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Thread title: Colour scheme (755206)
Started on Sun Jun 1 02:12:53 1997, by Nathan

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• Subject: Colour scheme
• Message Number: 755206
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Sun Jun 1 02:12:53 1997
  
  Is the TA looking at any new colour schemes for future R-42 etc?? I found the old R-32 (?) scheme with the silver body and the dark blue doors pretty neat.
  

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  • Subject: Re: Colour scheme
  • Message Number: 755211
  • Posted by: Steve
  • Date: Sun Jun 1 09:40:20 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Colour scheme posted by Nathan on June 01, 1997 at 02:12:53: I agree that the R-32s looked better with the blue doors. I also think the R33/36 worlds fair cars were the best looking on the system. However, graffiti vandals have screwed that up too. Paint does not do to well it the TA car washes. The cleanser used is acid based, used partially because of the graffiti.
    

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    • Subject: Re: Colour scheme
    • Message Number: 755221
    • Posted by: Quigebo
    • Date: Sun Jun 1 13:36:32 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Colour scheme posted by Nathan on June 01, 1997 at 02:12:53: They had a mockup of the R142 at TA headquarters in Brooklyn. The exterior is stainless steel with the top half of the front painted red (looked similar to the red used on the Redbirds). I asked a TA employee about that red. He said the red would be used no matter what line the 142s run on like it is now. But I also saw an artist's rendering of the 142 and it had a black front top half. Guess we'll have to wait and see what the TA decides on.
      

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Thread title: Toronto subway/signals (755208)
Started on Sun Jun 1 02:51:43 1997, by Brian

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• Subject: Toronto subway/signals
• Message Number: 755208
• Posted by: Brian
• Date: Sun Jun 1 02:51:43 1997
  
  On the Toronto subway, many of the signals display two colours, one on top of the other. The one on top is refered to as the "blocking signal", and indicates if the next block is occupied. The one on the bottom is called the "route signal". I have no idea what this indicates, however. Can anyone help me out?
  

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  • Subject: Re: Toronto subway/signals
  • Message Number: 755241
  • Posted by: Nathan
  • Date: Mon Jun 2 00:16:04 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Toronto subway/signals posted by Brian on June 01, 1997 at 02:51:43: You said "some signs", on which lines did the "route signal" appear on? If they are only present on the original part of the Bloor Danforth(keele to woodbine) and the yonge/university subway, it could be from the days of integrated operation, with every 2nd bloor train going down the university subway. (which only lasted 6 months) but if the signs are located on the later constructed Spadina subway on the YUS, I have no clue as to what they are for. 3 other questions, though: 1)Is the Bloor-Danforth line bored tunnel or cut and cover? 2)When the Shepperd line goes into service, will there be integrated operations with the Y-U-S? 3)Any word on whether the (proposed)Eglinton Subway or any of the other "Rapid Transit Extension Program" lines will be constructed in the near future? Thanx!
    

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    • Subject: Re: Toronto subway/signals
    • Message Number: 755340
    • Posted by: Brian
    • Date: Wed Jun 4 01:01:37 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Toronto subway/signals posted by Nathan on June 02, 1997 at 00:16:04: 1) The Bloor-Danforth line is actually both cut-and-cover and bored tunnel. The easiest way to tell which section is which is to actually ride the subway and look at the shape of the tunnel. If it is box-shaped, as most of the line is, then it is cut-and-cover. But if the tunnel is circular, like the section from Yonge to Sherbourne as well as other sections, then it is bored tunnel. 2) When the Sheppard line goes into service, there probably won't be integrated operations with the Y-U-S since this would create delays at a point on the line where there are already too many (it is near Finch, which is the end of the line). 3) Of all the great improvements proposed by the TTC, the one that has the greatest chance of being built in the near future is the Eglinton West subway. This will probably only start once the Sheppard line and the Spadina LRT are completed.
      

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Thread title: LIRR Bay Ridge - Canarsie Switch (755209)
Started on Sun Jun 1 07:57:50 1997, by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto

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• Subject: LIRR Bay Ridge - Canarsie Switch
• Message Number: 755209
• Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
• Date: Sun Jun 1 07:57:50 1997
  
  Has this (relatively NEW) switch really been removed!? How will the new IRT cars get onto the IRT? I assumed... BTW, anyone know of developments re: the A&P purchase of the LIRR freight division? Haven't found a website of theirs... BTW2, does anyone, for Pete's sake, have track maps (old/historical or current)of the various Bay Ridge yards (at the waterfront and between 5-8th Aves.) and of the Bay Ridge Div. in general?! BTW3, a gripe: I noticed that non-fluff issues don't seem to attract much interest lately. Now --- if I were to bring up the subject of the last color the R-17s were painted...
  

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  • Subject: Re: LIRR Bay Ridge - Canarsie Switch
  • Message Number: 755225
  • Posted by: FRED WELLMAN
  • Date: Sun Jun 1 14:56:01 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]LIRR Bay Ridge - Canarsie Switch posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on June 01, 1997 at 07:57:50: Regarding comment 3 I read all of the post's and really enjoy the unusual type questions. I have never been in NYC La Gauardia, spelling?, and Penn Station on Amtrak>. I still have a interest in subway's and find all post's interesting. I don't reply since I have no answers. I suspect alot of people just read. Please don't stop.
    

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    • Subject: Re: LIRR Bay Ridge - Canarsie Switch
    • Message Number: 755226
    • Posted by: David Pirmann
    • Date: Sun Jun 1 15:10:05 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]LIRR Bay Ridge - Canarsie Switch posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on June 01, 1997 at 07:57:50: Re Point 3-- everyone has an opinion but not everyone has an answer. So you might not get a response to a very technical question but ask about favorite paint schemes and everyone can contribute. It's human nature. --Dave
      

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      • Subject: Re: LIRR Bay Ridge - Canarsie Switch
      • Message Number: 755228
      • Posted by: Peter Rosa
      • Date: Sun Jun 1 19:12:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]LIRR Bay Ridge - Canarsie Switch posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on June 01, 1997 at 07:57:50: I rode the L out to Canarsie in April and got a look at the switch. It has indeed been removed, at least the portion coming off the subway line and leading to the gate. Presumably, new rolling stock will be delivered via NY Cross Harbor Railroad carfloat.
        

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        • Subject: Re: LIRR Bay Ridge - Canarsie Switch
        • Message Number: 755242
        • Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
        • Date: Mon Jun 2 03:18:19 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR Bay Ridge - Canarsie Switch posted by Peter Rosa on June 01, 1997 at 19:12:44: Thanks for the info Pete -- but re: getting to the IRT -- I assumed carfloat all along, but the Canarsie switch was ideal to get them to IRT teritiry -- now that they removed the switch (what's the matter with them anyway, can't they make a deal with A&P the new LIRR Freight owners to keep this useful avenue open?!) -- how will they get from Bush or BAT floats to the IRT easily???
          

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          • Subject: Re: LIRR Bay Ridge - Canarsie Switch
          • Message Number: 755246
          • Posted by: Peter Rosa
          • Date: Mon Jun 2 12:48:17 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR Bay Ridge - Canarsie Switch posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on June 02, 1997 at 03:18:19: The carfloat dock connects to the Coney Island yard via the B line. All new subway cars, including those on the IRT lines, are delivered to Coney Island to be prepared for service. While the IRT lines are generally separate from the rest of the system, they do have connections for maintenance purposes. These are located at the 207th Street yard in Manhattan and the Concourse/Jerome yards in the Bronx. The 7 line connects with the N via a switch at Queensboro Plaza. N.B. - the former Bay Ridge - Canarsie switch connected the LIRR to the BMT, not the IRT.
            

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            • Subject: Re: LIRR Bay Ridge - Canarsie Switch
            • Message Number: 755273
            • Posted by: Lou
            • Date: Mon Jun 2 21:05:25 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]LIRR Bay Ridge - Canarsie Switch posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on June 01, 1997 at 07:57:50: Weekend before last sat at the Great Divide waiting for A&P to clear a West bound movement. Couldn't catch the the engine (hey it was those can't see nothing out the window Port Jeff cars) but was at least 15 car lenght train with EOT device (not caboose). There is some yard work going on at the Sunnyside (Jackson Ave) yard. I work at Queens Plaza but haven't the chance to walk down to the yard since the circus left.
              

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              • Subject: Re: LIRR Bay Ridge - Canarsie Switch
              • Message Number: 755343
              • Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
              • Date: Wed Jun 4 03:10:28 1997
                
                In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR Bay Ridge - Canarsie Switch posted by Peter Rosa on June 02, 1997 at 12:48:17: Pete, the switch connected to the Canarsie line right near another switch from the Canarsie Line to a lead track from the adjacent IRT New Lots Line, to the Livonia Yard -- that was the beauty of the thing. If what you say is true about the IRT cars being prep'd at Coney (any comment **Steve "Grover"**?) then anyone have an idea about what the LIRR-Canarsie switch WAS in fact used for???
                

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Thread title: LIRR Signals (755214)
Started on Sun Jun 1 09:51:37 1997, by Steve

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• Subject: LIRR Signals
• Message Number: 755214
• Posted by: Steve
• Date: Sun Jun 1 09:51:37 1997
  
  Does anyone have info on the LIRR signal system. I'm looking for the Aspects, Indications and the definitions for both the Position and Color signals. I'd be especially interested in scans of the pages out of the book of rules.
  

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  • Subject: Re: LIRR Signals
  • Message Number: 755247
  • Posted by: Charles Fiori
  • Date: Mon Jun 2 13:20:53 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]LIRR Signals posted by Steve on June 01, 1997 at 09:51:37: Can poss. help if I can locate my old (early '80's) copy of the LIRR employee timetable< etc. Send your addr. & I'll see what I come up with.
    

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    • Subject: Re: LIRR Signals
    • Message Number: 755280
    • Posted by: Steve
    • Date: Mon Jun 2 22:42:38 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR Signals posted by Charles Fiori on June 02, 1997 at 13:20:53: I would greatly appreciate the information but you left me no way to contact you. If you give me your E-Mail address, I'd appreciate it. I have a copy of the LIRR rule book from 1925 and they have no signal info in there.
      

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      • Subject: Re: LIRR Signals
      • Message Number: 755285
      • Posted by: Charles Fiori
      • Date: Tue Jun 3 07:44:59 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: LIRR Signals posted by Steve on June 02, 1997 at 22:42:38: I'll check to see if I have the material first. If you live in the NY area, check out any of the rail memorabilia shows where these rule books/timetables are readily available. Stay tuned.
        

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Thread title: NYC Subway Maps (755217)
Started on Sun Jun 1 12:54:55 1997, by Keranu

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• Subject: NYC Subway Maps
• Message Number: 755217
• Posted by: Keranu
• Date: Sun Jun 1 12:54:55 1997
  
  OK, I have some questions about the MAP. How come the NR Bdwy trains still have express and local symbols on the yellow line through Manhattan? How often are maps updated? Do the map makers include dotted lines to represent subway lines which are under construction or about to be put back in service like they do in London? What about the Queensbridge link thing? Alternatively, could dotted lines not be usedc to further clarify peak only lines where a certain train only serves a certain section of line at rush hours such as the M train in Bklyn which could be dotted brown or the C train in the Bronx (dotted blue). Why did they change the station symbols for local stops from neat rectangles to those awkward blob things. Why do they put a square around the small black route no. beside the station to show where trains terminate when there is always also a huge square with the no/letter of terminating train in it? Did any past maps have a simpler version of that mess of subway routes through Downtown Brooklyn. It made my head spin first time I loaded it up on the computer screen. Why do the nos. 2 and 3 lines still have express symbols in Brooklyn when they stop at every stop and are really local. Surely people know that some trains change between local and express along their routes and the route table shows that 2 and 3 trains are LOCAL in Bklyn. Doesn't it make more sense to show the red 2,3 lines with those jutting out bars and then show black hollow circles where 2,3 AND 4 trains stop? With peak direction trains in the Bronx, would it not make more sense to make all stops as jutting out bars (local stops) except the ones that expresses stop at which would be circles. This is less complicated than drawing a line around the stations. For example, all stops north of Parkchester, Parkchester itself, Hunts Point Av and 3 Av on the #6 line would have circles, the rest would have jutting out bars. If you managed to make it to the end of this message you deserve a LARGE AWARD. If you can answer any of these questions you should have an all expenses paid trip to Barbados (it's not coming from me though.)
  

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  • Subject: Re: NYC Subway Maps
  • Message Number: 755224
  • Posted by: Ted Nielsen
  • Date: Sun Jun 1 14:42:59 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]NYC Subway Maps posted by Keranu on June 01, 1997 at 12:54:55: Keranu , The maps are usually updated every 3-4 months , I'll try to answer some of your questions : On the map I have ( May 1996 ) , the NR Bdwy trains only have local symbols on the yellow line. When repairs are finished on the Manhattan Bridge , express service may be restored ( with N trains crossing the bridge and taking the express tracks up Bdwy ). Dotted lines usually indicate a connecting bus route ( if you look closely at the dotted lines , you will see a bus no. , in the Bronx for example the BX55 bus connects with the 3th Ave. station of the 2,5 trains ). The only construction that I'm aware of is the Queensbridge-Queensboro Plaza connection on the B,Q line ( I'm not sure about the current status of the project ). There is a proposal for building an extension of the N Line from Ditmars Blvd. to La Guardia Airport , but , I don't think it will built in the near future. By the way , as of July 4 , there will be free tranfers between trains and buses if you use the new Gold Metro Card ( you must make the transfer within 2 hours of your start time ). On the map I have ( I'm curious which map you have , yours may be more current than mine ) , the 2,3 trains are depicted as local trains ( as far as I know they were always local in Brooklyn , express in Manhattan ). I'll take that trip to Barbados now !
    

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    • Subject: Re: NYC Subway Maps
    • Message Number: 755250
    • Posted by: Keranu
    • Date: Mon Jun 2 13:57:48 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway Maps posted by Ted Nielsen on June 01, 1997 at 14:42:59: Cone back from Barbados!! One reply. When I said 2,3 trains in Bklyn were express, I know they are local but on the MAP the local stops for the 2,3 are shown as semi-circles on the Bklyn line which, according to the key, means express. I am referring to stops like Bergen St, Grand Army Plaza and Eastern Pkwy.
      

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      • Subject: Re: NYC Subway Maps
      • Message Number: 755260
      • Posted by: John
      • Date: Mon Jun 2 17:16:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Subway Maps posted by Keranu on June 02, 1997 at 13:57:48: Let us not overlook The Bronx. Look at the number 2 line in the Bronx - those stops are shown as express stops, too, even though a trip from the South Bronx to Wakefield takes about as long as it does to swim to Barbados. The number 5, which shares the same line as the 2, operates express service between E. 180 and 3rd Avenue only during the rush hour. Maybe as long as there is an express portion of a line somewhere along it, the whole line is considered to be express. This is kind of like the old single-letter designation for express lines (even if they skipped only a few stops and the rest of the line was like a milk train).
        

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        • Subject: Re: NYC Subway Maps
        • Message Number: 755301
        • Posted by: Keranu
        • Date: Tue Jun 3 16:53:02 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway Maps posted by John on June 02, 1997 at 17:16:23: Hey, I'll take the swim to Barbados! Where is Wakefield? I don't live in NYC, is it near Nereid Av?
          

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          • Subject: Re: NYC Subway Maps
          • Message Number: 755306
          • Posted by: John
          • Date: Tue Jun 3 17:06:32 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Subway Maps posted by Keranu on June 03, 1997 at 16:53:02: Yep. It's the next stop up, in fact. Don't let the sharks get you, though!
            

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Thread title: Subway service diversions (755219)
Started on Sun Jun 1 13:20:48 1997, by Keranu

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• Subject: Subway service diversions
• Message Number: 755219
• Posted by: Keranu
• Date: Sun Jun 1 13:20:48 1997
  
  When you are waiting at your platform for your train to arrive, do they announce that your train will be running express or whatever or do they leave it up to you to look at the red signs? Also, I heard about alarm things which tell you when a train is going to arrive. Where are they? I think I heard a very quiet beeping sound just before a train arrived at Lawrence St, Bklyn (N,R) Station. Is this the alarm?
  

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  • Subject: Re: Subway service diversions
  • Message Number: 755229
  • Posted by: Peter Rosa
  • Date: Sun Jun 1 19:17:32 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Subway service diversions posted by Keranu on June 01, 1997 at 13:20:48: If a train is going to be heading through a station without stopping, the PA system *should* announce that fact. Trouble is, the PA systems at many stations are inaudible. A more relible indicator is the train itself - a train that's going through a station next to a platform without stopping has to blow its horn as a warning.
    

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    • Subject: Re: Subway service diversions
    • Message Number: 755254
    • Posted by: Quigebo
    • Date: Mon Jun 2 16:31:01 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Subway service diversions posted by Keranu on June 01, 1997 at 13:20:48: The beeping sound lets you know that the train is coming. Not all stations have it, though.
      

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      • Subject: Re: Subway service diversions
      • Message Number: 755272
      • Posted by: Lou
      • Date: Mon Jun 2 20:57:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Subway service diversions posted by Peter Rosa on June 01, 1997 at 19:17:32: Most of the time it is the train operator leaning on the horn that tells me that the train is not stopping at the station. At large junctions with towers they make announcements but not out on the system IMHO.
        

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Thread title: staten island transit photos (755227)
Started on Sun Jun 1 17:01:14 1997, by Frank Vargas

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• Subject: staten island transit photos
• Message Number: 755227
• Posted by: Frank Vargas
• Date: Sun Jun 1 17:01:14 1997
  
  looking for any old photos on old steam/electric 1900-1970 pics on any route or fan trip on staten island ,and if anyone has any pics on sirt cars on the culver line in brooklyn .thay where renumered #2900-2924. one was found in the coney island yard ,used as a suppley office. only three remain around #353 in staten island in very bad shape ( the same car used in photo for the staten island ferry book ),388 at shore line trolley museum very good shape( thanks goes to bill wall ) ,366 in kennebunk maine seashore trolley museum awaiting resotoreration . thank you in advance
  

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Thread title: How Do They Do It (755230)
Started on Sun Jun 1 21:36:38 1997, by Zack

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• Subject: How Do They Do It
• Message Number: 755230
• Posted by: Zack
• Date: Sun Jun 1 21:36:38 1997
  
  after reading colour scheme i was wondering how do the vandals get to the cars to vandilize without gerring caught? and why dont the ta put concete fenses around it's bases?
  

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  • Subject: Re: How Do They Do It
  • Message Number: 755235
  • Posted by: Peter Rosa
  • Date: Sun Jun 1 23:41:28 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]How Do They Do It posted by Zack on June 01, 1997 at 21:36:38: Most of the vandalism on subway cars today (especially window scratching) presumably occurs when the trains are in service. The fences around the yards are a quite a sight; they look, no exaggeration, like the fences around prisons.
    

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    • Subject: Re: How Do They Do It
    • Message Number: 755238
    • Posted by: Nathan
    • Date: Mon Jun 2 00:07:30 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: How Do They Do It posted by Peter Rosa on June 01, 1997 at 23:41:28: What is the TA's policy on "busted" vandals? And with the window scratching, how about exposed electrical wires which zap any vandal, or why not go all the way and have guns mounted above each window... *Laughs*
      

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      • Subject: Re: How Do They Do It
      • Message Number: 755244
      • Posted by: Steve
      • Date: Mon Jun 2 10:05:56 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: How Do They Do It posted by Nathan on June 02, 1997 at 00:07:30: To the best of my knowledge, the TA has no pity for vandals. Many are given the opportunity to work off their offenses in the WARP (Work Alternative Restitution Program - I think). They clean facilities or trains for eight hours at a time. I don't know how effective it is with repeat offenders. I, personally think that those that are caught, should be used for bumper blocks.
        

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        • Subject: Re: How Do They Do It
        • Message Number: 755253
        • Posted by: Bryan Layne
        • Date: Mon Jun 2 16:24:12 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]How Do They Do It posted by Zack on June 01, 1997 at 21:36:38: Back in the low tide days(late 70's,early 80's),when the graffiti sprayers used to spray trains all thay had to do was take a pair of wire cutters and cut through the fences to get into the yards.Today,this is quit different,the fences around the yards look like prison fences and sere a purpose much to that seriousness.Also,did you know at one time,graffiti writers would steal subway car master keys and copy them and sell them to other writers.So now they could not only get into the yards to spraypaint but they could get on the inside of the cars to "bomb" them as well.When they would go out on these "night bombing" adventures they used sneeky techniques almost military like.Many would also know secret routes and even underground sewer routes and they knew were the manhole covers were and were they got out etc. to escape from the boys in blue or TA officials.The writers bragged about there recent and not so recent brushes with the law and this set this tone of danger and adrenaline with spraypainting the trains,which in turn intrigued younger adventurous teens to start spraying as well.It was a constant race to be "up" on a line,meaning that there graffiti pieces often appeared on the line.The most popular line to be "up" on was the #5,and even today is the most sought after line to get your graffiti piece on to writers all over the world.Writers dont "hit" the system that often anymore...1)because many of the cars are now stainless steel or have ridges unsuitable for spraypaint 2)the security has gottin so tight that sprayers simpley cant or are afraid of getting caught,or 3)simpley the heyday of spraying the N.Y. subway is over and has lost alot of its allure and newness.
          

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          • Subject: Re: How Do They Do It
          • Message Number: 755258
          • Posted by: John
          • Date: Mon Jun 2 17:07:24 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: How Do They Do It posted by Bryan Layne on June 02, 1997 at 16:24:12: It's amazing the lengths people would go just to make their signature on a subway train, don't you think?
            

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            • Subject: Re: How Do They Do It
            • Message Number: 755283
            • Posted by: S.A.D.
            • Date: Tue Jun 3 00:23:12 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: How Do They Do It posted by Steve on June 02, 1997 at 10:05:56: The WARP program gives artists a clean slate to work on. (ie. a freshly buffed train to work thier masterpiece!) Don't knock it until you've tried it, or in this case, sprayed it. *s*
              

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              • Subject: Re: How Do They Do It
              • Message Number: 755284
              • Posted by: Nathan
              • Date: Tue Jun 3 01:21:14 1997
                
                In Reply to: [6]Re: How Do They Do It posted by S.A.D. on June 03, 1997 at 00:23:12: Hmm, well, maybe the "WARP" program should be modified, perhaps vandals not only have to work off their "art", but perhaps be forced to pay for their cleaning untensils. Finally, Steve, bumper blocks is a cruel, unhumane treatment of vandals. BE More SENSITIVE!! I was thinking a good punishment would be "Human Couplers", tie the offender's feet to the rear of one car and his head to the front of the next car... Or even better, replace the 3rd rail power collection shoes with vandals. ZAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPP!!!!! :)
                

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                • Subject: Re: How Do They Do It
                • Message Number: 755298
                • Posted by: Keranu
                • Date: Tue Jun 3 16:32:35 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [6]Re: How Do They Do It posted by S.A.D. on June 03, 1997 at 00:23:12: Although I think vandalism is wrong, I think graffitti is really art, (especially some of those great murals). I don't do graffitti myself (totally useless at it), I reckon they give each train an identity and something to look at. All silver-coloured trains are quite boring. Hey, don't over do it though!
                  

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                  • Subject: Re: How Do They Do It
                  • Message Number: 755311
                  • Posted by: Quigebo
                  • Date: Tue Jun 3 17:29:47 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [5]Re: How Do They Do It posted by Keranu on June 03, 1997 at 16:32:35: Graffiti is vandalism, period! They gave the trains, the tunnels, and the stations a very shabby (and in some cases, menacing) look. I don't know, I like the silver trains - after growing up with graffiti, I think stainless steel is a welcome change. Still, it would be great if our subway cars looked liked London's.
                    

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                    • Subject: Re: How Do They Do It
                    • Message Number: 755333
                    • Posted by: Steve
                    • Date: Tue Jun 3 23:39:49 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [6]Re: How Do They Do It posted by Keranu on June 03, 1997 at 16:32:35: I wish you lived closer. I could bring a band of graffiti artists to your parents home and they could express their artistic side on the outside of your house. Oddly enough, I doubt that you'd be so liberal if you were picking up the tab for the damage these miscreants do. Let me know if you feel the same way when you start paying taxes.......
                      

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                      • Subject: Re: How Do They Do It
                      • Message Number: 755335
                      • Posted by: Steve
                      • Date: Tue Jun 3 23:43:08 1997
                        
                        In Reply to: [5]Re: How Do They Do It posted by Nathan on June 03, 1997 at 01:21:14: HAHAHAHAHA - Thanks for the suggestions. Maybe I'll give it a try.
                        

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Thread title: WINNERS OF THE CHICAGO RAIL FAN QUIZ.COM (755233)
Started on Sun Jun 1 21:46:44 1997, by Brian Jakosz

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• Subject: WINNERS OF THE CHICAGO RAIL FAN QUIZ.COM
• Message Number: 755233
• Posted by: Brian Jakosz
• Date: Sun Jun 1 21:46:44 1997
  
  Dave came in Second and got info on the Brown Ravesnwood line Next time more people need to participate. JERKS!1
  

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  • Subject: Re: WINNERS OF THE CHICAGO RAIL FAN QUIZ.COM
  • Message Number: 755358
  • Posted by: Rj
  • Date: Wed Jun 4 16:43:06 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]WINNERS OF THE CHICAGO RAIL FAN QUIZ.COM posted by Brian Jakosz on June 01, 1997 at 21:46:44: the winner is Bryan, not Dave, Sorry Bryan
    

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Thread title: Sudden Local (755234)
Started on Sun Jun 1 23:06:46 1997, by John

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• Subject: Sudden Local
• Message Number: 755234
• Posted by: John
• Date: Sun Jun 1 23:06:46 1997
  
  I was taking the B train from Bay Parkway to W. 4th Street today, and the train came in to the 36th Street station on the local track and made local stops (including DeKalb Av.). This has also happened a couple times in the past. There were no notices or anything. It was like a spontaneous occurance. Why did this happen?
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: Sudden Local
  • Message Number: 755237
  • Posted by: Steve
  • Date: Sun Jun 1 23:55:05 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Sudden Local posted by John on June 01, 1997 at 23:06:46: That can happen for many reasons.Some of the more common ones are: 1) A gap in R service. 2) A stalled train on the express track. 3) The express track being taken out of service for repair.
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: Sudden Local
    • Message Number: 755251
    • Posted by: Keranu
    • Date: Mon Jun 2 14:10:54 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Sudden Local posted by Steve on June 01, 1997 at 23:55:05: Actually, if you get your hands on a B train timetable (major feat!), the table shows frequencies and also lists of some trains. In the key, it says that trains with an asterisk will call at all stops between Pacific and 36 and also stop at DeKalb. These trains usually run in the evening, there are only a few daily.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: Sudden Local
      • Message Number: 755257
      • Posted by: John
      • Date: Mon Jun 2 17:02:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Sudden Local posted by Keranu on June 02, 1997 at 14:10:54: I probably was on one of those trains (this happened around 8:30 - 9:00 Sunday night).
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: Sudden Local
        • Message Number: 755271
        • Posted by: Lou
        • Date: Mon Jun 2 20:53:13 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: Sudden Local posted by John on June 02, 1997 at 17:02:24: Just to add, the signs at DeKalb are set up to announce the arrival of B trains too. The route selector at Metro Tech/Lawerence Street also has buttons for all trains stopping at Dekalb in case they are routed through the tunnel.
          

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Thread title: "R" designations (755249)
Started on Mon Jun 2 13:38:19 1997, by Charles Fiori

---

• Subject: "R" designations
• Message Number: 755249
• Posted by: Charles Fiori
• Date: Mon Jun 2 13:38:19 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: What are R142s?! posted by Keranu on June 01, 1997 at 13:06:49: The 'R' designation refers to a TA contract that is rolling stock-related. Related is a key word, because, if memory serves me correctly, the first contract for destination signs which included the 1979-type color scheme as well as single letters, was designated R-63, short for contract #R-31463. Non-revenue equipment such as flat cars, signal dollys, etc. that are purchased get R numbers, too. There are lists around covering all the R's. I believe my old colleague Joe Korman, at his JoeKorNer, has a listing of the contracts. Good Luck.
  

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Thread title: New R-142 prototype design (755255)
Started on Mon Jun 2 16:36:21 1997, by Bryan Layne

---

• Subject: New R-142 prototype design
• Message Number: 755255
• Posted by: Bryan Layne
• Date: Mon Jun 2 16:36:21 1997
  
  There is a picture of a computer aided prototype design for the R-142 done for the TA at www.nethomes.com/cityrail/ its is on the New Elecric Railway Journal website.
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: New R-142 prototype design
  • Message Number: 755256
  • Posted by: John
  • Date: Mon Jun 2 17:00:20 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]New R-142 prototype design posted by Bryan Layne on June 02, 1997 at 16:36:21: The R-142 should have a return to more traditional designs. For example, I would like to see them fitted with the drop-sash windows, hand straps, bench seating, and narrow cabs. A good interior design for the walls could be the material that is now in the R-110, but with a grayish hue (the walls being a kind of speckled gray and the benches being gray). The windows on the doors should also be like the original no-frame (or rubber frame), rather than the steel frame. P.S. - The side and front sides should also be like the traditional design, but being Luminator signs rather than mechanical.
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: New R-142 prototype design
    • Message Number: 755270
    • Posted by: Lou
    • Date: Mon Jun 2 20:50:01 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: New R-142 prototype design posted by John on June 02, 1997 at 17:00:20: Agree with drop down windows. Sat for 1/2 hour with pulled power for a track fire on a R68. They wouldn't unlock end doors for saftey reasons and those little tilt in's did not get enough air in.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: New R-142 prototype design
      • Message Number: 755324
      • Posted by: M.J.S.
      • Date: Tue Jun 3 22:45:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: New R-142 prototype design posted by Lou on June 02, 1997 at 20:50:01: That won't be neccesary, R142s will be equipped with batteries to pull the train in to the next station. I don't agree with any of John's ideas, except that I don't care about whether it's narrow/transverse cab, although I know transverse cabs are better than closets for the staff, and I don't mind the window frame, or the sign design.
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: New R-142 prototype design
        • Message Number: 755369
        • Posted by: James A.
        • Date: Wed Jun 4 23:35:28 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]New R-142 prototype design posted by Bryan Layne on June 02, 1997 at 16:36:21: Looks good, Like a cross between an r62 and the r110a. I like the large route signs of the r62 rather than the little colored LCDs of the r110a. You could see those large signs a mile away rather than have to guess ( On a unrelated note,Does anyone else hate those #@!$# little flip dot signs on the head-end of the r32s and 38s.) BTW, does anyone have any more pictures of the new trains? I would like to know if anyone has an interior shot of it or engineering diagrams if possible.
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: New R-142 prototype design
          • Message Number: 755373
          • Posted by: Nathan
          • Date: Thu Jun 5 01:53:49 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: New R-142 prototype design posted by James A. on June 04, 1997 at 23:35:28: I have some diagrams, tech info etc on the r-110s that I managed to get from Bombardier, if that is any help...
            

            ---

            • Subject: Re: New R-142 prototype design
            • Message Number: 755409
            • Posted by: Lou
            • Date: Fri Jun 6 19:37:07 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: New R-142 prototype design posted by M.J.S. on June 03, 1997 at 22:45:40: Nice idea with the batteries but the fire was in the station so I am still suffering with power out unless the batteries will power the hotel items?
              

              ---

              • Subject: Re: New R-142 prototype design
              • Message Number: 755426
              • Posted by: M.J.S.
              • Date: Sat Jun 7 13:19:42 1997
                
                In Reply to: [6]Re: New R-142 prototype design posted by Lou on June 06, 1997 at 19:37:07: The train would reverse into the previous station if the next was unavailable.
                

                ---

                • Subject: Re: New R-142 prototype design
                • Message Number: 755483
                • Posted by: Nathan
                • Date: Sun Jun 8 21:09:39 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [5]Re: New R-142 prototype design posted by M.J.S. on June 07, 1997 at 13:19:42: Would the power be sufficient?
                  

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Thread title: The Original (755265)
Started on Mon Jun 2 17:33:44 1997, by John

---

• Subject: The Original
• Message Number: 755265
• Posted by: John
• Date: Mon Jun 2 17:33:44 1997
  
  The R-62s and R-68s seem like the only trains in the system that did not have modifications performed on them. Is this true, or were modifications made for reasons other than cosmetic?
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: The Original
  • Message Number: 755276
  • Posted by: Steve
  • Date: Mon Jun 2 22:08:41 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]The Original posted by John on June 02, 1997 at 17:33:44: Modifications are done on a virtually ongoing basis. Modifications done during the warranty period are called FMIs. A contract like the R-68s might typically have had 50 - 60 FMIs in progress before the last car was delivered. The mods are done usually because of problems encountered during the warranty period. Other mods are done outside the scope of the warranty. The R-62s and R-68s have recently had mods such as the replacement of all glass with FRA II type glass and have had a more sensative 'Obstruction Sensing System' installed on the doors. Another modification was the installation of speedometers. The true difference between the R-68s & R-68As or the R-62s and the 62As, was the manufacturer of the car as well as thepropulsion, braking and HVAC equipment which was installed.
    

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Thread title: WHAT'S UP, N.Y.C. ? (755281)
Started on Tue Jun 3 00:04:42 1997, by PLEXONE

---

• Subject: WHAT'S UP, N.Y.C. ?
• Message Number: 755281
• Posted by: PLEXONE
• Date: Tue Jun 3 00:04:42 1997
  
  COMING TO YOU LIVE FROM MARYLAND. HAVEN'T SEEN YOU SINCE 1984. STAY COOL. PEACE!
  

  ---

  • Subject: WHAT'S UP, N.Y.C. ?
  • Message Number: 755282
  • Posted by: PLEXONE
  • Date: Tue Jun 3 00:05:20 1997
    
    COMING TO YOU LIVE FROM MARYLAND. HAVEN'T SEEN YOU SINCE 1984. STAY COOL. PEACE!
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: WHAT'S UP, N.Y.C. ?
    • Message Number: 755305
    • Posted by: John
    • Date: Tue Jun 3 17:02:49 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]WHAT'S UP, N.Y.C. ? posted by PLEXONE on June 03, 1997 at 00:05:20: Right on, baby!
      

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Thread title: BART San Francisco Track Layout Questions (755289)
Started on Tue Jun 3 09:30:45 1997, by Bill Mosteller

---

• Subject: BART San Francisco Track Layout Questions
• Message Number: 755289
• Posted by: Bill Mosteller
• Date: Tue Jun 3 09:30:45 1997
  
  I've just returned from a quick trip to San Francisco. Although extensions have been built since my last visit (including one opened days before my arrival, I gather) I only had time for a trip to Colma. Usually, when I look at a track map, I can devise a rationale for what I see. For this line, however, I cannot make head nor tail of what I saw. 1) Why is there a facing point siding on the track toward the bay tunnel, just beyond Daly City? 2) Why is there triple track between just before Colma to just after Daly City, again traveling toward the bay tunnel? 3) Why are there so many cro$$-over$ along the triple track? Was this track intended for train makeup (getting A and B cars in the right places)? 4) Is the "Daly City" yard, apparently at Colma, new? Thanks.
  

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Thread title: queensboro bridge bus shuttle (755297)
Started on Tue Jun 3 14:40:11 1997, by steve lowenthal

---

• Subject: queensboro bridge bus shuttle
• Message Number: 755297
• Posted by: steve lowenthal
• Date: Tue Jun 3 14:40:11 1997
  
  does anyone have info re routings on this new shuttle run by the dot nyc
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: queensboro bridge bus shuttle
  • Message Number: 755323
  • Posted by: Lou
  • Date: Tue Jun 3 22:37:17 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]queensboro bridge bus shuttle posted by steve lowenthal on June 03, 1997 at 14:40:11: I was walking to Queens Plaza and the street (sorry forgot it's number) that is right before the Post Office on Queen Plaza South has a bus stop sign for it (in front of the place you can make keys). Sorry I don't have more or better info then that.
    

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Thread title: "Sick in the Head" calling civilisation! (NYCSub) (755299)
Started on Tue Jun 3 16:41:26 1997, by Keranu

---

• Subject: "Sick in the Head" calling civilisation! (NYCSub)
• Message Number: 755299
• Posted by: Keranu
• Date: Tue Jun 3 16:41:26 1997
  
  OK, OK, slag me if you want. I am wondering if anyone ELSE has managed to memorize the NYC Subway. I know that this probably means I am very ill but the fact is that I had a LOT of time on my hands last winter. Too young to work and nothing to do for 3 weeks. It was also partly in eager preparation for my visit to NYC in April. I can now get from A to B without a map. Is this normal, or are there plenty of people out there in the same boat? I fear not. Please tell me if you have done the same, then I will know I am not alone. I will have forgotten it all most probably by July so if you reply and call me "weird" or stuff, it will expire in four weeks time. Incidently, I live 4500 miles from NYC on a different continent which makes this even more weird, I suppose.
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: "Sick in the Head" calling civilisation! (NYCSub)
  • Message Number: 755302
  • Posted by: John
  • Date: Tue Jun 3 17:00:05 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]"Sick in the Head" calling civilisation! (NYCSub) posted by Keranu on June 03, 1997 at 16:41:26: Fear not, Keranu, for I am in the same situation as you. I know all the routes of the New York City Subway System by heart, in addition to operating times, and equipment used on different routes. It is like I have a copy of the subway map imprinted in my brain. My friends and family are amazed at my knowledge of the subway.
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: "Sick in the Head" calling civilisation! (NYCSub)
    • Message Number: 755304
    • Posted by: John
    • Date: Tue Jun 3 17:01:44 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: "Sick in the Head" calling civilisation! (NYCSub) posted by John on June 03, 1997 at 17:00:05: What the hell happened here?
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: "Sick in the Head" calling civilisation! (NYCSub)
      • Message Number: 755314
      • Posted by: Dave Pirmann
      • Date: Tue Jun 3 19:16:10 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]"Sick in the Head" calling civilisation! (NYCSub) posted by Keranu on June 03, 1997 at 16:41:26: The real trick would be to draw the map by memory, including the stations :-) --Dave
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: "Sick in the Head" calling civilisation! (NYCSub)
        • Message Number: 755388
        • Posted by: Brian
        • Date: Thu Jun 5 22:05:54 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]"Sick in the Head" calling civilisation! (NYCSub) posted by Keranu on June 03, 1997 at 16:41:26: I'm from New York, but I memorized the system when I was 6. This is normal, and a great asset.
          

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Thread title: Re: Colour Coding (755300)
Started on Tue Jun 3 16:50:22 1997, by Keranu

---

• Subject: Re: Colour Coding
• Message Number: 755300
• Posted by: Keranu
• Date: Tue Jun 3 16:50:22 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: SORRY about 4 messages above! posted by Quigebo on May 29, 1997 at 18:16:28: What I don't understand is, why don't New Yorkers use the colours? It seems a very sensible think to do, imagine the NYC Subway map in black and white; it would be unbearably complicated. The colours are very useful. It amkes it easier to work out routes and group trains together that travel through the same Midtown Manhattan routes, i.e: 4,5,6 are all green and so you know that if the 4 goes along Lex, the 5&6 do also. My tourist guide told me that the #1, 7 Av-Bdwy and IRT can all refer to the no. 1 train but ask someone where the "red line" is and they will stare at you blankly. This seems weird as colour coding is pretty vital. It is the inly way to identify lines in London and Londoners always know the colours, red=Central line, purple=Metropolitan line, turquoise= Victoria line etc. Does the average person in the street identify his train home from work by route no./letter or colour? Would they know the Q train's colour if you asked them?
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: Colour Coding
  • Message Number: 755309
  • Posted by: Quigebo
  • Date: Tue Jun 3 17:15:29 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Colour Coding posted by Keranu on June 03, 1997 at 16:50:22: It's pretty much tradition. In fact, some branch lines in the outer boros will be referred to by name, not letter, number, or former operator (BMT, IND, or IRT). Examples include the West End (B/M), the Brighton (D/Q), the Culver (F), the Canarsie (L), the Sea Beach (N), and the 4th Av (R) in Brooklyn. Since trains on each main line in Manhattan come from at least three branches identifying each branch line by letter/number lets you identify the destination fast. If the 4, 5, and 6 were all known as the "Green Line", you'd have to have the destination diplayed on the front of all trains. It would have to be very visible fast - New York's a fast-paced town. Besides, don't Londoners refer to it as the District Line and not the Green Line?
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: Colour Coding
    • Message Number: 755334
    • Posted by: John
    • Date: Tue Jun 3 23:40:10 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Colour Coding posted by Quigebo on June 03, 1997 at 17:15:29: It is true that the color coding (on the map, at least) makes it easier to read. However, refering to a line by color would only be useful for three lines - the #7 (purple), the L (gray), and the G (light green). Other than those, referring to a line by color would cause confusion because multiple lines use the same colors. In addition, some of the colors have been changes on the map, but not on the trains. For example, when the south side of the Manhattan bridge was closed, the Q trains were rerouted onto the 6th Avenue Line. On the map, the Q is orange, but the 'Q' sign on the front and sides of the trains are still yellow (from the Broadway Line). This kind of thing would only add to the confusion. Most New Yorkers probably do know the colors and corresponding letters or numbers. If you were to ask a New Yorker for a subway by color, they probably would understand if they have a knowledge on the subway. By the way, some people still refer to subway lines by division and street (7th Avenue IRT, 8th Avenue IND, etc), and some STILL refer to the R and G by their old names - the RR and GG (my uncle calls the G the GGG. What's next, the 1,239?)
      

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Thread title: Subway train frequencies (755303)
Started on Tue Jun 3 17:00:32 1997, by Keranu

---

• Subject: Subway train frequencies
• Message Number: 755303
• Posted by: Keranu
• Date: Tue Jun 3 17:00:32 1997
  
  How regular are trains in weekday middays and at rush hours? In Midtown Manhattan where routes merge together, how tightly squeezed can trains be in the tunnels at peak times? Can they come every 2 minutes? In Midtown lines, are there more locals than express? For example, on the 8 Av line, are there more C and E combined than As or vice-versa? Why are there differences in local and express service? Assuming trains have roughly the same frequency, there would be twice as many local as express trains on the 8 Av (A,C,E) line whilst there would be a lot more express trains than local on the 6 Av line (B,D,F,Q). Am I right?
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: Subway train frequencies
  • Message Number: 755313
  • Posted by: John W. Lindloff
  • Date: Tue Jun 3 18:32:59 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Subway train frequencies posted by Keranu on June 03, 1997 at 17:00:32: Especially from the historical perspective, the topic of subway train frequencies (and the related topic of speed) is one that has fascinated me for a long time. My impression is that, during the heydays the NYC transit system (and, to the best of my knowledge, some one has yet to define the heydays, but I guess that it is safe to assume that the 20s and parts of the 30s fall into this category?), there were two conditions that do not exist today: (1) trains ran much more frequently, and (2) even more important, train travel time between between the same points was much faster, due to better roadbeds, rails, and newer, more reliable equipment. For instance, I have frequently read that the maximum time from Times Square (or was it Grand Central?) to the Far Rockaways was only 30 minutes (even after 11:00 p.m.!)!!! If this service is available today (and, to be perfectly honest, I am not sure that one go from midtown late at night to the Rockaways), no one in his right mind would schedule his personal time for this trip to be anything less than 3 hours! I lived in Manhattan from the early 70s until the mid 90s. When I first moved to Manhattan in 1971 (fresh from university with a newly acquired B.A.), I tried to learn as much as I could about subway service historically. I found very little available, and most of what was available existed unpublished--only in oral history, handed down by people who were already in their 70s when I moved to Manhattan. However, the overwhelming message that I received whenever I talked to any one who used the subway in the 1930s, 40s or 50s was that the condition of the rails, roadbed, etc., allowed for much higher speeds, that there was a much higher standard (and much higher incidence in general) of overall subway (i.e., "subway train") traffic coordination and scheduling, so that connections (and more importantly, the accuracy of scheduled connection times) at major transfer points were more realistic, dependable, and reliable, thus setting a system standard allowed extended travel from point to point over very long distances to be much faster speeds and times that were much shorter. Can anyone suggest any studies, published resources, etc., on this topic? Does anyone have any further comment?
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: Subway train frequencies
    • Message Number: 755322
    • Posted by: Lou
    • Date: Tue Jun 3 22:35:32 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Subway train frequencies posted by John W. Lindloff on June 03, 1997 at 18:32:59: Yes but back then the subway was moving a billion people a year. It's so crowded and the "new" 8 car trains give you 8 LESS doors even though they are the same train lenghth I bet station dwell times are way UP adding to the length of your trip.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: Subway train frequencies
      • Message Number: 755332
      • Posted by: Steve
      • Date: Tue Jun 3 23:26:54 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway train frequencies posted by Lou on June 03, 1997 at 22:35:32: Interesting observation. Actually that was the exact reason that the R-32s replaced the R-46s on the E line.
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: Subway train frequencies
        • Message Number: 755381
        • Posted by: jerry
        • Date: Thu Jun 5 16:27:58 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: Subway train frequencies posted by Steve on June 03, 1997 at 23:26:54: In the 30's and 40's nobody made it from Manhattan to Rockaway on the subway in thirty minutes or three hours. The service was provided by the Long Island Rail Road over the same roadbed and structures now used by the subway. At some point, a fire occurred on the bridge to Rockaway and the railroad dropped service. In the 50's, the Transit Authority took over the route, rebuilt the bridge and connected it to the IND.
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: Subway train frequencies
          • Message Number: 755387
          • Posted by: Steve
          • Date: Thu Jun 5 20:39:02 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway train frequencies posted by jerry on June 05, 1997 at 16:27:58: Absolutely correct. The Rock-Park line re-opened in 1956 and the Far Rock portion in 1958. Good looking out.....
            

            ---

            • Subject: Re: Subway train frequencies
            • Message Number: 756828
            • Posted by: Jay Yudof
            • Date: Mon Aug 25 19:53:34 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway train frequencies posted by John W. Lindloff on June 03, 1997 at 18:32:59: Looking at speed, how much faster can anyone have run in the system (say, 15% shorter station holding and 15% faster running isn't that profound an improvement). Looking at rush hour loading, it's obvious that frequency is the inverse of headway. The rush hour headway in a constrained point (like a Queens-Manhattan tunnel) at a given headway (like 120 seconds), yields a peak frequency of 30 trains (summing all the service which uses the tunnel). Traffic requirements have shifted (like the fall-off of Bronx service), but the bottlenecks haven't been pruned. I recall a page (I think in Joe Brennan's strings) of headways, showing most bottlenecks at peak running over 30 trains/hr. Looking at off-peak, we all know that service is way down, especaially on weekends, when there are no train crews on swing. Regarding co-ordinated conections, I would be interested if anyone (esp. an insider) knows of any current or past work on coordinating inter-line connections (except the obvious, like shuttles on the midnight service).
              

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Thread title: Re: new Brighton Line section (755315)
Started on Tue Jun 3 19:19:35 1997, by Dave Pirmann

---

• Subject: Re: new Brighton Line section
• Message Number: 755315
• Posted by: Dave Pirmann
• Date: Tue Jun 3 19:19:35 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: New Domain Name posted by Gerry O'Regan on June 03, 1997 at 08:57:59: Great suggestions. Maybe you'd like to help write it? Seriously, I/we can use all the help we can get... I'd eventually like to have histories of all the lines but that's a full time writing and research job. Maybe if someone could volunteer to one line each, this could work really well. As I see it, the "lines" that need describing are... IRT Division Dyre Avenue Line - NYW&B Jerome Ave Woodlawn Pelham Bay Line White Plains Road Lexington Avenue West Side Brooklyn Extension (or original IRT, Contract 2, Dual Contracts) Flushing IND Division Sixth Ave Trunk Eighth Avenue Trunk Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown Fulton Avenue Queens Boulevard Smith-Church Sts. BMT Lines Astoria Broadway Manhattan Broadway - Jamaica Fourth Ave Subway Canarsie Culver Sea Beach West End Any takers? Contact me in email and I'll get you what I have already for each one. --Dave
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: new Brighton Line section
  • Message Number: 755345
  • Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
  • Date: Wed Jun 4 03:25:06 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: new Brighton Line section posted by Dave Pirmann on June 03, 1997 at 19:19:35: What you MUST make use of are the treasures of info in the old NY Division ERA Bulletin - history, route info, track maps with anotations... Mandatory!
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: new Brighton Line section
    • Message Number: 755349
    • Posted by: David Pirmann
    • Date: Wed Jun 4 15:02:45 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: new Brighton Line section posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on June 04, 1997 at 03:25:06: I'd love to. But that stuff is copyrighted and permission would need to be obtained. I've already asked for permission to scan some stuff from the ERA "Headlights" but I've gotten no responses from them in about a month's time. Do you have contacts in those organizations that you could work with to get permission and the source material? Please email me if you do. --Dave
      

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Thread title: WHat happened with "Sick in the head"? (755317)
Started on Tue Jun 3 20:00:45 1997, by BRYAN LAYNE

---

• Subject: WHat happened with "Sick in the head"?
• Message Number: 755317
• Posted by: BRYAN LAYNE
• Date: Tue Jun 3 20:00:45 1997
  
  is anyone else seeing what im seeing when you click on the followups to "Sick in the head"?
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: WHat happened with "Sick in the head"?
  • Message Number: 755318
  • Posted by: Peter Rosa
  • Date: Tue Jun 3 20:23:03 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]WHat happened with "Sick in the head"? posted by BRYAN LAYNE on June 03, 1997 at 20:00:45: I just noticed it too, something isn't registering right with the replies.
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: WHat happened with "Sick in the head"?
    • Message Number: 755319
    • Posted by: David Pirmann
    • Date: Tue Jun 3 21:15:23 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]WHat happened with "Sick in the head"? posted by BRYAN LAYNE on June 03, 1997 at 20:00:45: Looks like a bug in wwwboard. Probably a race condition where two people are posting at the same time. I'll take a look at it but that's what you get from free software... --Dave
      

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Thread title: Funny train assignments (755326)
Started on Tue Jun 3 22:51:04 1997, by M.J.S.

---

• Subject: Funny train assignments
• Message Number: 755326
• Posted by: M.J.S.
• Date: Tue Jun 3 22:51:04 1997
  
  Can someone PLEASE explain to me why I saw an uptown R-68 B at W4 during the AM rush on 2 separate occasions? an R-40 N at Stillwell during the midday? and an 95 bound R-32 R at DeKalb today in the PM rush?
  

  ---

  • Subject: Funny train assignments
  • Message Number: 755327
  • Posted by: M.J.S.
  • Date: Tue Jun 3 22:51:06 1997
    
    Can someone PLEASE explain to me why I saw an uptown R-68 B at W4 during the AM rush on 2 separate occasions, an R-40 N at Stillwell during the midday, and an 95 bound R-32 R at DeKalb today in the PM rush?
    

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    • Subject: Re: Funny train assignments
    • Message Number: 755329
    • Posted by: John
    • Date: Tue Jun 3 23:18:28 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Funny train assignments posted by M.J.S. on June 03, 1997 at 22:51:06: Well, R-68s are now being used on the B regularly (I rode in one on one time, and I also saw a few), although the majority of Bs are still R-40s. The N has a couple (maybe even just one) R-40 on it, and I rode in it a couple of times. I don't know about the R-32 R train. I thought the R was exclusively R-44/R-46.
      

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      • Subject: Re: Funny train assignments
      • Message Number: 755330
      • Posted by: Steve
      • Date: Tue Jun 3 23:19:38 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Funny train assignments posted by M.J.S. on June 03, 1997 at 22:51:06: I can explain 2 very easily: First, the R-68 B train was actually an R-68A. There are three 8-car R-68A trains assigned to the B line. During the evening hours they are cut into 4 car trains and used for OPTO service. The 3rd serves as a spare. Second, the R-32s on the R line. There are, I believe, 28 trains assigned to the R line. Up to 3 trains can be 10 car R-32s. Finally, the R-40s on the N line. Here your guess is as good as mine. What I will tell you is that if there are not enough cars of the required type to make full service, RTO will use anything that is available & compatible to make full service. By the way, car assignments are made by the Operations-Planning Dept.
        

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        • Subject: Re: Funny train assignments
        • Message Number: 755331
        • Posted by: Steve
        • Date: Tue Jun 3 23:22:41 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: Funny train assignments posted by John on June 03, 1997 at 23:18:28: R-44s are NEVER EVER used in R service. The R service calls for 25 8-car R-46 consists and 3 10-car R-32 consists but never an R-44. They are exclusive to the A or C lines
          

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          • Subject: Re: Funny train assignments
          • Message Number: 755341
          • Posted by: Quigebo
          • Date: Wed Jun 4 01:22:25 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: Funny train assignments posted by Steve on June 03, 1997 at 23:19:38: And check out the proposed BMT/IND car assignments for 2001, when the Q begins Queens Blvd service through 63rd St on Joe Korman's site. It includes the N getting five 10-car R40s and nine 10-car R42s, because its R68s/68As are going to the Q for its new service and becuase the L and M are recieving new R143s that same year.
            

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            • Subject: Re: Funny train assignments
            • Message Number: 755357
            • Posted by: John
            • Date: Wed Jun 4 16:41:28 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: Funny train assignments posted by Steve on June 03, 1997 at 23:22:41: What's the difference between the R-44s and the R-46s? Time and time again, I've looked for the tiniest difference, and time and time again, I have failed to find it. They both look exactly alike.
              

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              • Subject: Re: Funny train assignments
              • Message Number: 755362
              • Posted by: David L.
              • Date: Wed Jun 4 22:04:59 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]Re: Funny train assignments posted by Quigebo on June 04, 1997 at 01:22:25: What is the address to Joe Korman's site?
                

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                • Subject: Re: Funny train assignments
                • Message Number: 755364
                • Posted by: Steve
                • Date: Wed Jun 4 22:23:02 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [5]Re: Funny train assignments posted by Quigebo on June 04, 1997 at 01:22:25: I've seen a dozen variations of those car assignments. I hate to say that they are BS but largely, they are only guestimates. Since at least one of the contracts you mentioned is scheduled for partial retirement (scrapping) by 2001 and the TA may have many changes at the executive level by then, I would not put much stock in any such plans. They might as well be writing the TA version of the Farmers' Almanac.
                  

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                  • Subject: Re: Funny train assignments
                  • Message Number: 755365
                  • Posted by: Steve
                  • Date: Wed Jun 4 22:33:49 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [5]Re: Funny train assignments posted by John on June 04, 1997 at 16:41:28: Cosmetically, there is little difference. The most significant cosmetic difference is that the Cab on the R-44 is uncomfortably small while the R-46 cab is about two feet deeper. The major differences are in the mechanical aspects of the car. Those differences are less so since both cars underwent overhaul in 1990 -1992. The major differences are. Propulsion - R-46 GE SCM-1 controllers with NY AirBrake single handle master controller R-44 Westinghouse E-Cam controller with Westcode Master Controller. Braking. R-46 NY Air Brake braking R-44 Westcode Braking HVAC R-46 Thermoking R-44 Stone Safety Air Compressor R-46 WABCO D-4ES R-44 KNORR Rotary Doors R-46 Westcode R-44 Vapor Car Builder/Rebuilder R-46 Builder - Pullman Standard Rebuilder - Morrison Knudsen R-44 Builder St.Louis Car Co. Rebuilder Morrison Knudsen & NYCT 50% Each
                    

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                    • Subject: Re: Funny train assignments
                    • Message Number: 755439
                    • Posted by: Charles
                    • Date: Sat Jun 7 18:12:59 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [6]Re: Funny train assignments posted by John on June 03, 1997 at 23:18:28: R68A's are now assigned to the "B" from the "N", this is easier to set up the OPTO trains. Several trains of R68's were taken off the N and transferred to the Q. In exchange the "N" got several sets of R40's from the "B". In response to the R32 question. The R32 came off the "N" from City Hall Lay up. It is usually seen on the weekend or evening rush hour. Sometimes there is even an R46 put on the "N" in the evening rush hour.
                      

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                      • Subject: Re: Funny train assignments
                      • Message Number: 755457
                      • Posted by: Michael Berson
                      • Date: Sun Jun 8 00:33:36 1997
                        
                        In Reply to: [6]Re: Funny train assignments posted by John on June 04, 1997 at 16:41:28: If you look at the where the old "blue band" used to be, aren't the R-44's grey, while the R-46's are silver??
                        

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                        • Subject: Re: Funny train assignments
                        • Message Number: 755468
                        • Posted by: Steve
                        • Date: Sun Jun 8 03:05:51 1997
                          
                          In Reply to: [5]Re: Funny train assignments posted by Michael Berson on June 08, 1997 at 00:33:36: Yes. When the blue stripe was removed, the R-44s had significant corrossion under the paint where-as the R-46s did not. The R-44s could not be satisfactorily restored, hence the paint.
                          

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Thread title: Re: LIRR Signals (for Charles Fiori) (755336)
Started on Tue Jun 3 23:46:10 1997, by Steve

---

• Subject: Re: LIRR Signals (for Charles Fiori)
• Message Number: 755336
• Posted by: Steve
• Date: Tue Jun 3 23:46:10 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR Signals posted by Charles Fiori on June 03, 1997 at 07:44:59: Thanks, I'd appreciate that. In the meantime I was told that I can get a copy at The Hillside Mtce. Facility the next time I'm there. (Whenever that'll be)
  

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Thread title: Re: B-D/Sheppard/Eglinton (755339)
Started on Wed Jun 4 00:57:29 1997, by Brian

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• Subject: Re: B-D/Sheppard/Eglinton
• Message Number: 755339
• Posted by: Brian
• Date: Wed Jun 4 00:57:29 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Toronto subway/signals posted by Nathan on June 02, 1997 at 00:16:04: 1) The Bloor-Danforth line is actually both cut-and-cover and bored tunnel. The easiest way to tell which section is which is to actually ride the subway and look at the shape of the tunnel. If it is box-shaped, as most of the line is, then it is cut-and-cover. But if the tunnel is circular, like the section from Yonge to Sherbourne as well as other sections, then it is bored tunnel. 2) When the Sheppard line goes into service, there probably won't be integrated operations with the Y-U-S since this would create delays at a point on the line where there are already too many (it is near Finch, which is the end of the line). 3) Of all the great improvements proposed by the TTC, the one that has the greatest chance of being built in the near future is the Eglinton West subway. This will probably only start once the Sheppard line and the Spadina LRT
  

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  • Subject: Re: B-D/Sheppard/Eglinton
  • Message Number: 755342
  • Posted by: Nathan
  • Date: Wed Jun 4 01:44:29 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: B-D/Sheppard/Eglinton posted by Brian on June 04, 1997 at 00:57:29: When does the Spadina LRT open? Is there going to be a new model LRV or will the line just use ALRV's? I'll be in T.O. this summer and I was hoping the Spadina LRT will be open by then.
    

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Thread title: Posting and follow-up method (755344)
Started on Wed Jun 4 03:19:21 1997, by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto

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• Subject: Posting and follow-up method
• Message Number: 755344
• Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
• Date: Wed Jun 4 03:19:21 1997
  
  For everyone's benefit, David, can you explain why often we find reply posts with the exact title of an existing thread appearing as a seperate thread without linkage? Is this a bug, are people entering their replies as new posts, and if the latter is true, perhaps the system should automatically unite them if they occur within a certain time frame of the original post...
  

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  • Subject: Re: Posting and follow-up method
  • Message Number: 755346
  • Posted by: David Pirmann
  • Date: Wed Jun 4 10:11:10 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Posting and follow-up method posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on June 04, 1997 at 03:19:21: That happens when the original parent of the article is expired. For instance... Marker Lights - by soandso Re: Marker Lights - M.J.S Re: Marker Lights - Andrew Huie Re: Marker Lights - Steve When the original article is moved to the archive, the two followups become two seperate top level articles. Perhaps that's not logical but I don't think it's a bug, exactly... Want to see the code? Maybe you can come up with some improvements. I'm not really a programmer.... --Dave
    

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Thread title: Re: Spadina LRT (755353)
Started on Wed Jun 4 15:46:22 1997, by Brian

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• Subject: Re: Spadina LRT
• Message Number: 755353
• Posted by: Brian
• Date: Wed Jun 4 15:46:22 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: B-D/Sheppard/Eglinton posted by Nathan on June 04, 1997 at 01:44:29: Construction of the Spadina LRT began in late 1992 and it was originally scheduled to open in early 1997, but last time I checked (last week) it wasn't open yet. From what I can see, however, it looks like it is near completion so expect to see it running some time this summer. When in operation, expect to see CLRVs or ALRVs in service on this line. I have not heard of any plans for a new LRV.
  

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Thread title: TTC/listening in (755354)
Started on Wed Jun 4 15:55:40 1997, by Brian

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• Subject: TTC/listening in
• Message Number: 755354
• Posted by: Brian
• Date: Wed Jun 4 15:55:40 1997
  
  I own a scanner radio and would love to listen to the TTC subway in operation. Does anyone know any radio frequencies that I could use?
  

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  • Subject: Re: TTC/listening in
  • Message Number: 755367
  • Posted by: Steve
  • Date: Wed Jun 4 22:45:07 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]TTC/listening in posted by Brian on June 04, 1997 at 15:55:40: I suggest that you just ask. If you don't want to do that, in the US, Radio Shack publishes a book with most frequencies for air, marine rail, police and fire. I suppose that the same info is available up north. However, keep in mind that you will not receive tunnel chat if you are in the street.
    

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Thread title: What are interlocking signals? (755356)
Started on Wed Jun 4 16:27:26 1997, by Brian

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• Subject: What are interlocking signals?
• Message Number: 755356
• Posted by: Brian
• Date: Wed Jun 4 16:27:26 1997
  
  What are interlocking signals? There are many on the TTC subway but I have no idea how they work or what their different colours mean.
  

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  • Subject: Re: What are interlocking signals?
  • Message Number: 755363
  • Posted by: Steve
  • Date: Wed Jun 4 22:15:29 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]What are interlocking signals? posted by Brian on June 04, 1997 at 16:27:26: Interlocking signals are signals which protect an interlocking area (switches). On the NYCT system, currently, there are two major types of signals, Home signals and automatic signals. Automatic signals are the signals which control the majority of the train movements over straight rails (no switches). They turn red when a train is on their circuit or the following circuit. As the train advances they change to a caution 'indication' and then green. This is done without any human control, hence automatic. Automatic signals usually display only one aspect at a time (one color). Home signals are controlled from a tower either nearby or miles away. They are usually used to control traffic over switches. On the NYCT, Home signals display two aspects. The top aspect gives you the condition of the track ahead (like an automatic signal). The lower aspect gives you the direction of travel, either normal or diverging route. There are only 5 different aspects that a home signal will display on the B division. they are. Green over Green - proceed on main route. green over yellow - proceed on diverging route yellow over green - proceed on normal route & be prepared to stop at next signal yellow over yellow - proceed over diverging route & be prepared to stop at next signal Red over Red - Stop There are dozens of variations and the IRT signals are also different but I'm sure you get the idea.
    

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    • Subject: Re: What are interlocking signals?
    • Message Number: 755372
    • Posted by: Nathan
    • Date: Thu Jun 5 01:49:49 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: What are interlocking signals? posted by Steve on June 04, 1997 at 22:15:29: Hmmm, so that is what interlocking signals are. So in Toronto, if the signal is red, the little "trip arm" comes up and stops a train that is running a red light, unless of course you have a heavy footed driver and an arm that can't get all the way up, then you have what happened on the Spadina Subway 2 years ago? Lovely. P.S. Brian, is TTC Subway and Streetcar/lrv rail welded?
      

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      • Subject: Re: What are interlocking signals?
      • Message Number: 755386
      • Posted by: Steve
      • Date: Thu Jun 5 20:34:15 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: What are interlocking signals? posted by Nathan on June 05, 1997 at 01:49:49: In the NYCT signal system, this is not likely to happen - barring a mechanical failure. A signal at danger will have it's stop arm up. In the case of an automatic signal, a train operator can "KEY BY" the signal by pulling the train up to the signal and then proceeding very slowly. Once the train is on the circuit, the stop arm will go down, however, this must be done at speeds under 5 MPH. This is done ONLY under permission by a supervisor (Rule 37n) In the case of a Home Signal, the tower operator may permit a train to enter an already occupied block by displaying a "CALL ON" signal. This is a third aspect on the signal which would typically be Red/Red/Yellow. The Train operator accepts the call on by activating a lever on the signal. He may then proceed into the occupied block (rule 37j among others)
        

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        • Subject: Re: What are interlocking signals?
        • Message Number: 755394
        • Posted by: Fitz
        • Date: Fri Jun 6 14:27:09 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: What are interlocking signals? posted by Steve on June 05, 1997 at 20:34:15: By rulebook definition, an interlocking is an "arrangement of switch and signal devices installed at locations where trains may be routed from one track to another".These switches and signals are "interlocked" in that once a route has been established,no other movements that would conflict with the established route can take place.Information as to which way the switches are set is conveyed to an approaching train by means of colored lights or combinations thereof displayed on the signal. On most rapid transit systems,interlocking signals are identified by a number,plus the letter "X".
          

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          • Subject: Re: What are interlocking signals?
          • Message Number: 755395
          • Posted by: Fitz
          • Date: Fri Jun 6 14:27:45 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: What are interlocking signals? posted by Steve on June 05, 1997 at 20:34:15: By rulebook definition, an interlocking is an "arrangement of switch and signal devices installed at locations where trains may be routed from one track to another".These switches and signals are "interlocked" in that once a route has been established,no other movements that would conflict with the established route can take place.Information as to which way the switches are set is conveyed to an approaching train by means of colored lights or combinations thereof displayed on the signal. On most rapid transit systems,interlocking signals are identified by a number,plus the letter "X".
            

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            • Subject: Re: What are interlocking signals?
            • Message Number: 755412
            • Posted by: Steve
            • Date: Fri Jun 6 19:58:38 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: What are interlocking signals? posted by Fitz on June 06, 1997 at 14:27:45: Very good but what do the numbers on the signal stand for?
              

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              • Subject: Re: What are interlocking signals?
              • Message Number: 755430
              • Posted by: Fitz
              • Date: Sat Jun 7 14:29:01 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]Re: What are interlocking signals? posted by Steve on June 06, 1997 at 19:58:38: While policies vary from place to place, it's mainly a means of quick reference for the tower operator. Within a given interlocking,all switches and signals are numbered;e.g.signals are even numbered and switches odd numbered.(Again,this is a matter of individual policy.) In a case like this,#2 signal would be associated with and govern the use of #1 switch and so on.
                

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                • Subject: Re: What are interlocking signals?
                • Message Number: 755436
                • Posted by: Nathan
                • Date: Sat Jun 7 15:36:00 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [5]Re: What are interlocking signals? posted by Steve on June 05, 1997 at 20:34:15: It wasn't likely on the Toronto system, being 40 years younger than parts of the NY line, besides, the line where that "boo boo" did happen 2 years ago was (i think) the Spadina line of the tube) was built in 78!! I suppose their trip arms would be in better condition mechanically than the trip arms in ny...
                  

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                  • Subject: Re: What are interlocking signals?
                  • Message Number: 755437
                  • Posted by: Nathan
                  • Date: Sat Jun 7 15:36:38 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [5]Re: What are interlocking signals? posted by Steve on June 05, 1997 at 20:34:15: It wasn't likely on the Toronto system, being 40 years younger than parts of the NY line, besides, the line where that "boo boo" happened 2 years ago was (i think) the Spadina line of the tube, which was built in 78!! I suppose their trip arms would be in better condition mechanically than the trip arms in ny...
                    

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                    • Subject: Re: What are interlocking signals?
                    • Message Number: 755448
                    • Posted by: Steve
                    • Date: Sat Jun 7 20:52:09 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [5]Re: What are interlocking signals? posted by Nathan on June 07, 1997 at 15:36:38: I'm not familiar with the signal system in Toronto, having not been on the system since 1981. It's safe to say that the signal system, albiet 40 years younger than NYs signals, did not do the job. By the way, Toronto has just postponed plans to convert to a CBTC (communications based train control) systen. They are waiting for the NYCT to set the standards on the 'L' line before the turn of the century.
                      

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                      • Subject: Re: What are interlocking signals?
                      • Message Number: 755454
                      • Posted by: Nathan
                      • Date: Sat Jun 7 22:23:30 1997
                        
                        In Reply to: [5]Re: What are interlocking signals? posted by Steve on June 07, 1997 at 20:52:09: Ah yes, us canadians waiting for YOU to set the standards. Good god. The signal did not do the job, yes. But the operator also happened to run a red light, so both factors were at work. But the TTC is not going to convert to CBTC because we are waiting for NYCT to set the standard? Uh uh! The problem is that Mike Harris's government is anti-transit and cutting the ttc to the bone. I do not see why toronto would wait for nyct to set the standard, political "buy canadian" influence would probably lead to toronto and bombardier etc into developing a new signal system. Waiting for an antiquated (though massive) (hint hint)subway system to prove a new technology would be pointless. Anyway, i still think there is nothing better (and safer) than SELTRAC moving block signaling, found in Vancouver, and the new subway lines in Ankara turkey and Kuala Lumpur, malaysia. Of course, we know NYCT will set the standard, well, purchase the equipment from non american company and claim the fame for themselves... Typical.
                        

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                        • Subject: Re: What are interlocking signals?
                        • Message Number: 755467
                        • Posted by: Steve
                        • Date: Sun Jun 8 03:03:19 1997
                          
                          In Reply to: [5]Re: What are interlocking signals? posted by Nathan on June 07, 1997 at 22:23:30: You're letting your nationalistic pride blurr your vision. Perhaps before you get too far from the facts you should read the article in the current issue of "Progressive Railroading". TTC backed out of their plans for a demo of CBTC at the 11th hour.
                          

                          ---

                          • Subject: Re: What are interlocking signals?
                          • Message Number: 755658
                          • Posted by: Bingo
                          • Date: Fri Jun 13 10:16:44 1997
                            
                            In Reply to: [5]Re: What are interlocking signals? posted by Nathan on June 07, 1997 at 15:36:00: The accident occured between Dupont and St. Clair West Stations. But it was the brand of signal that did them in, not the type of signalling system. The signals that were installed in the Spadina line tube in 1976 were manufactured by Ericsson of Sweden. The TTC consigned Ericsson because their signals were cheaper than those being offered by Canadian and American companies. However, the signals had to be modified for TTC standards. The triparm, which was originally designed to be in the middle of the track, was moved to just inside the right rail. TTC totally fucked up the modification, however, and through stupid bureaucracy and mismanagement, the error went unnoticed. A grease nipple was implemented into the design to compensate for a bolt which would slow the triparm down before it hit a leather cushion. That nipple just overhanged onto the running rail surface, but not by much. When the fatal train ran the red light, the triparm did'nt trip. The wheel hit the nipple, forcing the triparm down, and by the time it made it's way up again, the emergency trip had already passed by. The accident cost 3 lives, the largest toll in TTC history.
                            

                            ---

                            • Subject: Re: What are interlocking signals?
                            • Message Number: 755716
                            • Posted by: Jimmy
                            • Date: Mon Jun 16 00:02:38 1997
                              
                              In Reply to: [5]Re: What are interlocking signals? posted by Bingo on June 13, 1997 at 10:16:44: It sounds like you have inside information. As cavalair as it may sound, we have a saying for such unfortunate occurrences: "SHIT HAPPENS" BTW, did anyone lose their job?
                              

                              ---

                              • Subject: Re: What are interlocking signals?
                              • Message Number: 755765
                              • Posted by: Bingo
                              • Date: Tue Jun 17 19:14:16 1997
                                
                                In Reply to: [5]Re: What are interlocking signals? posted by Jimmy on June 16, 1997 at 00:02:38: The motorman lost his job, and deservedly. He was totally incompetent and had made the same error (running the trip) thrice previously without disciplinary action. You see what I mean about poor management?
                                

                                ---

                                • Subject: Re: What are interlocking signals?
                                • Message Number: 755892
                                • Posted by: Nathan
                                • Date: Fri Jun 20 19:55:48 1997
                                  
                                  In Reply to: [5]Re: What are interlocking signals? posted by Bingo on June 17, 1997 at 19:14:16: Oh, i thought the motorman died. Ooops, bastard deserved it though.
                                  

                                  ---

                                  • Subject: Re: What are interlocking signals?
                                  • Message Number: 755901
                                  • Posted by: Steve
                                  • Date: Fri Jun 20 21:30:36 1997
                                    
                                    In Reply to: [5]Re: What are interlocking signals? posted by Bingo on June 17, 1997 at 19:14:16: I know very little about the Toronto System.. How is it possible to run a trip on that system and keep going? On the NYCT system, if you hit a trip, brakepipe air is vented to atmosphere and the emergency brakes apply - PERIOD.
                                    

                                    ---

                                    • Subject: Re: What are interlocking signals?
                                    • Message Number: 755976
                                    • Posted by: Bingo
                                    • Date: Sun Jun 22 16:16:44 1997
                                      
                                      In Reply to: [5]Re: What are interlocking signals? posted by Steve on June 20, 1997 at 21:30:36: Trains are NOT supposed to go through trip arms in ANY circumstance. The design of the trip arm was faulty, and allowed the train to pass by. It's as simple as that.
                                      

                                      ---

                                      • Subject: Re: What are interlocking signals?
                                      • Message Number: 755998
                                      • Posted by: Bingo
                                      • Date: Mon Jun 23 16:27:00 1997
                                        
                                        In Reply to: [5]Re: What are interlocking signals? posted by Nathan on June 20, 1997 at 19:55:48: You know what? I still don't understand how he could have possibly survived! It's almost like the accident was planned...
                                        

                                        ---

                                        • Subject: Re: What are interlocking signals?
                                        • Message Number: 756825
                                        • Posted by: M.J.S.
                                        • Date: Wed Jun 4 23:00:18 1997
                                          
                                          In Reply to: [6]Re: What are interlocking signals? posted by Steve on June 04, 1997 at 22:15:29: What about Call-on lights on interlocking signals, what are they for? and what about explaining the Grade-Time Control (which I can't).
                                          

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Thread title: Are there any remaining open restrooms? (755360)
Started on Wed Jun 4 20:16:49 1997, by Bob

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• Subject: Are there any remaining open restrooms?
• Message Number: 755360
• Posted by: Bob
• Date: Wed Jun 4 20:16:49 1997
  
  This has always been a pet "pee"ve of mine: Years ago, as late as the early '60's as I recall , just about every station had toilet facilities that were open at least during the daytime. Nowadays, it seems that, if nature happens to call at an inopportune time, you have to exit the subway . Are there any open restrooms left?
  

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  • Subject: Re: Are there any remaining open restrooms?
  • Message Number: 755366
  • Posted by: Jim
  • Date: Wed Jun 4 22:41:51 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Are there any remaining open restrooms? posted by Bob on June 04, 1997 at 20:16:49: For the most part - no although there are a few like 179th Street on the F line. Unfortunately, the public mess them up or they end up becoming cruising areas for our 'alternative lifestyle' friends.
    

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    • Subject: Re: Are there any remaining open restrooms?
    • Message Number: 755370
    • Posted by: James A.
    • Date: Thu Jun 5 00:05:12 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Are there any remaining open restrooms? posted by Bob on June 04, 1997 at 20:16:49: Yup, look for any secluded corner near the platform ends. ;>) Like Tucan Sam used to say "Just follow your nose!" Seriously, The only open one I know of is the one in the Main Street station on the #7 Flushing line.
      

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      • Subject: Re: Are there any remaining open restrooms?
      • Message Number: 755371
      • Posted by: Nathan
      • Date: Thu Jun 5 01:44:55 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Are there any remaining open restrooms? posted by James A. on June 05, 1997 at 00:05:12: Secluded end of the platform? Good in theory, but (sorry for being rude) there are electrified 3rd rails, a relieved rider might receive a refreshing *ZAP*!!!
        

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        • Subject: Re: Are there any remaining open restrooms?
        • Message Number: 755378
        • Posted by: James A.
        • Date: Thu Jun 5 09:43:46 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: Are there any remaining open restrooms? posted by Nathan on June 05, 1997 at 01:44:55: Well,I guess it should only be attempted by those with good aim then! ;)
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: Are there any remaining open restrooms?
          • Message Number: 755382
          • Posted by: John
          • Date: Thu Jun 5 16:35:29 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: Are there any remaining open restrooms? posted by Jim on June 04, 1997 at 22:41:51: I also know of a restroom in the Coney Island station, and also 95th Street on the R line. Of course, you can always go between the cars of a train.
            

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            • Subject: Re: Are there any remaining open restrooms?
            • Message Number: 755470
            • Posted by: Fitz
            • Date: Sun Jun 8 10:31:05 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: Are there any remaining open restrooms? posted by John on June 05, 1997 at 16:35:29: While I sympathize with the general feeling of aggravation concerning the lack of restrooms,it should be remembered that many of them HAD to be closed due to the vandalism and other activities that took place in them. Also, as one whose work frequently requires him to get between cars and handle the equipment there,I can emphatically say that I don't appreciate "suprises" Such as mystery liquids,fecal matter and used hypodermic needles.
              

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Thread title: Subway/Bus Transfer (755361)
Started on Wed Jun 4 21:09:27 1997, by Brian

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• Subject: Subway/Bus Transfer
• Message Number: 755361
• Posted by: Brian
• Date: Wed Jun 4 21:09:27 1997
  
  It is about time that there is subway-bus transfer in this city. We deserve it for $1.50. However, does anyone know how this will affect the student passes. I want to know if I will be able to use the transfer next year with my pass.
  

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  • Subject: Re: Subway/Bus Transfer
  • Message Number: 755368
  • Posted by: M.J.S.
  • Date: Wed Jun 4 23:04:44 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Subway/Bus Transfer posted by Brian on June 04, 1997 at 21:09:27: You won't get a pass next year, you'll get a MetroCard
    

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    • Subject: Re: Subway/Bus Transfer
    • Message Number: 755407
    • Posted by: Lou
    • Date: Fri Jun 6 19:21:03 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Subway/Bus Transfer posted by Brian on June 04, 1997 at 21:09:27: No student Passes, all will be metro card with 3 or 4 rides per day max. Think it is gonna be 3 rides a day. You'll be able to transfer as per the metro card rules (within 2 hours etc.)
      

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Thread title: Portland Westside Light Rail (755375)
Started on Thu Jun 5 02:06:32 1997, by Nathan

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• Subject: Portland Westside Light Rail
• Message Number: 755375
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Thu Jun 5 02:06:32 1997
  
  Regarding Portland's new Westside MAX line under construction, I heard an unconfirmed rumour that not only does the new line travel through a 3 mile tunnel, but that in the middle of the tunnel there is a subway style station, 260 feet below the ground!! Ack! Is that true?? P.S. Does anyone have any daily ridership stats for the San Diego or Calgary light rail systems? I heard calgary carried 115 000 people per day but again I'm not sure. Thanx
  

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Thread title: Getting to the garment district from Jersey (755377)
Started on Thu Jun 5 09:43:04 1997, by Sharise

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• Subject: Getting to the garment district from Jersey
• Message Number: 755377
• Posted by: Sharise
• Date: Thu Jun 5 09:43:04 1997
  
  I haven't been home (nj) in years and when I was there I never really took public transit. I know the NY subway system is massive so I need some help asap. Can anyone tell me how to get from say, Jersey City to NY's garment district (7th ave., I believe)on the train ?
  

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  • Subject: Re: Getting to the garment district from Jersey
  • Message Number: 755379
  • Posted by: Quigebo
  • Date: Thu Jun 5 13:57:55 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Getting to the garment district from Jersey posted by Sharise on June 05, 1997 at 09:43:04: You can take the PATH train from Journal Square. Take the train heading for 33rd St. Get off at 23rd St and walk 1 block west to 7th Av.
    

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Thread title: Unequaled (755380)
Started on Thu Jun 5 15:05:08 1997, by George Demas

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• Subject: Unequaled
• Message Number: 755380
• Posted by: George Demas
• Date: Thu Jun 5 15:05:08 1997
  
  I left THE BIG APPLE in 1971. Outside of my shock at the new subway fares(a token was only 15 cents when I left), I must tell you to appreciate what you've got. There is no other transit system in the U.S. that compares to New York's.
  

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  • Subject: Re: Unequaled
  • Message Number: 755384
  • Posted by: Bryan Layne
  • Date: Thu Jun 5 19:50:47 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Unequaled posted by George Demas on June 05, 1997 at 15:05:08: Right On! Better Believe It.
    

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    • Subject: Re: Unequaled
    • Message Number: 755391
    • Posted by: Bill J
    • Date: Fri Jun 6 09:16:48 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Unequaled posted by Bryan Layne on June 05, 1997 at 19:50:47: I left NYC in 1970 but I've visited several times since. Yesterday I took a day off work to come into the city and ride the rails. Apart from being the best amusement ride ever made, I was really impressed with how the system has kept on. (And it wasn't a reat day for MTA... a track fire on Manhattan Bridge, a "smoke condition" at Prospect Park / Brighton... it all made for some very unusual routing.) Also visited the transit musuem which is great. The funny thing is even though I choose to concentrate on the BMT in south Brooklyn, the biggest thrill of the day was seeing the IRT redbirds at Court Street. They're STILL running!! And that sound, the squeeling brakes... now that's a subway train. Thanks New York and NY Subway for a great day. Bill
      

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      • Subject: Re: Unequaled
      • Message Number: 755397
      • Posted by: Quigebo
      • Date: Fri Jun 6 16:18:08 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Unequaled posted by Bill J on June 06, 1997 at 09:16:48: Our subway definately has no equal. And I found that out the hard way. I got to school down in Philadelphia, and I must say their subway system is a joke! You know the famous subway odor? Well, it's ten times worse in Philly than in the Big Apple. Their Market-Frankford El cars are forty years old and have never been overhauled, unlike our Redbirds. So the El cars have no A/C and the materials used in the interior look ancient. The Philly system doesn't take you where you want to go a lot of the time because there are only two lines with one line having a branch that doesn't run on Sunday and very little service on Saturday. And it costs more than our system ($1.60). I definately appreciate the New York City Subway, having grown up with it my whole life.
        

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        • Subject: Re: Unequaled
        • Message Number: 755402
        • Posted by: M.J.S.
        • Date: Fri Jun 6 18:28:00 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: Unequaled posted by Bill J on June 06, 1997 at 09:16:48: The RedBirds are still running, isn't that a shame.
          

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          • Subject: Re: Unequaled
          • Message Number: 755417
          • Posted by: Brian
          • Date: Fri Jun 6 21:33:12 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Unequaled posted by George Demas on June 05, 1997 at 15:05:08: Our system is definitely unequaled in many ways, especially size. It takes you where you need to go. Philadelphia's system is horrible. The fare is rediculous (even more rediculous than here), and there are only two lines, so it does not take you where you need to go. They have cars from 1961 running on one of their two main lines, and unlike the redbirds little maintenence has been done on it. West of 15th St., the trolleys are much better. They do make local stops, but you will not suffer from heat exaustion on them. The trolleys are run efficiently in Philly, but there are not enough of them, and the subways are in horrible condition. The Broad st. line's trains were replaced recently, but those were by far the oldest cars when they were running, in the mid 80s (This is what I heard,I am too young to have seen them). There were more recent cars in museums. We should be thankful that we do not have this here. Washington has a nice, clean system, but it does not go where it is needed in certain areas, and Boston's is decent, but not as good as New York's
            

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            • Subject: Re: Unequaled
            • Message Number: 755418
            • Posted by: John
            • Date: Fri Jun 6 22:14:02 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: Unequaled posted by Brian on June 06, 1997 at 21:33:12: I agree totally - the Philadelphia subway is USELESS!! They'd be better off without it - it goes NOWHERE!! Not only is the fare higher, but you have to pay and ADDITIONAL fare to transfer between lines! That's a real bitch!
              

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              • Subject: Re: Unequaled
              • Message Number: 755419
              • Posted by: John
              • Date: Fri Jun 6 22:15:22 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]Re: Unequaled posted by M.J.S. on June 06, 1997 at 18:28:00: My man, it's a shame that the redbirds are being replaced!
                

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                • Subject: Re: Unequaled
                • Message Number: 755427
                • Posted by: M.J.S.
                • Date: Sat Jun 7 13:26:52 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [6]Re: Unequaled posted by John on June 06, 1997 at 22:15:22: The best thing is to stop ordering those stupid R-142 cars and retrofit the RedBirds with the electronic crap, transverse cabs, plastic walls etc. The structure of the new cars is horrendous.
                  

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                  • Subject: Re: Unequaled
                  • Message Number: 755428
                  • Posted by: Quigebo
                  • Date: Sat Jun 7 13:35:05 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [5]Re: Unequaled posted by M.J.S. on June 07, 1997 at 13:26:52: You can't retrofit a Redbird with a transverse cab. Due to their door arrangement, it's physically impossible.
                    

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                    • Subject: Re: Unequaled
                    • Message Number: 755435
                    • Posted by: Nathan
                    • Date: Sat Jun 7 15:32:00 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [5]Re: Unequaled posted by Brian on June 06, 1997 at 21:33:12: Sometimes one line can get you where you want to go...
                      

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                      • Subject: Re: Unequaled
                      • Message Number: 755446
                      • Posted by: Jim
                      • Date: Sat Jun 7 20:44:51 1997
                        
                        In Reply to: [5]Re: Unequaled posted by M.J.S. on June 07, 1997 at 13:26:52: I suppose that you have a fix for the corrosion which is causing seperation of the car bodies from the underframes. There are many consultants and structural engineers who have said that these cars are un-repairable but I'm sure the MTA would be interesten in your fix.
                        

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                        • Subject: Re: Unequaled
                        • Message Number: 755447
                        • Posted by: Steve
                        • Date: Sat Jun 7 20:47:24 1997
                          
                          In Reply to: [5]Re: Unequaled posted by Quigebo on June 07, 1997 at 13:35:05: You may end up eating those words - sort of. The feasibility of retrofitting the R-42s with transverse cabs, is being studied right now.
                          

                          ---

                          • Subject: Re: Unequaled
                          • Message Number: 755451
                          • Posted by: Quigebo
                          • Date: Sat Jun 7 21:43:27 1997
                            
                            In Reply to: [5]Re: Unequaled posted by Steve on June 07, 1997 at 20:47:24: Wow! Really? But wouldn't the door arrangement limit the size of the cab? And I thought the R42s were getting scrapped to make way for the new R143s on the L and M.
                            

                            ---

                            • Subject: Re: Unequaled
                            • Message Number: 755459
                            • Posted by: John
                            • Date: Sun Jun 8 00:48:17 1997
                              
                              In Reply to: [5]Re: Unequaled posted by Jim on June 07, 1997 at 20:44:51: Corrosion causing the carbodies to separate from the undercarriage? Sorry, but I've never heard that before. Or is this another wild story (remember the Queensboro Bridge?). Don't take the offensive, though - I don't mean to be nasty.
                              

                              ---

                              • Subject: Re: Unequaled
                              • Message Number: 755463
                              • Posted by: Steve
                              • Date: Sun Jun 8 02:49:10 1997
                                
                                In Reply to: [5]Re: Unequaled posted by John on June 08, 1997 at 00:48:17: Sorry but that happens to be a fact. Next time you see a Redbird, look at the seam which is at the same level as the door bottoms. THATS CORROSSION.
                                

                                ---

                                • Subject: Re: Unequaled
                                • Message Number: 755464
                                • Posted by: Steve
                                • Date: Sun Jun 8 02:53:03 1997
                                  
                                  In Reply to: [5]Re: Unequaled posted by Quigebo on June 07, 1997 at 21:43:27: Right now it's only being looked at. If (when) OPTO comes to the M line, the cars will need transverse cabs. There is no practical way to use R-44s, R-46s, R-68s or R-68As on the M line. Of course It'll mean that passengers will only be able to walk between. the married cars.
                                  

                                  ---

                                  • Subject: Re: Unequaled
                                  • Message Number: 755465
                                  • Posted by: Steve
                                  • Date: Sun Jun 8 02:55:02 1997
                                    
                                    In Reply to: [5]Re: Unequaled posted by Quigebo on June 07, 1997 at 21:43:27: Right now it's only being looked at. If (when) OPTO comes to the M line, the cars will need transverse cabs. There is no practical way to use R-44s, R-46s, R-68s or R-68As on the M line. Of course It'll mean that passengers will only be able to walk between. the married cars. PS: I wouldn't bet that the 42s will go too soon. Watch the R-40S though.
                                    

                                    ---

                                    • Subject: Re: Unequaled
                                    • Message Number: 755495
                                    • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
                                    • Date: Mon Jun 9 11:37:00 1997
                                      
                                      In Reply to: [6]Re: Unequaled posted by Steve on June 08, 1997 at 02:55:02: Looking at the photos, the only impediment to a full width cab on the redbirds and R-32, 38, 40M, and 42 series is a door pocket which extends to the corner post. To adapt a full width cab it would be necessary to extend the cab wall across to the door opening and then forward to the door post. A window opening would need to be cut in both walls of the door pocket (R1-9 series cars were built like this) with the inner window interlocked to prevent that door leaf from opening. The outer window could be a drop sash which would be easy to install, the inner one could swing against the cab wall. Whether this is worth the expense to do is another question. I don't think more than 6 inches of door opening would be lost, though the total capacity would drop by 4-6 per car modified in a train. Here in Boston the 01400 series cars were built with cab doors which were hinged against the body side of the cab wall and could form either a full width cab or a small cab. In practice the small cab was never used, despite the potential to add capacity for several more passengers. There was even a forward facing seat for two on the left side. This type of design could make it possible to allow passengers to pass between cars - a cherished New York tradition.
                                      

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Thread title: Queensbridge-Queens Blvd. Line connection (755383)
Started on Thu Jun 5 17:14:08 1997, by Brian

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• Subject: Queensbridge-Queens Blvd. Line connection
• Message Number: 755383
• Posted by: Brian
• Date: Thu Jun 5 17:14:08 1997
  
  The connection of the Q line to the Queens Blvd. Line makes no sense. What was the purpose of building the line, when people are going to the same place through different tunnels. What should be done is connecting the line with the LIRR, and running an express service to Eastern Queens, where it is needed. The Q would go from 21st st. Queensbridge to the LIRR, stop at Woodside, Forest Hills, and Kew Gardens, before going to Jamaca. Then it would go out to Eastern Queens. If this is done, the LIRR trains should skip Forest Hills and Kew Gardens. Yes, this is more expensive, but it is creating a new line, with quick service into Manhattan from Eastern Queens. The track is also already there, so it would be a much lower cost than building a new line.
  

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  • Subject: Re: Queensbridge-Queens Blvd. Line connection
  • Message Number: 755385
  • Posted by: Steve
  • Date: Thu Jun 5 20:24:45 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Queensbridge-Queens Blvd. Line connection posted by Brian on June 05, 1997 at 17:14:08: Your Idea is not really do-able. First, the systems are not compaible but even if the mechanical issues could be overcome, there are the legal ones. The LIRR is, under thr Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) defined as a Class I railroad. Any system which has trackage in common with a Class I railroad, must then operate under FRA regulations, which the subway system doen not now do. The TA could no longer use motormen, who would have to be federally licensed engineers. Inspection would have to conform to FRA standards , and I guess you get the point. Don't despair though. Your idea, in a similar form is still on the drawing boards although it was shelved for the cheaper alternative already under way. The Queens Super Express would have come through the 63rd St. tunnel, through Sunnyside yard and along the LIRR ROW to Woodhaven Blvd. where it would merge with the Queens Blvd. IND. Part of the plan is still likely to be built, however. A large storage yard and diesel Mtce. facility are still being built in Sunnyside yard along with a ramp to the #7 line and a loop track for the Corona fleet.
    

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    • Subject: Re: Queensbridge-Queens Blvd. Line connection
    • Message Number: 755389
    • Posted by: Andrew Huie
    • Date: Thu Jun 5 22:16:39 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Queensbridge-Queens Blvd. Line connection posted by Steve on June 05, 1997 at 20:24:45: Why a loop track for the Corona fleet? Also why build another maintenance yard? Is the fleet actually getting bigger, or it just that places like Coney Island are equipped to deal with diesels properly?
      

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      • Subject: Re: Queensbridge-Queens Blvd. Line connection
      • Message Number: 755411
      • Posted by: Steve
      • Date: Fri Jun 6 19:56:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Queensbridge-Queens Blvd. Line connection posted by Andrew Huie on June 05, 1997 at 22:16:39: Why another Mtce. yard.? The yard would primarily service the workmotor fleet. There is no such facility in Queens at all. 36th St. in Brooklyn and Pelham Diesel shop are no longer adequate. Why a loop track for the Corona cars? The Corona cars are run, periodically to Coney Island Yard to be looped - to promote even wheel wear. The #7 line is the only one without a facility to turn it's cars around.
        

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Thread title: I Second The Motion (Was Re: Unequaled) (755393)
Started on Fri Jun 6 10:41:32 1997, by Julio Perez

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• Subject: I Second The Motion (Was Re: Unequaled)
• Message Number: 755393
• Posted by: Julio Perez
• Date: Fri Jun 6 10:41:32 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Unequaled posted by George Demas on June 05, 1997 at 15:05:08: I left NYC in '75. Even though I've lived most of my life outside the city, I consider myself a New Yorker and am VERY PROUD of being one. I am also VERY PROUD of saying the NYC subway system is the best system in the country. True, it does have its share of problems such as occasional crime, unfriendly aromas, and some unforeseen circumstances (fires and other rail troubles). But, it gets you where you need to go, and not where the politicians think you need to go to. I've lived in two other cities with a rapid transit system in the US, Atlanta and Miami. Atlanta's MARTA is clean and efficient, and does work miraculously. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same for Metrorail (Miami). So, as George tells you, APPRECIATE WHAT YOU HAVE IF YOU LIVE IN NEW YORK CITY: don't take it for granted.
  

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  • Subject: Re: I Second The Motion (Was Re: Unequaled)
  • Message Number: 755422
  • Posted by: andres perez
  • Date: Sat Jun 7 11:38:10 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]I Second The Motion (Was Re: Unequaled) posted by Julio Perez on June 06, 1997 at 10:41:32: i'm proud to be a NYorker too .i'm currently living in oklahoma and its nothing compared to ny . i love ny & miss it too! thank you & i;ll smeel you later!!!
    

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Thread title: Some Subway Route ideas (755399)
Started on Fri Jun 6 16:43:36 1997, by Brian

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• Subject: Some Subway Route ideas
• Message Number: 755399
• Posted by: Brian
• Date: Fri Jun 6 16:43:36 1997
  
  Please comment on these ideas, either if you agree or disagree 1. Culver Line On the Culver line, it takes a long time to get out to Coney Island from Manhattan. Why not run the F express from Jay St. to Church Av., and run the G to Church Avenue running local. 2. Sea Beach/West End Lines The B train gets out to 36th and 4th from Manhattan very quickly. However, it takes a year to get to Coney Island because there are so many stops. The N train takes too long to get to 59th St., then gets to Coney Island more quickly. If they put the B on the Sea Beach line, running express to 59th St., and the N local to 36th St, then on the West End Line, it would take less time to get to Coney Island. 3. Run the A trains out to Far Rockaway express on Weekends. It probably takes forever to get out to JFK and the Rockaways when it is running local. Also, give a new name to trains going out to Far Rockaway (such as the T). You should be able to know where a train is going by looking at the letter. (This is of course not significant, about the new train letter)
  

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  • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
  • Message Number: 755403
  • Posted by: M.J.S.
  • Date: Fri Jun 6 18:39:36 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Some Subway Route ideas posted by Brian on June 06, 1997 at 16:43:36: All 3 Ideas have been done (#2 sucked though)I have no idea why the F express to Kings Highway doesn't exist anymore (other than cuts).
    

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    • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
    • Message Number: 755405
    • Posted by: Brian
    • Date: Fri Jun 6 19:14:01 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Subway Route ideas posted by M.J.S. on June 06, 1997 at 18:39:36: I did not know what problems that led to. I was born in 1983. However, I know the Sea beach line gets to Coney Island more quickly, because there are fewer stops. If that did not work, how is this idea. Run the N express in Brooklyn, and the B local. Also, the N should run express in Manhattan, like the Q did, even though it would not go over the bridge.
      

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      • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
      • Message Number: 755406
      • Posted by: Lou
      • Date: Fri Jun 6 19:17:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Some Subway Route ideas posted by Brian on June 06, 1997 at 16:43:36: The only real express route left in Brooklyn is the Q. I know the N/M/B runs express 4th Avenue but that is just to spread the congestion from downtown brooklyn (IMHO) and make all local stops to their terminus. I hear from a friend that once the Manhattan Bridge southside (Broadway connection) is done AND the Canal Street Station fix AND the 63rd street tunnel extension is hooked up to Queens Blvd, the current plan (pending changes) is for the Q to run express on Broadway (I can't wait for an express on Broadway) and into queens via the 63rd street tunnel. Can't wait!!, Year 2010??
        

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        • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
        • Message Number: 755408
        • Posted by: Steve
        • Date: Fri Jun 6 19:30:40 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Some Subway Route ideas posted by Brian on June 06, 1997 at 16:43:36: The only reason the F train does not run express in Brooklyn anymore is because of the political power of former City Council Member Cuite, who represented the area around Carroll Street (a local stop) and who is now retired. I suggest we go back to a bifurcated F train format- Express F trains run express for the entire route (including Hillside Avenue, the segment between Jay Street and Church Avenue and along Macdonald Avenue) with a terminus at Coney Island). Local F trains would make all local stops in Queens and Brooklyn and terminate at Kings Highway. G trains could run local to Church Avenue to provide additional service to Park Slope and Carroll Street.
          

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          • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
          • Message Number: 755410
          • Posted by: Steve
          • Date: Fri Jun 6 19:49:52 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: Some Subway Route ideas posted by Lou on June 06, 1997 at 19:17:44: I think you mean 2001 !!!
            

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            • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
            • Message Number: 755415
            • Posted by: Lefty
            • Date: Fri Jun 6 20:51:22 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Subway Route ideas posted by Brian on June 06, 1997 at 19:14:01: where on broadway will the q run express? from what st to what st? it would be cool if someone draws a map of what the subway will be like in 2002 or something? someone wanna do it?
              

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              • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
              • Message Number: 755416
              • Posted by: Brian
              • Date: Fri Jun 6 21:12:19 1997
                
                In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Subway Route ideas posted by Lefty on June 06, 1997 at 20:51:22: Isn't the Manhattan Bridge section going to re-open in 1999? What the Q will do is run express from Canal St. to 57th St. after going over the Manhattan Bridge, and then continue to Queens. The Queens section is supposed to open in 2001. Also, they should run something express on Broadway. They should run the Q express like they did for a while from Canal to 57th St., running through the Montague St. tunnel with the N and R train. They did this a couple years ago when work was being done on the north side of the bridge. This was very useful, because the local takes a year to get from 57th st. to Canal St. However, I like the Manhattan bridge too; something should run over it. However, a poor job was done when building it.
                

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                • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
                • Message Number: 755421
                • Posted by: lee
                • Date: Sat Jun 7 02:46:53 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [6]Some Subway Route ideas posted by Brian on June 06, 1997 at 16:43:36: There are some old, abandon tracks running next to the A train as it leaves Rockaway back to its trunk line. As I understand it, it goes all the way up to Jamaica. Why not hook it into the J to provide service to Central Queens? What about utilizing the LIC spur of the LIRR from Jamaica and tying in into the 7 or the G? It hardly ever gets used.
                  

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                  • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
                  • Message Number: 755423
                  • Posted by: Dan Weissman
                  • Date: Sat Jun 7 12:53:16 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Subway Route ideas posted by lee on June 07, 1997 at 02:46:53: As a former Flushinite, I always enjoyed hte convenience of being able to take the 7 train to Manhattan. There were several improvements that I always wanted to see, though at, what?, 20 million a mile or somesuch, irt would be rather hard (although with light rail having become popular, some ideas might now be feasable). 1. The farthest the train went was Flushing, and there was talk when I was growing up of am extension to Bayside and Little Neck. Not a bad idea, though I realize the LIRR goes there. 2. If you want to get from the north side of Queens to the south side, you have to take a bus. If you want to go to Brooklyn (Ridgewood or south, I guess), you have to take a bus or go through Manhattan. did the city just run out of money and have it planned? 3. I've always believed a feeder line ti LaGuardia would be practical, especially for those who've tried getting around the airport at peak times. Might do a lot for Flushing and Corona, too, especially if it was the only airport with this type of service. I'll bet LRT would be perfect for such a scheme. 4. I always felt something was missing when you had to take a ferry or a car to Staten Island, especially with SIRT sitting on the other side. I've read the history somewhere on this web page but hey, the bad politics went down over 30 years ago. Get over it. The thing's almost half built anyway, isn't it? Of course, I'm looknig at this last one from a railfan's point if view !
                    

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                    • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
                    • Message Number: 755424
                    • Posted by: M.J.S.
                    • Date: Sat Jun 7 13:14:12 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Subway Route ideas posted by Brian on June 06, 1997 at 19:14:01: Running the Q express and them merging it in would create a bottleneck, and it wouldn't work. The N DOES run express in Brooklyn
                      

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                      • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
                      • Message Number: 755425
                      • Posted by: M.J.S.
                      • Date: Sat Jun 7 13:16:46 1997
                        
                        In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Subway Route ideas posted by Lou on June 06, 1997 at 19:17:44: The 4 and 5 run express on Eastern Parkway, the A runs express on Fulton Street and the J and Z run express on Broadway.
                        

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                        • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
                        • Message Number: 755438
                        • Posted by: Brian
                        • Date: Sat Jun 7 18:08:33 1997
                          
                          In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Subway Route ideas posted by M.J.S. on June 07, 1997 at 13:14:12: 1. They should run the N express in Brooklyn on eeekends as well as weekdays. 2. The N should run express in Manhattan.
                          

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                          • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
                          • Message Number: 755461
                          • Posted by: Steve
                          • Date: Sun Jun 8 02:40:00 1997
                            
                            In Reply to: [5]Re: Some Subway Route ideas posted by lee on June 07, 1997 at 02:46:53:
                            

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                            • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
                            • Message Number: 755462
                            • Posted by: Steve
                            • Date: Sun Jun 8 02:45:42 1997
                              
                              In Reply to: [5]Re: Some Subway Route ideas posted by lee on June 07, 1997 at 02:46:53: The LIC branch of the LIRR is being used quite heavily lately. Most, if not all of the trains that went to & from Hunters Point are now going out of LIC. The Old Rockaway Branch of the LIRR runs from Forest Hills to Liberty Junction on the A line. South of that, the ROW was purchased by the NYCT in the 50s. There have been dozens of plans for that stretch of ROW but no one has been able to show that any of the plans would have enough utility to make it worth building.
                              

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                              • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
                              • Message Number: 755477
                              • Posted by: lee
                              • Date: Sun Jun 8 15:05:29 1997
                                
                                In Reply to: [6]Some Subway Route ideas posted by Brian on June 06, 1997 at 16:43:36: Seems to me we could make efficient use of items already available. Hooking the 63 St. Line into the Queens Blvd. lines will only create more crowding and confusion, especially during rush hour, unless the station is expanded to six tracks instead of four. The 63rd St. Line should be fed into the G at 23 Ely Avenue. Existing track from the LIRR at LIC should be used to create a "byway" to central queens for the new line. In essense, the line starts in Manhattan (6th or B'Way), loops around to run on the G line at 23rd Ely and 21st Van Alst, the emerges to the new tracks to serve central Queens. People could also transfer to Vernon Jackson on the 7 line here. It would take a long time to complete, but it would boost the economic viability of the neighborhoods it serves in Queens. Also, can we please extend the 63rd st. Line to meet the station at Columbus Circle? How about using the Second Avenue line for something?
                                

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                                • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
                                • Message Number: 755478
                                • Posted by: lee
                                • Date: Sun Jun 8 15:05:39 1997
                                  
                                  In Reply to: [6]Some Subway Route ideas posted by Brian on June 06, 1997 at 16:43:36: Seems to me we could make efficient use of items already available. Hooking the 63 St. Line into the Queens Blvd. lines will only create more crowding and confusion, especially during rush hour, unless the station is expanded to six tracks instead of four. The 63rd St. Line should be fed into the G at 23 Ely Avenue. Existing track from the LIRR at LIC should be used to create a "byway" to central queens for the new line. In essense, the line starts in Manhattan (6th or B'Way), loops around to run on the G line at 23rd Ely and 21st Van Alst, the emerges to the new tracks to serve central Queens. People could also transfer to Vernon Jackson on the 7 line here. It would take a long time to complete, but it would boost the economic viability of the neighborhoods it serves in Queens. Also, can we please extend the 63rd st. Line to meet the station at Columbus Circle? How about using the Second Avenue line for something?
                                  

                                  ---

                                  • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
                                  • Message Number: 755479
                                  • Posted by: Dave Pirmann
                                  • Date: Sun Jun 8 15:31:25 1997
                                    
                                    In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Subway Route ideas posted by lee on June 08, 1997 at 15:05:29: > How about using the Second Avenue line for something? You say that like the line exists :-) (Only about 10-15 blocks were built) I agree it should be built, and in fact it's still on the "drawing board". There was some news earlier this year about re-doing the feasability and impact studies of building this line. Presumably it would (should?) be built as a deep tunnel similar to London tube lines to lessen the surface impact of construction.
                                    

                                    ---

                                    • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
                                    • Message Number: 755486
                                    • Posted by: Steve
                                    • Date: Sun Jun 8 23:18:13 1997
                                      
                                      In Reply to: [5]Re: Some Subway Route ideas posted by lee on June 08, 1997 at 15:05:39: A few problems with your plan: First, the G does not run to 23rd & Ely, it goes to Court Square. Second, that connection would create more congestion at Queens Plaza. The current plan of connecting 63rd Street to the Queens Blvd. line North (East) of Queens Plaza will not. Third, since the cut to 63rd St. will come up between the express and local tracks, routing will be more flexible. With your plan, all 63rd street trains will have to use the local tracks to an from the 36 St. station. Finally, the TA cannot use the LIRR trackage because of federal regulations (without completely revamping its operating rules) and the LIRR cannot give up that branch since it was an integral part of the deal in which the LIRR sold off its freight operation...
                                      

                                      ---

                                      • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
                                      • Message Number: 755489
                                      • Posted by: lee
                                      • Date: Mon Jun 9 04:30:54 1997
                                        
                                        In Reply to: [5]Re: Some Subway Route ideas posted by Steve on June 08, 1997 at 23:18:13: Connecting the subway north of Queens Plaza won't increase ridership at all. In fact, many prefer to go through Queens Plaza because of the flexibility it affords them. Regarding the LIRR spur, I think that, like the plan that was in place a few years ago, the MTA should build trackage along the route. The only problem is that the LIRR route goes through some desolate neighborhoods. Also, how often would Penny Bridge be utilized? Can it be joined to the M line near Metropolitan? Two things are apparent here. Central Queens needs to be taken care of, not Bayside or Horace Harding where the 7 was going to be extended to in the 70's, and the G train is somewhat usless as it is. A double -edged sword. People won't ride it because the service is awful, and the service is cut because there's no ridership. Also, the 7 train needs to be extended beyond Times Square, as does the L past 8th Avenue.
                                        

                                        ---

                                        • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
                                        • Message Number: 755498
                                        • Posted by: Quigebo
                                        • Date: Mon Jun 9 14:24:29 1997
                                          
                                          In Reply to: [5]Re: Some Subway Route ideas posted by Dave Pirmann on June 08, 1997 at 15:31:25: From what source did you hear about this news on the 2nd Av Subway? Do they have a Website? Because it sounds like very good news to me.
                                          

                                          ---

                                          • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
                                          • Message Number: 755501
                                          • Posted by: David Pirmann
                                          • Date: Mon Jun 9 18:15:14 1997
                                            
                                            In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Subway Route ideas posted by Quigebo on June 09, 1997 at 14:24:29: There were articles about it in all the major NY papers and on the NYC news channels back in the early part of the year. Sorry, don't have any concrete references and of course there's no web site. What do you think this is, London? :) --Dave
                                            

                                            ---

                                            • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
                                            • Message Number: 755544
                                            • Posted by: Steve
                                            • Date: Tue Jun 10 14:28:09 1997
                                              
                                              In Reply to: [5]Re: Some Subway Route ideas posted by lee on June 09, 1997 at 04:30:54: I don't disagree with you at all. However, the 63rd street connection is designed to increase capacity on that corridor and reduce congestion, not increase ridership. (although that might happen) If the TA wanted to increase rideship, they would complete the E line portion of the Archer Avenue Line. It was ultimately supposed to continue southward along Merrick Blvd to Francis Lewis Blvd. to Rosedale. I may have mentioned this before but one ironic result of completing this line would mean that the northern terminal on the E line would be significantly south (geographically) of the southern terminal (World trade Center). The TA would once again have to send the E to the Rockaways to correct this quirk.
                                              

                                              ---

                                              • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
                                              • Message Number: 755610
                                              • Posted by: Mark S Feinman
                                              • Date: Thu Jun 12 13:22:26 1997
                                                
                                                In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Subway Route ideas posted by David Pirmann on June 09, 1997 at 18:15:14: The person who runs the "Routes Not Built" tour from the Transit Museum, Joseph Raskin, NYCT Assistant Director of Government Affairs, told the tour group that I was with that the 2nd Ave subway is still considered an active project by NYC Transit, even now. Alternaives to building the 2nd Ave in subway are still being evaluated. --Mark
                                                

                                                ---

                                                • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas
                                                • Message Number: 756831
                                                • Posted by: Peggy Darlington
                                                • Date: Mon Aug 25 19:53:37 1997
                                                  
                                                  In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Subway Route ideas posted by Brian on June 07, 1997 at 18:08:33: 1- Run a Express in Brooklyn usign the center track of the West End El in the rush direction. Run to Queensbridge at all times except when a shuttle. 2- Run the C Train from WTC to 168 and the to Bedford park and Cocnourse during rush when D is express. 3- Run the G to Church Ave as a local and the F as express at Bergen, carroll, Church, etc. using the express tracks and lower level. 4-Run the N as Broadway express after Canal as was done with the Q when the bridge was closed for 6 months. 5- IRT: Swap South terminals for 3 and 4. Run the 3 (Still going to 148) to Utica and the 4 (Still going to Woodlawn via Lex Exp.) to New Lots like is done when 3 does not run. During rush hours in peak direction run a 6- Run the J express to/from eastern Parkway via center track. 7- Swap the North Terminals for E & F. (At nights when the B is shuttle the E would handle Queensbridge.) I have seen R-46 on the E line. NOTE: The < > is meant to be a rush hour only train like the express.
                                                  

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Thread title: Re: Welded rail (755401)
Started on Fri Jun 6 17:19:40 1997, by Brian

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• Subject: Re: Welded rail
• Message Number: 755401
• Posted by: Brian
• Date: Fri Jun 6 17:19:40 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: What are interlocking signals? posted by Nathan on June 05, 1997 at 01:49:49: What exactly do you mean by "welded"?
  

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  • Subject: Re: Welded rail
  • Message Number: 755404
  • Posted by: M.J.S.
  • Date: Fri Jun 6 18:41:43 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Welded rail posted by Brian on June 06, 1997 at 17:19:40: It's a basic vocabulary world that 3rd graders know. To weld is to use a device that would melt 2 independent pieces of metal where they touch, then the melt solidifies and the 2 pieces are now one.
    

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    • Subject: Re: Welded rail
    • Message Number: 755432
    • Posted by: Nathan
    • Date: Sat Jun 7 15:13:45 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Welded rail posted by Brian on June 06, 1997 at 17:19:40: Welded rail, you know, I was asking if the ttc subway used continuously welded rail, meaning that all the rails are welded together so that it is basically one rail. (most new rail systems weld the rails together, in TO i know GO Transit does but I wasn't sure about the ttc)
      

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      • Subject: Re: Welded rail
      • Message Number: 755442
      • Posted by: Brian W
      • Date: Sat Jun 7 19:44:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Welded rail posted by Nathan on June 07, 1997 at 15:13:45: I'm sorry, Nathan, but I have no idea if the TTC's rail is welded. If GO Transit's rail is, then I'd imagine that the TTC's would be too, since they were built around the same time.
        

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        • Subject: Re: Welded rail
        • Message Number: 755546
        • Posted by: nathan
        • Date: Tue Jun 10 14:33:11 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: Welded rail posted by Brian W on June 07, 1997 at 19:44:21: thanks. I know that the Scarberia RT uses it...
          

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Thread title: Re: Welded rail (My arent we testy) (755413)
Started on Fri Jun 6 20:03:17 1997, by Steve

---

• Subject: Re: Welded rail (My arent we testy)
• Message Number: 755413
• Posted by: Steve
• Date: Fri Jun 6 20:03:17 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Welded rail posted by M.J.S. on June 06, 1997 at 18:41:43: No need to get nasty, MJS !!! We all can't have all the answers. Welded rail is a rail segment - which can run up to and in excess of 1000 feet in length. It is made up of shorter sections which are WELDED together. This makes for a quieter, smoother ride and less maintenance for the track department. If you want to see welded rail being instaled, ride the LIRR from Jamaica to Woodside any day for the next two months.
  

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Thread title: R-142s (Lets get serious) (755414)
Started on Fri Jun 6 20:14:43 1997, by Steve

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• Subject: R-142s (Lets get serious)
• Message Number: 755414
• Posted by: Steve
• Date: Fri Jun 6 20:14:43 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: New R-142 prototype design posted by M.J.S. on June 03, 1997 at 22:45:40: Where do you get the idea that there will be batteries to power the train in an emergency? Look at it logically. TA uses batteries at 37.5 volts DC. Third rail is 600Volts DC. The average subway car needs 150 amps at 600 volts to overcome inertia. (During Accel. current goes to 450 - 500 amps.) That would mean that you'd need batteries rated at more than 3,000 Amp/Hts. just to move an empty train without lights and HVAC. Figure 6,000 Amp/hrs would be more realistic per car. Where are you going to put the passengers - err I mean the customers? By the way, currently, subway car batteries are rated at about 120 amp/hrs and weigh about 600 Lbs. without the battery box.
  

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Thread title: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (755429)
Started on Sat Jun 7 13:40:35 1997, by Mad.J.S.

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• Subject: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
• Message Number: 755429
• Posted by: Mad.J.S.
• Date: Sat Jun 7 13:40:35 1997
  
  In London the 6.5 mile Jubilee line extension with 11 modern tate of the art stations would have taken 5 years to build when completed in 1998. In New York, with it's #1 subway, it takes 7 years to build a stupid connection, several blocks long, with no stations and no practical use other than making the residents of Greenpoint Suffer. Our New R-142 cars, use less seating, and some other crap, while London's new Jubilee cars, look more comfortable, safe, colorful and Hi-tech than those damn new cars, the MTA doesn't work and needs to have its name printed on a memorial, not a transit system. NEW YORK IS NUMBER 1 AND WE NEED TO BRING OUR SUBWAY INTO A HI-TECH VERSION OF THE 1920s. If anybody doesn't agree with me, jump under an R-110.
  

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  • Subject: Re: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Message Number: 755433
  • Posted by: Nathan
  • Date: Sat Jun 7 15:17:30 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! posted by Mad.J.S. on June 07, 1997 at 13:40:35: Hmmm, great. Well, first you have to remember that in North AMerica a rail line usually takes 20 years to get by the stupid planning and empty promises. (I've waited since the early eighties for a commuter rail line in my area and it was just opened last year, and light rail was supposed to be here by the early eighties and STILL isn't here). Besides, if the cars were luxurious inside, by that I mean cloth seats commonly found on other systems, it would be more expensive for the TA because vandals would rip and slash the seats, draw on every flat surface, etc. New York cars have to be durable.
    

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    • Subject: Re: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    • Message Number: 755440
    • Posted by: M.J.S.
    • Date: Sat Jun 7 18:50:59 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! posted by Nathan on June 07, 1997 at 15:17:30: London's new Jubilee cars have Closed Circuit TV cameras to catch the vandals, does the R-142 have that? is that a no I hear? I thought so.
      

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      • Subject: Re: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      • Message Number: 755445
      • Posted by: Steve
      • Date: Sat Jun 7 20:37:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! posted by Mad.J.S. on June 07, 1997 at 13:40:35: As a fairly regular contributer to this forum, I usually ignore the provocative comments and elect to respond to the thought provoking ones. However, my friend, I'll make an exception in your pityful case. First of all, I am not a defender of the MTA and differ with much it does. Having said that, though, I must say for the record, that there is no way you can compare the London Underground and the way it's run (as a part time railroad) with the NY Subway Sytem. In the 1980s the London Transport Commission was exporting technical assistance to the NYC Transit System. Less than a dozen years later, it's all going the other way. Finally, it's the politics and the environmentalists that slow down subway construction, not the MTA. (not necessarilly a bad thing). Having said that, permit me a personal thought. What kind of asshole are you to suggest that anyone that doesn't agree with your moronic views should kill themselves. If you are serious - seek help. If not, I personally do not appreciate your sense of humor...
        

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        • Subject: Re: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
        • Message Number: 755452
        • Posted by: Nathan
        • Date: Sat Jun 7 22:09:50 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! posted by Steve on June 07, 1997 at 20:37:19: OOh, my, aren't we grouchy today. Geez, it's a viewpoint. GET A GRIP!!
          

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          • Subject: Re: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
          • Message Number: 755453
          • Posted by: Nathan
          • Date: Sat Jun 7 22:13:48 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! posted by M.J.S. on June 07, 1997 at 18:50:59: Ok, that's it. I've had it. Video Camera's? Excuse me, but think: this is New York, not London. THe video cameras in the london system are probably a vain attempt by the media to catch princess di in some promiscuous outfit. 2)A Video camera can get a description, but if a vandal realizes he is being caught on tape then he can just get off that train and get on another, before a transit policeman can get there. What is the TA going to do, put out "Wanted" signs? Get real, the TA's best bet would be to use scratch resistant glass and materials that can survive anti-graffity detergents.
            

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            • Subject: Re: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
            • Message Number: 755456
            • Posted by: John
            • Date: Sun Jun 8 00:27:11 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! posted by Nathan on June 07, 1997 at 22:13:48: How's this for thought: I don't give a shit what goes on in London. I never did, and I never will. Nothing against London. It's just that I live in NEW YORK CITY, not LONDON. I take the NEW YORK CITY SUBWAY to work, not the LONDON UNDERGROUND. So it takes 5 years to build a 7 mile line in London and 7 years to build a 5 block connection in New York. So London's subway cars are more comfortable than New York's and they have cameras. Big shit. What am I supposed to do? Jump on the roof of a subway train and do the Macarena?
              

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              • Subject: Re: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
              • Message Number: 755472
              • Posted by: Steve
              • Date: Sun Jun 8 11:52:15 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]Re: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! posted by Nathan on June 07, 1997 at 22:09:50: No, It most definitely is not a viewpoint. Perferring the redbirds over the r-142s is a viewpoint. Telling people who don't agree with your viewpoint to kill themself it's not a viewpoint, it's indicates that mental health is passing the writer by.
                

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                • Subject: Re: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                • Message Number: 755507
                • Posted by: Nathan
                • Date: Mon Jun 9 20:43:33 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [5]Re: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! posted by John on June 08, 1997 at 00:27:11: Providing you don't crush the car in the process, yes.
                  

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                  • Subject: Re: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                  • Message Number: 755685
                  • Posted by: Bingo
                  • Date: Sat Jun 14 12:09:32 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [5]Re: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! posted by Nathan on June 07, 1997 at 22:13:48: There is this new vandal-resistant material that is available now, and it works well. It resists everything, from spraypaint to magic markers to gum, whatever. It's manufactured by 3M.
                    

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                    • Subject: Re: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                    • Message Number: 755690
                    • Posted by: M.J.S.
                    • Date: Sat Jun 14 12:53:54 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [6]Re: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! posted by Bingo on June 14, 1997 at 12:09:32: Is there such a material for seat upholstery?
                      

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                      • Subject: Re: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                      • Message Number: 755750
                      • Posted by: Bingo
                      • Date: Tue Jun 17 11:21:02 1997
                        
                        In Reply to: [5]Re: DISBAND THE WASTEFUL MTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! posted by M.J.S. on June 14, 1997 at 12:53:54: Yes, if the transit company orders it. Toronto did, from Bombardier.
                        

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Thread title: Re: Route Ideas - PATH -- Warning LONG (755431)
Started on Sat Jun 7 14:43:43 1997, by David Pirmann

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• Subject: Re: Route Ideas - PATH -- Warning LONG
• Message Number: 755431
• Posted by: David Pirmann
• Date: Sat Jun 7 14:43:43 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Some Subway Route ideas posted by Brian on June 06, 1997 at 16:43:36: This talk of new routing ideas got me thinking about what's going on in NJ right now. They have started to build a light rail system in Hudson County, NJ, connecting Bayonne with Jersey City and Hoboken. From what I've heard, routing plans in Hoboken aren't firm yet, but it seems to me that the light rail is going to miss many of the residential areas of those three cities. In Bayonne it will use an existing rail ROW rather than street running where existing bus lines run now. In Jersey City it will run along Grand Street (which is on the extreme edge of a residential area with no development to the south of it except for parts of Liberty State Park), and in Hoboken they want to run it on the West Side, which completely misses the populated and quite busy east side-Washington Street corridor. Because the routes are not yet firm I won't say I'm against the plan, but I came up with some ideas myself. The PATH system would be the core of the expansion. PATH is already at capacity during rush hours so the first project would be to four-track the tubes between World Trade Center and Journal Square. (I've read that there were originally supposed to be four tracks from WTC, but two were never built. I think you can see evidence of this idea at Exchange Place, with the way the Hoboken tracks and Newark tracks merge.) The extra tracks would eliminate the merge of trains from Hoboken and trains from Newark at Exchange Place, and eliminate the merge of 33rd St. and Newark trains east of Grove St. The stations at Exchange Place and Grove Street would be made into four-track, two island platform stations. Once that is completed, I propose the following expansions of PATH service. 1. 33rd Street Line - extend the line north as originally proposed but instead of swinging east to Grand Central, swing west at 40th Street (42nd and 41st already have trains under them, the Shuttle and #7 respectively) and continue west to the Javits Center. Along with this, new stations would be built at 40th & 6th and 40th & 8th, as well as a new terminal at Javits, with transfers to the Subway built at 40th & 6th (serving the B-D-F-Q-7) and at 40th & 8th (serving the A-C-E-1-2-3-N-R-S-7 lines in the Times Square Complex). 2. Ease the transfer with the New York City Subway at 14th, 23rd, 33rd, 40th & 6th, 40th & 8th, and World Trade Center, by using the same AFC card and perhaps a discount fare for transferring. 3. Extend the Hoboken line north underneath Washington Street to Weehawken. This would serve the high-density east side of Hoboken corridor. A new station could be built at the foot of Washington Street with a passageway to the NJT terminal. Stations would be built in Hoboken at 5th St, 10th St, 14th St, and at Lincoln Harbor, Weehawken. 4. In North Bergen, Jersey City, and Bayonne, build a Kennedy Boulevard subway in two halves, meeting at Journal Square. One branch from Journal Square would head north to North Bergen, and another south serving the south side of Jersey City, and Bayonne, running along Kennedy Blvd. 5. From Bayonne, a tunnel could be built parallel to the Bayonne Bridge into Staten Island, with two branches-- one looping up to the North Shore line and terminating at St. George, and another "Cross Island Subway" terminating at Tottenville SIRT station. With some work, this new line from Staten Island to WTC via Bayonne and Journal Square could be built to SIRT clearances and the SIRT lines could run north from Tottenville via Cross Island Subway or St. George/North Shore directly to World Trade Center. 6. And finally, a southward extension from Newark Penn Station serving the Newark Airport Monorail station and Elizabeth, NJ downtown area. The map below illustrates the new lines. In this plan, the proposed light rail plan would be abandoned. [INLINE] Oh well. A fantasy to be sure, but those are my two cents^H^H^H^H^Hdollars. --Dave
  

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  • Subject: Re: Route Ideas - PATH -- Warning LONG
  • Message Number: 755434
  • Posted by: Nathan
  • Date: Sat Jun 7 15:29:06 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Route Ideas - PATH -- Warning LONG posted by David Pirmann on June 07, 1997 at 14:43:43: The Hudson LRT was probably the brainchild of "New Urbanists" trying to increase the livibility of our cities. The LRT was probably chosen in favour of a subway because it is a more visible investment in transit infrastructure (Don't ask why that amounts to anything). Anyway, New Urbanists are trying to pedestrianize the cities in which they live and see Light Rail as the best alternative, seeing as it seems to "co-exist" with pedestrians, etc. I think it is a bit of bologne, but oh well. One reason for the Light Rail line missing many residential areas could be because they are trying to do what is being done in Portland, Ore; Use light rail as a development catalyst and a land use tool. For instance, in Portland the new Westside MAX LRT runs through a lot of farmers fields (as well as a three mile tunnel with a station in the middle, 260 ft below ground). This is giving the city of portland a chance to zone transit-friendly developments adjacent to light rail stations, (in theory) not only boosting ridership but promoting pedestrianization. The people behind the Hudson LRT might be trying to do what has been done in Portland, and many other cities are doing it as well. (I'm being bombarded with government promises about 2 lrt lines in my area, being used for that specific purpose, promote more compact cities and higher density/pedestrian orientated developments. Now, to see how effective the Hudson LRT is, only time will tell.
    

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    • Subject: Re: Route Ideas - PATH -- Warning LONG
    • Message Number: 755441
    • Posted by: Joshua Caesar
    • Date: Sat Jun 7 19:42:53 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Route Ideas - PATH -- Warning LONG posted by David Pirmann on June 07, 1997 at 14:43:43: David Pirmann wrote: "1. 33rd Street Line - extend the line north as originally proposed but instead of swinging east to Grand Central, swing west at 40th Street (42nd and 41st already have trains under them, the Shuttle and #7 respectively) and continue west to the Javits Center.1. 33rd Street Line - extend the line north as originally proposed but instead of swinging east to Grand Central, swing west at 40th Street (42nd and 41st already have trains under them, the Shuttle and #7 respectively) and continue west to the Javits Center." A great idea, but the New York City subway needs access to Javits as well. Maybe the seven train could be extended to Javits, with Path merging in with the line, making for a joint PATH-NYCT station at the Javits. With both systems using the same farecard, a station like this would be beneficial to riders of both systems, and a transfer could be built between PATH and NYC subway at Times Square. However, having the two systems integrated like this would require the overcoming of many political obstacles, but one can always hope. JC
      

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Thread title: R-10 (755443)
Started on Sat Jun 7 19:59:00 1997, by Zack

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• Subject: R-10
• Message Number: 755443
• Posted by: Zack
• Date: Sat Jun 7 19:59:00 1997
  
  Was there ever an R-10? dod it look like thr current redbirds? were they ever paintede in the current redbird scheme? ad did it run on?
  

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  • Subject: Re: R-10
  • Message Number: 755444
  • Posted by: Steve
  • Date: Sat Jun 7 20:22:33 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]R-10 posted by Zack on June 07, 1997 at 19:59:00: There was an R-10. It was not painted like a redbird. It ran on the A & C lines. They're all gone now.
    

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    • Subject: Re: R-10
    • Message Number: 755458
    • Posted by: David Pirmann
    • Date: Sun Jun 8 00:39:29 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: R-10 posted by Steve on June 07, 1997 at 20:22:33: See [7]R10 Page. They were painted in a variety of colors, including two-tone grey with orange stripe, sky blue and off-white (based on the World's Fair scheme), and some of them were even in a bright red but I don't know how many cars were like this. Late in life they were painted in a dark navy blue. I have some good R-10 slides that I hope to get on the site next week.
      

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      • Subject: Re: R-10
      • Message Number: 755469
      • Posted by: Pat Villani
      • Date: Sun Jun 8 06:14:34 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: R-10 posted by David Pirmann on June 08, 1997 at 00:39:29: Whoa! What's the story behind 3192! I've always had a soft spot for the R10 because I rode it for years through high school and freshman year of college. I thought I knew everything about them -- until I looked at your R10 page.
        

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        • Subject: Re: R-10
        • Message Number: 755471
        • Posted by: Steve
        • Date: Sun Jun 8 11:48:36 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: R-10 posted by David Pirmann on June 08, 1997 at 00:39:29: I must admit that I had never seen car 3192 with the R-42 bonnet before. I didn't even know it existed, however, I am curious to find out what ever became of it. I'll try to check ASAP.
          

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          • Subject: Re: R-10
          • Message Number: 755474
          • Posted by: John
          • Date: Sun Jun 8 12:08:06 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: R-10 posted by Pat Villani on June 08, 1997 at 06:14:34: The R-10 with the R-42 front was experimented in 1978, but nothing came of it. The Transit Authority also took in R-16 and gave it a new look in 1979, but that never materialized either. I don't know if the TA did that kind of thing to any other cars.
            

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            • Subject: Re: R-10
            • Message Number: 755482
            • Posted by: Steve
            • Date: Sun Jun 8 20:13:41 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: R-10 posted by John on June 08, 1997 at 12:08:06: I do remember seeing the R-16 out at 207th Street Yard in the early 80s.
              

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              • Subject: Re: R-10
              • Message Number: 755490
              • Posted by: Frank Gatazka
              • Date: Mon Jun 9 07:34:42 1997
                
                In Reply to: [6]R-10 posted by Zack on June 07, 1997 at 19:59:00: The R-10 was the first post war car created by the then Board of Transportation. Four hundred units, built by American Car and Foundry (ACF) were put into service on the "A" route, where, except for a short time in the late fifties, they remained until near retirement when they also ran on the "C" and "G" lines. They are significant historically, since they were the first cars equipped with the "SMEE" (Straight air Motor-Emergency Electric) brake schedule which blended dynamic braking with straight air brakes. All other R types up to the R-44 used this brake schedule. When R-7A 1575 was involved in an accident, the car was rebuilt by ACF as the prototype R-10 body, which used welded construction as opposed to the hundreds of rivets on the prewar cars. 1575 did retain the R-7A mechanicals however, and could only run with it's own kind (R1-9's). When I was young, I remember being confused as to how a R-10 could run with R-9's! Of course, I didn't know the history then. You can see 1575 which reposes at the Transit Museum in Brooklyn. Also there is an R-12/14 which is the IRT (51') version of the 60' R-10. Like Mr. Villani, I too rode the R-10's back and forth to high school, however I preferred the R-9's which ran on the "A" line to the Rockaways. Many times I bypassed a train of R-10's from Lefferts Blvd. so as to be able to ride a train of R-9's from Far Rockaway or Rockaway Park! If you can, pick up a copy of "New York City Subway Cars" by Greller which shows the R-10's in all of their varied color schemes.
                

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                • Subject: Re: R-10
                • Message Number: 755491
                • Posted by: Frank Gatazka
                • Date: Mon Jun 9 07:41:14 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [6]Re: R-10 posted by David Pirmann on June 08, 1997 at 00:39:29: I am familiar with the delivery (two tone gray with orange stripes), the early sixties red, and the pseudo Worlds Fair scheme of turquoise and ivory. I am even aware of the infamous "Pizza" scheme that adorned 3081! I am NOT AWARE of a navy blue scheme. I remember the cars getting the Rehab GREEN scheme with silver roofs and black sign bonnets and anticlimbers just before retirement. When did they wear NAVY BLUE?
                  

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                  • Subject: Re: R-10
                  • Message Number: 755492
                  • Posted by: Wayne Johnson
                  • Date: Mon Jun 9 09:46:43 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [5]Re: R-10 posted by Steve on June 08, 1997 at 11:48:36: According to Greller's NYC Subway Cars - R-10 #3192 was scrapped. I also have a vague memory of #3192 being used for another experiment - Is this the car the TA extended to 75 feet by adding in a 15ft. in the late 1960's?
                    

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                    • Subject: Re: R-10
                    • Message Number: 755494
                    • Posted by: Charles Fiori
                    • Date: Mon Jun 9 11:17:22 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [5]Re: R-10 posted by Frank Gatazka on June 09, 1997 at 07:34:42: I actually remember riding an R-10 (in summer, no less) on the 'D' and also along Queens Blvd. when R-46 problems caused radical service changes and fleet re-assignments. Yuck!
                      

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                      • Subject: Re: R-10
                      • Message Number: 755500
                      • Posted by: David Pirmann
                      • Date: Mon Jun 9 18:07:48 1997
                        
                        In Reply to: [6]Re: R-10 posted by Frank Gatazka on June 09, 1997 at 07:41:14: Take a look at [7]this picture which was taken in 1993. That might be a dark green but it looks blue to me. It shows car 3184 in Coney Island Yard. --Dave
                        

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                        • Subject: Re: R-10
                        • Message Number: 755503
                        • Posted by: Steve
                        • Date: Mon Jun 9 20:13:01 1997
                          
                          In Reply to: [5]Re: R-10 posted by Wayne Johnson on June 09, 1997 at 09:46:43: According to the TA book, "Revenue and Non-Revenue Car Drawings", the two stretch cars, designated as XC375 and XC875 were built from scrap cars 7509 and 5781. There is no mention in the book of car #3192 having been 'stretched'. However, the book is by no means complete.
                          

                          ---

                          • Subject: Re: R-10
                          • Message Number: 755518
                          • Posted by: Andrew Huie
                          • Date: Mon Jun 9 22:38:50 1997
                            
                            In Reply to: [6]Re: R-10 posted by Frank Gatazka on June 09, 1997 at 07:34:42: My earliest memories of the R10 were when they still had the turquoise and off-white scheme on the A train. The only other cars that ran on the A train at the time were the R42's (the R1-9's were scattered on a lot of other lines by then). Because of their "rougher" (compared to the round-roofed, more "refined" cars like the R30) and less shiny (compared to the R32, 38, etc.) exterior and interior, they really came to symbolize for me the speed and dominance of the A train over the shorter, slower locals that ran next to them. Because of their age, I was never to crazy about them, but when they went express, their clickety-clack was the best! I was always mystified why they were retired so soon after their overhaul. Seemed like a waste.
                            

                            ---

                            • Subject: Re: R-10
                            • Message Number: 755523
                            • Posted by: Frank Gatazka
                            • Date: Tue Jun 10 07:33:21 1997
                              
                              In Reply to: [6]Re: R-10 posted by David Pirmann on June 09, 1997 at 18:07:48: Thanks for the nice photo! This is clearly the "Rehab" GREEN scheme, albeit severely weathered and chalked. This brings up an important point about color schemes, particularly to those, like myself who model the subways. The color is ALWAYS in the eye of the beholder! I recall once being at the Brooklyn Transit Museum when two gentleman were walking up the stairs from the lower (trackside) level where the restored subway cars are displayed. Their conversation revolved around the fact that "...those cars were NEVER painted those colors! They were always BLACK!". To these men, the cars appeared black in service, which was not far from the truth in the days when the TA did not wash the exteriors of the cars. As Joe Frank of model El fame says, "all subway cars take on the protective color of ground burrowing animals!". I think that someone in these postings said it best. That is, nothing will create more "chatter" than issues regarding color schemes! By the way, I think we both forgot the MTA scheme of platinum mist and blue that the R-10's and other R types wore in the seventies. Thanks again for sharing the pix.
                              

                              ---

                              • Subject: Re: R-10
                              • Message Number: 755527
                              • Posted by: Wayne Johnson
                              • Date: Tue Jun 10 09:46:37 1997
                                
                                In Reply to: [5]Re: R-10 posted by Steve on June 09, 1997 at 20:13:01: I should have explained myself thoroughly last time. I mean to imply that Greller's book mentioned anything about the test stretch cars. It's been quite some time now, but I believe it was in "Uptown Downtown" by Stan Fischler (Hope I got the author's name correct).
                                

                                ---

                                • Subject: Re: R-10
                                • Message Number: 755530
                                • Posted by: Julio Perez
                                • Date: Tue Jun 10 10:13:43 1997
                                  
                                  In Reply to: [6]Re: R-10 posted by Steve on June 09, 1997 at 20:13:01: I suppose those modified R-10s were little more than an exercise in modifying the front ends of the cars. It would seem no interior reworking was done to them, particularly since their narrow tops allowed little room to install ventilation system improvements (e.g., air conditioning)...?
                                  

                                  ---

                                  • Subject: Re: R-10
                                  • Message Number: 755590
                                  • Posted by: M.J.S.
                                  • Date: Wed Jun 11 20:08:10 1997
                                    
                                    In Reply to: [6]Re: R-10 posted by Andrew Huie on June 09, 1997 at 22:38:50: They were overhauled for temporary rebuild duty, which means that they would fill the gap left in service when cars are sent for REAL overhaul. BTW, how did the windows on the R10 work?
                                    

                                    ---

                                    • Subject: Re: R-10
                                    • Message Number: 755631
                                    • Posted by: WILLIAM A. PADRON
                                    • Date: Thu Jun 12 17:29:10 1997
                                      
                                      In Reply to: [5]Re: R-10 posted by Steve on June 08, 1997 at 20:13:41: To answer certain questions about the R-10 cars in general posted on this Sub-Talk Page: 1. During 1962-63, only six R-10 cars (1822/2969, 1850/2997, 3099, 3101, 3137 and 3342) were painted a bright tartar red like the R-29/33's. No further repainting on the other units occurred until the introduction of the navy blue/white scheme of 1965-66. 2. The R-10's side windows were opened and closed much the same way as the other cars, except they were each one long solid panel that didn't go all the way down. 3. Car 3192 had a new R-42 type front installed on that car in early 1975 to be the prototype car for an overhaul complete rebuilding of the fleet to be done with modern R-44 interiors and air-conditioning. The unit was scrapped in 1980 inside Coney Island Yard. 4. The R-10's various paint schemes were as follows: two-tone grey/ orange (1948-circa 1967), tartar red (1962-circa 1966 on those six cars mentioned in part one), navy blue/white with and without blue stripe (1965- circa 1970), silver/blue (circa 1970-1988) and dark green with silver roof and black front hood (1985-1989 on the GOH Westinghouse units only). 5. The only remaining R-10 cars in existence are: #3184 (restored "museum" car at Coney Island Yard) and #3189 (R.C.I. Yard-School Training Car at Pitkin Yard). The last R-10 car to be removed from NYCTA property was #3081, which was the only surviving G.E.-equipped unit in existence. Also, #1575 (the prototype car rebuilt from an R-7A in 1947) is at the New York Transit Museum in Brooklyn. The bulk of the scrapping of the remain- ing R-10 cars ended in June 1990. I should all about the R-10 cars in particular...they are my all-time favorite New York City subway car fleet, and I still miss them to this day!!! Sincerely, WILLIAM A. PADRON ERA #5783 New York, NY
                                      

                                      ---

                                      • Subject: Re: R-10
                                      • Message Number: 755632
                                      • Posted by: WILLIAM A. PADRON
                                      • Date: Thu Jun 12 17:29:46 1997
                                        
                                        In Reply to: [5]Re: R-10 posted by Steve on June 08, 1997 at 20:13:41: To answer certain questions about the R-10 cars in general posted on this Sub-Talk Page: 1. During 1962-63, only six R-10 cars (1822/2969, 1850/2997, 3099, 3101, 3137 and 3342) were painted a bright tartar red like the R-29/33's. No further repainting on the other units occurred until the introduction of the navy blue/white scheme of 1965-66. 2. The R-10's side windows were opened and closed much the same way as the other cars, except they were each one long solid panel that didn't go all the way down. 3. Car 3192 had a new R-42 type front installed on that car in early 1975 to be the prototype car for an overhaul complete rebuilding of the fleet to be done with modern R-44 interiors and air-conditioning. The unit was scrapped in 1980 inside Coney Island Yard. 4. The R-10's various paint schemes were as follows: two-tone grey/ orange (1948-circa 1967), tartar red (1962-circa 1966 on those six cars mentioned in part one), navy blue/white with and without blue stripe (1965- circa 1970), silver/blue (circa 1970-1988) and dark green with silver roof and black front hood (1985-1989 on the GOH Westinghouse units only). 5. The only remaining R-10 cars in existence are: #3184 (restored "museum" car at Coney Island Yard) and #3189 (R.C.I. Yard-School Training Car at Pitkin Yard). The last R-10 car to be removed from NYCTA property was #3081, which was the only surviving G.E.-equipped unit in existence. Also, #1575 (the prototype car rebuilt from an R-7A in 1947) is at the New York Transit Museum in Brooklyn. The bulk of the scrapping of the remain- ing R-10 cars ended in June 1990. I should all about the R-10 cars in particular...they are my all-time favorite New York City subway car fleet, and I still miss them to this day!!! Sincerely, WILLIAM A. PADRON ERA #5783 New York, NY
                                        

                                        ---

                                        • Subject: Re: R-10
                                        • Message Number: 755665
                                        • Posted by: Dave Pirmann
                                        • Date: Fri Jun 13 15:29:01 1997
                                          
                                          In Reply to: [6]Re: R-10 posted by WILLIAM A. PADRON on June 12, 1997 at 17:29:10: Hi Bill, Thanks for the informative summary. I hope you don't mind that I put some of the information you posted onto the R10 roster page. I would have emailed you directly but you didn't post your email address. --Dave
                                          

                                          ---

                                          • Subject: Re: R-10
                                          • Message Number: 755671
                                          • Posted by: WILLIAM A. PADRON
                                          • Date: Fri Jun 13 17:14:43 1997
                                            
                                            In Reply to: [5]Re: R-10 posted by Dave Pirmann on June 13, 1997 at 15:29:01: To Dave: You have my permission to use any information I submit from the SubTalk Page to update on data of the R-10's, my all-time favorite New York City subway car fleet. However, I do not have a current e-mail address at this time...but I am working on it soon! For a better clarification, these facts should be really noted: 1. The R-10's sported a "turguiose" [sky] blue and white with and without a white belt paint scheme from circa 1965 to 1970. 2. Car #3192 was never "stretched" to be a prototype 75-foot model; R-1 car #192 however was!!! 3. The car side windows opened and operated in the same manner as the R-1/9 to R-27/30 units, but they were each one long glass panel didn't open all the way down. 4. The R-10's GOH rehabilation program between December 1984 to February 1986 was simply an interim measure to get the entire car fleet in a non-graffiti state and await the ultimate arrival and replacement by the R-68/68A's based to the satisfaction of the NYCTA. The rehabilation of each one of the 110 R-10's was done in-house at a cost of $65,000. I will keep you and this Sub-Talk Page posted on any R-10 information that needs to be answered in the future. Sincerely, WILLIAM A. PADRON E.R.A. #5783 New York, NY
                                            

                                            ---

                                            • Subject: Re: R-10
                                            • Message Number: 755672
                                            • Posted by: WILLIAM A. PADRON
                                            • Date: Fri Jun 13 17:15:06 1997
                                              
                                              In Reply to: [5]Re: R-10 posted by Dave Pirmann on June 13, 1997 at 15:29:01: To Dave: You have my permission to use any information I submit from the SubTalk Page to update on data of the R-10's, my all-time favorite New York City subway car fleet. However, I do not have a current e-mail address at this time...but I am working on it soon! For a better clarification, these facts should be really noted: 1. The R-10's sported a "turguiose" [sky] blue and white with and without a white belt paint scheme from circa 1965 to 1970. 2. Car #3192 was never "stretched" to be a prototype 75-foot model; R-1 car #192 however was!!! 3. The car side windows opened and operated in the same manner as the R-1/9 to R-27/30 units, but they were each one long glass panel didn't open all the way down. 4. The R-10's GOH rehabilation program between December 1984 to February 1986 was simply an interim measure to get the entire car fleet in a non-graffiti state and await the ultimate arrival and replacement by the R-68/68A's based to the satisfaction of the NYCTA. The rehabilation of each one of the 110 R-10's was done in-house at a cost of $65,000. I will keep you and this Sub-Talk Page posted on any R-10 information that needs to be answered in the future. Sincerely, WILLIAM A. PADRON E.R.A. #5783 New York, NY
                                              

                                              ---

                                              • Subject: Re: R-10
                                              • Message Number: 755673
                                              • Posted by: WILLIAM A. PADRON
                                              • Date: Fri Jun 13 17:16:24 1997
                                                
                                                In Reply to: [5]Re: R-10 posted by Dave Pirmann on June 13, 1997 at 15:29:01: To Dave: You have my permission to use any information I submit from the SubTalk Page to update on data of the R-10's, my all-time favorite New York City subway car fleet. However, I do not have a current e-mail address at this time...but I am working on it soon! For a better clarification, these facts should be really noted: 1. The R-10's sported a "turguiose" [sky] blue and white with and without a white belt paint scheme from circa 1965 to 1970. 2. Car #3192 was never "stretched" to be a prototype 75-foot model; R-1 car #192 however was!!! 3. The car side windows opened and operated in the same manner as the R-1/9 to R-27/30 units, but they were each one long glass panel didn't open all the way down. 4. The R-10's GOH rehabilation program between December 1984 to February 1986 was simply an interim measure to get the entire car fleet in a non-graffiti state and await the ultimate arrival and replacement by the R-68/68A's based to the satisfaction of the NYCTA. The rehabilation of each one of the 110 R-10's was done in-house at a cost of $65,000. I will keep you and this Sub-Talk Page posted on any R-10 information that needs to be answered in the future. Sincerely, WILLIAM A. PADRON E.R.A. #5783 New York, NY
                                                

                                                ---

                                                • Subject: Re: R-10
                                                • Message Number: 755687
                                                • Posted by: M.J.S.
                                                • Date: Sat Jun 14 12:30:31 1997
                                                  
                                                  In Reply to: [6]Re: R-10 posted by WILLIAM A. PADRON on June 13, 1997 at 17:16:24: This is completely off topic, but there are free E-mail services: 1. Juno: [7]www.juno.com (This requires software downlaod but does NOT need an internet connection) 2. Hotmail: [8]www.hotmail.com (This needs a web browser because it is accessed directly from the web) 3. Geocities: [9]www.geocities.com (This isn't really a E-mail service, it's a free webpage(s) service so you need to maintain a webpage or a set of them. Another Catch: You need a working E-mail outside of GeoCities to be and stay a member, so this probably isn't for you)
                                                  

                                                  ---

                                                  • Subject: Re: R-10
                                                  • Message Number: 755720
                                                  • Posted by: Gary Jacobi
                                                  • Date: Mon Jun 16 16:27:45 1997
                                                    
                                                    In Reply to: [5]Re: R-10 posted by WILLIAM A. PADRON on June 12, 1997 at 17:29:10: I have a question for you. I too fondly remember the r-10's, but cannot recall one detail. What was the original floor covering? I recall that it was rather striking, and that late 50's efforts to refinish it were a disaster; looking something like cheap driveway resealer.
                                                    

                                                    ---

                                                    • Subject: Re: R-10
                                                    • Message Number: 755722
                                                    • Posted by: WILLIAM A. PADRON
                                                    • Date: Mon Jun 16 16:50:17 1997
                                                      
                                                      In Reply to: [5]Re: R-10 posted by Gary Jacobi on June 16, 1997 at 16:27:45: Based upon my personal recollection of the R-10's, the original floors were of a substance covering over the underframe known as "tucolith" with very decorative steel-like groove patterns that were shaped like diamonds around the center stanchions (poles) and double lines surrounding the passenger seating. After the normal wear and tear on the floor, it would be subject to repainting or surfacing (a normal practice that even continues today on the museum cars R-7A #1575 and R-12 #5760). Starting with the repainting of the R-10's to the "turquoise" blue/white scheme of 1965-66, the cars' floors were starting to have either new checkboard tiles (the first known car was #3331) or whole grey linoleum covering (which the NYCTA obviously prefer). During the 1984-1986 GOH Rehabilitation Project of the selected 110 Westinghouse units repainted in the "Green Hornet" scheme, all floors had received a new beige linoleum covering design. -William A. Padron
                                                      

                                                      ---

                                                      • Subject: Re: R-10
                                                      • Message Number: 755723
                                                      • Posted by: WILLIAM A. PADRON
                                                      • Date: Mon Jun 16 16:50:41 1997
                                                        
                                                        In Reply to: [5]Re: R-10 posted by Gary Jacobi on June 16, 1997 at 16:27:45: Based upon my personal recollection of the R-10's, the original floors were of a substance covering over the underframe known as "tucolith" with very decorative steel-like groove patterns that were shaped like diamonds around the center stanchions (poles) and double lines surrounding the passenger seating. After the normal wear and tear on the floor, it would be subject to repainting or surfacing (a normal practice that even continues today on the museum cars R-7A #1575 and R-12 #5760). Starting with the repainting of the R-10's to the "turquoise" blue/white scheme of 1965-66, the cars' floors were starting to have either new checkboard tiles (the first known car was #3331) or whole grey linoleum covering (which the NYCTA obviously prefer). During the 1984-1986 GOH Rehabilitation Project of the selected 110 Westinghouse units repainted in the "Green Hornet" scheme, all floors had received a new beige linoleum covering design. -William A. Padron
                                                        

                                                        ---

                                                        • Subject: Re: R-10
                                                        • Message Number: 755758
                                                        • Posted by: WILLIAM A. PADRON
                                                        • Date: Tue Jun 17 17:18:48 1997
                                                          
                                                          In Reply to: [6]Re: R-10 posted by Dave Pirmann on June 13, 1997 at 15:29:01: Thank you very much in sharing your interest of putting information of the R-10's, my all-time favorite New York subway car fleet. To repeat, you have my permission to use any data and facts about the R-10's that I submit to the SubTalk page without any problems at this time...even to update the R-10 web page in the car roster section. The E-mail address is, for the record, wapadron@hotmail.com. Sincerely, WILLIAM A. PADRON
                                                          

                                                          ---

                                                          • Subject: Re: R-10
                                                          • Message Number: 755759
                                                          • Posted by: WILLIAM A. PADRON
                                                          • Date: Tue Jun 17 17:19:11 1997
                                                            
                                                            In Reply to: [6]Re: R-10 posted by Dave Pirmann on June 13, 1997 at 15:29:01: Thank you very much in sharing your interest of putting information of the R-10's, my all-time favorite New York subway car fleet. To repeat, you have my permission to use any data and facts about the R-10's that I submit to the SubTalk page without any problems at this time...even to update the R-10 web page in the car roster section. The E-mail address is, for the record, wapadron@hotmail.com. Sincerely, WILLIAM A. PADRON
                                                            

                                                            ---

                                                            • Subject: Re: R-10
                                                            • Message Number: 755760
                                                            • Posted by: WILLIAM A. PADRON
                                                            • Date: Tue Jun 17 17:37:40 1997
                                                              
                                                              In Reply to: [6]Re: R-10 posted by WILLIAM A. PADRON on June 13, 1997 at 17:14:43: There is some clarification that has to be made on certain previous topics on the R-10's to get a much better picture: 1. In terms of the original "tucolith" floor design, the chemical compound of the covering was made of magnesite placed over the aluminum truss plate underframe. This type of design would be subject to wear and tear, and require repainting and resurfacing in whole or "patches" (especially around the areas near the door panels). 2. The technical terms for the R-10's side window type by the NYCTA's definition is "single drop-outside hung" (this also applies to the IRT R-12/14/15's). 3. In terms of train operation and electrical controls, the R-10's are only compatible with other R-10's and newer equipment up to the R-42 units. By the way, cars 1803-1827 (renumbered as 2950-2974 in 1970), 3000-3049 and 3100-3224 have Westinghouse motors and controls, while cars 1828-1852 (renumbered as 2975-2999 in 1970), 3050-3099 and 3225-3349 have General Electric motors and controls...as they were originally built and delivered. 4. The "actual final cost" of each R-10 car when brand new was more than $77,300 apiece in 1948-49. The GOH Rehabilitation project of the selected 110 Westinghouse cars came in at $65,000 apiece (this was during between December, 1984 and February, 1986). Sincerely, WILLIAM A. PADRON
                                                              

                                                              ---

                                                              • Subject: Re: R-10
                                                              • Message Number: 755761
                                                              • Posted by: WILLIAM A. PADRON
                                                              • Date: Tue Jun 17 17:37:59 1997
                                                                
                                                                In Reply to: [6]Re: R-10 posted by WILLIAM A. PADRON on June 13, 1997 at 17:14:43: There is some clarification that has to be made on certain previous topics on the R-10's to get a much better picture: 1. In terms of the original "tucolith" floor design, the chemical compound of the covering was made of magnesite placed over the aluminum truss plate underframe. This type of design would be subject to wear and tear, and require repainting and resurfacing in whole or "patches" (especially around the areas near the door panels). 2. The technical terms for the R-10's side window type by the NYCTA's definition is "single drop-outside hung" (this also applies to the IRT R-12/14/15's). 3. In terms of train operation and electrical controls, the R-10's are only compatible with other R-10's and newer equipment up to the R-42 units. By the way, cars 1803-1827 (renumbered as 2950-2974 in 1970), 3000-3049 and 3100-3224 have Westinghouse motors and controls, while cars 1828-1852 (renumbered as 2975-2999 in 1970), 3050-3099 and 3225-3349 have General Electric motors and controls...as they were originally built and delivered. 4. The "actual final cost" of each R-10 car when brand new was more than $77,300 apiece in 1948-49. The GOH Rehabilitation project of the selected 110 Westinghouse cars came in at $65,000 apiece (this was during between December, 1984 and February, 1986). Sincerely, WILLIAM A. PADRON
                                                                

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                                                                • Subject: Re: R-10
                                                                • Message Number: 755762
                                                                • Posted by: Gary Jacobi
                                                                • Date: Tue Jun 17 18:13:15 1997
                                                                  
                                                                  In Reply to: [5]Re: R-10 posted by WILLIAM A. PADRON on June 17, 1997 at 17:37:40: Thanks for the refresher course on the flooring. As soon as I read your description, I could almost SEE it again! It contained a gritty material that caused it to almost sparkle. That is the aspect of it that was missing in all the refinishing attempts. It reminds me of all the great first generation diesel paint schemes that were replaced by b paint in the late fifties. Maybe those weren't such great times after all. By the way, you are having the same trouble sending multiple followups that I had at first. There is a 5-10 second delay before a followup is accepted that looks exactly the same as if you didn't hit Trust me, wait longer for confirmation, and you won't send multiples any more.
                                                                  

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Thread title: Idea #4 (755449)
Started on Sat Jun 7 21:04:19 1997, by Steve

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• Subject: Idea #4
• Message Number: 755449
• Posted by: Steve
• Date: Sat Jun 7 21:04:19 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Subway Route ideas posted by Dan Weissman on June 07, 1997 at 12:53:16: As for a link to the SIRT or whatever they are calling it these days, it was planned and almost done. Robert Moses (the master Builder of NY) dangled the carrot under NYs nose to get the lower level of the Verrazzanno Narrows Bridge built. The R-line from 95thSt & 4th ave, then claaed the 4th Ave. LCL was to be extended over the bridge. However, Moses hated mass transit and scuttled the plans as soon as the lower deck was added to the plans.
  

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Thread title: Welded Rail - Facts (755450)
Started on Sat Jun 7 21:19:06 1997, by Steve

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• Subject: Welded Rail - Facts
• Message Number: 755450
• Posted by: Steve
• Date: Sat Jun 7 21:19:06 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Welded rail posted by Nathan on June 07, 1997 at 15:13:45: Welded rail cannot be continuous indefinitely for two reasons. First - Expansion and contraction due to heat and cold would cause buckling during temp. extremes. Second - The longest that a segment of rail can be is equal to the length of the signal block in which it is being used. In order for the signals to detect the presence of trains, insulated joints (IJs) must be placed at either end of a signal block.
  

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  • Subject: Re: Welded Rail - Facts
  • Message Number: 755455
  • Posted by: Nathan
  • Date: Sat Jun 7 22:26:54 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Welded Rail - Facts posted by Steve on June 07, 1997 at 21:19:06: Ok. What if the system uses moving-block signalling? huh? Second of all, welded rail in an extremely temperate area (ie: Pacific Northwest) would not buckle and kink with temperature changes, it is too temperate! Phhhhhhhhbbbbbb. Mr factual! Hmph!
    

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    • Subject: Re: Welded Rail - Facts
    • Message Number: 755466
    • Posted by: Steve
    • Date: Sun Jun 8 02:58:29 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Welded Rail - Facts posted by Nathan on June 07, 1997 at 22:26:54: Okay - the railroad industry agrees with you. Welded rail will, from this day hence, be used ONLY in temperate areas.
      

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      • Subject: Re: Welded Rail - Facts
      • Message Number: 755480
      • Posted by: Nathan
      • Date: Sun Jun 8 16:50:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Welded Rail - Facts posted by Steve on June 08, 1997 at 02:58:29: Ok. Here you have it. Now, continuously welded rail should be possible if the rails are held in place with spring type clips, the rail can expand and contract yet it is still held in place. To the signal argument, block signals would be irrelevant if the system uses moving block signalling (ie SELTRAC). Therefore, insulated gaps in the rails at the end of each block would not be required. (i know of three cities that use moving block signalling on large scale, Vancouver, Kuala Lumpur, and Ankara Turkey). Anyway, here is a description (qoute T2000 British Columbia) of the rails the system in place there uses. "RUNNING RAILS: Standard gauge 115lb CONTINUOUSLY WELDED rail" PHHhhBBBB! I
        

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        • Subject: Re: Welded Rail - Facts
        • Message Number: 755487
        • Posted by: Steve
        • Date: Sun Jun 8 23:33:45 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: Welded Rail - Facts posted by Nathan on June 08, 1997 at 16:50:58: I must admit that the three cities you cite are major transportation meccas, however, I am not convinced. What length do you consider rail continuously welded? 1000', 5000 ', 10000' ? Now, lets take the NY metro area for an example where the temperature extremes from summer to winter might result in a temperature change of 110 degrees farenheit. Now I'm not quite sure what the coefficient of expansion of (lets say) code 128 rail is but lets for argument say that it's 1/64 of an inch per foot (given dt=110). This expansion would result in a 6 1/2 foot change in rail length for every 5000 feet of rail. You better hope that both rails buckle in the same direction or you'll end up with spread rails or worse. Keep your rerailing irons handy.
          

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          • Subject: Re: Welded Rail - Facts
          • Message Number: 755488
          • Posted by: Nathan
          • Date: Mon Jun 9 01:45:02 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: Welded Rail - Facts posted by Steve on June 08, 1997 at 23:33:45: Was that a hint of sarcasm I detected in your voice? Hmmm, Transportation meccas? Sarcasm? Ok, now listen here. If you were being sarcastic, I will say this. Are you saying that despite the fact that these new systems (one's been operating for ten years, the others are under construction) are perhaps inferior? Well well well. New York's system is large, which is why it is so interesting, it has history. But bigger is not always better. Well, if NYC subway was better maintained, yes. First of all, NYC is large, yet it is not a world class system. Why? London, Paris, and to a lesser extent, Washington DC are, because the subway is enjoyable. New York's tube is filthy, and yet you scowl at lines that are more technologically advanced. Back to the trip-arm argument and the TTC Spadina subway crash, saying a similar accident is unlikely on NYC's system is ignorant, how many trip arms do you think have rusted shut over the years? I knew quite a few people who work at the ttc, and let me say they do a damned good job at maintaining the tracks, far better than most of the systems I've been on. But no, an accident that would be the result of poor maintenance would never happen on NYC's subway, noooooo!! Track fires NEVER happen on NYC. Great, you have me bashing the NYC Subway. I like the New York tube, just i think that maybe you should keep your "All high and mighty" opinions to yourself. Back to the trip arm argument,
            

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            • Subject: Re: Welded Rail - Facts
            • Message Number: 755493
            • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
            • Date: Mon Jun 9 10:48:51 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: Welded Rail - Facts posted by Nathan on June 09, 1997 at 01:45:02: Somewhere amid the flame throwers, the point of welded rail has been lost. It matters little how long the sections are, but .25 mile seems to be common areound Boston and NYC. Both those systems need insulated joints for signal purposes so actual rail length is limited to block length. Where blocks are longer in Boston an expansion joint is used which has two pieces of rail planed so that they can slide against each other, creating a smooth ride without any clickity-clack and reducing wear and tear in the equipment.
              

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              • Subject: Welded Rail - Facts
              • Message Number: 755521
              • Posted by: Steve
              • Date: Tue Jun 10 00:05:10 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]Re: Welded Rail - Facts posted by Nathan on June 09, 1997 at 01:45:02: The sarcasm you detected is because I feel that comparing a 90+ year old system to a state of the art system, and one of a much smaller scale, is not a valid comparrison. Now getting back to the discussin of trip arms and what not: I never suggested that the NYCT system is foolproof. Heaven knows that there have been several mishaps in the last 15 years to dispel that notion. Though most of the blame is laid to human error, there is a degree of mechanical failure in every instance. In some cases it has to do with signal system designs from the 30s and 40s managing trains which are now faster and running closer together. On rare occassions, it might be due to a hardware failure. The bottom line is that the NYCT runs over 30 million revenue miles per month with very few incidents and antiquated signals not withstanding, that's a pretty damn good record. Now as to my "High and Mighty Opinions", perhaps you are correct and I might occassionally 'pontificate' for want of a better word. I try not to get involved in speculative discussions but after more than 2 decades in the industry, I feel that I have some justification in correcting mis-statements and mis-representations and I don't think that qualifies as High & Mighty opinions. But any time you feel I've overstepped, feel free to let me know.
                

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                • Subject: Re: Welded Rail - Facts
                • Message Number: 755591
                • Posted by: M.J.S.
                • Date: Wed Jun 11 20:10:52 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [6]Welded Rail - Facts posted by Steve on June 10, 1997 at 00:05:10: It's not a valid comparison because you can easily see that NYC looks like scum mostly, and the others look nice and feel comfortable, something that NY can do but doesn't.
                  

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                  • Subject: Re: Welded Rail - Facts
                  • Message Number: 755598
                  • Posted by: Steve
                  • Date: Wed Jun 11 22:00:05 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [5]Re: Welded Rail - Facts posted by M.J.S. on June 11, 1997 at 20:10:52: You have so many negative comments regarding the NYCT system. I wonder why you don't spend your time on a site devoted to the Ankara, Turkey system. It seems that you'd be happier.
                    

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                    • Subject: Re: Welded Rail - Facts
                    • Message Number: 755619
                    • Posted by: M.J.S.
                    • Date: Thu Jun 12 16:00:16 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [6]Re: Welded Rail - Facts posted by Steve on June 11, 1997 at 22:00:05: Other than this and my DBMTA comment, where do I post so negatively? BTW, you don't seem to ride the NYC system because you don't smell a strong urine odor in many stations. You don't go to platforms where the floors are covered in gum, the tiles are gone or decayed, dark corners, stairs and passageways. I'm just stating that these exist, and you can't say they don't. It would be much better if NYCT would slowly be rebuilt so it's stations and trains resemble those of systems like Ankara. All subways can be compared, it's just how satisfied the average rider is on his journey, Ankara might give this person luxury, while NY gives that person more transit options, but neither can be called better.
                      

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Thread title: Create your subway routes! (755460)
Started on Sun Jun 8 01:48:20 1997, by Michael Adler

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• Subject: Create your subway routes!
• Message Number: 755460
• Posted by: Michael Adler
• Date: Sun Jun 8 01:48:20 1997
  
  Hi all, Why don't you list all routes that you think MTA should run, start from stratch if you want to :-) This should be fun Michael Adler Lakewood, ColorFUL Colorado
  

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  • Subject: Re: Create your subway routes!
  • Message Number: 755473
  • Posted by: Brian
  • Date: Sun Jun 8 11:58:03 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Create your subway routes! posted by Michael Adler on June 08, 1997 at 01:48:20: Here are my ideal routes (assuming the Manhattan Bridge is open) 1,2,3,4,5,6 - Run more 5 trains, but otherwise keep the same. A,T - Trains running to Lefferts should be renamed the T. On weekends, the T would run local in Brooklyn, and the A would run express. B-Would change completely. It would run on the Sea Beach line, express from 59th to Pacific. It would run over the Manhattan Bridge to Broadway. It would run express to 57th St. Then it would run on the N track to Queensboro Plaza. Then it would run to Flushing, and run express in the peak direction, replacing the diamond 7. C-Stay the same D-Run express in Broooklyn, otherwise stay the same. E-Stay the same F-In Brooklyn, run express from Church to Bergen St. It would run express in the peak direction during rush hours from Kings Highway. G-Would be extended to Church Av., and would be extended to Kings Highway during rush hours J- Would run the same in Brooklyn, in Manhattan, it would change over to the 6th Av. line. It would run express on 6th Av., and local on Central Park West to 168th on weekdays, and to Queensbridge on weekends. L-stay the same N-stay the same, but run on West End Line in Brooklyn. Q-Run local in Brooklyn to Coney Island. It would run over the Bridge, and express on Broadway to Queensbridge. R-stay the same Shuttles-stay the same 7-would run local at all times, because of the B.
    

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    • Subject: Re: Create your subway routes!
    • Message Number: 755476
    • Posted by: Jack
    • Date: Sun Jun 8 14:53:25 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Create your subway routes! posted by Brian on June 08, 1997 at 11:58:03: A stays the same V runs local to lefferts blv. B runs to 21st quennsbridge via 6th C the same D the same E the same F the same G runs to Church ave and at least Queens Plaza at all times, extended late at night to 179th Street J the Same L the Same M the same N the same Q runs to 21st Queensbridge via B'Way all times R the same Shuttles the same
      

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      • Subject: Re: Create your subway routes!
      • Message Number: 755484
      • Posted by: Steve
      • Date: Sun Jun 8 23:04:17 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Create your subway routes! posted by Michael Adler on June 08, 1997 at 01:48:20: Here's one: How about changing the northern terminals of the B and the C. Run the B to Bedford Park during rush hours and 145th Street on off-hours. Then run the C to 168th Street during the week like the B is currently run. This way the B is consistantly a 6th Ave local and the C is consistantly an 8th Ave. local. Currently the B becomes an 8th Ave Local north of 125th Street and a 6th Ave Local south of 59th St. The opposite is true of the C line...
        

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        • Subject: Re: Create your subway routes!
        • Message Number: 755485
        • Posted by: Jim
        • Date: Sun Jun 8 23:06:31 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: Create your subway routes! posted by Jack on June 08, 1997 at 14:53:25: And what will run local north of 59th Street to 168th St?????
          

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          • Subject: Re: Create your subway routes!
          • Message Number: 755512
          • Posted by: M.J.S.
          • Date: Mon Jun 9 21:39:02 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: Create your subway routes! posted by Brian on June 08, 1997 at 11:58:03: There's one problem: N trains cannot run on the 7 becuase the IRT cars are narrower and shorter and have a stop handle on another side. When attatched to a work car in the front IRT (notably 7) cars can run on IND/BMT lines for service only, the consists are too short and the gap is too big.
            

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            • Subject: Re: Create your subway routes!
            • Message Number: 755520
            • Posted by: Steve
            • Date: Mon Jun 9 23:47:06 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: Create your subway routes! posted by M.J.S. on June 09, 1997 at 21:39:02: #7 cars are the only IRT cars which can run on the BMT/IND without restriction. The #7 line is an oddity in that it has IRT equipment but has BMT supervision and signals. The trip cocks on the #7 line are on the side opposite the Train Operator whereas the rest of the IRT cars have the trip cock on the train operator side.
              

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              • Subject: Re: Create your subway routes!
              • Message Number: 755536
              • Posted by: Dan Casey
              • Date: Tue Jun 10 12:31:03 1997
                
                In Reply to: [6]Create your subway routes! posted by Michael Adler on June 08, 1997 at 01:48:20: The big, bad New York Regional Plan Association ("more office buildings whether you like them or not") has its own ideas for subway expansion: a 20 billion dollar RER-style system from Secaucus to Port Washington and most places in between. Find it at http://maestro.com/~rpa/rxsum.html Unlike those of railfans, the RPA's dreams have an annoying tendency to come true. Some of their transit ideas this time around are good ones (because actual commuters have been calling for them for years) but some are yet more gold-plated ways to get stockbrokers downtown as comfortably as possible. An excellent corrective to the RPA's worldview (as well as a fascinating critical look at Caro's "The Power Broker") is "The Assassination of New York," by Robert Fitch.
                

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                • Subject: Re: Create your subway routes!
                • Message Number: 755537
                • Posted by: Brian
                • Date: Tue Jun 10 13:13:08 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [6]Re: Create your subway routes! posted by M.J.S. on June 09, 1997 at 21:39:02: The tracks there were shared by the IRT and BMT at one point. If it was shared there before, I do not see why it cannot be done now.
                  

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                  • Subject: Re: Create your subway routes!
                  • Message Number: 755541
                  • Posted by: Steve
                  • Date: Tue Jun 10 14:12:13 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [6]Re: Create your subway routes! posted by Brian on June 10, 1997 at 13:13:08: That is part of the interesting history of the Corona Line. The IRT & BMT shared the ROW. In those days, though, the BMT used IRT sized cars. This is the historical basis for the current situation on the #7 line where IRT cars and crews operate with B division signals and supervision.
                    

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                    • Subject: Re: Create your subway routes!
                    • Message Number: 755549
                    • Posted by: Lefty
                    • Date: Tue Jun 10 17:01:05 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [6]Re: Create your subway routes! posted by Steve on June 09, 1997 at 23:47:06: whats a trip cock?
                      

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                      • Subject: Re: Create your subway routes!
                      • Message Number: 755559
                      • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
                      • Date: Tue Jun 10 20:40:47 1997
                        
                        In Reply to: [6]Re: Create your subway routes! posted by Steve on June 10, 1997 at 14:12:13: The shared operation of both car sizes on the section between Broadway and Metropolitan Av. on the Myrtle line and the various peak hour el car shuttles on the BMT in the early days of the Dual Contracts certainly points to the ability of both car sizes to share an el structure. The maximum train length for such an operation would be 8 (or 9) 60' cars or six 75' cars. I'm certain that the former could take the curves east of QBP without any problem, the only question might be track centers on curves when cars pass. The 75' cars are a scarier thought, however. Of course there is the short subway at Main St., was it built to the wider clearances like the Dual Contracts IRT stuff. If so this idea is pretty doable - shave back the platforms six inches and put in another crossover at QBP! Of course, in the reality of this age, the NIMBY forces would claim that the longer, wider cars would increase noise, wear and tear on the structure (the opposite is probably true), and diminish the values of their homes in Jackson Heights. :)
                        

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                        • Subject: Re: Create your subway routes!
                        • Message Number: 755561
                        • Posted by: David Perry
                        • Date: Wed Jun 11 00:30:08 1997
                          
                          In Reply to: [6]Create your subway routes! posted by Michael Adler on June 08, 1997 at 01:48:20: A modest proposal. . . I don't live in Northern Manhattan, so I don't know what transit demand is like in Morningside Heights, Washington Heights, etc. However, having ridden the Broadway line a couple of times, it seems like it must be an awfully long slog during rush hour. Now, there's a perfectly good express track from 145th to 96th Street. Instead of having skip-stop service, why not have the 1 switch over to the express headed downtown in the morning and uptown in the evening? You could start the 9 at either 145th or 137th to free up some capacity on the upper reaches of the line. You might even be able to use the track from 241st to Dyckman as a super-express, although that's less likely because I don't know if the two-track stretch in-between could handle the increase. But the lower 3-track stretch definitely seems underused. Those of you who know railroad capacities better than I can tell me if this is a good idea. At the very least, there should be some short trips run from 137th street (which I believe they used to do anyway). And it sure would cost less than the 2nd Avenue line :)
                          

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                          • Subject: Re: Create your subway routes!
                          • Message Number: 755565
                          • Posted by: Max
                          • Date: Wed Jun 11 08:08:54 1997
                            
                            In Reply to: [6]Re: Create your subway routes! posted by M.J.S. on June 09, 1997 at 21:39:02: Yes, but at one point the 7 was a BMT line. Did they ever make the adjustments? Or, were they minor?
                            

                            ---

                            • Subject: Re: Create your subway routes!
                            • Message Number: 755570
                            • Posted by: Andrew Byler
                            • Date: Wed Jun 11 10:37:47 1997
                              
                              In Reply to: [6]Create your subway routes! posted by Michael Adler on June 08, 1997 at 01:48:20: J/Z - Eliminate the Z, run the J express from East New York K - Restart the old K train, extended from Canarsie to East New York, then local on into the Chrystie St. Connection and up 6th Ave. to take over the northern B route. B - All the time to 21st. Queensbridge Manhatan Bridge Routes - reopen the south side! Re: 7 line comments - the IRT line is narrower, hence the platforms extend out further. If a BMT/IND car ran up this line, it would take a smack in the side the first time it tried to enter a station. When it was a joint division, the BMT had special narrow cars, and all BMT patrons transferred at the bridge. Andy
                              

                              ---

                              • Subject: Re: Create your subway routes!
                              • Message Number: 755585
                              • Posted by: M.J.S.
                              • Date: Wed Jun 11 19:58:33 1997
                                
                                In Reply to: [6]Re: Create your subway routes! posted by Max on June 11, 1997 at 08:08:54: That is a very stupid thing to say, why would trains be made narrower? Besides both lines were part of a JOINT SERVICE using cars with IRT clearances, BMT passengers had to transfer at a now demolishes side of the Queensborough Plaza station.
                                

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                                • Subject: Re: Create your subway routes!
                                • Message Number: 755587
                                • Posted by: M.J.S.
                                • Date: Wed Jun 11 20:00:34 1997
                                  
                                  In Reply to: [6]Re: Create your subway routes! posted by Gerry O'Regan on June 10, 1997 at 20:40:47: NO, not for Brian or Gerry, see the reply I made for Max.
                                  

                                  ---

                                  • Subject: Re: Create your subway routes!
                                  • Message Number: 755588
                                  • Posted by: M.J.S.
                                  • Date: Wed Jun 11 20:01:32 1997
                                    
                                    In Reply to: [6]Re: Create your subway routes! posted by Steve on June 09, 1997 at 23:47:06: NO NO NO NO NO NO
                                    

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                                    • Subject: Re: Create your subway routes!
                                    • Message Number: 755627
                                    • Posted by: Jay Yudof
                                    • Date: Thu Jun 12 16:36:46 1997
                                      
                                      In Reply to: [6]Re: Create your subway routes! posted by Brian on June 10, 1997 at 13:13:08: I was standing on the BMT platform at 8th & Broadway Northbound one day last month, and a perfectly natural looking train of IRT cars came through deadheading on the local track. Why? Where bound? Why on the local?
                                      

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                                      • Subject: Re: Create your subway routes!
                                      • Message Number: 755654
                                      • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
                                      • Date: Fri Jun 13 08:11:13 1997
                                        
                                        In Reply to: [6]Re: Create your subway routes! posted by Jay Yudof on June 12, 1997 at 16:36:46: Probably a move from Coney Island to the 7 line. Broadway is the only access. As I have said several times before, you can't save enough time on the express tracks to make using them worthwhile, since the move gets dumped back on the local tracks at 57th anyway.
                                        

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Thread title: NEW - NYCT Subway Quiz (755475)
Started on Sun Jun 8 12:53:32 1997, by Steve

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• Subject: NEW - NYCT Subway Quiz
• Message Number: 755475
• Posted by: Steve
• Date: Sun Jun 8 12:53:32 1997
  
  Same prizes as Quiz #1. In quiz #1, six people scored at 70% or better and were awarded the 90th Anniversary Patch. This quiz will have some questions which will be of a more technical nature but the rules are the same. Please send your answers to me via the Hyper-Text link. DO NOT POST YOUR ANSWERS. I have at least ten patches for winners. For those of you who have already gotten the Anniversary patch, I have an alternate. I will post the correct answers on Friday the 13th. GOOD LUCK 10 points for each question. The multi-part questions will be scored accordingly. 1) What was the heaviest subway car ever used on the Subway system ? Hint - it ran on the BMT. 2) What is so unusual about car #3348? 3) Which car class was the first to be delivered with a workable AC System Hint: July 1967 4) What was the first car with Fluorescent lighting. 5) Which 2 car classes had P-Wire brake controls? 6) Traction Motors - 6 parts A) How many traction motors are there per car (R-10 through R-68A) B) Horsepower of traction Motors on the IRT_________ -- This article was automatically copied from the SubTalk web page at http://www.nycsubway.org/subtalk/. (1662.html)
  

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Thread title: Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway) (755481)
Started on Sun Jun 8 18:55:14 1997, by Quigebo

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• Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway)
• Message Number: 755481
• Posted by: Quigebo
• Date: Sun Jun 8 18:55:14 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Some Subway Route ideas posted by Dave Pirmann on June 08, 1997 at 15:31:25: I most defiately believe the 2nd Av Line should be built. Building it in deep-bore tunnels is definately a good idea. Saves the expense of gutting then rebuilding 2nd. And how about this: Build it as a DBOM (Design-Build-Operate-Maintain) contract like the Tren Urbano in San Juan and the Hudson-Bergen LRT. And to save even more, why not tie the 2nd Av Subway into the Nassau St Loop?
  

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  • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway)
  • Message Number: 755496
  • Posted by: Joshua Caesar
  • Date: Mon Jun 9 13:36:11 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway) posted by Quigebo on June 08, 1997 at 18:55:14: Quigebo wrote about the second ave subway: "Build it as a DBOM (Design-Build-Operate-Maintain) contract like the Tren Urbano in San Juan and the Hudson-Bergen LRT." This would be nice, but then the TA would be competing with another operatin company for East side subway riders. It wouldn't happen, why build a subway line and not have it operate as part of our subway? JC
    

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    • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway)
    • Message Number: 755497
    • Posted by: Quigebo
    • Date: Mon Jun 9 14:19:30 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway) posted by Joshua Caesar on June 09, 1997 at 13:36:11: Not exactly! For example, the Hudson Bergen LRT is going to be a New Jersey Transit line, even though the line will be built by Twenty-First Century Rail Corp., which is actually a consortium of five companies. However, NJT has set the guidelines for how the new light rail line will be built. For the 2nd Av Subway, it would be done the same way. The TA would set the guidelines for how the line is built, and the contractor builds the line and the rolling stock. They also operate and maintain the line for a certain number of years. It's all under one contract. And much of the cost is shifted to the private sector. The TA will have to lay out some money, of course, but it would be considerably lower than what it would have to lay out if the 2nd Av Subway were to be built the traditional way.
      

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      • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway)
      • Message Number: 755499
      • Posted by: Lou
      • Date: Mon Jun 9 17:36:58 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway) posted by Joshua Caesar on June 09, 1997 at 13:36:11: >>would be competing with another operatin company What about the three (?) other bus company that run in the city?? Why wouldn't that be the same as this idea??
        

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        • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway)
        • Message Number: 755513
        • Posted by: M.J.S.
        • Date: Mon Jun 9 21:50:38 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway) posted by Quigebo on June 08, 1997 at 18:55:14: When was Tren Urbano opened? when I was in San Juan in 1994 the only public transport in SJ was the free tour bus downtown and the Metropolitan Bus Authority (Autoridad Metropolitana de Autobuses).
          

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          • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway)
          • Message Number: 755516
          • Posted by: Quigebo
          • Date: Mon Jun 9 22:23:37 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway) posted by M.J.S. on June 09, 1997 at 21:50:38: It's not. It's currently under construction. Siemens Transportation Systems won the contract to build it and provide its rolling stock. Siemens hopes to have it in service by 2001.
            

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            • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway)
            • Message Number: 755528
            • Posted by: Dan Casey
            • Date: Tue Jun 10 09:55:41 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway) posted by Quigebo on June 08, 1997 at 18:55:14: What's the track record of DBOM contracts? They sound solid on paper, and insert sufficient "public-private partnership" rhetoric to appeal politically in these dark times, but you can think of a lot of ways such a contractor could give the TA a bum deal: substandard work that begins to fall apart once the contract concludes, the definite likelihood that the TA would be forced to bail out the operation if it was failing financially, etc. Anyone around from Australia or N.Z.? I remember discussion of major DBOM contracs there on m.t.u-t.
              

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              • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway)
              • Message Number: 755529
              • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
              • Date: Tue Jun 10 09:55:43 1997
                
                In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway) posted by Quigebo on June 09, 1997 at 14:19:30: Design - Build - Operate - Maintain Anyone ever hear of the IRT and August Belmont? The city paid the IRT to construct and equip the subway, in return for an annual payment from profits and a fixed fare. It seems this major project was privatized back in the wee years of this century. Will we come full circle in 100 years? Interesting!
                

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                • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway)
                • Message Number: 755548
                • Posted by: John
                • Date: Tue Jun 10 16:57:45 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [5]Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway) posted by Quigebo on June 09, 1997 at 22:23:37: Does anybody know what kind of trains the Tren Urbano will use? How will they compare to a New York subway train?
                  

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                  • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway)
                  • Message Number: 755550
                  • Posted by: Quigebo
                  • Date: Tue Jun 10 17:02:06 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [5]Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway) posted by Dan Casey on June 10, 1997 at 09:55:41: Yes, there are the possibilities of things like that happening, but they could still happen if the 2nd Av Subway were built the tradtional IND way. With one contract, the TA can keep a better eye on what's going on with construction. And if the contractor fails to meet the criteria that they agreed to, they face substantial penalties. The contractor themselves have to maintain the line for a number of years. Then the TA takes over. It will take time to see if this type of public-private partnership will work.
                    

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                    • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway)
                    • Message Number: 755553
                    • Posted by: Quigebo
                    • Date: Tue Jun 10 18:38:00 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [5]Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway) posted by John on June 10, 1997 at 16:57:45: The Tren Urbano will use heavy-rail vehicles from Siemens that will run on entirely grade separated ROW (above and below ground). But the cars will be smaller than those of our subway. I think they might be the same size as the 1993 N5 cars (uglier than the slanted R40 outside, but rather nice inside, and they accelerate fast and ride smooth) from Adtranz used on Philadelphia's Route 100 line to Norristown or. I'd assume that they'll run on third rail and have high platforms like that line except that the Tren Urbano cars will run below ground for at least some of their route.
                      

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                      • Subject: Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway)
                      • Message Number: 755571
                      • Posted by: Andrew Byler
                      • Date: Wed Jun 11 10:44:43 1997
                        
                        In Reply to: [5]Re: Some Subway Route ideas (2nd Av Subway) posted by Quigebo on June 08, 1997 at 18:55:14: I am not certain of the exact working of DBOM contracts such as Tren Urbano, but I do remember a poster in the LTK Engineering Office (they are enhgineers for part of the system). Another name for a DBOM is a Turn-key project. The poster read Turkey project. Doesn't speak well of this method. Andy
                        

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Thread title: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail (755502)
Started on Mon Jun 9 19:03:53 1997, by Nathan

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• Subject: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail
• Message Number: 755502
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Mon Jun 9 19:03:53 1997
  
  Ok, what are everyones views on light rail here? Would even the most die-hard subway connoisseur (sp?) bring themselves to riding light rail? Just wondering, I was at Tri-Met's homepage (Portland transit) and I was just wondering. Light Rail seems to be going up everywhere...
  

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  • Subject: Re: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail
  • Message Number: 755504
  • Posted by: ~airplane
  • Date: Mon Jun 9 20:24:37 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Hudson-Bergen Light Rail posted by Nathan on June 09, 1997 at 19:03:53: I have no objections to light rail, as long as it isn't run on heavily used roads like 42nd St in Manhattan. Seems to me that trolley cars and other things that ran on rails down the middle of the street were one reason why the subway was built in the first place. A light rail line on 42nd St. would just add to traffic.
    

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    • Subject: Re: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail
    • Message Number: 755506
    • Posted by: Nathan
    • Date: Mon Jun 9 20:41:27 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail posted by ~airplane on June 09, 1997 at 20:24:37: Yeah, I know. One question, does the new Hudson Light Rail line run in a reserved median or city streets? I think the median idea is the best, that way traffic doesn't interfere with the lines.
      

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      • Subject: Re: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail
      • Message Number: 755509
      • Posted by: BRYAN LAYNE
      • Date: Mon Jun 9 21:23:17 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail posted by Nathan on June 09, 1997 at 20:41:27: I am not positive about this,but I'm pretty sure that they were planning on putting the LRT line on the right or left side of the strret with a concrete "median" seperating the streetcar line with the rest of 42nd Street.
        

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        • Subject: Re: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail
        • Message Number: 755511
        • Posted by: BRYAN LAYNE
        • Date: Mon Jun 9 21:36:15 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Hudson-Bergen Light Rail posted by Nathan on June 09, 1997 at 19:03:53: I think light rail is a good idea,but not when it is used in such instences like Dallas were it is basically being used as a cheeper form of commuter rail with full sized trains.I think light rail should be used the way its predicesors,the streetcars were and still are in some cities like Boston & S.F..They should be street running(like in S.F.)and they should be used in place of the heaviest traveled bus routes.Overall,I think light rail is an excelent idea but only if its used as a part of a transit network,not the Suburb-Downtown-Suburb,park and ride lot,drop off kinda deals there using them for in many cities now.If you asked me if Light rail will ever be as used and common as the Streetcars were and eventually replace buses I'd have to say no way.America never should have gottin rid of its streetcars and interurban systems in the first place.I guess we just werent thinking about the future,but in my opinion we can recreate the streetcars in the form of modern LRV systems.
          

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          • Subject: Re: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail
          • Message Number: 755514
          • Posted by: David Pirmann
          • Date: Mon Jun 9 22:15:49 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail posted by Nathan on June 09, 1997 at 20:41:27: The HBLR is a combination of PRW and street running. Mostly PRW in Bayonne from what I understand, and street running thru Jersey City to Hoboken. --Dave
            

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            • Subject: Re: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail
            • Message Number: 755515
            • Posted by: Quigebo
            • Date: Mon Jun 9 22:18:09 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail posted by BRYAN LAYNE on June 09, 1997 at 21:23:17: Hey, how about this for LRT in the Big Apple: Why not run a West Side light rail line on Riverside Drive and West Street? Might bring some much-needed development to that area. Have the L and the 7 connect with it as well as the 7th Av Subway at 72nd St. Or if not West St, then maybe run it down 10th or 11th Av. Would certaily be cheaper than the 10th Av Subway that was proposed decades ago. A lot nicer than riding a smelly diesel bus.
              

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              • Subject: Re: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail
              • Message Number: 755554
              • Posted by: Nathan
              • Date: Tue Jun 10 19:31:42 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]Re: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail posted by BRYAN LAYNE on June 09, 1997 at 21:36:15: I think it all depends on how the line is planned, and yes, I think we should have never gotten rid of the old street cars or interurbans, especially the giant Pacific Electric or BC Epectric interurban (radial) lines. Back to Light Rail, I am not quite sure about whether systems like the Dallas system are a good idea. I see what is being done in Portland, (using lrt as a land use tool) and I think that in that use it could be a good idea, then I see LA, which experiences low ridership (blueline is higher than the subway ridership, i think the blue light rail is at about 45 000 people per day) and then I see Calgary's lrt carrying 115 000 people per day and vancouver's ART carrying the same patronage. WHY?? I think that if Light Rail is being used on suburb-downtown corridors (like dallas) it should be made highly competitive with the auto, I mean high speeds, maybe up to 100km/h (is that about 60 mph?) Anyway, I'll have to wait and see...
                

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                • Subject: Re: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail
                • Message Number: 755564
                • Posted by: Max
                • Date: Wed Jun 11 08:06:47 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [6]Hudson-Bergen Light Rail posted by Nathan on June 09, 1997 at 19:03:53: The light rail seems to work fantastically in Miami. For a quarter, it really gets you around. Its pretty fast, too.
                  

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                  • Subject: Re: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail
                  • Message Number: 755576
                  • Posted by: Nathan
                  • Date: Wed Jun 11 17:17:04 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [5]Re: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail posted by Max on June 11, 1997 at 08:06:47: Ah, are you talking about the MetroMover? (I hated the MetroRail) but yeah, i think if they (LRT's) are planned well then they can be really effective, but the only experience with LRT is the one in Calgary (apparently the most successful in North America) but it seemed fast, but other than that, well, here politicians are saying that we'll have 3 lrt lines by 2005, right.
                    

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                    • Subject: Re: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail
                    • Message Number: 755589
                    • Posted by: M.J.S.
                    • Date: Wed Jun 11 20:05:39 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [6]Re: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail posted by Quigebo on June 09, 1997 at 22:18:09: Or why not save millions of dollars and run it on thr abandoned West-side freight line?
                      

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Thread title: An Amazing Piece of Machinery (755505)
Started on Mon Jun 9 20:27:21 1997, by Steve

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• Subject: An Amazing Piece of Machinery
• Message Number: 755505
• Posted by: Steve
• Date: Mon Jun 9 20:27:21 1997
  
  I got a firsthand look at the LIRR track rehab project going on between Jamaica & Sunnyside Yard. They are using one of the most amazing pieces of equipment I have ever seen on a railroad. The train is pulled by a diesel and consists of about 15 flat cars loaded with concrete ties, then comes this piece of equipment. From what I saw, it works like this: The LIRR layed out miles of welded rail just to the outside of the existing trackage: The train rides over the track to be replaced. The first truck rides over the old track. Behaid the first truck, the old rail is picked from the ties and then the ties are removed. The new concrete ties are dropped and the new rail is 'threaded' onto the new concrete ties and clipped in place. The second truck rides over the new track. The segment done over the weekend looks absolutely first class, absolutely straight and level. The equipment is leased from the CN railroad and is amazing. I hope to get some pictures this weekend.
  

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  • Subject: Re: An Amazing Piece of Machinery
  • Message Number: 755531
  • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
  • Date: Tue Jun 10 10:14:26 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]An Amazing Piece of Machinery posted by Steve on June 09, 1997 at 20:27:21: Only one question: What is the disposition of the third rail through all this? Is it removed beforehand and then reinstalled? Such a machine has been seen in other parts and gotten mention in the trade press. This is the first time I have heard of it being used on a line w/ third rail.
    

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    • Subject: Re: An Amazing Piece of Machinery
    • Message Number: 755539
    • Posted by: Todd Glickman
    • Date: Tue Jun 10 14:02:03 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: An Amazing Piece of Machinery posted by Gerry O'Regan on June 10, 1997 at 10:14:26: I rode through this area a few weeks ago, before the "Amazing Piece Of Machinery" arrived. However, much of the third rail had been removed. So I assume that Gerry is right, and it must be removed before the APOM does its thing, then the third rail is reinstalled. By the way, as a native New Yorker and LIRR fan from childhood, I've ridden the entire railroad, except that I had never had the opportunity to ride the LIC branch from LIC to Jamaica -- given its very limited schedule during weekdays only. However, with Hunterspoint Ave. station closed for the summer, the LIRR is running more frequent service. I finally got to ride this last piece of LIRR trackage a few weeks ago. I urge all to get on board this summer! (The best part is riding through Forest Park -- it's as if you were in the middle of the nowhere!)
      

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      • Subject: Re: An Amazing Piece of Machinery
      • Message Number: 755540
      • Posted by: Steve
      • Date: Tue Jun 10 14:04:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: An Amazing Piece of Machinery posted by Gerry O'Regan on June 10, 1997 at 10:14:26: The 3rd rail was removed before this piece of equipment was brought in. The ties have to holes at the ends which are closed with plastic caps. I assume that these holes are going to be used to re-mount the 3rd rail insulatous and protection board brackets. By the way, does anyone know what this piece of equipment is called?
        

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        • Subject: Re: An Amazing Piece of Machinery
        • Message Number: 755543
        • Posted by: Steve
        • Date: Tue Jun 10 14:19:23 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: An Amazing Piece of Machinery posted by Todd Glickman on June 10, 1997 at 14:02:03: Thanks Todd, I plan to do just that, next week.
          

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          • Subject: Re: An Amazing Piece of Machinery
          • Message Number: 755556
          • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
          • Date: Tue Jun 10 20:17:36 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: An Amazing Piece of Machinery posted by Todd Glickman on June 10, 1997 at 14:02:03: Heaven help us! More frequent service could mean someone might actually ride it. And if it stopped between Jamaica and LIC the LIRR might find out that there is a market for 'real' service in that area.
            

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Thread title: N running express (755508)
Started on Mon Jun 9 20:50:15 1997, by Brian

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• Subject: N running express
• Message Number: 755508
• Posted by: Brian
• Date: Mon Jun 9 20:50:15 1997
  
  Today, I was riding the N from 14th to 23rd. However, the uptown N was running express. There were no signs up either. I had to go to 34th and get the F (I needed to go to 6th Ave). Does anyone know why this happened?
  

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  • Subject: Re: N running express
  • Message Number: 755510
  • Posted by: John
  • Date: Mon Jun 9 21:33:24 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]N running express posted by Brian on June 09, 1997 at 20:50:15: This might have been due to track work. Are you sure you didn't see any signs posted in the station or anything?
    

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    • Subject: Re: N running express
    • Message Number: 755519
    • Posted by: Steve
    • Date: Mon Jun 9 23:43:36 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]N running express posted by Brian on June 09, 1997 at 20:50:15: At what time did this happen? There were several service interruptions on the N line Monday. Perhaps your train was running around a stalled one.
      

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      • Subject: Re: N running express
      • Message Number: 755535
      • Posted by: Peter Rosa
      • Date: Tue Jun 10 11:25:19 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: N running express posted by John on June 09, 1997 at 21:33:24: I've seen the N running express a few times as well, without any signs regarding track work. Possibly the TA routes some N trains onto the express tracks during rush hour in order to speed things up a bit. Without the south side tracks on the Manhattan Bridge there may be limits as to how many trains can be so routed, which may be enough to prevent regular N express service as opposed to occasional re-routings.
        

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        • Subject: Re: N running express
        • Message Number: 755563
        • Posted by: Max
        • Date: Wed Jun 11 08:04:43 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: N running express posted by Peter Rosa on June 10, 1997 at 11:25:19: When will the Manhattan Bridge be opened again?
          

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          • Subject: Re: N running express
          • Message Number: 755596
          • Posted by: Steve
          • Date: Wed Jun 11 21:37:44 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: N running express posted by Max on June 11, 1997 at 08:04:43: YES
            

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Thread title: Re: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail sim (755517)
Started on Mon Jun 9 22:28:01 1997, by Ted Nielsen

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• Subject: Re: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail sim
• Message Number: 755517
• Posted by: Ted Nielsen
• Date: Mon Jun 9 22:28:01 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Hudson-Bergen Light Rail posted by Nathan on June 09, 1997 at 20:41:27: If you're interested in the Hudson-Bergen LRT , I recently created a layout based on it for the bahn program ( you can download the Bahn 3.40 program and my HBLRT layout in the software section , look at the index ). I don't think its 100 percent accurate , but , it should give you a good overview of the system and the areas it will serve.
  

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Thread title: New Routes n' stuff (755522)
Started on Tue Jun 10 03:02:37 1997, by Max

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• Subject: New Routes n' stuff
• Message Number: 755522
• Posted by: Max
• Date: Tue Jun 10 03:02:37 1997
  
  1) Does anyone know where the walled-off tracks at the second ave station on the Culver Line goes? Can it be used for express service? 2) With Chelsea exploding, doesn't it make sense to activate the overhead railroad line that is abandon there? The question is though, where would it connect?
  

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  • Subject: Re: New Routes n' stuff
  • Message Number: 755524
  • Posted by: Dan
  • Date: Tue Jun 10 08:55:50 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]New Routes n' stuff posted by Max on June 10, 1997 at 03:02:37: 1) The walled-off tracks once extended east along Houston Street for a bit. They were only used for layups, but were probably built for an expansion that never took place. 2)The west side tracks are cut off by a new building down around West 11 Street. You are talking hundreds of millions of $$ to do anything in Manhattan
    

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    • Subject: Re: New Routes n' stuff
    • Message Number: 755534
    • Posted by: Peter Rosa
    • Date: Tue Jun 10 11:21:14 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]New Routes n' stuff posted by Max on June 10, 1997 at 03:02:37: Those walled-off tracks at 2nd Avenue on the F line were built as part of an abortive IND extension to Brooklyn and Queens - the so-called "Second System," scuttled by the Depression and World War Two. As far as I know, they extend about a trainlength beyond the station, maybe a bit longer. There are a few other traces of the Second System at stations in Manhattan and Brooklyn. Joe Brennan's Abandoned Subway Stations web site (I don't have the URL, but it should be linked from elsewhere in Subway Resources) has a detailed listing of these. Reopening the old West Side line would be difficult if not impossible, as parts of the former ROW have been blocked by buildings and parts of the elevated structure removed. In addition, this line connects only to the Amtrak lines into Penn Station; connecting it to the subway system would require a significant amount of tunnelling.
      

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      • Subject: Re: New Routes n' stuff
      • Message Number: 755569
      • Posted by: Andrew Byler
      • Date: Wed Jun 11 10:23:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: New Routes n' stuff posted by Dan on June 10, 1997 at 08:55:50: The West Side Line (ex NYC) *could* be put to good use without too much trouble or money. It is a matter of political will power. For example, it could pretty easily (speaking in terms of the Civil Engineering involved, not the politics) be connected to form a sort of loop from the L to the 7 line. The 7 could have its platforms modified to IND/BMT standards, and a new through route could be born. Right now, however, there is no will power to improve life in New York in this sort of way. This is the same paralysis which has long prevented something as simple as a short branch off the A train to JFK, or a short extension of the N to LaGuardia. It makes sense, but this is modern New York, not the New York which finished the Empire State building in 11 months. Of course, *if* the TA got money to spend on new routes, the first priority would probably be finishing the long promised 2nd Ave. line, seeing as there are four good chunks already done and awaiting track and signalling work (2 in Harlem between 99th and 120th, 1 in East Village between 2nd and 9th, 1 in Chinatown/Soho south of the Manhattan Bridge), and much of the engineering already completed for the rest. Andrew Byler
        

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        • Subject: Re: New Routes n' stuff
        • Message Number: 755651
        • Posted by: Nathan
        • Date: Fri Jun 13 00:18:23 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: New Routes n' stuff posted by Andrew Byler on June 11, 1997 at 10:23:39: What they should have done in the first place, to keep the Westside Line in a state that it could be used again if demand arises, was build over the tracks, when I say this I mean have the building straddle the el tracks! I've seen this done before, it makes the building look more modern, and it would have made sense to keep this corridor in a state that it could be reactivated. One thing though, is the TA planning on doing any el-structure replacements? They could free up a lot space (that's currently being taken up by iron girders and other old, metal support structures) if the TA decided to upgrade older el-lines, by perhaps using newer, concrete "guideway" (still trying to figure out why the damn word is used). This could only be done a little at a time, as the traffic disruptions would be immense...
          

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          • Subject: Re: New Routes n' stuff
          • Message Number: 755656
          • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
          • Date: Fri Jun 13 08:40:20 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: New Routes n' stuff posted by Nathan on June 13, 1997 at 00:18:23: In my opinion the open deck steel el is a far better match for NYC streets than the concrete structures being built elsewhere. To begin with the open deck track allows a reasonable amount of light to filter down to the street below. The 'modern' concrete variety is solid, an uninterrupted shadow. The solid deck also serves as a sounding board, amplifying the train's roar rather than dissipating it as the open deck does. Finally, although the columns on a concrete structure are fewer in number they are thicker and more obstructive. It would be rough on a narrow street like Roosevelt Av.
            

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            • Subject: Re: New Routes n' stuff
            • Message Number: 755662
            • Posted by: M.J.S.
            • Date: Fri Jun 13 12:02:00 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: New Routes n' stuff posted by Nathan on June 13, 1997 at 00:18:23: Why replace something that has worked for 100 years and still works? If the MTA builds new els, then they can go with your strange ideas.
              

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              • Subject: Re: New Routes n' stuff
              • Message Number: 755743
              • Posted by: Julio Perez
              • Date: Tue Jun 17 07:41:30 1997
                
                In Reply to: [6]Re: New Routes n' stuff posted by Gerry O'Regan on June 13, 1997 at 08:40:20: Concrete on Roosevelt Avenue east of 46th Street could be done if the sidewalks were narrowed by about 3-4 feet, providing more area for asphalt once the steel columns were removed and replaced by concrete ones down the center of Roosevelt. Parking on the street would have to be eliminated as well. As for concrete beds amplifying sounds, MDTA (Metro-Dade Transit Agency, Dade County, FL) solved that problem by placing concrete barriers high enough to cover the trucks of the trains, thus reducing noises when the trains pass close to residential neighborhoods.
                

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Thread title: idea #4 (755525)
Started on Tue Jun 10 09:17:00 1997, by Dan

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• Subject: idea #4
• Message Number: 755525
• Posted by: Dan
• Date: Tue Jun 10 09:17:00 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Subway Route ideas posted by Dan Weissman on June 07, 1997 at 12:53:16: The tunnel work from Brooklyn was started in the 1920s(?), but nothing of substance was constructed. The Staten Island tunnel shaft was filled in with dirt from the Verazzano bridge construction. How appropriate.
  

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  • Subject: Re: idea #4
  • Message Number: 755592
  • Posted by: M.J.S.
  • Date: Wed Jun 11 20:18:35 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]idea #4 posted by Dan on June 10, 1997 at 09:17:00: The tunnel was nowhere ner the bridge, it was on Owl's Head Park, and no construction was done in SI
    

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    • Subject: Re: idea #4
    • Message Number: 755607
    • Posted by: Dan
    • Date: Thu Jun 12 11:47:43 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: idea #4 posted by M.J.S. on June 11, 1997 at 20:18:35: The tunnel shaft on the s.i. end was not near the bridge, but it was filled up with excavated earth from the bridge construction. There was some work done on s.i., though not as much as remains under Owl's head park.
      

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Thread title: Re: Route Ideas - item #5 (755526)
Started on Tue Jun 10 09:31:12 1997, by Dan

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• Subject: Re: Route Ideas - item #5
• Message Number: 755526
• Posted by: Dan
• Date: Tue Jun 10 09:31:12 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Route Ideas - PATH -- Warning LONG posted by David Pirmann on June 07, 1997 at 14:43:43: The SIR north shore tracks are going to be re-furbished for freight use, the work is supposedly starting later this year. The Arthur Kill lift-bridge is also going to be re-furbished, along with the the tracks to Cranford, NJ. As for passenger service, it was abandoned by the B&O RR in 1953. A lot of elected officials hope for a light-rail type service from St. George to Arlington in the distant future.
  

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Thread title: R-10 Page Update (755532)
Started on Tue Jun 10 10:15:35 1997, by Julio Perez

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• Subject: R-10 Page Update
• Message Number: 755532
• Posted by: Julio Perez
• Date: Tue Jun 10 10:15:35 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: R-10 posted by David Pirmann on June 08, 1997 at 00:39:29: Please post a note on SubTalk when you update the information on the R-10s on the web site!
  

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Thread title: R110 A & B: Whatever happened to them? (755533)
Started on Tue Jun 10 10:15:53 1997, by Nick Roberts

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• Subject: R110 A & B: Whatever happened to them?
• Message Number: 755533
• Posted by: Nick Roberts
• Date: Tue Jun 10 10:15:53 1997
  
  I recently flipped through the "NYC subway Cars" book, and in the beginning it says that the MTA is hoping to purchase 2 to 3 hundered of the R110 A & Bcars this year. However, The Book also has a photo of an R-127 car, and there's been some discussion of an R-142 car on here, which suggests that maybe the R110 A & B aren't going to be the cars purchased in "mass quantity" by the MTA. Also, I remember a year or so ago seeing a report about these cars on the Channel 11 News at Ten (WPIX-New York) The report said that people disliked these cars because there was few seats, few handle bars, and little standing room. So what's the deal? Does anybody know if the MTA is purchasing these, or other new technology trains soon? If so, when? Is the R110 A & B still being used. If so, what lines-according to the Subway carws book, the R110A is the #2, and the R110B is the letter A. Please let me know if these have changed or not. Please post and e-mail at: Nickmeister@Hotmail.com THANK YOU! -NICK
  

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  • Subject: Re: R110 A & B: Whatever happened to them?
  • Message Number: 755538
  • Posted by: Joshua Caesar
  • Date: Tue Jun 10 14:00:20 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]R110 A & B: Whatever happened to them? posted by Nick Roberts on June 10, 1997 at 10:15:53: The R110A and R110B were test sets, there were never any plans to buy any of them in mass quantities for revenue use. The R110 series trains were ordered to test out new technologies, and recieve the public's view on them. The tests done with the R110s is what has gone into making the R127 and R142. JC
    

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    • Subject: Re: R110 A & B: Whatever happened to them?
    • Message Number: 755542
    • Posted by: Steve
    • Date: Tue Jun 10 14:17:27 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: R110 A & B: Whatever happened to them? posted by Joshua Caesar on June 10, 1997 at 14:00:20: One correction: The R-110s will be the test cars which will result in the R-142 and R-143 cars. The R-127 is a work motor which resembles an R-62 with only one door per side and no windows.
      

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      • Subject: Re: R110 A & B: Whatever happened to them?
      • Message Number: 755555
      • Posted by: Nathan
      • Date: Tue Jun 10 19:40:02 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: R110 A & B: Whatever happened to them? posted by Steve on June 10, 1997 at 14:17:27: Who is making the R-142's and R-143s? Will it be the same companies that built the R-110s (Bombardier and was it kawasaki, i don't know that one)? Thanx
        

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        • Subject: Re: R110 A & B: Whatever happened to them?
        • Message Number: 755558
        • Posted by: Quigebo
        • Date: Tue Jun 10 20:34:59 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: R110 A & B: Whatever happened to them? posted by Nathan on June 10, 1997 at 19:40:02: Kawasaki is the other company. They're building 400 of the new R142 cars, while Bombardier will build the other 680.
          

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Thread title: South Brooklyn LRT (755545)
Started on Tue Jun 10 14:30:16 1997, by Ted Nielsen

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• Subject: South Brooklyn LRT
• Message Number: 755545
• Posted by: Ted Nielsen
• Date: Tue Jun 10 14:30:16 1997
  
  I recently read about a new proposal ( or fantasy ! ) for an LRT system between Red Hook and Downtown Brooklyn. The system would serve two functions : 1.) A new way of getting to Downtown Brooklyn from Red Hook and Carroll Gardens besides taking the bus or walking. The LRT could bring people to the Heights , Metrotech , Boro Hall , subway stations , shopping area of Fulton St. and other commercial areas. 2.) A tourist tram that could be part of the world's largest transportation museum ( including the Trolley Museum in Red Hook , the Atlantic Ave. tunnel , and Transit Museum ) , a "moving museum" that includes a grand tour of Downtown Brooklyn. The route would start at the Trolley Museum in Red Hook , run from Van Brunt St. to Richards St. , to Coffey St. connecting with the Beard Street Pier ( first demostration phase ) , and perhaps with more funding ( $ 210,000 in federal funds are forthcoming ) the line would be extended through Carroll Gardens , Cobble Hills ( perhaps running up Court St. ) to the Transit Museum , and on to Boro Hall ( Cadman Plaza ) . The B75 bus currently runs that route.
  

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Thread title: NYC Subway screen saver ? (755547)
Started on Tue Jun 10 15:53:50 1997, by Ted Nielsen

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• Subject: NYC Subway screen saver ?
• Message Number: 755547
• Posted by: Ted Nielsen
• Date: Tue Jun 10 15:53:50 1997
  
  Does anyone know if a NYC Subway screen saver exists somewhere ? I really would like to watch subways moving across my screen ( including different types of cars from the past , present and special work trains ). Another feature I would like to see is different backgrounds like : the 42nd Street IRT station , an elevated subway station with cars moving under the tracks on the streets below , subway yard operations , etc.
  

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  • Subject: Re: NYC Subway screen saver ?
  • Message Number: 755552
  • Posted by: BRYAN LAYNE
  • Date: Tue Jun 10 17:49:39 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]NYC Subway screen saver ? posted by Ted Nielsen on June 10, 1997 at 15:53:50: oh man,thats weird I was just thinkin the about the same thing the other day.That would be awsome.
    

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    • Subject: Re: NYC Subway screen saver ?
    • Message Number: 755560
    • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
    • Date: Tue Jun 10 22:37:36 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway screen saver ? posted by BRYAN LAYNE on June 10, 1997 at 17:49:39: Someone should contact the company behind After Dark (Berkley Systems). If they can make Toasters Fly, they should be able to handle 10 R36s and an R-33 on the flyover at 111th St.
      

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      • Subject: Re: NYC Subway screen saver ?
      • Message Number: 755567
      • Posted by: Julio Perez
      • Date: Wed Jun 11 08:41:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway screen saver ? posted by Gerry O'Regan on June 10, 1997 at 22:37:36: ...and don't forget the occasional R-33/36 horn toot to get the maintenance crew off the tracks, brake screeching, and express train rumbling past the station! There _has_ to be a screen saver with subways somewhere!! Any ideas, folks?
        

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Thread title: Want to purchase 2 "Hoboken on the Hudson" tickets (755551)
Started on Tue Jun 10 17:46:00 1997, by Richard Ahrens

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• Subject: Want to purchase 2 "Hoboken on the Hudson" tickets
• Message Number: 755551
• Posted by: Richard Ahrens
• Date: Tue Jun 10 17:46:00 1997
  
  Does anyone out there have 2 tickets to the NY Transit Museum's "Hoboken on the Hudson" tour scheduled for August 9? If you have them and are willing to sell, please contact me via e-mail at ahrens@webspan.net ....
  

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Thread title: IND Station Tile Colors (755557)
Started on Tue Jun 10 20:26:00 1997, by Peggy Darlington

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• Subject: IND Station Tile Colors
• Message Number: 755557
• Posted by: Peggy Darlington
• Date: Tue Jun 10 20:26:00 1997
  
  Does anyone have the key to IND station Tile Colors. At first I thought it was by line but then stations like W4th thre that idea out the window. I then thought zones,b ut the G line and Penn Sta/8th ave killed that idea.
  

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  • Subject: Re: IND Station Tile Colors
  • Message Number: 755653
  • Posted by: Frank Gatazka
  • Date: Fri Jun 13 07:28:38 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]IND Station Tile Colors posted by Peggy Darlington on June 10, 1997 at 20:26:00: When the IND original 8th Avenue - Washington Heights line was built in 1932, it utilized a color guide for the station tile colors. This was to assist passengers in locating their station(s). This was followed on all subsequent construction through 1946. The "base" station is West 4th Street, with routes radiating outward. All local stops followed the color of the PREVIOUS express stop. Stations with side platforms had a two color stripe and two color name entablature. Island station platforms have a color stripe on the opposite wall only. Of course there are exceptions! 175th and 207th Street Stations on the Washington Heights Line have no color tiles, local stops from 23 St. to 163 St. and 181, 191, and 200-Dyckman Sts. did not use a color stripe. Fordham Road on the Concourse line uses both the name tablets and stripes. On lines that have no express service, such as the Crosstown Line, the colors USUALLY change at transfer points or major stations. Space does not permit me to list the entire color code, however, you can work that out for yourself if you ride enough of the lines. Construction post 1946 did not uniformally follow this color system.
    

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Thread title: G Line (755562)
Started on Wed Jun 11 03:10:30 1997, by Max

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• Subject: G Line
• Message Number: 755562
• Posted by: Max
• Date: Wed Jun 11 03:10:30 1997
  
  Does anyone know why there are three tracks at Bedford-Nostrand and why the G couldn't be connected to the A at Fulton (the A runs under the G there). If you look at the G, there are places where it looks like there was a G express train. There are three tracks leading from Court Square and 21st Van Alst. Is it also true there are plans to meet Van Alsts' station with the 7? Also, there are rail tunnels underneath Van Alst. Does any one know what they are used for?
  

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  • Subject: Re: G Line
  • Message Number: 755574
  • Posted by: Dan Casey
  • Date: Wed Jun 11 14:38:14 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]G Line posted by Max on June 11, 1997 at 03:10:30: I'm fairly certain there was never a G express; if you look at that "third track" you'll see that there are no rails or ties there, just ballast. Possibly there was an express planned and never put into place. A more intriguing possibility is that another subway would have shared the tunnel. I recall an old BMT map on display at the Transit Museum that showed a projected subway to replace the Lexington Ave. el through Bed-Stuy; don't remember what the exact date was.
    

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    • Subject: Re: G Line
    • Message Number: 755595
    • Posted by: Steve
    • Date: Wed Jun 11 21:36:41 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]G Line posted by Max on June 11, 1997 at 03:10:30: Before the G train, was the GG local. There was never an express. The 3rd track at 21st St.-VanAlst. is just a spur. It's used to turn trains when Court Sq. is a terminal. It is also used to store bad order trains until thay can be moved to the yard. As for Bedford Nostrand, the IND was built with much flexibility built in. There are several places along Queens Blvd with cuts into the walls for expansion. Bedford-Nostrand was built with the 3rd track to serve as a terminal if the need for such a service arose. The G could be connected to the A Line south of Fulton Street but what would be the purpose?
      

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      • Subject: G Line
      • Message Number: 761243
      • Posted by: Steve
      • Date: Mon Jan 5 22:06:53 1998
        
        In Reply to: [8]Best/Worst Subways (Redux) posted by Sammy on December 28, 1997 at 22:35:00: Clair Schulman, Queens Boro-president would be the first person I'd speak to. She's very concerned where transit matters are concenred.
        

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Thread title: R142's and R143's:When are they arriving? (755566)
Started on Wed Jun 11 08:10:10 1997, by Nick

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• Subject: R142's and R143's:When are they arriving?
• Message Number: 755566
• Posted by: Nick
• Date: Wed Jun 11 08:10:10 1997
  
  Thanks to all who gave input on the R110 A and B question!! Since the R142 and R143 trains are going to be purchased, when can we expect to see them? I bet their going to replace some of the redbirds, as well as some other trains (Like the E and Q cars). I hope they work out the "bugs" from the r110 a and b-like the few seats, handle bars, and standing room problems that riders were complaining about. Also, I've heard that bench seating is making a comeback-in order to make more standing room. The r110a already had this feature, but not the r110b. -NICK
  

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  • Subject: Re: R142's and R143's:When are they arriving?
  • Message Number: 755593
  • Posted by: M.J.S.
  • Date: Wed Jun 11 20:43:01 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]R142's and R143's:When are they arriving? posted by Nick on June 11, 1997 at 08:10:10: In 1999. No everything will be te same. The trains are going to replace most of the RedBirds. Why would you get rid of the cars on the Q, THEY'RE BRAND NEW!!! Besides the R-142 is an IRT car and the E and Q are BMT/IND lines, you must also have forgotten the reliability rate of the R-32s. How will bench seating help address this? I understand the return of all Longitudnal seating, if you meant longitudnal then you mixed up your cars. Next time before posting just check the tons of data available on this site.
    

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Thread title: Another R-10 Question (755568)
Started on Wed Jun 11 08:49:45 1997, by Julio Perez

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• Subject: Another R-10 Question
• Message Number: 755568
• Posted by: Julio Perez
• Date: Wed Jun 11 08:49:45 1997
  
  A message in an earlier thread said the R-10s were "all gone." But, are they all gone just for revenue service (i.e., they are still being used as work trains), or have they been totally eliminated from the system through resale or scrapping?
  

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  • Subject: Re: Another R-10 Question
  • Message Number: 755600
  • Posted by: Steve
  • Date: Wed Jun 11 22:08:04 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Another R-10 Question posted by Julio Perez on June 11, 1997 at 08:49:45: Except for those saved for museum cars, they are all gone. There may be one rusting away in Coney Island but I ddon't recall any on the current roster as work motors.
    

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    • Subject: Re: Another R-10 Question
    • Message Number: 755609
    • Posted by: Mark S Feinman
    • Date: Thu Jun 12 13:11:38 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Another R-10 Question posted by Steve on June 11, 1997 at 22:08:04: R-10 #3184 currently calls the Coney Island Yard its home, sitting on the "museum tracks" on the eastern-most part of the main yard. --Mark
      

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      • Subject: Re: Another R-10 Question
      • Message Number: 755630
      • Posted by: WILLIAM A. PADRON
      • Date: Thu Jun 12 16:55:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Another R-10 Question posted by Mark S Feinman on June 12, 1997 at 13:11:38: These are the only R-10 cars that are in existence today: #3184 - Restored "museum" car stored at Coney Island Yard; #3189 - R.C.I Yard Office-School Training Car at Pitkin Yard. Also, #1575 [the prototype car originally built from an R-7A in 1947] is in the New York Transit Museum in Brooklyn. The last R-10 car to be removed from NYCTA property was #3081, which was the only surviving G.E.-equipped unit to remain in existence. Sincerely, WILLIAM A. PADRON E.R.A. #5783 New York, N.Y. P.S. I should know about these R-10 cars in particular...they are my all- time favorite New York City subway car fleet, and I still miss them to this day!!!
        

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Thread title: Working for the NYTransit (755572)
Started on Wed Jun 11 13:50:07 1997, by Sabri Boja

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• Subject: Working for the NYTransit
• Message Number: 755572
• Posted by: Sabri Boja
• Date: Wed Jun 11 13:50:07 1997
  
  To whom it may concern: I would like to know what are the procedures for one to apply for employment at the NYCTransit, MTA, LIRR. Does there exist seperate Human Resources/Perssonel Dept. for job listings? Is there a site on the web for listings of job openings/employment for the NYCTransit, MTA, LIRR? Please email me at: mirqc@1cunix1.qc.edu if you can answer my questions. Thanks, Sabri Boja
  

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Thread title: Re: NYC Subway screen saver ideas (755573)
Started on Wed Jun 11 14:30:17 1997, by Ted Nielsen

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• Subject: Re: NYC Subway screen saver ideas
• Message Number: 755573
• Posted by: Ted Nielsen
• Date: Wed Jun 11 14:30:17 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway screen saver ? posted by Julio Perez on June 11, 1997 at 08:41:39: I contacted a few screen saver companies and made the suggestion. I have a few ideas for backgrounds - 1.) 2-level stations ( like IRT 59th St. ) 2.) elevated stations 3.) rail yard operations 4.) terminus stations ( with trains reversing ) 5.) stations with local and express tracks Other ideas : 1.) train sounds 2.) train selection menu - you can choose what trains you want to see 3.) cab-view options ( see what a driver sees when he comes into a station ) If you have any other suggestions or ideas , post it !
  

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  • Subject: Re: NYC Subway screen saver ideas
  • Message Number: 755581
  • Posted by: Brian W
  • Date: Wed Jun 11 19:45:25 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway screen saver ideas posted by Ted Nielsen on June 11, 1997 at 14:30:17: Not only for New York, but what about one for other systems worldwide like one for the Toronto system? Or better yet, have a menu or something to select what system you want to see. Maybe even have a module where there's a quiz that asks you questions about different systems, sort of like After Dark's "You Bet Your Head".
    

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    • Subject: Re: NYC Subway screen saver ideas
    • Message Number: 755644
    • Posted by: Nathan
    • Date: Thu Jun 12 20:02:46 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Subway screen saver ideas posted by Brian W on June 11, 1997 at 19:45:25: That's a good idea, TO is an interesting tube, kinda old yet modern and clean. I want to ask three things though while I'm on the topic of TO's tube. 1)The 216new T-1 cars being built by bombardier, as of now how many trainsets have been accepted by the ttc? Do the T-1s make up the standard 6 car consist? Or will trains be either shorter or longer than existing trains? 2)When is the TTC retiring the M-Series trains? I was on a couple M's over the summer (on the Y-U-S) and they seemed in good condition. 3)When the T-1s go into service, will they be only used on the Y-U-S, or will they venture onto the Bloor-Danforth? (I HATE the H series trains currently used on the BD, blech, orange...)
      

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      • Subject: Re: NYC Subway screen saver ideas
      • Message Number: 755659
      • Posted by: Bingo
      • Date: Fri Jun 13 11:09:37 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Subway screen saver ideas posted by Nathan on June 12, 1997 at 20:02:46: 1) So far there are 4 full 6-car trains in service, and 1 train still in testing. The testing pisses me off because what they did was pull the train in, open the doors on the other side!!! teasing the passengers on the platform, and took off. They did this with all the trains aforementioned. The Sheppard line will be running 4 car trains after the line opens. When rider demand increases, 6 car trains will be added. That's all I know. 2) The MLW (Montreal Locomotive Works) trains have been running for, in my opinion, nostalgia purposes only. It was the first train to be designed and built in Canada, and set the industry standard. There is only one 8 car set running on the Bloor-Danforth line, and it never ventures onto the Yonge-University line. 3) The T-1's were specifically purchased to meet the Sheppard Lines demand and modernize the TTC's rolling stock. The TTC is currently in the process of phasing out the old H-3 (grey/blue interior) cars which are not air conditioned and make for a real-life Dante's peak when going for long rides during the summer. The H-(?)s are unfortunately the standard on the Bloor line, and will not be replaced. But I've always thought the disgusting wood-grain and orange palette served to you on the H-5's were much more Trudeau-esque and hence, vomit inducing.
        

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Thread title: Re: Welded Rail - Real Facts vs. Myths (755575)
Started on Wed Jun 11 16:15:31 1997, by Andrew Byler

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• Subject: Re: Welded Rail - Real Facts vs. Myths
• Message Number: 755575
• Posted by: Andrew Byler
• Date: Wed Jun 11 16:15:31 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Welded Rail - Facts posted by Steve on June 07, 1997 at 21:19:06: Regarding CWR - from a Railroad Engineer CWR can be used in railroads at any length without buckling. It is a mistaken notion which does not correspond to the facts that length alone determines buckling. Axial force in a rail comes from the following equation: N = E*A*a*dT Where: N = axial force A = cross sectional area of rail E = Young's modulus of steel a = the temperature expansion coefficent of steel dT = the temperature change from the nuetral temperature (the temperature the rail was anchored in place at. As you can see, it is entirely independent of the length of the rail. Movement of the track is resisted by the ballast both laterally and in parallel. Tracks generally buckle laterally because the resistance is less in that direction (makes intuitive sense - the resistance comes from the area of the ties, which is larger in the parallel direction). Now when there is an insulated joint, assume that there is no axial force at that point (sometimes the case after lots of traffic). The axial force builds up as a step function directly related to the axial resistance of the track at each tie. However it stops building up when it reaches the overall axial force in the very long rail which I showed how to calculate before. It is this property which allows welded rail to be used anywhere in the world, irregardless of temperature. What is important is to control the neutral temperature at which the rail is placed in track. By locating this correctly, the engineer can avoid both buckling and pull aparts given the highest expected increases and decreases in temperature and the various resistances of the track. In some places of extreme variation, such as Siberia, where temperatures can range from -80 F to 100 F in a year, it is necessary to unanchor and heat or cool the rail during the spring and fall to adjust its neutral temperature. For more information, I recommend looking up the article by Dr. Arnold Kerr in the Bulletin of the American Railway Engineering Association, 1978, on this very subject. As an aside, the same principals apply to Continuous concrete pavements in roads and runways. Andrew Byler
  

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  • Subject: Re: Welded Rail - Real Facts vs. Myths
  • Message Number: 755577
  • Posted by: Nathan
  • Date: Wed Jun 11 17:25:26 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Welded Rail - Real Facts vs. Myths posted by Andrew Byler on June 11, 1997 at 16:15:31: Ok, I always thought that rails buckled towards the point of least resistance, so if rails were not spiked down, but held in "spring clips" that allowed expansion in the direction the rail went, not to the side, the rail would keep it's form, just expand at the end of the trackwork? (Sorry, I'm not making sense, am I)
    

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    • Subject: Re: Welded Rail - Real Facts vs. Myths
    • Message Number: 755580
    • Posted by: Bingo
    • Date: Wed Jun 11 19:45:01 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Welded Rail - Real Facts vs. Myths posted by Nathan on June 11, 1997 at 17:25:26: What about the new floating track technique that is being implemented into rail engineering? If the rails are mounted on separate slabs of concrete and have the vibration-absorbing rubber underneath, would that not compensate for any type of rail distortion?
      

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      • Subject: Re: Welded Rail - Real Facts vs. Myths
      • Message Number: 755597
      • Posted by: Steve
      • Date: Wed Jun 11 21:49:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Welded Rail - Real Facts vs. Myths posted by Andrew Byler on June 11, 1997 at 16:15:31: When you say you are a railroad enginneer, you mean other than a locomotive engineer. I am not an engineer so I will bow to your expertise. However, over the past two decades, I have on more than one occassion, seen buckled rails during extremes in temp. I also know that on the Manhhattan bridge, there are several 'expansion' joints in the tracks. Are the buckkled rails and the expansion joints on the bridge mirages???
        

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        • Subject: Re: Welded Rail - Real Facts vs. Myths
        • Message Number: 755602
        • Posted by: Nathan
        • Date: Wed Jun 11 23:40:45 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: Welded Rail - Real Facts vs. Myths posted by Steve on June 11, 1997 at 21:49:06: Ok, now, like what was being said, rails buckle on points of structual weakness, everything from metal fatigue to irregularities in the ties. If you are seeing buckled rails it is probably because a)the tracks are over 70 years old, ties/spikes have rusted out b)you are on a potent hallucinegen. One thing that I was reading up on was bombardier's ART rail fixation technique: rails are held in by a spring clip and the spring clip rests on an elastometric pad (an over-engineered concrete "square") This seems to allow for expansion, but it prevents lateral expansion.
          

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          • Subject: Re: Welded Rail - Real Facts vs. Myths
          • Message Number: 755603
          • Posted by: Nathan
          • Date: Wed Jun 11 23:43:23 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: Welded Rail - Real Facts vs. Myths posted by Bingo on June 11, 1997 at 19:45:01: Yeah, like Spadina LRT in TO? Yeah, that was what I was getting at in my last post, they've used it in Vancouver for years and I have yet to see a buckled rail, i think the premise is to control the expansion. Anyway..
            

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            • Subject: Re: Welded Rail - Real Facts vs. Myths
            • Message Number: 755614
            • Posted by: Andrew Byler
            • Date: Thu Jun 12 14:24:07 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: Welded Rail - Real Facts vs. Myths posted by Steve on June 11, 1997 at 21:49:06: Steve, By Railroad Engineer, I mean I am an engineer of railroad tracks and structures. Call me a Railway Civil Engineer if that makes more sense. I am currently studying for my Master's in this area at Delaware. You are not hallucinating when you see expansion joints or buckled rails. Expansion joints are generally used to isolate bridges from the rest of the railroad. This is desirable, because buckling is definitely not something you would like to have occur near a bridge. Also, it is desirable to isolate the bridge from the enormous axial forces in the rail, which it might exert on the bridge structure. These forces can rise as high as 125 tons (250,000 lbs). As you can imagine, bridges only see those sorts of forces under impact from a derailed train or a runaway ship, or similar problems. Generally such disasters take down the bridge, because they are simply not able to withstand such enormous loads. Buckling, as I explained, occurs when the neutral temperature is set too low. When this happens, and a temperature increase greater than that which is safe occurs, the track on longer has one equilibrium position, but three instead. One is the undisturbed straight position, which is unstable (hence the buckling), another is the unstable buckled position, which is slightly buckled from the normal, and a third is the stable buckled position, which is the dramatic pictures you have seen, freuqently with a derailed train nearby. Not to get into too long a discussion over, this, but the whole things is pretty easily determiend using a typical euler buckling determination. You can look this up in a standard Structural Engineering handbook. One other cause of buckling is the disturbing of the neutral temperature of the track. This occurs when residual axial stresses build up in the rail from repeated heating and cooling, creep forces, and braking and acceleration forces from the trains. These residual stresses change the nuetral temperature by changing the temperature at which 0 axial force is located in the rail. Unfortunately, they generally change the temperature downwards, by as much as 25 or 30 F. As the safe temperature increase is generally around an increase of 40 or 50 F, and neutral temperature is usually 85 or 90 F, you can see that a hot day of 105 F will probably be associated with a buckling problem. This is why speed limits are put on trains on days over 95 F (esp. because the forces they create in the rails will disturb the track beneath them from undisturbed but unstable state to a stable buckled state). A final cause of buckling is found in switches. At a switch, four rails with axial force N each come together as two rails which ultimately will have axial force N each. As you can see, this doesn't add up, so the ballast is doing a lot of work resisting the axial expansion of 2N which is distributed over the 100 or 200 ft. on either side of a turnout. This heightened axial force at turnouts is the direct cause of much of the buckling problems which railroads suffer from. Andrew Byler
              

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              • Subject: Re: Welded Rail - Real Facts vs. Myths
              • Message Number: 755657
              • Posted by: Bingo
              • Date: Fri Jun 13 09:38:11 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]Re: Welded Rail - Real Facts vs. Myths posted by Nathan on June 11, 1997 at 23:43:23: Nathan, you may have heard that TO is getting a new subway line scheduled for completion in the year 2002. It's the Sheppard-Yonge line, and it is being constructed right along where I live. It will be built entirely with floating track, will run to Don Mills Rd., (They needed to include a suburban, ass-tight, teeny-boppery hangout mall at the end of the route)and will have a connection with GO at Leslie station. 216 T-1 Bombardier Compagnie cars have been purchased, and some have arrived and are now in service. They're really quiet because they run on AC motors. When the thing is parked at a station, it goes completely silent!
                

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Thread title: What is with the word "guideway"? (755578)
Started on Wed Jun 11 17:29:53 1997, by Nathan

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• Subject: What is with the word "guideway"?
• Message Number: 755578
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Wed Jun 11 17:29:53 1997
  
  Ok, what is with the word "guideway"? I always thought that that word only applied to either A)the trackwork for MAG-LEV trains or B)the trackwork for hybrid technologies that run on steel rails but use linear induction motors. Now, while politicians are bombarding my area with light rail promises, they make mention of parts being on an elevated "guideway", yet this would be conventional light rail and not LIM powered... Help... :(
  

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Thread title: PATH Subway System (755579)
Started on Wed Jun 11 19:29:10 1997, by Bingo

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• Subject: PATH Subway System
• Message Number: 755579
• Posted by: Bingo
• Date: Wed Jun 11 19:29:10 1997
  
  I live in Toronto, Canada, but I return to New York every once in a while because it is such a wicked city! I especially like the subway system, which is so much more complicated than the ones we have here is Toronto and Montreal. While in New York, I took the PATH system which from my friends house which is in New Jersey. I noticed that the system runs for 24 hrs and every fifteen minutes, which is unheard of here! ( We don't have the population nor the resources i.e money )If the system runs all the time, how do the repairpeople do regular maintenance like replacing tracks and ties and stuff? The TTC does everything at night and in stages, but that can't be possible on a large scale subway like the PATH and MTA. Or can it?
  

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  • Subject: Re: PATH Subway System
  • Message Number: 755583
  • Posted by: John
  • Date: Wed Jun 11 19:45:50 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]PATH Subway System posted by Bingo on June 11, 1997 at 19:29:10: Oh it's possable. And when it happens, trust me - you'll know!! During construction on the New York City Subway, trains are often rerouted, have limited service, or are somehow modified. On the PATH system, which is dwarfed by the subway, shuttle bus service is often offered in place of rail service. Rerouting is rare on the PATH.
    

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    • Subject: Re: PATH Subway System
    • Message Number: 755584
    • Posted by: Andrew Huie
    • Date: Wed Jun 11 19:53:52 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]PATH Subway System posted by Bingo on June 11, 1997 at 19:29:10: With PATH, they either go with buses or (apparently more often) they run the trains less frequently (30 min. intervals) while work is being done, generally during off hours. With fewer trains, they can then close off one track and run all the trains on the other track. They did this last Sunday near Hoboken.
      

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      • Subject: Re: PATH Subway System
      • Message Number: 755586
      • Posted by: Bingo
      • Date: Wed Jun 11 19:59:44 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: PATH Subway System posted by John on June 11, 1997 at 19:45:50: Thank you for your quick reply! However, I find that interesting. When I was riding the train, I noticed a lot of curving, open tunnels and plenty of crossovers which would make it seem like they were planning for a lot of rerouting within the system. Why would they not take advantage of this?
        

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        • Subject: Re: PATH Subway System
        • Message Number: 755594
        • Posted by: David Pirmann
        • Date: Wed Jun 11 20:50:25 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: PATH Subway System posted by Bingo on June 11, 1997 at 19:59:44: In the tunnel sections, PATH has only one crossover outside the terminal areas. That one crossover in the tunnels is just west of Grove St. What they usually do (in fact, it seems like every weekend) they run 30 minute service on the lines with single-tracking. There's not much "rerouting" they can do because the system is so small. For what it's worth, I haven't seen shuttle service in a few months. When they do it, it's late at night. --Dave (daily PATH rider)
          

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          • Subject: Re: PATH Subway System
          • Message Number: 755608
          • Posted by: Mark S Feinman
          • Date: Thu Jun 12 12:33:09 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]PATH Subway System posted by Bingo on June 11, 1997 at 19:29:10: Yes, it's possible and done quite often on the NY subway, even though its a 24 hour operation. Work is typically done during non-rush hours. Express trains may be rerouted over local tracks or vice versa to accomodate the work schedule. During off or night-time hours, bus service might be substituted or the trains may run less often or might be broken up into separate services where a shuttle might run where the work is being done. In some instances, routes are closed for the duration of the project, such as the Mahnattan Bridge south side reconstruction. The N runs through the tunnel and local in Manhattan where it normally would run over the bridge and express in Manhattan. The Q which would also run via the N line in Manhattan runs via 6th Ave to 21st - Queensbridge. The M line which used to run to Coney Island via the Brighton Line, now runs to Chambers St or 9th Av - 39th st on the B line or Bay parkway on the B line. In other instances, temporary platforms might be erected over local tracks making the express tracks "local" as was done in the recently completed rehab of the Queens Blvd viaduct on the #7. This completely closes the local platform and all trains would run local through the construction area. This was also done on the Brighton Line a few years back. Where lines are redundant, one line might run an abbrevated service to a temporary terminal. Recently I rode the #2 from 241 St - 149 St Grand Concourse. During the track work, the #5, which is redundant with the 2 between these stations, was terminating at 149th, and #2 trains were single tracked between 149 st and Jackson Ave. The longer headways permitted the single tracking of this section of the line. Finally, sometimes trackwork offers the rare opportunity to ride portions of the subway that are normally not in revenue service. In 1982, while I attended NYU. the Brooklyn-bound D train ran from Bway -Lafayette through the portion of the Chyrstie St connection formerly used by the K train through Essex St onto the Williamsburgh Bridge. The train reversed direction and went through Essex St and the Nassau St loop via Tunnel to Dekalb Ave and resumed its normal route to Brighton Beach, avoiding the Manhattan Bridge altogether. --Mark
            

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            • Subject: Re: PATH Subway System
            • Message Number: 755620
            • Posted by: Jay Yudof
            • Date: Thu Jun 12 16:07:23 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]PATH Subway System posted by Bingo on June 11, 1997 at 19:29:10: 1) Just as an add'l pointer to Mr. Feinman's discussion of the volume of diversions, you may want to visit www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/Subway/subsrvno.htm, which documents the (mainly night and weekend) detours which are in effect in the system. 2) (I don't have the title handy here) there is a book, readily available in railfan-oriented book sources, which is the history of the Hudson & Manhattan railroad, which is what PATH was called from when it opened ab't 90 years ago until the Prt Authority took it over 3) As an intermittent weekend visitor to manhattan, I can attest to the frequency with which PATH weekend service is disrupted, including the dreaded 30-minute headways. I often ride NJ Transit all the way n, despite higher cost and apparent longer travel time, to avoid the PATH weekend run-around.
              

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              • Subject: Re: PATH Subway System
              • Message Number: 755675
              • Posted by: Andrew Huie
              • Date: Fri Jun 13 20:31:43 1997
                
                In Reply to: [6]Re: PATH Subway System posted by Mark S Feinman on June 12, 1997 at 12:33:09: re: former 'K' portion of the Chrystie St connection When I was taking the F train northbound into Bway-Lafayette, I saw sheet metal where the tunnel should be. Do they ever intend to use it, even for work trains, or will they tear it up completely?
                

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Thread title: Re: LIC to Jamaica (was: An Amazing Piece...) (755582)
Started on Wed Jun 11 19:45:42 1997, by Andrew Huie

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• Subject: Re: LIC to Jamaica (was: An Amazing Piece...)
• Message Number: 755582
• Posted by: Andrew Huie
• Date: Wed Jun 11 19:45:42 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: An Amazing Piece of Machinery posted by Todd Glickman on June 10, 1997 at 14:02:03: I rode on that line too, and I also recommend it. And that "nowhere" feeling isn't restricted to Forest Park - I kind of feel the whole line is in the middle of nowhere! 8-) And keep your eyes out for Penny Bridge and Haberman or you're likely to miss 'em! 8-) On a related note, are the LIRR parlor cars running this summer? Can anyone tell me if they are worth trying out? And will they be running on the LIC-to-Jamaica run?
  

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Thread title: Secret Code?? (755599)
Started on Wed Jun 11 22:02:05 1997, by Jim

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• Subject: Secret Code??
• Message Number: 755599
• Posted by: Jim
• Date: Wed Jun 11 22:02:05 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Welded Rail - Facts posted by Nathan on June 08, 1997 at 16:50:58: What does PHHhhBBB stand for. Is that some sort of Canadian recognition code?
  

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  • Subject: Re: Secret Code??
  • Message Number: 755604
  • Posted by: nathan
  • Date: Wed Jun 11 23:54:43 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Secret Code?? posted by Jim on June 11, 1997 at 22:02:05: no, it's the sound you get when you stick your tongue out, close your lips and blow! (also known as the "strawberry"
    

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    • Subject: Re: Secret Code??
    • Message Number: 755629
    • Posted by: John
    • Date: Thu Jun 12 16:47:48 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Secret Code?? posted by nathan on June 11, 1997 at 23:54:43: Also known as the Bronx Cheer.
      

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Thread title: Ankara Subway (was RE: Welded Rail - Facts) (755601)
Started on Wed Jun 11 23:00:42 1997, by John

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• Subject: Ankara Subway (was RE: Welded Rail - Facts)
• Message Number: 755601
• Posted by: John
• Date: Wed Jun 11 23:00:42 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Welded Rail - Facts posted by Steve on June 11, 1997 at 22:00:05: What is the Ankara subway like? How does it compare to New York? Do Armenians have to sit in the back of the trains (a little joke, since I am Armenian and since the Turks have a history of treating the Armenians like shit).
  

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  • Subject: Re: Ankara Subway (was RE: Welded Rail - Facts)
  • Message Number: 755605
  • Posted by: Nathan
  • Date: Wed Jun 11 23:58:30 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Ankara Subway (was RE: Welded Rail - Facts) posted by John on June 11, 1997 at 23:00:42: Ok, here you go. To set the record straight, I was using Ankara as an example of SELTRAC moving block signalling! I don't know if Ankara is even operating yet! All I know is that the cars are built by bombardier and resemble the H-Series trains on the toronto tube, with the exception that in ANkara the front of the trains only has 2 windows (one on the end door and one observation window)...
    

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Thread title: Newark City Subway (755611)
Started on Thu Jun 12 13:31:45 1997, by Charlie Bonaire

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• Subject: Newark City Subway
• Message Number: 755611
• Posted by: Charlie Bonaire
• Date: Thu Jun 12 13:31:45 1997
  
  Hi everyone, I'm new here and am glad to have found fellow subway enthusiasts. I grew up in Newark and of course have always loved its PCC cars on the City Subway line. I have found a couple sites dealing with this line (on nycsubway.org) but not enough to answer my questions about discontinued branch lines, etc. Does anyone know of a resource I could try? Thanks for any help. Charlie Bonaire
  

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  • Subject: Newark City Subway
  • Message Number: 759228
  • Posted by: Charlie Bonaire
  • Date: Thu Nov 20 19:42:56 1997
    
    Finally found John H. Riley's book, "The Newark City Subway Lines." Most comprehensive in most respects (especially the Cedar Street Subway), but it provided almost no information about the transformation of the old Morris Canal into the City Subway route. Can anyone point me to a source of information for that? I've tried a web search but came up empty. Also, as the scholarship found here is unparalleled, I'll submit this puzzler: If anyone who owns this book recognizes the location pictured on the front cover, please clue me in, as it isn't explained inside. All I know is it's somewhere on the Central Line. Thanks for any help.
    

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Thread title: Re: New Sanitary Product for Women Using Subway Restrooms (755612)
Started on Thu Jun 12 13:58:45 1997, by Peter Rosa

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• Subject: Re: New Sanitary Product for Women Using Subway Restrooms
• Message Number: 755612
• Posted by: Peter Rosa
• Date: Thu Jun 12 13:58:45 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]New Sanitary Product for Women Using Subway Restrooms posted by Bill Cicio on June 12, 1997 at 10:39:41: Well, it's clear to me that the person who made the original posting isn't too familiar with the subway ... otherwise, the title would've been "New
  

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Thread title: Portland MAX (755613)
Started on Thu Jun 12 14:00:36 1997, by Nathan

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• Subject: Portland MAX
• Message Number: 755613
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Thu Jun 12 14:00:36 1997
  
  Ok, does anyone have the exact ridership figures for the Portland Eastside MAX line? I am in the middle of doing some light rail research (basically whether or not to support local politicians who realize they have to suck up because people are pissed off about highway construction..) Does anyone know when the Westside MAX will be completed?
  

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  • Subject: Re: Portland MAX
  • Message Number: 755617
  • Posted by: Bryan Layne
  • Date: Thu Jun 12 15:33:30 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Portland MAX posted by Nathan on June 12, 1997 at 14:00:36: The complete Westside MAX project is scheduled to be finished and running revenue trains by September,1998.
    

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    • Subject: Re: Portland MAX
    • Message Number: 755689
    • Posted by: Bob Wr
    • Date: Sat Jun 14 12:50:47 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Portland MAX posted by Nathan on June 12, 1997 at 14:00:36: Have you tried contacting Tri-Met's website www.tri-met.org? It has lots of useful information.
      

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Thread title: how fast? (755615)
Started on Thu Jun 12 14:25:53 1997, by Nathan

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• Subject: how fast?
• Message Number: 755615
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Thu Jun 12 14:25:53 1997
  
  Does anyone know the regular operating speed of PATH trains? I think PATH is one of the funkiest little railroads...:)
  

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  • Subject: Re: how fast?
  • Message Number: 755618
  • Posted by: Fitz
  • Date: Thu Jun 12 15:39:51 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]how fast? posted by Nathan on June 12, 1997 at 14:25:53: Maximum speed limits:40 MPH within the tunnels.(It seems faster due to the close clearances.) In open areas:55 MPH from the Hackensack Drawbridge to Hudson Tower.
    

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Thread title: Sea Beach Line (755616)
Started on Thu Jun 12 15:01:11 1997, by Charles

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• Subject: Sea Beach Line
• Message Number: 755616
• Posted by: Charles
• Date: Thu Jun 12 15:01:11 1997
  
  Does Anyone know what is being done on the Sea Beach express tracks? I have heard that the MTA plans to remove the south bound track. The TA is currently testing the AC R38's on these tracks after 3:30pm on weekdays between Kings Highway and 18th Avenue.
  

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  • Subject: Re: Sea Beach Line
  • Message Number: 755623
  • Posted by: M.J.S.
  • Date: Thu Jun 12 16:13:25 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Sea Beach Line posted by Charles on June 12, 1997 at 15:01:11: What do you mean by an AC R-38? An R-38 with AC motors?
    

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    • Subject: Re: Sea Beach Line
    • Message Number: 755636
    • Posted by: Zack
    • Date: Thu Jun 12 19:22:54 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Sea Beach Line posted by M.J.S. on June 12, 1997 at 16:13:25: Air Conditioning mabye?
      

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      • Subject: Re: Sea Beach Line
      • Message Number: 755648
      • Posted by: M.J.S.
      • Date: Thu Jun 12 22:00:34 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Sea Beach Line posted by Zack on June 12, 1997 at 19:22:54: All of them have Air Conditioning now. If he meant with ACing he wouldn't have said anything
        

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Thread title: Elevated Stations (755621)
Started on Thu Jun 12 16:09:18 1997, by Timothy

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• Subject: Elevated Stations
• Message Number: 755621
• Posted by: Timothy
• Date: Thu Jun 12 16:09:18 1997
  
  Does anyone know of any web sights that include photos of New York City elevated stations and structures, both past and present (including Bronx, Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Queens)? I've noticed that many of the old elevated stations are very ornate, and have elaborately detailed cast iron railings around the platforms, as well as the stairways. Is there any way I can obtain photos of some of those stations? Right now, I'm mostly interested in Brooklyn elevateds, as well as the 6th, and 9th Avenue Els in Manhattan. I do have photos of the 3rd Avenue El, including the book, "By the El". Also, I remember seeing a Levi's 501 jeans commercial back in the mid 1980's, in which shows a group of people standing and dancing to the commercial's rap-like jingle, on what appeared to be the stairs to an elevated station. The railings on the stairs were very ornate, but looked somewhat derelict. When I was in New York City back in April of this year, I saw the now closed stairways at 155th St. and 8th Ave., that lead up to the Macombs Dam Bridge. Those stairways looked very much like the ones in the Levi's commercial. Can anyone tell me if the 155th St. stairways were the ones in the commercial? Hope someone can answer my questions. Thank you very much, Timothy
  

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  • Subject: Re: Elevated Stations
  • Message Number: 755638
  • Posted by: Bryan Layne
  • Date: Thu Jun 12 19:37:49 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Elevated Stations posted by Timothy on June 12, 1997 at 16:09:18: Maybe there could be a section of NEW YORK SUBWAY RESOURCES with pictures of various elevated station designs throughout the system..........
    

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    • Subject: Re: Elevated Stations
    • Message Number: 755677
    • Posted by: Dave Pirmann
    • Date: Fri Jun 13 21:02:54 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Elevated Stations posted by Bryan Layne on June 12, 1997 at 19:37:49: We got the space-- you up for a field trip? :) --Dave
      

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      • Subject: Re: Elevated Stations
      • Message Number: 755724
      • Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      • Date: Mon Jun 16 16:53:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Elevated Stations posted by Dave Pirmann on June 13, 1997 at 21:02:54: By field trip, what did you have in mind? The stretch of ex BERR on Fulton St. between Alabama ave and Crescent street I hope. By the way, I've been out of circulation for about eight weeks for Cancer surgery; It's good to be back among felow subway nuts.
        

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Thread title: Re: What is with the word (755622)
Started on Thu Jun 12 16:10:49 1997, by Jay Yudof

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• Subject: Re: What is with the word
• Message Number: 755622
• Posted by: Jay Yudof
• Date: Thu Jun 12 16:10:49 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]What is with the word posted by Nathan on June 11, 1997 at 17:29:53: Certain words have a vogue in the business. All the traffic reporters like to refer to the "route 1 corridor", when they really mean just the single highway. Trolley cars cost an order of magnitude less than Light Rail Vehicles.
  

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Thread title: I GOTZ A QUESTION HEA! (755624)
Started on Thu Jun 12 16:23:58 1997, by Name

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• Subject: I GOTZ A QUESTION HEA!
• Message Number: 755624
• Posted by: Name
• Date: Thu Jun 12 16:23:58 1997
  
  HELLO EVERYBODY, DO ANY OF YOUSE LIVE IN THE SUBWAY? IF SO HOW DO YOU ACCESS DA NET?
  

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  • Subject: Re: I GOTZ A QUESTION HEA!
  • Message Number: 755625
  • Posted by: John
  • Date: Thu Jun 12 16:31:35 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]I GOTZ A QUESTION HEA! posted by Name on June 12, 1997 at 16:23:58: Yeah, man, we lives in the subway. Internet is available at 42nd St - Times Square, 34th St - Penn Station, and the World Trade Center subway stations.
    

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    • Subject: Re: I GOTZ A QUESTION HEA!
    • Message Number: 755628
    • Posted by: Name
    • Date: Thu Jun 12 16:40:47 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: I GOTZ A QUESTION HEA! posted by John on June 12, 1997 at 16:31:35: I GOTZ TA SEE DAT. WHERE DO I FIND THE INTERNET AT DOZE PLACES?
      

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      • Subject: Re: I GOTZ A QUESTION HEA!
      • Message Number: 755637
      • Posted by: Bryan Layne
      • Date: Thu Jun 12 19:33:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]I GOTZ A QUESTION HEA! posted by Name on June 12, 1997 at 16:23:58: I'd have to tell you holms...by the way you talk id have to say you live in the subway.Just wondering,are you meaning to talk like an idiot or are you really that stupid sounding?
        

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        • Subject: Re: I GOTZ A QUESTION HEA!
        • Message Number: 755641
        • Posted by: John
        • Date: Thu Jun 12 19:41:32 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: I GOTZ A QUESTION HEA! posted by Name on June 12, 1997 at 16:40:47: My man, it's a JOKE!! Wake up and smell the coffee for crying out loud!
          

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          • Subject: Re: I GOTZ A QUESTION HEA!
          • Message Number: 755643
          • Posted by: Nathan
          • Date: Thu Jun 12 19:52:12 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: I GOTZ A QUESTION HEA! posted by John on June 12, 1997 at 16:31:35: No Jon, you forget one thing. Internet is also at Bway Jnction and remember, the Internet at the World Trade Center is provided by PATH and so, as expected it is cheaper due to heavy subsidies...
            

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            • Subject: Re: I GOTZ A QUESTION HEA!
            • Message Number: 755649
            • Posted by: name
            • Date: Thu Jun 12 22:01:51 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: I GOTZ A QUESTION HEA! posted by Bryan Layne on June 12, 1997 at 19:33:06: HEY, I REEZENT THAT.
              

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              • Subject: Re: I GOTZ A QUESTION HEA!
              • Message Number: 755721
              • Posted by: Gary Jacobi
              • Date: Mon Jun 16 16:45:22 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]I GOTZ A QUESTION HEA! posted by Name on June 12, 1997 at 16:23:58: This is a very humorous mock question, and if I had seen it first I would have answered that the subway is like the armed services in that it's great to reminisce about it, but nobody in their right mind would want to live in it. I can't believe that your Brooklynese spelling offended some. I'm always glad to "hear" it, even in print.
                

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Thread title: Haven't seen you in 10 years. (755626)
Started on Thu Jun 12 16:32:49 1997, by Bill: The Dodo

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• Subject: Haven't seen you in 10 years.
• Message Number: 755626
• Posted by: Bill: The Dodo
• Date: Thu Jun 12 16:32:49 1997
  
  I haven't been to New York in 10 years and I plan to visit it soon. When I lived here I loved the subway. I feel really bad that I couldn't know cool things like car types, so I wan't to ask this about cars. What were all the cars that were around in 1987 classified as? Which still exist? Which are new? Which have been rebuilt after 1987? Which were rebuilt before? My favorite car is stainless steel, has a big blue stripe on the side, has bucketed seating, combination forward-back/sideways seating. What are these cars called? When were they built? (I know it was in the 70s) have they been rebuilt? Etc.
  

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  • Subject: Re: Haven't seen you in 10 years.
  • Message Number: 755635
  • Posted by: Zack
  • Date: Thu Jun 12 19:20:11 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Haven't seen you in 10 years. posted by Bill: The Dodo on June 12, 1997 at 16:32:49: i think you are talking about the R-33 cars
    

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    • Subject: Re: Haven't seen you in 10 years.
    • Message Number: 755639
    • Posted by: John
    • Date: Thu Jun 12 19:39:07 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Haven't seen you in 10 years. posted by Bill: The Dodo on June 12, 1997 at 16:32:49: The stainless steel cars you are referring to are called R-44 and R-46, and they operate on the BMT/IND (the lettered routes). The were rebuilt in the late 1980s, but the blue band is gone and other than that, they cosmetically stayed the same. A lot has changed since 1987. The last of the BMT/IND LAHT cars were retired from service in early 1993, but the IRT Redbirds are still running. A couple of new cars are the R-68 (similar in appearance to the R-44 and R-46, but they were built as singles and have a sharper curve on the side). The R-62s, which are the stainless steel cars for the IRT completed delivery about the same time that you left New York. A newer train is the R-110A and R-110B (which are test trains and the test bed for the future R-142 and R-143 subway car order). Also, all the graffitti is gone. Another train that has been completely overhauled are the R-32s (they were the ones with the blue doors and the straight, fluted sides). If you haven't seen a rebuilt R-32 or R-38, you probably won't recognize them and think they were a new train. The doors have been replaced with stainless steel doors, the interiors have been completely redone. Colors were changed from light blue and white to beige and gray. The fan-like air conditioning ducts have been replaced by two small vents running the length of the car on the ceiling. The light arrangement has also been changes and the straps have been replaced by bars. The same rebuilding job has been done to the R-40s (the ones with the slanted front) and the R-42s (the ones that were slightly bent on the sides). Also, all of the LAHT cars have been repainted in red (some of them were green in the 1980s, but no trains are currently painted in that color). The cars that have been retired from service between 1987 and now are these: the R-10s (BMT/IND cars with the small roof), R-12s and R-14s (IRT version of the R-10), R-16s (BMT/IND cars with the circular windows on the end doors), R-17s (IRT version of the R-16), R-21s and R-22s (IRT trains with the drop-sash windows on the end doors), and the R-27s and R-30s (similar to the R-16s, except that the seating is all-longitudinal and the end windows are square and don't open). Another thing: the drop-sash windows (like school bus windows) have been replaced on the majority of the LAHT cars with windows that have small, vents that hinge inward at the top of the window.
      

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      • Subject: Re: Haven't seen you in 10 years.
      • Message Number: 755640
      • Posted by: Bryan Layne
      • Date: Thu Jun 12 19:40:55 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Haven't seen you in 10 years. posted by Bill: The Dodo on June 12, 1997 at 16:32:49: I think you might mean the R-44 or R-46's.....they are stainless steal,but they dont have the blue stripe on the side anymore.
        

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        • Subject: Re: Haven't seen you in 10 years.
        • Message Number: 755647
        • Posted by: Bill=Dodo
        • Date: Thu Jun 12 21:55:45 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: Haven't seen you in 10 years. posted by Bryan Layne on June 12, 1997 at 19:40:55: Awww, the blue stripes gave the trains personality, but I also remember other trains with the stripes, have all stripes been removed? How about the "RedBirds" (that's how I think they're called) are they still around? Hopefully some steel cars are there.
          

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          • Subject: Re: Haven't seen you in 10 years.
          • Message Number: 755711
          • Posted by: Michael Berson
          • Date: Sun Jun 15 12:34:28 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: Haven't seen you in 10 years. posted by Bill=Dodo on June 12, 1997 at 21:55:45: I completely agree regarding the blue stripes. I didn't care much for the blue stripe on the old trains (pre R-32's) but stripe on the R-40M's, R-42's, R-44's and R-46's did give the trains personality. I also miss the blue doors on the R-32 and the single thin light blue stripe on the R-38's.
            

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            • Subject: Re: Haven't seen you in 10 years.
            • Message Number: 755725
            • Posted by: Gary Jacobi
            • Date: Mon Jun 16 17:02:22 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: Haven't seen you in 10 years. posted by John on June 12, 1997 at 19:39:07: A great retired car summary, John, but what does LAHT stand for. I deduce non-stainless steel from the context.
              

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              • Subject: Re: Haven't seen you in 10 years.
              • Message Number: 755736
              • Posted by: John
              • Date: Mon Jun 16 21:33:50 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]Re: Haven't seen you in 10 years. posted by Gary Jacobi on June 16, 1997 at 17:02:22: LAHT: Low Alloy High Tensile. And yes, LAHT cars are not stainless steel.
                

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Thread title: J/Z "EXPRESS" Service ??? (755633)
Started on Thu Jun 12 18:11:00 1997, by Garfield

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• Subject: J/Z "EXPRESS" Service ???
• Message Number: 755633
• Posted by: Garfield
• Date: Thu Jun 12 18:11:00 1997
  
  If anyone ever rides the J or Z train Manhattan bound just passing the Eastern Parkway stop, the Transit Authority has a middle track in place that's not in service to trains. The extra piece of middle track stretches far from Eastern Pkwy to Marcy Ave. It would a great idea if the Transit Authority or whomever is in charge of the line add express service from Marcy Ave all the way to Eastern Pkwy instead of the track just lying there accumulating rust. Face it, it will be a about 20 minute commute from Broad St. to Eastern Pkwy instead of 40 minutes presently.
  

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  • Subject: J/Z "EXPRESS" Service ???
  • Message Number: 755634
  • Posted by: Garfield
  • Date: Thu Jun 12 18:11:22 1997
    
    If anyone ever rides the J or Z train Manhattan bound just passing the Eastern Parkway stop, the Transit Authority has a middle track in place that's not in service to trains. The extra piece of middle track stretches far from Eastern Pkwy to Marcy Ave. It would a great idea if the Transit Authority or whomever is in charge of the line add express service from Marcy Ave all the way to Eastern Pkwy instead of the track just lying there accumulating rust. Face it, it will be a about 20 minute commute from Broad St. to Eastern Pkwy instead of 40 minutes presently.
    

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    • Subject: Re: J/Z "EXPRESS" Service ???
    • Message Number: 755646
    • Posted by: M.J.S.
    • Date: Thu Jun 12 21:51:31 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]J/Z "EXPRESS" Service ??? posted by Garfield on June 12, 1997 at 18:11:00: It would be a great Idea to extend the express service to Eastern Pkwy (it already runs between Marcy Avenue and Myrtle Avenue).
      

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      • Subject: Re: J/Z "EXPRESS" Service ???
      • Message Number: 755652
      • Posted by: max
      • Date: Fri Jun 13 02:23:26 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: J/Z "EXPRESS" Service ??? posted by M.J.S. on June 12, 1997 at 21:51:31: Even better, here's something that can be done to service central Queens. There are old abandon tracks that run by the "A" train as it leaves the Rockaways spur. It would be great to have a new train loop joining the J or E at Parsons/Archer, tying into the IRT and the A. If the A can be tied into the G past Hoyt (there is no crossover at Hoyt-Schermerhorn), central/se Queens would be serviced much better.
        

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        • Subject: Re: J/Z "EXPRESS" Service ???
        • Message Number: 755660
        • Posted by: M.J.S.
        • Date: Fri Jun 13 11:56:14 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: J/Z "EXPRESS" Service ??? posted by max on June 13, 1997 at 02:23:26: The old LIRR Rockaway Line doesn't come in anywhere near the Archer Avenue Line. As for tying into the IRT, I've said it once and I'll say it again: IRT AND BMT/IND EQUIPMENT IS NOT COMPATIBLE
          

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          • Subject: Re: J/Z "EXPRESS" Service ???
          • Message Number: 755663
          • Posted by: Peter Rosa
          • Date: Fri Jun 13 12:41:49 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: J/Z "EXPRESS" Service ??? posted by M.J.S. on June 13, 1997 at 11:56:14: Even though it doesn't come close to Archer Avenue, the old LIRR Rockaway line is far from useless. Among other things, it could be used to provide train service to JFK airport, or it could be tied into the Queens Blvd. subway lines to provide more cross-borough service. There probably are many other possibilities as well. Even though the line has been abandoned for many years, most if not all of the right-of-way is still intact.
            

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            • Subject: Re: J/Z "EXPRESS" Service ???
            • Message Number: 755688
            • Posted by: M.J.S.
            • Date: Sat Jun 14 12:35:47 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: J/Z "EXPRESS" Service ??? posted by Peter Rosa on June 13, 1997 at 12:41:49: Just to clear this up: I never said the Rockaway Line was useless and I am not familiar with the details of the area so I'm not qualified to make that judgment.
              

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              • Subject: Re: J/Z "EXPRESS" Service ???
              • Message Number: 755708
              • Posted by: Pat Villani
              • Date: Sun Jun 15 07:01:33 1997
                
                In Reply to: [6]J/Z "EXPRESS" Service ??? posted by Garfield on June 12, 1997 at 18:11:00: I don't know why they've discontinued the service, but the J train did run express from Eastern Parkway at least into the late 70's, back when the J was express during rush hour and the KK was the local. There were only two stops: Myrtle Avenue and Marcy Avenue. When the line used to terminate at 168th Street, the volume of riders from eastern Queens was fairly high. Quite a few people would continue make a connection to buses serving that area there. I guess that may have changed now that the route terminates at Parson's and Archer and the MTA doesn't feel the need is there any longer.
                

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                • Subject: Re: J/Z "EXPRESS" Service ???
                • Message Number: 755710
                • Posted by: Michael Berson
                • Date: Sun Jun 15 12:28:23 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [6]Re: J/Z "EXPRESS" Service ??? posted by M.J.S. on June 12, 1997 at 21:51:31: I think they stopped the express service between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway when the skip-stop service was introduced. Making either the J or Z express would probably upset some riders east of Eastern Parkway, because one line would have to remain as a local. How about this... The express tracks between Myrtle and Eastern Parkway could be used by trains to/from Canarsie. You could establish a new route beginning at Rockaway Parkway. After Atlantic Avenue, the train would take the un-used cutoff and ride the express tracks to Marcy Avenue. From there the trains would go over the Wiliamsburgh Bridge and take the un-used cutoff to 6th Avenue. This would be like the old K (KK) route except the train would run express in Brooklyn and terminate at Rockaway Parkway. The old K failed because it was too slow. This would give Broadway-Brooklyn service to Wall Street and Midtown. Any Thoughts??
                  

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Thread title: Subway Signs for Sale (755642)
Started on Thu Jun 12 19:48:04 1997, by Adam Weiss

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• Subject: Subway Signs for Sale
• Message Number: 755642
• Posted by: Adam Weiss
• Date: Thu Jun 12 19:48:04 1997
  
  I'm wondering if anybody has signs from the subway that they would like to sell. I am willing to look at almost any type of sign that anybody has for sale. I'm especially interested in the long rectangular station name signs that usually hang from the ceiling. I'm also wondering where to find out about subway auctions where they auction off old signs and the like. I was at one in the Transit Museum a few years ago but haven't been able to find one since. Anyone who would like to contact me about signs can reach me directly at adw7@cornell.edu Thanks!
  

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Thread title: Re: Welded Rail - Facts, to set the record straight (755645)
Started on Thu Jun 12 20:08:11 1997, by Nathan

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• Subject: Re: Welded Rail - Facts, to set the record straight
• Message Number: 755645
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Thu Jun 12 20:08:11 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Welded Rail - Facts posted by M.J.S. on June 12, 1997 at 16:00:16: OK!! ENOUGH ABOUT ANKARA!!! Listen, I just mentioned Ankara as an argument against someones theory that welded rail can only be as long as a signal block; I was using Ankara as an example of Moving Block Signalling!! (SELTRAC) It was an example! I don't even know if Ankara is in service yet! Maybe if i wanted to talk about Moving Block signalling I would have mentioned Vancouver, then no one would have cared... (Ah, the problem with living in a small city is that you must learn to love an equally small rapid transit system... *sigh*)
  

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  • Subject: Re: Welded Rail - Facts, to set the record straight
  • Message Number: 755650
  • Posted by: M.J.S.
  • Date: Thu Jun 12 22:05:33 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Welded Rail - Facts, to set the record straight posted by Nathan on June 12, 1997 at 20:08:11: No, lets please continue talking about Ankara. Did you know that before 1930 it was called Angora?...
    

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    • Subject: Re: Welded Rail - Facts, to set the record straight
    • Message Number: 755661
    • Posted by: M.J.S.
    • Date: Fri Jun 13 11:57:53 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Welded Rail - Facts, to set the record straight posted by M.J.S. on June 12, 1997 at 22:05:33: Ok, just forget it. I don't like this anymore.
      

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      • Subject: Re: Welded Rail - Facts, to set the record straight
      • Message Number: 755763
      • Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      • Date: Tue Jun 17 18:20:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Welded Rail - Facts, to set the record straight posted by M.J.S. on June 12, 1997 at 22:05:33: And they made sweaters out of it too, didn't they?
        

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Thread title: Re: (Yet) Another R-10 Question (755655)
Started on Fri Jun 13 08:21:44 1997, by Gerry O'Regan

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• Subject: Re: (Yet) Another R-10 Question
• Message Number: 755655
• Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
• Date: Fri Jun 13 08:21:44 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Another R-10 Question posted by WILLIAM A. PADRON on June 12, 1997 at 16:55:16: Do R-10 run in multiple unit with anything else? Obviously there aren't enough cars for a Historic train like the Low-Vs, R-1to9s or D types. These were a transitional fleet and well remembered for their unique appearance and their many years on the 'A' train.
  

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  • Subject: Re: (Yet) Another R-10 Question
  • Message Number: 755669
  • Posted by: WILLIAM A. PADRON
  • Date: Fri Jun 13 16:40:51 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: (Yet) Another R-10 Question posted by Gerry O'Regan on June 13, 1997 at 08:21:44: The R-10 cars were normally operated with other units of the same design usually in solid trains. They can, and had been, operated with other newer cars (i.e. R-16 to R-42 models) because they are compatible with the same SMEE type electrical and ME-42 braking systems. The R-10 cars had 4 motors per 100 M.P.H. each car, where as all the pre-WWII units and R-7A prototype car #1575 had 2 motors at 190 M.P.H. each car (in other words, there were never any mixed consists of that sort at all and not even be in any given consideration). All cars before the R-10's has AMUE ME-23 type systems. Sincerely, WILLIAM A. PADRON E.R.A. #5783 New York, N.Y.
    

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    • Subject: Re: (Yet) Another R-10 Question
    • Message Number: 755670
    • Posted by: WILLIAM A. PADRON
    • Date: Fri Jun 13 16:41:07 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: (Yet) Another R-10 Question posted by Gerry O'Regan on June 13, 1997 at 08:21:44: The R-10 cars were normally operated with other units of the same design usually in solid trains. They can, and had been, operated with other newer cars (i.e. R-16 to R-42 models) because they are compatible with the same SMEE type electrical and ME-42 braking systems. The R-10 cars had 4 motors per 100 M.P.H. each car, where as all the pre-WWII units and R-7A prototype car #1575 had 2 motors at 190 M.P.H. each car (in other words, there were never any mixed consists of that sort at all and not even be in any given consideration). All cars before the R-10's has AMUE ME-23 type systems. Sincerely, WILLIAM A. PADRON E.R.A. #5783 New York, N.Y.
      

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Thread title: Re: Sea Beach Line (TO MJS) (755664)
Started on Fri Jun 13 14:25:50 1997, by Charles

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• Subject: Re: Sea Beach Line (TO MJS)
• Message Number: 755664
• Posted by: Charles
• Date: Fri Jun 13 14:25:50 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Sea Beach Line posted by M.J.S. on June 12, 1997 at 16:13:25: Yes I mean AC Motors. I am trying to find out what the TA is doing with the tracks themselves.
  

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Thread title: IRT Model R110 Subway Cars (755667)
Started on Fri Jun 13 15:43:13 1997, by Phil Dominguez

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• Subject: IRT Model R110 Subway Cars
• Message Number: 755667
• Posted by: Phil Dominguez
• Date: Fri Jun 13 15:43:13 1997
  
  I was sickened to find that there were no photos of the R110A's Why wern't there any? Those are the coolest cars! Please E-mail your reply soon. Love, Phil Dominguez
  

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  • Subject: IRT Model R110 Subway Cars
  • Message Number: 755668
  • Posted by: Phil Dominguez
  • Date: Fri Jun 13 15:43:22 1997
    
    I was sickened to find that there were no photos of the R110A's Why wern't there any? Those are the coolest cars! Please E-mail your reply soon. Love, Phil Dominguez
    

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    • Subject: Re: IRT Model R110 Subway Cars
    • Message Number: 755691
    • Posted by: Nick
    • Date: Sat Jun 14 14:53:04 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: IRT Model R110 Subway Cars posted by David Pirmann on June 13, 1997 at 15:52:13: Your right, those cars are pretty cool! There's both an interior and exterior pic of it in the "New York City Subway Cars" Book. It shows the r110a running as the #2 train. Perhaps someone should scan those pics on here... -NICK
      

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      • Subject: Re: IRT Model R110 Subway Cars
      • Message Number: 755692
      • Posted by: Nick
      • Date: Sat Jun 14 14:53:17 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: IRT Model R110 Subway Cars posted by David Pirmann on June 13, 1997 at 15:52:13: Your right, those cars are pretty cool! There's both an interior and exterior pic of it in the "New York City Subway Cars" Book. It shows the r110a running as the #2 train. Perhaps someone should scan those pics on here... -NICK
        

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        • Subject: Re: IRT Model R110 Subway Cars
        • Message Number: 755695
        • Posted by: David Pirmann
        • Date: Sat Jun 14 19:31:00 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: IRT Model R110 Subway Cars posted by Nick on June 14, 1997 at 14:53:17: > Perhaps someone should scan those pics on here... Perhaps someone should do some reading on Copyright Law. There are a few pictures on this site that were in the Greller book or other books but they came to us by different sources. Sitting down with his book and a scanner isn't something that would go over well.... Besides the legality issue I'm sure Mr. Greller (whom I've met) would not appreciate his hard work being reproduced on the web for free. The last thing we need are people in the business upset with us. --Dave
          

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          • Subject: Re: IRT Model R110 Subway Cars
          • Message Number: 755700
          • Posted by: M.J.S.
          • Date: Sat Jun 14 22:37:36 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: IRT Model R110 Subway Cars posted by Nick on June 14, 1997 at 14:53:17: Is there a VRML view of subway cars (including the new R142) on the net? Now that would be cool.
            

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            • Subject: Re: IRT Model R110 Subway Cars
            • Message Number: 755709
            • Posted by: Philip Dominguez
            • Date: Sun Jun 15 08:37:05 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]IRT Model R110 Subway Cars posted by Phil Dominguez on June 13, 1997 at 15:43:13: Please disregard the last message that has my name on it. I Happen to dis-like the R-110a's and whoever used my name. -Phil
              

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              • Subject: Re: IRT Model R110 Subway Cars
              • Message Number: 755712
              • Posted by: l
              • Date: Sun Jun 15 17:36:05 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]Re: IRT Model R110 Subway Cars posted by Philip Dominguez on June 15, 1997 at 08:37:05: Why can't you consider the fact that someone might have the same name as you?
                

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                • Subject: Re: IRT Model R110 Subway Cars
                • Message Number: 755794
                • Posted by: Charles
                • Date: Thu Jun 19 11:13:22 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [6]Re: IRT Model R110 Subway Cars posted by David Pirmann on June 14, 1997 at 19:31:00: The answer to this dilemma is clear. Anyone who wants to contribute by putting R110A pictures Should try to obtain photos from some photographers whom reguarly attend the NY Division Electric Railroaders associaton Meeting. The Meeting is this Friday night at the college of insurance on Murray Street in downtown manhattan. Just ask around, I am sure that someone has pictures of the train. They are pretty common.
                  

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                  • Subject: Re: IRT Model R110 Subway Cars
                  • Message Number: 756830
                  • Posted by: David Pirmann
                  • Date: Mon Aug 25 19:53:36 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [6]IRT Model R110 Subway Cars posted by Phil Dominguez on June 13, 1997 at 15:43:13: I've never seen the R110A in service. If you have, maybe you could take some pictures of it for us. --Dave
                    

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Thread title: Toronto Tube (was Re: NYC screen saver ideas... (755678)
Started on Fri Jun 13 21:46:51 1997, by Nathan

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• Subject: Toronto Tube (was Re: NYC screen saver ideas...
• Message Number: 755678
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Fri Jun 13 21:46:51 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Subway screen saver ideas posted by Bingo on June 13, 1997 at 11:09:37: ACK!!! ATTACK OF THE EIGHTIES COLOUR SCHEME!!! I got some material from bombardier, basically a massive glossey nice covered adverisement to transit agencies, but It was talking about the various rapid transit cars they have manufactured. Ugghh!! The first demonstration ALRV (4900) was, yes, ORANGE!!! The TTC weant mad with Trudeau *vomits* style colours, the interiour of the GO Trains -orange, the interior of the Bloor Subway cars -orange... At least the blue-grey interiours of the H-3's are nice to look at, I'd rather ride those instead of the gross H-5's and 6's. Two things though: 1)Does the TTC have any of the old G-trains on property? Maybe for the system's 50th birthday in 2006 they (TTC) should look into painting a T-1 train in the old, red scheme (avec gold racing stripe) at least those cars had dignity!!!! 2)I'm going to be in TO this summer, and I haven't rode a streetcar since about 1984. What subway stations connect with streetcar lines? (Specifically the 501 queen, never been on an ALRV)
  

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  • Subject: Re: Toronto Tube (was Re: NYC screen saver ideas...
  • Message Number: 755686
  • Posted by: Bingo
  • Date: Sat Jun 14 12:24:45 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Toronto Tube (was Re: NYC screen saver ideas... posted by Nathan on June 13, 1997 at 21:46:51: The G cars were nice, weren't they? They always reminded me of Christmas (green and red interior) There are no G cars which I know of on property. Even the legendary car 5000 was scrapped! (Gasp) There are a couple of them at the Halton Rail Museum, which my friend Brian W. has visited. talk to him. Subway connections with streetcars. Keele, Englinton West (very cool), Bathurst, and soon Spadina, (new Spadina LRT) That's all that comes to mind right now. The 501 doesn't go to any station, it just goes to these two loop things at each end of the line. It's a fun ride, going by High Park and along the GO line, and you can ride it free of charge during rush hours (Proof of Payment). They've changed the interior of them GO trains to blue and white after this woman was like, raped, and they had to install the push-strip alarm system on all the cars (Gee, let's change the whole disgusting interior so it will be a pleasant environment for the next raping)
    

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    • Subject: Re: Toronto Tube (was Re: NYC screen saver ideas...
    • Message Number: 755772
    • Posted by: Nathan
    • Date: Wed Jun 18 16:19:44 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Toronto Tube (was Re: NYC screen saver ideas... posted by Bingo on June 14, 1997 at 12:24:45: When were the GO Cars interior changed to blue and white? Weren't the alarm strips always in the go cars? I remember when (In 1995) GO Cars were used to supplement west coast express cars in Vancouver until the WCE contract was completed, the alarm strips were there, just they had signs that said "do not use" or something. Now, does ANYONE have pictures of the old Aluminum G-Cars? I have NEVER seen one, and I would really like to!! I will be in TO this summer,and oops! Sorry, the 50th birthday is in 2004! D'oh!
      

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      • Subject: Re: Toronto Tube (was Re: NYC screen saver ideas...
      • Message Number: 755804
      • Posted by: Bingo
      • Date: Thu Jun 19 13:47:55 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Toronto Tube (was Re: NYC screen saver ideas... posted by Nathan on June 18, 1997 at 16:19:44: The GO trains originally did not have the strip-alarms because they were built by CN and they hadn't a clue about them, (nor did there seem to be the need) but after the incident, they were added. If you go on a GO car, you will see how obvious it is that they're add-on's. They just don't look right in their placement. The strip-alarm system in my opinion is a complete joke for GO trains because they're double deckers, and the train is so huge it would take very long for the staff to find the offending alarm. (The walk-through doors are also reaaaaaaally heavy!!) Why would you want to see the silver G's? Some of the muuuuuch older cars still in service in New York are far more fascinating and less depressing. (As I said before, they're now garbage trains. Oh god, I think I need another shot of my fluvoxamine)
        

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        • Subject: Re: Toronto Tube (was Re: NYC screen saver ideas...
        • Message Number: 755845
        • Posted by: Nathan
        • Date: Fri Jun 20 02:03:08 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: Toronto Tube (was Re: NYC screen saver ideas... posted by Bingo on June 19, 1997 at 13:47:55: No, the GO cars were built by the UTDC, not CN! besides, I know the doors are heavy, but one time in Van some woman got sick, pressed the alarm, and the conductor was there in about 2 minutes. Yeah, their double deck, they even have the alarms in the bathrooms! ("Help! My laxitive hasn't kicked in yet and I am in pain!). Hmmm, the GO Trains really need coffee bars... ANyway, I do not even know what the silver G's look like! That's why!
          

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          • Subject: Re: Toronto Tube (was Re: NYC screen saver ideas...
          • Message Number: 755871
          • Posted by: Bingo
          • Date: Fri Jun 20 15:57:17 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: Toronto Tube (was Re: NYC screen saver ideas... posted by Nathan on June 20, 1997 at 02:03:08: No way, that can't be! (I'm really, really sorry! Please don't hurt me!) The cars run on CN track, on the CN guage, and were manufactured by the same people who make the VIA Lr cars. The cars are pulled by the same CN locomotive that is used for their freight operations, (AmTrak and METRA use them too) and they also SOUND the same as the CN locomotives. Anyway, I get this sinking feeling i'm wrong, and I guess I'll have to ride the system and ask some questions to justify that. I do like that coffee idea! I want all the coffee that I can get on my way to HAMILTON and OSHAWA...
            

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            • Subject: Re: Toronto Tube (was Re: NYC screen saver ideas...
            • Message Number: 755876
            • Posted by: Nathan
            • Date: Fri Jun 20 16:33:06 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: Toronto Tube (was Re: NYC screen saver ideas... posted by Bingo on June 20, 1997 at 15:57:17: Exactly, they were made by the same people who made the Via LRC cars! CN Does not manufacture rolling stock! The Bi-level car (used on the go trains) was made by the UTDC (now part of bombardier). The engine that pulls the trains is made by GM EMD (electro-motive division i think) and has the designation F-59** something or other. Anyway, the Bi-level car was designed through a co-operative effort involving the government of ontario and the UTDC. This car and engine are rather popular, and are in service in Toronto (for which they were originally designed) Miami (tri-rail) Los Angeles (metrolink) San Diego (COASTER) San Jose (San Joaquin Rail corridor, something or other) and Vancouver (West Coast Express). The same base engine is used in (i believe) all of the above systems, with the exeption that Vancouver and LA's engines have some sleek streamlined fiberglass shell (which makes them look pretty good) and the other systems use the un-streamlined version. Proof that they are not made by CN is seen in Vancouver where the WCE Trains use the Canadian Pacific right of way, and are operated/staffed by CP crews, except in the coffee bars and at the stations. Sorry!
              

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Thread title: IRT Track Connections to BMT/IND (755679)
Started on Fri Jun 13 22:21:10 1997, by Peggy Darlington

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• Subject: IRT Track Connections to BMT/IND
• Message Number: 755679
• Posted by: Peggy Darlington
• Date: Fri Jun 13 22:21:10 1997
  
  Rceently I rode the Low-V trip to Rockaway and have one question? How did the IRT trains get to the IND /BMT Track. There has to be track connections somewhere. I know the 7 connects with the N at Queensboro Plaza because they shop the 7 line cars at Coney island but what about the mainline IRT. ps-Thanks for the IND tile answer!
  

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  • Subject: Re: IRT Track Connections to BMT/IND
  • Message Number: 755680
  • Posted by: David Pirmann
  • Date: Fri Jun 13 22:47:18 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]IRT Track Connections to BMT/IND posted by Peggy Darlington on June 13, 1997 at 22:21:10: There is an article discussing this in [7]News Posts Index. --Dave
    

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    • Subject: Re: IRT Track Connections to BMT/IND
    • Message Number: 755693
    • Posted by: Peter Rosa
    • Date: Sat Jun 14 17:40:09 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]IRT Track Connections to BMT/IND posted by Peggy Darlington on June 13, 1997 at 22:21:10: Besides the Queensboro Plaza switch for the 7 train, there are two other connections between the IRT lines and the rest of the system - at the 207th Street yard in upper Manhattan, and between the Councourse (D train) and Jerome (4 train) yards in the Bronx.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: IRT Track Connections to BMT/IND
      • Message Number: 755714
      • Posted by: Steve
      • Date: Sun Jun 15 23:40:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]IRT Track Connections to BMT/IND posted by Peggy Darlington on June 13, 1997 at 22:21:10: The two main connections between the B division and the A division are the 207th Street flyover which connects the #1 B'Way line with 207th St. Yard and 5 track in Concourse yard which leads to the #4 line south of Bedford Park. Please note that these connections are accomplished via yard connections while the one at Queenssboro Plaza does not. This is because the cars on the #7 line are equiped to operate with B division signals while no other IRT equipment is.
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: IRT Track Connections to BMT/IND
        • Message Number: 755717
        • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
        • Date: Mon Jun 16 09:51:25 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: IRT Track Connections to BMT/IND posted by Steve on June 15, 1997 at 23:40:16: It would make sense if 207th St. Shop (as opposed to Coney Island) was the primary overhaul/heavy repair site for the main line IRT cars since there is direct access. Is this the case?
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: IRT Track Connections to BMT/IND
          • Message Number: 755734
          • Posted by: Lefty
          • Date: Mon Jun 16 21:19:36 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: IRT Track Connections to BMT/IND posted by Gerry O'Regan on June 16, 1997 at 09:51:25: i happen to know this because im a 1/9 train person: the connection to the 207th street yard is one track that merges with the uptown 1/9 track just a few feet north of the end of the 207th st station platform. so if they wanted to use that track regularly it would greatly disrupt service at the 207th st stop..
            

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            • Subject: Re: IRT Track Connections to BMT/IND
            • Message Number: 755741
            • Posted by: Julio Perez
            • Date: Tue Jun 17 07:27:45 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: IRT Track Connections to BMT/IND posted by Steve on June 15, 1997 at 23:40:16: The 7 is the only A-division line equipped to handle B-division signals. Is it difficult (read: EXPENSIVE) to make the balance of the A-division compatible with B-division signals so that only one standard is required systemwide? Also, with the R-14xs coming into service into the 7 by century's end, will they still need those induction coils to tell the switches whether they are local or express trains?
              

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              • Subject: Re: IRT Track Connections to BMT/IND
              • Message Number: 755805
              • Posted by: Steve
              • Date: Thu Jun 19 13:49:24 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]Re: IRT Track Connections to BMT/IND posted by Julio Perez on June 17, 1997 at 07:27:45: The A division signals are different in the mechanical design. That is, the trip cocks & trippers are located on the cab side. In addition, the IRT home signal aspects are different from the B division aspects for the same indications. Chaos would result from any sudden changes. Currently, it is expected that the entire NYCt signal system will take 30 years to replace. This is why the R-142 will not be equipped to use the new signal system being implemented.
                

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                • Subject: Re: IRT Track Connections to BMT/IND
                • Message Number: 755806
                • Posted by: Steve
                • Date: Thu Jun 19 13:55:25 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [5]Re: IRT Track Connections to BMT/IND posted by Gerry O'Regan on June 16, 1997 at 09:51:25: This happens to be the case for the most part. Coney Island Overhaul shop handles cars from all of the B division lines except the A & C line. They also handle the #7 line cars. 207th St. Overhaul handles all of the A division cars except the #7 line . In addition, they also handle the A & C line cars.
                  

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Thread title: 55th anniversary of death of 2nd Ave El. (755681)
Started on Fri Jun 13 22:49:02 1997, by David Pirmann

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• Subject: 55th anniversary of death of 2nd Ave El.
• Message Number: 755681
• Posted by: David Pirmann
• Date: Fri Jun 13 22:49:02 1997
  
  UPN 9 news ran a story tonight (6/13/97) about a news conference that was held at City Hall which commemorated the passing of the 2nd Avenue El 55 years ago, and to reiterate the need for the construction of the 2nd Avenue Subway. So the idea isn't dead! --Dave
  

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  • Subject: Re: 55th anniversary of death of 2nd Ave El.
  • Message Number: 755698
  • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
  • Date: Sat Jun 14 20:01:57 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]55th anniversary of death of 2nd Ave El. posted by David Pirmann on June 13, 1997 at 22:49:02: Yes, but the best incentive to replace an eyesore is the eyesore itself! Fifty five years without Second Av. and forty two without Third Av. and there's still only one rapid transit service on the east side. Of course, if they lasted this long, they'd be preserved as landmarks by now with all the Victorian gingerbread and permanent fixtures. By 1960 there would have been so much pressure to build 2nd. Av Subway that Mayor Lindsay would have been out there himself with a shovel! And John might really have gotten to ride over the Queensboro Bridge.
    

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    • Subject: Re: 55th anniversary of death of 2nd Ave El.
    • Message Number: 755733
    • Posted by: Andrew Huie
    • Date: Mon Jun 16 21:19:11 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]55th anniversary of death of 2nd Ave El. posted by David Pirmann on June 13, 1997 at 22:49:02: I'd love to be optimistic about it, but my cynical side tells me, "election year". Once the election is over, everyone will conveniently forget the need for the 2nd Ave subway. *sigh* On a related note, do any signs still exist in the system mentioning the 2nd Ave el? I read years ago that such a sign was at 111th St on the 7 ("for lower Manhattan take the 2nd Ave el"), but I missed it. It is possible the sign is still there but they put a sticker on it, or has it been replaced completely?
      

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Thread title: A train (755683)
Started on Sat Jun 14 07:20:11 1997, by Sammy

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• Subject: A train
• Message Number: 755683
• Posted by: Sammy
• Date: Sat Jun 14 07:20:11 1997
  
  Can anyone tell me where that old spur for the LIRR Rockaway branch runs? I notice it by the A train when we turn and go towards the Rockaways. Also, when new subway cars are shipped in, where do they enter the system?
  

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  • Subject: Re: A train
  • Message Number: 755684
  • Posted by: Charles
  • Date: Sat Jun 14 09:22:04 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]A train posted by Sammy on June 14, 1997 at 07:20:11: In response to your second question, New subway cars are delivered near thrhrough the south Brooklyn railway cut near the 36 St. and 4th avenue station on the West End line. They typically go to Coney Island Yard for pre-service inspection.
    

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    • Subject: Re: A train
    • Message Number: 755713
    • Posted by: Steve
    • Date: Sun Jun 15 23:33:41 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]A train posted by Sammy on June 14, 1997 at 07:20:11: The Rockaway Branch of the LIRR is used by the A train from The Rockaways to Liberty Junction where the A train changes to the Fulton St. Line. The LIRR ROW continues north through Ozone Park and Across Atlantic Ave, At one time, there were connections to the Brooklyn Branch there. It continues to run parallel to Woodhaven Blvd. into Forest Hills where it joined the LIRR main line at the 'White Pot Underjump' (city bound).
      

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      • Subject: Re: A train
      • Message Number: 755769
      • Posted by: Peter Furuhashi
      • Date: Wed Jun 18 02:31:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: A train posted by Charles on June 14, 1997 at 09:22:04: This is probably a stupid question, but exactly how do the new subway cars arrive? By truck?
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: A train
        • Message Number: 755770
        • Posted by: Charles
        • Date: Wed Jun 18 09:51:59 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: A train posted by Peter Furuhashi on June 18, 1997 at 02:31:41: It is highly dependant on the equipment. The R46's arrived with trailer wheels in place of it's truck. The R68's were delivered by having SBK N-1 pull it on to the West End Line and down to Coney Island Yard. The R62's arrived in a similar way. I am not sure how the TA plans to have the R142's delivered.
          

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          • Subject: Re: A train
          • Message Number: 755775
          • Posted by: Gary Jacobi
          • Date: Wed Jun 18 16:47:56 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]A train posted by Sammy on June 14, 1997 at 07:20:11: Before 1965 I'm pretty sure all cars were delivered by car float to either the bush terminal area of brooklyn, or the dykman street facility in upper manhattan. This was at a time when most freight cars were delivered by car float. From what I read about "no traffic on the LIRR Bay Ridge branch", I must conclude that this no longer occurs. Do I smell the Teamsters again? Jeez, guys. I don't hate trucks, can't your union stop backstabbing everything that runs on rails?
            

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            • Subject: Re: A train
            • Message Number: 755783
            • Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
            • Date: Thu Jun 19 04:27:54 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: A train posted by Charles on June 18, 1997 at 09:51:59: By carfloat to NY Regional Rail (the "Cross Harbor") at Bush Terminal's 51st Street carfloat. Worth trying to see! Those who don't know should check out Bill Russel's Carfloat WWW Page [INLINE]
              

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              • Subject: Re: A train
              • Message Number: 755784
              • Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
              • Date: Thu Jun 19 04:34:21 1997
                
                In Reply to: [6]Re: A train posted by Charles on June 18, 1997 at 09:51:59: (Let me try that page tag again...) By carfloat to NY Regional Rail (the "Cross Harbor") at Bush Terminal's 51st Street carfloat. Worth trying to see! Those who don't know should check out Bill Russel's Carfloat WWW Page [7]
                

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                • Subject: Re: A train
                • Message Number: 755830
                • Posted by: Jim
                • Date: Thu Jun 19 17:35:57 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [5]Re: A train posted by Peter Furuhashi on June 18, 1997 at 02:31:41: The latest acquisition, the vacuum train was delivered by truck. I'm sure that much of the new equipment will be delivered by truck to 207th St.
                  

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                  • Subject: Re: A train
                  • Message Number: 755875
                  • Posted by: Bingo
                  • Date: Fri Jun 20 16:20:07 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [5]Re: A train posted by Peter Furuhashi on June 18, 1997 at 02:31:41: No, you're totally correct! And if they need to be shipped longer distances, they do it by ship. Same thing goes for streetcars.
                    

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Thread title: Re: Toronto G-trains/streetcar connections/more (755694)
Started on Sat Jun 14 19:26:33 1997, by Brian W

---

• Subject: Re: Toronto G-trains/streetcar connections/more
• Message Number: 755694
• Posted by: Brian W
• Date: Sat Jun 14 19:26:33 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Toronto Tube (was Re: NYC screen saver ideas... posted by Nathan on June 13, 1997 at 21:46:51: Bingo asked me to correct his horrible errors for him, as he is now hanging his head in shame! 1) The grey-blue interior subway cars, previously refered to as H-3's, are actually called H-1's. 2) Eglinton West, as well as Keele, has no connections with streetcars. What Bingo meant to say was St. Clair West, which connects with the 512, and Dundas West, connecting with the 504. Other stations he'd like to add are: Main St., Broadview, and Union, connecting with the Harbourfront LRT. A few other points... TTC subway's 50th birthday will actually be in 2004, not 2006, since the first subway line opened in 1954. There are actually a few G-trains at Davisville and Wilson yards, but they are the few aluminum silver-coloured ones that supplemented the red steel ones when the TTC made their original order. They have been stripped of their dignity and now serving as garbage trains. Painting a T-1 red is an excellent idea, especially if they would do this to T-1 #5000, since G #5000 was THE first car to arrive in Toronto, in 1952, and has now been unceremoniously scrapped. Be sure, Nathan, when you are in Toronto, to pick up a TTC Ride Guide. It lists everything about the system, has a complete route map, it's free, and available at most collector booths on the subway. Actually, if you want a copy mailed to you, e-mail me your mailing address at wolk@yesic.com One more thing, be sure to visit the year-old spectacular Downsview station. It is at the end of the Spadina Line, and makes a great ending to a mostly Trudeau-esque portion of the trip. (In fact, while riding an H-5 through St. Clair West, if you concentrate hard, you will see Trudeau in his bell-bottoms leading a pack of disco dancers across the opposite platform to the song "Disco Inferno".)
  

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Thread title: Toronto H-6's (755696)
Started on Sat Jun 14 19:40:28 1997, by Brian W

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• Subject: Toronto H-6's
• Message Number: 755696
• Posted by: Brian W
• Date: Sat Jun 14 19:40:28 1997
  
  Nathan, you mentioned earlier something about H-6's. What is an H-6 ? Do you mean the ones manufactured by UTDC that run on the Bloor-Danforth line with the reddish-orange doors? Also, is there such thing as an H-2, H-3 and H-4? One of these must be the ones that run on both lines that are mostly wood-grain, have numbers 55xx and early 56xx, and have nice vinyl cushy bench seats that, as Bingo says, "are sooooooo good on one's ass.", What are those called?
  

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  • Subject: Re: Toronto H-6's
  • Message Number: 755774
  • Posted by: Nathan
  • Date: Wed Jun 18 16:37:04 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Toronto H-6's posted by Brian W on June 14, 1997 at 19:40:28: Ok, there was an H-1, H-2, H-4, H-5, and H-6 (no H-3) the cars that you mention, 55XX and 56XX refers to H-2 to H-5 cars, so I am not sure which specific car you are talking about. The H-6's were built by UTDC between 1986 and 1990, but I am not sure, these are probably the icky orange cars, but I am not sure. (Oh, by the way, Spadina LRT opens July 27!)
    

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    • Subject: Re: Toronto H-6's
    • Message Number: 755798
    • Posted by: Bingo
    • Date: Thu Jun 19 13:06:10 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Toronto H-6's posted by Nathan on June 18, 1997 at 16:37:04: The H-6's (Thank you, they have a name!) were originally scheduled for delivery in 1986, but were held back with a serious flaw in their coupling system. They were released sometime later (I don't know when.)
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: Toronto H-6's
      • Message Number: 755849
      • Posted by: Nathan
      • Date: Fri Jun 20 02:19:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Toronto H-6's posted by Bingo on June 19, 1997 at 13:06:10: Weren't the H-6's withdrawn from service within the past 2 years because of some faulty axle that cause a train derailment outside (i believe, i am probably wrong) Kipling station? I heard the ttc did some ultrasound test on all the H-6 axles, but I do not know what the results were. Now! DOES ANYONE HAVE A PICTURE OF A SILVER "G"??? I'M DESPERATE TO KNOW WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE!!
        

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        • Subject: Re: Toronto H-6's
        • Message Number: 755870
        • Posted by: Bingo
        • Date: Fri Jun 20 15:42:18 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: Toronto H-6's posted by Nathan on June 20, 1997 at 02:19:40: Let's make a deal! I'll trade you a picture of the silver G's in their natural habitat (Davisville Yard) if you can give me information on whether TTC is planning on updating the LRV's anytime soon. We've done the trains, we've done the buses, now all that's left are the streetcars! (We'll let the Scarborough RT rot in hell, ahem hem)
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: Toronto H-6's
          • Message Number: 755879
          • Posted by: Nathan
          • Date: Fri Jun 20 16:47:47 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: Toronto H-6's posted by Bingo on June 20, 1997 at 15:42:18: No, the TTC is (as i know) pretty much taking a status quo approach to the LRV's. For example, the Spadina LRT is going to use regular C/ALRV's when it establishes a through service with the Harborfront LRT. On the track upgrade side, I know that when the TTC replaces LRV trackwork it is now standard to replace the old rails with "floating track" to reduce noise and improve the ride. One thing though, some of the Subway stations are in dire need of a face-lift, especially eye-sore stations like Lansdowne on the BD. Yeccchhhh!!!! Anyway, the Scarberia RT rotting in hell? Hmmm, the TTC does not do a very good job at maintaining the SRT. Wait, not maintenance wise, but modifications to the technology. The technology used (linear induction motors, cab signalling) was relatively untried before the SRT, and the only city that has had real success with that technology is probably vancouver (sorry for tooting my own horn, living in a small city means you must learn to love an equally small transit system, oh well, still beats LA). BUT.... BC Transit had to make major modifications ($$$) and debug a few things, such as reducing the squeal made by the forced steerable axles etc. The main problem is cold; the pressure sensitive doors (required because no operator is available to stick his head out and see if anyone is stuck) would have ice accumulate in the door-tracks, and the train wouldn't start until the doors closed, and the entire system was up in knots for days ($$$). The only other problem was when snow accumulated on the tracks and triggered the system that senses Foreign Body weight on the guideway, again, the system was in knots and yes, it cost $$$. Now the line runs (pretty much) flawlessly, is fast and efficient, and attracts growing ridership, but it cost a lot of $$$!!!
            

            ---

            • Subject: Re: Toronto H-6's
            • Message Number: 755882
            • Posted by: Bingo
            • Date: Fri Jun 20 17:05:53 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: Toronto H-6's posted by Nathan on June 20, 1997 at 16:47:47: In my book, the ugliest station of them all has got to be Union. And that's unfortunate, because it is the first station that most tourists see when they come to T.O. It has immense historical value, and is at the centre of the economic jungle that we call downtown Toronto. Right now there is some organization that is pressuring the government to protect the lands around Union for future travel and population expansion. I think this is a good idea. I think that the TTC is stupid in thinking that Union will be able to support both Skydome's and the upcoming Air Canada Centre's venues. I think the Maple Leafs are stupid for even considering the Union lands for their new arena. It's high time they shut their fat asses up and started to think about the fans for once. I'm certainly not going to one caught in a proverbial zoo at the badly planned Union. Vancouver, though small, is still a cool city. I stop by there now and then after I go snowboarding at Blackcomb. I've never ridden the subway there, though.
              

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Thread title: Subtalk and Pictures (755697)
Started on Sat Jun 14 19:51:20 1997, by Brian W

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• Subject: Subtalk and Pictures
• Message Number: 755697
• Posted by: Brian W
• Date: Sat Jun 14 19:51:20 1997
  
  I noticed earlier that David Pirmann included a picture of his own route ideas. How do you include a picture with your message?
  

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  • Subject: Re: Subtalk and Pictures
  • Message Number: 755699
  • Posted by: David Pirmann
  • Date: Sat Jun 14 21:39:22 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Subtalk and Pictures posted by Brian W on June 14, 1997 at 19:51:20: Trick of the trade! Seriously, any HTML markup in the "Comments" box of a Subtalk entry is preserved. So you could say would include the image at that URL. You have to have the image on a web server to begin with, though. You can do any sort of link you want -- etc. --Dave
    

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    • Subject: Re: Subtalk and Pictures
    • Message Number: 755701
    • Posted by: M.J.S.
    • Date: Sat Jun 14 22:43:27 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Subtalk and Pictures posted by Brian W on June 14, 1997 at 19:51:20: You insert the folowing tag: [INLINE] where the path is where you put the image. (This is a standard HTML tag) BTW, what happens if I were to put FRAMESET tags, or JavaScript into the messages?
      

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      • Subject: Re: Subtalk and Pictures
      • Message Number: 755702
      • Posted by: M.J.S.
      • Date: Sat Jun 14 22:45:04 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Subtalk and Pictures posted by Brian W on June 14, 1997 at 19:51:20: There was an error so I had to repost: You insert the folowing tag: [INLINE] where the path is where you put the image. (This is a standard HTML tag). The problem was I forgot to use escape sequences and browsers took the tag literally. BTW, what happens if I were to put FRAMESET tags, or JavaScript into the messages?
        

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        • Subject: Re: Subtalk and Pictures
        • Message Number: 755703
        • Posted by: M.J.S.
        • Date: Sat Jun 14 22:45:20 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Subtalk and Pictures posted by Brian W on June 14, 1997 at 19:51:20: There was an error so I had to repost: You insert the folowing tag: [INLINE] where the path is where you put the image. (This is a standard HTML tag). The problem was I forgot to use escape sequences and browsers took the tag literally. BTW, what happens if I were to put FRAMESET tags, or JavaScript into the messages?
          

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          • Subject: Re: Subtalk and Pictures
          • Message Number: 755704
          • Posted by: M.J.S.
          • Date: Sat Jun 14 22:47:23 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Subtalk and Pictures posted by Brian W on June 14, 1997 at 19:51:20: There was an error so I had to repost: You insert the folowing tag: < img src= " path " > where the path is where you put the image. (This is a standard HTML tag). The problem was I forgot to use escape sequences and browsers took the tag literally. BTW, what happens if I were to put FRAMESET tags, or JavaScript into the messages?
            

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            • Subject: Re: Subtalk and Pictures
            • Message Number: 755785
            • Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
            • Date: Thu Jun 19 04:39:47 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: Subtalk and Pictures posted by M.J.S. on June 14, 1997 at 22:47:23: (One last try at inserting a page tag...) By carfloat to NY Regional Rail (the "Cross Harbor") at Bush Terminal's 51st Street carfloat. Worth trying to see! Those who don't know should check out Bill Russel's Carfloat WWW Page [7] Bill's Carfloat Page
              

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              • Subject: Re: Subtalk and Pictures
              • Message Number: 755809
              • Posted by: Bingo
              • Date: Thu Jun 19 14:02:45 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]Re: Subtalk and Pictures posted by David Pirmann on June 14, 1997 at 21:39:22: What about animations, or small Hypercard or Macromedia stick-ons?
                

                ---

                • Subject: Re: Subtalk and Pictures
                • Message Number: 755816
                • Posted by: David Pirmann
                • Date: Thu Jun 19 14:49:00 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [6]Re: Subtalk and Pictures posted by Bingo on June 19, 1997 at 14:02:45: What about them? You can use html in your post to link to anything on the web no matter what it is. In terms of the formats you describe, it's up to the user's browser or add-on software to be able to see it. Fortunately I am macromedia shockwave-free and don't have to deal with all those whells and bistles. -dave
                  

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Thread title: Hey Dave:Please ask Mr. Greller for permissiom (755705)
Started on Sun Jun 15 00:25:13 1997, by Nick

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• Subject: Hey Dave:Please ask Mr. Greller for permissiom
• Message Number: 755705
• Posted by: Nick
• Date: Sun Jun 15 00:25:13 1997
  
  Dave:Your right! The Copyright law is veryimportant;my apologies for forgetting that. Since you've spoken to him, how about asking him for permission to scan those pics up. Or send me his e-mail addy and I'll be more than happy to ask him myself. SORRY AGAIN FOR FORGETTING THE IMPORTANT STUFF!!-Nick
  

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  • Subject: Re: Hey Dave:Please ask Mr. Greller for permissiom
  • Message Number: 755706
  • Posted by: M.J.S.
  • Date: Sun Jun 15 00:47:53 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Hey Dave:Please ask Mr. Greller for permissiom posted by Nick on June 15, 1997 at 00:25:13: In most situations copyright requests cost money.
    

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    • Subject: Re: Hey Dave:Please ask Mr. Greller for permissiom
    • Message Number: 755707
    • Posted by: David Pirmann
    • Date: Sun Jun 15 01:08:09 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Hey Dave:Please ask Mr. Greller for permissiom posted by Nick on June 15, 1997 at 00:25:13: I don't actually KNOW him-- I met him at a book signing. --Dave
      

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Thread title: For the record. (755715)
Started on Sun Jun 15 23:58:05 1997, by Steve

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• Subject: For the record.
• Message Number: 755715
• Posted by: Steve
• Date: Sun Jun 15 23:58:05 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Welded Rail - Facts posted by M.J.S. on June 12, 1997 at 16:00:16: I don't intend to continue to trade barbs with you over this subject. I disagree with you and you will not change my mind. Let me conclude it by giving you 2 bits of information to end this innocuous discussion. 1). Your statement about riding the trains is totally incorrecct. Unless there is a motorman (train operator) or conductor contributing to this site, I likely log more subway miles than you & any ten other contributers. 2) Yes, I do smell the urine and see the feces , and the garbage, aand the gum and sometimes, even the graffiti. They are, sadly enough, part of the system although not by choice. They are symbols of the lack of moral character of a very small percentage of the riders. However, despite the urine, feces, gum, garbage and graffiti the NYCT subways run 30,000,000 (thats 30 million) miles per month with an astounding safety record. The system operated 24 hours per day, 365 days per year without a break. The cars are operating with an MDBF of over 70,000 miles. Say what you will, no system in the world comes close to those numbers.
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: For the record.
  • Message Number: 755771
  • Posted by: Nathan
  • Date: Wed Jun 18 16:12:28 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]For the record. posted by Steve on June 15, 1997 at 23:58:05: I totally agree; the NYCMTA does a good job maintaining the system, considering how large it is.
    

---

Thread title: Javits Center Service Idea (755718)
Started on Mon Jun 16 13:32:57 1997, by Mark S Feinman

---

• Subject: Javits Center Service Idea
• Message Number: 755718
• Posted by: Mark S Feinman
• Date: Mon Jun 16 13:32:57 1997
  
  Hi all. What about the possibility of running a shuttle consisting of LIRR equipment from Penn Station to a new island platform that would be built on the northern-most portion of the LIRR Caemerrer (sp) yard in Manhattan? The shuttle would run only during Javits Center events (a la the now-defunct Aqueduct special). A free transfer using MetroCard could be utilized instead of building a separate transfer to the shuttle. It's not a one-seat ride to the Javits Center but it would be inexpensive if compared to other alternatives like extending the 7 or the L. The Caemerrer yard borders 34th St and so does the Javits Center, making it a short walk from the proposed station. Thoughts? --Mark
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: Javits Center Service Idea
  • Message Number: 755719
  • Posted by: Peter Rosa
  • Date: Mon Jun 16 15:49:32 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Javits Center Service Idea posted by Mark S Feinman on June 16, 1997 at 13:32:57: [re LIRR shuttle from NYP to Javits Center] It sounds to me like a terrific idea. There's a pressing need for a major expansion of the Javits Center, as it's already very much a second-rate convention center in terms of size. Trouble is, increasing the center's capacity will be only a second-rate solution unless something can be done about transit access. In addition to being far easier and cheaper to build, an LIRR shuttle might prove more popular with some convention-goers. Sad to say, there are still many people from other parts of the country who are scared to death of the subway (I know, what a bunch of cowards ...), but who presumably would be willing to ride LIRR trains.
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: Javits Center Service Idea
    • Message Number: 755730
    • Posted by: Charles
    • Date: Mon Jun 16 20:48:00 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Javits Center Service Idea posted by Mark S Feinman on June 16, 1997 at 13:32:57: Just a techinical question. I never heard of Caemerrer yard. Are you refering to West Side Storage facility?
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: Javits Center Service Idea
      • Message Number: 755731
      • Posted by: Andrew Huie
      • Date: Mon Jun 16 20:58:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Javits Center Service Idea posted by Peter Rosa on June 16, 1997 at 15:49:32: Actually, why not combine two ideas? If the service to JFK is created on the LIRR ROW, why not have an LIRR route going direct from JFK to Javits, with a stopover at Penn Station? That would allow convention-goers to go directly to the center, without having to switch trains or deal with traffic. Also people from Newark airport could take NJT to Penn, and transfer to this new route to go either to Javits or JFK.
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: Javits Center Service Idea
        • Message Number: 755744
        • Posted by: Charles Fiori
        • Date: Tue Jun 17 08:10:36 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: Javits Center Service Idea posted by Charles on June 16, 1997 at 20:48:00: Just a historical note. John Caemerrer was a NY politician, from L.I., I believe, who died some years back from cancer. Tragically, his daughter Lisa, was a passenger in a van full of friends who tried to go around a lowered crossing gate and beat a train on L.I. She was the only person in the van to survive.
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: Javits Center Service Idea
          • Message Number: 755773
          • Posted by: Gary Jacobi
          • Date: Wed Jun 18 16:35:34 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: Javits Center Service Idea posted by Andrew Huie on June 16, 1997 at 20:58:24: You guys have great ideas. This stems from being logical and intelligent. Unfortunately, the entities that would have to get together and agree on any arrangement like this show no signs of either attribute.
            

            ---

            • Subject: Re: Javits Center Service Idea
            • Message Number: 755790
            • Posted by: Julio Perez
            • Date: Thu Jun 19 08:36:48 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: Javits Center Service Idea posted by Peter Rosa on June 16, 1997 at 15:49:32: Why not just extend the 7 to the Javits Center as someone else suggested in the thread? I understand there are some old IND/BMT tracks that are not being used that currently hampers that expansion. But, because they are not being used now, can't they be used for this purpose now, or are they positioned such that an R-33/R-36 can't curve into the existing tracks? Or again, since the IND/BMT tracks are not being used, the ROW could be cleared away and the tracks rerouted to create the Javits Center station and extend its terminus somewhere along the Broadway/7th Avenue tracks...?
              

              ---

              • Subject: Re: Javits Center Service Idea
              • Message Number: 755803
              • Posted by: Peter Rosa
              • Date: Thu Jun 19 13:43:40 1997
                
                In Reply to: [6]Re: Javits Center Service Idea posted by Julio Perez on June 19, 1997 at 08:36:48: Extending the 7 to serve the Javits Center certainly may be possible, but would require at least some tunnelling. In contrast, adding a platform at the LIRR West Side yards co
                

                ---

                • Subject: Re: Javits Center Service Idea
                • Message Number: 755862
                • Posted by: Mark S Feinman
                • Date: Fri Jun 20 13:19:23 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [6]Re: Javits Center Service Idea posted by Charles on June 16, 1997 at 20:48:00: Yes, I do refer tot he West Side sotrage facility - I think there's a big sign at the entrance that calls it Caemerrer Yard. --Mark
                  

                  ---

                  • Subject: Re: Javits Center Service Idea
                  • Message Number: 755863
                  • Posted by: Mark S Feinman
                  • Date: Fri Jun 20 13:21:38 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [6]Re: Javits Center Service Idea posted by Julio Perez on June 19, 1997 at 08:36:48: While extending the #7 (or the L) to Javits Center is certainly feasible and a good idea, it'll cost money - lots of it. Building a platform in the Caemerrer Yard would require no tunnelling and would be a much cheaper solution that extending the #7. And cheaper solutiions (those that save the City and NYC Transit money) are more likely to get accomplished. --Mark
                    

                    ---

                    • Subject: Re: Javits Center Service Idea
                    • Message Number: 755914
                    • Posted by: Joshua Caesar
                    • Date: Sat Jun 21 02:02:35 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [6]Re: Javits Center Service Idea posted by Andrew Huie on June 16, 1997 at 20:58:24: Andrew Huie wrote "If the service to JFK is created on the LIRR ROW, why not have an LIRR route going direct from JFK to Javits, with a stopover at Penn Station?" A service like that is a great idea, but would primarily serve out-of-towners, try convincing the MTA and the city to spend money on that. LIRR service, shuttle or through, is a great idea for the Javits Center, one that would be even better when complemented by the extension of the 7 train to bring the subway to the convention center. The one seat ride for city residents should be the ultimate goal of a project like this. JC
                      

                      ---

                      • Subject: Re: Javits Center Service Idea
                      • Message Number: 756110
                      • Posted by: John of Calgary
                      • Date: Thu Jun 26 01:16:26 1997
                        
                        In Reply to: [5]Re: Javits Center Service Idea posted by Mark S Feinman on June 20, 1997 at 13:21:38: So you mean extending the L to Javits Center is better than extending the 7, right?
                        

---

Thread title: B-Train (755726)
Started on Mon Jun 16 18:54:42 1997, by Pete Brush

---

• Subject: B-Train
• Message Number: 755726
• Posted by: Pete Brush
• Date: Mon Jun 16 18:54:42 1997
  
  Surely there are enough letters in the alphabet so that the B could be called something else when it's going to Queens? Stuck on Roosevelt Isle
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: B-Train
  • Message Number: 755735
  • Posted by: John
  • Date: Mon Jun 16 21:26:33 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]B-Train posted by Pete Brush on June 16, 1997 at 18:54:42: What's wrong with B?
    

---

Thread title: Yankees vs. Mets subway series (755727)
Started on Mon Jun 16 19:35:25 1997, by Lefty

---

• Subject: Yankees vs. Mets subway series
• Message Number: 755727
• Posted by: Lefty
• Date: Mon Jun 16 19:35:25 1997
  
  wouldnt it have been cool if the mta took like 2 cars, painted one in mets colors and one in yankees, and had the mets symbollically take that 2 car train from shea stadium to yankee stadium, and get media coverage etc.. and maybe keep those 2 cars for future series going to yankee stadium or to shea stadium.. it would be cool..
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: Yankees vs. Mets subway series
  • Message Number: 755728
  • Posted by: Zack
  • Date: Mon Jun 16 20:38:15 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Yankees vs. Mets subway series posted by Lefty on June 16, 1997 at 19:35:25: that would be cool. maybe refurbished redbirds all fixed up fancy becouse they probally dont want to ride in stock subway cars
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: Yankees vs. Mets subway series
    • Message Number: 755729
    • Posted by: Charles
    • Date: Mon Jun 16 20:40:25 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Yankees vs. Mets subway series posted by Lefty on June 16, 1997 at 19:35:25: It is funny you mentioned that. I hear that the TA was planning to make an ad train of Flushing R33's in a METS paint scheme.I do not know if this plan is going to take place. But I do know that the cars that they are going to do it with are still sitting in Coney Island Yard.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: Yankees vs. Mets subway series
      • Message Number: 755732
      • Posted by: Andrew Huie
      • Date: Mon Jun 16 21:05:12 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Yankees vs. Mets subway series posted by Lefty on June 16, 1997 at 19:35:25: Hmm, wouldn't it take a long time to get a single train from Shea to Yankee Stadium? How about 2 2-car trains, the first done in Mets colors and running on the 7 to GCT, the other in Yankees colors running the rest of the way to Yankee Stadium?
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: Yankees vs. Mets subway series
        • Message Number: 755745
        • Posted by: Dan
        • Date: Tue Jun 17 09:19:26 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Yankees vs. Mets subway series posted by Lefty on June 16, 1997 at 19:35:25: Some private buses have advertisements covering the entire bus. A similar process could be used to create 'Mets' and 'Yankees' subway cars, with the ad sponsor picking up the cost as on the buses.
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: Yankees vs. Mets subway series
          • Message Number: 755767
          • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
          • Date: Tue Jun 17 21:26:00 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Yankees vs. Mets subway series posted by Lefty on June 16, 1997 at 19:35:25: At least the Yankees and Mets is a series between two fairly good teams and might attract a few subway riders! Now the Northeast Corridor Worst Series - The pathetic Red Schlocks versus the Phillies! That one is a true sleeper! (10 innings and decided by a hit batsman [yawn].........
            

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Thread title: Some Posts about Graffiti Removed (754021)
Started on Mon Jun 16 21:32:20 1997, by David Pirmann - Web Site Host

---

• Subject: Some Posts about Graffiti Removed
• Message Number: 754021
• Posted by: David Pirmann - Web Site Host
• Date: Mon Jun 16 21:32:20 1997
  
  Hello, I've removed some posts about graffiti. From what I can tell, they were from "writers" about graffiti techniques -- or how to get into the subway via emergency exits. No matter what you might think this is illegal and I can't have these discussions here. There are a lot of other sites out there for you writers. Art Crimes is one such site. If you want to talk technique or whatever try one of them. --Dave Web Site Host
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: Some Posts about Graffiti Removed
  • Message Number: 754067
  • Posted by: Sean Sullivan
  • Date: Tue Mar 25 17:39:32 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Some Posts about Graffiti Removed posted by David Pirmann - Web Site Host on March 19, 1997 at 20:38:00: you do not neceseralyhave to be a "writer" to hold a genuine interest in the art form I have submited a Sub talk that holds no illegal specifications what soever I hope that when I come back it will still be posted. Thanks yours sincerely Sean Sullivan HAM 137@aol.com
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: Some Posts about Graffiti Removed
    • Message Number: 754068
    • Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    • Date: Tue Mar 25 18:45:50 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Some Posts about Graffiti Removed posted by Sean Sullivan on March 25, 1997 at 17:39:32: I see what you are saying here; perhaps we would all feel better about our world if we didn't grit our teeth at the sight of grafitti, and tried to see value in it. I will give this philosophical approach a try. And the point that one doesn't have to be a 'WRITER' to be interested in the subject is very well taken.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: Some Posts about Graffiti Removed
      • Message Number: 754073
      • Posted by: David Pirmann - Web Site Host
      • Date: Mon Jun 16 21:33:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Posts about Graffiti Removed posted by Gary Jacobi on March 25, 1997 at 18:45:50: I think that since this is such a religious issue it is better discussed elsewhere. Yes, there are some graffiti pictures elsewhere on the site, and while they among the more popular areas here I have been rethinking their place here. I don't want this site to be seen as condoning graffiti and I certainly don't want to be accused of providing a means for "writers" to gather tips and techniques. As I said before, there are a large number of graffiti sites on the web that are better suited for handling this sort of thing. Except in the case of historical photographs, the graffiti photos on this web site were taken in areas the NYCT considers abandoned or unused - the 91st Street Station and the 63rd Street tunnel. Graffiti in these areas doesn't cause a public nuisance. Most of it's never even seen. I don't want to return to the days of seeing the trains covered with it and I don't think we need to provide a forum for discussing it. After all, if it turns out you're a writer, you may end up having your message read by law enforcement people instead. This actually happened in Boston and resulted in arrests. See [7]The Boston Globe for an article about it. --Dave
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: Some Posts about Graffiti Removed
        • Message Number: 754077
        • Posted by: Ben-Zion Cassouto
        • Date: Wed Mar 26 04:21:13 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Posts about Graffiti Removed posted by David Pirmann - Web Site Host on March 25, 1997 at 20:18:49: Not to drag out this thread, but: Graffiti is vandalism. It steals my tax money which I work hard for. It is morally wrong (and of course illegal) to steal. Period. Art which I like, or even that which I don't like, can be given free expression in many private and public forums in a way that doesn't steal taxpayer money. Of course, then the kick of "stolen water tastes sweeter" would be lost. Enough said.
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: Some Posts about Graffiti Removed
          • Message Number: 754229
          • Posted by: meem
          • Date: Mon Apr 7 16:49:58 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Posts about Graffiti Removed posted by David Pirmann - Web Site Host on March 25, 1997 at 20:18:49: i certainly understand the concern about having graffiti-related content on this website. i also understand that many people would like to put the years of graffiti-covered trains behind them. however, independent of right or wrong, graffiti was an integral part of the NYC subway system for many years, and thus *should* be documented on this website. like it or not, for many, the NYC subway system is *still* synonymous with graffiti.
            

            ---

            • Subject: Re: Some Posts about Graffiti Removed
            • Message Number: 754237
            • Posted by: Ben-Zion Cassouto
            • Date: Tue Apr 8 03:30:52 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: Some Posts about Graffiti Removed posted by meem on April 07, 1997 at 16:49:58: "meem" wrote that we should document grafitti because it was prevalent a few years on the subway... Document grafitti? Should we document vandalized light fixtures/bathrooms/etc on the subway too? Maybe we should document muggings and worse crimes also, with detailed WWW pages, pictures, etc. Maybe a Transit Crimes Museum!?
              

---

Thread title: Re: First Post (754022)
Started on Mon Jun 16 21:32:21 1997, by David Pirmann - Web Site Host

---

• Subject: Re: First Post
• Message Number: 754022
• Posted by: David Pirmann - Web Site Host
• Date: Mon Jun 16 21:32:21 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: First Post posted by Gary Jacobi on March 12, 1997 at 16:28:19: Gary, I would have replied to you directly. I too had been pondering what to do about the "writers". I didn't see that it had become a major problem yet but better to stop it now, I agree. If you'd like to write me privately and discuss what it is you want to do, that would be fine. --Dave pirmann@quuxuum.org
  

  ---

  • Subject: First Post
  • Message Number: 754199
  • Posted by: David Pirmann
  • Date: Wed Feb 26 22:33:42 1997
    
    Well, I guess I should get the ball rolling...
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: First Post
    • Message Number: 754689
    • Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    • Date: Wed Mar 12 16:28:19 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]First Post posted by David Pirmann on February 26, 1997 at 22:33:42: I'm a bit worried about the Grafitti Freaks using your site, but it's yours to handle as you wish. But if this isn't spam, what I want to do might not fit your definition of major flamage either.
      

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Thread title: Downtime (754154)
Started on Mon Jun 16 21:34:45 1997, by David Pirmann - Web Site Host

---

• Subject: Downtime
• Message Number: 754154
• Posted by: David Pirmann - Web Site Host
• Date: Mon Jun 16 21:34:45 1997
  
  Sorry about the downtime, folks. The ISP was doing some wiring work at their site which took much longer than expected. Compounded on top of that, the ethernet connection to the web server has developed some flakiness which I'll fix tonight. So bear with us while we straighten it all out.
  

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Thread title: By Popular Demand - SubTalk Archives (754535)
Started on Mon Jun 16 21:41:02 1997, by David Pirmann - Web Site Host

---

• Subject: By Popular Demand - SubTalk Archives
• Message Number: 754535
• Posted by: David Pirmann - Web Site Host
• Date: Mon Jun 16 21:41:02 1997
  
  Hello, Since tons of you have asked for it, I whipped up an archiving system for the Subtalk articles. They are available via the link on the main page "View Archives" and they are arranged by week in chronological order. There are still some problems with it, like threads aren't shown (they're shown in more-or-less date order), and if a followup was in a different week, it's not available from the parent article. Stuff to work on. but at least the main index page isn't 150K any more :) --Dave
  

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Thread title: Re: please answer this question in as much detail as possible including (754728)
Started on Mon Jun 16 21:43:57 1997, by .

---

• Subject: Re: please answer this question in as much detail as possible including
• Message Number: 754728
• Posted by: .
• Date: Mon Jun 16 21:43:57 1997
  
  
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: please answer this question in as much detail as possible including
  • Message Number: 754762
  • Posted by: .
  • Date: Mon Jun 16 21:44:28 1997
    
    
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: please answer this question in as much detail as possible including
    • Message Number: 754763
    • Posted by: .
    • Date: Mon Jun 16 21:44:29 1997
      
      
      

      ---

      • Subject: please answer this question in as much detail as possible including
      • Message Number: 754704
      • Posted by: .
      • Date: Mon Jun 16 21:43:35 1997
        
        
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: please answer this question in as much detail as possible including
        • Message Number: 754706
        • Posted by: .
        • Date: Mon Jun 16 21:43:37 1997
          
          
          

---

Thread title: Grade Crossings (755738)
Started on Tue Jun 17 01:36:17 1997, by Jack Bleiberg

---

• Subject: Grade Crossings
• Message Number: 755738
• Posted by: Jack Bleiberg
• Date: Tue Jun 17 01:36:17 1997
  
  Are there any grade crossings on the new york subway system and are there any places where there are freight sidings for coustomers to receve goods.
  

  ---

  • Subject: Grade Crossings
  • Message Number: 755739
  • Posted by: Jack Bleiberg
  • Date: Tue Jun 17 01:37:01 1997
    
    Are there any grade crossings on the new york subway system and are there any places where there are freight sidings for costomers to receve goods.
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: Grade Crossings
    • Message Number: 755746
    • Posted by: Peter Rosa
    • Date: Tue Jun 17 09:21:08 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Grade Crossings posted by Jack Bleiberg on June 17, 1997 at 01:37:01: There are no longer any grade crossings of public roads on the NYC subway. The last one was on the L train, close to the Canarsie terminal, but was eliminated about 25 years ago (someone else may have a more accurate date on that). I have heard that a yard track at the 238th Street yard in the Bronx (2 train) crosses a public road, though I haven't been up there to see for myself.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: Grade Crossings
      • Message Number: 755829
      • Posted by: Steve
      • Date: Thu Jun 19 17:31:28 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Grade Crossings posted by Jack Bleiberg on June 17, 1997 at 01:37:01: Actually, the last grade crossing was at the north end of the 105th St. Station on the 'L' line. There are many crossings within the many yards of the system but these crossings are unprotected and not for public use.
        

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Thread title: broad channel ind new relay track (755740)
Started on Tue Jun 17 03:43:27 1997, by steve lowenthal

---

• Subject: broad channel ind new relay track
• Message Number: 755740
• Posted by: steve lowenthal
• Date: Tue Jun 17 03:43:27 1997
  
  does anyone have details of the track layout---proposal
  

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Thread title: The DC metro grows again (755748)
Started on Tue Jun 17 10:19:35 1997, by Mark Greenwald

---

• Subject: The DC metro grows again
• Message Number: 755748
• Posted by: Mark Greenwald
• Date: Tue Jun 17 10:19:35 1997
  
  Just a quick note---he Blue Line on the DC Metro will be extended to its planned terminus in Virginia---Franconia/Springfield--on June 29th. There are celebrations and free rides on the Metro for anyone boarding at the new station to anywhere else in the system--see----www.wmata.com
  

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Thread title: METRA (755751)
Started on Tue Jun 17 11:46:54 1997, by Bingo

---

• Subject: METRA
• Message Number: 755751
• Posted by: Bingo
• Date: Tue Jun 17 11:46:54 1997
  
  Does anyone know where I can get information on Chicago's Metra system, or the elevated train?
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: METRA
  • Message Number: 755754
  • Posted by: Ed Sachs
  • Date: Tue Jun 17 14:37:37 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]METRA posted by Bingo on June 17, 1997 at 11:46:54:
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: METRA
    • Message Number: 755755
    • Posted by: Ed Sachs
    • Date: Tue Jun 17 14:39:51 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]METRA posted by Bingo on June 17, 1997 at 11:46:54: Try the following web pages: METRA: http://www.metrarail.com/ CTA: http://www.transitchicago.com/ CHICAGO TRANSIT-METRA RAILFAN: http://members.aol.com/chirailfan/railfan.html
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: METRA
      • Message Number: 755764
      • Posted by: Bingo
      • Date: Tue Jun 17 19:03:40 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: METRA posted by Ed Sachs on June 17, 1997 at 14:39:51: Thank you kindly!!!
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: METRA
        • Message Number: 755851
        • Posted by: Nathan
        • Date: Fri Jun 20 02:25:59 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]METRA posted by Bingo on June 17, 1997 at 11:46:54: Sorry, but if you want to see a good example of el train operations, an unusual one car consist, and a "riders viewpoint", watch the old tom cruise movie "Risky Business". I can not guarantee that you will NOT barf, it is rather, er, unusual...
          

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Thread title: FREE E-MAIL FOR WILLIAM (sorry for disrupting) (755753)
Started on Tue Jun 17 13:55:08 1997, by M.J.S.

---

• Subject: FREE E-MAIL FOR WILLIAM (sorry for disrupting)
• Message Number: 755753
• Posted by: M.J.S.
• Date: Tue Jun 17 13:55:08 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: R-10 posted by WILLIAM A. PADRON on June 16, 1997 at 16:50:41: William, I also found another free E-mail service similar to Hotmail, Rocketmail: [7]Follow Ups: * [8]Re: FREE E-MAIL FOR WILLIAM (sorry for disrupting) WILLIAM A. PADRON 17:07:52 6/17/97 (0) * [9]Re: FREE E-MAIL FOR WILLIAM (sorry for disrupting) WILLIAM A. PADRON 17:07:12 6/17/97 (0)
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: FREE E-MAIL FOR WILLIAM (sorry for disrupting)
  • Message Number: 755756
  • Posted by: WILLIAM A. PADRON
  • Date: Tue Jun 17 17:07:12 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]FREE E-MAIL FOR WILLIAM (sorry for disrupting) posted by M.J.S. on June 17, 1997 at 13:55:08: Thank you very much for everyone, including you, for suggesting that I get an e-mail address...FAST!!! Based upon certain recommmendations, I have selected with www.hotmail.com. For anyone who wishes to contact me on any questions or certain matter relating to the R-10's (a true speciality, of course), you may find me at wapadron@hotmail.com. Again, thanks a bunch!!! Sincerely, WILLIAM A. PADRON P.S. Okay, Dave and M.J.S., start talking...it's showtime!
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: FREE E-MAIL FOR WILLIAM (sorry for disrupting)
    • Message Number: 755757
    • Posted by: WILLIAM A. PADRON
    • Date: Tue Jun 17 17:07:52 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]FREE E-MAIL FOR WILLIAM (sorry for disrupting) posted by M.J.S. on June 17, 1997 at 13:55:08: Thank you very much for everyone, including you, for suggesting that I get an e-mail address...FAST!!! Based upon certain recommmendations, I have selected with www.hotmail.com. For anyone who wishes to contact me on any questions or certain matter relating to the R-10's (a true speciality, of course), you may find me at wapadron@hotmail.com. Again, thanks a bunch!!! Sincerely, WILLIAM A. PADRON P.S. Okay, Dave and M.J.S., start talking...it's showtime!
      

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Thread title: PLEASE DON'T PUT ANSWERS TO THE CHICAGO RAIL FAN QUIZ ON THE BOARD, PLEASE (754987)
Started on Tue Jun 17 19:34:33 1997, by .

---

• Subject: PLEASE DON'T PUT ANSWERS TO THE CHICAGO RAIL FAN QUIZ ON THE BOARD, PLEASE
• Message Number: 754987
• Posted by: .
• Date: Tue Jun 17 19:34:33 1997
  
  
  

---

Thread title: Re: PLEASE DON'T PUT ANSWERS TO THE CHICAGO RAIL FAN QUIZ ON THE BOARD, (754990)
Started on Tue Jun 17 19:34:36 1997, by .

---

• Subject: Re: PLEASE DON'T PUT ANSWERS TO THE CHICAGO RAIL FAN QUIZ ON THE BOARD,
• Message Number: 754990
• Posted by: .
• Date: Tue Jun 17 19:34:36 1997
  
  
  

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Thread title: London Underground - Tour of Disused Stations (755175)
Started on Tue Jun 17 19:37:26 1997, by David Pirmann - web site host

---

• Subject: London Underground - Tour of Disused Stations
• Message Number: 755175
• Posted by: David Pirmann - web site host
• Date: Tue Jun 17 19:37:26 1997
  
  hello, I was asked to post this... periodically London Transport runs tours of some of their disused stations. If you're going to London, or are in the UK anyway, and want to go, contact [6]onion@panther.netmania.co.uk And if you go, I'd appreciate some photos! :-) --Dave
  

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Thread title: Testing new domain name (755266)
Started on Tue Jun 17 19:38:44 1997, by David Pirmann - Web site host

---

• Subject: Testing new domain name
• Message Number: 755266
• Posted by: David Pirmann - Web site host
• Date: Tue Jun 17 19:38:44 1997
  
  This is a test post running under www.nycsubway.org --dave
  

---

Thread title: New Domain Name (755267)
Started on Tue Jun 17 19:38:45 1997, by David Pirmann - Web Site Host

---

• Subject: New Domain Name
• Message Number: 755267
• Posted by: David Pirmann - Web Site Host
• Date: Tue Jun 17 19:38:45 1997
  
  In a fit of vanity, I decided to register a domainname for this site. The new domain name is "www.nycsubway.org". The old name still works, so don't worry about that. But I thought the new name is "cool" :-) --dave
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: New Domain Name
  • Message Number: 755268
  • Posted by: BRYAN LAYNE
  • Date: Mon Jun 2 18:43:01 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]New Domain Name posted by David Pirmann - Web Site Host on June 02, 1997 at 17:54:27: Cool
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: New Domain Name
    • Message Number: 755286
    • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
    • Date: Tue Jun 3 08:57:59 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: New Domain Name posted by BRYAN LAYNE on June 02, 1997 at 18:43:01: The new domain name is fine. But it caused netscape to forget which subtalk posts I had alerady read... Brighton Line section is great. A couple of suggestions... Explain how the Brighton Line is interworked with the IRT along Flatbush Av. Note station configurations and structure changes along the way. eg. South of Botanic Gardens both tracks enter subway. southbound track crosses over two tracks from Dekalb Av. All four tracks exit subway into: Prospect Park, 2 Island Platforms serving 4 tracks in open cut, inside tracks serve subway to Dekalb Av., outside tracks serve Franklin Av. shuttle. Shuttle trains normally terminate on northbound side, southbound used for access to Coney Island Shops only. Four tracks continue south in open cut, interlocking plant allows access to express/local tracks. Parkside Av. outside platforms in open cut, local tracks only. and so forth... Gerry
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: New Domain Name
      • Message Number: 755292
      • Posted by: Mark Greenwald
      • Date: Tue Jun 3 10:13:32 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: New Domain Name posted by Gerry O'Regan on June 03, 1997 at 08:57:59: I like it too---hey, let's get Mikey Actually, I like it because I often travel and use others comps. so it makes it easy to remember in order to "log in". Thanks Dave
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: New Domain Name
        • Message Number: 755296
        • Posted by: Nathan
        • Date: Tue Jun 3 14:10:26 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]New Domain Name posted by David Pirmann - Web Site Host on June 02, 1997 at 17:54:27: Good domain name, it just cause my computer to lose the followed hypertext in subtalk, so I ended up rereading about 20 messages!
          

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Thread title: Looking for Volunteers (755350)
Started on Tue Jun 17 19:39:56 1997, by David Pirmann - Web Site Host

---

• Subject: Looking for Volunteers
• Message Number: 755350
• Posted by: David Pirmann - Web Site Host
• Date: Tue Jun 17 19:39:56 1997
  
  Greetings, As you all can probably imagine, we could use all the volunteers we can get. I have a list of projects that I've been sitting on. Maybe some of you would like to assist and contribute a section to the site. I already posted something about a description of the routes (see [6]re: New Brighton Line section). I already got a couple of people on board to work on those sections. Here are some other projects that some of you might be interested in: 1. Completion of the route descriptions and history 2. Cleaning up the [7]Usenet articles into an "operational guide" 3. Obtain articles from newspapers prior to 1920 regarding the subway and El, (e.g. new York Times October 27 1904). All of this stuff is in the public domain and could be posted to the site. Maybe someone with access to a good research library could do this. 4. Someone with contacts in the ERA/New York Division to obtain the source material and permission to repost it to the web, e.g. articles and maps from their newsletter from years ago. etc. etc. Suggestions are welcome for more ideas, especially if you'd like to volunteer to help work on it. --Dave
  

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Thread title: Sunnyside Yard Location/Connection (Was Re: Queensbridge-Queens Blvd. Line (755392)
Started on Tue Jun 17 19:40:32 1997, by .

---

• Subject: Sunnyside Yard Location/Connection (Was Re: Queensbridge-Queens Blvd. Line
• Message Number: 755392
• Posted by: .
• Date: Tue Jun 17 19:40:32 1997
  
  
  

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Thread title: Re: Sunnyside Yard Location/Connection (Was Re: Queensbridge-Queens Blvd. (755396)
Started on Tue Jun 17 19:40:35 1997, by .

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• Subject: Re: Sunnyside Yard Location/Connection (Was Re: Queensbridge-Queens Blvd.
• Message Number: 755396
• Posted by: .
• Date: Tue Jun 17 19:40:35 1997
  
  
  

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Thread title: R-44's and 46's (755766)
Started on Tue Jun 17 20:09:37 1997, by Bingo

---

• Subject: R-44's and 46's
• Message Number: 755766
• Posted by: Bingo
• Date: Tue Jun 17 20:09:37 1997
  
  Are there any people out there who actually like these cars? (I'm not being sarcastic) Why do tube riders hate them so? These cars were among the last built in the States, and are representational of their era.
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: R-44's and 46's
  • Message Number: 755768
  • Posted by: John
  • Date: Tue Jun 17 23:23:21 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]R-44's and 46's posted by Bingo on June 17, 1997 at 20:09:37: They're okay, but I like straight-side cars better (especially the older ones).
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: R-44's and 46's
    • Message Number: 755808
    • Posted by: Steve
    • Date: Thu Jun 19 14:01:00 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]R-44's and 46's posted by Bingo on June 17, 1997 at 20:09:37: As a matter of fact, I happen to be very partial to the R-46s. The R-46 cars are probably the best made of all the NYCT cars. 752 of the original 754 cars are still in service after a quater century of use. They are the quietest and smoothest riding, even after the removal of the air-bag suspension. They are also the nicest as far as car appearance goes. The interiors are the most appealing. I think that they'll likely be the only cars which undergo a second overhaul and will likely run 45-50 years as compared to the average of 30-35 years for other cars.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: R-44's and 46's
      • Message Number: 755818
      • Posted by: Julio Perez
      • Date: Thu Jun 19 14:57:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: R-44's and 46's posted by Steve on June 19, 1997 at 14:01:00: Don't forget some of the R-1s and derivatives were running in revenue service for about 40 years or so too...
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: R-44's and 46's
        • Message Number: 755823
        • Posted by: Steve
        • Date: Thu Jun 19 17:03:29 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: R-44's and 46's posted by Julio Perez on June 19, 1997 at 14:57:31: How can we forget? But that was when the cars were built like tanks.
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: R-44's and 46's
          • Message Number: 755835
          • Posted by: John
          • Date: Thu Jun 19 20:07:04 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: R-44's and 46's posted by Steve on June 19, 1997 at 17:03:29: Just about everything about the R-1s - R-9s were tank like. The only thing I didn't like was when the wicker seats had tears in them, because they pinched the skin.
            

            ---

            • Subject: Re: R-44's and 46's
            • Message Number: 755839
            • Posted by: Steve
            • Date: Thu Jun 19 20:44:45 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: R-44's and 46's posted by John on June 19, 1997 at 20:07:04: They were terrible for sleeping on also. When you'd get up your face had the impression of the wicker.
              

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Thread title: MTANYS not NYCMTA (755776)
Started on Wed Jun 18 18:16:45 1997, by Submit Follow Up

---

• Subject: MTANYS not NYCMTA
• Message Number: 755776
• Posted by: Submit Follow Up
• Date: Wed Jun 18 18:16:45 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: For the record. posted by Nathan on June 18, 1997 at 16:12:28: * [6]GO HERE!!!!!!!!!!!
  

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Thread title: What happened to J/Z skip stop and express between Marcy and Myrtle? (755777)
Started on Wed Jun 18 21:43:18 1997, by David Lee

---

• Subject: What happened to J/Z skip stop and express between Marcy and Myrtle?
• Message Number: 755777
• Posted by: David Lee
• Date: Wed Jun 18 21:43:18 1997
  
  I was riding the J train to Jamaica just for the heck of it and while riding I noticed that the J was not running express from MArcy Ave to Myrtle Ave. Then after Myrtle Ave, the J made all stops from Myrtle to Jamaica Center. I was riding on the J at 7:00. What happened to the express and skip/stop service?
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: What happened to J/Z skip stop and express between Marcy and Myrtle?
  • Message Number: 755786
  • Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
  • Date: Thu Jun 19 04:43:13 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]What happened to J/Z skip stop and express between Marcy and Myrtle? posted by David Lee on June 18, 1997 at 21:43:18: If it was 7AM -- wrong direction...
    

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    • Subject: Re: What happened to J/Z skip stop and express between Marcy and Myrtle?
    • Message Number: 755788
    • Posted by: John
    • Date: Thu Jun 19 07:02:05 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: What happened to J/Z skip stop and express between Marcy and Myrtle? posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on June 19, 1997 at 04:43:13: But if it was 7 PM, it was too late. The Z train stops running at 5:30, and therefore, all-local service resumes at that time.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: What happened to J/Z skip stop and express between Marcy and Myrtle?
      • Message Number: 755827
      • Posted by: Garfield
      • Date: Thu Jun 19 17:22:29 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]What happened to J/Z skip stop and express between Marcy and Myrtle? posted by David Lee on June 18, 1997 at 21:43:18: I noticed that as well too. I recently posted up a question concerning J/Z skip-stop express service. As of now, I don't want the hell is going on. What, is the T.A eliminating express service from Myrtle to Marcy Ave. The whole thing is just ludicrous. First they eliminate express service between Marcy Ave and Eastern Parkway, now they want to do the same with Marcy and Mrytle. It's obvious that when trains during the PM rush enter Eastern Pkwy, they packed out of proportion due to A train riders.
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: What happened to J/Z skip stop and express between Marcy and Myrtle?
        • Message Number: 755858
        • Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        • Date: Fri Jun 20 12:44:15 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: What happened to J/Z skip stop and express between Marcy and Myrtle? posted by Garfield on June 19, 1997 at 17:22:29: I suspect the MTA, or whatever it is called nowadays, is looking to abandon the J/Z line. Consider, if you will: They cut off the Jamaica end. They have made no improvements of note on Fulton Street in one hundred years.They dropped the express in two easy stages. What is left but tearing it down?
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: What happened to J/Z skip stop and express between Marcy and Myrtle?
          • Message Number: 755867
          • Posted by: John
          • Date: Fri Jun 20 15:22:53 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: What happened to J/Z skip stop and express between Marcy and Myrtle? posted by Gary Jacobi on June 20, 1997 at 12:44:15: Why would the Transit Authority do something like that? If it turns out that they will tear it down, will they make it a bus line?
            

            ---

            • Subject: Re: What happened to J/Z skip stop and express between Marcy and Myrtle?
            • Message Number: 755909
            • Posted by: Zack
            • Date: Fri Jun 20 23:22:56 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: What happened to J/Z skip stop and express between Marcy and Myrtle? posted by John on June 20, 1997 at 15:22:53: if it is torn doen then its probally unecomincal to operate either due to age or detoriationg physical age. if thy do they will probally make it a bus line. (if this keeps up newyork wont have any subway left then 100 years later they will wonder what happend to the subway and re build it.)
              

              ---

              • Subject: Re: What happened to J/Z skip stop and express between Marcy and Myrtle?
              • Message Number: 756043
              • Posted by: John of Calgary
              • Date: Tue Jun 24 20:32:15 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]Re: What happened to J/Z skip stop and express between Marcy and Myrtle? posted by Garfield on June 19, 1997 at 17:22:29: Well, when I was in New York last summer, I took the J or Z to Manhattan. (Mainly to Chinatown.) And on every Z train I took, it stopped at the stops it's supposed to skip! What on the face of the Planet Earth is happening?
                

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                • Subject: Re: What happened to J/Z skip stop and express between Marcy and Myrtle?
                • Message Number: 756052
                • Posted by: John
                • Date: Wed Jun 25 00:17:24 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [5]Re: What happened to J/Z skip stop and express between Marcy and Myrtle? posted by John of Calgary on June 24, 1997 at 20:32:15: You are not the only "victim" here. Apparently, it seems as if the Transit Authority is not living up to its word. You should call the MTA at (718) 330-1234 to find out what's going on.
                  

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Thread title: Green Line in Boston (755778)
Started on Wed Jun 18 22:29:05 1997, by ~airplane

---

• Subject: Green Line in Boston
• Message Number: 755778
• Posted by: ~airplane
• Date: Wed Jun 18 22:29:05 1997
  
  Question for Bostonians: 1-On my last trip to Boston, I noticed that the D branch of the Green Line (to Riverside) is much longer than the other branches and has fewer stops. I assumed that it was converted from an existing rail line of some sort to a T line. What is the history of this branch?
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: Green Line in Boston
  • Message Number: 755791
  • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
  • Date: Thu Jun 19 09:00:37 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Green Line in Boston posted by ~airplane on June 18, 1997 at 22:29:05: The Riverside Line was converted from a former commuter rail route in the late 1950s. The original line connected to the B&A main line near Kenmore Sq and at Riverside forming a loop which was used in operations. The inner part of the Lower Falls branch, formed the connection at Riverside, but is now abandoned, the track connection to the T is not used much but was revived during last October's flood to provide temporary service from Riverside to South Station. The connection near Kenmore was broken to construct the necessary subway portal. The line opened on July 4, 1959. At first service consisted of alternating trips to Riverside and short turns to Reservoir. After a few months, heavy riding on the outer end dictated that all trips run to Riverside. An interesting aspect of this line has been rough track which persists today after several rebuildings. The riding quality was so poor that resilient wheels were removed to cut maintenance expense and field shunting disabled to slow down the cars.
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: Green Line in Boston
    • Message Number: 755831
    • Posted by: FRED WELLMAN
    • Date: Thu Jun 19 19:33:28 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Green Line in Boston posted by Gerry O'Regan on June 19, 1997 at 09:00:37: I lived in Boston from 1980 to 1986 and have used the D line alot. How did they turn the PCC's at Resevior? I remember a few years ago when they built the yard and connections to Cleveland Circle. Was that the second rebuild? BTW if you are going to Boston and don't need your car Riverside station is a cheap safe place to park. It is about 5 minutes from the MA pike and 128.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: Green Line in Boston
      • Message Number: 755853
      • Posted by: Dave
      • Date: Fri Jun 20 09:33:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Green Line in Boston posted by FRED WELLMAN on June 19, 1997 at 19:33:28: The cars at Resevoir were turned on a loop around the yard
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: Green Line in Boston
        • Message Number: 755930
        • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
        • Date: Sat Jun 21 15:46:17 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: Green Line in Boston posted by Dave on June 20, 1997 at 09:33:06: Reservoir today looks nothing like it did back then. Coming west from Beaconsfield there was a crossover followed by a right hand turnout which provided access to the lower yard and carhouse. The line then expanded to six tracks, with the northmost track being the westbound main, which continued to Reservoir Station in approximately a straight line. A left hand turnout, just beyond the lead to the lower yard, provided access to the two other westbound tracks, which continued for a few hundred feet, and then rejoined the westbound main. After this was another right hand turnout leading to a ramp up to the level of Chestnut Hill Av., where the track looped over the main line tracks. The station for short turn cars was located here. The loop led into a descending ramp leading directly into the eastbound main. The easbound main from Riverside curved to the right after leaving Reservoir Station and joined the track from the loop in a left hand trailing switch. A left hand facing switch from the main track led into the other two eastbound tracks. which rejoined the eastbound main as it negotiated an 'S' curve to the left just before Beaconsfield Station. This whole mess was known as Reservoir Upper Yard, and a few trains would be stationed there to enter service in either direction when needed either for rush hour or at the beginning or end of the day. A pair of tracks connected the loop at the top of the ramp to the Beacon St. and Chestnut Hill Av. tracks. This was arranged so that outbound Riverside cars could connect to Beacon St. inbound or either direction on Commonwealth Av. Likewise any car from Commonwealth Av or outbound Beacon St. cars could connect to Riverside inbound. This left moves from Riverside to Reservoir or vice-versa being routed into Kenmore and back out Beacon St. Even without a map one can see that the layout was not conducive to convenient movement of equipment between Riverside and the carhouse. To cap things off, moves entering Reservoir Lower yard via the switch at the east end of the yard had to make a back-up move to reach the carhouse or most storage tracks. Cars using the lead off the loop could also reach the carhouse by backing up, but that required pulling up to a 150 foot train into Chestnut Hill Av. and then backing into the yard while motorists fumed. In either case trolley poles had to be backed through special work during this process, making the moves as slow as could be imagined. Today with double-ended cars, pantographs and a new carhouse, operations at Reservoir are far less painful.
          

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Thread title: What Happen to the "subway"in this site (755779)
Started on Thu Jun 19 01:38:15 1997, by Zack

---

• Subject: What Happen to the "subway"in this site
• Message Number: 755779
• Posted by: Zack
• Date: Thu Jun 19 01:38:15 1997
  
  i am just curious how come there are more eleveted shots then actual underground shots. i know the eleveted and the subway are one and the same but there dont seem to be thet many undergrond shots, unlss clouds have invaded the subway :) thanks zack
  

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  • Subject: Re: What Happen to the "subway"in this site
  • Message Number: 755782
  • Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
  • Date: Thu Jun 19 04:18:19 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]What Happen to the "subway"in this site posted by Zack on June 19, 1997 at 01:38:15: Unfortunately good bright subway shots are difficult to find... "Gotham Turnstiles" has a couple. BTW, that book have incredibly good color photography from the early 60s -- a rarity!
    

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    • Subject: Re: What Happen to the "subway"in this site
    • Message Number: 755792
    • Posted by: David Pirmann
    • Date: Thu Jun 19 09:05:28 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]What Happen to the "subway"in this site posted by Zack on June 19, 1997 at 01:38:15: It's not easy to take good pictures in the subway. First, flash bulbs and tripod use is against regulations. So you need fast film and a real steady hand (and a good lens). Also, slide film tends to be a lot slower than common print film, so the people who shoot slides are at a disadvantage. Secondly, the stations are not the best for photography, with the columns and stairways in the way of your shoot. Third, the "subway" stations tend to be more crowded and have people in the way of your picture and/or you're in the way of their movements. The former makes for bad pictures and the latter can get you thrown out (also see #1 about tripods). Fourth, there's more steel dust and dirt in the subway stations, both bad for lungs and cameras. \ Fifth, subway station lighting sucks. The sun does a much better job of lighting a scene. Also, there's the fact that the elevated stations are much more picturesque, IMHO. Wouldn't you rather see a train climbing up to Smith/9th St or Broadway Junction, or on the 125th St. viaduct (#1 train), or the redbirds out at Corona Yard? It beats a cut-off view of the front of a train at West 4th Street any day. Almost every picture I've seen of a train in a subway station is a front view looking down the length of the train. Besides, I think the more interesting subway stations are pretty well represented-- the Disused and Abandoned stations, for instance, 168th St on the #1, Grand Central on the #7, City Hall... Does anyone know, in terms of route miles, what percent of the "subway" is actually elevated or otherwise outdoors? I suspect more is elevated than in subway which would also contribute to the fact that there are more pictures of trains on the Els. --Dave
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: What Happen to the "subway"in this site
      • Message Number: 755817
      • Posted by: Gary Jacobi
      • Date: Thu Jun 19 14:50:47 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: What Happen to the "subway"in this site posted by David Pirmann on June 19, 1997 at 09:05:28: I'm surprised that the percentage of above ground lines is not a well known figure. I did a " Quick and dirty " count from Adler's map, and think one third above ground is close. The original IND was "all underground" with the exception of yards and the Gowanus Canal crossing. The other elevated sections, Liberty Ave and McDonald St. are taken over BMT lines. BMT had the most above ground, having started as a purely elevated system. I have always considered the Coney Island ex Steam lines to be above ground, includind Brighton Beach.The greater percentage of IRT in the Bronx and Queens is above ground, and about 25% of the Brooklyn lines. However, subway sections are more often four tracked, whereas els tend to be two or three tracked. This further diminishes the track miles of the above ground portion, which I considered in coming up with one third. I'm sure someone with better resources will come up with an exact figure.
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: What Happen to the "subway"in this site
        • Message Number: 755819
        • Posted by: David Pirmann
        • Date: Thu Jun 19 15:28:48 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: What Happen to the "subway"in this site posted by Gary Jacobi on June 19, 1997 at 14:50:47: The Facts and Figures booklet has the route miles statistic.. I didn't think about it at the time, but here's the stats: Underground - 137 route miles (61%) - 277 stations (61%) Elevated - 93 route miles (39%) - 191 stations (39%) Total - 230 route miles - 468 stations Okay, so the original poster is correct-- subway stations are underrepresented in our photographs in terms of both route miles and stations. (Odd that there are both 39% of route miles AND 39% of stations on the elevated/surface lines... I wouldn't have guessed that they would be so evenly distrubuted.) --Dave
          

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Thread title: San Jose LRT (755780)
Started on Thu Jun 19 01:52:14 1997, by Nathan

---

• Subject: San Jose LRT
• Message Number: 755780
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Thu Jun 19 01:52:14 1997
  
  Just wondering, the ALRV's used on the San Jose light rail system (I do not know the present name of the operating organization, they are rather schizophrenic with their name)are double ended or not. I only have seen pics of one end of the vehical.
  

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  • Subject: Re: San Jose LRT
  • Message Number: 755857
  • Posted by: Gary Jacobi
  • Date: Fri Jun 20 12:33:05 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]San Jose LRT posted by Nathan on June 19, 1997 at 01:52:14: Yes, they are double ended, which is a good thing, because they still run on an incomplete system with stub ends. The cars were built in Japan; Kawasaki I think, and are OK, but far from perfect.
    

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    • Subject: Re: San Jose LRT
    • Message Number: 755859
    • Posted by: Nathan
    • Date: Fri Jun 20 12:44:41 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: San Jose LRT posted by Gary Jacobi on June 20, 1997 at 12:33:05: No, the San Jose cars were built by the UTDC (now part of bombardier) in kingston On, in 1988. The LA Metroblah-blah LRT cars were made by (i think) kawasaki.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: San Jose LRT
      • Message Number: 756145
      • Posted by: Sylvain
      • Date: Thu Jun 26 21:11:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: San Jose LRT posted by Nathan on June 20, 1997 at 12:44:41: The Los Angles LRVs were made by Nippon Sharyo (the ones on the Ble Line). The vehicules from Kawasaki are found in Philadelphia.
        

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Thread title: RE: New Routes & Stuff (755781)
Started on Thu Jun 19 03:26:44 1997, by subway-buff

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• Subject: RE: New Routes & Stuff
• Message Number: 755781
• Posted by: subway-buff
• Date: Thu Jun 19 03:26:44 1997
  
  I have sevral sugegstions: 1- Run N in Manhattan as Express from Canal to 57. Express on 4th ave Brooklyn at all times. 2- During rush hours in peak direction run a B express as every other train using the center track on the west end El. 3- Run the B to Queensbridge at all times except when the shuttle. 3-Run the C to 168 at all times, 4- run a D express in Bronx in peak direction to replace C Rush hour.(every other train is a D express.) 5- Run J/Z on center track to Eastern Parkway in peak direction. 6- Swap the 3& 4 terminals. Run 4 to New Lots at all times, and the 3 to Utica. (They would still run as 4 to Woodlawn and 3 to 148). During rush hours in both directions a 3 express could run to New Lots giving those riders an option of East Side or West Side Manhattan. The 3 would still run das it presently does with no Midnight service. The 3 would still run Brooklyn Local and the 4 as Brooklyn Express. 7-Swap E & F Queens Terminal with F going to Jamaica Center and E to 179. During Midnight hours the E would replace F to Queensbridge.. This would give Jamaica patrons 1 train to Coney Island. 8- Run the G to Church Ave using local track and the F as Express to Church Ave using express tracks and lower level at Bergen.( Yes, I read the page- they can remove the tile from the stairs to lower level ! )
  

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  • Subject: Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff
  • Message Number: 755787
  • Posted by: John
  • Date: Thu Jun 19 06:59:18 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]RE: New Routes & Stuff posted by subway-buff on June 19, 1997 at 03:26:44: How you gonna get the E to Queensbridge?
    

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    • Subject: Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff
    • Message Number: 755801
    • Posted by: Steve
    • Date: Thu Jun 19 13:32:26 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]RE: New Routes & Stuff posted by subway-buff on June 19, 1997 at 03:26:44: It's likely that the C will run to 168th St. before long. The C service on the Concourse line will be replaced by the B train. Your plan is okay but you'd have to add 8 trains (64cars) to the Concourse fleet to support the Local/Express service. Coney Island is the only other yard that has R-68s (121 of them). If you move 64 cars what does Coney Island do with 57 R-68s? Can you really afford to use 64 of some of your newest (and best performing) cars for 1 am trp and 1 pm trip?
      

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      • Subject: Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff
      • Message Number: 755821
      • Posted by: subway-buff
      • Date: Thu Jun 19 16:58:06 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff posted by John on June 19, 1997 at 06:59:18: At first I thought I'd need the oops! train but then I remembered: There are switches at /near the south end of West Fourth that will alllow 8tyh ave trains to move over to 6th ave and vice versa. When the JFK Express ran it did just that.
        

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        • Subject: Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff
        • Message Number: 755856
        • Posted by: Gary Jacobi
        • Date: Fri Jun 20 12:27:35 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]RE: New Routes & Stuff posted by subway-buff on June 19, 1997 at 03:26:44: Re #5, the Broadway Express did operate on the center track all the way to Eastern Parkway at the time they instituted skip-stop on Jamaica Ave. I have been noticing many entries citing Marcy to Myrtle, and was wondering why. Apparently they stopped the arkway express segment some time ago, which boggles the mind, because two stops between ENY and Williamsburg was one quick trip! The only thing standing in the way of full peak direction express service had been the 1893 two track line between Eastern Parkway and Crescent Street, as the Jamaica Ave construction had room for a center track. There was discussion of an overhead third track above the Fulton St. stretch, but it also included eliminating the Crescent St. curve, at least for the express track. This would have ment tearing up neighborhoods, and the idea died.
          

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          • Subject: Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff
          • Message Number: 755866
          • Posted by: John
          • Date: Fri Jun 20 15:19:52 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff posted by Gary Jacobi on June 20, 1997 at 12:27:35: They discontinued express service between Myrtle and Marcy? I don't have the latest subway map - is it shown on the latest map?
            

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            • Subject: Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff
            • Message Number: 755937
            • Posted by: Mark Greenwald
            • Date: Sat Jun 21 16:17:09 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff posted by John on June 20, 1997 at 15:19:52: On the map dated "May 1996"---It shows the J/Z using the express tracks from Myrtle to Marcy & the J/M using the local tracks (depending on the time of day)
              

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              • Subject: Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff
              • Message Number: 756042
              • Posted by: John of Calgary
              • Date: Tue Jun 24 20:14:32 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]RE: New Routes & Stuff posted by subway-buff on June 19, 1997 at 03:26:44: Are you trying to make me laugh? Here, consider THIS! -Run G from 179 Street Jamaica to Stillwell Ave. Coney Island. as a Local and have F run on the Brighton Line. (D/Q line) and move the Q onto the Culver Line (F line) as an Express. -Make 4 terminate at Bowling Green and 5 go to Utica and 6 Should go to Flatbush at all times except Midnight hours when 2 goes to Utica and 6 goes to New Lots while 3 have its nightly siesta and 5 become a shuttle from Dyre Avenue to 125 Street. 1 and 9 then will assume the duty of serving Flatbush. (try to rotate them.) 4 will become a shuttle from Woodlawn to 125 Street to connect with 6. -Run C from 205 Street Norwood to Far Rockaway, sending A to Rockaway Park AT ALL TIMES! (No, the Rockaway S will remain.) -Run D to 205 Street Norwood to Coney lsland RUSH HOURS ONLY! Other times, the D goes to 21 Street Queensbridge. Q will go to 179 Street Jamaica AT ALL TIMES! -Run the M to Jamaica Center and put the Z to Metropolitian Av. and have the M go from Jamaica Center to Coney Island and Z from Metropolitian Av to Broad Street half of the time and the rest of the time it goes to Chambers Street. -Have the 7 Express be renamed to the 8. -Run the N from Jamaica Center to 95 Street Bay Ridge and R from Ditmars to Coney Island except late nights and weekends when they switch routes. -Have the 4 and 5 use Bleeker Street on their way to the Bronx. -Run the E to Lefferts Blvd rush hours and middays. Other times, continue running it to the WTC. -Run the 2 from 241 Street Wakefield to South Ferry except late nights when it serves Utica and 3 from 148 Street Lenox Terminal to Utica except late nights when it has its nightly siesta while 1 and 9 run from 242 Street to South Ferry except Late nights when one goes to Flatbush and the other staying at South Ferry. The next night, it switches between the 1 and 9. ALL OF THESE SHOULD BE IN EFFECT AT ALL TIMES EXCEPT WEEKENDS. WEEKEND SUGGESTIONS: -Keep G at Smith/9 Streets -Have F do 179 Street Jamaica while Q goes to Queesbridge. -Have the 5 go to New Lots and 6 to Flatbush. The 1 will go to New Lots and 9 will go to Flatbush. Half of the 4's will go from Woodlawn to Brooklyn Bridge and the other half to Bowling Green. 2 and 3 will go from their Northern terminals (Which is 148 Street and 241 Street Wakefield) to South Ferry. Doesn't this sound better?
                

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                • Subject: Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff
                • Message Number: 756051
                • Posted by: John
                • Date: Wed Jun 25 00:13:30 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [5]Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff posted by John of Calgary on June 24, 1997 at 20:14:32: If the 4 and 5 are going to remain express, they cannot stop at Bleeker Street (or they will have to make local stops between Brooklyn Bridge and 14th Street). Or, they can run express on the local tracks. Other than that, you are creating confusing situations between rotating and alternating routes and terminals and times and . . . ARHGHH!! What are you trying to do - drive everybody crazy??!!
                  

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                  • Subject: Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff
                  • Message Number: 756092
                  • Posted by: John of Calgary
                  • Date: Wed Jun 25 18:32:28 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [5]Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff posted by John on June 25, 1997 at 00:13:30: If the MTA could build something called a crossover that would connect the Northbound express track with the Northbound local track north of Spring Street, then the 4 and 5 can connect to BleekeR, STUPID! Or even better: abandon Bleeker and forget about it!
                    

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                    • Subject: Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff
                    • Message Number: 756095
                    • Posted by: John of Calgary
                    • Date: Wed Jun 25 19:33:44 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [5]Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff posted by John on June 25, 1997 at 00:13:30: Hey, pal, watch it! Although I live like 3,000 kilometers from New York, I know your subway system pretty well. (Due to the fact I visited your city last summer.
                      

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                      • Subject: Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff
                      • Message Number: 756096
                      • Posted by: John of Calgary
                      • Date: Wed Jun 25 19:55:07 1997
                        
                        In Reply to: [5]Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff posted by John of Calgary on June 25, 1997 at 18:32:28: Do you want a more general explanation? Here it is! - D and Q go between Coney Island and 179 Street Jamaica at all times. - F will go between 205 Street Norwood and Coney Island in the place of the D. - C go from Bedford Park Boulevard to Far Rockaway and run the A between 207 Street Inwood and Rockaway Park at all times except weekends when the C goes to the WTC. - J and M trade places in Queens. (J in Metropolitian and M to Jamaica Center) - G go from Jamaica Center to Coney Island except weekends when it goes from Queens Plaza to Smith/9th Streets. - 1 and 9 trade places with 2 and 3. (1 from 242 Street, Bronx to New Lots Avenue and 9 from 242 Street, Bronx to Flatbush and 2 from 241 Street, Bronx to South Ferry and 3 from 148 Street, Manhattan to South Ferry. At nights and weekends, 1 switches with 2 and 3 switches with 9) - Abandon Bleeker Street and turn it into a storage area or a museum. - the Rockaway S will start at Euclid Avenue and end at Rockaway Park at all times except weekends when it replaces the C. - Run the 4 between Pelham Bay Park and Bowling Green/Brooklyn Bridge. - Run the 6 between Dyre Avenue and Flatbush AT ALL TIMES. - Run the 5 between Woodlawn and Utica Avenue AT ALL TIMES. That's all. I hope you understand now.
                        

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                        • Subject: Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff
                        • Message Number: 756097
                        • Posted by: John of Calgary
                        • Date: Wed Jun 25 19:58:32 1997
                          
                          In Reply to: [5]Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff posted by John of Calgary on June 25, 1997 at 19:55:07: Oh yeah. build the Northbound Lexington Avenue Local past Broadway/LaFayette Avenue.
                          

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                          • Subject: Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff
                          • Message Number: 756111
                          • Posted by: John of Calgary
                          • Date: Thu Jun 26 01:20:49 1997
                            
                            In Reply to: [5]Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff posted by John of Calgary on June 25, 1997 at 19:58:32: One more comment. In Brooklyn, have the Broadway/7 Av.'s run as an Express and the Lexington Av.'s run as a local.
                            

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                            • Subject: Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff
                            • Message Number: 756127
                            • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
                            • Date: Thu Jun 26 16:20:32 1997
                              
                              In Reply to: [6]Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff posted by John of Calgary on June 26, 1997 at 01:20:49: First lets think for a minute about the design of the system. The way it was set up when the Dual Contracts extensions were constructed in the teens was that Lexington trains become Brooklyn Expresses and 7th Av. trains become Brooklyn Locals. Although there are crossovers at various locations the most important at Atlantic it would be very awkward to cross every train from express to local or vice-versa at that location. Sooner or later a signal would be run and the press would have a field day with another wreck! Thus the Lex express has to run at least one of its services express to Utica with the option of an extended run to New Lots. Likewise, both 7th Av. expresses have to run local in Brooklyn since only the local tracks can access the Flatbush branch easily, and some service as local to Utica is needed. When the 5 is extended into Brooklyn it must use a crossover to reach Flatbush and must be dovetailed with two other services. This is why it usually terminates in Manhattan. As far as route numbers are concerned, they designate the northern terminal and have little to do with the routing in Manhattan. Ie: 1/9 = 242-Broadway., 2 = 241-White Plains Rd., 3 = Lenox Terminal, 4 = Woodlawn, 5 = Dyre Av., 6 = 177 or Pelham. 1 & 3 have to run West Side and 4 and 6 have to run East Side. 2 and 5 can swap but both the 2 and 4 as Brooklyn Expresses would never work since the shorter 3 and 5 runs would not generate enough business in the Bronx to justify the necessary headways on the Brooklyn end. Thus things are pretty much cast in concrete with the exception of which train goes on which Brooklyn Branch. (The 2&3 swapped south terminals a few years ago. Now on the IND side, again the designations are related to where the train is going. ACE is Eighth Av, BDF is Sixth Av, G is BQ Crosstown. AB means Washington Heights, CD means Concourse, EF means Queens Everything Else is BMT - but now the southern destination counts. J is Jamaica Av., L is Carnasie, M is Myrtle, N is Sea Beach, Q is Brighton, R is Fourth Av. Local, T is West End. With that in hand, it doesn't matter whether a BMT route takes Sixth Av. or Broadway in Manhattan unless it's going to Astoria. Thus a routing from CI via Sea Beach to the Queens Line local tracks is an N but if it comes from 95th St. its an R. Thus your suggestion re: Astoria just undoes a terminal swap of a few years ago and leaves the R without a convenient yard (which is why the swap was done). "-Run G from 179 Street Jamaica to Stillwell Ave. Coney Island. as a Local and have F run on the Brighton Line. (D/Q line) and move the Q onto the Culver Line (F line) as an Express." -Run D to 205 Street Norwood to Coney lsland RUSH HOURS ONLY! Other times, the D goes to 21 Street Queensbridge. Q will go to 179 Street Jamaica AT ALL TIMES! Putting the F on the Brighton Line and the Q on Culver will create its own set of problems. Since you seem to indicate that both the N and the G will run local to 179th St., that leaves the F as an express. Since it is now running from Brighton it becomes a 6th Av. Express which may require use of the crossovers between 42 and 47-50 to straighten things out. Not Good at Rush Hour. Now what was the Q has a problem, since south of Church it can only be a one way express and north of Bergen it has to run local. And since it is no longer a Brighton train it isn't the Q anymore either. In fact there is no present BMT designation for the Culver line, so maybe we will ressurect the letter H and use that, since it is really an all IND routing. Planning services for a system as complex as NYCT required familiarity with the track map, ridership patterns and general geography. Try small changes and you will get more positive responses.
                              

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                              • Subject: Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff
                              • Message Number: 756162
                              • Posted by: M.J.S.
                              • Date: Fri Jun 27 13:00:08 1997
                                
                                In Reply to: [6]Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff posted by John of Calgary on June 25, 1997 at 19:55:07: All this is so stupid I'm not going to read any more of your suggestions. You will never get a job planning routes for the MTA.
                                

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Thread title: NYC BUS PHOTOS (755793)
Started on Thu Jun 19 10:57:29 1997, by Charles

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• Subject: NYC BUS PHOTOS
• Message Number: 755793
• Posted by: Charles
• Date: Thu Jun 19 10:57:29 1997
  
  Does anyone know of any New York City Bus photos on the internet other than the NYCT's Home page?
  

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  • Subject: Re: NYC BUS PHOTOS
  • Message Number: 755811
  • Posted by: Bryan Layne
  • Date: Thu Jun 19 14:21:06 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]NYC BUS PHOTOS posted by Charles on June 19, 1997 at 10:57:29: There are a couple at the [7]Busspot Website .
    

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    • Subject: Re: NYC BUS PHOTOS
    • Message Number: 755840
    • Posted by: David Pirmann
    • Date: Thu Jun 19 21:19:21 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]NYC BUS PHOTOS posted by Charles on June 19, 1997 at 10:57:29: I just put up some bus pictures that I had sitting around that Bob Redden had posted to the net some time ago. http://www.nycsubway.org/nyctabus Enjoy! Dave
      

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Thread title: Re: Toronto Tube (755795)
Started on Thu Jun 19 12:05:20 1997, by Brian W

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• Subject: Re: Toronto Tube
• Message Number: 755795
• Posted by: Brian W
• Date: Thu Jun 19 12:05:20 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Toronto Tube (was Re: NYC screen saver ideas... posted by Nathan on June 18, 1997 at 16:19:44: I don't have any pictures of the old aluminum G-Cars. Sorry!! If you really want to see some, however, when you're in Toronto, ride the subway by both Davisville yard (between Davisville and St. Clair) and Wilson yard (between Wilson and Downsview). Look for silver-coloured cars that are kind of old-looking, have only three doors on either side (instead of four), and have a yellow "racing stripe" running across them. Sometimes they're there, and sometimes they're not.
  

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Thread title: T.O. Signal Maps (755796)
Started on Thu Jun 19 12:53:26 1997, by Brian

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• Subject: T.O. Signal Maps
• Message Number: 755796
• Posted by: Brian
• Date: Thu Jun 19 12:53:26 1997
  
  This site offers a track map of the Toronto subway, and that's great. But does anyone know where I can get a SIGNAL map, that is, a map with the track on it that includes the signals and indicates their type (standard, interlocking, repeater)?
  

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  • Subject: Re: T.O. Signal Maps
  • Message Number: 755848
  • Posted by: Nathan
  • Date: Fri Jun 20 02:11:47 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]T.O. Signal Maps posted by Brian on June 19, 1997 at 12:53:26: I'll be in T.O. for about 6 weeks this summer, and I have a relative who was a ttc motorman on the subway almost since it's conception. Anyway, he probably has oodles of ttc maps, signal stuff, manuals hanging around. If i can scrounge something up I'll let you know.
    

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    • Subject: Re: T.O. Signal Maps
    • Message Number: 756832
    • Posted by: Brian W
    • Date: Mon Aug 25 19:53:37 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: T.O. Signal Maps posted by Nathan on June 20, 1997 at 02:11:47: Thank you!
      

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Thread title: New R-142's and 143's (755800)
Started on Thu Jun 19 13:29:27 1997, by Bingo

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• Subject: New R-142's and 143's
• Message Number: 755800
• Posted by: Bingo
• Date: Thu Jun 19 13:29:27 1997
  
  O.K., I've browsed this system, and found out that there will be new trains arriving for the MTA, or the IRT or whatever. I am intrigued. Now I ask: 1) Which transit system will they be serviced upon? 2) Who is their manufacturer? Bombardier? Kawasaki? Does Westinghouse still make trains? 3) Will they replace any rolling stock currently in service? 4) Will they be made of steel? What is their buff strength? 5) Will they have these surveillance cameras on board? 6) Are they equipped for full automation? (driverless remote) 7) Why should I care? I'm a fucking Canadian living hundreds of miles away. 8) What will their series #'s? 9) When can I hope to ride on one? I have a zillion more questions, but I know when to shut up. (Or maybe I don't. If you feel my questions are too long, I invite you to express your anger toward me through this message.)
  

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  • Subject: Re: New R-142's and 143's
  • Message Number: 755802
  • Posted by: Steve
  • Date: Thu Jun 19 13:40:45 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]New R-142's and 143's posted by Bingo on June 19, 1997 at 13:29:27: The answers to some of your questions: 1) The R-142 will replace the Redbirds. They will run on the Westside IRT and the Corona lines. I am not sure if they will run on the East Side IRT because of the Gap-fillers. 2) The cars will be built by Kawasaki Heavy Industries and Bombardier. Westinghouse still builds cars under the corporate name of ADTRANZ. 3) Yes - the redbirds will be replaced on the A division and it's likely the R-40s will be replaced on the B division 4) Who cares.. 5) Probably not 6) No 7) See #4 (language is inappropriate) 8) Probably beginning with 6300 but I am not sure. 9) Try mid 1999
    

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    • Subject: Re: New R-142's and 143's
    • Message Number: 755807
    • Posted by: Bingo
    • Date: Thu Jun 19 13:55:35 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: New R-142's and 143's posted by Steve on June 19, 1997 at 13:40:45: 1999!?!! That's #@%!!?! insane! Why the &%$@ is it taking so long? (My guess is red tape and paperwork. BTW, Kawasaki built those PA class cars for PATH, did they not?)
      

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      • Subject: Re: New R-142's and 143's
      • Message Number: 755810
      • Posted by: David Pirmann
      • Date: Thu Jun 19 14:14:57 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: New R-142's and 143's posted by Bingo on June 19, 1997 at 13:55:35: 1999 is only 18 months away. To build 1050 subway cars in 18 months probably isn't all that bad considering the budget to pay for them hasn't actually been approved yet (so whether work has even started yet is doubtful). Assuming they take till December 1999 to deliver them all that's averages between the two manufacturers more than 1 car completed per day. Kawasaki built Path's PA-4 class cars (800 series). The prior PA class cars were built by St. Louis Car and Hawker-Siddeley of Canada. All of the PA classes are still in service although I've seen some PA cars coupled to flatcars and such in work service. (The earlier St. Louis cars, the MP-52 and K classes, are mostly all still around as work cars. There were 50 total MP-52/K cars. Last weekend I think I saw about 50% of them still in use.) See [7]Path Roster for details.
        

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        • Subject: Re: New R-142's and 143's
        • Message Number: 755813
        • Posted by: Bingo
        • Date: Thu Jun 19 14:31:38 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: New R-142's and 143's posted by David Pirmann on June 19, 1997 at 14:14:57: How much will the 42's and 43's cost for each car? Will they be built in Thunder Bay like the T-1's were?
          

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          • Subject: Re: New R-142's and 143's
          • Message Number: 755822
          • Posted by: Steve
          • Date: Thu Jun 19 17:00:07 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: New R-142's and 143's posted by Bingo on June 19, 1997 at 14:31:38: Best estimate is about $1.2 million per car however because of the new technology involved in these cars, NYCT will be requesting many hi tech frills like diagnostic computers and parts catalogs on CD-ROM and many spare parts. It's likely that the final cost will likely be somewhat higher. As for where the cars will be built, I think you'll find that the final assembly will be done in NY State. Kawasaki has a plant in Yonkers, NY, already.
            

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            • Subject: Re: New R-142's and 143's
            • Message Number: 755869
            • Posted by: Nick
            • Date: Fri Jun 20 15:42:10 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: New R-142's and 143's posted by Steve on June 19, 1997 at 17:00:07: If your talking about December 1999, it's 30 months till they arrive, not 18. But that's still not bad. Getting new cars is a slooooow process! -NICK
              

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              • Subject: Re: New R-142's and 143's
              • Message Number: 755872
              • Posted by: David Pirmann
              • Date: Fri Jun 20 16:00:13 1997
                
                In Reply to: [6]Re: New R-142's and 143's posted by Nick on June 20, 1997 at 15:42:10: Right. 1999 starts in 18 months... I was saying that it's not as far away as it seems. I used 30 months to figure there would be an average of more than 1 car per day- there's approx 900 days in 30 months, and 1050 cars to be delivered. I think that's a pretty good rate. --Dave
                

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                • Subject: Re: New R-142's and 143's
                • Message Number: 755877
                • Posted by: Bingo
                • Date: Fri Jun 20 16:36:49 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [5]Re: New R-142's and 143's posted by Steve on June 19, 1997 at 17:00:07: Soooo, are we looking at an even 2 million? *grin* I know TTC paid Bombardier a handsome sum for the T-1's, and most of them haven't arrived yet! BTW, has transit car manufacturing become a monopolized or at least curtailed business in North America? Maybe Hitachi can be called on to give Kawasaki some competition (New PA-5 cars perhaps)
                  

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                  • Subject: Re: New R-142's and 143's
                  • Message Number: 755885
                  • Posted by: Nathan
                  • Date: Fri Jun 20 17:20:34 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [5]Re: New R-142's and 143's posted by Steve on June 19, 1997 at 17:00:07: Yes, I'm aware of the Kawasaki plant in Yonkers (the sign of no life, I only live about 3000 miles away) but the Bombardier built cars would probably be manufactured in Thunder Bay (brrrrrr, cold) at Bombardier's Thunder Bay plant; the American Plants owned by Bombardier (Aubern, Barre, etc) specialize in finish of the vehicals. Bombardier would probably build them in Thunder bay, same as the T-1's, and Ankara cars (which resemble m-trains minus one front window). The Computer diagnostic stuff won't be too much of a problem, New York won't receive these cars until 1999, so any troubles would be first encountered by the Toronto T-1s (using the same technology), the Ontario tax-payer would be required to pay for the solution/upgrade to the problem, and this solution would probably be incorporated into the New York cars. As for the newfangled Computer Diagnostic kits, well, I can just picture roving mechanics walking around a train, slowly scanning it with a little beeping star trek tricorder...
                    

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                    • Subject: Re: New R-142's and 143's
                    • Message Number: 755899
                    • Posted by: Steve
                    • Date: Fri Jun 20 21:12:46 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [5]Re: New R-142's and 143's posted by Bingo on June 20, 1997 at 16:36:49: Actually, two north american railcar builders didn't even bid on the R-142s and R-143s. The Railcar division spinoff of Morrison Knudsen in Hornell, NY and ABB Traction of Elmira, NY showed no real interest. M & K built the new CTA cars as well as the New Haven M-6s and ABB Traction built the Norristown cars (pics elsewhere on this site).
                      

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                      • Subject: Re: New R-142's and 143's
                      • Message Number: 755908
                      • Posted by: Zack
                      • Date: Fri Jun 20 23:05:58 1997
                        
                        In Reply to: [6]Re: New R-142's and 143's posted by Nick on June 20, 1997 at 15:42:10: yeah it aloso takes time to tool up, instruct the workrs how to build the cars and start assembling the parts and all those 1001 things that need to be done with.(not bad for somphting the government does. :))
                        

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                        • Subject: Re: New R-142's and 143's
                        • Message Number: 755925
                        • Posted by: Bingo
                        • Date: Sat Jun 21 14:19:35 1997
                          
                          In Reply to: [5]Re: New R-142's and 143's posted by David Pirmann on June 20, 1997 at 16:00:13: Will the new 42's and 43's run on AC or DC motors?
                          

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                          • Subject: Re: New R-142's and 143's
                          • Message Number: 755943
                          • Posted by: Lou
                          • Date: Sat Jun 21 20:25:49 1997
                            
                            In Reply to: [5]Re: New R-142's and 143's posted by Zack on June 20, 1997 at 23:05:58: Acceptance Testing of the First Cars. Maybe run them down ye old N line in brooklyn or are they gonna run them on the LIRR like the 44's (nah they won't clear some of the 3rd rail gaps at the interlockings, IRT is a short car ).
                            

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                            • Subject: Re: New R-142's and 143's
                            • Message Number: 755952
                            • Posted by: Steve
                            • Date: Sat Jun 21 22:14:59 1997
                              
                              In Reply to: [5]Re: New R-142's and 143's posted by Lou on June 21, 1997 at 20:25:49: Acceptance testing can be done anywhere. The R110s were run over the mainlines in simulated service (making station stops but not opening doors). The running on the LIRR is not really necessary. That was done just that one time because of some federal gov't tests. And don't get hung up on 3rd rail gaps. You can easily gap one half of the train and keep on moving (as lond as your batteries are okay)
                              

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                              • Subject: Re: New R-142's and 143's
                              • Message Number: 755954
                              • Posted by: Steve
                              • Date: Sat Jun 21 22:23:14 1997
                                
                                In Reply to: [5]Re: New R-142's and 143's posted by Bingo on June 21, 1997 at 14:19:35: They will have AC motors.
                                

                                ---

                                • Subject: Re: New R-142's and 143's
                                • Message Number: 755956
                                • Posted by: David Pirmann
                                • Date: Sat Jun 21 23:04:01 1997
                                  
                                  In Reply to: [6]Re: New R-142's and 143's posted by Lou on June 21, 1997 at 20:25:49: They tested the 51' PATH PA-1 cars on the LIRR in early 1965. The May 1965 of the ERA Headlights magazine has an article about this. I have some slides of this testing that I'll be putting on the web site in the near future. One of them is of the really tiny PATH car coupled to the back of a huge (relatively) PRR GG1. The GG1 towed the PATH car from the Northeast Corridor area in Harrison/Kearny thru Pennsylvania Station out to Sunnyside Yard, where it then ran on its own power out the LIRR mainline. I've got pictures of it running at Woodside and other places... So there wouldn't be a problem testing an IRT style train on the LIRR. --Dave
                                  

                                  ---

                                  • Subject: Re: New R-142's and 143's
                                  • Message Number: 755993
                                  • Posted by: Bingo
                                  • Date: Mon Jun 23 14:48:14 1997
                                    
                                    In Reply to: [5]Re: New R-142's and 143's posted by Steve on June 21, 1997 at 22:23:14: I read that around 1992 Bombardier released an experimental set of cars called the R-110A that were supposed to accrue customer response in how they wanted the next generation (the 142's 43's) to look and perform. Where did these cars go? Are they still in service? What do they look like?
                                    

                                    ---

                                    • Subject: Re: New R-142's and 143's
                                    • Message Number: 756011
                                    • Posted by: Steve
                                    • Date: Mon Jun 23 21:27:28 1997
                                      
                                      In Reply to: [6]Re: New R-142's and 143's posted by Bingo on June 23, 1997 at 14:48:14: The R-110A and R-110B are still in service? I have a pix of them together (which is not for publication) if you send me your E-Mail address.
                                      

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Thread title: Re: Javits Center Service Idea (second try!) (755820)
Started on Thu Jun 19 16:18:41 1997, by Peter Rosa

---

• Subject: Re: Javits Center Service Idea (second try!)
• Message Number: 755820
• Posted by: Peter Rosa
• Date: Thu Jun 19 16:18:41 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Javits Center Service Idea posted by Peter Rosa on June 19, 1997 at 13:43:40: Sorry about the first attempt, it got cut off before all was posted. In any event, my point is that extending the 7 train to the Javits Center would require at least some tunnelling, while adding a "Javits platform" to the LIRR's West Side yard wouldn't. The latter therefore would be a quick and dirty solution, which is probably the best we can hope for :-)
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: Javits Center Service Idea (second try!)
  • Message Number: 755955
  • Posted by: Steve
  • Date: Sat Jun 21 22:29:35 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Javits Center Service Idea (second try!) posted by Peter Rosa on June 19, 1997 at 16:18:41: I think that the most we can hope for will be shuttle bus service. Take a look at the Colliseum. It's not that old and all but abandoned. By the time any rail connection to the Javitts Center were built, the Center would be obsolete. Perhaps the next time, a rail link will be part of the plans for any new exhibition center. Perhaps as part of the 'WestWay' projects or Battery Park City. Do you think any of (them) will ever learn?
    

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Thread title: New Cars for PATH ? (755824)
Started on Thu Jun 19 17:16:41 1997, by subway-buff

---

• Subject: New Cars for PATH ?
• Message Number: 755824
• Posted by: subway-buff
• Date: Thu Jun 19 17:16:41 1997
  
  I see one possible problem with full width cabs (transverse cabs) on PATH- Platform length=- Exchange Place at present allows 7 carss to open-the conductor to WTC must open only the doors to the cars behind the first car. Also- platforms on the 33rd street line only hold 7 cars and the lead car on the 6th ave stations at 14 and 23 is almost off the platform. There is only a very narrow platform. Of course, PATH may keep the conductor in which case the modification is unneeded (or they have to add a lock out on the lead car to be controleld by the motorman.) I am looking forward to the PA-5 cars. The PA 1- PA 3 cars are shopwign their age. If you will look the the roof you can see rust or corrosion at the rivet lines and several have watch appears to be patches elsewhere ont he roof. The PA 1-PA 3 only have two sets of doors on each sider while the PA-4 have 3 sets. The PA 1 to PA 3 may have been advanced for their time, but the have done their work and need to retire. I do ride PATH every weekend.
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: New Cars for PATH ?
  • Message Number: 755826
  • Posted by: Jim
  • Date: Thu Jun 19 17:22:11 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]New Cars for PATH ? posted by subway-buff on June 19, 1997 at 17:16:41: Since Path cars are just standard IRT cars, Path should not be buying new cars. They should wait until the R-142s are delivered and they can then buy the redbirds for about $100 each.
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: New Cars for PATH ?
    • Message Number: 755832
    • Posted by: David Pirmann
    • Date: Thu Jun 19 19:39:23 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: New Cars for PATH ? posted by Jim on June 19, 1997 at 17:22:11: Why would anyone want a fleet of cars older than what they currently have???? The redbirds are rusted and corroded (take a look at the area where the wall meets the flooring on the outside of the cars). No one is going to buy them for any price--PATH isn't that desperate. --Dave
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: New Cars for PATH ?
      • Message Number: 755837
      • Posted by: Jim
      • Date: Thu Jun 19 20:40:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: New Cars for PATH ? posted by David Pirmann on June 19, 1997 at 19:39:23: I know that and you know that but to read some of the postings here you'd think the redbirds were the greatest thing since the bikini.
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: New Cars for PATH ?
        • Message Number: 755846
        • Posted by: Nathan
        • Date: Fri Jun 20 02:08:33 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]New Cars for PATH ? posted by subway-buff on June 19, 1997 at 17:16:41: who will build the PA-5's?
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: New Cars for PATH ?
          • Message Number: 755847
          • Posted by: Nathan
          • Date: Fri Jun 20 02:09:36 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]New Cars for PATH ? posted by subway-buff on June 19, 1997 at 17:16:41: who will build the PA-5's?
            

            ---

            • Subject: Re: New Cars for PATH ?
            • Message Number: 755868
            • Posted by: Bingo
            • Date: Fri Jun 20 15:35:50 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: New Cars for PATH ? posted by Jim on June 19, 1997 at 20:40:14: You must remember that older rolling stock don't perform as well as newer stock, and are prone to many problems. Paying any price, no matter how low it is, for older equipment is risky business. Transit services want to make money, not piss their customers off through needless delays.
              

              ---

              • Subject: Re: New Cars for PATH ?
              • Message Number: 755905
              • Posted by: Andrew Huie
              • Date: Fri Jun 20 22:11:36 1997
                
                In Reply to: [6]New Cars for PATH ? posted by subway-buff on June 19, 1997 at 17:16:41: Are you sure the PA-4's have 3 sets of doors? I thought I've seen every car they had so far, and I haven't seen any 3-door-sets-per-side cars since the MP-50's (and the "sets" in that case were 1 door each). If they have 3 sets of doors on each side, how is it arranged?
                

                ---

                • Subject: Re: New Cars for PATH ?
                • Message Number: 755915
                • Posted by: David Pirmann
                • Date: Sat Jun 21 12:26:23 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [6]Re: New Cars for PATH ? posted by Andrew Huie on June 20, 1997 at 22:11:36: Yup, they do. They're offset from each other, rather than directly across like in the PA1,2,3 classes(two doors per side). There's pictures on the site. [7]example of PA-1,2,3 class cars, #740 [8]example of PA-4 class car --Dave
                  

                  ---

                  • Subject: Re: New Cars for PATH ?
                  • Message Number: 755916
                  • Posted by: David Pirmann
                  • Date: Sat Jun 21 12:29:56 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [6]Re: New Cars for PATH ? posted by Nathan on June 20, 1997 at 02:08:33: Well no one knows yet since no RFP has been placed. (Request for Proposal) I've heard that the ordering process might begin this year but I've seen nothing definite. An RFP has to be done, then bids placed, THEN we'll know who's going to build them. --Dave
                    

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Thread title: Subway Car Costs. (755825)
Started on Thu Jun 19 17:18:45 1997, by Steve

---

• Subject: Subway Car Costs.
• Message Number: 755825
• Posted by: Steve
• Date: Thu Jun 19 17:18:45 1997
  
  The estimate of $1.2 million per car for the R-142s & R-143s may seem astounding but consider the cost of these cars: R-32 $114,951 new in 1964 $419,913 overhaul in 1988 R-33 (Corona) $108,500 new R-36 (Corona) $110,563 new R-38 $111,733 new 1966-67 $376,901 overhaul in 1988 R-40 $115,517 new 1969 $376,000 overhaul in 1988-89 R-46 $275,381 new 1975-77 $490,000 overhaul in 1990-91 R-62 & 62A new $845,000 & 798,700 respectively R-68 & R-68A new $915,000 no price was available for the R-9s but the R-10s were about $77,000 the R-12s were about $71,500 but the R-11s were $121,373. All were built in 1949. This should explain why the R-11s were never built in any quantity.
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: Subway Car Costs.
  • Message Number: 755833
  • Posted by: David Pirmann
  • Date: Thu Jun 19 19:50:30 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Subway Car Costs. posted by Steve on June 19, 1997 at 17:18:45: The high price of the R11 might also be explained by its *LACK* of quantity building. If they had built more than 10 of them the economy of scale could have contributed to a lower cost per car. (Probably not THAT much but maybe the cost could have been lowered to $100K.)
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: Subway Car Costs.
    • Message Number: 755836
    • Posted by: Steve
    • Date: Thu Jun 19 20:38:29 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Subway Car Costs. posted by David Pirmann on June 19, 1997 at 19:50:30: Could be but I suspect that the choice of Stainless Steel might have also been a factor.
      

---

Thread title: TTC Small Witt RT-10 (755850)
Started on Fri Jun 20 02:22:41 1997, by Nathan

---

• Subject: TTC Small Witt RT-10
• Message Number: 755850
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Fri Jun 20 02:22:41 1997
  
  I know the TTC used (at one time) a Small Witt car (that was converted to 3rd rail power collection) as a garbage car. Is this ancient car still in use, retired, scrapped, or sitting on the ttc property?
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: TTC Small Witt RT-10
  • Message Number: 755860
  • Posted by: Dan Lawrence
  • Date: Fri Jun 20 12:55:53 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]TTC Small Witt RT-10 posted by Nathan on June 20, 1997 at 02:22:41: As far as I know the TTC is on it's THIRD garbage car - I believe that the Witt was replaced after the Glouster car fire with a custom built Japanese body on salvaged Glouster trucks and equipment. That car was retired just this year and replaced with newer equipment.
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: TTC Small Witt RT-10
    • Message Number: 755861
    • Posted by: Dan Lawrence
    • Date: Fri Jun 20 12:56:31 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]TTC Small Witt RT-10 posted by Nathan on June 20, 1997 at 02:22:41: As far as I know the TTC is on it's THIRD garbage car - I believe that the Witt was replaced after the Glouster car fire with a custom built Japanese body on salvaged Glouster trucks and equipment. That car was retired just this year and replaced with newer equipment.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: TTC Small Witt RT-10
      • Message Number: 755873
      • Posted by: Bingo
      • Date: Fri Jun 20 16:11:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: TTC Small Witt RT-10 posted by Dan Lawrence on June 20, 1997 at 12:56:31: If there was any new equipment purchased for garbage collection, I would have seen it by now. I am usually on the system late at night when the pickup is done (around midnight, 1 a.m.) and have seen the following cars: 2 sets of Hawker-Siddelly round windows garbage cars 1 set of Gloucester silver garbage cars (only on Y-U-S line) 1 set of (I think) MLW garbage cars (They are characterized by a totally black roof) (Only seen once, on B-D line) Garbage is collected by truck for the RT line
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: TTC Small Witt RT-10
        • Message Number: 755962
        • Posted by: Dan Lawrence
        • Date: Sun Jun 22 00:12:14 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: TTC Small Witt RT-10 posted by Dan Lawrence on June 20, 1997 at 12:56:31: Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't RT-10 rebuilt from a Large Witt??
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: TTC Small Witt RT-10
          • Message Number: 755964
          • Posted by: Nathan
          • Date: Sun Jun 22 01:23:10 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: TTC Small Witt RT-10 posted by Dan Lawrence on June 22, 1997 at 00:12:14: Weren't all the TTC Witts considered "Small" Witts?
            

            ---

            • Subject: Re: TTC Small Witt RT-10
            • Message Number: 755978
            • Posted by: Dan Lawrence
            • Date: Sun Jun 22 19:26:57 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: TTC Small Witt RT-10 posted by Nathan on June 22, 1997 at 01:23:10: No, there were two general series of witts - Large Witts (which were equipped to pull trailers) and Small Witts (which were not) The Large Witts were last used on Bay, while the Small Witts lasted into the 1960's. Examples of both types are at Halton County and THERE is a difference.
              

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Thread title: Transit in Movies - Again (755854)
Started on Fri Jun 20 10:19:24 1997, by David Pirmann

---

• Subject: Transit in Movies - Again
• Message Number: 755854
• Posted by: David Pirmann
• Date: Fri Jun 20 10:19:24 1997
  
  A while ago we were talking about subway scenes in movies. Well here's one no one mentioned... Saturday Night Fever. Yes, I watched it on TNT last night. Never saw it before actually. But seriously, there's a few subway scenes. The film opens with a number of shots of the West End - B train on the el in Brooklyn. R-38 cars with the old-style signs (e.g. plain white "B" in a plain white circular outline). I think this film was made in either '77 or '78 which predated the current colored-circle line indicators. Near the end John Travolta's character rides the RR line in Bay Ridge which was made up of a train of R27/30 cars, with the off-brown/orange seats and checkerboard floors, and the vent holes above the windows. Some good views of the interior of the otherwise empty car. This train had an "RR" indicator in big letters with no circle. There's also a brief scene where a R44/R46 train passes by on the express track. Well, nothing to do with the plot, anyway, but some interesting scenes. --Dave
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: Transit in Movies - Again
  • Message Number: 755874
  • Posted by: Bingo
  • Date: Fri Jun 20 16:16:10 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Transit in Movies - Again posted by David Pirmann on June 20, 1997 at 10:19:24: Why is it that in Jurassic Park: The Lost World when Malcolm is on the MTA, the doors close with THREE chimes like in Toronto and not TWO? Do movie companies share sound bites with each other, totally disregarding detail, detail, detail? (By the way, I think Ghost was filmed in Toronto)
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: Transit in Movies - Again
    • Message Number: 755878
    • Posted by: David Pirmann
    • Date: Fri Jun 20 16:38:08 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Transit in Movies - Again posted by Bingo on June 20, 1997 at 16:16:10: Re: Ghost... I heard that the platform scene was filmed at the lower level of 42nd Street / 8Th Avenue. But it's been years since I've seen the movie. From what I recall there is more than a passing resemblence.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: Transit in Movies - Again
      • Message Number: 755883
      • Posted by: Nathan
      • Date: Fri Jun 20 17:08:21 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Transit in Movies - Again posted by Bingo on June 20, 1997 at 16:16:10: Three chimes dadadadada. When (exactly) were the door chimes added to the TTC Trains? I guess the conductors who blew the whistle when the doors were closing got bored. Does the SRT not use three chimes too (except the three notes go up the pitch-scale instead of down, as seen on the subway). The best door closing thing I have heard so far was on one of my mundane WCE trips; these lights flash, a series of screeches is heard, and (prior to the screeching/beeps) the conductor said, "The Doors are now closing, please make sure your wives are kept clear of the doors". At the end of that trip it was, "Now arriving: Waterfront station. This will be our last stop, please don't forget to take your coats, umbrellas, and wives." !
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: Transit in Movies - Again
        • Message Number: 755886
        • Posted by: Bingo
        • Date: Fri Jun 20 17:25:22 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: Transit in Movies - Again posted by Nathan on June 20, 1997 at 17:08:21: The chimes were added during TTC's "We care about our beloved customers safety" extravaganza that went on during 1993-94. They tested chimes, safety gates at the end of Davisville and Rosedale stations, the blind peoples platform markers, Designated Waiting Areas, and some other stuff I can't, nor want to, remember. It was all stupid and pointless, and more that half of these moronic ideas were thrown down the toilet. SRT sounds the same as the subways, except they modified the sound that originally shipped with the cars (a frighteningly loud, beeping sound) They still use whistles on the MLW trains, though, and I always get this tear in my eye...
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: Transit in Movies - Again
          • Message Number: 755890
          • Posted by: John
          • Date: Fri Jun 20 17:54:14 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: Transit in Movies - Again posted by Bingo on June 20, 1997 at 16:16:10: Another thing that I don't understand about that is that when Malcom sat in the set of three longitudinal seats (the train was an R-46), it was right against a window. In the R-44, R-46, R-68, and R-68A, the longitudinal seats are not against any window. Explaination?
            

            ---

            • Subject: Re: Transit in Movies - Again
            • Message Number: 755903
            • Posted by: Steve
            • Date: Fri Jun 20 21:44:13 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: Transit in Movies - Again posted by John on June 20, 1997 at 17:54:14: The scene you are referring to was filmed at the Church Avenue Station on the F line. The longitudinal seats are the seats perpendicular to the car side. On the cars with such seating, those seats are abreast of the windows. However, they are only two hinies wide. I was not present at the filming, nor have I seen the movie so I can't visualize the scene but I can tell you that the chime sound had to be dubbed because the cars had a standard chime when they left Jamaica yard prior to the filming.
              

              ---

              • Subject: Re: Transit in Movies - Again
              • Message Number: 755907
              • Posted by: John
              • Date: Fri Jun 20 22:47:40 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]Re: Transit in Movies - Again posted by Steve on June 20, 1997 at 21:44:13: Ooops! I must have used the wrong term for the seats. What I meant was the set of three seats against the wall of the train (facing inward).
                

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Thread title: Re: Coffee Bars and Bullet nosed Lada's (Was, um... I forget) (755880)
Started on Fri Jun 20 16:49:55 1997, by Bingo

---

• Subject: Re: Coffee Bars and Bullet nosed Lada's (Was, um... I forget)
• Message Number: 755880
• Posted by: Bingo
• Date: Fri Jun 20 16:49:55 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Toronto Tube (was Re: NYC screen saver ideas... posted by Nathan on June 20, 1997 at 16:33:06: What about the COFFEE BARS, Goddammit! The coffee bars! I need my f------ coffee! Hamilton is just too much! *much sobbing, weeping, whining etc. etc.* The people there are just so sad! BTW, was this GM built engine a derivative of the funny looking train that VIA used in the 70's for a couple of years until they found that the service was unprofitable and the train was built like a Lada? You know what I mean... it had like this bullet nose and was really streamlined-like...
  

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  • Subject: Re: Coffee Bars and Bullet nosed Lada's (Was, um... I forget)
  • Message Number: 755893
  • Posted by: Nathan
  • Date: Fri Jun 20 20:01:15 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Coffee Bars and Bullet nosed Lada's (Was, um... I forget) posted by Bingo on June 20, 1997 at 16:49:55: Ah, the infamous turbotrain, yes. Now, coffee, chances are GO Transit probably won't be including coffee bars anytime soon, seeing as they do not absolutely need to attract new riders (unless the evil-satan Mike Harris chops down the subsidies). You see, in a new system, it must be made overly comfortable to attract new riders out of their cadillacs. That's why here the government of british columbia went overboard (oh well, more than mike harris is doing) and with bombardier turned commuting into some luxury type thing. Grey/blue soft insides, cushy seats (with head rests that are actually at head level), coffee bars (yes, on board coffee bars) and my personal favorite: Alarm strips and passenger talk balk intercoms... hehehe
    

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    • Subject: Re: Coffee Bars and Bullet nosed Lada's (Was, um... I forget)
    • Message Number: 755921
    • Posted by: Bingo
    • Date: Sat Jun 21 13:41:27 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Coffee Bars and Bullet nosed Lada's (Was, um... I forget) posted by Nathan on June 20, 1997 at 20:01:15: Well, there are coffee bars on all AmTrak runs, like the one I took between Toronto and Chicago. Why could'nt they splurge a bit? Maybe get my favorite Second Cup (Die Starbucks! die die die!) to run a few franchises on the longer runs. Of course, on AmTrak, you're just waiting for some crazy psycho from the American White Trash Militia to put a penny on the track and watch the chaos ensue. Stupid turbotrain couldn't even run in snow! We had cushy seats on the early 60's trains, but the standard are those anti-vandal seats that they're putting on all the H-5's now. I still love those bench seats, they're so good on your ass! And you sleep like a baby on them!
      

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Thread title: Re: TTC Small Witt RT-10/anti silver car message (755881)
Started on Fri Jun 20 16:59:39 1997, by Nathan

---

• Subject: Re: TTC Small Witt RT-10/anti silver car message
• Message Number: 755881
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Fri Jun 20 16:59:39 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: TTC Small Witt RT-10 posted by Bingo on June 20, 1997 at 16:11:05: so the Witt has been scrapped? Hmmm, why did they have to use the SILVER Gloucester cars for garbage duty? I would so much rather see my beloved RED G-cars on the system still, the subway lacks personality now, I hate sterile silver, and have since I was about 2. "Daddy! Hurry up!! A red one!! Quick!! I don't want a silver one!" anyway, i think silver sux and would much rather see RED cars on the subway. What's next, are the LRV's going to be turned into stainless steal boxes, blinding everyone with their ugliness? Good god. P.S. I know that cars 5098-99 are preserved at the Halton Radial Rlwy Museum, but does that museum have any plans to maybe (idea) convert one track circuit to 3rd rail, or even just add a 3rd rail and leave the cantenary intact so trolleys could use the same line, I mean, they have those beautiful G-cars, why not put them into operating order? Then maybe they could acquire (if funds were available) some MLW cars, and maybe a silver "G" (WHICH I STILL HAVEN'T SEEN!!!) that would be something. Silver cars just don't scream "Ride the Rocket".
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: TTC Small Witt RT-10/anti silver car message
  • Message Number: 755884
  • Posted by: Bingo
  • Date: Fri Jun 20 17:12:01 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: TTC Small Witt RT-10/anti silver car message posted by Nathan on June 20, 1997 at 16:59:39: How true! I totally second that! Unfortunately, the Halton Museums storage does not allow for that. There are also safety regulations that they must abide by. I also have this feeling (from the pictures i've seen) that the trucks have been tampered with and modified to fit in with the rest of the collection at the museum!
    

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    • Subject: Re: TTC Small Witt RT-10/anti silver car message
    • Message Number: 755891
    • Posted by: John
    • Date: Fri Jun 20 17:56:14 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: TTC Small Witt RT-10/anti silver car message posted by Bingo on June 20, 1997 at 17:12:01: Were these cars all-red? How close in resemblance are they to the New York subway's redbirds?
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: TTC Small Witt RT-10/anti silver car message
      • Message Number: 755896
      • Posted by: Nathan
      • Date: Fri Jun 20 20:35:28 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: TTC Small Witt RT-10/anti silver car message posted by John on June 20, 1997 at 17:56:14: The G-Cars did not really resemble the Red-Birds. They went into service in 1954 when the first line opened and were retired in August, 1991. Yes, the cars were all red. Completely red, with the exeption of a thin, gold line laterally traversing each side of the car at mid height, and a gold "TTC" logo beside each set of doors. The gold was more a yellow gold, and like i said, the stripe was very, very thin, and the TTC logo used very thin lines as well. (It accentuated the cars very well). The cars looked rather modern, and were well cowled so head/tail lights did not stick out (unlike most cars I've seen built during that time). The cars had three sets of bi-parting sliding doors, 3 on each side for a total of 6 per car. The front resembled later ttc subway car fronts, with one observation window, an end door with a narrower window, and a window on the operators cab, the same size as the observation window. The cars looked bright red in daylight, but in the darkened tubes looked burgundy, very royal and impressive. The windows used either (can not remember) drop sash or sliding sash openings. The point is, the red cars gave the system a lot of personality, were nice to look at, and very nostalgic in their later years. I am going to write a letter to the ttc recommending that, by 2004, a "nostalgia T-1" (hopefully number 5000, which was the number of the first red G-train) be painted in that original red colour scheme. If anyone agrees (ie Bingo) write to the ttc too, th emore letters we can get in, the harder our point will be driven across. BTW, the last time I ever saw a G-Train was in Dundas Station, I was going north and it was going south
        

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        • Subject: Re: TTC Small Witt RT-10/anti silver car message
        • Message Number: 755922
        • Posted by: Bingo
        • Date: Sat Jun 21 13:52:50 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: TTC Small Witt RT-10/anti silver car message posted by Nathan on June 20, 1997 at 20:35:28: Yes, the G cars were very advanced for their time. They were among the first cars to be shipped with plastic bench seats, and not the wicker ones that dominated the older New York cars. The interior was lit by round lights that went totally down the entire length of the car, one next to another, and were accompanied on the ceiling by those swing away handles. The exterior of the trains bore the TTC's old logo (just the letter TTC written on top of each other) and the operator's cab was on the left side, not the right. When I was a kid, a motorman let me drive the train and honk the horn a few times. I guess I had a pretty good childhood (definitely not!)
          

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Thread title: Montreal Subway (755887)
Started on Fri Jun 20 17:26:18 1997, by Nathan

---

• Subject: Montreal Subway
• Message Number: 755887
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Fri Jun 20 17:26:18 1997
  
  Ok, I basically know nothing about the montreal subway, except that the rubber tired vehicals were built by bombardier. ANyway, i hear that the system is finally showing it's age, with leaks and other mechanical problems popping up all over the place. Is this true? Is there any planned subway expansion in the near future? Has anyone planned on throwing the Bloc-heads infront of a moving train? What is the daily ridership on this system?
  

  ---

  • Subject: Montreal Subway
  • Message Number: 755889
  • Posted by: Nathan
  • Date: Fri Jun 20 17:33:33 1997
    
    Ok, I basically know nothing about the montreal subway, except that the rubber tired vehicals were built by bombardier. ANyway, i hear that the system is finally showing it's age, with leaks and other mechanical problems popping up all over the place. Is this true? Is there any planned subway expansion in the near future? Has anyone planned on throwing the Bloc-heads infront of a moving train? What is the daily ridership on this system?
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: Montreal Subway
    • Message Number: 755897
    • Posted by: ~airplane
    • Date: Fri Jun 20 20:44:03 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Montreal Subway posted by Nathan on June 20, 1997 at 17:33:33: Speaking of rubber tired vehicles, has anyone heard any details on this new plan to run a high speed train to the Hamptons using rubber wheels?
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: Montreal Subway
      • Message Number: 755898
      • Posted by: Jim
      • Date: Fri Jun 20 21:05:50 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Montreal Subway posted by ~airplane on June 20, 1997 at 20:44:03: If you are talking about the Hamptons on Long Island, those rubber tired high speed vehicles are called jitneys.
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: Montreal Subway
        • Message Number: 755953
        • Posted by: Steve
        • Date: Sat Jun 21 22:21:48 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: Montreal Subway posted by Bingo on June 21, 1997 at 14:17:10: I was more impressed with the train which ran at the "Man & His World" Exhibition. I was on it several times in the early 80s. Is it still running and better yet, does anyone have any scanned pictures?
          

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Thread title: Los Angeles (*gasp*) Red line Subway (755888)
Started on Fri Jun 20 17:31:44 1997, by Nathan

---

• Subject: Los Angeles (*gasp*) Red line Subway
• Message Number: 755888
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Fri Jun 20 17:31:44 1997
  
  Ok, I heard from a certain source that the LA Red Line is only carrying 30'000 people per day. Is this true? Does this mean that I can OFFICIALLY rate the Los Angeles subway as THE shittiest subway line around? Is ridership that appallingly low? God, in Toronto their expecting a 4 mile stub line (heavy rail subway) to attract over 100 000 people per day, but that damn "stub" is badly needed so I can see ridership being higher than that. I know of quite a few light rail lines where each single line carries about 4 times the patronage seen on the red line. Oh dear
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: Los Angeles (*gasp*) Red line Subway
  • Message Number: 755902
  • Posted by: Steve
  • Date: Fri Jun 20 21:36:50 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Los Angeles (*gasp*) Red line Subway posted by Nathan on June 20, 1997 at 17:31:44: Perhaps you have it backwards. When conceived, the LA Subway was predicted to carry less than 1% of LAs population. Is it the fault of the system or the reluctance of the inhabitants to give up their cars. Keep in mind that LAs growth was due primarily to the growth & expansion of the electric railways which preceeded it. However, the electric railways soon went bankrupt as the auto's popularity surged in the late 20s.
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: Los Angeles (*gasp*) Red line Subway
    • Message Number: 755904
    • Posted by: Nathan
    • Date: Fri Jun 20 21:47:07 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Los Angeles (*gasp*) Red line Subway posted by Steve on June 20, 1997 at 21:36:50: Yes, i know the all-too-familiar story of the great interurban giants, Pacific Electric ("big red"), the radials found on the east coast, and my personal pet, the bc electric rlwy. And yes, it is the fault of the system. Not the technology, but the way it was planned. LA has a very low population density (especially when compared to Manhattan) and is decentralized. Many Los Angelinos work in the sprawling suburbs, to which rail travel is not suited.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: Los Angeles (*gasp*) Red line Subway
      • Message Number: 755906
      • Posted by: John
      • Date: Fri Jun 20 22:45:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Los Angeles (*gasp*) Red line Subway posted by Nathan on June 20, 1997 at 21:47:07: Los Angelinos? That sounds more like a Greek name rather than the term for a citizen of Los Angeles. Isn't the correct term 'Los Angelin'?
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: Los Angeles (*gasp*) Red line Subway
        • Message Number: 755911
        • Posted by: Nathan
        • Date: Sat Jun 21 00:50:51 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: Los Angeles (*gasp*) Red line Subway posted by John on June 20, 1997 at 22:45:16: Nope!! Los Angelinos is it...
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: Los Angeles (*gasp*) Red line Subway
          • Message Number: 755917
          • Posted by: Bingo
          • Date: Sat Jun 21 13:20:22 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Los Angeles (*gasp*) Red line Subway posted by Nathan on June 20, 1997 at 17:31:44: Sort of like that episode of the Simpsons when Springfield is conned into getting a monorail system, isn't it? The Sheppard line, in my opinion, is a waste of money. What we need right now is a connection with the airport!
            

            ---

            • Subject: Re: Los Angeles (*gasp*) Red line Subway
            • Message Number: 755923
            • Posted by: Bryan Layne
            • Date: Sat Jun 21 13:56:16 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: Los Angeles (*gasp*) Red line Subway posted by Steve on June 20, 1997 at 21:36:50: Ya,and not only that ,you have to remember that LA is laid out much diferently than NYC or Chicago.LA is like a big suburb,with little dense apartment housing like in NYC or Chicago,therefore commuting patterns will be different.Ex:A person living 30 blocks from downtown in LA,is going to take the bus for a one way trip straight to Downtown.NOT take a bus 10 blocks to the closest Red Line station,transfer,and then go Downtown.Sense in NYC,Boston,Chicago....housing,shopping,everything is much closer together,less dependant on the automobile,this is not LA.LA was built around the automobile,having no intention of a subway.And remember NYC,Chicago,Boston were built before the age of the automobile,this is why public transit is much more succesfull in these cities for two reasons 1)cars are a pain in dense areas with high traffic 2)public transportation is easier to get around with.This is why LA is having ridership troubles with its subway,this is only expected and I believe will take some time before there are any major ridership growths.
              

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Thread title: MLW's still in service??? Re: Transit in Movies - Again (755895)
Started on Fri Jun 20 20:18:52 1997, by Nathan

---

• Subject: MLW's still in service??? Re: Transit in Movies - Again
• Message Number: 755895
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Fri Jun 20 20:18:52 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Transit in Movies - Again posted by Bingo on June 20, 1997 at 17:25:22: How many MLW's (M-series) are still in service? I heard the BD, right? I miss the whistle!! The MLW's have 4 doors, right?
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: MLW's still in service??? Re: Transit in Movies - Again
  • Message Number: 755918
  • Posted by: Bingo
  • Date: Sat Jun 21 13:24:33 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]MLW's still in service??? Re: Transit in Movies - Again posted by Nathan on June 20, 1997 at 20:18:52: 1)8 2)Yes 3)Yes, contrary to the Gloucesters (3) p.s please leave your e-mail address so that we may send you a picture of RT-38 and 39! I don't have a web page service and I certainly would like to send you pictures of the silver G's.
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: MLW's still in service??? Re: Transit in Movies - Again
    • Message Number: 755929
    • Posted by: Nathan
    • Date: Sat Jun 21 15:45:54 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: MLW's still in service??? Re: Transit in Movies - Again posted by Bingo on June 21, 1997 at 13:24:33: Yeah, follow the hypertext link to my email address! Last nite I went to a ttc site which said that all 36 M-series cars are still on property and serviceable; is this correct?
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: MLW's still in service??? Re: Transit in Movies - Again
      • Message Number: 755992
      • Posted by: FREE WEBPAGE SERVICES (Sorry, No E-mail was left)
      • Date: Sat Jun 28 17:55:52 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: MLW's still in service??? Re: Transit in Movies - Again posted by Bingo on June 21, 1997 at 13:24:33: I'm really really sorry but there are 2 free webpage services I am aware of: * Geocities [7]www.geocities.com * Angelfire [8]www.angelfire.com Geocities DOES NOT give me benefits for referrals.
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: MLW's still in service??? Re: Transit in Movies - Again
        • Message Number: 756075
        • Posted by: Josh Caesar
        • Date: Wed Jun 25 11:11:11 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: MLW's still in service??? Re: Transit in Movies - Again posted by FREE WEBPAGE SERVICES (Sorry, No E-mail was left) on June 23, 1997 at 13:11:23: Geocities www.geocities.com Angelfire www.angelfire.com Geocities DOES NOT give me benefits for referrals.> A third service is Tripod, located at http://www.tripod.com. JC
          

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Thread title: Re: New R-142's and 143's (and Bingo's T-1's) (755912)
Started on Sat Jun 21 01:02:32 1997, by Nathan

---

• Subject: Re: New R-142's and 143's (and Bingo's T-1's)
• Message Number: 755912
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Sat Jun 21 01:02:32 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: New R-142's and 143's posted by Bingo on June 20, 1997 at 16:36:49: Isn't Bombardier manufacturing half the order, with Kawasaki doing the other half? Does Siemens show any interest in Heavy Rail, or does it wish to stick with Light Rail? Hmmm, hansome sum for the T-1's, eh? Well, at least you don't have to pay 2 million dollars for one 4 door car!! Good god! Bombardier must have gotten rich off the BC Taxpayer, you try (in the 1980's) to pay for an ART (advanced rapid transit) vehicle!! Of course it is paying off, now Kuala Lumpur is throwing out the $$$ on ART vehicles, and so Bombardier get's a hefty sum, but so does the EVIL BC gov, bc transit is helping implement the system. Why? Because the 2 other operators (detroit and it's EVIL people mover and the Scarberia RT) that were brave enough to put money into an unproven technology didn't do Jack shit to improve the technology, I was on the Scarberia RT last summer and it was basically "whiiiiiiiiiiiiIIIIIIIIINNE-whiiiiiIIIIIIIIINE, whiiiiiIIIIIINE Screech! Screech! Kathunk-Kathunk-kathunk *ssss, Midland's Next ssss* WHIIIIiiiiiiiinnnne". Good god, must have gone deaf. I swear the Linear Induction Motors were dragging on the reaction rail... Oh well, I may seem to be dwelling on pathetic gold plated small town transit systems but I'm doing a thesis on it over the summer... *sigh*
  

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Thread title: Breda Cars (755913)
Started on Sat Jun 21 01:06:46 1997, by Nathan

---

• Subject: Breda Cars
• Message Number: 755913
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Sat Jun 21 01:06:46 1997
  
  Ok, I'm letting my feelings fly. BREDA CARS SUCK!!!!!! Good God! Have you seen the new SF Muni cars? The doors are sooooo small, their sinister looking, and even worse are the LA MetroRail Cars! ICK!! I HATE BREDA!!! BOMBARDIER ALL THE WAY!!! ()
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: Breda Cars
  • Message Number: 755920
  • Posted by: Bryan Layne
  • Date: Sat Jun 21 13:40:20 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Breda Cars posted by Nathan on June 21, 1997 at 01:06:46: I agree!!! I'd rather see the old red n orange Boeings running in SF any day.The Breda cars are not only inadequate,theyre ugly,those slanted sides and stainless steel sides are just not San Fran.I do on the other side like the Red Line cars for LA.There not really special in anyway,and are quite contemperary,much like LA.But I dont disagree with LA for getting all stainless steel cars,LA has a graffiti problem and I'm sure there are a lot of writers that would like to see the Red line as a new,old New York thing,a big moving target.
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: Breda Cars
    • Message Number: 755933
    • Posted by: Mark Greenwald
    • Date: Sat Jun 21 15:56:53 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Breda Cars posted by Nathan on June 21, 1997 at 01:06:46: Breda Cars are also the main manufacturer of the cars on the Washington Metro. The original cars came from Rohr but from the opening of the original segment of the Yellow Line in 1981, all of the cars have come from Breda with the breaking systems coming from Pittsburgh. It was always interesting to see a subway car on a flatbed going through the Appalachian Mtns. on I-68 & I-70 on its way to DC. The cars than that don't look that different from the outside, but you see that the seating & the door closing chime is a little different than Rohr. It was also the Breda cars that introduced the "flip-dot" destination signs to DC, Rohr always used a scroll w/ a barcode that the computer would use to know when to stop the scroll at the proper destination. IT FAILED MISERABLY!! Although they were nice to look at with the destination showing up w/ the line color in the background. Since then, all the Rohr cars have been retrofitted w/ flip dots. Today, to the best of my knowledge, the Rohr cars are mostly used on the Red Line & the Bredas are used on the Orange, Blue, Yellow & Green Lines.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: Breda Cars
      • Message Number: 755938
      • Posted by: Zack
      • Date: Sat Jun 21 18:00:34 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Breda Cars posted by Nathan on June 21, 1997 at 01:06:46: i have seeen pictues of the beretas they look good and ugly at onc but boston is getting somphting similar. metro got some bereta duel electric/diesel buses and ther lemons but i agree the boeings look better and the boston type 7's gook even better
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: Breda Cars
        • Message Number: 755945
        • Posted by: Nathan
        • Date: Sat Jun 21 20:41:36 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: Breda Cars posted by Mark Greenwald on June 21, 1997 at 15:56:53: Yeah, I still think the Bredas suck though!! I mean, geez. The Washington Metro is hideous to look at. Sure, the cars have carpeting, but the outsides are UUU-GLY!! I mean, Breda has a talent for making ugly cars. I mean, AdTranz cars can look ok (sometimes), Siemens LRV's can look nice, Boeing LRV's, despite shitty engineering, can look ok, but Breda? YEEEECH!! Bombardier cars usually look good (I love the outside of the R-110-B, but the LED destination markers should have been changed to something that can be read from a distance. I mean, make some sharp looking cars (with the exception of the R-62-not ugly, but not pretty either) etc.
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: Breda Cars
          • Message Number: 755948
          • Posted by: Mark Greenwald
          • Date: Sat Jun 21 20:49:41 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: Breda Cars posted by Nathan on June 21, 1997 at 20:41:36: Yeah right, DC's cars are a bit drab---Although you want to know who has ugly, boring, and just down right lacking in any imagination are the Baltimore Metro cars. They're not made by Breda though---they're made by Transit-america (Budd).---Very plain
            

            ---

            • Subject: Re: Breda Cars
            • Message Number: 755958
            • Posted by: Bryan Layne
            • Date: Sat Jun 21 23:19:08 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: Breda Cars posted by Zack on June 21, 1997 at 18:00:34: ya you r talking about Seattle Metro's dual power buses.Those are the hittiest busses seen.If i was in charge of the design of Breda vehicles I would at least make an effort to make them suitable aestetically to us transit fans!!!!!
              

              ---

              • Subject: Re: Breda Cars
              • Message Number: 755971
              • Posted by: Steve
              • Date: Sun Jun 22 11:09:17 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]Re: Breda Cars posted by Mark Greenwald on June 21, 1997 at 20:49:41: Buffalo, Portland, StLouis and Pittsburgh, except for the paint, you couldn't tell which you were looking at. Perhaps boring and lacking in imagination but for a cash-strapped municipality, buying transit vehicles 'off the shelf' can save much $$$. It may not please the rail fans but the majority of taxpayers are not buffs. Just a personal note: The Baltimore cars may indeed last 50 years. Many of the NYCT cars ran 40 or more years and the R-9s could still be running today. The point should be, WHY? Rail fans not withstanding, new equipment draws new riders. When any rail system starts showing it's age, riders (the daily commuter) opt for alternatives. I'd love an opportunity to ride the MP54s or even the MP41s but the majority of the commuters find that even the M-1s and M-3s are starting to show their age, and they are the ones paying the tab (well 48% of it).
                

                ---

                • Subject: Re: Breda Cars
                • Message Number: 755979
                • Posted by: Nathan
                • Date: Mon Jun 23 01:02:25 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [5]Re: Breda Cars posted by Steve on June 22, 1997 at 11:09:17: What the hell are you talking about? Portland's LRV's are made by Bombardier and Siemens, St Louis' are made by Kawasaki, NOT BREDA!
                  

                  ---

                  • Subject: Re: Breda Cars
                  • Message Number: 756010
                  • Posted by: Steve
                  • Date: Mon Jun 23 21:21:13 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [5]Re: Breda Cars posted by Nathan on June 23, 1997 at 01:02:25: Perhaps your lack of command of the language limits your comprehension. My point was not who built the cars.The builder is irrelevant. My pointt was that regardless of who built the cars, they all looked similar and that this was directly related to cost. Look back at your history. Every PCC unit, regardless of who built it and when it was built, looked just like every other PCC unit. This was not an accident. It was a concious decission. All of the LRV units being produced, regardless of Mfgr. look more similar than different because this is a universally accepted design and a purchaser is more likely to buy it "Off the shelf" because it can be produced more economically. Something a cash strapped municipality must consider.
                    

                    ---

                    • Subject: Re: Breda Cars
                    • Message Number: 756015
                    • Posted by: Nathan
                    • Date: Tue Jun 24 01:26:42 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [5]Re: Breda Cars posted by Steve on June 23, 1997 at 21:21:13: No! I live near Portland (somewhat), Portland's LRT's look NOTHING like those in use in St Louis. Portland's old lrv's have curb level entrances, with steps to the high floors. St Louis uses high floor LRV's with high level platform boarding. Portland's new LRV's are low floor and look nothing like St Louis' cars. Perhaps you lack good knowledge of LRV/Streetcar history. The PCC (President's Conference Commitee car, if you are as ignorant as I like to think) was a last ditch effort to save the streetcar. The Electric Railway President's Conference Commitee (who the cars were named after), comprising of the presidents of various streetcar operators, met to develop a revolutionary new car that would effectively compete with the automobile. The commitee had designed a fast, streamlined car and the design was taken by the various streetcar operators, and sent out to different manufacturors, where the cars were built and, in some cases, customized for a specific operator. The point being is that the PCC was ONE design! One design, the car was NOT designed by any manufacturor, but through the collaborated efforts of many streetcar operators. The design was THEN sent out to whatever company would build the cars for the least money. If the PCC was designed by, say Budd, that trademark design would only be found on Budd cars, and other companies would have built different looking cars. Does any other city operate R-62's?
                      

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Thread title: Subtalk via NNTP? (755666)
Started on Sat Jun 21 13:10:46 1997, by David Pirmann - Web Site Host

---

• Subject: Subtalk via NNTP?
• Message Number: 755666
• Posted by: David Pirmann - Web Site Host
• Date: Sat Jun 21 13:10:46 1997
  
  Hello, Is there any interest in having SubTalk run as an NNTP newsgroup? I could set up a local server and you all could just point your web browser's news reader at it. It would maintain threads a little better and your browser would take care of the "archiving" of posts you've already read. Ideas? Thoughts? --Dave
  

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  • Subject: Re: Subtalk via NNTP?
  • Message Number: 755674
  • Posted by: BRYAN Layne
  • Date: Fri Jun 13 18:47:17 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Subtalk via NNTP? posted by David Pirmann - Web Site Host on June 13, 1997 at 15:32:46: I kinda like this personally.
    

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    • Subject: Re: Subtalk via NNTP?
    • Message Number: 755676
    • Posted by: Mark Greenwald
    • Date: Fri Jun 13 20:40:33 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: Subtalk via NNTP? posted by BRYAN Layne on June 13, 1997 at 18:47:17: I agree with Bryan-------This has a more local flavor to it---Keeps it a little more personal--PLUS--If you have it on NN, what would be the incentive for people to venture into the other parts of the site?
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: Subtalk via NNTP?
      • Message Number: 755682
      • Posted by: David Pirmann
      • Date: Fri Jun 13 23:11:36 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subtalk via NNTP? posted by Mark Greenwald on June 13, 1997 at 20:40:33: There are a few benefits that i see... 1. The record of what you've seen is managed by your newsreader (tin, netscape, etc.), so the list of articles when you call it up just shows you what's new. 2. Threads will be preserved in old articles. 3. The existing archived posts can be injected into nntp such that they are maintained in thread order if your newsreader supports threads (most do nowadays). The articles wouldn't be distributed to the Usenet-at-large, but you'd use the same software to access them. --Dave
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: Subtalk via NNTP?
        • Message Number: 755737
        • Posted by: David Pirmann - Web Site Host
        • Date: Sat Jun 21 13:11:50 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Subtalk via NNTP? posted by David Pirmann - Web Site Host on June 13, 1997 at 15:32:46: Please point your browser to [7]news://nycsubway.org/subtalk to see the NNTP version of the archives. Let me know if there's problems. P.s. Don't post there yet... continue to post via the web.
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: Subtalk via NNTP?
          • Message Number: 755742
          • Posted by: Julio Perez
          • Date: Tue Jun 17 07:31:22 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Subtalk via NNTP? posted by David Pirmann - Web Site Host on June 13, 1997 at 15:32:46: David, your idea is pretty good, provided that all of us have access to newsgroup service via our browsers. The medium I am using to access the Internet does not have a news server set up so I can check on my favorite newsgroups, and they have not established a timeframe for availability. If SubTalk could remain available for a while as it exists today, that would be great.
            

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            • Subject: Re: Subtalk via NNTP?
            • Message Number: 755747
            • Posted by: David Pirmann
            • Date: Tue Jun 17 10:09:44 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: Subtalk via NNTP? posted by Julio Perez on June 17, 1997 at 07:31:22: Your provider doesn't need to run a news server for you to access SubTalk via nntp. In fact, it doesn't matter if he does or not-- his server will not have the SubTalk articles on them anyway! That's one of the benefits-- browsers can access nntp servers anywhere on the Net. You simply point your browser to our news server. In Netscape (and presumably in IE) you simply go to URL [7]news://nycsubway.org/subtalk. I think current versions of Lynx support newsreading also. If you have a UNIX account you can use the popular Tin newsreader by first setting an environment variable as follows. If you use C-Shell (or tcsh): setenv NNTPSERVER nycsubway.org If you use sh/ksh/bash, NNTPSERVER=nycsubway.org; export NNTPSERVER Then invoke tin as "tin -r subtalk". I'm sure other newsreaders work in a similar manner (using the NNTPSERVER variable). --Dave
              

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              • Subject: Re: Subtalk via NNTP?
              • Message Number: 755749
              • Posted by: Mark Greenwald
              • Date: Tue Jun 17 10:41:34 1997
                
                In Reply to: [6]Re: Subtalk via NNTP? posted by David Pirmann - Web Site Host on June 16, 1997 at 22:05:07: What I saw worked well---kinda like reading e-mail. Is the entire history of subtalk in there? If it is--I couldn't find it--If it isn't, good, that means I'm not screwing up.
                

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                • Subject: Re: Subtalk via NNTP?
                • Message Number: 755752
                • Posted by: David Pirmann
                • Date: Tue Jun 17 13:20:45 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [6]Re: Subtalk via NNTP? posted by Mark Greenwald on June 17, 1997 at 10:41:34: That's about 60% of the total articles ever posted. So far there have been about 1,950 articles posted and about 1,000 are in the NNTP archive so far. --Dave
                  

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Thread title: Re: So why's B.C so rich?(Was: you know, I really don't care anymore.) (755924)
Started on Sat Jun 21 13:58:49 1997, by Bingo

---

• Subject: Re: So why's B.C so rich?(Was: you know, I really don't care anymore.)
• Message Number: 755924
• Posted by: Bingo
• Date: Sat Jun 21 13:58:49 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: New R-142's and 143's (and Bingo's T-1's) posted by Nathan on June 21, 1997 at 01:02:32: So why is B.C. so rich? I read this story about a fleet of new buses that were bought for the city of Victoria, except that they ordered them too wide for the mountainside road! What do they do? Send them back? Hell no! They REDO THE MOUNTAINFACE so the buses will fit!
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: So why's B.C so rich?(Was: you know, I really don't care anymore.)
  • Message Number: 755932
  • Posted by: Nathan
  • Date: Sat Jun 21 15:53:12 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: So why's B.C so rich?(Was: you know, I really don't care anymore.) posted by Bingo on June 21, 1997 at 13:58:49: Why is it so rich? because Mike Harris isn't in charge! No, kidding. No, the mountainside was not redone for the buses, it was the new island highway (which has only gone, well, too far overbudget to remember), which includes a reserved median for future light rail, after the next ten years. Second of all, the government likes to waste money on advertising; bombard the public with advertisements. That's why bc transit ridership was up 10% last year, it is a more competitive organization than the ttc. Finally, because, unlike portland, speed and efficiency of the service take a high priority. Last, no one lives in BC so therefore capital expenditures are not that large (did I mention the 3 light rail lines that vancouver is supposed to be getting?)
    

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    • Subject: Re: So why's B.C so rich?(Was: you know, I really don't care anymore.)
    • Message Number: 755995
    • Posted by: Bingo
    • Date: Mon Jun 23 15:04:47 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: So why's B.C so rich?(Was: you know, I really don't care anymore.) posted by Nathan on June 21, 1997 at 15:53:12: The TTC just runs really retarded ads, that's all. They can barely fill up the billboards in each station, and the company that runs the transit advertising on behalf of the TTC, TransAD, is filling up these empty spots with ads for TransAD. If you ask me, advertisers advertising advertisements is a really redundant and stupid idea. I do like the Calvin Klein ads for the bras and underwear, though. That girl is hot! BTW, what is portland? Are you referring to portland, OR? I thought so.
      

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      • Subject: Re: So why's B.C so rich?(Was: you know, I really don't care anymore.)
      • Message Number: 756002
      • Posted by: Nathan
      • Date: Mon Jun 23 18:10:50 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: So why's B.C so rich?(Was: you know, I really don't care anymore.) posted by Bingo on June 23, 1997 at 15:04:47: Yeah, Portland OR. Ok, is the TTC having problems filling up advertising space? Man, at least you don't have to deal with excessive transit advertising!! God, why watch tv! You walk into any SkyTrain station, then get on the train, then the bus, you will be absolutely bombarded with Nike Ads, Airmiles ads, Starbucks ads, Lipsorex ads, condom (!) ads, (and some of them are pretty obsene too) you get the picture. Basically, rapid transit vehicles have turned into roving billboards! On the OUTSIDE of articulated buses you can see up to 4 mini billboards!
        

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        • Subject: Re: So why's B.C so rich?(Was: you know, I really don't care anymore.)
        • Message Number: 756004
        • Posted by: Bingo
        • Date: Mon Jun 23 18:18:12 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: So why's B.C so rich?(Was: you know, I really don't care anymore.) posted by Nathan on June 23, 1997 at 18:10:50: You know what? The old red G-cars had advertisements on the side of them too! Once they had this whole train where there was this really big Oh Henry! bar on the side!
          

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          • Subject: Re: So why's B.C so rich?(Was: you know, I really don't care anymore.)
          • Message Number: 756016
          • Posted by: Nathan
          • Date: Tue Jun 24 01:28:40 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: So why's B.C so rich?(Was: you know, I really don't care anymore.) posted by Bingo on June 23, 1997 at 18:18:12: I remember the Oh Henry train too!
            

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            • Subject: Re: So why's B.C so rich?(Was: you know, I really don't care anymore.)
            • Message Number: 756025
            • Posted by: Bingo
            • Date: Tue Jun 24 15:27:52 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: So why's B.C so rich?(Was: you know, I really don't care anymore.) posted by Nathan on June 24, 1997 at 01:28:40: Cool!
              

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Thread title: Subway/Elevated scenes in movies (755926)
Started on Sat Jun 21 14:25:06 1997, by Timothy

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• Subject: Subway/Elevated scenes in movies
• Message Number: 755926
• Posted by: Timothy
• Date: Sat Jun 21 14:25:06 1997
  
  Is anyone familiar with the movie "Streets Of Fire", which came out sometime during the early or mid 1980's? I've seen this movie many times, and I've noticed that it includes lots of subway/elevated footage (mostly elevated). I'm assuming that the El scenes were filmed in Chicago, because they showed the old "PCC" style trains that used to run on Chicago's Els. Can anyone tell me what part of Chicago where this movie was most likely filmed? Also, Can anyone tell me what other movies include a lot of subway/ elevated scenes, whether it be New York City, Chicago, Philadelphia, or Boston (the only cities I know of with Els)?
  

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  • Subject: Re: Subway/Elevated scenes in movies
  • Message Number: 755927
  • Posted by: Dave
  • Date: Sat Jun 21 14:47:56 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Subway/Elevated scenes in movies posted by Timothy on June 21, 1997 at 14:25:06: There was a looong thread a few months ago on movies containing scenese of subways/els. You might want to check the historic files for the thread.
    

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    • Subject: Re: Subway/Elevated scenes in movies
    • Message Number: 755931
    • Posted by: Mark Greenwald
    • Date: Sat Jun 21 15:48:57 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Subway/Elevated scenes in movies posted by Timothy on June 21, 1997 at 14:25:06: The film "Streets of Fire" was filmed in a "back lot". The entire place was nothing more than a "set", to the point that the rain was fake and the wet streets were made that way on purpose. Other than that, I love the movie, I own it & the soundtrack. Many years ago I was a manager of a video store & when this came out there was also a video soundtrack for the movie that showed the making of it.
      

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      • Subject: Re: Subway/Elevated scenes in movies
      • Message Number: 755939
      • Posted by: Timothy
      • Date: Sat Jun 21 19:10:14 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway/Elevated scenes in movies posted by Mark Greenwald on June 21, 1997 at 15:48:57: You say that "Streets of Fire" was a "set" filmed in a "back lot". Does that mean that none of the elevated structure, or trains seen in the movie are real? Was every second of the movie a "set", or were there a few scenes that were shot on an actual city street? Many of the scenes throughout the movie seemed so realistic, especially when a train passes on the elevated structure. Also, there were even a few scenes on board a train, and it also showed a front window view of the train approaching a subway station.
        

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        • Subject: Re: Subway/Elevated scenes in movies
        • Message Number: 755940
        • Posted by: Timothy
        • Date: Sat Jun 21 19:14:33 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway/Elevated scenes in movies posted by Dave on June 21, 1997 at 14:47:56: Is there anyway you can tell me the titles of some of those movies, and give me a brief description of what they are about?
          

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          • Subject: Re: Subway/Elevated scenes in movies
          • Message Number: 755941
          • Posted by: Timothy
          • Date: Sat Jun 21 19:27:32 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway/Elevated scenes in movies posted by Mark Greenwald on June 21, 1997 at 15:48:57: Do you know of other movies that are comparable to "Streets of Fire", that include subway/elevated scenes, as well as a "hard rock" soundtrack? Just like you, I love "Streets of Fire", and I also own the video and soundtrack!! I'm looking for other movies with the same type of action, scenes, and music as "Streets of Fire". I have a feeling that there must be others out there. If you know of any, please let me know the titles. Thanks.
            

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            • Subject: Re: Subway/Elevated scenes in movies
            • Message Number: 755944
            • Posted by: Nathan
            • Date: Sat Jun 21 20:35:29 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: Subway/Elevated scenes in movies posted by Timothy on June 21, 1997 at 19:14:33: The movie, "It can happen to you" has a few el scenes in it. It is a kind of "feel happy" movie, but it has some good el shots.
              

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              • Subject: Re: Subway/Elevated scenes in movies
              • Message Number: 755946
              • Posted by: Mark Greenwald
              • Date: Sat Jun 21 20:44:02 1997
                
                In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway/Elevated scenes in movies posted by Timothy on June 21, 1997 at 19:10:14: Obviously, the scenes on a train & those showing a train are real---where? I don't know---Maybe someone out there knows--BUT--those scenes on the street below where you see the 'el support beams---BACK LOT---As far as other movies that would fall under the same genre--I'll get back to you on that one.
                

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                • Subject: Re: Subway/Elevated scenes in movies
                • Message Number: 755947
                • Posted by: Mark Greenwald
                • Date: Sat Jun 21 20:45:15 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway/Elevated scenes in movies posted by Nathan on June 21, 1997 at 20:35:29: I've always been partial to "The Warriors"
                  

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                  • Subject: Re: Subway/Elevated scenes in movies
                  • Message Number: 755951
                  • Posted by: Steve
                  • Date: Sat Jun 21 22:04:22 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [5]Re: Subway/Elevated scenes in movies posted by Timothy on June 21, 1997 at 19:14:33: I caught the end of the original movie "THe Naked City". There are some very interesting shots of trains passing over the Williamsburg Bridge. Nighthawks has shots of one of the Bronx Els, I think it's the #4 line and also shots in the 63rd Street tunnel while it was still under construction. Theres also one scene withthe R-9 museum train.
                    

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Thread title: Shepperd/Eglinton subway, was Re: Los Angeles (*gasp*) Red line Subway (755928)
Started on Sat Jun 21 15:42:41 1997, by Nathan

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• Subject: Shepperd/Eglinton subway, was Re: Los Angeles (*gasp*) Red line Subway
• Message Number: 755928
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Sat Jun 21 15:42:41 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Los Angeles (*gasp*) Red line Subway posted by Bingo on June 21, 1997 at 13:20:22: Yeah, I think they should have continued construction of the Eglinton West, except extend it to the airport. In any case, Missisauga has been waiting ages for rapid transit and they badly need it, not enough is being done out there.
  

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Thread title: Re: Coffee Bars and Bullet nosed Lada's/STARBUCKS FOREVER!!!! (755936)
Started on Sat Jun 21 16:02:31 1997, by Nathan

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• Subject: Re: Coffee Bars and Bullet nosed Lada's/STARBUCKS FOREVER!!!!
• Message Number: 755936
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Sat Jun 21 16:02:31 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Coffee Bars and Bullet nosed Lada's (Was, um... I forget) posted by Bingo on June 21, 1997 at 13:41:27: Ok, it might be my West Coast bias, but Starbucks rules! I can not even find a second cup location in the vancouver area, yet in the new vancouver airport terminal (which gouges you a 10$ airport improvement fee) there is about 10 Starbucks Outlets! on one intersection there is a starbucks on each corner!! Damn it though, WCE's coffee stalls aren't operated by starbucks. Darn!! Oh well. If anything, what they need is coffee stalls at park-n-rides...
  

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Thread title: Interesting Subway Signal (755942)
Started on Sat Jun 21 20:16:53 1997, by lOU

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• Subject: Interesting Subway Signal
• Message Number: 755942
• Posted by: lOU
• Date: Sat Jun 21 20:16:53 1997
  
  This Signal is looking southbound on the Northbound express track at Kings Highway. Does anyone know what signal indication would be given for a train to cross to the Southbound local track?? G=Green Y=Yellow R=Red ?=sometype of light (Call Light??) G Y R A4 628 ? ? G Y R X 522 ?
  

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  • Subject: Re: Interesting Subway Signal
  • Message Number: 755950
  • Posted by: Steve
  • Date: Sat Jun 21 21:58:22 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Interesting Subway Signal posted by lOU on June 21, 1997 at 20:16:53: What you are describing is a standard 'home signal'. The top set of lights indicates the condition of the tracks ahead. A4 628 indicates the north-bound express track on the 8th Avenue line, signal #628. The question marks would likely indicate either a grade or diverging route timer. The next set of lights would indicate the route which is set - either normal or diverging. X 522 would indicate that the signal is actually a home signal controlled by lever #522 (although I can't recall ever seeing a number that high) The bottom question mark would be a 'call on' signal which is displayed when the train operator is to pass a stop signal (Red/Red) . Where was this signal???
    

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    • Subject: Re: Interesting Subway Signal
    • Message Number: 756037
    • Posted by: John of Calgary
    • Date: Tue Jun 24 19:15:27 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Interesting Subway Signal posted by Steve on June 21, 1997 at 21:58:22: Yeah! Where is the signal? Which line? D/Q? F? or the N? Like, tell him, man!
      

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      • Subject: Re: Interesting Subway Signal
      • Message Number: 756038
      • Posted by: John of Calgary
      • Date: Tue Jun 24 19:15:46 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Interesting Subway Signal posted by Steve on June 21, 1997 at 21:58:22: Yeah! Where is the signal? Which line? D/Q? F? or the N? Like, tell him, man!
        

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Thread title: Chicago Els (755949)
Started on Sat Jun 21 20:51:50 1997, by Nathan

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• Subject: Chicago Els
• Message Number: 755949
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Sat Jun 21 20:51:50 1997
  
  What was the type of car used on the els (that I haven't seen since the eighties) that was green and white, with bi-fold doors? They were pretty old, and sometimes they would operate in only 1 car consists. Does anyone know the type/name, how many are left in service or when they were retired?
  

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  • Subject: Re: Chicago Els
  • Message Number: 755957
  • Posted by: Bryan Layne
  • Date: Sat Jun 21 23:12:07 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Chicago Els posted by Nathan on June 21, 1997 at 20:51:50: Those were the 6000 series and 1-50 series cars.The 6000 series cars were built by St.Louis Car Co. and were of married pair consists.The 1-50 were scratch built cars,built using components of recently retired PCC cars(many call them the only true PCC rapid transit car.I posted a message a while back about a fantrip with these cars on April 17th)and were single units,which enabled them to run in one car trains,this is what your talking about.The 6000 and 1-50 series cars no longer run(retired when the last of the 3200 series cars arived)and last ran in Spring/Early Summer 1996.
    

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    • Subject: Re: Chicago Els
    • Message Number: 755959
    • Posted by: John
    • Date: Sat Jun 21 23:37:16 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Chicago Els posted by Bryan Layne on June 21, 1997 at 23:12:07: Were they still around in July? Because I was in Chicago for the Independence Day weekend, 1996, and I had flown in to O'Hare Airport and I took the train (I think it was the Blue Line) to the Loop and the train I was on passed some trains that resemble the ones mentioned above.
      

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      • Subject: Re: Chicago Els
      • Message Number: 755968
      • Posted by: Dave
      • Date: Sun Jun 22 06:07:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Chicago Els posted by John on June 21, 1997 at 23:37:16: The Illinios Railway Museum in Union, Ill. (about an hour west of Chicago) ha sthe largest extant collection of former Chicago streetcars and elevated (loop) cars (inlcuding a former Skokie Swift) in the country. Most are either restored and running or in the process of restoration. The IRM is one of the great railroad museums in the country and well worth a visit from any railfan. For you LIRR buffs, the museum very recently added one for the former Alco FA powerpack untis to their collection, although when restored with prime mover it will be repainted in it's former L&N paint scheme. If you saw the movie "A League of Their Own" with Gina Davis, the early scenes where the girls board a streamliner to head off to the big city for tryouts, was filmed at the museum. The only restored and operational E-6 with complete trainset (including diner but less sleepers)- a former CB&Q trainset - runs on the weekends, along with steam and electric (trolleys, streetcars) cars.
        

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        • Subject: Re: Chicago Els
        • Message Number: 755970
        • Posted by: Bryan Layne
        • Date: Sun Jun 22 10:08:36 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: Chicago Els posted by John on June 21, 1997 at 23:37:16: Ya,you probably saw them,I think there were still a few trains running in Summer '96 due to a number of things(shortages,breakdowns,testing still of 3200 series).
          

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          • Subject: Re: Chicago Els
          • Message Number: 755986
          • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
          • Date: Mon Jun 23 10:47:41 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: Chicago Els posted by Dave on June 22, 1997 at 06:07:11: For those who don't wish to travel as far from the NYC area, Connecticut Trolley Museum has 4 of the 4000 series el cars from Chicage, while Seashore, in Maine, has a pair of 6000s.
            

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            • Subject: Re: Chicago Els
            • Message Number: 755990
            • Posted by: Bryan LAYNE
            • Date: Mon Jun 23 12:26:52 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: Chicago Els posted by Gerry O'Regan on June 23, 1997 at 10:47:41: On the subject,I never could understand why the CTA never has had a transit museum,CTA has a extisive history and definetly should have one.
              

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Thread title: Re: Breda Cars/Baltimore Metro Cars (755961)
Started on Sun Jun 22 00:02:07 1997, by Dan Lawrence

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• Subject: Re: Breda Cars/Baltimore Metro Cars
• Message Number: 755961
• Posted by: Dan Lawrence
• Date: Sun Jun 22 00:02:07 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Breda Cars posted by Mark Greenwald on June 21, 1997 at 20:49:41: They may be plain, and simple. Ugly- NO!!!! Dependable YES!! They will see their 50th birthday in 2030 - and they'll still be running!!!
  

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  • Subject: Re: Breda Cars/Baltimore Metro Cars
  • Message Number: 755965
  • Posted by: Mark Greenwald
  • Date: Sun Jun 22 01:27:17 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Breda Cars/Baltimore Metro Cars posted by Dan Lawrence on June 22, 1997 at 00:02:07: Yeah--they'll see their 50th birthday, it helps having only one line that about 10 miles long
    

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Thread title: Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses (755963)
Started on Sun Jun 22 01:21:05 1997, by Nathan

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• Subject: Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses
• Message Number: 755963
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Sun Jun 22 01:21:05 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Breda Cars posted by Bryan Layne on June 21, 1997 at 23:19:08: Breda makes the Seattle Dual-Powered buses? No wonder, they are pretty ugly too. The thing is, dual powered takes away alot of the advantages the trolley bus has, in trade for being able to de-wire. This may sound wonderful (the idea of flexable trolleys) but an internal combustion engine adds greatly to the weight of the vehical. Trolleys are more suitable to climbing hills than diesels, have faster acceleration, are quieter, and offer a smoother ride, as well as being almost pollution free (this is seen where I live, 93% of the electricity here is provided by hydro electric dams). Yet an I.C. engine weighs down the vehical, reducing efficiency etc. Here (in Vancouver) the trolleys are completely electric, but BC Transit is considering whether or not to go dual mode. Dual mode would be bad because of all the hills/mountains in this area, and having each trolley come with an I.C. engine adds to the cost, especially when the local tax-payer is required to foot the bill for 250 some odd replacement trolleys...
  

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  • Subject: Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses
  • Message Number: 755980
  • Posted by: Zack
  • Date: Mon Jun 23 02:44:22 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses posted by Nathan on June 22, 1997 at 01:21:05: trollys can climb hills but not in snow they WILL not climb hliis in snow probally becouse of their weight. the buses opreate in the tunnel and in electric mode accelrate pretty fast underground.thay are aloso artiluated but thay are lemons and i'm not shure if they can operate above ground on the trolly system or vice versa. P.S metro's trollys ae aging and i wonder if they will replace them with new flyers
    

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    • Subject: Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses
    • Message Number: 755999
    • Posted by: Bingo
    • Date: Mon Jun 23 16:33:46 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses posted by Nathan on June 22, 1997 at 01:21:05: Shit! Vancouver has still has trolley cars? Toronto canceled them all and doomed them to the scrapyard! Now the routes that were formerly electrified are diesel, and you can already notice the dirtier windows and air. What does dual-powered mean? Like having two engines on each end like the Chunnel maintenance buses?
      

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      • Subject: Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses
      • Message Number: 756006
      • Posted by: Zack
      • Date: Mon Jun 23 18:50:43 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses posted by Bingo on June 23, 1997 at 16:33:46: no its a bus powerd by a diesel engine while not in the tunned and powerd by electric motors while in the tunnel.
        

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        • Subject: Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses
        • Message Number: 756013
        • Posted by: Nathan
        • Date: Tue Jun 24 01:10:16 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses posted by Zack on June 23, 1997 at 02:44:22: Ack! No, trolleys usually do NOT operate in a tunnel, here there is 306 route km of trolley wire, all above ground. And no, trolleys ARE lighter than diesels. The only place I know of that operates trolley buses in a tunnel is seattle.
          

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          • Subject: Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses
          • Message Number: 756014
          • Posted by: Nathan
          • Date: Tue Jun 24 01:13:11 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses posted by Bingo on June 23, 1997 at 16:33:46: Dual powered means an electric trolley bus that has a diesel engine as well so the trolley can "de-wire" and operate as a diesel bus. This also adds a large weight penalty making the bus less efficient. 2)Yes, vancouver still has trolley buses and BC Transit has (somewhat) committed to maintaining the trolley fleet. They are looking at some 250 replacement vehicles when the current fleet is retired in 2004 (co-incident with the planned opening of the Lougheed lrt).
            

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            • Subject: Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses
            • Message Number: 756020
            • Posted by: Gary Jacobi
            • Date: Tue Jun 24 14:15:10 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses posted by Nathan on June 22, 1997 at 01:21:05: My daughter recently moved to Seattle, and uses transit almost excluseively. She tells me the Bus-Trolley is a political fix wherein the tunnel downtown was built first, but then nobody could agree on what kind of rail vehicles to use. Nevertheless, she is very high on the system, but you must take into account that she grew up in Phoenix and Sacramento, and never experienced THE NYC Subways!
              

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              • Subject: Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses
              • Message Number: 756027
              • Posted by: Nathan
              • Date: Tue Jun 24 16:10:37 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses posted by Gary Jacobi on June 24, 1997 at 14:15:10: Yeah, Seattle's system is ok, downtown, that is. Of course then again Seattle doesn't have any rail transit (heritage streetcar and monorail not included). The best way to make the best use of a rail transit line is through hub and spoke operation: buses feed people to various parts of the rail line, and the rail line (if well planned) should take them to where they want to go, faster than the automobile. But Seattle is just a bunch of empty spokes....
                

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                • Subject: Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses
                • Message Number: 756028
                • Posted by: Bingo
                • Date: Tue Jun 24 16:27:05 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [5]Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses posted by Zack on June 23, 1997 at 02:44:22: Sorry, but trolley cars are much, much, lighter than anything that requires fossil fuels. Consider this analysis: the fastest trains in the world are powered solely by electricity while the strongest ones are powered by diesel.
                  

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                  • Subject: Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses
                  • Message Number: 756058
                  • Posted by: Zack
                  • Date: Wed Jun 25 01:32:44 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [6]Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses posted by Nathan on June 24, 1997 at 16:10:37: there trying at least to have a spoke
                    

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                    • Subject: Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses
                    • Message Number: 756059
                    • Posted by: Zack
                    • Date: Wed Jun 25 01:33:36 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [6]Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses posted by Nathan on June 24, 1997 at 16:10:37: there trying at least to have a spoke in seattle (i think)with the 6 year plan (and mabey the rta soon)
                      

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                      • Subject: Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses
                      • Message Number: 756062
                      • Posted by: Nathan
                      • Date: Wed Jun 25 02:36:19 1997
                        
                        In Reply to: [6]Re: Breda Cars/Seattle Dual powered buses posted by Zack on June 25, 1997 at 01:33:36: Yes, the current RTA plan includes major transit upgrades, including light rail, commuter rail, and (in my opinion) retarded HOV lanes. Seattle is kinda the odd ball in the pacific northwest: Portland has made major expenditures on light rail, which no one uses, Seattle has an extensive fleet of trolleys, which are somewhat used, and then there is Vancouver (hometown bias) in which trolley buses usually turn away people because they are so fucking full, as well as politically motivated advanced rapid transit lines (which are well used) and commuter rail. Of course, nothing adds up to NYC, what a concept; you can take the subway ANYWHERE you want to go, hmmm, I'm saving my pennies and hopefully I'll be able to get out to NYC sometime, course by the time I get out there the Second Ave Subway would have been built and fully operational...
                        

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Thread title: LIRR (755966)
Started on Sun Jun 22 03:40:31 1997, by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto

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• Subject: LIRR
• Message Number: 755966
• Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
• Date: Sun Jun 22 03:40:31 1997
  
  1. A plea: Does anyone have or know where I can find LIRR track maps???!!! 2. Any reviews/comments/info on content on 2 LIRR books recommended to me: a. Long Island Railroad Memories b. Electric Heritage of the LIRR
  

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  • Subject: Re: LIRR
  • Message Number: 755967
  • Posted by: Dave
  • Date: Sun Jun 22 05:57:55 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]LIRR posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on June 22, 1997 at 03:40:31: You can pick up a track map at any station that has a system timetable. Both of the books yoy mentioned are excellent, BTW. Also consider checking out: 1) The Pennsy Era on Long Island 2) Change at Jamaica 3) Steel Rails to the Sunrise 4) Long Island Railroad 5) Diesels of the Sunrise Trail (great pics!) 6) The Long Island Railroad in Early Photographs 7) Victorian Railroad Station of Long Island
    

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    • Subject: Re: LIRR
    • Message Number: 755969
    • Posted by: Charles
    • Date: Sun Jun 22 08:43:38 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]LIRR posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on June 22, 1997 at 03:40:31: I just wanted to add one more book. Change at Ozone Park is also a very good book with alot of pictures.
      

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      • Subject: LIRR
      • Message Number: 760054
      • Posted by: ____________________________________________________
      • Date: Sat Dec 6 17:33:43 1997
        
        
        

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        • Subject: Re: LIRR
        • Message Number: 760069
        • Posted by: Jr
        • Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:29 1997
          
          In Reply to: [7]LIRR posted by Mike on November 29, 1997 at 22:21:24: Next time you see this write down the train number and time out of term. then report them. there not allowed to ride with there door open. It's not safe.
          

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          • Subject: Re: LIRR
          • Message Number: 760076
          • Posted by: Scruffy
          • Date: Sat Dec 6 17:40:46 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR posted by LIRR on December 01, 1997 at 08:07:48: SHUT UP!! You have a code to dress, so USE IT!!
            

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            • Subject: Re: LIRR
            • Message Number: 760085
            • Posted by: Bootsy
            • Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:02 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: LIRR posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 01, 1997 at 10:53:33: And I bet these are the same people that belong to the labor unions and jump onto the pickett line the minute they don't get their way. You know, I can understand belonging to a labor union for protection against discrimination or unsafe work conditions, but Jesus Christ!! If you don't put your full concentration into your job, constantly doing a half-ass job, and constantly bending and/or violating the regulations, then you have no business behind the brake handle of a train! They should have TA and/or LIRR officials supervising the activities of the conductors and motormen, making sure they stick to their job, and TUCK YOUR DAMN SHIRTTAILS IN, GODDAMMIT!!
              

              ---

              • Subject: Re: LIRR
              • Message Number: 760088
              • Posted by: Peter Rosa
              • Date: Sat Dec 6 17:41:09 1997
                
                In Reply to: [7]Re: LIRR posted by LIRR on December 01, 1997 at 08:07:48: One reason why LIRR engineers should wear uniforms is so they can be readily identifiable to passengers in event of emergency.
                

---

Thread title: R-44s Off the A Line (755972)
Started on Sun Jun 22 11:16:43 1997, by Jim

---

• Subject: R-44s Off the A Line
• Message Number: 755972
• Posted by: Jim
• Date: Sun Jun 22 11:16:43 1997
  
  NYCT is planning to move the R-44s to the C line and use mostly R-32s and R-38s on the A line. They want to cut the dwell time on the A line and also use the R-44's for OPTO on the C line.
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: R-44s Off the A Line
  • Message Number: 755984
  • Posted by: John
  • Date: Mon Jun 23 08:42:04 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]R-44s Off the A Line posted by Jim on June 22, 1997 at 11:16:43: When will this take place?
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: R-44s Off the A Line
    • Message Number: 756032
    • Posted by: Lou
    • Date: Tue Jun 24 18:33:53 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: R-44s Off the A Line posted by John on June 23, 1997 at 08:42:04: Last Saturday I was riding the 8th Ave and the A had 32's/38's and same with the **FOUR** Car (see me running to catch it, was expecting 6) C. I am not often on the west side but the whole time riding Saturday on the A/C I did not see a 44.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: R-44s Off the A Line
      • Message Number: 756130
      • Posted by: Garfield
      • Date: Thu Jun 26 16:44:49 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: R-44s Off the A Line posted by Lou on June 24, 1997 at 18:33:53: I prefer the newer "silverbirds" I'm not really sure of the model numbers. But I think that there much faster and have better air conditioning.
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: R-44s Off the A Line
        • Message Number: 756142
        • Posted by: Steve
        • Date: Thu Jun 26 20:22:08 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: R-44s Off the A Line posted by Garfield on June 26, 1997 at 16:44:49: The NYCT has no eguipment referred to as Silver Birds. THe R-32s, 38s and 44s are all stainless steel so you'll have to be a bit more specific.
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: R-44s Off the A Line
          • Message Number: 756167
          • Posted by: M.J.S.
          • Date: Fri Jun 27 15:22:46 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: R-44s Off the A Line posted by Steve on June 26, 1997 at 20:22:08: It doesn't matter, the RedBirds are the worst cars on the fleet, any stainless steel car is better.
            

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Thread title: Re: MLW's still in service??? (755973)
Started on Sun Jun 22 15:41:57 1997, by Brian W

---

• Subject: Re: MLW's still in service???
• Message Number: 755973
• Posted by: Brian W
• Date: Sun Jun 22 15:41:57 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: MLW's still in service??? Re: Transit in Movies - Again posted by Nathan on June 21, 1997 at 15:45:54: Well, I was on the BD-line on an M-train (which was 6 or 8 cars), and I passed at least 2 more going in the opposite direction, which also contained 6 or 8 cars, so there are at least 18 cars servicable...
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: MLW's still in service???
  • Message Number: 755994
  • Posted by: Bingo
  • Date: Mon Jun 23 14:53:46 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: MLW's still in service??? posted by Brian W on June 22, 1997 at 15:41:57: I went to Square One today in Mississauga, so I had to get to Islington station. I got on an MLW, and in the ugly part of town (Humberside) I noticed another trainset passing. Therefore, the total amount of MLW cars I have seen in service is 16. 36 may be the magic number, but I seriously doubt that they would keep all of them running. Where do I send my letter for the repainted T-1's, Nathan?
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: MLW's still in service???
    • Message Number: 756003
    • Posted by: Nathan
    • Date: Mon Jun 23 18:15:03 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: MLW's still in service??? posted by Bingo on June 23, 1997 at 14:53:46: Ok, to sort this out, this summer I'm going to ride the BD end to end, during the day, and during the night, keep track of the number of MLW's I see, and add them up. MLW's (On the bloor line) are charecterized by their roof vents, right? you know, the ugly slotted roof vents that traverse each side of the roof? Hmm, I'll try to find the TTC's mailing address.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: MLW's still in service???
      • Message Number: 756005
      • Posted by: Bingo
      • Date: Mon Jun 23 18:26:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: MLW's still in service??? posted by Nathan on June 23, 1997 at 18:15:03: They have BLACK roofs with a very french bright YELLOW interior and LIGHT BLUE plastic bench seats. The windows are round and don't open (still, it's not air conditioned) and they don't have the chime system on them. The guards are still having their fun with them whistles.
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: MLW's still in service???
        • Message Number: 756029
        • Posted by: Bingo
        • Date: Tue Jun 24 16:36:41 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: MLW's still in service??? posted by Bingo on June 23, 1997 at 18:26:24: The count is 36 MLW cars on property, all of which are in revenue service, which are rotated in 18 car blocks. I called TTC today, that's what they told me. I still think they are ugly (not as bad as the H-5's, mind you) but they are older than the H-1's, are extremely well built, and barely show their age.
          

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Thread title: Re: Baltimore cars (755974)
Started on Sun Jun 22 15:54:28 1997, by Mark Greenwald

---

• Subject: Re: Baltimore cars
• Message Number: 755974
• Posted by: Mark Greenwald
• Date: Sun Jun 22 15:54:28 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Breda Cars posted by Steve on June 22, 1997 at 11:09:17: What makes the purchase interesting that Baltimore did, was that, from the original 208-car order---Baltimore purchased 172 of them. Metro-Dade (Miami) bought the others. The two cities worked together to create a large order in order to keep the costs down----I think other cities ought to look into this kind of teamwork.
  

---

Thread title: Re: The PRT of WVU (755975)
Started on Sun Jun 22 15:57:28 1997, by Mark Greenwald

---

• Subject: Re: The PRT of WVU
• Message Number: 755975
• Posted by: Mark Greenwald
• Date: Sun Jun 22 15:57:28 1997
  
  Did you notice---Dave added the track map for the West Virginia Univ. Personal Rapid Transit (PRT) on his transit systems worldwide section. It appears to be rather detailed. It's something different..........
  

---

Thread title: Proposed New Sta on IRT 2/3 at 103 St (755977)
Started on Sun Jun 22 19:08:00 1997, by subway-buff

---

• Subject: Proposed New Sta on IRT 2/3 at 103 St
• Message Number: 755977
• Posted by: subway-buff
• Date: Sun Jun 22 19:08:00 1997
  
  I was lookign at track maps on this site and wondered why there can't be a station on the IRT to connect with 103 on the IND. If my memory serves me right, the tunnel is wide and there is a large gap between the tracks so an insland platform on the IRT level could be built along with needed passageways to the IND 103 Street Station.
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: Proposed New Sta on IRT 2/3 at 103 St
  • Message Number: 755987
  • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
  • Date: Mon Jun 23 10:54:52 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Proposed New Sta on IRT 2/3 at 103 St posted by subway-buff on June 22, 1997 at 19:08:00: The 2 line is already one of the longest trips time wise on NYCT. Would the additional running time and the cost to build such a station be worth the convenience of a transfer there?
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: Proposed New Sta on IRT 2/3 at 103 St
    • Message Number: 756009
    • Posted by: Steve
    • Date: Mon Jun 23 21:09:03 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Proposed New Sta on IRT 2/3 at 103 St posted by subway-buff on June 22, 1997 at 19:08:00: There are many places on the NYCT system where lines are close enough to make a free transfer point. The question is will the useage justify the cost and will there be a real benifit? Take for example the discussion here several weeks ago abour a transfer between the #7 and the IND at Queens/Queensboro Plaza.
      

---

Thread title: Other R-1 Qualities (was Re: R-44's and 46's) (755981)
Started on Mon Jun 23 07:26:02 1997, by Julio Perez

---

• Subject: Other R-1 Qualities (was Re: R-44's and 46's)
• Message Number: 755981
• Posted by: Julio Perez
• Date: Mon Jun 23 07:26:02 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: R-44's and 46's posted by John on June 19, 1997 at 20:07:04: How about the Westinghouse fans on the R-1s? Anyone have a surplus of them to sell?
  

---

Thread title: R-14x Question (755982)
Started on Mon Jun 23 07:33:18 1997, by Julio Perez

---

• Subject: R-14x Question
• Message Number: 755982
• Posted by: Julio Perez
• Date: Mon Jun 23 07:33:18 1997
  
  Will the new R-14xs allow traveling over switches _without_ temporarily shutting off the main lights of the cars? The switch outside of Times Square on the 7 (Queens-bound, of course) was presumably on a curve, and it seemed it took forever for the cars to light up again once it was out of the switch area.
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: R-14x Question
  • Message Number: 755983
  • Posted by: John
  • Date: Mon Jun 23 08:41:04 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]R-14x Question posted by Julio Perez on June 23, 1997 at 07:33:18: That's not the only place on the #7 line where the lights shut off. After exiting the tunnel (after Hunterspoint Ave, I think), the lights turn off and remain off indefinately. Also in the tunnel on the approach to Main Street, the lights are flickering on and off. This, however, is the only line on which this still happens, I beleive. Ride any other train - the lights will never shut off (although they may slightly dim). I think this is because of a device that keeps reserve current flowing to the train. I'm not too electrically inclined, but I think this is vaguely correct.
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: R-14x Question
    • Message Number: 755988
    • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
    • Date: Mon Jun 23 11:01:20 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: R-14x Question posted by John on June 23, 1997 at 08:41:04: The reason for this is the type of lighting equipment used. The equipment on the 7 train, and presumably similar equipment on other lines, use DC discharge tubes for their flourescent lighting. These flash on and off just like the old incandescent lighting. Newer cars use standard AC flourescents, powered from an inverter which is in turn powered by the battery voltage on the cars. These stay on, but might dim slightly, going through gaps.
      

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Thread title: Rail Control Center (755985)
Started on Mon Jun 23 08:43:31 1997, by Peter Rosa

---

• Subject: Rail Control Center
• Message Number: 755985
• Posted by: Peter Rosa
• Date: Mon Jun 23 08:43:31 1997
  
  This week's edition of Crain's New York Business includes a fold-out map of Manhattan, with major buildings and landmarks highlighted. On the SE corner of Ninth Avenue and 54th Street, there's a big area shown as the "Transit Authority Rail Control Center." This is still under construction, as there's excavation going on at the site. What exactly is this center? I haven't seen any mention of it before.
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: Rail Control Center
  • Message Number: 755989
  • Posted by: Bryan Layne
  • Date: Mon Jun 23 12:22:29 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Rail Control Center posted by Peter Rosa on June 23, 1997 at 08:43:31: And won't this eliminate jobs? Will there be no need for interlocking towers,etc,etc....?
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: Rail Control Center
    • Message Number: 756000
    • Posted by: Charles Fiori
    • Date: Mon Jun 23 16:59:15 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Rail Control Center posted by Bryan Layne on June 23, 1997 at 12:22:29: Isn't that the site of the old 54th Street MaBSTOA garage? Where did the routes and the buses go? What of the Command Center on the 4th Floor at 370 Jay Street?
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: Rail Control Center
      • Message Number: 756001
      • Posted by: Charles Fiori
      • Date: Mon Jun 23 16:59:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Rail Control Center posted by Bryan Layne on June 23, 1997 at 12:22:29: Isn't that the site of the old 54th Street MaBSTOA garage? Where did the routes and the buses go? What of the Command Center on the 4th Floor at 370 Jay Street?
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: Rail Control Center
        • Message Number: 756007
        • Posted by: Steve
        • Date: Mon Jun 23 20:56:29 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Rail Control Center posted by Peter Rosa on June 23, 1997 at 08:43:31: The new Control Center will replace the 3rd floor at 370 Jay Street (The Command Center depicted in "The Taking of Pelham 123". It will be phased in over the next several years. Unlike the present Command Center, this one WILL indicate train locations for the entire system.
          

---

Thread title: Whitehall Ferry Terminal (755991)
Started on Mon Jun 23 12:31:05 1997, by BRYAN LAYNE

---

• Subject: Whitehall Ferry Terminal
• Message Number: 755991
• Posted by: BRYAN LAYNE
• Date: Mon Jun 23 12:31:05 1997
  
  Are there any direct Subway-W.Ferry Terminal pedestrian tunnels.I'm pretty sure I've heard there are.Are there any closed off or abandoned connections(due to the Terminal fire,neglect..)?
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: Whitehall Ferry Terminal
  • Message Number: 756017
  • Posted by: Dan
  • Date: Tue Jun 24 08:58:59 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Whitehall Ferry Terminal posted by BRYAN LAYNE on June 23, 1997 at 12:31:05: No connections exist. The 'new' Whitehall terminal might have direct covered above-ground connections to the 1/9 at South Ferry, and the N/R at Whitehall Street. Underground connections would be nice but very expensive to construct.
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: Whitehall Ferry Terminal
    • Message Number: 756021
    • Posted by: John
    • Date: Tue Jun 24 14:23:43 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Whitehall Ferry Terminal posted by Dan on June 24, 1997 at 08:58:59: Where is the passageway to the inner platform at the South Ferry 1/9 station? I know that the inner platform is closed, but there has to be a passageway to it somewhere. I can't even find a trace of a passageway.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: Whitehall Ferry Terminal
      • Message Number: 756024
      • Posted by: David Pirmann
      • Date: Tue Jun 24 14:39:12 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Whitehall Ferry Terminal posted by John on June 24, 1997 at 14:23:43: The stairway is just to the left of the token booth (I'm not sure if there's more than one booth at South Ferry, so that might not be very clear.) Anyway, it's behind a door so you can't see it unless the door is open. You basically go down, twist around, walk thru a corridor, and then you come out on the platform area. There's crew quarters down there-- lockers and sinks and maintenance stuff in one area, and the north/western half is still wide open (see pix at [7]Here.
        

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Thread title: CarBody Lights (756008)
Started on Mon Jun 23 21:04:26 1997, by Steve

---

• Subject: CarBody Lights
• Message Number: 756008
• Posted by: Steve
• Date: Mon Jun 23 21:04:26 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]R-14x Question posted by Julio Perez on June 23, 1997 at 07:33:18: The flurescent lights on the Corona cars go off when the car goes over a 3rd rail gap because they are powered by 600 Volts DC. On virtually all other equipment, the fluorescents are powered by the battery voltage through Inverter Ballasts which provide the AC to light the tubes. Since the battery voltage is not dependent on 600 Volt 3rd rail power, the lights stay on. However, to reduce battery drain during prolonged loss of 3rd rail power, the cars are designed so only about 1/3 of the lights will remain lit beyond a few minutes.
  

---

Thread title: Second Avenue Subway (756012)
Started on Tue Jun 24 01:07:30 1997, by David L.

---

• Subject: Second Avenue Subway
• Message Number: 756012
• Posted by: David L.
• Date: Tue Jun 24 01:07:30 1997
  
  I really haven't been paying attention lately, but does the TA plan on doing anything with the Second Avenue subway? Has there even been any talks about any plans for the Second Avenue subway? Or are they just going to let the Second Avenue subway sit there and rot? Oh and this is unrealated to the second avenue subway, but when does the Transit Museum plan on opening up the City Hall station(please don't tell me around 1997-1998).
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: Second Avenue Subway
  • Message Number: 756019
  • Posted by: Ted Nielsen
  • Date: Tue Jun 24 13:09:32 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Second Avenue Subway posted by David L. on June 24, 1997 at 01:07:30: As far as I know , the TA has no plans for the 2nd. Ave. subway. Its a shame since the IRT line is so congested and the 2nd. Ave. subway would provide relief. I have an idea for the route of the subway : start it in South Brooklyn ( at the present time , people have to walk or take the bus to a subway station ) , continue to Atlantic Ave. , to the piers ( there are plans to develop a recreational / commercial area like South Street Seaport ) and then under the East River to Manhattan ( under the Bklyn Bridge ) , up 2nd. Ave. until 90th St. , under the East River again into Astoria and ending at La Guardia Airport ( its another fantasy , I know )
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: Second Avenue Subway
    • Message Number: 756023
    • Posted by: David Pirmann
    • Date: Tue Jun 24 14:36:10 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Second Avenue Subway posted by David L. on June 24, 1997 at 01:07:30: The TA still considers Second Avenue an active project. There was a press conference two weeks ago at City Hall which commemorated the closing of the 2nd Avenue El 55 years ago and reiterated the need for the subway. Whether it will be built in our lifetimes is uncertain. Last I heard, the TA had recommissioned environmental impact, enginerring, and alternatives studies for the 2nd Avenue corridor.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: Second Avenue Subway
      • Message Number: 756036
      • Posted by: John of Calgary
      • Date: Tue Jun 24 19:10:27 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Second Avenue Subway posted by Ted Nielsen on June 24, 1997 at 13:09:32: Sorry to tell you, but they ARE opening the abandoned City Hall Station in 1998. Sorry!
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: Second Avenue Subway
        • Message Number: 756061
        • Posted by: David L.
        • Date: Wed Jun 25 01:45:05 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: Second Avenue Subway posted by John of Calgary on June 24, 1997 at 19:10:27: Thank you John!
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: Second Avenue Subway
          • Message Number: 756093
          • Posted by: John of Calgary
          • Date: Wed Jun 25 19:15:01 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: Second Avenue Subway posted by Ted Nielsen on June 24, 1997 at 13:09:32: It's good. But it should have a little improvements here and there. Here's some pointers: 1. Start in Coney Island. 2. Travel up the Brighton Line 3. Turn onto the Franklin Shuttle Route. 4. Build connection between the Franklin S and the A and C. 5. Follow A and C route until High Street 6. Build tunnel across East River or go onto the Brooklyn Bridge.(Build lower deck!) 7. Go up 2nd Avenue. Connecting with these route along the way: - Grand Street(B,D,Q) and East Broadway(F) with a passageway. - 1 Avenue(L) with an another passageway. - 42 Street Grand Central(S,4,5,6,7) with an another passageway. - Lexington/3 Avenues(E,F,6) and 59 Street(4,5,6) and Lexington Avenue(B,Q) with 3 passageways 8. Make 2 branches. One to the Bronx and the other to LaGuardia Airport And you should get the rest of the picture. Do you?
            

            ---

            • Subject: Re: Second Avenue Subway
            • Message Number: 756164
            • Posted by: M.J.S.
            • Date: Fri Jun 27 13:08:54 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: Second Avenue Subway posted by John of Calgary on June 25, 1997 at 19:15:01: Before you start msking up crazy ideas for subway routings that will never work, why don't you just check out Framklin Avenue Station? The Shuttle is high on an embankment and the subway is completely below the street, and the Franklin Shuttle Station points directly onto the Franklin Subway Station. It would be cheaper and easier to abandon the shuttle and build a duplicate under some street other Than Franklin, like Bedford.
              

              ---

              • Subject: Second Avenue Subway
              • Message Number: 758627
              • Posted by: Chris Brunson
              • Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:18 1997
                
                Does any one know the current status of the second avenue subway line. There have been many different initiative to build one. Thank's for your reply when given.
                

                ---

                • Subject: Re: Second Avenue Subway
                • Message Number: 758675
                • Posted by: Peter Rosa
                • Date: Wed Nov 5 22:31:55 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [6]Second Avenue Subway posted by Chris Brunson on October 17, 1997 at 02:02:27: The Second Avenue Subway is still technically alive, being carried on the books somewhere as an active project. In reality, of course, there are no funds allocated for it and nothing is even in the planning stage yet. As the expression goes, breaths should not be held.
                  

                  ---

                  • Subject: Re: Second Avenue Subway
                  • Message Number: 759064
                  • Posted by: Charles A. Warren
                  • Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:01 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [6]Second Avenue Subway posted by Chris Brunson on October 17, 1997 at 02:02:27: One of my friends tha I grew up with in NY worked on the electrical plans for the 2nd Ave Subway. He wound up living and working in Ohio back in the 70's.
                    

                    ---

                    • Subject: Re: Second Avenue Subway
                    • Message Number: 759068
                    • Posted by: Mark Greenwald
                    • Date: Wed Nov 5 22:37:04 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [6]Re: Second Avenue Subway posted by Peter Rosa on October 17, 1997 at 09:21:04: Actually, in the early 70's, construction could be found up & down 2nd Avenue but was halted. There are prtions of tunnels all along the route. There is a portion of this site devoted to the sorded history of the line. It's very interesting.
                      

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Thread title: Re: Chicago Els (CTA Museum) (756018)
Started on Tue Jun 24 11:52:33 1997, by Ed Sachs

---

• Subject: Re: Chicago Els (CTA Museum)
• Message Number: 756018
• Posted by: Ed Sachs
• Date: Tue Jun 24 11:52:33 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Chicago Els posted by Bryan LAYNE on June 23, 1997 at 12:26:52: The CTA did, at one time, own a collection of historic streetcars (including horsecars and cable cars), but some years ago donated these to the Illinois Railway Museum.
  

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Thread title: New York City Bus (RTS) (756022)
Started on Tue Jun 24 14:29:51 1997, by Charles

---

• Subject: New York City Bus (RTS)
• Message Number: 756022
• Posted by: Charles
• Date: Tue Jun 24 14:29:51 1997
  
  Does Anyone know if there was a Transit Authority RTS built with ad wings. If there was does anyone have pictures of it? I know that there were a few Grummans with them.
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: New York City Bus (RTS)
  • Message Number: 756030
  • Posted by: Wayne Johnson
  • Date: Tue Jun 24 17:34:40 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]New York City Bus (RTS) posted by Charles on June 24, 1997 at 14:29:51: Charles, As far as I know NYCTA never did operate any RTS's with ad wings. Before the Grumman 870's were withdrawn from service one of them (#631) had ad wings. This bus was assigned to the 132nd Street Depot and it was later transferred to the 54th Street Depot. One Flxible bus (built approx. 1975/76) also had ad wings. This bus was #7753. It orignally operated out of the 54th Street Depot in Manhattan, but was later transferred to the West Farms Depot in the Bronx.
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: New York City Bus (RTS)
    • Message Number: 756057
    • Posted by: Zack
    • Date: Wed Jun 25 01:28:26 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: New York City Bus (RTS) posted by Wayne Johnson on June 24, 1997 at 17:34:40: What are adwings?
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: New York City Bus (RTS)
      • Message Number: 756067
      • Posted by: Charles Fiori
      • Date: Wed Jun 25 07:51:03 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: New York City Bus (RTS) posted by Zack on June 25, 1997 at 01:28:26: Adwings were advertising boards attached along the rooflines. They were maybe 3 feet high and in three pieces, 2 of equal size on the ends and a smaller one in the middle, covering the entire length of the bus, on both sides. When these things first debuted in the 60s, the smaller section in the middle housed a destination sign (outer boroughs) or route sign (Manhattan). I was a big fan of those signs and would be EXTREMELY PLEASED to track down some of them.
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: New York City Bus (RTS)
        • Message Number: 756071
        • Posted by: Wayne Johnson
        • Date: Wed Jun 25 09:28:38 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: New York City Bus (RTS) posted by Zack on June 25, 1997 at 01:28:26: That middle sign was actually a route sign (as opposed to destination sign) on all MABSTOA buses. 6701-6900 (Non-Air Conditioned) 8301-877? (Air Conditioned)
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: New York City Bus (RTS)
          • Message Number: 756078
          • Posted by: Charles Fiori
          • Date: Wed Jun 25 12:09:45 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: New York City Bus (RTS) posted by Wayne Johnson on June 25, 1997 at 09:28:38: If I remember correctly, Coliseum Depot was MaBSTOA. I have one of the signs from the adwings and they had destinations and route numbers as opposed to route numbers and names. Once the signs became too annoying to change, etc., the route/destination signs were replaced by Happy Faces :). I really, really would love to find some more of those signs. Wild goose chases I do not need, but if you know where some might reside...
            

            ---

            • Subject: Re: New York City Bus (RTS)
            • Message Number: 756080
            • Posted by: Wayne Johnson
            • Date: Wed Jun 25 13:49:24 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: New York City Bus (RTS) posted by Charles Fiori on June 25, 1997 at 12:09:45: Yes, Coliseum Depot, was a MABSTOA depot (It was recently demolished), but I was unaware of it's side adwing signs with destinations on it. Thanks for the info. I do remember that these signs pretty much had the same info as the side sign (near the exit door) on buses without adwings. I remember that some Coliseum routes had many branches and they would have a sign for the branch that a particular bus was serving such as "12 Fordham Road - City Island" "12A Fordham Road Pelham Parkway" "12B Fordham Road Orchard Beach" and I believe their was one for the Pelham golf course also. If I remember correctly Kingsbridge and West Farms Depots (The other two Bronx depots) had side adwings signs with route information. Thanks again and much luck in finding those signs
              

              ---

              • Subject: Re: New York City Bus (RTS)
              • Message Number: 756115
              • Posted by: Charles Fiori
              • Date: Thu Jun 26 08:17:05 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]Re: New York City Bus (RTS) posted by Wayne Johnson on June 25, 1997 at 13:49:24: Somewhere I have a list of what is on that sign. Barring that I could re-write the listing, but that's a longer-term project. Feel free to remind me if you do not hear anything. I also have a sign, which I bought at the old Broadway Limited antiques shop on w. 33d, which is in red cloth. Front sign from one of the first fishbowls, and the only ones to have actual split front signs. Great readings like Orchard Beach, City Island, and FREEDOMLAND!!! Probably one of the few with which I'd never part.
                

                ---

                • Subject: Re: New York City Bus (RTS)
                • Message Number: 756151
                • Posted by: STEVE LOWENTHAL
                • Date: Fri Jun 27 01:00:12 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [6]Re: New York City Bus (RTS) posted by Charles Fiori on June 26, 1997 at 08:17:05: ANYONE HAVE A COMPLETE LIST OF THE DESTINATION SIGNS.USED DURING THE FREEDOMLAND ERA ,,IN THE BRONX AND MANHATTAN AND BROOKLYN
                  

                  ---

                  • Subject: Re: New York City Bus (RTS)
                  • Message Number: 756152
                  • Posted by: STEVE LOWENTHAL
                  • Date: Fri Jun 27 01:00:33 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [6]Re: New York City Bus (RTS) posted by Charles Fiori on June 26, 1997 at 08:17:05: ANYONE HAVE A COMPLETE LIST OF THE DESTINATION SIGNS.USED DURING THE FREEDOMLAND ERA ,,IN THE BRONX AND MANHATTAN AND BROOKLYN ,,LOOKING FOR THE EXACT READINGS
                    

                    ---

                    • Subject: Re: New York City Bus (RTS)
                    • Message Number: 756153
                    • Posted by: Charles Fiori
                    • Date: Fri Jun 27 06:45:37 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [5]Re: New York City Bus (RTS) posted by STEVE LOWENTHAL on June 27, 1997 at 01:00:33: I once wrote down the listings on the red/white sign that I have. At some point I'll do it again. Remind me.
                      

---

Thread title: Vancouver-Seattle "Mt Baker International" Slamtrak Talgos (756026)
Started on Tue Jun 24 16:04:40 1997, by Nathan

---

• Subject: Vancouver-Seattle "Mt Baker International" Slamtrak Talgos
• Message Number: 756026
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Tue Jun 24 16:04:40 1997
  
  ok, I know this is not really urban transit, but oh well. Anyway, I heard from a friend in Seattle that more track-upgrades to this rail corridor are being planned. I am not sure if this is true, all I know is that Slamtrak, Washington DOT, the bc gov, and Renfe Talgo (car manufacturor) were engaged in a co-operative effort to bring high speed rail travel to this corridor, through an incremental approach (first step was the tilting Talgo Pendular rail cars). Anyway, Does anyone know any details on this? I think that corridor should be a prime consideration for a high speed line; it is already running at 95% of capacity.
  

---

Thread title: Express C train? (756031)
Started on Tue Jun 24 18:02:29 1997, by Shig

---

• Subject: Express C train?
• Message Number: 756031
• Posted by: Shig
• Date: Tue Jun 24 18:02:29 1997
  
  When I took uptown C train from 14 Street last week, it ran as an express train and skipped local stations. In the system map, C seems to be always local. Does such non-listed express service often run in NYC subway?
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: Express C train?
  • Message Number: 756034
  • Posted by: John of Calgary
  • Date: Tue Jun 24 19:00:45 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Express C train? posted by Shig on June 24, 1997 at 18:02:29: Maybe the MTA was doing track recostruction or maybe the stations needed renovation. Did you see any red signs at your station? EOr you can call the MTA customer service to spill the beans on the story.
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: Express C train?
    • Message Number: 756035
    • Posted by: John of Calgary
    • Date: Tue Jun 24 19:02:39 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Express C train? posted by Shig on June 24, 1997 at 18:02:29: Try calling MTA customer service. Or maybe even try looking for signs at your subway station.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: Express C train?
      • Message Number: 756054
      • Posted by: Steve
      • Date: Wed Jun 25 00:27:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Express C train? posted by Shig on June 24, 1997 at 18:02:29: No need to call customer service. The uptown C runs express from Canal Street to 59th Street (weekdays) due to construction at Canal Street. I have no idea, however, how long this will be going on. Southbound service is not effected.
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: Express C train?
        • Message Number: 756055
        • Posted by: David L.
        • Date: Wed Jun 25 01:19:15 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Express C train? posted by Shig on June 24, 1997 at 18:02:29: What's actually happening is that the TA is trying to replace a crossover track north of Canal St. Usually C trains coming from the Fulton Street line share the same tracks with the A train up to Canal Street. When the C train leaves Canal St, it uses that crossover to switch on the 8 Ave local tracks. But now that the TA are replacing the crossover, Northbound C trains are running on the 8 Ave express track.
          

---

Thread title: Extra route on L line (756033)
Started on Tue Jun 24 18:57:49 1997, by John of Calgary

---

• Subject: Extra route on L line
• Message Number: 756033
• Posted by: John of Calgary
• Date: Tue Jun 24 18:57:49 1997
  
  The people at the MTA should really consider this! Here is my message: The MTA should start plaaning a route that would release some of the load off the L train. Maybe try and refurbish the link between Livonia Av (L line) and Junius St. (3/4 line). Or build a link between the L line and the J/M/Z line at Broadway Junction. If they can carry out these improvements, here are some of the suggested numbers or letters for these trains. -For the L and 3/4 line: The colour should be grey and the letter should be :H,I or the number 8. -For the L and J/M/Z line: The colour: grey.(DUH!) letter or number: K,P or the number 10. Those who think this is a good idea, respond today!!!! For those who think that this is a stupid, dumb, etc. idea. Do respond, but don't put stupid things on it!
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: Extra route on L line
  • Message Number: 756039
  • Posted by: Andrew Huie
  • Date: Tue Jun 24 19:16:06 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Extra route on L line posted by John of Calgary on June 24, 1997 at 18:57:49: Actually, this was done before. The last time a train went from Canarsie to Bway (Brooklyn) was the 'JJ' in the 60's. But if they do it now, where should it go? Should it follow the old 'K' route up Sixth Avenue or go down Nassau Street like the 'J'? Also, should it skip-stop like the 'J' along Bway or go completely local and let the 'J' go express? The latter would be nice for the 'J', but then who would want to take the new line?
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: Extra route on L line
    • Message Number: 756040
    • Posted by: John of Calgary
    • Date: Tue Jun 24 19:30:19 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Extra route on L line posted by Andrew Huie on June 24, 1997 at 19:16:06: Well, the one that connects the L and the 3/4 should A. go to 241 Street Wakefield or Dyre Av. or 148 Street Lenox Terminal or the 242 Street Van Cortlandt Park. And as for the L and J/M/Z line, it could use that abandoned streetcar station when trains descend from the Willamsburg Bridge. That is accessable to trains if trains go straight down instead of turning into Essex St. (It is visible. if there is no Brooklyn then Queens bound trains, go to the very front and stare out the door's window.) or Maybe use the disused dead end at Canal St by breaking down the wall and build tracks so trains from Bowery can enter it. or run it all the way to Chambers Street or Broad Street or maybe to Coney Island by the way of the M. And (THIS IS OFF TOPIC!!!!!!) extend the M Shuttle from Myrtle Street to Essex St. (It can terminate at that abandoned streetcar terminal I mentioned earlier.)
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: Extra route on L line
      • Message Number: 756048
      • Posted by: John
      • Date: Tue Jun 24 23:58:30 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: Extra route on L line posted by John of Calgary on June 24, 1997 at 19:30:19: The connection between the L and the 3/4 cannot be used for revenue service because the demensions of the BMT/IND and IRT cars are different. However, like mentioned above, the connection at Broadway was used at one time. I beleive that there used to be a line from Canarsie to Jamaica.
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: Extra route on L line
        • Message Number: 756049
        • Posted by: Steve
        • Date: Wed Jun 25 00:01:46 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Extra route on L line posted by John of Calgary on June 24, 1997 at 18:57:49: Not a dumb idea but unworkable. The L line uses B division equipment wheras the 3/4 lines use IRT equipment. It would work fine until the first L train got onto the IRT trackage and tore up the first platform it gets to.
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: Extra route on L line
          • Message Number: 756065
          • Posted by: z
          • Date: Wed Jun 25 06:02:01 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Extra route on L line posted by John of Calgary on June 24, 1997 at 18:57:49: I think money would be best spent elsewhere on the system. As long as we don't get to a system like they have with Barcelona three different subway companies and a rail company serve the city. Even worse, connections at stations between lines are miles apart. Anyway, I've heard of a plan to develope the trackage that exists next to the L. As you head from Wilson Avenue towards East New York, you can see the trackage. My only question is where it leads, and is it really neccessary?
            

            ---

            • Subject: Re: Extra route on L line
            • Message Number: 756068
            • Posted by: Dan
            • Date: Wed Jun 25 08:30:48 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: Extra route on L line posted by z on June 25, 1997 at 06:02:01: The tracks adjacent to the 'L' line are the LIRR's Bay Ridge freight line. They run from 2 Avenue & 65 Street in Bay Ridge east across Brooklyn, then north into Queens. There was LIRR passenger service possibly into the 1920's. I don't think there are any remnants of the stations visible.
              

              ---

              • Subject: Re: Extra route on L line
              • Message Number: 756089
              • Posted by: subway-buff
              • Date: Wed Jun 25 17:30:35 1997
                
                In Reply to: [6]Re: Extra route on L line posted by John on June 24, 1997 at 23:58:30: The track connections still exist.On 6/14/97, The L train ran from the Jamaica bound Track of the J line to Rockaway parkway on the L Line due to track work.
                

                ---

                • Subject: Re: Extra route on L line
                • Message Number: 756091
                • Posted by: John of Calgary
                • Date: Wed Jun 25 18:25:40 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [5]Re: Extra route on L line posted by subway-buff on June 25, 1997 at 17:30:35: What do you mean by the L running on the Jamaica bound J track to Rockaway Parkway?
                  

                  ---

                  • Subject: Re: Extra route on L line
                  • Message Number: 756105
                  • Posted by: David L.
                  • Date: Wed Jun 25 23:26:42 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [5]Re: Extra route on L line posted by John of Calgary on June 25, 1997 at 18:25:40: There's a track connection between the J and L lines at the Broadway Junction. In other words- a L train running on the J line ran north to Broadway-E. New York, then switched onto the Canarsie line heading to Rockaway Parkway
                    

                    ---

                    • Subject: Re: Extra route on L line
                    • Message Number: 756108
                    • Posted by: John of Calgary
                    • Date: Thu Jun 26 01:08:29 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [5]Re: Extra route on L line posted by David L. on June 25, 1997 at 23:26:42: I still don't get it. Do you mean that the L train terminates at B'Way Jct., then uses the J line to make a U turn?
                      

                      ---

                      • Subject: Re: Extra route on L line
                      • Message Number: 756113
                      • Posted by: irv
                      • Date: Thu Jun 26 03:44:42 1997
                        
                        In Reply to: [6]Re: Extra route on L line posted by Dan on June 25, 1997 at 08:30:48: Are these the same tracks that run under the 7 line at about 65th or 74th street? Is the route of any use to the MTA and could it be tied into an existing line to provide passenger serivce?
                        

                        ---

                        • Subject: Re: Extra route on L line
                        • Message Number: 756121
                        • Posted by: John
                        • Date: Thu Jun 26 14:14:30 1997
                          
                          In Reply to: [5]Re: Extra route on L line posted by John of Calgary on June 26, 1997 at 01:08:29: No, man. Here. Picture this: You have two intersecting lines. The left side of the horizontal line is Manhattan and the right side is Jamaica. On the vertical line, the bottom is Canarsie. The intersection is Broadway Junction. The L train is on the horizontal line, going left to right. At the intersection, it turns and heads to the bottom of the vertical line. Look at a subway map and try to use this analogy and you'll understand.
                          

                          ---

                          • Subject: Re: Extra route on L line
                          • Message Number: 756128
                          • Posted by: Garfield
                          • Date: Thu Jun 26 16:32:20 1997
                            
                            In Reply to: [6]Re: Extra route on L line posted by z on June 25, 1997 at 06:02:01: That just maybe a bad idea and a waste of money. I've rode the L train a few times before and thought that it does not transport a heavy load of riders. I honestly think that the MTA should provide express service from Marcy Ave to Eastern Pkwy on the J/Z line. This would defintely ease congestion on both the Queens Blvd line (E,F,G,R) and the Fulton line (A,C). This was the main reason why the MTA brought "skip-stop" service for the J when it use to ride alone.
                            

                            ---

                            • Subject: Re: Extra route on L line
                            • Message Number: 756129
                            • Posted by: Garfield
                            • Date: Thu Jun 26 16:38:13 1997
                              
                              In Reply to: [6]Re: Extra route on L line posted by z on June 25, 1997 at 06:02:01: That just maybe a bad idea and a waste of money. I've rode the L train a few times before and thought that it does not transport a heavy load of riders. I honestly think that the MTA should provide express service from Marcy Ave to Eastern Pkwy on the J/Z line. This would defintely ease congestion on both the Queens Blvd line (E,F,G,R) and the Fulton line (A,C). This was the main reason why the MTA brought "skip-stop" service for the J when it use to ride alone.
                              

                              ---

                              • Subject: Re: Extra route on L line
                              • Message Number: 756131
                              • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
                              • Date: Thu Jun 26 16:50:39 1997
                                
                                In Reply to: [6]Re: Extra route on L line posted by John on June 26, 1997 at 14:14:30: In other words, instead of having come from its normal terminal at 14th St. and 8th Av. a diversion caused an L train to run out the J/Z line structure and then divert onto its normal route.
                                

                                ---

                                • Subject: Re: Extra route on L line
                                • Message Number: 756138
                                • Posted by: John of Calgary
                                • Date: Thu Jun 26 20:01:44 1997
                                  
                                  In Reply to: [5]Re: Extra route on L line posted by Gerry O'Regan on June 26, 1997 at 16:50:39: Then WHERE did it come from?
                                  

                                  ---

                                  • Subject: Re: Extra route on L line
                                  • Message Number: 756139
                                  • Posted by: John of Calgary
                                  • Date: Thu Jun 26 20:07:28 1997
                                    
                                    In Reply to: [5]Re: Extra route on L line posted by Garfield on June 26, 1997 at 16:38:13: Uh, haven't you heard? they cancelled the J/Z skip stop between Marcy and Myrtle.
                                    

                                    ---

                                    • Subject: Re: Extra route on L line
                                    • Message Number: 756141
                                    • Posted by: Steve
                                    • Date: Thu Jun 26 20:19:41 1997
                                      
                                      In Reply to: [5]Re: Extra route on L line posted by irv on June 26, 1997 at 03:44:42: The tracks you are referring to are the Conrail tracks that go north, over the Hells Gate Bridge into the Bronx. I believe that they do interconnect with the Bay Ridge Branch somewhere near Fresh pond Road.
                                      

                                      ---

                                      • Subject: Re: Extra route on L line
                                      • Message Number: 756149
                                      • Posted by: David L.
                                      • Date: Thu Jun 26 23:41:47 1997
                                        
                                        In Reply to: [5]Re: Extra route on L line posted by John of Calgary on June 26, 1997 at 20:07:28: I still don't understand. Why did the cancel it?!?!? WHY? WHY? WHY?
                                        

                                        ---

                                        • Subject: Re: Extra route on L line
                                        • Message Number: 756161
                                        • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
                                        • Date: Fri Jun 27 12:20:53 1997
                                          
                                          In Reply to: [6]Re: Extra route on L line posted by John of Calgary on June 26, 1997 at 20:01:44: Possibilities include Delancy St., Chambers St. or Broad St. on the Center St. Line, or possibly Sixth Av. to provide a connection with its normal route at 14th St. Beyond that it could have originated as a regular service train on the B, D orQ(from either direction), F(from Queens), N(from Brooklyn), A, C or E (from any North Terminal via the connection at W. 4th St. or R from either direction. Not to mention simply diverting a train from the J, M or Z. The possibilities are endless (though few are likely)!
                                          

                                          ---

                                          • Subject: Re: Extra route on L line
                                          • Message Number: 756166
                                          • Posted by: M.J.S.
                                          • Date: Fri Jun 27 15:20:16 1997
                                            
                                            In Reply to: [6]Re: Extra route on L line posted by John of Calgary on June 26, 1997 at 20:07:28: Fools, there was never any skip-stop between Marcy and Myrtle, it was always uni-directional express.
                                            

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Thread title: Cities with Elevateds (756041)
Started on Tue Jun 24 19:44:05 1997, by Timothy

---

• Subject: Cities with Elevateds
• Message Number: 756041
• Posted by: Timothy
• Date: Tue Jun 24 19:44:05 1997
  
  Can anyone tell me what other cities in the U.S., besides New York, Chicago, and Philadelphia, that still have (old) elevated lines, whether in use, or abandoned with el structures and stations still standing?
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: Cities with Elevateds
  • Message Number: 756046
  • Posted by: John
  • Date: Tue Jun 24 23:53:06 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Cities with Elevateds posted by Timothy on June 24, 1997 at 19:44:05:
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: Cities with Elevateds
    • Message Number: 756047
    • Posted by: John
    • Date: Tue Jun 24 23:53:56 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Cities with Elevateds posted by Timothy on June 24, 1997 at 19:44:05: Boston also has an elevated.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: Cities with Elevateds
      • Message Number: 756063
      • Posted by: Nathan
      • Date: Wed Jun 25 02:38:45 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Cities with Elevateds posted by Timothy on June 24, 1997 at 19:44:05: outside the US, I know that Vancouver uses els, toronto's SRT uses elevated guideways, and Kuala Lumpur's new ART (Advanced Rapid Transit) uses elevated structures, it will open in '98.
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: Cities with Elevateds
        • Message Number: 756076
        • Posted by: Gart Jacobi
        • Date: Wed Jun 25 11:14:19 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: Cities with Elevateds posted by Nathan on June 25, 1997 at 02:38:45: If your definition of els is broad enough,most systems qualify. If you limit your definition to systems with stations on elevated sections, which I think is reasomable, you still have quite a few. BART and WAMTA definitely, and I believe MARTA as well.Everyone prides in calling their new systems subways, but with the cost of underground construction today, a completely underground system is no longer fiscally sane.
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: Cities with Elevateds
          • Message Number: 756090
          • Posted by: Ron
          • Date: Wed Jun 25 17:45:16 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Cities with Elevateds posted by Timothy on June 24, 1997 at 19:44:05: Boston fine system of very interesting elevated lines indeed. They are generally as old as the ones in New York and include full train-type vehicles (Washington Street) as well as streetcar lines with shapr turns (North Starion) and hybrids (the dual power system to Wonderland, elevated at the Airport). Since you asked.
            

            ---

            • Subject: Re: Cities with Elevateds
            • Message Number: 756103
            • Posted by: Andrew Byler
            • Date: Wed Jun 25 21:45:53 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Cities with Elevateds posted by Timothy on June 24, 1997 at 19:44:05: Since very few cities actually ever had elevated railways, very few still exist. The grand total for the United States was New York, Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, and Sioux City (or maybe it was Sioux Falls - I always get them mixed up). Only the former four stil have vestigaes of their systems. These are the only cities "real" elevated lines in the tradition of steel structures running directly over the streets. Modern construction in any number of cities doesn't count as an el line by any true meaning of the word. New York has long ago lost a number of its els, most prominently the following: In Manhattan 2nd Ave. 3rd Ave. (both to a mythical 2nd Ave. subway) 6th Ave. (to the 6th Ave. subway) 9th Ave. (to the 8th Ave. subway) In the Bronx 3rd Ave. 9th Ave. connection to Jerome Ave. In Brooklyn Myrtle Ave. (part) Lexington Ave. Fulton Ave. (to Fulton Ave. subway) Jamaica (part - to new subway) 3rd/5th Ave. (to 4th Ave. subway) Culver Line (part) Philadelphia lost: Market St. 23rd St. to 45th St. (to new subway) Front St. portal to Girard Ave. (to highway median) The Camden Ferries Branch Two block section of Philadelphia and Western (Norristown High Speed Line) Boston lost its entire elevated Orange line (Washington Ave.) Chicago lost: Congress St. (to a highway median) Stock Yards Branch (to abandonment) The Paulina St. Branch to the northwest (new subway) Sioux Falls is entirely abandoned. Long sections of traditional el remain only in New York, Chicago, and Philadelphia. Overseas, the only el I've ever seen was in Berlin on the first U-bahn lines. Does anyone know if London or Paris have any real els (or any other cities for that matter)? Andy
              

              ---

              • Subject: Re: Cities with Elevateds
              • Message Number: 756112
              • Posted by: John of Calgary
              • Date: Thu Jun 26 01:28:57 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]Re: Cities with Elevateds posted by John on June 24, 1997 at 23:53:56: Like, duh. We KNOW that! And someone says its abandoned too.
                

                ---

                • Subject: Re: Cities with Elevateds
                • Message Number: 756132
                • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
                • Date: Thu Jun 26 17:06:01 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [6]Cities with Elevateds posted by Timothy on June 24, 1997 at 19:44:05: Boston's Orange Line north of downtown was abandoned in 1975. Boston's Orange Line south of downtown was abandoned in 1987. The interconnection along Atlantic Av. was abandoned in 1938 and removed in 1942, though a small section was retained for car storage until 1955. A former connection to the Tremont St. Subway south of downtown was abandoned in 1908 and removed ca. 1935. The Red Line has a short el east of Charles/MGH station. The Blue Line has a short el at Beachmont Station.(rebuilt in 1994) (Nothing at Airport) The Green Line (light rail) is elevated from just outside Haymarket to just outside Lechmere. Section between Haymarket and Northstation is brand new open deck el with highway ramp above on double deck structure. Connects to old structure over Causeway St. Remainder is concrete deck steel structure except for ornamental concrete viaduct over Charles River. Section from east of Science Park to Haymarket to be replaced with subway in a few years. The remainder will survive.
                  

                  ---

                  • Subject: Re: Cities with Elevateds
                  • Message Number: 756143
                  • Posted by: Concerned Patron
                  • Date: Thu Jun 26 20:27:10 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [5]Re: Cities with Elevateds posted by John of Calgary on June 26, 1997 at 01:28:57: Like,shutup,huh!
                    

                    ---

                    • Subject: Re: Cities with Elevateds
                    • Message Number: 756173
                    • Posted by: Andrew Huie
                    • Date: Fri Jun 27 19:55:14 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [6]Re: Cities with Elevateds posted by Andrew Byler on June 25, 1997 at 21:45:53: What was the Sioux Falls system like? Was it a more like a trolley, or did it have MU cars like NY?
                      

                      ---

                      • Subject: Re: Cities with Elevateds
                      • Message Number: 756181
                      • Posted by: Nathan
                      • Date: Fri Jun 27 20:33:02 1997
                        
                        In Reply to: [5]Re: Cities with Elevateds posted by Gart Jacobi on June 25, 1997 at 11:14:19: I was talking about lines that are almost completely elevated; of the systems I mentioned the vast majority of line IS elevated, with maybe a few short at grade and underground sections.
                        

                        ---

                        • Subject: Re: Cities with Elevateds
                        • Message Number: 756219
                        • Posted by: Brian
                        • Date: Sun Jun 29 19:28:46 1997
                          
                          In Reply to: [6]Re: Cities with Elevateds posted by Nathan on June 27, 1997 at 20:33:02: A perfect system that is all of the above is the Douglas (Cermak Branch) Branch of the Blue Line here in Chicago. It is in subway downtown, Elevated for almost it's entire route out of downtown and the last two stations are at ground level with grate crossings
                          

                          ---

                          • Subject: Re: Cities with Elevateds
                          • Message Number: 756226
                          • Posted by: Nathan
                          • Date: Sun Jun 29 22:04:01 1997
                            
                            In Reply to: [5]Re: Cities with Elevateds posted by Brian on June 29, 1997 at 19:28:46: Yes, I think I know of the line you're talking about (I still haven't recovered from the CTA's rampant colour coding...) but yeah, a grade crossing too? Groovy, that can't happen in Vancouver or Kuala Lumpur because no one has figured out a way of embedding LIM Reaction rails in the pavement without them being crushed...
                            

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Thread title: Re: Express C train (756045)
Started on Tue Jun 24 22:51:00 1997, by California Mike

---

• Subject: Re: Express C train
• Message Number: 756045
• Posted by: California Mike
• Date: Tue Jun 24 22:51:00 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Express C train? posted by John of Calgary on June 24, 1997 at 19:00:45: The way it was when I lived in New York was that double letters identified locals, and single letters identified expresses.
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: Express C train
  • Message Number: 756050
  • Posted by: John
  • Date: Wed Jun 25 00:02:19 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Express C train posted by California Mike on June 24, 1997 at 22:51:00: The double-letter system has been discontinued and all lines are now single-lettered, regardless of whether they are express or local. As for the C running express, this could have been due to track work, or a gap in A service that would force the C to substitute. Things like this occasionally happen. To me, it happened twice on the B when it ran local from 36th Street to DeKalb, and also on the F between Roosevelt Avenue and 71st-Continental.
    

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Thread title: Why not the LIRR?? (756053)
Started on Wed Jun 25 00:24:11 1997, by John

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• Subject: Why not the LIRR??
• Message Number: 756053
• Posted by: John
• Date: Wed Jun 25 00:24:11 1997
  
  If NJ Transit has thru-ticketing and scheduled connections to SEPTA trains at Trenton, why can't they have the same thing with the Long Island Railroad at Penn Station? Yesterday, I was on my way back from Long Beach and I was going to visit a reletive in Newark. I got off the LIRR at Penn Station and I had to go upstairs, walk to the NJ Transit area, purchase a ticket, and go back downstairs to board a train. Going to Philadelphia, I bought both tickets in Penn Station, took NJ Transit to Trenton, crossed the platform and got on the SEPTA train. Why can't NJ Transit at least have thru-ticketing with the LIRR?
  

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  • Subject: Re: Why not the LIRR??
  • Message Number: 756070
  • Posted by: Josh Caesar
  • Date: Wed Jun 25 09:23:29 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Why not the LIRR?? posted by John on June 25, 1997 at 00:24:11: I think they used to a long time ago. I think the connection with the LIRR at Penn Station is a bit more complex than the SEPTA connection at Trenton, Penn Station has many lines, Trenton really only has one coming in from each railroad. Scheduled connections at Penn Station would be pretty hard, especially since NJ Transit already has a schedule to keep to connect to Septa, to make scheduled connections to the LIRR, SEPTA schedules would probably have to be changed as well. Itl looks like a logistical mess. JC
    

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    • Subject: Re: Why not the LIRR??
    • Message Number: 756205
    • Posted by: subway-buff
    • Date: Sat Jun 28 21:48:40 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Why not the LIRR?? posted by John on June 25, 1997 at 00:24:11: Your idea of cross honoring NJT tand LIRR tickets sin the same manner as NJT and SEPTA sounds good. As a regular NJT rider there is one "catch" to the SEPTA tickets- The joint ticket is only for Center City Philadelphia. If you are going from New York Penn Station to Norristown you must change SEPTA trains in Center City Philadelphia (CCP(. Also, if you are getting off before CCP you can not buy a ticket from NJT but must buy a nother ticket at Trenton. Good idea though! Perhaps it can work from Penn to Jamaica! (But then won't NYCT get upset!)
      

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      • Subject: Re: Why not the LIRR??
      • Message Number: 756206
      • Posted by: subway-buff
      • Date: Sat Jun 28 22:00:22 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Why not the LIRR?? posted by John on June 25, 1997 at 00:24:11: This is a follow-up to my own response. I just sent an e-mail to NJT suggesting they cross ticket for LIRR to the LIRR Jamaica Station. If NJT responds-yes or no- I will post their reply.
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: Why not the LIRR??
        • Message Number: 756212
        • Posted by: Dave
        • Date: Sun Jun 29 07:26:26 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: Why not the LIRR?? posted by Josh Caesar on June 25, 1997 at 09:23:29: I think you're missing the point of the original post. It is talking about cross-railroad ticketing, not necessarily coordinated operation like SEPTA-NJT. Get off the train at Penn. Sta. then get on a NJT train. If you have to wait for the next train, so what? at least you don't have to stand on line to get a NJT ticket. The same idea should be extended to Metro North and ConnDOT trains, too.
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: Why not the LIRR??
          • Message Number: 756216
          • Posted by: Steve
          • Date: Sun Jun 29 11:11:14 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Why not the LIRR?? posted by John on June 25, 1997 at 00:24:11: Such a plan is feasible but is it necessary. Both railroads agree to sell combined tickets and at the end of the month they balance the books. In this age of computers, it's not all that difficult to do. The airlines have been doing it since foreve. I think you might get some opposition from the union representing the ticket agents though. On the other hand, unless trains from both railroads are permitted to traverse the other's ROW, we'd still have to change trains at Penn Station. Another track, another train and another conductor. Your idea only makes sense if the trip became seamless.
            

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Thread title: 2nd avenue elevated (756056)
Started on Wed Jun 25 01:23:59 1997, by Zack

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• Subject: 2nd avenue elevated
• Message Number: 756056
• Posted by: Zack
• Date: Wed Jun 25 01:23:59 1997
  
  How come the TA doesen build a new 2nd avenue elevated. but this time out of steel reniforced concrete like Vancouver B.C.'s sky train/New US Super Feeways. i think it would be a good idea little manitance becouse it would be concrete not steel and with thoes new R142,143 coming in to service the car sulppy would be good.
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: 2nd avenue elevated
  • Message Number: 756064
  • Posted by: Nathan
  • Date: Wed Jun 25 02:46:32 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]2nd avenue elevated posted by Zack on June 25, 1997 at 01:23:59: You say to build L sections like the ones used on the SkyTrain. Well, from personal experience, these structures do not rattle and amplify noise, which is nice on nearby residents. It would be an easy project, as the beams are prefabricated off site and transported to the construction area by flatbed truck ()Like i said before, the main thing about concrete guideways is that they don't shake like hell when a LIM powered train moving 110Km/h is running over them, besides, I like els because if you are driving with a pro-auto (die bastard!)/anti transit person, you can race the el, and here it always wins (not counting the times I've hidden the car keys from an auto crazed friend!)
    

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    • Subject: Re: 2nd avenue elevated
    • Message Number: 756083
    • Posted by: john zmijewski
    • Date: Wed Jun 25 14:59:47 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]2nd avenue elevated posted by Zack on June 25, 1997 at 01:23:59: it suck it is slow it blows
      

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      • Subject: Re: 2nd avenue elevated
      • Message Number: 756085
      • Posted by: M.J.S.
      • Date: Wed Jun 25 17:17:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]2nd avenue elevated posted by Zack on June 25, 1997 at 01:23:59: Please, PLEASE get a spell checker.
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: 2nd avenue elevated
        • Message Number: 756118
        • Posted by: Brian
        • Date: Thu Jun 26 12:49:30 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: 2nd avenue elevated posted by Nathan on June 25, 1997 at 02:46:32: It sounds like a great idea. I would be able to look at trains, instead of traffic jams, when looking out of my apartment. If this can be done relatively inexpensively, go for it. However, where would this run? Otherwise, at least build a light rail line on Second av., either as an el or on the street separated from cars. (My post at the top will tell you my two light rail plans)
          

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          • Subject: Re: 2nd avenue elevated
          • Message Number: 756133
          • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
          • Date: Thu Jun 26 17:12:01 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: 2nd avenue elevated posted by Brian on June 26, 1997 at 12:49:30: I have never heard a concrete deck structure that was quieter than an open deck structure!
            

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            • Subject: Re: 2nd avenue elevated
            • Message Number: 756188
            • Posted by: Nathan
            • Date: Sat Jun 28 01:29:36 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: 2nd avenue elevated posted by Gerry O'Regan on June 26, 1997 at 17:12:01: What do you mean, concrete deck over open deck. We're talking about open deck concrete! Agghhhh. WIth concrete you don't have the rattling associated with steel el structures.
              

              ---

              • Subject: Re: 2nd avenue elevated
              • Message Number: 756189
              • Posted by: Nathan
              • Date: Sat Jun 28 01:30:15 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]Re: 2nd avenue elevated posted by john zmijewski on June 25, 1997 at 14:59:47: What sux, what is slow, what blows????
                

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                • Subject: Re: 2nd avenue elevated
                • Message Number: 756225
                • Posted by: Steve
                • Date: Sun Jun 29 21:24:50 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [5]2nd avenue elevated posted by Zack on June 25, 1997 at 01:23:59: Once again - if the city/state has the money to build such a project, then it should be used to complete the 2nd Ave. Subway.
                  

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Thread title: Salaries (756060)
Started on Wed Jun 25 01:37:13 1997, by David L.

---

• Subject: Salaries
• Message Number: 756060
• Posted by: David L.
• Date: Wed Jun 25 01:37:13 1997
  
  This may be a stupid question, but I'm curious. How much money does a train engineer, a conductor, and a token booth clerk make annually?
  

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  • Subject: Re: Salaries
  • Message Number: 756099
  • Posted by: Jim
  • Date: Wed Jun 25 21:01:45 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Salaries posted by David L. on June 25, 1997 at 01:37:13: On the NYCT system, hourly wages range from $16.10 1/2 per hour to approximately $22.00 per hour fpr the hourly titles. Cleaners are at the lower end while Electronic Equipment Maintainers and Road Car Inspectors are at the high end. Of course, new hires come in at about 70% of those rates and get periodic increases. Also there are payments for night differential and holiday pay.
    

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Thread title: NYC Subway Service Changes (756069)
Started on Wed Jun 25 09:10:05 1997, by Todd Glickman

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• Subject: NYC Subway Service Changes
• Message Number: 756069
• Posted by: Todd Glickman
• Date: Wed Jun 25 09:10:05 1997
  
  Many have asked questions on this board about NYC Subway service changes. The TA folks (sorry for the old nomenclature, I think it still sounds good) have a web site which is updated weekly on Fridays -- it spells out service changes and diversions for the upcoming week. Even though I only travel to NYC a few times a month from my [now] home in Boston, it (1) helps me plan my trips and (2) alerts me to interesting "rides". http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/Subway/subsrvno.htm
  

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  • Subject: Re: NYC Subway Service Changes
  • Message Number: 756084
  • Posted by: Peter Rosa
  • Date: Wed Jun 25 16:11:29 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]NYC Subway Service Changes posted by Todd Glickman on June 25, 1997 at 09:10:05: [re MTA Web site listing service changes] I agree with you that the site does serve a useful purpose. What's really needed, however, is a better way of communicating unscheduled delays, re-routings etc. to riders. Station PA announcements are frequently (usually?) inaudible, and the booth clerks may not have much information themselves. I know there's *supposedly* a program in progress to upgrade the PA systems - I'll believe it when I see, er, hear it :-)
    

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    • Subject: Re: NYC Subway Service Changes
    • Message Number: 756086
    • Posted by: M.J.S.
    • Date: Wed Jun 25 17:22:27 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway Service Changes posted by Peter Rosa on June 25, 1997 at 16:11:29: The PA at Prospect Park D/Q and at Atlantic Ave. D/Q are great. I see new PAs going in a t Chambers/WTC A/C/E.
      

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      • Subject: Re: NYC Subway Service Changes
      • Message Number: 756087
      • Posted by: M.J.S.
      • Date: Wed Jun 25 17:22:31 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway Service Changes posted by Peter Rosa on June 25, 1997 at 16:11:29: The PA at Prospect Park D/Q and at Atlantic Ave. D/Q are great. I see new PAs going in at Chambers/WTC A/C/E.
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: NYC Subway Service Changes
        • Message Number: 756088
        • Posted by: M.J.S.
        • Date: Wed Jun 25 17:22:38 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway Service Changes posted by Peter Rosa on June 25, 1997 at 16:11:29: The PA at Prospect Park D/Q and at Atlantic Ave. D/Q are great. I see new PAs going in at Chambers/WTC A/C/E.
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: NYC Subway Service Changes
          • Message Number: 756104
          • Posted by: David L.
          • Date: Wed Jun 25 22:56:23 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: NYC Subway Service Changes posted by Peter Rosa on June 25, 1997 at 16:11:29: The PA system on the Queens Blvd line from Elmhurst Ave to 179 St are pretty good. They are all very new. In addition to hearing what they are saying, there is also a LCD display which displays what exactly is being said over the PA system. Right now they are still working on the PA system from Roosevelt Ave to Queens Plaza- the speakers and LCD displays are up but they aren't connected to the system yet.
            

            ---

            • Subject: Re: NYC Subway Service Changes
            • Message Number: 756135
            • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
            • Date: Thu Jun 26 17:18:18 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: NYC Subway Service Changes posted by M.J.S. on June 25, 1997 at 17:22:38: Every time I hear a PA announcer who mumbles I suggest that he/she get a job in NYC doing station announcements. Waadaaoorseessee = Watch the doors, please.
              

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Thread title: theGold Card (756072)
Started on Wed Jun 25 10:04:28 1997, by lou

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• Subject: theGold Card
• Message Number: 756072
• Posted by: lou
• Date: Wed Jun 25 10:04:28 1997
  
  how much does everybody think the Gold card is going to ,increase ridership???? I think its gonna boom!!! Anybody else???
  

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  • Subject: theGold Card
  • Message Number: 756073
  • Posted by: lou
  • Date: Wed Jun 25 10:04:32 1997
    
    how much does everybody think the Gold card is going to ,increase ridership???? I think its gonna boom!!! Anybody else???
    

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    • Subject: Re: theGold Card
    • Message Number: 756074
    • Posted by: Josh Caesar
    • Date: Wed Jun 25 10:50:52 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]theGold Card posted by lou on June 25, 1997 at 10:04:32: Oh yeah. The service increases due to demand produced by the free transfers will be incredible. Queens Surface Corporation has already hired 65 new bus drivers alone. I don't know the numbers for NYCT, but they must be up there as well.
      

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      • Subject: Re: theGold Card
      • Message Number: 756079
      • Posted by: Wayne Johnson
      • Date: Wed Jun 25 13:36:11 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]theGold Card posted by lou on June 25, 1997 at 10:04:28: I have one dispite that fact that I now reside in Maryland and I have a car. It's great to have when I come into NYC and need to ride the subway or bus.
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: theGold Card
        • Message Number: 756094
        • Posted by: John of Calgary
        • Date: Wed Jun 25 19:20:18 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]theGold Card posted by lou on June 25, 1997 at 10:04:28: Well, what the darn is the deal with these MetroCard Gold? What does it do? Huh? What's the dif from the blue Metrocard?
          

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          • Subject: Re: theGold Card
          • Message Number: 756100
          • Posted by: Andrew Huie
          • Date: Wed Jun 25 21:02:09 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: theGold Card posted by John of Calgary on June 25, 1997 at 19:20:18: AFAIK, I think the new card incorporates one or two features that were probably added on after the blue cards were issued-for instance, up to 4 free transfers per card. Remember when the transit police threw a fit because someone used their (blue) card to let someone else through a turnstile? I think someone then realized that a person might use their own card to let multiple people have free transfers - say, a family for instance. The blue cards, as designed probably couldn't handle it, so they issued the gold cards to distinguish the new "version".
            

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Thread title: Re: Express m trains (756081)
Started on Wed Jun 25 14:58:01 1997, by john zmijewski

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• Subject: Re: Express m trains
• Message Number: 756081
• Posted by: john zmijewski
• Date: Wed Jun 25 14:58:01 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: Express C train? posted by John of Calgary on June 24, 1997 at 19:02:39: is too fast and it is diry and late
  

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  • Subject: Re: Express m trains
  • Message Number: 756082
  • Posted by: john zmijewski
  • Date: Wed Jun 25 14:58:10 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: Express C train? posted by John of Calgary on June 24, 1997 at 19:02:39: is too fast and it is diry and late
    

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Thread title: Electrical Power Dept. Power Substations. (756098)
Started on Wed Jun 25 21:00:32 1997, by System Operator

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• Subject: Electrical Power Dept. Power Substations.
• Message Number: 756098
• Posted by: System Operator
• Date: Wed Jun 25 21:00:32 1997
  
  Any body have any stories to tell about Operations and Maintenance of Power Substations. I have 33 years on the job with the NYC Transit, I started working at Parkville S/S Brooklyn,in 1964. I seen the Rotaries at thier finest hour to thier replacement with Solid State Rectifiers. From local control at the substation level to remote operation from the Power Control Center at midtown NYC. All comments are welcome.
  

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  • Subject: Re: Electrical Power Dept. Power Substations.
  • Message Number: 756101
  • Posted by: Steve
  • Date: Wed Jun 25 21:03:48 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Electrical Power Dept. Power Substations. posted by System Operator on June 25, 1997 at 21:00:32: 33 years on the job ??? MORE POWER TO YOU......
    

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Thread title: TTC and STCUM (Montreal and Toronto subway systems) (756106)
Started on Thu Jun 26 00:42:54 1997, by Brian

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• Subject: TTC and STCUM (Montreal and Toronto subway systems)
• Message Number: 756106
• Posted by: Brian
• Date: Thu Jun 26 00:42:54 1997
  
  I have been away for a week, in Montreal and Toronto. I love both the cities, both are much nicer than any US city. The people in both cities are very nice. About the transit systems, I have to say that the STCUM system is not very efficient. Are they still running the origional cars? The only thing I like about them is that some of them have a news ticker, which helps pass the time. Also, why do they use rubber tires? It is the only major system in the world that is completely underground. This makes it very difficult to build anything new in the system. I also hear they are falling apart, with problems such as leaks. The subways also usually left me quite far from where I wanted to go, and the buses, with few exceptions run rarely. The people only pay 45% of the system's funds, which is what it should be. More should be available at those fares with that funding (Although the $12 3 day pass was a great bargain). Desp
  

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  • Subject: Re: TTC and STCUM (Montreal and Toronto subway systems)
  • Message Number: 756114
  • Posted by: Sam
  • Date: Thu Jun 26 03:53:32 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]TTC and STCUM (Montreal and Toronto subway systems) posted by Brian on June 26, 1997 at 00:42:54: The nicest cars I've been on are in Barcelona. The State-owned Railway de Catalunya has easy-back, upholstered seats for trips that take no more than 20-30 minutes to complete. Another railway, RENFE has easy-backs too. The 5 lined-subway is mostly air conditioned and automated so far as announcing stops. Signs are clear. However, even at connecting stations, lines are miles apart. Whereas in New York the Lex and Flushing lines are on top of each other, lineás 1 and 3 (red and green) are at least two long blocks apart underground at such key stations as Plaça de Espanya and Plaça de Catalunya. It makes a trip longer. Also, to transfer between rail companies you have to buy another ticket or buy a daily ticket for 550 ptas.
    

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    • Subject: Re: TTC and STCUM (Montreal and Toronto subway systems)
    • Message Number: 756122
    • Posted by: Dan Casey
    • Date: Thu Jun 26 14:15:38 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]TTC and STCUM (Montreal and Toronto subway systems) posted by Brian on June 26, 1997 at 00:42:54: Running below ground means that you don't have to handle winter weather, which is no small benefit in Montreal. Try waiting on an unheated el platform in Chicago and you'll see what I mean. Even with cutbacks and whatnot, the Metro is far from falling apart; it's quite well maintained by American standards. As for leaks, they'll happen anytime an underground structure reaches a certain age. It's not designed as a New York-style system that will get you absolutely everywhere, but more along the lines of the DC Metro; a more regional system that ties together large chunks of the city and serves major destinations. Not a good system for short hops, but fast and smooth for long distances. Bus connections are excellent and frequent, in my experience. It's not the most baroque transit system in the world, and its aesthetics leave something to be desired, but it provides better service than you'll find most places. -Dan Casey
      

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      • Subject: Re: TTC and STCUM (Montreal and Toronto subway systems)
      • Message Number: 756126
      • Posted by: Bingo
      • Date: Thu Jun 26 15:38:47 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]TTC and STCUM (Montreal and Toronto subway systems) posted by Brian on June 26, 1997 at 00:42:54: Urbain-Montreal also has some of the nicest station architecture I have seen since I went to Paris. You may recall Angrignon, Verdun and Jean-Talon stations, which are my favorites. The system has not bought new stock since 1973 ( the line opened in 1966 ) They were supposed to in 1983, but that fell through. For what reason, I haven't a clue, but I can tell you this. They need new stock badly, really really badly (although I wouldn't say that the system is falling apart. Far from it, from what I've seen of certain unnameable MTA stations) Toronto and Montreal also have the cheapest CD's in North America. I hope you took advantage of this during your visit.
        

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        • Subject: Re: TTC and STCUM (Montreal and Toronto subway systems)
        • Message Number: 756134
        • Posted by: Brian
        • Date: Thu Jun 26 17:17:49 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: TTC and STCUM (Montreal and Toronto subway systems) posted by Dan Casey on June 26, 1997 at 14:15:38: Yes, I do understand the advantage of avoiding the snow, but would you rather have an el or no train?
          

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Thread title: Re: TTC and STCUM (This is the Toronto one) (756107)
Started on Thu Jun 26 00:49:00 1997, by Brian

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• Subject: Re: TTC and STCUM (This is the Toronto one)
• Message Number: 756107
• Posted by: Brian
• Date: Thu Jun 26 00:49:00 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]TTC and STCUM (Montreal and Toronto subway systems) posted by Brian on June 26, 1997 at 00:42:54: Sorry, I hit the post button by accident. The Toronto system is much more efficient. Despite only two lines, it took me where I wanted to go, and the service is very frequent. Also, it is much quieter than the rubber tires in Montreal. The trolleys and buses are also very efficient, and run often. Amazingly, this is done with almost no state funding, as the riders pay 80%.
  

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  • Subject: Re: TTC and STCUM (This is the Toronto one)
  • Message Number: 756178
  • Posted by: Nathan
  • Date: Fri Jun 27 20:28:45 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Re: TTC and STCUM (This is the Toronto one) posted by Brian on June 26, 1997 at 00:49:00: 3 lines (Scarberia RT, does that count?). Yes, the Toronto system is very effective and efficient. Very little funding comes from the government, which is good as the TTC was able to adapt to Mike Harris' anti transit budgets, and come out (somewhat) on top. I do think that the biggest mistake was cancelling (I would rather say/hope, postponing) work on the Eglinton subway, the airport needs a subway connection desperately. It is a model system indeed.
    

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    • Subject: Re: TTC and STCUM (This is the Toronto one)
    • Message Number: 756195
    • Posted by: Bingo
    • Date: Sat Jun 28 13:30:41 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: TTC and STCUM (This is the Toronto one) posted by Nathan on June 27, 1997 at 20:28:45: 1) Not really (Scarborough RT) 2) You know, we're still footing the bill for the B-D line! 3) The Eglinton line has been shelved, and WILL be completed in the future. (It may be 2 years, 4, maybe even 10) It's a shame, because the line is still badly needed. There hasn't been any major development in West Toronto for 2 decades now. The provincial gov't still doesn't have enough $$$, even if Mike Harris were to be mysteriously lynched outside Queens Park... 4) I wanted the Queen subway, but that was an idea shot dead about 50 years ago. They have these old underground caves which were to be the starting point for an underground streetcar line, but that fell through as well.
      

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Thread title: R110 a&b-Still in operation on same line? (756116)
Started on Thu Jun 26 10:26:53 1997, by Nick

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• Subject: R110 a&b-Still in operation on same line?
• Message Number: 756116
• Posted by: Nick
• Date: Thu Jun 26 10:26:53 1997
  
  Just one more question about these cars! Is the r110a still running as the #2, and is the R110b still the A train? If not, which line(s) are they running on, if their still running at all. Also, do they operate on a regular basis? THANK YOU-NICK
  

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  • Subject: R110 a&b-Still in operation on same line?
  • Message Number: 756117
  • Posted by: Nick
  • Date: Thu Jun 26 10:27:13 1997
    
    Just one more question about these cars! Is the r110a still running as the #2, and is the R110b still the A train? If not, which line(s) are they running on, if their still running at all. Also, do they operate on a regular basis? THANK YOU-NICK
    

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    • Subject: Re: R110 a&b-Still in operation on same line?
    • Message Number: 756120
    • Posted by: John
    • Date: Thu Jun 26 14:05:17 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]R110 a&b-Still in operation on same line? posted by Nick on June 26, 1997 at 10:27:13: I have never seen these cars in service, but I assume that they are still in service. I think they are used only during the rush hours and on the #2 and A, but I'm not sure about any other lines.
      

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      • Subject: Re: R110 a&b-Still in operation on same line?
      • Message Number: 756137
      • Posted by: charles
      • Date: Thu Jun 26 19:32:05 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]R110 a&b-Still in operation on same line? posted by Nick on June 26, 1997 at 10:27:13: Both of the trains are in service. They operate during non-rush hours also but to my knowledge not on weekends WHEN THEY ARE CAPABLE OF SERVICE. I suggest you ask tower operator, they would know.
        

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        • Subject: Re: R110 a&b-Still in operation on same line?
        • Message Number: 756187
        • Posted by: Nathan
        • Date: Sat Jun 28 01:26:26 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: R110 a&b-Still in operation on same line? posted by charles on June 26, 1997 at 19:32:05: You say they operate during non-peak times, are you saying that they operate during off periods and peak periods, or are you saying they do not operate during peak periods at all. WHY??
          

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          • Subject: Re: R110 a&b-Still in operation on same line?
          • Message Number: 756193
          • Posted by: Charles
          • Date: Sat Jun 28 09:28:28 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: R110 a&b-Still in operation on same line? posted by Nathan on June 28, 1997 at 01:26:26: The R110A and B both operate during rush and non rush hours. I do not think that they are in late-night operation. What I meant by WHEN THEY ARE IN SERVICE is that the R110A is taken out of service very frequently. The R110B is taken out but not as often. There is no official reason for this.
            

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Thread title: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea (756119)
Started on Thu Jun 26 13:10:48 1997, by Brian

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• Subject: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea
• Message Number: 756119
• Posted by: Brian
• Date: Thu Jun 26 13:10:48 1997
  
  I have an idea for a Light Rail line to be run on 2nd Av., instead of the 2nd Av. subway, which will never happen. Note: Transfers to other lines are in parentheses. Via elevated tracks Yankee Stadium to 23rd st. and 12th Av. (Chelsea Piers) It would run down 161st St to 3rd Av from River Av. (C,D,4). Then run it down 3rd Av., stopping at 161st, 149th,(2 5) and 138th (6). Then it would cross the river on the 3rd Av. bridge, and go over to Second Av. It would stop at 125th, 116th, 106th, 96th, 86th, 79th, 72nd, 59th, 50th, and 42nd on Second Av. Build a branch over to first Av. to go past the UN, stopping in front of it before meeting the 2nd Av. branch at 41st and 2nd. After this, it would go down 41st, stopping at Lexington (4,5,6,7,S), 6th (B,D,F,Q,7), 8th (1,2,3,9,7,S,N,R,A,C,E), and 10th. Then it would go down 11th, stopping at the Javits Center at 38th, 34th, and 23rd. This would allow a high speed second Av. line, at a lower cost than the subway. Also, light rail is generally quiet, and concrete els make it very quiet to begin with. Also, this would replace the 42nd St. trolley idea.
  

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  • Subject: Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea
  • Message Number: 756186
  • Posted by: Nathan
  • Date: Sat Jun 28 01:23:40 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]2nd Av. Light Rail idea posted by Brian on June 26, 1997 at 13:10:48: But would the Light Rail have the capacity to serve this area? Would the LRT run on a reserved right of way or be street running? Why not elevate the LRT?
    

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    • Subject: Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea
    • Message Number: 756201
    • Posted by: Brian
    • Date: Sat Jun 28 18:40:24 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea posted by Nathan on June 28, 1997 at 01:23:40: Preferably, run it as an el. Otherwise, run it on the street, closing off two lanes for two tracks, and giving trolleys the right of way with traffic lights. Also, build the northbound branch on 1st Av. because then it will be going in the same direction as the traffic, making it easier to adjust the lights to give the trolleys the right of way. The track closest to the sidewalk would be for a local trolley, which would replace the bus, stopping every three or four blocks. The other track would stop at major streets and other attractions. It would be a two track line on 41st, and from 41st to 23rd, the northbound track will travel on 10th Av., while the southbound track would travel on 11th. In The Bronx, run it as a two track line.
      

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      • Subject: Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea
      • Message Number: 756224
      • Posted by: Steve
      • Date: Sun Jun 29 21:22:16 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]2nd Av. Light Rail idea posted by Brian on June 26, 1997 at 13:10:48: Great idea ! Just one thing though. If the city was able to build such a project, don't you think the money would be better spent completing the 2nd avenue subway?
        

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        • Subject: Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea
        • Message Number: 756232
        • Posted by: Brian
        • Date: Sun Jun 29 23:37:02 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea posted by Steve on June 29, 1997 at 21:22:16: The only reason for this idea is that it would be easier, and cheaper.
          

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          • Subject: Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea
          • Message Number: 756248
          • Posted by: Andrew Byler
          • Date: Mon Jun 30 22:24:34 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea posted by Brian on June 29, 1997 at 23:37:02: Easier and Cheaper????? In New York? A trolley on either of these streets (1st and 2nd) would run into the same problems that buses do now with the supposed "dedicated" bus lanes. Trucks parked on their right of way, construction somewhere along the street blocking the right of way, cars parked on the right of way etc. There is no possible way that a good chunk of the street could actually be taken away and made so that vehicles couldn't get on it, because that would be a fire and emergency hazard. The easiest and cheapest way to improve traffic in New York would be to enforce existing laws. This would take some new Tow trucks and a new set of police to enforce traffic rules. Suggested victims would be double parkers, all delivery trucks illegally parked (which is most of the time it seems), people parked in bus lanes or lanes which are supposedly "No stopping" during rush hour or all day (which is an all too common occurance which renders the curb lane essentially useless during rush hour), and of course a rampant vicious persectuion of taxi drivers who clearly have no idea of American traffic laws and think they are still in New Delhi (I've been there and seen how you guys drive - its terrible - much worse than New York), oh and one other thing, big tickets for people making turns from the middle of the street (you idiots who turn left from the 3rd lane from the curb knwo who you are). After this very thorough and vicious persecution of road menaces, undoubtedtly New York's streets would flow smoother - and more importantly, many bad drivers would have been driven into the subways, as would many taxi riders displaced after the necessary culling of the ignorant morons driving the yellow machines who think that the dashed lines marking lanes mean "drive over this line" and who have trouble figuring out how to negotiate streets which are nearly all numbered. Then .... after all of this, the greater number of subway riders would justify the expansions we all want and know are needed (2nd Ave., outer Brooklyn and Queens, lower east Bronx, 125th St. crosstown, Chelsea loop, etc., etc.), and the lesser number of drivers would give us the street space we need for construction. So that's my two cents. Andy
            

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            • Subject: Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea
            • Message Number: 756254
            • Posted by: Brian
            • Date: Tue Jul 1 11:03:43 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea posted by Andrew Byler on June 30, 1997 at 22:24:34: Build the tracks in a way that the cars can't get on. For one, put up a gate between the street lanes and trolley lanes. Also, build the tracks on top of the street, not into the street like many trolleys, so cars cannot go in these lanes anyway. At intersections, the gate will be stopped, and the tracks built into the street, so cars can turn.
              

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              • Subject: Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea
              • Message Number: 756261
              • Posted by: Gary Jacobi
              • Date: Tue Jul 1 12:29:19 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea posted by Brian on July 01, 1997 at 11:03:43: Light Rail is a half-assed fix for half-assed cities. I know from living in one and visiting four or five others. The only good thing I can say about these cities decisions is thank God they didn't make the egotistic mistake of going . New York has a fantastic system which it could never afford to build today. The level of service provided by light rail is much closer to bus lines than to subways, and New Yorkers would NOT be impressed.
                

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                • Subject: Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea
                • Message Number: 756274
                • Posted by: Nathan
                • Date: Tue Jul 1 18:42:03 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [5]Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea posted by Gary Jacobi on July 01, 1997 at 12:29:19: What city do you live in that has Light Rail? Ok, here is MY 2 cents: Perhaps light rail technology can be used, but not street running. Elevate the line, but not with traditional el structures. Use the new "T" sype supports: a single pier that supports 2 tracks. The single pier would require the width of approximately 1 lane of traffic. (if the line is run down the center of the road). The other thing that could be done would not require any roadspace (albeit being more expensive) would be to have the elevated guideway running down the center of the street, and have support columns on the sidewalk. 2 vertical support piers on opposite sides of the road would support a horizontal beam (all beams and piers are made of concrete) which would thus support the guideway/track. A drawback of this design is the large shadows it would produce, but all concrete piers and beams would be prefabricated off-site and erected during the wee hours of the morning. Otherwise, traditional heavy rail subway would be the only alternative.
                  

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                  • Subject: Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea
                  • Message Number: 756283
                  • Posted by: Brian
                  • Date: Tue Jul 1 22:21:42 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [6]Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea posted by Nathan on July 01, 1997 at 18:42:03: Ideally, it would be run as an el. However, it would probably be cheaper to build the tracks on the street, with a gate blocking the traffic from entering the tracks. The tracks could just be put down, although they would need to be built into the street at intersections. Also, it would run with the traffic, with the downtown on 2nd, and uptown on 1st. Also, this would be done between 23rd and 42nd on 10th and 11th.
                    

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                    • Subject: Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea
                    • Message Number: 756346
                    • Posted by: Andrew Byler
                    • Date: Thu Jul 3 12:42:36 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [6]Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea posted by Brian on July 01, 1997 at 22:21:42: Some of you just don't seem to get it. If you reserve a right of way on the curb of 2nd and 1st Aves., you very negatively impact the ability of hundreds of businesses to receive deliveries. You also create a fire hazard, because ballast construction track is inacessible to fire trucks. Having the live wires near the buildings also does no good for the fire fighters. If you don't make open construction ballasted track, you run the 100% probable risk of having the line blocked by taxis, cars, trucks, etc. who think it is their god given right to swerve across all lanes of traffic to turn and double park. This defeats the whole notion of a reserved right of way. If you run the track down the middle of the street, any semblance of fluidity to the traffic which now exists will be lost, because now traffic will be unable to cross from one side of the street to the other. This will cause all sorts of hassles in temrs of turning, moving around stopped cars, etc. Further, resignalling the lights to be triggered by trolleys destroys one of the few good things about New York traffic - the synchronized lights ont he North-South streets, which allow for a much higher traffic capacity than would attain under a scheme with a Light Rail line running down the street. An elevated line is also incredibly stupid. Property values are high along 2nd and 3rd Aves., because els were ripped down. These were not fashionable places to live along until that occurred. Putting an el back in defeats the entire purpose of having ripped it down in the first place. It will throw the street into darkness much worse than it is now from the highrises. Further, the support pillars are an obstacle to traffic and *will* cause numerous wrecks. The whole reason els are ripped down and placed in subways is to counter all of these problems. Finally, millions of the taxpayers dollars have been spent creating large unused chunks of the 2nd Ave. Subway. From north to south, money has been spent buying the Westchester line right of way (currently unused) from 180th St. to 132nd St. in the South Bronx; building unused tunnels from 121st St. to 110th St., 106th St. to 98th St., a flying juntion at 63rd St., building the 63rd St. tunnel all the way to 7th Ave. to allow connections with the express tracks there, 9th St. to 2nd St., over the 2nd Ave. F Station, building the Chrysite St. Connection in a fashion compatible with the proposed subway, and under the Manhattan Bridge Plaza in Manhattan. Also, money has been spent preparing final engineering plans for the entire subway, and planning the conversion of the Dyre Ave. line. And lastly, the newer subway cars have been purposely built more expensively at higher standards to be able to operate at 70 or 75 mph speeds on the 2nd Ave line and the 63rd St.-Queensbridge-Archer Ave. lines. To now throw all this investment away for a slow technology which will increase the surface chaos is ludicrous even by New York standards. What is discouraging is that seemingly intelligent politicians (or is that an oxymoron) and community "activists" take stupid proposals like this seriously enough to fund studies of them, when the best solution is not merely already known, but already designed and partially built. Andy
                      

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                      • Subject: Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea
                      • Message Number: 756359
                      • Posted by: Nathan
                      • Date: Thu Jul 3 17:20:00 1997
                        
                        In Reply to: [5]Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea posted by Andrew Byler on July 03, 1997 at 12:42:36: The pillars would not be sticking out of the road, meaning drivers would have to swerve whenever there was a pillar, but one lane of traffic would have to become a median, raised (about a foot) above the roadway and have the piers on that. But no, I have never heard of drivers in miami hitting pillars...
                        

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                        • Subject: Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea
                        • Message Number: 756360
                        • Posted by: Bingo
                        • Date: Thu Jul 3 17:20:37 1997
                          
                          In Reply to: [5]Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea posted by Nathan on July 01, 1997 at 18:42:03: A drawback to that idea is that it would not meet the code for earthquakes and floods.
                          

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                          • Subject: Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea
                          • Message Number: 756361
                          • Posted by: Nathan
                          • Date: Thu Jul 3 17:20:44 1997
                            
                            In Reply to: [5]Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea posted by Andrew Byler on July 03, 1997 at 12:42:36: The pillars would not be sticking out of the road, meaning drivers would have to swerve whenever there was a pillar, but one lane of traffic would have to become a median, raised (about a foot) above the roadway and have the piers on that. But no, I have never heard of drivers in miami hitting pillars... But no, it would be best to use subway technology.
                            

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                            • Subject: Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea
                            • Message Number: 756391
                            • Posted by: Nathan
                            • Date: Fri Jul 4 19:43:20 1997
                              
                              In Reply to: [5]Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea posted by Bingo on July 03, 1997 at 17:20:37: No, actually it would. This type of beam is pretty much earth quake safe (hopefully I won't have to retract that if we get a big earthquake in the Pacific North West...) but yes, they conform to some of the most stringent earth quake safe guidelines...
                              

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                              • Subject: Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea
                              • Message Number: 756395
                              • Posted by: Mark Greenwald
                              • Date: Fri Jul 4 23:35:26 1997
                                
                                In Reply to: [6]Re: 2nd Av. Light Rail idea posted by Nathan on July 01, 1997 at 18:42:03: And here is my 2 cents worth also-----Being a native of the Baltimore Washington area---I have seen the benefits of both heavy rail (DC & Balto.) and Light Rail (Central Rail Line running north-south through downtown Baltimore) In Baltimore, the only reason the light rail line even exists is because of cost---In 1971, an entire heavy rail system was designed for the Balto. metro area but was later shelved due to cost and the liabilty of being forced to donate to the DC Metro from Maryland's share of the funds. If you were to notice, the southern portion of the LRT runs the exact route of what would have been the South Line of the Metro and the northern portion runs parrallel to what would have been the North Line. Baltimore needed mass transportation in these corridors and light rail seemed like a quick & cheap way to provide it, BUT, the only problem that I've noticed is that it takes a long time to get downtown, you can't move at the speed that heavy-rail can--it gets frustrating, plus, once downtown, you are running down the middle of Howard St, sharing it with auto & bus traffic & subjected to traffic signals like ordinary traffic--very time consuming. In the end, I like light rail, it's better than nothing but heavy-rail is by far better, if given the opertunity---Oh, and by the way, the Baltimore Metro line running from Owings Mills to Johns Hopkins is the only surviving portion of the 5-line system designed in '71.
                                

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Thread title: 9th Ave. Elevated (756124)
Started on Thu Jun 26 14:24:16 1997, by Timothy

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• Subject: 9th Ave. Elevated
• Message Number: 756124
• Posted by: Timothy
• Date: Thu Jun 26 14:24:16 1997
  
  Does anyone know if there are any books available on the 9th Ave. Elevated? I do own books on the 2nd and 3rd Ave. Els, but haven't seen any on the 6th or 9th Ave. Els. Also, Where can I get photos of 9th Ave. El stations? I heard that the stations were very ornate, similar to the ones on the 3rd Ave. El.
  

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  • Subject: Re: 9th Ave. Elevated
  • Message Number: 756183
  • Posted by: Steve
  • Date: Fri Jun 27 21:47:30 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]9th Ave. Elevated posted by Timothy on June 26, 1997 at 14:24:16: "The Tracks of New York" #3 has some about the 6th & 9th Ave Els.
    

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    • Subject: Re: 9th Ave. Elevated
    • Message Number: 756197
    • Posted by: Gary Jacobi
    • Date: Sat Jun 28 16:50:35 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]9th Ave. Elevated posted by Timothy on June 26, 1997 at 14:24:16: Many of the photos I have seen of the Ninth Avenue El are of the original cable drawn line, and I'm not sure how much of that structure was able to be incorporated into the Steam powered conversion.
      

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Thread title: Re: Cities with Elevateds (correction for Miami) (756136)
Started on Thu Jun 26 19:30:31 1997, by Andrew Byler

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• Subject: Re: Cities with Elevateds (correction for Miami)
• Message Number: 756136
• Posted by: Andrew Byler
• Date: Thu Jun 26 19:30:31 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Cities with Elevateds posted by Andrew Byler on June 25, 1997 at 21:45:53: Actually, i decided my comments need ammending. Of allt he new systems built, one should qualify as a bonafide el - the Miami line. Although it is of more mofern concrete construction, it still runs over the streets, unlike the short elevated sections in places like Washington, which are not comparable to a traditional el. Andy
  

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Thread title: Coney Island Yard (756144)
Started on Thu Jun 26 20:42:07 1997, by John of Calgary

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• Subject: Coney Island Yard
• Message Number: 756144
• Posted by: John of Calgary
• Date: Thu Jun 26 20:42:07 1997
  
  How does the SIRT trains get from the St. George Ferry Terminal Station to the Coney Island Shop?
  

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Thread title: South Ferry (756146)
Started on Thu Jun 26 21:23:56 1997, by John of Calgary

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• Subject: South Ferry
• Message Number: 756146
• Posted by: John of Calgary
• Date: Thu Jun 26 21:23:56 1997
  
  Can anyone answer this question: Is South Ferry a loop? Like, when the 1 or the 9 arrives at South Ferry, it drops off and picks up at the same platform, right? And then the trains start their journey back to the Bronx?
  

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  • Subject: Re: South Ferry
  • Message Number: 756148
  • Posted by: David L.
  • Date: Thu Jun 26 23:16:37 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]South Ferry posted by John of Calgary on June 26, 1997 at 21:23:56: Yes, South Ferry is a loop. It drops and loads passengers on the same platform. But that platform is not for a full length car. So only the first half of the train unloads. People in the last half of the train have to walk through the cars in order to get to the front, and get off.
    

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    • Subject: Re: South Ferry
    • Message Number: 756165
    • Posted by: Michael Berson
    • Date: Fri Jun 27 13:56:05 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Re: South Ferry posted by David L. on June 26, 1997 at 23:16:37: Do they switch to another Motorman at South Ferry or does the same train operator take the train back to the Bronx?? Mike
      

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      • Subject: Re: South Ferry
      • Message Number: 756168
      • Posted by: Peter Rosa
      • Date: Fri Jun 27 16:00:41 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: South Ferry posted by David L. on June 26, 1997 at 23:16:37: The 1 train uses the "outer" loop at South Ferry. There is also an "inner loop," visible as arched openings in the wall, which was originally designed as a turnaround for East Side IRT trains. Until about 20 years ago, the outer loop was in revenue service for a shuttle train to Bowling Green. Today it's used only for turning the 5 train.
        

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        • Subject: Re: South Ferry
        • Message Number: 756169
        • Posted by: Philip Ng
        • Date: Fri Jun 27 16:54:48 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]Re: South Ferry posted by Michael Berson on June 27, 1997 at 13:56:05: I believe that the INNER loop was used as the renevue platform for the shuttle that ran to Bowling Green. The OUTER loop platform was used to turn the Seventh avenue (1,9) and the Lexington Avenue (5) trains.
          

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          • Subject: Re: South Ferry
          • Message Number: 756192
          • Posted by: RAC93
          • Date: Sat Jun 28 02:19:23 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: South Ferry posted by Philip Ng on June 27, 1997 at 16:54:48: I think that phillip is right. If you check the track maps at Mr. Pirmann's site you will see that the smaller inner loop ran the shuttle to bowling green. There is a game called BAHN 3.40 which is more like a simulator that is available in the transfer station. There are a few track layouts which depict the various trackworks. They may not be 100% but they are nice to look at. RAC93
            

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            • Subject: Re: South Ferry
            • Message Number: 756237
            • Posted by: Mark S Feinman
            • Date: Mon Jun 30 12:56:51 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: South Ferry posted by Michael Berson on June 27, 1997 at 13:56:05: IIRC, crew changes occur on the Northbound platform at Chambers Street. --Mark
              

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              • Subject: Re: South Ferry
              • Message Number: 756242
              • Posted by: M.J.S.
              • Date: Mon Jun 30 14:25:53 1997
                
                In Reply to: [6]Re: South Ferry posted by Mark S Feinman on June 30, 1997 at 12:56:51: I've never seen the crew change at Chambers Street, and they don't stay in the station long enough to facilitate it, unlike South Ferry.
                

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                • Subject: Re: South Ferry
                • Message Number: 756271
                • Posted by: Lou
                • Date: Tue Jul 1 16:17:04 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [6]Re: South Ferry posted by Philip Ng on June 27, 1997 at 16:54:48: TODAY the inner loop is used to turn #5 trains. It used to be for the shuttle to Bowling Green. #1/9 run on the outer loop.
                  

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Thread title: Old New York Subway Routings (756147)
Started on Thu Jun 26 21:25:32 1997, by California Mike

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• Subject: Old New York Subway Routings
• Message Number: 756147
• Posted by: California Mike
• Date: Thu Jun 26 21:25:32 1997
  
  I am fascinated by routings used in NYC Subway before my time, the early 50's. For instance, there used to be a HH from Court St. in Brooklyn to Hoyt-Schermerhorn St. Can any one tell me how I can get this kind of information?
  

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  • Subject: Re: Old New York Subway Routings
  • Message Number: 756158
  • Posted by: David Pirmann
  • Date: Fri Jun 27 10:21:38 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Old New York Subway Routings posted by California Mike on June 26, 1997 at 21:25:32: See: [7]http://www.nycsubway.org/news/nyc/routes.html and [8]http://www.nycsubway.org/news/nyc/1955exp.html for some details...
    

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    • Subject: Re: Old New York Subway Routings
    • Message Number: 756174
    • Posted by: Zack
    • Date: Fri Jun 27 20:00:31 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]Old New York Subway Routings posted by California Mike on June 26, 1997 at 21:25:32: you might want to try to contact the NYCTA, they will probally have information that you can retreve about the subways of the past
      

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Thread title: Staten Island connection (756150)
Started on Fri Jun 27 00:03:29 1997, by David L.

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• Subject: Staten Island connection
• Message Number: 756150
• Posted by: David L.
• Date: Fri Jun 27 00:03:29 1997
  
  Why didn't the TA Ever build a subway connection between Brooklyn and S.I., or Manhattan and S.I.?
  

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  • Subject: Re: Staten Island connection
  • Message Number: 756154
  • Posted by: RAC93
  • Date: Fri Jun 27 06:54:31 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Staten Island connection posted by David L. on June 27, 1997 at 00:03:29: Money, not enough of it... I'm sure. I think they were going to use the "R" line around the 95th st. terminal station in Brooklyn to connect under or on the veranzano bridge. ( I probably misspelled veranzanno - sorry I live in L.A. and last time I went to NYC was in '91). another possibility is the opening after 59th st. when the "N" train heads splits from the "R". I think that they use barges or trucks to move the train cars to the major yards for repairs. I think that the 207th yard in manhatten has a dock for the train barges. I heard a rumor that on the south brooklyn railway, there is also a dock for train barges. I think that the S.B. railway still connects with the "B" line after 36th st, going towards 9th ave. If anyone knows more about this, I would like to know too... PEACE! ! !
    

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    • Subject: Re: Staten Island connection
    • Message Number: 756155
    • Posted by: Charles Fiori
    • Date: Fri Jun 27 08:23:56 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Staten Island connection posted by RAC93 on June 27, 1997 at 06:54:31: Some weeks back, someone had the same question. Off the south end of the southbound plat at 59&4, you can see a ramp which would have led to the underwater connection to Staten Island. As for heavy maintenance on the SIRTOA R-44s, I thought that was done at St. George
      

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      • Subject: Re: Staten Island connection
      • Message Number: 756159
      • Posted by: Lou
      • Date: Fri Jun 27 10:45:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Staten Island connection posted by David L. on June 27, 1997 at 00:03:29: This was actually part of the old Dual Contracts plan of the 1910's.For various reasons,politics,money,etc it never got done...But this is why the B&O electrified theline in the 20's and ordered cars that could've (and actually did!) run on the BMT.
        

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        • Subject: Re: Staten Island connection
        • Message Number: 756160
        • Posted by: Lou
        • Date: Fri Jun 27 12:02:32 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Staten Island connection posted by David L. on June 27, 1997 at 00:03:29: This was one of the original plans of the Dual Contracts of the 1910's. It never got done because of the usual reeasons;i.e. money,politics, etc. Brian Cudahy (in "Under the Sidewalks...") Blames Mayor John Hylan, wether this is true or not I don't know!!
          

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          • Subject: Re: Staten Island connection
          • Message Number: 756170
          • Posted by: Bill
          • Date: Fri Jun 27 17:12:56 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Staten Island connection posted by David L. on June 27, 1997 at 00:03:29: They did start to dig a shaft for the tunnel to S.I. There is a concret slab at 68 street and Shore Road right next the Belt Parkway. I think it is filled in, but there is a shaft.
            

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            • Subject: Re: Staten Island connection
            • Message Number: 756171
            • Posted by: Bob Andersen
            • Date: Fri Jun 27 18:26:01 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Staten Island connection posted by David L. on June 27, 1997 at 00:03:29: The major reason why such a connection was not made in conjunction with the building of the Verrazzano Bridge in the early-mid '60's can be summed up in two words: Robert Moses
              

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              • Subject: Re: Staten Island connection
              • Message Number: 756234
              • Posted by: Julio Perez
              • Date: Mon Jun 30 07:25:46 1997
                
                In Reply to: [6]Re: Staten Island connection posted by Charles Fiori on June 27, 1997 at 08:23:56: Does the MTA currently consider a connection between the Staten Island Railway and the rest of the subway system as an _active_ project? If it's considered as active, there should be more hope in it becoming reality...
                

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                • Subject: Re: Staten Island connection
                • Message Number: 756270
                • Posted by: Lou
                • Date: Tue Jul 1 16:13:48 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [6]Re: Staten Island connection posted by Charles Fiori on June 27, 1997 at 08:23:56: The MTA Staten Island Railway (SIRT-OA used to be) has a wye at St. Gerogre but their car maintenance is done at a shop at Clifton (3rd stop East of St. George). There is a MOW shop at Tomkinsville (1st stop east of St. George). They also have a small police force/office at that building too. The R44's were rebuilt at Coney Island Shops when a contractor failed a load test on one of the first rebuilts and then defaulted on the contract (I think). As far as I know all maintenace is done at Clifton. When the cars went to and from Coney Island they were moved by truck over the road.
                  

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                  • Subject: Re: Staten Island connection
                  • Message Number: 756345
                  • Posted by: Raymond
                  • Date: Thu Jul 3 10:14:21 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [5]Re: Staten Island connection posted by Lou on July 01, 1997 at 16:13:48: You are right about the maintainance facility. But the SIR cars are airlifted via helicopter from St. George to Coney Island. The army supplies the helicopters. It is an amazaing sight to see, but it works!
                    

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                    • Subject: Re: Staten Island connection
                    • Message Number: 756357
                    • Posted by: Lou
                    • Date: Thu Jul 3 16:05:55 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [5]Re: Staten Island connection posted by Raymond on July 03, 1997 at 10:14:21: Helicopeter??? I saw in the Staten Island Advance (back then) them loading the cars on flat cars. Maybe those are the ones that went/came back from the contractor? Helicopter, hehe love it.
                      

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                      • Subject: Re: Staten Island connection
                      • Message Number: 756378
                      • Posted by: Jim
                      • Date: Fri Jul 4 00:43:43 1997
                        
                        In Reply to: [5]Re: Staten Island connection posted by Raymond on July 03, 1997 at 10:14:21: Next we'll be hearing stories about retractable tracks on the Verrezanno Narrows bridge.
                        

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                        • Subject: Re: Staten Island connection
                        • Message Number: 756388
                        • Posted by: John
                        • Date: Fri Jul 4 14:08:52 1997
                          
                          In Reply to: [5]Re: Staten Island connection posted by Jim on July 04, 1997 at 00:43:43: And how some other "lunitic" will say that they were on the R train and it crossed the Verrezano Bridge.
                          

                          ---

                          • Subject: Re: Staten Island connection
                          • Message Number: 756398
                          • Posted by: Mark Greenwald
                          • Date: Fri Jul 4 23:50:41 1997
                            
                            In Reply to: [6]Re: Staten Island connection posted by John on July 04, 1997 at 14:08:52: You guys are cold---yet--very amusing---I'm sure John will have something to say---I think somebody ought to put a thing together from the very beginning of the ride over the q-boro bridge to the present--it would make a great "made for tv" movie---ROFLMAO
                            

                            ---

                            • Subject: Re: Staten Island connection
                            • Message Number: 756456
                            • Posted by: Raymond
                            • Date: Tue Jul 8 10:12:55 1997
                              
                              In Reply to: [5]Re: Staten Island connection posted by Lou on July 03, 1997 at 16:05:55: I am glad that someone still has a sense of humor on this web-site. There are too many wierdly serious people here! Get lives you people, and learn how to spell! (Must be a lot of publik skool graduates with computers.) And by the way, the SIR does float the cars for major rehabs, etc.
                              

                              ---

                              • Subject: Re: Staten Island connection
                              • Message Number: 756523
                              • Posted by: tom pinto
                              • Date: Thu Jul 10 16:02:17 1997
                                
                                In Reply to: [5]Re: Staten Island connection posted by Raymond on July 08, 1997 at 10:12:55: there is an old section of roadbed for a proposed cross island passenger line behind the staten island mall, including a stone bridge abutment, just at the edge of the parkland graded over a century ago.
                                

                                ---

                                • Subject: Re: Staten Island connection
                                • Message Number: 756564
                                • Posted by: larry
                                • Date: Fri Jul 11 17:12:40 1997
                                  
                                  In Reply to: [5]Re: Staten Island connection posted by tom pinto on July 10, 1997 at 16:02:17: The old right of way near near the mall I last visited over twenty years ago and consisted of two hand hewn stone abutments over a dry creekbed and about 150 feet of obviously graded single track roadbed actually quite a way from the.ame mall, mostly towards the edge of the public parkland just before the creek running into richmondtown. This would have been a few hundred yards from the end of the old airport runway. Does anybody remember the airport? The construction must be a century old, but it sure was is rail roadbed. It may be gone now. Interestingly some of the old trolley rails were still under the street in Stapleton as recently as ten years ago. At least a ten foot section under the pavement near the old R & H brewary site. In the early 1960's four trolleys were stored in the Saint George Yard of the SIRT. A PCC (I believe 1000), an old Peter Witt from Brooklyn and a Queensboro Bridge car. All were operable. Wonder what heppened to them.Another old PCC was stored in Richmondtown near the old trolley garage at the landfill, but was horribly vandalized.
                                  

                                  ---

                                  • Subject: Re: Staten Island connection
                                  • Message Number: 756568
                                  • Posted by: John
                                  • Date: Fri Jul 11 19:41:10 1997
                                    
                                    In Reply to: [5]Re: Staten Island connection posted by larry on July 11, 1997 at 17:12:40: Do you think trolley or light rail would be ideal in Staten Island? Something like that could enhance the bus system, be quicker and more direct than many bus lines, and serve more areas than the SIRT.
                                    

                                    ---

                                    • Subject: Re: Staten Island connection
                                    • Message Number: 756588
                                    • Posted by: larry
                                    • Date: Sat Jul 12 15:29:26 1997
                                      
                                      In Reply to: [5]Re: Staten Island connection posted by John on July 11, 1997 at 19:41:10: The deal on light rail is complicated for Staten Island. Many residents desire isolation. The SIRT right of way would have been the ideal feeder, but during rehabilitation no thought was given to passing sidings of interchange. Light rail is cheaper to construct, which is the big plus, and environmentally sensitive. There is not necessarily need for double track. A light rail extension to Richmondtown (single track) via the SIRT using restored cars with a hotel at the juncture would have made economic sense, but poor zoning and total incompetence on the part of the Richmondtown historical society prevented this from becoming another Williamsburg Va. If you get a chance to go to Philadelphia ride the Norristown line, run with one man operation very analagous to the SIRT, and slightly lighter equipment. There is no reason single unit light rail cars could be run together with the heavy rail units on the SIRT. Another obvious tourist line would be from the Ferry to Snug harbor, except for the fact a construction company has dumped a few thousand tons of sand on the right of way. Instead of screwing around with trolleys in Red Hook where only tourists with Uzi's and grenades dare venture a trolley museum at the terminal running to and from Snug Harbor, with a hotel would be the cats meow. Trolley cars are not an end in themselves. Milan now has a large number of 1920 era Peter Witt cars coming up for scrapping and they would made ideal vehicles for a historical line. They would cost less than the Gomaco replicas. Of course the South Beach line should be restored, with the road under the expressway being used as the underpass, with light rail running the entire length. I remember when the roadbed was visible all the way to Midland beach. For a City the size of staten Island the number of people are there, but there is no critical mass. The planners put the cart before the horse, looking at where people live, then planning transit. Historically the population shift and housing pattern developed after the rail line was installed. Air quality is a significant public benefit, and light rail certainly reduces polution. One problem is the TA goldplates everything and a line like the San Diego trolley seems out of the question.
                                      

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Thread title: BRONX.MANHATTAN BUS ROUTE SHORT-TURNS (756156)
Started on Fri Jun 27 09:22:30 1997, by steve lowenthal

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• Subject: BRONX.MANHATTAN BUS ROUTE SHORT-TURNS
• Message Number: 756156
• Posted by: steve lowenthal
• Date: Fri Jun 27 09:22:30 1997
  
  Does anyone have any info on short turns for the Bx and Manhattan ,I know of a few ie--M15 south of houston ,on allen st to return northbound..Looking for details also please,thank you
  

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Thread title: 1960 to 1965 destination curtain readings (756157)
Started on Fri Jun 27 09:25:22 1997, by steve lowenthal

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• Subject: 1960 to 1965 destination curtain readings
• Message Number: 756157
• Posted by: steve lowenthal
• Date: Fri Jun 27 09:25:22 1997
  
  does anyone have a list of curtain readings==front signs and side signs ,readings only for the mabstoa and nycta bus routes circa 1960 to 1965,thank you
  

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Thread title: Return Of the redbirds??? (756172)
Started on Fri Jun 27 19:54:06 1997, by Zack

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• Subject: Return Of the redbirds???
• Message Number: 756172
• Posted by: Zack
• Date: Fri Jun 27 19:54:06 1997
  
  after seeing a picture of the new R-110b it resembles the REDBIRD. mabye we can have the NYCTA paint the cars like the redbird
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: Return Of the redbirds???
  • Message Number: 756176
  • Posted by: Steve
  • Date: Fri Jun 27 20:10:08 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Return Of the redbirds??? posted by Zack on June 27, 1997 at 19:54:06: I think that you are referring to the R-110A that looks like a redbird.
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: Return Of the redbirds???
    • Message Number: 756185
    • Posted by: Nathan
    • Date: Sat Jun 28 01:16:46 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: Return Of the redbirds??? posted by Steve on June 27, 1997 at 20:10:08: Yeah, the R-110B does not look anything like a red bird... Still, I think the colour RED suits any subway, Red cars just seem to look good, kind of imposing, in the dark tunnel/station light. Then there is the ugly silver cars who destroyed the red birds, and basically reflect light everywhere and make the subway look like, well, you get the picture,
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: Return Of the redbirds???
      • Message Number: 756191
      • Posted by: ?
      • Date: Sat Jun 28 02:06:53 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Return Of the redbirds??? posted by Zack on June 27, 1997 at 19:54:06: what's a mabye? J/K
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: Return Of the redbirds???
        • Message Number: 756204
        • Posted by: Steve
        • Date: Sat Jun 28 18:51:18 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: Return Of the redbirds??? posted by Nathan on June 28, 1997 at 01:16:46: Stainless is not pretty - granted. Red is an okay color. Personally, I think that the Corona 1963-64 Worlds Fair cars were the best looking car ever, on this system but face it, It's not all about looks. Stainless is low maintenance whereas painted cars are not. In NY where the miscreant ratio is about 1 in 12, painted dars will be destroyed in short order. If you think I'm wrong or kidding, look at some of the stainless cars like the R-62s and the R-68s. The hooligans have begun to carve in the outer skin and they use bats on the interiors. Face it, red may work in some cities but in NY it's like a red flag and a bull.
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: Return Of the redbirds???
          • Message Number: 756210
          • Posted by: M.J.S.
          • Date: Sun Jun 29 03:12:55 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Return Of the redbirds??? posted by Zack on June 27, 1997 at 19:54:06: Again with this nonsense, there was already a thread about ruining the R110 by making it look like a redbird.
            

            ---

            • Subject: Re: Return Of the redbirds???
            • Message Number: 756233
            • Posted by: John
            • Date: Mon Jun 30 05:46:45 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: Return Of the redbirds??? posted by M.J.S. on June 29, 1997 at 03:12:55: How you gonna paint a stainless steel car, anyway?
              

              ---

              • Subject: Re: Return Of the redbirds???
              • Message Number: 756240
              • Posted by: M.J.S.
              • Date: Mon Jun 30 14:21:54 1997
                
                In Reply to: [6]Re: Return Of the redbirds??? posted by John on June 30, 1997 at 05:46:45: How do you think cars and busses are painted?
                

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Thread title: Re: Cities with Elevateds (Sioux City and Vienna) (756175)
Started on Fri Jun 27 20:08:56 1997, by Andrew Byler

---

• Subject: Re: Cities with Elevateds (Sioux City and Vienna)
• Message Number: 756175
• Posted by: Andrew Byler
• Date: Fri Jun 27 20:08:56 1997
  
  In Reply to: [6]Re: Cities with Elevateds posted by Andrew Huie on June 27, 1997 at 19:55:14: The Sioux City, IA (not Falls, sorry!) system was a real live elevated with multiple unit cars, not trolleys running above the streets. It was built and ran during the 1890's and maybe also the early 1900's. The only reason I know about it is a picture I remembered from the Trains issue from April 1986 on Iowa. It is on pg. 24, lower left hand corner. The magazine refers to a further article in the May 1986 Model Railroader which goes into more detail, so I'll have to refer you there for more information. The picture itself is a normal steel elevated with a tiny stem engine hauling two cars - if we didn't know better, it could be a scene from New York in the 1890's. As an aside, I remembered another foreign elevated (I am not sure how I forgot it). Vienna has its famous Gurtel line running in the middle of the road of the same name, a good 20 feet off the ground, and dating back from the good old days of real elevated construction. It carries the U-6 line now. Andy
  

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Thread title: How many possibilities are there? (756177)
Started on Fri Jun 27 20:14:27 1997, by Bob

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• Subject: How many possibilities are there?
• Message Number: 756177
• Posted by: Bob
• Date: Fri Jun 27 20:14:27 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Re: RE: New Routes & Stuff posted by Gerry O'Regan on June 26, 1997 at 16:20:32: I wonder how many different possibilities there are (without back-tracking or looping)? For the A Division it's not too complicated: From the North you can start at 242-Bway or Woodlawn-Jerome or 241-White Plains or Dyre or Pelham or 148-Lenox (6 possibilities) and take either East or West side (2) to either South Ferry or New Lots or Nostrand-Flatbush Ave. (3) plus the Fushing Line and the 42nd St Shuttle. for a maximun of (6 * 2 * 3) + 1 + 1 or 38. Of course there are several routes that are not possible, For example, 242-Bway cannot access the East Side. Lenox cannot access the West Side. For the B division, things get much more complicated. For example, a train starting at Rockaway Parkway on the Canarsie line can either 1. go to 8th Ave and 14St. St 2. Switch at Eastern Parkway to the Broadway Line, then go over the Williamsburg Bridge and either a. Take Nassau St. back to Brooklyn then take any one of 4 routes from there i) Brighton ii)Sea Beach iii)West End iv) 4th Ave & 95th St. b. Switch to the 6th Ave.-Houston St. line (old KK route) to West 4th St to either 6th or 8th Ave. to i)Washington Heights ii)Concourse iii)179th St. iv)Jamaica Center That's 13 possibilities right there just for Rockaway Parkway (and I'm sure I must have missed a few!). There must be hundreds in total - even more, once the connection is made to the 63rd. St tunnel. Any volunteers out there to figure them all out?
  

  ---

  • Subject: Re: How many possibilities are there?
  • Message Number: 756182
  • Posted by: Steve
  • Date: Fri Jun 27 21:42:51 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]How many possibilities are there? posted by Bob on June 27, 1997 at 20:14:27: I think you've covered them all except 21st St.-Queensbridge.
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: How many possibilities are there?
    • Message Number: 756316
    • Posted by: Michael Berson
    • Date: Wed Jul 2 21:36:17 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]How many possibilities are there? posted by Bob on June 27, 1997 at 20:14:27: How about this one... From Jamaica Center to Jamaica Center You could follow the normal J route from Jamaica Center to Marcy Avenue. Then cross the Williamsburg Bridge and take the cutoff to 6th Avenue (old KK route). Uptown along 6th Avenue to 53rd Street. 53rd Street Eastbound to Queens Plaza. From there, follow the route of the E to Jamaica Center. Mike
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: How many possibilities are there?
      • Message Number: 756324
      • Posted by: Andrew Byler
      • Date: Wed Jul 2 22:49:09 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: How many possibilities are there? posted by Michael Berson on July 02, 1997 at 21:36:17: You could do the same thing on a few other routes. Either the Dyre Ave. or White Plains Road lines from the Bronx could run down Broadway-7th to South Ferry and then up Park-Lex to the origin, and vice versa. The N and D/Q or B and F could run as loops through Coney Island. Fianlly, I think 6th and 8th Ave. could be used as loops via 53rd St., though I'd have to check the track maps to be certain. Andy
        

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        • Subject: Re: How many possibilities are there?
        • Message Number: 756338
        • Posted by: John
        • Date: Thu Jul 3 06:23:08 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: How many possibilities are there? posted by Andrew Byler on July 02, 1997 at 22:49:09: Loop trains, huh? Not a bad idea. Is it possible to recreate the Nassau Street Loop?
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: How many possibilities are there?
          • Message Number: 756411
          • Posted by: Steve
          • Date: Sat Jul 5 23:18:01 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: How many possibilities are there? posted by Andrew Byler on July 02, 1997 at 22:49:09: 6th and 8th Ave lines can not be looped via 53rd St.
            

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Thread title: IRT Extension (756179)
Started on Fri Jun 27 20:29:01 1997, by Steve

---

• Subject: IRT Extension
• Message Number: 756179
• Posted by: Steve
• Date: Fri Jun 27 20:29:01 1997
  
  I have a proposal for an extension of subway service in Brooklyn. The #2 train terminates at Flatbush Ave. I believe that the line should be extended in a South-East direction, along Flatbush Avenue to Kings Plaza. I think that this would provide the TA an excellent opportunity to build a subway extension which would instantly attract riders, not duplicate an existing service and help bolster the local economy. In addition, if one wanted to get a bit exotic, the new line could be extended via elevated ROW to the west end of Rockaway [Jacob Riis Park] This would also afford the TA an opportunity to build a state of the art yard & maintenance facility on the land occupied by the now deserted Floyd Bennett Field.
  

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  • Subject: IRT Extension
  • Message Number: 756180
  • Posted by: Steve
  • Date: Fri Jun 27 20:30:03 1997
    
    I have a proposal for an extension of subway service in Brooklyn. The #2 train terminates at Flatbush Ave. I believe that the line should be extended in a South-East direction, along Flatbush Avenue to Kings Plaza. I think that this would provide the TA an excellent opportunity to build a subway extension which would instantly attract riders, not duplicate an existing service and help bolster the local economy. In addition, if one wanted to get a bit exotic, the new line could be extended via elevated ROW to the west end of Rockaway [Jacob Riis Park] This would also afford the TA an opportunity to build a state of the art yard & maintenance facility on the land occupied by the now deserted Floyd Bennett Field.
    

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    • Subject: Re: IRT Extension
    • Message Number: 756199
    • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
    • Date: Sat Jun 28 18:17:00 1997
      
      In Reply to: [6]IRT Extension posted by Steve on June 27, 1997 at 20:30:03: Sounds like a great idea, penetrating a section of Brooklyn with no previous subway service AND balancing the two branches of the IRT in Brooklyn with similar length routes. Unfortunately, if NYC can't afford to build the desperately needed 2nd Av. line in Manhattan, such an extension would be difficult to get off (or in) the ground.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: IRT Extension
      • Message Number: 756200
      • Posted by: Bob Andersen
      • Date: Sat Jun 28 18:20:39 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]IRT Extension posted by Steve on June 27, 1997 at 20:30:03: I think something similar to this was on the drawing board many years ago - , and it's definitely a good idea. I guess the problem now (besides money) would be the disruption to traffic on Flatbush Ave. for who knows how many years.
        

        ---

        • Subject: Re: IRT Extension
        • Message Number: 756207
        • Posted by: Subway-buff
        • Date: Sat Jun 28 22:20:33 1997
          
          In Reply to: [6]IRT Extension posted by Steve on June 27, 1997 at 20:30:03: In the 1970's NYCT had other dreams: a Utica ave subway, extend the Canarsie line all the way to the ocean, extend the Flatbush line to the ocean, and the super express in queens/63 st. The financial cruch that stopped 2nd ave also cancelled Utica Ave idea as well as the others. Only the 63 st tunnel, tearing down of the Jamaica EL past 121 st and the short Parsons/Archer subway survived.. I think the only way NYC will get more lines is *if* we get the olympic games (and I wouldn't hold my breath for that!). *if* we do get the games then I look for 2nd ave to be built and possibly a Javits link, and maybe LaGuardia to N train and a JFK train link. As far as Utica IRT and Extended Faltbush/Nostrand IRT- I think mag-lev subways will happen sooner thasn that !--they will *never* happen !!! (Mag-lev if you want to know are traisn with no tracks- they ride a cushion of air.) like the French TGV Trains or the Japanese Bullet Trains. (The Impossible dream-NY Srtyle!)
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: IRT Extension
          • Message Number: 756209
          • Posted by: John
          • Date: Sun Jun 29 01:00:43 1997
            
            In Reply to: [5]Re: IRT Extension posted by Subway-buff on June 28, 1997 at 22:20:33: The TGV and Bullet Train (Shinkansan) are NOT mag-levs! They are, in fact, regular trains. The only difference is that the tracks are modified and built in a way that there are no curves in them and they cannot be used by conventional trains (it would throw the tracks out of alignment).
            

            ---

            • Subject: Re: IRT Extension
            • Message Number: 756229
            • Posted by: gary jacobi
            • Date: Sun Jun 29 22:16:00 1997
              
              In Reply to: [5]Re: IRT Extension posted by Bob Andersen on June 28, 1997 at 18:20:39: It was planned to follow on the heels of the dual contracts (1916). One of the NY Subway Histories quotes a real estate agent assuring buyers in the area that they would soon have subway service. They now have grown grandchildren, but still no subway.
              

              ---

              • Subject: Re: IRT Extension
              • Message Number: 756243
              • Posted by: Jerry
              • Date: Mon Jun 30 17:15:42 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]IRT Extension posted by Steve on June 27, 1997 at 20:29:01: In a 1950's bond issue, the city promised to extend the Nostrand Ave. line(now the #2) all the way to Sheepshead Bay. It never happenned and will probably never happen (the money, as usual was frittered away without the big capital projects ever being done). In any case, as extension along Nostrand Avenue, rather than out along Flatbush Ave. would make much more sense, because of the higher population density on both sides of Nostrand.
                

                ---

                • Subject: Re: IRT Extension
                • Message Number: 756277
                • Posted by: Steve
                • Date: Tue Jul 1 18:53:26 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [5]Re: IRT Extension posted by Jerry on June 30, 1997 at 17:15:42: Yes, but Nostrand Avenue runs parallel and in close prooximity to the other 4 major Brooklyn Lines. Besides, this would give subway access to the residents of Mill Basin, who have no service now.
                  

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Thread title: Calgary Transit (756184)
Started on Sat Jun 28 01:10:37 1997, by Nathan

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• Subject: Calgary Transit
• Message Number: 756184
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Sat Jun 28 01:10:37 1997
  
  I heard that a Siemens Regio-Sprinter was/is being tested in Calgary, to a)test the vehicle, and b)to see if ridership warrants to expand the C-Train light rail system. Does anyone know anything about this? I heard from a Light Rail organization that the Calgary system was the most successful LRT system in North America (115 000passengers/day).
  

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  • Subject: Re: Calgary Transit
  • Message Number: 756218
  • Posted by: John of Calgary
  • Date: Sun Jun 29 16:55:29 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Calgary Transit posted by Nathan on June 28, 1997 at 01:10:37: Yes, they did test the RegioSprinter here last summer when it ran from Anderson Station to the southernmost reaches of the city or 162 Av. SW, to be precise.) And then they shipped it off to California for more tests. I also think that the LA transit system has bought a few cars for service on the Green Line. (Or was it the Blue Line? Oh shoot, I forgot.)
    

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Thread title: Los Angeles (*hyperventilates*) Red Line Subway (756190)
Started on Sat Jun 28 01:33:44 1997, by Nathan

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• Subject: Los Angeles (*hyperventilates*) Red Line Subway
• Message Number: 756190
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Sat Jun 28 01:33:44 1997
  
  Is there any hope?? Please, let there be hope! Does any one know the status of the LA Metro-Rail project? Is there a corresponding ridership increase when new sections of the line open? Please, let there be light!
  

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Thread title: STCUM Depots (756198)
Started on Sat Jun 28 17:51:00 1997, by Ted Nielsen

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• Subject: STCUM Depots
• Message Number: 756198
• Posted by: Ted Nielsen
• Date: Sat Jun 28 17:51:00 1997
  
  I would like to know if the train depots in Montreal are underground and their locations. ( I'm creating a Bahn layout ) This applies only to the Metro and not the commuter lines. thanks.
  

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  • Subject: Re: STCUM Depots
  • Message Number: 756202
  • Posted by: Brian
  • Date: Sat Jun 28 18:42:03 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]STCUM Depots posted by Ted Nielsen on June 28, 1997 at 17:51:00: I don't know where, but they have to be underground because of the rubber tires, which are damaged by snow. They should have built the system with steel tires.
    

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    • Subject: Re: STCUM Depots
    • Message Number: 756203
    • Posted by: Nathan
    • Date: Sat Jun 28 18:48:31 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Re: STCUM Depots posted by Brian on June 28, 1997 at 18:42:03: Why are the rubber tires damaged by snow? The STCUM trains also have steel wheels which run on steel rails, in case there is a tire blow-out. WHyare the rubber tires damaged by snow?
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: STCUM Depots
      • Message Number: 756208
      • Posted by: John
      • Date: Sun Jun 29 00:55:23 1997
        
        In Reply to: [5]Re: STCUM Depots posted by Nathan on June 28, 1997 at 18:48:31: How can they be damaged by snow? Every winter, we drive in the snow, don't we?
        

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        • Subject: Re: STCUM Depots
        • Message Number: 756228
        • Posted by: Nathan=canadian=knows what snow is
        • Date: Wed Jul 9 19:55:40 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: STCUM Depots posted by John on June 29, 1997 at 00:55:23: That was what I was asking! The person who put the message up, before mine said that the rubber tires where damaged by snow. Where I live (right now) we don't usually get snow at all in winter, but in Montreal they get sooo much snow that if rubber tired vehicles were damaged by it, STCUM wouldn't have chosen them!
          

          ---

          • Subject: Re: STCUM Depots
          • Message Number: 756231
          • Posted by: Brian
          • Date: Sun Jun 29 23:35:02 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: STCUM Depots posted by Nathan=canadian=knows what snow is on June 29, 1997 at 22:12:34: The system is entirely underground. This is because the rubber tires use more than just the tracks, also the surrounding area, which means that it is much more difficult to clean than steel tracks, and the wheels can often get stuck in it.
            

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            • Subject: Re: STCUM Depots
            • Message Number: 756244
            • Posted by: Gerry O'Regan
            • Date: Mon Jun 30 17:27:32 1997
              
              In Reply to: [6]Re: STCUM Depots posted by Brian on June 29, 1997 at 23:35:02: Thread derailed! Someone please answer the original question!
              

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              • Subject: Re: STCUM Depots
              • Message Number: 756362
              • Posted by: Bingo
              • Date: Thu Jul 3 17:41:46 1997
                
                In Reply to: [5]Re: STCUM Depots posted by Brian on June 29, 1997 at 23:35:02: The tires run on separate running boards next to the rails. The guide wheels (the tires on the side of the bogie that keep the train stable within the rail trench) run on insulated boards that are on each wall of the trench. For those who don't know, Metro opened in 1966, runs two series of rolling stock, MR-63 and MR-73, and has 5 lines, 1,2,4,5 and 6. Why is there no 3? That's an interesting story. Has something to do with Expo 67.
                

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                • Subject: Re: STCUM Depots
                • Message Number: 756363
                • Posted by: John
                • Date: Thu Jul 3 18:17:05 1997
                  
                  In Reply to: [5]Re: STCUM Depots posted by Bingo on July 03, 1997 at 17:41:46: The Metro has two types of trains? When I was in Montreal, I only noticed one type. What's the difference between the two?
                  

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                  • Subject: Re: STCUM Depots
                  • Message Number: 756370
                  • Posted by: Sylvain
                  • Date: Thu Jul 3 22:56:46 1997
                    
                    In Reply to: [6]Re: STCUM Depots posted by Bingo on July 03, 1997 at 17:41:46: There is no #6 line in Montral. The number is/was for a line along Pie IX Bd to Rivière-des-Prairies. I don`t know if it will ever be built...
                    

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                    • Subject: Re: STCUM Depots
                    • Message Number: 756371
                    • Posted by: Sylvain
                    • Date: Thu Jul 3 22:57:28 1997
                      
                      In Reply to: [6]Re: STCUM Depots posted by Bingo on July 03, 1997 at 17:41:46: There is no #6 line in Montreal. The number 3 is/was for a line along Pie IX Bd to Rivière-des-Prairies. I don`t know if it will ever be built...
                      

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                      • Subject: Re: STCUM Depots
                      • Message Number: 756476
                      • Posted by: Bingo
                      • Date: Tue Jul 8 20:17:00 1997
                        
                        In Reply to: [5]Re: STCUM Depots posted by John on July 03, 1997 at 18:17:05: There is none. They both look exactly the same, with the same dimensions, and the same paint job. They just were made in different periods of time. (1963,1973)
                        

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                        • Subject: Re: STCUM Depots
                        • Message Number: 756477
                        • Posted by: Bingo
                        • Date: Tue Jul 8 20:19:03 1997
                          
                          In Reply to: [5]Re: STCUM Depots posted by Sylvain on July 03, 1997 at 22:56:46: Line 6 was never built?! I always thought it existed. Are there plans in the future for it's construction/completion/planning?
                          

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Thread title: What is that big hole on the right side of the Southbound Track between 36 (755841)
Started on Sat Jun 28 17:51:52 1997, by .

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• Subject: What is that big hole on the right side of the Southbound Track between 36
• Message Number: 755841
• Posted by: .
• Date: Sat Jun 28 17:51:52 1997
  
  
  

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Thread title: Re: What is that big hole on the right side of the Southbound Track between (755842)
Started on Sat Jun 28 17:51:54 1997, by .

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• Subject: Re: What is that big hole on the right side of the Southbound Track between
• Message Number: 755842
• Posted by: .
• Date: Sat Jun 28 17:51:54 1997
  
  
  

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Thread title: TTC Ugly Stations, Vancouver, everything else, life story, was Re: Toronto (755894)
Started on Sat Jun 28 17:53:14 1997, by .

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• Subject: TTC Ugly Stations, Vancouver, everything else, life story, was Re: Toronto
• Message Number: 755894
• Posted by: .
• Date: Sat Jun 28 17:53:14 1997
  
  
  

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Thread title: Re: TTC Ugly Stations, Vancouver, everything else, life story, was Re: (755919)
Started on Sat Jun 28 17:53:51 1997, by .

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• Subject: Re: TTC Ugly Stations, Vancouver, everything else, life story, was Re:
• Message Number: 755919
• Posted by: .
• Date: Sat Jun 28 17:53:51 1997
  
  
  

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  • Subject: Re: TTC Ugly Stations, Vancouver, everything else, life story, was Re:
  • Message Number: 755934
  • Posted by: .
  • Date: Sat Jun 28 17:54:16 1997
    
    
    

    ---

    • Subject: Re: TTC Ugly Stations, Vancouver, everything else, life story, was Re:
    • Message Number: 755996
    • Posted by: .
    • Date: Sat Jun 28 17:55:59 1997
      
      
      

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      • Subject: Re: TTC Ugly Stations, Vancouver, everything else, life story, was Re:
      • Message Number: 756044
      • Posted by: .
      • Date: Sat Jun 28 17:57:09 1997
        
        
        

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        • Subject: Re: TTC Ugly Stations, Vancouver, everything else, life story, was Re:
        • Message Number: 756125
        • Posted by: .
        • Date: Wed Jul 9 19:53:30 1997
          
          
          

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Thread title: Come to the Light/ Was:Coffee Bars and Bullet nosed Lada's/STARBUCKS (755997)
Started on Sat Jun 28 17:56:00 1997, by .

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• Subject: Come to the Light/ Was:Coffee Bars and Bullet nosed Lada's/STARBUCKS
• Message Number: 755997
• Posted by: .
• Date: Sat Jun 28 17:56:00 1997
  
  
  

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Thread title: Airport Connection (756213)
Started on Sun Jun 29 07:59:05 1997, by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto

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• Subject: Airport Connection
• Message Number: 756213
• Posted by: Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto
• Date: Sun Jun 29 07:59:05 1997
  
  Anyone know if there is final approval/work started on the Jamaica LIRR to JFK link? (I'll never accept the waste of the abandoned but intact LIRR Rockaway Branch just sitting there available, runnung from the Main Line to Ozone Park, available - but unexploited!)
  

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  • Subject: Re: Airport Connection
  • Message Number: 756214
  • Posted by: Steve
  • Date: Sun Jun 29 10:45:08 1997
    
    In Reply to: [5]Airport Connection posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on June 29, 1997 at 07:59:05: It's likely all election year babble. With feasibility studies, environmental impact studies, engineering studies & public hearings, all of which have not yet taken place, the odds of NOT seeing a JFK rail link before 2020 is all but assured.
    

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    • Subject: Re: Airport Connection
    • Message Number: 756217
    • Posted by: JFK-LRS
    • Date: Sun Jun 29 14:16:12 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Airport Connection posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on June 29, 1997 at 07:59:05: Final approval on the JFK-LRS has not yet been given by The Port Authority of NY & NJ to any of the five consortiums bidding the project. The award notice will most probably be given towards the end of summer in August or September.
      

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Thread title: Floyd Bennet Field (756215)
Started on Sun Jun 29 11:02:27 1997, by Steve

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• Subject: Floyd Bennet Field
• Message Number: 756215
• Posted by: Steve
• Date: Sun Jun 29 11:02:27 1997
  
  In Reply to: [5]Don't turn Floyd-Bennet Field into a freaky train yard, take your ideas elsewhere (was Re: IRT Extension posted by M.J.S. on June 29, 1997 at 03:26:54: First of all, the same arguments were made when Jamaica Yard was built in the 30s and the environmentalists (The Friends of Willow Lake) have fought the badly needed yard expansion for a decade or more. Second, a yard would take up less than 25% of the available area. Third, when was the last time you were to Floyd Bennet field? It's used by model airplane flyers, a few fairs and the GSA auctions cars there. I think that 75% of the current space would suffice for that limited use. Finally, if a rail link were built, the public would have greater access to the Gateway National Seashore which is, for the most part only accessible to those with cars or strong legs.
  

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  • Subject: Re: Floyd Bennet Field
  • Message Number: 756222
  • Posted by: M.J.S.
  • Date: Sun Jun 29 19:42:10 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Floyd Bennet Field posted by Steve on June 29, 1997 at 11:02:27: The purpose of my post was to mention that the field was not deserted. Yes, there is lots of useless space there that can become a yard, but the whole thing just shouldn't be paved over.
    

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Thread title: Comfortable BART Trains!! (756220)
Started on Sun Jun 29 19:32:28 1997, by Brian of Chicago

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• Subject: Comfortable BART Trains!!
• Message Number: 756220
• Posted by: Brian of Chicago
• Date: Sun Jun 29 19:32:28 1997
  
  I just visited SF and rode a BART Train, it was great. The trains are carpeted and have padded big seats. All the stations are clean and beautiful. Will Chicago or New York ever get the idea from bart and modernize. Here in Chicago it would be nice. Our El's are old and have hard plastic seats
  

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  • Subject: Re: Comfortable BART Trains!!
  • Message Number: 756223
  • Posted by: M.J.S.
  • Date: Sun Jun 29 19:47:32 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]Comfortable BART Trains!! posted by Brian of Chicago on June 29, 1997 at 19:32:28: The problem is that New York is a completely different system than BART, the padded seats wouldn't survive a day in New York (KILL ALL VANDALS!!!) Same with the carpeting. NY had vinyl seats a long time ago and this had to be removed because of heavy vandalism. A few R44 trains were made with carpet, that failed, they had to get Linolium. carpets and cushioned seats wouldn't last a day in New York, just look at the windows and you'll see what I mean.
    

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    • Subject: Re: Comfortable BART Trains!!
    • Message Number: 756227
    • Posted by: Nathan must = ignorant canadian
    • Date: Wed Jul 9 19:55:39 1997
      
      In Reply to: [5]Comfortable BART Trains!! posted by Brian of Chicago on June 29, 1997 at 19:32:28: Hmmm, the pretty picture you paint of the BART is not the one I am familliar with: Yes, the trains have padded seats... BUT: When the train ACTUALLY functions, that is usually after some technical delay, people finally board the trains and are crammed on like cattle, so who needs the seats? (the carpet is NOT very nice on your @$$) The stations may be "clean", but this is when being compared to NYC and Chicago. In SF they have methods of discouraging people from urinating off the ends of platforms, but the stations are still filled with trash, smell, etc. In final, there are other systems which New York and Chicago should look to as role models, (ie:European cities, though London needs a janatorial army to clean up the litter) other than SF.
      

      ---

      • Subject: Re: Comfortable BART Trains!!
      • Message Number: 756236
      • Posted by: Mark S Feinman
      • Date: Mon Jun 30 12:32:24 1997
        
        In Reply to: [6]Re: Comfortable BART Trains!! posted by M.J.S. on June 29, 1997 at 19:47:32: ... The last point reminded me of something I saw in CHicago that I don't think would last a day in NY either ... the doors on both sides of the cars have emergency releases right above them that anyone could pull "under penalty of law". While this is great for emergency evacuations, I could just imagine how many kids sitting in the last car would pull the release lever "just for kicks". --Mark
        

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        • Subject: Re: Comfortable BART Trains!!
        • Message Number: 756239
        • Posted by: Nathan (likes to pull door release)
        • Date: Wed Jul 9 19:55:54 1997
          
          In Reply to: [5]Re: Comfortable BART Trains!! posted by Mark S Feinman on June 30, 1997 at 12:32:24: Most transit systems in the world I have been on have these door release handles, under "In case of emergency break glass" covers. I have never seen kids pull these things, and if I was an operator and a kid on my train opened the doors, I would speed the train up to the point where the suspension becomes unstable and the train rocks uncontrollably, which should toss the delinquent off the guideway... hehehe
          

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          • Subject: Re: Comfortable BART Trains!!
          • Message Number: 756260
          • Posted by: Mark S Feinman
          • Date: Tue Jul 1 12:17:13 1997
            
            In Reply to: [6]Re: Comfortable BART Trains!! posted by Nathan (likes to pull door release) on June 30, 1997 at 14:21:49: .... yes, the emergency door handles are usually under glass which has to be broken. In Chicago, there was no glass to break! Just reach up and pull the door release. --Mark
            

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Thread title: New EPA regulations (756221)
Started on Sun Jun 29 19:37:55 1997, by Nathan

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• Subject: New EPA regulations
• Message Number: 756221
• Posted by: Nathan
• Date: Sun Jun 29 19:37:55 1997
  
  I was watching CNN this morning and they were talking about how the new EPA regulations would (aside from ensuring that plants and factories get anti-pollution equipment) require that more federal and state funds be spent on mass transit. Maybe the 2nd Av subway/el/light rail/horse and buggy/you get the picture might be built after all....
  

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  • Subject: Re: New EPA regulations
  • Message Number: 756245
  • Posted by: Zack
  • Date: Mon Jun 30 18:23:01 1997
    
    In Reply to: [6]New EPA regulations posted by Nathan on June 29, 1997 at 19:37:55: Finally (where would the stable and horses come from?) :-)
    

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