far as the trip cock is concerned.
    - Subject: Re: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines (Second try!)
    - Message Number: 756380
    - Posted by: Shane
    - Date: Fri Jul 4 01:54:44 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines (Second try!) posted by Steve on July 04, 1997 at 00:41:32: Is it true that the cars originally did not have proper spacing between rails, and that when unification occured, the tracks were matched and the wheels on BMT/IND/IRT were adjusted appropriately? I seem to remember that European track widths are different than the USA. Or was that European track widths are different than non-Allied tracks for wartime intersystem blockage reasons.
      - Subject: Re: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines (Second try!)
      - Message Number: 756401
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Sat Jul 5 00:39:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines (Second try!) posted by Shane on July 04, 1997 at 01:54:44: No, everything I have heard indicates that the IRT and BMT were always 'standard gauge' operations. The Els, because of the tight curves through the NY canyons, used shorter, narrower cars than did the subways. It the 20s and 30s, the BMT & IRT shared the trackage on the line which is now the #7 line. This ended when the BMT went to wider cars. This explains the odd arrangement at Queensboro Plaza.
        
        Subject: Re: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines (Second try!)
        Message Number: 756458
        Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
        Date: Tue Jul 8 10:54:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines (Second try!) posted by Steve on July 05, 1997 at 00:39:21: Going back to the Astoria/Flushing joint operation; this worked for one reason - The IRT subway cars and both system's el cars were essentially the same size. Since both IRT lines were through routed (Steinway Tunnel and 2nd Av.) I would expect that the trips at that time matched the IRT standard, and were changed after the BMT connection at Queensboro Plaza became the only connection to the rest of the system. (There was a period when the 7 line connected only to the BMT, there was no connection from the BMT to the IND or from IND to IRT as there is today. (1940s)) When they were retired from the subway, the original IRT composite cars ran on the els for many years, a definite advantage to having a uniform car size. The BMT put 10' equipment on their els with the Multis and rebuilds such as the C types, often creating situations where 9' and 10' cars had to mix, but with a few minor exceptions, never operated subway equipment of any type on an older el.

Thread title: "SWIPE HERE AGAIN!" or else! (756311)
Started on Wed Jul 2 13:53:51 1997, by Mitch

Subject: "SWIPE HERE AGAIN!" or else!
Message Number: 756311
Posted by: Mitch
Date: Wed Jul 2 13:53:51 1997

Let's say you swipe your metrocard at a subway turnstile and it says "SWIPE HERE AGAIN!". You try a couple more times, but keep getting the same message. You think something's wrong with the card reader so you go to a different turnstile and swipe the card. It works at the second turnstile OK and you go through. According to what I heard, this scenario may result in two fares being deducted. If you look at the metrocard brochure, it says, "And if the display says, "SWIPE AGAIN HERE!", swipe the card at the same turnstile until the display says "GO". Do not move to another turnstile. " This is what I believe is happening: when you swipe the metrocard, it has to (1) read the information on the card, (2) accept the card and compute the new value, (3) write the new value to the card, and (4) read back what it just wrote to make sure it verifies. Let's say that it gets as far as step (3), but has a problem with step (4) because you varied the swipe speed. The card has been debited by one fare, but the transaction isn't finished -- you haven't gone through. When you move prematurely to another turnstile, the new turnstile has no knowledge that your transaction wasn't completed, and it debits the card again. I see a lot of people do this with metrocards -- they try at one turnstile a couple of times and then give up and go to another. They don't realize it, but I think they're being charged twice. Yet another reason why I won't use the metrocard until forced. Anyone have an opinion on this? Thanks.
- Subject: Re: "SWIPE HERE AGAIN!" or else!
- Message Number: 756312
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Wed Jul 2 14:28:57 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]"SWIPE HERE AGAIN!" or else! posted by Mitch on July 02, 1997 at 13:53:51: Twice within the last few weeks I got "SWIPE HERE AGAIN" messages but ended up having to use other turnstiles when repeated re-swipings were unsuccessful. Each time, the re-swiping at the second turnstile only deducted a single fare. That's not to say that there isn't a risk of a double deduction - I wouldn't use a second turnstile unless necessary - but it's clearly not a certainty.
  - Subject: Re: "SWIPE HERE AGAIN!" or else!
  - Message Number: 756433
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Mon Jul 7 13:39:40 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]"SWIPE HERE AGAIN!" or else! posted by Mitch on July 02, 1997 at 13:53:51: What you suggest is not beyond the realm of the possible. If it were to happen to me, before swiping in a second turnstile, I would go to the token booth where there is a customer accessible card reader and I would make sure that no money had been deducted from the card. I would then report any discrepancies to the token clerk. Just as an aside - I have been using the metrocard readers for over a year now and have not had a single problem.

Thread title: Re: R142 and 143 Pics (WORKING LINK TO SAME PIC) (756317)
Started on Wed Jul 2 22:05:58 1997, by M.J.S.

Subject: Re: R142 and 143 Pics (WORKING LINK TO SAME PIC)
Message Number: 756317
Posted by: M.J.S.
Date: Wed Jul 2 22:05:58 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: R142 and 143 Pics posted by Nick on July 02, 1997 at 10:21:19: Check this link: [7]www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Lights/2742/r142nyct.gif (it's stored on my website) Now thank me for working hard and getting the pic for you all, that happens to be the same pic that the original poster linked to.
- Subject: Re: R142 and 143 Pics (WORKING LINK TO SAME PIC)
- Message Number: 756318
- Posted by: M.J.S.
- Date: Wed Jul 2 22:09:07 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: R142 and 143 Pics posted by Nick on July 02, 1997 at 10:21:19: Check this link: [7]www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Lights/2742/r142nyct.gif (it's stored on my website) Now thank me for working hard and getting the pic for you all, that happens to be the same pic that the original poster linked to.
  - Subject: Re: R142 and 143 Pics (WORKING LINK TO SAME PIC)
  - Message Number: 756369
  - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
  - Date: Thu Jul 3 22:13:40 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: R142 and 143 Pics (WORKING LINK TO SAME PIC) posted by M.J.S. on July 02, 1997 at 22:09:07: Guess what?? The link to Geocities still doesn't work. (Geocities gives the message "can't find the file you want")
    - Subject: Re: R142 and 143 Pics (WORKING LINK TO SAME PIC)
    - Message Number: 756384
    - Posted by: subway-buff
    - Date: Fri Jul 4 10:29:45 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: R142 and 143 Pics (WORKING LINK TO SAME PIC) posted by M.J.S. on July 02, 1997 at 22:05:58: I checked * all* the links and one work. I still get the same error message. I am convinced that these pics are the 90s version of the second ave subway- here but not here ! Like Roosevelt Ave IND- disused platform witrh tile and no track ....

Thread title: what will happen to the r-110's (756323)
Started on Wed Jul 2 22:46:49 1997, by Zack

Subject: what will happen to the r-110's
Message Number: 756323
Posted by: Zack
Date: Wed Jul 2 22:46:49 1997

when the r 14x's arrive what will happen to the r-110's will they be modidfed like R-14x's,will they be scrapped what wil happen to them???
- Subject: Re: what will happen to the r-110's
- Message Number: 756439
- Posted by: Charles
- Date: Mon Jul 7 16:56:11 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]what will happen to the r-110's posted by Zack on July 02, 1997 at 22:46:49: I don't work for NYCT but my best guess is that the R110B could stay in service on the A or if the TA wanted to repeat history they could put them on the Franklin Shuttle, Just as the R11/34's were. The R110A's could go to the Dyre Avenue Shuttle or they could save it as a museum train.

Thread title: MORE R142 PICS (756327)
Started on Wed Jul 2 23:14:20 1997, by M.J.S.

Subject: MORE R142 PICS
Message Number: 756327
Posted by: M.J.S.
Date: Wed Jul 2 23:14:20 1997

Check out 2 R142 pics now!!! * [6]www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Lights/2742/r142nyct.gifAlso posted on another message. * [7]http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Lights/2742/nyctr142.jpg Zoom of Pic 1
- Subject: Re: MORE R142 PICS
- Message Number: 756332
- Posted by: daibi
- Date: Thu Jul 3 03:07:02 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]MORE R142 PICS posted by M.J.S. on July 02, 1997 at 23:14:20:
  - Subject: Re: MORE R142 PICS
  - Message Number: 756353
  - Posted by: Lou
  - Date: Thu Jul 3 15:46:04 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]MORE R142 PICS posted by M.J.S. on July 02, 1997 at 23:14:20: Sorry It don't work here is their nice message: Unfortunately, we couldn't find the file that you're looking for at http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Lights/2742/nyctr142.jpg . Are you sure you typed it correctly?

Thread title: Second Picture Not Found! (Was Re: MORE R142 PICS) (756340)
Started on Thu Jul 3 07:44:20 1997, by Julio Perez

Subject: Second Picture Not Found! (Was Re: MORE R142 PICS)
Message Number: 756340
Posted by: Julio Perez
Date: Thu Jul 3 07:44:20 1997

In Reply to: [6]MORE R142 PICS posted by M.J.S. on July 02, 1997 at 23:14:20: GeoCities says the file http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Lights/2742/nyctr142.jpg is not found. Are you sure that's the correct link???

Thread title: Is there hope for New York Subways? (756347)
Started on Thu Jul 3 13:08:59 1997, by Andrew Byler

Subject: Is there hope for New York Subways?
Message Number: 756347
Posted by: Andrew Byler
Date: Thu Jul 3 13:08:59 1997

I was just thinking about this, and it is something everyone should consider when they talk grandiose plans about subway extensions. Under the TA and MTA since unification in 1940, the Subway has accomplished just about zilch in terms of new constrcution, despite billions being allocated to it. 1941 - Dyre Ave. (rebuild) 1948 - E. New York to Euclid (replacement for el) 1950 - 169th to 179th on the E/F 1954 - Church to Ditmas on the F 1956 - Rockaways (rebuild) 1967 - Chrsytie St. Connection 1968 - 6th Ave. express tracks and extension to 57th St. 1968 - 145th to 148th on the 3 1989 - 63rd St. Tunnel 1989 - Archer Ave. (replacement for el) The same period saw the abandonment of the 3rd Ave. and Myrtle Ave els, the 9th Ave. shuttle from Jerome Ave. to the Polo Grounds (which could have been easily turned into an extension of the 3 with very little investment), and the Culver Shuttle. Comparing this to the previous period from 1904 to 1940 makes it look exceedingly unfavorable. It looks even worse when you recall what was never accomplished but promised (2nd Ave., Queens Express Bypass, LI Exp. line, Rosedale extension, Utica Ave line, Nostrand Ave. extension, extending the L, Midtown crosstown line, replacing the 3rd Ave el in the Bronx, connecting to Staten Island - then of course there is the whole IND 2nd System, some of which included previously mentioned lines, some of which did not). A pretty pathetic record. Andy
- Subject: Re: Is there hope for New York Subways?
- Message Number: 756381
- Posted by: Zee've
- Date: Fri Jul 4 03:48:12 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Is there hope for New York Subways? posted by Andrew Byler on July 03, 1997 at 13:08:59: I whole-heartedly agree. However, what is it going to take to get politicians to own up to the fact that our system is now inadequate for the living patterns in New York? There are so many holes in the system no service to LaGuardia or Kennedy (direct), Mill Basin in Brooklyn, Staten Island, Bayside in Queens and Central Queens. What kills me is that there is funding and in some cases trackage available (the old Rockaway bypass on the A line) that could be utilized. Hey someone: wake up!!!
  - Subject: Re: Is there hope for New York Subways?
  - Message Number: 756408
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Sat Jul 5 18:41:52 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Is there hope for New York Subways? posted by Andrew Byler on July 03, 1997 at 13:08:59: While the subways deteriorated during the last forty years, the politicians had no difficulty building over 600 miles of limited access highways. Today, there is no political will to do anything relating to public service. Our subways will be improved and expanded when some future generation understands the need for infrastructure investment and the public demands it. I hope it happens in my lifetime.
    - Subject: Re: Is there hope for New York Subways?
    - Message Number: 756490
    - Posted by: Keranu
    - Date: Wed Jul 9 09:24:06 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Is there hope for New York Subways? posted by Andrew Byler on July 03, 1997 at 13:08:59: I totally agree with you, the NYC Subway "extensions" are unbelievably pathetic. The worrying thing is that the subway just keeps to be going downhill, I'm not just talking about closing lines or the deterioration of the system but little things such as the gradual removal of express services and the gradual reduction of the no. of routes using some lines. Also there are things like the whole Manhattan Bridge fiasco which I believe will never be resolved. Endlessly increasing fares. WHO IS IN CHARGE!!! GET WITH IT!!! The subway system is like an alien world, compare it to a modern one like Paris's. User friendly, complexity sorted out by EASY color coding and signs that are actually placed where you will see them. There is also none of this crap of lines passing over each other but not having a station so you can change lines (how the hell do you sort out that mess in Downtown Brooklyn). There WERE (and maybe still will be for a while) two things that separated NYC Subway from others around the world. 1) Size - Take a look at the map, it is mind-boggling to outsiders but look at expansion plans (ones that will actually happen, that is) of other systems and in terms of route length, another system will surely surpass NYC soon. 2) Express trains - this is a brilliant concept but is sadly dying out, am I the only one who believes that by about 2010, the only express lines will be in the main north-south routes in Manhattan (oh, wait a minute, what about N,R, already abandoned) and possibly a short section of Queens Blvd. Be prepared to say goodbye to skip-stop, if the subway keeps going on this way, it'll be a loooooooong ride to Washington Heights on the #1, rush hours included. The one-way express idea won't hold for much longer, the J/Z has finally bitten the dust, the 4 went ages ago, the Culver line. Franklin shuttle will close soon, I reckon. I frankly wouldn't be surprised if they tore down the J/M/Z, who's going to ride twenty-odd stops to Jamaica if they can zoom on the E instead? I know this is very pessimisstic but unless the MTA realises that people are being pushed towards the car and that this is very bad, the subway is also going to bite the dust. Lecture over (Sighs of relief resound)

Thread title: STCUM Metro depots (756348)
Started on Thu Jul 3 14:01:49 1997, by Ted Nielsen

Subject: STCUM Metro depots
Message Number: 756348
Posted by: Ted Nielsen
Date: Thu Jul 3 14:01:49 1997

Does anyone know where the Montreal Metro depots are located ? ( near what stations , how many are there , are they all underground ? ) I tried to get this question answered already but with no luck. thanks.

Thread title: WORKS NOW!!!(was Re: Second Picture Not Found! (Was Re: MORE R142 PICS)) (756349)
Started on Thu Jul 3 14:12:30 1997, by M.J.S.

Subject: WORKS NOW!!!(was Re: Second Picture Not Found! (Was Re: MORE R142 PICS))
Message Number: 756349
Posted by: M.J.S.
Date: Thu Jul 3 14:12:30 1997

In Reply to: [6]Second Picture Not Found! (Was Re: MORE R142 PICS) posted by Julio Perez on July 03, 1997 at 07:44:20: Try it now, I forgot to upload it the first time.

Thread title: Re: R Train JULY 4th NO 3 FARES from STATEN ISLAND (756354)
Started on Thu Jul 3 15:56:05 1997, by Lou

Subject: Re: R Train JULY 4th NO 3 FARES from STATEN ISLAND
Message Number: 756354
Posted by: Lou
Date: Thu Jul 3 15:56:05 1997

In Reply to: [5]R Train posted by jcooper on July 02, 1997 at 11:37:56: Please remember that on the 4th SIRT to the Ferry to the Subway will be ONE FARE ($1.50). As well as S59/S79 to the R and the express buses to the subway.

Thread title: Re: R Train Robert Moses (756355)
Started on Thu Jul 3 15:59:03 1997, by Lou

Subject: Re: R Train Robert Moses
Message Number: 756355
Posted by: Lou
Date: Thu Jul 3 15:59:03 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: R Train posted by John on July 03, 1997 at 14:12:53: Robert Moses desgined all a lot of the roadways in and out and around New York City/State. He hated Mass Transit but love the Parkway. (Why do you NOT Drive on a Driveway and Park on a Parkway??)

Thread title: Graffitti Is Here To Stay ??? (756358)
Started on Thu Jul 3 17:12:20 1997, by Garfield

Subject: Graffitti Is Here To Stay ???
Message Number: 756358
Posted by: Garfield
Date: Thu Jul 3 17:12:20 1997

I assume that everyone has noticed the difference between the subway cars of the 80's and what we have today. Forget about the air conditioning and musical chimes for the doors. The overall appearance of the cars both inside and out concerning graffitti. Back then you would have to worry if the seat you were about to sit on was dry after vandals did their artwork. There is a dramatic change. The T.A's whole fleet of subway cars literally had a big sign to vandals that said "Come and spray paint on my interior/exterior finish". Again, nowadays it's rare that you find a subway car in the system with graffitti to that nature. But now this "new" thing of scrathing the glass is upon us. There would be times where I would try to look out of a window outside and see a complete blur. My next question is how the T.A going to fight this problem. At first, the cars had this type of flexiglass as windows. Then the T.A decided to put regular glass but was to no help. So far they've won the battle on spray painting; but now it's "scratchitti".
- Subject: Re: Graffitti Is Here To Stay ???
- Message Number: 756366
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Thu Jul 3 21:48:29 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Graffitti Is Here To Stay ??? posted by Garfield on July 03, 1997 at 17:12:20: There are several measures now being tested. There are newer types of glass and replaceable protectice sheets over the glass. If all else faills, enthusiastic enforcement of the laws is always an option.
  - Subject: Re: Graffitti Is Here To Stay ???
  - Message Number: 756437
  - Posted by: ABSTRACT MINDES
  - Date: Mon Jul 7 15:49:11 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Graffitti Is Here To Stay ??? posted by Garfield on July 03, 1997 at 17:12:20: WHATS UP ITS ALL ABOUT WEST COAST
    - Subject: Re: Graffitti Is Here To Stay ???
    - Message Number: 756438
    - Posted by: ABSTRACT MINDES
    - Date: Mon Jul 7 15:50:28 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Graffitti Is Here To Stay ??? posted by Garfield on July 03, 1997 at 17:12:20: WHATS UP ITS ALL ABOUT WEST COAST CALIFORNIA AEM CREW

Thread title: Toronto Subway Expansion (756364)
Started on Thu Jul 3 18:41:40 1997, by Brian W

Subject: Toronto Subway Expansion
Message Number: 756364
Posted by: Brian W
Date: Thu Jul 3 18:41:40 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: TTC and STCUM (This is the Toronto one) posted by Bingo on June 28, 1997 at 13:30:41: Well, after a week and a bit, I'm finally back!!! My modem was bombed by lightning during a wicked thunderstorm, and has now been replaced. Anyway, I have a lot to say. The current TTC subway expansion strategy indicates that once the Sheppard line is complete, the next step will be to build an Eglinton West Subway (YES!!), extend the Spadina line from Downsview to York University (GOOD THINKING), and extend the Scarborough RT up to Sheppard Ave. (WAIT A SEC...). Now why in the HELL would they want to waste money extending the Scarborough RT up to Sheppard when what the system really needs is a station at Yonge/Steeles? I live in that area and, trust me, the traffic is choking Yonge St. Whenever I go downtown, the Steeles West bus becomes an integral part of my trip. Since there's no Steeles station, the bus has to go down Yonge to Finch station. It is joined by all the other buses that go into the station, like Steeles East, Yonge, Drewry, Cummer, not to mention Finch West, Finch East, and all the buses from other systems, like Vaughan Transit, Markham Transit, and GO Transit. With all this bus activity using the stretch of Yonge Street from Steeles to Finch, traffic is HELL. If they made a simple Steeles subway station, this problem would be resolved.
- Subject: Re: Toronto Subway Expansion
- Message Number: 756478
- Posted by: Bingo
- Date: Tue Jul 8 20:31:04 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Toronto Subway Expansion posted by Brian W on July 03, 1997 at 18:41:40: Vaughan, GO, Mississauga, Brampton, and Markham Transit go to a separate boarding area on Bishop Ave. I agree that the traffic on Bishop gets very congested with the taxis, TTC buses and the other transit systems fighting with the regular traffic, but here are my three reasons why TTC can't put a station up at Steeles. 1) No money. Were paying for the Sheppard line and the Bloor-Danforth line at the moment 2) There is no land free up at Yonge and Steeles. With a mall taking up one whole corner, and with the Thornhill lands being untouchable (amalgamated cities bullshit) we only have one corner to work with, which is way too narrow for a subway station and too close to a residential area. 3) Why? With the Metro area fighting for amalgamated transit, everything will become more of a hell than usual anyway. Relax and enjoy it.

Thread title: NYC Subway in 2020 (756367)
Started on Thu Jul 3 21:52:19 1997, by Michael Adler

Subject: NYC Subway in 2020
Message Number: 756367
Posted by: Michael Adler
Date: Thu Jul 3 21:52:19 1997

Wondering what NYC Subway will be like in the year of 2020? do you think older els will still be there (like J/Z line in Bklyn & Qns, etc...) and how much do you think the fare will be? Michael Adler Lakewood, ColorFUL Colorado Former Jackson Hgts resident
- Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020
- Message Number: 756426
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Mon Jul 7 09:07:00 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]NYC Subway in 2020 posted by Michael Adler on July 03, 1997 at 21:52:19: My prediction is that the Second Avenue Subway will begin service that year, and that the ... uh, wait a minute, you asked about 2020, not 3020!
  - Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020
  - Message Number: 756435
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Mon Jul 7 14:55:09 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]NYC Subway in 2020 posted by Michael Adler on July 03, 1997 at 21:52:19: The NYC Subway in the year 2020 ...well, let's see .... Fare: Zoned fares. Each borough is roughly one zone. Stay withon one zone and the fare is $2.00. Each zone requires an additional 30 cents. The Rockaways is also considered a zone, but only an additional 15 cents south of Broad Channel. Free bus/subway and bus/bus and subway/subway transfers continue with the MetroSmart Card. No swiping. Hold card upto "reader" and walk through gate. No token booths, either. Not much will have changed in the system itself. Here's what would be different as compared to now: - 21st - Queensbridge connection with Queens Blvd Subway. The Q line runs from Brighton Beach, express via Brighton, over south side of Manhattan Bridge, now open for only 3 years, via Broadway Express to 57th St, then via 63rd St, then local in Queens to 179th St. No change to current E and F routes. R train all times to 179th St via local. New Y train from 2nd Ave Manhattan via 6th Ave express and 63rd St tunnel, to 179th St running express from 21st - Queensbridge to 179th St. - The NORTH side of the Manhattan Bridge is closed for the same reason the south side was closed. Construction is expected to run until the year 2037. Estimated price tag is in the tens of billions of dollars. Election year issue is whether to build a new bridge and knock down the Manhattan Bridge. Reroutings as follows: B, current route from Coney Island, skips Dekalb, uses South side of Manhattan Bridge, then local to 57th St - 7th Ave, then local to Ditmars Blvd, Astoria. Additional C service on 8th Ave to make up the deficit of the lack of B train when the B train used to run. D, current route from Coney Island to Dekalb Ave, then via new connection to Rutgers St tunnel (F) built north of York Street in anticipation of the bridge crisis, local from Dekalb Ave through this tunnel to W 4 St, then current route to 205th St. Mayor Walter Jones wins another term overwhelmingly by a public very satisfied by the completion of this tunneling project, which was done in 4 years and under budget. F - current routing. N - original routing from early 80s but still terminating at Ditmars Blvd. Second Avenue subway contruction resumed in 2017 (it took THAT long!) but was stopped in early 2020 for the same reason it stopped in the early '70s. Lack of $$$$$. Section from 63rd St - Lexington Ave to 96th St - 2nd Ave was built. Stations completed between 63rd and 96th. Plan to start shuttle service from 63rd & Lexington to 96th & 2nd connecting with Q and Y trains in June 2020. The hope is to connect the sections of route between 99th and 120th (the connection between 107th and 110th st was made in 2018) to 96th St in 2 years. All construction used shield tunneling so 2nd ave traffic would not be disrupted. Let's see - the Els .... - Brighton in good shape after muti-million dollar revamp in 2011 - 2014. - West End in OK shape. - Jamaica El - slow speed order from Alabama Av - Crescent St. R32s still providing service, though new lightweight R-319s (300 of them) are expected in service next year to replace the R32s which went through another major overhaul in the late 00's and early teens. MTA New York City Transportation (a reorganized NYC Transit, NYC Bus, etc) not yet committed to fate of this part of EL, in the worst shape of the subway system, almost as bad as the Franklin Ave shuttle in the late 1990s. Rest of EL in OK shape. - All IRT ELs in the Bronx are holding up surprisingly well. IRT ELs in Brooklyn are found structurally deficient but safe. - Franklin Ave shuttle overhaul completed in 1999. Track and sturctures in good shape. Ridership on line increases because of a building revival in the served area. MTA discussing possibility of part time direct service to Coney Island from Franklin Ave during summer months (shades of the 1950s!) due to Coney Island's revival as a summer destination spot as a result of the opening of the Gates & Allen Amusement Area and the Guiliani Exposition Pavilion in 2016. - Elevated from Myrtle Av/Broadway to Metropolitan Ave in reasonable shape; however, M service cut back to Wyckoff Ave during non rush-hours for EL rehab. Cab signalling instituted on Lexington Ave lines 4,5 & 6 providing additional capacity to a trunk line in dire need of relief. Suspension of 2nd Ave subway again is not handled well by the public because of the severe overcrowding on the Lex. Even after all this, the NYC subway is a 24 hour operation. --Mark (who had to curtail his imagination at this point)
    - Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020
    - Message Number: 756441
    - Posted by: Garfield
    - Date: Mon Jul 7 17:12:48 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 posted by Peter Rosa on July 07, 1997 at 09:07:00: I don't think the J/Z line will cut my the MTA. If anyone who has been riding the line for the past week or so, must of noticed that they are servicing the station. But a few times on my way home, I've noticed that it looks like they are possibly extending the stations. I saw thick steel beams measuring the same height and width of the station's platform. Is it possible that the trains are being extended from 8 cars to 10 cars ????
      - Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020
      - Message Number: 756445
      - Posted by: subway-buff
      - Date: Mon Jul 7 18:40:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 posted by Garfield on July 07, 1997 at 17:12:48: Sorry to disappoint you but the steel beams are for lighting upgrades. They are finally removing the non-working incandescent (regular screw in bulbs with reverse threads from the stop after Marcy to and including E. Pkwy.(which will also habve the L platforms upgraded.) I just rode that section today. They are doing the same for the 2/5 IRT in the Bronx which may be done by 2300! (They said 12/96, then 3/97 and now no date!). The steel beams are for wiring for the new lights.i
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020
        Message Number: 756451
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Jul 7 20:29:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 posted by Mark S Feinman on July 07, 1997 at 14:55:09: Very interesting. It all sounds plausible too. You shuld apply for a job in Operations Planning...
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020
        Message Number: 756457
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Tue Jul 8 10:18:01 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 posted by Steve on July 07, 1997 at 20:29:40: Cool! And to think I thought I was just a frustrated writer ..... (where do I sign up? :-)) --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020
        Message Number: 756474
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Tue Jul 8 19:26:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 posted by Mark S Feinman on July 08, 1997 at 10:18:01: 370 Jay Street in the Information Center on the first floor. Most open jobs (except for the Civil Service Titles) are posted there.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020
        Message Number: 756491
        Posted by: Keranu
        Date: Wed Jul 9 10:11:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]NYC Subway in 2020 posted by Michael Adler on July 03, 1997 at 21:52:19: NYC Subway in 2020 ================== Following the infamous flame-thrower incident at Crescent St station where Falkes Hoseby (cultivated from Martian dust found on pathfinder) blew up an empty J train at 2am "for the fun of it", the MTA designates the J/Z line a disaster area and uses this as its excuse for closing it down. Exposed memo shows that this had actually been planned 23 years ago in 1997. Linguistic evolution means that Express is now spelt with only one 's' "Expres". The transit museum is burned down by a protester against the planned skyscraper development miles away in Long Island City (don't ask me why, maybe she got lost) and is reopened as Court Street Subway station. Commuters wait for 39 hours on the opening day (and the following day) before realising that no trains were ever actually scheduled to serve the station though the station would be open 24 hours a day for vandalism purposes and as simulator for what it used to be like to wait for the Franklin shuttle back in the 'teens (2013-2019). The new MTA director claims that voices told him to cook the remaining funds and serve it at the company dinner with beetroot garnish. In March that year, a woman collapses and dies after looking at a subway map, subsequently subway maps are classed as a "lethal weapon" and all of them burned to avoid any further situations. In April, vertical loops are added at various points along the old J/Z tracks and the worlds first A to B roller coaster is opened whereby residents of Jamaica Center area are able to take a roller coaster all the way to the Brooklyn side of the Williamsburg Bridge. The roller coaster is named "The J train". In June, the greatest subway disaster ever occurs when a subway train spontaneously bursts in a tunnel under the East River. The train was carrying six times its capacity at the time after budget cuts forced the MTA to run two-car trains on the Queens Boulevard line at the hour on the hour. Another disaster later that month as a greenfly lands on one of the tracks on Manhattan Bridge causing it to collapse. About a thousand cars and a B train plunge into the sea. Another budget cut means the MTA closes the Lexington Av line, the 4 now terminates at 125 St and the 5 now runs on Broadway with the 1,2&3. The Pelham line is also closed. Staff strike at pay cuts. A settlement is reached when all staff are expelled (excluding drivers) and squirrels are employed. A soar in the number complaints about inadequate signing in stations forces the MTA to take down the old signs and put up new ones. The squirrels were not able to put up new signs, however, leaving stations signless. Commuters realise that squirrels cannot speak English or Spanish and token sales plummet. In August, it was decided that budget conditions meant that squirrels were too expensive and one member of human staff was re-employed who visited all the stations periodically selling tokens. Later that month it is decided that this system is unworkable and an immobile token stall is set up in Times Square. September, one car trains now operate once every 60 minutes on all lines except the G which is abandoned. Commuters squeezed into trains or prevented from entering stations. October, further budget cuts mean that all train service is withdrawn and drivers sacked. 60 exercise instructors jog passengers down subway tunnels to their destinations. Advertisements for super-human to do the A train express route appear around the city. Later, one instructor collapses from exhaustion, shuttle services and locals now only permitted. MTA's budget investigated, it turns out that it currently only $4 million a year of which $3.999 million is subtracted before any spending on the subway/jog-tunnel system. MTA's newer director is putting on weight, now 30 stone (420 pounds, I think). December, the subway is closed and pumped full of water, worlds greatest water adventure park opened. Speedboats allowed in most tunnels. Christmas Day, multiple pile up of speed boats near Times Square, boating in passageways banned, tunnels only now. 18 year old talks of her 10 mile water slide trip in the old Lexington Av tunnel. December 31, 2020, first underwater shop opens in what used to be Christopher St station on the #1 line.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020
        Message Number: 756495
        Posted by: John
        Date: Wed Jul 9 13:30:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 posted by Keranu on July 09, 1997 at 10:11:51: In 2020, the Transit Authority will cut service down to the bare minimum. The #5 train will be cut down to a mere shuttle between Dyre Avenue and E.180th St. The #6 will also be cut back to a shuttle between Pelham Bay Park and 125th St. and Pelham Express service will be discontinued. The #4 will be the only remaining line to operate on Lexington Avenue and it will be a split between local and express (local will be marked "4L", express will be marked "4X"). The route of the #4 will stay the same, but will operate to New Lots at all times. The #3 will be eliminated and the 148 and 145th St. stations will be abandoned. The #2 will stay the same, likewise the #1. The #9 will be eliminated. The Times Square shuttle will be eliminated; passengers will have to use the #7 for crosstown transfers. The #7 Flushing Express will be eliminated. The C train will be eliminated. The A will be a split between local and express (local will be AL, express will be AX). The Lefferts Boulivard branch will be abandoned, as well as the Rockaway Park branch. Rockaway Shuttle service will be discontinued. E service will remain the same. The B will remain the same, but will not go to Queensbridge. It will only go up to 168th. The Queens Blvd. connection will have been abandoned during construction, and the Second Avenue Subway still would not have been touched. The South Side of the Manhattan Bridge will still be closed, but the Q will be switched back to Broadway. The D will stay the same, but express service in the Bronx will be discontinued. The Q will operate express on Broadway, from Queensbridge to DeKalb Avenue (it will not go onto the Brighton Line). The Franklin Shuttle will be abandoned. The F will remain the same, but will operate local in Queens. The N will remain the same, but express service in Brooklyn will be discontinued. The R will be cut back to Queens Plaza. The G will also be cut back to Queens Plaza. The E will stay the same. The J train will remain the same. The Z will be eliminated, and the M will remain a shuttle between Myrtle and Metropolitan. The Transit Authority is considering abandoning the Myrtle Avenue El altogether and thus, eliminating the M. The L will remain the same.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020
        Message Number: 756496
        Posted by: John
        Date: Wed Jul 9 13:51:22 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 posted by John on July 09, 1997 at 13:30:38: As for the equipment, the R142 will have taken the exact place where the mainline Redbirds operated (all of the #2, some #4, all #5, some #6). The mainline Redbirds will have been retired, but the #7 will remain an exclusive-Redbird line. The R-134 will have replaced the R-40s and R-42s, but all the other cars will remain in service.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020
        Message Number: 756498
        Posted by: Huaxianija Xoataualja
        Date: Wed Jul 9 16:00:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 posted by Keranu on July 09, 1997 at 10:11:51: Subway 2020 very different. Each commuter encased in personal transport module (PTM). PTM go very fast, deducting from commuter personal debit account (CPDA)each 1/10 of mile. PTM eject commuter onto platform, now called commuter receiving area (CRA). No trains, just many PTM zipping along tracks, PTM have stereo, video, no crime, no bums, no smell of other passenger, no urine puddles. Commuter now happy!!
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020
        Message Number: 756499
        Posted by: Charles
        Date: Wed Jul 9 21:53:26 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 posted by Keranu on July 09, 1997 at 10:11:51: I regret to inform those of you who have already responded to NYC Subway in 2020 that you are pesimistic who need to see an obvous reality. The MTA Board and all of the "people" whom run this system are subject to change. E. Virgil Conway, Lawerence Reuter etc.. Will change when government changes. I don't think that ANYTHING including the Franklin Shuttle is going to be torn down. Ridership is up, crime is down. I do not deny that I am seeing problems now. Defered matinence is becoming more and more prevelant. NYCT also needs to take a look at the way that they are treating their own employees. The system is far from perfect, but it is better than it was in the late 70's and early 80's. THE SYSTEM WILL NEVER DIE. It can crumble but New Yorkers will make sure that the subway, the main artery for NYC Survives the reign of incompetent politicans. The car will be superior to the subway until the city invests in the technology to update this system to the standards of other systems such as washington Metro....
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020
        Message Number: 756500
        Posted by: Charles
        Date: Wed Jul 9 22:04:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 posted by Keranu on July 09, 1997 at 10:11:51: I regret to inform those of you who have already responded to NYC Subway in 2020 that you are over dramitic and have a pesimistic attitude who need to see an obvous reality. The MTA Board and all of the "people" whom run this system are subject to change. E. Virgil Conway, Lawerence Reuter etc these people are all temporary.. Will change when government changes. I don't think that ANYTHING including the Franklin Shuttle is going to be torn down. Ridership is up, crime is down. While expansion of the system is unrealistic, the sixty-third st. tunnel will get finished. Second Avenue, Sadly this will never happen. Station Rehabs improve the system, and I believe that we have come a long way. The R110 tech trains are a precursor to a new generation of equipment. Quieter more efficent than some of the lemons today such as the R40's. I am a fan of history, but in some cases history must make way for efficence, reliability, and a lack of capital I do not deny that I am seeing problems now. Defered matinence is becoming more and more prevelant. NYCT also needs to take a look at the way that they are treating their own employees. The system is far from perfect, but it is better than it was in the late 70's and early 80's. THE SYSTEM WILL NEVER DIE. It can crumble but New Yorkers will make sure that the subway, the main artery for NYC Survives the reign of incompetent politicans. The car will be superior to the subway until the city invests in the technology to update this system to the standards of other systems such as washington Metro The J/Z lines are going nowhere, Though the line needs major structural work.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020
        Message Number: 756502
        Posted by: Charles
        Date: Wed Jul 9 22:05:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 posted by Keranu on July 09, 1997 at 10:11:51: I regret to inform those of you who have already responded to NYC Subway in 2020 that you are over dramitic and have a pesimistic attitude who need to see an obvous reality. The MTA Board and all of the "heads" whom run this system are subject to change. E. Virgil Conway, Lawerence Reuter etc these people are all temporary.. They will change when government changes. I don't think that ANYTHING including the Franklin Shuttle is going to be torn down. Ridership is up, crime is down. While expansion of the system is unrealistic, the sixty-third st. tunnel will get finished. Second Avenue, Sadly this will never happen. Station Rehabs improve the system, and I believe that we have come a long way. The R110 tech trains are a precursor to a new generation of equipment. Quieter more efficent than some of the lemons today such as the R40's. I am a fan of history, but in some cases history must make way for efficence, reliability, and a lack of capital I do not deny that I am seeing problems now. Defered matinence is becoming more and more prevelant. NYCT also needs to take a look at the way that they are treating their own employees. The system is far from perfect, but it is better than it was in the late 70's and early 80's. THE SYSTEM WILL NEVER DIE. It can crumble but New Yorkers will make sure that the subway, the main artery for NYC Survives the reign of incompetent politicans. The car will be superior to the subway until the city invests in the technology to update this system to the standards of other systems such as washington Metro The J/Z lines are going nowhere, Though the line needs major structural work.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020
        Message Number: 756671
        Posted by: Joe Camel
        Date: Tue Jul 15 00:04:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 posted by Peter Rosa on July 07, 1997 at 09:07:00: 3020! We have a very over-optimistic person on our hands.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020
        Message Number: 756768
        Posted by: Zack
        Date: Wed Jul 23 01:37:34 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 posted by John on July 09, 1997 at 13:51:22: the subway in 2020 will be FULLY atomated. including fare collection atomated trains. the stations&cars will have grated floors allowing the urine to flow freeley threw the floor and to clean the station open up a high pressure water pipe turn off the electrisity and flush away. the J/Z line will by that time will be re built with concrete and paid for by coca cola and you will see new redbirds looking like big coca cola cans.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020
        Message Number: 756770
        Posted by: John
        Date: Wed Jul 23 23:01:28 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 posted by Zack on July 23, 1997 at 01:37:34: What about silver trains with red stripes that look like Diet Coke cans :-)
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020
        Message Number: 756783
        Posted by: Charles
        Date: Mon Jul 28 07:40:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 posted by Zack on July 23, 1997 at 01:37:34: I have been reading other peoples responses to Subway 2020. I had expressed some interest in certain views. Now I am Stating mine. Changes: The Manhattan Bridge will be closed down for the next five years on both sides while the bridge undergoes major overhaul work. The Willamsburg Bridge will have been declared structurally un-sound and will be closed to all subway traffic for an indefinite amount of time. The TA has already replaced the R28,29,33,36,32,40,40M,42,44s The R62s, R62As R68s and R68As are undergoing the first general overhaul. The R110Bs are in OPTO Shuttle Service on the Newly rebuilt Franklin Avenue Shuttle. The R110As are in OPTO Shuttle service on the Dyre Avenue Shuttle. The R62s are also being overhauled. There are no more commuter railroads of seperate entities, the commuter railroads, subways , and buses have been combined to form one agency MTA New York State Commuter systems. Which replaces the MTA. NYCT, LIRR MNR NYC BUS LI BUS and Card Company The MTA Has relinguished control of bridges and tunnels over to the city. the Bridges and tunnels now go into a state of deffered maintenence. OPTO is expanded to the R Shuttle. All trains are cut in half to four or five cars on midnights as a crime prevention method. After the city admits to having removed police from the subways the TA gets its own police force. The New Agency created is MTA NYS transit Police. A congleramate of MN PD And LIRR Police. Signal System is updated to 21st. Centry Technology. All Stations are rebuilt or rehabillitated. 50 Percent of New York City Residents are Now traveling by subway The Token has been completely replaced by Metrocard. Discounts and free transfers are offered, though the fare is now up to $2.50 Metrocard is now used in PATH. MNR & LIRR Offers discount tickets to subway & Bus Riders using metrocard Tunnels are going to replace the ill fated manhattan bridge as will as the williamsburg bridge. The Stations between 59 Street and Stillwell avenue on the sea beach have been renovated similar to the Beverly Road Station on the brighton line. Construction is slated to begin on the 2/5 extention down flatbush Avenue through to marine park. Plans for tunnel to connect R train to MTA SIR are underway 6 train derails destroying the sound proof glass installed by the NYTM at the city hall station Vacuum train the seventh version is again being sent back once again to france due excesseve derailments the second avenue subway plan has been deemed to costly the plan is once again put on hold in definitley The subway will continue to be open 24 hrs a day.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020
        Message Number: 756784
        Posted by: NO TUNNEL
        Date: Mon Jul 28 23:54:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 posted by Charles on July 28, 1997 at 07:40:11: How can the SIR-Subway tunnel be built while the Second Avenue Subway isn't?
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020
        Message Number: 756793
        Posted by: charles
        Date: Wed Jul 30 08:57:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 posted by NO TUNNEL on July 28, 1997 at 23:54:21: A tunnel to Staten Island could open up Staten Island to the rest of NYC. If this could be done the economy of this city would improve.

Thread title: AC Propulsion on the C line (756368)
Started on Thu Jul 3 22:03:27 1997, by Todd

Subject: AC Propulsion on the C line
Message Number: 756368
Posted by: Todd
Date: Thu Jul 3 22:03:27 1997

The TA has begun testing AC propulsion on the C Line. 8 R-38 cars, numbered 4040 - 4047 are now in service on the C line. They will run during AM to PM hours Mon.-Fri. during a 1 year test. They will be identified by a 'RED DIAMOND' under the car number.

Thread title: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997 (756372)
Started on Thu Jul 3 23:01:45 1997, by David Pirmann

Subject: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997
Message Number: 756372
Posted by: David Pirmann
Date: Thu Jul 3 23:01:45 1997

I just heard this-- a southbound A train has derailed near 135th St. Station. Apparently the rear few cars somehow derailed, probably on one of the four switches between 145th St. and 135th St. The report says that at least one car was completely totalled and sheared off a number of support columns between the tracks. The EMS report says that about 6 people were injured, no one killed. The power is off on the 8th Avenue line between 168th Street and at least 125th Street. All other trains in the area are being evacuated. Therefore there is no service on the A, B, C, D lines. From looking at the track maps I would say service is suspended above 59th or 72nd street at minimum.
- Subject: Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997
- Message Number: 756373
- Posted by: Zack
- Date: Thu Jul 3 23:30:07 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997 posted by David Pirmann on July 03, 1997 at 23:01:45: what type of cars were they,was it in the subway or above ground, and are there any pictures????
  - Subject: Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997
  - Message Number: 756375
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Fri Jul 4 00:12:19 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997 posted by Zack on July 03, 1997 at 23:30:07: Don't know what kind of cars. Either R44 or R38 presumably. The 8th Avenue line is in subway at that point (and in fact, all the way to it's northern terminals). No pictures -- no newscrews are allowed downstairs yet.
    - Subject: Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997
    - Message Number: 756376
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Fri Jul 4 00:36:28 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997 posted by David Pirmann on July 04, 1997 at 00:12:19: 21:41 A derailed at 135th Street. R-44s were involved. The last 2 were very heavily damaged. Looks like the last car picked a switch @ 135th Street on A3 track.
      - Subject: Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997
      - Message Number: 756387
      - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
      - Date: Fri Jul 4 13:20:10 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997 posted by Steve on July 04, 1997 at 00:36:28: This type of wreck seems to be among the more frequent and destructive. I know that with ATO in Boston speed limits are reduced while passing over some switches, with a resultant slowing of run times. Hopefully this won't happen in NYC as a result of these wrecks. Two possible causes come to mind, broken rails or a broken axle on a car. Either of these are virtually impossible to prevent aince they often happen spontaneously. Thank God for no fatalities this time. One question though: Would a 'black rail' in an appropriate location have prevented these cars from wandering so far from the 4'8.5", maybe reducing damage? Gerry
        
        Subject: Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997
        Message Number: 756397
        Posted by: Mark Greenwald
        Date: Fri Jul 4 23:47:17 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997 posted by Gerry O'Regan on July 04, 1997 at 13:20:10: this was the same type of wreck the killed a couple of people on the DC Metro's Orange/Blue Lines between Federal Triangle & Smithsonian--the car literally bent in two from the concrete wall seperating the two tracks. The thing that made this crash so memorable was that it happened on a cold, snowy January afternoon when federal workers were let off work early due to the bad weather--which---consequently was the cause of an Air Florida jet crashing into the 14th St. bridge (Near the Pentagon) about 30 minutes earlier----Rescue squads from bothe DC & Virginia were so strained that squads from Maryland had to be called in to fill the void
        
        Subject: Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997
        Message Number: 756428
        Posted by: Lou
        Date: Mon Jul 7 10:25:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997 posted by David Pirmann on July 03, 1997 at 23:01:45: Although there is no official cause yet, dosen't this sound like the 1927 Times Square wreck (i.e. a switch malfunctioning in the middle of the train??? At least this happened in the middle of a holiday weekend,and noone got hurt seriously.Any comments???
        
        Subject: Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997
        Message Number: 756432
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Jul 7 13:31:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997 posted by Lou on July 07, 1997 at 10:25:43: As you said, there has been no 'OFFICAIL' determination yet so no comment other than to say there will likely be no suprises here. We'll just have to wait until the NTSB does its' investigation.
        
        Subject: Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997
        Message Number: 756440
        Posted by: Garfield
        Date: Mon Jul 7 17:00:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997 posted by Lou on July 07, 1997 at 10:25:43: Sometimes I wonder how on earth do these trains keep on the tracks. I ride the Queens Blvd line (F)express which does at least 40 to maybe 45 miles at some point and still after all the rocking from side to side and up and down, still keeps it's wheels and flangs on the rails. Besides the F, I've rode the Lexington(4,5) and 7th Ave line(2,3) and think those trains do even more speed than the Queens Blvd line.
        
        Subject: Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997
        Message Number: 756443
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Jul 7 17:28:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997 posted by Garfield on July 07, 1997 at 17:00:20: Yup, before going to "full field shunting" most of the cars would do 50 - 55 MPH. and even more on the flats out to the Rockaways.

Thread title: R142 Picture (756386)
Started on Fri Jul 4 12:07:07 1997, by M.J.S.

Subject: R142 Picture
Message Number: 756386
Posted by: M.J.S.
Date: Fri Jul 4 12:07:07 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: R142 and 143 Pics (WORKING LINK TO SAME PIC) posted by subway-buff on July 04, 1997 at 10:29:45: The reason picture B is not appearing is that I've been having problems uploading to GeoCities. BTW, neither link works now

Thread title: private intrenst (756389)
Started on Fri Jul 4 19:07:22 1997, by Zack

Subject: private intrenst
Message Number: 756389
Posted by: Zack
Date: Fri Jul 4 19:07:22 1997

why doesent NYCTA bring big bisness into the picture. they could trade advertisements on cars and in sattions for money to help build the subway and when building ro re-building the subway they could make it atomated and a standard with then it currently is. and give tax breaks as incentives
- Subject: Re: private intrenst
- Message Number: 756392
- Posted by: Nathan
- Date: Fri Jul 4 19:45:16 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]private intrenst posted by Zack on July 04, 1997 at 19:07:22: Automation would be expensive...
  - Subject: Re: private intrenst
  - Message Number: 756399
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Sat Jul 5 00:25:17 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]private intrenst posted by Zack on July 04, 1997 at 19:07:22: It has and is being done. Part of the fiscal recovery plan of the MTA involved corporations purchasing rolling stock and leasing the cars to the TA. Some of the R-68 fleet is actually leased. The companies get some income and a large tax write-off for their investment.
    - Subject: Re: private intrenst
    - Message Number: 756405
    - Posted by: John
    - Date: Sat Jul 5 14:59:58 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: private intrenst posted by Nathan on July 04, 1997 at 19:45:16: It was done with the Times Square shuttle (I forgot the exact years - sometime in the 1960s, I think), but the train was destroyed in a fire and automation was never attempted after that.

Thread title: Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997(pictures( (756390)
Started on Fri Jul 4 19:30:09 1997, by Nathan

Subject: Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997(pictures(
Message Number: 756390
Posted by: Nathan
Date: Fri Jul 4 19:30:09 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997 posted by Zack on July 03, 1997 at 23:30:07: That would be a good photo tour on this site, NYC Train-Wrecks... :)
- Subject: Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997(pictures(
- Message Number: 756396
- Posted by: Mark Greenwald
- Date: Fri Jul 4 23:40:13 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997(pictures( posted by Nathan on July 04, 1997 at 19:30:09: The book "Uptown/Downtown" has a section specifically dedicated to subway wrecks
  - Subject: Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997(pictures(
  - Message Number: 756420
  - Posted by: Nathan
  - Date: Mon Jul 7 00:49:11 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997(pictures( posted by Mark Greenwald on July 04, 1997 at 23:40:13: Who writes and publishes it?

Thread title: Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - Update (756400)
Started on Sat Jul 5 00:33:54 1997, by Steve

Subject: Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - Update
Message Number: 756400
Posted by: Steve
Date: Sat Jul 5 00:33:54 1997

In Reply to: [5]A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997 posted by David Pirmann on July 03, 1997 at 23:01:45: After almost 22 hours of around-the-clock work, service was restored on the A,C, and D lines through 135th St. Car #5282 had to be cut up as it was damaged beyond any hope of repair. The train was proceeding south on A3 track when the trailing truck of car 5282, for an undetermined reason 'picked' a switch' and went down A5 track (a spur). The car hit a wall between the two tracks and split in half.
- Subject: Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - Update
- Message Number: 756421
- Posted by: Nathan
- Date: Mon Jul 7 00:50:48 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - Update posted by Steve on July 05, 1997 at 00:33:54: That car was empty, was it not? (I got a pretty groovy picture from the newspaper of it...)
  - Subject: Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - Update
  - Message Number: 756425
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Mon Jul 7 03:45:04 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - Update posted by Nathan on July 07, 1997 at 00:50:48: Fortunately for all concerned, the car was empty

Thread title: R-32 (756406)
Started on Sat Jul 5 15:13:13 1997, by John

Subject: R-32
Message Number: 756406
Posted by: John
Date: Sat Jul 5 15:13:13 1997

Will the Transit Authority start retiring the R-32s and R-38s once the new equipment arrives? I don't think they should, because, even after being in service for over 30 years, they are still running nicely and they don't look that old.
- Subject: Re: R-32
- Message Number: 756407
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Sat Jul 5 17:52:37 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]R-32 posted by John on July 05, 1997 at 15:13:13: It is more likely that the R-40 slants will be the first to go.

Thread title: Joint NJT/LIRR Ticketing- Update (756409)
Started on Sat Jul 5 19:36:49 1997, by Subway-buff

Subject: Joint NJT/LIRR Ticketing- Update
Message Number: 756409
Posted by: Subway-buff
Date: Sat Jul 5 19:36:49 1997

This message is an update to my message last week on this subject. I got an e-mail from NJT (New Jersey Transit) advising me that they are "studying additional joint ticketing." I sugegsted to them that they joint ticket LIRR to Jamaica.

Thread title: CTA FARE Card system/comparison to metro card (756410)
Started on Sat Jul 5 23:15:23 1997, by Chicago EL Man

Subject: CTA FARE Card system/comparison to metro card
Message Number: 756410
Posted by: Chicago EL Man
Date: Sat Jul 5 23:15:23 1997

Is the NYC Metro card like the CTA's new fare card? This new card can be used in any turnstile or in any bus fare box. They are sold at all CTA stations and can be used by up to seven people. You must know how much you want on it and it will deduct a transfer charge if used again in less then two hours. Third ride in two hours is free. We also have a transfer card which is the same, except it is good for two transfers in two hours. One more question, are you guys able to use transfers on the route you started on? They aproved that in April here. And for every 13.50 another free 1.50 is added.( The cost of one fare for free). Also, doesn't the turnstile tell you how much is left on the card after you use it? It does here!
- Subject: Re: CTA FARE Card system/comparison to metro card
- Message Number: 756412
- Posted by: John
- Date: Sun Jul 6 00:32:25 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]CTA FARE Card system/comparison to metro card posted by Chicago EL Man on July 05, 1997 at 23:15:23: It sounds like the CTA card and the MetroCard are very much the same. There are only some minor differences. The Metrocard can be used by only four people at a time. Also, there is no transfer charge (the Metrocard allows you free transfers between subway and bus/vice versa, and bus to bus. The transfers are free only if you use the card within two hours). You cannot get a free transfer to the line you started on and you cannot get a free transfer from subway to subway (if you exit the system and re-enter it. Otherwise, free transfers between subway lines can be made at appropriate connecting stations). And yes, the turnstile and bus fare box displays the remaining amount on the card.
  - Subject: Re: CTA FARE Card system/comparison to metro card
  - Message Number: 756465
  - Posted by: aaron
  - Date: Tue Jul 8 13:53:24 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]CTA FARE Card system/comparison to metro card posted by Chicago EL Man on July 05, 1997 at 23:15:23: Challenge. I was in Chicago last week and attempted to purchase a card at Howard Street. I was sent to the currency exchange next door. The next day I boarded the Red Line at Belmont with my wife. The system deducted two fares, but when I returned less than two hours later at Chicago Avenue, the system took off 30 cents (correct) for the first swipe and $1.50 for the second swipe(incorrect). I was told it was good for up to four passengers. When I got back to Belmont, there was no place to buy or complain about the problem. The New York card works better, though you can't reverse ride or get a volume discount yet. Once the bugs have been worked out, the Chicago system should be as good as New York.
    - Subject: Re: CTA FARE Card system/comparison to metro card
    - Message Number: 756756
    - Posted by: Brian from Chicago
    - Date: Thu Jul 17 23:04:46 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: CTA FARE Card system/comparison to metro card posted by aaron on July 08, 1997 at 13:53:24: You did the wrong thing! you should have told the station agent at Chicago that the second transfer wasn't free like it was suppost to be and was 1.50. The Station agent at Belmont couldn't do anything for you, he might have thought you were lying. Also, Did you have another .30 on it besides the 1.50? This shouldn't have effected it, but might. For all complaints like this, you should call 1-888-your-CTA. They want to know problems so they can fix them Did you know that there is an experimental 5 dollar visitors pass starting in July 1997 ( Already started) for unlimited rides on all CTA Trains and busses for one 24 hour period.

Thread title: The Inefficient MTA (756413)
Started on Sun Jul 6 12:53:14 1997, by JC

Subject: The Inefficient MTA
Message Number: 756413
Posted by: JC
Date: Sun Jul 6 12:53:14 1997

Want to know why people dispise the MTA and revile the unions? Here's an example. Going home from a party on the fourth, I had a long trip from the upper west side to Greenpoint. At that time, the A train was still out of service due to the derailment. I hopped on the 2, which was right there at 96th Street, then walked over to the E and 42nd/Times Square. Noting that the G was on a weekend schedule (Court Square is the terminus for northbound trains), I walked to the end of the platform at 42nd Street, caught the E, then walked another long corridor at Court Square. So far, so good. Travel time was an incredible 20 minutes to Court Square. Then, the first G train came into Court Square, but it wasn't terminating. it was heading for 179th Street in Queens. Great! I could have changed travel plans if I knew that was happening. Well, then we waited another 30 minutes and a G showed up again, bound for 179th Street. And then, 20 minutes later, the same. There was no southbound service for some reason, and no one knew anything about it. Finally, a southbound G showed up, an hour and 10 minutes after we got to the G platform. No apologies, no explainiation, no nothing. Not only that, the conductor and the motorperson had the most flippant attitudes. My suggestion is this: Screw the MTA. You ant to shove the gold card, etc. down our throats? Fine. I'll be tokens. Improve service and we'll talk. As for the unions, these assholes operate with impunity because they can't be disciplined. So, let's do away with the unions and get some really responsible, good workers in there. Or at least, make discipline part of the regiment. The train is late? Fine the motorman and conductor, effective immediately. If it was the dispatcher's fault, a suspension without pay will do the trick. Let's get these assholes to realize that we, the straphangers are the most important commodity. Let's get responsible people to run this thing. Then, we'll all be happy, because we'll have a transit system that works, instead of this mess.

Thread title: You Think ??? (756414)
Started on Sun Jul 6 15:23:06 1997, by Steve

Subject: You Think ???
Message Number: 756414
Posted by: Steve
Date: Sun Jul 6 15:23:06 1997

In Reply to: [5]The Inefficient MTA posted by JC on July 06, 1997 at 12:53:14: You had a truly unfortunate experience. However, how do you know that the cause of your delay was due to negligence? I don't know that this is the case. At the time you were trying to get home from your party (or whatever) most of the Subways Operating Management from the Senior Vice President on down were on duty. Many had been on duty more than 20 hours without a break in a smokey 100+ degree tunnel, trying to restore service on the 8th Avenue corridor. I do not know for sure but I suspect that the delay you encountered was due to the emergency work equipment being moved along the Queens Corridor to the site of the derailment. Perhaps the train dispatchers had their hands full, diverting service around this 'slow moving' work equipment. Perhaps the train crews were not able to tell you what was going on or why because all of the radio channels were overloaded with communications between Control Center and dispatchers directing work trains, police, fire and so many others. Yeah, I suppose that we could discipline that one crew who couldn't answer your question just as they couldn't answer that same question when it was asked of them 1,000 times earlier. I also suppose we could discipline the Train Dispatchers at Queens Plaza, Continental Ave. & 179th St. who might have, while dealing with the ongoing service disruptions (due to the emergency), neglected to keep you informed. [BTW, the train dispatchers are also in a union, The Subway & Surface Supervisors Assoc. and are subject to discipline.] The cleanup and restoration of service in Harlem, on the 8th Ave line, was a monumental accomplishment. It was cleared in an amazing 22 hours. To get it done, required a tremendous effort, not only by the 400+ employees and managers of the TA who were on-site, from the Police and Fire and EMS, but also from the rest of the system where dispatchers and tower operators and train crews went above and beyond to provide more service on the unaffected segments of the system. As for your intollerable inconvenience, I profoundly appologize. I could go on, but many of us who were at 135th Street for for the entire 22 hours on July 3 & 4 are having our 4th of July celebrations with our families, today. I'm on my way to mine.
- Subject: Re: You Think ???
- Message Number: 756415
- Posted by: sid
- Date: Sun Jul 6 20:58:56 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]You Think ??? posted by Steve on July 06, 1997 at 15:23:06: Look. I think the guy was making a valid point. Waiting for a train for over an hour is bullcrap, especially considering we are the ones that pay for the overbloated MTA. You were down in the tunnel for 22 hours? Great. I thank you. Its also part of your job. As they say to Cecil Fielder, if you don't like DHing, take your fat caboose outta here and we'll pay someone else the $7 mil he gets. It boil;s down to whether the MTA and the unions care about the passengers throuoghout the system. The answer is no. Let's get people in here who do. An hour without any word, alternative modes of transit, etc. is inexcusible. In the private sector, it wouldn't be tolerated.
  - Subject: Re: You Think ???
  - Message Number: 756416
  - Posted by: Zack
  - Date: Sun Jul 6 22:12:07 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: You Think ??? posted by sid on July 06, 1997 at 20:58:56: you should concider yourself lucky at least you got home. at least you had that subway to get home on, they couldve just shut thoes affected lines down until the wreck was cleard up.
    - Subject: Re: You Think ???
    - Message Number: 756422
    - Posted by: sid
    - Date: Mon Jul 7 00:54:42 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: You Think ??? posted by Zack on July 06, 1997 at 22:12:07: thAt's not the issue. The issue is that the west side lines were running well the IRT that is. so was the E. It was the lack of care of the MTA wizards who, with a little understanding, could have sent word that the G was late so commuters could have taken alternate routes home. Buses like the B61 serve the G area around McCarren Park from Queens Plaza.
      - Subject: Re: You Think ???
      - Message Number: 756424
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Mon Jul 7 03:42:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: You Think ??? posted by sid on July 06, 1997 at 20:58:56: Thanks for your input but let me make 3 small corrections. First: I checked the computer - tonight. There were no train delays of an hour or more on the G line - northbound or southbound that day. There were no significant delays at all on that line. Second: The point wasn't that I was there for 22 hours. The point was that we were dealing with something far more significant and immediately important than one person's alleged commutation confussion. Third: I do not make $7,000,000. 00 per year so don't compare me to a professional athlete. Besides would he play for the Yankees - even one game for free? Well, I doubt that you are aware of this but virtually every manager who was there was not being paid for that time. The fact that you had Lionel trains as a kid does not mean that you are remotely qualified to run a rail system.There are many things that happen that are not to our credit but given the circumstances with which we were dealing, I think we did a great job.
        
        Subject: Re: You Think ???
        Message Number: 756427
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Mon Jul 7 09:57:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: You Think ??? posted by Steve on July 07, 1997 at 03:42:42: I agree with you on this topic. It's a matter of dealing with the highest priority at the time. Of course you shouldn't ignore other services (I'm not implying that the TA did), but again, as you said many TA employees (inclding Management) was dealing with a disaster. As can relate very easily as I am a LAN administrator and my point here is that when the LAN goes down it affects many more people than say a jammed printer in an isolated section of the office - and if this is the case well I will have most of my people on the LAN problem first It's one of those cases where a lesser priority thing such as the mysterious southbound G train may have slipped through the cracks. This can happen in any profession and yes, if I was delayed for an hour waiting for one train, I would be unhappy , but I would be even unhappier if the TA had dragged it's feet in clearing up the 8 Ave problems. I know a office and a transit system are completely different, but my point here is that in ANY job one must prioritize.
        
        Subject: Re: You Think ???
        Message Number: 756429
        Posted by: Nathan
        Date: Mon Jul 7 12:51:47 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: You Think ??? posted by sid on July 06, 1997 at 20:58:56: What does Major League Baseball have to do with this? Stick to riding the trains, not controlling them.
        
        Subject: Re: You Think ???
        Message Number: 756431
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Jul 7 13:27:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: You Think ??? posted by Nathan on July 07, 1997 at 12:51:47: You are correct about baseball, but riding trains isn't the same as controlling them. That goes for model trains or the real thing.
        
        Subject: Re: You Think ???
        Message Number: 756483
        Posted by: Nathan
        Date: Tue Jul 8 23:06:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: You Think ??? posted by Steve on July 07, 1997 at 13:27:39: That was what I was trying to say...I was telling him not to even talk about controlling trains, he must know nothing about standard operations...

Thread title: FERRY TURNSTILES (756417)
Started on Sun Jul 6 23:25:55 1997, by John

Subject: FERRY TURNSTILES
Message Number: 756417
Posted by: John
Date: Sun Jul 6 23:25:55 1997

Now that the Staten Island Ferry is free, will the Transit Authority eventually remove the turnstiles from the Staten Island terminal? I was on the ferry yesterday, and the turnstiles were still there, only they were unlocked.

Thread title: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin (756418)
Started on Sun Jul 6 23:47:52 1997, by Joe M

Subject: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin
Message Number: 756418
Posted by: Joe M
Date: Sun Jul 6 23:47:52 1997

City of Kenosha Wiscosnin has purchased 5 ex Toronto 4600 Cars and is planning how they can be best used in the Harborpark lakefront redevelopment area. When the plan is complete they will likely be run by the Kenosha Transit Commission but outside funding is needed (Donations) and volunteers may help with restoration, and staffing
- Subject: Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin
- Message Number: 756423
- Posted by: Nathan
- Date: Mon Jul 7 01:05:41 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin posted by Joe M on July 06, 1997 at 23:47:52: Ah yes, the Toronto PCC's are in very good condition seeing as they have all been rebuilt in the past 10 years. How is the city of Kenosha (I'm sorry, I don't know where it is) going to deal with the off-standard track guage used by these cars? Are they just going to lay the rails wider apart or reconfigure the bogeys? That is one of the dillemnas being encountered here (Vancouver BC) because the city has bought an existing rail right of way for streetcar use, (to, ultimetly connect a new light rail line to the city's ART, around false creek. Toronto PCC's are being considered but there is the track guage problems, which would bring compatibility problems with the restored BC Electric interurbans...
  - Subject: Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin
  - Message Number: 756430
  - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
  - Date: Mon Jul 7 12:54:11 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin posted by Nathan on July 07, 1997 at 01:05:41: Track guage is not a problem - any rail shop can reguage a Toronto guage B-2 truck to standard guage. The axles are only 2 3/8" longer than standard and there are no collars on the axle transoms. The wheels can be pressed in 1 3/16" on each side (with the end protruding through the outer cheek plate) or cut down to the proper length. There should be no problems with reguaging. When SEPTA (Philadelphia) bought Toronto PCC's in the 1970's the TTC shops simply pulled the wheels OUT on the axles to make the guage 5' 2 1/4". The cars ran that way (with an obvious "hole" in the cheek plates) for almost 3 years until SEPTA rebuilt the trucks properly. PCC's are pretty tough and forgiving.
    - Subject: Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin
    - Message Number: 756525
    - Posted by: Bingo
    - Date: Thu Jul 10 16:22:44 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin posted by Nathan on July 07, 1997 at 01:05:41: What Toronto PCC's? I haven't seen a PCC since they were used on the Harbourfront LRT line. I know we sold couple dozen of them to Egypt. Anyway, Toronto needs new streetcars.
      - Subject: Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin
      - Message Number: 756532
      - Posted by: James
      - Date: Thu Jul 10 23:22:22 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin posted by Dan Lawrence on July 07, 1997 at 12:54:11: I can't believe that any AAR certified shop will change the 'back to back' dimension of wheel sets the way you describe it. Where did you get your information?
        
        Subject: Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin
        Message Number: 756534
        Posted by: Nathan
        Date: Fri Jul 11 01:55:48 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin posted by Bingo on July 10, 1997 at 16:22:44: The TTC PCC's were removed from regular service in 1995, but they are still on TTC property. Yes, Toronto needs new streetcars, but the CLRV's look pretty nice...
        
        Subject: Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin
        Message Number: 756549
        Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
        Date: Fri Jul 11 13:03:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin posted by James on July 10, 1997 at 23:22:22: Who said any transit shop was AAR Certified? Some may be but for the most part, these operations work under their own set of regulations.
        
        Subject: Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin
        Message Number: 756551
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Fri Jul 11 13:15:22 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin posted by James on July 10, 1997 at 23:22:22: My information comes from SEPTA, MBTA and SFMUNI. All three properties have shopped PCC B-2 trucks from various guages. PCC Trucks are unlike any other streetcar trucks in that everything is built to the same standards. Want to reguage a truck from Toronto guage to standard guage? Just disassemble the truck, pull the backing plates from the axles, pull the axles, reset or replace the "wide guage" axles, repress the backing plates on the axles and finish assembling the truck. Not complicated at all. In the case of Kenosa, the CTA shops should be able to reguage the trucks quickly. Only the axles are changed, nothing else.
        
        Subject: Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin
        Message Number: 756607
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Mon Jul 14 00:09:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin posted by Dan Lawrence on July 11, 1997 at 13:15:22: Thanks for the info. We think the B-2 trucks can be regauged. The easist way is to retruck them with standard trucks. There are some standard gauge trucks out there yet.
        
        Subject: Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin
        Message Number: 756632
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Mon Jul 14 12:27:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin posted by Joe M on July 14, 1997 at 00:09:03: That's one way to do it. The National Capital Trolley Museum converted a Toronto PCC to standard guage by swapping the trucks with a pair from a Shaker Heights car, after changing the brake acuators to the ones removed from the Toronto trucks so that the car would react the same. (Both sets of trucks have the same motors.) In Dallas, the 2 cars that the McKinney Avenue Transit Authority acquired will have their trucks reguaged by the DART Light Rail shops.
        
        Subject: Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin
        Message Number: 756666
        Posted by: Joe M
        Date: Mon Jul 14 22:52:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin posted by Dan Lawrence on July 14, 1997 at 12:27:18: I have talked to the people at McKinney Ave and we are swapping info about regauging. If you find more info let me know
        
        Subject: Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin
        Message Number: 756744
        Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
        Date: Thu Jul 17 13:25:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin posted by Joe M on July 14, 1997 at 22:52:45: At Seashore we recently regauged Phila. 2709. The methodology was to disacrd the broad gauge wheel and axle sets, and replace them with similar units from Boston cars. This is done byremoving the nuts holding the spring keepers (easier said than done), disconnecting the drive shafts and lifting the upper part of the truck away. The original axles and the track brake spacer are then discarded, and the ones from the standard gauge truck installed, retaining the original torque arms and magnets. In our case the drive shaft flange also had to be replaced. In this way we were able to use the maximum number of parts from the original truck at minimum cost. Of course to do this, you have to have suitable junk trucks with good axles available. Gerry
        
        Subject: Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin
        Message Number: 756749
        Posted by: Bingo
        Date: Thu Jul 17 19:17:10 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin posted by Nathan on July 11, 1997 at 01:55:48: Yes, but the CLRV's are OLD! What Toronto needs is another streetcar ready to phase these cars out. The PCC's were introduced in Toronto to phase out the Peter Witt cars, then the CLRV's to phase out the PCC's. The CLRV's time has come, and it had better come soon, because they weren't built too well and are BREAKING DOWN.>>
        
        Subject: Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin
        Message Number: 756781
        Posted by: Joe-M
        Date: Fri Jul 25 15:59:55 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: PCC Streetcars for Kenosha Wisconsin posted by Gerry O'Regan on July 17, 1997 at 13:25:08: Thanks for the information We will be getting the cars home to Kenosha in the near future. We hope to have them running sometime in 1999.

Thread title: New NYC subway cars (756434)
Started on Mon Jul 7 13:51:15 1997, by Aaron

Subject: New NYC subway cars
Message Number: 756434
Posted by: Aaron
Date: Mon Jul 7 13:51:15 1997

Will all new cars have the motorman cabs completely across the car so you can never see out the front window again?
- Subject: Re: New NYC subway cars
- Message Number: 756436
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Mon Jul 7 15:18:13 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]New NYC subway cars posted by Aaron on July 07, 1997 at 13:51:15: Yup. Get your cab-view rides now while they last.
  - Subject: Re: New NYC subway cars
  - Message Number: 756442
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Mon Jul 7 17:25:07 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: New NYC subway cars posted by David Pirmann on July 07, 1997 at 15:18:13: Or you can always become a motorman - oops, I mean train operator.
    - Subject: Re: New NYC subway cars
    - Message Number: 756452
    - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
    - Date: Mon Jul 7 20:47:02 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: New NYC subway cars posted by Steve on July 07, 1997 at 17:25:07: Or, maybe the TA could do the full width cabs Baltimore style - a forward facing transverse seat with a window in front. (since Baltimore's operating position is on the left, the seat is on the right. The TA could just reverse the layout. Presto! A railfan seat WITHOUT blocking any end doors!
      - Subject: Re: New NYC subway cars
      - Message Number: 756453
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Mon Jul 7 23:17:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: New NYC subway cars posted by Dan Lawrence on July 07, 1997 at 20:47:02: Sorry, but I'm afraid that transverse cabs will be the rule for the near future, at least. Transverse cabs are needed for OPTO which will be making greater inroads over the next year or two. In fact, currently, it is being looked into whether some cars with corner cabs can be converted to transverse cabs.
        
        Subject: Re: New NYC subway cars
        Message Number: 756460
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Tue Jul 8 13:06:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: New NYC subway cars posted by Steve on July 07, 1997 at 23:17:27: Hmmm ... I guess the R62As would be fairly easy to convert because of the window that can be lowered on the left side of each car, but what about the R-32, 38, 40 or 42 series? Is the MTA considering cutting a window into the left side of (sone of) these cars? And I guesss they'd have to consider what to do with the side door panel; that is, permanently close it or reduce its size to make room for the train operator at that position. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: New NYC subway cars
        Message Number: 756473
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Tue Jul 8 19:24:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: New NYC subway cars posted by Mark S Feinman on July 08, 1997 at 13:06:05: It's only in the feasibility investigation stage. The only car being considered is the R-42 because it would be easy to cut through the fiberglass bonnet to install the off-side window. The cab would be sufficiently narrow that the door panel arrangement would not be changed.. BTW, the 62As have convertitle cabs. To make them transverse cabs, just one seat has to be removed and 1 side panel is swung out. Or something like that.
        
        Subject: Re: New NYC subway cars
        Message Number: 756482
        Posted by: John
        Date: Tue Jul 8 22:20:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: New NYC subway cars posted by Steve on July 08, 1997 at 19:24:20: So the cabs on the R-42s would be even narrower? Jeez, they are already narrow enough as it is! So while the Transit Authority will be cutting back on costs, the motormen and conductors will be cutting back on the Ring Dings and Twinkies :-)
        
        Subject: Re: New NYC subway cars
        Message Number: 756488
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Jul 9 00:34:22 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: New NYC subway cars posted by John on July 08, 1997 at 22:20:57: I didn't say that the cabs would be narrower. They would be as wide (front to back) as they are now, but they'd span the width of the car. Remember, this is just being looked at as of now.

Thread title: Pop Quiz for this week (756444)
Started on Mon Jul 7 17:37:14 1997, by Steve

Subject: Pop Quiz for this week
Message Number: 756444
Posted by: Steve
Date: Mon Jul 7 17:37:14 1997

Allowing only ONE transfer, what is the longest ONE-WAY ride you can take on the NYC Subway System. Name the 2 lines, the start and end points, the transfer point and the approximate distance you will have traveled. The correct answer is based on information in: "New York City Transit's Facts & Figures" Printed in 1994
- Subject: Re: Pop Quiz for this week
- Message Number: 756447
- Posted by: P.A.R.
- Date: Mon Jul 7 18:59:48 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Pop Quiz for this week posted by Steve on July 07, 1997 at 17:37:14: The longest ONE-WAY ride on the New York City Transit System, allowing for only ONE transfer, would take you over 38 miles in distance. Your starting point would be on the IRT Number 2 Line at 241 Street in the Bronx, transfering at 42 Street-Times Square for the IND Far Rockaway bound A Train, and getting off at its last stop: Far Rockaway-Mott Avenue.
  - Subject: Re: Pop Quiz for this week
  - Message Number: 756448
  - Posted by: Koi
  - Date: Mon Jul 7 19:40:33 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Pop Quiz for this week posted by Steve on July 07, 1997 at 17:37:14: Longest one way trip on the subway: The 2 lines: A, 2 Start point: Mott Ave, Far Rockaway End point: 241st St. in The Bronx Transfer point: B'way Nassau St. on the A to the 2
    - Subject: Re: Pop Quiz for this week
    - Message Number: 756449
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Mon Jul 7 20:24:16 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Pop Quiz for this week posted by Koi on July 07, 1997 at 19:40:33: Got it all except for the length of the trip...
      - Subject: Re: Pop Quiz for this week
      - Message Number: 756450
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Mon Jul 7 20:25:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Pop Quiz for this week posted by P.A.R. on July 07, 1997 at 18:59:48: Got it all! Very good !!
        
        Subject: Re: Pop Quiz for this week
        Message Number: 756459
        Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
        Date: Tue Jul 8 11:01:12 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Pop Quiz for this week posted by Steve on July 07, 1997 at 20:25:27: The Times Square connection makes the trip even longer due to the one long block walk from 7th Av. to 8th Av in the transfer tunnel. The transfer in Lower Manhattan involves less walking.
        
        Subject: Re: Pop Quiz for this week
        Message Number: 756461
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Tue Jul 8 13:29:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Pop Quiz for this week posted by Steve on July 07, 1997 at 17:37:14: Hate to be a spoil sport, but your rules do not forbid reversing general direction on the second line. Therefore I submit A train from Mott Ave to 168th st upper Manhattan, and IRT 7th ave back to New Lots Ave in Brooklyn.There could be a longer run on a BMT Coney Island run, but the uptown link would have to be below 59th St. so I didn't check it.
        
        Subject: Re: Pop Quiz for this week
        Message Number: 756470
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Tue Jul 8 19:16:48 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Pop Quiz for this week posted by Gary Jacobi on July 08, 1997 at 13:29:45: You know, I thought about that last night. What if you start at Mott Ave, Far Rockaway and change at 145th Street for a southbound D? Well anyway, since there was no prize at stake, you win too.
        
        Subject: Re: Pop Quiz for this week
        Message Number: 756471
        Posted by: P.A.R.
        Date: Tue Jul 8 19:16:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Pop Quiz for this week posted by Gary Jacobi on July 08, 1997 at 13:29:45: True, but if you were to take this route, you would have to transfer from an Uptown A-Train at 168th Street, to either a Downtown 1 or 9 local, and then transfer again to a Brooklyn-bound 3-Train. If I just counted correctly, that's TWO transfers. The quiz allowed for only ONE transfer. There is no train at 168th Street that you can transfer to that goes to New Lots Avenue in Brooklyn. P.S. If you wanted to try this route today, you wouldn't be able to because the IRT 168th Street Station is closed for Elevator repairs until September 8. Oh well, nice try!!!
        
        Subject: Re: Pop Quiz for this week
        Message Number: 756472
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Tue Jul 8 19:19:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Pop Quiz for this week posted by Gerry O'Regan on July 08, 1997 at 11:01:12: Ehhhhhhhhh. Sorry, we're talking rail miles only. Otherwise we'd have to count which passage you walk through and if you went out of your way to get to the restroom.
        
        Subject: Re: Pop Quiz for this week
        Message Number: 756539
        Posted by: Philip E. Dominguez
        Date: Fri Jul 11 09:39:46 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Pop Quiz for this week posted by Gary Jacobi on July 08, 1997 at 13:29:45: Take the A Train from Far Rockaway to Lower Manhattan. Then Transfer to #2 train. Take #2 northbound to 241 st. -Phil

Thread title: Have idea? (756455)
Started on Tue Jul 8 01:17:32 1997, by Chris Roman

Subject: Have idea?
Message Number: 756455
Posted by: Chris Roman
Date: Tue Jul 8 01:17:32 1997

Where can I send ideas to the MTA about service improvemnets and will they listen to me. I have some ideas that will make me president of the MTA. If anyone wants to hear, email me. THanks
- Subject: Re: Have idea?
- Message Number: 756469
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Tue Jul 8 19:13:38 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Have idea? posted by Chris Roman on July 08, 1997 at 01:17:32: Don't wait for an audience. If you have something to say, just say it. If you want to contact the MTA directly, I suggest that you might find them in the Manhattan phone book.
  - Subject: Re: Have idea?
  - Message Number: 756766
  - Posted by: robert
  - Date: Tue Jul 22 18:31:33 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Have idea? posted by Steve on July 08, 1997 at 19:13:38: The TA isn't interested in your ideas. The idea of "looking it up in a Manhatten phone book" is absurd and childish. There is simply too many turf problems as well as an I-didn't-invent-it in an organization that is not run by the standards of a normal business organization. One TA design engineer I know is off the boat from a foreign country and barely speaks english but he got hired. The wheel is rediscovered every year and the actual organization arrangements are kept from the public. There is also millions of dollars in political pork shifted around you never hear about. Privatization would be the only answer but that isn't going to happen. There are too many overpaid underworked executives who couldn't hold jobs at a McDonalds with fabulous golden parachutes.

Thread title: Too Old to Still Be Running!!! (756462)
Started on Tue Jul 8 13:30:11 1997, by John

Subject: Too Old to Still Be Running!!!
Message Number: 756462
Posted by: John
Date: Tue Jul 8 13:30:11 1997

When is the Long Island Rail Road going to replace those ancient deisel trains? The trains don't even have head-end power; they need two units per train, a locomotive, and a power unit. The cars and locomotives look like they're straight from Ancient Greece, with rust spots all over them, they bang around and make funny noises when you ride in them. I can't understand how the LIRR can purchase and operate modern electric trains, while at the same time, keep operating the old deisels. I understand the things about loyalty and nostalga (see how much I like the Redbirds?), but I mean, come on! These trains are too old to still be in service and they need to be replaced! Why doesn't Metro North or NJ Transit lease some of their trains to the LIRR until they purchase new equipment?
- Subject: Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!!
- Message Number: 756463
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Tue Jul 8 13:37:08 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Too Old to Still Be Running!!! posted by John on July 08, 1997 at 13:30:11: They already have ordered new equipment. They've already got some of the double-decker cars running. Not sure what they ordered for locomotive replacements, though. -Dave p.s. there was a show on PBS recently about train travel in India. There was a bit about a line that used steam locomotives, of which the newest locomotive had been running since 1902... Maybe the LIRR can sell their old stuff to them :-)
  - Subject: Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!!
  - Message Number: 756464
  - Posted by: aaron
  - Date: Tue Jul 8 13:41:44 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Too Old to Still Be Running!!! posted by John on July 08, 1997 at 13:30:11: There are few sets of double-decker Diesel Electric trainsets now running in the rush hour only. I believe they are powered by FL9s. They are not very reliable and are out of service about 30% of the time. Because the LIRR takes power from the top of the third rail as opposed to the bottom on Metro-North, the locomotives are not compatible. P.S. How do you spell diesel?
    - Subject: Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!!
    - Message Number: 756468
    - Posted by: Todd Glickman
    - Date: Tue Jul 8 18:02:37 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!! posted by David Pirmann on July 08, 1997 at 13:37:08: According to "The Bulletin" of the NY Division of the Electric Railroaders' Association (June, 1977), the first two new dual-mode locomotives, Model DE-30 being built in Barre, Vt, should be on the property in August. The pilot cars of the new bi-level coaches (Mitsui) will arrive in July. The first train composed of the new rolling stock and locomotive is expected to be running next January.
      - Subject: Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!!
      - Message Number: 756480
      - Posted by: Andrew Huie
      - Date: Tue Jul 8 21:57:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!! posted by aaron on July 08, 1997 at 13:41:44: How difficult can it be to convert them to overriding shoes?
        
        Subject: Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!!
        Message Number: 756484
        Posted by: Nathan
        Date: Tue Jul 8 23:13:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!! posted by David Pirmann on July 08, 1997 at 13:37:08: Will the new equipment be dieselor electric?? Nathan PS:I saw that show too...
        
        Subject: Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!!
        Message Number: 756486
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Jul 9 00:28:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!! posted by Nathan on July 08, 1997 at 23:13:40: Some will be dual mode but the majority will be diesel...
        
        Subject: Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!!
        Message Number: 756487
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Wed Jul 9 00:30:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!! posted by Andrew Huie on July 08, 1997 at 21:57:40: It's not difficult at all. It only involves changing the shoe beams - the device that colds the contact shoe and fulcrum to the truck.
        
        Subject: Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!!
        Message Number: 756501
        Posted by: Andrew Huie
        Date: Wed Jul 9 22:05:48 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!! posted by Steve on July 09, 1997 at 00:28:36: I find it a little odd that the LIRR doesn't seem to put much emphasis on dual-mode locomotives, considering how much of the system is electrified. Hell, with a dual mode locomotive they should be able to run a train all the way to eastern long island. Was there any reason why this wasn't pursued further?
        
        Subject: Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!!
        Message Number: 756515
        Posted by: Dave
        Date: Thu Jul 10 09:17:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!! posted by Andrew Huie on July 09, 1997 at 22:05:48: Will dual-mode diesels (e.g., FL-9 or the new engines being built) fit in the tunnel to Penn Station?
        
        Subject: Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!!
        Message Number: 756517
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Thu Jul 10 10:55:17 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!! posted by Dave on July 10, 1997 at 09:17:41: [re dual-mode locomotives fitting in the Penn Station tunnels] There shouldn't be any problem. Afternoons at 4:54 a train with the new bi-level cars (pulled by a FL-9 dual-mode locomotive) runs out of Penn to Pt. Jefferson.
        
        Subject: Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!!
        Message Number: 756529
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Thu Jul 10 22:13:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!! posted by Peter Rosa on July 10, 1997 at 10:55:17: I don't want to nit-pick but it's the 4:49 PM out of Penn Station (track 19) or 5:11 PM from Jamaica. By the way, in the morning it passes through Hicksville between 6:40 - 6:45 Am and at about 7:05 @ Jamaica.
        
        Subject: Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!!
        Message Number: 756530
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Thu Jul 10 22:15:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Too Old to Still Be Running!!! posted by Dave on July 10, 1997 at 09:17:41: The FL-9 s have no trouble fitting through the Amtrak tunnels into Penn Station.

Thread title: Metra, will they ever switch to electric trains? (756466)
Started on Tue Jul 8 13:53:42 1997, by Brian

Subject: Metra, will they ever switch to electric trains?
Message Number: 756466
Posted by: Brian
Date: Tue Jul 8 13:53:42 1997

I was wondering why Metra the Chicago Commuter Rail System still operates Diesel trains when NYC and other places swithched to Electric such a long time ago. It is not that these trains are old, they just cause lots of pollution. The engines are new and are quiet.
- Subject: Re: Metra, will they ever switch to electric trains?
- Message Number: 756467
- Posted by: aaron
- Date: Tue Jul 8 13:58:23 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Metra, will they ever switch to electric trains? posted by Brian on July 08, 1997 at 13:53:42: It costs a fortune to electrify, look at what is being spent on upgrading the Northeast Corridor from New Haven to Boston.
  - Subject: Re: Metra, will they ever switch to electric trains?
  - Message Number: 756479
  - Posted by: Andrew Huie
  - Date: Tue Jul 8 21:06:45 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Metra, will they ever switch to electric trains? posted by aaron on July 08, 1997 at 13:58:23: Wow, they're electrifying the stretch between New Haven and Boston? Quite an undertaking for Slamtrak! 8-) When do they expect it to be done? To Brian: As for electrified commuter railroads in the NY area, there aren't as many as you might think. The Long Island Railroad still has large sections of non-electrified trackage mainly because it is either unwanted or unneeded. The Hudson line, which runs part way along the Empire corridor, is only electrified up to Croton-Harmon, less than half it's total length. Even the New Haven line, which runs along the Northeast corridor has 2 fairly long, non-electrified branches. Finally, out of the 4 (5?) lines out of Hoboken, only one is electrified - the rest are diesel.
    - Subject: Re: Metra, will they ever switch to electric trains?
    - Message Number: 756481
    - Posted by: John
    - Date: Tue Jul 8 22:08:47 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Metra, will they ever switch to electric trains? posted by Andrew Huie on July 08, 1997 at 21:06:45: Actually, 3 of the lines out of Hoboken are electrified - the Montclair Branch, Morristown Branch, and Gladstone Branch, although diesel trains are sometimes used on these lines (don't ask me why!).
      - Subject: Re: Metra, will they ever switch to electric trains?
      - Message Number: 756485
      - Posted by: Nathan
      - Date: Tue Jul 8 23:23:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Metra, will they ever switch to electric trains? posted by Brian on July 08, 1997 at 13:53:42: Economics:Electrification requires a large capital investment and thus a long planning/environmental impact review time. Aside from cost, the pollution concern is somewhat negligable because a passenger riding a train with one diesel locomotive pulling 500 people would still pollute considerably less than 1 person in a single occupant vehicle. (yes, there is still those nasty emissions, NOX etc...)
        
        Subject: Re: Metra, will they ever switch to electric trains?
        Message Number: 756492
        Posted by: Ed Sachs
        Date: Wed Jul 9 11:58:53 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Metra, will they ever switch to electric trains? posted by Brian on July 08, 1997 at 13:53:42: Actually, Metra does have an electrified line -- the former Illinois Central commuter line, which now goes by the name "Metra Electric". This line was electrified in 1926 to reduce smoke pollution along the lakefront (it runs along the lake from the Hyde Park area of Chicago to the Loop). Also, the South Shore line, a former interurban line which uses the Metra Electric trackage into Chicago, is electrified. The Illinois Central line is also unique in that there are separate tracks for the commuter and freight servies. At their height, there were 10 tracks between Hyde Park and Roosevelt Rd (about a mile south of the downtown commuter terminal at Randolph St., and the site of Central Station, the mainline passenger terminal). Six tracks were used for the commuter trains (IC and SS), two for mainline passenger, and two for freight. The other lines lines are unlikely to electrify because of the economics. Electrification was a big enough benefit over steam operation to justify the cost. However, with the advent of diesel/electric locomotives and push-pull operation, the financial incentive just isn't there any more. As for pollution, coal fired electric generating plants are a big source of it, also.

Thread title: Re: NYC Subway in 2020 (J/Z) (756489)
Started on Wed Jul 9 08:57:38 1997, by Keranu

Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020 (J/Z)
Message Number: 756489
Posted by: Keranu
Date: Wed Jul 9 08:57:38 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 posted by Garfield on July 07, 1997 at 17:12:48: Where did you hear that they're going to cut the J/Z! That's a huge line, don't many people use it? Is it true they cut the express between Marcy and Myrtle? Cutting that line would leave a vast gap in N. Brooklyn and commuters would have to contend with the bus or those lucky enough to drive to subway stations may be crammed onto the overcrowded Queens Blvd line. Does the MTA actually adopt a transit-shrinking programme? The subway has done nothing but shrink and cut service since about 1960 (except for a few extremely modest but fairly useless extensions). Does NYC treat its subways as a way backwards and the car as the way forward. In London, where a total of 120 years worth of productivity is lost each morning through employees sitting in traffic jams, the Underground (Subway) is seen as a solution and no expense is spared (and believe me, they're seriously short of money too). Or does NYC want to turn into a Los Angeles, practically zilch in the way of rail-based public transportation with highways criss-crossing the city and pollution belching big cars everywhere?
- Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020 (J/Z)
- Message Number: 756497
- Posted by: John
- Date: Wed Jul 9 13:54:44 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 (J/Z) posted by Keranu on July 09, 1997 at 08:57:38: Unfortunately, it looks as if New York is headed in that direction. Did you read my post above for "NYC Subway in 2020"?

Thread title: Re: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines (Historical Note) (756493)
Started on Wed Jul 9 12:12:29 1997, by Ed Sachs

Subject: Re: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines (Historical Note)
Message Number: 756493
Posted by: Ed Sachs
Date: Wed Jul 9 12:12:29 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines (Second try!) posted by Gerry O'Regan on July 08, 1997 at 10:54:29: During the late 1950s, a few IRT low-Vs were used on the BMT Franklin Shuttle. They were outfitted with platform extensions under the doors so there wouldn't be a platform gap, and (I presume) trip cocks on the correct side for BMT operation.
- Subject: Re: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines (Historical Note)
- Message Number: 756494
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Jul 9 12:38:06 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Can irt cars run on bmt/ind lines (Historical Note) posted by Ed Sachs on July 09, 1997 at 12:12:29: > IRT low-Vs were used on the BMT Franklin Shuttle Yup! They also ran on the Culver Shuttle, and we have pictures! see [7]Culver Shuttle. I also have one of the train on the Franklin Shuttle, which I'll put up soon. --Dave

Thread title: You mean the trucks are loose?? (Was Re: Questions on Refurbished R-40 (756066)
Started on Wed Jul 9 19:52:16 1997, by .

Subject: You mean the trucks are loose?? (Was Re: Questions on Refurbished R-40
Message Number: 756066
Posted by: .
Date: Wed Jul 9 19:52:16 1997
- Subject: Re: You mean the trucks are loose?? (Was Re: Questions on Refurbished R-40
- Message Number: 756077
- Posted by: .
- Date: Wed Jul 9 19:52:29 1997
  - Subject: Re: You mean the trucks are loose?? (Was Re: Questions on Refurbished R-40
  - Message Number: 756833
  - Posted by: .
  - Date: Mon Aug 25 19:53:38 1997
    - Subject: Re: You mean the trucks are loose?? (Was Re: Questions on Refurbished R-40
    - Message Number: 756834
    - Posted by: .
    - Date: Mon Aug 25 19:53:39 1997

Thread title: Re: suggested connection between Grand and E Bway (was: Second Avenue (756102)
Started on Wed Jul 9 19:53:00 1997, by .

Subject: Re: suggested connection between Grand and E Bway (was: Second Avenue
Message Number: 756102
Posted by: .
Date: Wed Jul 9 19:53:00 1997
- Subject: Re: suggested connection between Grand and E Bway (was: Second Avenue
- Message Number: 756109
- Posted by: .
- Date: Wed Jul 9 19:53:10 1997
  - Subject: Re: suggested connection between Grand and E Bway (was: Second Avenue
  - Message Number: 756123
  - Posted by: .
  - Date: Wed Jul 9 19:53:27 1997

Thread title: Re:TTC's Yonge-University-Spadina Subway, formerly know as:TTC Ugly (756140)
Started on Wed Jul 9 19:53:49 1997, by .

Subject: Re:TTC's Yonge-University-Spadina Subway, formerly know as:TTC Ugly
Message Number: 756140
Posted by: .
Date: Wed Jul 9 19:53:49 1997
- Subject: Re:TTC's Yonge-University-Spadina Subway, formerly know as:TTC Ugly
- Message Number: 756194
- Posted by: .
- Date: Wed Jul 9 19:54:56 1997

Thread title: DELETED POSTS - READ ME NOW (756163)
Started on Wed Jul 9 19:54:18 1997, by David Pirmann - Web Site Host

Subject: DELETED POSTS - READ ME NOW
Message Number: 756163
Posted by: David Pirmann - Web Site Host
Date: Wed Jul 9 19:54:18 1997

Hello, I just deleted a bunch of posts about canadian politics that were getting pretty out of hand. I got some complaints, actually, from non-Canadians about them. So please, guys up north and everyone else, please keep the political stuff that doesn't relate to transit away from here. We don't need to be advocating violence or anything else illegal, okay folks? --Dave
- Subject: Re: DELETED POSTS - READ ME NOW
- Message Number: 756196
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Sat Jun 28 16:35:56 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]DELETED POSTS - READ ME NOW posted by David Pirmann - Web Site Host on June 27, 1997 at 13:03:05: No wonder I didn't understand them, they were talking about Canadian Politics. I'm with you, except for an occasional questioning of MTA's decision making ability. I will never mention names; they know who they are!

Thread title: Don't turn Floyd-Bennet Field into a freaky train yard, take your ideas (756211)
Started on Wed Jul 9 19:55:18 1997, by .

Subject: Don't turn Floyd-Bennet Field into a freaky train yard, take your ideas
Message Number: 756211
Posted by: .
Date: Wed Jul 9 19:55:18 1997
- Subject: Re: Don't turn Floyd-Bennet Field into a freaky train yard, take your ideas
- Message Number: 756230
- Posted by: .
- Date: Wed Jul 9 19:55:42 1997
  - Subject: Re: Don't turn Floyd-Bennet Field into a freaky train yard, take your ideas
  - Message Number: 756238
  - Posted by: .
  - Date: Wed Jul 9 19:55:53 1997
    - Subject: Re: Don't turn Floyd-Bennet Field into a freaky train yard, take your ideas
    - Message Number: 756257
    - Posted by: .
    - Date: Wed Jul 9 19:56:17 1997
      - Subject: Re: Don't turn Floyd-Bennet Field into a freaky train yard, take your ideas
      - Message Number: 756262
      - Posted by: .
      - Date: Wed Jul 9 19:56:24 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Don't turn Floyd-Bennet Field into a freaky train yard, take your ideas
        Message Number: 756269
        Posted by: .
        Date: Wed Jul 9 19:56:33 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Don't turn Floyd-Bennet Field into a freaky train yard, take your ideas
        Message Number: 756272
        Posted by: .
        Date: Wed Jul 9 19:56:36 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Don't turn Floyd-Bennet Field into a freaky train yard, take your ideas
        Message Number: 756278
        Posted by: .
        Date: Wed Jul 9 19:56:44 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Don't turn Floyd-Bennet Field into a freaky train yard, take your ideas
        Message Number: 756314
        Posted by: .
        Date: Wed Jul 9 19:57:28 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Don't turn Floyd-Bennet Field into a freaky train yard, take your ideas
        Message Number: 756319
        Posted by: .
        Date: Wed Jul 9 19:57:34 1997
        
        Subject: Re: Don't turn Floyd-Bennet Field into a freaky train yard, take your ideas
        Message Number: 756356
        Posted by: .
        Date: Wed Jul 9 19:58:20 1997

Thread title: Re: NYC Subway in 2020 (read me) (756503)
Started on Wed Jul 9 22:06:34 1997, by Charles

Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020 (read me)
Message Number: 756503
Posted by: Charles
Date: Wed Jul 9 22:06:34 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 posted by Keranu on July 09, 1997 at 10:11:51: I regret to inform those of you who have already responded to NYC Subway in 2020 that you are over dramitic and have a pesimistic attitude who need to see an obvous reality. The MTA Board and all of the "heads" whom run this system are subject to change. E. Virgil Conway, Lawerence Reuter etc these people are all temporary.. They will change when government changes. I don't think that ANYTHING including the Franklin Shuttle is going to be torn down. Ridership is up, crime is down. While expansion of the system is unrealistic, the sixty-third st. tunnel will get finished. Second Avenue, Sadly this will never happen. Station Rehabs improve the system, and I believe that we have come a long way. The R110 tech trains are a precursor to a new generation of equipment. Quieter more efficent than some of the lemons today such as the R40's. I am a fan of history, but in some cases history must make way for efficence, reliability, and a lack of capital I do not deny that I am seeing problems now. Defered matinence is becoming more and more prevelant. NYCT also needs to take a look at the way that they are treating their own employees. The system is far from perfect, but it is better than it was in the late 70's and early 80's. THE SYSTEM WILL NEVER DIE. It can crumble but New Yorkers will make sure that the subway, the main artery for NYC Survives the reign of incompetent politicans. The car will be superior to the subway until the city invests in the technology to update this system to the standards of other systems such as washington Metro The J/Z lines are going nowhere, Though the line needs major structural work.
- Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020 (read me)
- Message Number: 756585
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Sat Jul 12 08:18:13 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 (read me) posted by Charles on July 09, 1997 at 22:06:34: What deferred maintenance are you referring to? How does NYCT treat its employees that you find problematic? Where do you get your information & insight. I have more than a passing interest in these issues.
  - Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020 (read me)
  - Message Number: 756609
  - Posted by: Keranu
  - Date: Mon Jul 14 04:26:37 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 (read me) posted by Charles on July 09, 1997 at 22:06:34: OK, fine, I was just fooling around anyway, don't take it too seriously. The subway in NYC is by far the best in the world (I think) and I HOPE it never dies. This seems unrealistic. What's the Washington Metro like?
    - Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020 (read me)
    - Message Number: 756630
    - Posted by: charles
    - Date: Mon Jul 14 11:19:02 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 (read me) posted by Keranu on July 14, 1997 at 04:26:37: I was out there about 8 years ago. It seemed to me to be a "futuristic" System. The stations were air Conditioned. THe trains were quiet, the stations were clean. The seats were cushoned with no standing passengers. The ride was similar to path. I found their fare collection inferior to NY's. This is due to a lack of personal in stations. The zoned fare system forces you to pay your fare when leaving the system.
      - Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020 (read me)
      - Message Number: 756754
      - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
      - Date: Thu Jul 17 22:15:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 (read me) posted by charles on July 14, 1997 at 11:19:02: The Washington Metro's farecard system is very easy to cheat. I don't know all the methods, but they all seem to use the fact that due to memory constraints, the computers that control the faregates dump the system every four hours. (The general rule is that no journey takes more than 4 hours.) Maybe somebody with more knowledge can expand on the cheat methods. I have heard that several years ago WMATA looked into revamping the fare collection system and discarded any plans to upgrade when the cost exceeded the projected losses due to fare cheating.

Thread title: No signs of life (756504)
Started on Wed Jul 9 23:34:21 1997, by Gary Jacobi

Subject: No signs of life
Message Number: 756504
Posted by: Gary Jacobi
Date: Wed Jul 9 23:34:21 1997

Are you down? No messages since 7/81
- Subject: Re: No signs of life
- Message Number: 756506
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Jul 9 23:42:05 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]No signs of life posted by Gary Jacobi on July 09, 1997 at 23:34:21: Check the View by Date. There were lots of posts today. (18). Not as many as past weeks, but that's maybe due to people being on vacation. I had some complaints about the site being slow, but as best I can tell that's an internet problem and not a server problem on my end. I've been watching the logs and we're getting a lot of hits every minute.
  - Subject: Re: No signs of life
  - Message Number: 756508
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Wed Jul 9 23:52:21 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: No signs of life posted by David Pirmann on July 09, 1997 at 23:42:05: View by date is working, but the home screen is acting very wierd(ly). I had the same problem earlier this afternoon from another PC. SOMETIMES I RELOAD, AND THERE ARE FEWER MESSAGES THAN BEFORE !
    - Subject: Re: No signs of life
    - Message Number: 756513
    - Posted by: David Pirmann
    - Date: Thu Jul 10 08:03:05 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: No signs of life posted by Gary Jacobi on July 09, 1997 at 23:52:21: I ran expire yesterday afternoon so of course there would have been less messages between early in the day and later. I've never seen the behavior you describe-- the index page is static and unless messages are physically removed it should always show the right list. The View By Date is a CGI script and compiles the list each time someone calls it up, based on the data in the View By Thread list (it doesn't actually search the articles on disk). If you see the pages showing less messages than before, please try and save them (save as source in netscape).
      - Subject: Re: No signs of life
      - Message Number: 756566
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Fri Jul 11 19:05:47 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: No signs of life posted by David Pirmann on July 10, 1997 at 08:03:05: I think I was online at the same moment you were cleaning up the site, because I have had no repeats of the phenomenon. My Mac is so fast that I sometimes miss seeing the message that it is using cached info because it couldn't re-establish contact with the site.

Thread title: Re: Metra track maps (756507)
Started on Wed Jul 9 23:43:20 1997, by steve lowenthal

Subject: Re: Metra track maps
Message Number: 756507
Posted by: steve lowenthal
Date: Wed Jul 9 23:43:20 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Metra, will they ever switch to electric trains? posted by Ed Sachs on July 09, 1997 at 11:58:53: does anyone HAVE track maps of the metra ----detailed
- Subject: Re: Metra track maps
- Message Number: 756524
- Posted by: aaron
- Date: Thu Jul 10 16:20:51 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Metra track maps posted by steve lowenthal on July 09, 1997 at 23:43:20: Yes, yes yes!!! Look at www.transitchicago.com, it is all there
  - Subject: Re: Metra track maps
  - Message Number: 756526
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Thu Jul 10 16:28:29 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Metra track maps posted by aaron on July 10, 1997 at 16:20:51: Don't see any track maps there. It's unlikely you'd find track maps on the official web site of the transit provider. They're fairly arcane and not of general interest. (There *IS* a route map there. Don't be confused between routes and tracks. A single route line of the NYC subway might have 2, 3, or 4 tracks, etc.) -Dave
    - Subject: Re: Metra track maps
    - Message Number: 756742
    - Posted by: BJ
    - Date: Thu Jul 17 12:25:21 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Metra track maps posted by David Pirmann on July 10, 1997 at 16:28:29: For a map from metra go to http://www.metrarail.com
      - Subject: Re: Metra track maps
      - Message Number: 756743
      - Posted by: David Pirmann
      - Date: Thu Jul 17 12:51:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Metra track maps posted by BJ on July 17, 1997 at 12:25:21: been there done that. The original post was about *track* maps. Their site only has a route map. If you found a track map could you post the complete URL?
        
        Subject: Re: Metra track maps
        Message Number: 756755
        Posted by: BJ
        Date: Thu Jul 17 22:54:13 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Metra track maps posted by David Pirmann on July 17, 1997 at 12:51:29: What Do you mean by *Track* Maps? Metra names all its routes by the freight railroads that own them. Their are a few route that have names like southwest service. Please respond
        
        Subject: Re: Metra track maps
        Message Number: 756758
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Fri Jul 18 08:19:48 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Metra track maps posted by BJ on July 17, 1997 at 22:54:13: Track maps show individual tracks, sidings, switches, and platform placement. A route map would show a single line between adjacent stations, whereas a track map might show 4 lines (each representing a track), and a set of crossover switches that might be between those two stations. Cheesy ascii mode: route map style would have a single line with markers for stations, here a b ig O for express and a little o for local 72nd 86th 96th ----0--------------o-----------------O----- track map style shows each track and platform placement, and a crossover swi tch between two stations. 72nd 86th 96th %%%% --------------------------\-----------/----------------- %%%% \ / %%%% ----------------------------\--\-/--/------------------- X ----------------------------/--/-\--\------------------- %%%% / \ %%%% --------------------------/-----------\----------------- %%%% See the difference? For NYC examples see [7]Track Maps, [8]Route Map, and lots of examples of route and track maps in [9]Transit Maps. --Dave

Thread title: Re: NYC Subway in 2020 (PRT, not PTM) (756509)
Started on Thu Jul 10 00:39:03 1997, by Nathan

Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020 (PRT, not PTM)
Message Number: 756509
Posted by: Nathan
Date: Thu Jul 10 00:39:03 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 posted by Huaxianija Xoataualja on July 09, 1997 at 16:00:58: Oh dear, another PRT activist. Look, the problems with personal rapid transit (PRT) is that they use automobile sized vehicles which are JUST electrified computerized automobiles, which means instead of subway lines we will have freeways with computerized automobiles on them. For some cities it will not solve the urban sprawl problem, and in NYC there is no room for the massive guideways required.
- Subject: Re: NYC Subway in 2020 (PRT, not PTM)
- Message Number: 756688
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Tue Jul 15 13:27:14 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway in 2020 (PRT, not PTM) posted by Nathan on July 10, 1997 at 00:39:03: > in NYC there is no room for the massive guideways required. You mean electrifying the LIE, BQE, Cross-Bronx Expressways, etc, doesn't appeal to you?? :-) --Mark

Thread title: 3 ave EL (756510)
Started on Thu Jul 10 03:33:13 1997, by Zack

Subject: 3 ave EL
Message Number: 756510
Posted by: Zack
Date: Thu Jul 10 03:33:13 1997

When was the 3 rd ave el demolished by looking at the site i woluld say it was sometime in the late 70's or 80's and why dident they keep it if it would releve pressure on the lexington ave subway??
- Subject: Re: 3 ave EL
- Message Number: 756511
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Thu Jul 10 08:00:00 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]3 ave EL posted by Zack on July 10, 1997 at 03:33:13: Manhattan Section - open ~1878 to 5/12/1955 Bronx Section - open ~1888 to 4/28/1973 The 3rd Avenue el was the last to go in Manhattan. Ninth closed on 6/11/1940, Sixth closed on 12/4/1938, Second on 6/13/1940. It was planned that by the time the El was demolished, or shortly thereafter, the Second Avenue subway would have been completed.
  - Subject: Re: 3 ave EL
  - Message Number: 756518
  - Posted by: Peter Rosa
  - Date: Thu Jul 10 10:58:42 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: 3 ave EL posted by David Pirmann on July 10, 1997 at 08:00:00: The 3rd Avenue EL was demolished soon after it was closed in 1955. From what I've read, the demolition work didn't take long; supposedly it's still possible to see the places where the structure stood, if you look from a high window over the avenue.
    - Subject: Re: 3 ave EL
    - Message Number: 756519
    - Posted by: John
    - Date: Thu Jul 10 13:11:59 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: 3 ave EL posted by David Pirmann on July 10, 1997 at 08:00:00: And man, were they wrong!
      - Subject: Re: 3 ave EL
      - Message Number: 756521
      - Posted by: aaron
      - Date: Thu Jul 10 14:42:01 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: 3 ave EL posted by Peter Rosa on July 10, 1997 at 10:58:42: That is only in Manhattan, not the Bronx
        
        Subject: Re: 3 ave EL
        Message Number: 756550
        Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
        Date: Fri Jul 11 13:13:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: 3 ave EL posted by David Pirmann on July 10, 1997 at 08:00:00: The 1940 date for the 2nd Av. el applies north of 59th St. The south end and the connection accross the Queensboro Bridge lasted about two more years..

Thread title: City Hall Station Renovation News (756516)
Started on Thu Jul 10 10:06:02 1997, by David Pirmann

Subject: City Hall Station Renovation News
Message Number: 756516
Posted by: David Pirmann
Date: Thu Jul 10 10:06:02 1997

Recent rumor about the City Hall Station renovation project is that it is "on hold" due to some recent shakeups/reorganizing at the Transit Museum. Even so, the Museum web site just put up a section about the City Hall project, at: [6] http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/Museum/cityhall.htm --Dave
- Subject: Re: City Hall Station Renovation News
- Message Number: 756520
- Posted by: aaron
- Date: Thu Jul 10 14:22:30 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]City Hall Station Renovation News posted by David Pirmann on July 10, 1997 at 10:06:02: On the subject of the Ciry Hall station, I thought you could ride around the loop to see the station. When I tried a few months ago, two motormen would not let me stay on the train. A few days later, another operator did finally let me stay on...
  - Subject: Re: City Hall Station Renovation News
  - Message Number: 756522
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Thu Jul 10 15:11:39 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: City Hall Station Renovation News posted by aaron on July 10, 1997 at 14:22:30: Well, just because you're "allowed" to do something doesn't mean everyone will let you :-) The same thing happened to me when I was down there once. I was showing someone the station. The first motorman got all suspicious and said no, but the second one was really polite, and even turned out the car lights for us. :-) So it just pays to ask a second time... --Dave

Thread title: Track Maps (756527)
Started on Thu Jul 10 17:29:38 1997, by subway-buff

Subject: Track Maps
Message Number: 756527
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Thu Jul 10 17:29:38 1997

Does anyone have track maps for: MARTA, NJ Transit and SEPTA to Phila. (R7). If so please post or give a link to find the maps. thanks. ps to David Pirman, site host- Excellent site. Your site has taught me more about the system than any book. I especially enjoy your picture collection. Thanks :-)
- Subject: Re: Track Maps
- Message Number: 756661
- Posted by: Andrew Byler
- Date: Mon Jul 14 17:51:57 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Track Maps posted by subway-buff on July 10, 1997 at 17:29:38: I don't know of any availability of these things on the web ... However, I do have c. 1982 Track Charts for SEPTA Commuter Rail and some NJT which I'd be happy to send out to anyone who wants them for a modest fee to cover copying and postage - please contact me at my email address (byler@ce.udel.edu) - the lot will run you about $5 to $10 I imagine. Trains Magazine published the track charts in their article on the Northeast Corridor in 1984 (February issue I believe). SEPTA charts are also available in the book "Delaware Valley Rails" from 1979.

Thread title: #3 Train (756528)
Started on Thu Jul 10 22:09:23 1997, by aaron

Subject: #3 Train
Message Number: 756528
Posted by: aaron
Date: Thu Jul 10 22:09:23 1997

Does anyone know why #3 trains are only a maximum of 9 cars?
- Subject: Re: #3 Train
- Message Number: 756531
- Posted by: Charles
- Date: Thu Jul 10 22:54:32 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]#3 Train posted by aaron on July 10, 1997 at 22:09:23: The # 3 only operates with 9 car R62A's because Lenox terminal cannot accomadate 10 cars and it is not nesscary to cut the trains down to 8.

Thread title: Cab arrangement (756533)
Started on Fri Jul 11 00:29:49 1997, by Zack

Subject: Cab arrangement
Message Number: 756533
Posted by: Zack
Date: Fri Jul 11 00:29:49 1997

whats the diffrence between tranverse and corner cabs and the "cross car cabs the ta is looking in to. what is on the other side of the cab now on the r-30 series? P.S there should be a section on this website devoted to cabs and cab view pictures
- Subject: Re: Cab arrangement
- Message Number: 756535
- Posted by: subway-buff
- Date: Fri Jul 11 04:32:42 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Cab arrangement posted by Zack on July 11, 1997 at 00:29:49: The new cars will have a cab that goes all the way across rather than the little "closet" they use now. Transverse, full-width, etc are diffgerent names for the same thing. On the R3x series question- the other side has conductor controls that the conductor uses to open./close doors.
  - Subject: Re: Cab arrangement
  - Message Number: 756537
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Fri Jul 11 08:18:51 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Cab arrangement posted by Zack on July 11, 1997 at 00:29:49: > P.S there should be a section on this website devoted to cabs and cab view pictures Sounds great.. do you have access to cabs to take these pictures? I sure don't. --Dave
    - Subject: Re: Cab arrangement
    - Message Number: 756573
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Fri Jul 11 22:13:06 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Cab arrangement posted by Zack on July 11, 1997 at 00:29:49: Cross car cab must be a laymans term for a transverse cab. Transverse cabs are usually equal in size (front to back) as the corner cabs but extend from one side of the car to the other. There are no more R-30s so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

Thread title: MTA Capital Plan Approved (756536)
Started on Fri Jul 11 08:16:31 1997, by David Pirmann

Subject: MTA Capital Plan Approved
Message Number: 756536
Posted by: David Pirmann
Date: Fri Jul 11 08:16:31 1997

Last night the MTA Capital Plan was approved which authorizes $7.3 billion in expenditures for the next three years, including $1.4 billion for the R-142's. So it looks like construction of those new cars will start soon. Also part of the plan was $35 million to convert the 8th Avenue Post Office into a new Penn Station for Amtrak trains, and restore many of the 1995 service cuts (the overnight runs of the 42nd St. Shuttle was one of these, decreased numbers of trains and bus service). It didn't restore money for funding cleaning crews.
- Subject: Re: MTA Capital Plan Approved
- Message Number: 756545
- Posted by: Michael Berson
- Date: Fri Jul 11 11:26:42 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]MTA Capital Plan Approved posted by David Pirmann on July 11, 1997 at 08:16:31: Besides the reinstatement of late-night shuttle service, what other services will be reinstated. The only other one I remember is they closed Dean Street on the Frnaklin Avenue shuttle. I can't imagaine they'd re-open it. Mike Berson
  - Subject: Re: MTA Capital Plan Approved
  - Message Number: 756552
  - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
  - Date: Fri Jul 11 13:23:42 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: MTA Capital Plan Approved posted by Michael Berson on July 11, 1997 at 11:26:42: Obviously the usual political games are being played here. A Capital Plan means infrastructure, not operations, so restoring service cuts adds up to the old TA trick of using capital money for operations. I guess that means no progress on a Second Av. Subway or a real solution to the problems in Queens.
    - Subject: Re: MTA Capital Plan Approved
    - Message Number: 756599
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Sun Jul 13 11:31:56 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: MTA Capital Plan Approved posted by Gerry O'Regan on July 11, 1997 at 13:23:42: You are right about politics but not quite correct about who was playing the game. Since over 80% of your ride came from the farebox last year, the government(s) cut their operating subsidies. The MTA had actually been using operating funds to keep capital proograms moving while waiting for capital funding. (The money does actually come seperately). The capital money, as you correctly state, is for capital projects and can not be used otherwise but this will free up operating monies which may be put to good use.
      - Subject: Re: MTA Capital Plan Approved
      - Message Number: 756645
      - Posted by: sandy
      - Date: Mon Jul 14 16:35:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]MTA Capital Plan Approved posted by David Pirmann on July 11, 1997 at 08:16:31: The waste of money by the TA on the SIRT boggles the mind. At Old Town a landscaped area of flowers, trees and wonderful honeysuckles that would have cost a hundred thousand dollars was chainsawed down. The moron who designed the new stations on the SIRT must have been a drug addict in rehab. At Old Town a previously wheelchair accessable platform with shelter was converted to one with stairs exposed to the elements. Progress! On the elevated sections (between Old Town and Dongan Hills) there are no internal safety rails preventing the cars from tumbling off the embankment in the event of a derailment. I agree with another poster that obtaining new cars for the number 1 line in Manhatten requiring passengers to move between moving cars is a criminal action. The South Ferry platform is too short.

Thread title: Subway spotting (756538)
Started on Fri Jul 11 08:39:45 1997, by aaron

Subject: Subway spotting
Message Number: 756538
Posted by: aaron
Date: Fri Jul 11 08:39:45 1997

What is your favorite spot for subway spotting in New York Ciry. Mine is the view of the Coney Island shops from the "F" train as it goes over the Belt Parkway. The best spot in the country however is on the crossover bridge at the Howard Street Terminal in Chicago. Here three lines converge and this bridge affords one a look at the station as well as the yards and shop at Howard Street. Since trains are interchangable on all lines in Chicago, except Skokie Swift(Yellow Line), this vantage point provides a view of almost all types of rolling stock operating on the system. Additionally, trains bound for the main shops in Skokie pass through here.
- Subject: Re: Subway spotting
- Message Number: 756543
- Posted by: Michael Berson
- Date: Fri Jul 11 11:22:40 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Subway spotting posted by aaron on July 11, 1997 at 08:39:45: I personally like the overpass at Coney Island-Stillwell looking North towards the Coney Island yards. This is especially good during yard "put-ins". You also get good views of the B and N trains entering and leaving Stillwell.
  - Subject: Re: Subway spotting
  - Message Number: 756544
  - Posted by: Michael Berson
  - Date: Fri Jul 11 11:22:50 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Subway spotting posted by aaron on July 11, 1997 at 08:39:45: I personally like the overpass at Coney Island-Stillwell looking North towards the Coney Island yards. This is especially good during yard "put-ins". You also get good views of the B and N trains entering and leaving Stillwell.
    - Subject: Re: Subway spotting
    - Message Number: 756546
    - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    - Date: Fri Jul 11 12:38:37 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Subway spotting posted by aaron on July 11, 1997 at 08:39:45: Sounds like a great spot, can you give directions to this out-of-towner in case I have a long layover at O'Hare?
      - Subject: Re: Subway spotting
      - Message Number: 756555
      - Posted by: David Pirmann
      - Date: Fri Jul 11 14:58:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Subway spotting posted by aaron on July 11, 1997 at 08:39:45: One of my favorite places is Broadway-East New York during morning rush hour. Lots of trains on the J and L, and some yard moves as well. That complex is truly immense in size, and is but a wan memory of what it once was, though. Smith/9th is always nice. The pedestrian overpass at Corona Yard is good after morning rush or before evening rush for yard moves.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway spotting
        Message Number: 756621
        Posted by: aaron
        Date: Mon Jul 14 08:42:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway spotting posted by Gary Jacobi on July 11, 1997 at 12:38:37: Take the Blue Line from O'hare to Washington. Walk through underground passageway to Red Line (free transfer). Take Red Line to northern terminus (Howard Street). Allow about one hour. If you are at Howard Street station in rush hour, you can take a Purple Line Express back to Clark/Lake and change to the Blue Line back to O'hare at that station.
        
        Subject: Re: Subway spotting
        Message Number: 756687
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Tue Jul 15 13:07:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Subway spotting posted by aaron on July 11, 1997 at 08:39:45: You mean Tower 18 in Chicago doesn't even get an honourable mention? There's a garage on the corner of Lake & Wells that provides fantastic views of the action. During Rush Hour, you have Green Line service coming from Lake & Harlem approaching from the east/west, Brown (Ravenswood) & Purple (Evanston Express) coming from the north (Evanston runs clockwise and Ravenswood counterclockwise) and Orange (Midway) coming from the south running clockwise. There's a train like every MINUTE it seems during the morning rush. As for the NY subway, my favourites are, in no particular order here: - Coney Island / Stillwell Ave (B/D/F/N) - The area between West 8th St and Stillwell Ave, from the Aquarium/Boardwalk overpass over Surf Ave; the el is double-decked here, D at the top and F at the bottom. - 9th Ave - 39th St (Brooklyn) pedestrian overpass (B, M). Technically, this is no longer legal because of a sign recently put up that the overpass is for authorized use only. It provides employee entrance with the 36th St yard. - E 180 St (Bronx) pedestrian overpass (2/5). You can get views of the 2/5 approaching from 174th St, you have the E 180 St yard (now under reconstruction) and the defunct NYW&B. If it were legal to get up onto the Bronx River Pkwy (I don't think it is), that would provide an even better view of the same area. - East Tremont Av (2/5) facing Bronx Park. Great views of 2/5s rounding a sharp 90 degree curve hading towards E 180 St. Stand at the center of the Bronx-bound platform and take your pick of trains rounding curves in either direction. (In videos I've taken I have nearly an hour of just these 2 stations alone). - Corona Yards (#7) from a pedestrian bridge connecting Flushing Meadow Park with the #7 at Shea Stadium). - Broadway / East NY. The complex elevated junction, now just a memory of what it once was, always amazes me. Clear views of Atlantic Ave and even the #3 train leaving Junius Street. - 168th St & Broadway (1/9). Perch on one of two pedestrian overpasses. High arched ceiling. I just think its pretty cool. - Elder Av (6). Stand at northern portion of Pelham Bay Park platform and get a clear view of the elevated for three stops. Great place just after the morning rush when all the extra rush-hour #6s are heading back to Westchester Yard for their midday siesta. - Myrtle Ave (J,M,Z) facing east. M trains coming from Metropolitan Ave and you have a clear view of J/Z trains coming from East New York. --Mark

Thread title: Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT& Train Modification (756540)
Started on Fri Jul 11 09:51:10 1997, by Philip E. Dominguez

Subject: Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT& Train Modification
Message Number: 756540
Posted by: Philip E. Dominguez
Date: Fri Jul 11 09:51:10 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: A TRAIN DERAILMENT - 7/3/1997 posted by Garfield on July 07, 1997 at 17:00:20: Scince the Crash on the williamsburg Br. All Subway Trains Have been modified to pick-up speed at a lower rate. The modified trains(models) that tend to have the greates performence picking up speed are the R-38 and the R-40(slant) models. The R-46 models have a very slow pick-up and are "Dead" after about 30 mph. At around 30 mph the train will rock as if in the coast position. -Phil

Thread title: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD (756541)
Started on Fri Jul 11 10:11:21 1997, by Philip E. Dominguez

Subject: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD
Message Number: 756541
Posted by: Philip E. Dominguez
Date: Fri Jul 11 10:11:21 1997

I think that the MTA does not need new subway cars. The new subway cars have to many "gadgets" that really are not needed for driving a subway train. I also think that the subway cars cost way to much(1.8 million PER CAR!!). They are inferior to older models. Others may disagree with this but are they as solid as older models(R-32's,R-38's, R-40's,ect)? The R-110b seems to have some sort of problem EVERY time it is out on the road. Also the cars that we have now can last another 20 years if taken care of well. I also think that the MTA should not be getting rid of conducters on its trains(opto service). ] my thoughts on the metro-card I think that the metro card is a wast of MTA funding. Even with the transfer included i prefer a token. I think the metro card is a scam to make us pay more(or less) when traveling. I think the MTA(in 5-15 years) start calculating subway trips by distince(such as The D.C. metro). Post what you think about what i have written. -Phil
- Subject: Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD
- Message Number: 756542
- Posted by: Jerry
- Date: Fri Jul 11 11:16:11 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD posted by Philip E. Dominguez on July 11, 1997 at 10:11:21: In my opinion, metrocards are a major advance, even without the free transfer policy, which as someone who grew up in a two fare zone, is a major advance in and of itself. For the rest of us, the ability to avoid token lines and to carry a pocket full of tokens is a step up. You are right that the card makes fare zones logistically possible; much of the world, e.g. London, Washington, San Fran, thinks this is the logical pricing system. I, for one, think it will remain politically impossible in New York.
  - Subject: Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD
  - Message Number: 756548
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Fri Jul 11 13:00:05 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD posted by Philip E. Dominguez on July 11, 1997 at 10:11:21: Don't worry too much about the card being converted to ride length metering. The existing systems are easily defeated into charging minimum fare for ANY length of trip by using two cards. That's all I will say in deference to Dave's wishes not to describe illegal activity, which this may be. I've tried it once each on two modern systems, and it worked.
    - Subject: Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD
    - Message Number: 756556
    - Posted by: David Pirmann
    - Date: Fri Jul 11 15:02:17 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD posted by Philip E. Dominguez on July 11, 1997 at 10:11:21: Zone fares won't happen too soon-- keep in mind that any zone fare system requires swiping the card on exit. New York's stations simply weren't designed to allow for crowds exiting the platforms. Some stations are dangerous even without the added delay of people swiping their cards at exit. As for the new cars, they might be over-gadgeted, but take a look at the R26 and R29 cars sometime... when you see how rusted the frames are, you'll wonder how the "cabin" part of the car hasn't slid right off...
      - Subject: Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD
      - Message Number: 756562
      - Posted by: sal
      - Date: Fri Jul 11 16:46:17 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD posted by Philip E. Dominguez on July 11, 1997 at 10:11:21: The problem is federal funding and depreciation. That's why new equipment is ordered. The TA is not a system run by normal business arbiters. Decisions are not evaluated against a rational standard. Common sense would dictate a watt-hour meter be installed to see how much current is utilized by the various operators. Nobody knows. Nobody really has a handle on costs. The system is out of control with no accountability. Try to telephone the TA sometime and get connected with a human being. The system is part social welfare system, part jobs program for the handicapped, part model railroad, and part political red herring overseen by a group ,of politicians useless as a screen door on a submarine. Disbanding the wonderful Transit Police organization was plan stupid, but Guliani did it. More carreer opportunity but less transit safety. Multi-drug resistant Tuberculosis is going to be the big problem of the late nineties because of the homeless. Four hundred and ninety people infected at Bath Shipyards because of one infected person. There is no cure. The ACLU refused to allow these derelicts to be removed. Plan STUPID. And the ventilation is inadequate and remains inadequate. At night entire lines are shut for maintenance. This would never have happened twenty years ago. The use of the RR to go to Staten Island via 95th street is now unfeasable because of poor service at odd hours but nobody cares. That's the amazing thing. This Internet site is therapeutic but its like doing something you do in the bathroom into the wind. There is no accountability. Read my lips. Guliani has probably never ridden on a subway except once when he was evading the draft during the Vietnam war. The subway seating plan on the new cars is absurd, as well as the well-intentioned provisions for the handicapped. The wall to wall cabs prevent moving between cars, which is the only way flee a mugger. The people who design these cars live in Long Island and commute by limousine and helicopter. How many people must die falling between cars before the South Ferry Station is extended? The brain damaged TA orders new cars for the line you have to walk between while moving because only the first half opens at south ferry. The life of a toddler doesn't mean much to Jared Lebow and the rest of the just-missed, wannabees and never-wases who run the public relations shop at the TA.
        
        Subject: Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD
        Message Number: 756563
        Posted by: sal
        Date: Fri Jul 11 16:46:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD posted by Philip E. Dominguez on July 11, 1997 at 10:11:21: The problem is federal funding and depreciation. That's why new equipment is ordered. The TA is not a system run by normal business arbiters. Decisions are not evaluated against a rational standard. Common sense would dictate a watt-hour meter be installed to see how much current is utilized by the various operators. Nobody knows. Nobody really has a handle on costs. The system is out of control with no accountability. Try to telephone the TA sometime and get connected with a human being. The system is part social welfare system, part jobs program for the handicapped, part model railroad, and part political red herring overseen by a group ,of politicians useless as a screen door on a submarine. Disbanding the wonderful Transit Police organization was plan stupid, but Guliani did it. More carreer opportunity but less transit safety. Multi-drug resistant Tuberculosis is going to be the big problem of the late nineties because of the homeless. Four hundred and ninety people infected at Bath Shipyards because of one infected person. There is no cure. The ACLU refused to allow these derelicts to be removed. Plan STUPID. And the ventilation is inadequate and remains inadequate. At night entire lines are shut for maintenance. This would never have happened twenty years ago. The use of the RR to go to Staten Island via 95th street is now unfeasable because of poor service at odd hours but nobody cares. That's the amazing thing. This Internet site is therapeutic but its like doing something you do in the bathroom into the wind. There is no accountability. Read my lips. Guliani has probably never ridden on a subway except once when he was evading the draft during the Vietnam war. The subway seating plan on the new cars is absurd, as well as the well-intentioned provisions for the handicapped. The wall to wall cabs prevent moving between cars, which is the only way flee a mugger. The people who design these cars live in Long Island and commute by limousine and helicopter. How many people must die falling between cars before the South Ferry Station is extended? The brain damaged TA orders new cars for the line you have to walk between while moving because only the first half opens at south ferry. The life of a toddler doesn't mean much to Jared Lebow and the rest of the just-missed, wannabees and never-wases who run the public relations shop at the TA.
        
        Subject: Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD
        Message Number: 756567
        Posted by: John
        Date: Fri Jul 11 19:33:01 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD posted by David Pirmann on July 11, 1997 at 15:02:17: Aren't the trains inspected, though, just like automobiles? If the rusting is a safety hazard, why are the trains kept un service? I have never heard of a case where the carbody has slid off the trucks, but according to your description, it looks like it's bound to happen.
        
        Subject: Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD
        Message Number: 756571
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Fri Jul 11 21:55:07 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD posted by John on July 11, 1997 at 19:33:01: Yes, NYCT cars are inspected every 10,000 miles or 66 days, which ever comes first. I think that Dave is exaggerating the corrosion problem slightly but the redbirds do have a serious corrosion problem.
        
        Subject: Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD
        Message Number: 756572
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Fri Jul 11 22:06:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD posted by Philip E. Dominguez on July 11, 1997 at 10:11:21: I think you might be slightly mis-informed. First of all, the cars are needed, despite what you might think. The cars which are beib=ng replaced have reached and in some cases exceded their 35 year life expectancy. Second, maintenance on the older cars becomes overly burdensome and costly. The manufacturers of some of the major components charge exhorbetantly for maintaining obsolete parts, especially when other properties have upgraded. Third, the cost of the new cars will not be $1.8 million as you have stated. they will be about half of that amount. It might interest you to know that the last major overhaul, the R-46 fleet, cost $490,000 per car and that was 7 years ago. What do you think it would cost to overhaul the redbirds? Finally, the R-32s are among the most reliable cars in the fleet but I assure you that they will not last another 20 years. It would not be cost effective to keep running them beyond another 7-9 years and another overhaul would not make sense.
        
        Subject: Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD
        Message Number: 756591
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Sat Jul 12 16:22:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD posted by John on July 11, 1997 at 19:33:01: Well, I guess I was exaggerating a bit, and I'm no expert on car inspections. But yes they are inspected and I doubt it's likely there will be any carbodies sliding off trucks, but some of the R26-36 cars have a serious rust/corrosion problem that make an overhaul pretty much out of the question...
        
        Subject: Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD
        Message Number: 756592
        Posted by: Jim Tesoriero
        Date: Sat Jul 12 18:06:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD posted by Philip E. Dominguez on July 11, 1997 at 10:11:21: New subway cars are needed. The maximum service life is around 40 years. The next to go are the R26 through R33 Redbirds which are now 35+ years old. It's about time for the Metrocard.
        
        Subject: Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD
        Message Number: 756614
        Posted by: Keranu
        Date: Mon Jul 14 05:01:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD posted by Jerry on July 11, 1997 at 11:16:11: I would just like to say -off the subject- that tube fares in London are extortionate, an adult single between two stations in the SAME ZONE (this is about 3 or 4 stations due to the concentric ring zones) is 90 pence!!!! This is over the flat $1.50 you pay in NYC. If you travel from somewhere like Loughton to somewhere like Wimbledon (crossing ten zones boundaries) it can be as much as 4 pounds (over $6). BUT, I think that NYC should have a one-day travel pass thing like London where you buy one ticket (or card) and you can travel on any train anywhere (this includes surface systems like the ex-Network SouthEast in London) in the city for about $5 perhaps (about 4 pounds in London). This caused a boom in which passenger numbers literally doubled in the 80s when it was introduced. Imagine the extra revenue this could produce in NYCs case!
        
        Subject: Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD
        Message Number: 756619
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Mon Jul 14 08:11:28 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD posted by Keranu on July 14, 1997 at 05:01:52: Actually 90 pence is $1.52 as of today's exchange rate. As you know, London has the benefit of multi-zone day and week passes that can be quite a bargain especially for a tourist from another country. Maybe you didn't realize that if you buy the card before you go to London at one of the Brit Rail tourist offices, it's much cheaper than to buy your farecard when you get there. $40 can get you a full six-zone 7-day pass (which is good on the Underground, busses, Docklands LR, and ex-British Rail lines within the six zones of Greater London). For a single tourist, you really can't beat that. If you're travelling as a group cabbing it might be more affordable.
        
        Subject: Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD
        Message Number: 756638
        Posted by: Philip E.D.
        Date: Mon Jul 14 13:53:22 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD posted by Steve on July 11, 1997 at 22:06:20: Dear Steve, I think you might be slightly mis-informed about these new cars. These new cars will be costing 1.8 million $ each. Also some of the red-birds have to be replaced but not with the models the MTA is buying. The MTA has to go back to the drawing board with these models.
        
        Subject: Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD
        Message Number: 756702
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Tue Jul 15 22:38:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD posted by Philip E.D. on July 14, 1997 at 13:53:22: I don't think I'm mis-informed at all. Perhaps you'd like to share the source of your information.
        
        Subject: Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD
        Message Number: 756731
        Posted by: Keranu
        Date: Thu Jul 17 08:17:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD posted by David Pirmann on July 14, 1997 at 08:11:28: Cool! I'll try that next time I'm down there (Sunday) on my way to gorgeous sunkist France!! Will have to negotiate the Northern Line ("nightmare line") first though!
        
        Subject: Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD
        Message Number: 756734
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Thu Jul 17 08:42:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD posted by Keranu on July 17, 1997 at 08:17:51: Oops, I just went back and re-read what I wrote. My U.S.-centric view left out part of the information about the Travelcard. The cheap one is called the "Visitor Travelcard" and can be bought at Brit Rail offices OUTSIDE THE U.K. (for instance the one in New York at 5th & 45th). You brits can't get the el-cheapo card s'far as I know. -Dave
        
        Subject: Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD
        Message Number: 756737
        Posted by: Keranu
        Date: Thu Jul 17 10:10:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD posted by David Pirmann on July 17, 1997 at 08:42:57: WHAT! That's dead strange. come to think of it, I think I read about it a while back in some leaflet and thought it was strange then too. Ever been on London tube? Great website by the way!
        
        Subject: Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD
        Message Number: 756739
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Thu Jul 17 11:06:47 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD posted by Keranu on July 17, 1997 at 10:10:30: I've been to London twice (11/96 and 4/97). In fact we have a page of London pictures on the site (http://www.nycsubway.org/london/). The people at the LT site and the Jubliee Line Extension site have been really nice. The JLE people sent me a whole package of materials. Engineering reports, environmental reports, maps, etc. I met up with a Piccadilly line motorman who took me around and showed me some cool stuff. The LU has a strange sort of appeal to it for me being so used to NYC. I love the doors on the old cars-- so solid sounding :) The new rolling stock looks nice-- a touch of color that NYC desperately needs. And who can forget "mind the gap... mind the gap". In November I'm going to be in Paris for a week (tentatively). Maybe I'll sneak back over to London for a day's riding. -Dave p.s. Keranu- I tried to mail this to you but it bounced saying your email address is an unknown username...
        
        Subject: Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD
        Message Number: 756751
        Posted by: Bingo
        Date: Thu Jul 17 19:44:53 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Are New Subway Cars Needed & my thoughts on the METRO CARD posted by sal on July 11, 1997 at 16:46:21: I totally agree. Giuliani is doing the same thing for workfare as well. Why don't politicians have the gall to think about the people they serve before they go out and hurt them? And handicap-devices on trains are only good for handicap-friendly stations.

Thread title: Problems on the Subway (756553)
Started on Fri Jul 11 14:27:58 1997, by Chris

Subject: Problems on the Subway
Message Number: 756553
Posted by: Chris
Date: Fri Jul 11 14:27:58 1997

In my opinion, there are still tons of problems on the New York Subways. For example, just a few weeks ago, my friend was mugged. I would like to know, from the various people's opinions, what would be the biggest problem on the NY subway today, and a feasible mean to solving it. ThanX!
- Subject: Re: Problems on the Subway
- Message Number: 756554
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Fri Jul 11 14:55:29 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Problems on the Subway posted by Chris on July 11, 1997 at 14:27:58: The biggest problem? Service reliability, without a doubt. There may be some debate about the reasons, but service on most lines has become notably less reliable in the past year or two. Waits for trains seem to get longer and longer. Solve the reliability issue, and other problems will seem less severe.
  - Subject: Re: Problems on the Subway
  - Message Number: 756557
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Fri Jul 11 15:13:26 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Problems on the Subway posted by Chris on July 11, 1997 at 14:27:58: Crime is a New York Problem, not a Subway Problem, IMHO. There's no seperate Transit Police force anymore... which might be a problem. Complain to the mayor :) --Dave
    - Subject: Re: Problems on the Subway
    - Message Number: 756558
    - Posted by: george
    - Date: Fri Jul 11 15:20:29 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Problems on the Subway posted by Chris on July 11, 1997 at 14:27:58: Basically Chris, the way to avoid being mugged is to carry a gun. God made men, colt made them equal. Better to be judged by twelve men than carried by six. My personal preference is a S & W model 59. The subway isn't that dangerous though, and I have been on every station at every hour of the day or night. The problems are that of a bureacracy, and can only be solved by contracting out to private sector forces. On the Staten Island Rapid Transit, for example, although the train has one destination twelve electronic destination signs costing ten thousand dollars each were installed at Saint George. The perfect solution to which no known problem existed. Likewise the adequate signaling system on SIRT is being "upgraded" for another million and a half. One train meets one boat. One track out. One track in. Simple? Two million was spent for fencing along the right of way, preventing emergency crews from reaching passengers in the event of a wreck, and doing nothing to protect kids, who go under them. The 42nd street shuttle, which I use to work at night, shuts down at midnight. The TA has a highly paid bureacracy for public relations that couldn't find it's behind with both hands. Light rail has been ignored, and a perfectly good carbarn on 52nd street ideal for the 42nd street cross town trolley was torn down this year to sell the site to political patronage real estate interests. The cleaning crews on the subway are overpaid and underworked. The wages paid to employees verge on insanity. TA employees are good people and I am for the working man, but somebody has to pay for everything. There is no free ride. The boxing of the emergency pull cords on the IRT, a moronic idea and will cost a life. I know because I once saved a woman being dragged by pulling such a cord and I would never have been able to do it in time if the cord had been boxed. At the risk of being a luddite, I have to say the Metrocard was not needed and again, the perfect solution to which no known problem existed. Take a ride to Neward and ride the excellent trolley line out of the AMTRAK station using fifty year old PCC's to see what can be done on a budget.
      - Subject: Re: Problems on the Subway
      - Message Number: 756569
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Fri Jul 11 21:42:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Problems on the Subway posted by David Pirmann on July 11, 1997 at 15:13:26: Well said Dave but crime is not just a NY problem. It's a problem of our national society. However, Chris should realize that the odds of getting mugged on the subway system are less than half of what they are in NY proper. AND NY City is safer than more than 100 other major US Cities including Indianapolis Ind. A mugging on the subways is by no means a common occurrence. This, of course, is of no consolation to the victims of street crime.
        
        Subject: Re: Problems on the Subway
        Message Number: 756570
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Fri Jul 11 21:51:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Problems on the Subway posted by Peter Rosa on July 11, 1997 at 14:55:29: Service reliability is the problem? Where do you get your information? It may come as a surprise to you but service reliability is at an all-time high. One nationally recognized measure of performance is MDBF is among the highest in the nation, 68,238 miles between breakdowns. This is 10 times the MDBF of 15 years ago. On time performance during AM & PM peak hours is over 94%. Overall, on time performance is 79% but this includes delays due to track maintenance and construction. So what aspects of reliability are you speaking of?
        
        Subject: Re: Problems on the Subway
        Message Number: 756593
        Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
        Date: Sat Jul 12 18:17:01 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Problems on the Subway posted by Steve on July 11, 1997 at 21:51:00: I get the feeling that if the train you wanted doesn't arrive at the station you are at within one minute of the time you get there, the service is unreliable. This is, of course, an impossible standard to meet. However, service reliability is also far more complicated than simple car reliability. Then there are things beyond the control of the shops, such as the signal system, various emergency repair projects or those people who delay trains by standing in the door while three flights up, their friend fumbles in her purse for the token she knew she had. Things of this nature are beyond the capability of the TA to control, but have their effect on reliability. Spot crowds, for example a Yankees game getting out, can also impact service by increasing station dwell times, not only at 161-River, but at subsequent stops as people fight their way out of the crowded cars. Perfect service is impossible, but the important measurement to the shop is missed trips, while to the customer it is how long he waits. (Long headways during off peak hours are often perceived as delays or unreliable service.) Even the door blocker knows that the train in the station will get him to his destination before than the next one down the tunnel, and HE hasn't been delayed by holding up the train! The bottom line, improve service - possible, eliminate delays - impossible. Gerry
        
        Subject: Re: Problems on the Subway
        Message Number: 756595
        Posted by: subway-buff
        Date: Sat Jul 12 23:00:48 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Problems on the Subway posted by Chris on July 11, 1997 at 14:27:58: Sure there are suprises (delays, breakdowns, door holding, etc.) but how long do you keep your carr before trasding or repairing. Many of the lines are 50 years or even up to almost 100 years old! This is New York. The inconvenince now will lead to a better system (even if no new lines) when the rebuild is completed. Long live the subways. ps- have you ever been in Manhattan during a subway strike ! Gridlock during presidetial visits is nothing compared to no subways! If you ignore the subway it *will* go away and NYC will be worse it.
        
        Subject: Re: Problems on the Subway
        Message Number: 756613
        Posted by: Keranu
        Date: Mon Jul 14 04:45:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Problems on the Subway posted by Steve on July 11, 1997 at 21:42:59: I agree, I used the subway everywhere when I visited NYC and loved it, my paranoid fears were very unjustified, there was an article in the newspaper that some New Yorkers are annoyed that NYC is so much safer than it used to be because they have nothing to brag about. NYC isn't the crime-scene anymore. Is this sadism a reality? Actually, here in Glasgow, we brag about being the most crime-ridden city in the UK (that's not official).
        
        Subject: Re: Problems on the Subway
        Message Number: 756636
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Mon Jul 14 13:23:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Problems on the Subway posted by Chris on July 11, 1997 at 14:27:58: Yes, there are many problems with the subway. I really try to keep an optimistic view when it comes to the subway (And life in general). I feel that the subway system (as well as the buses) have come a long way in recent years. Sometimes it seems like yesterday when the fleet was covered in graffiti, trains broke down more often, numerous track fires derailments etc. My point is that there are still problems, but I'm quite thankful for the improvements. We get a lot for a buck and fifty cents.
        
        Subject: Re: Problems on the Subway
        Message Number: 756669
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Jul 14 23:01:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Problems on the Subway posted by Keranu on July 14, 1997 at 04:45:16: Since I always found the UK a very civilized society, I'm sure that Glasgow has far less crime than some of the 100 or so US cities with crime rates greater than NYC. Did that make sense???
        
        Subject: Re: Problems on the Subway
        Message Number: 756695
        Posted by: Joesph
        Date: Tue Jul 15 17:47:10 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Problems on the Subway posted by Chris on July 11, 1997 at 14:27:58: In summer heat the stations have totally unacceptable ventilation. The use of trains themselves to push air would solve part of the problem and could be accomplished easily be boxing in some girders on some lines, and adding small extensions at one end to make the train closer fitting and the subway train would act as a piston. This would also slow the train and reduce brake wear. Center for disease control recommendations are that circulation is the number one way to reduce hazard from multi-drug resistant tuberculosis. This is the NUMBER ONE problem facing the transit system and is not being addressed by the morons on the Transit Board. Take bets on this prophesy. The METROCARD was a waste of tax money. Give the chimps another bananna.
        
        Subject: Re: Problems on the Subway
        Message Number: 756725
        Posted by: M.J.S.
        Date: Wed Jul 16 19:52:34 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Problems on the Subway posted by Joesph on July 15, 1997 at 17:47:10: The tokens are a waste of tax money in the long run.
        
        Subject: Re: Problems on the Subway
        Message Number: 756726
        Posted by: Joe Camel
        Date: Wed Jul 16 20:01:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Problems on the Subway posted by george on July 11, 1997 at 15:20:29: Once again, in the long run tokens waste money, Street running LRT helps nothing and is less flexible than busses, how hard is it to open a box and let an alarm sound? it sure helped alot of people by lowering false alarms. SIRT signals are old and antiquated and limit train capabilities and require lots of maintenance due to age, so do the Newark PCC's and the RedBirds. There isnt enough demand for cross-town service in the middle of the night to make running the shuttle cost-effective especially with the 1995 funding cuts which the MTA has no control over.
        
        Subject: Re: Problems on the Subway
        Message Number: 756732
        Posted by: Keranu
        Date: Thu Jul 17 08:20:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Problems on the Subway posted by Steve on July 14, 1997 at 23:01:30: I don't know, maybe I reckon Glasgow is worse than it really is, its just that the news is so much crime-focused in Scotland and crime is still rising here. A person in the grade above me was murdered a few months back after a football match between Glasgow's rival soccer teams: Rangers and Celtic. It is this bigotry which actually extends to religion that gives Glasgow its crime problem.
        
        Subject: Re: Problems on the Subway
        Message Number: 756747
        Posted by: John
        Date: Thu Jul 17 13:47:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Problems on the Subway posted by Joe Camel on July 16, 1997 at 20:01:42: Since you mentioned it, the Newark PCCs will start being retired in 1999. They will be replaced with a new LRV manufactured by Kawasaki of Japan.
        
        Subject: Re: Problems on the Subway
        Message Number: 756762
        Posted by: Kevin Keith
        Date: Mon Jul 21 14:22:55 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Problems on the Subway posted by Chris on July 11, 1997 at 14:27:58: I've been living in NYC for four years and have seen not only the subway, but the entire city improve in one way or another. Delays on the subways are inevitable...(just try driving w/o delays!). I think METROCARD is a no-brainer good idea...welcome to the 21st century, NY...get over the loss of the token. Load your card up $20 bucks and use it...no long lines!!
        
        Subject: Re: Problems on the Subway
        Message Number: 756764
        Posted by: shorty thomas
        Date: Mon Jul 21 15:35:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Problems on the Subway posted by Kevin Keith on July 21, 1997 at 14:22:55: Yeah Yeah Yeah for the Metrocard. As a two fare zone rider for the past 6 years this is the brightest idea NYCTA has ever had and boy does it save a buck. I never stood in long lines unecesarily as I learned early on in life to buy tokens on the way out, not into work or on weekends. Metro card is cool. Get use to it New York and quit crying...

Thread title: La Guardia and subway (756560)
Started on Fri Jul 11 16:01:17 1997, by Ken Rubin

Subject: La Guardia and subway
Message Number: 756560
Posted by: Ken Rubin
Date: Fri Jul 11 16:01:17 1997

I'm trying to recall something I'd heard second-hand about the involvement of the sainted Fiorello with the subway...Something to the effect that the mayor was in cahoots with Firestone and other auto-related businesses. He therefore tried to sour merchants on the subway, reminding them that the noise and smell of the elevated would discourage people from coming in to their stores. The merchants bought it and voted against the subway, whereupon elevated *roads* were built instead! Can anybody clarify this anecdote? I asked at the NYC Subway Museum, but the guide didn't seem to knwo what I was talking about.
- Subject: Re: La Guardia and subway
- Message Number: 756565
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Fri Jul 11 18:51:27 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]La Guardia and subway posted by Ken Rubin on July 11, 1997 at 16:01:17: Never heard Fiorello attached to the infamous "National Lines" fable before. The truth is, GM, Firestone, et al bought up trolley lines because their owners were dumping them, and the corporations forsaw that SOMETHING had to take their place, so why not get in on the ground floor and make a killing! This is the crime they were judged guilty; nobody has ever proved they conspired to destroy transit.
  - Subject: Re: La Guardia and subway
  - Message Number: 756578
  - Posted by: Zack
  - Date: Sat Jul 12 00:38:33 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: La Guardia and subway posted by Gary Jacobi on July 11, 1997 at 18:51:27: but it did reduse and disuse the service that was already in place and that haunts still today, P.S there is a show on pbs calle point of view and ther is a show titled Road To Ruin i would suggst yoiu watch it if you ever get the chance to
    - Subject: Re: La Guardia and subway
    - Message Number: 756579
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Sat Jul 12 01:22:11 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]La Guardia and subway posted by Ken Rubin on July 11, 1997 at 16:01:17: I am not sure but I think you have your history coastally confused. If memory serves me correctly, It was government officials on the west coast who conspired with auto & tire makers to force the Pacific Electric and other LA Electric lines into bankruptcy.
      - Subject: Re: La Guardia and subway
      - Message Number: 756600
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Sun Jul 13 12:19:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: La Guardia and subway posted by Zack on July 12, 1997 at 00:38:33: Yes, I agree, but the tendency to overstate the story has always disturbed me. I have heard and read on several occasions that these corporations were convicted of a crime which is suggested to be the destruction of a healthy Trolley system nationwide. They were in fact convicted of profiting in restraint of trade. Did they do us a great disservice? Absolutely, but many, many decisions made by businesses in search of profit turn out to be harmful. Mr. Gates comes to mind.

Thread title: TTC Websites (756561)
Started on Fri Jul 11 16:38:18 1997, by Brian W

Subject: TTC Websites
Message Number: 756561
Posted by: Brian W
Date: Fri Jul 11 16:38:18 1997

Does anyone know any REALLY GOOD TTC Websites?
- Subject: Re: TTC Websites
- Message Number: 756750
- Posted by: Bingo
- Date: Thu Jul 17 19:20:00 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]TTC Websites posted by Brian W on July 11, 1997 at 16:38:18: No.

Thread title: Fresh Pond Yard (756574)
Started on Fri Jul 11 23:15:04 1997, by Zack

Subject: Fresh Pond Yard
Message Number: 756574
Posted by: Zack
Date: Fri Jul 11 23:15:04 1997

is Fresh Pond Yard still used and what line(s) was/is it on???
- Subject: Re: Fresh Pond Yard
- Message Number: 756575
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Fri Jul 11 23:47:36 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Fresh Pond Yard posted by Zack on July 11, 1997 at 23:15:04: Fresh pond yard is used for storage & cleaning of trains on the M line.

Thread title: Shuttle Service (756576)
Started on Sat Jul 12 00:29:43 1997, by Zack

Subject: Shuttle Service
Message Number: 756576
Posted by: Zack
Date: Sat Jul 12 00:29:43 1997

Whats so special about the culver shuttle. and why arnt the other shuttles coverd more like the culver shuttle????
- Subject: Re: Shuttle Service
- Message Number: 756590
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Sat Jul 12 16:15:34 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Shuttle Service posted by Zack on July 12, 1997 at 00:29:43: Well, the Culver Shuttle has it's on page on this site primarily because it doesn't exist any more! We had enough photos and there's enough interest in demolished/abandoned stuff that I thought it fit well as it's own page.

Thread title: modified lo V's (756577)
Started on Sat Jul 12 00:32:33 1997, by Zack

Subject: modified lo V's
Message Number: 756577
Posted by: Zack
Date: Sat Jul 12 00:32:33 1997

how many of the lo v's were modidfied for the BMT/IND. And witch lines did they serve on and what happend to them??? (i have been on a posting binge latey) :)
- Subject: Re: modified lo V's
- Message Number: 756626
- Posted by: Lou
- Date: Mon Jul 14 10:30:25 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]modified lo V's posted by Zack on July 12, 1997 at 00:32:33: I think maybe there was one small train-set. They served exclusively on the Culver Shuttle (i.e. 9th St Brooklyn to Ditmas).
  - Subject: Re: modified lo V's
  - Message Number: 756628
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Mon Jul 14 11:12:54 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: modified lo V's posted by Lou on July 14, 1997 at 10:30:25: I've only seen pictures of four cars. But they also ran on the Franklin. [7][LINK].

Thread title: R44 wreck (756580)
Started on Sat Jul 12 01:57:30 1997, by Mark

Subject: R44 wreck
Message Number: 756580
Posted by: Mark
Date: Sat Jul 12 01:57:30 1997

The R44 A train wreck was the control unit car of a four car configuration, which means half a train is lost. Does any one knows if the TA have any plan to salvage and rebuilt this car or is it a total lost?
- Subject: Re: R44 wreck
- Message Number: 756581
- Posted by: Zack
- Date: Sat Jul 12 02:09:14 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]R44 wreck posted by Mark on July 12, 1997 at 01:57:30: probally they will be split up and used as extra cars
  - Subject: Re: R44 wreck
  - Message Number: 756584
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Sat Jul 12 08:09:40 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]R44 wreck posted by Mark on July 12, 1997 at 01:57:30: Car #5282 was damaged beyond repair. In order to remove it, it was cut up and placed into flatcars. I'm sure that the fate of the other 3 cars has not yet been determined.
    - Subject: Re: R44 wreck
    - Message Number: 756634
    - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
    - Date: Mon Jul 14 13:11:24 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: R44 wreck posted by Steve on July 12, 1997 at 08:09:40: Does this means that the other cars (I guess they are 5281, 5283 & 5284) may have to just sit unused. I guess it would be good if there was another A-unit available now
      - Subject: Re: R44 wreck
      - Message Number: 756668
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Mon Jul 14 22:57:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: R44 wreck posted by Wayne Johnson on July 14, 1997 at 13:11:24: No decision has been made yet

Thread title: - - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - - (756582)
Started on Sat Jul 12 04:55:13 1997, by RAC93

Subject: - - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - -
Message Number: 756582
Posted by: RAC93
Date: Sat Jul 12 04:55:13 1997

I just wanted to say thank you to Mr. Pirmann for having an awesome Website. I can always find something interesting that I never knew about the NYC Subways! I am 21 Years old and I lived in NYC until late 1989 so I recall the subways pretty well. (I now live in L.A.) I do not think that Mr. Pirmann gets enough credit for all his hard work. I don't know of any other website that is even close to this one for details and awesome historical stuff. Great pictures! I bet Mr. Pirmann could be rich if this was a pay site... Thank You again! RAC93
- Subject: Re: - - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - -
- Message Number: 756583
- Posted by: Zack
- Date: Sat Jul 12 05:31:28 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]- - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - - posted by RAC93 on July 12, 1997 at 04:55:13: Thank you Mr.Pirmann for haveing such an infromative web site an the ne york city subway
  - Subject: Re: - - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - -
  - Message Number: 756587
  - Posted by: P.A.R.
  - Date: Sat Jul 12 12:50:39 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]- - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - - posted by RAC93 on July 12, 1997 at 04:55:13: I'll double that!!! THANKS Mr. Pirmann!!!
    - Subject: Re: - - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - -
    - Message Number: 756589
    - Posted by: David Pirmann
    - Date: Sat Jul 12 16:13:37 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]- - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - - posted by RAC93 on July 12, 1997 at 04:55:13: What is this Mr. business? :) You make me sound old! But seriously, thanks! --Dave
      - Subject: Re: - - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - -
      - Message Number: 756594
      - Posted by: subway-buffsubway-buff@msn.com
      - Date: Sat Jul 12 22:56:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]- - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - - posted by RAC93 on July 12, 1997 at 04:55:13: I also ewxtend by compliments for a superb site. I run a fledgling computer business and one day hope to be a thrivig business. A BBS like This one from Mr. Pirmann gives me excellent ideas (not to compete, of course) but for my own page if I ever do one when I learn HTML. Thnaks, Mr. Pirmann, or David if you prefer. I grew up riding the subways and all my years and all the tours I have been on have not taught me as much as this BBS. Thank you, thank you,. ....
        
        Subject: Re: - - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - -
        Message Number: 756601
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Sun Jul 13 12:23:17 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]- - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - - posted by RAC93 on July 12, 1997 at 04:55:13: I think Dave is already rich for having come up with the idea of this site, and managing it in such a professional and ethical manner.
        
        Subject: Re: - - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - -
        Message Number: 756625
        Posted by: Lou
        Date: Mon Jul 14 10:27:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]- - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - - posted by RAC93 on July 12, 1997 at 04:55:13: that goes double (or isit Triplex??) for me too!!!
        
        Subject: Re: - - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - -
        Message Number: 756627
        Posted by: Mark Greenwald
        Date: Mon Jul 14 11:11:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]- - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - - posted by RAC93 on July 12, 1997 at 04:55:13: Dave does have a great site--No arguement there, BUT, I think the "thanks" shouls also be extended to the contributors (like Mr. Adler). I must admit, on my bookmarks, this site is the first one listed. I also want to extend my thanks to David for being so "approachable". He's very easy to contact and also very accomidating with ideas. IT IS BY FAR THE BEST OVERALL SITE COMMITTED TO SUBWAYS THAT'S OUT THERE!!!!! DON'T CHANGE A THING!!!
        
        Subject: Re: - - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - -
        Message Number: 756629
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Mon Jul 14 11:17:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: - - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - - posted by Mark Greenwald on July 14, 1997 at 11:11:05: Mark is right, the contributors deserve recognition too. If you haven't already read it, a list of them is at [7]Credits. Don't change a thing? Well I like to hope improvements are welcome :) And, as Mark said, ideas are welcome! If you don't want to post in public about them, use the [8]Feedback Form.
        
        Subject: Re: - - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - -
        Message Number: 756639
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Mon Jul 14 13:53:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]- - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - - posted by RAC93 on July 12, 1997 at 04:55:13: Agreed. Both Dave and the NYC Subway Resources web site are world-class. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: - - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - -
        Message Number: 756692
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Tue Jul 15 14:30:32 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]- - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - - posted by RAC93 on July 12, 1997 at 04:55:13: Yep, it's a terrific site ... definitely one of my favorites!

Thread title: Westchester Right of Way in Westchester County (756586)
Started on Sat Jul 12 12:19:01 1997, by Andrew Byler

Subject: Westchester Right of Way in Westchester County
Message Number: 756586
Posted by: Andrew Byler
Date: Sat Jul 12 12:19:01 1997

I know that the MTA own all od the old new York, Westchester, and Boston right of way in the Bronx from 132nd St. to the city line north of Dyre Ave., and has high hopes of using it someday to connect the to the 2nd Ave. Subway. What is the status of its right of way in Westchester County up to White Plains, however? I've heard that through Mount Vernon, much of it was filled in, and in Scarsdale, it is now the Heathcote Bypass. What about New Rochelle and White Plains? I guess the basic question is could the line be rebuilt easily, without having to go through too many "takings" of private property? The reason for asking is that the Regional Plan Association seems bent on hooking the 2nd Ave. Subway up to several commuter lines, including the Atlantic Branhc of the LIRR and the Port Washington Branch of the same. I was wondering how prohibitive it would be to rebuild the Westchester and connect it to this system, seeing as it splits neatly the New Haven and Harlem branches of Metro North. It would make good sense if it could be done reasonably, as the 2nd Ave line is to be New York's first high speed subway (70 mph track speeds), and thus would mesh nicely with a similar high speed line in the suburbs. Call it a Hutchinson River Parkway relief route to build support. If you need some sort of parallel to comapre this with, in terms of practicality (lets ignore Bart and Metro like systems), think of PATCO in my hometown of Philly, which is a similar suburbs to city link. While we're on the subject, could similar work be done with the now abandoned Putnam division on the opposite side of the county? Admittedly, it was not designed very well, unlike the Westchester, but I suppose the right of way has some potential. One other note - I know it would be expensive, and money is not available right now, but whre there is a will there is a way. Naysaying will not bring about a rail transit version of Robert Moses to help New York (interesting aside - I don't suppose Moses would have gotten into so much trouble had he been building subways instead of highways; with subways, he would never have run into his Tremont problems, and might still be considered a hero). Andy
- Subject: Re: Westchester Right of Way in Westchester County
- Message Number: 756635
- Posted by: Peter Rosa
- Date: Mon Jul 14 13:19:01 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Westchester Right of Way in Westchester County posted by Andrew Byler on July 12, 1997 at 12:19:01: Some months ago I checked out the old Westchester right-of-way in Scarsdale and White Plains. As far as I could tell, the section to the north of Heathcoat Bypass is a sort of linear park. I didn't have time to check out the top part of the ROW in White Plains, however, which I believe ends at the Westchester shopping mall.

Thread title: Health problems on the Subway (756596)
Started on Sun Jul 13 09:39:39 1997, by Wei

Subject: Health problems on the Subway
Message Number: 756596
Posted by: Wei
Date: Sun Jul 13 09:39:39 1997

From the various studies done by scientists, the NYC subway system, while not the most crowded, has the poorest health measures of all the subway systems in the world. As a subway rider personally, I really don't think the air quality is that good, and I see a lot trash on the platform all the time. What are some measures that can be done about this?
- Subject: Re: Health problems on the Subway
- Message Number: 756597
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Sun Jul 13 11:17:25 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Health problems on the Subway posted by Wei on July 13, 1997 at 09:39:39:
  - Subject: Re: Health problems on the Subway
  - Message Number: 756598
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Sun Jul 13 11:24:53 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Health problems on the Subway posted by Wei on July 13, 1997 at 09:39:39: Well, there's the new Vacuum Train to keep the roadbed clean. But until you get people not to urinate or defecate on the trains and stations, until you get people to dispose of their refuse properly, until you get people to respect their environment, then you'll have the conditions that you have. It's a societal problem - just like the homeless problem. These are not unique to the subways. It's just that you are in a closed environment on the subway and have to look at it. You can't turn your head.

Thread title: Crime on subway/el systems (756602)
Started on Sun Jul 13 15:20:26 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Crime on subway/el systems
Message Number: 756602
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Sun Jul 13 15:20:26 1997

About 10 years ago, after taking pictures from a West Philadelphia El station platform, I got mugged while waiting for the train. The funny thing about it is that my attackers didn't take my camera, all they got was my wallet with only $10.00. Luckily, I didn't get hurt. Even though this incident occured during early evening, as it was getting dark, I've been very cautious when it comes to taking pictures on the subway or El since the attack. I've also started carrying MACE whenever I go into the city. Of the 4 cities with Els (New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, and Boston), can anyone tell me where and when it is safe to take pictures of, and from elevated structures and stations, without taking the risk of getting mugged or held up? Also, can anyone tell me what areas to avoid completely in the cities mentioned? As I've noticed that most elevateds run through bad neighborhoods.
- Subject: Re: Crime on subway/el systems
- Message Number: 756603
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Sun Jul 13 16:21:18 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Crime on subway/el systems posted by Timothy on July 13, 1997 at 15:20:26: Maybe you just got unlucky. Plus, crime as a whole was a lot higher 10 years ago, especially in New York, than it is now. I haven't felt or been threatened in the past few years taking pictures or riding the subway anywhere. There are places I wouldn't leave the system or flash my camera around, though. Some guidelines, though: the obvious one, don't look too flashy, scared, or unsure of where you are. Ride and photograph during rush hour and NOT in the mid afternoon when schools get out. Crowds of kids are worse than crowds of adults at any time of the day. Travel with a friend- two sets of eyes are better than one especially if you're preoccupied with taking pictures. --Dave
  - Subject: Re: Crime on subway/el systems
  - Message Number: 756606
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Sun Jul 13 21:02:07 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Crime on subway/el systems posted by Timothy on July 13, 1997 at 15:20:26: First of all, use pepper spray. It's far more effective than mace, especially if it's rated at 2,000,000 SHU. Of course with either pepper spray or mace, make sure your attacker is down wind from you or else you'll be helping him (or her) instead of yourself. Second, except for the area in the South Bronx, none of the El lines on the NYCT run through especially bad neighbor- hoods. Neighborhoods are not inately bad. It's their bad citizens who make it bad and they are quite mobile. They can and do turn up in good neighborhoods because as Willy Sutton once said, "That's where the money is.".
    - Subject: Re: Crime on subway/el systems
    - Message Number: 756615
    - Posted by: Keranu
    - Date: Mon Jul 14 05:06:47 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Crime on subway/el systems posted by Timothy on July 13, 1997 at 15:20:26: A friend of mine said that he watched a guy at 110 St on the #1,9 line taking photos right at the edge of the platform and he had to hold himself back from pushing the guy onto the tracks. He isn't particularly evil so I suggest you definitely keep away from the edge of the platform. I'm personally too paranoid to even make eye-contact with people on the subway and would definitely never dream of taking photos. You are very bold, I know there are many others out there.
      - Subject: Re: Crime on subway/el systems
      - Message Number: 756617
      - Posted by: John
      - Date: Mon Jul 14 06:05:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Crime on subway/el systems posted by David Pirmann on July 13, 1997 at 16:21:18: There are kids, and there are kids. Most of them are harmless, but there are a few that are just rotton. Especially some of the high school students. They invade the train like a bunch of wild animals, they are loud, rude, inconsiderate, have the filthiest mouths I ever heard, they hog the seats, blare rap music from enormous boom-boxes, swing from the bars and/or straps, and generally, have worse conduct than the animals in the Bronx Zoo. However . . . If you happen to be a high-school student who uses mass transit, I am describing only a handful of these people. Be advised that I do not stereotype all high school students like this. I have also seen many (and much more, by the way) smart, intellegent, and well-behaved high school students on the train also, and the majority of students are very intellegent, but just act silly (just like I did when I was in high school). So if you are a high school student, I apologize if I insulted anybody, but I am just describing what I sometimes see. Remember . . . I was in high school too, and I have to admit, there are some things I did during those 4 years that I'm not to fond of, either.
        
        Subject: Re: Crime on subway/el systems
        Message Number: 756624
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Mon Jul 14 09:01:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Crime on subway/el systems posted by Timothy on July 13, 1997 at 15:20:26: Some elevated sections of the New York subway that are reasonably safe for photography would be the 7 train in Queens, the N in Astoria, and the 1 train in the Bronx. In any event, crime on the NY subway
        
        Subject: Re: Crime on subway/el systems
        Message Number: 756637
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Mon Jul 14 13:49:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Crime on subway/el systems posted by Timothy on July 13, 1997 at 15:20:26: I've also been taking photos (and videos) of the NYC Subway for several years now. Fortunately, I never had a problem. Some areas I've gone to are E 180 St (2/5), East Tremont Ave (2/5), Brighton Beach, Ocean Pkwy, W 8 St, Stillwell Ave (B,D,N,Q), Broadway Junction/East NY (J,M,Z) and various other places. Just don't be flashy when you're taking your photos and keep an eye over your shoulder and you'll be OK. Sometimes you may get a silly look from NYC Transit employees but when you tell them what you're doing they usually warm up to you. And don't do anything stupid like go where you aren't supposed to go. That's just looking for trouble. I'm not an expert on Chicago but as a NY'er having recently returned from there, just about anywhere on the Loop during the day is fine. There are multi-level garages that have what I call "railfan floors" where you can get perfect views of trains circling the Loop without having to board the trains. There's one conveniently located right at Tower 18! (The only one that comes close on the NY system is a multi-level garage just outside Queensboro Plaza). I'm sure these garages were NOT built with railfans in mind but since there are so many of them, I'm gonna guess the architect was a railfan! Other places in Chicago I'd highly recommend for photos - Howard Street and yard from the bridge connecting the Evanston and Dan-Ryan bound platforms, Loyola (strategically placed garage!), and Belmont from the overhead pedestrian bridge. I even took some video at night on the Loop and wasn't bothered by anyone. --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: Crime on subway/el systems
        Message Number: 756727
        Posted by: Joe Camel
        Date: Wed Jul 16 21:05:46 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Crime on subway/el systems posted by John on July 14, 1997 at 06:05:30: This has nothing to do with the topic but: I'm a high school student and I believe that rap should have a c before it.
        
        Subject: Re: Crime on subway/el systems
        Message Number: 756730
        Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
        Date: Thu Jul 17 02:58:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Crime on subway/el systems posted by Joe Camel on July 16, 1997 at 21:05:46: That deserves a big "RIGHT ON". The last thing down and out segments of society, especially kids who are on the edge, need is the anger and violence of rap music, further distancing themselves from the mainstream of society.
        
        Subject: Re: Crime on subway/el systems
        Message Number: 756763
        Posted by: Kevin Keith
        Date: Mon Jul 21 15:00:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Crime on subway/el systems posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on July 17, 1997 at 02:58:03: I experience these animal breed kids on the subways at times. The music has got to stop (or at least be turned down). These same kids who are animals are going to blame society for them not being able to get a job. May I suggest that these kids attend the NY Philharmonic concert in Central Park tomorrow evening (tues) to give classical music a shot...just please leave the boom boxes at home!!!!

Thread title: Flushing on Pelham? (756604)
Started on Sun Jul 13 16:25:37 1997, by John

Subject: Flushing on Pelham?
Message Number: 756604
Posted by: John
Date: Sun Jul 13 16:25:37 1997

Yesterday, I was waiting for a downtown #6 train at 23rd st. After waiting a few minutes, a #6 train using redbirds came into the station, and as the train passed me by (I was standing toward the end of the platform), I saw that the first two cars were Flushing R-36s. Why were those cars on the #6 train? I thought they weren't able to be used on mainline IRT lines because of the location of the trip cocks. Was I in danger while on that train? Come to think of it, how did the R-62s run on the Flushing Line in the 1980s? Was I in danger back then, too?
- Subject: Re: Flushing on Pelham?
- Message Number: 756605
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Sun Jul 13 20:54:31 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Flushing on Pelham? posted by John on July 13, 1997 at 16:25:37: You definitely were not in danger. It's a simple matter to either move the trip cock to the other side of the truck or simply switch the truck.
  - Subject: Re: Flushing on Pelham?
  - Message Number: 756622
  - Posted by: aaron
  - Date: Mon Jul 14 08:51:12 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Flushing on Pelham? posted by Steve on July 13, 1997 at 20:54:31: Help!!! What is a trip cock?
    - Subject: Re: Flushing on Pelham?
    - Message Number: 756667
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Mon Jul 14 22:55:49 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Flushing on Pelham? posted by aaron on July 14, 1997 at 08:51:12: A trip cock: It's basically a dump valve mounted on the truck. The trip cock has an arm which extends downward from the valve body. When it passes over a red signal (with it's stop arm up, the trip cock contacts the stop arm and the valve opens. When the valve opens, the brake pipe air is vented to atmosphere and the train goes into emergency, and stops. I hate to say this because I'll get dozens of requests but if you need a diagram, let me know?
      - Subject: Re: Flushing on Pelham?
      - Message Number: 756703
      - Posted by: John
      - Date: Tue Jul 15 23:34:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Flushing on Pelham? posted by Steve on July 14, 1997 at 22:55:49: Is there any chance the device will be renamed? Because, after all, "Trip cock" does have an air of vulgarness :-)
        
        Subject: Re: Flushing on Pelham?
        Message Number: 756719
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Wed Jul 16 13:21:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Flushing on Pelham? posted by John on July 15, 1997 at 23:34:20: The device probably has an "offical name" (like "stop trip device") but trip cock is what everybody calls it. Besides, its O.K. to be politically incorrect in the transit (rail) industry.

Thread title: New Derailment (756608)
Started on Mon Jul 14 04:18:22 1997, by subway-buff

Subject: New Derailment
Message Number: 756608
Posted by: subway-buff
Date: Mon Jul 14 04:18:22 1997

In the wee hours of Monday 7/14/1997, 3 cars of a southbound #2 derailed neared President Street in Brooklyn. As of 4:15am no IRT train is running South of Atlantic Ave. Bus service is being provided. Opinion: this probably is the Rutgers Street turnoff since the #4 is also out due to the derailment. There are 3 injuries among 150 passengers.
- Subject: Re: New Derailment
- Message Number: 756612
- Posted by: Keranu
- Date: Mon Jul 14 04:39:10 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]New Derailment posted by subway-buff on July 14, 1997 at 04:18:22: Can you imagine BEING in a derailment, how scary would that be?! Yikes!
  - Subject: Re: New Derailment
  - Message Number: 756616
  - Posted by: John
  - Date: Mon Jul 14 05:48:04 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: New Derailment posted by Keranu on July 14, 1997 at 04:39:10: From what I just heard on Eyewitness News, the last (10th) car of the train jumped the track and slammed into a column and then a wall.
    - Subject: Re: New Derailment
    - Message Number: 756620
    - Posted by: Julio Perez
    - Date: Mon Jul 14 08:17:56 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]New Derailment posted by subway-buff on July 14, 1997 at 04:18:22: As of 8:15 am 07/14/97, there were no pics available on the derailment on the Web, although there was a blurb about it on WABC Channel 7's Web site, [7]http://www.abcnews.com/local/wabc/news/index.html. Nothing was available on the New York Times nor WNBC's sites, either.
      - Subject: Re: New Derailment
      - Message Number: 756623
      - Posted by: Peter Rosa
      - Date: Mon Jul 14 08:54:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: New Derailment posted by John on July 14, 1997 at 05:48:04: That sounds a lot like the A train derailment a couple of weeks ago. It will be interesting to see if the causes turn out to be the same.
        
        Subject: Re: New Derailment
        Message Number: 756631
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Mon Jul 14 11:57:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]New Derailment posted by subway-buff on July 14, 1997 at 04:18:22: Does this mean they get to cut up another R62? The one from Union Square is still sitting in Concourse Yard... in two halves. Anyone know where the wreckage from the A train wreck went? Could go get a picture :-) --Dave
        
        Subject: Re: New Derailment
        Message Number: 756633
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Mon Jul 14 12:38:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: New Derailment posted by David Pirmann on July 14, 1997 at 11:57:09: It wouldn't be an R-62 this time. The #2 uses R-33's (Redbirds)
        
        Subject: Re: New Derailment
        Message Number: 756665
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Jul 14 22:48:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: New Derailment posted by David Pirmann on July 14, 1997 at 11:57:09: The wreck from 135th Street was cut up into enough pieces that it filled about 8 flatcars. There's not much to photograph. You can have all the pix you want of the R-62 from 14th Street. BTW - it was not a 62 but a redbird (R-36) which derailed this morning and it was one car, not 3. The car & it's mate are on 17 track in Livonia Yard as of now.
        
        Subject: Re: New Derailment
        Message Number: 756729
        Posted by: Joe Camel
        Date: Thu Jul 17 00:50:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: New Derailment posted by Steve on July 14, 1997 at 22:48:08: YES!!! At least it's a car I don't feel sorry for.
        
        Subject: Re: New Derailment
        Message Number: 756736
        Posted by: Keranu
        Date: Thu Jul 17 10:06:46 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: New Derailment posted by John on July 14, 1997 at 05:48:04: So if you were in a subway car that went of the track and slammed into a column and a wall, would it be enough to kill your devotion and end your being a fan of the subway. Would it stop you using it? I honestly can't say whether it would deter me.
        
        Subject: Re: New Derailment
        Message Number: 756738
        Posted by: FRED WELLMAN
        Date: Thu Jul 17 10:58:32 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: New Derailment posted by Keranu on July 17, 1997 at 10:06:46: Would I still ride the Subway if I was in a wreck? Well I have been in 4 auto accidents in a 35yr period, the last one head on at 65mph, and I still drive. Before any comments on my driving the last one I was a passenger, and only one of the remaining three was my fault. I was 19. People have to make a choice after being in any accident, Mass Transit, Airplane, Auto, Ect.
        
        Subject: Re: New Derailment
        Message Number: 756745
        Posted by: John
        Date: Thu Jul 17 13:33:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: New Derailment posted by Steve on July 14, 1997 at 22:48:08: The car and its mate in the yard? Alone? Uh, oh. If the car wasn't damaged too much, you know what this means . . . the next generation of redbirds!! :-)
        
        Subject: Re: New Derailment
        Message Number: 756746
        Posted by: John
        Date: Thu Jul 17 13:41:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: New Derailment posted by Keranu on July 17, 1997 at 10:06:46: Hey, man, things happen, you know! Besides, this is one incident involving one train out of hundreds of others. Hundreds of trips are made each day, each without incident. However, the phsycology of some people is to dwell on a single incident such as this, and phsych themselves into beleiving that the subway is dangerous. The same thing that happens whenever a pane crashes. You hear people saying "flying is so dangerous", "I'm never flying again!", but again, it is one incident out of hundreds of flights. True, you never know when you'll get on the fateful train, or fateful plane, but the chances of something tragic happening are extremely slim, so I don't even think about it.
        
        Subject: Re: New Derailment
        Message Number: 756752
        Posted by: Bingo
        Date: Thu Jul 17 19:56:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: New Derailment posted by Keranu on July 14, 1997 at 04:39:10: Can you imagine being in a tin can being ripped apart as you are thrown, unrestrained, from your seat, with possible body contact with poles, seats, doors, other people and objects, all at speeds at over 50 km/h? Would you enjoy the possibility of severe whiplash, lacerations, neck and back contrusions, spinal compression or just getting bumped around, or inversely, the possibility of being paralysed? Please be a little more sensitive. Sure, no one was on the vehicle, but there easily could have been and for certain many would have died.

Thread title: Archives??? (756610)
Started on Mon Jul 14 04:32:52 1997, by Thicko Low-tech Keranu

Subject: Archives???
Message Number: 756610
Posted by: Thicko Low-tech Keranu
Date: Mon Jul 14 04:32:52 1997

Sorry 'bout this, I'm very thick when it comes to high-tech stuff. How do you get the archives, I clicked on that newsgroup thing but all the dates seem to be the same and I can't find stuff that I typed way back in May, has it been erased? I could cope with the old system of web addresses containing info, are they still there (even though links are removed). I think I need to read more books about the net and get with it.
- Subject: Re: Archives???
- Message Number: 756618
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Mon Jul 14 07:59:39 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Archives??? posted by Thicko Low-tech Keranu on July 14, 1997 at 04:32:52: Unfortunately, all the dates are the same-- the date when I posted it to the archive. Set your news browser to show all old articles, and possibly to show more than 100 at a time, and you should be able to find your old posts. The news interface might be confusing but it has the advantage of maintaining the threads with a minimum of effort on my part.. --Dave
  - Subject: Re: Archives???
  - Message Number: 756733
  - Posted by: Still Thicko Keranu
  - Date: Thu Jul 17 08:38:40 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Archives??? posted by David Pirmann on July 14, 1997 at 07:59:39: How do you set the news browser thing??
    - Subject: Re: Archives???
    - Message Number: 756735
    - Posted by: David Pirmann
    - Date: Thu Jul 17 08:49:58 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Archives??? posted by Still Thicko Keranu on July 17, 1997 at 08:38:40: If you are using Netscape version that has a newsreader (3.0 for sure, maybe 2.0, I don't remember) or an IE with newsreader, all you should have to do is click the link. If you are behind a firewall you might have a problem. To test this, try using telnet: give command "telnet nycsubway.org 110" (that's a port number), you should get a response saying "InterNetNews NNRP Server". If not, maybe your ISP can offer you some assistance...

Thread title: Re: - - - - - Tribute to David Pirmann - - - - - (756611)
Started on Mon Jul 14 04:37:19 1997, by Keranu

Subject: Re: - - - - - Tribute to David Pirmann - - - - -
Message Number: 756611
Posted by: Keranu
Date: Mon Jul 14 04:37:19 1997

In Reply to: [6]- - - - - Tribute to Mr. Pirmann - - - - - posted by RAC93 on July 12, 1997 at 04:55:13: There, you don't sound so old now! I have to say this is the most visited place I come to, every time I come on the internet I type up that address (cos my bookmarks get curiously erased) and see what cool stuff has been typed since I last saw it. Hats off to you, great website, cool idea and very informative for those (like me) yearning to ride the subway again. A tribute was definitely in order - how come we waited so long??

Thread title: Pittsburgh PATransit's Home Page (756640)
Started on Mon Jul 14 14:28:31 1997, by William A. Padron

Subject: Pittsburgh PATransit's Home Page
Message Number: 756640
Posted by: William A. Padron
Date: Mon Jul 14 14:28:31 1997

The Port Authority of Allegheny County, the agency that operates the mass transit system in the Pittsburgh metropolitan area, now has a web site on the Internet. The address is: http://trfn.clpgh.org/orgs/patransit/ Sincerely, William A. Padron

Thread title: Pittsburgh PATransit's PCC car fleet - current status (756641)
Started on Mon Jul 14 14:46:03 1997, by William A. Padron

Subject: Pittsburgh PATransit's PCC car fleet - current status
Message Number: 756641
Posted by: William A. Padron
Date: Mon Jul 14 14:46:03 1997

According to an article in the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum's "Trolley Fare" magazine published in the January-February 1997 issue (and later confirmed in a recent e-mail inquiry response to me), the current Pittsburgh PCC fleet that are now only assigned to the 47D Drake shuttle line is at three units (#4007 to #4009) with a fourth one (#4004) being repaired for return to revenue service shortly. The PATransit Web Home Page, however, current state that they have six PCC's in their fleet. In any event, the 47D Drake line really only needs a maximum requirement of two cars in service. All of the remaining PCC units, including several unrebuilt 1700-series cars, are in dead storage (or as what the E-mail response from PTM stated as being in "various states of disuse"). I guess that the days are indeed numbered for the PCC's in Pittsburgh! Sincerely, William A. Padron
- Subject: Re: Pittsburgh PATransit's PCC car fleet - current status
- Message Number: 756643
- Posted by: William A. Padron
- Date: Mon Jul 14 15:13:32 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Pittsburgh PATransit's PCC car fleet - current status posted by William A. Padron on July 14, 1997 at 14:46:03: It should be noted that, according to the recent e-mail inquiry response by the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum towards myself, PATransit might even list some of these Pittsburgh PCC's in dead storage as being "active" but only on paper. The reason for that premise is because many of them had yet to fulfill their 10-year rehabilitation expectancy service line, and must be considered as being "alive" by government rules. In the end, some cars (such as #4010 to #4012) have been officially retired, and there is a very strong possibility that they will soon go to the scrap line along with the long-derelict 1700-series units (but definitely not the four PCC's current in use on the 47D Drake line). Sincerely, William A. Padron
  - Subject: Re: Pittsburgh PATransit's PCC car fleet - current status
  - Message Number: 756691
  - Posted by: William A. Padron
  - Date: Tue Jul 15 14:15:51 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Pittsburgh PATransit's PCC car fleet - current status posted by William A. Padron on July 14, 1997 at 15:13:32: To get a better clarification on this matter...in 1993, there were sixteen PCC cars still available for revenue service: #1713, #1737, #1745, #1765 and #4001 to #4012. While the PATransit Home Web Page now claims to have six PCC units in their fleet (as of March 16, 1997), the January-February 1997 edition of the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum's "Trolley Fare" magazine states that the revenue fleet was up to three (#4007-#4009) with a fourth one (#4004) being repaired for return to service. I had originally inquired to both PATransit and PTM as what was the current and correct status of the PCC car fleet (i.e. the actual number of cars available and their roster number), and whatever became of the last four remaining 1700-series cars mentioned above. There was no response from PATransit on this matter, but I did receive an E-mail reponse from PTM. Their response, shown here verbatim, was as follows: "The most recent info on this was that 4007-4009 were active and 4004 was under repair. The rest of the cars, including the four 1700s (1713, 1737, 1745, 1765) were in various states of disuse. While PAT might list them as active, they may only be so on paper. Some of the cars have not yet run out their alloted 10 year rehab life and thus PAT must continue to consider them as 'alive' by government rules. The Drake line requires at most two cars, so there obviously is no longer a need for 16 cars. Some (4010-4012) have benn officially retired and may to go scrap soon along with the long-stored basket case 1700s (other than the 4 rebuilt ones)." By the way, two 1700-series Pittsburgh PCC units have been preserved as in their original vintage-1949 paint scheme. Car 1711 is at the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum in Washington, Pennsylvania, while car 1724 is on display at the Senator John Heinz Pittsburgh Regional History Center museum which is located in that city's Strip District. Sincerely, William A. Padron New York, NY

Thread title: Buses (756642)
Started on Mon Jul 14 15:08:29 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Buses
Message Number: 756642
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Mon Jul 14 15:08:29 1997

This is just an attempt to maintain some surface-transit related dialogue on this site. Likes, dislikes, stories, memorabilia, questions, answers. I'd love to keep it to NYC and environs (from a selfish point of view) but welcome the promotion of anything buses. Good web sites, photos on the web, let's hear about it!!! (memo to David Pirrman--Hope you don't mind. If so, reply here. Regards and thanks for your efforts.)
- Subject: Re: Buses
- Message Number: 756644
- Posted by: John M.
- Date: Mon Jul 14 16:32:28 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Buses posted by Charles Fiori on July 14, 1997 at 15:08:29: Here are my like and dislikes about buses. Dislike: I bike frequently, and when I approach a bus (particuarly the ones with the exhaust pipe on the bottom) I literally have to pull over and gasp for air. I was glad when I saw the exhaust at the top of the new buses last year. Is it feasible to switch the fleet to Natural gas. I spoke to someone at the TA; they said that because of the volatility of natural gas, the depots would have to be completely overhauled and it wuld be very expensive. Like: I like riding the bus at night when you're one of only three people on the bus, the traffic is light, and there are hardly any people waiting along the line.
  - Subject: Re: Buses
  - Message Number: 756651
  - Posted by: Charles Fiori
  - Date: Mon Jul 14 17:14:09 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Buses posted by John M. on July 14, 1997 at 16:32:28: Thanks--keep it up. Plenty of room for new parishioners, congregants, whatever! We seem to have generated a lot of material about Redbirds, Stainless Steel, etc., that I'd like to exchange ideas about Fishbowls, Old Looks, New Looks, adwings, Flxibles, yadda-yadda-yadda.
    - Subject: Re: Buses
    - Message Number: 756652
    - Posted by: Charles Fiori
    - Date: Mon Jul 14 17:14:28 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Buses posted by John M. on July 14, 1997 at 16:32:28: Thanks--keep it up. Plenty of room for new parishioners, congregants, whatever! We seem to have generated a lot of material about Redbirds, Stainless Steel, etc., that I'd like to exchange ideas about Fishbowls, Old Looks, New Looks, adwings, Flxibles, yadda-yadda-yadda.
      - Subject: Re: Buses
      - Message Number: 756656
      - Posted by: John
      - Date: Mon Jul 14 17:36:53 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Buses posted by John M. on July 14, 1997 at 16:32:28: Yeah, the bus at night. There's nothing like riding a Manhattan bus at 11:00 at night. Nobody to get on your nerves, nobody ringing the bell every two blocks, the bus doesn't pull over every two blocks to pick up any passengers. Then again, there's nothing like the subway at night. It's like a "fantasyland", expecially stations like Times Square or Atlantic Avenue that have a maze of underground passageways. Nobody . . . Not a soul hangs around the station at 2AM. The flurescent lighting provides a cold shine on everything, but the indescent lights of the past cast eerie amber glows on the walls and what-not. Strange as it may sound, this is the place and time where I would LOVE to spend time with N.M. (the woman I'm in love with!) Just wishful thinking, I guess.
        
        Subject: Re: Buses
        Message Number: 756698
        Posted by: John
        Date: Tue Jul 15 20:06:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Buses posted by Charles Fiori on July 14, 1997 at 17:14:28: When did NJ Transit retire their last Fishbowl? I remember seeing one as late as 1994, on my way to Willowbrook Mall from Newark. My bus (#11) was going through Bloomfield Center and I saw a Fishbowl in front of their City Hall (I think it was Broad St., or Montgomery St. I have reletives in this area, so I know the local streets fairly well).

Thread title: How come more chicks don't post messages? (756646)
Started on Mon Jul 14 16:47:33 1997, by John M.

Subject: How come more chicks don't post messages?
Message Number: 756646
Posted by: John M.
Date: Mon Jul 14 16:47:33 1997

I've been visiting this site for about one month now, and I think the information and dialogue are first-rate. I've always wondered why 99% of the participants on this bulletin board seem to be endowed with a Y chromosone. I took a recent tour with the New York Transit Museum, and I think there were about two women in a group of more than 30 people. Is this because the MTA and the world of transit planning is male dominated and sexist? By the way, my tour with the Transit Museum included a ride along the Franklin Avenue Shuttle in Brooklyn. When you get out at Franklin Avenue, there is this wooden boardwalk that is supported by the remains of an el tht ran along Fulton Street. Our guide said this is the oldest part of the entire NYC transit system that is still "in use." It is scheduled to be torn down as the entire Franklin Avenue shuttle is being renovated next year (including the now closed Dean Streeet stop, I think). Just thought I would pass this along.
- Subject: Re: How come more chicks don't post messages?
- Message Number: 756649
- Posted by: subway-buff
- Date: Mon Jul 14 17:11:55 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]How come more chicks don't post messages? posted by John M. on July 14, 1997 at 16:47:33: Perhaps more women would post if they were treated as equals. Some women like trains as much as some guys. Also- many women would prefer not to be called "chick" or similar words. It is this attitude and "fear?" of perverts that keeps alot of women of this BBS and the net. Please e-mail a reply and we'll discuss further. I too went ont he trip and found it fascinating. I ride NJT six days a week and have answerd questions their crews don't know. All right- I am a *woman* not a "chick". Please treat us with courtesy. :-)
  - Subject: Re: How come more chicks don't post messages?
  - Message Number: 756657
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Mon Jul 14 17:45:56 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: How come more chicks don't post messages? posted by subway-buff on July 14, 1997 at 17:11:55: We have a real social problem in our society in that all contacts between strangers of the opposite sex are presumed/suspected to be "Hits". A prime example; in 1984,while taking my first tour of the relatively new DC subway, I changed trains, and to my surprise, found the front window position occupied by a young woman! I would have enjoyed swapping knowledge of the system with her,as I was a visitor and the odds were that she was a regular rider. But, glib as I might consider myself to be, I could not think of a way to strike up a conversation without saeeming to be threatening! What should I have done?
    - Subject: Re: How come more chicks don't post messages?
    - Message Number: 756658
    - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    - Date: Mon Jul 14 17:47:39 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: How come more chicks don't post messages? posted by subway-buff on July 14, 1997 at 17:11:55: We have a real social problem in our society in that all contacts between strangers of the opposite sex are presumed/suspected to be "Hits". A prime example; in 1984,while taking my first tour of the relatively new DC subway, I changed trains, and to my surprise, found the front window position occupied by a young woman! I would have enjoyed swapping knowledge of the system with her,as I was a visitor and the odds were that she was a regular rider. But, glib as I might consider myself to be, I could not think of a way to strike up a conversation without saeeming to be threatening! What should I have done? (I would NOT consider calling any woman a chick, unless perhaps she was wearing an Easter costume)
      - Subject: Re: How come more chicks don't post messages?
      - Message Number: 756680
      - Posted by: John M.
      - Date: Tue Jul 15 10:11:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: How come more chicks don't post messages? posted by subway-buff on July 14, 1997 at 17:11:55: Sorry, I didn't mean to offend with the message title. It was meant in a humorous vein (i.e. me, the nerdy transit aficionado awkwardly expressing a desire that more women share my enthusiasm for trains and mass transit). I told my fiancee I posted this, and she thought it was hysterical, even though she's not a subway buff. Anyway, I did want to open a discussion on why transit planning seems so male dominated. Seeing all the male names posting messages reminded me that when I attended NYU's Wagner School a few years back, the public administration program was pretty evenly distributed among the sexes, while the urban planning program was heavily male. Why is this? I've worked in 2 jobs dealing with the legal profession recently, and among younger lawyers, women seemed pretty fairly represented (although I don't think its 50-50 yet). Is there something about transit planning and administration, or simply fascination with transit, that keeps women away? How can we correct this problem?
        
        Subject: Re: How come more chicks don't post messages?
        Message Number: 756682
        Posted by: Mark Greenwald
        Date: Tue Jul 15 10:32:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: How come more chicks don't post messages? posted by John M. on July 15, 1997 at 10:11:36: You know, it's amazing about the people that post messages--you're right it is mostly male--maybe it's due to upbringing. When I went to Frostburg State College (now University) in the western Maryland mountains, it was amazing how many people I knew growing up attended the Urban Planning courses like myself. What makes this significant is that I'm from a "planned city" that sits between Baltimore & Washington called "Columbia" We all grew up in a planned racially, socially, and religiously tolerant city that I guess the dreams of James Rouse and the other urban visionaries grew within all of us, male & female. That is here, though, New York can be a much tougher environment, especially the subway, henceforth, a more masculine environment. I could be DEAD WRONG!!--probably am, but it was just a thought.
        
        Subject: Re: How come more chicks don't post messages?
        Message Number: 756683
        Posted by: Peter Rosa
        Date: Tue Jul 15 11:13:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]How come more chicks don't post messages? posted by John M. on July 14, 1997 at 16:47:33: Interest in transit issues seems to be primarily a male phenomenon. All but a few of the regular participants in the Usenet newsgroups nyc.transit and misc.transport.urban-transit are men. Even beyond transit, let's not forget that the Internet in general is still somewhat male-oriented, though less so than in the past.
        
        Subject: Re: How come more chicks don't post messages?
        Message Number: 756690
        Posted by: John M.
        Date: Tue Jul 15 14:08:13 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: How come more chicks don't post messages? posted by Mark Greenwald on July 15, 1997 at 10:32:58: Maybe part of the answer lies in childhood - I didn't know too many girls with model trains for toys.
        
        Subject: Re: How come more chicks don't post messages?
        Message Number: 756705
        Posted by: Andrew Byler
        Date: Tue Jul 15 23:52:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: How come more chicks don't post messages? posted by John M. on July 15, 1997 at 10:11:36: Why do you look at this as necessarily being a problem? From my perspective, the fewer people entering my field of Civil Engineering, which includes transit operatiosn and planning, the better. It means I am more in demand, have a better chocie of work, and get paid more. From the point of view of enthusiasts, sure, it'd be nice to have more interested people, including women. But then again, if everyone followed transit and railroads as much as folks like us do, maybe it wouldn't seem so interesting anymore and would lose some of its charm. Sometimes its best to keep a secret! Andy
        
        Subject: Re: How come more chicks don't post messages?
        Message Number: 756708
        Posted by: John M.
        Date: Wed Jul 16 10:41:53 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: How come more chicks don't post messages? posted by Andrew Byler on July 15, 1997 at 23:52:05: If more people followed transit and railroads as much as "folks like us," or even had a general interest in ensuring an efficient transit system and expanding it where feasible, then the demand for your profession overall would be increased. Obviously, diversity in the workplace is not the only answer, but I do think its healthy that the administration of a mass transit system used by millions of people reflects its ridership. And I think its quite important that more women become interested in transit administration and planning, especially as more women become elected officials and policymakers. At the very least, having more women interested in this field might make your work environment more aesthetically pleasing.
        
        Subject: Re: How come more chicks don't post messages?
        Message Number: 756714
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Wed Jul 16 11:41:50 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: How come more chicks don't post messages? posted by Mark Greenwald on July 15, 1997 at 10:32:58: This is getting interesting! I too am a civil engineer with a MS in Planning. I gave up on planning very quickly because of the frustration of never seeing anything built. I work for an agency that took it upon itself to target female engineers for hiring preference about ten years ago. It sounded grim, but has worked out rather well. Most of the women bring a wealth of new attitudes about getting things done. I do notice that on average they are extremely frustrated by the snails pace of Bureaucracy. If they find our system sluggish, I presume Planning would drive them over the edge. I do know a number of successful female planners, but they are polished Bureaucrats, and long ago put away any dreams of accomplishing anything "Concrete".
        
        Subject: Re: How come more chicks don't post messages?
        Message Number: 756715
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Wed Jul 16 11:42:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: How come more chicks don't post messages? posted by Mark Greenwald on July 15, 1997 at 10:32:58: This is getting interesting! I too am a civil engineer with a MS in Planning. I gave up on planning very quickly because of the frustration of never seeing anything built. I work for an agency that took it upon itself to target female engineers for hiring preference about ten years ago. It sounded grim, but has worked out rather well. Most of the women bring a wealth of new attitudes about getting things done. I do notice that on average they are extremely frustrated by the snails pace of Bureaucracy. If they find our system sluggish, I presume Planning would drive them over the edge. I do know a number of successful female planners, but they are polished Bureaucrats, and long ago put away any dreams of accomplishing anything "Concrete".
        
        Subject: Re: How come more chicks don't post messages?
        Message Number: 756854
        Posted by: Bingo
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:53:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]How come more chicks don't post messages? posted by John M. on July 14, 1997 at 16:47:33: First of all, you should quit calling them chicks.

Thread title: Info for getting to Port Authority Terminal from JFK (756647)
Started on Mon Jul 14 17:07:21 1997, by Tushar Desai

Subject: Info for getting to Port Authority Terminal from JFK
Message Number: 756647
Posted by: Tushar Desai
Date: Mon Jul 14 17:07:21 1997

Hi Could anyone let me know how to get to Port Authority Terminal from JFK ?? Moreover, from where could I get the tokens used in buying tickets. Appreciate your help.. Tushar
- Subject: Info for getting to Port Authority Terminal from JFK
- Message Number: 756648
- Posted by: Tushar Desai
- Date: Mon Jul 14 17:07:51 1997
  
  Hi Could anyone let me know how to get to Port Authority Terminal from JFK ?? Moreover, from where could I get the tokens used in buying tickets. Appreciate your help.. Tushar
  - Subject: Re: Info for getting to Port Authority Terminal from JFK
  - Message Number: 756650
  - Posted by: John
  - Date: Mon Jul 14 17:13:33 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Info for getting to Port Authority Terminal from JFK posted by Tushar Desai on July 14, 1997 at 17:07:21: From Kennedy Airport, you can take the Carey Bus directly to the Port Authority. I don't know the exact fare (call 1-800-AIR-RIDE for exact information). By subway, there is a free shuttle bus to the Howard Beach station where you can take the A train directly to the Port Authority. The tokens are used to enter the system; you do not use them to buy tickets. At any subway station, you have to go to a token booth to purchase your tokens. They are $1.50 each, and you deposit the token into the slot in the turnstile. The turnstile will then beep and an electronic display will flash "GO". Be advised that the token booth attendants will not produce change for bills over US$20.00.
    - Subject: Re: Info for getting to Port Authority Terminal from JFK
    - Message Number: 756653
    - Posted by: subway-buff
    - Date: Mon Jul 14 17:26:00 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Info for getting to Port Authority Terminal from JFK posted by Tushar Desai on July 14, 1997 at 17:07:51: 1- take the free Port Authority Shuttlke bus to Howard Beach /JFK Airport Station. take a Manhattan Bound A train (this train has a White letter A in a blue circle). 2- Get off this train at 42 Street Port Authority Bus Terminal. 3- Go through the turnstiles after going up the stairs when you see the directional sign for the Port AUthority Bus Terminal (PABT) 4- You will be on the lower level of the PABT.
      - Subject: Re: Info for getting to Port Authority Terminal from JFK
      - Message Number: 756835
      - Posted by: Joe Camel
      - Date: Mon Aug 25 19:53:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Info for getting to Port Authority Terminal from JFK posted by John on July 14, 1997 at 17:13:33: You can buy a metrocard, a thin plastic card that can hold up to $100.00 dollars in fares at one time, however you can only purchase a card for a minimum of $3.00 and a maximum of $80.00, refills can be done at any price up to $80.00 as long as the total never exceeds $100.00. The only incentive to using the metrocard is that you can transfer free from bus to subway.

Thread title: NYC Bus Fleets (756654)
Started on Mon Jul 14 17:30:54 1997, by Garfield

Subject: NYC Bus Fleets
Message Number: 756654
Posted by: Garfield
Date: Mon Jul 14 17:30:54 1997

During the past year or so, I've noticed that on the private bus company "Queens Surface Corp", some of there EXPRESS buses have stunning advertisements painted on the buses' exterior. On a few occassions, I've stopped and looked at these buses go by near where I work examining the paintings. Will the MTA ever go along with this concept in order to boost revenue therfore lessening the chance of a fare increase?
- Subject: Re: NYC Bus Fleets
- Message Number: 756660
- Posted by: John
- Date: Mon Jul 14 17:50:20 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]NYC Bus Fleets posted by Garfield on July 14, 1997 at 17:30:54: I have seen an MTA bus painted in a MetroCard Gold advertisement, but that's it.
  - Subject: Re: NYC Bus Fleets
  - Message Number: 756662
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Mon Jul 14 18:05:11 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]NYC Bus Fleets posted by Garfield on July 14, 1997 at 17:30:54: Be careful what you wish for! Here in Sacramento, CA, they went so far as to paint several busses "head to toe" including windows ! You could see out in daylight, but outsiders could not see in. I think management was made to realize that this had negative safety impacts, and after the first few thet were not repeated. They still cover both busses and light rail vehicles with massive graphics below the beltline. Most of them are "striking", I suppose; STRIKINGLY UGLY USUALLY.
    - Subject: Re: NYC Bus Fleets
    - Message Number: 756664
    - Posted by: Bobw
    - Date: Mon Jul 14 21:20:33 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]NYC Bus Fleets posted by Garfield on July 14, 1997 at 17:30:54: Here in Philadelphia SEPTA experimented with a few "shrink-wrapped" all-over ads. Looking out from the inside was OK, but you can't see inside from the street thru the windows. It appears that the experiment was a flop and no new ads have been seen, except for a couple of Blue Cross and local efforts. The new Ikarus buses have a SEPTA "S" over the last side window on each side, but none have been shrink-wrapped. Another interesting one is Neoplan 3439 - it was once covered in a partial ad for SEPTA's Day Pass, with city scenes covering the windows. It has recently been repainted but the decals remain on the windows! You may have seen NJT Flxible 1403, the "Aqualink" bus, which is shrink-wrapped for the NJ Aquarium and runs on the Aqualink (Route 461) between Camden Transporation Center (WJ Rand) on Broadway and the Aquarium on weekends. It has been featured at the Hoboken Festival the last few years. On this bus, the windows are virtually useless, as the decals make it seem as if you are looking thru a heavy screen to see outside from in, and it is nearly impossible to see inside from out. My opinion - keep the ads simple and the buses as buses and not rolling billboards. SEPTA had a policy for no exterior ads for years, and this ended in '92-'93. The buses don't look any cleaner, as had been promised, and who knows if the revenue is covering what the boosters said it would.
      - Subject: Re: NYC Bus Fleets
      - Message Number: 756670
      - Posted by: ~airplane
      - Date: Mon Jul 14 23:04:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]NYC Bus Fleets posted by Garfield on July 14, 1997 at 17:30:54: Have you ever stood on a sidewalk and watched a telephone roll by?
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Bus Fleets
        Message Number: 756693
        Posted by: John M.
        Date: Tue Jul 15 15:15:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]NYC Bus Fleets posted by Garfield on July 14, 1997 at 17:30:54: You're message raises an important point re: subway and bus advertising. How much revenue is the MTA losing by devoting almost entire subway cars and buses to MetroCard advertising. At least when I see ads for Dr. Zizmor, I know that that MTA is reveiving badly needed revenue (even if some people are literally paying with their skin).
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Bus Fleets
        Message Number: 756697
        Posted by: John
        Date: Tue Jul 15 20:00:28 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Bus Fleets posted by John M. on July 15, 1997 at 15:15:08: I have never seen an entire subway car painted in MetroCard advertisement.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Bus Fleets
        Message Number: 756836
        Posted by: Joe Camel
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:53:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]NYC Bus Fleets posted by Garfield on July 14, 1997 at 17:30:54: I just saw a Command Bus with such an advertisement for George of the Jungle parked on Fillmore Ave. in Brooklyn.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Bus Fleets
        Message Number: 756838
        Posted by: Keranu
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:53:42 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Bus Fleets posted by Bobw on July 14, 1997 at 21:20:33: Greater Glasgow Buses in Scotland have employed this technique. There is a problem with allover advertisments though because in Britain buses are deregulated so if you see a bus with an overall advertisement you don't know what company it is. I want to get on a no. 18 to Bearsden with Kelvin, not Possilpark with Gtr G'gow.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Bus Fleets
        Message Number: 756849
        Posted by: John
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:53:51 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Bus Fleets posted by Keranu on July 17, 1997 at 08:33:55: Isn't the the name of the bus company, or a logo, on the front of the bus beneath the front window? That's the way it is here. Also, there probably is the name of the company somewhere on the bus, even if its in tiny print.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC Bus Fleets
        Message Number: 756980
        Posted by: Fernando Perez
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:55:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]NYC Bus Fleets posted by Garfield on July 14, 1997 at 17:30:54: Recently I have seen a Manhattanville depot bus with the shrink wrap advertisement on the rear of the bus covering the entire A/C unit and engine compartment cover. But I do not think that MTA wants to have the same set up as the Queens private lines because of safety reasons. Also, Department of Buses has two buses that have been rebuilt to sell Metrocards at various sites and these have been covered entirely in a Gold Metrocard setup.

Thread title: NY1 News "Straphangars Report" (756655)
Started on Mon Jul 14 17:33:56 1997, by Garfield

Subject: NY1 News "Straphangars Report"
Message Number: 756655
Posted by: Garfield
Date: Mon Jul 14 17:33:56 1997

I've noticed for the past month or so that the "Straphangars Report" does not appear on the regular times as it did. Does anyone know of the show and knows if the program was either cut or has a new time slot. PLEASE POST !!!
- Subject: Re: NY1 News "Straphangars Report"
- Message Number: 756659
- Posted by: John
- Date: Mon Jul 14 17:48:25 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]NY1 News "Straphangars Report" posted by Garfield on July 14, 1997 at 17:33:56: Yeah, because the term "Straphanger" will be obsolete once the redbirds go. We will now have to be called "Barhangers" :-)
  - Subject: Re: NY1 News "Straphangars Report"
  - Message Number: 756679
  - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
  - Date: Tue Jul 15 09:54:21 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]NY1 News "Straphangars Report" posted by Garfield on July 14, 1997 at 17:33:56: The Straphangers Report has been canceled until further notice, because Paul Fleuranges, the transit reporter had resigned. I'm not sure but I think he accepted a position at CBS.
    - Subject: Re: NY1 News "Straphangars Report"
    - Message Number: 756689
    - Posted by: William A. Padron
    - Date: Tue Jul 15 13:52:02 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: NY1 News "Straphangars Report" posted by Wayne Johnson on July 15, 1997 at 09:54:21: Paul Fleuranges, original host of NY1 News' "The Straphangers' Report", is currently a general assignment reporter for WCBS-TV Channel 2 News here in New York City. There is no word at this time for a return of the show and a replacement host at this time from NY1 News. Sincerely, William A. Padron

Thread title: New Frames-based pages (756663)
Started on Mon Jul 14 21:05:05 1997, by David Pirmann

Subject: New Frames-based pages
Message Number: 756663
Posted by: David Pirmann
Date: Mon Jul 14 21:05:05 1997

I've replaced the main page and the subject pages with a new Frames-based interface. Let me know if you find any bugs or anything not working properly. (Or if you don't like it...) --dave
- Subject: Re: New Frames-based pages
- Message Number: 756675
- Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
- Date: Tue Jul 15 01:59:41 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]New Frames-based pages posted by David Pirmann on July 14, 1997 at 21:05:05: I wasn't able to see the logo at the top of the big page. In any case, I personally despiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiise frames...
  - Subject: Re: New Frames-based pages
  - Message Number: 756676
  - Posted by: Zack
  - Date: Tue Jul 15 03:17:02 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: New Frames-based pages posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on July 15, 1997 at 01:59:41: go back to the old format dave i liked it better yo could see more of the page and it looked better
    - Subject: Re: New Frames-based pages
    - Message Number: 756678
    - Posted by: David Pirmann
    - Date: Tue Jul 15 08:13:01 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: New Frames-based pages posted by Zack on July 15, 1997 at 03:17:02: Okay, that's two votes no. But what do you mean you could see more of the page? Isn't that a function of the size of your browser window? In my window (630x768 browser size) I can see *more* of the page than before, without scrolling. I don't really like frames that much either, which is why only the index pages got them. The rest of the site isn't framed and won't be. -Dave
      - Subject: Re: New Frames-based pages
      - Message Number: 756685
      - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      - Date: Tue Jul 15 12:22:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]New Frames-based pages posted by David Pirmann on July 14, 1997 at 21:05:05: I didn't have trouble with loading the new pages, nor do I have a preference between frames or no frames, but will you have a home page for those with frame-challenged browsers? (You may already have it - perhaps I just didn't see it) --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: New Frames-based pages
        Message Number: 756686
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Tue Jul 15 12:45:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]New Frames-based pages posted by David Pirmann on July 14, 1997 at 21:05:05: Excuse my computer ignorance, but I am over Fifty after all! What does Frame Based imply/mean. Looks better to me, but what do I know?

Thread title: Subway in Wilmington, Delaware? (756672)
Started on Tue Jul 15 00:27:13 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Subway in Wilmington, Delaware?
Message Number: 756672
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Tue Jul 15 00:27:13 1997

Can anyone tell me if Wilmington, Delaware will ever get a subway system, or at least an LRV line? I don't know if Wilmington is considered a major city, but it appears to be about the size of Newark, N.J., and is served by Amtrak, and Philadelphia's SEPTA commuter rail system. I just can't understand why Wilmington doesn't have any form of subway/elevated or trolley system, as it appears to be a large enough city for one.
- Subject: Re: Subway in Wilmington, Delaware?
- Message Number: 756681
- Posted by: Mark Greenwald
- Date: Tue Jul 15 10:23:27 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Subway in Wilmington, Delaware? posted by Timothy on July 15, 1997 at 00:27:13: It seems to me that Wilmington would be just the right size for Light Rail--Why don't you contact the city itself and ask if one was ever considered and if not---why. Then, if you can, let the rest of us know.
  - Subject: Re: Subway in Wilmington, Delaware?
  - Message Number: 756684
  - Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
  - Date: Tue Jul 15 12:18:18 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway in Wilmington, Delaware? posted by Mark Greenwald on July 15, 1997 at 10:23:27: Wilmington at one time had a fair sized trolleybus system, which was abandoned at an early date. Many of the coaches later went to Johnstown, PA. Seashore has two ex-Wilmington coaches, one via Johnstown. AFAIK another is on the way. I don't know what the future will offer, but there is a precedent.
    - Subject: Re: Subway in Wilmington, Delaware?
    - Message Number: 756700
    - Posted by: Bobw
    - Date: Tue Jul 15 21:08:25 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway in Wilmington, Delaware? posted by Gerry O'Regan on July 15, 1997 at 12:18:18: Wilmington is only 25 miles south of Philadelphia (my home base) and I don't think I've ever heard of any plans for light rail there. There was a sizable trackless network there, as mentioned in another follow-up, and before that a comprehensive trolley system, but transit there today is 100% bus and not very big in terms of fleet size or ridership. There are no significant high-volume corridors of attraction, as Wilmington is in the center of its metropolitan area (about 200K population at best). The only major link in my opinion would be toward Newark (DE) along I-95 - the U of Delaware is in Newark and there are large employers and shopping centers in this corridor. Unfortunately DART's bus routes in this area are hard-pressed to compete with the highway.

Thread title: Levi's jeans commercial shot on el (756674)
Started on Tue Jul 15 01:16:19 1997, by Timothy

Subject: Levi's jeans commercial shot on el
Message Number: 756674
Posted by: Timothy
Date: Tue Jul 15 01:16:19 1997

Back in the early/mid 1980's, I remember seeing a Levi's 501 jeans TV commercial, in which showed a small group of people walking down, and dancing to the commercial's rap-like jingle on what appeared to be stairs to an elevated station. The stairways in the commercial looked very ornate. They seemed to have resembled the old Polo Grounds Shuttle stairways that still exist at 155th St. and 8th Ave.. If anyone here recalls seeing this commercial, please let me know if the stairs were in fact the ones at 155th St. and 8th Ave.. The only other possible location could be the stairs on Metro-North's 125th St. Station, which are also ornate.
- Subject: Re: Levi's jeans commercial shot on el
- Message Number: 756709
- Posted by: Lou
- Date: Wed Jul 16 10:44:12 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Levi's jeans commercial shot on el posted by Timothy on July 15, 1997 at 01:16:19: Could it be Intervale,Simpson,or Freeman on the 2??? One of these are used in the current Gold Card ads by the MTA, and they look fairly ornate (they did things diffrently back in 1904!)
  - Subject: Re: Levi's jeans commercial shot on el
  - Message Number: 756718
  - Posted by: Timothy
  - Date: Wed Jul 16 13:07:47 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Levi's jeans commercial shot on el posted by Lou on July 16, 1997 at 10:44:12: I know that the Levi's commercial wasn't shot on the 2 line. I've already checked out some of the stations along that line. Even though they are very ornate, they didn't resemble the one in the commercial. The stairway in the commercial had no canopy over it, as most elevated station stairways do. There are only 3 elevated stations I've seen so far in New York that have no canopies over the stairs. They are Metro-North's 125th St. Station, Broadway/Myrtle Ave. Junction in Brooklyn (only 1 stairway, which appears to have been closed for some time, and is not as ornate), and the stairways at 155th St. and 8th Ave., which are remnants of the 9th Ave. El/Polo Grounds Shuttle, and more closely resembled the ones in the commercial. If you or anyone know of any other elevated stations that have ornate features, please let me know.

Thread title: Aesthetics (756694)
Started on Tue Jul 15 16:38:16 1997, by Chris

Subject: Aesthetics
Message Number: 756694
Posted by: Chris
Date: Tue Jul 15 16:38:16 1997

According to my research, a majority of New York's working population still does not take the subway, even though it is quicker and more time-saving. Maybe if we improve the looks of the subway with artwork (ex. Moscow), the subway can get more customers.
- Subject: Re: Aesthetics
- Message Number: 756696
- Posted by: John
- Date: Tue Jul 15 19:58:12 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Aesthetics posted by Chris on July 15, 1997 at 16:38:16: The TA is working on improving the look of the stations by installing tiled floors and stainless steel railings. Also, the entire purpose of the R-110 cars was to get customer feedback on what they liked/disliked in subway cars.

Thread title: Regional Express plan ( Rx ) (756699)
Started on Tue Jul 15 20:21:34 1997, by Ted Nielsen

Subject: Regional Express plan ( Rx )
Message Number: 756699
Posted by: Ted Nielsen
Date: Tue Jul 15 20:21:34 1997

What do you think about Gov. Pataki's plan called the Regional Express plan ? Here are some highlights of the plan : 1.) Extend the West Side rail line underground from Penn station to the Wall St. area , giving downtown access to LIRR , NJ Transit , Amtrak and Metro-North Hudson line trains. 2.) Build a new tunnel from Grand Central Terminal to the Wall St. area for Metro-North trains. 3.) Extend the LIRR from the Flatbush Ave. Terminal ( Brooklyn ) underground , following Atlantic Ave. , under the East River to the Wall St. area connecting with the proposed tunnels mentioned above , enabling LIRR riders to go straight to Downtown Manhattan and points north. ( some trains could travel directly from Long Island to Westchester with stops in Downtown Bklyn , Wall St. and Penn station ) 4.) An alternative option to the Penn station / Grand Central tunnels would be a subway shuttle line bet. the two stations and downtown. The study to look at those options has begun and will cost 10-15 million. There is also a ongoing study on the 2nd. Ave. subway line. It would cost about 5 Billion to build it. I have an idea for the route of the 2nd. Ave. subway. There would be 2 subway lines using the 2nd. Ave. line , one would connect with the Staten Island subway ( via a NY harbor tunnel ) , the other line would begin in Brooklyn ( Red Hook ? ) and continue to Downtown Bklyn ( Brooklyn Heights ) , under the East River into Manhattan , up to 2nd. Ave ( merging with the line from SI ). The 2 lines would continue up 2nd. Ave ( 4 tracks , express / local ). One line would terminate on Upper East Side and the other would use the 63rd. St. tunnel under the East River into Queens , terminating at La Guardia Airport. Some upgrades would be needed for the SI subway line. What do you think about it ? Well , thats my dream plan for the 2nd. Ave. line.
- Subject: Re: Regional Express plan ( Rx )
- Message Number: 756717
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Jul 16 12:53:15 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Regional Express plan ( Rx ) posted by Ted Nielsen on July 15, 1997 at 20:21:34: >What do you think about Gov. Pataki's plan called the Regional >Express plan ? He's dreaming. First of all, I don't know whether you or the plan mentioned access to Wall Street for NJT trains, but don't expect to see ANYthing from Pataki that benefits New Jersey residents in any way. That fact alone would be enough to squash that tunnel. The current plans to bring LIRR trains to Grand Central, and an extended tunnel from Grand Central would be sufficient for Wall Street access for both MNRR and LIRR trains. But where would you put the terminal? You'd need maybe 20 tracks, at least. The West Side rail line is an interesting idea which has been brought up here before but since below Penn Station any remains of it are on elevated structure, and the ROW has been obstructed, so I doubt it would see any use for LIRR trains, or a new extreme-West Side subway. I'd be interested to know how many LIRR passengers heading to Flatbush Avenue branch end up going to Wall Street or do most of them use the west side subway lines. The A/C and 2/3 trains already serve Wall Street area from Penn Station. A subway shuttle between Penn, GCT, and downtown? well there are already "subway shuttles" between downtown and the two stations individually. So I don't know what the benefit would be of additional subway construction to do this. How many passengers need to transfer between LIRR and MNRR anyway? (Or, what would be the value of through-routing trains via the proposed Flatbush-Downtown-GCT tunnel?) Probably not much. I think more people would use a Penn-GCT transfer to transfer between the MNRR and Amtrak southbound lines, but keep in mind that people using the MNRR New Haven branch already have access to Amtrak southbound trains and wouldn't need to transfer between GCT and Penn, and people using the Hudson branch can access Albany-bound Amtrak trains without having to go into GCT as well. Pataki being the governor of NY State, I can see why he concentrated on commuter rail access. His token inclusion of NJ in his Penn Station plan was just there so as to not piss off Gov. Whitman too much without addressing the pending problem. As a NJ resident myself a lot needs to be done to improve access to NYC from this side of the river. Light rail plans in Hudson and Bergen are going to put the squeeze on the already squoze (? squeezed? squizzen?) PATH system, with no plans to improve capacity there. NJT's plans to push more and more trains (from the Morris & Essex branches) and more and more people (from the Bergen branches via Secaucus Transfer) into Penn Station are going to max out the Penn Tunnels, perhaps requiring a twinning in the very near future. Amtrak's high-speed plan will require more bandwidth as well (the twinned tunnel and an increase to four tracks from Newark Penn to New York Penn) I think the proposed route of the Second Avenue subway is just fine as it is (Whitehall Street to 125th Street, then some method of getting into the Bronx). Red Hook in Brooklyn could use some subway connection but perhaps this area is best served by light rail, connecting from Hoyt-Schermerhorn, via Red Hook, back to Smith/9th. I was toying with an idea the other day regarding possible subway connections. The East Side IRT could be connected to the lower level of the Broadway BMT (north of the IRT Fulton St. station and south of BMT City Hall station). The tracks here are within 1 or 2 blocks of each other underneath Broadway. Then, rebuild the BMT Broadway line around Canal Street such that the lower level of City Hall becomes the express tracks at Canal Street (and possibly abandon the south side bridge tracks at Canal Street). At the north end, the Broadway BMT and the West Side IRT are again within 1 or 2 blocks of each other around 57th Street. Make a connection there from the BMT express to the IRT (local, express, or both). Then, you could run IRT trains express on the Broadway BMT, stopping at 42nd, 34th, 14th, and City Hall lower level (with widend platforms on the express side and IRT signals, before anyone exclaims IRT trains can't run on BMT lines). This would give an express route from the Wall Street area to the West Side, express service on the Broadway line (allowing the south side bridge to be abandoned once and for all), and also allow East Side trains from the Bronx travel down the West Side, around possible disruptions on the Lex IRT. It would also allow West Side IRT trains coming from Brooklyn to bypass problems on the 7th Ave branch by using the Joralemon St. Tunnel (4/5 Trains). Hey, it's not as silly as some of that Pataki crap. Besides any study that costs 15 million is ridiculous. I'd do it for 1 million. :) Some other things I've heard bandied about at the ERA or elsewhere is a tunnel connecting the north side bridge tracks north of DeKalb ave to the Rutgers St. tunnel. (Was that Mark F. who suggested that?). There's also some talk about a tunnel under Prospect Park connecting the Brighton to the 4th Avenue lines but without the South Side manhattan bridge tracks that wouldn't add capacity, it would just add reroute potential, IMHO. -Dave
  - Subject: Re: Regional Express plan ( Rx )
  - Message Number: 756869
  - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
  - Date: Mon Aug 25 19:54:06 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Regional Express plan ( Rx ) posted by David Pirmann on July 16, 1997 at 12:53:15: Dave .... very good points. Something else that I think was completely omitted from the Regional Express Plan is that the Manhattan Bridge is going to be a pain in the girders for years to come. In fact, I think it will be the number one infrastructure problem that NYC Transit (and the Dept of Transportation) will have to face in the next 20 years. The length of time it is taking to repair the bridge seems to indicate, to me at least, that the structural integrity of the bridge is far worse off than anyone seems willing to admit. I think an alternative to the bridge will need to be constructed, whether that's a new span or an underground crossing ot two. What I think you'll see happen in 10 years is the banning of commercial traffic from the Manhattan Bridge, and that isn't going to sit well with commuters because where would the trucks go? The Battery Tunnel or the Williamsburgh Bridge. (Yep - I made the Rutgers St tunnel connection suggestion in my "in the year 2020" post). --Mark
    - Subject: Re: Regional Express plan ( Rx )
    - Message Number: 756876
    - Posted by: subway-buff
    - Date: Mon Aug 25 19:54:12 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Regional Express plan ( Rx ) posted by David Pirmann on July 16, 1997 at 12:53:15: In regards to connecting the BMT "bridge" with the "F" ast the Rutgers Tunnel: I went on the recent "By Subway to Brighton"Tour with the Transit Musuem. I asked Joe the Expert about such a connection at/near DeKalb and he told me that it would be better at the Southwest end of Prospect Park. I too feel that at some point the Manhattan and WIlliamsburg Bridge tracks will have to go- we can't lose 1000 people, and that's just one train!. Many times I have seen 3-4 trains (including "mine" on the bridge. I look for the J to end at Marcy with a free ferry to Essex, the M to be in two pieces- shuttle from Metropolitan to Marcy and Essex to Broad (Non-Rush), Bay Pkwy(Rush) and Chambers (Nites/weekend). Regarding NJ: I dont think anything will happen due to the Govts feudinmg over the other side getting more benefits so the rails suffer. As to New York Penn- NJT is planning an additional concourse, creating a "station within a station" including a dedicated NJT waiting area with Ticket offices and more exits. NJT is also negotiating for a new exit to 7th ave and 31st.
      - Subject: Re: Regional Express plan ( Rx )
      - Message Number: 756914
      - Posted by: Dan Casey
      - Date: Mon Aug 25 19:54:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Regional Express plan ( Rx ) posted by Ted Nielsen on July 15, 1997 at 20:21:34: I don't know if Pataki's Rx plan differs significantly from the Regional Plan Association's, but their plan (at http://maestro.com/~rpa/rxintro.html) leaves a whole lot to be desired. First of all, Rx is there to increase land values in Lower Manhattan. Digging new tunnels so that arbitrageurs from L.I. and Jersey can get to work without having to transfer to a subway is *not a good use of transit dollars.* They propose $20 billion, spent over 20 years, for this thing, yet it "should not starve the existing system." Sure. How does the city come up with its share? "RPA has proposed that the City of New York lease its four East River Bridges to a private operating firm, in exchange for the design, construction, and maintenance of parallel transit routes." A DBOM contract secured by leasing the Brooklyn Bridge. What valuable subway infrastructure would be eaten up? The loss of the Broadway BMT express tracks was already mentioned in an earlier post. And get this one: a Second Avenue subway (oops, I meant commuter train from Nassau County) "extended north to Co-op City, replacing obsolete elevated sections of the White Plains Road subway line with a joint-service tunnel under Boston Post Road and on the surface replacing the existing Dyre Avenue IRT subway line." Some of the Rx plans are good. But the whole system as thought up by the RPA is a classic example of Manhattan-centric silliness, inventing a problem (such as the lack of "a one-seat ride from Port Washington to the UN") and putting forth an outlandish solution for it at the same time. It's transit money better spent elsewhere. -Dan Casey

Thread title: More on Frames. Lynx too. (756701)
Started on Tue Jul 15 22:31:21 1997, by David Pirmann

Subject: More on Frames. Lynx too.
Message Number: 756701
Posted by: David Pirmann
Date: Tue Jul 15 22:31:21 1997

In Reply to: [6]New Frames-based pages posted by David Pirmann on July 14, 1997 at 21:05:05: Well I came up with a workable combination which I like better (I too don't care much for frames. They are usually not done very well.) Take a look at the layout of the top level pages now. They are what I call frames-by-tables. Not exactly what tables are supposed to be for, but whatever. :) They're done via server-side includes (as are all the other pages here in terms of standard header and footers) so maintenance is easy. By the way, I don't know if anyone other than me really cares, but all of the top level pages are Lynx-friendly. I think all of the pages qualify as "mostly" Lynx-friendly.) (One other note. For the GUI challenged, Lynx 2.7 handles frames, in albeit a unique manner.)
- Subject: Re: More on Frames. Lynx too.
- Message Number: 756707
- Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
- Date: Wed Jul 16 09:44:29 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]More on Frames. Lynx too. posted by David Pirmann on July 15, 1997 at 22:31:21: No good Dave -- I am getting an error "executing directive" ??? BTW, when frames are used it is possible to call up the sub-page from the main box by entering it directly as a URL.

Thread title: Re: 2nd Ave. Subway Plans (was Regional Express plan ( Rx )) (756704)
Started on Tue Jul 15 23:46:31 1997, by Andrew Byler

Subject: Re: 2nd Ave. Subway Plans (was Regional Express plan ( Rx ))
Message Number: 756704
Posted by: Andrew Byler
Date: Tue Jul 15 23:46:31 1997

In Reply to: [6]Regional Express plan ( Rx ) posted by Ted Nielsen on July 15, 1997 at 20:21:34: I like your basic idea. Let me relate my own concerning the 2nd Ave. Subway and other lines, with regard to how sections of it have been built and planned. A few things need to be kept in mind with the 2nd Ave. Subway, because it is designed to be fundementally different than other New York Subways. First off, it is a two track line in the sections laready built, not a four track line, which is more typical. Second, it is designed for high speeds (70 mph - a speed achieved in Subway only by Philly's Broad St. Express trains) and wide station spacing. Third, connections are already built into the 63rd St. tunnel to allow BMT Broadway express trains to continue north up 2nd Ave., and to allow other trains from Queens to turn south down 2nd Ave. The proposed stations are: Triborough Plaza, 109th St., 96th St., 86th St., 72nd St., 57th St., 42nd St., 28th St., 14th St., Houston, Grand St., Park Row, Cedar St., Whitehall. My idea from from Whitehall is that the line would swing south and east across the East River to the Court St. Station (Current Transit Museum), and via a rebuilt interlocking which would allow it and the A/C trains to access either the express or local tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, join with that line. One branch would follow this line as an express, and in a continuation of the Pitkin Ave. tunnel under Pitkin and 107th Ave. beyond Euclid Ave station, eventually hit the old LIRR right of way, which it take to past Howard Beach, where it would swing in to JFK. The other line would branch off at Flatbush Ave. to join the BMT 4th Ave. tunnel. It would follow this on the express tracks to south of 59th St. where the dummy leads currently end pointing at Staten Island. it would follow these leads, and end up in St. George. From St. George, it could operate as two lines - one to Tottenville via the SIRT, the other along the north shore to New Jersey and a possible connection with the NEC and then the Raritan Valley line at Cranford. At the 63rd St. Tunnel, I'd agree that a line should go to LaGuardia. Specifically, I think the previously mentioned JFK line should. It could branch use the Queens-Local connection to the E-F express tracks under Northern Blvd. to Broadway, where the would branch off before the express tracks rejoin the locals, and follow either the BQE right of way (which would be cheaper) or Northern Blvd. to 94th St. to get to LaGuardia. In any case, by pairing the airport lines together, special cars with some luggage rack space could be used. At the north end of the 2nd Ave line, the trains from Staten Island would continue north and east under the Harlem river to the old Westchester right of way. With a stop in Hunts Point and one at 180th St., they would then take over the Dyre Ave. line, and continue up the old Westchester right of way through Mount Vernon, New Rochelle, and Scarsdale to White Plains. Stops along the way would be made at E. 6th, Columbus Ave., Lincoln Ave., New Rochelle Rd., North Ave., Stratton Ave., heathcote Rd., Ridgeway Ave., etc. up to White Plains. This would thus give a high speed commuter type line on either end. Finally, the Broadway trains brought over on to the 2nd Ave. could be swung across under 125th St., stopping at Park Ave., Lenox Ave., and 8th Ave., to connect to the extra two tracks between 125th St. and 145th St., which they would follow up the local tracks to 168th St., from there, after a stop at the Port Authority terminal, they would continue across the GW Bridge to Fort Lee, and follow Main St./Fort Lee Rd. out to the I-95/I-80 junction, where a large Park and Ride lot could be built. One final note - since the 5 will now find its Bronx end chopped off, a new subway could finally be built under 3rd Ave. in the Bronx for either it to follow up to 238th St. Well, that's my pipe dream if New York metro area had no money problems. Andy
- Subject: Re: 2nd Ave. Subway Plans (was Regional Express plan ( Rx ))
- Message Number: 756982
- Posted by: blaise
- Date: Mon Aug 25 19:55:38 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: 2nd Ave. Subway Plans (was Regional Express plan ( Rx )) posted by Andrew Byler on July 15, 1997 at 23:46:31: How about taking the 2nd Ave. line over to Randalls Island at 125th St., to connect with the existing tracks Amtrak isn't using, and on up to Co-op City?
  - Subject: Re: 2nd Ave. Subway Plans (was Regional Express plan ( Rx ))
  - Message Number: 757023
  - Posted by: Idnaflesymem
  - Date: Mon Aug 25 19:56:12 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: 2nd Ave. Subway Plans (was Regional Express plan ( Rx )) posted by blaise on July 23, 1997 at 03:43:32: AmTrak IS using those tracks.
    - Subject: Re: 2nd Ave. Subway Plans (was Regional Express plan ( Rx ))
    - Message Number: 757037
    - Posted by: Andrew Byler
    - Date: Mon Aug 25 19:56:23 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: 2nd Ave. Subway Plans (was Regional Express plan ( Rx )) posted by blaise on July 23, 1997 at 03:43:32: That is actually the general plan, if you look at the 2nd Ave. documents on this site. However the tracks you are thinking of are not Amtrak - they are old New York, Westchester and Boston tracks, which end up at 180th St. on the Dyre Ave. line. The plan was to swing under the East River and connect in the old yard in the S. Bronx at 132nd St., then continue northwards with a stop in Hunts Point to connect to the 6. Andy Byler

Thread title: missed connections (756706)
Started on Wed Jul 16 09:22:01 1997, by aaron

Subject: missed connections
Message Number: 756706
Posted by: aaron
Date: Wed Jul 16 09:22:01 1997

I have noticed over the past year that conductors at major transfer points never hold doors open to wait for passengers changing from local to express trains. This is happening at Chambers Street 2/3 - 1/9, Nevins Street 2/3 - 4/5 and Jay Street A/C - F. As soon as platforms are clear, they close up the doors, even if a train is just arriving on local/express platform. Has a new policy been implemented to discourage them from allowing passengers to make these connections?
- Subject: Re: missed connections
- Message Number: 756713
- Posted by: frequent subway rider
- Date: Wed Jul 16 11:39:34 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]missed connections posted by aaron on July 16, 1997 at 09:22:01: I lived in New York for almost twenty years and recently moved to the Southwest. I have NEVER seen "conductors at major transfer points . . . hold doors open to wait for passengers changing from local to express trains"!!! During most of the time I lived in New York, I traveled on the 1, 2, 3, and 9 (West-Side IRT lines). In fact, many times, I have seen operators at major transfer points waiting on the platform with the doors open while an incoming train approaches. As soon as the operator saw the approaching train, he closed the doors and took off! This is typical of the way most MTA personnel view the public: "Pretend that they don't exist and, when possible make their life miserable!"
  - Subject: Re: missed connections
  - Message Number: 756722
  - Posted by: John
  - Date: Wed Jul 16 14:04:50 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: missed connections posted by frequent subway rider on July 16, 1997 at 11:39:34: The conductors also have a thing about closing the doors in one's face. This happened to me on so many occasians, I lost count, but a couple were the fault of my friend, who is totally disorganized and extremely clumsy. In addition, he doesn't know the layout of the subway from a map of Athens. Here's an example of his clumsiness: A couple weeks ago, we were going downtown on the #6 train, headed to Chinatown, so we were getting off at Canal St. Now, I am always standing by the door before my train even gets to the station. So the train comes into Canal, the doors open, and I get out and start for the turnstiles, however, my friend (his initials are J.T.) was still sitting while the doors were open, so it's no surprise that we almost got separated. I had to run back, shove my hand between the door leafs and holler out to the conductor to re-open the doors. I tell you; it's an extreme drag and exhaustion with this guy
    - Subject: Re: missed connections
    - Message Number: 756724
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Wed Jul 16 18:39:16 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]missed connections posted by aaron on July 16, 1997 at 09:22:01: The answers from "Frequent Subway Rider" & "John" not withstanding, let me try to explain to you why this occurs. In short, connections on the subway are not built into the peak hour schedules, unlike the LIRR and MN RRs. If two trains happen to meet at a station during the rush hour it is coincidence, not design. During peak hours, service on some lines may include trains on a 1 minute headway. Therefore, if a Conductor holds his doors for 30 or 40 seconds to make a connection, he may delay the trrain behind him. In addition, on time performance is rated by the # of late trains. A train is late if it arrives late by more than 1/2 of it's scheduled interval. This means if N trains are 5 minutes apart, a train arriving at Stillwell Ave 3 minutes behind schedule is late. There are 6 major connection points on the N line. If the Conductor holds the doors just 30 seconds extra at those 6 stations, to make connections, the train is late. And finally, contrary to what Mr Frequent & John have to say, there is no conspiracy to hit customers with doors or cause them to wait deliberately. These are the usual rantings of two people who have no understanding of anything they are talking about. I ride the trains, several times a day. I even miss a connection now & then. It's just not planned or deliberate.
      - Subject: Re: missed connections
      - Message Number: 756845
      - Posted by: Frequent Subway Rider
      - Date: Mon Aug 25 19:53:48 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: missed connections posted by Steve on July 16, 1997 at 18:39:16: As far as Mr. Steve's comment about a "conspiracy to hit customers with doors or cause them to wait deliberately," this is pure nonsense. No one said anything about a conspiracy. We're talking about complete indifference--not conspiracy. Secondly, in response to Mr. Steve's remark that the comments about lack of service "are the usual rantings of two people who have no understanding of anything they are talking about," I can only say that my knowledge comes from observations from 20 years of frequent ridership. I am the customer. I am the ultimate judge of the service I receive. I understand the concepts of scheduling and accountability very well. Scheduling, accountability, efficiency, care for the way the customer perceives the service he is receiving--all of these should be a given. However, these concepts become a sham when they're used as an excuse for ignoring the needs of the ridership (as in your example about scheduling). Missing a connection is not something that happens on rare occasions, as you imply. Once again, I state that I have seen operators sitting in stations at major transfer points, with the doors open (and no passengers trying to get on or off). I have seen these same operators close the doors and take off when an approaching train enters a station. I have seen this many, many times--not just on rare occasions. Once again, no one is saying there is any sort of conspiracy (that's a paranoid delusion). Nevertheless, it DOES demonstrate a complete indifference to the needs of the ridership that MTA personnel are supposed to serve.
        
        Subject: Re: missed connections
        Message Number: 756859
        Posted by: Zack
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:53:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: missed connections posted by John on July 16, 1997 at 14:04:50: put a child chord inbetween u and him :)
        
        Subject: Re: missed connections
        Message Number: 756864
        Posted by: John
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:54:02 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: missed connections posted by Zack on July 17, 1997 at 22:52:13: It feels like I do already!!!!
        
        Subject: Re: missed connections
        Message Number: 756881
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:54:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: missed connections posted by Frequent Subway Rider on July 17, 1997 at 12:59:03: Taking your comments personally, let me say this: So all you know about running a subway system comes from many years of being a frequent rider. Would that qualify a person with a chronic illness to be a doctor or a frequent flier to be a pilot. Of course not and you have not the slightest idea of what you speak about. I'd love to sit you in a moderately busy tower like Columbus Circle on a Friday morning and watch you try to make every connection. By the time you made your second connection, your railroad would be backed up 2 -3 stations. Within your first hour, you'd have a railroad running 15 - 20 minutes late. By the time the AM rush was over, you'd have terminal congestion at both 205th Street and 207th street forcing the dispatchers there to lay up too few trains. Many bad order trains would remain in service as would dirty ones. If the late railroad doesn't move you, what about the late crews. Finishing crews would be forced to make anadditional trip because the scheduled crew was stuck in a delay somewhere down the line. Each crew on overtime would earn a minimum of 4 hours of overtime. That's about $400.00 for each crew, each trip. What about the wasted money for the late crews who will then sit idle because their train has already left with an OT crew. Finally, while you hold a train to make a connection for 50 - 100 customers, what about the other 2,000 or 2,500 people on that train who you are needlessly delaying. What about the connections they'll miss furthe down the line. Do me a favor, if you think being a customer qualifies you to run the operation, try making fries at Mickey Ds.
        
        Subject: Re: missed connections
        Message Number: 756893
        Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:54:26 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: missed connections posted by Steve on July 18, 1997 at 23:01:05: Gut gezokt! Well said Steve!
        
        Subject: Re: missed connections
        Message Number: 756922
        Posted by: shorty thomas
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:54:50 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: missed connections posted by Zack on July 17, 1997 at 22:52:13: why do they do that? why do they see the oncoming train, proceed to appear as tho they are waiting for this train, and then as soon as the doors open up, they close their doors swiftly and pull out the station. I believe they want to keep the public aggravated.
        
        Subject: Re: missed connections
        Message Number: 756926
        Posted by: Dan Schwartz
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:54:53 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: missed connections posted by shorty thomas on July 21, 1997 at 15:27:14: I don't think it is frequent for trains that have waited in a station beyond the time required to load and unload passengers to then leave when another train enters the station. Generally, conductors are supposed to close the doors when loading/unloading is complete, and the train then moves on. The exception is if the train is held in the station by "supervision". Many stations used to have orange "holding lights" that were used to signal the conductor to hold doors open and wait for a connection. Have these been taken down? At any rate, they ought to build allowance for making connections into the schedule. With the computers available today, it should be possible to construct schedules that predict which trains will meet at which stations, even with the tight headways used on the subways. If something delays one of the trains, then yes, scheduled connections would be missed, but they would surely be made more often than not.
        
        Subject: Re: missed connections
        Message Number: 756935
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:55:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: missed connections posted by Dan Schwartz on July 21, 1997 at 17:40:54: The holding lights are still in place at virtually all connection points and at some adjacent 'gap' stations. You are correct in that the decission of whether or not to make a connection is not that of the conductor. The 'simple' act of holding a train for a connection, or not holding the train, is not made on the based on a desire to aggrivate the customers. It is made by the Train Dispatcher or Assistant train Dispatcher. That decission is based on the time of day, the condition of the railroad in front of the train and the railroad behind the train.
        
        Subject: Re: missed connections
        Message Number: 756960
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:55:20 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: missed connections posted by Steve on July 21, 1997 at 20:30:33: Steve, I have a question. In a case where let's say it's 10:30 PM and a southbound E train arrives at Roosevelt Ave-Jackson Hgts and a G train (local) arrives less than 30 seconds later. If the E-train doesn't have the holding lights, according to the TA rulebook what is the conductor of the E-train to do? Close his/her doors or wait for a connection with the G train?
        
        Subject: Re: missed connections
        Message Number: 756977
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:55:34 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: missed connections posted by Wayne Johnson on July 22, 1997 at 11:50:57: Interesting point but I think Roosevelt Ave. has holding lights in place. However, assuming that there were not, I did some research. TA Rule 107p (old rule book) states that a conductor must govern his operation by the starting (green) or holding (orange) lights when installed. The rule book makes no provision for connections when holding lights are not in place. On the other hand, RTO personnel are governed by bulletins which are published periodically. I believe that there is one covering the making of connections during non-commission hours. I will research that for you too.
        
        Subject: Re: missed connections
        Message Number: 756993
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:55:47 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: missed connections posted by Steve on July 22, 1997 at 20:07:03: Steve, First, thank you for researching this for me. I think in my question I implied that there are no holding lights in place at Roosevelt Ave. Station. If I remember correctly there are indeed holding lights at this station. In my original question/scenario I meant that the E train while in the station the holding lights would not have been on to hold it there - is the conductor allowed to hold his/her doors open for the arriving G train? Many thanks again, Wayne
        
        Subject: Re: missed connections
        Message Number: 757014
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:56:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: missed connections posted by Wayne Johnson on July 23, 1997 at 10:09:00: To answer your question - sort of. I was on a northbound A train this morning. We passed a northbound B train at 116th Street. When we got to 125th Street, without holding lights and without my asking the Conductor, he most certainly held the doors open on the A train for the arriving B train. However, the conductor knew that a B train was behind him because he passed it, much like an E train conductor would know a G train was coming because he would have likely passed it. On the other hand, If the G train was in Roosevelt Ave. the conductor would have no way of knowing that an E or F train were approaching and once the train operator gets his indication, it has to be a matter of safety for the conductor to take it away. Making a connnection would not qualify.

Thread title: Re: Track Maps NJT 1997 (756710)
Started on Wed Jul 16 10:54:09 1997, by steve lowenthal

Subject: Re: Track Maps NJT 1997
Message Number: 756710
Posted by: steve lowenthal
Date: Wed Jul 16 10:54:09 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Track Maps posted by Andrew Byler on July 14, 1997 at 17:51:57: I AM LOOKING FOR TRACK MAPS AND CHARTS ,UPDATED TO SHOW CHANGES IN INTERLOCKINGS DURING 19996
- Subject: Re: Track Maps NJT 1997
- Message Number: 756711
- Posted by: steve lowenthal
- Date: Wed Jul 16 10:54:16 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Track Maps posted by Andrew Byler on July 14, 1997 at 17:51:57: I AM LOOKING FOR TRACK MAPS AND CHARTS ,UPDATED TO SHOW CHANGES IN INTERLOCKINGS DURING 1996

Thread title: PATH TRACK MAPS 1997 NEW JERSEY (756712)
Started on Wed Jul 16 10:57:10 1997, by STEVE LOWENTHAL

Subject: PATH TRACK MAPS 1997 NEW JERSEY
Message Number: 756712
Posted by: STEVE LOWENTHAL
Date: Wed Jul 16 10:57:10 1997

I AM LOOKING FOR UPDATED TRACK CHANGES TO PATH ,,FRM PORTALS IN NEW JERSEY TO AND INCLUDING NEWARK,,ALSO,,LOOKING FOR TRACK MAPS OF THE PATH EXTENSION TO NEWARK AIRPORT HAYNES AV STATION,INCLUSIVE
- Subject: Re: PATH TRACK MAPS 1997 NEW JERSEY
- Message Number: 756716
- Posted by: David Pirmann
- Date: Wed Jul 16 12:13:24 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]PATH TRACK MAPS 1997 NEW JERSEY posted by STEVE LOWENTHAL on July 16, 1997 at 10:57:10: Um, there is no "extension to Newark Airport" so you aren't going to find a track map for it. I hadn't even heard that it had been seriously considered. I think the only work being done or planned is to extend the Airport Monorail to a new station on the Northeast Corridor. The PATH system isn't involved, BUT if there has been anything drafted other than a possible proposed route, I'd be interested to know. By the way, Steve, have you ever *found* anything you've been looking for here? --Dave
  - Subject: Re: PATH TRACK MAPS 1997 NEW JERSEY
  - Message Number: 756721
  - Posted by: John
  - Date: Wed Jul 16 13:53:42 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: PATH TRACK MAPS 1997 NEW JERSEY posted by David Pirmann on July 16, 1997 at 12:13:24: I think NJ Transit is considering extending the Newark Subway from Penn Station into Elizabeth and on to Newark Airport.
    - Subject: Re: PATH TRACK MAPS 1997 NEW JERSEY
    - Message Number: 756837
    - Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
    - Date: Mon Aug 25 19:53:41 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: PATH TRACK MAPS 1997 NEW JERSEY posted by David Pirmann on July 16, 1997 at 12:13:24: I failed to understand what was meant by Dave's last comment in response to Steve Lowenthal's request "Have you ever *found* what you were looking for here?"?
      - Subject: Re: PATH TRACK MAPS 1997 NEW JERSEY
      - Message Number: 756875
      - Posted by: steve lowenthal
      - Date: Mon Aug 25 19:54:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: PATH TRACK MAPS 1997 NEW JERSEY posted by John on July 16, 1997 at 13:53:42: as of thursday,,,,no extensions planned per path engineering personnel

Thread title: Questions! (756720)
Started on Wed Jul 16 13:43:23 1997, by WW

Subject: Questions!
Message Number: 756720
Posted by: WW
Date: Wed Jul 16 13:43:23 1997

Hi! I am doing a research project on the problems of the subway, any ideas? Thanx.
- Subject: Re: Questions!
- Message Number: 756723
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Wed Jul 16 16:21:28 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Questions! posted by WW on July 16, 1997 at 13:43:23: There are definitely some problems with the subway, but you probably need to be a bit more specific.
  - Subject: Re: Questions!
  - Message Number: 756839
  - Posted by: WW
  - Date: Mon Aug 25 19:53:43 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Questions! posted by Wayne Johnson on July 16, 1997 at 16:21:28: Alright, I was thinking about how to improve the air quality of the Subways, and suggestions?
    - Subject: Re: Questions!
    - Message Number: 756879
    - Posted by: Wesley
    - Date: Mon Aug 25 19:54:14 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Questions! posted by WW on July 17, 1997 at 09:12:32: Don't allow people to eat Buritos on the system
      - Subject: Re: Questions!
      - Message Number: 756883
      - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      - Date: Mon Aug 25 19:54:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Questions! posted by Wesley on July 18, 1997 at 22:27:24: Don't you mean BEFORE riding the subway?
        
        Subject: Re: Questions!
        Message Number: 756884
        Posted by: Wesley
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:54:18 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Questions! posted by Gary Jacobi on July 18, 1997 at 23:17:05: absolutely - my mistake

Thread title: Steinway Street Station (756728)
Started on Wed Jul 16 21:46:02 1997, by Adam

Subject: Steinway Street Station
Message Number: 756728
Posted by: Adam
Date: Wed Jul 16 21:46:02 1997

Does anyone know what is going on with the Steinway Street station for the R and G trains? There used to be an entrance to the station located on the corner of 34th Avenue and Steinway right in front of the Salvation Army Thrift Store. Now, they have closed off this entrance and placed wood over the stairway. Are they closing it permanently or just doing construction? It is inconvenient because now you have to walk across the street to get into the station. If anyone knows anything about it, please post. Thanks!
- Subject: Re: Steinway Street Station
- Message Number: 756878
- Posted by: Wesley
- Date: Mon Aug 25 19:54:14 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Steinway Street Station posted by Adam on July 16, 1997 at 21:46:02: Rumor is that a new tunnel is being dug into Sunnyside yard. TA is supposedly building a new yard there.

Thread title: Refrigerants and Subway Cars (756740)
Started on Thu Jul 17 12:12:54 1997, by Joe Camel

Subject: Refrigerants and Subway Cars
Message Number: 756740
Posted by: Joe Camel
Date: Thu Jul 17 12:12:54 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Any new cars becides as the R68's posted by John on July 15, 1997 at 06:13:20: Sorry if you don't understand. In the world of refrigerants R11 is Freon, the Chlorofluorocarbon (CFC) containing chemical that was outlawed in 1995. R11 is used in air conditioners (of course the subway cars I mentioned never had air conditioning). Car air conditioners use R12 instead, also ozone depleting. Because the chemicals would be outlawed, an alternative chemical named R134 was developed and is used as a refrigerant in all new Air Conditioning systems.
- Subject: Re: Refrigerants and Subway Cars
- Message Number: 756748
- Posted by: John
- Date: Thu Jul 17 14:01:34 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Refrigerants and Subway Cars posted by Joe Camel on July 17, 1997 at 12:12:54: Oh, man! I didn't even realize you were talking about refrigerants, my mind was locked on subway cars! In that case, yes, R-134 will most likely be used in the R-134 :-)
  - Subject: Re: Refrigerants and Subway Cars
  - Message Number: 757172
  - Posted by: Steve
  - Date: Mon Aug 25 19:58:12 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Refrigerants and Subway Cars posted by Joe Camel on July 17, 1997 at 12:12:54: R-11 is not a refrigerant at least none that I've ever heard of. R-12 is used in most older autos. Most home appliances and all NYCT cars and busses use Freon 22.
    - Subject: Re: Refrigerants and Subway Cars
    - Message Number: 757243
    - Posted by: Philip nasadowski
    - Date: Mon Aug 25 19:59:07 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Refrigerants and Subway Cars posted by Steve on August 02, 1997 at 20:20:08: Actually, there IS an R-11 (refrigerant, not subway car ;) it's used in cetrifugal compressor systems. actually, it's not used very much, and mostly in huge systems i think. Although most central A/Cs are 22, 12 is more widely used than you'd think... I've seen a LARGE number of 12 room a/c and freezers.
      - Subject: Re: Refrigerants and Subway Cars
      - Message Number: 757255
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Mon Aug 25 19:59:17 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Refrigerants and Subway Cars posted by Steve on August 02, 1997 at 20:20:08: Thanks for the correction. I'm sure that there are dozens of obscure refrigerant types in use throughout the world. However, I believe that my posting was in response to one which suggested that R-11 refrigerant was used in NYCT equipment.

Thread title: What areas are bad in Chicago for Crime, WAS: Re: Crime on subway/el systems (756741)
Started on Thu Jul 17 12:20:22 1997, by Brian from chicago

Subject: What areas are bad in Chicago for Crime, WAS: Re: Crime on subway/el systems
Message Number: 756741
Posted by: Brian from chicago
Date: Thu Jul 17 12:20:22 1997

In Reply to: [6]Crime on subway/el systems posted by Timothy on July 13, 1997 at 15:20:26: The CTA El system here in Chicago is pretty safe. Soem Lines to stay away from ridding alltogether at night times hours ( 10 pm to 5 am) are. Douglas branch of the Blue Line, Dan Ryan segment of red line, and the whole green line.

Thread title: Re: NYC subway cars from East Germany? (756753)
Started on Thu Jul 17 21:58:13 1997, by Dan Lawrence

Subject: Re: NYC subway cars from East Germany?
Message Number: 756753
Posted by: Dan Lawrence
Date: Thu Jul 17 21:58:13 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC subway cars from East Germany? posted by John on July 17, 1997 at 13:16:56: There is no East Germany. The whole country was reunited several years ago after the Berlin Wall fell. As far as those of us in Baltimore know, no system in the US or Canada has ever bought cars from any of the Soviet Sattelites. Since the collapse of the Communist "Evil Empire" several companies have formed partnerships with car builders in Eastern Europe.
- Subject: Re: NYC subway cars from East Germany?
- Message Number: 756757
- Posted by: John
- Date: Fri Jul 18 00:07:41 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC subway cars from East Germany? posted by Dan Lawrence on July 17, 1997 at 21:58:13: HEllo?! Shouldn't this post be up a few lines? Maybe there's some kind of a BUG here???? WHAT'S GOING ON? Yeah, What's Going On, Oh, What's Going On. Ah, ya, ya, ya, ya! Aiy, yai, ya . . . . . sorry, guys, it's just that I'm listening to the song "What's Going On" right now, and I'm pretty involved. Don't mind me.
  - Subject: Re: NYC subway cars from East Germany?
  - Message Number: 756759
  - Posted by: Mark Greenwald
  - Date: Fri Jul 18 21:54:33 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC subway cars from East Germany? posted by Dan Lawrence on July 17, 1997 at 21:58:13: Dan, it's amazing how many systems get they're cars from Europe in general. I do know that the Breda cars come from Italy that serve the DC Metro---right down the road from you
    - Subject: Re: NYC subway cars from East Germany?
    - Message Number: 756760
    - Posted by: Dan Lawrence
    - Date: Sat Jul 19 23:51:02 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC subway cars from East Germany? posted by Mark Greenwald on July 18, 1997 at 21:54:33: I was referring to the former East Bloc countries, not Europe in general. US systems buy from other than USA manufacturers because the railcar industry no longer exists in this country.
      - Subject: NYC subway cars from East Germany?
      - Message Number: 756842
      - Posted by: Martin
      - Date: Mon Aug 25 19:53:45 1997
        
        Somewhere I heard that at some point subway cars had been bought from East Germany for the NYC subway system. Is that true, does anybody know about this? Please mail me since I don't check the group too often! Thanks, Martin.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC subway cars from East Germany?
        Message Number: 756848
        Posted by: John
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:53:50 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]NYC subway cars from East Germany? posted by Martin on July 17, 1997 at 11:15:53: I never heard about that. Sounds pretty interesting though.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC subway cars from East Germany?
        Message Number: 756856
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:53:56 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]NYC subway cars from East Germany? posted by Martin on July 17, 1997 at 11:15:53: No NYCT car are German made - East or West. However Budd, the builder of the R-32, M-1 and M-3 is now owned by a German firm. Also, Westinghouse, part of the consortium that built the R-68s is now Adtranz, also a german company.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC subway cars from East Germany?
        Message Number: 756861
        Posted by: Jason R. DeCesare
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:54:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]NYC subway cars from East Germany? posted by Martin on July 17, 1997 at 11:15:53: You may be thinking of the TA's two track geometry cars, which are made in Austria if I am not mistaking. A photo of TCG-1 can be found at [7]http://www.nycsubway.org/coney/tcg1.jpg.
        
        Subject: Re: NYC subway cars from East Germany?
        Message Number: 756868
        Posted by: Mark S Feinman
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:54:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]NYC subway cars from East Germany? posted by Martin on July 17, 1997 at 11:15:53: Heck - we could send THEM our redbirds when they're replaced and some people might wonder where the brand new rolling stock came from. I understand that some of the current rolling stock in East Germany is quite old. --Mark

Thread title: I don't believe there are any! ( Was Metra track Maps) (756761)
Started on Sun Jul 20 21:09:11 1997, by Brian

Subject: I don't believe there are any! ( Was Metra track Maps)
Message Number: 756761
Posted by: Brian
Date: Sun Jul 20 21:09:11 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: Metra track maps posted by David Pirmann on July 18, 1997 at 08:19:48: You might want to contact the freight railroads that own the majority of Metra lines. I can tell you that the BNSF is three tracks with side platforms except the Aurora end of the line stop which is a middle platform and a branch off the main line. the yards are located at the Aurora stop

Thread title: Re: But a subway is different! (756765)
Started on Tue Jul 22 16:36:50 1997, by Bingo

Subject: Re: But a subway is different!
Message Number: 756765
Posted by: Bingo
Date: Tue Jul 22 16:36:50 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: New Derailment posted by FRED WELLMAN on July 17, 1997 at 10:58:32: When you drive a car and get in an accident, one knows that either they themselves erred in the control of their vehicle, or someone else did. A subway is a mass-transit service where the rider has absolutely no control over the train. Millions of passengers put their trust in the operators training, experience and knowledge of the subway's safety systems. A passenger is never at fault in a subway accident. As to riding the subway after being in an accident, that would be up to the individual. I myself would ride again after a few weeks of asserting to myself i'd never get on again, but then again, I live in Toronto where the subways safety record is beyond reproach.
- Subject: Re: But a subway is different!
- Message Number: 756767
- Posted by: Steve
- Date: Tue Jul 22 20:11:17 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: But a subway is different! posted by Bingo on July 22, 1997 at 16:36:50: Safety is never beyond reproach. I guess that you missed the last little ooops the Toronto system had a year or so ago.
  - Subject: Re: But a subway is different!
  - Message Number: 756769
  - Posted by: Fred Wellman
  - Date: Wed Jul 23 18:10:33 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: But a subway is different! posted by Bingo on July 22, 1997 at 16:36:50: As a passenger in a car I have very little control over the driver. I guess we must agree to disagree.
    - Subject: Re: But a subway is different!
    - Message Number: 756777
    - Posted by: Bingo
    - Date: Thu Jul 24 18:04:58 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: But a subway is different! posted by Steve on July 22, 1997 at 20:11:17: Certainly not. TTC is still in the process of replacing the faulty Ericcson signals.

Thread title: Re: re: Buses (756771)
Started on Wed Jul 23 23:02:55 1997, by Fernando Perez

Subject: Re: re: Buses
Message Number: 756771
Posted by: Fernando Perez
Date: Wed Jul 23 23:02:55 1997

In Reply to: [6]Re: re: Buses posted by Wayne Johnson on July 23, 1997 at 17:48:57: I dont think NYCT will be purchasing any classics because of ADA requirements, and they are pretty much trying to stick to the same type of equipment despite different companies. Right now I hear that Novabus may be selling their bus manufacturing plant despite making over 1500 hundred buses last year. Right now transit is dealing a lot with new flyer of Canada for 150 articulate buses which are right now in service in the Bronx and low floor buses which permit wheel chairs to enter from the front. There is a contract for 70 of these. One is currently being tested at Mother Clara Hale depot in Harlem on the M1, M7 and BX33.
- Subject: Re: re: Buses
- Message Number: 756772
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Thu Jul 24 10:07:35 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: re: Buses posted by Fernando Perez on July 23, 1997 at 23:03:27: Yes, I ridden several of the New Flyer articulateds from Kingsbridge depot. I know that the TA was interested in articulated buses for years - in fact I rememeber them testing articulated buses built by MAN and Neoplan, but I was suprised when they selected New Flyer. Not that New Flyer doesn't build a good bus, but TA seems to test a bus for a long time before they will buy it and the New Flyer demonstrator wasn't in service very long before this order started to arrive. While were on the subject of New Flyer, I must say that I think the New Flyer low floor bus is definitely not a good idea for the TA to use.
  - Subject: Re: re: Buses
  - Message Number: 756773
  - Posted by: Fernando Perez
  - Date: Thu Jul 24 10:12:24 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: re: Buses posted by Wayne Johnson on July 24, 1997 at 10:07:35: I agree, I drove that same model when I worked at the Port Authority for a year and it wont make it in the pothole covered streets of Manhattan. There were times that the bus would scrape high sidewalks, etc. I told this to someone from research and development but I guess they are intent on this model. My best friend operates the articulates and he does not like them. I saw one for the first time in person the other day at 149St and 3av. in the Bronx, and I noticed that it really holds a lot of people.
    - Subject: Re: re: Buses
    - Message Number: 756774
    - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
    - Date: Thu Jul 24 14:23:57 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: re: Buses posted by Fernando Perez on July 24, 1997 at 10:12:24: I haven't talked to anyone who's operated the articulateds yet, but I have heard that some operators at Kingsbridge & Casey Stengel do not care for the Orions. I believe it was the first Orions that arrived in 1993 that were equipped with the 6V92 engines. If it's true then I feel sorry for Casey Stengel bus operators because that depot has nothing but Orions assigned to it.
      - Subject: Re: re: Buses
      - Message Number: 756775
      - Posted by: Wayne Johnson
      - Date: Thu Jul 24 16:59:32 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: re: Buses posted by Fernando Perez on July 23, 1997 at 23:03:27: Fernando, I forgot to say earlier that NovaBus Classics do meet ADA requirements. In fact they have the wheelchair lift in the front door like the New Flyers and most other buses except the RTS of course.
        
        Subject: Re: re: Buses
        Message Number: 756776
        Posted by: Fernando Perez
        Date: Thu Jul 24 17:11:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: re: Buses posted by Wayne Johnson on July 24, 1997 at 14:23:57: Rumors have it that one day only Casey Stengal and Jackie Gleason will have Orions, and KB will have RTS and Articulate'sa only. I dont like the Orions myself either, last year I had to drive one for 19a testing and I hated the way it felt. One good thing though, it is a fast!!! bus.
        
        Subject: Re: re: Buses
        Message Number: 756778
        Posted by: Zack
        Date: Thu Jul 24 19:39:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: re: Buses posted by Fernando Perez on July 24, 1997 at 17:11:09: I haerd that Orion was no longer takeing orders for buses????
        
        Subject: Re: re: Buses
        Message Number: 756779
        Posted by: Fernando Perez
        Date: Fri Jul 25 05:28:13 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: re: Buses posted by Zack on July 24, 1997 at 19:39:58: THey just received a big order for natural gas CNG's! 224 of them
        
        Subject: Re: re: Buses
        Message Number: 756780
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Fri Jul 25 09:10:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: re: Buses posted by Zack on July 24, 1997 at 19:39:58: I'm sure Orion/BIA will continue to accept orders - especially since the NYCT(A) seem to have taking a liking to Orion buses. I'm just glad that the NYCT fleet is getting something else other than RTS. RTS currently make up an overwhelming majority of the NYCT fleet. I really wish that the TA had purchased some Flxible Metros. In my opinion I feel the TA never made another purchase from Grumman/Flxible because they would have been admitting that they were wrong. After Grumman had repaired the defective 870 models (for all cities that bought them) NYCTA at the time complained that the buses were unfit for service - and of course most of those same buses are doing just fine at NJ Transit and a few went to Queen City Metro in Cincinatti.
        
        Subject: Re: re: Buses
        Message Number: 756782
        Posted by: Zack
        Date: Fri Jul 25 20:25:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: re: Buses posted by Wayne Johnson on July 25, 1997 at 09:10:41: Pierce transit in tacoma wa had some grumman they were lemons i havent seen one in years then i think they all gone now :( i think there were 870's they never purchased one again excpt some for seattle express witch i never got to ride :(
        
        Subject: Re: re: Buses
        Message Number: 756785
        Posted by: Fernando Perez
        Date: Tue Jul 29 00:21:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: re: Buses posted by Zack on July 24, 1997 at 19:39:58: No, 224 new Orions will be shipped by 1998 to Jackie Gleason depot in Brooklyn where a new gasser is being built to fuel them up in less than 5 minutes instead of the half hour it takes now to feull up the current CNG's (24)
        
        Subject: re: Buses
        Message Number: 756981
        Posted by: Fernando Perez
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:55:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Buses posted by John M. on July 14, 1997 at 16:32:28: MTA is going to build a natural gas fueling station at the Jackie Gleason depot in Brooklyn, in addition to purchasing 70 more natural gas Orion buses. I believe Orion industries has a web page about thier buses, but I dont recall the address. Try a web browser to find it
        
        Subject: Re: re: Buses
        Message Number: 756994
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:55:48 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]re: Buses posted by Fernando Perez on July 23, 1997 at 03:35:01: I thought that the TA already had some sort of CNG fueling station at Jackie Gleason depot, since there are CNG Orions there now. If not how are they being fueled at this time. Also do you know of the TA expressing interest in purchasing Novabus Classics?
        
        Subject: Re: re: Buses
        Message Number: 757001
        Posted by: Fernando Perez
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:55:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: re: Buses posted by Wayne Johnson on July 23, 1997 at 10:17:51: You are right! Gleason currently has 34 CNG's. By 1998 they are going to expand to 224.$5 million dollars in facilty upgrades will enable to depot to hold more and fuel each bus in a couple of minutes instead of the half hour it takes now for each bus. Transit defintely has more Nova's coming in but Im not sure if they are classics. Are the classics the same as the current Novas 8700-9200?
        
        Subject: Re: re: Buses
        Message Number: 757008
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:55:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: re: Buses posted by Fernando Perez on July 23, 1997 at 14:41:57: Hi Again, Sorry, I should've been more clear. The TA's 8700-9200 are from Novabus, but they are Novabus RTS's. Novabus classics are the buses that make up most of the fleet at Liberty Lines and New York Bus Service. The other private bus companies in Queens and Command in Brooklyn have Classics also, but all of these Classics in NYC are MCI Classics (before MCI-Motor Coach Industries sold the Classic line to Novabus). In fact here is the brief history of both models. First the RTS The RTS II was introduced in 1977 by General Motors. The first model came in two series - which was 01 & 03. They originally had a sloping back. 1980 GM introduced the RTS-04 series which had the current square back. 1986 GM introduced the RTS-06 series which looked pretty much identical to the 04 series. 1988 GM sold the RTS production line to MCI which is the same company that manfacturers MCI intercity coaches and owned Greyhound at the time. Approx 1996 MCI sold RTS line to NovaBus of Canada The Classic: Was introduced by General Motors of Canada in 1983, because most Canadian and some U.S. agencies did not like the RTS. GM-Canada sold the Classic line to MCI in 1987 MCI sold the Classic line to NovaBus in 1996 So while the TA has numerous RTS's they have no Classics at this time. Wayne
        
        Subject: Re: re: Buses
        Message Number: 757027
        Posted by: Fernando Perez
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:56:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: re: Buses posted by Wayne Johnson on July 23, 1997 at 17:48:57: I dont think NYCT will be purchasing any classics because of ADA requirements, and they are pretty much trying to stick to the same type of equipment despite different companies. Right now I hear that Novabus may be selling their bus manufacturing plant despite making over 1500 hundred buses last year. Right now transit is dealing a lot with new flyer of Canada for 150 articulate buses which are right now in service in the Bronx and low floor buses which permit wheel chairs to enter from the front. There is a contract for 70 of these. One is currently being tested at Mother Clara Hale depot in Harlem on the M1, M7 and BX33.
        
        Subject: Re: re: Buses
        Message Number: 757088
        Posted by: Jeff
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:57:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: re: Buses posted by Fernando Perez on July 23, 1997 at 23:03:27: Does anyone know where all the new buses will be assigned?
        
        Subject: Re: re: Buses
        Message Number: 757100
        Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:57:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: re: Buses posted by Jeff on July 27, 1997 at 18:27:18: Which new buses are you referring to? The New Flyer articulateds were assigned to the Kingsbridge Depot (Bronx Division) They are operating on routes Bx1, Bx2, Bx41 & Bx55. All CNG buses (34 BIA/Orion V) are assgined to Jackie Gleason Depot in Brooklyn.
        
        Subject: Re: re: Buses
        Message Number: 757116
        Posted by: Fernando Perez
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:57:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: re: Buses posted by Jeff on July 27, 1997 at 18:27:18: All the new Orions CNGs will be going to Jackie Gleason depot where a new cng fueling station is going to be built. Articulates are going to Kingsbridge and then Flatbush depot in Brooklyn. New RTS's and Low floor New Flyers are being split up to all Department of Buses depot according to what the big wigs decide!
        
        Subject: Re: re: Buses
        Message Number: 757156
        Posted by: NO ARTICS
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:57:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: re: Buses posted by Fernando Perez on July 29, 1997 at 00:17:54: The Artic's are going to Flatbush, that would be great (for me of course)!!!!

Thread title: Are there ant R-30's left (756786)
Started on Tue Jul 29 02:24:50 1997, by Zack

Subject: Are there ant R-30's left
Message Number: 756786
Posted by: Zack
Date: Tue Jul 29 02:24:50 1997

Were any R-30's saved??? are there any left???
- Subject: Re: Are there ant R-30's left
- Message Number: 756790
- Posted by: William A. Padron
- Date: Tue Jul 29 13:49:55 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Are there ant R-30's left posted by Zack on July 29, 1997 at 02:24:50: There is only ONE R-27 type car in existence today: #8145 - Pitkin Yard, Track 9 - South End Stub, Brooklyn (adjecent to R-10 car #3189, the R.C.I. Yard Office-School Training Car, on Track 8). The New York Transit Museum in Brooklyn has R-30 type car #8506 on display at the far west end of the south side train platform. There are also maybe a few other R-30's at Coney Island Yard (or in other locations), including cars 8289-8290 seen in full view from the deep southern end of the Coney Island-bound platform of the Avenue X - IND "F" line in Brooklyn. My best guess there could be no more than eight R-30 cars in existence, but their car numbers are unknown completely to myself at this time. Sincerely, William A. Padron
  - Subject: Re: Are there ant R-30's left
  - Message Number: 756794
  - Posted by: charles
  - Date: Wed Jul 30 09:03:30 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Are there ant R-30's left posted by William A. Padron on July 29, 1997 at 13:49:55: I believe that there are, besides the R30's in the museum, R30's "floating around" in work service. 8289- 8290 are NY transit police training cars they have a sign on them stating they are not to be stripped.
    - Subject: Re: Are there ant R-30's left
    - Message Number: 756809
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Wed Jul 30 23:07:33 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Are there ant R-30's left posted by Zack on July 29, 1997 at 02:24:50: There are 2 R-30s, which are used as school cars, in Concourse Yard.
      - Subject: Re: Are there ant R-30's left
      - Message Number: 757123
      - Posted by: John
      - Date: Mon Aug 25 19:57:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Are there ant R-30's left posted by Zack on July 29, 1997 at 02:24:50: I know that there is one in the Transit Museum, and I'm sure that there are many left.
        
        Subject: Re: Are there ant R-30's left
        Message Number: 757124
        Posted by: John
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:57:34 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Are there ant R-30's left posted by Zack on July 29, 1997 at 02:24:50: I know that there is one in the Transit Museum, and I'm sure that there are many others left.
        
        Subject: Re: Are there ant R-30's left
        Message Number: 757126
        Posted by: David Pirmann
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:57:35 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Are there ant R-30's left posted by Zack on July 29, 1997 at 02:24:50: Isn't that an R-27 in the museum? There are at least two R30's still in the "museum fleet" area of Coney Island.
        
        Subject: Re: Are there ant R-30's left
        Message Number: 757127
        Posted by: David L.
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:57:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Are there ant R-30's left posted by Zack on July 29, 1997 at 02:24:50: Is there a reason why all the train models start with "R"
        
        Subject: Re: Are there ant R-30's left
        Message Number: 757128
        Posted by: David L.
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:57:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Are there ant R-30's left posted by Zack on July 29, 1997 at 02:24:50: Is there a reason why all the train models start with "R"?
        
        Subject: Re: Are there ant R-30's left
        Message Number: 757130
        Posted by: Charles Fiori
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:57:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Are there ant R-30's left posted by David L. on July 29, 1997 at 10:08:27: All capital program contracts dealing with rolling stock begin with an R. Signals with an S, etc. There's more detail, but you get the idea. Even a contract for manufacture of destination signs in the early 80's, R-31463, had an R number.
        
        Subject: Re: Are there ant R-30's left
        Message Number: 757157
        Posted by: NO CHILDREN
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:57:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Are there ant R-30's left posted by David L. on July 29, 1997 at 10:08:27: Becuase the cars are rated R, so no children can go in them without their parents
        
        Subject: Re: Are there ant R-30's left
        Message Number: 757158
        Posted by: D.L.
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:58:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Are there ant R-30's left posted by NO CHILDREN on July 31, 1997 at 19:34:29: R you the idiot whose names are NO HANDOVER, NO COUNTY, NO VOTE, and NO FARE? If you R, here R two things you need to know - YOU R NOT FUNNY - GET A LIFE
        
        Subject: Re: Are there ant R-30's left
        Message Number: 757159
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:58:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Are there ant R-30's left posted by D.L. on July 31, 1997 at 21:25:12: Oh, come on DL, the guy is no threat to Bill Cosby or the like, but the R-rated train line IS funny... Get a sense of humor!
        
        Subject: Re: Are there ant R-30's left
        Message Number: 757164
        Posted by: John
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:58:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Are there ant R-30's left posted by Gary Jacobi on August 01, 1997 at 11:54:20: What I'd like to see (and ride in) is an X-30 train!!! :-)

Thread title: The Staten Island Handover!! (756787)
Started on Tue Jul 29 02:25:17 1997, by John

Subject: The Staten Island Handover!!
Message Number: 756787
Posted by: John
Date: Tue Jul 29 02:25:17 1997

I just thought of something. If Staten Island residents decided to break away from New York and become a part of New Jersey, who will operate the busses? Will NJ Transit acquire the current routes, purchase all the Staten Island busses from the MTA, paint them in NJT colors? Will they do the same with the SIRT? What if Staten Island becomes it's own state? What will happen then?
- Subject: Re: The Staten Island Handover!!
- Message Number: 756788
- Posted by: Wayne Johnson
- Date: Tue Jul 29 09:17:44 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]The Staten Island Handover!! posted by John on July 29, 1997 at 02:25:17: I thought that Staten Island's goal was not to join NJ, but to become an independent city. If this happens then my guess is that all of those wonderful public services they have now will dissappear. Maybe the state would arrange something because it would no longer be a part of NYC.
  - Subject: Re: The Staten Island Handover!!
  - Message Number: 756789
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Tue Jul 29 13:03:23 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]The Staten Island Handover!! posted by John on July 29, 1997 at 02:25:17: NJ doesn't want Staten Island. But we will take Liberty and Ellis Islands. :) At worst if SI chose to secede it will be from the City, not the State. Presumably it would then be treated as any other county in the state of New York with seperate municipality government (e.g. town mayors) and county government (freeholders, councilmen, whatever). I don't see why the MTA wouldn't continue to provide service - the MTA is not a city agency but rather a state agency. MTA Staten Island Railway could continue as it always has. It's really the services that the city provides that would be under question, e.g. Police, Fire Department, social services, etc. Maybe the existing services could be incorporated into county departments that in other places the municipalities provide. (That is, there wouldn't be a New Dorp Police Department and a St. George PD, but just a Richmond County PD.) All IMHO of course.
    - Subject: Re: The Staten Island Handover!!
    - Message Number: 756791
    - Posted by: Lou
    - Date: Tue Jul 29 18:07:35 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: The Staten Island Handover!! posted by Wayne Johnson on July 29, 1997 at 09:17:44: Yes it was to become the City of Staten Island within NY State. Because of the city/state "Home Rule" law, S.I. levaing the city will not happen. The State won't vote on it until the City Council approves it, or somthing like that. All I know as an ex-staten islander who voted to leave the city, the issue is dead in the water.
      - Subject: Re: The Staten Island Handover!!
      - Message Number: 756796
      - Posted by: Charlie Bonaire
      - Date: Wed Jul 30 11:37:02 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: The Staten Island Handover!! posted by Lou on July 29, 1997 at 18:07:35: When the settlers were divvying up the metro area, the New Yorkers were in a Bogart mindset. Imagine grabbing SI and Liberty Island, both a stone's throw from NJ. (Jerseyans have gotten over Miss Liberty being a New Yorker, but they still don't like having to look at her backside every day). As a former Bayonne resident, I can remember many trips over the Bayonne Bridge and can confirm that Staten Islanders have more in common with Jersey than New York. Proximity alone puts SI squarely onto Jersey's side (or in its armpit). The shopping malls, the dumps -- vintage Jersey. I know New Yorkers, even on SI, are fiercely loyal, but imagine passing on a chance to become a Son or Daughter of the Garden State! Aren't they tired of pumping their own gas? Sorry if this went a bit off topic; it's a sore subject. (OK, I don't care what happens as long as the Ferry stays).
        
        Subject: Re: The Staten Island Handover!!
        Message Number: 756804
        Posted by: Louie (The original)
        Date: Wed Jul 30 18:43:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: The Staten Island Handover!! posted by Charlie Bonaire on July 30, 1997 at 11:37:02: Just for trivia's sake, did you know the reason that SI is in NY is because NJ lost a stupid boat race 350 years ago!!! I kid you not!!! (and you things are done stupidly these days!)
        
        Subject: Re: The Staten Island Handover!!
        Message Number: 756816
        Posted by: NO HANDOVER
        Date: Thu Jul 31 19:38:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]The Staten Island Handover!! posted by John on July 29, 1997 at 02:25:17: Spot the Dog will buy the busses, and he will personally drive the busiest one down the NJTP to midtown during rush hour.
        
        Subject: Re: The Staten Island Handover!!
        Message Number: 756817
        Posted by: NO COUNTY
        Date: Thu Jul 31 19:40:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: The Staten Island Handover!! posted by David Pirmann on July 29, 1997 at 13:03:23: Or SI would be one city, with NO separate county gov't like the 4 Boroughs.
        
        Subject: Re: The Staten Island Handover!!
        Message Number: 756818
        Posted by: NO VOTE
        Date: Thu Jul 31 19:42:02 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: The Staten Island Handover!! posted by Lou on July 29, 1997 at 18:07:35: SHAME ON YOU!!!!!!!!
        
        Subject: Re: The Staten Island Handover!!
        Message Number: 756819
        Posted by: NO FARE
        Date: Thu Jul 31 19:44:00 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: The Staten Island Handover!! posted by Charlie Bonaire on July 30, 1997 at 11:37:02: Not only must the Freery stay, but it must remain a Freery.
        
        Subject: Re: The Staten Island Handover!!
        Message Number: 757145
        Posted by: Another John
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:57:50 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: The Staten Island Handover!! posted by Charlie Bonaire on July 30, 1997 at 11:37:02: Staten Island cannot join NJ without the consent of Washington and Albany as outlined in the US Consitution. No way Albany will let 500,000 people go.
        
        Subject: Re: The Staten Island Handover!!
        Message Number: 757174
        Posted by: Steve
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:58:13 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]The Staten Island Handover!! posted by John on July 29, 1997 at 02:25:17: During the recent election, Staten Islanders voted on a referendum. That referendum was only to express their will to no longer be part of NYCity. There was nothing in the referendum to indicate that they sought statehood or wished to opt to become part of New Jersey. (at least not to my knowledge) The busses and SIRT are MTA entities. The MTA is a NYState agency. Therefore, if Staten Island were to become an independent city in NY State, I doubt that the transit situation would remain status-quo with one likely change. The busses would likely be called Staten Island Bus OA instead of NYC Transit.

Thread title: Outdated Signs-Part Deux (756792)
Started on Wed Jul 30 07:46:45 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: Outdated Signs-Part Deux
Message Number: 756792
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Jul 30 07:46:45 1997

Today's (7/30) Daily News has an article on incorrect subway station signs. Whoever did the survey could simply have read this bulletin board and saved a good deal of money. Can you imagine if they found the sign for the Second Avenue El? Anyone have a picture of it they can post? NY Daily News is available on-line for those who care.

Thread title: Re: Are there ant R-30's left (read me) (756795)
Started on Wed Jul 30 09:04:47 1997, by charles

Subject: Re: Are there ant R-30's left (read me)
Message Number: 756795
Posted by: charles
Date: Wed Jul 30 09:04:47 1997

In Reply to: [5]Re: Are there ant R-30's left posted by William A. Padron on July 29, 1997 at 13:49:55: I believe that there are, besides the R30's in the museum, There are R30's "floating around" in work service. 8289- 8290 are NY transit police training cars they have a sign on them stating they are not to be stripped.

Thread title: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year (756797)
Started on Wed Jul 30 13:30:14 1997, by Lou

Subject: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year
Message Number: 756797
Posted by: Lou
Date: Wed Jul 30 13:30:14 1997

The past two subway "attacks" that have been highlighted in the local paper have both happen on OPTO Subway trains (One Person Train Operation). Could not having a conductor on the train prevented or if not prevented, help in the investigation of these crimes. In the first murder in the subway system this year, a man was stabbed in the neck, exited the train and fell to the platform. If there had been a conductor on this train, watching the platform as the train left the station instead of a train operator watching the track ahead after he got the signal all the doors were closed could have helped in at least keeping the train (full of possible witness') in the station. Could have call Command immeaditly for assistance?? Will the TA consider these two crimes as they look at OPTO (almost a year in operation on "shuttle" lines) before expanding OPTO to more of the system?? Does anyone feel that OPTO are less safe?? I don't know, Lou
- Subject: Re: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year
- Message Number: 756798
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Wed Jul 30 13:58:03 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year posted by Lou on July 30, 1997 at 13:30:14: There can be no doubt that two pair of eyes are more apt to catch sight of something out of the ordinary than one pair would be likely to.
  - Subject: Re: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year
  - Message Number: 756801
  - Posted by: David Pirmann
  - Date: Wed Jul 30 15:57:03 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year posted by Lou on July 30, 1997 at 13:30:14: Not only did the two attacks this month take place on OPTO trains but they both took place on the Rockaway Shuttle. So without crime figures from the other OPTO operations (Dyre, West End, 42nd St., Franklin, Rockaway Shuttles. None of which are full time AFAIK), I don't think it's necessarily appropriate to say OPTO=Crime. This month, it seems, that Rockaway=Crime. The real question about this murder incident in my mind is that all of the reports say that the man collapsed on the platform, other passengers on the platform shouted for assistance, and the train doors closed and it pulled away. Now, it doesn't matter whether it was just the OPTO motorman or if a conductor was also there. The conductor/motorman still had to be looking out the window at the platform as the doors were being closed and should have seen the commotion regardless of his position on the train. Or has that rule changed? Do OPTO motormen simply use mirrors to see the train from his/her seated position in the cab? *That's* a safety problem more so than OPTO itself... --Dave
    - Subject: Re: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year
    - Message Number: 756807
    - Posted by: Steve
    - Date: Wed Jul 30 23:04:00 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year posted by Lou on July 30, 1997 at 13:30:14: I read that theory being brandished by the TWU, that had their been a conductor, it would have helped in the investigation of both crimes. Question 1) How much faster could the police have solved these crimes. Arrests came less than 2 hours after each one. Question 2) How many crimes do conductors prevent? Would the presence of a conductor saved the victim's life in the 2nd attack? Of course we'll never know. A conductor can only watch one or two cars. Not much comfort if you are in one of the other 6 or 8 cars he can't watch. I don't think OPTO is the issue. What the TA needs is closed circuit TV. Unfortunately, this is something the R-142s and R-143s won't have.
      - Subject: Re: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year
      - Message Number: 756808
      - Posted by: Steve
      - Date: Wed Jul 30 23:04:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year posted by Lou on July 30, 1997 at 13:30:14: I read that theory being brandished by the TWU, that had their been a conductor, it would have helped in the investigation of both crimes. Question 1) How much faster could the police have solved these crimes. Arrests came less than 2 hours after each one. Question 2) How many crimes do conductors prevent? Would the presence of a conductor saved the victim's life in the 2nd attack? Of course we'll never know. A conductor can only watch one or two cars. Not much comfort if you are in one of the other 6 or 8 cars he can't watch. I don't think OPTO is the issue. What the TA needs is closed circuit TV. Unfortunately, this is something the R-142s and R-143s won't have.
        
        Subject: Re: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year
        Message Number: 756810
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Thu Jul 31 00:29:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year posted by David Pirmann on July 30, 1997 at 15:57:03: From the Baltimore perspective, since all MTA rail operations are OPTO, here are the operating regs: Subway: The operator MUST observe the doors/platform before pushing the close button. i.e. operator must stick head out of cab window and look. Light Rail: Cars are equipped with parabolic mirrors that give a clear view of all doors on a 3 car train. Doors must be observed and announcement made before close button is pushed. So far, nobody has been attacked on the Subway (14th year of operation) and there have been a minimun of door incidents on the LR in 5 years of operation.
        
        Subject: Re: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year
        Message Number: 756811
        Posted by: Mark Greenwald
        Date: Thu Jul 31 10:15:53 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year posted by Dan Lawrence on July 31, 1997 at 00:29:40: The same is true in Washington-----the operator HAS to look outside the train to make sure all the doors can be closed safely-----In fact, since his seat is on the right hand side of the car, he can't reach the button for the doors on the left without getting up. I also believe that the same is true for Atlanta---I didn't think to really notice last time I was there.
        
        Subject: Re: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year
        Message Number: 756812
        Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        Date: Thu Jul 31 12:37:49 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year posted by Mark Greenwald on July 31, 1997 at 10:15:53: In Baltimore the operating position is on the left, and all the platforms are island. The only time an operator has to leave the seat is when the train is crossed over to the other track at a platform. (At terminals and the once-in-a-while "wrong railing")
        
        Subject: Re: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year
        Message Number: 756815
        Posted by: FRED WELLMAN
        Date: Thu Jul 31 19:31:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year posted by Steve on July 30, 1997 at 23:04:15: Not living in NYC I have no real feeling about OPTO. WHat I am interested in is what are the locations and dates of the first subway death in the past 10 years?
        
        Subject: Re: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year
        Message Number: 756821
        Posted by: Lou
        Date: Thu Jul 31 22:22:25 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year posted by Steve on July 30, 1997 at 23:04:15: OPTO Trains are 4 cars or less, most are only two. I am all for running less cars late at night BUT KEEP THE CONDUCTOR!!
        
        Subject: Re: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year
        Message Number: 756822
        Posted by: Lou
        Date: Thu Jul 31 22:30:33 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year posted by David Pirmann on July 30, 1997 at 15:57:03: From my experience in observing the Franklin Ave OPTO (about 5 times so far returning from the zoo) 3 times the motorman head was out, looked, head in and the door closed. On the R68(A) can the you see the motorman's indication as you walk across the cab to the seat (2.5 steps)?? 3 times is not a standard though. I haven't seen any OPTO motorman point to the sign board though >G
        
        Subject: Re: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year
        Message Number: 757171
        Posted by: Andrew Byler
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:58:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year posted by Gary Jacobi on July 30, 1997 at 13:58:03: I think all this pontificating on OPTO = deaths of subway riders is ridiculous. I've been out the Rockaways before (both branches), and am quite unimpressed with the quality of the neighborhoods in the immediate vicinity of the entrance of the line to Rockaway peninsula - a real dump IMHO. Its not surprising people get knocked off in this area. People who ride the New York subway, as with people who walk the streets of the city above ground need to be aware that certain neighborhoods are just not the nicest places to hang around in or ride through. Proper precaution is unfortunately necessary for entering these areas, and no amount of MTA personnel is going to completely prevent all crime. While the newsmedia has touted the fall of New York's murders to less than 1000, lets remember that is still nearly three per day, mostly concentrated in a few of the worst slums in the city. OPTO does not seem to cause problems down here in Philly. The Broad St. Subway is OPTO with car-width cabs for left hand side platforms. The Lindenwold line is also OPTO, with left hand side cabs and all island platforms. We don't have particularly more accute problems on these lines than on the Market-Frankford. In Germany and Austria and the Czech Republic, the subways are all OPTO, and are very safe, with no noticed door problems in my riding. In Vancouver, British Columbia, the line is automated with no driver, and I never noticed either a safety problem or a door-person interaction problem. Of course, the difference between these places and New York is that they are pretty much crime free because they don't tens of thousands of low-life criminals romaing around on the streets. So there is no need to worry about crimes like this. The murder on the subway problem is a New York people problem - not an OPTO problem. The solution is to improve the quality of people made or brought into the city and imprison the criminally inclined who are already there (I do not advocate, and that is not an advocation of draconian curtailments of freedom - simply a statement of the obvious). Andy
        
        Subject: Re: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year
        Message Number: 757184
        Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:58:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: OPTO Train = 1st Subway Death This Year posted by David Pirmann on July 30, 1997 at 15:57:03: All of this discussion about the added safety value of having a conductor makes me realize that, unlike the R-1's through R-10's, the conductor no longer has to perch between cars and lean out over the platform to operate the doors. It made for unpleasant duty, but it sure did keep him alert! My question for Dave is, when did the conductor get a cab seat in terms of R models.

Thread title: Subway Lives (756799)
Started on Wed Jul 30 14:12:08 1997, by Gary Jacobi

Subject: Subway Lives
Message Number: 756799
Posted by: Gary Jacobi
Date: Wed Jul 30 14:12:08 1997

I know many of you have mentioned this book, and are obviously aware of it, but I just got a copy from our library, and I feel compelled to recommend it highly. It is NOT your typical Subway book! I almost did not check it out because it was so obviously non-technical. We engineers hate to admit that non technical information can be of any value. WRONG!! Anyone like myself who has been away from NY for 30 years or so MUST read this book to understand what you contemporaries are talking about in terms of the "dark ages" of the late seventies and early eighties. I always held Beame and Koch in low esteem, but now I can back up my opinion with facts.
- Subject: Re: Subway Lives
- Message Number: 756800
- Posted by: aaron
- Date: Wed Jul 30 14:46:57 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Subway Lives posted by Gary Jacobi on July 30, 1997 at 14:12:08: see today's New York Times Metro Section

Thread title: OPTO on the Evanston Express (756802)
Started on Wed Jul 30 16:36:18 1997, by Charles Fiori

Subject: OPTO on the Evanston Express
Message Number: 756802
Posted by: Charles Fiori
Date: Wed Jul 30 16:36:18 1997

Had my first experience with OPTO since riding the Munich U-bahn in 1972. The operator has the end of the car blocked off with a yellow retractable strip which is mounted on the back of the cab. It is threaded through the seatback handle across the aisle and then attached to a clip at the top of the cab's back wall. [Of course, the newer equipment, 1992 vintage, has transverse cabs.] At each island plat, he/she has to walk across to the window, unlock it, then unlock the door controller. For PA he/she uses a telephone handset with a lonnnngggg cord which he/she sets in a cradle on the [opened] cab door. There are some maddening slow spots on the line anyway, along some nice tangent track on fill just south of Loyola, but the little delays for this OPTO business were really annoying. A side problem of all this is the removal of the single seats which were located right at that front window. Ah, Progress!!!!!
- Subject: Re: OPTO on the Evanston Express
- Message Number: 756813
- Posted by: Mark S Feinman
- Date: Thu Jul 31 13:09:59 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]OPTO on the Evanston Express posted by Charles Fiori on July 30, 1997 at 16:36:18: Yes, OPTO and the famed-railfan seat do not mix at all on CTA. SOme of the other lines that are not yet OPTO are going to be converted to OPTO, though I forget which ones. Ravenswood, Midway and Evanston Express are all OPTO now; I forget if the Green Line is. --Mark
  - Subject: Re: OPTO on the Evanston Express
  - Message Number: 756814
  - Posted by: aaron
  - Date: Thu Jul 31 13:20:50 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]OPTO on the Evanston Express posted by Charles Fiori on July 30, 1997 at 16:36:18: Wait until the Red Line goes OPTO, just about all of the station platforms are on the opposite side of the cab. This might be the dumbest thing the CTA has ever done...
    - Subject: Re: OPTO on the Evanston Express
    - Message Number: 756820
    - Posted by: Brian
    - Date: Thu Jul 31 21:44:24 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: OPTO on the Evanston Express posted by Mark S Feinman on July 31, 1997 at 13:09:59: Mark, All the CTA Lines are one man operation, except the two Subway lines, the Red and Blue. OPTO means one man operation ( loosely ), Correct??? Also: Are the subways in NYC Converted to one man operation yet? It is very stupid that the CTA did this, you are correct. They just want to save money, which is wrong becasue they had the green line renovated recently when they were in debt and the government gave them the money for that!!!!! They ever have the motor man announce the stations on some of the lines! They need to get recordings for all the lines including the ones that have no announcements
      - Subject: Re: OPTO on the Evanston Express
      - Message Number: 757193
      - Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      - Date: Mon Aug 25 19:58:28 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: OPTO on the Evanston Express posted by Brian on July 31, 1997 at 21:44:24: OPTO = One Person Train Operation In NYC, most subway lines are NOT OPTO. The Times Square - Grand Central shuttle, the Dyre Ave line and the B shuttle, late nights, between Coney Island and 36th Street, are OPTO, as is the Franklin Avenue shuttle. The MTA is studying the feasibility of converting some of the small cab cars (the R-42, I think) to "full length cabs" similar to what was done in Chicago. I don't know the status of this study, nor am I familiar with what the eventual schedule of OPTO conversion will be, and even if there is a schedule. During my week in Chicago, I did indeed see the train operators announcing station stops, and for the most part, I had difficulty understanding them. I guess the mumble-de-gook is not so unique to NYC after all. Did all those cuts that CTA wanted ever go through ( I saw posters in stations and the trains indicating that some owl service on the L was to be discintinued and there were loads of bus changes )? --Mark
        
        Subject: Re: OPTO on the Evanston Express
        Message Number: 757219
        Posted by: Brian
        Date: Mon Aug 25 19:58:48 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: OPTO on the Evanston Express posted by Mark S Feinman on August 05, 1997 at 12:36:15: Yes, Some Changes on the CTA were made. 10 bus routes were cut and they had planned on more. They would have cut over night service on all El lines except the red and blue between Ohare and Forest Park. They were even thinking of canelling all service on the Douglas branch of the Blue Line on the Week-end. 800 people showed up at a protest meeting and none of the changes above, except for the 10 bus routes were made. I think there is no need for over night service on any of the El's or busses. Ridership is so low at night, why even continue night owl service? All it does is increse crime and waste money. They would have enough money to bring back those ten bus routes. I don't know how far they are from being out of debt, but they are getting alot closer. My question to you was, are they going to convert to OPTO on the NCY Subway? What I mean is all of the lines. Or are they just going to on the ones you mentioned. If you ever need anything about the CTA or the City of Chicago E-mail me: Bj633@aol.com and please respond asap

Thread title: A Question on the Budget (756803)
Started on Wed Jul 30 18:36:42 1997, by Worried

Subject: A Question on the Budget
Message Number: 756803
Posted by: Worried
Date: Wed Jul 30 18:36:42 1997

Does anyone out there know if Amtrak got that 1/2 cent from the Gas Tax in the Federal Budget??? I know that McCain (of the Senate) wanted it.
- Subject: Re: A Question on the Budget
- Message Number: 756805
- Posted by: Gary Jacobi
- Date: Wed Jul 30 19:45:53 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]A Question on the Budget posted by Worried on July 30, 1997 at 18:36:42: Direct word from OST two hours ago.... Amtrak funding still unspecified.
  - Subject: Re: A Question on the Budget
  - Message Number: 756806
  - Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  - Date: Wed Jul 30 19:55:07 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]A Question on the Budget posted by Worried on July 30, 1997 at 18:36:42: I went back and reread what I received, and should clarify; Amtrak funding not decided, but 1/2% from trust fund is OUT !
    - Subject: Re: A Question on the Budget
    - Message Number: 757173
    - Posted by: Joe M
    - Date: Mon Aug 25 19:58:12 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: A Question on the Budget posted by Gary Jacobi on July 30, 1997 at 19:55:07: They think Congress has another way of funding AMTRAK without using our transit money What I heard was interesting but I am not sure I understand enough about it to explain it. It should be an interesting few weeks

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