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Old SubTalk Archive Posts 8000-8999

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POSTER>Alan Follett 
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SUBJECT>Last day of service questions
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:54 1998
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Posted by Alan Follett on January 08, 1998 at 13:59:24:

   Can anyone furnish the last day of trolley service (i.e., regular
    revenue passenger servide) for the following cities?
    
    - New York (the Queensboro Bridge line--ca. 1955?)
    - Suburban New York - I believe TARS service north of the city limits,
    in Yonkers or thereabouts, continued to the early 1950's?)
    - Cincinnati (ca. 1950?)
    - Dallas (1959, but does anyone recall the exact date?)
    - Kansas City (ca. 1957?)
    - Scranton (ca. 1952?)
    - Wilkes Barre (ca. 1950?)
    
    Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!
    
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NEXT>8010
PREVIOUS>7918
POSTER>Dan Schwartz 
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SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:56 1998
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Posted by Dan Schwartz on January 08, 1998 at 14:17:36:

   In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line posted
    by Mark S Feinman on January 05, 1998 at 22:46:47:
    
    Definitely well done. I hope to see it up there with the pictures
    soon.
    
    But it seems like there is just a bit too much emphasis on the various
    Brooklyn lines. I'd like to see a piece like this done for the Dyre
    Ave. line in the Bronx.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7996
POSTER>Dan Schwartz 
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SUBJECT>Re: exterior subway "MTA" placards-
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:58 1998
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Posted by Dan Schwartz on January 08, 1998 at 14:28:15:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: exterior subway "MTA" placards- posted by Adam on
    January 08, 1998 at 11:58:44:
    
    
    If the MTA had spent more money on installing the new logo, they would
    be accused of wasting money that could better be used for service
    improvements. Indeed, I think there had been some complaints in that
    regard when the new logo was first unveiled, and they may have decided
    to keep further logo-change costs to a minimum as a result. All in
    all, probably a smart decision.
    
    As far as peeling off, the "new logo" stickers have been up on the #4
    line R-62s for over a year, and they show no signs of peeling off. I
    presume that some testing of the adhesive for resistance to weather
    was done.
    
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NEXT>8126
PREVIOUS>7969
POSTER>trolleybus 
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SUBJECT>Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:00 1998
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Posted by trolleybus on January 08, 1998 at 14:40:49:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close
    Resemblance posted by Charles Fiori on January 07, 1998 at 09:11:54:
    
    Charles go to this store. Iwork as a bus oper for NYCT AND THEY HAVE
    ALL THE MODELS. MUCH MORE THAN NYCT MUSEUM. THEY ARE OPEN SATURDAY.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7924
POSTER>trolleybus 
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SUBJECT>Re: New Mannattan Bus Garage ,,Route Assignments
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:01 1998
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Posted by trolleybus on January 08, 1998 at 14:52:44:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: New Mannattan Bus Garage ,,Route Assignments
    posted by Steve L on January 06, 1998 at 14:07:06:
    
    what do you hear about staten island buses laying over at westside
    again.
    they are lowering the fare to 3.00 on 3/1/98 so i presume we will have
    a pick then.
    
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NEXT>8015
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
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SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars)
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:04 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 08, 1998 at 15:04:06:

   In Reply to: [7]SEPTA Question (the MFL and Trolleys) posted by DB on
    January 08, 1998 at 13:32:14:
    
    A short history of how the MFSE and the Subway Surface Lines have
    worked together (and still do):
    
    When the Market-Frankford Subway-Elevated was first built, it was
    elevated from Bridge-Pratt to Front and Market, then subway from Front
    St. to a portal at 24 St. where it became elevated with the following
    stops along Market Street:
    
    Subway: 2,5,8,11,13,15,
    Elevated: 32,36,40,46,52,56,60,63,Millbourne,69.
    
    There was also an extra elevated branch just where it became elevated
    out from the 2nd St. station east and south to the ferries on Delaware
    Avenue at Market St., so half the trains went to Bridge-Pratt, and
    half to the Ferries. All went from 69th St. Signs oin the stations
    back then said "Ferries-Frankford Trains."
    
    Surrounding the two MFSE tracks from about 13th (actually beginning at
    a lower-level turning circle under Juniper St, which is an alley
    between 13th and Broad) to the portal at 24th was a set of two outer
    (local) tracks used by trolley cars, originally the 10,11,13,34,37,38
    streetcars. They provided local service between 15th and 32nd St. with
    two stops at 19th and 24th then street service on Market Street to the
    trolley track splits at Woodland Avenue (now closed to traffic) and at
    Lancaster Avenue.
    
    Other trolleys in the old days ran on the street on Market St. right
    over the tunnels. BTW, Transfers were free until the early 60s I
    believe, when they became a nickel a transfer.
    
    In 1955 the tunnels were expanded: The MFSE tunnel was expanded to
    45th at Market and the old 32, 36, 40 St. El stations were replaced by
    the following subway stations: 30, 34, 40 Sts.
    
    The outer (local) streetcar tunnels were expanded with the MFSE up to
    32 St. under Market and then under Woodland Avenue to 40th St, with a
    "Lancaster" Portal at 36th and Market. The 10, 11, 13, 34, and 36
    trolleys went through the tunnels. Woodland Avenue over the tunnel
    became a part of the Univ. of Pennsylvania Campus.
    
    A 22nd St. local station was built for the trolley cars. If you look
    closely you can see the the 19 St. local station is much older looking
    than the 22 St station and has a completely different style. Also
    built were 30th&Market (both trolley and MFSE), 33&Market, 36&Sansom,
    37&Spruce.
    
    A large building (I think PGE) was built over the 24th & Market St.
    portal, which was abandoned in 1955, but was still visible outdoors
    until 1969 (I know because I saw it then).
    
    Since the MFSE has only one route, from 69th St. to Bridge-Pratt Sts.,
    no signs are needed on the trains. In the stations you only need to
    have signs saying "Trains to 69th St" or "Trains to Frankford". The
    station spacing is not odd; 19th and 22 are covered by the
    Subway-surface trolley cars. From 24th to 30 St is the Schuylkill
    River, so no stop is needed there.
    
    The only signs needed on an MFSE train are A or B. The reason there
    are so few A/B stops in West Philadelphia is that 34th St. used to be
    an A station, but because of new office buildings they had to make it
    a All-stop station. That now leaves 46 and Millbourne as B stations,
    and 63 as an A station.
    
    To the northeast, 2nd St. used to be an A station, and the old
    Fairmount Avenue station used to be a B station. (It was torn down
    when the line was moved to the median of I-95 and replaced with a
    Spring Garden St. Station.) Both 2nd and Spring Garden are now
    All-stop stations due to recent development.
    
    To summarize about station spacing: Currently there is a station every
    2-4 blocks across Center City, at 2, 5, 8, 11, 13, 15, 19, and 22
    Streets. West of the river on Market St. there are stops of some
    trolley or train at 30, 33, 34, 36, 40, 46, 52, 56, 60, 63,
    Millbourne(66), 69 St. That should be enough for most people.
    
    Interesting Final Facts:
    
    MFSE: Wide Gauge, 3rd Rail, "IRT" width cars
    Subway Surface: Wide Gauge, trolley pole overhead
    Broad St. Subway: Standard Gauge, 3rd Rail "BMT/IND" width cars
    
    It seems to me the system works great just the way it is, except that
    I wish the MFSE ran more often in midday. It's funny but the
    nearly-retired MFSE cars still look really good. But the lack of air
    conditioning is brutal in the summer.
    
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NEXT>8129
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
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SUBJECT>To Trolleybus: Which Store???
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:05 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 08, 1998 at 15:04:27:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close
    Resemblance posted by trolleybus on January 08, 1998 at 14:40:49:
    
    I got your msj, but to which store were you referring? I know the
    RedCaboose has a bunch of the Corgi models, but I am in Chicago and
    only get East a few times a year. Thanks for the reply.
    
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NEXT>8008
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Michael S. Buglak 
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SUBJECT>Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:08 1998
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Posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 08, 1998 at 16:15:09:

   I am traveling to Boston this Sunday, 1/11/98, & staying at the
    Sheraton in Prudential Center until Wednesday, 1/14. I'm looking for
    suggestions for interesting rides on "T" lines. Also, are there any
    decent hobby shops in downtown Boston that carry transit and/or
    traction msterial?
    Finally, I know that the MBTA has a policy of no photos of their
    property. Is there any way I can get a permit from them for
    photography from public areas (Re: Outdoor platforms)?
    
    As always, any feedback is MUCH appreciated. Thanks!-Michael S. Buglak
    
    
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NEXT>8021
PREVIOUS>8007
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
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SUBJECT>Re: Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:10 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on January 08, 1998 at 16:37:04:

   In Reply to: [8]Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA posted
    by Michael S. Buglak on January 08, 1998 at 16:15:09:
    
    With a stay that long, you can ride ALL the lines rapid transit and
    trolley lines easily! But don't miss the Ashmont-Mattapan segment of
    the Red Line. It is operated with PCCs (and internally to the MBTA, is
    part of the Green Line operation). You should also ride portions of
    the Commuter Rail system, perhaps one south side and one north side
    line.
    
    In addition, when in Cambridge, get off at Harvard Square and ride the
    77A trolley bus line (M-F only).
    
    The "no photos" policy is true, but I rarely get hassled. If so, just
    play ignorant and say "I'm sorry." You can try calling the PR office
    at MBTA H/Q to see if they will give you a permit. By the way, I'm
    told that policy is from way back, supposedly to "protect" MBTA
    workers. Sheesh.
    
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NEXT>8076
PREVIOUS>7998
POSTER>David Pirmann - Web site host 
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SUBJECT>Re: Transit board
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:12 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann - Web site host on January 08, 1998 at

   
    In Reply to: [8]Transit board posted by Gary Gordon on January 08,
    1998 at 12:47:05:
    
    Welcome Gary,
    
    I don't know of any particular site for transit workers. This site is
    not run by any transit agency, provider, or employee of any such
    agency or provider. That being said you're welcome to post here.
    However, a lot of MTA employees who might be lurking here may not post
    because of the public feeling toward the TA. Plus you'll find that
    most people here are NOT transit workers but instead, railfans.
    
    In any case, us laymen certainly welcome an insider's view of things.
    So welcome aboard :)
    
    -Dave
    
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NEXT>8146
PREVIOUS>8001
POSTER>David Pirmann - web site host 
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SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:14 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann - web site host on January 08, 1998 at

   
    In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
    posted by Dan Schwartz on January 08, 1998 at 14:17:36:
    
    Well, in the case of the Dyre line you might get your wish pretty
    soon, but if you want to volunteer, that would be great :-)
    
    -Dave
    
    
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NEXT>8019
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
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SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) One More Time
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:15 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 08, 1998 at 17:11:56:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars)
    posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 08, 1998 at 15:04:06:
    
    One final addendum:
    
    Numbered streets are 1/20 mile apart. Numbered streets in Philadelphia
    are about 1/10 mile apart. 15th St. and 13th Street are about 1/4 mile
    apart, with City Hall in between them. 11th St. is where Reading
    Terminal has always been (a major railroad terminal) so a station was
    needed there. So close together stations really are needed there. The
    others are 3 blocks or nearly 1/3 mile apart, farther than 23 and 28
    St. in New York.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7948
POSTER>Brian Wolk 
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SUBJECT>Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:17 1998
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Posted by Brian Wolk on January 08, 1998 at 17:19:13:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO posted by Nathan
    on January 06, 1998 at 21:25:52:
    
    That's sounds right. H-1's are disappearing every day and they need as
    many extra T-1's as possible to service the Y-U-S line. You can
    guarantee that they'll never use T-1's on the trashy B-D line!
    
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NEXT>8086
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>DB 
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SUBJECT>Thanks -- Re: SEPTA Question (the MFL and Trolleys)
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:19 1998
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Posted by DB on January 08, 1998 at 17:39:22:

   In Reply to: [8]SEPTA Question (the MFL and Trolleys) posted by DB on
    January 08, 1998 at 13:32:14:
    
    I agree with you 100% that the current MFL (or MFSE) trains are in
    excellent shape for 38 years old. The new trains are much nicer, as I
    said I was able to get a ride in one back in November.
    
    I still think the A/B skip-stops can be worked out better, perhaps
    when the M-4s are fully intergrated, they will have the capability or
    doing something different. Something I would like to see during peak
    
    N.B.--These is just a "perfect" world idea, and probabally not
    possible--
    
    *Have the trains arrive in this fashion every 5 or so minutes
    
    *Train order should be A, Local, B, Local
    
    A L B 69th
    A L Millbourne
    L B 63
    A L 60
    L B 56
    A L 52
    L B 46
    A L 40
    --------
    A L B 34 (what can i say, I am a Drexel Student...)
    A L B 30
    A L B 15
    A L B 13
    A L B 11
    A L B 8
    --------
    A L 5
    L B 2
    and continue the current pattern on Frankford portion
    
    Again, from an engineering standpoint, I dont know if any of it is
    possible. Perhaps a creation of a C line for office stops etc, would
    also be handy.
    
    Happy travels, DB
    
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NEXT>8025
PREVIOUS>7995
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
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SUBJECT>Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived!
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:21 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 08, 1998 at 19:17:05:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived! posted
    by Adam on January 08, 1998 at 11:50:18:
    
    I have a feeling that what people are doing is exploiting a "bug" in
    the software. I guess the people who wrote it at cubic forgot that a
    negative balence can't exist. I do know the system has 3 tracks of
    data, I belive one fixed and two variable length, that the damaged or
    older one is overwritten, and that the system was believed to be
    tamperproof.
    
    Oh yeah, 2600 has (had) a 1 hr realaudio file discussing this system.
    They mention Cubic's patent number there.
    
    Hey, I think Cubic is a defense contrractor. That would explain why
    the Metrocard cost a bundle and doesn't work half the time :)
    
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NEXT>8097
PREVIOUS>8005
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
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SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars)
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:23 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 08, 1998 at 19:27:19:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars)
    posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 08, 1998 at 15:04:06:
    
    I was only on that old stuff once, in the summer, and yeah, it's bad.
    BUT WHAT FUN THAT WINDOW IN THE FRONT IS!!!!!!!!! You can literally
    have a blast watching out the front!!! How fast can those things go
    anyway??
    
    Oh yeah, aren't the side door pnumatic??
    
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POSTER>Joe from Philly 
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SUBJECT>RE: Signs
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:26 1998
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Posted by Joe from Philly on January 08, 1998 at 19:54:11:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars)
    posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 08, 1998 at 15:04:06:
    
    I could be wrong, but I think DB was referrring to the lack of sinage
    on the station platforms, like "30th Street" even though their are the
    numbers of the stations on the supports of the trains.
    
    Also, I understand what he/she is saying about the stop spacing, I
    enter the el at 69th and have to transfer at 30 to go to 22 (except in
    summer or when Jnuary is like this.
    
    Icould be wrong though
    
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NEXT>8131
PREVIOUS>7749
POSTER>Squid 
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SUBJECT>Re: Writing in New York, nowadays !
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:29 1998
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Posted by Squid on January 08, 1998 at 20:23:45:

   In Reply to: [8]Writing in New York, nowadays ! posted by Pilot on
    January 01, 1998 at 18:41:39:
    
    Please excuse the late posting from a latecomer to subway fandom, but
    ...
    Like Bootsy (apparently) I'm of two minds about subway graffiti.
    
    No question, it has degraded cars' surfaces, helping kill cars before
    their time and diverting resources that could have helped make the
    system better. Also, most of it, especially nowadays, is ugly and
    pointless, a bunch of nondescript name scribbles interrupting formerly
    pleasant-looking surfaces and obscuring signs, window views, etc., all
    without adding anything aesthetically -- or even trying to. Now that
    the cars are kept free of painted graffiti, formerly spray-can toting
    vandals have turned to scratching and scuffing their illegible tags
    onto surfaces. Memo to said vandals: Do the words "Get a life" mean
    anything to you?
    
    But I do have a few fond memories of those whole-car-length graffiti
    murals of yesterdecade -- I vaguely remember seeing one heavily
    painted train enshrined in the opening credits of the "Welcome Back
    Kotter" TV show (OK, I know you're all familiar with this shot). The
    people who painted those murals were, I think, as committed to making
    subway cars look purty, in their own chaotic way, as the folks who
    brought us the World's Fair blues-- even though the graffiti artists
    were infinitely more egotistical.
    
    But then, what artist isn't?
    
    Just my two cents.
    
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NEXT>8096
PREVIOUS>7978
POSTER>
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SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station,
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:34 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the
    City Hall Station, Anyway? posted by DB on January 07, 1998 at
    19:35:59:
    
    Sorry. I left out the word "masonry". City Hall is, as noted,
    literally "brick on brick" (actually stone). The only steel is in the
    clock tower.
    
    I caught this as I read the posting but thought I'd wait to see if
    someone picked up on it. Thanks for doing so.
    
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NEXT>8020
PREVIOUS>8011
POSTER>Bobw 
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SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) One More Time
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:38 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 08, 1998 at 20:45:07:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars)
    One More Time posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 08, 1998 at
    17:11:56:
    
    Also, keep in mind that the original subway went around City Hall, not
    directly under it (this didn't happen until 1936). Thus, the trip
    between 15th and 13th was about three times as long back then.
    
    The Peco Energy building (formerly Phila Electric), not PGE, is what
    occupies the old portal at 24th.
    
    Back in 1907, much as it is today, Market St was Phila's main street
    for shopping, and the close spacing of subway stops reflected this
    busy area. It would be hard to imagine stops being much further apart
    nowadays. If you observe 15th in the peak hours you will get an idea
    of how crowded some of these further-spaced stops might be. An
    off-again, on-again proposal to build a new stop at 20th to relieve
    15th and 30th (about the only thing that the subway hasn't
    accommodated in the past 90 years is the growth of high-rises on
    Market St west of 15th) could rise again, but it's awfully expensive.
    
    I agree that signage could be better. When I ride the El (and it's not
    all that frequent), and even the subway-surface (more frequent), I'm
    quite happy that I know where I'm going. Even the new attempts to
    provide better signage haven't really been very effective. One thing
    that helps on the trolleys is the PA system. The M-4's will have both
    this and visual annunciators so folks shouldn't get lost as easily in
    the future.
    
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NEXT>8083
PREVIOUS>8019
POSTER>DB 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) One More Time
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:41 1998
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Posted by DB on January 08, 1998 at 21:03:57:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars)
    One More Time posted by Bobw on January 08, 1998 at 20:45:07:
    
    Instead of a new station at 20th, why not expand the Green Lines' 19
    or 22nd station to blue line service... this would still be costly,
    but I would imagine cheaper than a whole new excavation project.
    
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NEXT>8026
PREVIOUS>8008
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:43 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on January 08, 1998 at 21:23:50:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA
    posted by Todd Glickman on January 08, 1998 at 16:37:04:
    
    I know that the Ashmont-Mattapan line is an extension of the Red Line.
    But if it is part of the Green Line, why doesn't it appear Green on
    the map?
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mike 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>What NYCT bus changes are going to take effect for the March 98 pick.
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:47 1998
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Posted by Mike on January 08, 1998 at 21:26:58:

   I would like to know what NYCT bus changes are going to take effect
    for the March 98 pick like adding more service on selected routes,
    extended routes, restructing routes, new bus routes & etc. Please post
    it.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7981
POSTER>Dan Schwartz 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:49 1998
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Posted by Dan Schwartz on January 08, 1998 at 21:34:36:

   In Reply to: [8]Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by Jim
    Davis on January 03, 1998 at 12:03:02:
    
    I don't think spending the surplus on access for the disabled is an
    effective way to use it. The number of disabled (i.e. wheelchair-bound
    or otherwise unable to use stairs) people who would use the subways in
    any event is quite small. Those with such disabilities are able to use
    the "Access-a-ride" program, where they essentially get taxi service
    for the price of a subway ride. The cost to provide each ride is
    relatively high, but it is still less than would be the cost of
    retrofitting the whole subway system for disabled access, divided by
    the number of rides such disabled people would take.
    
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NEXT>8079
PREVIOUS>7984
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-36 Performance
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:52 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on January 08, 1998 at 21:55:21:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: R-36 Performance posted by Charles Fiori on
    January 08, 1998 at 07:50:59:
    
    I noticed that some of the Flushing cars are not equipped with an air
    conditioning unit. The original fans are still in place, and that
    bulky A/C unit is not there, likewise the two fat poles that support
    it. The lighting that runs along the center of the ceiling is still
    there in it's entirety, and interior basically looks pretty much
    unchanged. Why were some of these cars not retrofitted with air
    conditioning?
    
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NEXT>8080
PREVIOUS>8014
POSTER>Lefty 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived!
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:54 1998
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Posted by Lefty on January 08, 1998 at 21:56:39:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived! posted
    by Philip Nasadowski on January 08, 1998 at 19:17:05:
    
    i listened to the whole 2600 real audio thing.. botu an hour and then
    some long i think.. very interesting.. reccomended listening for
    anyone who reads this board.. www.hope.net click on "metrocard panel"
    
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NEXT>8029
PREVIOUS>8021
POSTER>Joe-m 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:56 1998
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Posted by Joe-m on January 08, 1998 at 22:08:20:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA
    posted by Bootsy on January 08, 1998 at 21:23:50:
    
    
    Is it because the equipment is streetcar AKA light rail not Rappid
    tranist?
    
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NEXT>8141
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Dave 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Metro-North
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:58 1998
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Posted by Dave on January 08, 1998 at 22:34:53:

   I was riding Metro-North out of Grand Central and I wondered why there
    is a green flashing light. What is this suppose to mean?
    I also notice two red lights, one on top and one on the bottom. Both
    go on only when a train is in the block.Anyone know what this means?
    
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NEXT>8158
PREVIOUS>7979
POSTER>Philip Dominguez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Leaves on the line
DATE>Jan 12 14:13:59 1998
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Posted by Philip Dominguez on January 08, 1998 at 22:42:59:

   In Reply to: [7]Leaves on the line posted by Tim Hall on January 07,
    1998 at 08:32:21:
    
    The Brighton Line suffers from a leaf problem in the fall. Its not to
    bad on the flat portions but between ave. H and Newkirk Ave. going
    down the hill their is a 10 mile-an-hour limit. The R-68's have
    problems going up the hill and don't get to more than 20 mph unless
    the tracks are in perfect condition in which they will reach about 25
    mph at most.
    
    
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NEXT>8142
PREVIOUS>8026
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA
DATE>Jan 12 14:14:02 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on January 08, 1998 at 22:44:53:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA
    posted by Bootsy on January 08, 1998 at 21:23:50:
    
    The Mattapan-Ashmont line is publicly part of the Red Line, as it
    extends the heavy rail rapid transit line that terminates in Ashmont.
    However, since it is operated by light rail trolleys (PCCs), it is
    operationally part of the Green Line, in that the operators are
    trained by and supervised by the Green Line; the tracks and overhead
    are maintained by the Green Line, etc.
    
    I suppose it was thought that having a Green Line extension of a Red
    Line route would be confusion, especially this segment is nowhere near
    the rest of the Green Line.
    
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NEXT>8186
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mystery 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Thanks -- Re: SEPTA Question (M-4's)
DATE>Jan 12 14:14:05 1998
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Posted by Mystery on January 08, 1998 at 23:33:05:

   In Reply to: [7]Thanks -- Re: SEPTA Question (the MFL and Trolleys)
    posted by DB on January 08, 1998 at 17:39:22:
    
    Do the M-4's have Transverse Cabs?
    Does Philly plan on having OPTO like NY?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7207
POSTER>BJ 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
DATE>Jan 23 09:08:30 1998
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Posted by BJ on December 15, 1997 at 21:02:21:

   Will Nyc or Chicago ever get the high speed subways like BART?
    
    There are some express routes where the trains could reach 70 or 80
    and stay at that speed for a few minutes.
    
    Most of the subway portions have stations to close, but on elevateds
    or ground level some stations are spaced far apart.
    
    Is it safe to travel Elevated at such a high speed level?
    
    Will Nyc or Chicago ever invest in this technology, maybe after the
    turn of the century? And also maybe computer controlled trains? ( That
    acually run on time!)
    
    Thanks
    
    BJ
    
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NEXT>8041
PREVIOUS>7305
POSTER>Mike 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
DATE>Jan 23 09:08:32 1998
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Posted by Mike on December 20, 1997 at 16:27:27:

   I have noticed that there are future IRT numbers that are on the R62A
    curtains. They are #8(Green), #10(Green), #11(Purple), #12(Green) &
    #13(Red). I would like to know from anyone if they know what these
    numbers were supposed to be used for, please post it.
    
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NEXT>8034
PREVIOUS>7265
POSTER>a R68A passenger 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q
DATE>Jan 23 09:08:35 1998
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Posted by a R68A passenger on December 20, 1997 at 20:24:45:

   In Reply to: [8]R-68As going back to the Q posted by Steve on December
    20, 1997 at 19:54:48:
    
    The Bs and Qs will re-swap equipment because of complains from the
    Brighton Line riders?
    
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NEXT>8035
PREVIOUS>8033
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q
DATE>Jan 23 09:08:37 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 20, 1997 at 23:22:26:

   In Reply to: [8]R-68As going back to the Q posted by Steve on December
    20, 1997 at 19:54:48:
    
    
    I'll guess that the switch is being made due to all the complaints
    from Q riders ... not that they ever had a real reason to complain,
    but that's another story.
    
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NEXT>8036
PREVIOUS>8034
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q
DATE>Jan 23 09:08:39 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 21, 1997 at 00:13:21:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by a R68A
    passenger on December 20, 1997 at 20:24:45:
    
    The question was meant to be rhetorical
    
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NEXT>8038
PREVIOUS>8035
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q
DATE>Jan 23 09:08:42 1998
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Posted by Adam on December 21, 1997 at 10:22:28:

   In Reply to: [8]R-68As going back to the Q posted by Steve on December
    20, 1997 at 19:54:48:
    
    I have 2 questions:
    1)What is the difference between the R68 and the R68A's?
    2)Does this mean that the R32's and the slant 40's are all going to be
    on the N line? I took the N train last night and to my surprise both
    ways I was riding in an R32 while I am used to the R68's. Have they
    changed the car assignments for the N train lately?
    
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NEXT>8039
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mike Rothenberg 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q (Complaints?)
DATE>Jan 23 09:08:45 1998
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Posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 21, 1997 at 12:21:21:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Peter Rosa on
    December 20, 1997 at 23:22:26:
    
    Why should the MTA respond to Q/Brighton complainers and move train
    types around? B/WestEnders didn't complain with the ones the Q's
    are comlaining about. Are the B/WE'rs just unsophisticated or better
    citizens who aren't prima-donnas? And the B/WE's had them for years.
    What's the reason for Q'ers to complain?
    
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NEXT>8040
PREVIOUS>8036
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q
DATE>Jan 23 09:08:47 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 21, 1997 at 16:22:18:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Adam on
    December 21, 1997 at 10:22:28:
    
    The basic differences between R-68s and R-68As are all cosmetic. From
    a mechanical standpoint, they are virtually identical. The only
    significant difference is that the R-68s have New York Air Brake brake
    equipment while the R-68As use WABCO. This gives the R-68 a decided
    edge in the braking department. The only other mechanical difference
    is that the R-68As have been linked into 4-car consists while the
    R-68s are (at least for now) single car units....
    
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NEXT>8043
PREVIOUS>8037
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q (Complaints?)
DATE>Jan 23 09:08:49 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 21, 1997 at 16:33:07:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q (Complaints?) posted by
    Mike Rothenberg on December 21, 1997 at 12:21:21:
    
    The MTA is a public agency and as such responds to public pressure.
    This is not the first time public pressure (or political pressure) has
    led to a decission which is not in the best interests of the greater
    segment of the public. Look back a few years when Ruth messenger
    forced the TA to permit open baby strollers onto trains. The safety
    issue was completely disregarded in favor of the more politically
    correct 'woman's issue'. This is not unique to the MTA - every public
    agency is sensative to public pressure. Brighton Beachers are just
    better bitchers.
    
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NEXT>8044
PREVIOUS>8038
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q
DATE>Jan 23 09:08:52 1998
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Posted by Eric B on December 21, 1997 at 17:56:53:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Steve on
    December 21, 1997 at 16:22:18:
    
    The R-68A's also have a less reflective wall, making the cars a bit
    dimmer. The full width cab doors slide while in the R-68, they swing
    inward.
    
    
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NEXT>8048
PREVIOUS>8032
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
DATE>Jan 23 09:08:54 1998
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Posted by Eric B on December 21, 1997 at 18:11:11:

   In Reply to: [7]Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
    posted by Mike on December 20, 1997 at 16:27:27:
    
    Amended:
    >I've heard rumors about these numbers before, and from what I heard,
    the 8 is supposed to be the express, another number is supposed to be
    the exp to 238/241, and the other numbers are supposed to be routes
    with different terminal combinations-- 148th-Flatbush, etc.
    
    ADDITION: I just looked again at your post. If the 11 is purple, that
    must be the Flushing express. The green 10 must be the Bronx thru-exp,
    the red 13 is probably 148-Flatbush The green 12, I believe goes from
    Woodlawn to somewhere, probably Flatbush.
    
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NEXT>8065
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.(Amended answer)
DATE>Jan 23 09:08:56 1998
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Posted by Eric B on December 21, 1997 at 18:11:54:

   In Reply to: [7]Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
    posted by Mike on December 20, 1997 at 16:27:27:
    
    Amended:
    >I've heard rumors about these numbers before, and from what I heard,
    the 8 is supposed to be the express, another number is supposed to be
    the exp to 238/241, and the other numbers are supposed to be routes
    with different terminal combinations-- 148th-Flatbush, etc.
    
    ADDITION: I just looked again at your post. If the 11 is purple, that
    must be the Flushing express. The green 10 must be the Bronx thru-exp,
    the red 13 is probably 148-Flatbush The green 12, I believe goes from
    Woodlawn to somewhere, probably Flatbush.
    
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NEXT>8056
PREVIOUS>8039
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q (Complaints?)
DATE>Jan 23 09:08:58 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 21, 1997 at 21:28:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q (Complaints?) posted by
    Steve on December 21, 1997 at 16:33:07:
    
    Yes, I remember when the BB'ers bitched and moaned when the then-new
    R-46s were transferred onto the Brighton Line ... the Rockwell Trucks,
    at the time, were claimed to be causing too much vibration .....
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8045
PREVIOUS>8040
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:00 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 21, 1997 at 21:31:48:

   In Reply to: [8]R-68As going back to the Q posted by Steve on December
    20, 1997 at 19:54:48:
    
    You mean, after Christmas (gulp!) I won't be able to enjoy the cab
    view of the Brighton Line again??
    
    Where's the *#&*(#&) grinch, I'll run him over myself :)
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8046
PREVIOUS>8044
POSTER>GarfieldA 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:02 1998
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Posted by GarfieldA on December 21, 1997 at 22:06:05:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Steve on
    December 21, 1997 at 16:22:18:
    
    What's the big deal ?? Honestly, I prefer the interior of the now
    Q-trains. The idea of bench seats are what I think better than bucket
    seats.
    
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NEXT>8047
PREVIOUS>8045
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:04 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 21, 1997 at 23:53:45:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Eric B on
    December 21, 1997 at 17:56:53:
    
    As I said - Cosmetic differences
    
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NEXT>8051
PREVIOUS>8046
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:06 1998
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Posted by Adam on December 22, 1997 at 00:28:42:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Steve on
    December 21, 1997 at 23:53:45:
    
    Steve, thanks for answering my questions. But I am not very familiar
    with the different types of cars and their names. I wish that the
    Transit Museum would have a workshop where they went around and
    examined each different type of car so people like myself can finally
    learn all the names of them. I try to tell from pictures on this site
    but it's really hard for some of them, especially the R68 and the
    R68A. Are the seats arranged in a similar manner in both?
    Also, one more question: Where are the slant 40's assigned? I've only
    seen one on the N train and that was a while back.
    Thanks a lot to Steve and everybody for being so helpful and answering
    the many questions I have sometimes! Merry Christmas, Happy Chanukah,
    and Happy Kwaanza to all at Subtalk and may you all have a warm
    holiday season.
    --Adam
    
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NEXT>8049
PREVIOUS>8041
POSTER>IRT 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:08 1998
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Posted by IRT on December 22, 1997 at 08:12:33:

   In Reply to: [7]Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
    posted by Mike on December 20, 1997 at 16:27:27:
    
    The curtain sign colors adhere to the following key on the IRT-
    Green = Lexington Avenue (4,5,6,(8,10,12))
    Red = 7 Avenue / Broadway (1,2,9,(13))
    Purple = Flushing line (7,(11))
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>8050
PREVIOUS>8048
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:10 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 22, 1997 at 14:54:20:

   In Reply to: [8]Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
    posted by Mike on December 20, 1997 at 16:27:27:
    
    Mike, next time you or anyone else sees this type of thing, see if you
    can figure out who the manufacturer of the sign was. Just wondering,
    where did you see the other numbers, or do you have a crank in your
    pocket??? ;-)
    
    If the B Div. abandoned double letters, why would the A div go to 2
    digit numbers? Also, does anyone know if these are the original
    curtains or recent retrofits? The originals wre egetting a bit steel
    dust-y.
    
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NEXT>8053
PREVIOUS>8049
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:12 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 22, 1997 at 15:52:35:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
    posted by Charles Fiori on December 22, 1997 at 14:54:20:
    
    What's wrong with two digit numbers? There are only nine digits
    besides zero to work with in base ten, unless you want to go to
    hexadecimal... then how would you differentiate between the IND A and
    the IRT hexadecimal A, which would represent (9+1) in hex???
    
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NEXT>8059
PREVIOUS>8047
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:14 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on December 22, 1997 at 17:06:29:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Adam on
    December 22, 1997 at 00:28:42:
    
    Personally, I can't tell the difference between an R-68 and R-68A.
    Whatever cosmetic difference there is must be extremely minute
    [my-NUTE].
    
    The R-40 slants were assigned mostly to the B (the entire fleet
    assigned to the B was R-40 slants), and a few were on the N and L.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q\Distinguishing bet R-68/68A
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:17 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on December 23, 1997 at 10:08:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Bootsy on
    December 22, 1997 at 17:06:29:
    
    There are very small (and few) visual differences between the R-68 and
    R-68A. I can distinguish between the two immediately, but the easiest
    way to tell them apart is by their fleet numbers (R-68 2500-2924,
    R-68A 5001-5200), The crew cab's door (R68's swing, while R-68A's
    slide), and even by the windows. If you look closely, the section the
    tilts in seems to be a bit larger on the R-68A.
    
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NEXT>8054
PREVIOUS>8050
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:19 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 23, 1997 at 10:57:02:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
    posted by Timothy Speer on December 22, 1997 at 15:52:35:
    
    Tim, you did not see my tongue firmly implanted in my cheek, I guess.
    Although I did hear a rumor that the IRT was going to renumber its
    lines according to a base 2 system. That was right after I heard about
    the IRT using roman numerals, not only for its lines, but also for its
    station signs... You are on a northbound III. Change at LXXIId for the
    uptown I local to CCXLII.
    
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NEXT>8055
PREVIOUS>8053
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:21 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 11:33:46:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
    posted by Charles Fiori on December 23, 1997 at 10:57:02:
    
    Binary train numbers? I can see it now: the 1 stays the same, the 2
    becomes the 10, the 3 becomes the 11, the 4 the 100, etc...
    AAAAAAAAAARGH!
    
    But Roman Numerals? I like that idea!!! Why not?
    
    Maybe we should stop giving IRT trains numbers, and stop giving
    IND/BMT trains letters. We could then use an alphanumeric system based
    loosely on the Library of Congress system.
    
    Honestly -- thanks for the response. I got a great laugh from it -- so
    big, in fact, that my coworkers must suspect I am not working on the
    Document and Data Control procedure that I should have finished last
    week.
    
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NEXT>8057
PREVIOUS>8054
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:23 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 23, 1997 at 12:24:29:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
    posted by Timothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 11:33:46:
    
    Extend the Dewey Decimal system to subways??
    
    If you do ever come across the mfr. of these signs, I would love to
    hear about it. I have a sample of the current front and Side dests. &
    routes from the rebuilt 40-42s, but nothing from the 62s...
    
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NEXT>8060
PREVIOUS>8043
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q (Complaints?)
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:25 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 23, 1997 at 12:50:26:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: R-68As going back to the Q (Complaints?) posted by
    Mark S Feinman on December 21, 1997 at 21:28:22:
    
    The Rockwell trucks only started vibrating once they started cracking,
    which happened around 1980. They had run exclusively on the E&F&N, and
    when enough of them were O/S due to cracked trucks, the fleet was
    transferred to Pitkin, where they could run on the CC, during rush
    hours only. The move to put R46s on Brighton was indeed short-lived,
    due to the vibrating trucks rumbling on the embankment. Also,
    remember, that the R44s at that time made R11s look reliable as they
    only made it about 5,000 miles between breakdowns. All in all, you
    could see how heinous a job it was to make service on the IND in those
    days.
    
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NEXT>8058
PREVIOUS>8055
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:27 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 15:36:10:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
    posted by Charles Fiori on December 23, 1997 at 12:24:29:
    
    How about "theme" trains? 6th Ave could be the philosophy lines, 8th
    Ave can be economics, Queens Blvd. can be anthropology, Brighton can
    be math...
    
    
    
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NEXT>8064
PREVIOUS>8057
POSTER>Christopher Rivera 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:29 1998
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Posted by Christopher Rivera on December 23, 1997 at 19:11:46:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
    posted by Charles Fiori on December 22, 1997 at 14:54:20:
    
    TIME OUT! Now the double digts were supposed to be used in the 1960s
    because the double leters would be confusing. And the 4,5,6 lines
    don't need 2 more lines and where would they go same for the rest of
    the lines. The 7 line is a one train line and it will remain that way
    and where would they find the space for and elevated line in Queens?
    Try to find that out for me.
    
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NEXT>8061
PREVIOUS>8051
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:31 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 23, 1997 at 22:18:42:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Adam on
    December 22, 1997 at 00:28:42:
    
    currently 200 R-40 Slants are assigned to the Q and 24 to the L. After
    the B/Q swap, it will be 160 on the B, 40 on the N and 24 on the L. As
    for the R-68/68A, the seats are virtually identical
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8056
POSTER>Mike Rothenberg 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q (Complaints?)
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:35 1998
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Posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 24, 1997 at 08:42:20:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q (Complaints?) posted by
    Steve on December 21, 1997 at 16:33:07:
    
    A compliment to Steve for his humorous presentation. Too bad the MTA
    responds
    to whiners, and doesn't do what may be best on a system-wide basis.
    
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NEXT>8062
PREVIOUS>8059
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:37 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 24, 1997 at 09:53:00:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Steve on
    December 23, 1997 at 22:18:42:
    
    Those of you who regularly visit this site know my major interest is
    signs.
    It seems that the differences between the 2 contracts may include the
    side destination signs. One has lkarge letters on one line and the
    other has smaller letters on 2 lines. Such as:
    
    205 Street Bronx vs. 205 Street
    Bronx
    
    &
    
    Brighton Beach vs. Brighton Beach
    Brooklyn
    
    As cars have been around, I am sure the distinction has become
    blurred.
    
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NEXT>8063
PREVIOUS>8061
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:40 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 24, 1997 at 10:34:01:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Charles Fiori
    on December 24, 1997 at 09:53:00:
    
    I sure do have a tough time telling the difference...
    
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NEXT>8067
PREVIOUS>8062
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:42 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on December 24, 1997 at 11:14:54:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Charles Fiori
    on December 24, 1997 at 09:53:00:
    
    Yes, you're right - it has become somewhat blurred as a few R-68's now
    have the sign with the large letters. Also the first ten R68A's
    (5001-5010)were delivered with the same signs (small letters/numbers)
    as the R-68's have.
    
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NEXT>8066
PREVIOUS>8058
POSTER>Lefty 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:44 1998
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Posted by Lefty on December 24, 1997 at 17:14:46:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
    posted by Timothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 15:36:10:
    
    i always wanted all trains that arrive at yankee stadium around game
    time to be painted in pinstripes......
    
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NEXT>8068
PREVIOUS>8042
POSTER>Christopher Rivera 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.(Amended answer)
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:46 1998
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Posted by Christopher Rivera on December 24, 1997 at 17:40:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A
    curtains.(Amended answer) posted by Eric B on December 21, 1997 at
    18:11:54:
    
    The 7 and the 4 train don't need an express train and the train would
    have to be like the 5 train to Manhattan AM to To Bronx PM. A line
    from Woodlawn to Flatbush but the 5 train would have to be re-routed
    and that would make people very mad. Where would they find the Money
    also. If I would the MTA president I would have those train go from
    241 Street to Coney Island or the 11 train would go fom Fulshing to
    South Ferry. We have to use these lines to an advantage begin a
    project that I wanted to happen it is called the T.B.T Tri-brough
    transit it may have numbers but it will connect IRT train lines with
    BMT lines even sharing the same platform. The Bronx has enough lines
    as it is thay should put more lines further into Queens like the
    boarder between Long Island and Queens. What do you think?
    
    
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NEXT>8069
PREVIOUS>8064
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:49 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on December 24, 1997 at 22:02:16:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
    posted by Lefty on December 24, 1997 at 17:14:46:
    
    Wouldn't that be nice?
    That could easily be done with the Redbirds - -- - come to think of
    it, they should be painted according to the season or holiday -- they
    are perfect for Christmas and Valentine's Day (although some should be
    painted green for Christmas). During the baseball season, the ones
    assigned to the #4 could be painted in Yankee colors, the ones
    assigned to the #7 in Mets colors.
    Independence Day weekend, the could be painted in red, white and blue.
    St. Patrick;s Day -- green
    
    You get the idea.
    
    
    
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NEXT>8073
PREVIOUS>8063
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:51 1998
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Posted by Eric B on December 24, 1997 at 23:26:13:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Wayne Johnson
    on December 24, 1997 at 11:14:54:
    
    Also the R-68A's except for the first 10, have the newer letter signs,
    with the orange Q and S, Yellow B,D, & S, replacing (rush hr local
    from Astoria to Whitehall when N runs exp, and over bridge), the
    Nassau special is changed from yellow to brown, and the letters are
    grouped by proximity, where the R-68 sign was alphabetical.
    Replacement signs on the R-68 are the same as the newer ones, but the
    letter is thicker.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8065
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.(Amended answer)
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:55 1998
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Posted by Eric B on December 24, 1997 at 23:36:15:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A
    curtains.(Amended answer) posted by Christopher Rivera on December 24,
    1997 at 17:40:47:
    
    I think these are just numbers they threw on there just in case they
    decided to renumber the alternate routes of some lines. I did hear
    they were seriously considering making the 6 express the 8, but i
    haven't heard about that recently.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8066
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
DATE>Jan 23 09:09:57 1998
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Posted by Adam on December 25, 1997 at 00:18:50:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
    posted by Bootsy on December 24, 1997 at 22:02:16:
    
    You know, I really like this idea with the Mets and the Yankees! I
    think it's a great way to promote team spirit in NYC and also to give
    our subway cars some flare. I hope the TA reads this board!
    
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NEXT>8071
PREVIOUS>7556
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
DATE>Jan 23 09:10:00 1998
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Posted by Adam on December 25, 1997 at 11:23:55:

   In Reply to: [8]The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Steve on
    December 25, 1997 at 01:51:45:
    
    I think that the best subway line is the N train, for a number of
    reasons. First, it offers a unique combination of scenery along its
    route. In Astoria it is an el, in Manhattan it's underground, and in
    Brooklyn it's an open cut. Also, it spans a great distance, going all
    the way from Ditmars in Astoria to Coney Island. Finally, I believe
    it's the safest train because it really doesn't go through any bad
    areas. I feel the most comfortable and enjoyable when I'm on the N
    train.
    As for the worst train, I think that the G takes the cake. It is a
    short, boring line that is probably the slowest in the city. I've
    waited upwards of half an hour for this train. Plus, it goes through
    some rather bad areas in Brooklyn. I would not not reccommend this
    line to anybody.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8070
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
DATE>Jan 23 09:10:12 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 25, 1997 at 15:42:08:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Adam on
    December 25, 1997 at 11:23:55:
    
    I'll agree that the N is one of the better lines. Besides the points
    you've noted, another feature of the N is that it's convenient to many
    places of interest in Manhattan - not long ago, I read a posting to
    the effect that the N (along with the R) is probably the single most
    useful line for tourists.
    I also would give the 7 fairly high marks, though rush hour crowds
    (generally worse than on the N) can be a drawback.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Future IND letters (Was re:future IRT Numbers)
DATE>Jan 23 09:10:16 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on December 26, 1997 at 20:01:19:

   In Reply to: [8]Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
    posted by Mike on December 20, 1997 at 16:27:27:
    
    Are there "extra" letters for B Division (IND/BMT) such as are found
    on the IRT. If so what letters ,colors and if any are " diamonds"
    (such as the IRT 5,7 diamonds)
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8067
POSTER>Shunya 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-68As going back to the Q
DATE>Jan 23 09:10:19 1998
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Posted by Shunya on December 30, 1997 at 18:40:42:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: R-68As going back to the Q posted by Mark S
    Feinman on December 21, 1997 at 21:31:48:
    
    NNNNnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
    nnnnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
    oooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Sorry for being rude, but i cannot stand the R68 and R68A's and
    newer.....
    why move it back to the Q? will the R40's return to the B???
    Shunya
    
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NEXT>8075
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Jeff Hitchens 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>NYW&B
DATE>Jan 23 09:33:55 1998
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Posted by Jeff Hitchens on January 09, 1998 at 01:42:40:

   Anyone needing information concerning the New York, Westchester &
    Boston Railway may send request to dti@dmv.com
    
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NEXT>8116
PREVIOUS>8074
POSTER>Jeff Hitchens 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>NYW&B
DATE>Jan 23 09:33:57 1998
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Posted by Jeff Hitchens on January 09, 1998 at 01:43:13:

   Anyone needing information concerning the New York, Westchester &
    Boston Railway may send request to dti@dmv.com
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8009
POSTER>Gary Gordon 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Transit board
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:01 1998
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Posted by Gary Gordon on January 09, 1998 at 01:58:21:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Transit board posted by David Pirmann - Web site
    host on January 08, 1998 at 16:39:08:
    
    Thanks for the welcome aboard. As I suspect there are probably lurkers
    who are employees. Actually putting your thoughts in cyber/print might
    be viewed as dangerous.
    I'm a "new hire" and not a youngster. After working on the "outside"
    and for myself for many years the MTA made me an offer I couldn't
    refuse.
    I'd like to suggest that the employees might want to start/have a
    board to exchange ideas/insights and miseries ect. There is the ever
    present spectre of the dreaded Personnel Folder. And the pervasive
    feeling that management is out-to-get-me. Well I hope we/you/they can
    get past that stuff.
    
    I'm probably going to take the test for Train Operator. The little
    voice in my head says" Drive the Train".
    
    One of the strangest feelings I had during Track School was flagging a
    train to stop. I'd been taught (wisely) that you should stay far away
    from a moving train and that you can't stop a moving train. Well there
    I was, vest and hand lamp, clearing up for a fast express with about
    18" to spare.
    The next one that came through I made sure I was next in line to flag.
    And the train stopped as planned. WHEW!!!.
    
    I enjoy the job so far,but they still call me "new meat" Check back in
    3-5 years!!!
    
    So any Motor-persons out there let me hear from you. How's your job?
    
    Gary
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7997
POSTER>Gary Gordon 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Barricades coming down
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:03 1998
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Posted by Gary Gordon on January 09, 1998 at 02:09:28:

   In Reply to: [8]Barricades coming down posted by Peter Rosa on January
    08, 1998 at 10:42:30:
    
    As of 12:10, or 00:10 as the TA like to call it, CBS/88 had His Honor
    saying that the chief of police would have a statement saying to the
    effect that they were not infact coming down. When asked if that meant
    they were permanent, Rudy's reply was that very little is permanent in
    NY as it is always evolving. And so on and so on.
    
    
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NEXT>8082
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:08 1998
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Posted by Timothy on January 09, 1998 at 04:55:10:

   I've noticed that on many of New York's elevated stations, the
    platforms
    are surrounded by these ugly corrugated steel walls, instead of
    railings.
    Can anyone tell me why those walls were installed? I know that they
    are
    not part of the original station's architecture. I feel that those
    walls
    took away much of the original character of the stations.
    
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NEXT>8081
PREVIOUS>8024
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-36 Performance
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:10 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 09, 1998 at 08:25:03:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: R-36 Performance posted by Bootsy on January 08,
    1998 at 21:55:21:
    
    Check next time that these were not the R33 single units, which the 7
    line needs to make up the 11-car trains. Don't really understand why,
    if R62s can be delivered as single units and have a/c, why the R33s,
    when reconditioned, could not be equipped as such. Also, anyone know,
    but is the 7 line 11 cars all the time? I remember years ago, they
    would run midday 8s, with a 3-car "butt" waiting at Main St. at about
    2:30-3:00 in the afternoon. Also, I know on off hours, you would see
    5-car trains.
    
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NEXT>8250
PREVIOUS>8025
POSTER>Lou from Middletown 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived!
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:13 1998
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Posted by Lou from Middletown on January 09, 1998 at 09:15:42:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived! posted
    by Nick on January 08, 1998 at 11:23:49:
    
    To give a historical perspective on this, I think it is fair(fare?) to
    point out that when the TA introduced the 15 cent token back in 1953,
    they discovered that people were using a small German(I think) coin
    that was worth about 3 cents and was the exact same size, weight, etc
    as the new token. Which only goes to show- the more things change, the
    more they stay the same! Only the details change.....
    
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NEXT>8111
PREVIOUS>8079
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-36 Performance
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:14 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 09, 1998 at 09:41:48:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: R-36 Performance posted by Charles Fiori on
    January 09, 1998 at 08:25:03:
    
    Anytime I'm in the area the #7 usually is operating with 11 car trains
    (10 in the summer). I haven't seen it operating with shorter trains in
    years. Other than late night shuttles, I haven't seen an IRT train
    operating with less than 10 cars (or 9 cars for the #3) in a long
    time.
    
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NEXT>8088
PREVIOUS>8078
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:16 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 09, 1998 at 09:51:21:

   In Reply to: [7]Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted
    by Timothy on January 09, 1998 at 04:55:10:
    
    I believe it is to prevent people from throwing things over the side
    onto the street.
    
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NEXT>8084
PREVIOUS>8020
POSTER>Carl M. rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) One More Time
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:18 1998
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Posted by Carl M. rabbin on January 09, 1998 at 09:56:55:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars)
    One More Time posted by Bobw on January 08, 1998 at 20:45:07:
    
    My age is showing. Back when I went to college in Philadelphia, PECo
    was the Philadelphia Gas & Electric Company.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8083
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars) One More Time
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:20 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 09, 1998 at 10:03:07:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars)
    One More Time posted by DB on January 08, 1998 at 21:03:57:
    
    I don't get it. What is so difficult about walking up a small flight
    of stairs from the local line and down a smaller flight to the express
    line? At 13th Street, it's even shorter, just one flight up or down.
    People on the Lexington Avenue line north of 42 St do it all the time.
    People in Philadelphia have been doing it for 75 years. I would rather
    they spent the money building extensions or increasing service than
    trying to get direct MFSE service between 30 and 15. Also the Subway
    Surface Cars run so frequently, about every 2-3 minutes in the middle
    of the day, that I think that service is preferable to MFSE. When I'm
    in Philadelphia and want to go from 15 to 30, I always take the cars.
    There is almost no wait. Even in the middle of the night the combined
    lines run every 10 minutes (3 lines at 1/2 hour intervals each).
    
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NEXT>8110
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>aaron 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>position light signals
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:22 1998
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Posted by aaron on January 09, 1998 at 10:05:55:

   Last night travelling home on LIRR, I overheard engineer telling
    brakeman
    that there were 42 different sets of position light combinations. Is
    there
    any book around that documents each one of these combinations? I only
    know about 10 different sets.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8013
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Thanks -- Re: SEPTA Question (the MFL and Trolleys)
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:24 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 09, 1998 at 10:16:05:

   In Reply to: [7]Thanks -- Re: SEPTA Question (the MFL and Trolleys)
    posted by DB on January 08, 1998 at 17:39:22:
    
    Not to belabor it, but the sole purpose of A/B service is have a train
    not stop quite so often on its run, so the trains can complete their
    service faster. All A-only and B-only stations have 1/2 the service
    but each ride is faster. Having all-stop trains interleaved just
    increases the chance of backups on the line.
    
    A and B apparently are all that is needed. Here's why:
    
    Let's pretend that there are no AB stops and that all relevant travel
    time is dwell time, not inter-station time. Having A and B service
    cuts the dwell time of each train in half, so a 20-minute ride would
    become a 10-minute ride (remember, this is idealized to make the
    numbers stand out more). If you then have A & B & C service a
    20-minute ride gets cut to a 7-minute ride (1/3 the time). The
    difference between 10 and 7 minutes in our idealized system is not
    that great to justify confusing people with 3 types of service. If we
    then throw in the (real-world)travel time between stations, AB(C)
    stops just makes the numbers get even closer together, and at the same
    time making the wait time between trains even longer. Throw in some
    all-stop trains to make the line even more crowded and you've lost all
    advantages.
    
    Anyway, I would agree that there should be more A/B service on the
    line to make it meaningful again. Maybe start it earlier and run it
    later each day, maybe make 34 and 56 A stops, restore A-B to 2nd St.
    and Spring Garden St., etc. But major changes other than adding
    service and skipped stations would not be useful.
    
    
    (Ain't I a party pooper?)
    
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NEXT>8089
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Plus que ca change, plus que c'est la meme chose
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:27 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 09, 1998 at 10:17:38:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived! posted
    by Lou from Middletown on January 09, 1998 at 09:15:42:
    
    When the token with the hollowed-out pentagonal center came out (or
    was it the 'bull's eye'?), I remember that some genius figured out
    that the Connecticut Turnpike tokens, at the time which were worth 17
    1/2 cents, could work in turnstiles, when the fare was $1. (This would
    have been 1983 or so). They noticed at Grand Central that a lot of
    these Connecticut tokens were showing up (no surprise there) and so
    ran a sting and caught some suits who easily could have afforded full
    fare...I remember saying to a friend (I was at Columbia B-school at
    the time) that their next move was going to be to try and catch the
    riders coming northbound in the p.m.'s. Sure enough, next day there
    was a sting and they caught a bunch of people at Bowling Green and
    Wall St. on the Lex. The diameter on the TA and Conn. tokens was
    different enough that they could set the tolerance on the mechanical
    turnstiles to only accept the TA tokens. (Something like .89in vs. .90
    in.)
    
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NEXT>8094
PREVIOUS>8082
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:31 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 09, 1998 at 10:59:55:

   In Reply to: [8]Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted
    by Timothy on January 09, 1998 at 04:55:10:
    
    On the Astoria N line with which I am familiar, there is corrugated
    metal on most of the platform but towards one or both of the ends of
    the station, depending on which station you are talking about, there
    is just railing. Besides preventing people from throwing things off of
    the station, I think it is also needed to support a roof too. The ends
    of the platforms are not covered with roofs.
    
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NEXT>8105
PREVIOUS>8087
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Plus que ca change, plus que c'est la meme chose
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:33 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 09, 1998 at 11:04:39:

   In Reply to: [7]Plus que ca change, plus que c'est la meme chose
    posted by Charles Fiori on January 09, 1998 at 10:17:38:
    
    Keep in mind that among the "suits", any kind of chisleing practice is
    considered to be a demonstration of career development potential, as
    in "Wow, if he'd stick his neck out do that to the TA, imagine what
    he'd be willing to do to our customers!"
    
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NEXT>8091
PREVIOUS>7835
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Wheel flange to Rail clearance (repost)
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:35 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 09, 1998 at 11:37:54:

   In Reply to: [7]Wheel flange to Rail clearance (repost) posted by
    Timothy Speer on January 05, 1998 at 10:39:32:
    
    It doesn't look like you are going to get an answer to this question
    from this source, so let me try to point you in another direction. The
    clearance you refer to is not measured directly, but is controlled by
    two other measurements, the wheel guage and the track guage. As you
    suspected, the track guage is widened on tight curves. There are
    formulas or tables for this in various publications, such as the AREA
    spec book.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8090
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Wheel flange to Rail clearance (repost)
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:37 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 09, 1998 at 11:38:29:

   In Reply to: [7]Wheel flange to Rail clearance (repost) posted by
    Timothy Speer on January 05, 1998 at 10:39:32:
    
    It doesn't look like you are going to get an answer to this question
    from this source, so let me try to point you in another direction. The
    clearance you refer to is not measured directly, but is controlled by
    two other measurements, the wheel guage and the track guage. As you
    suspected, the track guage is widened on tight curves. There are
    formulas or tables for this in various publications, such as the AREA
    spec book.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7807
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Bent arm Vs Diamond pantagraphs....
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:39 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 09, 1998 at 11:57:21:

   In Reply to: [7]Bent arm Vs Diamond pantagraphs.... posted by Philip
    Nasadowski on January 04, 1998 at 15:32:32:
    
    The "Bent arm" type you refer to is called a Faivley Pantograph. The
    idea behind them is simplicity, leading hopefully to reduced
    maintenance and less damage in case of a snag. The important
    consideration in choosing which pantograph to raise is not which way
    it points, but rather to use the downstream pickup, so that if a given
    car's pan snags, it does not foul the lowered piece of equipment on
    the same car and thus disable the car.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7902
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:41 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 09, 1998 at 12:10:38:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough
    posted by Larry Littlefield on January 05, 1998 at 20:39:43:
    
    I don't suppose this observation will add any light to this
    discussion, but having lived both in Brooklyn and Albany, my opinion
    is that no matter how much money is poured into Albany, it will always
    SUCK compared to THE CITY as a place to live!
    
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NEXT>8099
PREVIOUS>8088
POSTER>jp 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:44 1998
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Posted by jp on January 09, 1998 at 12:12:58:

   In Reply to: [7]Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted
    by Timothy on January 09, 1998 at 04:55:10:
    
    When I was a kid, I remember they were frosted window panes. Am I
    correct in remembering this?
    
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NEXT>8150
PREVIOUS>7767
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 6av watermain break and the PATH trains
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:45 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 09, 1998 at 12:32:47:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: 6av watermain break and the PATH trains posted by
    Bootsy on January 02, 1998 at 22:25:08:
    
    Correct; the express tracks were rock-tunneled into place in 1964 at a
    level several hundred feet below street level at 23rd st. I rode down
    in the muck bucket to inspect the work in those pre-OSHA days, not to
    mention slogging around waist deep in slop wearing hip waders, and
    dodging diesel powered front end loaders in the semi-dark smokey haze.
    An interesting side story; room was tunneled out for stations at 14th
    and 23rd street on the Express line, which would have been ridiculous
    to build, but the local businesses insisted on keeping the option
    open. Are the resulting "caverns" visible from the express trains?
    
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NEXT>8185
PREVIOUS>8018
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station,
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:48 1998
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   In Reply to: [7]SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City
    Hall Station, Anyway? posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 02, 1998 at
    15:38:45:
    
    Your theory behind the platform arrangements at Penn Station is
    thought provoking. When I first noticed it, I reached the conclusion
    that it was done to facilitate direct platform to concourse connection
    with wide corridors and little or no grades, which would not be
    possible from an island platform. I can recall prefering to take a
    downtown local on the 7th avenue line to save time and steps in
    catching an occasional LIRR train. Does anyone know which is the real
    reason, presuming there is one?
    
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NEXT>8525
PREVIOUS>8015
POSTER>Andrew Byler 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars)
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:51 1998
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Posted by Andrew Byler on January 09, 1998 at 13:57:21:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars)
    posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 08, 1998 at 15:04:06:
    
    Thanks for this informative post Carl.
    
    A few additions are in order.
    
    Part of the old portal work for the subway at the riverfront can still
    be seen, but it is cemented over. If you go down to the level of the
    CSX (ex B&O tracks) along the river, and walk under the Market St.
    bridge, you'll see the abutment for Market St., and then, north of
    that, excess concrete work where the MFSE and Subway-Surface lines
    formerly ran.
    
    Even more confusing in comparing the MFSE and the Broad St. is that
    the MFSE is underurnning thrid rail, ala New York Central, while Broad
    St. (and also the Lindenwold line) is standard overrunning third rail.
    
    The Norristown High Speed Line from 69th St. (ex Philadelphia and
    Western) is standard guage, Broad St. profile overrunning third rail.
    This is why it has never been linked to the MFSE.
    
    The long gap from 15th St. to 30th St. has been noticed by SEPTA. A
    Proposal has been kicked around for several years now to build a new
    station between 20th and 21st Sts. to serve the new Commerce Square
    and Blue Cross skyscrapers, and also the Bell Atlantic and Mellon Bank
    towers. This would probably spur enough development to get rid of the
    old XXX Theater down Market St. too. The station would have an island
    platform, necessitating moving one Subway, and one Subway-Surface car
    track outwards (I believe northwards), so that the Subway-Surface cars
    would run in a new track bed, while the subway would take over the
    Subway-Surface right of way. The reason given for this is to eliminate
    the necessity of transferring onto the already overcrowded
    Subway-Surface car lines.
    
    Andy Byler
    
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NEXT>8125
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:53 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 09, 1998 at 14:30:31:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars)
    posted by Andrew Byler on January 09, 1998 at 13:57:21:
    
    Isn't it incredible that there is so much odd stuff about one fairly
    small rail transit system? When I was in college I loved riding the
    system. It's still great, as all our posts have shown. Boston's is
    quirky and varied like this also. But here we've got express service,
    trolley cars, 2 track widths, three types of power intake, AND you can
    look out the front window.
    
    And we haven't even gotten around much to discuss Lindenwold,
    Norristown, Sharon Hill, and Media yet.
    
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NEXT>8101
PREVIOUS>8094
POSTER>Droo 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:55 1998
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Posted by Droo on January 09, 1998 at 14:42:18:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
    posted by Adam on January 09, 1998 at 10:59:55:
    
    When they were doing the #7 line Queens Blvd. reconstruction, they
    took away the corrugated metal walls.. the roof is supposed by beams,
    to which these walls are attached. They do not seem to be necessary
    for the structural integrity of the roof
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>DB 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Last post! (promise)
DATE>Jan 23 09:34:57 1998
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Posted by DB on January 09, 1998 at 15:30:12:

   In Reply to: [7]SEPTA Question (the MFL and Trolleys) posted by DB on
    January 08, 1998 at 13:32:14:
    
    This will be the last post in this thread that I will post
    (promise)...
    
    I personally would just walk to 20th street from where I currently
    live, or take the MFL to 15 and walk up. It was not until someone
    mentioned that the 20th street station was an idea, that I talked
    about it more.
    
    The point of my post was more of a question of the planning, or lack
    there of, in the SEPTA system, and what, if I was the enigneer I
    intend to be with unlimited money, what I would do with SEPTA.
    
    Philly has a great blue line, and it runs pretty well. I agree with
    the idea of expanding it, preferably south, perhaps as a surface train
    along I-95 to serve South Philly and the proposed Riverfront/Penns
    Landing Projects. If this were to ever happen, I would like to see
    this have a different designation color and name. (is "Front Line" too
    war-like?) I have not ridden on the el portions, so I do not know how
    it is set up (maybe I will do a field study tomorrow) but I could see
    Median service the easiest solution, with park and rides easilly
    accessible. Alas, that magic money stands in the way again.
    
    I would like to thank all those who responded.
    
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NEXT>8115
PREVIOUS>8099
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:00 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 09, 1998 at 16:03:25:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
    posted by jp on January 09, 1998 at 12:12:58:
    
    Well, they still have the frosted windows at Queensboro Plaza.
    
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NEXT>8252
PREVIOUS>7959
POSTER>Jon 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:02 1998
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Posted by Jon on January 09, 1998 at 16:05:18:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places
    posted by Bobw on January 06, 1998 at 20:38:20:
    
    I also noticed the NYCTA RTS buses parked in Pennsauken. However, they
    are still there, but in back with the long-distance buses. I'm so glad
    I wasn't the only one to notice this unusual sight!
    
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NEXT>8104
PREVIOUS>7913
POSTER>Rail Fan 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New (sortof)Book
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:04 1998
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Posted by Rail Fan on January 09, 1998 at 16:32:11:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by Adam on January 05,
    1998 at 16:59:59:
    
    How long ago was the book printed because I looked on the
    www.amazon.com website and was not able to find it. When I was at
    www.amazon.com I search for "The Subway: A Trip Through Time On New
    York's Rapid Transit"
    
    What is the price of the book?
    
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NEXT>8109
PREVIOUS>8103
POSTER>Michael S. Buglak 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New (sortof)Book
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:06 1998
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Posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 09, 1998 at 16:42:18:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by Rail Fan on January 09,
    1998 at 16:32:11:
    
    The book was released only in November or December, 1997, AFAIK. The
    price is $29.95. Try searching www.amazon.com by the author's name,
    (Stan Fischler) or the ISBN number (See other posts in this thread).
    Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8089
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Plus que ca change, plus que c'est la meme chose
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:08 1998
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on January 09, 1998 at 17:00:56:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Plus que ca change, plus que c'est la meme chose
    posted by Gary Jacobi on January 09, 1998 at 11:04:39:
    
    That would have been the Bulls-Eye. I've never seen a ConnTP token
    (didn't they tear down their toll booths a few years back?) but I
    could easily see Garden State Parkway tokens making good slugs, but I
    think the weight would be different. GSP tokens have a brass center,
    and the coin is steel, as opposed to the steel center brass token the
    TA used.
    -Hank
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7975
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! (sorry Hank)
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:11 1998
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on January 09, 1998 at 17:06:34:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW
    IT!! (sorry Hank) posted by Peter Rosa on January 07, 1998 at
    11:36:33:
    
    The story about Hylan (H-Y-L-A-N is the correct speelling, DOT!) is
    based in fact. He was (allegedly) studying his law books while working
    for the BMT, and he struck a the coor to a tower, where the tower
    supervisor was stepping out, on a blind curve.
    -Hank
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Separated Expresses and Locals at RR stations (Was SEPTA Stuff)
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:12 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 09, 1998 at 17:20:30:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the
    City Hall Station, Anyway? posted by Gary Jacobi on January 09, 1998
    at 13:37:22:
    
    They also have the locals and expresses separated at Atlantic Avenue
    on the IRT, which is at the LIRR terminal. But, again, either one of
    our explanations could be the reason.
    
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NEXT>8118
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>The more things change, the more they remain the same
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:15 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 09, 1998 at 17:37:11:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Plus que ca change, plus que c'est la meme chose
    posted by Hank Eisenstein on January 09, 1998 at 17:00:56:
    
    Hank they definitely were from the Connecticut Turnpike, before they
    removed the booths. Buying tokens in bulk allowed you to get through
    all the booths for 1/2 price. (Reg. price was 35 cents.). When a spate
    of these things were found at Grand Central, it did not take Stations
    and Transit Police long to figure out what they had to do. One of my
    classmates at the time lived in Connecticut and she was considering
    going out and getting a bagful, but decided to pass after I convinced
    her that it was a bad idea.
    Amazingly, the old mechanical turnstiles could set their tolerances
    pretty thinly, allowing reg. TA tokens to pass but not accepting the
    Connecticuts. When a sting was set-up, they also had turnstile
    maintainers on hand so that if one jammed, it could be easily
    determined if a Connecticut (or other slug) had been inserted, or
    simply a bent or defective TA token. The Connecticuts had the turnpike
    symbol on one side (or maybe it was the ConnDOT symbol, similar to
    that on the front of some M-2s)
    
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NEXT>8117
PREVIOUS>8104
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New (sortof)Book
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:17 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 09, 1998 at 17:39:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by Michael S. Buglak on
    January 09, 1998 at 16:42:18:
    
    The book is not listed in Amazon. I suspect the publisher (H&M
    Productions) is too small to have a distribution agreement with them.
    Try local trolley/transit museums (NY Transit Museum has it) or order
    direct from the publisher.
    
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NEXT>8114
PREVIOUS>8085
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: position light signals
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:20 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 09, 1998 at 19:00:57:

   In Reply to: [8]position light signals posted by aaron on January 09,
    1998 at 10:05:55:
    
    Actually, there are about 17 different position signals shown in the
    LIRR rule book. I have them scanned if you are interested.
    
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NEXT>8249
PREVIOUS>8081
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-36 Performance
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:22 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 09, 1998 at 19:07:20:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: R-36 Performance posted by Charles Fiori on
    January 09, 1998 at 08:25:03:
    
    The R-33s did not have AC systems installed during overhaul for purely
    economic reasons. The AC systems on the R-36s are 10 ton units per car
    that are independent and not link dependent.
    
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NEXT>8217
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Commuter Signals/Subway Signals
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:24 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 09, 1998 at 19:11:51:

   I am currently collecting scans of RR signals from various properties.
    I would be greatly appreciative if anyone has scans of the signal
    pages of any railroad's rule book. I am especially interested in CTA,
    SEPTA, and MBTA.
    
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NEXT>8121
PREVIOUS>7989
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Rail to wheel flange clearances (Repost)
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:26 1998
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Posted by Joe M on January 09, 1998 at 20:13:27:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Rail to wheel flange clearances (Repost) posted by
    Peter Rosa on January 08, 1998 at 10:36:14:
    
    
    On straight track the standard gauge is 4' 8 1/2 " wheels flange gauge
    is within 1/16 or 1/8" of that depending on the system. The track
    gauge is usually wider in turns but they sometimes use girder rail to
    pick up the other side of the wheel flange to help in turns.
    
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NEXT>8133
PREVIOUS>8110
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: position light signals
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:28 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 09, 1998 at 20:32:49:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: position light signals posted by Steve on January
    09, 1998 at 19:00:57:
    
    _Oooo!!! OOO!!! ME! ME! ME!! Send me a copy!!!!_ :)
    
    This is something I've been trying to find for a while....
    
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NEXT>8124
PREVIOUS>8101
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:32 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 09, 1998 at 20:36:07:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
    posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 09, 1998 at 09:51:21:
    
    Yeah, like other people!!!
    
    I'm sure that was part of the motivation to put that stuff up..
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8075
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYW&B
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:35 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 09, 1998 at 21:31:13:

   In Reply to: [8]NYW&B posted by Jeff Hitchens on January 09, 1998 at
    01:43:13:
    
    Stan Fischler's new book _The Subway_ (actually an update of an
    earlier work) has a few pages on the Westchester line. You might find
    it interesting to read this section, and see if it's accurate. While
    I've enjoyed the book a great deal, there are some rather questionable
    points and omissions.
    
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NEXT>8147
PREVIOUS>8109
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New (sortof)Book
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:38 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 09, 1998 at 21:38:44:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by David Pirmann on
    January 09, 1998 at 17:39:47:
    
    Barnes and Noble's Web site (www.barnesandnoble.com) has the book, at
    $29.95, available by special order in 4 to 6 weeks.
    
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NEXT>8144
PREVIOUS>8108
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The more things change, the more they remain the same
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:41 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 09, 1998 at 21:41:08:

   In Reply to: [8]The more things change, the more they remain the same
    posted by Charles Fiori on January 09, 1998 at 17:37:11:
    
    I have this book from 1971 called "Steal This Book" by Abbie Hoffman.
    In this book, it describes, among many other revolutionary activities,
    which foreign coins fit the subway token in use in 1971 (I'm not sure
    which one it was). Here's what was written in the book:
    
    New York Subway Tokens
    Danish 25 Ore Piece - Works in 95% of all subway turnstiles. A very
    safe coin to use since it will not jam the turnstile. It is 5/1000th
    of an inch bigger than a token.
    
    Portugese 50 Centavo Piece - The average Portugese Centavo Piece is
    2/1000th of an inch smaller than a token.
    
    Jamaican Half Penny, Bahama Penny, and Australian Schilling - These
    coins are 12/1000 to 15/1000 of an inch smaller than a token. They
    work in about 80% of all turnstiles. We have also had good success
    with French 1 Franc Piece (WW II issue), Spanish 10 Centavo Piece,
    Nicaraguan 25 Centavo Piece.
    
    I have quoted the above from the aforementioned book. None of this
    information is obviously of use at this time as the token is obviously
    different, I just find it interesting. Nor do I espouse the use of
    slugs or foreign coins in turnstiles. But I would recommend the book.
    
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NEXT>8120
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: July,1,1998 and Record Attempt
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:45 1998
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on January 09, 1998 at 22:20:27:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: July,1,1998 posted by David Pirmann on January 08,
    1998 at 10:37:51:
    
    So what does this DayPass do to the record attempt??
    The now one fare allows you to get on and off, I wonder if this
    redefines the rules of the attempt of all stations in 24hours for one
    fare!!!
    (No I'm not a lawyer, just related to one).
    
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NEXT>8251
PREVIOUS>8119
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: July,1,1998 and Record Attempt
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:50 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 09, 1998 at 23:14:43:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: July,1,1998 and Record Attempt posted by Lou from
    Brooklyn on January 09, 1998 at 22:20:27:
    
    Well, to keep future record attempts to the same set of rules as past
    ones, I'd say that you have to ride the entire system without exiting
    the fare-paid area, regardless of whether a day pass is used.
    
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NEXT>8128
PREVIOUS>8113
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Rail to wheel flange clearances (Repost)
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:53 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 09, 1998 at 23:30:29:

   In Reply to: [8]Rail to wheel flange clearances (Repost) posted by
    Timothy Speer on January 07, 1998 at 08:20:26:
    
    There is not a simple answer to your question. If all dimensions are
    nominal, the answer is Zero clearance. However, there are variables.
    The back to back dimension, the distance between the backs of the 2
    wheels on the axle is nominal 53 3/32" but can be as little as 53". As
    for flange thickness, a nominal flange will read zero for a new
    flange. for each 16th of wear, the AAR gauge reading will increase by
    one. The TA will accept a (5) flange or a flange 5/16"s below nominal.
    Therefore there can be a maximum of 13/32" between the rail & flange.
    
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NEXT>8127
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Jeff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!!
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:55 1998
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Posted by Jeff on January 09, 1998 at 23:40:54:

   In Reply to: [7]Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!!
    (sorry Hank) posted by Lou from Brooklyn on January 06, 1998 at
    12:56:22:
    
    On the northbound N train today I saw a tunnel perpendicular to the
    whitehall tube just south of the whitehall station wiht lights track
    and all. what was that?
    
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NEXT>8175
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Astoria Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:57 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 10, 1998 at 00:02:58:

   Hi everybody! I was wondering if anybody could help me. I am a
    volunteer for this site and I'm working on the Astoria line. I am
    trying to write a history of the Astoria line, including Queensboro
    Plaza, but I've been having trouble finding information on this. If
    anybody has info about the development of the Astoria Line or can
    point me in the direction of some good sources, please e-mail me or
    just post here. I'll try to take all the incoming info and write a
    coherent history of the line. Thanks!!!
    
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NEXT>8130
PREVIOUS>8115
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:35:59 1998
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Posted by Joe M on January 10, 1998 at 00:27:38:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
    posted by Adam on January 09, 1998 at 10:59:55:
    
    
    Do they also provide wind protection while at the station?
    
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NEXT>8305
PREVIOUS>8098
POSTER>david vartanoff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great
DATE>Jan 23 09:36:01 1998
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Posted by david vartanoff on January 10, 1998 at 00:49:50:

   In Reply to: [8]The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great posted
    by Carl M. Rabbin on January 09, 1998 at 14:30:31:
    
    The Philly system also featured at one time an extensive system of
    underground passageways outside fare control following tyhe subway
    routes . Locust above the Camden now Lindenwold to Broad, Broad north
    to Arch or Race?, From PRR Suburban east as far as 11th. Definitely
    Ariadne territory.
    
    
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NEXT>8155
PREVIOUS>8003
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
DATE>Jan 23 09:36:03 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 10, 1998 at 09:24:41:

   In Reply to: [8]GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
    posted by Timothy on January 06, 1998 at 19:40:05:
    
    I remebert the way I tell them apart is by the rear bumper. The GMC
    had a bumper the invited hitchikers (They'd stand on the bumper and
    hold on till the cops chased them off). I don't know if it is true but
    I **thought* that the reason the Flxibles had a sloped bumper twas to
    avoid hitchilkers. I do know that the GMC RTS and all bus models since
    then have had the sloped rear bumper.
    
    The Flxibles also had warning lights to the left of the driver between
    the side window and the windshield, vertically mounted.
    
    I moved to memmp[his around that time (yuck!!) and they had 15 flxible
    Fish bowls and hated them- tthe MATA (Memphis Area Transit Authority)
    had one --bus # 700 that had split windows (horizontal divider)
    They got rid of them because they were always breaking down and the
    drivers hated therm- they claimed they handled "differently".
    Since then MATA specs were written to avoid flxible but AMC "snuck in"
    with about 50 AMC General buses which also were lemons-they rocked
    violently from side to side so the driver would have to stop to
    stabilize the bus. Since then, the specs(I have never seen the specs,
    only heard talk) wre written for exclusive GMC/RTS/ etc bus models.
    
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NEXT>8246
PREVIOUS>8122
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!!
DATE>Jan 23 09:36:05 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 10, 1998 at 11:42:13:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW
    IT!! posted by Jeff on January 09, 1998 at 23:40:54:
    
    Could it have been where the M branches off up Nassau Street?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8121
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Rail to wheel flange clearances (Repost)
DATE>Jan 23 09:36:07 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 10, 1998 at 11:48:51:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Rail to wheel flange clearances (Repost) posted by
    Steve on January 09, 1998 at 23:30:29:
    
    Thanks -- this gives me some idea. I wondered about this because as I
    was (in Boston) on the #39 bus on Huntington Avenue, we were
    travelling right along side a Green "E" train, and I was watching the
    wheels roll along the track. It seemed to me the train was moving back
    and forth laterally at least an inch or so as it rolled along. I guess
    each system has its own tolerances, but given the sharp turns on the
    Green line, I imagine the wheels must wear down pretty fast!
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8006
POSTER>trolleybus 
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SUBJECT>Re: To Trolleybus: Which Store???
DATE>Jan 23 09:36:09 1998
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Posted by trolleybus on January 10, 1998 at 11:54:47:

   In Reply to: [7]To Trolleybus: Which Store??? posted by Charles Fiori
    on January 08, 1998 at 15:04:27:
    
    the store is at 1234 market street in central phila. its well worth a
    visit but quite a trip for you.
    
    
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NEXT>8132
PREVIOUS>8124
POSTER>Gary Kee 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:36:12 1998
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Posted by Gary Kee on January 10, 1998 at 12:07:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms posted
    by Timothy on January 09, 1998 at 04:55:10:
    
    I'm going to suspect that the walls for railings thing came about from
    a liabiality standpoint. The likley hood of some one tossing an object
    over the wall is less than thru a railing. Same for youngsters ,little
    ones falling thru. At least if an obvious attempt to prevent this
    might prevent and more serious
    "neglect" verdict in court. I'm no lawyar though. : )
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8017
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Writing in New York, nowadays !
DATE>Jan 23 09:36:14 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 10, 1998 at 12:07:55:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Writing in New York, nowadays ! posted by Squid on
    January 08, 1998 at 20:23:45:
    
    Don't forget how "well" subway cars were being cared for in the 1970's
    and early 1980's -- did deferred maintenance include deferred
    painting? If it did, then some of the graffiti probably helped
    preserve some of the cars! Or was the deferred painting a result of a
    "why bother" response to graffiti?
    
    Formerly TKO VI, for all you reformed taggers out there!!!
    
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NEXT>8136
PREVIOUS>8130
POSTER>Adam 
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SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:36:16 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 10, 1998 at 12:14:06:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
    posted by Joe M on January 10, 1998 at 00:27:38:
    
    I guess they do, at least from one direction. But it doesn't really
    help that much on those really cold days. What I really like is that
    electronic sign that beeps and tells you when a train is coming. They
    have this device on the mezannine level, near the token booth right
    past the turnstiles on the Astoria line. So you can wait inside the
    station and escape the cold until the train comes in.
    
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NEXT>8153
PREVIOUS>8114
POSTER>Gary 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: position light signals
DATE>Jan 23 09:36:18 1998
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Posted by Gary on January 10, 1998 at 12:22:45:

   In Reply to: [8]position light signals posted by aaron on January 09,
    1998 at 10:05:55:
    
    
    http://wvit.wvnet.edu/~djrobi/wprrs/signals.html
    
    http://www.nycsubway.org/signals/
    
    Do these two locations help any?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7872
POSTER>sdc-foti 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
DATE>Jan 23 09:36:20 1998
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Posted by sdc-foti on January 10, 1998 at 12:32:09:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe posted by
    John B. Bredin on January 02, 1998 at 16:13:47:
    
    yeah, person like (Robert Moses) That should get their Grave pissed
    upon
    Foti-
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7873
POSTER>sdc-foti 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line???
DATE>Jan 23 09:36:25 1998
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Posted by sdc-foti on January 10, 1998 at 12:42:37:

   In Reply to: [7]Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line??? posted by
    Philip Nasadowski on January 04, 1998 at 19:56:59:
    
    netscape does the Bliky Bliky chamnadoody,
    Foti
    
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NEXT>8138
PREVIOUS>8132
POSTER>David L. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:36:27 1998
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Posted by David L. on January 10, 1998 at 14:26:00:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
    posted by Adam on January 10, 1998 at 12:14:06:
    
    On some of the elevated stations on the Culver line, they have
    electric heaters on the mezzanine level.
    
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NEXT>8173
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mike Rothenberg 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Priorities
DATE>Jan 23 09:36:30 1998
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Posted by Mike Rothenberg on January 10, 1998 at 14:55:07:

   It's interesting to see the different subjects that people write about
    here. Some get quite a number of follow-ups. Though the range of
    subects is broad, I've gotten the feeling that somehow, there isn't a
    sense of priorities - what is and isn't important, and what kind of
    effort this forum can generate to really accomplish something useful
    to New York transit riders.
    
    Specifically, I'm referring to the Manhattan Bridge train problems,
    which alread have shut 2 of the 4 tracks and are expected to
    eventually put all 4 out of commission. There have been some postings
    on this. But the sense that, as a group of people interested in
    transit, we have an opportunity (and perhaps an obligation) to show
    leadership where it's lacking in the politicians and others, doesn't
    seem to have developed.
    
    I'm both surprised and disheartened. I'm willing to say that for me,
    priorities in transit operations are first, to maintain, and prevent
    the loss of (or provide the necessary alternatives to) existing
    transit facilities, and second, to construct new ones.
    
    I cannot see how the tremendous expense of the (needed) 2nd Ave.
    subway should come before taking the steps needed to avoid the transit
    nightmare awaiting tens of thousands ofBrooklyn-based, or -bound
    passengers, when the Manhattan Bridge is closed to all subway trains.
    Surely, there's some way people accessing this forum can bring the
    matter to the attention of the riding public, including cost estimates
    for various alternatives that provide ADEQUATE substitution. Perhaps
    the Rutgers connection is part of an adequate alternative, but it's
    not enough. Access to both the Rutgers and Cranberry tunnels with
    appropriate connections on both the Manhattan and Brooklyn sides would
    be better (already was proposed on this forum). Maybe an entire new
    East River tunnel with Manhattan connections both to the Broadway and
    6th Ave. lines would be best.
    
    The point is, maybe there should be more intensive focus of this forum
    on this matter, with the aim of making sure an appropriate solution is
    found, funded and built. A well-planned outreach program should help.
    Obviously, it will be necessary to bring the politicians and transit
    managers "on board".
    
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NEXT>8139
PREVIOUS>8136
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:36:32 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 14:59:50:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
    posted by jp on January 09, 1998 at 12:12:58:
    
    IIRC, the Astoria Line had them, too.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8149
PREVIOUS>8138
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
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SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:36:36 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 15:02:29:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
    posted by Adam on January 09, 1998 at 10:59:55:
    
    The metal walls are not required to hold up the station canopy, which
    is secured by beams every xx feet (I don't know the precise
    measurement). They weren't there as part of the original station, but
    the original beams and canopy steelwork, in most cases, remains.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8145
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B)
DATE>Jan 23 09:36:39 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 15:04:49:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYW&B posted by Peter Rosa on January 09, 1998 at
    21:31:13:
    
    > While I've enjoyed the book a great deal, there are some rather
    > questionable points and omissions.
    
    I am sure this will start a lively discussion. Could you elaborate on
    some of these points or omissions?
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8027
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Metro-North
DATE>Jan 23 09:36:41 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 15:05:54:

   In Reply to: [8]Metro-North posted by Dave on January 08, 1998 at
    22:34:53:
    
    The flashing green, I believe, indicates to the train operator that
    cab control is in effect.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8029
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA
DATE>Jan 23 09:36:44 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 15:08:44:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Advice Needed On Transitfanning Boston's MBTA
    posted by Todd Glickman on January 08, 1998 at 16:37:04:
    
    I'll have to second Todd on the "no picture" policy.
    
    I've ridden MBTA many times with a camera and was never hassled by
    anyone.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8323
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Brooklyn Trolleys (Re: Last day of service questions)
DATE>Jan 23 09:36:48 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 15:14:57:

   In Reply to: [8]Last day of service questions posted by Alan Follett
    on January 08, 1998 at 13:59:24:
    
    The last trolleys to run in Brooklyn ran on October 31st, 1956. There
    were three runs left: Church Ave, McDonald Ave and the Coney Island
    Avenue routes. Of the three, the Church Ave line was the last one to
    stop operating when PCC car 1039 left the 39th St (Bklyn) Ferry Loop
    at 5:36am and arrived at McDonald Av & Church Av at 5:52am.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8202
PREVIOUS>8118
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The more things change, the more they remain the same
DATE>Jan 23 09:36:53 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 15:33:27:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: The more things change, the more they remain the
    same posted by Adam on January 09, 1998 at 21:41:08:
    
    ... and the Russian Penny worked for a while, too, I remember this in
    the late 70s.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8166
PREVIOUS>8140
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B)
DATE>Jan 23 09:36:56 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 10, 1998 at 15:39:43:

   In Reply to: [8]Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B) posted by Mark S
    Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 15:04:49:
    
    Just to name a couple, the book says that the plaque honoring the
    Beach subway is located at the unused lower level of the City Hall BMT
    station; this has been shown to be untrue. The book also mentions
    Mayor Hylan's hatred of the subway system, resulting from his having
    been fired from a motorman job in his younger days. That story *could*
    be true, but there are a lot of doubts about it, and the book recounts
    it as Gospel truth.
    
    As an example of an omission, the book has an interesting recounting
    of the Union Square wreck in 1991, that focuses in some depth on the
    motorman's pre- and post-accident behavoir, yet never mentions his
    name.
    
    Yet I don't mean to nitpick. Even with these deficiencies it's still
    an excellent book, well worth the price.
    
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NEXT>8162
PREVIOUS>8010
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:37:01 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 15:44:17:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
    posted by Dan Schwartz on January 08, 1998 at 14:17:36:
    
    As for the Brooklyn lines, well, I grew up in Brooklyn, and of all 3
    divisions, I think the BRT/BMTs was the most colorful. I also have the
    info for these lines (I expect to follow up w/ Sea Beach and West End
    in the coming weeks) while I don't have it for others (at least not
    yet). Finally, these lines (and Brighton) were instrumental in the
    development of Brooklyn and Coney Island as a resort for the masses at
    the turn of the century.
    
    So I guess I don't see any Brooklyn bias here :)
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8117
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New (sortof)Book
DATE>Jan 23 09:37:03 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 15:48:41:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by David Pirmann on
    January 09, 1998 at 17:39:47:
    
    The Barnes & Noble on Route 17 NORTH in Paramus (1/2 mile north of
    Route 4) had it. There were 3 copies there when I purchsed mine last
    week.
    
    The other Barnes & Noble further up on the southbound side of Route 17
    (the HUGE one) didn't have it, but I saw most of the other NY transit
    related books, including some by H&M productions (the Transit Maps
    book, for one).
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8178
PREVIOUS>7980
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
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SUBJECT>Re: NY Transit Memories
DATE>Jan 23 09:37:07 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 15:50:10:

   In Reply to: [8]NY Transit Memories posted by Mellow One on January
    07, 1998 at 20:39:00:
    
    Where'd you purchase the book? (Is it a new release?)
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8151
PREVIOUS>8139
POSTER>John Mara 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:37:09 1998
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Posted by John Mara on January 10, 1998 at 15:53:02:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
    posted by Joe M on January 10, 1998 at 00:27:38:
    
    They are in part to provide wind protection for waiting customers. On
    the Astoria line all the Manhattan-bound platforms are fully surronded
    by corrugated metal. The Astoria-bound platforms, for the most part,
    are not. Not as many customers wait on the Astoria-bound side. It does
    help with the wind. Try waiting at center platform stations like
    Astoria Blvd. or the upper level of Queensboro Plaza on a cold windy
    night. With no shelter, it is cold!
    
    Safety is also an issue. Until recently, the 39th Ave/Beebe Ave
    station did not have the either platform surrounded. There were
    complaints that kids from Long Island City High School were throwing
    things off the platform. About four years ago the TA started putting
    up the corrugated metal. Two years ago LIC High moved to their new
    building at Broadway and 21st Street. The TA still hasn't finished the
    job at 39th/Beebe. They still haven't put the lights back up. What's
    worse, the corrugated blocks the view of the 63rd Street Connector
    construction site from the platforms.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8095
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 6av watermain break and the PATH trains
DATE>Jan 23 09:37:11 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 15:55:17:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: 6av watermain break and the PATH trains posted by
    Gary Jacobi on January 09, 1998 at 12:32:47:
    
    Wow! You'd never know that by looking into the tunnel. Looks like a
    typical tunnel to me between W 4 and 34th St. No huge caverns.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8218
PREVIOUS>8149
POSTER>Dan Schwartz 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:37:14 1998
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Posted by Dan Schwartz on January 10, 1998 at 16:38:06:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
    posted by jp on January 09, 1998 at 12:12:58:
    
    
    > When I was a kid, I remember they were frosted window panes. Am I >
    correct in remembering this?
    
    I don't think they were SUPPOSED to frosted, they just got very dirty
    and were never cleaned, so they appeared frosted. I know I used to see
    them on the Jerome Ave. line when I was a kid, and I presume most of
    the IRT elevated lines had them. One example of those windows still
    remains on the system: the south wall of the lower level at Queensboro
    Plaza.
    
    I suspect they were replaced with opaque metal walls because the TA
    realized, in the late '50s or early '60s, that it was impossible to
    keep window-panes clean. (The north wall at QB Plaza - where the
    original north half of the station was cut off - is made of heavy
    plate glass, and it doesn't seem to get as dirty as the individual
    panes on the south side did. Why not, I'm not sure. Is it cleaned now
    and then?)
    
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NEXT>8163
PREVIOUS>7965
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Nassau Loop Service in the 30s
DATE>Jan 23 09:37:17 1998
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Posted by Eric B on January 10, 1998 at 16:43:27:

   In Reply to: [7]Nassau Loop Service in the 30s posted by Ben-Zion Y.
    Cassouto on January 07, 1998 at 08:48:01:
    
    The original Sea Beach subway service in 1915 was Nassau St, but when
    the Broadway line began opening up a couple of years later, it was all
    Broadway after that. This I learned from old ERA Bulletins on BMT
    history.
    What I always wanted to know, is why the Culver never had Broadway
    service.
    
    
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NEXT>8214
PREVIOUS>8133
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: position light signals
DATE>Jan 23 09:37:20 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 10, 1998 at 18:19:45:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: position light signals posted by Gary on January
    10, 1998 at 12:22:45:
    
    The question was about LIRR signals. Although signal aspects on
    various railroads may be similar, the names and indications vary
    greatly from road to road. Ask any AMTRAK engineer who travels the
    eastern seaboard.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Dan Schwartz 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 6av express, local, and PATH trains
DATE>Jan 23 09:37:22 1998
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Posted by Dan Schwartz on January 10, 1998 at 18:22:59:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: 6av watermain break and the PATH trains posted by
    Gary Jacobi on January 09, 1998 at 12:32:47:
    
    The express tunnel was built as early as 1964? Did it take until
    1967 to get it finished (get rid of the water, install rails and
    signals...) or did it sit finished for a while before it opened for
    passenger service in November of '67? Was there any public awareness
    of the tunneling project while it was underway, any signs on the
    surface (or even from 34th St. or W 4th St. station) of what was
    happening?
    
    As for the relative locations of the PATH tracks and the local subway
    tracks, it can probably best be gauged from the 23rd St. station. To
    go from the subway to the PATH, you go down one level, then back up a
    short flight of stairs, shorter than the one you went down.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8126
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
DATE>Jan 23 09:37:24 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 10, 1998 at 20:20:52:

   In Reply to: [8]GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
    posted by Timothy on January 06, 1998 at 19:40:05:
    
    I guess I must really be paying close attention to detail, becuase I
    never realized the new look GMC and Flxibles would ever confuse many
    people. To me the differences are quite clear and numerous. While they
    do have a similar design - I think they are as different in appearance
    as Toyota Camry and a Honda Accord or an R-32 and R-38.
    
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NEXT>8187
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Phila. Lines and the Underground Passages.
DATE>Jan 23 09:37:27 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 10, 1998 at 21:11:22:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great
    posted by david vartanoff on January 10, 1998 at 00:49:50:
    
    I remember you could walk underground from Broad and Spruce St. or
    from 12 or 16 and Locust to 11th and Market or to 17th and Market or
    to Broad and Arch St. along the Broad Street passageway, outside the
    paid area but completely below ground. I think they closed some it off
    because of robberies.
    
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NEXT>8168
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Andy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Septa
DATE>Jan 23 09:37:29 1998
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Posted by Andy on January 10, 1998 at 21:29:38:

   This is my first post, and honestly I do not know very much about
    subway systems. I have heard a lot about the new trains on the El and
    am curious when they are cominh out. I habve only seen one train. This
    town needs some new trains I think. My Dad will not let me ride the
    trains until the new ones are active. I am in 6th grade.
    
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NEXT>8161
PREVIOUS>8028
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Leaves on the line
DATE>Jan 23 09:37:32 1998
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Posted by Joe M on January 11, 1998 at 00:02:37:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Leaves on the line posted by Steve on January 07,
    1998 at 19:49:56:
    
    
    When you true the wheels do you grind them on the car or do they need
    to be removed?
    
    How much material usually needs to be cut away. Do the sanders help?
    (Does the subway use sanders?)
    
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NEXT>8169
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Crimes On Transit Systems
DATE>Jan 23 09:37:35 1998
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Posted by Timothy on January 11, 1998 at 00:52:10:

   Can anyone tell me why muggers often target people who are waiting for
    buses, trains, etc.? About 10 years ago, I was mugged on SEPTA's
    Market-
    Frankford Line, as I was waiting for a train at 46th Street. I had
    just
    finished taking photos of and from the platform before the mugging
    occured.
    Fortunately, I didn't get hurt, and the muggers didn't take my camera,
    just
    my wallet. Although I've taken many photos on subways and els without
    incident since the mugging 10 years ago, it still haunts me from time
    to
    time. Can anyone give me advice on how to avoid being a crime victim
    while
    taking photos on subways/els, as well as tips on how to possibly
    escape a
    mugger, such as using Mace/pepper spray, have a friend accompany me,
    or
    go for the emergency call box or call 911 on the pay phone? Thanks.
    
    
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NEXT>8171
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>STEVE L 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Westside Bus Depot--Location
DATE>Jan 23 09:37:38 1998
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Posted by STEVE L on January 11, 1998 at 01:00:21:

   can someone please advise of exact location and street boundaries ,,,n
    ,s,e,w,and which access roadways,or egress roadways
    =exact location of entrance and exit
    thank you ==Steve
    
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NEXT>8182
PREVIOUS>8158
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Leaves on the line
DATE>Jan 23 09:37:41 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 11, 1998 at 01:02:56:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Leaves on the line posted by Joe M on January 11,
    1998 at 00:02:37:
    
    Wheels are not ground, they are cut on a wheel truing machine which is
    a fairly involved lathe. The car is pulled onto the machine via a
    winch and the car is then secured to the machine. The rails are then
    slid out from under the wheels to be cut, leaving the wheels to rest
    on the cutters. both wheels on the same axle are cut simultaneously.
    The cutters are formed to maintain the correct wheel profile. As the
    cutters rotate, so do the wheels. It is necessary to remove roughly
    1/16th to1/8th inch in diameter for every inch of flat spots, hence a
    4" flat spot might require upto a half inch of metal to be removed
    from the wheel. New wheels strart with roughly 2 5/8" of metal and can
    be used down to 1 1/8". One inch is the condemn limit.
    
    The TA does not use sander shoes but SIRT did at one time.
    
    
    
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NEXT>8167
PREVIOUS>8146
POSTER>Ed Ehrlich 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:37:46 1998
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Posted by Ed Ehrlich on January 11, 1998 at 03:17:40:

   In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line posted
    by Mark S Feinman on January 05, 1998 at 22:46:47:
    
    First of all, I think that Mark Feinman wrote a fascinating article on
    the Culver line.
    
    I don't know if the following is relevant, but when I was a kid I
    rememberd that a lot of Italian men would play Bocci under the Culver
    line in the area between 13th and 14th avenues. This was in the early
    1960s. They used the railroad tracks there to set up the courts. I
    don't remember if the tracks were in use at the time or not.
    
    Ed Ehrlich Jerusalem, Israel
    
    
    
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NEXT>8204
PREVIOUS>8152
POSTER>Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Nassau Loop Service in the 30s
DATE>Jan 23 09:37:51 1998
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Posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 11, 1998 at 04:38:00:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Nassau Loop Service in the 30s posted by Eric B on
    January 10, 1998 at 16:43:27:
    
    The Culver subway service was only daytime hours through the 30s. The
    El service filled in a lot of the headway in the daytime and all
    service other times. In addition, there was still a pinch in rolling
    stock availability and so in rush hour subway trains terminated at
    Kings Highway and also ran express in the LITE direction. Apparently
    these factors all combined to exclude Culver from B'way service.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Corrugated and white/black signs (was Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El
DATE>Jan 23 09:37:55 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
    posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 09, 1998 at 20:36:07:
    
    A crime!!!
    
    I raced around NYC Els in the 70s snapping "last" photos before
    another ruination: white on black lettered t.s. elliot (lower case
    only) signs
    which also displaced quaint old white on blue BMT (and IRT) signs.
    
    Remember!
    
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NEXT>8170
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated and white/black signs (was Corrugated Metal Walls On New York
DATE>Jan 23 09:37:58 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Corrugated and white/black signs (was Corrugated Metal
    Walls On New York El Platforms) posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on
    January 11, 1998 at 05:08:17:
    
    I can comment on the signs. Before moving back to NYC ion 1994 I wasd
    here on vacation in the early 1908s. I went to the musuem which had a
    display of old style and new style signs. The reason, according to the
    display, is that low vision detects white on black easier than the old
    style.
    Another side line- the old style signs (and roll signs on traions) wre
    all capital letters and now they are Mixed Letters.
    
    Sorry to disagree with you, but I happen to prefer the new signs.
    There are still some old signsd at Times Square (IRT and BMT) but
    hurry- they may not last !!
    
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NEXT>8177
PREVIOUS>8145
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B)
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:00 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 11, 1998 at 08:51:25:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B) posted by
    Peter Rosa on January 10, 1998 at 15:39:43:
    
    I found this error/omission: In his charts of when lines opened he
    does not list the Archer Extension of the E/J/Z Line and does not list
    the 63rd street line although he mentions these in the text of his
    book.
    
    
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NEXT>8180
PREVIOUS>8162
POSTER>James A. Tesoriero 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:02 1998
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Posted by James A. Tesoriero on January 11, 1998 at 09:07:32:

   In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line posted
    by Mark S Feinman on January 05, 1998 at 22:46:47:
    
    A great job! I grew up 4 blocks from the Culver Line, known as the F,
    and it will always remain my first love. I only wanted the R-32's that
    the B, D, and N had in the 70's.
    
    Some potential additions:
    
    The El structure between Ditmas Ave. and 9th Avenue when over 36 -
    37th Street was similiar to the Astoria line in Queens.
    
    The El structure between Ditmas Ave. and Ave X. is BMT/IRT El
    Structure seen on the West End, Jerome Avenue, and upper White Plains
    Road lines.
    
    The El structure between Ave. X and Neptune Ave. is two track El
    Structure that is unique to the entire system, with "X" type support
    girders instead of solid steel. It is similiar to the old Fulton El.
    
    Regarding the Dylan lyric, it comes from the song "Visions Of Johanna"
    from the album "Blonde On Blonde," released in 1966. Yes, the D train
    did run to Coney Island via the Culver, pre-Chrystie street. The lyric
    is: "And the all night girls they whisper of escapades out on the "D"
    train." He could have been referring to escapades at Coney Island.
    
    Keep up the good work.
    
    Jim
    
    
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NEXT>8189
PREVIOUS>8157
POSTER>Mike K 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Septa
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:04 1998
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Posted by Mike K on January 11, 1998 at 10:50:32:

   In Reply to: [8]Septa posted by Andy on January 10, 1998 at 21:29:38:
    
    Andy--
    
    The new trains are being slowly unveiled. My understanding is that
    they may not completely replace the current trains for a few more
    years, perhaps not until the El reconstruction in West Philly is
    finished (in 2003).
    
    Michael
    
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NEXT>8516
PREVIOUS>8159
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Crimes On Transit Systems
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:06 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 11, 1998 at 11:42:33:

   In Reply to: [8]Crimes On Transit Systems posted by Timothy on January
    11, 1998 at 00:52:10:
    
    When you're taking photos in the subway, I would definitely recommend
    bringing another person with you. I rarely go myself, for a number of
    reasons. One is that while you're taking the pictures, you are unaware
    of other things which leaves you vulnerable to pickpocketing and being
    pushed into the tracks. Having another person to watch over you can
    prevent this type of activity. Another reason is that cameras and
    video cameras are expensive equipment which makes you even more
    vulnerable to a mugging. Having another person with you will deter
    potential muggers from messing with you. Finally, taking photos makes
    you look like a tourist, which is an open invitation to getting
    mugged. My advice for escaping a mugger is to run to the token booth
    and tell them what is going on. They have a special button they press
    to summon the police.
    
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NEXT>8174
PREVIOUS>8165
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated and white/black signs (was Corrugated Metal Walls On New York
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:08 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Corrugated and white/black signs (was Corrugated Metal
    Walls On New York El Platforms) posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on
    January 11, 1998 at 05:08:17:
    
    I'd love to see some of your photos! I really miss those signs too.
    Can you post them on here?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8160
POSTER>Fernando Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Westside Bus Depot--Location
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:10 1998
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Posted by Fernando Perez on January 11, 1998 at 14:08:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Westside Bus Depot--Location posted by STEVE L on
    January 11, 1998 at 01:00:21:
    
    
    40 St
    ---------------------
    
    11 Av 12Av/Westside
    Highway
    
    ---------------------
    41St
    
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POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>What service changes are we expected to see on NYCT buses for the March 98
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:12 1998
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   What service changes are we expected to see on NYCT buses for the
    March 98 pick like adding more service, expanded hours of service,
    extended service, restructing service, new service. Please post it.
    
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NEXT>8234
PREVIOUS>8137
POSTER>David Pirmann - web site host 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Priorities
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:15 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann - web site host on January 11, 1998 at

   
    In Reply to: [8]Priorities posted by Mike Rothenberg on January 10,
    1998 at 14:55:07:
    
    Mike,
    
    You've got some valid points, in that people need to get more involved
    in order to get things done. But the question is, is this the forum
    for it? Consider the negative points:
    
    1. We're not a group. We don't meet or hold meetings. We don't "speak
    with a single voice".
    2. We're not all in the same geographic area. Many of the posters here
    don't even live in or near New York City.
    3. It was created as a "subway-fan" site not a transit advocacy site.
    There are some such sites out there, like the Regional Plan Associaion
    (www.rpa.org).
    4. It's my opinion as the site host that the MTA attitude toward this
    site is that we are considered "rogue" at best. Larry Reuter et al.
    are not reading this site for ideas.
    
    In order to champion specific causes, like fixing the Manhattan
    Bridge, you are going to need an organization of people- people who
    live in the city and depend on the project in some form. On a site
    like this, where people literally come from all over the country (and
    the world), it is extremely difficult to find enough (e.g.)
    Brooklynites who would be willing to get together to work on an
    advocacy project like the Manhattan Bridge.
    
    You aren't seeing the interest in advocacy projects because for many
    contributors, not only does it not affect them, but why would a
    politician in New York state/city care what a transit fan from some
    other part of the country considers important? It's easy to say "100
    people on the SubTalk bulletin board support Project X" but then when
    the politicos find out that only 1% of those people are a voting
    member of their district, the support is meaningless.
    
    So, my thoughts on the matter are if there are projects that are
    important to you, you have to campaign for them amongst people who are
    affected and who will listen. Go to the Borough council meetings. Go
    to the Neighborhood improvement district meetings. Go to the MTA
    public hearings. Join the various rail transit advocacy groups like
    NARP, RPA, Transportation Alternatives, etc. Invite your council
    representatives, borough president, MTA president to meetings in which
    your cause is presented.
    
    The way to get things done is not to get some rag-tag group of webhead
    transit fans on your side. It will not bring you the support and
    legitimacy that your cause requires.
    
    All IMHO. YMMV.
    -Dave
    
    
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NEXT>8176
PREVIOUS>8170
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated and white/black signs (was Corrugated Metal Walls On New York
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:17 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Corrugated and white/black signs (was Corrugated Metal
    Walls On New York El Platforms) posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on
    January 11, 1998 at 05:08:17:
    
    > black lettered t.s. elliot (lower case only) signs
    
    I think you are thinking of e.e. cummings. :-)
    
    
    -Dave
    
    
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NEXT>8201
PREVIOUS>8123
POSTER>Mellow One 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Astoria Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:19 1998
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Posted by Mellow One on January 11, 1998 at 15:05:02:

   In Reply to: [8]Astoria Line posted by Adam on January 10, 1998 at
    00:02:58:
    
    The ERA, Elecric Railroaders Association, has a storehose of NYC
    transit info. If we can get someone to post or send us the address of
    the ERA, we can become members and we may have access to that
    storehouse.
    
    
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NEXT>8203
PREVIOUS>8174
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated and white/black signs (was Corrugated Metal Walls On New York
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:21 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated and white/black signs (was Corrugated
    Metal Walls On New York El Platforms) posted by subway-buff on January
    11, 1998 at 08:49:07:
    
    > Before moving back to NYC ion 1994 I wasd here on vacation in the
    early
    > 1908s.
    
    Wow! How old are you anyway? :) :)
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8179
PREVIOUS>8166
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B)
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:23 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 15:21:44:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B) posted by
    subway-buff on January 11, 1998 at 08:51:25:
    
    I think the summary of line openings was from an older ERA publication
    that listed them (credit for those pages is given to the ERA) and that
    publication most likely predates the revision of his book. The author
    probably didn't want to alter the charts.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8212
PREVIOUS>8148
POSTER>Mellow One 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NY Transit Memories
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:27 1998
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Posted by Mellow One on January 11, 1998 at 15:25:15:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NY Transit Memories posted by Mark S Feinman on
    January 10, 1998 at 15:50:10:
    
    Yes, it is a 1997 release by Quadrant Press.
    I just assume that all rail/transit fans know about new books before I
    do because I am in Florida. I purchased my copy at a Greenberg Model
    RR show here in Jacksonville, last week.
    
      * [9]Mellow One Home Page
        
    
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NEXT>8199
PREVIOUS>8177
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B)
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:29 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 15:30:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B) posted by
    Peter Rosa on January 10, 1998 at 15:39:43:
    
    > The book also mentions Mayor Hylan's hatred of the subway system,
    > resulting from his having been fired from a motorman job in his
    younger
    > days. That story *could* be true, but there are a lot of doubts
    about it,
    > and the book recounts it as Gospel truth.
    
    Until recently, that's what I believed, too. I've read it in various
    sources, not just Fischler's.
    
    However, I just finished re-reading Frederick Kramer's "Building the
    Independent Subway". (It's amazing how many subway books you can
    finish being laid up with the Flu!) Mr Kramer writes:
    
    
    "In his younger days, Hylan had been a motorman for the BRT and had
    been discharged. Some observers link that event with his unrelenting
    drive to have the city take over the private companies. While this
    motivation is consistent with human frailty, it must be remembered
    that in his role as mayor, Hylan was playing hardball in the political
    arena with what had become a popular notion, so popular in fact that
    it has gotten him elected once and would do so again. Hylan voiced
    what was a Tammany Hall rallying cry and a Hearst publication cause
    celebre. As was learned much later, Hylan's own private expectations
    did not fully coincide with his public pronouncements".
    
    The book never discusses what was learned much later, although I
    suppose a book about Hylan might have the answers.
    
    --Mark
    
    
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NEXT>8297
PREVIOUS>8167
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:31 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 15:42:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
    posted by James A. Tesoriero on January 11, 1998 at 09:07:32:
    
    All notable elements, Jim, thank you.
    
    I remember when the F was mainly composed of R-1/9s, then the move to
    R-38s and slant R-40s. I really miss those days of the front window on
    the Culver Line.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Alan Follett 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>SF Muni opens E Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:33 1998
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Posted by Alan Follett on January 11, 1998 at 15:48:44:

   Yesterday, January 10, saw the inauguration of revenue service on San
    Francisco Muni's new E-Embarcadero line. This is being operated
    initially as a shuttle between the east end of the Embarcadero Muni
    Metro station, and Fourth and King Streets (next to the Caltrain
    station). There are three intermediate stations, all with center
    high-level platforms. Through operation, perhaps in connection with
    the J line, is expected to begin later this year; meanwhile, the
    trackage used by the E cars at Embarcadero station is just blocked off
    from the rest of the system by a temporary sawhorse-type barrier with
    a highway stop sign.
    
    Opening-day service consisted of two Bredas (1412 and 1429) shuttling
    back and forth on about 15-minute headways. Passengers, at least on
    the trip I rode, were overwhelmingly of the railfan persuasion; it
    should get its first batch of real live commuters Monday morning.
    
    The E line is Muni's first to operate on a proof-of-payment system.
    There were two SF city cops aboard the trip I road, but I saw no fare
    inspection.
    
    
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NEXT>8183
PREVIOUS>8161
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Leaves on the line
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:35 1998
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Posted by Joe M on January 11, 1998 at 16:27:24:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Leaves on the line posted by Steve on January 11,
    1998 at 01:02:56:
    
    
    Thanks
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8182
POSTER>Joe M 
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SUBJECT>Re: Leaves on the line
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:36 1998
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Posted by Joe M on January 11, 1998 at 16:30:20:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Leaves on the line posted by Steve on January 11,
    1998 at 01:02:56:
    
    
    Thanks
    
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NEXT>8188
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>James A. Tesoriero 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd.
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:38 1998
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Posted by James A. Tesoriero on January 11, 1998 at 16:58:13:

   When the short connection from the 60th Street Tunnel to the Queens
    Blvd. subway was put into service in December of 1955, I was
    wondering:
    
    1) What Queens Blvd. - Broadway service was first provided?
    
    2) What equipment was first used? (R1-9's, Standard's, Triplex's?)
    
    I remember EE - Continental Avenue - Whitehall St. Weekday service
    that used primarily R16's in the early and mid seventies. Then the EE
    was dscontinued in 1976 and the N was sent up to Continental with
    R-46's, and we pretty much know all the rest
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8096
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station,
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:40 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the
    City Hall Station, Anyway? posted by Gary Jacobi on January 09, 1998
    at 13:37:22:
    
    In the case of City Hall, other than the structural reasons for the
    separation, one must keep in mind that this station was the terminal
    stop for several years and significant southbound service was not
    really available until 11 years after the subway opened. Express
    service was non-existent on the line until its 31st year. Thus, the
    separation was not a big problem for a long time.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8030
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Thanks -- Re: SEPTA Question (M-4's)
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:43 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 11, 1998 at 17:13:54:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Thanks -- Re: SEPTA Question (M-4's) posted by
    Mystery on January 08, 1998 at 23:33:05:
    
    As far as I know, the M-4's have standard cabs.
    
    OPTO will be coming to the El once the M-4's are here. A special TV
    system will be used to help the motorman. The only places where there
    are center platforms are 34th, 30th and Spring Garden, and trains may
    be "wrong side" at both 69th and Bridge-Pratt (oops, Frankford
    Terminal!) depending on where they start. OPTO is currently in use on
    the Broad St Subway and no problems have been reported, other than
    slow locals since many stops are island platforms.
    
    By the way, the M-4 order is down 2 cars, from 222 to 220. The two
    trash/money cars are being dropped in favor of a couple of rehabbed
    Budds which will provide this service.
    
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NEXT>8526
PREVIOUS>8156
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Phila. Lines and the Underground Passages.
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:46 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 11, 1998 at 17:17:48:

   In Reply to: [8]Phila. Lines and the Underground Passages. posted by
    Carl M. Rabbin on January 10, 1998 at 21:11:22:
    
    In Phila this is known as the "concourse" and it's still there. It's
    not used very much, except for cold and wet days, but it's still quite
    extensive. It's also much cleaner now that it is closed at 1 AM
    nightly for cleaning, etc. The homeless must find another place to
    sleep and do their other functions (much of which contributed to the
    lack of cleanliness).
    
    The only significant portion which is gone is that north of City Hall,
    which is sealed off. New and rehabbed portions were added in the '80's
    and the City is considering efforts to continue improvements. Of
    course, elevators will be chief among them.
    
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NEXT>8192
PREVIOUS>8184
POSTER>Mike B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd.
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:47 1998
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Posted by Mike B on January 11, 1998 at 17:29:25:

   In Reply to: [8]Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd.
    posted by James A. Tesoriero on January 11, 1998 at 16:58:13:
    
    Before the EE was in existance, I believe that some RR trains went to
    Continental, with the QT, QB and T running to Astoria.
    
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NEXT>8190
PREVIOUS>8168
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Septa
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:49 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 11, 1998 at 17:29:51:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Septa posted by Mike K on January 11, 1998 at
    10:50:32:
    
    The M-4's are beginning to arrive now and are scheduled to all be on
    the property by the end of next year. Depending on which version you
    believe, the Budds may either be completely gone by them or kept in
    smaller numbers for emergencies. The yards can certainly accommodate
    upwards of 300 cars so about 100 Budds could be kept.
    
    The Market St El is slated to undergo replacement starting in '99 and
    lasting perhaps to 2003 according to current projections.
    
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NEXT>8196
PREVIOUS>8189
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Septa
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:51 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 11, 1998 at 18:47:14:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Septa posted by Bobw on January 11, 1998 at
    17:29:51:
    
    Anyone know how to get one's hands on a whole car or parts of the
    scrapped cars??
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Update on 1998 Subway Derby
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:52 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 11, 1998 at 18:56:24:

   I received an e-mail from Adam this week with an update on the derby.
    Adam is still waitign for a reply from guiness. Unilt a reply is
    received there is nothing we can do but wait. Adam, Bob, Mr Mabstoa or
    mysel;f will keep you posted via subtalk.
    
    (I am the official clerk of the derby)
    
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NEXT>8209
PREVIOUS>8188
POSTER>Walter 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd.
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:54 1998
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Posted by Walter on January 11, 1998 at 19:31:11:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd.
    posted by Mike B on January 11, 1998 at 17:29:25:
    
    I remember seeing BMT standards on the 4th Ave./Broadway/Queens Blvd.
    line in Queens in 1958, when I came to New York on a visit.
    
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NEXT>8197
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Any MP-54/70s around???
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:56 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 11, 1998 at 21:05:32:

   Does either the LIRR, NJT, or Septa have any MP-54 or MP-70 cars
    around anymore (and where??) I know the LIRR ditched or demotored
    theirs in the 70's, but I don't know what happened to Septa's and
    NJT's, although I've heard that Septa still had them in service until
    80 or so. Does anyone still have any around??
    
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NEXT>8195
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>New York Subway Line by Line: The West End Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:38:59 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 21:15:55:

   Hi all.
    
    Posted below is a working draft of the second installment - "New York
    City Line by Line: The West End Line". All comments welcome. If anyone
    remembers some of the service patterns that the line had after 1940 (T
    express and TT local, for example), that would be especially welcome.
    
    By Tuesday, Dave will have my finalized version of the Culver Line
    ready for placement on the site (once we decide what photos to use,
    etc). Thanks to all of you who offered comments.
    
    --Mark
    
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    -
    
    General History
    
    The West End Line began service in 1864 as a steam railroad called the
    Brooklyn, Bath and
    Coney Island between 25th St and 5th Ave in South Brooklyn to the Bath
    section of Brooklyn,
    which in today's map would be 65th Street and New Utrecht Avenue. In
    1867, the steam line
    reached Coney Island, making it the first steam railroad to reach the
    Atlantic Ocean at this
    location. In 1885, a branch was bulilt from 5th Avenue and 38th Street
    to Second Avenue and
    39th Street as a ferry connection. Also in 1885, the BB&CI was
    reorganized into th Brooklyn,
    Bath and West End Railroad. In 1889, when the 5th Ave El reached 5th
    Ave and 36th St, the
    railroad was abandoned north of 36th St. Trains then ran from 2
    branches, one from the ferries
    and one from the junction of the 5th Ave El, to Tivoli's Hotel in
    Coney Island. The two branches
    joined in West Brooklyn, which is approximately where New Utrecht Ave
    & Ft Hamilton Pkwy
    meet now.
    
    In 1893, the line was electrified with trolley wire and merged with
    the Atlantic Avenue Railroad
    which itself merged with the Nassau Electric Railroad in 1898. In
    November of 1893, the
    Atlantic Avenue Railroad started running streetcars on the line, and
    in early 1894, railway post
    office mail was begun on the line to Coney Island.
    
    In 1901, BRT elevated trains began using the surface West End
    trackage, using trolley poles.
    Service connected to the West End from a ramp of the 5th Avenue
    elevated at 36th Street.
    Called the "5th Ave - West End Line", it ran using third rail from
    Sands St or Park Row to 36th
    St and then by trolley pole to Coney Island. Originally, the West End
    Line has its own Coney
    Island terminal, but later in the 1900s shared a terminal with the
    Culver Line at Culver Terminal.
    In 1919, both the Culver and West End Lines moved to their new
    terminal, the present-day
    Stillwell Avenue and Coney Island BMT stop.
    
    In 1917, as part of the Dual Contracts, the West End El as we know it
    today was built, replacing
    the surface route. Streetcars replaced trolley powered El cars on the
    surface until the trolley
    line was closed in 1947. Steel cars from the 4th Avenue subway to
    Chambers St via the
    Manhattan Bridge replaced the wooden 5th Ave El cars, and the 5th
    Avenue El was closed in
    1940. Remains of these ramps can be seen today just north of the 9th
    Avenue and 39th Street
    station. Some service in Manhattan ran as far north as Union Square in
    1917, and then to
    Times Square in 1918. By 1919, part time service was available at 57th
    St and 7th Ave.
    Because of a shortage of steel cars, shuttles consisting of wooden
    equipment ran between
    Bay Parkway and Coney Island at rush hours until 1953. Rush hour
    trains consisting of steel
    cars also ended their runs at Bay Parkway.
    
    In 1918, the Malbone St wreck on the BRT Brighton Line killed 97
    people. As a result of the
    wreck, the BRT went bankrupt and was reorganized into the BMT
    (Brooklyn - Manhattan Transit
    Corporation). The West End Line then became a BMT property.
    
    The West End Line was unified into the New York City Transit System on
    June 1st, 1940, after
    BMT shareholders agreed to a $175 million buyout from the City of New
    York.
    
    On November 26th, 1967, as part of the opening of the Chrystie Street
    connection, service was
    rerouted up 6th Avenue. Rush hour trains terminated at 168th St;
    normal hour trains terminated
    at 57th St and 6th Ave when it was opened July 1st, 1968. Before
    Chrystie Street, T expresses
    ran between Coney Island and 9th Avenue in the peak direction during
    rush hours and TTs ran
    as the local. Today, the West End is serviced by the B line and there
    is only local service
    between Coney Island and 9th Avenue. M trains used to run to 9th
    Avenue (until 1996) during
    midday hours (after being rerouted off the Brighton Line in 1988
    because of the "temporary"
    Manhattan Bridge work); M trains now run to Bay Parkway only during
    rush hours and to
    Chambers Street weekday middays. Even with the supplemental service on
    the West End at
    rush hours, New York City transit never decided to have the B run
    express to Bay Parkway.
    
    Probably no other line in the New York City Transit System is as well
    known as the B line (save
    for the #6 in "The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3"). The B line was used in a
    major chase scene of the
    movie "The French Connection" in 1971 as a car chases the B train
    overhead from Bay 50th
    nearly all the way to 9th Avenue.
    
    Photos
    
    place photos here
    
    Timeline
    
    1862: Opened as the Brooklyn, Bath & Coney Island Railroad
    1885: Reorganized into the Brooklyn, Bath and West End Railroad
    1892: Merged into the Atlantic Avene Railroad
    1893: Electrified using trolley wire.
    1898: Merged into the Nassau Electric Railroad.
    1899: Absorbed into the BRT
    1917: Became part of the New York Consolidated Railroad under the BRT.
    
    1923 15 June: Control transferred to BMT (New York Rapid Transit Corp)
    
    1940 1 June: Unified into the New York City transit System.
    1940: Abandonment of 5th Avenue El
    1967 26 November: Chrystie Street connection opens.
    
    Stations
    
    West End Elevated
    
    9th Avenue, 9/15/1916
    Fort Hamilton Pkwy, 9/15/1916.
    50 St, 9/15/1916
    55 St, 9/15/1916
    62 St, 9/15/1916
    71 St, 9/15/1916
    79 St, 9/15/1916
    18 Ave, 9/15/1916
    20 Ave, 12/29/1916
    Bay Parkway, 12/29/1916
    25 Ave, 12/29/1916
    Bay 50th St, 12/21/1917
    Stillwell Ave - Coney Island, 12/21/1917
    
    Construction
    
    The structure at 9th Avenue is open cut, having rambled through a
    short rock and brick-lined 2
    track tunnel upon exiting from the 4th Avenue subway. Upon exiting the
    tunnel, the remains of
    the 5th Ave El ramps (made of concrete) can clearly be seen, followed
    by a set of similar
    looking concrete ramps coming from the 36th St Maintenancxe yards
    which are on the left side
    of the train. A complicated maze of switches then appears, three
    tracks which lead to the
    ex-Culver line stop on the lower level (closed since May 11th, 1975)
    and three tracks whci lead
    to the upper level for the West End Line, in an open cut. Both levels
    of 9th Ave have 2 island
    platforms and one express track down the middle.
    
    The West Line then becomes elevated between 9th Ave and Bay 50th St,
    using an El structure
    typically built during the Dual Contracts days. All local stops are
    side platforms and all express
    stops are of the island platform type. The express stops are 9th Ave,
    62 St, and Bay Parkway;
    all other stops are local.
    
    After leaving Bay 50th St, an S curve takes you from the El structure
    (16.5 miles long) onto
    grade level, with the massive Coney Island shops right beside you.
    Then the line crosses
    Coney Island Creek and rises again before entering Stillwell Avenue.
    
    Stillwell Avenue has center island platforms, one each for B (West
    End) approaching from the
    north, F (Culver) and D (Brighton) approaching from the east, and N
    (Sea Beach) trains
    approaching from the north. The West End Line tracks are the most
    westward and the last
    track (track 8) is built on a typical El structure, while the other
    (track 7) is built on a concrete
    viaduct that is shared with the other lines. Stillwell Avenue - Coney
    Island was a Dual
    Contracts-funded replacement for the private Culver and West End
    Depots. Track 7 is now
    stub-ended, but at one time it had an alternate connection to the
    Culver Line tracks. The
    Norton's Point Trolley terminal and ramp was located at the same level
    as the subway, just
    beyond where the bumper posts of tracks 7 and 8 are today.
    
    Stillwell Avenue is due to be reconstructed in 1998.
    
    What Makes the West End Line Interesting?
    
    The elevated West End Line is one of the finest elevated runs in the
    city. The stations have
    enough of a distance where decent speed can be attained before
    stopping at the next one.
    
    Photo opportunities exist at 62nd Street, where you can get a good
    shot of trains approaching
    from either direction. Another good spot is at 18th Avenue ont he
    Coney Island bound side.
    Trains can be captured just before they round the curves at either
    side of the station.
    
    Like the Culver Line, the West End Line shares the 9th Avenue station
    and uses the upper
    level. There used to be a pedestrian crossing over the center express
    track at the north side
    of the station that also provided TA employees access to the 36th
    Street yard. Until recently,
    there was never a "no admittance" sign; in the last few years, one was
    erected. That perch
    provided for some great shots of trains coming from the 4th Avenue
    subway. However, good
    shots can still be taken from the platform level.
    
    Stillwell Avenue offers many varied opportunities for photos and
    should not be missed. The
    north end of the station has a pedestrian crossing over all 8 tracks,
    and the view from the West
    End side looking north towards Manhattan is the best. Looking south,
    photos can be taken
    with the Cyclone rollercoaster or the parachute jump (a New York
    landmark that used to be part
    of the 1939-40 World's Fair) in the background. Exit the station at
    Stillwell Avenue and yet
    more opportunities are available to you along Stillwell Avenue on the
    west, Surf Avenue on the
    South and Neptune Ave on the north sides of the station. (West End and
    Sea Beach trains
    depart in a northerly direction over Neptune Avenue).
    
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NEXT>8207
PREVIOUS>8194
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The West End Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:02 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 21:19:01:

   In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line by Line: The West End Line posted
    by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 21:15:55:
    
    One oops I know of alreay - the length of the El is not 16.5 miles -
    it's 4.5 .. I think I was thinking of the Broadway / Jamaica line
    .....
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8229
PREVIOUS>8190
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Septa
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:03 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 11, 1998 at 21:40:59:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Septa posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 11,
    1998 at 18:47:14:
    
    No, but the cars are slowly disappearing to the scrap yards. About 30
    have gone to their demise already and only 2 M-4 trains are on the
    property, one of which is in "regular" (Tue, Thu and Sat middays, last
    I heard) service. I haven't heard who the local scrapyard is, or even
    if it's local.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8193
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Any MP-54/70s around???
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:05 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 11, 1998 at 21:46:20:

   In Reply to: [8]Any MP-54/70s around??? posted by Philip Nasadowski on
    January 11, 1998 at 21:05:32:
    
    There are no more MP-54's in service on SEPTA's regional rail lines. I
    believe one or two are still in work train service.
    
    The Wilmington and Western Railroad, south/west of Wilmington, DE, had
    received a group of these when SEPTA retired them and they were stored
    at W & W's shops. Whether they are still there, I couldn't say. It
    appears that several other tourist operations like W & W also got some
    of the cars, and I do recall seeing some somewhere (I can't recall
    where) without the pantographs, etc being hauled by diesel/steam
    locos.
    
    SEPTA doesn't save much for historical purposes and has managed to let
    the MP-54's and Reading MU's disappear from its roster, with the
    exception of work service (there are a couple of Reading Blues still
    on maintenance of way duties).
    
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NEXT>8206
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:08 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 22:31:48:

   For those Sea Beach fans, here's the working branch of the Sea Beach
    for the "Line by Line" series. Comments welcome.
    
      _________________________________________________________________


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NEXT>8208
PREVIOUS>8179
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B)
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:10 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 11, 1998 at 23:41:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B) posted by
    Peter Rosa on January 10, 1998 at 15:39:43:
    
    >As an example of an omission, the book has an interesting recounting
    of >the Union Square wreck in 1991, that focuses in some
    >depth on the motorman's pre- and post-accident behavior, yet never
    >mentions his name.
    
    Yes, I found this to be a glaring omission as well. I remember the
    wreck and the motorman's name was Robert Ray. Otherwise an excellent
    volume. I particularly enjoy how animately he describes the wrecks,
    making you feel as if you were right there when it was happening.
    
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NEXT>8307
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Blaise Dupuy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Elizabeth Light Rail
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:12 1998
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Posted by Blaise Dupuy on January 11, 1998 at 23:45:24:

   Elizabeth is considering plans to build a sports stadium near the
    airport, next to Port Elizabeth. The location is next to the site of
    the proposed Jersey Gardens outlet center, a proposed megamall
    formerly known as NJ MetroMall. Does anyone know if NJ Transit still
    have plans to build the Newark Elizabeth light rail? There is an old
    railroad bridge that crosses Newark Bay to Bayonne right next to the
    site. Would it be feasible to run the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail line
    over this bridge and stop at the stadium, and then on to downtown
    Elizabeth?
    
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NEXT>8226
PREVIOUS>8175
POSTER>D-Train 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Astoria Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:14 1998
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Posted by D-Train on January 12, 1998 at 02:02:36:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Astoria Line posted by Mellow One on January 11,
    1998 at 15:05:02:
    
    Enclosed is the address for the New York Division of the E.R.A
    P.O. Box 3001 New York, N.Y. 10008
    
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NEXT>8427
PREVIOUS>8144
POSTER>Brian 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The more things change, the more they remain the same
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:15 1998
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Posted by Brian on January 12, 1998 at 02:34:35:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: The more things change, the more they remain the
    same posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 15:33:27:
    
    I guess the ultimate job for a coin collector or token collector would
    be
    to work at the MTA checking all the tokens. (Doubt they would let them
    have em free however) But boy the things one might just see. ha
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8176
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated and white/black signs (was Corrugated Metal Walls On New York
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:17 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated and white/black signs (was Corrugated
    Metal Walls On New York El Platforms) posted by subway-buff on January
    11, 1998 at 08:49:07:
    
    S. Buff, which signs were compared to the new white on black? I had in
    mind the old BMT white on dark blue signs (and similar IRT ones) which
    were the vast majority they replaced!!!
    
    They probably compared to nebish modern white on black signs of which
    few had been used at the time of the TA's mass-replacement program. I
    always felt that this was a "fix" here - to give business to some
    cronies.
    
    Many old signs had additional information on cross streets and exits,
    etc. E.g.: Brighton Beach on the BB line. What a waste of money to
    ditch all those and replace them with simpler but no more readable
    signs. In fact many new signs had smaller lower-case lettering,
    therefore NOT easier to read!
    
    
    
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NEXT>8228
PREVIOUS>8163
POSTER>Lou from Middletown 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Nassau Loop Service in the 30s
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:19 1998
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Posted by Lou from Middletown on January 12, 1998 at 09:15:03:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Nassau Loop Service in the 30s posted by Ben-Zion
    Y. Cassouto on January 11, 1998 at 04:38:00:
    
    Do you think it might also have to do with the fact you had 4 other
    services running on the Broadway BMT at the time- 3 expresses
    (Brighton, Sea Beach,&West End) + 1 local????
    
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NEXT>8215
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>WMATA New look GMC's (Fishbowl)
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:21 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 12, 1998 at 09:27:31:

   Those of you who are interested in GM Fishbowls had better get to
    Washington DC soon as I don't think they'll be around much longer.
    WMATA was due to receive 262? new Orion V buses. The new Orions have
    started to arrive and I'm sure that WMATA will be removing GM
    fishbowls as quickly as possible. If they are indeed getting 262 buses
    then I would expect that some of the new look Flxibles will be retired
    also.
    
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NEXT>8211
PREVIOUS>8198
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:23 1998
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Posted by Ed Sachs on January 12, 1998 at 11:02:25:

   In Reply to: [8]New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
    posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 22:31:48:
    
    Mark -
    
    Do you have any information about the ramp west of the 8th Ave.
    station
    that led up to the Bay Ridge branch of the 5th Ave. El? Did this
    trackage
    ever see any revenue service?
    
    Ed
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8195
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The West End Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:25 1998
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Posted by Ed Sachs on January 12, 1998 at 11:20:21:

   In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line by Line: The West End Line posted
    by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 21:15:55:
    
    > Originally, the West End Line has its own Coney
    > Island terminal, but later in the 1900s shared a terminal
    > with the Culver Line at Culver Terminal.
    
    I may be wrong, but I thought that the Sea Beach and West End lines
    used West End Terminal, and the Culver and Brighton Lines used
    Culver Terminal.
    
    > Before Chrystie Street, T expresses ran between Coney Island
    > and 9th Avenue in the peak direction during rush hours and
    > TTs ran as the local.
    
    I don't think that there was ever express service south of 9th Ave.
    The
    (mid 60s) TT trains terminated at Bay Parkway in rush hour (Bay
    Parkway to
    Chambers St. via tunnel), and the T expresses ran over the Manhattan
    bridge to 57th St or Astoria. During midday weekdays, the T express
    didn't
    operate and the TT ran all the way to Coney Island.
    
    I do recall that throught the 50s and 60s, off-hour service was
    reduced
    on the West End Line. At some point in the mid-late 50s, the West End
    express Manhattan Bridge through service was discontinued during late
    night hours, replaced first by service via tunnel to Chambers St, and
    later
    by a shuttle to 36 St/4 Ave. The West End Local (also sometimes called
    the West End Short Line, and later the TT) was originally a rush-hour
    only
    operation; midday service started when the Culver line through service
    ended (around 1958 or 1959), at which time the midday West End Express
    (T) train through service was discontinued. In the mid 60s, Sunday
    through
    service was eliminated, replaced by a Coney Island to 36 St/4 Ave
    shuttle.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8199
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B)
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:26 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 12, 1998 at 11:21:00:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Stan Fischler's Book (was: Re: NYW&B) posted by
    Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 15:21:44:
    
    After reading your description of the Sea Beach (N) line, I just
    realized another omission in Stan Fischler's book - in his
    line-by-line ratings, he doesn't mention that the N travels through
    the Coney Island yards and offers an interesting (if partially
    obscured) closeup view of an area that's otherwise out of public view.
    
    
             ____________________________________________________


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NEXT>8210
PREVIOUS>8192
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd.
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:29 1998
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Posted by Ed Sachs on January 12, 1998 at 11:30:45:

   In Reply to: [8]Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd.
    posted by James A. Tesoriero on January 11, 1998 at 16:58:13:
    
    Original service (1955-1961) was Brighton Local, generally using BMT
    Standards, Mon-Fri, 6am - 7pm, local to Forest Hills. In 1961, the
    Brighton Local and 4th Ave Local (QT and RR) swapped Queens terminals,
    with
    the Brighton going to Astoria and the 4th Ave to Forest Hills. At that
    time,
    the R27/R30s were being delivered and were replacing the Standards on
    these two lines.
    When the Chrystie St. connection was opened in 1967, the RR went to
    Astoria, and a new EE Broadway Local service ran Forest Hills -
    Whitehall
    St., still Mon-Fri, 6am - 7pm. In 1967, pre-war IND R-units were used
    on
    the EE, but later on other equipment showed up on the line.
    
    
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NEXT>8243
PREVIOUS>8209
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd.
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:32 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 12, 1998 at 11:40:20:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd.
    posted by Mike B on January 11, 1998 at 17:29:25:
    
    4th Avenue local trains ran from 95th St.-Fort Hamilton to Continental
    Avenue-Forest Hills from 6:00 AM to 7:00 PM Mon-Fri ONLY from the time
    of its creation in 1955 until November 1967, when the EE started.
    Evenings, nights, and weekends, 4th Avenue locals only ran to 57 St
    and were the only trains to use the tunnel track during those
    non-business day hours.
    
    The cars used were the 67' BMT standards until the modern trains (I
    don't know the number) with dark gray outside, pink inside,
    fluorescent lights, and plastic sideways seats were introduced around
    1961. The 4th Avenue locals were never considered IND trains and never
    used IND cars (until November 1967 at least). The maps even had a
    dotted green line next to a solid red line showing that the service
    was BMT service and IND service on the same tracks.
    
    The connecting tunnel was built because all that Queens local service
    capacity was being underused with a train (GG) that didn't go into
    Manhattan. Everyone on a local had to change to an express somewhere.
    
    The service to the Broadway line was, is, and will always be extremely
    popular and crowded because it is the only train of the E,F,G,R that
    goes to the Financial district below Fulton Street without one having
    to climb stairs to change trains.
    
    I believe the 63 St tunnel may be underused if it only goes to 6th
    Avenue during rush hours because a very large part of the ridership
    wants to go to the stations south of Fulton Street, i.e. Rector (Wall)
    St. and Whitehall St. 6th Avenue and 8th Avenue trains do not go into
    the heart of the Financial district.
    
    Before 51 St.(6)/Lexington Avenue(E,F) were connected, it was even
    worse. The R train was the only way to transfer to a midtown Lexington
    Avenue train from Queens Blvd without a really convoluted set of
    transfers.
    
    
    
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NEXT>8242
PREVIOUS>8206
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:35 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 12, 1998 at 12:07:40:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach
    Line posted by Ed Sachs on January 12, 1998 at 11:02:25:
    
    Ed --
    
    Theonly recurring theme I keep seeing about 5th Ave - West End and
    Culver is that off peak 3rd Ave service was done by uncoupling cars
    from Culver Line trains. I don't have any other information on this
    ramp (actually, I had forgotten about it!)
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8178
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NY Transit Memories
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:37 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 12, 1998 at 12:30:41:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NY Transit Memories posted by Mellow One on
    January 11, 1998 at 15:25:15:
    
    Nope - didn't have that one, but I'll sure be looking for it now!
    Thanks for the info!
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8216
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>aaron 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Washington DC Green Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:40 1998
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Posted by aaron on January 12, 1998 at 12:44:15:

   I was in Washington DC recently and rode to College Park on Red/Green
    lines. I had to change at Fort Totten, but noticed Green Line seemed
    to be
    built back to downtown.
    What is the background and is this unfinished segment ever going to
    open?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8153
POSTER>aaron 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: position light signals
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:42 1998
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Posted by aaron on January 12, 1998 at 12:49:49:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: position light signals posted by Steve on January
    09, 1998 at 19:00:57:
    
    Yes, please post or e-mail!!
    
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NEXT>8220
PREVIOUS>8205
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: WMATA New look GMC's (Fishbowl)
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:44 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 12, 1998 at 12:50:17:

   In Reply to: [7]WMATA New look GMC's (Fishbowl) posted by Wayne
    Johnson on January 12, 1998 at 09:27:31:
    
    Hopefully those are not some of the same fishbowls which took the
    place of the Flxible 870s in NYC!!!
    
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NEXT>8271
PREVIOUS>8213
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Washington DC Green Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:46 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 12, 1998 at 13:50:43:

   In Reply to: [7]Washington DC Green Line posted by aaron on January
    12, 1998 at 12:44:15:
    
    You must have not looked at the map very carefully. The Green Line
    between Fort Totten and U-Street Cardozo (two stations worth) is
    currently under construction and will open in 1999. Another section
    south of the Anacostia station will open in 2001. It currently runs in
    two sections: Fort-Totten to Greenbelt and U Street to Anacostia.
    
    Also, there is still one last station on the Red line to be opened on
    July 25, 1998: "Glenmont", near my house (Finally!!!).
    
    During rush hours a special version of the Green Line runs. Instead of
    terminating at Fort Totten, the southbound train, for example, crosses
    over just before it reaches Fort Totten, onto the northbound track and
    then to a (normally) non-revenue connecting track which connects it to
    the southbound Red Line. The train then runs on the Red Line through
    all of downtown Washington to Farragut North Station (3 blocks
    northwest of the White House). It then turns around on a center track
    and goes back to Greenbelt, again using the connecting track and
    skipping Fort Totten.
    
    Since both NB and SB Green share the single connecting track, the
    trains run on a nine-minute headway, instead of the standard 6 minute
    rush hour headway of branches, so there can be at least 2 minutes
    between directions so they won't crash. The central part of the Red
    Line normally has 3-minute headway, so this extra Green service has to
    be squooshed in there among the other trains, not always with ontime
    service resulting.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8112
POSTER>Joe Cielecki 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Commuter Signals/Subway Signals
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:48 1998
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Posted by Joe Cielecki on January 12, 1998 at 15:26:53:

   In Reply to: [8]Commuter Signals/Subway Signals posted by Steve on
    January 09, 1998 at 19:11:51:
    
    Copyright laws may prohibit free"scans" from rule books. Why don't you
    try
    calling the aformentioned properties and ask for a "real" copy?
    
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NEXT>8247
PREVIOUS>8151
POSTER>jp 
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SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:49 1998
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Posted by jp on January 12, 1998 at 15:40:03:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
    posted by Dan Schwartz on January 10, 1998 at 16:38:06:
    
    Yes, when I saw them as a kid, it was along the Jerome Avenue line,
    too.
    
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NEXT>8221
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Chris Matheson 
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SUBJECT>DC Area's Metro-rail
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:51 1998
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Posted by Chris Matheson on January 12, 1998 at 16:05:32:

   Well, finally a post about my system (I hate to be the first one on
    these boards). I have just moved to the DC area last month from
    Syracuse, and let me tell you that I don't know what I ever did
    without a well developed modren, mass transit system! I have a few
    questions though maybe you could help:
    
    1) Does the Metro-Rail system have a web site?
    
    2) I was told that the system is fully automated - the reason the door
    times at certain stations are never long enough or too long. Is this
    true?
    
    This forum is really neat, I have been reading posts for about two
    weeks now, (it has earned book-mark status). Never thought you could
    say so much about a sub-way/mass transit system!
    
    Chris Matheson
    Sorry, no e-mail address at this time, hopefully I will have something
    soon
    
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NEXT>8223
PREVIOUS>8215
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: WMATA New look GMC's (Fishbowl)
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:53 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 12, 1998 at 16:26:57:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: WMATA New look GMC's (Fishbowl) posted by Charles
    Fiori on January 12, 1998 at 12:50:17:
    
    Actually they are the same models (TDH-5302, 5304 and T6H-5306) and I
    wouldn't be at all suprised if some of the actual buses that came to
    NYC are still amongst them. Incidentally, WMATA has also lent buses to
    SEPTA in the past also.
    
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NEXT>8222
PREVIOUS>8219
POSTER>John B. Bredin 
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SUBJECT>Re: DC Area's Metro-rail
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:55 1998
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Posted by John B. Bredin on January 12, 1998 at 16:42:29:

   In Reply to: [8]DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Chris Matheson on
    January 12, 1998 at 16:05:32:
    
    1)Yes. The address is www.wmata.com
    2)I'm not certain, but my understanding is that the system could be
    operated totally automatically but it is not, in that an actual human
    being controls the doors.
    
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NEXT>8224
PREVIOUS>8221
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
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SUBJECT>Re: DC Area's Metro-rail
DATE>Jan 23 09:39:57 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 12, 1998 at 16:50:21:

   In Reply to: [7]DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Chris Matheson on
    January 12, 1998 at 16:05:32:
    
    1) http://www.wmata.com/
    
    2) It is fully automated when accelerating, moving between stations,
    and stopping in the stations. The motorman appears to open the doors
    (though I used to think they opened automatically), and he/she
    definitely closes them. They do not close automatically.
    
    BTW, If you ever hear multiple beeping sounds, it means the train is
    going too fast and the computer (or the person on very slippery days)
    is going to slow it down.
    
    Maps brochures, and all timetables can be obtained at Metro Center (12
    & F end), Metro HQ at 5th and F St. NW, and at a few other Transit
    stores, at Crystal City, Rosslyn, and Ballston (all in nearby malls).
    The White Flint Mall one on the second floor near Borders Books has
    mostly MD stuff, while the others have everything, including MARC and
    VRE trains.
    
    There are also two bus maps DC/MD and DC/VA, for $1.50 each. Also
    Ride-On Bus maps for the Montgomery County system, and other maps for
    the smaller suburban systems. Good luck. The rail system is easy to
    get around on. The bus system is kind of strange because many routes
    have many branches to hit every apartment house and back street in the
    two states. Cross-Distict buses north of U St. are also not too
    frequent.
    
    "Welcome to Our Nation's Capital." Which agency are you going to work
    at or "do battle" with?
    
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PREVIOUS>8220
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
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SUBJECT>Re: WMATA New look GMC's (Fishbowl)
DATE>Jan 23 09:40:00 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 12, 1998 at 17:47:38:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: WMATA New look GMC's (Fishbowl) posted by Wayne
    Johnson on January 12, 1998 at 16:26:57:
    
    At some point, when I was maniacal about such things, I actually had
    someone collate a list of the WMATA equipment sent up to NY, fleet
    nos., etc. I can remember when the bus drivers who were going to bring
    the equipment up from DC boarded the Eastern Shuttle at LGA, one of
    them hollered out, "Hey, where's the farebox on this thing?"
    
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NEXT>8233
PREVIOUS>8222
POSTER>Chris Matheson 
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SUBJECT>Re: DC Area's Metro-rail
DATE>Jan 23 09:40:06 1998
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Posted by Chris Matheson on January 12, 1998 at 18:07:27:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Carl M. Rabbin on
    January 12, 1998 at 16:50:21:
    
    Thanks for the tips. I wondered what the beeps were. I am
    self-employed- graphic design and some minor web development. My wife
    works for the government, hence the move.
    
    I neglected to tell you earlier that Syracuse has started a service
    known as OnTrack, and it features old fashioned service beteen
    Carousel Center, the largest mall in the area (and one of the few
    entertainment areas), Armory Square (Historic Shopping) Syracuse
    University (Go Orange!) and Jamesville Beach. (Closed for the season)
    
    During the summer I know they have sight-seeing tours, etc. I know one
    of the trains is steam operated, but beyond that, I don't know
    anything else!
    
    As a final aside: There is a store in Carousel that features train
    collectibles. THere is a similar store at Crossgates Mall in Albany,
    so I can only assume it is a chain: They have stuff like old signage,
    etc, but I think it is all representations. They also sell old model
    train engines, kind of neat!
    
    
    
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NEXT>
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POSTER>Jack 
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SUBJECT>PATH
DATE>Jan 23 09:40:15 1998
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Posted by Jack on January 12, 1998 at 18:30:19:

   Have there been any accidents on PATH? They seem to have sharp curves
    on the ROW to Hoboken.
    
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NEXT>8341
PREVIOUS>8201
POSTER>Adam 
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SUBJECT>Re: Astoria Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:40:18 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 12, 1998 at 18:33:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Astoria Line posted by D-Train on January 12, 1998
    at 02:02:36:
    
    Thanks for the address! I'll write to them about becoming a member.
    
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NEXT>8230
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Adam 
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SUBJECT>Old Subway Signs
DATE>Jan 23 09:40:21 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 12, 1998 at 18:42:03:

   I was wondering what happens to the old signs in the subway that are
    taken down when a station is refurbished. I was in the Canal Street
    station today which was recently redone, and I must mention that the
    new mosaics and tiling look beautiful. But gone are the former white
    lettering on black signs that said Canal Street (and some were even in
    Chinese!). I was wondering what is done with these old signs and if it
    is possible to obtain them from somewhere. Thanks!
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8204
POSTER>Eric B 
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SUBJECT>Re: Nassau Loop Service in the 30s
DATE>Jan 23 09:40:23 1998
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Posted by Eric B on January 12, 1998 at 18:59:19:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Nassau Loop Service in the 30s posted by Lou from
    Middletown on January 12, 1998 at 09:15:03:
    
    What I was wondering was what determined that Culver would be the line
    that was left out, and not one of the other lines. The Brighton had
    two Broadway services and only three or five rush hr specials to
    Nassau. Why couldn't they have switched with one of those?
    
    
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NEXT>8272
PREVIOUS>8196
POSTER>Wallace N. Grommit 
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SUBJECT>Re: Septa
DATE>Jan 23 09:40:26 1998
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Posted by Wallace N. Grommit on January 12, 1998 at 19:17:00:

   In Reply to: [8]Septa posted by Andy on January 10, 1998 at 21:29:38:
    
    A high level source at SEPTA told me that the cars that are now being
    delivered are more than likely going back to the factory in Elmira to
    be "repaired." A manitence supervisor told me that the cars are
    "pieces of s**t" and have "easy to vandalize" interiors. A source in
    the transit police told me that the safety glass panel by the door had
    been broken by an officer after his nightstick accidently banged into
    it.
    
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NEXT>8240
PREVIOUS>8227
POSTER>Allan 
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SUBJECT>Re: Old Subway Signs
DATE>Jan 23 09:40:29 1998
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Posted by Allan on January 12, 1998 at 19:19:44:

   In Reply to: [8]Old Subway Signs posted by Adam on January 12, 1998 at
    18:42:03:
    
    According to Tom Harrington (NY Transit Museum Curator), it is
    supposidly written into all contracts on refurbishing of stations that
    all signs and other items of historical value go to the Museum.
    
    I asked Tom why those items are not for sale at the Museum. He stated
    that he saves those items for major events (dinners/fund raisers) and
    sells them to people willing to pay big $ for those things. I tend to
    believe this to be true (although I don't totally agree with it). When
    the Museum first opened (as the Transit Exhibit) and through the early
    1980's they would always have roll signs, station signs and similiar
    items on sale at the Museum at all times.
    
    For anyone who wonders why they don't have the Tag Sale/auction
    anymore, it is because the last one they had was so poorly attended
    (the weather was lousy) that the whole idea was dropped.
    
    
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NEXT>8232
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Blade-Runner 
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SUBJECT>What Station
DATE>Jan 23 09:40:33 1998
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Posted by Blade-Runner on January 12, 1998 at 20:12:25:

   Can anyone tell me which station the D train is shown stopping at on
    the MTA's official NY subway website? It's a color shot of an outdoor
    station with a fair amount of greenery in the background...
    
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NEXT>8235
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POSTER>Blade-Runner 
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SUBJECT>What Station
DATE>Jan 23 09:40:37 1998
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Posted by Blade-Runner on January 12, 1998 at 20:12:39:

   Can anyone tell me which station the D train is shown stopping at on
    the MTA's official NY subway website? It's a color shot of an outdoor
    station with a fair amount of greenery in the background...
    
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NEXT>8239
PREVIOUS>8224
POSTER>Peter Gray 
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SUBJECT>Re: DC Area's Metro-rail
DATE>Jan 23 09:40:40 1998
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Posted by Peter Gray on January 12, 1998 at 20:21:08:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Carl M. Rabbin on
    January 12, 1998 at 16:50:21:
    
    Interesting explanation of the high level of automation on the
    Washington Metro.
    
    In contrast, the ATC systems on both the Tokyo subway system & the
    'bullet-train' (I live in Tokyo) have fully automated cruise and
    breaking down to the 5 km level. The engineer/motorman must manually
    stop the train below 5 km, and manually accelerate the train. This was
    done by design to keep the human 'in the loop' making the most crucial
    decisions (when to speed up). A fully-automated system was considered
    but rejected in favor of the 'human failsafe' operation. For what it's
    worth, since beginning operations in 1964, the various shinkansen
    (bullet-train) lines have never had a passenger fatality (other than
    suicides).
    
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NEXT>8244
PREVIOUS>8173
POSTER>Peter Gray 
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SUBJECT>Re: Priorities
DATE>Jan 23 09:40:45 1998
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Posted by Peter Gray on January 12, 1998 at 21:47:34:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Priorities posted by David Pirmann - web site host
    on January 11, 1998 at 14:45:40:
    
    David:
    
    In addition to being a great web-site host, you've also got some good
    ideas on community involvement.
    
    However, I'm afraid community advocacy, however worthwhile, is
    unlikely to get a lot done to solve the Manhattan Bridge repair
    problem. The issue cuts much deeper than that. Most of the people here
    continually express the hope that 'the city', or 'the MTA' will 'do
    something', 'do the right thing'. I'm amazed at the complacency in
    thought that assumes that transit systems, bridges, roads, etc. should
    be publicly owned. This thinking represents a bankrupt mentality which
    is fast disappearing in the rest of the world, but lingers on in New
    York, the city with the highest tax regime in the country, a city
    which continues to deteriorate despite an economic boom in the rest of
    the US. I realize NY has always been a bastion of old-time,
    democrat/socialist style 'bigger-government-is-better' thinking, but I
    would have thought people would be ready for something different by
    now. Why has no one woken up to the fact that NY City and State
    agencies screw up virtually everything they try to run, and always
    have?
    
    'The City' is inherently incapable of running an efficient system
    because it lacks the correct incentives. Rather than being motivated
    by profit achieved by delivering a service consumers want, it is a
    bureaucracy whose sole purpose is self-perpetuation achieved via
    politically-directed funding allocation. Whenever money runs out, the
    city simply raises taxes and 'seizes it', driving away profitable
    businesses by the cartload. Is it any surprise that NY, home to 200 of
    the Fortune 500 Corporations in 1960, today is HQ location for fewer
    than 50?
    
    New York's transit systems were built by private companies pursuing
    profit. They stopped making money due to changes in transportation
    patterns largely brought on by government-engineered subsidies for
    automobiles, by competition from tax-payer funded transit systems, by
    corrupt city administrations & labor unions determined to hamstring
    private companies not in their pocket, and by excessive city
    regulation as to what fares could be charged, and how operations
    should be run. In short, the grand old tradition for which Gotham is
    world-famous.
    
    The NY subway system should be privatized, with the purchaser free to
    charge whatever fares the market will bear, and run whatever routes
    riders want. Unprofitable routes that people don't want closed could
    be subsidized by the city, but the emphasis would be on a money-making
    operation. The income to the city from selling this asset, as run-down
    as it is, would be huge, and might also be structured to yield ongoing
    income.
    
    The bridges (TBTA?) in NY could also be sold off, either piecemeal or
    as a system. Many precedents exist for this. Private operators would
    be responsible for repairing/maintaining/rebuilding their assets and
    would have an incentive to do so because they would charge whatever
    tolls (toll-collection via automated system) they wanted.
    
    Interestingly, after years of mismanagement, the Port Authority
    finally had the good sense to award a concession to operate Kennedy
    Airport and construct the new International Arrivals Building to a
    private company (Schipol Airport Authority). The $1 Billion cost has
    been privately raised on a non-recourse base via a 144A bond issue.
    Want to bet JFK will improve?
    
    London is privatizing it's underground, and the British have already
    privatized vast portions of the national rail system. Sydney is
    building a privately funded/owned airport rail link. More than half of
    Tokyo's urban rail network is privately-owned, and highly profitable.
    
    The alternative is the continued limping along with a crumbling
    infrastructure base which has brought us to the Manhattan Bridge
    situation. And as we all know, the worst is yet to come. As ridiculous
    as it seems, just as it took Donald Trump to finally get the Wollman
    Skating rink restored after years of city incompetence, it will take
    private entrepreneurship to restore NY's infrastructure.
    
    I realize that the idea a private firm might - just might - do better
    than the MTA is heresy to many readers. And I must admit as a native
    New Yorker now resident abroad, it hurts me to come to some of the
    conclusions I've reached, but one thing is clear: the old-style
    'city-run' paradigm doesn't work anymore, if it ever did. For their
    own posperity and that of the city they love, New Yorkers need to get
    their heads out of the civil service mentality of the depression and
    into the modern world of private initiative.
    
    
    
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NEXT>8236
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POSTER>Joshua Caesar 
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SUBJECT>Re: What Station
DATE>Jan 23 09:40:47 1998
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Posted by Joshua Caesar on January 12, 1998 at 22:41:14:

   In Reply to: [8]What Station posted by Blade-Runner on January 12,
    1998 at 20:12:25:
    
    Where within the MTA web sitet [9]? I can't seem to find the picture
    you are talking about?
    
    
    Josh
    
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NEXT>8238
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POSTER>Blade-Runner 
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DATE>Jan 23 09:40:49 1998
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Posted by Blade-Runner on January 12, 1998 at 22:53:34:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: What Station posted by Joshua Caesar on January
    12, 1998 at 22:41:14:
    
    The MTA Website is www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/nyct.htm. If you click on
    the 'subway information' button, you get to the picture
    (...nyct/Subway/submain.htm)
    
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NEXT>8245
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POSTER>Mike B 
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SUBJECT>6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
DATE>Jan 23 09:40:51 1998
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Posted by Mike B on January 12, 1998 at 23:20:59:

   Can anyone elaborate on what lines ran on 6th Avenue before Chrystie
    Street opened and where the lines terminated. The only one I remember
    is the D which ran from 205th Street-Concourse to Coney Island via
    Culver.
    
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NEXT>8241
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POSTER>Mike B 
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DATE>Jan 23 09:40:53 1998
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Posted by Mike B on January 12, 1998 at 23:25:10:

   In Reply to: [8]What Station posted by Blade-Runner on January 12,
    1998 at 20:12:25:
    
    It's either Beverly or Cortelyou Road. The picture of the D train was
    taken while the local track was out of service. The D train is
    actually on the express track with a temporary platform built over the
    local tracks.
    
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NEXT>8267
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POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
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SUBJECT>Re: DC Area's Metro-rail
DATE>Jan 23 09:40:55 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 12, 1998 at 23:26:25:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Peter Gray on
    January 12, 1998 at 20:21:08:
    
    BART, I believe is so automated that the "train operator" could die
    and the passengers wouldn't know it. Actually, isn't Bart the system
    where the guy can't manually move the train if it conks out??
    
    Patco is pretty automatic at points, but at other points the operator
    actually does drive the train.
    
    An engineer on Metro North told me that the DC guys actually are
    represented by the bus driver's union, and not the BLE. It goes
    without saying that automation, while high in intital cost, saves
    oodles on labor, given that job can be handled by all but the dumbest
    people.
    
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POSTER>Adam 
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SUBJECT>Re: Old Subway Signs
DATE>Jan 23 09:40:58 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 12, 1998 at 23:28:23:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Old Subway Signs posted by Allan on January 12,
    1998 at 19:19:44:
    
    Allan - Thanks for the info. Too bad that they dropped the Tag
    Sale/auction. I attended it and it was really nice. I'd like to see it
    revived if at all possible. Also, if there's anybody on this board
    who's selling anything transit-related, visit TransitAds and post an
    ad. It's a great page and I couldn't resist plugging it here. I forgot
    the www address but you can get it through the links from this site.
    
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NEXT>8353
PREVIOUS>8238
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: What Station
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:00 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 12, 1998 at 23:34:51:

   In Reply to: [8]What Station posted by Blade-Runner on January 12,
    1998 at 20:12:25:
    
    Check out the "behind the scenes" photo gallery on the MTA homepage
    for the NYC Subway. Some pretty cool pictures.
    
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NEXT>8258
PREVIOUS>8211
POSTER>a pardi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:03 1998
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Posted by a pardi on January 12, 1998 at 23:39:32:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach
    Line posted by Ed Sachs on January 12, 1998 at 11:02:25:
    
    i think on some early 1900 subway maps the ramps west of 8 th av sta
    lead up to the old 5th ave elevated
    
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NEXT>8352
PREVIOUS>8210
POSTER>a pardi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd.
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:06 1998
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Posted by a pardi on January 12, 1998 at 23:45:08:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd.
    posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 12, 1998 at 11:40:20:
    
    the 63rd st connector when complete will see the g terminate at court
    square permanently. either the Q or the F will operate via 63rd st to
    sixth av.
    
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NEXT>8276
PREVIOUS>8234
POSTER>a pardi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Priorities
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:08 1998
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Posted by a pardi on January 12, 1998 at 23:58:11:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Priorities posted by Peter Gray on January 12,
    1998 at 21:47:34:
    
    Has anyoone stopped to consider THAT the new york city transit system
    ORIGINATED as PRIVATE for profit owned systems that onto their demise
    were taken over by New York City? everyone bitches and moans about the
    cost of $1.50 for a subway token which is A FLAT fare system, the
    morons who now ride the system can't figure how to use metrocard you
    would want them to pay by distance and then user their card to exit
    the system?? pulleezz.
    Yes the bridges and tunnels cost $3.50 and they are in the worst shape
    of any I have seen. BUt aren't we trying to advocate PUBLIC
    transportation? pollution of our air by cars and taxis and are the tip
    of the iceburg but the time wasted by traffic is a waste of labor
    dollars across the board. opps I changed subject.. privated ownership
    of bus and subway in some ways sounds good but what can a company
    charge is determined by the public utility commision profit i don't
    think it'll happen.
    
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NEXT>8260
PREVIOUS>8237
POSTER>david vartanoff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:11 1998
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Posted by david vartanoff on January 12, 1998 at 23:58:13:

   In Reply to: [8]6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
    posted by Mike B on January 12, 1998 at 23:20:59:
    
    D Concourse 205-Coney Island via McDonald(Culver)
    Bronx Express in direction of rush only during AM or PM Mon-Fri
    Manhattan Express 145-34 all times
    34th st to Coney Island local all times
    BB 168 Wash Hts. 34th & 6th rush only M-F local
    F 179-Jamaica-to B'way Laffayette M-F Exp Queens Local Man base day
    till8p?
    to 34th&6th evenings owl, & weekends
    
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8127
POSTER>a pardi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!!
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:13 1998
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Posted by a pardi on January 13, 1998 at 00:11:14:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW
    IT!! posted by Timothy Speer on January 10, 1998 at 11:42:13:
    
    the tracks and light you saw are the Nassau St cut to the J M Z. Just
    south of Whithall st around 100-150 feet as the train turns left into
    the Montague st Tube towards your right you will see the tunnel wall
    which would have been the Staten Island connector.
    
    
    
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NEXT>8248
PREVIOUS>8218
POSTER>a pardi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:15 1998
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Posted by a pardi on January 13, 1998 at 00:17:49:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
    posted by jp on January 12, 1998 at 15:40:03:
    
    The corrugated walls we now see were never intended to cover up window
    panes which were never cleaned. as times changed vandals came along to
    break glass oh and to toss things or probably a crime victim over the
    railings(not that i'm aware of any such a crime) I guess safety comes
    into play when a major infrastucture change is implemented. Anyone
    remember the wooden platforms up to the early to mid 1970's?
    
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NEXT>8259
PREVIOUS>8247
POSTER>a aprdi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:17 1998
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Posted by a aprdi on January 13, 1998 at 00:23:10:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
    posted by David L. on January 10, 1998 at 14:26:00:
    
    your right about the heaters on mezzanine levels in Brooklyn. In fact
    most of the station in Brooklyn have working heaters on the mezzanine,
    I can't say i've seen them in any other boro??
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8111
POSTER>a.pardi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-36 Performance
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:21 1998
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Posted by a.pardi on January 13, 1998 at 00:40:58:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: R-36 Performance posted by Charles Fiori on
    January 09, 1998 at 08:25:03:
    
    the r-33 on the number 7 are self contained cars ie: can operate
    single unit contains converter and compressor. same goes for r 62's.
    The under carriage for the single unit r 33 doesn't contain room the
    for the Condensor or any a/c apparatus. while the R 62 which were
    designed for a/c and single unit operation. Mainline R 33 are married
    pair ie: must operate in pairs since Odd number unit has compressor
    for both unit operation and even number unit as converter and
    batteries for low voltage supply for both units. obviously more room
    available for a/c apparatus on the underbody.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8080
POSTER>a. pardi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived!
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:23 1998
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Posted by a. pardi on January 13, 1998 at 00:45:43:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived! posted
    by Lou from Middletown on January 09, 1998 at 09:15:42:
    
    its amazing that channel 11 news (NYC) would have the audacity to show
    how to defraud us straphangers with boot leg metrocards which weren't
    perfect to begin with. come on was this really suppose to inform us or
    to teach low lifes how to get over? how wins? obviously not the law
    abiding fare paying citizen....
    
    
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NEXT>8479
PREVIOUS>8120
POSTER>a.aprdi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: July,1,1998 and Record Attempt
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:25 1998
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Posted by a.aprdi on January 13, 1998 at 00:52:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: July,1,1998 and Record Attempt posted by Peter
    Rosa on January 09, 1998 at 23:14:43:
    
    i believe in years past when any records were attempted in riding the
    entire nyc subway its was done without leaving the fare paid area
    hence no day(unlimited use pass)pass
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8102
POSTER>a.aprdi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:27 1998
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Posted by a.aprdi on January 13, 1998 at 00:56:17:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places
    posted by Jon on January 09, 1998 at 16:05:18:
    
    i'll go you one further on seeing NYCT BUS rts model in out of city
    surroundings. I was driving upstate between Hornell NY and Buffalo and
    i belive it was while travelling north on route 36 two nycta RTS bused
    I guess scrap parked on someones property??
    
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NEXT>8306
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>A. Pardi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Metrocard fraud
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:30 1998
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Posted by A. Pardi on January 13, 1998 at 01:04:00:

   I suspected sooner or later some crack head junkie or what not would
    be able to damage a fare card and end up having it become semi usable
    to swipe someone and collect money. Come on folks wake up and smell
    the coffee this ends up costing us money oh yeah someone got over on
    the big bad MTA ha ha well guess what it comes back to slap us all in
    the face. sure probably you think your helping some poor sap get some
    money for food or shelter guess what thats not where its going.....
    
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NEXT>8255
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Shawn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>14 st - Canarsie Local Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:33 1998
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Posted by Shawn on January 13, 1998 at 01:55:59:

   I would like to find any information that could tell me how deep
    underground the 14 St. Canarsie Local "L" line is as it approaches the
    East River on the Manhattan side -- at the East River Park. Any
    information would be greatly appreciated.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8254
POSTER>Shawn 
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SUBJECT>14 st - Canarsie Local Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:36 1998
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Posted by Shawn on January 13, 1998 at 01:56:19:

   I would like to find any information that could tell me how deep
    underground the 14 St. Canarsie Local "L" line is as it approaches the
    East River on the Manhattan side -- at the East River Park. Any
    information would be greatly appreciated.
    
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NEXT>8264
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Fernando Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>March 98 Westside depot
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:39 1998
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Posted by Fernando Perez on January 13, 1998 at 01:57:40:

   The final adjustments of route changes has been made and posted for a
    special general pick togo into effect March 2,1998. Here are the new
    route assignments:
    Amsterdam-BX6,BX15,M104,M100
    Mother Clara Hale-M1,M7,BX19,BX21,BX33
    Manhattanville-M2,3,4,5,101,103,60
    Hudson-M6,8,9,11,14,21,22,23,Q32
    Westside-M10,30,34,42,50,72,79,86,96/106,98,X90/92
    Gunhill-BX4,5,8,12,14,16,17,22,27,28,29,31,34,39,40/42
    Kingsbridge-Bx1,2,3,7,10,13,18,20,32,35,36,41,55
    
    Because of the Lenox Av. construction project, there will be special
    services added to the lines in the areas. Included will be special
    Bx15 shuttles between Broadway and Lenox Av's increased service on the
    M116 and Bx19 and limited service on the 102's on Lenox av. The m116
    and M35 are going to 126St TA depot.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Shawn 
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SUBJECT>"L" Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:42 1998
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Posted by Shawn on January 13, 1998 at 01:57:50:

   I would like to find any information that could tell me how deep
    underground the 14 St. Canarsie Local "L" line is as it approaches the
    East River on the Manhattan side -- at the East River Park. Any
    information would be greatly appreciated.
    
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NEXT>8298
PREVIOUS>8242
POSTER>Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:45 1998
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Posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 13, 1998 at 03:30:09:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach
    Line posted by Mark S Feinman on January 12, 1998 at 12:07:40:
    
    I've brought up the subject of the ramps on this board before - no
    responses...
    
    I have a photo by one of the ERA old timers whose name escapes me now,
    from the OPENING of the rebuilt 9th Ave cut. On this photo the ramps
    closest to 5th Ave are still empty of track! The photog noted (in this
    railfan trip booklet) that these tracks may have been used during the
    rebuild but that even at this time of the opening of the new cut
    trackage, these ramps were devoid of tracks!
    
    This fits in with all the track maps I've seen, which show the 36th
    street turnouts going into the yard and continuing quite a ways, up to
    the second set of ramps (the yard tracks) which we all know.
    
    If ANYONE has proof otherwise PLEASE ADVISE (with sources)!
    
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NEXT>8273
PREVIOUS>8248
POSTER>Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:47 1998
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Posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 13, 1998 at 04:03:00:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
    posted by a pardi on January 13, 1998 at 00:17:49:
    
    Ah yes, another very missed detail...
    
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NEXT>8302
PREVIOUS>8245
POSTER>Dan Schwartz 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:49 1998
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Posted by Dan Schwartz on January 13, 1998 at 06:22:16:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
    posted by david vartanoff on January 12, 1998 at 23:58:13:
    
    
    > D Concourse 205-Coney Island via McDonald(Culver)
    > Bronx Express in direction of rush only during AM or PM Mon-Fri
    > Manhattan Express 145-34 all times
    > 34th st to Coney Island local all times
    > BB 168 Wash Hts. 34th & 6th rush only M-F local
    > F 179-Jamaica-to B'way Laffayette M-F Exp Queens Local Man base day
    > till8p?
    > to 34th&6th evenings owl, & weekends
    
    I'm pretty sure the F ran to B'way-Lafayette 24 hours a day, at least
    near the end.
    
    On Saturday night, 11/25/67, I rode down to B'way-Lafayette to see the
    last night of the "old" operations. I was there about 11 PM.
    Southbound F's, consisting of R-38 cars, were terminating there on the
    SB inner ("express") track. Southbound D's, consisting of R-1/9 cars,
    were running through on the "local" track to Coney Island. I rode one
    down to Jay St., then wne back home - to the Bronx!
    
    I went back early next morning. About 7 AM, on the same platform,
    southbound D's consisting of R-32 cars now stopped at the inner
    platform, running through to Coney Island via the new connection and
    the Brighton line. Southbound F's, consisting of R-1/9 cars, now ran
    on the outer track, running to Coney Island via Culver just like the
    D's had done the night before. I rode a new D to DeKalb Ave.,
    observing the new Grand St. station (and the view from the Manhattan
    Bridge) in the process, then turned around and went home again.
    
    P.S. The practice of using colored circles to identify trains began
    that day as well. I was intrigued by the new style signs posted over
    the tracks at DeKalb Ave., identifying trains and their destinatins by
    colored circles. These were originally black on white, but soon they
    switched to white on black.
    
    P.P.S. My parents apparently thought that I had been out all night,
    and they were pretty upset.
    
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NEXT>8275
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Will 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>The "Line by Line" Posts
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:52 1998
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Posted by Will on January 13, 1998 at 08:57:00:

   Are these new line by line descriptions going to be available anywhere
    on this website besides the SubTalk? They are EXCELLENT and should be
    made a permanent part of the NYC Subway Resources.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: What Station -- An Answer
DATE>Jan 23 09:41:58 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 09:18:44:

   In Reply to: [7]What Station posted by Blade-Runner on January 12,
    1998 at 20:12:39:
    
    It is probably Cortelyou Road on the Brighton Line and it is
    definitely looking at a Coney-Island bound train (looking north from
    the southern end of the southbound platform). It can only be either
    Beverley or Cortelyou because those are the only two local stations
    below ground with the little building for a station entrance. Parkside
    Avenue and Avenue H have different entrance styles.
    
    E. 16 St. at Beverley Road has only private houses and a tiny little
    wooden taxi stand on its Southwest corner (southeast of the station
    entrance).
    
    Cortelyou Road has a candy store right next to the subway entrance
    building (the red brick building next to it in the picture). On E. 16
    St south of Cortelyou Road there are mainly red brick apartment houses
    with a couple of private houses in the middle of the block leading to
    Dorchester Road (south of Cortelyou).
    
    I went to P.S. 139 on Cortelyou Road a few decades ago, so I know the
    neighborhood ...well... the way everyone knows the neighborhood they
    grew up in.
    
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NEXT>8269
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Christopher Rivera 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
DATE>Jan 23 09:42:05 1998
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Posted by Christopher Rivera on January 13, 1998 at 09:24:39:

   I have been thinking about this questions for my subway book that I am
    writing a bout. What is the longest line in New York City History? I
    have made 3 Guesses
    1. The 1979 C train that ran from the Bronx to the Rockaways (Only
    line in New York City History to go into 4 broughs)
    2. The 4 train after midnight. Woodlawn to New Lots Avenue.
    3. The F Train from 179 street to Coney Island.
    Tell me what you think about my answers and give some of your answers.
    Thanks 1 down 74 to go.
    
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NEXT>8318
PREVIOUS>8256
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: March 98 Westside depot
DATE>Jan 23 09:42:11 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 13, 1998 at 09:25:28:

   In Reply to: [8]March 98 Westside depot posted by Fernando Perez on
    January 13, 1998 at 01:57:40:
    
    Thanks Fernando,
    
    I just wanted to add that Kingsbridge will also have the Bx11 once
    again.
    
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NEXT>8280
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Christopher Rivera 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>The Ex C train Line The madness
DATE>Jan 23 09:42:14 1998
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Posted by Christopher Rivera on January 13, 1998 at 09:33:25:

   In the 70's and 80's the C train was the Grand Daddy of rush hour
    trains. But when the 90's rolled in the C train place in rush hour
    service was to be gone. Now they have 3 terminals for the Uptown
    service and 2 Terminals for the Downtown service. That Bites. It more
    confusing every single day. Why did the MTA do that can some body
    explain this to me. Before they do this again.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: DC Area's Metro-rail: The motor(wo)men are wonderful
DATE>Jan 23 09:42:16 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 09:33:39:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Philip Nasadowski
    on January 12, 1998 at 23:26:25:
    
    I don't think your description of Metro rail drivers is fair. They may
    not drive the train directly most of the time, but they are
    responsible for its operation, for its ontime service, for watching
    the doors to close them, taking the trains to the yards, and piloting
    the train when necessary.
    
    Sometimes it takes more common sense than a book-learned person may
    have to perform tasks in a safe and trustworthy way. (And I have 2
    Master's degrees but I would not trust me to drive a bus or train for
    others.) I assure you I always feel safe on a DC Metro train.
    
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NEXT>8332
PREVIOUS>8239
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
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SUBJECT>Re: DC Area's Metro-rail
DATE>Jan 23 09:42:18 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 09:39:50:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Chris Matheson on
    January 12, 1998 at 18:07:27:
    
    In Washington there are two very good train stores: "The Great Train
    Store" in Union Station (where else?) and a branch of the same
    business in Tysons Corner Center (the one with Nordstrom, not the one
    with Macy's). They sell among other things, the New Electric Railway
    Journal, model trains, signs of all types (not originals), and many
    books, including most of the subway ones.
    
    Lots of other rail stuff can be bought at the National Capital Trolley
    Museum in the northern part of Wheaton, MD. and the Baltimore
    Streetcar Museum on Falls Road off Lanvale St. and Maryland Avenue in
    Baltimore.
    
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NEXT>8295
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Andrew Byler 
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SUBJECT>Re: position light signals (Attn: David Pirmann)
DATE>Jan 23 09:42:21 1998
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Posted by Andrew Byler on January 13, 1998 at 09:44:34:

   In Reply to: [8]position light signals posted by aaron on January 09,
    1998 at 10:05:55:
    
    A while ago, I had posted all of the various combinations of PRR
    position light signals in ASCII format to an old netnews bboard on
    railroads netnews.rec.railraods, which David Pirmann, editor of this
    board, had saved and spruced up with color for this site. Now this
    seems to have disappeared from here.
    
    Perhaps David could post the link to this post, or tell what happened
    to it, as I am unsure where it is.
    
    The information was from several articles in "The High Line" the
    publication of the Philadelphia Chapter of the Pennsylvania Railroad
    Technical and Historical Society from around 92 or 93. If Daivd is
    interested, I'd send him the relevant pages to repost once I copy them
    again.
    
    Andy
    
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NEXT>8278
PREVIOUS>8263
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
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SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
DATE>Jan 23 09:42:26 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 09:46:49:

   In Reply to: [7]Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by
    Christopher Rivera on January 13, 1998 at 09:24:39:
    
    The longest is the E train that ran from 179 St. Jamaica to Far
    Rockaway or Rockaway Park in the 1960s and early 70s.
    
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NEXT>8290
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
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SUBJECT>Re: The C train Line The madness -- Soon to End
DATE>Jan 23 09:42:30 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 09:50:06:

   In Reply to: [7]The Ex C train Line The madness posted by Christopher
    Rivera on January 13, 1998 at 09:33:25:
    
    People on this page have stated that the C will soon always go to 168
    St. - Washington Hts. and the B train will get all the constantly
    changing northern terminals (145 St, Bedford Park Blvd,
    21-Queensbridge, 36 St-4th Avenue). Then the C's only variations will
    be Euclid Avenue or WTC. The B will always go south to Coney Island.
    
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NEXT>8333
PREVIOUS>8216
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
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SUBJECT>Re: Washington DC Green Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:42:32 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 13, 1998 at 09:57:02:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Washington DC Green Line posted by Carl M. Rabbin
    on January 12, 1998 at 13:50:43:
    
    Thank you. I had heard about this interesting service before. One
    thing: EGAD! A public transit agency has actually started a service to
    serve the passengers, not move the vehicles!! Let us hope that this
    radical idea will spread to the rest of the industry.
    
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NEXT>8324
PREVIOUS>8229
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
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SUBJECT>Re: Septa
DATE>Jan 23 09:42:34 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 13, 1998 at 10:03:03:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Septa posted by Wallace N. Grommit on January 12,
    1998 at 19:17:00:
    
    More quality work by Adtranz. Has this company ever managed to deliver
    a car order on time and built to "spec"?
    
    Since SEPTA and the Maryland MTA are both struggling with current
    Adtranz orders, and both orders are full of problems, is this a sign
    taht no rail property should deal with Adtranz again?
    
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NEXT>8303
PREVIOUS>8259
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
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SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:42:35 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 13, 1998 at 10:39:28:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
    posted by a aprdi on January 13, 1998 at 00:23:10:
    
    I can remember waiting for my mom to come home form work. My dad would
    get home earlier and he and I would drive to Willets Point on the
    Flushing line, and the token clerk would allow me to go through the
    slam gate and wait under the heater at the mezzanine, across from what
    used to be one of the greasiest hot dog stands in creation (which also
    sold Jets and Mets souvenirs.) I also remember waiting on the mezz. at
    74th Street under a heater, for a Northbound 7 local to show up. (The
    25 cent soft pretzels there were "off the charts" (and no, I did not
    eat my way throught the subway system.)
    
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NEXT>8289
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Michael S. Buglak 
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SUBJECT>Boston's Green Line "E" Branch
DATE>Jan 23 09:42:38 1998
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Posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 13, 1998 at 10:44:54:

   Does anyone know when full rail service will be restored on the MBTA's
    Green Line "E" Brnach from Heath Street to Arborway? Also, why does
    the replacement Route 39 bus run all the way to Back Bay Station on
    the Orange Line inbound, instead from just Heath Street to Forest
    Hills?
    Thanks!
    Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA (Visiting Boston)
    
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NEXT>8277
PREVIOUS>8261
POSTER>David Pirmann 
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SUBJECT>Re: The "Line by Line" Posts
DATE>Jan 23 09:42:41 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 13, 1998 at 10:56:54:

   In Reply to: [8]The "Line by Line" Posts posted by Will on January 13,
    1998 at 08:57:00:
    
    When Mark is done editing he'll send me the finished text, I'll mark
    it up into a web page, and add photos from the site.
    
    In the mean time, if anyone else wants to work on a history, here's
    what no one is working on (that I know of)
    
    
    Queens -
    
    Flushing, Jamaica, Fulton - Rockaway, IND Queens Boulevard
    (Astoria - in progress)
    
    Brooklyn
    
    Brighton/Franklin (Mark?), IND Church St
    
    Bronx
    
    Pelham 6, Woodlawn 4, 241-st - 2, 3rd Avenue El, IND Concourse
    (Dyre Ave. - in progress see [9]NY Westchester & Boston)
    
    Etc. etc. etc.
    
    -Dave
    
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NEXT>8320
PREVIOUS>8244
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
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SUBJECT>Re: Priorities
DATE>Jan 23 09:42:43 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 13, 1998 at 11:50:41:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Priorities posted by Peter Gray on January 12,
    1998 at 21:47:34:
    
    It all sounds promising, but keep in mind one political fact of life;
    any reversion of these transportation facilities to "Private
    Enterprise" would have to be loaded down with review boards and/or
    oversight comittees in order to placate the public who would suspect a
    rip-off. These are the mechanisms which contribute to the
    unresponsiveness of bureaucracies, so the worst aspects of municipal
    operation would still be present.
    
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NEXT>8284
PREVIOUS>8275
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
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SUBJECT>Re: The "Line by Line" Posts
DATE>Jan 23 09:42:45 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 13, 1998 at 12:00:00:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: The "Line by Line" Posts posted by David Pirmann
    on January 13, 1998 at 10:56:54:
    
    David, I might be able to tackle Flushing, and/or Queens Boulevard in
    the next few weeks. Flushing is the line I know best, and the one
    where I have the most pictures. I have seen the great pieces already
    composed on this site, but if you have any druthers, let me know.
    Should any of my colleagues absolutely KNOW they have the time to
    commit, I will defer.
    
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NEXT>8279
PREVIOUS>8269
POSTER>John Stewart 
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SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
DATE>Jan 23 09:42:46 1998
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Posted by John Stewart on January 13, 1998 at 12:01:55:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by
    Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 09:46:49:
    
    What was the route of this line? Did the train go from 179 Jamaica,
    then into Manhattan and out to Brooklyn? I used to take the E train
    regularly from the World Trade Center to 71st/Continental Ave. I can't
    imagine it going to the Rockaways.
    
    By the way, I always enjoy your postings, Carl. They're always
    extremely informative. You also have a great sense of history. Thanks!
    
    
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NEXT>8281
PREVIOUS>8278
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
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SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
DATE>Jan 23 09:42:48 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 13, 1998 at 12:27:01:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by
    John Stewart on January 13, 1998 at 12:01:55:
    
    The E train used to run to Euclid Ave and Rockaway Park along the same
    route as the "A" train.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8265
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
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SUBJECT>Re: The Ex C train Line The madness
DATE>Jan 23 09:42:50 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 13, 1998 at 12:28:05:

   In Reply to: [8]The Ex C train Line The madness posted by Christopher
    Rivera on January 13, 1998 at 09:33:25:
    
    It pretty much replaced the old AA (and later the K) train which was
    the 8 Ave local Between 168th-WTC all times except rush hours and late
    nights. As for political and/or other reasons - I don't know.
    
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NEXT>8282
PREVIOUS>8279
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
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SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
DATE>Jan 23 09:42:52 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 13, 1998 at 12:30:58:

   In Reply to: [8]Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by
    Christopher Rivera on January 13, 1998 at 09:24:39:
    
    Not totally sure, but I thought that the A from 207th-Bway to Mott
    Ave-Far Rock was the longest TA line.
    
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NEXT>8283
PREVIOUS>8281
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
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SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
DATE>Jan 23 09:42:54 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 13, 1998 at 12:31:02:

   In Reply to: [8]Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by
    Christopher Rivera on January 13, 1998 at 09:24:39:
    
    Today, the longest line is the A from 207th to Far Rockaway, at about
    32 miles. I believe the 2 is a close second.
    
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NEXT>8304
PREVIOUS>8282
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
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SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
DATE>Jan 23 09:42:55 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 13, 1998 at 12:34:35:

   In Reply to: [8]Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by
    Christopher Rivera on January 13, 1998 at 09:24:39:
    
    Other long lines that I can think of are:
    - A train from 207th St Manhattan to Mott Ave in Far Rockaway
    - D train from 205th St in the Bronx to Coney Island, Brooklyn
    - 2 train from 241st & White Plains Road the Bronx to Flatbush Ave,
    Brooklyn
    - 5 train from Dyre Ave to Flatbush Ave Brooklyn
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8285
PREVIOUS>8277
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
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SUBJECT>Re: The "Line by Line" Posts
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:00 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 13, 1998 at 12:44:52:

   In Reply to: [8]The "Line by Line" Posts posted by Will on January 13,
    1998 at 08:57:00:
    
    Will ..
    
    Thanks for the positive comments regarding my "line by line" posts.
    Seems I've started a trend!
    
    I posted them here for comments, corrections, omissions, and the like,
    because many of the people who follow SubTalk know the history better
    than I do, especially regarding older service routings. I have
    received some terrific feedback on them from folks' personal
    experiences and memories with the lines. Once I get the info, I add it
    to my text as appropriate. When all is said and done. I'll send the
    whole kit and kaboodle to Dave and we'll get the pictures included,
    too. (Everything's already in HTML as I've been using Netscape's
    Composer to create it all, and I've just copied/pasted it to SubTalk.)
    
    Regarding Brighton / Franklin, yes, I'm going to revise the existing
    text on the Brighton Line and make it consistent with the others I've
    created. As my "home" line, I have lots to say on it from a railfan's
    point of view. I'm also going to do a writeup on the 4th Avenue
    (Brooklyn) subway because 3 of the 4 lines I already covered ran into
    it at some point in their histories, and I have some info on it as
    well.
    
    After that, I dunno, I'll find one no one else started doing yet!
    
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8286
PREVIOUS>8284
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
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SUBJECT>Re: The "Line by Line" Posts
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:02 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 13, 1998 at 12:46:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: The "Line by Line" Posts posted by David Pirmann
    on January 13, 1998 at 10:56:54:
    
    Dave, yes, I'll update the current entry on the Brighton Line and will
    also do one on the 4th Ave (Brooklyn) Subway. It'll nicely tie the
    stuff I did about Sea Beach & West End together.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8287
PREVIOUS>8285
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
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SUBJECT>Re: The "Line by Line" Posts
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:04 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 13, 1998 at 12:48:34:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: The "Line by Line" Posts posted by Charles Fiori
    on January 13, 1998 at 12:00:00:
    
    Go for it, Charles. If you know stuff on the once vast Queensboro
    Plaza before the demise of the 2nd AVe El, that would be a treat.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8286
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
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SUBJECT>Re: The "Line by Line" Posts
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:07 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 13, 1998 at 13:00:38:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: The "Line by Line" Posts posted by Mark S Feinman
    on January 13, 1998 at 12:48:34:
    
    O, Guru of the line-by-lines, I am not worthy. :-)
    
    The book I have on NY Elevateds has a good write-up on the Queensboro
    Plaza complex. Like others, I wondered what the structure was along
    the Flushing bound local track that stub ended just before the curve
    into Rawson St and had no idea that there was actually a duplicate set
    of platforms north of what's there now.
    
    This will be fun, but to do it right, it will take some time, as I am
    sure you will agree. Any Flushing experts out there, feel free to
    chime in.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
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SUBJECT>Re: Queensboro Bridge Trolley (Re: Last day of service questions)
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:09 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 13, 1998 at 13:18:58:

   In Reply to: [8]Brooklyn Trolleys (Re: Last day of service questions)
    posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 15:14:57:
    
    The Queensboro Bridge Trolley ran into 1957, but does anyone remember
    when in 1957 they stopped running?? June??
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8294
PREVIOUS>8274
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
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SUBJECT>Re: Boston's Green Line "E" Branch
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:11 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on January 13, 1998 at 13:26:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Boston's Green Line "E" Branch posted by Michael S.
    Buglak on January 13, 1998 at 10:44:54:
    
    There are no "current" plans to restore trolley service along the E
    branch of the Green Line to Arborway. The MBTA says that (1) they
    don't have enough cars and (2) the streets are too narrow and crowded
    for service. Well, the new Bredas arrive this and next year; PCCs ran
    successfully in the streets to Arborway for decades. Many of us who
    live in Boston believe that there should be immediate resumption of
    service, but the MBTA has resisted for a long time.
    
    When trolley service was discontinued from Arborway the MBTA agreed to
    maintain one-seat rides to Copley, which is why the bus still goes
    there.
    
    -Todd (in Phoenix for a weather conference, where there is NO electric
    rail service of any kind!)
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8270
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
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SUBJECT>Re: The C train Line The madness -- Soon to End
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:14 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 13:34:15:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: The C train Line The madness -- Soon to End posted
    by Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 09:50:06:
    
    I have given it some more thought. Why they have done this thing that
    confuses you so much is:
    
    Traditionally the C (and previously CC) always went up the Concourse
    line during rush hours. When the MTA decided to cut back the number of
    letters of trains (and especially to revert to one letter for each
    train), it was logical to make every 8th Avenue / Central Park West
    local the C train and every 6th Avenue / CPW local the B train. I
    don't find the terminals so confusing: weekdays Euclid, weekends WTC;
    rush BPB, weekdays 145, weekends 168. You just see which one it says
    and take it if it goes where you need to.
    
    The C has been sort of a catchall local for local/express service all
    over the 8th Avenue subway. And because it's a local most people only
    worry about one end of it per trip. If you start at 167 St. in the
    Bronx the odds are you are not going to take it all the way to
    Kingston-Throop in Brooklyn. Anyway, now I'm just being argumentative.
    
    But the new schedule will make it easier. The C will hardly change at
    all, just the Euclid vs. WTC terminals. The B, well that's a different
    story (actually the same story -- catchall local -- all over again).
    
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NEXT>8344
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Rob Stougher 
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SUBJECT>Automated trains
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:16 1998
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Posted by Rob Stougher on January 13, 1998 at 13:39:01:

   If the DC Subway is automated except for doors, then is there a set
    time limit the operator has? If, for instance the motorman was to not
    pay attention (when I was there he was reading a book) is he alerted?
    
    American Airlines set up a fully automated "trAAm" service between
    their terminals at DFW. It is within the security zone of the airport,
    and features a glass partition that separates the track from the
    terminal. Doors line up with, what can best be described as
    supermarket doors and they both open together. There is a series of
    signs, TrAAm Aproaching, Board TrAAm now, Do Not Board TrAAm now, and
    a VMS. According to the plan, it runs every 2 minutes, but people are
    impatient, and try to hold open the doors. I believe there to be 3
    trAAms on the system, and I was in one that stopped because of "door
    operation interferance".
    
    I like the two-partion system, I think if modren subways were to
    install such a system (which I know to be impossible) it would make it
    that much harder to "fall" on to the rails, enter the tunnels for
    vandialization, and you could enable climate control of the individual
    stations, elevated or underground.
    
    If DART rapid rail ever gets to its goal, this would be nice, keep me
    out of the heat!
    
    Y'all Respond, now, ya hear!
    Rob, from Big D
    
    
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NEXT>8293
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:18 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 13:41:25:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by
    John Stewart on January 13, 1998 at 12:01:55:
    
    Thank you. When I write my stories, it's almost like being there
    again. But that's the first sign that one is over 40, they say.
    
    I still vote for the E train to Rockaway Park as the longest ever. And
    yes, it went right from Jamaica through Roosevelt Ave, Queens Plaza
    (let me just get off for a second to get a Gyro), 8th Ave,
    Bway-Nassau, express under Fulton Street, right over the water to
    Rockaway Park, during rush hours only. The A was the local in Brooklyn
    to Lefferts Blvd. And at least half those express E trains in rush
    hour only went to Euclid Avenue.
    
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NEXT>8308
PREVIOUS>8292
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:20 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 13, 1998 at 13:54:00:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Longest Lines Past posted by Carl M. Rabbin on
    January 13, 1998 at 13:41:25:
    
    And just realize, when the "E" headed out to Lefferts, how close it
    was to its starting point, or at least to a station like Union
    Tpke.-Kew Gardens. Prob. not many who rode that line from beginning to
    end!
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8289
POSTER>Timothy S. Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Boston's Green Line "E" Branch
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:22 1998
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Posted by Timothy S. Speer on January 13, 1998 at 13:59:39:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Boston's Green Line "E" Branch posted by Todd
    Glickman on January 13, 1998 at 13:26:22:
    
    A couple of things lead me to believe that trolleys will probably
    never again run all the way out to Arborway. I live on Arborway, just
    up the hill from South Street and have noticed the following:
    
    1. The Arborway yards have been converted to a parking lot for the
    Forest Hills stop
    2. The overhead wires have been removed from the Arborway yard back to
    around Rosemary Street
    
    Question: Are the wires still live all the way to where they have been
    cut back?
    
    I agree that with the way people in Boston drive and double park, it
    would be a nightmare to restore E service past Heath. Perhaps with
    INTENSE enforcement and no left turn restrictions on Centre and South
    Streets things could be different. I sure would love to be able to
    catch a trolley practically at my doorstep, despite the fact that it's
    only a few hundred feet to the Orange and Commuter lines.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8268
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: position light signals (Attn: David Pirmann)
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:24 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 13, 1998 at 14:32:59:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: position light signals (Attn: David Pirmann)
    posted by Andrew Byler on January 13, 1998 at 09:44:34:
    
    I removed the article that you mention. Some PRR fans mailed me and
    informed me othat there were errors in it. Whether or not there were
    actually any errors or not I don't really know, but I figured I'd
    leave it to the PRR fan web sites to do. If you look in the [9]Rail
    and Transit Sites list there is a link or two to PRR web sites that
    have more detailed information.
    
    -Dave
    
    
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NEXT>8300
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:27 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 16:05:22:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Longest Lines Past posted by Charles Fiori on
    January 13, 1998 at 13:54:00:
    
    I know they would never do this but...
    
    What if they ran a train from Jamaica Center down Jamaica Avenue over
    the Williamsburg Bridge, through the non-revenue connection to
    Bway-Lafayette, up 6th Avenue, across 53 St to Queens Plaza and then
    to (Ta Da) Jamaica Center? Now that would be a strange one...
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8180
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:31 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 13, 1998 at 16:05:34:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
    posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 15:42:24:
    
    I can remember when the F only went as far as Bway-Lafayette or 34-6
    Av. The R-38s were actually on the F by then as I can remember the
    signs depicting that routing. Those flip-dot pieces of ...just don't
    cut it.
    
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NEXT>8317
PREVIOUS>8258
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:36 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 13, 1998 at 16:20:20:

   In Reply to: [7]New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
    posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 22:31:48:
    
    In adding to your thoughts on use of the Sea Beach express tracks, I
    can remember that once I had to get from Ave. X shops to the Wall St.
    area IN A HURRY! Unfortunately, they were doing midday work on the N/B
    local tracks and so I had to take a southbound to Coney Island and
    then ride back north. I thought I would end up making good time riding
    express all the way into Manhattan, but the ride on the n/b express
    tracks was s-l-o-w. I think that the only switches along this stretch
    are in the area of Kings Highway. So, if you want to count this usage
    as "revenue" service...[This would have been fall of 1988 as I can
    remember listening to the Mets-Dodgers playoff on a walkman.]
    
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NEXT>8544
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Julio Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Unpainted MTA Stainless Steel Subway Car Question
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:39 1998
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Posted by Julio Perez on January 13, 1998 at 16:55:22:

   Are there any documents that are available to the general public, via
    the Internet or through a library publication, that discusses the
    amount of monetary savings the MTA has achieved by removing all paint
    and stick-ons from the exteriors of stainless steel-bodied trains
    (e.g., R-32, R-38, R-40/40M, etc.)?
    
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NEXT>8301
PREVIOUS>8296
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:41 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on January 13, 1998 at 16:59:29:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line posted by
    Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 16:05:22:
    
    I can see the rollsigns now:
    
    JAMAICA CENTER to
    JAMAICA CENTER via
    BRIDGE and
    TUNNEL
    
    nice :-)
    
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NEXT>8314
PREVIOUS>8300
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:44 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 13, 1998 at 17:37:02:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line posted by
    Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 16:05:22:
    
    Any thoughts as to which would be north and which south? My guess
    would be that the E-Jamaica Center would be north as you would have to
    travel north along 6 Avenue to get to the Queens Boulevard line. Also,
    isn't the E-Jamaica center upstairs?
    Also, consider this: If the routing encompassed the 6 Av lower level
    express and the 63rd Street connection to Queens Boulevard, on its way
    from one Jam Ctr to the other, of the newest construction since the
    60s, the only piece missing would be stopping at Grand St. (6 av lwr
    lvl, 57-6, 63 street, and Archer Ave are the newest pieces) and the
    connection from 57-7 to 63d St. I smell another fantrip brewing!!!
    
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NEXT>8310
PREVIOUS>8260
POSTER>david vartanoff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:46 1998
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Posted by david vartanoff on January 13, 1998 at 18:06:58:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
    posted by Dan Schwartz on January 13, 1998 at 06:22:16:
    
    I explicitly remember that in 66 the F terminated midtown late
    evenings nights. In turn you and I probably were in some of the same
    places over that weekend as I also spent much of it out on the subway
    including hanging in the platform conductor's booth at DeKalb
    announcing a train. Rode first 'new' N over southside Mbridge. Was
    there Monday morning AM rush helping to direct passengers as most of
    the trains had wrong or blank head signs. I loved the color code
    signage which came in then, but the best of all was an R-40 with a
    green fluorescent tube among the several tubes back lighting the huge
    route letter display. Green & fuscia yum!
    
    
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NEXT>8480
PREVIOUS>8273
POSTER>John Stewart 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:49 1998
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Posted by John Stewart on January 13, 1998 at 18:18:20:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
    posted by Charles Fiori on January 13, 1998 at 10:39:28:
    
    I have an interesting story about heated waiting areas on the subway.
    At one time (this was approximately 1984/1985), I had very good
    friends I used to visit frequently in the Bronx. They lived in a large
    high-rise coop on Sedgewick. I used to take the IRT 4 to Mosholu Pkway
    (as I recall) and they would usually meet me at the station. One
    weekend evening, I was visiting and we heard severe storm warnings on
    the radio. I ended up staying the night and they drove me to Mosholu
    Pkway station the next morning. It was unbelievably cold, and I as
    struggled up the steps, I noticed (on the mezzanine level, I believe)
    what appeared to be an ancient waiting room (it also appeared to have
    frosted glass windows!). I entered and there was a pot belly stove
    that provided a scorching level of heat. I couldn't believe that such
    a thing could be found in New York City in the mid-80s! It was more
    like something you'd expect to find in a general store in West
    Virginia! I've always wondered from where the wood (or coal?) for
    heating that stove came. And who maintained it? Certainly not the
    token booth clerk!
    
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NEXT>8369
PREVIOUS>8283
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:51 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 13, 1998 at 18:49:58:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by
    John Stewart on January 13, 1998 at 12:01:55:
    
    My recollection from 1957-1963 was that all AM E-trains came into
    Euclid avenue from the yards to begin their express runs, and in the
    PM conversely terminated at Euclid. Only A trains went on to Lefferts
    and the Rockaways.
    
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NEXT>8527
PREVIOUS>8125
POSTER>Blade-Runner 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:54 1998
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Posted by Blade-Runner on January 13, 1998 at 19:21:46:

   In Reply to: [7]The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great posted
    by Carl M. Rabbin on January 09, 1998 at 14:30:31:
    
    Where does the trolley go which runs along 2nd Street in Philadelphia
    (or is it 3rd?)? I see a lot about the subway/surface trolleys running
    out to the west, but little about this line which runs on the street
    downtown and appears to go quite far north. The last time I saw it
    (about 5 years ago) the cars were still really old ones...
    
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NEXT>8313
PREVIOUS>8253
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Metrocard fraud
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:56 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 13, 1998 at 20:24:45:

   In Reply to: [8]Metrocard fraud posted by A. Pardi on January 13, 1998
    at 01:04:00:
    
    I heard of this guy one time who has the key to a gate that allows
    entrance into a subway station, and he lets people in for a dollar.
    But the Police are unable to stop him because everytime they bust him
    they can't find the key anywhere. Has anyone else heard this story,
    and if so what station is it and is this guy still in operation?
    
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NEXT>8312
PREVIOUS>8200
POSTER>faxman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Elizabeth Light Rail
DATE>Jan 23 09:43:58 1998
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Posted by faxman on January 13, 1998 at 20:36:26:

   In Reply to: [7]Elizabeth Light Rail posted by Blaise Dupuy on January
    11, 1998 at 23:45:24:
    
    
    i f your thinking about the cnj bridge its long gone.
    
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NEXT>8328
PREVIOUS>8293
POSTER>Mike B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past
DATE>Jan 23 09:44:01 1998
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Posted by Mike B on January 13, 1998 at 20:50:35:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past posted by Carl M. Rabbin on
    January 13, 1998 at 13:41:25:
    
    Not only was the E the longest ride, it also had a BIG variety of
    equipment.
    Before the E was permanently cut back at WTC, the equipment used
    varied tremendously. On any given day, I would see the following:
    R1/9's, R-38's, R-40slant's (exclusive to E and F trains), R-40M's,
    R-42's, R-44's and R-46's.
    
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NEXT>8326
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Joker 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Septa Trolley Routes
DATE>Jan 23 09:44:03 1998
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Posted by Joker on January 13, 1998 at 20:56:50:

   Can anyone provide an update on whether Philadelphia trolley service
    will ever be restored on the 23 (Chestnut Hill), 15 (Girard Avenue),
    and 56 lines? I understand the 56 is supposed to be 'permanently'
    converted to a bus, but that the wires and tracks are (for now) all
    still there.
    
    The 23 & 15 were among the most interesting trolley routes left in the
    US, and it will be a real tragedy if they disappear...
    
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NEXT>8316
PREVIOUS>8302
POSTER>Mike B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
DATE>Jan 23 09:44:06 1998
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Posted by Mike B on January 13, 1998 at 21:02:44:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
    posted by david vartanoff on January 13, 1998 at 18:06:58:
    
    There were stories written that on the 1st day the Chrystie Street
    Connection opened, no one knew which trains went where and there was
    mass confusion throughout the system because of this. Does anyone
    remember how bad it really was? Did the TA (MTA) not
    advertise/announce the changes in advance or were the reports of mass
    confusion exaggerated?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Joe-M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>1938-41 Subway Pictures
DATE>Jan 23 09:44:12 1998
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Posted by Joe-M on January 13, 1998 at 21:11:50:

   I found some interesting subway pictures from 1938 to 1941 in a
    photography book
    
    The title is "Walker Evans: First and last" 1978 Harper Row Publishers
    
    Pages 134-139.
    
    They are interior shots on wood cars. Portraits of the riders but the
    interior details are great. Wood windows, route maps behind the riders
    and the stations through the windows.
    
    There are other NYC shots and pictures form around the country of
    streetscapes with trolley track and overheads in place (No Streetcars
    visable though.
    
    It's worth a trip to the library to have a look
    
    Pg 153 is noted as the Container Corporation Site. No city is listed
    but it looks like the train tunnel under the St. Louis Arch Park. Does
    any one else recognize the location?
    
    Joe
    
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NEXT>8357
PREVIOUS>8307
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Elizabeth Light Rail
DATE>Jan 23 09:44:14 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 13, 1998 at 21:45:33:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Elizabeth Light Rail posted by faxman on January
    13, 1998 at 20:36:26:
    
    No, the bridge in question is the B&O bridge across the Arthur Kill
    (right beside the Goethals Bridge). It's still there and it is
    supposed to be reactivated soon.
    
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NEXT>8315
PREVIOUS>8306
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Metrocard fraud
DATE>Jan 23 09:44:17 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 13, 1998 at 23:03:23:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Metrocard fraud posted by Adam on January 13, 1998
    at 20:24:45:
    
    That story was recounted in the book _Subway Lives_, written in 1989
    or 1990. It took place, as I recall, at Greenpoint Avenue.
    As bureaucratic as the TA might be, I'm sure they've finally changed
    the lock and shut down this operation ... presumably :-)
    
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NEXT>8368
PREVIOUS>8301
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:44:19 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 13, 1998 at 23:05:34:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line posted by
    Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 16:05:22:
    
    >What if they ran a train from Jamaica Center down Jamaica Avenue over
    the >Williamsburg
    >Bridge, through the non-revenue connection to Bway-Lafayette, up 6th
    >Avenue, across 53 St
    >to Queens Plaza and then to (Ta Da) Jamaica Center? Now that would be
    a >strange one...
    
    It sure would be a strange routing ... but not quite a circle, thanks
    to the missing E/J connection at Sutphin Avenue.
    
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NEXT>8325
PREVIOUS>8313
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Metrocard fraud
DATE>Jan 23 09:44:21 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 13, 1998 at 23:40:28:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Metrocard fraud posted by Peter Rosa on January
    13, 1998 at 23:03:23:
    
    Back in the 80s,every station lock was keyed the same and virtually
    every employee had a TA400 key. Now, station department has changed
    all of the locks and the keys are not nearly so freely distributed. To
    date, I have not been given one.
    
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NEXT>8319
PREVIOUS>8310
POSTER>Dan Schwartz 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
DATE>Jan 23 09:44:23 1998
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Posted by Dan Schwartz on January 14, 1998 at 00:13:18:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
    posted by Mike B on January 13, 1998 at 21:02:44:
    
    > Did the TA (MTA) not advertise/announce the changes in
    > advance or were the reports of mass confusion exaggerated?
    
    They certainly did announce them well in advance, with colorful,
    descriptive flyers being handed out at token booths for several weeks
    before the change. But New Yorkers being New Yorkers, some people just
    didn't "RTFM" and so there was apparently a significant level of
    confusion.
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>8338
PREVIOUS>8298
POSTER>Dan Schwartz 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:44:25 1998
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Posted by Dan Schwartz on January 14, 1998 at 00:17:12:

   In Reply to: [8]New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
    posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 22:31:48:
    
    I'm surprised you didn't discuss the LIRR tracks that share the same
    "cut" with the Sea Beach tracks between the 4th Ave. subway and New
    Utrecht Ave. Do you know how this shared right-of-way came to be?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8264
POSTER>steve L 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: March 98 Westside depot
DATE>Jan 23 09:44:28 1998
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Posted by steve L on January 14, 1998 at 00:21:05:

   In Reply to: [8]March 98 Westside depot posted by Fernando Perez on
    January 13, 1998 at 01:57:40:
    
    
    thank you for the info ---Steve
    
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NEXT>8331
PREVIOUS>8316
POSTER>david vartanoff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
DATE>Jan 23 09:44:31 1998
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Posted by david vartanoff on January 14, 1998 at 00:45:13:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
    posted by Mike B on January 13, 1998 at 21:02:44:
    
    although notices were posted in the subway cars saying certain routes
    would br replaced with new routes the actual new services were not
    well described and indeed on the first abd many suceeding dats many
    trains operated with wrong or missing signage. frinstance "B 6th Ave
    Express-168 Jamaica" !! I remember seeing some neighborhood paper in
    Bay Ridge the next summer still complaining about the changes and
    calling for a return to old routes. Part of the problem had to do with
    "skips DeKalb during rush hour" patterns. In any event the lack of
    clear signage and poor training of personnel combined with ingrained
    hanits = snafu. Now of course its all water under whats left of the
    bridge.
    
    
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NEXT>8321
PREVIOUS>8276
POSTER>Mike Rothenberg 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Priorities
DATE>Jan 23 09:44:33 1998
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Posted by Mike Rothenberg on January 14, 1998 at 00:49:44:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Priorities posted by David Pirmann - web site host
    on January 11, 1998 at 14:45:40:
    
    Dave,
    
    I appreciate your thoughtful reply. I was born and raised in Brooklyn
    and have lived out west for many, many years. So, unfortunately, I
    can't help in the needed effort, as you so aptly described. If there
    are readers who can help get this addressed with appropriate Manhattan
    Bridge replacement infrastructure(s), please do so. If there are
    organizations already existing that can tackle this problem, they
    should work to develop a coordinated approach. As I mentioned in my
    earlier posting, I think preservation and maintenance (or providing
    appropriate alternatives) of existing infrastructure (e.g., the
    Manhattan Bridge problem) is a higher priority than constructing new
    facilities.
    
    Wouldn't it feel good, at some time in the future, to know that you
    played a role in seeing that tens of thousands of southern Brooklyn
    subway riders were not abandoned, but had adequate service into
    Manhattan, as a result of your efforts to provide adequate Bridge
    substitute infrastructure?
    
    I'm confident something constructive (no pun intended) can come from a
    well-planned and coordinated effort.
    
    Mike Rothenberg
    
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NEXT>8530
PREVIOUS>8320
POSTER>Mike Rothenberg 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Priorities
DATE>Jan 23 09:44:36 1998
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Posted by Mike Rothenberg on January 14, 1998 at 00:54:12:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Priorities posted by Mike Rothenberg on January
    14, 1998 at 00:49:44:
    
    My above e-mail wasn't directed just to Dave. I should have been
    clearer that it was aimed at all readers.
    
    Mike Rothenberg
    
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NEXT>8355
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!!
DATE>Jan 23 09:44:41 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 14, 1998 at 01:02:24:

   Ok..here's 2 quickies (maybe not):
    
    Comming into New Haven on the Hartford/Springfield line, I noticed
    that conrail, or Slamtrak has a yard there, a bit past the Metro North
    ones. This is before we come "under the wire", but I'm noticeing that
    there are what look to be concrete bases of (removed) catenary
    trusses. Sure enough, a bit before the Boston line meets up with us, I
    notice there is one truss that's still up (but no wires). And on it is
    one of those old "Dangerous Live Wires 11,000 volts" on it. Now I know
    TODAY that the wires end at New Haven, but did they ever extend beyond
    there, and how far up this line did they go??
    
    Also, what is that abandoned extension right after Bridgeport. You
    know, the one that still has the viaduct and support poles on it.
    Yeah, that one. Where'd it go, and what's it's status.
    
    Oh yeah, if anyone cares, I found the schematic (and drum/notch
    diagrams) for New Haven's old old electric locomotives. 22 DC notches,
    15 AC ones. I've also got a (simplified??) one for the AC MP-54's
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8143
POSTER>Keith A. Reinsdorf 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Brooklyn Trolleys (Re: Last day of service questions)
DATE>Jan 23 09:44:47 1998
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Posted by Keith A. Reinsdorf on January 14, 1998 at 01:48:50:

   In Reply to: [8]Brooklyn Trolleys (Re: Last day of service questions)
    posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 15:14:57:
    
    While it is correct that the Church Avenue Trolley last ran on October
    31, 1956, the McDonald Avenue Trolley was in operation into early/mid
    1957.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8272
POSTER>Wallace N. Grommit 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Septa
DATE>Jan 23 09:44:50 1998
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Posted by Wallace N. Grommit on January 14, 1998 at 01:53:40:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Septa posted by Dan Lawrence on January 13, 1998
    at 10:03:03:
    
    A high ranking source in the Pennsylvania DOT has revealed that the
    PaDOT is going to be placing an order for diesel multiple unit
    trainsets from AdTranz. This led me to come up with the following
    assesment of the situation- they're screwed.
    
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NEXT>8360
PREVIOUS>8315
POSTER>Gary 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Metrocard fraud
DATE>Jan 23 09:44:53 1998
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Posted by Gary on January 14, 1998 at 09:18:02:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Metrocard fraud posted by Steve on January 13,
    1998 at 23:40:28:
    
    The keys remain the same but the locks have been changed to protect
    the innocent.
    
    Both the 400 and the 69 keys are restricted in distribution but for
    the most part, availible, as are many others.
    
    
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NEXT>8327
PREVIOUS>8309
POSTER>Will 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Septa Trolley Routes
DATE>Jan 23 09:44:57 1998
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Posted by Will on January 14, 1998 at 09:32:05:

   In Reply to: [7]Septa Trolley Routes posted by Joker on January 13,
    1998 at 20:56:50:
    
    
    The recently approved SEPTA budget has, I believe, made provision for
    the preliminary study and design work for the restoration of Route 15.
    Unfortunately, I am not so sure about any plans for Route 23, however.
    
    Route 15 will not simply be a trolley route - it has now been given
    the official moniker of "Girard Avenue Light Rail" by the powers that
    be. This is a blatant attempt to make it sexier, I guess. The Route 15
    will primarily benefit from the oft-mentioned but seldom-practiced
    "Transit First" policy of the City of Philadelphia: much of the Route
    15 will still run in the center of the street but there will be
    improved signage at stops, fewer stops to improve speed, more
    shelters, "bump-outs" at the end of the block at a stop so that
    patrons may board without standing in the street, strict traffic and
    parking enforcement along the trolley route, "foul" lines on the
    street so cars don't block running lanes or turn radii, etc. As far as
    I know "Transit First" does not really include anything as high-tech
    as signal pre-emption, which would truly speed up a surface streetcar
    route!
    
    The plan also depends - I think - on the purchase of new low-floor
    LRV's for the five Subway-Surface Routes (10, 11, 13, 34 and 36) so
    that surplus Kawasaki cars of early 1980's vintage will operate on the
    "new" Girard Avenue Light Rail.
    
    I have also heard that this plan was "accelerated" by the SEPTA board
    after Mayor Rendell (of Philly) became a squeaky wheel and bitched
    that too much capital funds were being spent in the suburban counties
    and that the promised restoration of some pure streetcar routes was
    simply taking too darn long. Good for him, I say. But not a good idea
    to disparage improvements for too many suburbanites - after all, they
    work in Philly (if they ride SEPTA because - let's face it - most
    suburb-to-suburb trips are by car) and pay the wage tax as everyone
    else does. (Rudy take note RE: PATH!)
    
    Anyway, that's all I know about these routes. I suggest you check out
    either DVARP's webpage or the Philadelphia Trolley Coalition's webpage
    as well. I believe this site has links to them.
    
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NEXT>8365
PREVIOUS>8326
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Septa Trolley Routes
DATE>Jan 23 09:44:59 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 14, 1998 at 09:33:20:

   In Reply to: [7]Septa Trolley Routes posted by Joker on January 13,
    1998 at 20:56:50:
    
    All 3 North Philadelphia streetcar lines are supposed to return early
    in the 21st century. New articulated LRV's are to be ordered and this
    will release enough of the 1981 Kawasaki lrv's to re-equip the 3
    lines. There is a strong rumor that 15 (Girard Avenue) will return
    this summer, using lrv's. SEPTA sends a car over the entire 3 lines
    once a month to inspect the tracks and wires. The Philadelphia transit
    scene is very fluid and just about anything can and sometimes does
    happen.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8308
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:06 1998
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Posted by Ed Sachs on January 14, 1998 at 09:41:15:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past posted by Carl M. Rabbin on
    January 13, 1998 at 13:41:25:
    
    I recall that around 1962 the E train ran rush hours to both Rockaway
    Park and Far Rockaway (express in Brooklyn, the A train to Lefferts
    Blvd ran local in Brooklyn). That would make the longest run from
    179th St Jamaica - Far Rockaway (a bit further than Rockaway Park).
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Gary 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Transit Employees
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:08 1998
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Posted by Gary on January 14, 1998 at 09:42:17:

   Any and all Transit employees, I suppose all cities would be wecome!!,
    that would like to participate in a shared forum or bullitin board of
    ideas,stories,venting,observation,and the like, please e.mail me
    direct to be included as this site takes shape.
    
    I hope you will participate. Be patient, these things take time : )
    
    Gary
    
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NEXT>8337
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lou from Middletown 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>MetroCard ? from a non-techy
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:10 1998
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Posted by Lou from Middletown on January 14, 1998 at 09:43:59:

   Just out of curiosity, how are they going to program the Monthly,etc
    MetroCards, so that multiple passengers can't use them at once?? For
    example, someone buys a Daily Pass (they gotta think of a good name
    for these!) for $4, whats going to stop them using for 2 or three
    people, but let whomever still use it in an "unlimited" way??? Just
    curious!!
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8319
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:12 1998
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Posted by Ed Sachs on January 14, 1998 at 09:47:23:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
    posted by Dan Schwartz on January 14, 1998 at 00:13:18:
    
    I recall the colorful flyers. I also recall that full system maps were
    not
    made available until some weeks after the changeover.
    
    
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NEXT>8334
PREVIOUS>8267
POSTER>Mark Greenwald 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: DC Area's Metro-rail
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:14 1998
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Posted by Mark Greenwald on January 14, 1998 at 09:48:47:

   In Reply to: [8]DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Chris Matheson on
    January 12, 1998 at 16:05:32:
    
    To answer your questions---Yes, the system is fully automated, the
    only thing the "motormen" do is open the doors and do announcements.
    That's not to mention though that in the case of an emergency, they
    could manually operate a train or in a yard area. As for a link to
    Metro, here it is
    [9]This is a link to Metro
    
    
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NEXT>8362
PREVIOUS>8271
POSTER>Mark Greenwald 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Washington DC Green Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:16 1998
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Posted by Mark Greenwald on January 14, 1998 at 09:58:41:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Washington DC Green Line posted by Dan Lawrence on
    January 13, 1998 at 09:57:02:
    
    WAIT DANThis special version of the Green Line is offered on an
    outbound service only after SOLD OUT events at the new MCI Center
    which is built adjacent to the Gallery Place station (it has a
    connecting entrance). Along with that, the Blue Line also offers a
    special service from Gallery Place to Franconia/ Springfield also
    during SOLD OUT events. Picture if you will you will, trains labeled
    Blue-Franconia/Springfield will travel on the Yellow Line to Pentagon
    where it connects with normal Blue Line service. ALL IN THE NAME OF
    CUSTOMER SERVICE or should I say TO CAPITALIZE ON INCREASED REVENUE.
    
    
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NEXT>8363
PREVIOUS>8332
POSTER>Mark Greenwald 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: DC Area's Metro-rail
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:18 1998
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Posted by Mark Greenwald on January 14, 1998 at 10:01:35:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Mark Greenwald on
    January 14, 1998 at 09:48:47:
    
    Oh, I forgot to mention--If you like talking about the Metrorail
    specifically, the Washington Post has a discussion area in which there
    are several subjects being discussed---Just go into the section that
    is designed for commuters or the metro (I forgot what it's actually
    labeled). If you want more info. e-mail me.
    
    
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NEXT>8339
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 6th Avenue Service ... (going back further)
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:20 1998
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Posted by Ed Sachs on January 14, 1998 at 10:16:01:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
    posted by david vartanoff on January 12, 1998 at 23:58:13:
    
    The 6th Ave. line service remained pretty much the same from 1954 to
    1967. Prior to 1954 (opening of Culver line connection) from about
    1950:
    
    D: 205 St - Hudson Terminal (now World Trade Center), 24 hour service.
    Express N. of 145 St, peak direction, rush hour only.
    Express 59 - 145 St all times.
    Local W 4 St. - Hudson Terminal all times.
    F: 179 St - Church Ave. (via Houston St.), 24 hour service.
    Express Forest Hills - Queens Plaza (all times)
    Express east of Forest Hills in rush hours? (E provided local service)
    BB: 168 St (Broadway) - 23 St/6 Ave. - Local, rush hours only.
    
    Other IND lines of the period (ca. 1950 - 1954):
    A: 207 St - Euclid. Ave., 24 hour service
    Express in Manhattan all times.
    Express in Brooklyn (to Broadway-East New York) in rush hours.
    CC: Bedford Park - Broadway-Lafayette or 2nd Ave/Houston, rush hours.
    E: 179 St - Broadway-Lafayette or 2nd Ave/Houston, non-rush hours.
    Express Forest Hills - Queens Plaza, local in Manhattan.
    179 St - Broadway-East New York, rush hours.
    Express Forest Hills - Queens Plaza, 42nd St. to Chambers, local in
    Brooklyn.
    GG: Forest Hills - Smith/9th Sts., 24 hour service.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 6th Avenue Service ... (going back further) Corrected
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:22 1998
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Posted by Ed Sachs on January 14, 1998 at 10:19:07:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
    posted by david vartanoff on January 12, 1998 at 23:58:13:
    
    Sorry, forgot the AA train last time...
    Ed
    
    The 6th Ave. line service remained pretty much the same from 1954 to
    1967. Prior to 1954 (opening of Culver line connection) from about
    1950:
    
    D: 205 St - Hudson Terminal (now World Trade Center), 24 hour service.
    Express N. of 145 St, peak direction, rush hour only.
    Express 59 - 145 St all times.
    Local W 4 St. - Hudson Terminal all times.
    F: 179 St - Church Ave. (via Houston St.), 24 hour service.
    Express Forest Hills - Queens Plaza (all times)
    Express east of Forest Hills in rush hours? (E provided local service)
    BB: 168 St (Broadway) - 23 St/6 Ave. - Local, rush hours only.
    
    Other IND lines of the period (ca. 1950 - 1954):
    A: 207 St - Euclid. Ave., 24 hour service
    Express in Manhattan all times.
    Express in Brooklyn (to Broadway-East New York) in rush hours.
    AA: 168 St - Hudson Terminal, non-rush hours only
    CC: Bedford Park - Broadway-Lafayette or 2nd Ave/Houston, rush hours.
    E: 179 St - Broadway-Lafayette or 2nd Ave/Houston, non-rush hours.
    Express Forest Hills - Queens Plaza, local in Manhattan.
    179 St - Broadway-East New York, rush hours.
    Express Forest Hills - Queens Plaza, 42nd St. to Chambers, local in
    Brooklyn.
    GG: Forest Hills - Smith/9th Sts., 24 hour service.
    
    
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NEXT>8367
PREVIOUS>8330
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: MetroCard ? from a non-techy
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:24 1998
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on January 14, 1998 at 10:34:17:

   In Reply to: [7]MetroCard ? from a non-techy posted by Lou from
    Middletown on January 14, 1998 at 09:43:59:
    
    The same way an employee pass can not be used to more than once at the
    same station NOW. Employee cards can't be swiped a second time now
    within a certain time period (8 minutes??).
    A lot of the construction crews and regular TA people at Queens Plaza
    are buzzed through the special gate becuse of this (I see it every
    day.
    
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NEXT>8375
PREVIOUS>8317
POSTER>Gerry O'Regan 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:26 1998
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Posted by Gerry O'Regan on January 14, 1998 at 10:57:23:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach
    Line posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 13, 1998 at 03:30:09:
    
    The ramps at 59th St. may date from the streetcar days when the local
    streetcars climbed a ramp to the el and exchanged passengers with the
    el trains. I know of no through el service on Sea Beach after the dual
    contracts era began.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8335
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 6th Avenue Service ... (going back further)
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:28 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 14, 1998 at 12:03:24:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: 6th Avenue Service ... (going back further)
    Corrected posted by Ed Sachs on January 14, 1998 at 10:19:07:
    
    We should explain that when the E went to Bway-Lafayette it went along
    8th Avenue then switch south of W. 4 St to the Houston St tracks.
    
    When the D went to Chambers St. - Hudson Terminal, it went on the 6th
    Avenue tracks and switched to the lower Manhattan tracks south of W. 4
    St.
    
    You can see how it was easily done. If you are on an 8th Uptown local
    you can see F trains running right next to you in the tunnel before it
    dips downstairs at W. 4th street.
    
    However, though it was part of the IND "every branch is connected
    directly to every other branch" plan in the 1930s, people must have
    complained that it's really a pain in the neck to have that during
    less than peak hours. It's faster to have a trunk route be as long as
    possible so people can take any train available for a longer distance.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: DC Area's Metro-rail (Muzak Division)
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:30 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 14, 1998 at 12:06:45:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Mark Greenwald on
    January 14, 1998 at 10:01:35:
    
    They are pumping in Muzak(TM) at the Franconia-Springfield station of
    the Blue Line and plan to put it in at Glenmont (Red) when it opens in
    July. I haven't been there since they put in the music so I don't know
    if it's pleasant or "enough to make one crazy already".
    
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NEXT>8406
PREVIOUS>8226
POSTER>Gerry O'Regan 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Astoria Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:32 1998
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Posted by Gerry O'Regan on January 14, 1998 at 12:09:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Astoria Line posted by Adam on January 12, 1998 at
    18:33:47:
    
    The Astoria Line did not come into being until the era of the dual
    contracts, when it and the Corona (Flushing) line were constructed to
    serve the northern part of Queens. These were perhaps the most
    cooperative portion of the project since both the IRT and BMT would
    share the routes and operate them jointly. Unfortunately, even though
    both systems operated their own cars on the lines, the BMT lacked a
    connection into Manhattan until the 60th St. Tunnel was completed.
    
    Queensborough Plaza Station was built with eight tracks on two levels,
    served by four island platforms. The BMT operated the northern half of
    the station and the IRT ran the southern end. The southernmost pair of
    tracks connected to the Steinway Tunnel, while the next set north
    connected to the Second Av. El. Both of these could serve either line
    in Queens via scissors crossovers east of the platforms on either
    level. The mortherly pair of tracks curved to the Astoria Line and the
    southerly pair connected to the Corona Line.
    
    The BMT originally operated to tail tracks west of the station,
    maintaining the upper level east, lower level west configuration along
    with Astoria north/Corona South. This was altered when the 60th St.
    tunnel was opened and connected to the northerly pair of tracks, which
    then connected to a easterly tail track for reversing direction. The
    BMT tracks descended to a lower level east of the station for a flying
    junction with the IRT.
    
    When the Second Av. el was closed in 1942, the north half of the IRT
    station fell into disuse. About 1950? it was decided to extend the BMT
    Subway teains to Astoria and discontinue the joint operation. A new
    connection was provided from the 60th St. Tunnel to the former 2nd Av.
    portion of the IRT station, and the platforms were cut back there and
    along the Astoria Line. The entire north half of Queensboro Plaza
    Station was abandoned, along with most of the flying junction. Disused
    trackways can be seen descending to the former lower level along both
    existing lines, but the active trackways are those of the original
    IRT. One set of crossovers remains on the upper level as the Flushing
    Line's only connection to the rest of the system.
    
    Gerry
    
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NEXT>8343
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>aaron 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>South Ferry inner loop
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:34 1998
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Posted by aaron on January 14, 1998 at 12:44:02:

   Coming Manhattan bound on the 4 this a.m., I noticed the inner loop
    blocked for track work. How are 5 trains that terminate at Bowling
    Green
    turned around?
    
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NEXT>8354
PREVIOUS>8342
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: South Ferry inner loop
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:36 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 14, 1998 at 13:53:47:

   In Reply to: [7]South Ferry inner loop posted by aaron on January 14,
    1998 at 12:44:02:
    
    If you were there during rush hour, maybe it was leftover overnight
    work that was going to be taken up by 9:30 AM.
    
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NEXT>8347
PREVIOUS>8291
POSTER>Bill Mosteller 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Automated trains
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:40 1998
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Posted by Bill Mosteller on January 14, 1998 at 14:08:27:

   In Reply to: [8]Automated trains posted by Rob Stougher on January 13,
    1998 at 13:39:01:
    
    I live in Northern Virginia and ride our Metro occasionally, and I've
    not seen such lax behavior on the part of an operator. As I understand
    it, there is a dwell time factored into the control system. I learned
    this from an episode (related second hand) in which a train escaped
    its operator. Once it departed the station, leaving the operator
    behind, it stopped at the rest of the stations on the run, waited the
    dwell time (a minute or so?), noticed that the doors were closed
    (since the absent operator had not opened them), and proceeded on. I'm
    glad I wasn't on the train.
    
    Double doors sound nice, but are pretty difficult. BART has door stop
    pads painted on the platforms, and claims to hit within a foot of
    them. The time I last rode (May of last year) the error appeared to be
    more like +/- 3 feet. One transit official I know remarks that with
    current technology they're happy when a train as long as the platform
    stops fully on the platform! Hitting door marks or the equivalent is
    probably too hard, apparently.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Bill Mosteller 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: DC Area's Metro-rail - Metro Stores
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:44 1998
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Posted by Bill Mosteller on January 14, 1998 at 14:19:26:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Chris Matheson on
    January 12, 1998 at 18:07:27:
    
    At one point, Metro had a retail outlet at Ballston Mall.
    Additionally, at Metro Center, they have an outlet where they sell
    both fare cards and souvenirs.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Bill Mosteller 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Why Automated Train Operation
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:46 1998
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Posted by Bill Mosteller on January 14, 1998 at 14:26:19:

   In Reply to: [8]DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Chris Matheson on
    January 12, 1998 at 16:05:32:
    
    For some while, I had thought that automated train operation for
    subway cars was technology for technology's sake. J. William Vigrass'
    excellent book on PATCO persuaded me otherwise.
    During rush hours, a system would like to get the maximum out of their
    equipment. That means that trains should leave a station at the
    maximum safe acceleration, proceed at top speed to the next station,
    braking to a stop at the last possible safe moment. Some operators can
    do this, others buy a little insurance by lagging a bit; starting more
    slowly, decelerating sooner than the minimum. The machine always
    performs optimally. The effect is to create a whole extra train on
    PATCO, simply by making all trains drive as if an excellent operator
    were in control.
    
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NEXT>8349
PREVIOUS>8344
POSTER>Rob Stougher 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Automated trains
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:49 1998
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Posted by Rob Stougher on January 14, 1998 at 14:37:00:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Automated trains posted by Bill Mosteller on
    January 14, 1998 at 14:08:27:
    
    The TrAAm system works like this:
    
    (Granted it is a light rail-type system)
    
    Velocity is decreased to about 5 MPH before approaching a platform,
    and the train slowly comes to a stop, almost inching its way to the
    partitions. The platform doors are slightly wider than the trAAm
    doors, to take into account for small errors. When I have had the
    privilege to have to transfer at DFW, I have used this system
    frequently, and it always has stopped dead center in the opening.
    Higher-speed systems would probabaly have more of a problem, though.
    
    It would need to be in a system under construction, I think: take for
    example retro-fitting the Metro-Rail - It would be a shame to close in
    the beautiful barrel-vaulted stations.
    
    
    
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NEXT>8372
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Avi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Metro-card & E-Z Pass
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:53 1998
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Posted by Avi on January 14, 1998 at 14:46:11:

   You know what would be a marriage in heaven: Metrocard and E-Z pass
    share the same account.
    
    For those of you who don't know, E-Z Pass is an electronic toll
    collection system developed by the New York State Thruway Authority
    for regualr system fares and bridge tolls. It can be used at MTA
    bridges and tunnels as well. Soon, (but not soon enough) it is planned
    to be extended to the PA, NJ, and MA Turnpikes, as well as PATCO and
    the AC Expressway, Philadelphia Bridges etc. It promises to make all
    forms of vehicular transportation (when necessary) easier.
    
    It would be easier to install Metro Card on the Thruway -(Swipe Unit
    in a designated lane) but harder for E-Z Pass in the Subway system,
    but it would be neat.
    
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NEXT>8391
PREVIOUS>8347
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Automated trains
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:56 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 14, 1998 at 15:10:09:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Automated trains posted by Bill Mosteller on
    January 14, 1998 at 14:08:27:
    
    > Double doors sound nice, but are pretty difficult
    
    The Newark Airport monorail has platform doors. The one time I've
    ridden the mono it seems to work okay. Singapore has them on the
    subway portions of its metro lines. The Jubilee Line Extension in
    London (see [9]http://www.jle.lul.co.uk) will have them as well. I'm
    not sure if they plan to refit the existing portion of the line with
    them though.
    
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NEXT>8351
PREVIOUS>7934
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Grand Central
DATE>Jan 23 09:45:58 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 14, 1998 at 16:53:34:

   How many levels are there in Grand Central Terminal?
    I know that there are teo track levels. How about excluding those?
    Any levels under those? If anyone knows, please post it.
    
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NEXT>8407
PREVIOUS>8350
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Grand Central
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:00 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 14, 1998 at 18:20:13:

   In Reply to: [8]Grand Central posted by Steve on January 14, 1998 at
    16:53:34:
    
    There are two. Just two. With a turnaround on either the upper or
    lower level (both???). And at least at one point a spur/platform
    existed for the waldorf astoria. Not much though, and not an
    "abandoned tunnel"
    Seriously, what you see in GCT today is all that was ever there. There
    really isn't anything hidden, at least nothing I'm aware of that's
    groundbreaking...
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8243
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd.
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:03 1998
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Posted by Eric B on January 14, 1998 at 19:24:07:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Connection From 60th Street Tunnel To Queens Blvd.
    posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 12, 1998 at 11:40:20:
    
    No, some R-1's ran on the R in 1955, when some R-16's were sent to the
    IND to be used on the new Rockaway line. Also, around this time, some
    R-10s ran on the Eastern div.
    
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NEXT>8358
PREVIOUS>8241
POSTER>Josh Caesar 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: What Station
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:05 1998
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Posted by Josh Caesar on January 14, 1998 at 19:46:40:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: What Station posted by Blade-Runner on January 12,
    1998 at 22:53:34:
    
    I am not sure what the station is, but maybe someone else on Subtalk
    would know.
    
    Josh Caesar
    [9][LINK]
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8343
POSTER>Mike B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: South Ferry inner loop
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:08 1998
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Posted by Mike B on January 14, 1998 at 20:23:46:

   In Reply to: [8]South Ferry inner loop posted by aaron on January 14,
    1998 at 12:44:02:
    
    I think I read that #5 trains were being extended to Atlantic Avenue
    and turning there while the construction was going on.
    
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NEXT>8356
PREVIOUS>8322
POSTER>Mellow One 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!!
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:10 1998
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Posted by Mellow One on January 14, 1998 at 20:40:17:

   In Reply to: [8]New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!! posted by Philip
    Nasadowski on January 14, 1998 at 01:02:24:
    
    No, New Haven was and is the end of the AC electric overhead.
    However, there were other early DC electifications in Connecticut,
    but well away from New Haven all of which were de-electrified in the
    30's.
    Middleton's book, When The Steam Railroads Electirfied identifies
    those lines. The NYNH&H also controlled the Connecticut Co. wich
    supplied the electricity and most of the local and interurban transit
    in the state.
    There are several publications dealing with the Connecticut Co and
    Connecticut Traction History. However, a paper on the NYNH&H DC
    electrifications would be welcome if the papers, articles or regional
    publications have not already covered the subject.
    I would like to see some myself.
    I used to travel into Hartford and around Hazardville
    and crossed several ROWs that were part of that history.
    I would endeavor to do it myself,
    except I am well away from the area now.
    
    The Waterbury branch was electrified (AC) at one time.
    I do not know the exact date of the de-electrification, in the 70's.
    
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NEXT>8364
PREVIOUS>8355
POSTER>faxman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!!
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:13 1998
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Posted by faxman on January 14, 1998 at 20:49:22:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!! posted by
    Mellow One on January 14, 1998 at 20:40:17:
    
    i think you are seeing the old cedar hill frieght yard. they ran
    electics in the bronx and queens via hell gates
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8312
POSTER>faxman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Elizabeth Light Rail
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:15 1998
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Posted by faxman on January 14, 1998 at 21:00:59:

   In Reply to: [7]Elizabeth Light Rail posted by Blaise Dupuy on January
    11, 1998 at 23:45:24:
    
    that bridge goes si ny not bayonne nj. that line line runs from
    canford to si (the sirt line). yes the county did buy along with the
    rahway valley line to union. the mall is near the old cnj e-port yard
    i think
    
    
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NEXT>8359
PREVIOUS>8353
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: What Station
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:20 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 14, 1998 at 21:02:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: What Station posted by Josh Caesar on January 14,
    1998 at 19:46:40:
    
    I think someone else already posted the answer, but that's Cortelyou
    Road. Standing at the south end of the southbound platform facing
    north. The platform in the picture is a temporary one which was built
    at local stations during the reconstruction of the Brighton local
    tracks a few years ago (1993?)
    
    -Dave
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8358
POSTER>David Pirmann 
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SUBJECT>Re: What Station
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:24 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 14, 1998 at 21:04:18:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: What Station posted by Josh Caesar on January 14,
    1998 at 19:46:40:
    
    By the way, here's a similar view taken from pretty much the same
    location in April 1997 by myself. I'm at the extreme end of the
    southbound platform but the zoom lens makes it look like I'm closer to
    the station house (which has had some renovation in the past couple
    years, obviously. Some new paint and a new picture window over the
    tracks).
    
    [9][LINK]
    
    -Dave
    
    
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NEXT>8374
PREVIOUS>8325
POSTER>a.aprdi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Metrocard fraud
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:29 1998
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Posted by a.aprdi on January 14, 1998 at 21:04:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Metrocard fraud posted by Gary on January 14, 1998
    at 09:18:02:
    
    to my knowledge supervision ( sta sup level 1 & 2 sta mgr. supt and
    gen supt acso and cso) have ta400 ta475 and 069 keys. as far as
    cleaners clerks and other rank and file employees these keys are not
    issued.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>I'm looking for a copy of the 1997/98 NYCT bus electronic desination
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:33 1998
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   If anyone out there has a copy of the 1997/98 NYCT bus electronic
    desination readings for all NYCT bus routes, please post it.
    
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NEXT>8370
PREVIOUS>8333
POSTER>Mike K 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Washington DC Green Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:36 1998
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Posted by Mike K on January 14, 1998 at 22:49:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Washington DC Green Line posted by Dan Lawrence on
    January 13, 1998 at 09:57:02:
    
    Actually, some of my DC-area friends aren't that happy about this
    service, known as the "Green Line Shortcut." The problem is holding
    time while waiting for the center track between the Green and Red
    Lines to open up. It can actually slow the trip down, even though it
    saves the transfer.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8334
POSTER>Mike K 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: DC Area's Metro-rail
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:38 1998
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Posted by Mike K on January 14, 1998 at 22:58:16:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: DC Area's Metro-rail posted by Philip Nasadowski
    on January 12, 1998 at 23:26:25:
    
    On PATCO, the only time the operator actually "drives" the train is on
    the rush hour expresses and short run trains. If he/she did not do
    that, the train would still actually stop at each station. The manual
    operation allows the operator to override the system and skip stops.
    
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NEXT>8366
PREVIOUS>8356
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!!
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:40 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 14, 1998 at 23:18:03:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!! posted by
    Mellow One on January 14, 1998 at 20:40:17:
    
    Metro-North's Waterbury branch has never been electrified. You're
    probably thinking of the Danbury line, which I believe had been
    electrified until relatively recently.
    
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NEXT>8371
PREVIOUS>8327
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Septa Trolley Routes
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:42 1998
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Posted by Joe M on January 14, 1998 at 23:20:09:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Septa Trolley Routes posted by Dan Lawrence on
    January 14, 1998 at 09:33:20:
    
    
    Any chance they will rehab and reactivate any of the stored PCC's
    anytime soon?
    
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NEXT>8376
PREVIOUS>8364
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!!
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:44 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 14, 1998 at 23:23:47:

   In Reply to: [8]New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!! posted by Philip
    Nasadowski on January 14, 1998 at 01:02:24:
    
    That abandoned extension just past the Bridgeport station originally
    ran up towards Danbury, connecting at some point with the (still
    extant) freight line that ran from the Poughkeepsie Bridge to a
    junction with the Waterbury branch in Derby. I don't know just when
    the line from Bridgeport was abandoned, but it clearly was quite some
    time ago. The lower part of it, for just a short distance off the New
    Haven main line, was used as an industrial freight spur for some time
    thereafter, though even that's been abandoned for 10 years or more.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8337
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: MetroCard ? from a non-techy
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:46 1998
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Posted by Joe M on January 14, 1998 at 23:27:32:

   In Reply to: [7]MetroCard ? from a non-techy posted by Lou from
    Middletown on January 14, 1998 at 09:43:59:
    
    "Day Tripper" may be a good name for them.
    
    
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NEXT>8381
PREVIOUS>8314
POSTER>Mike K 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:48 1998
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Posted by Mike K on January 14, 1998 at 23:29:58:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line posted by
    Todd Glickman on January 13, 1998 at 16:59:29:
    
    Only a broadcaster would think of that one...
    
    Mike (himself a broadcaster)
    
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NEXT>8416
PREVIOUS>8304
POSTER>Mike K 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:50 1998
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Posted by Mike K on January 14, 1998 at 23:31:04:

   In Reply to: [8]Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by
    Christopher Rivera on January 13, 1998 at 09:24:39:
    
    What about the F line between 179th Street and Coney Island?
    
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NEXT>8373
PREVIOUS>8362
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Washington DC Green Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:52 1998
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Posted by Joe M on January 14, 1998 at 23:43:20:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Washington DC Green Line posted by Mark Greenwald
    on January 14, 1998 at 09:58:41:
    
    Full trains nice Idea. I hope they have enough trains to serve the
    need.
    
    I femember waiting at Park St. in Boston one night trying to figure
    out why the trains were too full to get on. I thought at first that
    there must have been a problem during rush hour. Once I did get on a
    train it was clear that I was in the middle of many spirited Bo-Sox
    fans going to the game.
    
    It was a fun ride.
    
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NEXT>8412
PREVIOUS>8365
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Septa Trolley Routes
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:54 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 15, 1998 at 00:27:50:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Septa Trolley Routes posted by Joe M on January
    14, 1998 at 23:20:09:
    
    Probably not. The PCC's are pushing 50+ years old and unless SEPTA is
    willing to do what SF MUNI did, the only PCC's will be on fantrips and
    the Welcome line (when it runs).
    
    Let's face it. As much as we don't admit it, PCC's are now Historic
    Equipment. Fact: there are more PCC's in musuems than there are in
    revenue service today.
    
    Trivia question: Who has the only 46 foot, standard Pullman air car in
    existance?
    
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NEXT>8385
PREVIOUS>8348
POSTER>Droo 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:56 1998
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Posted by Droo on January 15, 1998 at 00:33:48:

   In Reply to: [7]Metro-card & E-Z Pass posted by Avi on January 14,
    1998 at 14:46:11:
    
    From the rumor mill when E-ZPass was first being installed by the TBTA
    (or MTA Bridges & Tunnels, or whatever it is now)they were saying that
    someday in the future, they would have it so you won't have to stop or
    slow down the vehicle when using E-ZPass... if this is the plan
    (probably for the not-so-near future) then having a Metrocard-type
    swipe system would be useless.
    Maybe instead of the debit-card Metrocard, and credit-card-type
    Metrocard could be used? I suppose the security issues would be
    enormous, though.
    
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NEXT>8383
PREVIOUS>8370
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Washington DC Green Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:46:58 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 15, 1998 at 00:40:13:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Washington DC Green Line posted by Mark Greenwald
    on January 14, 1998 at 09:58:41:
    
    See, what did I say? Service to attract (and serve) the passenger. The
    increased revenue comes from the service. Remember this is a radical
    idea. Too many transit managers believe that the vehicle is the most
    important thing in transit service.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8360
POSTER>Subman23 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Metrocard fraud
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:01 1998
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Posted by Subman23 on January 15, 1998 at 02:24:33:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Metrocard fraud posted by a.aprdi on January 14,
    1998 at 21:04:30:
    
    In addition to the below mentioned Division of Stations employees,
    Transit Bureau police officers have been issued 069 keys. Also, these
    cops and NYCTA supervisory employee's have keys to open service gates.
    
    Some vandals have obtained all above mentioned keys. Unfortunately,
    different locks can not be fitted on each service gate so that
    criminals can not have free access to the system and hand collect at
    closed entrances.
    Uniform locks are needed for emergency situations where T.A. or police
    personnel need rapid access at these entrances.
    
    Transit Bureau managers need to post plain clothed cops at these areas
    freequently visited by hand collectors. These hand collectors usually
    work in teams and flee before uniform officers arrive on the scene.
    
    
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NEXT>8393
PREVIOUS>8338
POSTER>Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:05 1998
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Posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 15, 1998 at 03:53:52:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach
    Line posted by Gerry O'Regan on January 14, 1998 at 10:57:23:
    
    Oops - we're all intertangled here -
    
    My last msg was about the two sets of ramps in the 36th St. Culver
    cut.
    
    Others have asked about the 65th St. cut and the Bay Ridge branch of
    the
    LIRR/NHRR/PC.
    
    Re: the 36th St. cut - all are welcome to comment on what they know
    about
    the western ramps that even in early opening year photos are empty -
    reinforcing much published diagrams that show the 5th Av El going thru
    the yard and comind into the cut via the easternmost yard track ramps
    that are in use to this very day...
    
    Re: the 65th St. cut: besides the freight/car floats/yard that was/is
    in use there for the past century, the LIRR Bay Ridge Line had a a Bay
    Ridge passenger station there which connected with ferry service, as
    well. (BTW, there is/was a fast ferry service operating there
    recently).
    
    The Sea Beach Railroad also terminated at the "65th St. Ferry". Does
    anyone know how the tracks were layed-out and whether there were
    separate tracks/terminals when/if both passenger services operated
    concurrently?
    
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NEXT>8379
PREVIOUS>8366
POSTER>Dave 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!!
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:08 1998
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Posted by Dave on January 15, 1998 at 07:48:46:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!! posted by
    Peter Rosa on January 14, 1998 at 23:18:03:
    
    The Danbury branch was electrified until early 1961 when the wire was
    de-energized. The wire came down in 1965.
    
    There was a branch that ran from just west of Bridgeport to Danbury?
    Are you sure? There was a branch east of Danbury that ran from Devon
    up to Derby, then west to Maybrook. The Maybrook lines was the NH's
    main freight branch, connecting with the Erie, L&NE, L&HR, NYC and the
    NYO&W.
    
    For an excellent book on the history of the Danbury branch, check out
    "In the Shore Line's Shadow" by L. Peter Cornwall.
    
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NEXT>8397
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Layup Tracks
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:10 1998
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Posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 15, 1998 at 07:50:34:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach
    Line posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 15, 1998 at 03:53:52:
    
    I'd like to put together a list of layup tracks - past and present.
    
    The operant definition being tracks that are/have been used for laying
    up trains between runs or overnight. Please be as exact as possible.
    
    I'll start:
    
    Brighton Line - after station towards Coney, I believe. Additional
    info?
    Fulton El - Yard lead east of Rockaway Ave station (north-most
    westbound
    track)
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>8413
PREVIOUS>4775
POSTER>Larry 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Manhattan Bridge
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:14 1998
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Posted by Larry on January 15, 1998 at 08:50:33:

   Let's review my own experience on this issue.
    
    I E-mailed the Mayor, whose staff E-mailed back that subway
    infrastructure is the MTA's responsibility, not the city's. The city's
    Department of Transportation has been fixing the bridge ($500 million
    so far after a bad decision not to replace it), and released a report
    stating that the bridge cannot carry the trains in the long run.
    Trucks may also have to go.
    
    The MTA, for its part, released an East River Crossing study which
    said the bridge could, and should, be fixed -- and why is it taking
    the city so long? TA staff said the threat to existing service is a
    potential disaster, but the city is responsible. My state
    representative, a Democrat, blames the Republican Governor. The former
    Democratic Governor, however, spent the state dry and deep into debt
    on hospitals, an important part of his base, while leaving the states
    roads, bridges, and transit systems to rot.
    
    Meanwhile, the MTA plans to connect the Long Island Railroad to Grand
    Central, diverting whatever federal money the region as a whole
    receives. The Port Authority, MTA, and New Jersey Transit recently
    released a proposal for another tunnel to give New Jersey commuters
    improved access to Manhattan. The Port Authority cannot afford, it
    says, to connect the subway to the airports because it needs the
    profits from New York City's airports to fund the PATH system.
    
    Thirty years ago, the Northeast paid in big time federal taxes to
    build interstates all over the U.S. Now that infrastructure in the
    Northeast, built earlier to a lower standard with local money, needs
    to be replaced, and the Northeast, is the least prosperous part of the
    country, it needs to be paid back. Unfair, says the rest of the
    country, which demands to cut ISTEA money for the Northeast, and
    transit money, which is concentrated in the Northeast, in general. And
    the Northeastern states continue to pay billions more in federal taxes
    than they receive in federal spending, and Northeastern residents
    continue to follow their tax dollars elsehwhere.
    
    Its all pretty outrageous. But Brooklyn's representatives are
    completely focused on the needs of their paymasters in the health care
    industry, and protecting a Medicaid program whose cost per recipient
    is many times that of any other state. That's the deal. The idea is to
    start a company (oops, non-profit) that gets Medicaid money, earn
    enough to move to the suburbs, put the business in Manhattan, commute
    in on the Long Island Railroad or New Jersey Transit, and have the
    Brooklyn recipients take what's left of the subway to you.
    
    The choice isn't between spending on new infrastructure and existing
    infrastructure. The choice is between spending on public works and
    spending on health care, and spending the taxes paid by city residents
    in the city vs. spending it elsewhere. NYC is both the poor house and
    the cash cow of the state and nation -- at the same time! How long can
    we keep it up?
    
    
    
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NEXT>8529
PREVIOUS>8376
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!!
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:16 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 15, 1998 at 09:18:32:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!! posted by Dave
    on January 15, 1998 at 07:48:46:
    
    I am not certain if the branch line in question (from Bridgeport)
    actually joined with the Maybrook line; it might have dead-ended north
    of Bridgeport. But it was more than just an industrial spur, and ran
    for some distance north of Bridgeport.
    
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NEXT>8497
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lou from Middletown 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The "Line by Line" Posts:Flushing
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:18 1998
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Posted by Lou from Middletown on January 15, 1998 at 09:25:49:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: The "Line by Line" Posts posted by Charles Fiori
    on January 13, 1998 at 12:00:00:
    
    One thing that needs to be cleared up about the Flushing Line is:
    Exactly when did Express service start?? Some references state express
    service started when the line first opened, while others make a big
    deal about "the express service starting in conjunction withe 1939
    World's Fair? Just being picky before anyone starts anything!!
    
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NEXT>8387
PREVIOUS>8368
POSTER>Lou from Midletown 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:22 1998
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Posted by Lou from Midletown on January 15, 1998 at 09:34:46:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line posted by
    Carl M. Rabbin on January 13, 1998 at 16:05:22:
    
    Or how about Far Rockaway all the way up to 205th St on the Concourse
    Line- that has to farther than 207th on the A...or Far Rockaway up to
    W 4th switch to 6th Ave local tracks run local into Queens, then on
    the Steinway leg and run local using Archer Ave all the way to Jamaica
    Center?? If you run this local on Fulton, this would have the
    potential of being a 2 1/2 hour ride!! (Thats one conductor who would
    definitely need a crib sheet, not to mention a change of clothes!)
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Dan Schwartz 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 6th Avenue Service - an apology
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:25 1998
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Posted by Dan Schwartz on January 15, 1998 at 09:56:11:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: 6th Avenue Service before Chrystie Street Opened
    posted by david vartanoff on January 13, 1998 at 18:06:58:
    
    After a bout of head-scratching and memory-jogging, I have come to the
    conclusion that you are right -- the F DID terminate at 34th St.-6th
    Av. on weekends.
    
    It is funny how memories can get distorted. I remembered that the F
    usually terminatd at B'way-Lafayette, and I remembered being there the
    last night before Chrystie St. opened, and somehow I combined the two
    in my mind, to the point where I was SURE of something that, in fact,
    just wasn't so.
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>8384
PREVIOUS>8373
POSTER>Mark Greenwald 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Washington DC Green Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:28 1998
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Posted by Mark Greenwald on January 15, 1998 at 10:03:18:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Washington DC Green Line posted by Dan Lawrence on
    January 15, 1998 at 00:40:13:
    
    Dan----I still stand by my prediction that eventually the Yellow &
    Blue Lines will reverse terminus' (Huntington vs. Franconia/
    Springfield) If you remember, the Yellow Line was originally supposed
    to go to Franconia while the Blue to Huntington--The reason it didn't
    was simple---when the Line opened south of Nat'l Airport to
    Huntington, it took less cars to add to the Yellow and extend it
    southward and leave the Blue terminating at Nat'l Airport--At the
    time, the Yellow Line only operated to Gallery Place. The reason I
    stand by this prediction is simple, Increased customer service, which
    we are currently seeing, this would give downtown customers a more
    direct route to the huge parking lot that is Franconia/ Springfield
    (and Northern Va for that matter) without making a transfer.
    
    
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NEXT>8410
PREVIOUS>8383
POSTER>Mark Greenwald 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Washington DC Green Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:32 1998
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Posted by Mark Greenwald on January 15, 1998 at 10:07:27:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Washington DC Green Line posted by Carl M. Rabbin
    on January 12, 1998 at 13:50:43:
    
    The reason this middle segment wasn't built was for essentially two
    reasons---1) lack of money and more importantly 2) The residents kept
    fighting over where the route should run between Columbia Hts. & Ft.
    Totten--some said it should go up New Hampshire--others wanted Kansas
    Ave.--This increased bickering wasn't fair to the residents of P.G.
    County so WMATA opted to go ahead and build it since all the planning
    work had been completed.
    
    
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NEXT>8386
PREVIOUS>8372
POSTER>John Stewart 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:37 1998
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Posted by John Stewart on January 15, 1998 at 10:37:32:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass posted by Droo on January
    15, 1998 at 00:33:48:
    
    Yes, I understand that the technology you describe was being
    considered. I believe it would work only with a credit card. It's
    already in use at some gas stations (Mobil, for instance). This
    version reads a bar code mounted on your car window. I'm not sure if
    it reads a code that directly specifies your credit card or if it
    reads a code that is encrypted in some sort of data base that records
    which card you previously specified to the company that you want them
    to use whenever you are charged. However, I do believe that the car
    has to be moving under "x" number of mph in order to activate the
    reading of the bar code.
    
    I've wondered what happens if you drive up to one island in the
    station and find that the pump is empty (after your bar code on your
    window has been read) and then drive to a second pump. I'm sure you'd
    get charged twice and have to fight Mastercharge for two years before
    the situation was straightened out!
    
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NEXT>8388
PREVIOUS>8385
POSTER>John B. Bredin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:39 1998
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Posted by John B. Bredin on January 15, 1998 at 11:12:25:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass posted by John Stewart on
    January 15, 1998 at 10:37:32:
    
    The "Mobilpass" is not attached to the automobile. It is a small wand
    about the size of a pen that you attach to your keychain. To activate
    the pump, you wave the wand over a sensor, which in stations equipped
    for Mobilpass is the Pegasus logo.
    
    As to being charged for waving at two pumps, if you didn't buy gas at
    the first one, because the pump is empty, what would you be charged
    for? (Now, if you activate the pump, go away to another pump, the pump
    is not empty, and someone quickly comes and uses the pump, that
    **might** be a different story.)
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8381
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:41 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 15, 1998 at 11:13:55:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line posted by
    Lou from Midletown on January 15, 1998 at 09:34:46:
    
    It's a little bizzarre, but how about from 205th Street, down Grand
    Concourse, 8th Avenue, 6th Avenue, across the Manhattan Bridge, down
    4th Avenue to the Sea Beach line to Coney Island, then back up the
    Brighton line, through the Montague Street tunnel, up Broadway, then
    through the 60th Street tunnel, and then local all the way to 179th
    Street Jamaica? Kind of a redundant, useless extension of the defunct
    NX. I think this line would cross its own path a couple of times, too!
    
    
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NEXT>8389
PREVIOUS>8386
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:43 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 15, 1998 at 11:16:43:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass posted by John B. Bredin on
    January 15, 1998 at 11:12:25:
    
    Is the Mobil wand a radio re-transmitter?
    
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NEXT>8392
PREVIOUS>8388
POSTER>Avi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:45 1998
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Posted by Avi on January 15, 1998 at 12:55:31:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass posted by Timothy Speer on
    January 15, 1998 at 11:16:43:
    
    Speedpass is Mobils version of E-Z Pass. It comes in two flavors:
    
    --keychain for portable reasons
    --rear window mount.
    
    The system is proximity activated - there are no barcodes on the
    product visible. (At least on mine)
    
    E-Z Pass, which I also have, can be read by the transmitter at any
    speed. Any lane can actually except the transaction, as long it is
    equipped.
    
    The technology already exists, for example, my son gets into his dorm
    using a credit/debit size card with a circuit wafer embedded into it.
    This is what got me thinking on the prospect of codesharing between
    E-Z Pass and MetroCard. I am from upstate, and when I have a Metrocard
    just for the ease of a token-less trip the two or three times a
    quarter I am there.
    
    
    
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NEXT>8399
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:47 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 15, 1998 at 12:57:28:

   I have the privilege of doing the section on the 4 Woodlawn to Utica
    Train.
    If anyone has any interesting trivia, photos, news items, etc. please
    e-mauil to me at[8] subway-buff@mindspring.com/a>.
    
    Thanks for your help !!
    
    
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NEXT>8394
PREVIOUS>8349
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Automated trains
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:49 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 15, 1998 at 13:29:39:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Automated trains posted by Bill Mosteller on
    January 14, 1998 at 14:08:27:
    
    All underground stations in Singapore have double doors, and the
    outside ones are of glass, with metal frames. All trains top, tops,
    1/2 foot off the center of the doors. All underground stations are
    also climate controlled, which is a necessity because the outside
    humidity is always at 500000% because of Singapore's location on the
    equator.
    
    So it's possible and it works well, I might add. I had the opportunity
    to visit Singapore about 2 years ago. [9]Here's an overview of the
    system and [10]here are some pictures.
    
    --Mark
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8403
PREVIOUS>8389
POSTER>John Stewart 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:51 1998
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Posted by John Stewart on January 15, 1998 at 13:39:17:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass posted by John B. Bredin on
    January 15, 1998 at 11:12:25:
    
    I did not realize that there was also a version that resembled a
    "small wand," designed to be attached to a keychain. The version that
    I have read about in the papers is designed to be mounted on the car
    window. And thank you for pointing out the error of my overzealous
    assumption about being charged twice.
    
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NEXT>8395
PREVIOUS>8375
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:53 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 15, 1998 at 13:51:12:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach
    Line posted by Dan Schwartz on January 14, 1998 at 00:17:12:
    
    I don't know too much about the LIRR Bay Ridge Line and don'r recall
    seeing anything in my sources regarding why the shared (or the
    appearance of the shared) ROW. But I'll check again.
    
    Also, the LIRR Bay Ridge Line has a good deal of history in its own
    right (none of which I am too familiar with, I'm afraid).
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8429
PREVIOUS>8391
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Automated trains
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:55 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 15, 1998 at 13:53:10:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Automated trains posted by Rob Stougher on January
    14, 1998 at 14:37:00:
    
    This particular aspect of automated transit (Double layer of doors)
    really amounts to a horizontal elevator system. As such, elevator
    technology long ago developed sensor systems that can insure lining up
    within 1/4 inch. this kind of accuracy is probably unnecessary for
    side to side alignment, but it is clearly do-able.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8393
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:57 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 15, 1998 at 13:53:32:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York City Subway Line By Line: The Sea Beach
    Line posted by Charles Fiori on January 13, 1998 at 16:20:20:
    
    Wow - I didn't think that was done on the Sea Beach; I doubt the
    condition of the tracks would support it now.
    
    However, it does count and I'll modify my text to include the rare
    event of a rerouting due to track work.
    
    I do know, and have seen, N trains using the West End Express tracks
    during track work. When there's track work, a usual pattern is N
    trains run in one direction on the Sea Beach and then in the other
    direction, running express, on the West End.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8398
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line +E,J Question
DATE>Jan 23 09:47:59 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 15, 1998 at 14:00:15:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line posted by
    Lou from Midletown on January 15, 1998 at 09:34:46:
    
    I think you missed my idea here, an idea, though, that Todd Glickman
    punctuated really well with his Bridge/Tunnel destination sign.
    
    My humorous potential line had the same exact northern and southern
    terminal (Jamaica Center), it was not meant to be merely a long line.
    It also is the only place you can have a line that loops upon itself,
    except for the Sea Beach-to-Brighton looping described in a nearby
    post below this one somewhere.
    
    BTW, someone implied in a post that the upper and lower tracks at
    Sutphin Blvd leading to Jamaica Center are never actually connected. I
    have never been out there since the new sections were built. Could
    someone describe what the stations and track configurations look like?
    Thanks in advance.
    
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NEXT>8424
PREVIOUS>8377
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Layup Tracks
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:01 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 15, 1998 at 14:01:50:

   In Reply to: [8]Layup Tracks posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January
    15, 1998 at 07:50:34:
    
    Getting some of the dust of my (cough cough) long range memory ...
    
    The Brighton Line: The northbound (Manhattan-bound) express tracks
    were used to lay up trains on weekends and sometimes during midday
    hours between Oceanview Ave (just north of the current interlockings
    on the Brighton El after leaving Brighton Beach) to Sheepshead Bay,
    and then from Avenue Y to Ave R. (This is no longer bring done). I
    remember, as a kid, being disappointed when D trains, claiming to be
    an express from Brighton Beach, ran local to Kings Highway before
    switching to the express tracks. Occasionally, a train would layup in
    Brighton Beach, using one of the two station tracks, and trains would
    always have to wait for the single open track to clear. (This is also
    not being done anymore.) Also, there's an "El Yard" between Ocean
    Parkway & Brighton Beach, where trains are stored. They're even stored
    on the through-express tracks.
    
    The West End Line: The center track was always full of laid-up trains
    starting from Bay 50th and running the length of the line to 9th
    Avenue. I don't think this is being done anymore.
    
    --Mark
    
    I don't recall any trains lad up on Culver or Sea Beach.
    
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NEXT>8401
PREVIOUS>8396
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line +E,J Question
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:03 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 15, 1998 at 14:41:46:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line +E,J
    Question posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 15, 1998 at 14:00:15:
    
    At Sutphin Boulevard (and presumably Jamaica Center, though I haven't
    been there), the E train is on the upper level and the J directly
    below. There are no track connections.
    
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NEXT>8400
PREVIOUS>8390
POSTER>Lefty 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:04 1998
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Posted by Lefty on January 15, 1998 at 16:08:46:

   In Reply to: [8]NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by subway-buff
    on January 15, 1998 at 12:57:28:
    
    you might wanna do something about the 4 yard under the racey towers
    in the bronx.. just north of the D train's Jerome yard.. its under 2
    huge buildings. are there any other yards like this in the city?
    
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NEXT>8402
PREVIOUS>8399
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:06 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 15, 1998 at 16:31:17:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by Lefty on
    January 15, 1998 at 16:08:46:
    
    Pitkin Yard is underneath high-rises on the Bklyn/Queens line. 148th
    Street Yard is under high-rises at 148th-Lenox. I think that is it.
    One aside--240th St. Yard (my alma mater) is actually itself elevated.
    Rather than ramping down from the road tracks into the yard, the shop
    and storage tracks are at the same level as the elevated.
    
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NEXT>8418
PREVIOUS>8398
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line +E,J Question
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:08 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 15, 1998 at 16:46:51:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line +E,J
    Question posted by Peter Rosa on January 15, 1998 at 14:41:46:
    
    Just to expand on my previous answer, at Sutphin Boulevard both the E
    and the J stations are two-track stations with an island platform.
    
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NEXT>8405
PREVIOUS>8400
POSTER>sean 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:10 1998
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Posted by sean on January 15, 1998 at 16:53:42:

   In Reply to: [8]NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by subway-buff
    on January 15, 1998 at 12:57:28:
    
    You might want to mention that north of the 161st-yankee stadium
    station there is a remnant of the old connection to the 'putnam
    shuttle' which brought trains across the Harlem River to the 9th
    avenue 'el' station adjacent to the Polo Grounds.
    
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NEXT>8404
PREVIOUS>8392
POSTER>Joshua Caesar 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:12 1998
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Posted by Joshua Caesar on January 15, 1998 at 17:19:34:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass posted by Avi on January 15,
    1998 at 12:55:31:
    
    
    --keychain for portable reasons
    --rear window mount.>>
    
    Does the key-tag speedpass use the same technology as the rear window
    mounted Speedpass and the EZpass?
    
    While the Speedpass may use the same technology as EZpass, it is
    definatley not as useful. Speedpass bills to your credit card, and
    with pay at the pump, it doesn't cut much time off the transaction
    (you still need to stand there and pump your gas). EZpass however cuts
    out the whole transaction, eliminating the need to even open the
    window and toss out a token.
    
    Josh
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8403
POSTER>Avi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:14 1998
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Posted by Avi on January 15, 1998 at 18:26:10:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Metro-card & E-Z Pass posted by Joshua Caesar on
    January 15, 1998 at 17:19:34:
    
    There is a place on the pump, usually right of the LCD displays that
    show Price of Gas pumped, gallons pumped, fixed price for gas.
    
    I agree with you that E-Z Pass is a worthwhile system, where SpeedPass
    is a toy. I have it because the company I work for gave them to us for
    mileage on our cars. And I put a lot of miles on my car too, (district
    sales mangager is a pain) why I like NY for the Subway.
    
    My thought was that E-Z Pass should have an additional key-ring device
    that could be read in existing swipers. The hard part would be
    coordinating the E-Z Pass and MetroCard Debit accounts. The more I
    think about it, it may not work well from a management standpoint, for
    my E-Z Pass is a result of the aforementioned milage problem.
    
    
    
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NEXT>8417
PREVIOUS>8402
POSTER>ellow One 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:16 1998
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Posted by ellow One on January 15, 1998 at 18:31:12:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by Charles
    Fiori on January 15, 1998 at 16:31:17:
    
    I have a good picture of the Jerome Yards.
    Don't forget about the semifore signals.
    
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NEXT>8495
PREVIOUS>8341
POSTER>Mellow One 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Astoria Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:18 1998
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Posted by Mellow One on January 15, 1998 at 18:53:34:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Astoria Line posted by D-Train on January 12, 1998
    at 02:02:36:
    
    Thanks for the ERA address.
    The last addess I have is:
    145 Greenwich St.
    NY 6, NY
    
    Note the postall zone, not the Zip code.
    
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NEXT>8408
PREVIOUS>8351
POSTER>David 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Grand Central
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:20 1998
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Posted by David on January 15, 1998 at 19:09:35:

   Anyone know where I can read in detail about Grand Central online?
    If so, please post it. Thank You
    
    
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NEXT>8446
PREVIOUS>8407
POSTER>HTL 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Grand Central
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:22 1998
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Posted by HTL on January 15, 1998 at 19:15:39:

   In Reply to: [7]Grand Central posted by Steve on January 14, 1998 at
    16:53:34:
    
    There are two track levels. The upper level covers tracks 1-42. The
    lower level is covered by tracks 101 - 117. Below this level is a few
    cross passageways used for utilities. A few passageways get involved
    in the new North End Access (NEA) project now under construction,
    especially 45 St. below the lower level.
    
    The tracks diverge from a 4 track Park Avenue alignment at 57th street
    into 10 tracks a-j. Tracks a,b,f and j descend to the lower level. The
    lower level is near elevation 115 which is 15 ft above sea level. A
    cross passage to the east river drains from the lower level at 46th
    street.
    
    Tracks 31 and 22 are former short baggage tracks that are removed for
    the NEA. Track 12 is long gone.
    
    Tracks 118-125 are in the Madison yard area which are prime targets
    for the LIRR expansion to GCT. Tra
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>John Betancourt 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: #5 delivery
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:24 1998
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Posted by John Betancourt on January 15, 1998 at 19:41:03:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: The Ex C train Line The madness posted by Wayne
    Johnson on January 13, 1998 at 12:28:05:
    
    If in 85', the #2 & #5 trains were "suppoosed" to have been delivered,
    how come they do not use the sliver trains?
    In the picture that you have, car number 1667, is on use @the number 6
    train. I have been using the trains since I was born and trust me, the
    2&5 trains do not use the silver cars!
    Thank You,
    John Betancourt from Puerto Rico
    mustangboy15@hotmail.com
    
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NEXT>8459
PREVIOUS>8384
POSTER>Peter Gray 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Washington DC Green Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:26 1998
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Posted by Peter Gray on January 15, 1998 at 19:51:56:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Washington DC Green Line posted by Mark Greenwald
    on January 15, 1998 at 10:07:27:
    
    So Mark, which route was finally settled on, New Hampshire or Kansas
    Avenue?
    
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NEXT>8579
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Larry 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>About Grand CEntral
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:27 1998
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Posted by Larry on January 15, 1998 at 20:07:23:

   This message is for a person by the name of HTL. HTL seems to know a
    lot
    about grand Central Station and the levels. I want to ask him if he
    ever heard about the so call "Condos" under the station. I heard that
    they are located in only a few places. What are they? Abandoned rooms?
    Why were they built? Many homeless used to live there until the NYCPD
    cleaned them out.
    Where is this place? On a lower level?
    
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NEXT>8415
PREVIOUS>8371
POSTER>Joker 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Septa Trolley Routes
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:29 1998
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Posted by Joker on January 15, 1998 at 20:15:15:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Septa Trolley Routes posted by Will on January 14,
    1998 at 09:32:05:
    
    Thanks for the comprehensive update. Early in the 21st century sounds
    a long way aways though. It amazes me that 'preliminary study & design
    work' is needed. I guess the next thing will be 'formal study & design
    work', followed by 'advanced study & design work', etc., none of which
    actually gets the trolleys back on the streets. If calling the thing a
    'light rail line' helps get it restored, so be it. However, since
    Philly's track record for restoring trolley service on lines
    'temporarily' converted to exhaust-spewing buses is so bad (never
    happened), Philadelphians will need to keep up the pressure.
    
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NEXT>8428
PREVIOUS>8378
POSTER>Peter.Gray 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:31 1998
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Posted by Peter.Gray on January 15, 1998 at 20:28:27:

   In Reply to: [8]Manhattan Bridge posted by Larry on January 15, 1998
    at 08:50:33:
    
    Larry:
    
    You're absolutely right. You've got the 'New York shuffle' down pat.
    The main beat is 'do nothing, do nothing'. None of the political hacks
    in Brooklyn give a damn about the Manhattan Bridge or the subway
    system because there's far more graft & patronage money to be
    made/doled out on health services & Medicaid rip-offs.
    
    For $500M you could probably have built a whole new bridge (but then
    again, that would mean an end to the perpetual annuity of 'repair
    funds' to the construction companies 'fixing' the bridge; much better
    to continue to 'fix' it for the next 10 or 20 years until it finally
    collapses THEN get the contract to build a new one). But, as I've
    remarked in other postings (see my sermon on 'Priorities'), until
    private enterprise is back running NY's bridges & transit, it will
    only get worse. I guarantee it. Oh well, the passengers on the first
    train to plunge into the East River when metal fatigue finally causes
    the tracks to collapse will at least check out with some notoriety.
    
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NEXT>8426
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mellow One 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Pelham Bay Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:34 1998
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Posted by Mellow One on January 15, 1998 at 20:29:45:

   I would like to ask this question before Pelham Bay Line by Line is
    posted.
    
    We know that the Jerome Ave Line was connected to the 9th Ave El and
    what would become the White Plains Road line was connected to the 3rd
    Ave El.
    
    Was ther ever any serious consideration to connecting the 3rd Ave El
    to the Pelham Bay Line or could there have been initial link up at
    Westchester Ave between the structures when new or even now ?
    This would have been a question for the late Roger Arcara, may he ride
    that heavenly el.
    
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NEXT>8453
PREVIOUS>8412
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Septa Trolley Routes
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:36 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 15, 1998 at 20:30:13:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Septa Trolley Routes posted by Joker on January
    15, 1998 at 20:15:15:
    
    As noted in the other postings, Route 15 is supposed to come back as a
    revitalized light rail line. It will still use Kawasakis as
    articulated low floor LRV's (roughly 20) are slated for purchase, and
    these will likely go into service on Route 13.
    
    I haven't heard any definitive word on operation of trolleys on 15
    this summer. While it might be nice construction often interferes
    (street, utility, etc). It did last summer.
    
    The plan will be expensive since 15 is quite long (close to 11 miles
    one-way) and requires all new everything. It also has capability for
    separated right-of-way in many places given the width of Girard Ave.
    Unfortunately it is not consistently so all the way along the line. 56
    also has this capability on Erie Ave and this was built in a couple of
    places just before the '92 removal of trolleys. 23 does not have this
    capability, but the historic upper reaches of Germantown Ave may save
    at least the portion north of Erie Ave.
    
    When SEPTA is involved in any of this (as it will be, as the owner and
    operator of the lines), I would say don't hold your breath. The only
    reason SEPTA is involved in 15 is political pressure from Mayor
    Rendell. SEPTA likes to spend big bucks on the commuter rail system
    and loose change on the City Division, and this relates inversely to
    the ridership. Don't be surprised if SEPTA finds it "too difficult" or
    "too costly" to do a top-notch job on 15. It will argue, and
    rightfully so, that the replacement bus service is just as good and a
    heck of lot more economical. Those of you familiar with the Phila area
    will know this as we've seen it many times in the past.
    
    Keep your fingers crossed.
    
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NEXT>8420
PREVIOUS>8369
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:39 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on January 15, 1998 at 21:19:49:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by
    Peter Rosa on January 13, 1998 at 12:31:02:
    
    Not that close. When the 2 went to New Lots, it was only 27 miles, and
    that was farther than Flatbush Avenue.
    
    I personally think the C, when it went from Bedford Pk Blvd to
    Rockaway Pk, was the all-time longest.
    
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NEXT>8440
PREVIOUS>8405
POSTER>Dan Schwartz 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:41 1998
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Posted by Dan Schwartz on January 15, 1998 at 21:53:01:

   In Reply to: [8]NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by subway-buff
    on January 15, 1998 at 12:57:28:
    
    Sean already mentioned the connection to the Polo Grounds shuttle,
    certainly include that. Some other points worth mentioning:
    
    - the line diverges slightly from Jerome Ave. south of Bedford Pk.
    Blvd. and rejoins it just north of that stop.
    
    - the Concourse yard provides a connection to the IND Concourse line
    as well as the IRT Jerome Ave. line.
    
    - there is an "underground bridge" over the Metro-North Hudson Line
    tracks just north of 149th St. station.
    
    - and of course, the fleeting view of Yankee Stadium as the trains
    pass, and the special staircases at 161st St. that were opened only
    for Stadium events.
    
    Also at 161st St., the history of the transfer to the IND (first with
    paper transfers, later the enclosed transfer of today) and the
    subway-type mosaic signs on the station wall, also found at Mosholu
    Parkway station.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8401
POSTER>Mike B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line +E,J Question
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:43 1998
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Posted by Mike B on January 15, 1998 at 22:23:51:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line +E,J
    Question posted by Peter Rosa on January 15, 1998 at 14:41:46:
    
    Why is the E on the upper level and the J on a lower level?
    Since the J dives under Archer Avenue from an elevated structure and
    the E is already underground when it reaches Archer Avenue, wouldn't
    it have made more sense to place the E on the lower level and the J on
    the upper?
    
    Seems that it would be more cost efficient to take a train that is
    elevated and have it run above a train that is already underground.
    See example...
    
    J --Elevated Structure----\
    \
    \---------- Underground (Archer Avenue)
    E---Already Underground---------------- Underground (Archer Avenue)
    
    From what has been described, the E is above the J..
    
    
    
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NEXT>8434
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mike B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:46 1998
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Posted by Mike B on January 15, 1998 at 22:37:34:

   Back before the days of skip-stop, there used to be Broadway-Brooklyn
    peak-hour express service between Broadway-Myrtle and Broadway
    Junction using the center express track. Since this was discontinued
    when the skip-stop started, is the center track still there and if so
    what is it used for (if anything.) Also, what kind of condition is it
    in.
    
    Thanks...
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8416
POSTER>Mellow One 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future.
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:50 1998
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Posted by Mellow One on January 15, 1998 at 22:47:16:

   In Reply to: [8]Longest Lines Past, Present, and Future. posted by
    Christopher Rivera on January 13, 1998 at 09:24:39:
    
    I read most of the responses and in most cases the ride is described.
    For example, the D Train south on the Concourse Line to the Junction
    with the Washington Heights Line and south on the 8th Ave Line to 59th
    St and the junction with the 6th Ave Line, then south on 6th Ave, and
    so on ...
    In railroad terms, every time you enter or leave a junction you either
    stay in your own division or line or enter or exit another. The
    Rockaway cross channel line starts at the Fulton Ave El extension of
    the Fulton Ave Line.
    Then there is a junction to either Far Rockaway to the east or
    Rockaway Park to the west. Although the Rockaways may be on the same
    line or division, the channel crossing segment is probably handled as
    a seperate division due to the movable bridges and as a connector to
    the lines at each end. So, which line is the longest, in terms of
    division boundries?
    
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NEXT>8433
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old Market-Frankford Line Cars?
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:53 1998
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Posted by Timothy on January 15, 1998 at 22:54:31:

   When the new M-4's are in full service on SEPTA's Market-Frankford
    Line,
    Is it likely that at least one set of the old Budd trains will be
    saved
    for nostalgia/railfan charters? I would hate to see every one of the
    old
    trains end up in the scrapyard. If SEPTA doesn't plan to keep any of
    the
    Budds, I hope that maybe another transit system will purchase them,
    and
    give them a new lease on life, as San Francisco did with some of
    Philadelphia's old PCC trollies. I hope at least one Budd car can be
    saved
    as a museum piece.
    
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NEXT>8425
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Restrooms
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:56 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 16, 1998 at 01:10:09:

   Does anybody know if there are any remaining restrooms in the subway?
    Or where they used to be? Are most of them just locked now or used for
    another purpose? I was in the subway recently and realized that it was
    close to impossible to find an open bathroom, at least at the stations
    I was at.
    
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NEXT>8432
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>John F. Crowley 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Name dropping
DATE>Jan 23 09:48:59 1998
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Posted by John F. Crowley on January 16, 1998 at 01:39:32:

   I was watching an old Saturday Night Live rerun the other night and
    saw Lou Marini playing sax in the band, and it reminded me of the time
    I saw him on the D train one evening. I've also seen Tony Randall,
    Eric Roberts and Tiny Tim, may he rest in peace. I guess most celebs
    take cabs, but are such sightings unusual?
    
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NEXT>8430
PREVIOUS>8397
POSTER>david vartanoff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Layup Tracks
DATE>Jan 23 09:49:03 1998
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Posted by david vartanoff on January 16, 1998 at 02:41:12:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Layup Tracks posted by Mark S Feinman on January
    15, 1998 at 14:01:50:
    
    in the late sixties when thr weather got very cold they used to annull
    B'way Manhattan exp service on the BMT and fill the tracks from Canal
    north with trains from the end of evening rush til morning. Its warm
    down there.
    
    
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NEXT>8442
PREVIOUS>8422
POSTER>charlie muller 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Restrooms
DATE>Jan 23 09:49:05 1998
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Posted by charlie muller on January 16, 1998 at 04:36:48:

   In Reply to: [7]Restrooms posted by Adam on January 16, 1998 at
    01:10:09:
    
    Most of restrooms are locked as far as i know. The bathrooms at
    bedford park blvd, where i get off, and the 205th st station of the d
    line are used as restrooms or lockers for the token booth people. The
    track workers use those also at the above two stations if they are
    working at those two stations.
    Also i know that the restrooms at 34th st and at 47th-50th st
    rockefeller center (where i get off to go to work) d line is used for
    the workers of the MTA.
    charlie muller.
    
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8414
POSTER>Dan Schwartz 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Pelham Bay Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:49:08 1998
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Posted by Dan Schwartz on January 16, 1998 at 05:28:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Pelham Bay Line posted by Mellow One on January 15,
    1998 at 20:29:45:
    
    There never was any such connection to the Pelham Bay line, nor was
    one ever planned AFAIK.
    
    I suppose it would be physically possible to build a new el structure
    along the currently el-free part of Westchester Ave., connecting the
    2/5 line just north of Simpson St. station with the 6 (Pelham) line
    north of Whitlock Ave. station. I can't imagine there would be much
    support for such a plan.
    
    They just don't build els anymore, and they certainly don't build
    junctions where trains have to cross each other's path. There isn't
    any room on the 2/5 end to build a grade-separated junction, I don't
    think. And what would be the real point? To run 7th Avenue trains up
    the Pelham line? I suppose there must be people living along the
    Pelham line who would like access to the west side of Manhattan, but
    this doesn't seem like the way to go.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8202
POSTER>Serafin jr 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The more things change, the more they remain the same
DATE>Jan 23 09:49:12 1998
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Posted by Serafin jr on January 16, 1998 at 08:36:02:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: The more things change, the more they remain the
    same posted by Brian on January 12, 1998 at 02:34:35:
    
    
    Just jump the turnstiles. hope the TA cop aren't looking
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8413
POSTER>Mike Rothenberg 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge
DATE>Jan 23 09:49:16 1998
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Posted by Mike Rothenberg on January 16, 1998 at 08:54:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge posted by Peter.Gray on January
    15, 1998 at 20:28:27:
    
    Larry and Peterm thanks for continuing this topic. I began the topic
    "Priorities" and am glad it's not going away. In response to my
    earlier posting, someone (was it one of you?) suggested I get active
    with groups that are more concerned with things like the Manhattan
    Bridge problem than this forum. I noted that I was born and raised in
    Brooklyn but now live out west. But the need for people to do
    something remains and it is a topic of legitimate concern to this
    group's readers. The political analysis, though appearing cynical, may
    be accurate and that's the base from which activity to resolve the
    problem, satisfactorily for Brooklyn transit users, must start from.
    One thing that comes to my mind is that this issue needs to be brought
    to many kinds of groups, especially mainstream ones. I'm not totally
    familiar with the City political structure, but think there may be
    local area governing bodies. If this is the case, then a first step
    may be to develop a brief, but powerful, presentation,
    including an estimate of the number of riders affected within each
    local government zone and affect on business and property values in
    it. An overall view of the disruption impact should also be presented.
    A uniform presentation would work best. At each presentation, there
    should be laid out some continuing steps. One should be the
    development of a single group of people, from all the affected local
    Districts, to advance the cause. Developing a propactive single body
    that can address this, with politicians and others, is the best way to
    show that the issue will not die, and it will not be dropped until an
    appropriate solution is found, funded, and built. I found it
    interesting to read about plans for the LIRR to get to Grand Central,
    and for New Jersey transit to get a new tunnel to Manhattan. I would
    urge that all action about a Manhattan Bridge solution present the
    idea that maintenance and replacement of existing infrastructure is a
    higher priority than constructing new infrastructure. After all,
    if the transit agency cannot show it can maintain what it has, it will
    only be a matter of time until new infrastructure can also fall into
    disrepair status. And we do know what deferred maintenance leads to.
    
    One cannot predict the future path of an organization designed to
    lobby for the Manhattan Bridge permanent solution. But it could be
    valuable for transit users throughout the city since other situations,
    in Brooklyn and other boroughs, may also need attention in the future.
    The success of the group I propose, on the Manhattan Bridge problem,
    may force politicians and others to deal with those other issues, and
    not merely look away.
    
    Along that line, if I'm correct, there was a "60 Minutes" piece, some
    years ago, about a scandal (or scandals) in the New York City school
    system, involving theft and sale of supplies by employees to
    companies, which later sold them back to the school syste (of course
    some employees made made out very well with these illegal activities).
    There was also exposure of school janitors having secretarial staff,
    and leaving work early to work on their yachts!! Do you know what the
    feedback was on school system operations? Hopefully, its
    administration was pressured to make needed changes. I'm not implying
    that the same situation exists here, though the money spent on
    constant repairs rather than replacement may be an interesting topic
    to pursue. What I am suggesting is that exposure, as done in the "60
    Minutes" segment, may be a valuable strategy to get the city and
    transit politicians to do what needs to be done here.
    
    Good luck!! Mike Rothenberg
    
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NEXT>8451
PREVIOUS>8394
POSTER>Bill Mosteller 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Automated trains
DATE>Jan 23 09:49:19 1998
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Posted by Bill Mosteller on January 16, 1998 at 08:57:20:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Automated trains posted by Gary Jacobi on January
    15, 1998 at 13:53:10:
    
    The thing airport systems and elevators have in common is that they're
    a lot shorter than real rapid transit lines. (Although when walking
    through Atlanta or climbing the stairs one might get a different
    impression.) The time spent inching up the platform to hit the door
    opening perfectly adds up, particularly on a long line. So it's a
    trade-off.
    
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NEXT>8449
PREVIOUS>8424
POSTER>Bill from S. I. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Layup Tracks
DATE>Jan 23 09:49:21 1998
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Posted by Bill from S. I. on January 16, 1998 at 08:57:27:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Layup Tracks posted by david vartanoff on January
    16, 1998 at 02:41:12:
    
    They use the 4th ave. southbound express tracks between 36th St. and
    59th St. to lay up "R" trains for the morning rushour. Also the
    northbound tracks between 95th St. and 86th St. are used for layups.
    If its really cold out or a snowstorm they will use the express tracks
    between Pacific St. and 36th. St to layup trains so they would not get
    snowbound in the yard.
    
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NEXT>8613
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>CRUNCH! (also an MBTA commuter rail question)
DATE>Jan 23 09:49:23 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 16, 1998 at 09:04:05:

   This morning, the 0710 Kingston local hit a crossing gate in
    Braintree. It was pretty windy, and the gate was being blown into the
    train's path. As soon as the engineer saw it, we stopped hard and as
    short as one can on snowy track, but the train was still going 30 mph
    or so when it hit, and the gate was crumpled like a giant egg noodle,
    and was sitting there moving back and forth, trying to meet its proxy
    switch. Sounds like a badly designed crossing gate to me!
    
    Now for the Question -- does anyone know what the yellow D stands for
    on the refurbished 200 series Pullmans on the MBTA? Not all the cars
    have it -- I believe I was on car# 241D this morning, but I know there
    are others without the D.
    
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NEXT>8439
PREVIOUS>8423
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Name dropping
DATE>Jan 23 09:49:27 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 16, 1998 at 09:09:16:

   In Reply to: [8]Name dropping posted by John F. Crowley on January 16,
    1998 at 01:39:32:
    
    I ran into Vic Tayback one day on the D or the B. (I got on at DeKalb
    and can't remember which it was)
    
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NEXT>8441
PREVIOUS>8421
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old Market-Frankford Line Cars?
DATE>Jan 23 09:49:29 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 16, 1998 at 09:54:26:

   In Reply to: [7]Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old
    Market-Frankford Line Cars? posted by Timothy on January 15, 1998 at
    22:54:31:
    
    SEPTA will probably not save any of the 1961 Budds for nostalgia
    purposes. One set is to be converted into a trash train, but is not
    likely that any will be saved/sold to other properties. Remember,
    these are 1961 era cars built to an almst IRT clearence diagram. No
    one else runs a subway that narrow, and besides, the cost of
    rebuilding exceeds the useful life of a rebuild. Plus, all the
    remaining cars are all married pairs, so that reduces the likelyhood
    of a museum getting "a" car
    
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NEXT>8436
PREVIOUS>8419
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks
DATE>Jan 23 09:49:33 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 16, 1998 at 09:55:28:

   In Reply to: [7]Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks posted by Mike B on
    January 15, 1998 at 22:37:34:
    
    To be accurate, express service between Myrtle Avenue and Eastern
    Parkway was not before the days of skip-stop.
    
    There used to (when I was a boy) morning-only westbound skip-stop
    service from Jamaica 168 St. to Eastern Parkway shared by a 15-Jamaica
    Express and 15-Jamaica local. West of Eastern Parkway the Express ran
    express, the local ran local, and the Myrtle-Chambers Express joined
    in at Myrtle Ave.
    In the afternoons there was no skip-stop anywhere but the 3 trains
    that ran were the Myrtle-Chambers Express, the 15-Jamaica Express, and
    the 14-Broadway Brooklyn Local, which ran to either Atlantic Avenue or
    Canarsie.
    
    The Jamaica line as I remember it at the time had the first BMT/IND
    fluorescent-light cars in the system with a round window at each end.
    And they had BMT number markers 14, 15, etc.
    
    After the big 1967 changeover skip-stop ran in both directions east of
    Eastern Parkway and various combinations of expresses and locals
    (including locals onto the 6th Avenue line to 57th St.) ran west of
    there, but with no more revenue connection to the Canarsie Line.
    
    About 10-15 years ago, when the K service stopped going to 6th Avenue
    from Broadway in Brooklyn, express service between Eastern Pkwy and
    Myrtle Avenue got switched to be a continuation of skip-stop service.
    I imagine, though I haven't been there lately, that the middle track
    is still there.
    
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NEXT>8466
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: ... +E,J Question
DATE>Jan 23 09:49:35 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 16, 1998 at 10:08:54:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Longest Lines Past: Potential Weird Line +E,J
    Question posted by Mike B on January 15, 1998 at 22:23:51:
    
    I think the E platform is above the J because the original plan was/is
    to have it connect to the (outdoor) LIRR tracks through St. Albans
    Through that part of Queens, the tracks currently split into two
    branches, one of which, in the future, would be for LIRR trains, the
    other for the Subway. The J was/is to end at Jamaica Center, since
    people travelling from St. Albans would probably prefer to take the
    much faster Queens Blvd line into Manhattan.
    
    It seems that extending the line to St. Albans has to be the easiest
    and cheapest part of the whole Jamaica reconstruction plan. Does any
    know why haven't they done that yet?
    
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NEXT>8445
PREVIOUS>8434
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks
DATE>Jan 23 09:49:40 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 16, 1998 at 10:30:08:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks posted by Carl
    M. Rabbin on January 16, 1998 at 09:55:28:
    
    Anybody out there know what the "Broadway Short Line" was? I have a
    side route sign from an R11 and that is one designation that is
    difficult to match with any routings of which I am aware.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Short Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:49:43 1998
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Posted by Ed Sachs on January 16, 1998 at 10:50:40:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks posted by
    Charles Fiori on January 16, 1998 at 10:30:08:
    
    The "Broadway Short Line" was the #14 Broadway Local rush hours
    (PM only maybe?) service from Canal St. to Atlantic Ave. or Rockaway
    Pky. referred to previously. Also I recall that at some times, some
    trains
    went to Crescent St. on the Jamaica line.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Bus Service
DATE>Jan 23 09:49:47 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 16, 1998 at 11:58:30:

   Today's (1/16/98) NY Daily News has a piece on how bus service in NY
    has deteriorated a bit and needs to "ramp up" to accomodate all the
    users expected when all the new types of passes come on line.(Wonder
    where I heard that before???)
    [7]Bus Report Sez Service in Tank
    
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NEXT>8506
PREVIOUS>8432
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Name dropping
DATE>Jan 23 09:49:50 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 16, 1998 at 12:08:25:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Name dropping posted by Timothy Speer on January
    16, 1998 at 09:09:16:
    
    JFK Jr. is reputed to ride the subway from time to time.
    
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NEXT>8447
PREVIOUS>8417
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
DATE>Jan 23 09:49:54 1998
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Posted by Ed Sachs on January 16, 1998 at 12:44:29:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by sean on
    January 15, 1998 at 16:53:42:
    
    ... and the shuttle itself is a remnant of through service from the
    Jerome
    Ave. line to the 6th and 9th Ave. Els.
    
    
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NEXT>8444
PREVIOUS>8433
POSTER>Michael S. Buglak 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old Market-Frankford Line Cars?
DATE>Jan 23 09:49:56 1998
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Posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 16, 1998 at 12:59:56:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old
    Market-Frankford Line Cars? posted by Dan Lawrence on January 16, 1998
    at 09:54:26:
    
    Have all the 600-series Budds already been retired? They are all
    single cars. Also, don't forget that these cars are wide-gauge (5' 2
    1/2" I think) & would have to be regauged to run elsewhere. (It HAS
    been done, in the early 1990s for the Norristown High-Speed Line using
    trucks from retired PATH 1200-class "K" cars.)
    Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
    
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NEXT>8443
PREVIOUS>8425
POSTER>sdc_foti 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Restrooms
DATE>Jan 23 09:49:59 1998
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Posted by sdc_foti on January 16, 1998 at 13:40:47:

   In Reply to: [7]Restrooms posted by Adam on January 16, 1998 at
    01:10:09:
    
    Adam,
    Try 42nd and 8th mezza, Whenever i had an emergency I'd always held it
    in until I got to this stop and run up to Mezzanine to unload myself
    also In Flushing there is reputed to be one.
    Foti
    
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NEXT>8448
PREVIOUS>8442
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Restrooms
DATE>Jan 23 09:50:08 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 16, 1998 at 16:56:14:

   In Reply to: [8]Restrooms posted by Adam on January 16, 1998 at
    01:10:09:
    
    The restrooms at Roosevelt Ave - Jackson Heights, in the mezzanine of
    the IND line, are open to the public. I can state this from personal
    experience :)
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8465
PREVIOUS>8441
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old Market-Frankford Line Cars?
DATE>Jan 23 09:50:11 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 16, 1998 at 16:58:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old
    Market-Frankford Line Cars? posted by Timothy on January 15, 1998 at
    22:54:31:
    
    On an ERA fantrip to the 69th St yard and shops last May (or June), we
    were able to ask this question directly to the supervisors of the
    people that maintain the cars. The answer was a resounding "no". SEPTA
    does not plan on saving any of the cars (save the 2 for trash train
    service) and wants to get them off the property as fast as they
    possibly can.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8457
PREVIOUS>8436
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks
DATE>Jan 23 09:50:13 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 16, 1998 at 17:01:28:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks posted by Carl
    M. Rabbin on January 16, 1998 at 09:55:28:
    
    The center track between Broadway Junction and Broadway - Myrtle,
    although ununsed in revenue service, looks to be in good shape.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8510
PREVIOUS>8408
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Grand Central
DATE>Jan 23 09:50:15 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 16, 1998 at 17:04:03:

   In Reply to: [8]Grand Central posted by David on January 15, 1998 at
    19:09:35:
    
    I don't know about on-line, other than this site, but there's a great
    book by Stan Fischler called "Next Stop, Grand Central".
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8463
PREVIOUS>8440
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
DATE>Jan 23 09:50:18 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 16, 1998 at 17:11:25:

   In Reply to: [8]NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by subway-buff
    on January 15, 1998 at 12:57:28:
    
    If you're planning to do the entire 4 line from end to end, that could
    be quite an undertaking. There is a great deal of history and other
    stuff here, so you might want to consider breaking it up into portions
    - the Dual COntracts portion from Grand Central to Woodlawn, the
    original contract one line from Grand Central to City Hall to Borough
    Hall, Brooklyn, and then the remainder. Clearly a mention of the ghost
    stations at 18th St and Worth St, as well as the original City Hall
    terminal and lower level of Brooklyn Bridge, are a must. I suppose
    mention should also be made of the Union Square crash in 1991.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8452
PREVIOUS>8443
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Restrooms
DATE>Jan 23 09:50:20 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 16, 1998 at 17:15:16:

   In Reply to: [8]Restrooms posted by Adam on January 16, 1998 at
    01:10:09:
    
    Mr. Mabstoa has obtained a list and I will pick it up tomorrow,
    Saturday 1/17/1998. I will post to this site when I get it. (Yes, I
    will type it in since I don't have a scanner.)
    
    
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NEXT>8450
PREVIOUS>8430
POSTER>Steve B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Layup Tracks
DATE>Jan 23 09:50:22 1998
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Posted by Steve B on January 16, 1998 at 17:18:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Layup Tracks posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January
    15, 1998 at 07:50:34:
    
    This is a first time post from me. I can remember when the
    Brooklyn-bound track on the Canarsie line was used for layups between
    8th Ave. and Union Square on weekends during the winter months in the
    late 60s. L trains (LL back then, although the BMT standards had no
    markings) bound for Brooklyn would wrong-rail on the 8th Ave-bound
    track past Union Square, then switch over to the Brooklyn-bound track
    just before 3rd Avenue. An 8th Ave. bound train would be held up at
    3rd Ave. until the Brooklyn-bound train had switched over. Apparently,
    only one train was allowed beyond 3rd Ave. at any time. Incidentally,
    they were still doing this when the R-42s first appeared. The
    conductor would announce "This is an LL train to Brooklyn" when
    stopped at 6th Ave. or Union Square while wrong-railing.
    
    I also remember what Bill from S. I. alluded to; i. e., the express
    tracks on the BMT Broadway (N & R) line being used for layups on
    weekends during the winter months in the late 60s. It was very
    disheartening for an express addict like myself to see an uptown N
    train pull into Union Square on the local track (the N ran express at
    all times in Manhattan in those days) and make all local stops before
    terminating at 57th St. Sometimes the N would switch over to express
    between 34th St. and Times Square, instead of just before 57th St., if
    the express track was clear from that point on. I can also remember
    when only the uptown express track would be used for layups. Guess
    which direction I was heading in...aarrrrghhh!
    
    The express track on the Concourse line was occasionally used for
    layups during weekends back then also. I remember seeing this once.
    
    I believe they still use the express tracks on the IND Queens line for
    layups beyond Continental Ave. during evenings and weekends. You could
    probably classify them as storage tracks beyond the Archer Ave.
    connector, now that the F runs local all by itself to 179th St. We'll
    see what happens when the 63rd St. connector opens.
    
    The express track on the Flushing line between Willets Point and Main
    St. is or has been used for layups during Met games at Shea Stadium.
    (I can vouch for this, having seen the Mets at Shea; 1969 and 1986
    were good years.) I wonder if they do the same thing on the 4 line
    during Yankee games.
    
    The center track on the Astoria line has been used for layups in the
    past, as well as the short center track on the Jamaica line between
    121st and 111th Sts. I remember seeing a train of BMT standards parked
    on the latter once in early 1968 while riding a JJ train from Elderts
    Lane to 168th St and back.
    
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NEXT>8464
PREVIOUS>8449
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Layup Tracks
DATE>Jan 23 09:50:26 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 16, 1998 at 17:21:35:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Layup Tracks posted by david vartanoff on January
    16, 1998 at 02:41:12:
    
    Not much as changed. WHen the TA expects severe cold (I guess 15
    degrees or less), they move the trains out of CI Yard and lay them up
    in tunnels in the system, especially if the cold is expected over a
    weekend.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8460
PREVIOUS>8429
POSTER>Rob Stougher 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Automated trains
DATE>Jan 23 09:50:30 1998
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Posted by Rob Stougher on January 16, 1998 at 20:41:38:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Automated trains posted by Gary Jacobi on January
    15, 1998 at 13:53:10:
    
    I went to check that site outline above - it can be done, especially
    if the trains are driven correctly. There are also sound recordings at
    the LUground site. THey all sound like automated voices. Looks nice
    and sharp.
    
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NEXT>8454
PREVIOUS>8448
POSTER>Joshua Caesar 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Restrooms
DATE>Jan 23 09:50:37 1998
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Posted by Joshua Caesar on January 16, 1998 at 20:48:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Restrooms posted by Adam on January 16, 1998 at
    01:10:09:
    
    Although I have never had to check it out, I think the bathrooms at
    179th Street on the F are open still. Also, the bathrooms at the
    former Court Street station (now the Transit Museum) are still open.
    
    JC
    
    
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NEXT>8455
PREVIOUS>8415
POSTER>Joe -M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Septa Trolley Routes
DATE>Jan 23 09:50:41 1998
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Posted by Joe -M on January 16, 1998 at 21:02:30:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Septa Trolley Routes posted by Dan Lawrence on
    January 15, 1998 at 00:27:50:
    
    
    The following 46' Pullman PCC's were built
    
    Cinciantti 1000
    Boston 3002-3196 and 3222-3271
    Baltimore 7023-7428
    
    (Roster and dimension data from "PCC-The Car That Fought Back")
    
    I have seen some Boston cars in Storage in PA I do not remenber if the
    numbers were in this group. I think the museum in Maine was selling
    some of these cars for parts also. The following is an active roster
    (this information may be dated) from the Boston Fleet Roster Page on
    the PCC pages.
    
    What happended to the Baltimore cars and the Cincinatti car?
    
    "Wartime" PCC, series 3072-3096, 3222-3271
    
    Builder: Pullman Standard (WH) 1945-1946 (rebuilt 1978-1983)
    
    Length: 46' Width: 100" Seats: 41
    
    Active Mattapan (11 cars): 3087, 3230, 3232, 3234, 3238, 3254, 3260,
    3262, 3263, 3265, 3268
    
    Stored: 3222 (at Arborway)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    --
    
    
    Green Line:
    
    PCC 3241 on Centre Street, Jamaica Plain in 1985.
    Photo: Scott Moore
    Click here if your browser will not show an inline JPEG image.
    
    "Wartime" PCC, series 3072-3096, 3222-3271
    
    Builder: Pullman Standard (WH) 1945-1946
    
    Length: 46' Width: 100" Seats: 41
    
    Active (0 cars): none
    
    Stored at Arborway (2 cars): 3241, 3264
    
    
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NEXT>8474
PREVIOUS>8452
POSTER>Michael Justice 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Restrooms
DATE>Jan 23 09:50:44 1998
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Posted by Michael Justice on January 16, 1998 at 21:05:10:

   In Reply to: [8]Restrooms posted by Adam on January 16, 1998 at
    01:10:09:
    
    I know that the one at 42 St (8 Ave) is still open. I have used the
    following ones in recent years:
    
    34 Street/Herald Sq
    179 Street
    Roosevelt Ave/Jackson Heights
    Stillwell Ave
    
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NEXT>8458
PREVIOUS>8453
POSTER>Joe -M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Septa Trolley Routes
DATE>Jan 23 09:50:47 1998
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Posted by Joe -M on January 16, 1998 at 21:06:13:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Septa Trolley Routes posted by Dan Lawrence on
    January 15, 1998 at 00:27:50:
    
    
    The following 46' Pullman PCC's were built
    
    Cinciantti 1000
    Boston 3002-3196 and 3222-3271
    Baltimore 7023-7428
    
    (Roster and dimension data from "PCC-The Car That Fought Back")
    
    I have seen some Boston cars in Storage in PA I do not remenber if the
    numbers were in this group. I think the museum in Maine was selling
    some of these cars for parts also. The following is an active roster
    (this information may be dated) from the Boston Fleet Roster Page on
    the PCC pages.
    
    What happended to the Baltimore cars and the Cincinatti car?
    
    "Wartime" PCC, series 3072-3096, 3222-3271
    
    Builder: Pullman Standard (WH) 1945-1946 (rebuilt 1978-1983)
    
    Length: 46' Width: 100" Seats: 41
    
    Active Mattapan (11 cars): 3087, 3230, 3232, 3234, 3238, 3254, 3260,
    3262, 3263, 3265, 3268
    
    Stored: 3222 (at Arborway)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    --
    
    
    Green Line:
    
    PCC 3241 on Centre Street, Jamaica Plain in 1985.
    Photo: Scott Moore
    Click here if your browser will not show an inline JPEG image.
    
    "Wartime" PCC, series 3072-3096, 3222-3271
    
    Builder: Pullman Standard (WH) 1945-1946
    
    Length: 46' Width: 100" Seats: 41
    
    Active (0 cars): none
    
    Stored at Arborway (2 cars): 3241, 3264
    
    
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NEXT>8469
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>____________________________________________________ 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Can anyone tell me what service changes are in store during the
DATE>Jan 23 09:50:49 1998
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____________________________________________________

   Can anyone tell me what service changes are in store during the
    reconstruction of the Lenox Av #2 & #3 trains & other changes for bus
    & subway service during the reconstruction. Please post it.
    
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NEXT>8468
PREVIOUS>8445
POSTER>Walter 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks
DATE>Jan 23 09:50:51 1998
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Posted by Walter on January 17, 1998 at 00:02:12:

   In Reply to: [7]Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks posted by Mike B on
    January 15, 1998 at 22:37:34:
    
    The Broadway (Brooklyn) express track between Marcy Ave. and Myrtle
    Ave. is still used today during rush hours for express service (J
    trains). Until 1974 the J train ran express from Eastern Parkway to
    Marcy Ave. (and the M ran express from Myrtle Ave. to Marcy Ave.)
    during rush hours. At some time in the 1960s or 1970s the Marcy Ave.
    crossovers (express track to local track Manhattan-bound and local
    track to express track Jamaica-bound) was moved from west of the Marcy
    Ave. station to east of it. In other words until that date Marcy Ave.
    was a local station, but now express trains also stop at Marcy Ave.
    Another point: I remember, as a boy in the early 1950s, riding the
    Jamaica train to Manhattan on Saturday mornings and running express
    from Eastern Parkway all the way to Essex St. When did Saturday
    express service end?
    
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NEXT>8492
PREVIOUS>8455
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Septa Trolley Routes
DATE>Jan 23 09:50:54 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 17, 1998 at 00:24:31:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Septa Trolley Routes posted by Joe -M on January
    16, 1998 at 21:06:13:
    
    Other than the Baltimore and the Cincinatti demonstrator, no other 46'
    standard air cars were built by Pullman. Baltimore bought 245 Pullmans
    (1939 - 1944) and the Cincinatti car makes 246. Only BTCo 7407
    (Pullman 1944) survives, all others were scrapped between 1955 and
    1964.
    
    Because of the left-hand doors and the different right side door
    placement, the Boston Pullmans cannot be considered "standard". The MG
    set and control components are also placed differently from standard
    PCC cars.
    
    One PCC oddity is that the 1942 St. Louis cars for Los Angeles piloted
    the right side door arrangement for TRC.
    
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NEXT>8618
PREVIOUS>8410
POSTER>Mark Greenwald 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Washington DC Green Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:50:55 1998
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Posted by Mark Greenwald on January 17, 1998 at 00:41:37:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Washington DC Green Line posted by Peter Gray on
    January 15, 1998 at 19:51:56:
    
    The route runs up new Hampshire Avenue between the Columbia Hts.
    Station and Fort Totten---sorry about that--didn't mean to leave out
    such an important detail.........It's due to open Late 1999, in fact,
    the Washington Post posted a message on 12/8/97 about the completion
    of the Georgia Ave.-Petworth station at the intersection of the 2
    avenues.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8451
POSTER>Nathan 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Automated trains
DATE>Jan 23 09:50:57 1998
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Posted by Nathan on January 17, 1998 at 04:15:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Automated trains posted by Rob Stougher on January 13,
    1998 at 13:39:01:
    
    I was in DFW a couple of weeks ago and had to use the TRAAM (after
    enjoying American Airlines' "Bistro Bag"!). I didn't notice anything
    spectacular about it, it seemed pretty similar to the STS people mover
    in Sea-Tac.
    However:
    1)I hate double doors, I want to be able to see the trains (and no
    double doors is an advantage for suicidal people who do not want to
    climb tall buildings!)
    
    2)With automation, more exact train-platform lineups can be achieved.
    I have never ridden BART, but where I live lot's of cash and scandal
    was poured into the building of a system using driverless trains
    powered by linear induction motors. Anyway, the point being is that
    the computer controlling the trains must know the exact location of
    each train (within 1/4 inch) or there is a shut down. In stations,
    there is a stripe on the guideway and the front of the train always
    stops just above that stripe, and the accuracy is maintained even
    though trains travel at 75mph.
    
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NEXT>8477
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Electroliner Question 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Nathan
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:00 1998
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Posted by Electroliner Question on January 17, 1998 at 04:17:34:

   I was thinking, how fast did the old "Electroliner" interurbans go?
    Were they truly a "High speed" interurban?
    I wasn't alive at the time so I hope someone could help me out.
    
    thanx
    
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NEXT>8476
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Nathan 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Electroliner Question
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:02 1998
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Posted by Nathan on January 17, 1998 at 04:18:16:

   I was thinking, how fast did the old "Electroliner" interurbans go?
    Were they truly a "High speed" interurban?
    I wasn't alive at the time so I hope someone could help me out.
    
    thanx
    
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NEXT>8467
PREVIOUS>8447
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:05 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 17, 1998 at 06:09:16:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by ellow
    One on January 15, 1998 at 18:31:12:
    
    
    Where is this signal?
    Do you have the picture scanned?
    If not can yuo send me a copy
    Peggy Darlignton
    970 Broaf Street Rm 1204
    Newark, NJ 07101
    
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NEXT>8470
PREVIOUS>8450
POSTER>Bill from S.I. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Layup Tracks
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:08 1998
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Posted by Bill from S.I. on January 17, 1998 at 08:38:45:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Layup Tracks posted by Mark S Feinman on January
    16, 1998 at 17:21:35:
    
    I think they have a problem with the air brakes, if they leave the
    trains in the yard, moisture in the air lines might freeze; besides
    the seats being cold as heck!
    
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NEXT>8481
PREVIOUS>8444
POSTER>Joshua Caesar 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old Market-Frankford Line Cars?
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:10 1998
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Posted by Joshua Caesar on January 17, 1998 at 08:52:54:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old
    Market-Frankford Line Cars? posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 16,
    1998 at 12:59:56:
    
    Why don't they don't a pair to each trolley meusem around the country?
    If they want to get rid of them fast, what a great way. For the cost
    of a litttle bit of scrap, look at the PR they get.
    
    Joshua Caesar
    studlyjc@aol.com
    
    
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NEXT>8486
PREVIOUS>8435
POSTER>Joshua Caesar 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: ... +E,J Question
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:12 1998
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Posted by Joshua Caesar on January 17, 1998 at 08:58:21:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: ... +E,J Question posted by Carl M. Rabbin on
    January 16, 1998 at 10:08:54:
    
    For much of the same reason that there is no 2nd ave line, a tunnel to
    Staten Island, and a few other missing projects. Lack of money is
    probably the big factor in that project not happening, although I am
    sure there could be other reasons as well.
    
    Joshua Caesar
    studlyjc@aol.com
    
    
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NEXT>8478
PREVIOUS>8463
POSTER>Lou from Middletown 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:15 1998
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Posted by Lou from Middletown on January 17, 1998 at 10:41:34:

   In Reply to: [7]NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by subway-buff
    on January 15, 1998 at 12:57:28:
    
    Not to mention how the line from Grand Central north was designed and
    built originally to the "wide" 10 ft demensions of the BMT, because it
    was originally designed to be part of the Triborough System, before
    the Dual Contracts came into play...
    
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NEXT>8523
PREVIOUS>8457
POSTER>Mike B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:17 1998
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Posted by Mike B on January 17, 1998 at 12:26:07:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks posted by Carl
    M. Rabbin on January 16, 1998 at 09:55:28:
    
    I have an old subway map which (after 1967) which shows that there was
    still peak hour revenue service from Broadway to Rockaway Parkway
    after the 1967 changeover. The JJ train ran betwwen Broad Street in
    Manhattan and any one of 4 terminals in Brooklyn/Queens. Atlatic
    Avenue, Rockaway Parkway, Crescent Street or 168th Street-Jamaica.
    In 1968, the 57th Street-6th Avenue station opened. At that point the
    JJ ended and the KK began. The KK ran from between 57th Street-6th
    Avenue and Broadway Junction or 168th Street-Jamaica. When the KK came
    to be, this ended all revenue service between Broadway and Canarsie.
    Although, during the off-peak hours, many KK tains were layed-up at
    Atlantic Avenue and at the Rockaway Parkway yard.
    
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NEXT>8471
PREVIOUS>8456
POSTER>____________________________________________________ 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Can anyone tell me what service changes are in store during the
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:20 1998
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____________________________________________________

   In Reply to: [8]Can anyone tell me what service changes are in store
    during the reconstruction of the Lenox Av #2 & #3 trains & other
    changes for bus & subway service during the reconstruction. posted by
    Jeremy on January 16, 1998 at 21:29:07:
    
    Look at the official MTA site for service disruption notices.
    
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NEXT>8472
PREVIOUS>8464
POSTER>Mike B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Layup Tracks
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:22 1998
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Posted by Mike B on January 17, 1998 at 12:42:16:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Layup Tracks posted by Steve B on January 16, 1998
    at 17:18:22:
    
    I remember the trains that used to lay-up on the #7 during Met games.
    These trains were nicknamed the "baseball specials" and made express
    stops between Willets-Point and Times Square after Met games ended.
    (These were the 1st trains I had ever seen on the #7 that had the
    desigantion SPECIAL on the bottom side destination sign. Usually they
    had "LOCAL" or
    , depending on which direction was peak hour). Usually there were a
    few specials waiting on the Bridge between Willets Point and Main
    Street. I don't believe these baseball specials were advertised much.
    After a game, the Manhattan bound local platform was jam-packed. While
    the Manhattan bound express/special track was not that bad. In
    addition, you'd always get a seat on the express baseball special
    while the local trains barely had breathing room. These "specials" did
    not run during the week (day games) as the express track was used for
    peak-hour express service to Main Street. However, they did run after
    weekend day games.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8469
POSTER>____________________________________________________ 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Can anyone tell me what service changes are in store during the
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:24 1998
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____________________________________________________

   In Reply to: [8]Can anyone tell me what service changes are in store
    during the reconstruction of the Lenox Av #2 & #3 trains & other
    changes for bus & subway service during the reconstruction. posted by
    Jeremy on January 16, 1998 at 21:29:07:
    
    
    Join the ERA if you have interests in NYC Transit related issues,
    
    Electric Railroaders Association
    PO Box 3001
    NY NY 10008-3001
    
    
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NEXT>8520
PREVIOUS>8470
POSTER>Mike B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Layup Tracks
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:28 1998
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Posted by Mike B on January 17, 1998 at 12:50:59:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Layup Tracks posted by Bill from S. I. on January
    16, 1998 at 08:57:27:
    
    They also used to lay-up trains on the Southbound express tracks
    between 36th Street and 59th Street on the 4th Avenue line on
    Weekends. On Saturday's. the southbound B and N would run it's normal
    express from Pacific Street to 36th Street. From there, the B would
    switch to the West-End and the N would switch to the local tracks and
    make local stops (along with the RR) to 59th Street. From there, the N
    would switch to the Sea Beach. This only affected the Downtown side,
    uptown N trains ran express between 59th Street and Pacific Street.
    On Sundays, all trains were scheduled to run local anyway, so the
    lay-up had no effect. Saturday trains were definitely affected.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Steve L 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Staten Island Private Express Carriers
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:30 1998
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Posted by Steve L on January 17, 1998 at 13:18:38:

   Does anyone have a listing of Private Carriers
    including Route numbers or Route names
    Thank you ....Steve
    
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NEXT>8491
PREVIOUS>8454
POSTER>Gary 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Restrooms
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:32 1998
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Posted by Gary on January 17, 1998 at 14:02:16:

   In Reply to: [8]Restrooms posted by Adam on January 16, 1998 at
    01:10:09:
    
    Since it dosn't matter to most of the clientel where or whether any of
    the few open bathrooms are, I considering suggesting to TA management
    that they open and modify a room on the mezzinine levels of the larger
    stations,
    a room with tiled, archway entrys,multiple-drained floors and tiled
    walls. Customers, who are going to go anyway, could
    enter,relieve,exit. Modesty
    isn't a problem since anywhere in the stations is a good place these
    days.
    
    Station cleaners would be provided with std. hose bibs at the entry of
    each arch. A simple hosing down the drain, and clean-ups done.
    
    I judge the quality of my work shift partially on how many puddles I
    have to jump. And then there's that favorite sing-along..."A Hundred
    Puddles of Pee on the Floor" Everybody join in...............
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Is it true that NYCT might add a new bus route between the College of SI &
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:35 1998
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   I heard a rumar recently that NYCT might add a new bus route between
    the College of SI & Bay Ridge Brooklyn, if anyone has any information
    regarding this new route, post it.
    
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NEXT>8540
PREVIOUS>8462
POSTER>Alan Follett 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Electroliner Question
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:37 1998
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Posted by Alan Follett on January 17, 1998 at 15:06:14:

   In Reply to: [8]Electroliner Question posted by Nathan on January 17,
    1998 at 04:18:16:
    
    The Electroliners were indeed fast; according to Middleton's _North
    Shore: America's Fastest Interurban_, their eight motors totalling
    1000 HP gave them a free-running speed of 85 MPH, and they could hit
    100 MPH with field shunting. And they were regularly operated at or
    near these speeds on the long straightaways through the Skokie Valley
    and between Waukegan and Milwaukee. In the 1956 timetable, the fastest
    'Liner schedule, No. 818, Sunday evenings only, with no stops between
    Kenosha and Howard Street, made the 85 miles from Milwaukee to the
    Chicago Loop in 1:49, despite slow street running leaving Milwaukee
    and several sharp curves on the "L" south of Wilson Avenue. End-to-end
    average, then, was about 46.78 MPH. The longest non-stop segment, say
    about 40 miles, was carded for 42 minutes, for an average of 57 MPH.
    
    Other 'Liner runs, making more intermediate stops, managed times of
    about 1:53, an average of about 45 MPH. It should be noted that even
    the North Shore's older heavyweight cars did almost as well; typical
    Chicago-Milwaukee cardings for conventional trains averaged around two
    hours, with about ten intermediate stops.
    
    All this, and the famous railfan seat opposite the motorman's cab, and
    the Electroburger too. Sorry you missed them! If you're ever in the
    Chicago area, the Illinois Railway Museum at Union (about 50 miles
    west of Chicago) has one restored to its original appearance.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8461
POSTER>Mellow One 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Nathan
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:40 1998
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Posted by Mellow One on January 17, 1998 at 15:07:14:

   In Reply to: [8]Nathan posted by Electroliner Question on January 17,
    1998 at 04:17:34:
    
    Yes, the were very fast.
    They would exceed 80 mph on some stretches.
    I saw and rode them when I was stationed at Great Lakes NTC in 62 and
    rode on the lat day of operation in Jan of 63.
    See Middleton's book "North Shore" and the many CERA bulletins that
    describe the line and the Electroliners.
    I do not know how fast they ran as Liberty Liners.
    You will have to check other bulletins or magazine articles for that
    period of thier history.
    I know that one of them is now preserved in working order at the
    Illinois Railway Museum.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8467
POSTER>mellow one 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:41 1998
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Posted by mellow one on January 17, 1998 at 15:40:58:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by
    subway-buff on January 17, 1998 at 06:09:16:
    
    I do not not have a personal picture of the semifore signals at
    Kingsbridge Rd. However, there is a picture of the signals in the book
    
    New York Transit Memories which I noted in an earlier posting of that
    title.
    My pictures of the Jerome yards come from a railfan trip in the early
    60's.
    We also went down the new ramp between the Jerome line and the IND
    yards.
    I will be posting those pictures on my home page at
    http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1346/.
    
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NEXT>8487
PREVIOUS>8251
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: July,1,1998 and Record Attempt
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:44 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on January 17, 1998 at 15:54:05:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: July,1,1998 and Record Attempt posted by a.aprdi
    on January 13, 1998 at 00:52:30:
    
    I hope this doesn't apply to Franklin Avenue station, that might crimp
    whatever path is used.
    
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NEXT>8483
PREVIOUS>8303
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:45 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on January 17, 1998 at 17:55:35:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
    posted by John Stewart on January 13, 1998 at 18:18:20:
    
    You know, I saw something similar on the #1! I was waiting at the
    238th St. station at night on the downtown platform, when I noticed a
    room closed off from the public. I looked through the windows and also
    saw what looked like an antique waiting room, complete with either a
    stove or fireplace, I don't remember all the details (I haven't
    thought about it all til now! 8-S). Does anyone know if any other el
    stations have these waiting rooms and are they visible to the public?
    
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NEXT>8482
PREVIOUS>8465
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old Market-Frankford Line Cars?
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:47 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 17, 1998 at 17:57:32:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old
    Market-Frankford Line Cars? posted by Joshua Caesar on January 17,
    1998 at 08:52:54:
    
    Two problems. One is "give". SEPTA doesn't give anything away. Second
    is "preserve". SEPTA's not too good in this area either.
    
    Some sources have noted that a group (no details on how big) will be
    kept for an interim period until the M-4's prove themselves. Also, if
    a surge in ridership occurs (and it did when new equipment was
    introduced both on the Broad St Subway and the subway-surface lines,
    and in each case SEPTA was caught with its proverbial pants down, with
    no additional old equipment on hand to take up the slack), the Budds
    could handle this. The only problem there is that the Budds are old
    and gett
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8481
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old Market-Frankford Line Cars?
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:49 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 17, 1998 at 17:57:36:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Does SEPTA Plan To Save Any Of The Old
    Market-Frankford Line Cars? posted by Joshua Caesar on January 17,
    1998 at 08:52:54:
    
    Two problems. One is "give". SEPTA doesn't give anything away. Second
    is "preserve". SEPTA's not too good in this area either.
    
    Some sources have noted that a group (no details on how big) will be
    kept for an interim period until the M-4's prove themselves. Also, if
    a surge in ridership occurs (and it did when new equipment was
    introduced both on the Broad St Subway and the subway-surface lines,
    and in each case SEPTA was caught with its proverbial pants down, with
    no additional old equipment on hand to take up the slack), the Budds
    could handle this. The only problem there is that the Budds are old
    and getting harder to maintain. This is why the shop forces say that
    none will remain behind when all M-4's are in operation.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8480
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:51 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on January 17, 1998 at 17:59:35:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
    posted by a pardi on January 13, 1998 at 00:17:49:
    
    Are there any wooden platforms on the Franklin Avenue shuttle? I think
    Franklin Avenue and possibly Park Place are wood.
    
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NEXT>8490
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Christopher Rivera 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Sub-Game
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:54 1998
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Posted by Christopher Rivera on January 17, 1998 at 18:24:53:

   Do you think that you know alot about the New york City Subway? Then
    answer the follwing questions.
    1. Name there was only one line that went from the West End Line
    through Coney Island on to the Brighton Line.Was it the-
    1. NX train. QB train or the QJ train?
    
    2.What was the AA train line replaced by-
    1. The K train. The E Train or the C Train?
    
    3. What was the QJ train replaced by? Was it the-
    1. The J train 2.The EE train or the JJ train?
    
    4. True or false. Did the N train terminate at 57 Street?
    
    5. In the 1960's in brooklyn the 4 train had 3 terminals. Were they
    1. Atlantic Ave/Utica Ave and Flatbush Avenue 2.Utica Ave/New Lots
    Avenue and Atlantic Ave?
    
    6.In Manhattan the 6 train had a terminal(This was in the 1960's) was
    it-
    1. South Ferry or City Hall.
    
    7. When numbers came out in 1907 what were the numbers? Hint: Some of
    the numbers are still here.
    
    Bonus. In the 1960's the was a KK train. What were the terminals?
    Hin't the Terminls are still on use.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Christopher Rivera 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NY Subway Line by Line- 4 Train
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:57 1998
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Posted by Christopher Rivera on January 17, 1998 at 18:31:37:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NY SUbway Line by Line- 4 Train posted by Lou from
    Middletown on January 17, 1998 at 10:41:34:
    
    The 4 train is the most famous line in the New York City Subway System
    Oh if you go into the section I made up. It is called Sub-Game you
    will get one of the hardest questions in the game. Check it out.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8466
POSTER>Christopher Rivera 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: ... +E,J Question
DATE>Jan 23 09:51:59 1998
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Posted by Christopher Rivera on January 17, 1998 at 18:39:28:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: ... +E,J Question posted by Joshua Caesar on
    January 17, 1998 at 08:58:21:
    
    In the 1970's the MTA had plenty of lines but it was easy to get lost
    in the maze of tunnels. To add more lines would be a problem and it
    would damage alot of lines that run near it.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8479
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: July,1,1998 and Record Attempt
DATE>Jan 23 09:52:01 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 17, 1998 at 18:53:58:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: July,1,1998 and Record Attempt posted by a.aprdi
    on January 13, 1998 at 00:52:30:
    
    As official clerk of this group I have this comment.
    
    Since we plan on riding the system on *one* fare, a day pass, or
    whatever they call it, would not be any use to us. Once you enter the
    system you can stay "forever" (at least till the next strike if there
    is one.) Or a watermain break forces evacuation of a section. Even if
    the paper emwtrocard transfter ta Franklin Shuttle is used we still
    paid only one fare to ride the system.
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>$ train- Bronx Mosaics
DATE>Jan 23 09:52:03 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 17, 1998 at 18:59:35:

   I spent 8 hours riding this entire line today, getting off at every
    station and surveying the platforms, mezzanines, station houses,
    underpasses and found a new discovery.
    
    We all know of the mosaic at Moshulu Parkway. I found another at 161
    street. It is painted over but you can see through the paint. Look by
    the stairs to go to the IND and you'll see it- both platforms. It
    simply says 161 street. Unless they are under a windscreen, no other
    station has these. I also found what appears to be a new tunnel
    turning Southeastward from the Brooklyn bound 3 track at Utica. It is
    just past the crossover. Does anyone know if this was for a future
    connection.
    (I did in as research for my project on this line.12 pages of notes!!)
    
    
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NEXT>8500
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>4 train- Bronx Mosaics
DATE>Jan 23 09:52:09 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 17, 1998 at 19:00:16:

   I spent 8 hours riding this entire line today, getting off at every
    station and surveying the platforms, mezzanines, station houses,
    underpasses and found a new discovery.
    
    We all know of the mosaic at Moshulu Parkway. I found another at 161
    street. It is painted over but you can see through the paint. Look by
    the stairs to go to the IND and you'll see it- both platforms. It
    simply says 161 street. Unless they are under a windscreen, no other
    station has these. I also found what appears to be a new tunnel
    turning Southeastward from the Brooklyn bound 3 track at Utica. It is
    just past the crossover. Does anyone know if this was for a future
    connection.
    (I did in as research for my project on this line.12 pages of notes!!)
    
    
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NEXT>8493
PREVIOUS>8484
POSTER>Mike B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Sub-Game
DATE>Jan 23 09:52:13 1998
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Posted by Mike B on January 17, 1998 at 21:41:12:

   In Reply to: [8]Sub-Game posted by Christopher Rivera on January 17,
    1998 at 18:24:53:
    
    Do you think that you know alot about the New york City Subway? Then
    answer the follwing
    questions.
    1. Name there was only one line that went from the West End Line
    through Coney Island on to the
    Brighton Line.Was it the-
    1. NX train. QB train or the QJ train?
    None of the above. There is no connection between the West-End and
    Brighton Beach at Coney Island. The NX ran thru the Sea Beach thru
    Coney Island to the Brighton Line.
    
    2.What was the AA train line replaced by-
    1. The K train. The E Train or the C Train?
    The K train.
    
    3. What was the QJ train replaced by? Was it the-
    1. The J train 2.The EE train or the JJ train?
    The J train.
    
    4. True or false. Did the N train terminate at 57 Street?
    True
    
    5. In the 1960's in brooklyn the 4 train had 3 terminals. Were they
    1. Atlantic Ave/Utica Ave and Flatbush Avenue 2.Utica Ave/New Lots
    Avenue and Atlantic Ave?
    Atlantic Ave/Utica Ave and Flatbush Avenue.
    
    6.In Manhattan the 6 train had a terminal(This was in the 1960's) was
    it-
    1. South Ferry or City Hall.
    South Ferry
    
    7. When numbers came out in 1907 what were the numbers? Hint: Some of
    the numbers are still
    here.
    1,2,3,4,5,6,7,9,10,14,15,16
    
    Bonus. In the 1960's the was a KK train. What were the terminals?
    Hin't the Terminls are still on
    use.
    57th Street-6th Avenue
    Broadway Junction / Jamaica-168th Street
    
    
    
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NEXT>8498
PREVIOUS>8474
POSTER>Mark Rubinsteim 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Restrooms
DATE>Jan 23 09:52:15 1998
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Posted by Mark Rubinsteim on January 17, 1998 at 23:31:17:

   In Reply to: [8]Restrooms posted by Adam on January 16, 1998 at
    01:10:09:
    
    The restrooms are still open to the public at the Far Rockaway and
    Coney Island stations, both the last stops on their respective lines.
    I guess the MTA figures that if you've held it that far, you've earned
    your time in the toity.
    
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NEXT>8496
PREVIOUS>8458
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Septa Trolley Routes
DATE>Jan 23 09:52:22 1998
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Posted by Joe M on January 17, 1998 at 23:32:06:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Septa Trolley Routes posted by Dan Lawrence on
    January 17, 1998 at 00:24:31:
    
    
    Gerry O'Regan is right the standard cars were not so standard but
    thats what keeps them interesting.
    
    I looked at Daves pictures of 7407 on the Baltimore PCC page.
    
    Does anyone know what happended to the Cincinatti car??
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8490
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Sub-Game
DATE>Jan 23 09:52:26 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on January 17, 1998 at 23:32:17:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Sub-Game posted by Mike B on January 17, 1998 at
    21:41:12:
    
    Was #1 supposed to be a trick question? I almost got fooled by it! I
    didn't really "see" the West End part -- just the part about going
    through Coney Island.
    
    
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NEXT>8611
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Ray Ottulich 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Oueensborough Plaza
DATE>Jan 23 09:52:30 1998
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Posted by Ray Ottulich on January 17, 1998 at 23:44:05:

   Always wondered what the massive amounts of EL structure were for in
    the plaza, when I was a kid used to ride by from Ditmars all the time,
    though the majority of it did not have tract at the time 50's 60's
    70's remember them removing a large portion in the 70's. Where was
    this Stienway line? I know about the Queensborough bridge line but
    what about the rest?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8406
POSTER>Ray Ottulich 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Astoria Line
DATE>Jan 23 09:52:33 1998
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Posted by Ray Ottulich on January 17, 1998 at 23:55:29:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Astoria Line posted by Gerry O'Regan on January
    14, 1998 at 12:09:47:
    
    Any Photos of the whole complex around?
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8492
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Septa Trolley Routes
DATE>Jan 23 09:52:36 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 18, 1998 at 01:23:26:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Septa Trolley Routes posted by Joe M on January
    17, 1998 at 23:32:06:
    
    I suspect that the Cincinatti Pullman went to scrap along with the
    last Witts in the Queen City. TTC bought all the St. Louis built cars,
    but did not take the Pullman.
    
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NEXT>8554
PREVIOUS>8380
POSTER>Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The "Line by Line" Posts:Flushing
DATE>Jan 23 09:52:39 1998
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Posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 18, 1998 at 04:12:08:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: The "Line by Line" Posts:Flushing posted by Lou
    from Middletown on January 15, 1998 at 09:25:49:
    
    According to Bernard Linder in an ERA article on BMT service history
    the Flus exp service started in 1939.
    
    I have much info attesting to the round robin Ast-Flus BMT services
    that was the mainstay until then. Does anyone know if the exp service
    changed the service - whether it continued in a loop fashion?
    
    (The reason for the loop had to do with the track layout at QP).
    
    I'll EMail some early QP track maps to whoever is doing the writeup of
    this line...
    
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NEXT>8499
PREVIOUS>8491
POSTER>Subman23 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Restrooms
DATE>Jan 23 09:52:44 1998
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Posted by Subman23 on January 18, 1998 at 04:55:11:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Restrooms posted by Gary on January 17, 1998 at
    14:02:16:
    
    Trust me on this one. Public restrooms cause more harm than they are
    worth.
    
    Subway restrooms are used mainly for the following:
    
    1) homosexual hotels
    
    2) homeless restaurants
    
    3) pharmacies for the junkies.
    
    
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NEXT>8501
PREVIOUS>8498
POSTER>Gary 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Restrooms
DATE>Jan 23 09:52:53 1998
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Posted by Gary on January 18, 1998 at 13:39:29:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Restrooms posted by Subman23 on January 18, 1998
    at 04:55:11:
    
    These points were told to me in "school". Homosexual hotels, or hetero
    sexual for that matter. Theres the time when leaving the signal
    quarters at the Plaza, the maintainer found himself face to face ( or
    some other parts!)
    with a quickie..
    
    With an open type area, no partitions, a space would represent the
    hidden corner of a stair well or column. As I said, the relative
    openness or not does not seem to be the deciding factor.
    
    A room, or area devoid of benches, shelves, partitions, and one that
    perhaps has a perimeter type of wash down system, sounds somewhat
    loiter unfriendly. Especially when its covered in urine.
    
    As for the darn junkies. I suppose drug addiction is something that
    the city/state legal dept. needs to deal with. In "school" we're told
    about finding used "sharps" on the track bed.The junkies are out there
    anyway.
    
    And yet the disgusting floors of the stations and bench walks exist.
    How about managements concern for the customers that are exposed to
    unsanitary conditions. The bench walks are often "slippery with slime"
    creating an unsafe walking condition near the trackway. What happened
    to the Saftey Standdown?
    
    I don't propose this for every station.
    
    Subman23.....thank you for the input. The forth coming website
    dedicated to Transit/Subway employees will explore a wide range of
    ideas and topics. Anonymous posting names will insure discretion when
    posting.
    I'd like to have it be "safe " for workers and management to exprees
    their "real" opinions.
    
    The TWU 100 site appears to be alot of union/political mumbo-jumbo.
    Having a place for the 40K + employees, or percentage that are online,
    MAY have a positive effect on the work place and attitudes.
    
    The web server/host has been contacted, and already have
    volunteer/support. I see an online news letter devoid of much of the
    TA hype and posture. Stay tuned for more. Hope to see you there.
    
    Gary/MOW/Signals
    
    
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NEXT>8502
PREVIOUS>8489
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 4 train- Bronx Mosaics
DATE>Jan 23 09:52:58 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 18, 1998 at 15:29:55:

   In Reply to: [8]4 train- Bronx Mosaics posted by subway-buff on
    January 17, 1998 at 19:00:16:
    
    Wow, it sounds like you really did do your homework! Too bad they
    don't have the $4 ride-all-you-want card now, it would have saved you
    a lot of money!
    
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NEXT>8531
PREVIOUS>8499
POSTER>Joshua Caesar 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Restrooms
DATE>Jan 23 09:53:03 1998
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Posted by Joshua Caesar on January 18, 1998 at 17:06:29:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Restrooms posted by Mark Rubinsteim on January 17,
    1998 at 23:31:17:
    
    The restroom is also open at 179th Street, like I said in an earlier
    post ([9]Re: Restrooms) I guess that this really has something more to
    do with providing restrooms for train crews whose trains are layed up
    at the moment. Although your hold it that far, time in the toity
    theory is kinda funny.
    
    Joshua Caesar
    studlyjc@aol.com
    
    
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NEXT>8560
PREVIOUS>8500
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 4 train- Bronx Mosaics
DATE>Jan 23 09:53:05 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 18, 1998 at 17:29:07:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: 4 train- Bronx Mosaics posted by Adam on January
    18, 1998 at 15:29:55:
    
    I stayed in the fare control. You can see from train windows,
    platforms (especially since the extreme ends of this line have no
    windscreens!!).
    
    To those asking about 9th ave- some crossties are still there! as of
    1/17/1998, on both the upper level(4 train) and lower level.
    
    I did this leg on just two fares with a lunch stop in the middle.
    Tomorrow, thanks MLK :-), I'll cover 170 to woodlawn and then write it
    up. I have e-mailed several non-subtalk posters in transit for info. I
    have 12 pages of notes so far!!
    
    Note: I am covering the **express* stops only. I hope that whoever is
    inspired to do Pelham will cover the local stops-including City Hall.
    
    This is not a volunteer,yet, but *if* Dave likes my 4 piece, then
    ***maybe*** I finish the Lex by adding Pelham (I am leaving South
    Ferry for the Pelham person)
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>8524
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lefty 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>extension of the S or 7 westward
DATE>Jan 23 09:53:08 1998
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Posted by Lefty on January 18, 1998 at 19:32:43:

   it would be sooo nice if they extended the 7 or the S from times
    square going west to meet up with the A,C,E so people wouldnt have to
    make that loooong xfer walk.. im pretty sure that its impossible to
    extend the S, but what about the 7?
    
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NEXT>8599
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lefty 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>drawings/painting the ceiling @ GCT
DATE>Jan 23 09:53:10 1998
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Posted by Lefty on January 18, 1998 at 19:35:57:

   how exactly do they go about drawing the outline (which theyre doing
    now) and painting the ceiling at GCT? i didnt see any way that they
    could get up there.. must be a scary job. who is doing it? who is the
    artist? does the piece have a name? and just for kicks whats the
    expected (+ 1 or 2 years) date of completion of construction @ GCT?
    
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NEXT>8555
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>David McCabe 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
DATE>Jan 23 09:53:13 1998
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Posted by David McCabe on January 18, 1998 at 20:20:24:

   
    [This question was inspired by the very cool track maps on this site!]
    
    What connections exist or did exist between the subways and outside
    railroads? Are there any outside of Brooklyn?
    
    I am particularly interested in the connections in the vicinity of the
    9th avenue stop on the Culver line. The maps show an existing
    connection between the NY Cross Harbor RR and the subway track. Does
    this in fact exist? If so, is it used, and what for? If not, what was
    it used for in the past?
    
    How about the famous South Brooklyn Railway? (connects on the east
    side of the 9th Ave. stop). The map detail mentions garbage platforms.
    Is this where all the garbage from the system ends up? Is the SBK
    anything besides a bit of service track on the subway, or is it used
    for freight purposes via some connection to the NYCHRR?
    
    Also, what was the connection between the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch and
    the L line used for? A related question: the "Linden Wye" presumably
    is used for access to the Linden Shops. But if this track is not
    electrified, what are it and the Linden Shops used for? Exclusively
    MOW equipment?
    
    Thanks!
    
    David
    
    (To email remove NOT and dontspamme from my email address!!!!!!!!)
    
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NEXT>8575
PREVIOUS>8439
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Name dropping
DATE>Jan 23 09:53:15 1998
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Posted by Nick on January 18, 1998 at 22:15:33:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Name dropping posted by Peter Rosa on January 16,
    1998 at 12:08:25:
    
    I remember seeing a Yankee Player (can't remember which one) in an
    interview saying that he takes the #4 to work each day.-Nick
    
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NEXT>8521
PREVIOUS>3725
POSTER>Ray O 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Subway Sounds
DATE>Jan 23 09:53:16 1998
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Posted by Ray O on January 18, 1998 at 22:36:02:

   Really miss the sounds of the old IND and BMT cars, the Traction motor
    hums the air compressor pumps, any one know of any sound recordings
    made?
    
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NEXT>8509
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>GarfieldA 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>2 Questions On Rail And Equipment
DATE>Jan 23 09:53:20 1998
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Posted by GarfieldA on January 18, 1998 at 22:43:21:

   I was told by someone that when a subway car does excessive swaying
    from side to side while in motion, it is due to to old and poor track
    and rail conditions. Is this true.
    
    The second. How long do wheels and nearby mechanisms that are ajacent
    to them are replaced. Usually while riding a train, you might hear
    crashing, scraping very loud noises when the motorman operates the
    train at high speeds while going through curves on the line.
    
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NEXT>8601
PREVIOUS>8508
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 2 Questions On Rail And Equipment
DATE>Jan 23 09:53:22 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 18, 1998 at 23:29:36:

   In Reply to: [8]2 Questions On Rail And Equipment posted by GarfieldA
    on January 18, 1998 at 22:43:21:
    
    Could be track or it could be the car. On the car it could be any of
    the following:
    Vertical Shock Absorbers
    Lateral Shock
    Broken or weak springs on the truck (Bolster or Equalizer)
    A shifted bolster or spring plank
    
    As for wheels etc., on NYCT equipment, under normal circumstances,
    wheels & truck equipment have an expected life of 6 years.
    
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NEXT>8512
PREVIOUS>8446
POSTER>jrr178@psu.edu
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Grand Central
DATE>  :: 
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Reply-To: jrr178@psu.edu
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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From what I know, Grand Central has five levels, four that are full size
(the size of the upper level) and one small level at the bottom.  There
are two concourse levels.  The top two levels have track on them, the
other two have utilities.  I think Grand Central has a pumping station
that provides water for surrounding buildings in the area.  There's also
a passage to the Waldorf Astoria hotel from a side track.  The terminal
was originally outdoors before the current day underground terminal was
built.
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POSTER>jrr178@psu.edu
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They cleaned, not painted, the ceiling in GCT.  The workers who cleaned
the cieling used soap and water to clean it.  A huge moving scaffold was
installed - as a part of the cieling was cleaned, the scaffold was
rolled across the cieling.  Currently, a North End Access project is
being built at GCT.  This will connect upper and lower level tracks to
spineways leading to 45 and 47th street entrances.  Passengers can then
enter/exit GCT from the North, and not have to go through at 42nd
Street, Vanderbilt, or Lexington.  The project, which also includes
concourse rennovation and trackwork, should be finishing up by next year
(although look at Penn Station, which took a while, yet it came out
extraordinary)  GCT looked good last time I was there.
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POSTER>jrr178@psu.edu
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References: <6aaaf8$513$1@quartz.quuxuum.org>
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There are five levels in Grand Central Terminal.  There are the upper
two track levels, each having looping track.  Then there are two more
full size levels, which have utilities (I think a pumping station for
buildings in the GCT area) and the fifth level is small.  There is a
track under the Waldorf Astoria with a connection to the hotel.  There
is also a small storage yard on the east side of the terminal (under
Graybar Building).  There are various walkways and storage areas also. 
There is an apartment in Grand Central's SW tower, once used as a Police
dispatch area.  There are also tennis courts in one area, which are
private.  While renovating the terminal, workers uncovered a movie
theatre, with seats and all.  Since it's a National Historic Landmark,
nothing can be immediately torn out.
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POSTER>jrr178@psu.edu
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NJT has been mixing old and new equipment, and Metro North has been
doing this on its diesel hauled lines.  The reasoning is that the older
cars don't have middle double doors, and can't accomodate the
handicapted, so the railroads mix non-center door cars with newer
center-door cars.  This way they don't loose as many seats with the
double door cars.  As far as coupling, I don't think NJT's MU cars
(Arrows) can couple with the push pull Comets, yet Comet push pulls can
all be coupled.  Some early Arrow electrics have been converted to push
pull cabs, and therefore have had coupler conversions.  The switch to
push pull over electric MU?  It's cheaper to run, and more reliable in
the snow.
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POSTER>jrr178@psu.edu
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I don't see the need to connect Penn Station with Grand Central through
Manhattan.  Trains going into Grand Central, which are Metro Norths,
have no need to go to Penn.  They dominate GCT.  It's the other way
around.  The LIRR needs more room, with the ever crampt Penn Station
housing Amtrak, NJT, and LIRR.  The best solution is the GCT tunnel,
currently ending at 63rd Street.  This way LIRR trains from LI could
directly go to GCT, and back to LI.  These trains would have no reason
to go near Penn Station.  LIRR would still go to Penn, though.  A lot of
Long Islanders work near GCT, so it would work out well.  If the Penn to
GCT tunnel was proposed for NJT, that doesn't really suit too well. 
GCT, as big as it is, does face space limitations.  Even MN has had
track shortages, so dumping NJT in there wouldn't help.
	As far as Amtrak to GCT?  Yes, they did run there, until early '90's I
believe.  I went into GCT a few years ago and wondered where Amtrak
was.  When they did run to GCT, they surely used FL9's, which are dual
mode diesels, capable of using top contact or under contact third rail
(same FL9's MN uses, from NYC era).  I'm not positive about this, but I
think the Turboliner may have gone to GCT.  As for overheads, they were
never in GCT.  The only overheads there were at one time over switch
tracks to continue the current lost by third rail gaps.
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POSTER>Nathan 
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SUBJECT>London Underground Signs
DATE>Jan 26 10:27:03 1998
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Posted by Nathan on January 19, 1998 at 02:39:09:

   Ok, I have a problem.
    I have been trying to get my hands on a London Underground station
    sign for AGES. I recently contacted London Transport and they told me
    that surplus signs are AUCTIONED off. Does anyone have any for sale?
    Any info on where I might be able to get one would be greatly
    appreciated.
    
    -Nathan
    
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POSTER>Nathan 
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SUBJECT>Re: Crimes On Transit Systems
DATE>Jan 26 10:27:07 1998
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Posted by Nathan on January 19, 1998 at 02:52:06:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Crimes On Transit Systems posted by Adam on
    January 11, 1998 at 11:42:33:
    
    One other piece of advice- (It may sound a bit paranoid) but if you
    are taking pictures of the subway, try to stand closer to the end of
    the platform- opposite to where the train comes in (the beauty of
    telephoto lenses!). This way, if you're pushed by some psycho the
    train will be either stopped or moving quite slowly, provided it's not
    an express.
    Case in point, in Toronto a few months ago, a woman was standing at
    the
    end of a platform and some freak came up behind her and pushed her as
    the train rushed into the station. Then he just stood there while
    people screamed at him- it was in broad daylight! (she lived but was
    chopped to pieces)
    
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NEXT>8616
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POSTER>Drew M 
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SUBJECT>Re: Grand Central
DATE>Jan 26 10:27:09 1998
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Posted by Drew M on January 19, 1998 at 03:36:57:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Grand Central posted by Philip Nasadowski on
    January 14, 1998 at 18:20:13:
    
    The May 1975 issue of 'TRAINS' has a great article of GCT. It shows
    the "run around track", both concourse levels, and track diagrams. The
    diagrams are not very clear, but helpful.
    Good Luck
    
    
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NEXT>8533
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POSTER>Subman23 
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SUBJECT>Subway Crime Scandal
DATE>Jan 26 10:27:11 1998
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Posted by Subman23 on January 19, 1998 at 07:50:47:

   Below listed taken from New York Post (1/19/98)
    
    NEWS
    
    SUBWAY-CRIME SHOCKER
    
    
    By MURRAY WEISS - Criminal Justice Editor
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    --
    The top NYPD Transit cop is accused of knowing subway crime was being
    underreported - and ordering his commanders to ignore the problem, The
    
    Post has learned.
    Several Transit police officials have told Internal Affairs Division
    investigators that the bureau's chief, Kenneth Donohue, knew subway
    crime statistics were being undercounted and told them "not to worry"
    or
    "correct" the way figures were gathered.
    
    "That is absolutely absurd," the 52-year-old Donohue told The Post.
    
    He insisted that he and his own inspection team discovered the NYPD
    had
    been systematically underestimating subway crime by about 20 percent
    each year, perhaps as far back as the 1960s.
    
    "I was the one who discovered the discrepancy and brought it to the
    attention of the (commissioner's office)," the 33-year veteran Transit
    
    cop maintained.
    
    Donohue said he could "only speculate" that supervisors working underk
    
    him were making allegations against him to deflect blame.
    
    "Perhaps people are grinding an ax or afraid of getting into trouble
    themselves," he said, adding that he will fight any allegations.
    
    "If this allegation can be proven, then I should be fired and I should
    
    have never had the position I have," Donohue said.
    
    If he were fired, it would jeopardize his pension.
    
    Police Commissioner Howard Safir recently revealed underreporting had
    gone on for as long as three decades.
    
    Safir credited the startling undercount to straphangers victimized on
    the subways who reported incidents later to local precincts rather
    than
    to Transit cops.
    
    Those crimes - while recorded in the city's overall statistics - were
    not always reported back to the Transit division.
    
    The scandal unfolded several months ago, when allegations surfaced
    that
    Inspector Vincent DeMarino, a protege of Donohue's, was aware of the
    undercount when DeMarino ran District One in Manhattan and did nothing
    
    about it.
    
    DeMarino, who is the only officer charged thus far in the scandal,
    defended himself, sources say, by telling the IAB he had told Donohue
    of
    the discrepancies and was told to "turn the other cheek" and "forget
    about it."
    
    In addition to DeMarino, IAB has grilled other present and former
    Transit commanders. A number have allegedly pointed the finger at
    Donohue.
    
    "The allegations are patently untrue," Donohue said.
    
    In fact, he said, "If any of the commanders knew there was something
    wrong and I found out ... I would have locked them up myself."
    
    Donohue, who commands both the NYPD's Transit and Traffic divisions,
    insisted that for years, he repeatedly warned his commanders never to
    fudge crime statistics.
    
    "I must have told people 100 times, "Do not play around with crime
    statistics. The worst thing you can do for your career is to mess
    around
    with crime statistics.'"
    
    NYPD officials declined comment, citing the ongoing internal
    investigation, but insiders say the department's top brass hope Chief
    Donohue, who is on sick leave, will quietly retire - to avoid possible
    
    departmental charges.
    
    But Donohue won't go quietly.
    
    "I am not going to put my tail between my legs and run," he declared.
    
    "I am too proud of what I have done, and I will fight tooth and nail."
    
    
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POSTER>Charles Fiori 
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SUBJECT>HORRORS!!!
DATE>Jan 26 10:27:14 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 19, 1998 at 08:30:15:

   Sorry to break it to you guys and gals, but today's NY Daily News has
    a story about 2 gents who are starting this morning on an effort to
    break the record for riding to all stations. Daily News on-line is
    "www.mostnewyork.com" and it is the City Central section.
    
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NEXT>8542
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POSTER>Steve B 
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SUBJECT>Re: Layup Tracks
DATE>Jan 26 10:27:17 1998
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Posted by Steve B on January 19, 1998 at 09:07:59:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Layup Tracks posted by Mike B on January 17, 1998
    at 12:42:16:
    
    Now that you mention it...
    
    I remember taking a "baseball special" back to Manhattan the first
    time I saw the Mets at Shea on 8/1/70. These "baseball specials" must
    have been discontinued after that season. I went to Shea once a year
    for the next few years, always on Saturday, and never saw another
    'baseball special", even though I left right after the game each time.
    Were they in fact discontinued?
    
    And speaking of layups: the center tracks at Dyckman St. on the A line
    are still used to layup trains, although I believe these are access
    tracks to the 207th St yard.
    
    
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NEXT>8522
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POSTER>Charles Fiori 
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SUBJECT>Re: Subway Sounds
DATE>Jan 26 10:27:19 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 19, 1998 at 09:17:03:

   In Reply to: [7]Subway Sounds posted by Ray O on January 18, 1998 at
    22:36:02:
    
    Alan Zelazo, associated with the Trolley Museum in Branford, sells
    audio tapes with the sounds you require. I have bought a few and the
    quality and price are quite reasonable. He also regularly appears at
    the local memorabilia shows, esp. at Liberty State Park. Try the
    museum (maybe someone else on this site can supply the phone number].
    
    
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POSTER>Charles Fiori 
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 19, 1998 at 09:17:29:

   In Reply to: [7]Subway Sounds posted by Ray O on January 18, 1998 at
    22:36:02:
    
    Alan Zelazo, associated with the Trolley Museum in Branford, sells
    audio tapes with the sounds you require. I have bought a few and the
    quality and price are quite reasonable. He also regularly appears at
    the local memorabilia shows, esp. at Liberty State Park. Try the
    museum (maybe someone else on this site can supply the phone number].
    
    
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NEXT>8623
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POSTER>Steve B 
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SUBJECT>Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks
DATE>Jan 26 10:27:25 1998
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Posted by Steve B on January 19, 1998 at 09:29:08:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks posted by Carl
    M. Rabbin on January 16, 1998 at 09:55:28:
    
    Those BMT/IND fluorescent light cars with the round storm door windows
    were the R-16s. And, yes, they did have BMT number markings at that
    time. Funny thing - I rode the R-16s only twice in my life: once in
    Sept. 1967 from Marcy Ave. to Essex St. on a #15; the other time on
    Oct. 1986 on an M from Fulton St. to Essex St. By then, of course, the
    R-16s were falling apart.
    
    One observation: after the Big Change in 1967, through service from
    Broadway-Brooklyn to the Canarsie line was still provided during rush
    hours by the JJ train. I still have a map from that time period - the
    one which showed the NX and RJ routes. After the KK line made its
    debut in July of 1968, this rush hour through service was
    discontinued. So was the JJ. And, for that matter, the NX and RJ.
    
    
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NEXT>8549
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POSTER>Peter Rosa 
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SUBJECT>Re: extension of the S or 7 westward
DATE>Jan 26 10:27:28 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 19, 1998 at 09:44:08:

   In Reply to: [8]extension of the S or 7 westward posted by Lefty on
    January 18, 1998 at 19:32:43:
    
    You're right about the Shuttle - any westward expansion would be
    blocked by the 1/2/3/9 tracks.
    Now the 7 is a different story. Its tracks already run nearly to 8th
    Avenue, abutting the unused lower level of the 42nd Street IND
    station. It therefore might be possible to lessen the long connection
    merely by reconfiguring some of the stairways, with no track expansion
    necessary. But keep in mind that the 7 - A/C/E transfer isn't really
    that long now; transferring from the other Times Square trains
    (especially the N/R) is what really calls for a decent set of hiking
    boots.
    
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POSTER>Alfonso Georeno 
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SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars)
DATE>Jan 26 10:27:30 1998
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Posted by Alfonso Georeno on January 19, 1998 at 10:25:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: SEPTA Question (the MFSE and Subway-Surface Cars)
    posted by Andrew Byler on January 09, 1998 at 13:57:21:
    
    I recall as a boy a Subway/Surface stop at 24th Street, to service the
    old B&O Station. That's probably a little too far west to take care of
    today's Market Street West development.
    
    Al
    
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POSTER>Alfonso Georeno 
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SUBJECT>Re: Phila. Lines and the Underground Passages.
DATE>Jan 26 10:27:33 1998
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Posted by Alfonso Georeno on January 19, 1998 at 10:32:11:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Phila. Lines and the Underground Passages. posted
    by Bobw on January 11, 1998 at 17:17:48:
    
    Unfortunately Congressman Lucian Blackwell's wife has been crusading
    for the "rights" of the "homeless and oppressed" to foul the Spruce
    Street concourse referred to. We used to call it Box City because of
    the shipping crates used by the homeless. You're right, the stench is
    out of this world, to say nothing of the (frequently aggressive)
    panhandling.
    
    Al
    
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NEXT>8541
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POSTER>Alfonso Georeno 
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SUBJECT>Re: The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great
DATE>Jan 26 10:27:36 1998
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Posted by Alfonso Georeno on January 19, 1998 at 10:38:31:

   In Reply to: [8]The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great posted
    by Carl M. Rabbin on January 09, 1998 at 14:30:31:
    
    Carl's probably far too young to remember two other great routes:
    first, the old Red Arrow rail line which went from 69th Street to West
    Chester. A lot of it was single rail and if cars were delayed in one
    direction, the other had to wait at the passing point until things
    were straightened out. Second, and best of all, was the Liberty Bell
    Line from 69th Street to Allentown. This interurban used to give me a
    thrill, cutting as it did through fasrmers fields, etc.
    
    Why did we ever go from rail to bus? (Rhetorical question)
    
    Al
    
    
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NEXT>8532
PREVIOUS>8515
POSTER>steve L 
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SUBJECT>Re: London Underground Signs
DATE>Jan 26 10:27:38 1998
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Posted by steve L on January 19, 1998 at 11:02:14:

   In Reply to: [8]London Underground Signs posted by Nathan on January
    19, 1998 at 02:39:09:
    
    
    did you contact the London Underground Railway Society
    
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POSTER>Dave 
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SUBJECT>Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!!
DATE>Jan 26 10:27:41 1998
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Posted by Dave on January 19, 1998 at 12:07:14:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New Haven Electric Questions!!!!!!! posted by
    Peter Rosa on January 15, 1998 at 09:18:32:
    
    I couldn't find the branch extending Noth from Bridgeport Peter Rosa
    referred to on any of my NH maps. Does anyone have a copy they could
    Xerox or scan and e-mail or send to me?
    
    
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NEXT>8794
PREVIOUS>8321
POSTER>Dan Schwartz 
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SUBJECT>Re: Priorities
DATE>Jan 26 10:27:43 1998
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Posted by Dan Schwartz on January 19, 1998 at 12:35:25:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Priorities posted by Peter Gray on January 12,
    1998 at 21:47:34:
    
    In theory, I agreee with Peter Gray. Private enterprise generally can
    solve problems a lot more efficiently than government agencies can. I
    would like to see a lot less government in all areas of life, and over
    the long haul (a matter of several decades), I believe our society
    will move in that direction. To help bring about that end, I support
    and belong to the Libertarian Party, and urge others to do likewise.
    
    But to get back to the issue at hand, private operation of the East
    River bridges, or of the NYC subway, is just not not something that is
    going to happen any time soon. That is reality, and any proposed
    solution to current problems has to deal with that reality.
    
    The problem with the Manhattan Bridge is basically an engineering
    problem. The bridge was designed poorly for the purpose it needs to
    serve. Trains running on the outside tracks cause torsion, which
    eventually weakens the structure of the bridge. Since
    
    1) it is an engineering problem
    2) people who have a financial incentive are the ones likely to find a
    solution, and
    3) outright sale of the bridge is just not going to happen,
    
    how about this. Let the State of NY hold a contest or competition in
    which any engineering firms would be encouraged to submit proposals.
    Any company which comes up with a workable solution to the problem
    (which so far no one has done) will get a cash prize, and/or a
    contract to implement their solution.
    
    This provides the incentives of market competition while recognizing
    the political realities.
    
    While I am no engineer, it would seem that any proposed solution to
    the problem would have to do one of three things:
    
    1) Replace fixed joints with bearings that will allow the bridge deck
    to rotate slightly as trains go past, without damaging the bridge,
    just as tall buildings are now designed to sway in the wind.
    2) Design some system for distributing the stresses caused by torsion
    forces so that the effects will not cause cumulative damage to the
    bridge, or
    3) Find a way to move the existing tracks to a new location in the
    center of the bridge. The central area would apparently need to be
    widened (at the expense of the outer sections now used for trains) and
    reinforced, and paths for autos to use what remained of the outer
    sections provided when construction was complete.
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>8615
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POSTER>Peter Rosa 
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SUBJECT>Re: Restrooms
DATE>Jan 26 10:27:46 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 19, 1998 at 13:14:06:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Restrooms posted by Joshua Caesar on January 18,
    1998 at 17:06:29:
    
    There are remarkably clean restrooms at the LIRR Flatbush Avenue
    terminal, directly adjacent to the Atlantic-Pacific subway station
    complex. Starting this summer users of the daily/weekly/monthly
    MetroCards will be able to use these restrooms at no cost. Even now,
    the $1.50 cost (for subway riders not beginning or ending their trips
    at A-P) just might be worth it.
    
    BTW, I'm not so sure that the open restrooms at subway terminal
    stations (179, Stilwell, Far Rock etc.) are there for the convenience
    of train crews. Presumably there are employee-only restrooms at many
    other stations.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8528
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: London Underground Signs
DATE>Jan 26 10:27:49 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 19, 1998 at 13:14:30:

   In Reply to: [8]London Underground Signs posted by Nathan on January
    19, 1998 at 02:39:09:
    
    The London Transport Museum sells reproductions of the signs. I have
    one right here. They have small ones and large ones. It's a steel
    plate with enamled front. Mine is just the Underground roundel but
    they also had ones with station names.
    
    The back of the sign has a sticker that says:
    
    This is manufactured in the same materials as the full size
    Underground plates supplied to London Transport by GARNIER & Co. Ltd.,
    37 Strode Rd. London, NW10 2NP. Tel 0181-459-0152
    
    Hope that helps.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8518
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subway Crime Scandal
DATE>Jan 26 10:27:53 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 19, 1998 at 13:25:27:

   In Reply to: [8]Subway Crime Scandal posted by Subman23 on January 19,
    1998 at 07:50:47:
    
    There could be a bright side to all this ... or at least a
    not-completely-dark side. If subway crime statistics have been
    lowballed consistently for the past 20 or so years, then the
    much-publicized recent drop in subway crime rates really did occur
    even though the actual crime numbers (both now and then) are/were
    higher than originally believed.
    
    In addition, there probably is some reason for honest disagreement in
    deciding whether to classify an incident as a subway crime. Some cases
    are clear cut, for example a person attacked while waiying on the
    platform. But consider, for example, a rider followed out of the
    subway and attacked on the street, away from the crowds (I suspect
    this isn't a wholly uncommon scenario). Should that be classified as a
    subway crime? Reasonable minds may differ.
    
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NEXT>8535
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!!
DATE>Jan 26 10:27:56 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 19, 1998 at 14:33:58:

   In Reply to: [8]HORRORS!!! posted by Charles Fiori on January 19, 1998
    at 08:30:15:
    
    [9]Here's the (gasp!) article.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8537
PREVIOUS>8534
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!!
DATE>Jan 26 10:27:59 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 19, 1998 at 15:00:33:

   In Reply to: [8]Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!! posted by Mark S Feinman on
    January 19, 1998 at 14:33:58:
    
    Dunno. The article doesn't quite say that these two plan to ride the
    entire system on a single fare each, so even if they break the record
    it might not count. Besides, let's assume the worst and say that these
    people set a new record ... there'll just be a new record to break.
    
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NEXT>8596
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Is it true that NYCT might add a new bus route between the College of SI
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:04 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Is it true that NYCT might add a new bus route between
    the College of SI & Bay Ridge Brooklyn. posted by Jay on January 17,
    1998 at 14:04:05:
    
    It is not in the current plan for service changes going into effect
    with the March pick. This is a little bit more than a rumor, having
    been proposed over 4 years ago, but nothing much has been done about
    it. TA has been crying poverty in the past, now they would have to
    come up with a new excuse. Among other service changes that are
    planned, an extension of the s59 to serve the college from the
    tottenville end, and alternating rush-hour s53 service along Clove Rd
    and it's current route on B'way. This was a change that occured back
    in 1990 or so, but was changed back due to senior citizen complaints
    of the long walk.
    On another note, DOT needs to find someone who knows how to read and
    draw a map. On the new guide-a-ride maps for the s53, they list a
    transfer to the s72, a route that was eliminated in 1992. This is
    without mentioning that those new 'chic' bus stop signs are totally
    off. Since when does the s79 serve Battery Park City?
    -Hank
    
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NEXT>8538
PREVIOUS>8535
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!!
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:11 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 19, 1998 at 18:54:54:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!! posted by Peter Rosa on
    January 19, 1998 at 15:00:33:
    
    Let's assume they break the old record. . We can break their record.
    if they don't we can learn from their problems. **and overcome**
    
    Thanks for the update
    
    (written as official clerk of *our* subway derby
    
    
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NEXT>8545
PREVIOUS>8537
POSTER>Bob Andersen 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!!
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:13 1998
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Posted by Bob Andersen on January 19, 1998 at 19:02:51:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!! posted by Peter Rosa on
    January 19, 1998 at 15:00:33:
    
    I have a question about setting the record. Do you have to actually
    stop at every station, or is it sufficient just to go through every
    station on an express, where possible
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Wooden Platforms (Was:Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms)
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:15 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 19, 1998 at 21:01:55:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Corrugated Metal Walls On New York El Platforms
    posted by Andrew Huie on January 17, 1998 at 17:59:35:
    
    park Place is mostly plywood over bad wood. Franklin is concrete and
    the closed section of Botanic Garden is decayed wood- you can see
    through the platform(The open section is concrete). Dean
    Street(closed) is all wood
    
    
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NEXT>8546
PREVIOUS>8476
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Electroliner Question
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:18 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 19, 1998 at 21:33:19:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Electroliner Question posted by Alan Follett on
    January 17, 1998 at 15:06:14:
    
    Electroburger????
    
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NEXT>8547
PREVIOUS>8527
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:20 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 19, 1998 at 22:29:18:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great
    posted by Alfonso Georeno on January 19, 1998 at 10:38:31:
    
    Actually, I remember the line down Route 3 to West Chester. I don't
    know if I actually saw trains on it, but the tracks were there in
    1967-8, my freshman year of college. They went down the center island
    of the road.
    
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NEXT>8553
PREVIOUS>8520
POSTER>Mike B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Layup Tracks
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:22 1998
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Posted by Mike B on January 19, 1998 at 22:33:08:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Layup Tracks posted by Steve B on January 19, 1998
    at 09:07:59:
    
    It's been a long time, but I think the last Baseball special I rode
    was in 1972.
    
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NEXT>8551
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lefty 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>read this for lotsa info bout the R142
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:24 1998
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Posted by Lefty on January 19, 1998 at 23:19:24:

   thought i'd share these specifications about the new r142 with
    everyone.. theyre available at the Bombardier website..
    
    General Data
    
    Type of vehicle
    R142 Rapid Transit Car
    Owner
    MTA / NEW YORK CITY
    TRANSIT (MTA / NYCT)
    Date of order
    1997
    Quantity ordered
    680 cars
    Train configuration
    A: cab car (full width cab)
    two motorised bogies
    
    B: non cab car
    one motorised bogie
    
    Base unit:
    A-B-B-B-A
    Base train:
    A-B-B-B-A - A-B-B-B-A
    
    Other train make-ups:
    6 cars (1 unit)
    9 cars (2 units)
    11 cars (2 units)
    Technical Characteristics
    
    Nominal line voltage 600 Vdc
    
    AC traction motor, 150 hp (112 kW) continuous rating, IGBT
    inverters
    
    Stainless steel carbody
    
    Outboard bearing, welded steel frame bogie
    
    Dynamic braking with regeneration and pneumatic friction brake
    system, electronically controlled
    Dimensions and Weight
    
    Length over coupler faces
    15,650 mm / 51' 4"
    Width over side sheets
    2,670 mm / 8' 9"
    Doorway width
    (side - clear opening)
    1,372 mm / 4' 6"
    Wheel diameter
    864 mm / 34"
    Track gauge
    1,435 mm / 4' 8 1/2"
    Average unit car weight (empty)
    31,750 kg / 70,000 lb
    Performance and Capacity
    
    Maximum design speed
    100 km/h / 62 mph
    Seated passengers
    A car: 34
    B car: 40
    Standees
    A car: 148
    B car: 142
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8299
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Unpainted MTA Stainless Steel Subway Car Question
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:26 1998
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Posted by Joe M on January 19, 1998 at 23:28:10:

   In Reply to: [7]Unpainted MTA Stainless Steel Subway Car Question
    posted by Julio Perez on January 13, 1998 at 16:55:22:
    
    I do not have information about the subway paint but a paint job on an
    RTS bus (White with the blue stripe and logo's) is about $4,500 They
    should get complete paint every 5 to 6 years. Some transit systems
    will run a bus for it's entire life without a repaint though. That
    might give you a ball park number.
    
    Does anyone have better numbers for rail cars??
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>8548
PREVIOUS>8538
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!!
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:28 1998
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Posted by Joe M on January 19, 1998 at 23:34:12:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!! posted by subway-buff on
    January 19, 1998 at 18:54:54:
    
    They sound like amatures. I don't think they stand a chance against
    the likes of all or you.
    
    You are right though learn from their mistakes and go for the gold!!
    
    Good luck to you all.
    
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NEXT>8614
PREVIOUS>8540
POSTER>Alan Follett 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Electroliner Question
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:30 1998
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Posted by Alan Follett on January 20, 1998 at 00:58:31:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Electroliner Question posted by Philip Nasadowski
    on January 19, 1998 at 21:33:19:
    
    
    The Electroburger was the featured sandwich in the Electroliners'
    tavern-lounge cars--about a quarter-pound of beef, as I recall. Ad
    copy from the 5/23/54 public timetable:
    
    "TASTY SNACKS
    DELICIOUS BEVERAGES
    
    Appetiazing light breakfasts, luncheons, and dinners--as well as
    liquid refreshments--serveed in the Electroliner Lounge Cars add
    pleasure to your trip between Chicago and Milwaukee. We recommend for
    your enjoyment "the Electroburger"...selected beef tenderloin
    electrically cooked to retain all its delicious flavor...served on a
    tasty roll...with potato chips, crisp crunchy relish and coffee, tea,
    or milk. Try it! It's economical, too."
    
    (The dots were in the original text, and do not represent an
    ellipsis.)
    
    I would like to think that some portion of my present Chestertonian
    girth still owes its origins to the Electroburger.
    
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8541
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:32 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 20, 1998 at 01:25:00:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: The Phila. Rail Transit Lines Really ARE Great
    posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 19, 1998 at 22:29:18:
    
    What Carl saw were the former West Chester/Ardmore tracks west on West
    Chester Pike. By 1967 the tracks were there only to provide access to
    the Llanerch Car house of PST. By the time of the SEPTA takeover in
    1969-70 PST was attempting to sell the property and SEPTA only had a
    month-to-month lease on the facility. By 1972 the streetcars were in a
    new home in the 69th Street El yard, where they (and the 1981
    Kawawsaki replacements) have remained to this day.
    
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NEXT>8568
PREVIOUS>8545
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!!
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:34 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 20, 1998 at 01:32:48:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!! posted by Joe M on January
    19, 1998 at 23:34:12:
    
    Thanks! I don't think that we have anything to worry about! We can
    beat any record those guys make, if any!
    
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NEXT>8552
PREVIOUS>8524
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: extension of the S or 7 westward
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:36 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 20, 1998 at 01:38:15:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: extension of the S or 7 westward posted by Peter
    Rosa on January 19, 1998 at 09:44:08:
    
    Has anyone ever thought of extending the #7 by connecting its tracks
    with the tracks in the lower level of 42nd and then running the 7
    through Manhattan and into Brooklyn possibly? I think this would be an
    attractive route for commuters from Queens and would reduce the number
    of train transfers for a lot of people.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Nathan 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: London Underground Signs (Stupid Me!)
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:37 1998
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Posted by Nathan on January 20, 1998 at 01:40:28:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: London Underground Signs posted by David Pirmann
    on January 19, 1998 at 13:14:30:
    
    Oh my god- I have one of those mini signs too but never bothered
    checking the back...
    
    Thanx!
    
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NEXT>8570
PREVIOUS>8543
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:39 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 20, 1998 at 01:55:13:

   In Reply to: [8]read this for lotsa info bout the R142 posted by Lefty
    on January 19, 1998 at 23:19:24:
    
    Oooo... that's the IRT order, right???
    Is anyone here _NOT_ surprised by _outboard_ bearings??
    
    
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NEXT>8562
PREVIOUS>8549
POSTER>Steve B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: extension of the S or 7 westward
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:42 1998
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Posted by Steve B on January 20, 1998 at 08:27:55:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: extension of the S or 7 westward posted by Adam on
    January 20, 1998 at 01:38:15:
    
    I can see one problem right away: since IRT cars are narrower than
    IND/BMT cars, you'd have an unsafe gap between the platform edge and
    the side of a 7 train once it started running on the IND portion of
    such a connection. Gap fillers would have to be installed at IND
    stations, similar to what they have at Union Square and South Ferry.
    Come to think of it, if the 2nd Ave. line is ever built, and if it
    does get tied in with any IRT lines in the Bronx as originally
    planned, you'd be looking at the same scenario (not to mention shaving
    back platforms).
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8542
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Layup Tracks
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:45 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 20, 1998 at 08:33:29:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Layup Tracks posted by Steve B on January 19, 1998
    at 09:07:59:
    
    I can remember when I worked for the TA in the early 80s, I had a copy
    of the special schedule set up to accomodate Jets fans. I can always
    remember going to Mets games, or watching on TV, the line of trains
    parked on the "M" track between Willets Point and Main St. That was
    well after the early 70s.
    
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NEXT>8584
PREVIOUS>8497
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The "Line by Line" Posts:Flushing
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:46 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 20, 1998 at 08:35:46:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: The "Line by Line" Posts:Flushing posted by
    Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 18, 1998 at 04:12:08:
    
    I will take any info you can provide, Ben-Zion. I may get started this
    week as I have a few days off...
    
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NEXT>8556
PREVIOUS>8505
POSTER>Lou from Middletown 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:49 1998
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Posted by Lou from Middletown on January 20, 1998 at 09:22:36:

   In Reply to: [7]Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
    posted by David McCabe on January 18, 1998 at 20:20:24:
    
    There are a couple of places where connections COULDbe made betwen
    subway and regular rr's, but there are none currently in place. 1)
    There is a place at Grand Central where there was planned a connection
    between the lower level of GCT and the IRT original line. The rumor
    has it that such a connection once did exist, being only used by
    August Belmont the original owner of the IRT. 2) The same goes at
    Atlantic Ave in Brooklyn-this would have used by Mr.Belmont to go to
    his race track (he was also a big LIRR stockholder!) There once was a
    connection between the LIRR and the BMT Broadway-Brooklyn line, so
    through trains could run to the Rockaways via the old LIRR line-I
    believe you can still see evidence of the connection today!! If I've
    made any mistakes in the above, someone please let me know!!
    
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NEXT>8557
PREVIOUS>8555
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:53 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 20, 1998 at 10:34:00:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
    posted by Lou from Middletown on January 20, 1998 at 09:22:36:
    
    There is some question as to whether Belmont's IRT-LIRR connection at
    Atlantic Avenue was ever used. The trackway itself is in plain sight,
    at the north end of the Manhattan-bound 2,3 platform, though there
    seems to be some construction work in the area.
    
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NEXT>8561
PREVIOUS>8556
POSTER>si2000 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:56 1998
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Posted by si2000 on January 20, 1998 at 10:38:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
    posted by David McCabe on January 18, 1998 at 20:20:24:
    
    There is a railroad connection to the subway system west of the 9th
    Avenue station near 4th Avenue. The one track comes from 2nd Avenue
    near 39th Street, passes around the Price Club parking lot, crosses
    3rd Avenue, then proceeds down into the 'Culver' cut. There is a
    standard r/y/g/ signal at the point where this one track enters the
    system. The connection is visible from 3rd Avenue at 39th Street, or
    from the BQE 39th Street exit. I have never seen any activity on this
    link, but it must be used occasionally because the track was
    re-located and fenced-in at the time of the Price Club's construction
    in 1997.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: London Underground Signs: Over-the-Door line maps
DATE>Jan 26 10:28:58 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 20, 1998 at 11:54:14:

   In Reply to: [7]London Underground Signs posted by Nathan on January
    19, 1998 at 02:39:09:
    
    In 1980 when I was in London, the Underground shop at Covent Garden
    was selling the strip map that would be posted over the train door for
    the Bakerloo line. Why? Because the Jubilee Line had opened a year
    before replacing half the Bakerloo route, so the old Bakerloo maps
    were obsolete, and they had extra maps for that old routing. The maps
    were about 4 inches wide and 4 feet long.
    
    Anyway, the now 20-year old Jubilee line is to be extended in October,
    and maybe extra obsolete Jubilee line maps will be available for sale
    one year from now.
    
    I once had the strip map for the #7 Flushing line that they put over
    the doors during the World's Fair. But I had it in the trunk of my car
    for a while when I was moving and it was raining and it got soaked and
    shredded. (Can you believe that that happened to me in 1975 and I
    haven't forgotten it?)
    
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NEXT>8565
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connections South Brooklyn Railway
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:00 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 20, 1998 at 12:08:27:

   In Reply to: [7]Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
    posted by David McCabe on January 18, 1998 at 20:20:24:
    
    The South Brooklyn Railway, I believe, used to run (or maybe still
    does run) from 9th Avenue under the old Culver line next to 37th St.
    to McDonald Avenue then in the center of McDonald Avenue all the way
    down to Coney Island. It was used so seldom that the men in my
    neighborhood played bocci ball using the tracks as borders for the
    playing area (the 37 St. section just before the turn to McDonald
    Avenue).
    
    The McDonald Avenue tracks were definitely for freight railroad cars,
    not trolleys, because while trolley rails in streets have the outside
    side with a flat metal extension and the inside side not having the
    flat extensio, the McDonald Avenue tracks had a flat extension on both
    sides. (I don't know why since the flange goes in the groove and the
    wheel rests on the outside only, anyway.)
    
    Driving on McDonald Avenue was not easy: the elevated railroad was
    above with the pillars between the right and center lanes on both
    sides. It was hard, especially on rainy days, to drive easily
    alongside the pillars because the slippery railroad tracks were right
    where you wanted to put the wheels. I don't know if those tracks are
    still there, since I don't get to McDonald Avenue in Brooklyn that
    much anymore. But if they are still there and if you want to give
    yourself a headache, try to drive more than 3 avenues with the pillars
    and tracks, then see if you don't need a couple of Advils quick.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8502
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 4 train- Bronx Mosaics
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:03 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 20, 1998 at 12:17:33:

   In Reply to: [8]4 train- Bronx Mosaics posted by subway-buff on
    January 17, 1998 at 19:00:16:
    
    > I also found what appears to be a new tunnel turning Southeastward
    from
    > the Brooklyn bound 3 track at Utica. It is just past the crossover.
    Does
    > anyone know if this was for a future connection.
    
    This sounds like the IRT started doing some small prep work for the
    planned extension of the IRT down Utica Avenue to Avenue U, an
    expansion which never occured.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8574
PREVIOUS>8557
POSTER>Larry Littlefield 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:06 1998
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Posted by Larry Littlefield on January 20, 1998 at 12:47:35:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
    posted by si2000 on January 20, 1998 at 10:38:24:
    
    The TA uses the SBRWY link to the 9th Avenue Yard to receive
    construction materials and train delivered by ship or barge. For
    example, the trains shipped up to M/K in Hornell for rebuilding were
    barged across the harbor then put on trains through Port Jervis to
    upstate New York. I saw some subway cars going by on flatcars once on
    a Delaware River canoe trip.
    
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NEXT>8563
PREVIOUS>8552
POSTER>sdc-foti 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: extension of the S or 7 westward
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:08 1998
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Posted by sdc-foti on January 20, 1998 at 12:51:38:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: extension of the S or 7 westward posted by Adam on
    January 20, 1998 at 01:38:15:
    
    Yah, Sounds good,
    create a Chinatown to Chinatown Express
    Pass Manhattan Chinatown and go to Brooklyn Chinatoen at Boro park.
    
    What a grand idea do all your shopping, for a $6.25 fare.
    
    Sherman Cheung
    
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NEXT>8564
PREVIOUS>8562
POSTER>sdc-foti 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: extension of the S or 7 westward
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:10 1998
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Posted by sdc-foti on January 20, 1998 at 12:52:01:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: extension of the S or 7 westward posted by Adam on
    January 20, 1998 at 01:38:15:
    
    Yah, Sounds good,
    create a Chinatown to Chinatown Express
    Pass Manhattan Chinatown and go to Brooklyn Chinatoen at Boro park.
    
    What a grand idea do all your shopping, for a $6.25 fare.
    
    Sherman Cheung
    
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NEXT>8567
PREVIOUS>8563
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: extension of the S or 7 westward
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:11 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 20, 1998 at 14:01:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: extension of the S or 7 westward posted by Adam on
    January 20, 1998 at 01:38:15:
    
    Connecting the 7 with the 8th Avenue IND line would be impossible (or
    at least highly impractical) given the different equipment sizes.
    
    Now, extending the 7 to the Javits Center, *that* would be an
    excellent and probably reasonably priced idea ...
    
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NEXT>8587
PREVIOUS>8559
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connections South Brooklyn Railway
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:14 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 20, 1998 at 14:05:33:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections South Brooklyn Railway posted by Carl
    M. Rabbin on January 20, 1998 at 12:08:27:
    
    Fortunately (or _un_fortunately, depending on whether one's
    perspective is that of a driver or rail fan), the tracks on McDonald
    Avenue have faded off into the annals of history.
    
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NEXT>8586
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:18 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on January 20, 1998 at 15:16:56:

   Reading [8]NYC Transit Subway Service Notices it appears as though one
    can have a rare trip across Hammel's Wye on the Rockaways:
    
    Rockaway Park Shuttle not running to/from Broad Channel
    
    Weekend, 10 am to 6 pm Sun, Jan 25.
    For Manhattan service, take the S to Beach 67 St and transfer to the
    A. For service to Rockaway Park, take the A to Beach 67 St and
    transfer to the S.
    
    By the way, I am planning to take the Transit Museum's tour of "Day
    One on the IRT" (no connection to the above Hammel's Wye!) this
    Saturday (weather permitting!). Are any other SubTalkers going to be
    there?
    
    -Todd
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8564
POSTER>Chris C 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: extension of the S or 7 westward
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:21 1998
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Posted by Chris C on January 20, 1998 at 17:29:33:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: extension of the S or 7 westward posted by Steve B
    on January 20, 1998 at 08:27:55:
    
    They should send the #7 west with a stop at 9th or even 10th Ave.
    Before having it turn South stopping at the Javits center on its way
    to World Trade or possibly Battery Park city.
    
    What if the #7 turned south at 11th Ave and the L Train turned north
    along
    10th Ave connecting with the #7 at 10th Ave and 42nd Street???
    Each could stop on opposite sides of the Javits Center.
    
    
    Or What if the #7 went south along 10th or 11th Aves and the L was
    extended west on 14th street to make a connection????
    
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NEXT>8572
PREVIOUS>8548
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!!
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:23 1998
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Posted by Nick on January 20, 1998 at 18:04:15:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!! posted by Adam on January
    20, 1998 at 01:32:48:
    
    Don't worry about a thing, guys (and gals). We can definitly beat any
    record set, 'cause we will be well prepared, and get the job done
    right. I wonder if these 2 fellows stole our idea from visiting
    Subtalk. By the way, it is crucial that we stop at every
    station...going through it on an express does not count.-Nick
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>1 Train
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:25 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 20, 1998 at 18:45:58:

   I have now been given the go ahead by Dave to do the 1 train. ANy
    info, pictures, etc. would be appreciated. I will cover all stops,
    local and express from South Ferry (inner and outer) to VCP, and omit
    Lenox.
    
    I also will do the balance of Lex- covering Local stops from BB to
    116.
    (125 is covered in Express. Stops after 125 will be the Pelham
    person's )
    
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NEXT>8571
PREVIOUS>8551
POSTER>Allan 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:27 1998
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Posted by Allan on January 20, 1998 at 19:17:21:

   In Reply to: [8]read this for lotsa info bout the R142 posted by Lefty
    on January 19, 1998 at 23:19:24:
    
    Please provide the URL for the Bombardier Website
    
    
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NEXT>8573
PREVIOUS>8570
POSTER>wsteil 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:28 1998
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Posted by wsteil on January 20, 1998 at 19:22:28:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142 posted by
    Allan on January 20, 1998 at 19:17:21:
    
    http://www.Bombardier.com
    
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NEXT>8600
PREVIOUS>8568
POSTER>Joshua Caesar 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!!
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:30 1998
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Posted by Joshua Caesar on January 20, 1998 at 19:27:19:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!! posted by Nick on January
    20, 1998 at 18:04:15:
    
    Since each station must be stopped at, and going through on the
    express does not count, does the express then need to be taken aswell?
    For example, if a G or R was taken from Queens Plaza to Continental
    Avenue, would an express train also need to ridden over that route?
    
    Joshua Caesar
    
    
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NEXT>8583
PREVIOUS>8571
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:32 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 20, 1998 at 20:11:09:

   In Reply to: [8]read this for lotsa info bout the R142 posted by Lefty
    on January 19, 1998 at 23:19:24:
    
    I posted this text into a new R142 page,
    [9]http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r142.html.
    
    P.S. what's an outboard bearing?
    
    -Dave
    
    
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NEXT>8576
PREVIOUS>8561
POSTER>Daniel 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:35 1998
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Posted by Daniel on January 20, 1998 at 20:48:12:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
    posted by Lou from Middletown on January 20, 1998 at 09:22:36:
    
    Where was this connection of the Broadway-Brooklyn line (J,Z) to the
    old Bay Ridge Branch of the LIRR? Are you referring to the massive
    complex at Atlantic Avenue on the L line, where the old Pitkin Avenue
    el use to turn from Fulton Street stop at the massive Atlantic Avenue
    station, and continue its journey along Pitkin Ave. to the then-city
    line?
    
    Just curious...
    
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NEXT>8603
PREVIOUS>8506
POSTER>Daniel 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Name dropping
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:38 1998
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Posted by Daniel on January 20, 1998 at 21:01:39:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Name dropping posted by Nick on January 18, 1998
    at 22:15:33:
    
    If you want name dropping, I've seen John Olerud take the #7 out to
    Shea... The way I knew it was him was when he got off the train at
    Shea, and dropped something as he went downstairs: HIS GLOVE!! It was
    really early in the day (about 9:30am), and the game was to be at
    1pm...
    
    Note: Although I live in Jersey, I just so happened to be on the train
    going to Shea to see if I could get autographs...
    
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NEXT>8578
PREVIOUS>8574
POSTER>Joshua Caesar 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:41 1998
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Posted by Joshua Caesar on January 20, 1998 at 22:00:17:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
    posted by Larry Littlefield on January 20, 1998 at 12:47:35:
    
    That must be a pretty cool sight. I know this one spot on the Delaware
    ( I can't remember the name, it is a bit upstream from Mattamoras, and
    another river flows in right there) where there is a huge retaining
    wall in the mountain, right against the river. If you go to the shore
    of the beach on the other side of the river, you can watch trains as
    they go by, all the way on top of that big old wall. It is kinda neat.
    I guess I have strayed a little bit off topic for Subtalk, hope no one
    will hold it against me.
    
    
    Josh Caesar
    
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NEXT>8582
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: memorabilia
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:43 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on January 20, 1998 at 22:34:23:

   In Reply to: [7]memorabilia posted by tom vicinanza on January 20,
    1998 at 19:56:22:
    
    Right now, I am looking for old Public Service bus timetables, and
    photographs of NJ Transit GMC Fishbowls and Flxible New Looks. Any
    ideas on where I might be able to find these things?
    
    
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NEXT>8581
PREVIOUS>8576
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:45 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 20, 1998 at 22:42:57:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
    posted by Daniel on January 20, 1998 at 20:48:12:
    
    The connection actually was from the L, between Broadway Junction and
    Canarsie. It's been only partially removed and probably could be
    reactivated with a relatively minor amount of effort.
    
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NEXT>8580
PREVIOUS>8411
POSTER>Bryan Layne 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: About Grand CEntral
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:48 1998
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Posted by Bryan Layne on January 20, 1998 at 22:56:08:

   In Reply to: [7]About Grand CEntral posted by Larry on January 15,
    1998 at 20:07:23:
    
    
    Moles.
    
    watch the movie "Mimic"
    
    its a labrynth down there.The whole island of Manhatten is a flippen
    underworld.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8579
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: About Grand CEntral
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:51 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 20, 1998 at 23:01:43:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: About Grand CEntral posted by Bryan Layne on
    January 20, 1998 at 22:56:08:
    
    Yeah but as we've talked about in previous threads, "Mimic" was filmed
    in Toronto and on sets. :-)
    
    -Dave
    
    
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NEXT>8591
PREVIOUS>8578
POSTER>Mellow One 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:54 1998
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Posted by Mellow One on January 20, 1998 at 23:15:51:

   In Reply to: [8]Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
    posted by David McCabe on January 18, 1998 at 20:20:24:
    
    There were a couple of ancient connections with the NY Els.
    One was the connection between the New York & Northern at 155th St at
    the Polo Grounds.
    The Other was the ramp from the 3rd Ave El to the NYNY&H Harlem River
    terminal in the Bronx.
    Moving forward in time, there was the joint LIRR/BRT operation to
    Rockaway.
    The IRT Dyre Ave line was connected to the NYNY&H on the former NYW&B
    row.
    
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NEXT>8627
PREVIOUS>8577
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: memorabilia
DATE>Jan 26 10:29:57 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 21, 1998 at 00:32:44:

   In Reply to: [8]memorabilia posted by tom vicinanza on January 20,
    1998 at 19:56:22:
    
    Do you know where to get stuff? I am interested in buying signs from
    the subway. I would also recommend that you check TransitAds, a site
    that is devoted to the buying and selling and trading of
    transit-related items. I forgot the URL but it's linked from this
    site.
    
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NEXT>8856
PREVIOUS>8573
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142
DATE>Jan 26 10:30:05 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 21, 1998 at 00:50:13:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142 posted by
    David Pirmann on January 20, 1998 at 20:11:09:
    
    In other words, the axle is supported outside the wheel, like current
    subway stuff. Inboard bearings have the axle's bearings inside
    (between the wheels). Check out any recent NJT, Metro-North, LIRR,
    Septic, etc stuff. The big advantage (besides sexier looks), is
    supposed lighter weight, and I'm assuming that includes unsprung
    weight too. They have been tested on the subway, and R-46 had them,
    but they don't seem to hold up well in NY's system. I'm sure you've at
    least heard of the R-46's problems. I think GSI-70s, Pioneer, and one
    or two others were tested. The LIRR / Metro-North use Pioneer III
    trucks on their MUs, BTW. I think Septa and NJT do too..
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8554
POSTER>Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The "Line by Line" Posts:Flushing
DATE>Jan 26 10:30:33 1998
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Posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 21, 1998 at 02:29:06:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: The "Line by Line" Posts:Flushing posted by
    Charles Fiori on January 20, 1998 at 08:35:46:
    
    I EMailed you old QP track maps, which I must thank Steve (he of "D")
    for.
    
    A study of the maps will reveal why the BMT ran a loop (alternating)
    service to Astoria and Flushing. I found out doing a Bahn layout that
    without switchbacks in the thick of the busy station-area tracks, it
    would be impossible to do separate services.
    
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Strip maps
DATE>Jan 26 10:30:35 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 21, 1998 at 07:25:36:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: London Underground Signs: Over-the-Door line maps
    posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 20, 1998 at 11:54:14:
    
    Carl, I hit the store, too, when I was in London in 1982. My wife, in
    a moment of weakness, had some of the strip maps foam-backed so they
    would display nicely. I have one copy each from the orange "7" strip
    map, as well as the purple one. They are not in the best of shape, but
    not too bad.
    
    
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NEXT>8588
PREVIOUS>8566
POSTER>aaron 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye
DATE>Jan 26 10:30:41 1998
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Posted by aaron on January 21, 1998 at 08:53:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye posted by Todd Glickman
    on January 20, 1998 at 15:16:56:
    
    If you take the trip who is going to do the weekend weather on WCBS?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8565
POSTER>si2000 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connections South Brooklyn Railway
DATE>Jan 26 10:30:44 1998
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Posted by si2000 on January 21, 1998 at 09:03:36:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections South Brooklyn Railway posted by Carl
    M. Rabbin on January 20, 1998 at 12:08:27:
    
    The SBRWY stopped using the tracks in early 1978. For some reason the
    tracks remained even after McDonald Avenue was re-constructed later
    that year, with the tracks at the LIRR overpass near Elmwood Avenue
    being removed as part of the project. The tracks were finally paved
    over in 1991(?). You can still see the one track coming out of the
    LIRR cut at Avenue I, a remnant of a junction which I remember being
    used to deliver the R46s back in 1975, along McDonlad Avenue to Avenue
    X.
    
    
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NEXT>8592
PREVIOUS>8586
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye
DATE>Jan 26 10:30:51 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on January 21, 1998 at 09:08:32:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye posted by aaron on
    January 21, 1998 at 08:53:24:
    
    If the weather is good, I can leave tapes that play during the trip.
    Otherwise, I might be able to get one of my colleagues to fill in for
    a few hours. Here's a broadcating secret: If you hear me give the
    current temperature, I'm "live." If you hear the news anchor give the
    current temperature, I'm "on tape." Sometimes I can leave WCBS (of
    course by the E/F at 53rd/5th and go to the Q33 at Roosevelt, to LGA,
    then to BOS via Shuttle, and then MBTA blue and green lines to get my
    car and STILL hear my tapes via long distance :-)
    
    And THAT'S traffic and weather together....
    
    Todd
    
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NEXT>8593
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: extension of the 7 west and south
DATE>Jan 26 10:30:57 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 21, 1998 at 09:41:50:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: extension of the S or 7 westward posted by Chris C
    on January 20, 1998 at 17:29:33:
    
    That is a really great idea. Too bad I don't work for the MTA.
    
    Not only would it connect with the Javits Center and with the
    apartment buildings in Chelsea, but it would provide service to all
    the hotels along 42 St west of 8th Avenue that tourists stay at
    because they have famous hotel chain names, then discover that 1) you
    always have to take a bus or taxi to get anywhere, and 2)it's too
    devoid of crowds to want stand in the street and do just that.
    
    Also it would get people closer to the "Intrepid" museum and the
    Circle Boat line. And the construction would be where there are fewer
    buildling anyway.
    
    The negatives are 1) it might be too close to the water and the
    tunnels would have to be under 10th Avenue and be quite low down. 2)it
    would have to go under the Lincoln Tunnel.
    
    I say "Do it." :-)
    
    
    
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NEXT>8598
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lefty 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142 (who's building the R143?)
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:00 1998
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Posted by Lefty on January 21, 1998 at 10:14:42:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142 posted by
    David Pirmann on January 20, 1998 at 20:11:09:
    
    i see all this stuff bout the R142 on the bombardier website but what
    about the R143, is that contract still undecided or something?
    
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NEXT>8608
PREVIOUS>8581
POSTER>Lefty 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:04 1998
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Posted by Lefty on January 21, 1998 at 10:23:33:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
    posted by Joshua Caesar on January 20, 1998 at 22:00:17:
    
    strangely enough i know exactly what youre talking about.. right
    across from that huge retaining wall there is a summer camp called
    "Tel Yehuda" where i went for 5 years.. always during the activities i
    would watch trains pass by (they were very frequent, good for a
    railfan).. the best thing about the camp was that when you are at the
    oldest age in the camp (17) you live in a bunk called HillHouse,
    because its at the highest elevation in the camp, and being so, has
    the best view of the tracks across the delaware! i loved living
    there..
    
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NEXT>8606
PREVIOUS>8588
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:06 1998
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on January 21, 1998 at 10:37:45:

   In Reply to: [7]Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye posted by Todd Glickman
    on January 20, 1998 at 15:16:56:
    
    Just yesterday I took a trip out to Rockaway Park, first time in years
    on the A train in Queens. I didn't get a headend ride since all I had
    was R44's (not enough time to wait for a set of the older ones). I
    love riding over the water. Watched a dual parallel landing of a 747
    and 767 at JFK, sure was pretty.
    Saw the wye, don't know if I can make it out there next weekend...
    
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NEXT>8594
PREVIOUS>8589
POSTER>Chris C. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: extension of the 7 west and south
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:08 1998
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Posted by Chris C. on January 21, 1998 at 10:44:31:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: extension of the 7 west and south posted by Carl
    M. Rabbin on January 21, 1998 at 09:41:50:
    
    It might be a problem crossing the Penn lines, but there might also be
    an advantage. There is already a cut between 9th and 10th Aves where
    the old New York Central Ran. I believe that Amtrac uses some of the
    tracks now, but there is lots of room. Quasi-elevated tracks could
    cross the Penn Train yards behind Madison Square Garden. What if this
    was used to send the #7 down to Batery Park City and at the same time
    send the L, on the opposite platform up the cut to 42nd, 59th, 72nd
    and express under Riverside park to 125th and beyond. The tracks and
    the right-of-way run all the way up to Albany. Westsiders and
    Washington Heights would love an express that went
    72nd-125th-168th-Riverdale. Transfer tunnels could link the 1/9 along
    the way. Crossing the fault at 125th would not be a problem either
    because at that point the tracks are far enough west that a crossover
    would not block traffic. Did I mention that the cut for the tracks is
    already there???
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>8605
PREVIOUS>8593
POSTER>Blaise 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: extension of the 7 west and south
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:10 1998
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Posted by Blaise on January 21, 1998 at 10:54:02:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: extension of the 7 west and south posted by Carl
    M. Rabbin on January 21, 1998 at 09:41:50:
    
    How about running the & train west right under the Hudson River to
    Weehawken, Union City, Secaucus, Medowlands Sports Complex, Passaic,
    and Paterson? It would connect with the Hudson - Bergen LRT, giving
    that line a one stop connection to midtown.
    
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NEXT>8597
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connections NYC Subway & Price Club & NYCHRR
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:12 1998
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on January 21, 1998 at 10:56:17:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
    posted by si2000 on January 20, 1998 at 10:38:24:
    
    This was a major hangup to the construction of the Price Club on Third
    Ave in brooklyn. The old tracks ran straight through the old Davidson
    Pipe Company yard. SBRR had right of way, and Davidson just had to
    keep the tracks clear.
    When Davidson closed up and sold the property to CostCo/Price Club
    CostCo had to pay for the reallignment of the tracks to the outside
    edge of the property. This is kinda funny compared to the condition of
    the rail accross Third Ave and into the system. I don't know if the
    new construction used 100lb rail, I have yet to visit the sight.
    (This is as per an ex-purchasing agent from Davidson).
    On another note, New York Cross Harbor was/is in a lot of trouble with
    the IRS, at one point they were going to seeze the engines/tugboat but
    I don't know what happened with that.
    (From an Ex-Revenue Officer IRS)
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8536
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Is it true that NYCT might add a new bus route between the College of SI
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:14 1998
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   In Reply to: [7]Re: Is it true that NYCT might add a new bus route
    between the College of SI & Bay Ridge Brooklyn. posted by Hank
    Eisenstein on January 19, 1998 at 18:50:27:
    
    Those guide a ride on the new bus stop signs have also been installed
    in the wrong direction on the B64 route in Brooklyn.
    I take the B64 to the S79 to get back to Staten Island, Coney
    Island/Stillwell Ave bus maps are on the BayRidge side of the road!!!
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8595
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connections NYC Subway & Price Club & NYCHRR
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:16 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 21, 1998 at 11:53:00:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections NYC Subway & Price Club & NYCHRR
    posted by Lou from Brooklyn on January 21, 1998 at 10:56:17:
    
    If 100-lb. rail means standard main-line rail, then the tracks around
    the Price Club probably would qualify. I explored the area about a
    year ago, and there didn't seem to be anything unusual about the track
    (besides, of course, its newness).
    You are completely right about the contrast between the new track and
    the other tracks in the area. While the track crossing Third Avenue
    from the yard was reasonably intact, I could not say the same for the
    track to the west of the Price Club, crossing Second Avenue. That
    track certainly looked abandoned; at one point in the street crossing
    there was a hardened asphalt spill filling the groove, that looked
    like it had been there (and trains *hadn't* been there) in quite some
    time.
    It doesn't look likely that any subway rolling stock will be passing
    that way again, even disregarding the NYCH's woes, at least without
    some major track repairs. Presumably, all future deliveries of subway
    rolling stock will use flatbed trucks.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8590
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142 (who's building the R143?)
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:18 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 21, 1998 at 11:58:38:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142 (who's
    building the R143?) posted by Lefty on January 21, 1998 at 10:14:42:
    
    No contracts have been let for (what will presumably be called) the
    R143 yet.
    
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NEXT>8602
PREVIOUS>8504
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: drawings/painting the ceiling @ GCT
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:20 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 12:29:21:

   In Reply to: [7]drawings/painting the ceiling @ GCT posted by Lefty on
    January 18, 1998 at 19:35:57:
    
    Are you refering to the painting of the Stellar Constellations on the
    ceiling of the main waiting room? If so, it would be interesting to
    know if they are restoring the original (which was mistakenly painted
    as a mirror image), or correcting that historic error. It hardly
    matters now that the night sky cannot be adequately viewed in any
    major city! I would imagine the artists work from scaffolding, but if
    you don't see any, perhaps they work from a cherry picker type of
    device. Look for likely equipment parked in a sparsely used part of
    the terminal floor.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8572
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!!
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:22 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 12:42:32:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Oh no!! Re: HORRORS!!! posted by subway-buff on
    January 19, 1998 at 18:54:54:
    
    Good attitude! One would think that the recent overpromotion of the
    abortive 'round the world hot air baloon adventurers would discourage
    advance publicity seekers! Don't make the same mistake yourselves;
    wait until you succeed to publish your accomplishments, including, if
    necessary, that the old record is unassailable under present schedules
    and routes. There is no shame in that, if it was a well planned try!
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8509
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 2 Questions On Rail And Equipment
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:25 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 13:04:13:

   In Reply to: [7]2 Questions On Rail And Equipment posted by GarfieldA
    on January 18, 1998 at 22:43:21:
    
    The type of motion you describe is officially called "hunting", and
    can eventually be quite damaging to running gear. It usually requires
    underguage wheelsets and/or overguage track to get started. Both
    measurements need to be maintained, as normal tendencies are to spread
    track guage and reduce the distance between wheels. The old (pre 1960)
    IRT cars were notorious for hideous noise caused by slamming of
    hunting flanges against the running rails at speed. Flanges are
    supposed to be a backup device; the slope of the wheel is supposed to
    keep the truck centered on the track without flange to rail contact.
    Thus broken flanges are an indication of lack of track maintenance in
    general. It would be interesting to see if records of broken flange
    rates are kept for years past.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8599
POSTER>ed 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: drawings/painting the ceiling @ GCT
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:27 1998
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Posted by ed on January 21, 1998 at 13:16:55:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: drawings/painting the ceiling @ GCT posted by Gary
    Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 12:29:21:
    
    For painting the ceiling with the constellations, they used this huge
    arch-shaped scaffold that gradually moved east-to-west across the
    room. When one section was finished, they moved it on to the next
    section, and you could see the work in progress by comparing one side
    to the other.
    
    The original, more detailed, ceiling from the original terminal is
    still underneath the present ceiling which was painted on panels that
    were nailed to the ceiling in the 1940's. A study was done to see if
    they should go whole hog and take the panels off and restore the
    original 1912 ceiling, but there was damage to the original, and there
    were asbestos problems, too. So, the later ceiling is the one that's
    restored.
    
    As for correcting the "historical error," GCT is a declared NYC
    landmark, and that kind of alteration wouldn't be possible under the
    landmarks preservation law.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8575
POSTER>stan 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Name dropping
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:29 1998
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Posted by stan on January 21, 1998 at 13:22:38:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Name dropping posted by Nick on January 18, 1998
    at 22:15:33:
    
    I remember I lived on the same block as Mickey Rivers in The Bronx
    when he was with the Yankees (Eastburn Ave.), and he took the "D"
    train down to the ballpark.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Unofficial Time
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:31 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 21, 1998 at 13:30:13:

   In Reply to: [8]HORRORS!!! posted by Charles Fiori on January 19, 1998
    at 08:30:15:
    
    I heard this morning that the unofficial time for the 2 guys that
    attempted to break the record yesterday (1/20/98) was 25 hours 11
    minutes, pending Guinness approval/validation of the time.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8610
PREVIOUS>8594
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: extension of the 7 west and south
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:35 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 21, 1998 at 13:48:31:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: extension of the 7 west and south posted by Carl
    M. Rabbin on January 21, 1998 at 09:41:50:
    
    The Javits Center could be served much more cheaply by running a
    shuttle, probably w/ LIRR equipment, between Penn Station and a new
    platform that would be built on the north side of the LIRR West Side
    Yard (Caemmerer Yard) which is right across the street from the Javits
    Center. A free transfer using MetroCard would be permitted from
    existing bus or subway lines. The platform would not need to
    accommodate a full length LIRR train. The shuttle could only run
    during Javits Center events (or maybe between 7am and 7pm) to save
    some additional money. The MTA would not have to spend huge amounts of
    money to build new tunnels, only a new island platform and perhaps
    some track switches to accommodate the shuttle.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8607
PREVIOUS>8592
POSTER>aaron 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:38 1998
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Posted by aaron on January 21, 1998 at 13:58:43:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye posted by Todd
    Glickman on January 21, 1998 at 09:08:32:
    
    Your picture looks great, www.newsradio88.com!
    
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NEXT>8609
PREVIOUS>8606
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:40 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on January 21, 1998 at 14:13:48:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye posted by aaron on
    January 21, 1998 at 13:58:43:
    
    Well if you must, you can see it directly at [9]WCBS People Behind the
    Microphone. Then you can click on my name on that page and go to my
    REAL Home Page, where of course I have a link to 'nycsubway.org'.
    
    -Todd
    
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NEXT>8619
PREVIOUS>8591
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:43 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 16:05:32:

   In Reply to: [7]Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
    posted by David McCabe on January 18, 1998 at 20:20:24:
    
    You have probably picked this up from the other earlier follow-ups
    below, but most car deliveries over the years have been by car-float.
    BMT cars were delivered to Bush Terminal, and from there got on system
    by perhaps several connections to the industrial railroads mentioned.
    As I recall, IND cars before 1940 went by float to the IND yard which
    is visible between the Broadway El and the Haarlem River; you could
    still see the apron lowering structure in place in the 60's. I have no
    info on original IRT deliveries, but suspect that any number of
    connections to then existing railroads could have been put in
    temporarily, including to the manhattan Els.
    
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NEXT>8617
PREVIOUS>8607
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:47 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 16:46:18:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye posted by Todd
    Glickman on January 21, 1998 at 14:13:48:
    
    I've always wondered, but now that I have seen your picture, I must
    ask if you are related to the inimitable Marty Glickman, radio voice
    of the NY Giants. I don't know why I called him inimitable, 'cause I
    used to imitate him all the time!
    
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NEXT>8612
PREVIOUS>8605
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: extension of the 7 west and south
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:51 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 17:08:45:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: extension of the 7 west and south posted by Chris
    C. on January 21, 1998 at 10:44:31:
    
    These discussions usually end when someone (often me) reminds all that
    the lower level 8th Ave 42nd St platform blocks extention of the #7 to
    the West. However, this time let's turn this fact into a plus! We know
    that all tracks north of 42nd street can be routed to the lower
    platform. At this time the lower tracks reconnect to the lines above.
    But they could (relatively) easily be turned to the right and diverted
    to tenth or eleventh, and run as far south as funding permits, or
    hooked up to the L at 14th St. All IND/BMT, so no width problems. I am
    presuming that service to the West side would be justified by
    development which has occurred in the years since I left (1964); It
    certainly wasn't then!
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8494
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Oueensborough Plaza
DATE>Jan 26 10:31:55 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 17:39:08:

   In Reply to: [7]Oueensborough Plaza posted by Ray Ottulich on January
    17, 1998 at 23:44:05:
    
    The Steinway Tunnel refers to the segment of the #7 line between Van
    Alst and Grand Central. The Steinway Tunnel article from the ERA
    publication, referenced elsewhere below, is MUST reading!
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8610
POSTER>Chris C 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: extension of the 7 west and south
DATE>Jan 26 10:32:01 1998
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Posted by Chris C on January 21, 1998 at 17:59:45:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: extension of the 7 west and south posted by Gary
    Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 17:08:45:
    
    Forgot about the lower level. However, it seems that if they can put a
    man on the moon, they can come up with a switching system that would
    alow one set of tracks to bisect another. What are we wimps??? As to
    the development point. The Javits Center as well as some speculative
    ventures like the Sports complex suspended above the Penn Yards or the
    Extension to Penn Station potentially at the same site, as well as the
    assumption that Battery Park City will creep uptown in the years to
    come, are reasons to support extensions west.
    
    
    
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NEXT>8626
PREVIOUS>8431
POSTER>Doug Hall 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: CRUNCH! (also an MBTA commuter rail question)
DATE>Jan 26 10:32:04 1998
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Posted by Doug Hall on January 21, 1998 at 18:09:15:

   In Reply to: [8]CRUNCH! (also an MBTA commuter rail question) posted
    by Timothy Speer on January 16, 1998 at 09:04:05:
    
    Not sure what the D means. Have there been any train/motor vehicle
    accidents that you know of on the Kingston, Plymouth or Middleborough
    lines ? I've seen nothing on the news.
    
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NEXT>8625
PREVIOUS>8546
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Electroliner Question
DATE>Jan 26 10:32:07 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 18:49:42:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Electroliner Question posted by Alan Follett on
    January 20, 1998 at 00:58:31:
    
    Chestertonian? This is a young crowd! Try "Jabaesqe" for those
    unfamiliar with G.K.'s body type.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8531
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Restrooms
DATE>Jan 26 10:32:09 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 19:13:58:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Restrooms posted by Peter Rosa on January 19, 1998
    at 13:14:06:
    
    I assure you that transit operators are very desireous of rest
    facilities for their employees at terminals and major layovers. It is
    also likely that the facilities used by a lot of trainmen tend not to
    become pigstyes because the employees know who to look up if they are
    not cleaned regularly. The fate of the seldom used facility became
    such that closing them was apparently acceptable to the riding public.
    I was taught at home to NEVER enter a subway rest room no matter how
    bad it hurt! As a result, to this day I can amaze nurses with my
    bladder capacity. (over two litres!) Yes, young guys, when you get old
    enough that's all that remains to impress them!
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8517
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Grand Central
DATE>Jan 26 10:32:12 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 19:26:05:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Grand Central posted by Mark S Feinman on January
    16, 1998 at 17:04:03:
    
    I can't give useful directions to this source, but perhaps someone who
    enjoys looking up old newspapers can find it; the article I remember
    is probably the reason I remained interested in underground
    construction and became a Civil Engineer. My mother had cut it out of
    a Sunday paper or magazine supplement prior to 1949. It was an artists
    rendition of all the levels under Grand Central, and I assure you
    there were more than two or three when NYC, subway, sewer, steam, and
    pedestrian passageways were all depicted. She was always one to cut
    out articles such as this one, but never remembered to write the
    source on the margin!
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8609
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye
DATE>Jan 26 10:32:16 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on January 21, 1998 at 19:47:06:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Rare Trip Across Hammel's Wye posted by Gary
    Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 16:46:18:
    
    Nope, I've met Marty, and we're not related. Nor am I related to
    Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman.
    
    My grandfather's name was Arthur Glickman, of Ocean Parkway in
    Brooklyn, who took the subway to work every day for 55 years. And he
    took me for rides to my heart's content when I was young :-)
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8459
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Washington DC Green Line
DATE>Jan 26 10:32:18 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 19:55:40:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Washington DC Green Line posted by Mark Greenwald
    on January 17, 1998 at 00:41:37:
    
    This is great news for occasional travlers to DC like myself. The
    existing system is perhaps the best in the US for visitors, and
    completing it will make it even better!
    
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NEXT>8620
PREVIOUS>8608
POSTER>Lefty 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
DATE>Jan 26 10:32:21 1998
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Posted by Lefty on January 21, 1998 at 20:28:07:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
    posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 16:05:32:
    
    cars may have been delivered to the IRT through that same IND yard
    because there is a track that goes from it up to the elevated 1 train.
    you can see this connection right at the north end of the 207th st
    station.
    
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NEXT>8621
PREVIOUS>8619
POSTER>Dan Schwartz 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
DATE>Jan 26 10:32:24 1998
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Posted by Dan Schwartz on January 22, 1998 at 10:37:10:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
    posted by Lefty on January 21, 1998 at 20:28:07:
    
    > cars may have been delivered to the IRT through that same IND yard >
    because there is a track that goes from it up to the elevated 1 train.
    you > can see this connection right at the north end of the 207th st
    station.
    
    That connection of the Broadway elevated line to the 207th St. yard is
    quite recent; I saw it being put up, sometime in the 1980's I'm pretty
    sure, I don't recall the exact year. So it couldn't have been used for
    deliveries of IRT cars. (Well, perhaps some of the R62(a)'s, but no,
    that wouldn't be possible either, since the facilities for receiving
    the cars by water are supposed to have been removed in the 1960's,
    well before that ramp was built).
    
    
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NEXT>8622
PREVIOUS>8620
POSTER>Peter Dougherty 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
DATE>Jan 26 10:32:26 1998
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Posted by Peter Dougherty on January 22, 1998 at 23:41:19:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
    posted by Dan Schwartz on January 22, 1998 at 10:37:10:
    
    >> cars may have been delivered to the IRT through that same IND yard
    > because there is a track that
    goes from it up to the elevated 1 train. you > can see this connection
    right at the north end of the 207th st
    station.
    
    >That connection of the Broadway elevated line to the 207th St. yard
    is quite recent; I saw it being put up,
    sometime in the 1980's I'm pretty sure, I don't recall the exact year.
    
    My signal books from 1986 show no reference to this ramp either, so it
    must have been late '80s as best. It does
    show the abandoned ramp in the 207th St. yard, however.
    
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NEXT>8624
PREVIOUS>8621
POSTER>Peter Dougherty 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
DATE>Jan 26 10:32:29 1998
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Posted by Peter Dougherty on January 23, 1998 at 00:08:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
    posted by David McCabe on January 18, 1998 at 20:20:24:
    
    [This question was inspired by the very cool track maps on this site!]
    First off, thank you very much for your kind comments on my track
    maps; they're very much appreciated.
    
    What connections exist or did exist between the subways and outside
    railroads? Are there any outside of
    Brooklyn?
    
    >>I am particularly interested in the connections in the vicinity of
    the 9th avenue stop on the Culver line.
    The maps show an existing connection between the NY Cross Harbor RR
    and the subway track. Does
    this in fact exist? If so, is it used, and what for? If not, what was
    it used for in the past?
    
    To answer your question, I will refer you to the printed book version
    of these same maps which are available either
    directly from me or through rail and hobby shops in the NYC area. I
    have actively traced
    all the tracks around the areas you refer to, and have published the
    results.
    I have also conferred with Bruce Crawford of New York Regional Rail,
    the company operating the NYCH today.
    
    Essentially, here's the scoop on routing. Assuming a work train starts
    off in the 36-38th St. yard, it enters the "B"
    tracks on signals on track D2. Just before the portal to the 4th Ave
    line, it would use the single crossover across to
    D1 track, then through the turnout continuing on either D1 or D2 track
    into the lower yard. NOTE: The home signals
    and interlocking here also control a derail on both D1 and D2 tracks!
    
    Continuing past this point, the equipment must be diesel as there is
    no 3rd rail at this point. The lower yard has
    4 tracks, one of which has a dilapidated loading ramp in the middle of
    it. D2 track continues through this yard, and
    crosses 3rd Avenue. This area is at the southeast corner of 3rd Av and
    38th St. It passes south of Costco (on 100# rail,
    I might add--maybe 130, but at least 100), and then on a diagonal into
    a fenced off area right at the off-ramp from the
    Gowanus, and just above 39 St. Two possibilities exist here:
    
    1) continue into the fenced off area about 1,000 feet back into the
    39th St. yard, or the dead yard. this is the last resting
    place of cars before they go to scrap in NJ.
    
    2), after clearing the switch (located in the middle of 2nd Av), the
    switch is thrown and the movement is reversed south
    onto 2nd Ave. Continuing south on 2nd Av, it goes west on 41st, south
    on 1st Av and then into the NYRR yard at 43rd.
    From there, material/junk cars, etc are transferred to barges and
    floated off to NJ and Conrail.
    
    MoW materials in and scrap rolling stock out are the main users of
    this connection today.
    
    >How about the famous South Brooklyn Railway? (connects on the east
    side of the 9th Ave. stop). The
    map detail mentions garbage platforms.
    
    That's about all that's left of the once-proud SBkRR. Two tail tracks
    just south of 37th St., going as far east as
    Fort Hamilton Parkway. East of there you can see a new housing
    development where the Culver shuttle once stood,
    and under which the South Brooklyn once ran.
    
    >Is this where all the garbage from the system ends up?
    Not all of it, no, but certainly much of the Brooklyn lines' tash
    does. The garbage train is now the only thing which sees
    the lower level of 9th Av. now.
    
    >the "Linden Wye" presumably is used for access to the Linden Shops.
    But if this track is not
    electrified, what are it and the Linden Shops used for? Exclusively
    MOW equipment?
    
    Just that; Linden Iron Shop.
    
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NEXT>8858
PREVIOUS>8523
POSTER>Peter Dougherty 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks
DATE>Jan 26 10:32:32 1998
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Posted by Peter Dougherty on January 23, 1998 at 00:15:00:

   In Reply to: [8]Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks posted by Mike B on
    January 15, 1998 at 22:37:34:
    
    The center express track is still in revenue service between Marcy and
    Myrtle Av. There is no revenue service between Myrtle and Eastern
    Parkway, although the track is still perfectly maintained, and is used
    for deadheads, re-routes, work trains, etc.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8622
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
DATE>Jan 26 10:32:36 1998
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Posted by Ed Sachs on January 23, 1998 at 13:11:13:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Connections between NYC Subway and outside Rails
    posted by Dan Schwartz on January 22, 1998 at 10:37:10:
    
    Weren't early !RT deliveries to the yards at 148 St and the Harlem
    River (north end of #3 line)?
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8614
POSTER>Alan Follett 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Electroliner Question
DATE>Jan 26 10:32:38 1998
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Posted by Alan Follett on January 23, 1998 at 18:05:09:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Electroliner Question posted by Gary Jacobi on
    January 21, 1998 at 18:49:42:
    
    Hmm--good point--although, like GKC and unlike the reprehensible Hutt,
    I do at least have legs!
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8613
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: CRUNCH! (also an MBTA commuter rail question)
DATE>Jan 26 10:32:40 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 23, 1998 at 21:39:31:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: CRUNCH! (also an MBTA commuter rail question)
    posted by Doug Hall on January 21, 1998 at 18:09:15:
    
    No collisions to my knowledge.
    
    Could the "D" possibly signify cars that were converted from CTC's
    (control) to BTC's (blind)?
    
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NEXT>8639
PREVIOUS>8582
POSTER>tom vicinanza 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>memorabilia
DATE>Jan 26 12:28:57 1998
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Posted by tom vicinanza on January 20, 1998 at 19:56:22:

   Anyone into collecting of subway / NYC transmit memorabilia?
    Would like to chat about items which may be around.
    Tom
    
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NEXT>8629
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Message titles falsely appearing as read
DATE>Jan 26 12:29:01 1998
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Posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 21, 1998 at 07:05:59:

   Has anyone had the problem on this board lately where SOME unread
    messages are appearing as already read (eg: dark blue instead of
    bright blue)? Dave?
    
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NEXT>8632
PREVIOUS>8628
POSTER>Alan Follett 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read
DATE>Jan 26 12:29:06 1998
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Posted by Alan Follett on January 21, 1998 at 08:15:10:

   In Reply to: [8]Message titles falsely appearing as read posted by
    Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 21, 1998 at 07:05:59:
    
    
    I can't say I've noted exactly that problem. However, at least on my
    screen, the light and dark shades of blue are so close to each other
    that it's hard to distinguish between them.
    
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NEXT>8631
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>aaron 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>schedules
DATE>Jan 26 12:29:08 1998
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Posted by aaron on January 21, 1998 at 08:30:42:

   How about posting schedules so users don't have to call TA and remain
    on
    hold for 15 minutes.
    
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NEXT>8635
PREVIOUS>8630
POSTER>330-1234 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: schedules
DATE>Jan 26 12:29:11 1998
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Posted by 330-1234 on January 21, 1998 at 10:26:31:

   In Reply to: [7]schedules posted by aaron on January 21, 1998 at
    08:30:42:
    
    All Train Schedules are on the web site for each line.
    
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NEXT>8633
PREVIOUS>8629
POSTER>David Pirmann - web site host 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read
DATE>Jan 26 12:29:16 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann - web site host on January 21, 1998 at

   
    In Reply to: [8]Message titles falsely appearing as read posted by
    Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 21, 1998 at 07:05:59:
    
    The marking of the links is a function of your browser. I reset the
    message numbers a while back so it is possible you're seeing "posts"
    you've already seen. E.g. your post was /subtalk/messages/3771.html
    which had existed once before. Your browser can't tell the difference.
    If it reall matters to you, try dumping the history of visited sites.
    
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NEXT>8667
PREVIOUS>8632
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read
DATE>Jan 26 12:29:18 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 21, 1998 at 12:18:01:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read posted by
    Alan Follett on January 21, 1998 at 08:15:10:
    
    You can change the "visited links" colors under "preferences." I use
    red.
    
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NEXT>8636
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>aaron 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Just another ride home
DATE>Jan 26 12:29:21 1998
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Posted by aaron on January 21, 1998 at 12:49:51:

   On the #2 northbound from Chambers to Penn Station last night. Going
    for
    the 17:46 LIRR train to Far Rockaway, change at Jamaica. Got as far as
    28th
    street at 17:41. Train stops. We sit. 17:44, informed that #3 train is
    BIE at Penn Station. 17:49, still sitting, missed LIRR. 17:50, bum
    sitting by door blows chow all over crowded car, dousing a poor women
    in
    business clothes. 17:51, passengers scatter as best they can. 17:53,
    car
    starts to reek. 17:55, BIE condition ahead clears up, #2 continues on
    to
    34th Street. 17:58, on 18:02 LIRR train to Far Rockaway. Just another
    ride home...
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8631
POSTER>Mark S Feinamn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: schedules
DATE>Jan 26 12:29:23 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinamn on January 21, 1998 at 13:17:04:

   In Reply to: [8]schedules posted by aaron on January 21, 1998 at
    08:30:42:
    
    Schedules and other official communiques from NYC Transit should be
    found on MTA's web site. This site isn't affiliated with the MTA in
    any way and wouldn't have schedules posted.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8640
PREVIOUS>8634
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Just another ride home
DATE>Jan 26 12:29:25 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 21, 1998 at 13:23:58:

   In Reply to: [8]Just another ride home posted by aaron on January 21,
    1998 at 12:49:51:
    
    Looks like your timing's a bit off. If the skell blew chunks at 17:50,
    the passengers would've scattered not at 17:51, as you say, but at
    17:50.01 :-)
    
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NEXT>8638
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>New NYC Subway Map
DATE>Jan 26 12:29:30 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 21, 1998 at 13:27:32:

   Heard on WCBS newsradio88 this morning (and copied from their web
    site):
    
 MTA Issues New Subway Map
 
    
    It's time to pick up a new subway map.
    
    WCBS Newsradio 88 Reporter Mike Xirinachs tells us the MTA has
    resigned its free subway map for the first time in nearly 20 years.
    
    One of the biggest improvements is that the new map shows the bus
    connections at all the major subway stations.
    
    It also shows more ferry connections and the entire Staten Island
    rapid transit system.
    
    The reverse side shows many of the major suburban transit systems.
    
    To get all that new information on the map, they had to make it nearly
    twice as big.
    
    Now it has to be folded nine times in one direction, and three times
    in the other.
    
    Anyone have one already and care to share what they think of it?
    
    --Mark
    
    
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NEXT>8659
PREVIOUS>8637
POSTER>Daniel 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New NYC Subway Map
DATE>Jan 26 12:29:32 1998
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Posted by Daniel on January 21, 1998 at 14:04:32:

   In Reply to: [8]New NYC Subway Map posted by Mark S Feinman on January
    21, 1998 at 13:27:32:
    
    Interesting... its sounds very similar to a map the MTA released about
    two years ago... It had the subway map on one side, and a map of the
    Metro-North and Long Island Railroads on the other...
    
    This map that you are discussing... Will it be available in all 468
    stations, or would you have to pick one up at the major transfer hubs
    in the system (i.e. Penn Sta., Grand Central, etc.)?
    
    Otherwise, it's great they have a new map... Now, how about improving
    the system, and possibly build (only in my dreams) the Second Ave.
    subway... Then we're talking!
    
    P.S. -- I know... it's too much to ask...
    
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NEXT>8677
PREVIOUS>8627
POSTER>tom vicinanza 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: memorabilia
DATE>Jan 26 12:29:36 1998
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Posted by tom vicinanza on January 21, 1998 at 14:09:57:

   In Reply to: [7]memorabilia posted by tom vicinanza on January 20,
    1998 at 19:56:22:
    
    I myself am interested in finding a few items. Its amazing how
    scarce something so common is. There have had to be a million various
    signs of all kinds removed or replaced over all the years and they had
    to wind up somewhere. Ive talked to relatives who work within and they
    dont even know where the stuff goes. I have an enamel sign that
    was removed from under Radio City Music Hall, D line, 50th street.
    A large porcelian on steel "NO SMOKING NO SPITTING" and it goes on to
    quote the law at the time. Fine shape. You can see a glimpse of it
    in the movie "Fatal Attraction" when the stars are decending into the
    subway at 6th ave and 49th street right next to radio city. I also
    recently obtianed a "TA" operators badge. Thats about all I have. 2
    pieces. I would be interested in other signs, from particular
    stations.
    With all the modernization, this stuff has got to be stock piled some
    place. I wasnt there for the "tag sale", that must have been
    interesting.
    Being an ex-new yorker and avid subway lover I find this to be an
    interesting page. I hope to read often. I've seen "transit ads" but
    there isnt much there of interest to me. I read a comment earlier
    posted
    that the TA Museum in Brooklyn used to sell the roll signs. I guess
    thats
    before they realized supply/demand possibilities. I collect other NYC
    related items too. Looking for those little signs on everyone's fire
    escape in apartment buidings. Right in front of your face as you look
    out the window. "Anyone Placing Any Encumbrance On This Balcony Will
    Be Fined Five Dollars" or some wording to that effect. See one?
    I buy em!. Good luck on the quest for subway related memorabillia.
    It seems to be rare to find it available anywhere right now.
    Someday???
    Tom
    
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NEXT>8651
PREVIOUS>8636
POSTER>tom vicinanza 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Just another ride home
DATE>Jan 26 12:29:39 1998
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Posted by tom vicinanza on January 21, 1998 at 14:12:56:

   In Reply to: [7]Just another ride home posted by aaron on January 21,
    1998 at 12:49:51:
    
    And that is one of the many reasons I left NYC 10 years ago.
    
    
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NEXT>8645
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Will 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Triborough System and NYW&B Pages
DATE>Jan 26 12:29:42 1998
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Posted by Will on January 21, 1998 at 14:41:38:

   For some reason, whenever I try and load these pages all the text
    comes in on top of itself so that the screen is illegible. What I mean
    to say is that it all seems "squished" together so that almost every
    line is on top of another line thereby creating crazy dark bands
    across my screen.
    
    Anyone have any idea if something is wrong? If so, what? Has anyone
    else had any trouble loading these pages?
    
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NEXT>8646
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Delaware Water Gap tracks
DATE>Jan 26 12:29:44 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 21, 1998 at 14:48:27:

   I was passing the Delaware Water Gap on I-80 and noticed a old track
    and a
    station house. The station house was in very bad condition. It seemd
    like a old abandoned passenger line? Is this true? If not, what is it?
    Have anyone seen it, or know what I'm talking about?
    
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NEXT>8855
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New NYC Subway Map (NYCT or MTA??)
DATE>Jan 26 12:29:46 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 21, 1998 at 14:57:40:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: New NYC Subway Map posted by Daniel on January 21,
    1998 at 14:04:32:
    
    I agree. It may be the >> new version of its entire rail system
    (Subway, LIRR, Metro North), like the one that came out about 2 years
    ago. It may not be the new >> Subway map, which I thought would come
    out in March to reflect the impending change discussed here between
    the B and C lines in Washington Hts and the Bronx.
    
    The first "MTA Rail" map struck me as a bit odd at the time, since one
    side was nearly a duplicate (done independently, apparently) of the
    subway map. Personally I would prefer 4 rail maps to be put out:
    Subway, LIRR, Metro-North, NJT. However,I certainly don't mind the MTA
    version, but for exact service the NYCT has to be the Bible of the
    subway. The MTA version is an interpretive translation + the Commuter
    lines (no more metaphors).
    
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NEXT>8701
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New NYC Subway Map (NYCT or MTA??) Attempt #2
DATE>Jan 26 12:29:50 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 21, 1998 at 14:58:13:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: New NYC Subway Map posted by Daniel on January 21,
    1998 at 14:04:32:
    
    I agree. It may be the MTA's new version of its entire rail system
    (Subway, LIRR, Metro North), like the one that came out about 2 years
    ago. It may not be the new NYCT Subway map, which I thought would come
    out in March to reflect the impending change discussed here between
    the B and C lines in Washington Hts and the Bronx.
    
    The first "MTA Rail" map struck me as a bit odd at the time, since one
    side was nearly a duplicate (done independently, apparently) of the
    subway map. Personally I would prefer 4 rail maps to be put out:
    Subway, LIRR, Metro-North, NJT. However,I certainly don't mind the MTA
    version, but for exact service the NYCT has to be the Bible of the
    subway. The MTA version is an interpretive translation + the Commuter
    lines (no more metaphors).
    
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NEXT>8648
PREVIOUS>8641
POSTER>David Pirmann - web site host 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages
DATE>Jan 26 12:29:52 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann - web site host on January 21, 1998 at

   
    In Reply to: [8]Triborough System and NYW&B Pages posted by Will on
    January 21, 1998 at 14:41:38:
    
    What browser are you using? I have Cascading Style Sheets on those
    pages. It should display properly in a CSS-enabled browser (IE 3.0, IE
    4.0, NS 4.0). Admittedly I've only tested it using Netscape. Browsers
    which don't understand CSS (like NS 3.0) will ignore the CSS codes.
    I've looked at it with NS 3.0 on Windows 95, and NS 4.0 on Unix from
    different machines and it all appears fine to me.
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8642
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Delaware Water Gap tracks
DATE>Jan 26 12:29:54 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 21, 1998 at 16:12:35:

   In Reply to: [8]Delaware Water Gap tracks posted by Steve on January
    21, 1998 at 14:48:27:
    
    I heard a while ago that they were establishing a rail link between
    NYC and the Delaware Water Gap area. They had most of the track except
    for some sections in NJ that they needed to condemn or something.
    
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NEXT>8652
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>LA Subway Funding Cutoff
DATE>Jan 26 12:29:56 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 16:36:56:

   I am in a position to field questions about the details of the funding
    cutoff that made yesterday's news. Unfortunately my contact is out of
    the office today, but will call me tomorrow. I will ask, and pass on
    the answers to, what lines will and won't be built, and anything else
    anybody asks me, but please don't ask WHY!!
    
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NEXT>8649
PREVIOUS>8645
POSTER>Dan Schwartz 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages
DATE>Jan 26 12:29:59 1998
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Posted by Dan Schwartz on January 21, 1998 at 17:56:49:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages posted by David
    Pirmann - web site host on January 21, 1998 at 16:02:20:
    
    I also have not been able to read the NYWB main page or the the pages
    it links to (from the NYWB3.HTML up) using Internet Explorer 3.0. Only
    a jumbled black mass appears, instead of the body text. The pages look
    fine, however, when viewed with Netscape Navigator 3.03 Gold. Indeed,
    they look quite attractive.
    
    I also found that if I save the jumbled-looking pages locally on my
    hard drive, and later load the saved files into Internet Explorer,
    they display fine. But viewed on-line, they don't. I hope this is some
    help in tracking down the problem. I think it has something to do with
    "style sheets", since the new pages, the ones with the problem, have a
    reference to something like that in the HTML code, while the older
    pages (without the problem) don't.
    
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NEXT>8653
PREVIOUS>8648
POSTER>Joshua Caesar 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages
DATE>Jan 26 12:30:06 1998
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Posted by Joshua Caesar on January 21, 1998 at 18:31:01:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages posted by Dan
    Schwartz on January 21, 1998 at 17:56:49:
    
    When I highlight the NYW&B page, which is extremely "jumbled", it gets
    rid of alot of that effect. I could read a good part of the page
    highlighted, although some of the text still ran over some of the
    other text, but not very much. I am using AOL for 3.0 win 95, IE
    version 3.02
    
    Josh Caesar
    studlyjc@aol.com
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Doug Hall 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Boston MBTA - Red Line indicator
DATE>Jan 26 12:30:16 1998
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Posted by Doug Hall on January 21, 1998 at 18:39:12:

   Anyone know what the small yellow light on the front end of red line
    trains (Braintree-Alewife) indicates ?
    
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NEXT>8656
PREVIOUS>8640
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Just another ride home
DATE>Jan 26 12:30:20 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 21, 1998 at 18:55:57:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Just another ride home posted by tom vicinanza on
    January 21, 1998 at 14:12:56:
    
    Really? Where did you go to escape this phenomenon? The drunks barf on
    innocent bystanders everywhere I've been!
    
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NEXT>8662
PREVIOUS>8647
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff
DATE>Jan 26 12:30:23 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 21, 1998 at 19:37:38:

   In Reply to: [8]LA Subway Funding Cutoff posted by Gary Jacobi on
    January 21, 1998 at 16:36:56:
    
    Given that LA is the land of the automobile , I don't think we need to
    ask WHY. My only question is how many more lanes they widen the
    highway before they get serious about mass transit. 5? 10?? 20??
    
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NEXT>8654
PREVIOUS>8649
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages
DATE>Jan 26 12:30:26 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 21, 1998 at 20:03:06:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages posted by Joshua
    Caesar on January 21, 1998 at 18:31:01:
    
    Anyone running IE 4.0 and having the problem?
    
    My general disdain for Microsoft products aside, it seems like IE3.0
    is neither displaying the CSS information properly NOR ignoring it.
    
    -Dave
    
    
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NEXT>8660
PREVIOUS>8653
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages
DATE>Jan 26 12:30:28 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 21, 1998 at 20:05:15:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages posted by David
    Pirmann on January 21, 1998 at 20:03:06:
    
    I just changed the stylesheet slightly. You IE 3.0 people, please let
    me know if it is any better.
    
    -Dave
    
    
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NEXT>8658
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lefty 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Subway map from Fall '85! Dave P. check it out!
DATE>Jan 26 12:30:30 1998
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Posted by Lefty on January 21, 1998 at 20:25:20:

   hey, i just scanned this.. i found it in my house while looking for
    something completely different.. it is the first map released (i
    think) after the elimination of the double letter trains.. it also may
    be the first map showing the H and K trains and also shows the JFK
    express train! put in on the site maybe Dave Pirmann.. hope this
    works:
    [8]http://www.inch.com/~orion/NYCSubwayFall1985.jpg - 1.6 MB
    
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NEXT>8657
PREVIOUS>8651
POSTER>tom vicinanza 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Just another ride home
DATE>Jan 26 12:30:32 1998
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Posted by tom vicinanza on January 21, 1998 at 20:32:29:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Just another ride home posted by Gary Jacobi on
    January 21, 1998 at 18:55:57:
    
    Perhaps it is just more pleasant when they barf on you here.
    I'm in Orlando. Seriously, I put up with enough drunks strecthed out
    on the seats at 6 a.m. then I want to remember.
    
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NEXT>8663
PREVIOUS>8656
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Just another ride home
DATE>Jan 26 12:30:34 1998
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Posted by Nick on January 21, 1998 at 21:18:49:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Just another ride home posted by tom vicinanza on
    January 21, 1998 at 20:32:29:
    
    It's too bad you had to go through all of that. If you were kind of
    lucky, you may have at least gotten to admire the R110A (since your on
    the #2) but luck just wasn't on your side. Well, some days are better
    than others.-Nick
    
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NEXT>8672
PREVIOUS>8655
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subway map from Fall '85! Dave P. check it out!
DATE>Jan 26 12:30:36 1998
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Posted by Nick on January 21, 1998 at 21:36:20:

   In Reply to: [8]Subway map from Fall '85! Dave P. check it out! posted
    by Lefty on January 21, 1998 at 20:25:20:
    
    Wow, this brings back memories! I remember catching the N train at
    Forest Hills! This map is probably right after they did away with the
    double letter trains (RR, JJ, etc.-I'm making those trains up...forget
    which ones were double letters) Just give me a train where the doors
    have two window circles on them and we'll be all set.-Nick
    
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NEXT>8685
PREVIOUS>8638
POSTER>Walter 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New NYC Subway Map
DATE>Jan 26 12:30:38 1998
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Posted by Walter on January 21, 1998 at 22:05:55:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: New NYC Subway Map posted by Daniel on January 21,
    1998 at 14:04:32:
    
    The new map was available today in the Transit Museum shop in Grand
    Central Terminal but not in the racks at MTA headquarters on Madison
    Ave. It's basically an updated 1979 subway map on one side (with some
    bus and ferry connections noted) and the M-N/LIRR map on the other
    side, just like the recent MTA map. The subway side doesn't yet show
    the B/C train changes, but it shows the B/Q running only to 57th St.
    and an S shuttle running from 7th Ave./57th St. to 21st St. in Queens.
    I don't see what all the ruckus is all about; I guess it's all MTA
    hype.
    
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NEXT>8678
PREVIOUS>8654
POSTER>Dan Schwartz 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages
DATE>Jan 26 12:30:40 1998
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Posted by Dan Schwartz on January 21, 1998 at 22:59:44:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages posted by David
    Pirmann on January 21, 1998 at 20:05:15:
    
    YES! It looks fine now. Many thanks.
    
    
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NEXT>8673
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>wsteil 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
DATE>Jan 26 12:30:43 1998
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Posted by wsteil on January 21, 1998 at 23:08:00:

   I just returned from an all-too-brief visit to NYC. One evening, I
    returned from the Met Museum on a downtown M4 bus, transferred free to
    the downtown E at the IND 5th Av./53d st. station. The train was
    jammed, so much so that I couldnt get off at 50th St/8 Av. because the
    platform was on the other side of the car. So I got off at the 42d St.
    IND Station
    *downstairs* at an island platform (which was on the "correct" side
    for me to get off). PA announcement on the train: "Change for the A &
    C lines *upstairs*". This platform appeared to be in regular service
    and did not look anything like the pictures of the abandoned station
    platform listed on this site.
    I went upstairs and crossed over to catch a northbound C or E back to
    50th; I didnt have time to check things out more thoroughly; I do
    remember the upstairs platforms being offset: the platforms were not
    directly across from each other, but rather the downtown platform was
    about 500ft. further south than the northbound side (just as shown in
    Peter Dougherty's excellent book "Tracks of the NYC Subway")
    Questions for the group:
    (1) Has the TA resurrected & rehabilitated the *abandoned* racetrack
    platform I've seen referenced here on Subtalk,
    (2) Is there another (3rd) level to the station, or
    (3) Did I just have one great out of body experience?
    
    
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NEXT>8664
PREVIOUS>8652
POSTER>Joe-M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff
DATE>Jan 26 12:30:45 1998
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Posted by Joe-M on January 21, 1998 at 23:32:39:

   In Reply to: [7]LA Subway Funding Cutoff posted by Gary Jacobi on
    January 21, 1998 at 16:36:56:
    
    I could use some of the stockpiled concrete ties (about 5500 or so)
    that I saw on TV last night
    
    What will they do with surplus materials.
    
    Inter-agency transfer comes to mind.
    
    PS are you in Sac.??
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8657
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Just another ride home
DATE>Jan 26 12:30:47 1998
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Posted by Joe M on January 21, 1998 at 23:39:38:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Just another ride home posted by tom vicinanza on
    January 21, 1998 at 20:32:29:
    
    
    We had snow here today but rather uneventfull. Just one fire plug
    jumped out in front of a bus No damage to either.
    
    Some days are better than others.
    
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NEXT>8666
PREVIOUS>8662
POSTER>Larry Littlefied 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff
DATE>Jan 26 12:30:51 1998
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Posted by Larry Littlefied on January 21, 1998 at 23:41:13:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff posted by Philip
    Nasadowski on January 21, 1998 at 19:37:38:
    
    My question is, what money was cut off? Federal or local?
    
    The view from NYC is, the LA subway is doomed to failure. For mass
    transit to cover its cost, there has to be a mass -- otherwise the
    government is chauffering around a small number of people at an
    exhorbitant cost. No corridor in LA has sufficient residence or
    workplace density to support a subway without extreme subsidies. LA
    has about the same density as Staten Island, and the SIRT covers about
    10 percent of its operating costs.
    
    Unfortunately, post 1950 American metro areas seem to develop to the
    point where they area too congested for transportation by auto, but
    not too dispersed for mass transit. So people move on to less
    congested metro areas, and to rural areas. Older cities, fortunately,
    already have density and mass transit. New York City's economy is
    strong. Perhaps there is hope for Philadelphia and Baltimore yet,
    
    
    
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NEXT>8668
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
DATE>Jan 26 12:31:10 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 22, 1998 at 00:15:12:

   Hi all. This isn't finished yet, but there's plenty here to take a
    look at. Comments and corrections welcome. If anyone knows a bit about
    the parallel Manhattan Beach RR that ran with the Brighton Line to Ave
    X or so, your input would be most welcome.
    
    --Mark
    
      _________________________________________________________________


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NEXT>8686
PREVIOUS>8664
POSTER>Fernando Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff
DATE>Jan 26 12:31:12 1998
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Posted by Fernando Perez on January 22, 1998 at 01:08:19:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff posted by Larry
    Littlefied on January 21, 1998 at 23:41:13:
    
    Since it wont be feasible to continue as planned with the subway is
    there a back up plan to use portions already built as light rail? Or
    is it just to late for anything else? How about donating the ties to
    railroad and trolley museums? Other cities could use the surplus
    subway cars possibly with modifications.
    
    
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NEXT>8670
PREVIOUS>8633
POSTER>Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read
DATE>Jan 26 12:31:14 1998
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Posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 22, 1998 at 03:48:14:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read posted by
    David Pirmann - web site host on January 21, 1998 at 11:48:20:
    
    Dave, you hit it right on the head! BUT, I'm afraid you don't take the
    problem seriously enough: nobody would want to dump their
    sites-visited-history - everyone wants to know where he already has
    been.
    
    This change is *****VERY***** BAD - I NOW see even more that I have
    been assuming WHOLE CONTINUATIONS of threads were checked out by me
    already, when IN FACT I've missed MUCH.
    
    I'm SURE that others with Netscape are also suffering from this AND
    HAVEN'T FOUND OUT YET!
    
    Sorry to bring bad news Dave, but I advise EVERYONE to check back on
    threads they have been following, and to be aware that of the 20-25
    messages appearing overnight, it may appear that far fewer have
    arrived, and much is being missed!
    
    Dave, can anything br done (that doesn't ruin everyone's link
    history)?
    
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NEXT>8676
PREVIOUS>8665
POSTER>Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
DATE>Jan 26 12:31:16 1998
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Posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 22, 1998 at 04:04:59:

   In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line,
    Working Draft posted by Mark S Feinman on January 22, 1998 at
    00:15:12:
    
    Very nice.
    
    But, I think since you give various details of later service routings,
    you might add more on early services, such as the evening "theatre
    service" on the Brighton Exp run, the night Brighton Local switching
    over to the bridge, but runnung local on B'way, etc.
    
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NEXT>8709
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Joshua Caesar 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>I hae a NJT map (was New NYC Subway Map )
DATE>Jan 26 12:31:20 1998
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Posted by Joshua Caesar on January 22, 1998 at 08:00:55:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New NYC Subway Map (NYCT or MTA??) Attempt #2
    posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 21, 1998 at 14:58:13:
    
    A few years ago, I went up to a New Jersey Transit ticket window in NY
    Pern Station, and asked for a map. The ticket guy looked at me funny,
    and said to me "you want a map??!!" I guess it was the first request
    he had got for on of these, beacause he did not know what to do. After
    a minute, he went to the back, pulled out some book, and photocopied
    an internal map of the NJT rail lines for me. I still have it
    somewhere, when I find it I will scan it, and then provide a link to
    it so that Subtalkers can take a looksie.
    
    Josh Caesar
    studlyjc@aol.com
    
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NEXT>8674
PREVIOUS>8667
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read
DATE>Jan 26 12:31:21 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 22, 1998 at 08:48:45:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read posted by
    Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 22, 1998 at 03:48:14:
    
    The link history is purely under the browser's control. Short of
    renumbering all the subtalk messages there's nothing that can be done
    here until it starts using numbers that were never used before.
    Alternatively you could figure out the format of Netscape's history.db
    file and pull out all the subtalk entries.
    
    Personally, I use the View by Date screen exclusively to read Subtalk.
    I just scroll down to the last message I know I saw, and then work my
    way up the list. Using View by Date means you'll know you haven't seen
    an article regardless of it's link color.
    
    -Dave
    
    
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NEXT>8681
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Michael S. Buglak 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New NYC Subway Map (& Lack of SEPTA Maps)
DATE>Jan 26 12:31:29 1998
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Posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 22, 1998 at 08:50:20:

   In Reply to: [8]New NYC Subway Map posted by Mark S Feinman on January
    21, 1998 at 13:27:32:
    
    At least NYCT issues transit maps every year. We here in Philly
    haven't had a new SEPTA map issued since 1990! It's hard to show
    someone how to get from Center City Philadelphia to King of Prussia,
    PA on the Route 125 bus when all the maps still call this line Route
    45!
    
    Does SEPTA have any plans to issue a new map soon?
    
    Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
    
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NEXT>8675
PREVIOUS>8658
POSTER>sean 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subway map from Fall '85! Dave P. check it out!
DATE>Jan 26 12:31:37 1998
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Posted by sean on January 22, 1998 at 09:01:41:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Subway map from Fall '85! Dave P. check it out!
    posted by Nick on January 21, 1998 at 21:36:20:
    
    looking at the map brought up some questions.
    
    when did the TA eliminate the free transfer to the bus which replaced
    the old Myrtle Avenue el? It had the dotted brown line in it's place.
    
    Also, was the dotted line at the Marcy Ave stop near the Williamsburg
    bridge a substitute for the abandoned el spur to the old ferry
    landing?
    
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NEXT>8682
PREVIOUS>8661
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
DATE>Jan 26 12:31:41 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 22, 1998 at 09:24:27:

   In Reply to: [8]Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
    posted by wsteil on January 21, 1998 at 23:08:00:
    
    Looks like an out-of-body experience to me!!
    Actually, there are three levels at the 42 Street IND station. There
    is a mezzanine on the upper level, and all trains now operate on the
    second level. The lowest, third level is the abandoned downtown-only E
    train platform. To transfer from the downtown E to the uptown C/E, you
    had to go up to the mezzanine from the second level - that probably
    accounts for the confusion. Presumably, when the conductor made the
    "upstairs" announcement he/she was referring to a change from the
    downtown E to an uptown A or C, rather than to a downtown-downtown
    change.
    As far as I know, the abandoned lower level is closed for good and
    there are no plans to reopen it. Until relatively recently, a part of
    it was used for downtown-uptown transfers at the station, but that
    practice was ended when the mezzanine was rebuilt.
    
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NEXT>8712
PREVIOUS>8670
POSTER>Fred Wellamn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read
DATE>Jan 26 12:31:44 1998
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Posted by Fred Wellamn on January 22, 1998 at 09:41:04:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read posted by
    David Pirmann on January 22, 1998 at 08:48:45:
    
    While my computer was being upgraded I used a friends who has a much
    better terminal. I could barley make out the read posts. I also view
    by date so it wasn't to bad. If you can you might try adjusting your
    colors on your monitor.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8672
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subway map from Fall '85! Dave P. check it out!
DATE>Jan 26 12:31:49 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 22, 1998 at 10:02:36:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Subway map from Fall '85! Dave P. check it out!
    posted by sean on January 22, 1998 at 09:01:41:
    
    As far as the Myrtle Avenue bus is concerned, I guess not too many
    people used it. Basically westbound you could get on the bus for free
    with a transfer from the Myrtle-Bway stop. Eastbound busses allowed a
    transfer to the subway at that stop. There are not that many people
    who would ride all the way east to get on a bus to go to their homes
    back to the west, especially not when the G is about 1/3 mile from
    Myrtle Avenue most of the distance anyway.
    
    The other free transfer from the bus was to the 8th Ave at Jay St,
    which probably a lot of people used. However, for the return trip, you
    could only get a transfer at Bway-Nassau to use at Jay St., imitating
    the very old Brooklyn Bridge BMT elevated service. It just wasn't
    worth it, just as they eventually eliminated the Church Avenue free
    bus connection that imitated the Culver Shuttle.
    
    There also used to be a free transfer from almost every downtown
    Brooklyn bus to the 8th Ave at High St. The train-to-bus transfer had
    to be gotten at Bway-Nassau, again imitating the Brooklyn Bridge
    trolley service of the 1930s. I still have a few of those little
    ticket transfers at home. They look just like Franklin Shutle
    transfers.
    
    Now that there is Metrocard Gold, all this is merely a complicated
    footnote.
    
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NEXT>8683
PREVIOUS>8668
POSTER>Mike Berson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
DATE>Jan 26 12:31:52 1998
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Posted by Mike Berson on January 22, 1998 at 10:03:09:

   In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line,
    Working Draft posted by Mark S Feinman on January 22, 1998 at
    00:15:12:
    
    Great Article!!!
    
    One possible correction
    When Chrystie Street opened, D trains terminated at Coney Island at
    all times and QB and QJ trains terminated at Brighton Beach. The D
    still ran express when the QB and QJ ran.
    
    This was later switched around and D trains terminated at Brighton
    Beach when the QB and QJ trains ran, and the QB and QJ terminated at
    Coney Island.
    
    I don't remember when it was switched around.
    
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NEXT>8743
PREVIOUS>8639
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: memorabilia
DATE>Jan 26 12:31:53 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 22, 1998 at 10:09:32:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: memorabilia posted by tom vicinanza on January 21,
    1998 at 14:09:57:
    
    If it is roll signs you want, I am your man. I got a great sign for
    the NY World's Fair, a directional sign from the side of an Expressway
    or something. I have a few station signs, but most of what I have is
    subway and bus roll signs.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8660
POSTER>Will 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages
DATE>Jan 26 12:31:55 1998
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Posted by Will on January 22, 1998 at 10:10:39:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Triborough System and NYW&B Pages posted by Dan
    Schwartz on January 21, 1998 at 22:59:44:
    
    Thank You! The page is now easy to read. I'm not nearly as
    computer-literate as some of the other folks here on this site, but my
    computer now lets me see these pages flawlessly. Again, thanks!
    
    
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NEXT>8680
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>What changes are we expected to see in NYCT bus & subway service on March
DATE>Jan 26 12:31:57 1998
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   I would like to know what changes are in store for NYCT bus & subway
    service for March 1st, 1998. Post all the information you have for all
    subtalk readers can look at.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8679
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>What changes are we expected to see in NYCT bus & subway service on March
DATE>Jan 26 12:31:59 1998
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   I would like to know what changes are in store for NYCT bus & subway
    service for March 1st, 1998. Post all the information you have for all
    subtalk readers can look at.
    
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NEXT>8692
PREVIOUS>8671
POSTER>Will 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New NYC Subway Map (& Lack of SEPTA Maps)
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:02 1998
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Posted by Will on January 22, 1998 at 10:56:46:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: New NYC Subway Map (& Lack of SEPTA Maps) posted
    by Michael S. Buglak on January 22, 1998 at 08:50:20:
    
    Unfortunately, SEPTA (as far as I know) does not have any immediate
    plans to issue new system maps.
    
    Recently, they have been issuing new "Center City Transit Maps" on a
    seasonal basis, but the only places to get these seems to be in
    Suburban Station or at the headquarters lobby. These maps have an
    excellent view of all the rail and bus lines in Center City, with a
    frequency guide on the back. Their creation was "pushed" by management
    since so many new people are visiting our fair city since the new
    Convention Center opened. A similar map for University City was issued
    when the new Regional Rail station opened there about a year and a
    half ago. But, obviously, both of these maps do not show the entire
    system.
    
    Also about a year and a half ago SEPTA printed little pocket-sized
    versions of its rail "High Speed System" map. This is the map they
    post in stations and in rail cars. I got a couple and have never seen
    them reissued since then. Like the Vignelli New York subway map, this
    map distorts geography and its usefullness is limited. It is also VERY
    difficult for strangers to work out the Regional Rail routes on these
    maps. At times, the Transit Museum Store prints simple 8 1/2" x 11"
    versions of this map to hand out to folks who always ask for a "subway
    map - the free one". Recently, this map has been slightly updated by
    the graphics folks who put a color assignment (at the terminal station
    only) on each Regional Rail line, so both the "Reading" and
    "Pennsylvania" sides are easy to match. Unfortunately, errors continue
    to creep up, such as:
    
    1) There is no longer any Amtrak service between Lindenwold and
    Atlantic City;
    
    2) R5 terminates at Downingtown - service past here to Parkesburg has
    been cut;
    
    3) R2 service now goes all the way to Newark, Delaware;
    
    4) Eastwick station is now open on the R1 Airport line; and
    
    5) It isn't made apparent that the NJ Transit Atlantic City line
    serves 30th Street Station.
    
    Keep in mind that the "1990 map" you mention was done in two different
    versions. The "blue" suburban map and the "orange" city map. What
    REALLY infuriated me when I first visited Philly was that these maps
    (I had to get them at the newsstand at 30th Street) ARE NOT FREE!!!
    SEPTA charges $3.95 (or something similar) for each of them. To me
    this is worse than WMATA's bus system maps which you also have to pay
    for. I think this is just bad public information policy. Especially
    since I grew up in "The City" (if you have to ask which one then you
    should probably visit another site...) where borough bus maps and
    subway maps are gratis. Sometimes, I think New Yorkers simply do not
    realize how good they've got it.
    
    I've been told all the usual phony reasons for not having a system map
    readily available: they cost too much to print, they're hard to keep
    in stock at each booth, no one really uses them, etc. My answer is
    this: About a month ago the Baltimore City Paper ran a long cover
    story by one of their reporters who elected to be "car free" for a
    week. This story is generally a sad and telling commentary on the
    state of mass transit in America today. The reporter complained for
    about 3 or 4 paragraphs about the lack of an easily available system
    map and how she had to spend entire nights with stacks of schedules
    "learning" the system. Wonder why she went back into her car? At least
    the Maryland MTA printed a free "Ride Guide" about two years ago, but
    it is VERY hard to find. Of course, the Maryland MTA has a new
    "Tourist Ride Guide" (which primarily shows the Inner Harbor/downtown
    area) which is easy to find. Don't get me wrong - these types of maps
    are fine ideas - but shouldn't the folks who live beyond downtown in
    Philly or Baltimore have free maps as well?
    
    Two final points:
    
    Alot of the "day planner" types of books have a refill available; I've
    seen one with a mini version of the SEPTA rail map on one side and
    Center City buses on the other.
    
    The "line maps" which are posted in subway cars only have been
    recently redone on the Broad Street Subway.
    
    
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NEXT>8700
PREVIOUS>8673
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:05 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 22, 1998 at 11:17:49:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
    posted by Peter Rosa on January 22, 1998 at 09:24:27:
    
    I would not rule out the possibility that you did visit the mysterious
    lower platform. The official reason that it was originally built was
    to be used in "crush loading" situations such as you described. The
    only deterioration I have heard about is in the wall tiles, which
    would be hidden behind the train. Any announcement about going
    upstairs to catch an A or C would not have anticipated your desire to
    go back uptown, but was meant to keep passengers from waiting there
    expecting an A or C to follow. The fact that you noticed the platform
    offset after going upstairs tells me you were on a different platform
    when you first arrived, and that could only be the lower level.
    
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NEXT>8684
PREVIOUS>8676
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:08 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 22, 1998 at 12:24:32:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line,
    Working Draft posted by Mike Berson on January 22, 1998 at 10:03:09:
    
    Thanks, Mike.
    
    I think you're right about the D going to Coney Island and the locals
    terminating in Brighton Beach. My memory wasn't as sharp as it is now
    late last night! And I *should've* known that - I lived on Brighton
    6th Street at the time and had a great view of the Brighton Beach
    station .....
    
    I'll have to dig out my old subway maps (I know I have one for 1968 &
    1972 somewhere ....)
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8687
PREVIOUS>8683
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:10 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 22, 1998 at 12:26:10:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line,
    Working Draft posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 22, 1998 at
    04:04:59:
    
    Actually, I wasn't aware of these extra services. Can you elaborate??
    A theatre service??
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8693
PREVIOUS>8659
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New NYC Subway Map
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:14 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 22, 1998 at 12:48:56:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New NYC Subway Map posted by Daniel on January 21,
    1998 at 14:04:32:
    
    > This map that you are discussing... Will it be available in all 468
    > stations, or would you have to pick one up at the major transfer
    hubs in
    > the system (i.e. Penn Sta., Grand Central, etc.)?
    
    I am assuming it is a replacement for the current map, and that it
    will be available at all 468 stations at some point.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8718
PREVIOUS>8666
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:16 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 22, 1998 at 13:12:55:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff posted by Joe-M on
    January 21, 1998 at 23:32:39:
    
    Yup, Sac it is!
    
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NEXT>8688
PREVIOUS>8684
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:19 1998
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Posted by Ed Sachs on January 22, 1998 at 13:18:46:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line,
    Working Draft posted by Mike Berson on January 22, 1998 at 10:03:09:
    
    Except for a short period following the opening of the Christie St.
    connection, all Brighton Local services went to Coney Island and most
    Brighton Express services terminated at Brighton Beach. In 1967, they
    tried doing it the other way around, and found that it slowed the
    trains waiting to cross-over north of Brighton Beach station, as it is
    the express tracks that lead into the terminating tracks at Brighton
    Beach and the local tracks which lead into the through tracks.
    
    Some notes: The early 1960s "Banker's Specials" ran local Coney Island
    to Kings Highway, then express to DeKalb, then via tunnel to Chamber
    St. (AM rush), deadheading back over the Manhattan Bridge. In the PM
    rush, they followed the reverse route, deadheading into Manhattan over
    the bridge. I recall in those days that the Brighton Express used
    triplex equipment, except for two 6-car sets of standards which were
    used rush hours for the "Bankers Specials" and mid-days for regular
    Brighton Express service (Brighton Beach to 57th St.)
    
    
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NEXT>8690
PREVIOUS>8687
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:22 1998
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Posted by Ed Sachs on January 22, 1998 at 13:20:44:

   In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line,
    Working Draft posted by Mark S Feinman on January 22, 1998 at
    00:15:12:
    
    You might want to mention the branch to Sheepshead Bay Race Track. You
    can still see the trackways for the branch south of Neck Rd. station.
    I'm not sure when it was abandoned, I believe that the race track
    closed around 1910-1915.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff; update
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:24 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 22, 1998 at 13:32:47:

   In Reply to: [7]LA Subway Funding Cutoff posted by Gary Jacobi on
    January 21, 1998 at 16:36:56:
    
    This is a cutoff of Federal funds, but apparently that is(or was)their
    main source of money. The Blue line will be finished, and the red line
    built out to Universal City, but no extensions to the west or east.
    Apparently, the spectre of all this money down a rathole has started
    Congress questioning the overall efficacy of funding new transit
    systems nationwide. My source's personal feelings are that there will
    be no sale of surplus cars, that they can be used on already built
    sections.
    
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NEXT>8698
PREVIOUS>8688
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:27 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 22, 1998 at 14:13:26:

   In Reply to: [7]New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line,
    Working Draft posted by Mark S Feinman on January 22, 1998 at
    00:15:12:
    
    There appears to be a conflict between the start of service over the
    Fulton St. El, listed twice as having occurred 1896, and the
    construction of the ramp to permit the connection shown as 1900.
    
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NEXT>8694
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>geoffrey skelsey 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Park Avenue highway tunnels
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:29 1998
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Posted by geoffrey skelsey on January 22, 1998 at 14:41:40:

   Can anyone help with an aspect of the present Park Avenue highway
    tunnels, now in use between 33rd and 40th streets? As I understand it
    these were originally part of the NY & H RR before Grand Central moved
    uptown in the 1870s. I have read somewhere that they were then used
    for street railway service, eventually electrified, and in operation
    until 1935. But a plan I have of NY surface transportation in 1909
    doesn't shew them. Were they in fact part of the city street railway
    system, TARS or whatever?Any help gratefully received.
    
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NEXT>8749
PREVIOUS>8681
POSTER>DB 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New NYC Subway Map (& Lack of SEPTA Maps)
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:32 1998
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Posted by DB on January 22, 1998 at 14:48:04:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: New NYC Subway Map (& Lack of SEPTA Maps) posted
    by Michael S. Buglak on January 22, 1998 at 08:50:20:
    
    Re the SEPTA:
    
    Though it is not a system map in any event such as the other systems
    use, if you pick up the FREE timetables they list a map with all the
    conncections for that route:
    
    i.e. the MFSE lists all connecting bus routes, etc. The R3 also
    features a similar map.
    
    Again, I know that this is not a new system wide map, but at least it
    is current enough to list 125 as the bus route to KOP.
    
    Well we are on the subject of updates, can I assume that SEPTA is
    waiting into the renovations of the Market Sub/El before replacing the
    signage within the stations? I know in an earlier post, I pointed out
    the lack of sinage in stations, but many refer to "proposed" stations
    that have been opened.
    
    Also, Isn't Bridge-Pratt supposed to be called "Frankford Terminal" -
    - even though the sinage still reads Bridge Pratt? The new M-4s say
    Frankford, the maps at the (very nicely) rehabbed el-s on the
    Frankford end refer it to "Frankford Terminal" But the actual station
    reads "Bridge-Pratt"
    
    
    
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NEXT>8944
PREVIOUS>8685
POSTER>sdc_foti 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New NYC Subway Map
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:35 1998
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Posted by sdc_foti on January 22, 1998 at 15:25:28:

   In Reply to: [7]New NYC Subway Map posted by Mark S Feinman on January
    21, 1998 at 13:27:32:
    
    What No free
    maps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    shit that
    sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    !!!!
    
    Foti-
    
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NEXT>8716
PREVIOUS>8691
POSTER>Fernando Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Park Avenue highway tunnels
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:37 1998
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Posted by Fernando Perez on January 22, 1998 at 15:44:49:

   In Reply to: [8]Park Avenue highway tunnels posted by geoffrey skelsey
    on January 22, 1998 at 14:41:40:
    
    The tunnel was in fact used by New York Railways "Green lines" until
    March of 1936. The trackage was owned by the New York and Harlem
    Railroad and leased. Because of severe congestion at Madison and 42 St
    the Madison Av trolleys turned east at 42 st and then south onto Park
    and 4th av's. Where they entered the tunnel and exited at 33rd St.
    There is a picture of a trolley exiting this portal in the book
    New York Railways The green line. ISBN#0-934088-30-6
    You can buy this book at several trolley museums and I just saw a copy
    of it last weekend at the Baltimore Streetcar museum.
    
    
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NEXT>8714
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Daniele 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>information about JFK express
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:40 1998
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Posted by Daniele on January 22, 1998 at 16:01:54:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Park Avenue highway tunnels posted by Fernando
    Perez on January 22, 1998 at 15:44:49:
    
    Hi ! My name is Daniele, I'm from Italy and I would like to know
    something about the brief service of the JFK express
    
    
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NEXT>8699
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Chicago's Green (East 63rd St./Cottage Grove) Line
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:42 1998
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Posted by Timothy on January 22, 1998 at 16:36:53:

   When I was in Chicago back in September, I rode the Green Line to
    Cottage
    Grove, which is currently the last stop on the former Jackson Park
    Line,
    and I've noticed that the old el structure still existed beyond the
    Cottage Grove Station. A friend of mine went to Chicago last weekend,
    and
    also rode the Green Line to Cottage Grove, but he said that there is
    no
    el structure east of Cottage Grove Station. Was it demolished? If so,
    When? Are there still any existing remnants of the old Jackson Park
    Line
    el structure along 63rd Street, between Cottage Grove, and Jackson
    Park?
    Fortunately, I did manage to get some photos of the old el structure,
    as
    seen looking east from Cottage Grove, both at street level, under the
    el,
    and from platform level.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Michael S. Buglak 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Lack of SEPTA Maps (Also Answer to DB's Question)
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:45 1998
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Posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 22, 1998 at 16:59:42:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New NYC Subway Map (& Lack of SEPTA Maps) posted
    by DB on January 22, 1998 at 14:48:04:
    
    It's true that each SEPTA route timetable lists the NUMBERS of the
    connecting lines, but it usually doesn't list the DESTINATION of them
    except for the rail lines. For example, the Market-Frankford timetable
    lists "125" as a connecting bus, but it doesn't say anywhere that
    Route 125 goes to King of Prussia, or that you can also get to King of
    Prussia by
    1) Taking the Route 124 bus which also runs from Center City to
    K.O.P., along with Route 125, or
    2) Taking the R6 Norristown to Norristown Transportation Center, then
    the Route 99 bus to K.O.P. or
    3) Taking the Market-Frankford Line to 69th Street, then the Route 100
    trolley to King Manor, then Route 99 to K.O.P.,
    among other ways.
    The point I was making is that a stranger to SEPTA would not know that
    a certain route may or may not go to his/her destination. It's much
    easier to look up "how to get to" on 1 map than a hundred or more
    timetables. (See Will's reply to my post for another view on the
    subject.)
    
    As for DB's question on "Bridge-Pratt" vs. "Frankford Terminal", they
    mean one & the same facility, but SEPTA seems to use "Bridge-Pratt" or
    "Bridge Street" when referring to the elevated station, & "Frankford
    Terminal" when referring to the associated bus/trackless trolley
    terminal at the station.
    I agree that it's confusing to someone not familiar with SEPTA! I do
    understand that the new terminal at that location is known by SEPTA as
    "Frankford Transportation Center". (Not that it makes this situation
    any easier to understand, but SEPTA has never been known for common
    sense...)
    
    Michael S. Buglak
    
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NEXT>8702
PREVIOUS>8690
POSTER>Steve B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:48 1998
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Posted by Steve B on January 22, 1998 at 18:26:00:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line,
    Working Draft posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 22, 1998 at
    04:04:59:
    
    Well written, indeed.
    
    I would suggest including information on when letter markings first
    appeared on BMT routes. Over the years, BMT rolling stock varied in
    this regard: the Standards had no bulkhead signs, while the Triplex
    and multisectional units did. The R-16s, which ran on the Eastern
    division at first, initially had BMT numbers and IND letters. The R-27
    and R-30 cars ushered in BMT letter markings when they debuted in
    1960-61. Most of them were assigned to at least the Brighton line at
    first; some may have gone to the Sea Beach. At that time, Brighton
    express trains were designated with the letter Q; during the mid-60s
    they ran on weekdays only (much the same as today's Q). Brighton
    locals running via the Montague St. tunnel carried a QT marking and
    ran at all times. The QB ran when the Q wasn't running; it ran on
    weekends all day and during week nights via the Manhattan Bridge and
    made all local stops. Unless I'm wrong, Triplex units running on the
    Brighton line displayed the numeral "1" regardless of whether they ran
    local or express. (Or did they run as expresses only?) I can still
    remember seeing QBs of R-27s on the Broadway line in Manhattan on
    Saturdays in 1967 before the Chrystie St. connection opened. The R-32s
    continued this letter trend. This letter code coexisted with the older
    number markings on the Southern Division until the Big Change, when
    all number markings were officially dropped and letter markings were
    adopted on the Eastern Division lines.
    
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NEXT>8703
PREVIOUS>8696
POSTER>BJ 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Chicago's Green (East 63rd St./Cottage Grove) Line
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:50 1998
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Posted by BJ on January 22, 1998 at 19:14:59:

   In Reply to: [8]Chicago's Green (East 63rd St./Cottage Grove) Line
    posted by Timothy on January 22, 1998 at 16:36:53:
    
    
    The old green Line El Structure was started to be torn down a few
    months ago and isn't complete yet. It will take a while before it is
    completely gone.
    
    In my personal opion as a Chicagoan, ( and many people agree with me)
    the old structure should have been taken down a long time ago or
    atleast when the CTA redid the green line. Even if they wanted to
    build the El farther east then Cottage Grove they should have torn it
    down right away. Old Structure is no good, it was completly rebuilt on
    the part of the line that still is in use in that are.
    
    Even as a subway fan, I would rather read about old EL structure, then
    have the city leave it up. IT does no good and just makes the
    neighborhood look poor. It looks crappy having old rusted out steel
    above the street that looks like it could fall over at any minute.
    
    On the other hand, I'm glad the green line was renovated and is now
    running again. It is a great way for people to get around. Especially
    during rush hours.
    
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NEXT>8706
PREVIOUS>8682
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:52 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 22, 1998 at 19:50:19:

   In Reply to: [8]Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
    posted by wsteil on January 21, 1998 at 23:08:00:
    
    The last time a train with customers aboard ended up at that platform,
    the train crew and tower operator were all removed from service. I
    would, therefore, say choice 3 is the most likely. However, if you
    give me the date and approximate time (I suppose a car # would be too
    much to ask for) I can check it out for you. In the meantime, give my
    regards to Rod (Serling, that is). Dah Dah Dah Dah, Dah Dah Dah Dah
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8644
POSTER>Larry Littlefield 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New NYC Subway Map (NYCT or MTA??) Attempt #2
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:54 1998
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Posted by Larry Littlefield on January 22, 1998 at 19:51:50:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: New NYC Subway Map (NYCT or MTA??) Attempt #2
    posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 21, 1998 at 14:58:13:
    
    I would like to see all the rail services on one map, rather than on
    two sides. So I created a "cartogram," with the size of each of the
    region's counties adjusted by the number working there. The dense
    inner counties, especially Manhattan, get really big, while Putnam
    county gets really small. This should allow everything on one scale.
    Some buddies at NYC City Planning, who are adept at these things, have
    been entering this map into the computer. This will produce an
    interesting color poster, which I hope I can convince the Department
    to sell if it is ever finished. If I have time, I will then draw all
    the rail lines and perhaps all the major roads as well.
    
    Of course, a cartogram is not geographically correct. Indeed, since
    Manhattan is so large, it acts like a black hole: all the other
    counties are stretched and smushed against it in order to maintain
    their approximate shapes and positions (we put a real map, with
    counties in the same color as on the cartogram, as an inset, along
    with a table of employment). Any road or transit map produced on this
    base would be very schematic.
    
    On the other hand, the map is correct in a way that a geographic map
    is not. Most of my family has moved away from New York, and my brother
    lives in Tulsa. "I would never live in New York" he says, "because of
    the traffic. In Tulsa I can get anywhere to visit anyone or anything
    in 15 minutes." My response is that only 500,000 people live in Tulsa,
    and I can easily get to locations where 500,000 people live within
    Brooklyn. Its just that in the NY area, there are another 500,000 next
    to that, and another 500,000 next to that, etc. I find that distances
    warped by employment reflect travel time better than actual distance,
    given traffic congestion. In reality, Manhattan is only a couple of
    miles wide while Putnam County is 20 miles north to south. But during
    rush hour, it would probably take longer to get across Manhattan than
    to get across Putnam.
    
    
    
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NEXT>8704
PREVIOUS>8698
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
DATE>Jan 26 12:32:56 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 22, 1998 at 19:56:03:

   In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line,
    Working Draft posted by Mark S Feinman on January 22, 1998 at
    00:15:12:
    
    I'm not much for history but there is one error in your current
    history. While the R-68As have been taken off the line, the R-68s have
    not. They continue to service the entire D line. To this date, the TA
    has not returned the R-68As and likely won't until the March service
    changes.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8699
POSTER>Alan Follett 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Chicago's Green (East 63rd St./Cottage Grove) Line
DATE>Jan 26 12:33:00 1998
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Posted by Alan Follett on January 22, 1998 at 19:56:48:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Chicago's Green (East 63rd St./Cottage Grove) Line
    posted by BJ on January 22, 1998 at 19:14:59:
    
    
    The Jackson Park line east of Cottage Grove lost most of its reason
    for existence in the early Eighties, after the CTA's bridge over the
    IC main was condemned, forcing suspension of service east of
    University Avenue. The original terminal at Stony Island was a major
    bus connection point; University was not. In the reconstruction a
    couple of years ago the structure was rebuilt as far east as
    Dorchester, just west of the IC, about halfway between University and
    the former Stony Island terminal; since there were no plans to restore
    the bridge over the IC, the rebuilt structure was level, without the
    eastbound upgrade which had been needed to clear the IC. After the
    Green Line reconstruction was underway, community sentiment developed
    against operation east of Cottage Grove; apparently the idea was that
    the traffic obstruction and visual detriment of the "L" structure
    interfered with plans for redevelopment of 63rd Street, and outweighed
    the transportation advantages of the extra 3/4 mile of service.
    (NIMBYism isn't just confined to suburbia!) Result, the newly-rebuilt
    structure was torn down beginning last September 27 without ever
    having seen a train.
    
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NEXT>8751
PREVIOUS>8702
POSTER>Daniel 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
DATE>Jan 26 12:33:03 1998
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Posted by Daniel on January 22, 1998 at 20:01:27:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line,
    Working Draft posted by Ed Sachs on January 22, 1998 at 13:20:44:
    
    Ed:
    
    Where do you see this trackway... On the Coney Island-bound side or
    the Manhattan-bound side?
    Also, (and this question is to all) did this connection have anything
    to do with the former Sheepshead Bay branch of the LIRR?
    
    Just curious...
    Danny
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Path Signals & Speed Limits
DATE>Jan 26 12:33:05 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 22, 1998 at 20:07:00:

   The issue of speed on PATH was raised a while back. I recently
    received a copy of the 1973 PATH rule book. Per their rule #100, the
    following speed restrictions are listed.
    Maximum speed within any tunnel is 40 MPH
    Maximum speed otherwise is 55 between the portals an Newark as
    follows:
    Westbound between signals 747Z to 18LX
    Eastbound between signals 58RX to R8X
    
    I'm currently going over their (very odd) signal aspects and
    indications and hope to have them scanned this weekend.
    
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NEXT>8711
PREVIOUS>8700
POSTER>Daniel 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
DATE>Jan 26 12:33:14 1998
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Posted by Daniel on January 22, 1998 at 20:08:06:

   In Reply to: [8]Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
    posted by wsteil on January 21, 1998 at 23:08:00:
    
    By far... the spookiest story I've heard... What makes it even scarier
    is that a neighbor of mine in NJ told me the exact same story (she too
    is a train buff)...
    
    CAN IT ALL BE TRUE?!
    
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NEXT>8708
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Doug in Boston 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Pennsylvania Electrification to Penn Station
DATE>Jan 26 12:33:18 1998
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Posted by Doug in Boston on January 22, 1998 at 20:29:03:

   I know that the diesel/electric locomotive switch-over at New Haven is
    done because New York City passed a law in the early part of the
    century forbidding steam locomotives from entering the City.
    
    But how did the Pennsy handle this prior to electrification in the
    1930s? Were trains coming from the south switched from steam to
    electric at some point ? I've never seen anything on this.
    
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NEXT>8761
PREVIOUS>8707
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Pennsylvania Electrification to Penn Station
DATE>Jan 26 12:33:22 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 22, 1998 at 21:17:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Pennsylvania Electrification to Penn Station posted by
    Doug in Boston on January 22, 1998 at 20:29:03:
    
    Well, when Penn station was opened, it opened first to LIRR traffic,
    on the 600 (now 750) volt DC third rail system. The tunnels to NJ,
    when opened, were equipped with thirds rail too, all the way out to
    the "Manhattan Transfer", where you switched to steam or electric,
    depending on if you were entering or leaving NY. This rail still
    remains to in the tunnel, but was removed beyond it. Like the NY
    central, I believe PRR used a "overhead third rail" system for the
    loner switches, to prevent the DD-1 locomotives from getting stuck on
    a switch. The LIRR sometimes used a flatcar with jumper cables and
    shoes (!) to bridge the gaps. Of course the MP 54s didn't have this
    problem.
    
    When the wires were strung up, the transfer was eleminated. Around
    1917, the Hell Gate bridge was built, along with a connection to the
    NH main line to Boston - and the wire was extended to New Haven from
    Stamford.
    
    The New York Central never ran A.C. equipment, they were the first to
    electrify, up to Croton-Harmon and the Harlem line. These are DC third
    rail, but under running, as opposed to the LIRR's over running rail.
    New Haven line trains run DC up to Mount Vernon, and switch (on the
    fly!) to A.C. A few other systems in the US switch from rail to wire,
    but I believe only the New Haven also changes from low voltage DC to
    high voltage AC.
    
    PRR commuter trains into Penn were always AC I think. The Hoboken
    lines were run by Lacawanna, and were DC 3kv overhead, and were the
    only DC 3kv MUs used in the US I think. Note that current Septic and
    NJT equipment are very simallar. The NJT stuff kinda looks crude with
    its open resistors on top - the Septa stuff has an M-2 style cover
    over its roof stuff.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8669
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: I hae a NJT map (was New NYC Subway Map )
DATE>Jan 26 12:33:24 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on January 22, 1998 at 21:34:50:

   In Reply to: [7]I hae a NJT map (was New NYC Subway Map ) posted by
    Joshua Caesar on January 22, 1998 at 08:00:55:
    
    Does NJ Transit have any published maps of its bus lines?
    
    
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NEXT>8734
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Could Someone Post the New Subway Map?
DATE>Jan 26 12:33:26 1998
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Posted by Nick on January 22, 1998 at 21:45:40:

   Hello,
    It was great to see the '85 map yesterday...it brought back some
    memories! I was wondering if someone could post the new subway
    map...it sounds like it has some nice new features. I'll pick one up
    eventually, but I never know when my next trip to NYC will be. Thank
    You!-Nick
    
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NEXT>8715
PREVIOUS>8706
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
DATE>Jan 26 12:33:28 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on January 22, 1998 at 21:54:56:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
    posted by Gary Jacobi on January 22, 1998 at 11:17:49:
    
    One way you might be able to tell which level is the lighting. Last I
    saw the lower level still used incandescent light bulbs. Another thing
    is that there can't be more than 2 stairs out of that area - almost
    all the other stairs have been cemented over. And last, the lower
    level has only one track - if you see any other tracks, you were on
    the main level.
    
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NEXT>8717
PREVIOUS>8674
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read
DATE>Jan 26 12:33:31 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on January 22, 1998 at 22:15:37:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read posted by
    Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 22, 1998 at 03:48:14:
    
    Actually, I encountered this problem a while ago, but I thought my
    browser history was corrupt. I cleared it and *presto!* all gone. For
    now.
    
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NEXT>8731
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Frankford Transportation Center (Was Lack of SEPTA Maps (Also Answer to
DATE>Jan 26 12:33:33 1998
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   In Reply to: [7]Lack of SEPTA Maps (Also Answer to DB's Question)
    posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 22, 1998 at 16:59:42:
    
    Sounds like the SEPTA I have come to know.
    
    As an aside I omitted... the M4's list the new destination as
    Frankford Transportation Center. When you say the new terminal are you
    referring to a new physical building on the site or the one-day
    rehabbed Frankford/Bridge/Pratt/Transportation Center - ? I could not
    tell if they were doing anything, it was dark when I was last there.
    
    
    
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NEXT>8723
PREVIOUS>8695
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: information about JFK express
DATE>Jan 26 12:33:35 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 22, 1998 at 22:39:24:

   In Reply to: [8]information about JFK express posted by Daniele on
    January 22, 1998 at 16:01:54:
    
    Daniele,
    
    The JFK Express began service in the late 1970's. It operated from
    57th Street/6 Ave, in Midtown Manhattan to the Howard Beach station in
    Queens where passengers then transferred to a shuttle bus which
    stopped at all terminals. The JFK Express made stops along 6th Ave at
    57th St, 47-50th St-Rockefeller Ctr., 42nd St, 34th St, West 4th St,
    and Canal Street, then Chambers St-World Trade Ctr, Broadway-Nassau
    Street and one stop in Downtown Brooklyn at Jay Street-Boro Hall. It
    then operated non-stop to Howard Beach. The service operated daily
    from approx 5 AM - 1 AM. It operated at 20 minute intervals. The
    equipment on the JFK Express were R-46 and at one point one could spot
    the occasional R-38 on the JFK Express. In it's last years during the
    late 1980's R-44 cars were used.
    
    
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NEXT>8724
PREVIOUS>8711
POSTER>subman23 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
DATE>Jan 26 12:33:38 1998
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Posted by subman23 on January 22, 1998 at 22:53:13:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
    posted by Daniel on January 22, 1998 at 20:08:06:
    
    Just to stress what Steve stated.
    
    It is not possible.. The lower level is dark and stairways are closed
    with gate and chain.
    
    
    Enter the twilight zone!
    
    
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NEXT>8722
PREVIOUS>8694
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Park Avenue highway tunnels
DATE>Jan 26 12:33:40 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 22, 1998 at 23:23:15:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Park Avenue highway tunnels posted by Fernando
    Perez on January 22, 1998 at 15:44:49:
    
    Fernando,
    
    Please recheck your e-mail address. Either it's bad or the AOL mail
    server was down (again).
    
    
    
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NEXT>8735
PREVIOUS>8712
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read
DATE>Jan 26 12:33:44 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 22, 1998 at 23:26:45:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read posted by
    Andrew Huie on January 22, 1998 at 22:15:37:
    
    My browser (Netscape 3) has read messages set to red, but on
    nysubway.org they still appear dark blue. Every other web site I visit
    that has a message board has the read messages in red. You figger it
    out. I also clean out the cache of EVERYTHING (Netcape re-establishes
    the .db file every time.
    
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NEXT>8719
PREVIOUS>8686
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff
DATE>Jan 26 12:33:47 1998
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Posted by Joe M on January 22, 1998 at 23:34:49:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff posted by Gary Jacobi on
    January 22, 1998 at 13:12:55:
    
    
    My wifes sister is in Davis. I will likely be out there this summer
    
    When I know whem I will be there I will need some advice on what parts
    of the light rail system to ride in there.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8718
POSTER>Jeffrey Davis 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff
DATE>Jan 26 12:33:51 1998
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Posted by Jeffrey Davis on January 22, 1998 at 23:52:39:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: LA Subway Funding Cutoff posted by Philip
    Nasadowski on January 21, 1998 at 19:37:38:
    
    Without getting too much into 'why', myself, the 'why' is more
    complicated than habitual auto lust. Mr. Littlefield's response
    captures some of the problem. The rest of the story is that LA's MTA
    became much more of a trough for barely overseen rail contracts than a
    serious developer of public transit. A real loss for everyone (the
    transit, not *necessarily* the trains).
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Jeffrey Davis 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Talk on 63rd St. tunnel...
DATE>Jan 26 12:33:55 1998
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Posted by Jeffrey Davis on January 22, 1998 at 23:56:11:

   Did anyone make it to the talk on the 63rd St. tunnel at Cooper Union
    earlier this evening? I couldnt attend on account of work, and am
    particularly interested to hear what is planned for that line(s),
    western Queens, and The Grand Design. A very brief summary of the talk
    would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
    
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NEXT>8729
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Commuter Horror Stories
DATE>Jan 26 12:34:00 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 22, 1998 at 23:56:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Just another ride home posted by aaron on January 21,
    1998 at 12:49:51:
    
    Tuesday AM, I was on LIRR train 2009 (5:29 from Ronkonkoma) As we
    passed through Bellerose, the Conductor radio'd the Command Center to
    report that the 3rd West car was infested with mice. The person on the
    other end of the radio conversation told the Conductor that they would
    swap the equipment at Penn Station. What he should have told him was
    to "Pick up a cat in Jamaica".
    
    Let's face it, there are horror stories everywhere. It's just that in
    NY there are more of them because we have more people, more trains,
    and many more skels.
    
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NEXT>8877
PREVIOUS>8716
POSTER>Joshua Caesar 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Park Avenue highway tunnels
DATE>Jan 26 12:34:03 1998
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Posted by Joshua Caesar on January 23, 1998 at 00:01:21:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Park Avenue highway tunnels posted by Dan Lawrence
    on January 22, 1998 at 23:23:15:
    
    I think the problem is that he put a space in his e-mail address, and
    therefore the "mailto: " html tag won't function properly. AOL will
    allow e-mail addresses with spaces in them, but for internet e-mail
    the spaces have to be ignored.
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>8728
PREVIOUS>8714
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: information about JFK express
DATE>Jan 26 12:34:06 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 23, 1998 at 00:41:48:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: information about JFK express posted by Wayne
    Johnson on January 22, 1998 at 22:39:24:
    
    I know that the fare on the JFK Express was higher than the usual fair
    then, but do you know what it was?
    
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NEXT>8725
PREVIOUS>8715
POSTER>wsteil 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
DATE>Jan 26 12:34:08 1998
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Posted by wsteil on January 23, 1998 at 00:44:26:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
    posted by Andrew Huie on January 22, 1998 at 21:54:56:
    
    There was only one track visible, the platform was on the east side of
    the the downtown E train. Several people got off, and some followed
    the signs to the DOWNTOWN & EXIT stairway, while the rest of us took
    another stairs (UPTOWN A/C/E) to the island platform upstairs. At no
    time did I go the mezzanine, cross over, and then go back down. I
    don't recall the lighting as being incandescent - I would usually
    notice that fact, partly from the old 42d St/7th Av IRT entrances with
    the 5 light bulbs over the stairs, which I always thought was cool.
    The lighting was the standard cold white fluorescent, common in the
    older stations.
    (I've been through the 8th Ave IND mezzanine many times before, in
    order to avoid the rain, getting to and from the 42d St IRT 1/2/3 & 7
    station and the Milford Plaza (nee Manhattan) Hotel at 44th & 8th. I
    have seen the trains downstairs through the open stairways while
    walking by. I also recall a Transit Police Post on the Mezzanine
    between 43d and 44th.)
    
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NEXT>8726
PREVIOUS>8724
POSTER>wsteil 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
DATE>Jan 26 12:34:10 1998
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Posted by wsteil on January 23, 1998 at 01:16:06:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
    posted by Steve on January 22, 1998 at 19:50:19:
    
    The date was Dec 16, 1997
    Time into the subway at 53rd St & 5th Av station was about approx
    6:30-6:45 pm.
    
    There was a loooong wait for the E; the platform was completely full
    by the time the train arrived - of course, the cars were full, too. A
    steady stream of people were also taking the stairs down to the lower
    level uptown & Queens platform.
    I got on the front half of the train. More people got on than got off
    at 7th Av and also at 50th.
    In fact, in five days, I had used $24 worth of Metrocard trips, and
    with only one exception on Sunday morning, the trains were full to
    jampacked. The only thing missing on the rush hour 4/5/6 were people
    on the platforms hired by the TA to push the customers into the cars,
    Tokyo-style
    
    I was fortunate to get tickets to the Tues 12/16 performance of
    Chicago at the Schubert. At those prices, I couldn't take any more
    time to scope everything out. Something to do on my next trip! By the
    way, the show was great!
    
    Thanks in advance for your help.
    
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NEXT>8727
PREVIOUS>8725
POSTER>wsteil 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
DATE>Jan 26 12:34:12 1998
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Posted by wsteil on January 23, 1998 at 01:30:15:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
    posted by Daniel on January 22, 1998 at 20:08:06:
    
    Can two train/subway buffs have the *same* out-of-body experience, on
    the E train??? (Oh, my God . . . what if she was on the same train???)
    
    
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NEXT>8737
PREVIOUS>8726
POSTER>wsteil 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
DATE>Jan 26 12:34:15 1998
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Posted by wsteil on January 23, 1998 at 01:40:36:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
    posted by Gary Jacobi on January 22, 1998 at 11:17:49:
    
    I agree. I was down on the lower (or third, counting the mezz.) level
    Rush Hour platform.
    
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NEXT>8730
PREVIOUS>8723
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: information about JFK express
DATE>Jan 26 12:34:17 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 23, 1998 at 02:36:26:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: information about JFK express posted by Adam on
    January 23, 1998 at 00:41:48:
    
    Don't know the fare, but anyone remember the ads??
    
    "Take the train to the plane, the train to the plane..."
    
    AFAIR, it wasn't exactly a spectacular success, which doesn't speak
    well for a new line to the airports...
    
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NEXT>8742
PREVIOUS>8721
POSTER>Sammy 
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SUBJECT>Re: Commuter Horror Stories
DATE>Jan 26 12:34:19 1998
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Posted by Sammy on January 23, 1998 at 05:11:52:

   In Reply to: [8]Commuter Horror Stories posted by Steve on January 22,
    1998 at 23:56:22:
    
    I'm afraid Steve, as per usual, you have things a bit wrong. See,
    there are plenty of vagrant peoples and beggers and con artists, etc.
    What the damn transit authority does not realize is that the longer
    trains sit, the more opportunity there is like this stuff to occur. If
    the conductor had any brains, he would have radioed ahead and at least
    gotten the first train to abut the platform. People could have then
    left the train and sought other means of getting to where they are
    supposed to go. As for the MTA, their brainless "planning for
    situations" can render the whole system impotent. If I was that woman,
    I'd sue the MTA for every penny it had.
    I think those at the MTA should get their heads out from up their
    arses and do something about it.
    
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NEXT>8732
PREVIOUS>8728
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: information about JFK express
DATE>Jan 26 12:34:22 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on January 23, 1998 at 07:53:08:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: information about JFK express posted by Philip
    Nasadowski on January 23, 1998 at 02:36:26:
    
    I vaugely remember the fare being $2.00 or $2.50. It was collected by
    the conductor on board (that is, the "additional fare" over and above
    the token used to enter the system). There was also a TA cop on every
    train.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8713
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Frankford Transportation Center (Was Lack of SEPTA Maps (Also Answer to
DATE>Jan 26 12:34:29 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: Frankford Transportation Center (Was Lack of SEPTA
    Maps (Also Answer to DB's Question) posted by DB on January 22, 1998
    at 22:27:44:
    
    I believe that Frankford T.C. will be a new building altogether. I'm
    not sure if any of the existing terminal will be retained.
    Construction on the site has not yet begun, AFAIK, but I've haven't
    been there recently, so don't quote me on that. Does anyone have more
    info on this?
    
    Michael S. Buglak
    
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NEXT>8733
PREVIOUS>8730
POSTER>aaron 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: information about JFK express
DATE>Jan 26 12:34:32 1998
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Posted by aaron on January 23, 1998 at 08:14:28:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: information about JFK express posted by Todd
    Glickman on January 23, 1998 at 07:53:08:
    
    No, no! The fair was much higher, $5 or $6. Everyone got smart and
    realized you could just go on the "A" train as it ran on the same
    track
    as the JFK during express hours...
    
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NEXT>8736
PREVIOUS>8732
POSTER>Steve B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: information about JFK express
DATE>Jan 26 12:34:35 1998
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Posted by Steve B on January 23, 1998 at 08:52:11:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: information about JFK express posted by aaron on
    January 23, 1998 at 08:14:28:
    
    I rode the JFK Express once, in October 1984, and paid $5.10 on the
    train. The subway fare at the time was 90 cents, so it came to $6.00
    when all was said and done.
    
    
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NEXT>8738
PREVIOUS>8710
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map?
DATE>Jan 26 12:34:37 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 23, 1998 at 09:01:58:

   In Reply to: [8]Could Someone Post the New Subway Map? posted by Nick
    on January 22, 1998 at 21:45:40:
    
    I'd suggest looking at the official MTA web site for it.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8717
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read
DATE>Jan 26 12:34:41 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 23, 1998 at 09:05:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Message titles falsely appearing as read posted by
    Dan Lawrence on January 22, 1998 at 23:26:45:
    
    Netscape allows you to set your own colors for links and visited links
    but also allows the web page author to suggest what colors should be
    used for links. IIRC, there's an option in Netscape to override the
    "suggested" colors and always use your defaults. Sounds like you
    defined your own link colors but didn't set the option to always use
    your link colors...
    
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NEXT>8757
PREVIOUS>8733
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: information about JFK express
DATE>Jan 26 12:34:45 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 23, 1998 at 09:06:07:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: information about JFK express posted by Steve B on
    January 23, 1998 at 08:52:11:
    
    Yes, I believe the fare was $6.00 when the service was discontinued.
    When it started in the late 1970 I think the fare was either $2.50 or
    $3.00. Either way you paid your regular fare (then .50) and the extra
    was collected on the train.
    
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NEXT>8750
PREVIOUS>8727
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
DATE>Jan 26 12:34:47 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 23, 1998 at 12:10:35:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
    posted by Andrew Huie on January 22, 1998 at 21:54:56:
    
    I think it's pretty clear from these postings that the present state
    of repair of the lower platform has improved over what is shown in the
    "abandoned stations" pictures. Can someone in NYC confirm this with
    MTA?
    
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NEXT>8861
PREVIOUS>8734
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map?
DATE>Jan 26 12:34:50 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 23, 1998 at 12:18:33:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map? posted by
    David Pirmann on January 23, 1998 at 09:01:58:
    
    The map available at the MTA website was changed months ago.
    Presumably the delay in announcement was needed to get copies printed.
    The only easy way we out here in the sticks can be sure is for someone
    with the newly printed map in hand to check it against the website
    version, and report if they are one and the same.
    
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NEXT>8770
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Sheepshead Bay Race Track
DATE>Jan 26 12:34:54 1998
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Posted by Ed Sachs on January 23, 1998 at 12:25:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line,
    Working Draft posted by Daniel on January 22, 1998 at 20:01:27:
    
    South of Neck Rd. station, on the southbound (Coney Island Bound)
    side, you can see a descending trackway. Around Ave. X, there is an
    underpass below the tracks where the southbound trains to the race
    track turned off. I doubt that the northbound side trackway still
    exists, probably gone when they built houses along E. 16th St. in the
    1960s.
    
    Also at Neck Rd. (and also at Ave M/Elm Ave.), I believe that you can
    still see stairs which led to the Manhattan Beach RR stations just
    east of the Brighton line.
    
    More on the race track:
    I believe that it covered an area which extended from Ave. X to Ave.
    Z, from Ocean Ave. to a few blocks east of Nostrand Ave. I remember in
    the 1950s some vacant lots which had remnants of grandstand
    foundations.
    
    
    
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NEXT>8890
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Triplex Head End Signs
DATE>Jan 26 12:34:56 1998
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Posted by Ed Sachs on January 23, 1998 at 12:34:37:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line,
    Working Draft posted by Steve B on January 22, 1998 at 18:26:00:
    
    The Triplexes were generally not used on the Brighton Local (although
    they did appear occasionally, and did then carry the number '1'). For
    a brief period (around 1962), they were used on Saturday Brighton
    Beach - Franklin Ave. local service, and carried the number '7' (at
    that time, Saturday Q train ran Coney Island - Astoria, via bridge,
    express in Brooklyn, local in Manhattan).
    
    One unique feature of the Triplexes was that you could tell a 'via
    bridge' from a 'via tunnel' train from the head end sign. The 'via
    bridge' trains had the head end route number and destination
    illuminated in green, the 'via tunnel' trains had them illuminated in
    white. (The Saturday '7' line service mentioned above was 'via
    tunnel').
    
    
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NEXT>8857
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Theater Service
DATE>Jan 26 12:34:59 1998
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Posted by Ed Sachs on January 23, 1998 at 12:56:54:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line,
    Working Draft posted by Mark S Feinman on January 22, 1998 at
    12:26:10:
    
    I believe that the Theater Service was the 'via Bridge Local' night
    service.
    Until the late 50s, the Brighton Express ran Mon - Sat, AM rush
    through
    early evening (around 7pm). From about 7pm to around midnight, the
    'via Bridge Local' or 'Theater Specials' ran local, via bridge, 57 St.
    - Coney Island. After midnight, the Brighton Locals ran via tunnel. I
    think at that time that the sunday Brighton Locals ran via bridge -- I
    don't know if this was also considered Theater Service.
    
    
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NEXT>8926
PREVIOUS>8729
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Commuter Horror Stories
DATE>Jan 26 12:35:02 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 23, 1998 at 13:05:50:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Commuter Horror Stories posted by Sammy on January
    23, 1998 at 05:11:52:
    
    Let me give my reading as to why good decisions are so seldom made by
    bureaucrats and their employees. If the operator of the aformentioned
    "Barf train" had thought about passing the signal and getting the
    first car up to the platform, he would have considered the likelyhood
    of repremand versus the possible payoff for using his head. A citation
    for preventing chunks from being blown all over a valued customer?
    Obviously not going to happen! And so we all become unresponsive to
    the public because all we remember of co-workers exercising individual
    initiative is their punishment!
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8677
POSTER>Steve B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: memorabilia
DATE>Jan 26 12:35:04 1998
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Posted by Steve B on January 23, 1998 at 13:26:56:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: memorabilia posted by Charles Fiori on January 22,
    1998 at 10:09:32:
    
    How are you on bulkhead destination roll signs? I have such a sign,
    complete with roller mechanism, from an R-1/9. It has most of the
    familiar IND terminals; however "Coney Island" is painted over!
    Sacrilege! I've tried turpentine, paint remover, you name it, but to
    no avail. If you have a similar IND roller curtain, I'd be definitely
    interested. BMT bulkhead signs would be cool, too.
    
    Thanks!
    
    
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NEXT>8745
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Peggy de Bethune 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Mayor Hylan and the subways
DATE>Jan 26 12:35:08 1998
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Posted by Peggy de Bethune on January 23, 1998 at 14:14:41:

   Does anyone know anything about Mayor John Hylan who had to do with
    subway fares about 1920 or so. Does anyone know where I can get
    information about him?
    
    Thanks for any help.
    
    Peggy
    
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NEXT>8746
PREVIOUS>8744
POSTER>Peggy de Bethune 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Mayor Hylan and the subways
DATE>Jan 26 12:35:10 1998
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Posted by Peggy de Bethune on January 23, 1998 at 14:15:03:

   Does anyone know anything about Mayor John Hylan who had to do with
    subway fares about 1920 or so. Does anyone know where I can get
    information about him?
    
    Thanks for any help.
    
    Peggy
    
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NEXT>8748
PREVIOUS>8745
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways
DATE>Jan 26 12:35:12 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 23, 1998 at 14:23:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Mayor Hylan and the subways posted by Peggy de Bethune
    on January 23, 1998 at 14:14:41:
    
    First off, you only need to submit each post 1 time.
    
    The New York Public Library lists a few books with "Hylan, John" as
    the subject.
    
    1.Autobiography of John Francis Hylan, mayor of New York. (1922)
    2.Seven years of progress. Important public improvements and a (1925)
    3.Subway nickels. A survey of New York city's transit problem (1925)
    
    So I'd start there... Anything you'll find on the web will be
    contradictory and possibly legendary discussions of how he almost
    killed his supervisor while he was a BRT/BMT motorman, got fired, then
    tried to exact his revenge by sponsoring the Independent Subway.
    
    -Dave
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>mosaics on El stations
DATE>Jan 26 12:35:17 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 23, 1998 at 15:08:48:

   I found a beautiful mosiac today at Dyckman street, Uptown Platform-
    South end where the platform vanishes into the tunnel.(There are two,
    one is poor condition the other is in great shape.)
    
    
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NEXT>8759
PREVIOUS>8746
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways
DATE>Jan 26 12:35:20 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 23, 1998 at 15:32:14:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways posted by David
    Pirmann on January 23, 1998 at 14:23:24:
    
    Contradictory and legendary information about Mayor Hylan isn't
    limited to the Web. Stan Fischler's new book, _The Subway_, recounts
    that "fired motorman" story as unquestioned truth, when in fact it may
    or may not be true.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8692
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New NYC Subway Map (& Lack of SEPTA Maps)
DATE>Jan 26 12:35:23 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 23, 1998 at 15:35:45:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: New NYC Subway Map (& Lack of SEPTA Maps) posted
    by Will on January 22, 1998 at 10:56:46:
    
    Sad to say, charging for transit maps goes very far back in
    Philadelphia. In the 60s SEPTA's predecessor, the PTC, sold the map
    for 25 cents. In fact, it is the same map that is was still sold by
    SEPTA a recently, just updated. The actual city template and line
    depictions (thin red lines for busses, black solid and dotted lines
    for trains, thin dotted lines for the subway-surface lines
    underground) are exactly the same.
    
    Back in the old days, one bought the map at newsstands; they were
    unavailable at subway stations. Recently, book stores and SEPTA sold
    them. Maybe there are none available because someone finally told them
    that their 45-year old map design could be updated, possibly even on a
    computer. Let's hope that is the reason and that someday they will put
    a new one out.
    
    Some of the things SEPTA has done are very intelligent, like having
    15-minute owl "subway line" service using busses rather than 30-minute
    owl service with trains, with all 4 busses (for the 2 main lines)
    meeting in Center City at one bus stop every 15 minutes. (Waiting at a
    completely deserted train station at 2 AM and paying the conductor on
    the one-car train was scary, as was walking through the tunnels to
    change trains.)
    
    They have also done some foolish things, like letting the city convert
    Chestnut St. into a busses-only street, pretty much making many of the
    really classy stores in Philadelphia move to Walnut Street. Chestnut
    St. used to look like a leisurely 5th Avenue. It was the only street
    outside NYC that my parents really loved walking along. Not any more.
    
    Oh, well....
    
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NEXT>8766
PREVIOUS>8737
POSTER>Steve B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
DATE>Jan 26 12:35:25 1998
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Posted by Steve B on January 23, 1998 at 15:38:32:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
    posted by Andrew Huie on January 22, 1998 at 21:54:56:
    
    I wouldn't doubt that most of the stairways leading down to the lower
    level have been cemented over. I do know that the stairway at the
    south end of the downtown platform is still there. I think the
    stairway at the north end, which was used as part of the underpass to
    the uptown platform is gone, as well as the stairway on the southern
    end of the uptown platform. I remember using the underpass on a few
    occasions. There also used to be an escalator from the extreme
    southern end of the mezzanine (past the entrance to the Port Authority
    Bus Terminal and beyond the stairs to the downtown platform) to the
    lower level. It was marked "Entrance to Aqueduct Subway Special". In
    addition, there were signs posted all along the mezzanine which read,
    "Entrance for Aqueduct Specials at 40th St". Based on the photos of
    the lower level, the escalator guts are still in place, but the
    escalator opening in the mezzanine floor has been cemented over. I
    used to board downtown A trains at 42nd St. every Saturday for three
    years, so I'm very familiar with that station.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8704
POSTER>Steve B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line, Working Draft
DATE>Jan 26 12:35:28 1998
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Posted by Steve B on January 23, 1998 at 16:12:40:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line by Line: The Brighton Line,
    Working Draft posted by Mike Berson on January 22, 1998 at 10:03:09:
    
    The D officially switched terminals with the QB and QJ on August 18,
    1968.
    
    
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NEXT>8768
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Will 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Lack of SEPTA Maps/Chestnut Street
DATE>Jan 26 12:35:31 1998
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Posted by Will on January 23, 1998 at 16:12:48:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: New NYC Subway Map (& Lack of SEPTA Maps) posted
    by Carl M. Rabbin on January 23, 1998 at 15:35:45:
    
    Well said!
    
    Although I am an ardent supporter of mass transit, I also think that
    buses-only streets are a bad idea. After all, weren't buses adopted
    and streetcars put out to pasture because buses "mixed better" with
    traffic?
    
    I feel the jury may still be out on transit-only streets with rail on
    them, but the condition of Howard Street in Baltimore is certainly a
    strike against the practice. But then there's Portland.... Any
    opinions?
    
    
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NEXT>8755
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Subman23 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Panhandlers
DATE>Jan 26 12:35:36 1998
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Posted by Subman23 on January 23, 1998 at 16:14:39:

   It is true that the MTA must do a better job of providing clean
    trains. How often do transit bureau officers patrol trains and eject
    outstretched people and ticket the panhandlers? NOT ENOUGH....
    
    However, if the liberal populace continue to support the "Skels" they
    will continue to beg on trains and irritate the masses. Another
    problem is the civil liberty nuts who feel pity for these
    "unfortunate" people. Giving them some change warms their liberal
    hearts but encourages further begging.
    
    Bet I could make a good living out of being a representative of the
    UHO (United Homeless Organization - laugh, laugh, laugh). Are the
    riders so naive not to realize that these jokers are professional
    beggers?
    
    CAN ANYBODY SPARE SOME CHANGE?? "We all need somebody to lean on"!
    
    
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NEXT>8907
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>John B. Bredin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Chestnut Street & other "no car" streets
DATE>Jan 26 12:35:40 1998
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Posted by John B. Bredin on January 23, 1998 at 17:02:50:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Lack of SEPTA Maps/Chestnut Street posted by Will
    on January 23, 1998 at 16:12:48:
    
    Here in Chicago, we had the State Street Mall fiasco. State Street,
    the shopping street with the two great department stores (Marshall
    Fields and Carson, Pirie, Scott), was converted to a no-auto, bus-only
    mall in the late '70s - early '80s, but the smaller stores kept
    leaving in droves, for Michigan Avenue or the suburban malls. The
    sidewalks were too wide, the pavement was very dark gray, etc., etc..
    So, in the mid-90's, the city finally decided to 1) open the street to
    auto traffic again, 2) widen the street and narrow the sidewalks, and
    3) install old-fashioned-looking streetlights, subway entrances, and
    planters.
    
    Since the renovation of State Street (and of several buildings on the
    Street, including the conversion of an empty department store into
    DePaul Center and the building of the Harold Washington Library), the
    pedestrian traffic has grown leaps and bounds, and stores are
    returning to State Street.
    
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NEXT>8764
PREVIOUS>8753
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Panhandlers
DATE>Jan 26 12:35:43 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 23, 1998 at 17:35:35:

   In Reply to: [7]Panhandlers posted by Subman23 on January 23, 1998 at
    16:14:39:
    
    I am not supporting these people, but I would like to share something
    a world-travelling friend of mine likes to remind me of when I
    complain about panhandlers.....Beggars are an accepted trade in every
    culture except ours...!
    
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NEXT>8760
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Michael B. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Canal St. Station (J,M,Z,N,R,6)
DATE>Jan 26 12:35:45 1998
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Posted by Michael B. on January 23, 1998 at 17:40:38:

   When you transfer from the J,M,Z,6 to the N,R the connecting tunnel is
    actually a disused station. The tracks appear to be strewn with
    rubble. What is the story with this tunnel, station, tracks, etc?
    
    -Michael
    
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NEXT>8758
PREVIOUS>8736
POSTER>david vartanoff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: information about JFK express
DATE>Jan 26 12:35:48 1998
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Posted by david vartanoff on January 23, 1998 at 17:40:44:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: information about JFK express posted by Wayne
    Johnson on January 23, 1998 at 09:06:07:
    
    Yes it was a premium fare which in theory might have been justified by
    one security for travelers and luggage and two speed. The train was
    way too slow even though it operated as an "express" and so the one
    time I rode convinced me that it was a loser. As regular readers here
    likely are aware there is a plan posted at a linked site outlining a
    far superior service achievable at cost too low to include enough
    corruption to be -politically feasible. see Penny Bridge Station.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8757
POSTER>david vartanoff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: information about JFK express
DATE>Jan 26 12:35:50 1998
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Posted by david vartanoff on January 23, 1998 at 17:41:16:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: information about JFK express posted by Wayne
    Johnson on January 23, 1998 at 09:06:07:
    
    Yes it was a premium fare which in theory might have been justified by
    one security for travelers and luggage and two speed. The train was
    way too slow even though it operated as an "express" and so the one
    time I rode convinced me that it was a loser. As regular readers here
    likely are aware there is a plan posted at a linked site outlining a
    far superior service achievable at cost too low to include enough
    corruption to be -politically feasible. see Penny Bridge Station.
    
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NEXT>8762
PREVIOUS>8748
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways
DATE>Jan 26 12:35:53 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 23, 1998 at 17:43:01:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways posted by Peter Rosa
    on January 23, 1998 at 15:32:14:
    
    I think the things that relate to facts about Hylan can be trusted as
    long as one avoids attempts to get into his head. No doubt he worked
    for the transit company, but only he knew if this caused him to bear a
    grudge against them into his political career.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8756
POSTER>Mike B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Canal St. Station (J,M,Z,N,R,6)
DATE>Jan 26 12:35:55 1998
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Posted by Mike B on January 23, 1998 at 19:29:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Canal St. Station (J,M,Z,N,R,6) posted by Michael B.
    on January 23, 1998 at 17:40:38:
    
    This is the station that used to serve all Broadway trains coming off
    the Manhattan Bridge. The last trains to use it in regular service
    were the N and Q. When the North-Side of the bridge was closed a few
    years ago, B and D trains were routed to Broadway and used the
    station.
    When (If) the Manhattan Bridge ever opens some day, the tracks and
    station will be used again. Keep your fingers crossed that this may
    someday occur..
    
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NEXT>8763
PREVIOUS>8708
POSTER>Andrew Byler 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Pennsylvania Electrification to Penn Station
DATE>Jan 26 12:35:58 1998
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Posted by Andrew Byler on January 23, 1998 at 19:52:54:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Pennsylvania Electrification to Penn Station
    posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 22, 1998 at 21:17:30:
    
    Having worked for the company the produced the Silverliners for Septa
    and the Jersey Arrows for NJT, I can attest that these were nearly
    idenitcal.
    
    There are a few minor differences.
    
    1) Jersey Arrows always had the pocket doors in the center of the car,
    the Silverliners have never had these installed, and only the
    Silverliner IV's have them.
    
    2) Jersey Arrow II's and III's have different trucks, as they are
    permitted 80 mph on Amtrak, while the Silverliner IV's are permitted
    to 95 mph. I had to check this in the Amtrak employee timetable, as
    the II's and III's used to be allowed 100 mph. Anyone know the reason
    for this change?
    
    3) The differing appearances of the roof cowls, as mentioned.
    
    For general information, Silverliner II's are the same as Jersey Arrow
    I's (now converted to push pull coaches). Silverliner III's are unique
    - they are nicknamed the Lateliners because of tardy delivery.
    Silverliner IV's are equivalent to Jersey Arrow II's. Jersey Arrow
    III's are an improved version. Some preliminary plans do exist for
    Silverliner V's/jersey Arrow IV's, but nothing has ever come of them.
    
    The actual classifications are, original intended service area, etc.:
    
    Septa
    Pioneer IV's (6 built, all retired) - 75 mph
    MAID - No. 244-248 (PRR)
    Silverliner II's (55 built) - 85 mph
    MAIB - No. 201-219 (PRR), 251-269 (PRR), 9001-9017 (Reading)
    Silverliner III's (20 built) - 85 mph
    MAIC - No. 220-239 (PRR)
    Silverliner IV's (232 built) - 95 mph
    MAIE (single car) - No. 270-303 (PRR), 9018-9031 (Reading)
    Note: No. 270-275, 9029-9031 renumbered into 401-410
    MAIF (married pairs) - No. 304-399 (PRR), 101-188 (Reading)
    Note: Several renumbered into 411-426
    Jersey Arrow I's (33 (?) built) - 85 mph
    MAIB - (???)
    Jersey Arrow II's (70 built) - 80/100 mph
    MAIG - No. 1234-1303 (PRR)
    Jersey Arrow III's (230 built) - 80/100 mph
    MAIH - 1304-1533 (PRR and DL&W)
    
    Andy
    
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NEXT>8772
PREVIOUS>8759
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways
DATE>Jan 26 12:36:01 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 23, 1998 at 20:27:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways posted by Gary Jacobi
    on January 23, 1998 at 17:43:01:
    
    So you're saying that the incident actually happened?? Wouldn't there
    be some record somewhere of it??
    
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NEXT>8776
PREVIOUS>8761
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Pennsylvania Electrification to Penn Station
DATE>Jan 26 12:36:05 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 23, 1998 at 20:32:20:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Pennsylvania Electrification to Penn Station
    posted by Andrew Byler on January 23, 1998 at 19:52:54:
    
    I was on a Septa train that did get up to 95, but it sure didn't hold
    it that long, and it took quite some time getting that fast. How much
    do those things weigh?? What's their HP ratings?? I'm asking because I
    was surprised the train was acting sluggish - I know New Haven line
    stuff can hit 80 -90 _with dead cars_. Tey are also supposed to be
    able to do 120, the LIRR m-1's can sure break 100...
    
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NEXT>8765
PREVIOUS>8755
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Panhandlers
DATE>Jan 26 12:36:08 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 23, 1998 at 20:49:15:

   In Reply to: [8]Panhandlers posted by Subman23 on January 23, 1998 at
    16:14:39:
    
    Not to start a war here, but I don't see the conservative "ignore them
    and they'll go away" solution being any better.
    
    I'll admit I don't like them either, but heck, I can't blame them. In
    case you've forgotten, the minimum wage is impossible to live on, and
    with a good act, I'm sure you could get better than $6 an hour -
    without taxes. Add to that a fairly decent working condition, and no
    need to commute to your job (!), and it's not such a bad alternative
    to flipping burgers. Ditto for welfare.
    
    If these people could actually get decent paying jobs with security,
    I'm sure you'd get at least a few of them out of there. But don't kid
    yourself, you can't make money flipping burgers, no matter what anyone
    says. Don't blame the liberals for making panhandleing profitable.
    
    Why not just fix the underlying problems in society. Kicking these
    people from location to location just moves the problem around - it
    solves nothing.
    
    For the mental cases out there, most "institutions", or better, the
    people in them, aren't going to do them any good either. Seriously,
    they have the attitude that all insanity is an "act" that the person
    does for attention. And the medications they give out make the person
    more out of wack than without the drugs. I know because I was in one,
    thank you very much.
    
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NEXT>8767
PREVIOUS>8764
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Panhandlers
DATE>Jan 26 12:36:14 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 23, 1998 at 21:05:52:

   In Reply to: [8]Panhandlers posted by Subman23 on January 23, 1998 at
    16:14:39:
    
    A good way to cut down on panhandling is to make it illegal to *give*
    money to beggars. The skells themselves probably don't worry about
    occasional arrests, but the mostly respectable people who give money
    would be concerned.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8750
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
DATE>Jan 26 12:36:19 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 23, 1998 at 21:18:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Question RE: 42d St IND Lower Level *E Platform*
    posted by Steve B on January 23, 1998 at 15:38:32:
    
    All these postings sort of piqued my curiosity, so this afternoon
    after work I went a bit out of my way and looked around the downtown
    A/C/E platform. There is only one remaining stairway to the disused
    lower level, located near the downtown end of the active platform.
    Presumably the other stairway(s) was/were destroyed when the mezzanine
    was rebuilt and the ramps added.
    I couldn't see too much of the lower level, as the only lights were a
    couple of bulbs at the bottom of the stairway. The platform appeared
    to be quite dusty, though I can't be certain of that, and there was
    some litter that apparently came down from the active platform above.
    The stairway was in pretty bad shape, with most of the metal edges
    missing from the treads and the concrete steps themselves filthy and
    greasy-looking. The stairway wasn't impassible, but it surely would be
    quite a safety hazard if regularly used. In addition, the handrails
    were dirty and part of one was broken.
    Despite all this decrepitude, there was discordant note. The chain and
    padlock on the gate at the top of the stairway were obviously
    brand-new. So maybe, just maybe, people *have* been going that way
    recently ...
    
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NEXT>8769
PREVIOUS>8765
POSTER>Lefty 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Panhandlers
DATE>Jan 26 12:36:22 1998
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Posted by Lefty on January 23, 1998 at 22:19:09:

   In Reply to: [8]Panhandlers posted by Subman23 on January 23, 1998 at
    16:14:39:
    
    beggars, yeah they piss me off.. but what REALLY gets to me are the
    guys that live in the subway cars and occupy a full half of the car
    because their stench is intolerable..
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8752
POSTER>Larry Littlefield 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Lack of SEPTA Maps/Chestnut Street
DATE>Jan 26 12:36:26 1998
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Posted by Larry Littlefield on January 23, 1998 at 22:22:32:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Lack of SEPTA Maps/Chestnut Street posted by Will
    on January 23, 1998 at 16:12:48:
    
    A no car street is only reasonable if there is sufficient transit
    traffic to fill the right of way. A five minute headway, with empty
    pavement most of the time, is a waste of land. Fulton Street in
    Downtown Brooklyn, a no car street with buses, is a successful low
    income shopping center, with high rents and dense pedestrian traffic.
    Amazingly, however, the TA runs just four bus routes on Fulton -- and
    four more on Livingston, a parallel street one block away. I guess
    thats the way the trolleys ran. Put all the buses on Fulton, leaving
    Livingston to the cars, and the no-car street would make more sense.
    
    A no car street might make sense on two-lane commercial streets. Fifth
    Avenue in Brooklyn has three active "main streets", one after another,
    each with upwards of 500,000 square feet of space. The merchants park
    at the curb, the trucks double park in the one moving lane in each
    direction, and the bus route has the worst on time record anywhere.
    Why not admit the cars can't use 5th Avenue anyway? The city could put
    the parking meters around the corners, reserve the parking lane for
    loading and bus stops, and have an express busway.
    
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NEXT>8773
PREVIOUS>8767
POSTER>Larry Littlefield 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Panhandlers
DATE>Jan 26 12:36:28 1998
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Posted by Larry Littlefield on January 23, 1998 at 22:27:17:

   In Reply to: [7]Panhandlers posted by Subman23 on January 23, 1998 at
    16:14:39:
    
    It may just be that since I purchased a car in 1991, my wife and I
    ride off peak less frequently, but the homeless problem on the subway
    seems much better than it was in the 1980s. I remember walking up a
    stairwell and coming across someone urinating downward -- the fly was
    down, but the pants were so shreaded he needn't have bothered. He
    graciously directed the stream the other way as I passed. I haven't
    come across something like that in the past five years.
    
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NEXT>8859
PREVIOUS>8739
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Sheepshead Bay Race Track
DATE>Jan 26 12:36:30 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on January 23, 1998 at 22:34:08:

   In Reply to: [8]Sheepshead Bay Race Track posted by Ed Sachs on
    January 23, 1998 at 12:25:24:
    
    You mean the stairways to the Manhattan Beach RR are at the Brighton
    stations, or are they a few blocks east? I thought the RR was some
    distance from the Brighton line.
    
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NEXT>8821
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>R. O. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Subway Sounds Audios
DATE>Jan 26 12:36:32 1998
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Posted by R. O. on January 23, 1998 at 22:59:03:

   Didn't get a chance to check back till now, is there any source of
    subway audio, not only the traction motors running hum but compressor
    pumps etc.
    would make good wav files for PC.
    
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NEXT>8775
PREVIOUS>8762
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways
DATE>Jan 26 12:36:34 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 23, 1998 at 23:27:27:

   In Reply to: [8]Mayor Hylan and the subways posted by Peggy de Bethune
    on January 23, 1998 at 14:15:03:
    
    Before he entered politics, John Hyland was a subway motorman.
    Unfortunately, he had one character flaw - he held a grudge. He
    disliked one of his supervisors so much - he attempted to run him over
    with his train. He was promptly fired for his attempted deed.
    
    When John Hyland became Mayor of NY, he still bore that grudge against
    the subway system that fired him. In order to drive them out of
    business, John Hyland embarked on building the city-owned IND subway
    system. He deliberately had the IND routes built to compete with the
    existing routes of the private companies. This explains why some IND
    routes like the Fulton Street Line (IND) ran under a BRT/BMT line.
    
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NEXT>8774
PREVIOUS>8769
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Panhandlers
DATE>Jan 26 12:36:37 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 23, 1998 at 23:42:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers posted by Philip Nasadowski on January
    23, 1998 at 20:49:15:
    
    Sorry Phil but I need to disagree. 1st of all, the MTA is not an
    out-reach program and most employees are not equiped to handle the
    homeless problem. Second, leaving them on the system is far worse than
    putting them in shelters or hospitals. Too many of them become crime
    victims or end up under the wheels of a train. I had one period of 3
    weeks nack in 1983 where I responded to 9 of them,
    
    Ever go through the 2nd Ave (Houston Street) station on the F line?
    Ever wonder why all that galvanized steel was erected? For a dozen
    years, a 'tribe' of homeless lived in the tunnel south of the station.
    The stench became so bad, people (like me) couldn't use the station
    without becoming ill.
    
    Sometimes being 'cruel' and not giving becomes a kindness. Besides, if
    you read the posters on the trains, you can give to outreach programs
    through the MTA.
    
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NEXT>8819
PREVIOUS>8773
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Panhandlers
DATE>Jan 26 12:36:41 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 23, 1998 at 23:47:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers posted by Gary Jacobi on January 23,
    1998 at 17:35:35:
    
    That explains why pan-handlers don't bother me when I'm somewhere
    else. When in Rome - dah dah dah. But we are here and begging is not
    an acceptable part of our culture. Perhaps they should go where
    begging is a respected trade. If they learn the language it could be a
    great career move.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8772
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways
DATE>Jan 26 12:36:43 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 23, 1998 at 23:49:17:

   In Reply to: [8]Mayor Hylan and the subways posted by Peggy de Bethune
    on January 23, 1998 at 14:15:03:
    
    PS: See if you can get a copy of A&Es "Subway, Empire Beneath the
    Streets"
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8763
POSTER>defaultuser@domain.com
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Pennsylvania Electrification to Penn Station
DATE>  :: 
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References: <6aihi5$ngn$1@quartz.quuxuum.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I)
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)

Philip Nasadowski asked about Silverliner IV operating characterisitics.

>    I was on a Septa train that did get up to 95, but it sure didn't
hold
>    it that long, and it took quite some time getting that fast. How
much
>    do those things weigh?? What's their HP ratings?? I'm asking
because I
>    was surprised the train was acting sluggish - I know New Haven line

>    stuff can hit 80 -90 _with dead cars_. Tey are also supposed to be
>    able to do 120, the LIRR m-1's can sure break 100...

I am not entirely certain what the HP rating is or their deadweight.
That might be in "Delaware Valley Rails".  I do know that their initial
acceleration is at or better than 1 mph/s during the intial acceleration
up to 60 mph, and then tapers off.  Given track speeds on Septa, and the
closeness of stations, this makes sense.  The only place they can really
open up is on trains to Trenton and Wilmington, especially the
expresses, but also between some of the further spaced outer stops (like
Trenton to Levittown or Wilmington to Claymont) and also trains between
Paoli and Downingtown.  Beyond the Amtrak lines, only the Jenkintown -
West Trenton, and Phil Interlocking - Airport sections are of any great
speed - 70 mph and 80 mph respectively.

I believe the MARC trains still hold the Commuter speed limit record of
105 mph ont he Penn Line.

Andy Byler

NEXT>
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POSTER>jamesrr@psu.edu
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SUBJECT>Queens shuttle
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Anybody out there know anything about this Queens shuttle I keep
hearing about?  Something around 63rd Street.  Where and what will it
link?  When was it proposed and what's the status?  What cars would be
used on it?



James
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POSTER>SubMan 
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SUBJECT>Crime
DATE>Jan 30 14:18:21 1998
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Posted by SubMan on January 10, 1998 at 00:17:31:

   What station in the New York City Subway do you think is the most
    crime-ridden and unsafe to be in? Which do you think is the most
    pleasant and nice to be in? Also, what do you think is the most
    dangerous corridor to walk in in the subway either when transferring
    trains or leaving a station?
    
    Of all the stations I've been to, I actually feel the safest at 34th
    Street on the N and R because everytime I'm there, I always see at
    least 2 cops in the station so I know if I need help it's right there.
    Also, there's this "Urban Musical Instrument" there. I don't know if
    anybody has seen or played with it but it's a unique contraption that
    defies explaination but is a must see for all subway fans. Using this
    instrument, you can produce sounds of nature in the station. It's a
    lot of fun and gives you something to do while waiting for the train!
    Of the stations I've been to, I feel the least safe at 21st St. - Van
    Alst on the G train late at night. This station is totally deserted
    and prostitutes often use it as their "place of business".
    As for a dangerous corridor, I'm not sure but I was wondering what
    everybody else thinks!
    
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NEXT>8780
PREVIOUS>8778
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
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SUBJECT>Re: Crime
DATE>Jan 30 14:18:24 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 10, 1998 at 10:20:36:

   In Reply to: [8]Crime posted by SubMan on January 10, 1998 at
    00:17:31:
    
    
    It's probably difficult to reach any conclusions about the relative
    safety of any stations without having the appropriate statistics. For
    a variety of reasons, including lighting, physical layout, usage etc.,
    a station might appear particularly dangerous (or safe) when that
    might not actually be the case.
    As a case in point, consider the F station at 14th Street in
    Manhattan. It has always seemed vaguely menacing to me, even though
    I've never heard of any incidents there and have no idea what the
    crime rates might be. Several factors contribute to this impression -
    the station is dimly lit, feels confined (walls separate the uptown
    and downtown platforms and mezzanines), and doesn't seem particularly
    busy. In contrast, there is the N and R station at 34th Street,as you
    noted.
    
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POSTER>Timothy Speer 
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SUBJECT>Re: Crime
DATE>Jan 30 14:18:28 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 10, 1998 at 11:38:46:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Crime posted by Peter Rosa on January 10, 1998 at
    10:20:36:
    
    It's amazing what adding fluorescent lighting to a station can do for
    its image. I used to get off at Lafayette avenue on the C train when I
    was at Brooklyn Tech, and the eerie lighting (or lack thereof!) of the
    incandescent bulbs made it seem very menacing, though I never actually
    witnessed any crime there. Once they added the fluorescents, as nice
    as the bright lights were, their harshness made the stations look
    dirtier and less classy. I miss the dimly lit IND stations for some
    reasons, I guess.
    
    All things being equal, I always felt the most unsafe at Smith-9th
    Street on the G & F.
    
    By the way -- As a child, I always hated 14th street on the F, but not
    because it was unsafe... I HATED the smell of the stale popcorn at the
    concessionary there. The doors of the F train would open, and the
    smell would almost knock me off my seat. (I think the stand was
    removed in the late 1970's)
    
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POSTER>Reggie 
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SUBJECT>Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
DATE>Jan 30 14:18:31 1998
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Posted by Reggie on January 10, 1998 at 13:57:33:

   I've been on subway systems around North America and seen maps and
    guides to other subways around the world. And the one factor that
    makes NYC the best is the large number of Express Lines we have. Every
    north-south line in Manhattan (even Nassau Street), four lines in
    Brooklyn and one in Queens are 4-track express lines. Then add all the
    3-track peak direction express lines in the the outer boroughs and we
    have quite a "rapid" rapid transit system.
    
    Only Chicago has an express line that I know of (Purple/Red line from
    Howard to Downtown). And San Francisco's underground streetcars serve
    as a local Market Street subway for BART between downtown and The
    Castro District. There are no express trains in London or Paris, which
    either pre-date us or developed around the same time. And none of
    North America's newer subways have provided for any more than two
    tracks for any of their lines, not even Washington, which has more
    unduplicated track miles than we do, extending far into the suburbs.
    
    So my question is: How did New York have the vision to build so many
    express lines, especially since private companies did all the
    construction in the first half of our history? Was there someone like
    a Robert Moses who could predict how important our subway system would
    become, requiring four track operations, even in Brooklyn and Queens?
    
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POSTER>Larry Littlefield 
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SUBJECT>Re: Crime
DATE>Jan 30 14:18:33 1998
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Posted by Larry Littlefield on January 10, 1998 at 14:46:00:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Crime posted by Timothy Speer on January 10, 1998
    at 11:38:46:
    
    It is easier to know which stations feel unsafe than which are unsafe.
    I feel the most unsafe when a transfer between trains requires
    negotiating a stair of passageway, rather than a hop across the
    platform.
    
    Traveling from Yonkers to Brooklyn while visiting relatives in the
    1980s, my wife and I originally took the 1 to the A to the F. But
    these were trips during the lightly traveled weekend period, and that
    route required an elevator ride at 168th and Broadway. When crack hit
    Washington Heights (it hit there first), the elevator got very scary
    and we stopped going that way (I believe the elevator is now manned).
    We could have transfered from the 1/2/3 to the F at 14th Street, but
    that required a long walk down an empty passageway, and we never felt
    comfortable. Eventually, we started taking the 1 to the 2 to Grand
    Army Plaza, then walking 15 to 20 minutes, to avoid these changes.
    Then we started renting cars on weekends. Then we bought a used car
    for weekend use. Eventually we bought an new car, and we now use the
    subway primarily for work trips.
    
    Other scary places: the change from the F to the N/R at 4th Avenue,
    down several dark stairways. The entrance to Clark Street, which
    requires an elevator ride. The East New York stop on the Long Island
    Railroad, in Brooklyn's murder capital, where the suburbanites back
    away when the doors open, and relax when they close, and few get off
    or on (we used to visit Long Island by train as well). At, since they
    tore down the abandoned LIRR terminal at Atlantic and Flatbush, the
    area around that terminal is a scary wasteland. A major developer
    supposedly has the rights to build atop the station and is negotiating
    with major retail tenants. I hope the deal goes through and activity
    returns to comfort travelers.
    
    
    
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POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
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SUBJECT>Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
DATE>Jan 30 14:18:36 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 14:54:05:

   In Reply to: [8]Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? posted
    by Reggie on January 10, 1998 at 13:57:33:
    
    The Chief Engineer of the Interborough Rapid Trnsit Corporation,
    William Barclay Parsons, had the foresight to create the world's first
    4 track subway with dedicated express and local service. Seeing how
    well it became utilized on opening day and beyond, all of the trunk
    lines also adapted this scheme, be it IRT or BRT new lines or
    expansion. The IND took it one step further in the late '20s and
    designed some of the best express runs in the world, from 125th to
    59th in Manhattan and from Queens Plaza to 71/Continental Ave in
    Queens. Between Queens Plaza & Roosevelt Ave, and also between 7th Ave
    (Brooklyn) and Church Ave on the IND South Brooklyn Line, the express
    actually diverges from the local, taking a more direct route to the
    next express stop.
    
    Parsons visited Budapest, London and Paris, which all had subway lines
    built before New York's. The "cut and cover" method was brought back
    from his Budapest trip. He also had the foresight to build the IRT
    closest to street level, where possible, unlike some of London's
    deep-bored tube lines requiring elevators. Could you imagine if Grand
    Central Station on the Lexington Ave line required elevators for
    departing and arriving passengers?
    
    The center track on the Els dates back to the Metropolitan Elevated
    Railway Company in Manhattan and BRT ownership of Brooklyn ELs in the
    early 20th century. Once the Els were electrified and more rapid
    speeds could be achieved, a center track was laid on the Els (remember
    that most ELs were wide enough for 3 tracks because th structure had
    to allow horsecar traffic underneath them) and peak direction express
    service began.
    
    Other cities don't have it; perhaps their engineers felt it wasn't
    necessary. More recent systems (Washington DC, San Francisco's BART)
    have most stations, except for those in a city center, relatively far
    apart from one another so express runs aren't required. Look how close
    some of the original IRT stations were.
    
    I know London has 2 express runs, only one of which I can think of
    right now, which is the Piccadilly Line a few miles outside of
    Heathrow (I wish I had a map handy to specify the exact location).
    
    --Mark
    
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POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
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SUBJECT>Addendum (Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?)
DATE>Jan 30 14:18:38 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 16:11:05:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
    posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 14:54:05:
    
    Regarding London, Tim Hall posted a
    [9]response regarding 4 track lines in London.
    
    --Mark
    
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POSTER>Tim Hall 
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SUBJECT>Re: Addendum (Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?)
DATE>Jan 30 14:18:42 1998
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Posted by Tim Hall on January 10, 1998 at 18:26:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Addendum (Re: Who had the great foresight for Express
    Lines?) posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 16:11:05:
    
    Note that none of those 4-track sections are in the central area,
    they're all out in the suburbs.
    
    An east-west express line is sorely needed in the centre though. One
    was proposed (Crossrail) a few years back, but was "indefinitely
    postponed".
    
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POSTER>Steve 
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SUBJECT>The Most Dangerous Station
DATE>Jan 30 14:18:44 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 10, 1998 at 18:32:28:

   In Reply to: [8]Crime posted by SubMan on January 10, 1998 at
    00:17:31:
    
    Statistics not withstanding, safety and the feeling there-of is a
    matter of perception. While most people might feel uneasy about being
    in a deserted station, late at night, there are also people who might
    feel threatened by huge crowds during the PM rush at Columbus Circle.
    The NYPD has statistics on what stations are highest in crime, but the
    disclosure of which one would add little to the discussion. Just keep
    in mind that while most people that use it or pass it each day, give
    it little thought to the fact that the station with the greatest
    number of crime victims in this decade is Merrilon Avenue on the Long
    Island Railroad.
    
    
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POSTER>Andrew Huie 
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SUBJECT>Re: Crime
DATE>Jan 30 14:18:46 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on January 10, 1998 at 18:49:49:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Crime posted by Larry Littlefield on January 10,
    1998 at 14:46:00:
    
    Clark street unsafe? That's in Bklyn Heights! Personally, I've never
    found the elevators to be scary, since I've been acquainted with them
    all my life. Dirty and smelly, yes, but not scary.
    
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POSTER>Andrew Huie 
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SUBJECT>Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
DATE>Jan 30 14:18:49 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on January 10, 1998 at 19:03:52:

   In Reply to: [7]Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? posted
    by Reggie on January 10, 1998 at 13:57:33:
    
    What I find curious, is how do smaller systems like Moscow and Tokyo
    carry more passengers, if they don't have separate express and local
    tracks? In NYC, it seems even with the separate tracks it's not
    enough.
    
    
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POSTER>Peter Rosa 
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SUBJECT>Re: Crime
DATE>Jan 30 14:18:53 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 10, 1998 at 22:32:14:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Crime posted by Larry Littlefield on January 10,
    1998 at 14:46:00:
    
    Transfer passageways are not created equal, when it comes to the
    perception of safety (as I mentioned in an earlier note, reality is
    not necessarily the same as perceptions). The passageway from Times
    Square to 42nd Street on the A/C/E hardly feels unsafe, given its
    heavy usage. Much the same could be said about the passageway to the
    Shuttle at Grand Central. On the other hand, as an earlier posting
    noted, the Court Square-21st passageway in Queens seems menacing,
    which may very well be due to lower usage. So it really isn't possible
    to generalize about safety perceptions.
    By the way, neither East New York nor Flatbush Avenue on the LIRR seem
    particularly dangerous. The area surrounding the ENY station is mainly
    commercial rather than residential, and the station itself seems to
    get a lot of usage by workers at the nearby bus depot and subway yard.
    There is a busy commercial area around Flatbush Avenue, especially
    since the completion of the Atlantic Commons shopping mall just behind
    the station.
    
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POSTER>Peter Rosa 
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SUBJECT>Re: The Most Dangerous Station
DATE>Jan 30 14:18:56 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 10, 1998 at 22:37:00:

   In Reply to: [8]The Most Dangerous Station posted by Steve on January
    10, 1998 at 18:32:28:
    
    Do you have these station-by-station crime statistics, or know where
    they're available? I agree, raw numbers can be misleading (e.g. Times
    Square probably is high on the list, but that's no surprise given its
    usage). Even so, people have the right to know.
    
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POSTER>Mellow One 
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SUBJECT>Re: Addendum (Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?)
DATE>Jan 30 14:18:58 1998
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Posted by Mellow One on January 11, 1998 at 14:56:04:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Addendum (Re: Who had the great foresight for
    Express Lines?) posted by Tim Hall on January 10, 1998 at 18:26:22:
    
    I thought I might jump in this subject.
    It is interesting that the original NY rapid transit, the els, were
    reconstructed to 3 track / center express/ lines. Much of the US and
    NY rail and early rapid transit systmes were financed to some degree
    with British capital. However, their influence extended mainly to the
    esthetic, the Victorian Station Structures in Manhattan, and in some
    cases, like Chicago, two track service was initiated with left hand
    running.
    However, our NYC demographics, namely the original suburban
    development, necessitated expanded rush hour service. The 9th Ave El
    was completely rebuilt to 3 track configuration well before
    electrification. The 6th Ave El was never expanded because of the
    local traffic density which is what mainly applies to the European
    metropolises. London, on the other hand instituted the subway as we
    know it, but because of its deep tunneling and in some cases, the
    local trafic desity, stayed with the 2 track configuration. Our first
    NYC subway construction engineers had the opportunity to learn from
    the London and the local El experiences. Manhattan is the least likely
    place to have deep tunneling because of the granite bedrock of most of
    the island and necessitated the cut and cover method of subway
    construction.
    
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POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
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SUBJECT>Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:00 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 15:07:46:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
    posted by Andrew Huie on January 10, 1998 at 19:03:52:
    
    I'll venture to guess that in those cities, it is much more expensive
    for people to drive that it is here. More people in those cities may
    not have the alternatives to driving that we take for granted here in
    the US.
    
    Also, in Tokyo, it is common practice to be pushed onto packed trains
    at Rush Hour by people hired to push you in (I don't know their
    official title). They really take the term "crush loading" to its
    maximum.
    
    --Mark
    
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POSTER>Neil 
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SUBJECT>Re: Crime
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:03 1998
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Posted by Neil on January 11, 1998 at 19:37:23:

   In Reply to: [7]Crime posted by SubMan on January 10, 1998 at
    00:17:31:
    
    >Of the stations I've been to, I feel the least safe at 21st St. - Van
    >Alst on the G train late at night. This station is totally deserted
    and >prostitutes often use it as their "place of business".
    
    Actually, I've used that station a lot when I lived in Hunter's Point,
    and never saw anyone in there at all (though I've seen TONS of hookers
    out on the street closer to the Queensboro Bridge)--definitly creepy,
    but no problems, including hookers. I've always wondered why they keep
    the station open, even at rush hour, I've never seen more than six
    people use it...
    
    With all the talk of subways not being as safe as they were supposed
    to be, I'm curious, What kind of crimes are on the rise: "Passive"
    pick-pocketing type stuff, muggings, assault? And are they happening
    more on the trains themselves, or in the stations?
    
    -Neil
    
    
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POSTER>Adam 
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SUBJECT>Re: Priorities
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:05 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 11, 1998 at 23:36:14:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Priorities posted by David Pirmann - web site host
    on January 11, 1998 at 14:45:40:
    
    >4. It's my opinion as the site host that the MTA attitude toward this
    site >is that we are considered "rogue" at best. Larry Reuter
    >et al. are not reading this site for ideas.
    
    I'd just like to respond to this part of the posting. I would like to
    think that we are not renegades plotting against the MTA but that we
    are serious railfans who are among the few who take the time and give
    thought to subway and bus operations on a day-to-day basis. Although
    we do tend to disagree with the MTA at times, myself included, I still
    think that we still have the utmost respect for those who run such a
    large city agency. Many of us on here have good ideas that are meant
    to just let the MTA and other railfans know what we're thinking. And
    there are a lot of MTA employees here too, who take part in meaningful
    dialogue along with everybody else. And I'd also like to take this
    time to apologize if I sometimes rant and rave, but sometimes I feel
    so strongly about things I can't help myself.
    But maybe we should try to befriend the MTA and perhaps something like
    a chat room could be set up on here in which selected employees or
    knowlegable railfans could host a forum in which they answer questions
    and exchange in dialogue with others on this site. This would be a
    great area of growth for this site.
    
    
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POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
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SUBJECT>Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:07 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 12, 1998 at 00:21:58:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
    posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 15:07:46:
    
    I believe that the people whose job is to push passengers into packed
    Tokyo subway trains are called (Japanese) "Pushers-in". Talk about job
    descriptions.
    
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POSTER>Brian 
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SUBJECT>Re: Priorities
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Posted by Brian on January 12, 1998 at 01:43:57:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Priorities posted by Adam on January 11, 1998 at
    23:36:14:
    
    Just had a quick question about the problem of the Manhattan bridge
    is it a matter for the MTA?? Or is such a project shared by other
    agencies as well?? I know it is also a auto bridge as well correct
    will the closure also effect those who drive into Manhattan? Just
    wondering is all
    
    
    
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POSTER>Brian 
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Posted by Brian on January 12, 1998 at 01:56:12:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
    posted by Dan Lawrence on January 12, 1998 at 00:21:58:
    
    The man to whom credit is given too on the idea of the four track
    system is
    August Belmont fonder of the IRT in the late 1890's. My source is the
    book
    Under the Sidewalks of New York 2nd edition, by Brian J. Cudahy.
    
    
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PREVIOUS>8791
POSTER>Brian 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Addendum (Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?)
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:14 1998
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Posted by Brian on January 12, 1998 at 02:00:36:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Addendum (Re: Who had the great foresight for
    Express Lines?) posted by Mellow One on January 11, 1998 at 14:56:04:
    
    Yes that is right it was parsons who sold the idea to Belmont to use
    the
    four track system thanks
    
    
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PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>John B. Bredin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Pushers (Was: Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?)
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:16 1998
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Posted by John B. Bredin on January 12, 1998 at 09:17:53:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
    posted by Dan Lawrence on January 12, 1998 at 00:21:58:
    
    Anyone remember the movie "Sergeant York"? 1940 or 1941, it was the
    story of the World War I hero of the same name. Anyway, in the
    training-camp portion of the movie, York meets a fellow trainee who
    everyone calls "Pusher", and York asks where he got such a nickname.
    He replies that his civilian job was with the subway in New York City,
    pushing the rush hour crowds into the cars.
    
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NEXT>8805
PREVIOUS>8797
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
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SUBJECT>Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:18 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 12, 1998 at 11:13:27:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
    posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 14:54:05:
    
    Besides the escalators at the south end of the Grand Central #7 line
    platform, I can remember riding an elevator from the Flushing line
    platform up to the mezzanine. This was probably back in the early to
    mid 60s. I believe the elevator is still there, but is no longer for
    commuter use.
    
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NEXT>8802
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
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SUBJECT>Grand Central Elevators
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:19 1998
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Posted by Ed Sachs on January 12, 1998 at 12:53:49:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
    posted by Charles Fiori on January 12, 1998 at 11:13:27:
    
    > Besides the escalators at the south end of the Grand Central #7 line
    > platform, I can remember riding an elevator from the Flushing line
    platform
    > up to the mezzanine. This was probably back in the early to mid 60s.
    I
    > believe the elevator is still there, but is no longer for commuter
    use.
    
    There was until the 60s a set of elevators at the west end of the
    Flushing
    line Grand Central platform (the wide area). These elevators were
    removed
    and replaced by escalators in the 1960s.
    
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PREVIOUS>8801
POSTER>David Pirmann 
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SUBJECT>Re: Grand Central Elevators
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:21 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 12, 1998 at 13:38:41:

   In Reply to: [8]Grand Central Elevators posted by Ed Sachs on January
    12, 1998 at 12:53:49:
    
    See : [9]The Steinway Tunnels for more. This was a early 60s ERA
    publication about the Steinway line. The diagram below is from this
    article:
    
    [INLINE]
    Diagram of Grand Central Station, Steinway Tunnel Line
    
    -Dave
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8793
POSTER>jp 
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SUBJECT>Re: Crime
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:23 1998
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Posted by jp on January 12, 1998 at 15:36:45:

   In Reply to: [7]Crime posted by SubMan on January 10, 1998 at
    00:17:31:
    
    My "home" station when I was growing up and until I moved elsewhere in
    NYC was the D-line 174th-175th Street Station on the Concourse "D"
    line in The Bronx. Someone once jumped on top of me and tried to blow
    my head off with a gun about 25 years ago, but I'm still here.
    
    Nonetheless, the station had an upper level that led to the Grand
    Concourse and an interior stairway that led down to Morris Avenue,
    which passed underneath the Concourse through a grandly constructed
    and rather large underpass.
    
    The stairway, which consisted of a number of flights of stairs with
    white tiled walls and relentless incandescent lights was the creepiest
    passageway I've ever seen in the entire NYC subway system -- it's the
    stuff of nightmares. I know it was still open in the 1970's, I'm sure
    it must be sealed off today.
    
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NEXT>8806
PREVIOUS>8796
POSTER>David Pirmann 
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SUBJECT>Re: Priorities
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:24 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 12, 1998 at 17:30:48:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Priorities posted by Adam on January 11, 1998 at
    23:36:14:
    
    By rogue, I didn't mean that we were plotting against the MTA. I was
    speaking more along the lines of what I perceive their view to be
    regarding this site. It's popular, it's got stuff they would never
    dream of putting on their own site, and it's not very "politically
    correct" sometimes.
    
    As an example, and this isn't directly involving the MTA... the City
    of New York has a web page listing sites about NYC. We were on it for
    a while and one day, gone. I asked their webmaster why. I was told
    that we were removed because this site showed subway cars/stations
    with graffiti.
    
    So that's what I meant by rogue.
    
    As for a chat room, we've already got one: this is it. There's no
    reason it can't have discussions as you suggest.
    
    -Dave
    
    
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NEXT>8810
PREVIOUS>8800
POSTER>Peter Gray 
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SUBJECT>Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:26 1998
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Posted by Peter Gray on January 12, 1998 at 21:57:25:

   In Reply to: [8]Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? posted
    by Reggie on January 10, 1998 at 13:57:33:
    
    Reggie:
    
    Credit where credit is due. 'New York' didn't have any vision at all.
    Private entrepreneurs like the founders of the IRT & BMT were the ones
    with the vision. They built express lines because they wanted to
    maximize profit, and that's what they thought would attract riders -
    good service. A completely different mentality than that of city
    bureaucrats. Central planners such as Robert Moses were responsible
    for most of the hideous infrastructure disasters in NY.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8804
POSTER>Peter Gray 
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SUBJECT>Re: Priorities
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:33 1998
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Posted by Peter Gray on January 13, 1998 at 19:35:51:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Priorities posted by Gary Jacobi on January 13,
    1998 at 11:50:41:
    
    You raise a good point, but that's exactly the problem. Private
    ownership hemmed in by 'review boards' & 'oversight committees' would
    effectively be the same as public ownership (this is the type of thing
    which put most of the private companies out of business to begin
    with).
    
    But why do people assume they will be "ripped-off" by a private
    company, but not by the city? Do people really believe NY City does a
    good job of management? If people thought the private company charged
    too much and didn't deliver decent service, they could choose NOT to
    use the system. If enough people agreed with this, the private company
    would go bankrupt, and the owners would be out on the street. Since
    the owners (which might include employees, etc. through
    stock-ownership plans) would presumably want to avoid this, they would
    have an incentive to deliver good value for money - an incentive the
    MTA does NOT have (if ridership falls because the system is crap,
    nobody at the TA necessarily loses their jobs). I would assert New
    Yorkers are currently being ripped off right now as they are offered
    nothing but a filthy, deteriorating system run by city hacks who don't
    give a damn because they have nothing to lose. But there you have it.
    New Yorkers expect so little, and they get it every time...
    
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NEXT>8815
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Seriey Pakhomov 
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SUBJECT>Re: Are the facts about Moscow metro curious?
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:35 1998
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Posted by Seriey Pakhomov on January 14, 1998 at 09:58:05:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
    posted by Andrew Huie on January 10, 1998 at 19:03:52:
    
    I think it is not curious that the Moscow metro carries more
    passengers than the NYC subway not having express tracks. It is not an
    exception that the next train is entering the station in 30-40 seconds
    after the first train has departed. And it is 1.20-1.30 mins. headway.
    Take into account the train length, how much people is inside and so
    on.
    
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PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Sergiy Pakhomov 
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SUBJECT>Re: Pushers-in
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:38 1998
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Posted by Sergiy Pakhomov on January 14, 1998 at 10:05:29:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
    posted by Mark S Feinman on January 11, 1998 at 15:07:46:
    
    "Pushers-in" are common on the A line of Paris RER.
    
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NEXT>8811
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Sergiy Pakhomov 
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SUBJECT>Re: Express Lines - London.
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:40 1998
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Posted by Sergiy Pakhomov on January 14, 1998 at 10:23:19:

   In Reply to: [8]Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? posted
    by Reggie on January 10, 1998 at 13:57:33:
    
    Do not think that express lines are the feature of NYC only. London
    has its express line though one only (maybe two, it depends).
    
    I would not like to speak about the running the Metropolitan and
    Jubilee lines between Baker Street (St. Jones Wood) and Neaden that is
    typical express service (Once when there were not the Jubilee line the
    track from Neasde to Stanmore belongs to the Metropolitan - it was the
    Stanmore branch). But the Metropolitan line operates express service
    now. When I have been to London there was the following pattern
    service:
    peak-hours
    trains to Amersham stoped at all stations either north or south of
    Harrow-on-the-Hill, or all stops; Chesham trains did not stop between
    Finchley Road and Moor Park.
    off-peak service
    to Amersham, stopping between Finchley Road and Moor Park only at
    Harrow-on-the-Hill; services to Uxbridge and to Watford were able to
    stop between Finchley Road and Harrow-on-the-Hill on all stations or
    run as expresses.
    
    
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NEXT>8816
PREVIOUS>8805
POSTER>Sergiy Pakhomov 
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SUBJECT>Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:41 1998
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Posted by Sergiy Pakhomov on January 14, 1998 at 10:40:17:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
    posted by Mark S Feinman on January 10, 1998 at 14:54:05:
    
    There are two possibilities:
    1. tracks bettween Hatton Cross and Heathrow (now Terminals 1,2,3).
    Once the Piccadilly line has ended at Heathrow 1,2,3 Terminals as it
    is usual - dead stub. After that the line was lengthened with a loop
    through 4th. Terminal Heathrow. So the second track between Hatton
    Cross and Heathrow is not necessary right now.
    
    2. 4 tracks between South Kensington (I think) and Acton Town. When
    there was not the Picadilly line, the branch between Acton Town and
    Hounslow (now by Picadilly) was operated by the District.
    
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NEXT>8812
PREVIOUS>8809
POSTER>Gerry O'Regan 
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SUBJECT>Re: Express Lines - London.
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:43 1998
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Posted by Gerry O'Regan on January 14, 1998 at 11:23:07:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Express Lines - London. posted by Sergiy Pakhomov
    on January 14, 1998 at 10:23:19:
    
    There is also some sort of experss service involving the Picadilly and
    District Lines to the west.
    
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NEXT>8813
PREVIOUS>8811
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
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SUBJECT>Re: Express Lines - London.
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:45 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 14, 1998 at 11:55:39:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Express Lines - London. posted by Gerry O'Regan on
    January 14, 1998 at 11:23:07:
    
    I have a London Tube Diagram in front of me. 4-track express service
    is on the Picadilly (Exp) and District (Local) West of Hammersmith to
    Acton Town. There is also Express/local service on the Metropolitan
    (exp) and Jubilee (local) between Baker Str and Wembley Park. The
    section leading into Baker Street is a split and the Baker Street
    Station is not actually a cross platform connection. BTW, The northern
    part of the Jubilee used to be (2 decades ago) a branch of the
    BakerLoo (short for Baker St and Waterloo) Line.
    
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NEXT>8814
PREVIOUS>8812
POSTER>geoffrey skelsey 
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SUBJECT>Re: Express Lines - London.
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:47 1998
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Posted by geoffrey skelsey on January 15, 1998 at 11:24:10:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Express Lines - London. posted by Carl M. Rabbin
    on January 14, 1998 at 11:55:39:
    
    very good
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8813
POSTER>geoffrey skelsey 
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SUBJECT>Re: Express Lines - London.
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:49 1998
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Posted by geoffrey skelsey on January 15, 1998 at 16:22:44:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Express Lines - London. posted by Carl M. Rabbin
    on January 14, 1998 at 11:55:39:
    
    Sorry about the earlier glitch: our network has problems. Very good to
    see some London exchanges here. Of course the situation about express
    lines isn't quite as simple as prevous postings suggested! There are
    still two instances of classic NYCTA four-track express working on
    London Underground (LUL): between Baker Street and Moor Park in the
    north-west; and between Baron's Court and Acton Town (originally
    Northfields) in the west. Four tracks still exist beyond Acton Town
    but two are not regularly used.But that isn't quite the whole story.
    In three major instances LUL tracks run parallel to and alongside
    National Railways (Railtrack) lines, and LUL provide local stops and
    National Railways the fast service, with suitable interchanges and of
    course common ticketing. These are between North Acton and West
    Ruislip (Central Line); Bromley and Upminster (District Line); and
    Queen's Park and Harrow (originally Watford Junction) (Bakerloo Line).
    So far as I know there are no examples like this in NY.There were also
    examples of skip-stop working on two-track lines, but these were not
    really satisfactory. They were on the northern section of the Northern
    Line (1927-36) with overtaking loops at the station now called Brent
    Cross; on the northern section of the Piccadilly Line, until 1947; and
    on the central part of the District Line until the 1950s.In 1936 LUL
    officials visited New York to look at express working and came back
    with lots of plans and good intentions. During the 1939-45 War deep
    level sections of tube were built parallel with existing stations on
    the Northern and Central Lines at eight locations, the intention being
    to join them up to form deep express tubes. They were used as air-raid
    shelters, and in one case as a US Army Transit Camp!, but the job was
    never finished.Anyone wanting to know more about LUL is welcome to
    e-mail me. Perhaps this isn't quite the right place to clog up with
    such stuff, but I enjoy all that you guys write.Regards,Geoff
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8807
POSTER>Tim Hall 
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SUBJECT>Re: Are the facts about Moscow metro curious?
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:50 1998
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Posted by Tim Hall on January 16, 1998 at 08:52:53:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Are the facts about Moscow metro curious? posted
    by Seriey Pakhomov on January 14, 1998 at 09:58:05:
    
    Southern half of the District/Circle line between Gloucester Road and
    Tower Hill in London operates that sort of headway as well.
    
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NEXT>8817
PREVIOUS>8810
POSTER>Tim Hall 
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SUBJECT>Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:52 1998
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Posted by Tim Hall on January 16, 1998 at 08:59:41:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
    posted by Sergiy Pakhomov on January 14, 1998 at 10:40:17:
    
    To answer various questions:
    
    The Hounslow branch was originally part of the District line, and was
    joint District/Picadilly line for a time.
    
    Most of the 4-track section east of Acton town was originally built by
    the L&SWR, and only later became part of the underground network. Part
    of the LSWR viaduct survives just west of Hammersmith station, where
    the two lines once separated.
    
    I believe that the former westbound track between Hatton Cross and
    Heathrow Terminals 1,2 & 3 is still used for some early morning
    services that don't serve terminal 4.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8816
POSTER>Reggie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Who had the great foresight for Express Lines?
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:54 1998
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Posted by Reggie on January 17, 1998 at 11:07:06:

   In Reply to: [8]Who had the great foresight for Express Lines? posted
    by Reggie on January 10, 1998 at 13:57:33:
    
    Thanks for all the responses. I was aware that London has some places
    where there are four tracks but that is usually in the suburbs where
    two lines join up and one acts as an express for awhile, or where a
    spur line leaves the main line so for a few miles the spur acts as a
    local service. Also, I failed to note that Philadelphia has an
    excellent express/local four track service up and down Broad Street.
    And its blue line uses underground streetcars as a local service
    downtown.
    
    But again, I am still amazed that so few other systems failed to
    follow New York's lead with numerous express lines, both downtown and
    in the suburbs.
    
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NEXT>8822
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Soliciting On Subway Trains
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:56 1998
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Posted by Timothy on January 24, 1998 at 00:48:20:

   I remember up until several years ago, while riding the subway in New
    York, it was common to see a guy, usually Asian, board a train,
    carrying a shopping bag full of toys, and other gadgets, and selling
    them to passengers. Although I haven't seen this over the last couple
    of years, I've often wondered who these people were, and who/what they
    were selling the items for. Were they homeless? Because as I recall,
    they did not seem
    very clean.
    
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NEXT>8825
PREVIOUS>8774
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Panhandlers
DATE>Jan 30 14:19:57 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 24, 1998 at 01:26:34:

   In Reply to: [7]Panhandlers posted by Subman23 on January 23, 1998 at
    16:14:39:
    
    Strangely, this problem seems to not inflict Baltimore. This could be
    because the MTA Police (Yes, we have a real professional police
    force.) patrol the stations and arrest pandhandlers, vagrants,
    homeless (no, we don't put them in jail, just remove 'em from the
    property and try to get them help) and in general keep the subway for
    the passengers. I've seen it done and the cops usually get a hand from
    the passengers.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways - A&E Video
DATE>Jan 30 14:20:01 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 24, 1998 at 01:28:43:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Mayor Hylan and the subways posted by Steve on
    January 23, 1998 at 23:27:27:
    
    I believe the video mentioned can be ordered from A&E. Also, the BSM
    Gift Shop has the video for sale.
    
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NEXT>8829
PREVIOUS>8771
POSTER>Marc 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subway Sounds Audios
DATE>Jan 30 14:20:05 1998
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Posted by Marc on January 24, 1998 at 01:38:40:

   In Reply to: [7]Subway Sounds Audios posted by R. O. on January 23,
    1998 at 22:59:03:
    
    The Jubilee Line Extension web page features audio sounds along the
    lines of .."This is canning town, change for Docklands light railway,
    etc)
    
    The URL is listed in the Automated Train Thread
    
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NEXT>8824
PREVIOUS>8818
POSTER>Gary 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Soliciting On Subway Trains
DATE>Jan 30 14:20:13 1998
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Posted by Gary on January 24, 1998 at 02:42:20:

   In Reply to: [7]Soliciting On Subway Trains posted by Timothy on
    January 24, 1998 at 00:48:20:
    
    
    They are still on the train.
    
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NEXT>8831
PREVIOUS>10025
POSTER>Sammy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Another Ride Home Redux (or, Steve???)
DATE>Jan 30 14:20:18 1998
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Posted by Sammy on January 24, 1998 at 08:08:55:

   Look, Steve - before you get all bent out of shape, lets analyze what
    happened on that ill-fated 7th Ave train.
    1) the train ahead was stuck in a station because of whatever.
    2) During the stacking, with a train stuck behind it in the tunnel,
    the vagrant threw up all over the customer
    3) Nothing happened until the train ahead cleared.
    Now Steve, what's wrong with this picture?
    1) There was no place for the commuter to go, because the train was IN
    the tunnel instead of AT A STATION
    2) When the accident happened, the train crew did NADA as in ZIP and
    ZILCH. Supposing this vagrant was a homicidal maniac (god forbid!) And
    there was trouble? Then what would the MTA say? Gee, we're sorry? As
    per usual.....
    which leads me to number 3.......
    3) There are really no procedures for human crises, as in, if someone
    is sick, let's get him/her off the train as quickly as possible to
    minimize harm to the sick passenger and the rest of the people on the
    entire line.
    What should have happened is that these brain surgeons, i.e., the
    crew, should have radioed the tower, apprised them of the situation
    and brought the train to the platform where people could be evacuated,
    and the vagrant locked up. Obviously, new procedures are needed for
    just such situations. But naturally, the bureaucrats and the unions
    will quash these initiatives, and we, the riding public, will get
    screwed again.
    
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NEXT>8827
PREVIOUS>8822
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Soliciting On Subway Trains
DATE>Jan 30 14:20:20 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 24, 1998 at 10:10:08:

   In Reply to: [8]Soliciting On Subway Trains posted by Timothy on
    January 24, 1998 at 00:48:20:
    
    On occasion I'll see people selling trinkets on the train (batteries
    seem to be one of the more common items, don't ask me why), but more
    often they sell stuff on the platforms and in passageways. Passageways
    leading to the 7 train seem to be the most heavily used for these
    purposes.
    
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NEXT>8830
PREVIOUS>8819
POSTER>Reggie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Panhandlers
DATE>Jan 30 14:20:23 1998
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Posted by Reggie on January 24, 1998 at 10:55:03:

   In Reply to: [8]Panhandlers posted by Subman23 on January 23, 1998 at
    16:14:39:
    
    Man, panhandlers bug me for two reasons:
    
    1) They are aggressive. People who've had a hard day at the office
    don't deserve to hear a phony hard-luck story as they're riding home.
    It annoys me that the deserving, sick and truly incapacitated aren't
    the people who are making the comedy routines in the subway cars. The
    woman with two kids, burned out of her apartment, isn't the one
    working the #4 train during PM rush hours.
    
    2) A panhandler with a good routine can make more money than the
    people he's hitting up. Let's say a typical train is 8 cars long. All
    our panhandler has to do is get a quarter from only four people in
    each car and he's made $8 on this one subway train. If he does this on
    10 trains, he's earned $80 today, tax free. I wonder how many of his
    supporters are going home each week with $400 after taxes. And again,
    if his routine is good, he'll probably do better.
    
    The best way to stop this is if riders just didn't contribute. This
    seems to be a difficult request, especially if the homeless person and
    the rider are members of the same minority. However, there are plenty
    of charities that will make sure donations go to food & clothing, not
    booze & drugs.
    
    
    
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NEXT>8842
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>attaching files
DATE>Jan 30 14:20:26 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 24, 1998 at 12:05:20:

   Can anyone give us a short lesson on attaching files we wrote off line
    sych as Mark gave us on links?
    
    I am sure others wiould be interested.
    
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NEXT>8828
PREVIOUS>8824
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Soliciting On Subway Trains
DATE>Jan 30 14:20:28 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 24, 1998 at 12:28:16:

   In Reply to: [8]Soliciting On Subway Trains posted by Timothy on
    January 24, 1998 at 00:48:20:
    
    There's one who rides the D train in the afternoon. Usually the 4:00
    PM out of Bedford Park. There are others too. Oddly enough, they all
    carry the same things in bags rigged the same way. Either they are
    exchanging job tips over dinner or perhaps they are all working for
    the same person.
    Not long ago, NYPD found out that the 'hearing impaired' people that
    solicited on the trains, were virtual slaves to one woman in Queens.
    Perhaps these people are in a similar circumstance. Hmmmmmmmmmmm
    
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NEXT>8834
PREVIOUS>8827
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Soliciting On Subway Trains
DATE>Jan 30 14:20:31 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 24, 1998 at 13:04:13:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Soliciting On Subway Trains posted by Steve on
    January 24, 1998 at 12:28:16:
    
    I thought that they had gotten rid of the Mexican "slaves" who were
    selling the trinkets on the trains. There were about 20-30 of these
    hearing impaired people who were smuggled in from Mexico and forced to
    sell $100 worth of trinkets each day and then they had to give the
    money to their boss who kept it and left the Mexicans living in filthy
    and squalid conditions. They proliferated on the #7 train because the
    house where these people were living in was in Corona, right near the
    #7 train. The whole operation was busted up last summer so I don't
    know why they're back. They were also discovered in other cities like
    Chicago and around North Carolina.
    
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NEXT>8841
PREVIOUS>8821
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subway Sounds Audios
DATE>Jan 30 14:20:32 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 24, 1998 at 13:06:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Subway Sounds Audios posted by R. O. on January 23,
    1998 at 22:59:03:
    
    I have a .wav file of the sounds of the doors closing in the subway
    but I do not know how to post it on here. If somebody tells me how, I
    can do that. Also, I recorded a number of sounds in the subway on a
    mini-tape. Does anybody know how to convert this into .wav files on my
    computer? Thanks for your help with this!
    
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NEXT>8832
PREVIOUS>8825
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Panhandlers
DATE>Jan 30 14:20:34 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 24, 1998 at 13:10:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers posted by Larry Littlefield on January
    23, 1998 at 22:27:17:
    
    Funny, I just saw a similar incident about 2 months ago at the N train
    49th Street station stairway!
    
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NEXT>8852
PREVIOUS>8823
POSTER>Splat! 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Another Ride Home Redux (or, Steve???)
DATE>Jan 30 14:20:36 1998
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Posted by Splat! on January 24, 1998 at 13:20:27:

   In Reply to: [7]Another Ride Home Redux (or, Steve???) posted by Sammy
    on January 24, 1998 at 08:08:55:
    
    Ahh, The all knowing general public.....A breath of fresh ideas in the
    tunnels of travel. Yes indeed lets bring the train up into a smoke
    condition.
    Maybe a high water condition with a power shut off situation so then
    they can get towed out.
    Hey you see that stinky vagrant sitting/lying over there? Good , I'm
    gonna sit stand/over here where I don't have tio smell/look at his/her
    stinkiness.
    
    The Train crew is trained to do what they are supposed to not what you
    want them to. And if they were doing what you wanted them too they
    wouldn"t be ready/in place to do what they were supposed to.
    
    Puke on your clothes? Piss on your shoes? Steel dust in your lungs?
    Hey!,
    it's just another day in the salt mines.
    
    Those who can affect change do, those who can't complain.
    
    Last nights rain created some delays. All of 15/20 minutes. My
    favorite complaint last night was ," I paid a dime thirty years ago
    for better service."
    The loudest and most beligerant mouth in the crowd. Perhaps he should
    have left some "extra" travel time in the bad weather....Youse guys
    always add that extra color to a situation.
    
    Since your management skills are so strong, I will gladly ride your
    train for a quarter. We'll surely get there on time with no mishap.
    And the motor operator will be there with a handiwipe for your
    convienience.
    
    
    
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NEXT>8838
PREVIOUS>8830
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Panhandlers
DATE>Jan 30 14:20:39 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 24, 1998 at 13:20:56:

   In Reply to: [8]Panhandlers posted by Subman23 on January 23, 1998 at
    16:14:39:
    
    Most of the time panhandlers piss me off and scare me at times. But
    there was this one time where I was actually impressed by somebody who
    was not exactly panhandling, but in a different sort of way. There was
    this lady who came around with a bag full of sandwiches and said they
    were for anybody who was hungry, you didn't need to be homeless. And
    if you didn't want a sandwich she asked for a small donation to fund
    the program which I gladly gave. Does anybody know what this
    organization was because I'd really like to volunteer for it and help
    them out. This is the kind of panhandling we need on the subway.
    And another interesting panhandling story - There was this guy with a
    luggage cart with a black box mounted on it and it said "MAGIC" on the
    side. He stood in the middle of the car and proceeded to make a rabbit
    and a dove appear in a few tricks. I was duly impressed by his
    impromptu magic show and I was glad to fork over a buck for his
    magical talent. Now how many times do you get to see this on the
    subway?!?
    
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NEXT>8928
PREVIOUS>10022
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Pictures
DATE>Jan 30 14:20:42 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 24, 1998 at 13:25:32:

   I was wondering what the policy was on pictures of people in the
    subway. If I was writing a book and I took pictures in the subway with
    people in them clearly visible, would I need the permission of the
    people in the pictures to publish them? Thanks for answering this if
    you know the answer (Any lawyers out there?)!
    
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NEXT>8886
PREVIOUS>8828
POSTER>Timothy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Soliciting On Subway Trains
DATE>Jan 30 14:20:44 1998
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Posted by Timothy on January 24, 1998 at 15:11:25:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Soliciting On Subway Trains posted by Adam on
    January 24, 1998 at 13:04:13:
    
    I've noticed that many of those people are also Oriental (Chinese?),
    and
    I assumed that they were coming from the Chinatown area, because I've
    seen many stores in Chinatown selling the same trinkets that those
    people
    sell on the trains.
    
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NEXT>8869
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Shunya Togashi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>BMT Chambers st. station
DATE>Jan 30 14:20:46 1998
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Posted by Shunya Togashi on January 24, 1998 at 15:37:43:

   I have read lots of info about this station like about the nassau st.
    loop service, and how it used to be a terminal etc.... but i have
    another question. After going right out of the station on the Queens
    bound side, I see a little "tunnel" that cuts right into where the
    cross over is. It appears to be capable of holding double tracks. what
    was this for? was this to connect to the els or something?
    Mta goin your way
    -Shunya
    
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NEXT>8837
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>New Q train cars.
DATE>Jan 30 14:20:48 1998
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Posted by Nick on January 24, 1998 at 18:17:17:

   Does anyone know why they switched the Q trains from the D train type
    cars to the funny looking trains that look like this /=======\
    
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NEXT>8844
PREVIOUS>8836
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Q train cars.
DATE>Jan 30 14:20:51 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 24, 1998 at 18:44:31:

   In Reply to: [8]New Q train cars. posted by Nick on January 24, 1998
    at 18:17:17:
    
    We've covered this before but for the record-
    The B line is a 24 hour line while the Q is not. The R-68As were on
    the Q line and were not accumulating enough mileage, roughly 900,000
    miles per month. The R-40s on the B line were doing about double that
    mileage. Unfortunately, the R-40s, being older, need substantially
    more maintneance that the R-68As do. By putting the 40s on the Q line,
    it insured that those cars would lay up every night and get the
    maintenance they need. Say what you will, the fact is that both
    fleets' performance has substantially improved since the swap.
    
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NEXT>8840
PREVIOUS>8832
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Panhandlers
DATE>Jan 30 14:20:53 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 24, 1998 at 18:56:39:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers posted by Adam on January 24, 1998 at
    13:20:56:
    
    You've hit upon an important distinction. Unauthorized musicians or
    peddlers may not be acting legally, but I don't mind their activities
    and think that sometimes they even add a bit of character to the
    subways. But people outright begging, they're a disgrace and don't
    belong in the subways at all ... or on the streets, for that matter.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Lost in Space
DATE>Jan 30 14:20:55 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 24, 1998 at 18:57:01:

   In Reply to: [8]Another Ride Home Redux (or, Steve???) posted by Sammy
    on January 24, 1998 at 08:08:55:
    
    Sammy, you just don't get it, do you? Just because you played with
    your brother's electric trains as a child does not qualify you to run
    a railroad. What you see as a simple solution to a problem might cause
    dozens of other problems you could not en-vision.
    
    Look, a lot of people dislike the MTA - they write and tell them so.
    Just Do It. If you have a personal complaint about me, let them know
    that too. Or just E-Mail me and I'll give you the phone number for my
    boss or his boss or his. Just stop wasting everyone elses time and
    Dave's space with your petty vendetta against the MTA. Happy Flying
    >->
    
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NEXT>8846
PREVIOUS>8838
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Panhandlers
DATE>Jan 30 14:20:57 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 24, 1998 at 19:13:37:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers posted by Adam on January 24, 1998 at
    13:20:56:
    
    I also have seen and enjoyed the impromptu magic shows but I totally
    disagree with you about people who claim to feed the homeless. Let me
    tell you why.
    
    First - what time did you see this person. They don't ride the trains
    when the hungry and homeless are out. They ride when you and I are
    going to work. Why? Because we don't want the 'food' and we have the
    money.
    
    Second - These are not volunteers. I am told that they are paid for
    their time or pay for the ID and bag of food.
    
    Third - Would you eat anything out of that dirty bag? The food is not
    kept cold or maintained under any semblance of cleanliness.
    
    Before you give to them next time, ask the 'volunteer' what he or she
    does for a living.
    
    
    
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NEXT>8903
PREVIOUS>8829
POSTER>R.O 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subway Sounds Audios
DATE>Jan 30 14:21:00 1998
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Posted by R.O on January 24, 1998 at 20:19:44:

   In Reply to: [8]Subway Sounds Audios posted by R. O. on January 23,
    1998 at 22:59:03:
    
    What I'm looking for were either the R1 or R4 Units of the IND, or the
    articulated BMT D type cars, they had this distinct almost clockwork
    sound of what I think was the air compressor building up pressure.
    You'd usually hear it as the train sat in the station, awaiting a
    green light or schedual time. Then the woosh of the doors closing,
    followed by the building hum
    of the traction motors. Sounds of the 50's, 60's, and 70's. I live
    near Kingston and will check out the trolley museum here I know the
    got some cars which ones for sure I don't know. Will post again later.
    
    
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NEXT>8848
PREVIOUS>8826
POSTER>Lefty 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: attaching files
DATE>Jan 30 14:21:02 1998
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Posted by Lefty on January 24, 1998 at 20:35:08:

   In Reply to: [8]attaching files posted by subway-buff on January 24,
    1998 at 12:05:20:
    
    highlight the text from whatever program you wanna copy from, cut it
    by pressing ctrl-c, and then paste it into the text field on this
    screen by pressing ctrl-p. if you want to attach files that are online
    type:
    [9]whatever you wanna write
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lefty 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: attaching files OOPS
DATE>Jan 30 14:21:05 1998
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Posted by Lefty on January 24, 1998 at 20:36:47:

   In Reply to: [8]attaching files posted by subway-buff on January 24,
    1998 at 12:05:20:
    
    highlight the text from whatever program you wanna copy from, cut it
    by pressing ctrl-c, and then paste it into the text field on this
    screen by pressing ctrl-p. if you want to attach files that are online
    type:
    a href="http://***" whatever you wanna write /a and put the a href
    until the " after the location*** in these thingies and also the /a...
    
    
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NEXT>8879
PREVIOUS>8837
POSTER>Larry Littlefield 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Q train cars.
DATE>Jan 30 14:21:07 1998
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Posted by Larry Littlefield on January 24, 1998 at 21:19:44:

   In Reply to: [7]New Q train cars. posted by Nick on January 24, 1998
    at 18:17:17:
    
    The Brighton Line once received the best cars because it traveled
    through many of the most prestigious neighborhoods in Brooklyn:
    Prospect-- Lefferts Gardens, Prospect Park South, Ditmas Park,
    Midwood, and Sheepshead Bay. But now, many of the affluent white
    neighborhoods to the north are middle income black neighborhoods. I
    took the Brighton recently, with the idea of walking across the park.
    Most of the riders were black. I think much of the remaining white
    population takes the express buses that travel on Ocean Avenue.
    
    The B line travels through the former working class Italian and Jewish
    neighborhoods of Borough Park and Bensonhurst. While these areas are
    still not affluent, Borough Park is increasingly occupied by Hasidic
    Jews who, it is generally thought, vote in a block based on the advice
    of their rabbis. Therefore, if the rabbis say they need better train
    service (which they do), someone might feel a need to do something.
    Not something which makes things better overall, of course, but
    something.
    
    All these neighborhoods rely for their continued viability on a
    tenuous link to Manhattan over the rusting Manhattan Bridge. Based on
    a couple of trips, the Brighton seems brutally packed at rush hour,
    but with both the open Manhattan bridge tracks and the Montigue Tunnel
    at capacity (25 trains) they can't add any trains. One would think
    they make some demands on that score, rather than playing musical
    subways. The leading political spokesman for the Boro Park Hasidm is
    the head of the City Council transportation committee, and he hopes to
    run for congress, but real issues like this seem not to interest him.
    His main focus is denying permits to the West Indians (from the
    neighborhoods near the Brighton Line) who earn a decent wage offering
    private mass transit in vans.
    
    In any event, I'm told political pressure got some of the R68s
    returned to the Brighton. I just hope that, for all their failings, we
    get to keep the R46s on the F. Fortunately, in addition to my
    neighborhood the F serves yuppie Park Slope where brownstones are now
    going for almost $1 million.
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>8851
PREVIOUS>10021
POSTER>Walter 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Marker lights
DATE>Jan 30 14:21:11 1998
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Posted by Walter on January 24, 1998 at 21:23:40:

   Can anyone here supply a list or tell me where to find a list of the
    BMT marker light codes, say, from the Standards through R32s? At some
    point the TA stopped using them (and made them all red/red) because
    motormen were able to punch in routes at junction stations, but in the
    past they were important to towermen as well as passengers (how else
    could you tell from the front where an oncoming Standard was going?).
    Broad St. to Jamaica was green/green, and the NX was green/red. Who
    has a complete list? And, while we're at it, how about the BMT el
    cars, the IRT cars and the IND? I realize this is a complicated
    request, as the codes probably changed over time and as routes
    changed, but I hope it's not impossible to reconstruct.
    
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NEXT>8847
PREVIOUS>8840
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Panhandlers
DATE>Jan 30 14:21:17 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 24, 1998 at 22:13:19:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers posted by Steve on January 23, 1998 at
    23:47:22:
    
    I agree that there are "panhandlers" and there are those who truly are
    in need. Rather than give panhandlers cash, I have, many times,
    offered to buy them something to eat, the bus token or train ticket
    they need to get to that mysterious "job interview" or back wherever
    they came from and are now hopelessly lost without cash to return, etc
    etc. I have never (NEVER!) been taken up on this offer!
    
    I will not give money since I don't want to support drug habits,
    alcoholism, etc, but, as I said, no one has accepted my offers.
    Usually, the beggars try to use the angle that "you look like a busy
    person, I don't want to take your valuable time for you to buy me
    whatever, so why not just give me the money and I'll get it myself".
    To me, that is the answer I really don't want, for then I know that
    the need for whatever can't possibly be that great.
    
    As for solicitation in the transit system, it's not too bad in the
    paid areas here in Phila. I recall, however, taking my father and
    10-year old nephew to NYC a few years ago to visit the Transit Museum.
    We took the 2 from Penn Station to Brooklyn. A vendor came thru
    selling various battery-operated toys for "one dollar, five dollar,
    ten dollar". My nephew looked at me and laughed, asking whether this
    was allowed on the subway. I told him, "Don't be surprised by anything
    you see on the subway." He is nearly 18 now and he still reminds me of
    that experience.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8846
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Panhandlers
DATE>Jan 30 14:21:19 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 24, 1998 at 22:13:26:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers posted by Steve on January 24, 1998 at
    19:13:37:
    
    
    As far as I know, these "charitable" solicitations on the subway are
    illegal, regardless of the underlying motives. And I suspect that the
    charities involved don't exactly exist ...
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8842
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: attaching files
DATE>Jan 30 14:21:21 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 24, 1998 at 22:24:12:

   In Reply to: [8]attaching files posted by subway-buff on January 24,
    1998 at 12:05:20:
    
    The best you can do is cut and paste HTML or plain text into the
    field. If the HTML is invalid it will screw up the system so I will
    delete it if i find it. Better off just pasting plain text if you're
    not familiar with HTML.
    
    You can't attach an image or other non-textual material. You can't
    upload that sort of thing to the server (even if the software
    supported it I wouldn't allow it). You can make a link to anything
    that resides on another web site, though...
    
    Dave
    
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NEXT>8850
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Subman23 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Panhandlers (U.H.O.)
DATE>Jan 30 14:21:22 1998
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Posted by Subman23 on January 24, 1998 at 23:09:28:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers posted by Adam on January 24, 1998 at
    13:20:56:
    
    Adam,
    
    These people with the sandwiches are "representatives" of the United
    Homeless Organization.
    
    They are not social workers; but professional beggers. They receive
    training, literature, identification by the president of the
    organization (a Mr. Carter - I believe).
    
    They do not have proper tax identification for not for profit
    charities and are not permitted to beg on NYCTA property.
    
    Many news organizations, including Channel 2 and NY1 News have exposed
    this fraudulent organization.
    
    These "representatives" claim territory. I have observed feuds between
    so called members for encroaching on each other's territory.
    
    I have had a bad experience with this organization. A "representative"
    lambasted me (while I was wearing a suit). He pointed me out to the
    other riders and told them "See this may - he too may be homeless
    someday" and put me down for a few minutes in an attempt to get riders
    to give to his cause.
    
    
    Please don't support these con men.
    
    
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NEXT>8873
PREVIOUS>8849
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Panhandlers (U.H.O.)
DATE>Jan 30 14:21:24 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 25, 1998 at 00:26:36:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers (U.H.O.) posted by Subman23 on January
    24, 1998 at 23:09:28:
    
    AMEN
    
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NEXT>8853
PREVIOUS>8845
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Marker lights
DATE>Jan 30 14:21:28 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 25, 1998 at 00:44:15:

   In Reply to: [8]Marker lights posted by Walter on January 24, 1998 at
    21:23:40:
    
    Back in the old days, every tower in the system had a hand drawn
    chartwith the marker light arrangements for the various lines. Since
    most of the major towers have been upgraded, those signs have long
    been gone. You might try Tremont Tower on the D line (if they'll open
    the door) or Queens Plaza.
    
    I checked back and marker lights were never covered in the rule books
    on NYCT. By contrast, PATH has the markers for individual lines
    specified in Rule #155. For the record
    
    Trains Between Left Side Cab Side
    Newark and World trade Red Red
    Hoboken to 33rd St. Blue Blue
    Hoboken to World Trade Green Green
    Journal Square to 33rd St. Yellow Yellow
    Journal Sq.-Hoboken-33rd St. Yellow Blue
    
    
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NEXT>8864
PREVIOUS>8831
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Another Ride Home Redux (or, Steve???)
DATE>Jan 30 14:21:31 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 25, 1998 at 01:50:21:

   In Reply to: [8]Another Ride Home Redux (or, Steve???) posted by Sammy
    on January 24, 1998 at 08:08:55:
    
    >3) There are really no procedures for human crises, as in, if someone
    is
    >sick, let's get him/her off the train as quickly as possible to
    minimize
    >harm to the sick passenger and the rest of the people on the entire
    >line.
    
    And how do you do that if there's a train ahead of you that's
    stopped?? It's not like a giant hand comes down from the sky, peels
    back a street and picks up your train and puts it in a station.
    
    And getting the person off into the tunnel is no good. Worse actually,
    given what's down there.
    
    >What should have happened is that these brain surgeons, i.e., the
    >crew, should have radioed the tower, apprised them of the situation
    and
    >brought the train to the platform where people could be evacuated,
    and
    >the vagrant locked up.
    
    Once again, how?? Radioing it in does them no good, since it doesn't
    get the train in front of them out of the way any faster. Its not like
    you just push a button and presto!, whatever caused the BIE on the
    train ahead of you goes away.
    
    > Obviously, new procedures are needed for just
    >such situations.
    
    Why?? Because there was one failure in a system that moves a few
    BILLION people a year??
    
    >But naturally, the bureaucrats and the unions will
    >quash these initiatives, and we, the riding public, will get screwed
    >again.
    
    Yep, that's it. It's all Rudy and the Unions' fault. Blame them. Heck,
    the next time your Metrocard (tm) doesn't work on the first swipe, sue
    them.
    
    Given what the MTA was handed, the politics in NY, and what the system
    was like, the Subway really isn't that bad anymore. In fact, it looks
    better every time I'm in NY. Now the LIRR, that's another post or two,
    but the Subway really has improved a LOT in the last 15 years.
    
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NEXT>8854
PREVIOUS>8851
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Marker lights
DATE>Jan 30 14:21:34 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 25, 1998 at 01:53:08:

   In Reply to: [8]Marker lights posted by Steve on January 25, 1998 at
    00:44:15:
    
    Ummm.... isn't the left side the cab side??
    
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NEXT>8875
PREVIOUS>8853
POSTER>Mike Rothenberg 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Marker lights
DATE>Jan 30 14:21:39 1998
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Posted by Mike Rothenberg on January 25, 1998 at 02:42:05:

   In Reply to: [8]Marker lights posted by Walter on January 24, 1998 at
    21:23:40:
    
    I recollect them as follows (I'm talking about the two upper lights on
    the front end - the two lower front end lights were both always white.
    All four rear end lights were always red). This was, of course, in the
    pre-Christie St. Connection days:
    
    Brighton Express: Green/Red; Brighton Local (via tunnel): Red/Red (and
    possibly also White/White - I don't remember why); Brighton "Bridge
    Local": Green/Red; Sea Beach Express: Red/White; Culver (both local or
    rush hour express): Orange/Green; Fourth Ave. Local: Green/Green; West
    End Express Green/White; West End Local (rush hours) orange/white. I
    think the Myrtle Ave. Line trains to Nassau Street were Green/Red, but
    since it's route differed from the Brighton routes, there was no
    confusion.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8643
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New NYC Subway Map (NYCT or MTA??)
DATE>Jan 30 14:21:45 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on January 25, 1998 at 04:03:03:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New NYC Subway Map (NYCT or MTA??) posted by
    Walter on January 24, 1998 at 21:04:32:
    
    Argh! If there's any place that needs a transit map, it's NJ. It's
    hard coordinating bus connections with the cryptic timetables they
    give out now!
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8583
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142
DATE>Jan 30 14:21:49 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on January 25, 1998 at 04:12:35:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: read this for lotsa info bout the R142 posted by
    Philip Nasadowski on January 21, 1998 at 00:50:13:
    
    Pioneer III? Weren't those the trucks tested on a train of R32's early
    on? Did they prove unreliable, and if so, why then does the LIRR and
    MNRR use them?
    
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NEXT>8866
PREVIOUS>8741
POSTER>Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Theater Service
DATE>Jan 30 14:21:51 1998
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Posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 25, 1998 at 04:20:53:

   In Reply to: [8]Theater Service posted by Ed Sachs on January 23, 1998
    at 12:56:54:
    
    Mark, Ed explained it perfectly.
    
    Ed, now that you have revealed that you are one of the rare ones with
    knowledge of services before the 50s, I expect you to comment on my
    frequent, unanswered posts on old service/trackage issues :-)
    
    (E.g.: anyone challenge the apparent fact that there were no short
    line
    Nassau Loop services on Sea Beach and Brighton in the 30s and 40s?)
    
    
    
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NEXT>8889
PREVIOUS>8623
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks
DATE>Jan 30 14:21:53 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on January 25, 1998 at 04:55:28:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks posted by Steve
    B on January 19, 1998 at 09:29:08:
    
    Actually, I remember the JJ, NX, and RJ lasted after the Chrystie
    Street connection. The JJ the ran to 168th Street along with the other
    lines. I don't know if it also terminated at other points. It was on a
    subway map with the "TA" logo on the front before it was replaced by
    the "M".
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8770
POSTER>Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Sheepshead Bay Race Track
DATE>Jan 30 14:21:55 1998
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Posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 25, 1998 at 06:28:16:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Sheepshead Bay Race Track posted by Andrew Huie on
    January 23, 1998 at 22:34:08:
    
    **Right** next to (east of) the Brighton Line.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Day One on the IRT Tour
DATE>Jan 30 14:21:57 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on January 25, 1998 at 08:07:55:

   Yesterday (Saturday) I took the "Day One on the IRT" tour offered by
    the NY Transit Museum. It was led by Joe Cunningham, subway historian
    and "curator" of abandoned stations; he did a super job of leading
    this four-hour tour. We visited the 91st St. Station (Broadway IRT),
    18th St. Station (Lex IRT), and City Hall Station. Stops were also
    made at both the Grand Central and Times Square sides of the 42nd
    Street Shuttle for discussion of the original IRT routing; plus a
    visit to the Brooklyn Bridge Station tower for a demonstration. A NYCT
    supervisor accompanied us, and was in charge of having the trains drop
    us off and pick us up at the stations.
    
    I recommend this trip to all!
    
    -Todd
    
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NEXT>8906
PREVIOUS>8738
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map?
DATE>Jan 30 14:21:59 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on January 25, 1998 at 08:16:32:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map? posted by
    Alex on January 24, 1998 at 23:43:20:
    
    I have been successful in picking up a copy of The Map at about 50% of
    the stations. They limit you to one per customer. As of yesterday,
    47-50 St./6th Ave. had a large supply.
    
    It won't be easy to "post" it, as it is much larger than the average
    scanner!
    
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NEXT>8871
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Panhandlers (to Bobw)
DATE>Jan 30 14:22:00 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 25, 1998 at 11:22:35:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers (to Bobw) posted by Timothy on January
    24, 1998 at 23:53:39:
    
    Selling trinkets on the subway may not be illegal, but I wouldn't put
    it in the same category as outright begging.
    
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NEXT>8870
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>George 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32
DATE>Jan 30 14:22:02 1998
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Posted by George on January 25, 1998 at 11:37:13:

   My first question is about the R-32. There are two red lights above
    the first and last cars. What are they used for?
    Why do PATH trains have so many indicator lights next to the doors?(I
    think there is a red, green, blue, orange.)
    
    My second question is if the NYCTA planning to give a tour of Grand
    Central Terminal? The areas that are off limits to passengers?
    
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NEXT>8868
PREVIOUS>8852
POSTER>Splat 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Another Ride Home Redux (or, Steve???)
DATE>Jan 30 14:22:04 1998
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Posted by Splat on January 25, 1998 at 11:59:13:

   In Reply to: [8]Another Ride Home Redux (or, Steve???) posted by Sammy
    on January 24, 1998 at 08:08:55:
    
    Thank you Phillip for a level headed response to a rant.
    
    During my current employment at Transit I am amazed almost daily at
    the volume of trains and customers that are moved on a 24 hour basis.
    This process is made possible thru an ethnicly diverse group of people
    working
    in sometimes very isolated places. Age and gender are fully mixed.
    Actuall working condition are sometimes less than inspiring.
    Shortfalls? Sure! Room for improvement? Lots. But the "ballet"
    orchestrated by the 43,000+ employees is in itself an ongoing
    acheivment.
    
    Each day I personally do what I can to improve something, contribute
    to someone, offer directions, clean up something. The tasis
    monumental.
    Only with better and more open communication between mgmt and workers
    can the morale and performance of the system improve.
    
    This is NOT a union speech, just a guy in the tubes!!!....
    
    
    Splat
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Marker lights - Brighton Local
DATE>Jan 30 14:22:06 1998
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Posted by Ed Sachs on January 25, 1998 at 12:08:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Marker lights posted by Mike Rothenberg on January
    25, 1998 at 02:42:05:
    
    The 'via tunnel' Brighton Locals were red/red Northbound (to 57
    St/Astoria/Forest Hills) and white/white Southbound (to Coney Island).
    I'm not sure if they used different colors for the 'via bridge'
    trains.
    
    I recall from the mid-late 50s that some of the 'Bankers Specials'
    also used red/red (Culver line, Nassau Loop Southbound) and
    white/white (from 95 St/4th Ave, Nassau Loop Northbound). The only
    place that these two routes shared trackage with the Brighton Local
    was between DeKalb Ave. and the Nassau Loop/Broadway Line junction
    near South Ferry, and since they traversed the Nassau Loop one way,
    there wasn't a conflict of colors. Also, prior to the rebuilding of
    DeKalb Ave. and moving the junction trackage south of the station,
    these trains were able to go to/from the 'via tunnel' tracks via the
    bypass (express) tracks (the ones which don't stop at DeKalb.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8857
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Theater Service
DATE>Jan 30 14:22:09 1998
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Posted by Ed Sachs on January 25, 1998 at 12:13:56:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Theater Service posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on
    January 25, 1998 at 04:20:53:
    
    Thanks for the compliment. I'm not quite old enough to remember
    pre-1950s, most of what I know about that comes from consulting old
    maps. Special thanks to Sandy Gardner who gave me copies of some of
    the maps in his collection (Sandy, are you reading this)?
    
    The Brighton Line is my favorite line -- comes from growing up within
    walking distance of Neck Rd. station. I also took the subway every day
    to Stuyvesant High School (which at that time was located at 15th St
    and First Ave.). Now I live in the Chicago area and commute via Metra.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NJT Maps( was re: New NYC Subway Map (NYCT or MTA??)
DATE>Jan 30 14:22:11 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 25, 1998 at 12:36:14:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New NYC Subway Map (NYCT or MTA??) posted by
    Walter on January 24, 1998 at 21:04:32:
    
    Go to the annual Try Transit Festival in Hoboken- They'll have them
    there. Or if you'd write or call NJT ask them to send you one.
    
    These booklets are wrong though. They still show North Rahway Station
    which closed fall of 1993 and Bus 1A, 1B,2,3 and 62 at MetroPark and
    now there are 1,2,3,4,5, and 62!
    
    ps- the festival is in May
    
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NEXT>8876
PREVIOUS>8864
POSTER>Sammy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Another Ride Home Redux (or, Steve???)
DATE>Jan 30 14:22:14 1998
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Posted by Sammy on January 25, 1998 at 13:19:18:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Ride Home Redux (or, Steve???) posted by
    Splat! on January 24, 1998 at 13:20:27:
    
    All of you fail to realize what I was saying.
    
    Here are the facts
    1) A dangerous situation existed on the train
    2) The crew did nothing.
    
    END of DISCUSSION ---
    
    When the MTA and the unions give a rat's ass about the public and not
    about saving their own skin, let me know.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8835
POSTER>Timothy S. Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: BMT Chambers st. station
DATE>Jan 30 14:22:16 1998
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Posted by Timothy S. Speer on January 25, 1998 at 13:52:05:

   In Reply to: [8]BMT Chambers st. station posted by Shunya Togashi on
    January 24, 1998 at 15:37:43:
    
    You have discovered the remains of the Nassau Loop. The tracks that
    used to go through this tunnel led to the south track on the Manhatan
    Bridge, and Broadway trains used to run on the North Tracks.
    
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NEXT>8874
PREVIOUS>8863
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32
DATE>Jan 30 14:22:20 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 25, 1998 at 14:50:14:

   In Reply to: [8]NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32 posted by George on January
    25, 1998 at 11:37:13:
    
    You would probably want to contact the Transit Museum regarding
    upcoming tours. I do seem to remember a tour of Grand Central sometime
    in the past that was given by the Museum.
    Personally, I would like to see a tour of the Worth Street station
    (the previously scheduled tour was not successful because of debris on
    the platform), the lower level platform in the 42nd Street Station,
    and more parts of the 2nd Ave. Subway.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8862
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Panhandlers (to Bobw)
DATE>Jan 30 14:22:29 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 25, 1998 at 17:08:38:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers (to Bobw) posted by Peter Rosa on
    January 25, 1998 at 11:22:35:
    
    I agree. I don't mind folks selling things in the subway, but I'm
    always a little wary. A few years ago, a friend and I were coming into
    the city from Flushing on the 7. A man was selling gum, candy, etc
    from a ratty cardboard box. Obviously, no one was interested (the man
    looked a little seedy too). One of the other passengers on the car
    told us when the man had passed thru to the next car that it was a
    front - there were others working the train and, if the "salesman"
    noticed someone buying that might have taken out a wallet or wad of
    bills that looked ripe for the taking, he would advise his accomplises
    who would mug the hapless man or woman with the cash. We sort of half
    believed the fellow who told us this and that was that.
    
    We transferred at Roosevelt Ave for the IND and sure enough saw the
    "salesman" with a couple of tough-looking characters ready to switch
    to the outbound 7 as we descended from the el platform to the subway
    level. It was enough to make me think twice about buying anything or
    flashing any cash on a train.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Panhandlers (DC style)
DATE>Jan 30 14:22:33 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 25, 1998 at 17:16:13:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers posted by Dan Lawrence on January 24,
    1998 at 01:26:34:
    
    I don't know how true this is (maybe someone out there knows), but on
    a visit to DC about a year ago I noticed, as usual, the lack of
    beggars around Metro stations. However, there were loads of them on
    the trains. I was told by someone I thought would know that there is a
    homeless support group which gives them farecards since they will be
    arrested for begging around stations but "left alone" or, at worst,
    removed from a train but not from the system, if they ply their trades
    on the trains. Of course, it's tougher to do on the Metro since it
    isn't easy to pass between cars while the train is moving. Anybody
    know how true this ridiculous policy is?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8850
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Panhandlers (U.H.O.)
DATE>Jan 30 14:22:37 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 25, 1998 at 17:23:51:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Panhandlers (U.H.O.) posted by Steve on January
    25, 1998 at 00:26:36:
    
    I know panhandlers and the homeless are generally two separate issues,
    but none of us really wants to deal with either of them, especially on
    the transit system. Phila got kind of tough a few years ago and sealed
    off the concourse area (underground passage system), locking it
    between 1 AM and 5 AM. This coincided with the shutdown of subway
    service and was easy to do since no one needed to access the subway at
    these times.
    
    Two positive things resulted:
    1) The concourse was cleaner and smelled better. The homeless could no
    longer live there since they were cleared out every night when
    "lockup" time came. The crazy part of this was the outcry from
    "support" groups claiming that the homeless would freeze, etc etc.
    There is just a little nuttiness, to me, when decent folk are
    affronted by people who use public spaces for sleeping, going to the
    bathroom, etc etc.
    
    2) The "lockup" gave cleaning crews time to do maintenance work, clean
    long-neglected areas, move the homeless' cardboard box hovels (often
    breeding grounds for roaches, rats, etc), and in general spruce the
    concourse up a bit.
    
    The result - a better "public" space for people who do not treat the
    space nearly as bad as the homeless did.
    
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NEXT>8883
PREVIOUS>8870
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32
DATE>Jan 30 14:22:40 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 25, 1998 at 17:29:00:

   In Reply to: [8]NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32 posted by George on January
    25, 1998 at 11:37:13:
    
    The Red lights you are probably referring to are called Bulkhead
    Indication Lights. They serve no purpose on the open ends of the train
    but when they are at the Conductor's position, he/she uses those
    lights to indicate that the doors in the 'other zone' are closed and
    locked.
    
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NEXT>8896
PREVIOUS>8854
POSTER>Steve 
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SUBJECT>Re: Marker lights
DATE>Jan 30 14:22:43 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 25, 1998 at 17:32:50:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Marker lights posted by Philip Nasadowski on
    January 25, 1998 at 01:53:08:
    
    Not according to the PATH rule book or conventional driving manuals.
    If we drive from the left side of our cars, then the cab is on the
    right side.
    
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NEXT>8891
PREVIOUS>8868
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Another Ride Home Redux (or, Steve???)
DATE>Jan 30 14:22:46 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 25, 1998 at 17:47:00:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Ride Home Redux (or, Steve???) posted by
    Sammy on January 25, 1998 at 13:19:18:
    
    Point #1 - A dangerous situation existed on the train - WRONG, an
    unpleasant situation, a disgusting situation but not a dangerous
    situation.
    
    Point #2 - The crew did nothing - WRONG, they did not panic, they did
    not take unnecessary chances, they did not violate any rules. They got
    the train to the next station as rapidly and safely as possible.
    
    The fact is that the situation got no worse by the train crew
    observing the rules. There was no panic. The situation was contained.
    End of story.
    
    Your indefensible points of view, your biased opinions and your
    unjustified anti-MTA rhetoric have been repeatedly repudiated here.
    The MTA is far from perfect as is likely the case with the company
    (airline)you work for. However, considering where the MTA was just 10
    years ago compared with today, why don't you look inside at your
    personal motives. Better still, if you send me your address, I'll send
    you the monthly job postings and perhaps you can put your managerial
    skills to use in a place where you have an obviously strong interests.
    Women do very well within the MTA.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8722
POSTER>C A Warren 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Park Avenue highway tunnels
DATE>Jan 30 14:22:49 1998
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Posted by C A Warren on January 25, 1998 at 19:23:13:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Park Avenue highway tunnels posted by Fernando
    Perez on January 22, 1998 at 15:44:49:
    
    Thanks for more info on the Green Line.
    I had inquired about the Central Park Traverse Line.
    
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NEXT>8884
PREVIOUS>10016
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>New York City Subway Line-by-Line: The Astoria Line
DATE>Jan 30 14:22:52 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 25, 1998 at 19:29:18:

   Hi everyone! I have completed the Line-by-Line description of the
    Astoria line. I am posting it here so everybody can read it and let me
    know what you think, if I left anything out, or if anything is
    incorrect. I worked hard to get the dates accurate but they may not be
    entirely accurate. Thanks! Here it is:
    
    The Astoria Line
    Compiled by Adam Weiss
    
    The Astoria Line did not come into being until the era of the dual
    contracts, when it and the Corona (Flushing) line were constructed to
    serve the northern part of Queens. These were perhaps the most
    cooperative portions of the project since both the IRT and BMT would
    share the routes and operate them jointly.
    The original arrangement, beginning around 1920, was that the IRT (now
    the # 7) ran through the Steinway Tunnel, and the Second Avenue El ran
    over the Queensboro Bridge, and met at Queensboro Plaza. From there,
    trains ran to either Corona or Astoria.
    Queensboro Plaza Station was built with eight tracks on two levels,
    served by four island platforms. The BMT operated the northern half of
    the station and the IRT ran the southern end. The north station had
    two platforms that fit the wider ten foot BMT subway cars and two for
    the narrower el cars. The southernmost pair of tracks connected to the
    Steinway Tunnel, while the next set north connected to the Second
    Avenue El. Both of these could serve either line in Queens via
    scissors crossovers east of the platforms on either level. The
    northerly pair of tracks curved to the Astoria Line and the
    southerly pair connected to the Corona Line.
    The BMT originally operated to tail tracks west of the station,
    maintaining the upper level east, lower level west configuration along
    with Astoria north/Corona South. This was altered when the 60th St.
    tunnel was opened and connected to the northerly pair of tracks, which
    then connected to a easterly tail track for reversing direction. The
    BMT tracks descended to a lower level east of the station for a flying
    junction with the IRT.
    When the Second Avenue El was closed in 1942, the north half of the
    IRT
    station fell into disuse. Prior to 1949, IRT-sized trains ran on
    everything East/North of Queensboro Plaza. IRT trains ran through to
    Times Square and BMT trains terminated at Queensboro Plaza for
    connection to subway trains to Manhattan. The BMT used rebuilt el cars
    which were of IRT width on the Astoria line. (Prior to 1942, IRT
    trains ran from South Ferry via the Second Avenue El across the
    Queensboro Bridge. The # 3 ran to Astoria and the # 4 to Corona.)
    After the closure of the Second Avenue El, the # 8 train was on the
    Astoria Line until 1949 when the BMT took over the Astoria Line. In
    1949, it was decided to extend the BMT Subway trains to Astoria and
    discontinue the joint operation. The Astoria line became BMT-only. A
    new connection was provided from the 60th St. Tunnel to the former
    Second Avenue portion of the IRT station, and the platforms were cut
    back there and along the Astoria Line. The entire north half of
    Queensboro Plaza Station was abandoned in October 1949, along with
    most of the flying junction. Disused trackways can be seen descending
    to the former lower level along both existing lines, but the active
    trackways are those of the original IRT. The abandoned North half of
    Queensboro Plaza was torn down in 1964. One set of crossovers remains
    on the upper level as the Flushing Line's only connection to the rest
    of the system.
    The BMT-designated route from 1949 - 1964 was the # 1 train, a route
    that went along Broadway to Brighton Beach in local service. In
    addition, the # 2 train ran along the Astoria line from 1949 - 1961
    along Broadway to Fourth Avenue in local service. In the 1960s, the
    Astoria line was served by multiple lines such as the QT, the TT, and
    the RR. From 1967 - 1976, the N provided service on the Astoria line,
    extending through Broadway and to Sea Beach as an express. From 1976 -
    1986 the RR provided service on the Astoria line. For about a year in
    the mid-1980s, when the Manhattan Bridge was completely closed to
    subway traffic, the center track was used for express B service in the
    peak direction during rush hours. In addition, there was express N
    service that utilized the center track for a period of time also in
    the mid-1980s. On May 5, 1986, as the remainder of the double letter
    routes were changed, the RR was renamed the R train. In 1987, the R
    and the N changed terminals, and the N was assigned to Astoria
    service, and continues to run on the Astoria line to this day.
    In present day, the Astoria line is serviced exclusively by the N
    train. The line is entirely elevated and consists of three tracks,
    including one express track that begins just south of the 39th
    Avenue/Beebe station. There are seven stations on the Astoria line,
    including Queensboro Plaza, all of which opened for service on July
    19, 1917. The terminal stop on the line is Ditmars Boulevard, which
    consists of one island platform and two tracks. The Astoria
    Boulevard/Hoyt Avenue station has two island platforms and three
    tracks, while 30th Avenue/Grand, Broadway, 36th Avenue/Washington, and
    39th Avenue/Beebe all are serviced by two side platforms and three
    tracks.
    The N train continues to be of vital importance to the neighborhood of
    Astoria, Queens. It provides a rapid link with Manhattan, and
    continues to bring vitality and growth to the neighborhood.
    
    This Line-By-Line Posting was made possible with assistance from Gerry
    ORegan and many other people on SubTalk.
    
    
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NEXT>8881
PREVIOUS>8844
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Q train cars.
DATE>Jan 30 14:22:59 1998
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Posted by Eric B on January 25, 1998 at 21:10:37:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: New Q train cars. posted by Larry Littlefield on
    January 24, 1998 at 21:19:44:
    
    If the Hasidic West End riders have so much political power, then why
    during full bridge closings does the West End get the shaft, being
    reduced to a shuttle to Pacific or 36th St (even if the bridge is
    replaced by a Rutgers connection!)
    
    
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NEXT>8897
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Closed 33rd St passageway.
DATE>Jan 30 14:23:02 1998
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Posted by Eric B on January 25, 1998 at 21:34:37:

   Go to transit newsgroup for rough diagram of passageway and
    surrounding areas. It often comes up on this board and the newsgroup.
    
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NEXT>8927
PREVIOUS>8879
POSTER>Larry Littlefield 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Q train cars.
DATE>Jan 30 14:23:06 1998
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Posted by Larry Littlefield on January 25, 1998 at 22:43:33:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: New Q train cars. posted by Eric B on January 25,
    1998 at 21:10:37:
    
    There is power and then there is power. In New York, inertia is the
    greatest power. The Manhattan Bridge problem is the result of doing
    nothing.
    
    One day I got really irritated about it, and wasted my time by calling
    the State Senator from Borough Park, who in a classic gerrymander also
    represents me. His staff was telling me that yet transportation is a
    priority, and gave the R68 switch as an example of him in action. What
    good will that do, I asked him, if the bridge eventutally goes out of
    action. MTA's problem, he said.
    
    
    
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NEXT>8895
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
DATE>Jan 30 14:23:09 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 25, 1998 at 23:31:16:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Frankford Transportation Center (Was Lack of SEPTA
    Maps (Also Answer to DB's Question) posted by Bobw on January 24, 1998
    at 17:29:16:
    
    Bridge and Pratt Streets are the two streets at either end of the
    station. One is the corner of Bridge St. and Frankford Ave., the other
    is Pratt St. and Frankford Ave. The station just south of it is called
    Margaret-Orthodox (Arrot), the three streets it crosses. I always
    thought they should just pick one name and let it go at that.
    
    There was a song with the Subject line stated 3 times, then:
    "'Cause the Frankford El goes to 69th St...
    You can't get to heaven on the Frankford El."
    
    There was a radio announcer in Philadelphia for decades whose name
    was:
    Frank Ford. It was a stage name based on the neighborhood.
    
    Also, I work with someone also named Frank Ford; it's his real name
    and has no connection with Philadelphia.
    
    Last Philadelphia subway joke:
    
    What the next number in this sequence: 2,5,8,11,13,15?
    
    Of course, it's... 30, the next stop on the Market Street Subway.
    I know, in NYC they say: 8,14,23,28,34....42 (stops on the BMT).
    
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NEXT>8885
PREVIOUS>8874
POSTER>Alex 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32
DATE>Jan 30 14:23:13 1998
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Posted by Alex on January 26, 1998 at 08:48:02:

   In Reply to: [8]NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32 posted by George on January
    25, 1998 at 11:37:13:
    
    The two red lights over the door are the marker lights which were used
    to identify trainsby tower operators. See the thread named 'Marker
    lights' for more info.
    
    As for your hopes of a tour, Grand Central Terminal belongs to MTA
    Metro-North Railroad not MTA NYCT, so a tour would likely come from
    them. If you mean the non-public areas of the '42nd St.- Grand Cental'
    station, most of it seems to be undergoing some sort of renovation
    work, especially in the area of the Grand Central Master Tower -
    midway between the 4,5 & 6 platform and the shuttle platform.
    
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NEXT>8894
PREVIOUS>8878
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York City Subway Line-by-Line: The Astoria Line
DATE>Jan 30 14:23:15 1998
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Posted by Ed Sachs on January 26, 1998 at 09:32:27:

   In Reply to: [8]New York City Subway Line-by-Line: The Astoria Line
    posted by Adam on January 25, 1998 at 19:29:18:
    
    > The southernmost pair of tracks connected to the Steinway Tunnel,
    > while the next set north connected to the Second Avenue El. Both of
    > these could serve either line in Queens via scissors crossovers east
    of
    > the platforms on either level.
    
    Actually, the lower crossovers were west of the Queensboro Plaza
    station.
    
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NEXT>8936
PREVIOUS>8883
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32
DATE>Jan 30 14:23:18 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on January 26, 1998 at 09:33:04:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32 posted by Alex on
    January 26, 1998 at 08:48:02:
    
    On the Day One of the IRT tour I took on Saturday, we had a chance to
    visit the area under construction midway between the Shuttle and 4/5/6
    area. That included a look at the spot where August Belmont had his
    private entrance into the subway -- along the curved section of track
    that connects Shuttle Track 1 to the downtown Lex local.
    
    We were not able to get all the way to the tower due to the
    construction. Our tour guide explained that the area is being
    outfitted with offices and storage areas.
    
    It was very dusty in the area due to the construction! And that's
    Transit and Weather Together *smile*.
    
    -Todd
    
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NEXT>8920
PREVIOUS>8834
POSTER>John B. Bredin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Soliciting On Subway Trains
DATE>Jan 30 14:23:20 1998
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Posted by John B. Bredin on January 26, 1998 at 09:41:33:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Soliciting On Subway Trains posted by Adam on
    January 24, 1998 at 13:04:13:
    
    Yes, we had the deaf "vendors" on the subway/L in Chicago. They walked
    through a car, placing the trinkets (usually those tiny teddy bears
    you put on the end of a pencil) on the empty seats next to passengers
    (they did this strictly at off-peak hours), and then walked through
    again to collect the money from the passengers who were keeping the
    trinkets or pick them up from those who were not.
    
    Oddly enough, when the police raided the apartment building where they
    were staying, they said that it wasn't quite the "slavery" arrangement
    it was in NYC, though the operations were run by the same set of
    people. Haven't seen them since, though.
    
    Didn't hear about them in North Carolina. Where did they ply their
    trade there, there being no rapid transit system there?
    
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NEXT>8935
PREVIOUS>10015
POSTER>Lou from Middletown 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Historical R-10s?
DATE>Jan 30 14:23:22 1998
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Posted by Lou from Middletown on January 26, 1998 at 09:44:58:

   This morning on the channel 5(NY) news, they had a a helicopter shot
    of the Belt Parkway somewhere (I had the sound off-listinin' to
    Howard!), and in this shot there was what looked like a trainset of
    R-10 units painted in the blue/cream color scheme of hte late
    60's-early 70's. Question were these R-10's or are they R-36's that
    they are going save with their original paint job?? (And if they
    weren't 36's that would be a helluva idea for the TA (oh okay
    NYCT-shows my age!) to do, don't you think??
    
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NEXT>8898
PREVIOUS>10012
POSTER>David Pirmann - Web Site Host 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Www.nycsubway.org News - 1/26/1998
DATE>Jan 30 14:23:28 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann - Web Site Host on January 26, 1998 at

   
                            WWW.NYCSUBWAY.ORG NEWS
                                       
    
                              Issue 2. 1/26/1998
                                       
    
                                  New Stuff
                                       
    Here's an overview of the New Stuff posted recently:
    
    
      * [8]New York, Westchester, & Boston: A few articles from 1912
        describing the construction and operation of the NYW&B (which
        contributed the Dyre Av. Branch to the NYC Subway). Some photos
        too, with more to come!
      * [9]Building the NYC Subway: A new page which combines our Second
        Av., NYW&B, _The New York Subway: Its Construction and Equipment_,
        and a new page on the [10]Triboro System (the forerunner to the
        Dual Contracts system).
      * [11]The NYC Subway Line by Line: This section is finally starting
        to be fleshed out with contributions from our volunteers. We have
        updated pages on the West End, Culver, Sea Beach, and Astoria BMT
        lines, with a page on the IRT Woodlawn line coming this week, once
        I mark it up. Thanks, volunteers! There's still more to do, so
        check out the [12]Volunteering Ideas page.
      * [13]Demolition of the Culver Shuttle: A new page of photos from
        the mid-1980s demolition of the Culver Shuttle contributed by Jeff
        Saltzman. This is part of the Culver line page in the Line by Line
        section but thought it should be listed seperately.
      * [14]See a list of all pages on the site in order by date of last
        modification.
        
                             Call for Volunteers
                                       
    Don't forget, volunteers are always welcome! I've put together a list
    of [15]Volunteering Ideas that might give you some impetus to
    contribute!
    
                               Announcements...
                                       
      * Our [16]Track Maps, provided by Peter Dougherty, are now available
        as a spiral-bound book, perfect for carrying with you on subway
        expeditions. Contact Peter at [17]brakeman@nycsubway.org for
        details.
      * I am working on a CD-ROM of images from Brooklyn and Third Avenue
        (Bronx-Westchester) trolleys. If you'd be interested in purchasing
        one for approx. $20, it would help fund web site development and
        offset my hardware costs. So far there are about 770 TARS images
        and over 300 Brooklyn trolley images.
      * Our Internet connection is graciously donated by [18]NetK2NE
        Internet. We thank them for their patience and ongoing support.
        
    Any feedback is of course welcome, via [19]SubTalk, or the
    [20]Feedback Form.
    
    --Dave
    
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8858
POSTER>Steve B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks
DATE>Jan 30 14:23:31 1998
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Posted by Steve B on January 26, 1998 at 10:17:49:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Broadway (Brooklyn) Express Tracks posted by
    Andrew Huie on January 25, 1998 at 04:55:28:
    
    Yes, that's correct. I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. The JJ,
    RJ, and NX did operate after the Chrystie St. connection opened. As a
    matter of fact, the RJ and NX debuted when the connection opened. All
    three routes were dropped on July 1, 1968. I have the same map you're
    talking about.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8740
POSTER>Steve B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Triplex Head End Signs
DATE>Jan 30 14:23:34 1998
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Posted by Steve B on January 26, 1998 at 10:43:45:

   In Reply to: [8]Triplex Head End Signs posted by Ed Sachs on January
    23, 1998 at 12:34:37:
    
    I know about the green/white illumination of the bulkhead signs on
    Triplex units, having read Brian Cudahy's excellent book, "Under the
    Sidewalks of New York". Unfortunately, I never got to ride them in
    revenue service. I rode the subway for the first time on July 21,
    1965, literally days before the last Triplex units were withdrawn. The
    first train I rode was (I'm pretty sure) an N made up of
    brand-spanking new R-32s, which I boarded at 36th St.-4th Ave. Back
    then, the side destination signs were illuminated in green on these
    cars; the upper signs on the first train I rode said "57th St.", hence
    my conclusion it was an N train. I have seen the Triplex unit
    displayed at the Transit Museum; a train of Triplex units was used in
    "Class of '44".
    
    
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NEXT>8893
PREVIOUS>8876
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Another Ride Home Redux (or, Steve???)
DATE>Jan 30 14:23:36 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 26, 1998 at 10:45:13:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Ride Home Redux (or, Steve???) posted by
    Steve on January 25, 1998 at 17:47:00:
    
    Whatever the merits (or lack thereof) of Sammy's postings, it doesn't
    make much sense to rationalize away the Transit Authority's
    shortcomings by pointing out how much worse things were 10 years ago.
    That doesn't matter, not anymore. It may well be that the train crew
    acted properly in the incident in question. If so, pointing that out
    is the appropriate response. Mentioning the last 10 years'
    improvements means nothing.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Q train cars. (I Love the R40)
DATE>Jan 30 14:23:38 1998
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on January 26, 1998 at 10:56:22:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: New Q train cars. posted by Steve on January 24,
    1998 at 18:44:31:
    
    As one of those Q line riders who happens to be white and non Russian
    too, I love the 40 slants. Took my 4 yr old nephew on a head end run.
    The 40 is the only car type he can stand on his own two feet and look
    at the front (my arms thank you R40!!). He stood the whole ride from
    50st to Kings Highway making believe he was the driving the train.
    He told me we had 10 coaches and the D train had only 8 as we passed
    it on the bridge (thanks to PBS and Thomas the Tank Engine for the
    coaches).
    
    R40, has better heat. Love the warm toasty tush if you do get a seat.
    Better side windows too and the best A/C of the lot.
    
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NEXT>8900
PREVIOUS>8891
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Another Ride Home Redux (or, Steve???)
DATE>Jan 30 14:23:41 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 26, 1998 at 11:00:42:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Ride Home Redux (or, Steve???) posted by
    Philip Nasadowski on January 25, 1998 at 01:50:21:
    
    I agree with you. I've said many times (a few in this space) that the
    MTA is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. Clearly, much
    progress has been made since the early 1980's. I think people need to
    think back to what conditions were like then and compare to them to
    the present. They also need to consider other things also such as the
    size of the system, 24hr service and just how old the system is. No
    other city has an extensive transportation network like NYC. I've
    heard many people compare NYCT to systems like WMATA or MARTA. The
    latter two subway systems are less than 30 years old, a fraction of
    our size and they shut down each night. The MTA/NYCT does not get the
    credit it deserves. I wonder what these people would say if MTA and
    it's services suddenly disappeared.
    
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NEXT>8911
PREVIOUS>8884
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York City Subway Line-by-Line: The Astoria Line
DATE>Jan 30 14:23:43 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 26, 1998 at 11:09:18:

   In Reply to: [7]New York City Subway Line-by-Line: The Astoria Line
    posted by Adam on January 25, 1998 at 19:29:18:
    
    One small change:
    
    In the 1960s:
    The T (Test End Express) ran to Astoria weekday rush hours (6-9, 3-7)
    and all day Saturday.
    
    The main 24 hours-a-day service was the QT or QB depending on whether
    it was bridge or tunnel service (QT weekdays 6AM-7PM, QB the rest of
    the time).
    
    The TT (West End local) always ran from Bay Parkway to Chambers St.
    
    
    
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NEXT>8899
PREVIOUS>8882
POSTER>DB 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
DATE>Jan 30 14:23:45 1998
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Posted by DB on January 26, 1998 at 11:13:02:

   In Reply to: [7]Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El posted
    by Carl M. Rabbin on January 25, 1998 at 23:31:16:
    
    I take it the same philosophy holds true at the York-Dauphin station?
    Gee, why didn't they realy 'simplify' and call the stations 2-Market
    5-Market 8-market 11-market........
    
    
    
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NEXT>8902
PREVIOUS>8875
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Marker lights
DATE>Jan 30 14:23:48 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 26, 1998 at 11:19:46:

   In Reply to: [7]Marker lights posted by Walter on January 24, 1998 at
    21:23:40:
    
    Not only did BMT standards have marker light (my father could tell
    which train was pulling in in a second), but the IRT had them also. On
    the oldest cars, they used square lanterns that had 4 tints on the
    four sides. IND trains had color markers also.
    
    After the Big Change in 1967, color markers were still used for a
    number of years, just not on the trains that had no markers built into
    them. So really every line in the city had its distintive 2-color
    marking.
    
    It is also important to say which one was on the left, and which one
    was on the right (and which way do we mean by "left" and "right").
    Someone in another post here wrote that Brighton locals and expresses
    both used red and green. I think one was:
    
    Red Green
    
    and the other was:
    
    Green Red
    
    Anyway, I am sure someone in the MTA has that list somewhere.
    
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NEXT>8904
PREVIOUS>8880
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Closed 33rd St passageway.
DATE>Jan 30 14:23:50 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 26, 1998 at 11:22:17:

   In Reply to: [7]Closed 33rd St passageway. posted by Eric B on January
    25, 1998 at 21:34:37:
    
    Huh? Not all of us know what you mean by "Go to transit newsgroup".
    And do you mean 33rd St at 6th Avenue? Or somewhere else? And what is
    it that often comes up on this board and the newsgroup? Please
    explain.
    
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NEXT>8901
PREVIOUS>8888
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Www.nycsubway.org News - 1/26/1998
DATE>Jan 30 14:23:54 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 26, 1998 at 11:26:55:

   In Reply to: [7]Www.nycsubway.org News - 1/26/1998 posted by David
    Pirmann - Web Site Host on January 26, 1998 at 10:13:11:
    
    Having just read the Triborough System article from the 1910 ENR, I am
    puzzled by their use of the term "Elm St. subway". Can anyone confirm
    that this term was in common usage, and what it refers to in terms of
    the original route?
    
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NEXT>8955
PREVIOUS>8895
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
DATE>Jan 30 14:23:57 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 26, 1998 at 11:38:44:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
    posted by DB on January 26, 1998 at 11:13:02:
    
    Yes, every station with entrances at two streets seems to have a
    double name:
    
    Race-Vine, Walnut-Locust, Lombard-South, Ellsworth-Federal,
    Tasker-Morris, 30th-31st Streets (believe it or not),
    Susquehanna-Dauphin, 15-16th, 12-13th, 9-10th. The last 3 are now
    PATCO stations but originally were part of the Broad Street-Ridge
    Avenue-Camden system run by SEPTA/PTC.
    
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NEXT>8958
PREVIOUS>8893
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Another Ride Home Redux (or, Steve???)
DATE>Jan 30 14:23:59 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 26, 1998 at 11:54:57:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Another Ride Home Redux (or, Steve???) posted by
    Peter Rosa on January 26, 1998 at 10:45:13:
    
    This ongoing difference of opinion between Sammy and Steve will
    probably never end, and what I am about to add won't help, but Sammy,
    if you really are an airline attendant, and someone on board can't
    find a barf bag in time to prevent soiling his seatmate, do you insist
    that the pilot land the plane? The apologists for the Transit System
    are trying to make the point that proceeding into the station against
    the rules would be a similar overreaction. Granted, no employee was
    available with paper towels and a damp washcloth, but surely enough
    good samaritans were able to offer a tissue, or whatever it took to
    render the bad situation less than dangerous.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8898
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Www.nycsubway.org News - 1/26/1998
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:03 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 26, 1998 at 12:02:36:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Www.nycsubway.org News - 1/26/1998 posted by Gary
    Jacobi on January 26, 1998 at 11:26:55:
    
    Check out the [9]first chapter of the IRT Book. The first few
    paragraphs talk about the Elm St. Route. The section of 4th Ave. below
    some point (Astor Place, I think) was Elm St.
    
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NEXT>8905
PREVIOUS>8896
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Marker lights
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:06 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 26, 1998 at 12:04:36:

   In Reply to: [7]Marker lights posted by Walter on January 24, 1998 at
    21:23:40:
    
    There is a chart showing marker lights on the BMT maps issued at the
    time of the first (1939) world's fair. This, in turn, appears in one
    of the popular books on NYC transit, most likely "Under the Sidewalks
    of NY", or "Brooklyn Elevateds".
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8841
POSTER>Steve B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subway Sounds Audios
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:09 1998
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Posted by Steve B on January 26, 1998 at 12:13:12:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Subway Sounds Audios posted by R.O on January 24,
    1998 at 20:19:44:
    
    Ah, memory lane. I also remember the building hum of the motors as one
    of those old trains gathered speed - it was music to my ears. The BMT
    standards also had the same hum. There were some subtle differences in
    braking sounds between the standards and R1/9s, as well as door
    sounds. On the standards, as a train came to a stop, you'd hear a
    "tchhh" just before the doors opened. The doors on the standards
    opened and closed quietly and evenly. Every once in a while, one of
    the doors would be improperly adjusted, and would whip open and slam
    shut. On R1/9s, as a train slowed, you'd hear a "tchh-ssss", usually
    more than once. Just before the doors opened, you'd hear a clunk as
    the conductor would trip the first of two triggers (which unlocked the
    doors), then a "ksss" as the second trigger was tripped. The doors
    would then open. Apparently, the pneumatic pistons were dampened in
    that the doors would open rapidly initially, momentarily stop about
    4/5 of the way, and then slowly open the rest of the way. The doors on
    the R-10s sounded and functioned the same way. When the conductor was
    ready to close the doors, he'd push down the trigger cap, releasing
    both triggers. There was a short "ts", the doors would close and lock
    with an audible clunk and "tsh", and with a characteristic jerk, off
    we went!
    
    I didn't care much for the standards, probably because they didn't
    have bulkhead signs, but I loved the R1-9s, especially if the first
    car didn't have headlights. Unfortunately, I can't speak of the
    Triplex units, as I never had a chance to ride them.
    
    
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NEXT>8909
PREVIOUS>8897
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Closed 33rd St passageway.
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:11 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 26, 1998 at 12:18:08:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Closed 33rd St passageway. posted by Carl M.
    Rabbin on January 26, 1998 at 11:22:17:
    
    The reference is to the nyc.transit newsgroup. Some of the Subtalk
    regulars are regulars on nyc.transit, and vice versa.
    The passageway in question ran from the Penn Station IRT station
    (1/2/3/9 to the Herald Square B/D/F/Q/N/R/Path station.
    
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NEXT>8974
PREVIOUS>8902
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Marker lights
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:12 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 26, 1998 at 12:29:15:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Marker lights posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January
    26, 1998 at 11:19:46:
    
    There's a [9]1976 List of Marker Lights right here on the site.
    
    -Dave
    
    
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NEXT>8908
PREVIOUS>8861
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map?
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:14 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 26, 1998 at 12:36:41:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map? posted by
    Alex on January 24, 1998 at 23:43:20:
    
    Thanks, Alex, for the crystal clear answer to question number one.
    Since my original post is wiped away (Awfully quickly, I might say,
    Dave):), let me restate my wish that someone call MTA and ask if THEY
    intend to update their website map.
    
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NEXT>8929
PREVIOUS>8754
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Chestnut Street & other "no car" streets
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:16 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 26, 1998 at 13:03:35:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Chestnut Street & other "no car" streets posted by
    Bobw on January 24, 1998 at 17:46:17:
    
    I believe the experience with Sacramento's "K St. mall" can shed some
    light. Sacramento tried to stem the flow of businesses from K Street
    in the 60's by closing it off to cars, and adding pavement and "Street
    Art" to form a pedestrian mall. It was funded by the remaining
    businesses, many of whom gave up and moved out eventually. However,
    when light rail transit was allowed to occupy the stretch between 12th
    St. and 7th St. in 1986, a renaissance of sorts did occur, and
    continues to this day. Not a complete turnaround by any means, but a
    definite upturn. The Transit angle seemed to be the key: people won't
    drive and park on the street to shop downtown, pedestrian mall or not!
    
    
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NEXT>8922
PREVIOUS>8906
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map?
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:19 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 26, 1998 at 13:04:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map? posted by
    Gary Jacobi on January 26, 1998 at 12:36:41:
    
    Gary-- it's either expire them quickly so as to keep about 100 posts
    online, or two things happens: A) people complain it takes too long to
    load B) the software starts to screw up the posts because it takes too
    long to rewrite the index each time....
    
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NEXT>8910
PREVIOUS>8904
POSTER>John Stewart 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Closed 33rd St passageway.
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:21 1998
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Posted by John Stewart on January 26, 1998 at 13:40:09:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Closed 33rd St passageway. posted by Peter Rosa on
    January 26, 1998 at 12:18:08:
    
    What is the address of the nyc.transit newsgroup website. I tried
    http://www.nyc.transit and this didn't seem to work.
    
    Thank you.
    
    
    
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NEXT>8933
PREVIOUS>8909
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Closed 33rd St passageway.
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:24 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 26, 1998 at 13:47:50:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Closed 33rd St passageway. posted by John Stewart
    on January 26, 1998 at 13:40:09:
    
    nyc.transit is a newsgroup, not a website.
    
    Your browser might be able to call it up as news://nyc.transit
    but this would require you having an NNTP server defined in your
    browser preferences.
    
    If your ISP doesn't offer newsgroups, you can use DejaNews, which is a
    web interface to newsgroups, at http://www.dejanews.com
    
    
    
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NEXT>8924
PREVIOUS>8894
POSTER>Steve B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York City Subway Line-by-Line: The Astoria Line
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:27 1998
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Posted by Steve B on January 26, 1998 at 14:28:10:

   In Reply to: [8]New York City Subway Line-by-Line: The Astoria Line
    posted by Adam on January 25, 1998 at 19:29:18:
    
    Actually, the RR began running to Astoria with the opening of the
    Chrystie St. connection in November of 1967, at which time the QT was
    dropped, the T was replaced by the B, and the QB became a rush hour,
    peak direction service. It continued to run to Astoria until it
    switched terminals with the N in the late 80s and began running to
    Forest Hills. Interestingly enough, the RR ran to Forest Hills prior
    to 1967, but not at all times - most likely during weekdays only, 6 AM
    - 7 PM or similar.
    
    
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NEXT>8913
PREVIOUS>10026
POSTER>Dwayne J. Davis 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Second avenue and the Bronx
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:29 1998
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Posted by Dwayne J. Davis on January 26, 1998 at 14:45:18:

   Does anyone have the map that was displayed when the idea of a second
    avenue subway was seemingly resurected? I was wondering where would it
    go once it got into the Bronx?
    
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NEXT>8914
PREVIOUS>8912
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Second avenue and the Bronx
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:31 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 26, 1998 at 14:54:39:

   In Reply to: [7]Second avenue and the Bronx posted by Dwayne J. Davis
    on January 26, 1998 at 14:45:18:
    
    I don't have a map, but the general concensus here is that was going
    to connect to the Pelham Bay line, and possibly use the NYCentral
    tracks up Webster Avenue to replace the 3rd Avenue Line. I think it
    was shown in newspapers about 30 years ago.
    
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NEXT>8918
PREVIOUS>8913
POSTER>wsteil 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Second avenue and the Bronx
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:34 1998
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Posted by wsteil on January 26, 1998 at 15:29:15:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Second avenue and the Bronx posted by Carl M.
    Rabbin on January 26, 1998 at 14:54:39:
    
    Check out THE SECOND AVE. SUBWAY in the HISTORICAL OPERATIONS section
    of this site. There are reports as well as maps of the proposed route.
    
    
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NEXT>8916
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>AF 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>From LI to anywhere in NYC for $1.50
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:37 1998
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Posted by AF on January 26, 1998 at 16:27:51:

   At Hempstead Bus Terminal transfer to N6, take it to 179th Street in
    Jamaica to the F train. That simple! Only with Metrocard.
    
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NEXT>8917
PREVIOUS>8915
POSTER>AF 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>From LI to anywhere in NYC for $1.50
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:40 1998
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Posted by AF on January 26, 1998 at 16:27:53:

   At Hempstead Bus Terminal transfer to N6, take it to 179th Street in
    Jamaica to the F train. That simple! Only with Metrocard.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8916
POSTER>AF 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>From LI to anywhere in NYC for $1.50
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:44 1998
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Posted by AF on January 26, 1998 at 16:28:50:

   At Hempstead Bus Terminal transfer to N6, take it to 179th Street in
    Jamaica to the F train. That simple! Only with Metrocard.
    
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NEXT>8919
PREVIOUS>8914
POSTER>Larry Littlefield 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Second avenue and the Bronx
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:49 1998
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Posted by Larry Littlefield on January 26, 1998 at 16:45:37:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Second avenue and the Bronx posted by wsteil on
    January 26, 1998 at 15:29:15:
    
    I believe the current proposal is to try to fund and build the part
    from the connection to the Broadway Express tracks at 63rd Street to
    96th Street. What happens after than would probably depend on
    circumstances.
    
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NEXT>8921
PREVIOUS>8918
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Second avenue and the Bronx
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:51 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 26, 1998 at 16:57:38:

   In Reply to: [7]Second avenue and the Bronx posted by Dwayne J. Davis
    on January 26, 1998 at 14:45:18:
    
    You will have to specify what decade the version of alleged
    resurrection was proposed in. Seriously, I think reading the EIS in
    the second avenue part of this website will fill you in.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8886
POSTER>Bobbie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Soliciting On Subway Trains
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:55 1998
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Posted by Bobbie on January 26, 1998 at 18:06:21:

   In Reply to: [7]Soliciting On Subway Trains posted by Timothy on
    January 24, 1998 at 00:48:20:
    
    I still see the Asian guys with the trinkets, and now I've noticed a
    resurgence of hearing imparied people on the R train!
    
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NEXT>8923
PREVIOUS>8919
POSTER>Mellow One 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Second avenue and the Bronx
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:57 1998
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Posted by Mellow One on January 26, 1998 at 18:15:06:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Second avenue and the Bronx posted by Larry
    Littlefield on January 26, 1998 at 16:45:37:
    
    The route in the Bronx would have been the New Haaven Tracks to the
    Dyre Ave line. See www.nycsubway.org for details and late news.
    
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NEXT>8925
PREVIOUS>8908
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map?
DATE>Jan 30 14:24:59 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 26, 1998 at 18:47:34:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map? posted by
    David Pirmann on January 26, 1998 at 13:04:22:
    
    I understand the need to clean house, but this is the first time I've
    noticed it on a Monday. I often don't get on the web over the weekend,
    and hope to have some feedback from weekend-only web surfers when I
    get back to the office. This is the first time my previous weeks posts
    were gone, and I couldn't check.
    
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NEXT>8930
PREVIOUS>8921
POSTER>Dwayne J. Davis 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Second avenue and the Bronx
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:01 1998
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Posted by Dwayne J. Davis on January 26, 1998 at 18:53:23:

   Thanks for all of the feed back. I was curious on the subject because
    I live in the Bronx I rely on the Dyre line compleatly for all
    transportation to the city. I think that more service to the area is
    necessary. Service is horrible. I guess now it is impossible to
    connect the line to the new line if it is ever built. Some parts of
    the old ny. westchester and boston line has been demolished just south
    of E. 180 th street. Would it be possible to connect to either the
    concourse line or use the metro north right of way and then on either
    line continue eastward and provide crosstown service for the Bronx? Do
    any of you guys think that this would work? Why? Why not?
    
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NEXT>8941
PREVIOUS>8911
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York City Subway Line-by-Line: The Astoria Line
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:03 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 26, 1998 at 19:01:34:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York City Subway Line-by-Line: The Astoria
    Line posted by Steve B on January 26, 1998 at 14:28:10:
    
    Did the N also run from 1967-1976 along with the RR as I have written
    or is this not correct? I found this information on an offsite
    website.
    --Adam
    
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NEXT>8937
PREVIOUS>8922
POSTER>John Betancourt 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map?
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:05 1998
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Posted by John Betancourt on January 26, 1998 at 19:02:56:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map? posted by
    Gary Jacobi on January 26, 1998 at 18:47:34:
    
    I have maps which are quite new, and I see confusements!!!
    The D,Q train line has me confused bcause the Q train is not in yellow
    on the map, but in the terminal in queens near JFK, I've seen it in
    yellow!
    Please help me clear my mind!
    John Betancourt
    mustangboy15@hotmail.com
    P.S. I am a e-mail person on the weekends and on tuesdays thursdays! I
    need a person to tell a problem!
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8742
POSTER>J.Betancourt 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Commuter Horror Stories
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:07 1998
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Posted by J.Betancourt on January 26, 1998 at 19:14:43:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Commuter Horror Stories posted by Steve on January
    24, 1998 at 00:00:24:
    
    Try picturing a #6 train Chopping a Rat!!!
    ( The train takes it like a little boom!!)
    Or try looking at a number 4 train key a light about 5 minutes behind
    a 5 train!
    John Betancourt
    mustangboy15@ hotmail.com
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8881
POSTER>David L. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Q train cars.
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:09 1998
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Posted by David L. on January 26, 1998 at 19:20:35:

   In Reply to: [7]New Q train cars. posted by Nick on January 24, 1998
    at 18:17:17:
    
    It seems to me that half of the Q trains are R32's and the other half
    is R-40's.
    
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NEXT>8931
PREVIOUS>8833
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Pictures
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:11 1998
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Posted by Joe M on January 26, 1998 at 19:46:51:

   In Reply to: [7]Pictures posted by Adam on January 24, 1998 at
    13:25:32:
    
    
    I believe the subway is considered a public place and photo releases
    are not required but I am not a lawyer and the transit system may have
    some policy. Someone else may know about the transit system issue. I
    know it was brought up in a Boston rail fan post a few weeks ago.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8907
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Chestnut Street & other "no car" streets
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:14 1998
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Posted by Joe M on January 26, 1998 at 19:51:30:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Chestnut Street & other "no car" streets posted by
    Gary Jacobi on January 26, 1998 at 13:03:35:
    
    
    Memphis had a situation like this with a long pedestrian mall. It is
    now home to the historic streetcar line and things are turning around
    rather nicely, but not fast enough for some of the business people
    that expected instant gratification.
    
    
    
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NEXT>8962
PREVIOUS>8923
POSTER>Dan Schwartz 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Second avenue and the Bronx
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:18 1998
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Posted by Dan Schwartz on January 26, 1998 at 20:35:52:

   In Reply to: [8]Second avenue and the Bronx posted by Dwayne J. Davis
    on January 26, 1998 at 18:53:23:
    
    There was once a plan to extend the IND Concourse (D) line across
    Bronx Park to Burke Ave. and White Plains Rd. It would then have
    continued east to Boston Rd. The plan was dropped when the city bought
    the NYWB right of way. But there is no reason that the part between
    205 St. station and Burke Av./White Plains Rd. couldn't still be
    built. It would provide an alternate route to Manhattan for travelers
    on the White Plains Rd. line or, if they are willing to change at
    180th St. and backtrack a few stops, on the Dyre Ave. line as well.
    
    Considering that the route from 180th St. to Manhattan is one of the
    city's oldest, I think having this alternative would be very
    desirable.
    
    I was also disappointed when the remnants of the Dyre Ave./NYWB line's
    connection to the New Haven line (Amtrak NE corridor) ROW were
    demolished last year, but I understand that the viaduct was in very
    bad shape and probably would have had to be replaced if there was ever
    a plan to use that right-of-way. Just what is being built in the lot
    south of 177th St. where the structure was torn down is not yet clear.
    It is possible that no building will directly block the ROW, that only
    a parking lot will go on that corner of the property. I hope so. But
    the possibility of a new structure there so soon after tearing down
    the old one is mighty slim. The Burke Ave. transfer seems much more
    doable.
    
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NEXT>8949
PREVIOUS>8928
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Pictures
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:20 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 26, 1998 at 21:21:04:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Pictures posted by Joe M on January 26, 1998 at
    19:46:51:
    
    Taking pictures in the subway isn't illegal in itself. Taking pictures
    of people and/or publishing them without a release can get you sued,
    so I'd be careful of that. Pictures of crowds are probably pretty safe
    if no one person really stands out...
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>GAR 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Swiss links
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:24 1998
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Posted by GAR on January 26, 1998 at 21:45:38:

   Here might be some links of interest....[7]A link to Swiss narrow
    gauge & tram pages and some [8]Zurich Rapid Transit tram photos.
    
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NEXT>8934
PREVIOUS>8910
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Closed 33rd St passageway.
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:27 1998
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Posted by Eric B on January 26, 1998 at 22:30:51:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Closed 33rd St passageway. posted by David Pirmann
    on January 26, 1998 at 13:47:50:
    
    Forget it everyone! It didn't come out right anyway. (The margins of
    the screen you post on, and the screen that is actually displayed must
    be different, and this ripped the simple slash and underline diagram
    to shreds.
    Also sorry I wasn't clear enough. This passageway often comes up in
    discussions, and being sealed by concrete wall, many people do not
    know or remember exactly where it is, but I and others would like to
    see it reopened, and I wanted to show exactly where it is, and how it
    could be brought to within the fare-controlled area. I mailed a
    drawing of it to subway@subway org, but then I saw on the "Posting
    files" thread, below that the site host will not post drawings.
    
    
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NEXT>8945
PREVIOUS>8933
POSTER>fAN 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Closed 33rd St passageway.
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:31 1998
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Posted by fAN on January 26, 1998 at 22:35:35:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Closed 33rd St passageway. posted by Eric B on
    January 26, 1998 at 22:30:51:
    
    the passage ran along side of gimbels dept store. it even a exit from
    the store to the subway. the path trains station was just a few feet
    south of the step to the passage
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8887
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Historical R-10s?
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:33 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on January 26, 1998 at 22:42:10:

   In Reply to: [7]Historical R-10s? posted by Lou from Middletown on
    January 26, 1998 at 09:44:58:
    
    Where exactly was the shot? Where did you see this train?
    The R-10s are no longer in passenger service, and all the R-36s are
    painted red. Was this shot of a yard?
    
    
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NEXT>8942
PREVIOUS>8885
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:35 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on January 26, 1998 at 22:46:45:

   In Reply to: [7]NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32 posted by George on January
    25, 1998 at 11:37:13:
    
    Are you sure you're speaking of the R-32? The marker lights from these
    cars were removed when they were refurbished in the late 1980s. The
    redbirds still have marker lights, and they are all set to red. Marker
    lights used to indicate the train's terminus by a series of color
    combinations of red, green, amber, and white.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8925
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map?
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:37 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 27, 1998 at 00:00:58:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Could Someone Post the New Subway Map? posted by
    John Betancourt on January 26, 1998 at 19:02:56:
    
    The Q train is supposed to run on the Broadway (now N and R) line,
    which is indeed colored yellow, but because of the never-ending
    Manhattan Bridge fiasco it's been running on the 6th Avenue (B/D/F)
    line for the last several years (and probably another 5 to come). The
    6th Avenue line has that orange-y color on the map.
    The Q train's terminal is at Brighton Beach in Brooklyn, nowhere near
    Kennedy airport. The closest line to the airport is the A, which has a
    blue symbol; other relatively close ones are the E (also blue) and the
    J/Z (brown). Somewhat farther away is the F at 179th Street, which has
    the 6th Avneue orange-y color.
    
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NEXT>8946
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Steve L 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>S40 Howland Hook Extension
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:38 1998
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Posted by Steve L on January 27, 1998 at 00:39:29:

   I am requesting assistance in obtaining a hand drawn diagram of the
    Howland Hook Terminal and the exact routing of the S40 within the
    Terminal,,including the Western Av Entrance and Bus Stops and
    Surrounding Buildings
    Thank you
    Steve
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>10019
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Marker lights ORANGE (R44/6, R68,A)
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:40 1998
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on January 27, 1998 at 07:54:39:

   In Reply to: [7]Marker lights posted by Walter on January 24, 1998 at
    21:23:40:
    
    Okay I know the red lights on the side of the new cars when the doors
    are open. What are the two orange lights (one above the other) that
    are sometimes on ONE car in the train?
    
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Culver Demolition Captions (was Re: Www.nycsubway.org News - 1/26/1998)
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:43 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 27, 1998 at 08:16:36:

   In Reply to: [8]Www.nycsubway.org News - 1/26/1998 posted by David
    Pirmann - Web Site Host on January 26, 1998 at 10:13:11:
    
    
    Dave ...
    
    Did Jeff Saltzman supply captions with his photos? If not, I recognize
    some of the shots and can supply some. Let me know.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8943
PREVIOUS>8924
POSTER>Steve B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York City Subway Line-by-Line: The Astoria Line
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:46 1998
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Posted by Steve B on January 27, 1998 at 09:12:25:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York City Subway Line-by-Line: The Astoria
    Line posted by Adam on January 26, 1998 at 19:01:34:
    
    No. The N continued to terminate at 57th St. and ran express in
    Manhattan at all times during this time period. It wasn't until 1976
    that the N began running to Forest Hills during weekdays. As an extra
    twist, it ran local in Manhattan during rush hours (from Queens to
    Manhattan AM, to Queens from Manhattan PM). But that's not all: the N
    also ran a supplemental short line local service to Whitehall St
    during rush hours in the peak direction - from Queens AM, to Queens
    PM. In essence, it replaced the EE service, which was discontinued.
    During weekends, N service was the same as in the past: it ran express
    in Manhattan and terminated at 57th St.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8936
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:50 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 27, 1998 at 09:52:55:

   In Reply to: [8]NYCTA tours&Lights on R-32 posted by George on January
    25, 1998 at 11:37:13:
    
    
    Regarding a tour of Grand Central, the ERA offers one yearly and it's
    usually held around this time. You may want to contact them for info -
    their e-mail address is ERA@Juno.com, IIRC.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8941
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York City Subway Line-by-Line: The Astoria Line
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:52 1998
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Posted by Ed Sachs on January 27, 1998 at 10:02:28:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York City Subway Line-by-Line: The Astoria
    Line posted by Steve B on January 26, 1998 at 14:28:10:
    
    > Actually, the RR began running to Astoria with the opening of the
    > Chrystie St. connection in November of 1967 ...
    
    Well, but, from 1949 to 1961 the 4th Ave. Local (RR after the R27/R30s
    were introduced on the route) ran to Astoria.
    
    Service history:
    1949 - 1955 (opening of connection from 60th St. Tunnel to IND Queens
    Blvd line):
    4th Ave. local (later RR) 24 hrs.
    Brighton local (later QT) Mon-Sat approx 6am - 7pm (other times,
    Brighton local terminated at 57th St).
    1955 - 1961:
    4th Ave. local (later RR) 24 hrs
    Brighton express Mon-Fri rush hours (may have run mid-day for the
    first couple of years, but in late 50s mid-day Brighton expresses
    terminated at 57th St and ran local in Brooklyn).
    1961-1967 (opening of Chrystie St connection):
    Brighton local (QB,QT) 24 hrs. (actully, until 1962, Saturday service
    was Q Brighton express).
    West End express (T) Mon-Fri rush hours. (West End exp. didn't run
    mid-day weekdays, TT West End Local ran Coney Island-Chamber St. via
    Tunnel).
    Starting 1967:
    RR 24 hrs.
    
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NEXT>8976
PREVIOUS>8693
POSTER>sdc-foti 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New NYC Subway Map
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:54 1998
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Posted by sdc-foti on January 27, 1998 at 10:38:11:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: New NYC Subway Map posted by Hank Eisenstein on
    January 24, 1998 at 15:04:58:
    
    The ppl I talked to say that "The Map" Is the replacement.
    my heart is sinking,
    Foti-
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8934
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Closed 33rd St passageway.
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:56 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 27, 1998 at 11:38:13:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Closed 33rd St passageway. posted by fAN on
    January 26, 1998 at 22:35:35:
    
    I used to use it to get to PennRR trains to go to Philadelphia from
    the Bway-Brighton Line (pre-11/26/67). My thinking is that it was
    popular before the Big Change because half of Brooklyn had no other
    convenient connection to Penn Station other than backtracking at Times
    Sq. After the Big Change (1967) fewer people needed a connection from
    the 34-Bway-6th Ave. station to Penn Station since most trains could
    easily connect to the 8th Ave at W 4th St. When I used to use it it
    was not that popular; it was long and narrow, but easier than going
    outside. Probably it got emptier and emptier and scarier and scarier,
    and then it was closed off. While it might be a convenience, it would
    probably be avoided by many. I know I stopped using it as soon as I
    could go from DeKalb Ave. to W 4 St. to get the 8th Avenue train.
    
    Making it a paid area connection is also not as useful since the 8th
    Avenue now connects to the 7th Avenue at 42 St, so a 6th Avenue
    connection is not that important. The Broadway connects to the 7th
    Avenue at 42 St also, so, again, having the extra connection is not so
    important. And I'm the first guy to say that some important long
    connections are great -- like 14th St. at 6/7 Avenue, 42 at 7/8
    Avenue, 51/53-Lexington. I would even want them to connect
    Atlantic/Pacific (2,3,4,5,Q,D,N,R,B,M) and the Fulton (G) and
    Lafayette (A/C) stations. But 34th St. (1,2,3,D,F,Q,B,N,R) is low down
    on my personal list of imperatives.
    
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NEXT>8963
PREVIOUS>8938
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: S40 Howland Hook Extension
DATE>Jan 30 14:25:59 1998
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on January 27, 1998 at 11:47:32:

   In Reply to: [8]S40 Howland Hook Extension posted by Steve L on
    January 27, 1998 at 00:39:29:
    
    Try contacting the Port Authority. As for the s40, It runs down
    Richmond Terrace to Western Ave, then down Western Ave to the entrance
    to Howland Hook.
    
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NEXT>8948
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Michael S. Buglak 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
DATE>Jan 30 14:26:04 1998
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Posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 27, 1998 at 14:02:26:

   Having followed SEPTA for almost 15 years, one thing that has always
    struck me about it is the seemingly high number of vehicles in service
    with scrambled, blank, or just plain incorrect destination signs. In
    the past week, I've seen an inbound R6 train from Norristown
    displaying "R7 Trenton" signs, a Route 33(?) Neoplan bus at 19th &
    Arch Streets with "20 Brookwood"(Route 20 operates in NE Philly, far
    from Route 33), several Ikaruses (Ikari?) with blank signs, & assorted
    other examples.
    
    Somehow, on my visits to NYC, it seems that NYCT vehicles are much
    more consistent in displaying correct signs. Does NYCT have any policy
    on correct signage on buses (& subway trains) regarding a vehicle
    operating with incorrect signs (like an uptown M15 with "M15 South
    Ferry")?
    
    As always, any info much appreciated!
    Michael S. Buglak :)
    
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NEXT>8953
PREVIOUS>8947
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
DATE>Jan 30 14:26:06 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 27, 1998 at 14:27:04:

   In Reply to: [8]Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Michael S.
    Buglak on January 27, 1998 at 14:02:26:
    
    From my experience, the destination signs on buses and subways are
    accurate practically all of the time.
    One thing I've noticed on subways is that while the first car is
    always displaying the correct route sign, often other cars in the
    train are not.
    On buses, I've seen twice the electronic sign in the front saying
    "Emergency Call 911" and I asked what was wrong on the bus but the
    driver said that it was just jammed. Not a very good feeling to get on
    a bus with that on the front!
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8931
POSTER>Norma 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Pictures
DATE>Jan 30 14:26:08 1998
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Posted by Norma on January 27, 1998 at 14:30:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Pictures posted by David Pirmann on January 26,
    1998 at 21:21:04:
    
    When I was in college I did a term paper on the architecture of subway
    stations and proceeded to take pictures of old stations (I thought
    taking my own photos would show effort). I was stopped by two NYC
    police officers at 33rd and Lexington who wanted to confiscate my
    camera, and said taking photos in stations was illegal. Their reasons
    were that I could be planning to put a bomb somewhere, and also the
    flash can temporarily blind someone and they can fall onto the tracks.
    
    I had to prove to these officers that I was a student doing a paper (I
    showed them notes, ID, etc...), and then they said I had to have
    proper documentation(???) from the City that allowed me to take
    pictures underground. This was in 1994, so maybe things have changed.
    
    My professor, a NYC history buff, found this so amusing and couldn't
    stop laughing, but said he'd heard stories like that before.
    
    So, good luck and I'd make some phone calls before snapping away.
    
    
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NEXT>8951
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Zack 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>QueensBorough Plaza
DATE>Jan 30 14:26:11 1998
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Posted by Zack on January 27, 1998 at 15:14:29:

   what does the layout of Qbp look like. i saw pictures of it on the
    line- by-line and it made me even more confused. does anyone have a
    map of what this looks like
    
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NEXT>8952
PREVIOUS>8950
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: QueensBorough Plaza
DATE>Jan 30 14:26:13 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on January 27, 1998 at 15:51:31:

   In Reply to: [8]QueensBorough Plaza posted by Zack on January 27, 1998
    at 15:14:29:
    
    Track maps for the entire system are available on this most excellent
    site! See the [9]Small Queens map for the area around Queensboro
    Plaza.
    
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NEXT>8980
PREVIOUS>8951
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
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SUBJECT>Re: QueensBorough Plaza
DATE>Jan 30 14:26:17 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 27, 1998 at 16:21:52:

   In Reply to: [7]QueensBorough Plaza posted by Zack on January 27, 1998
    at 15:14:29:
    
    A short answer is:
    
    The two northbound (eastbound) trains share the upper platform (BMT on
    the left, IRT on the right).
    
    The two Manhattan-bound trains share the lower platform, just beneath
    it, inbound BMT under outbound BMT, inbound IRT under outbound IRT.
    
    There is one x-shaped switch track on the outbound section just after
    the platform, I believe. And that's it. Kind of like 7th Avenue on the
    D and E trains in Manhattan, just here both trains on the platform
    travel the same way.
    
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NEXT>8956
PREVIOUS>8948
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
DATE>Jan 30 14:26:23 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 27, 1998 at 17:27:48:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Adam on
    January 27, 1998 at 14:27:04:
    
    From the Baltimore Perspective, I see many MTA vehicles (all with dot
    signs) that have missing, incorrect or just plain weird signs. Buses
    run with missing headsigns, rear route number displays that are blank
    or show a number different than what's on the front, and on front
    either blank, or (my favorite) "memory chip #2". One bus ran for
    several weeks with a perfect 19 SINAI HOSPITAL on the front - in
    reverse! LRV's show up (in trains) with different sign on each car.
    Example: 1st car - HUNT VALLEY; 2nd car - CROMWELL; 3rd car - NORTH
    AVE. I suspect that the electronics are just too fragile for the
    "chain gang" service that transit vehicles work under.
    
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NEXT>8968
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>DB 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA)
DATE>Jan 30 14:26:26 1998
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Posted by DB on January 27, 1998 at 19:00:17:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Dan Lawrence
    on January 27, 1998 at 17:27:48:
    
    Back to SEPTA -
    
    I have seen a bus headsign say Training Bus/Take Next Bus/
    
    and the side sign says "30 Amtrack Sta"
    
    And then their was that one that almost hit me crossing the street (At
    one of Phila's "Real" crosswalks with the hand and guy) reading =
    SEPTA - - TAKE NEXT BUS... not a malfuntion, but somewhat humorous. I
    was ok but I think the woman behind me was about to have a heart
    attack...
    
    At 13th street after eating at the new Hard Rock, the green dot sign
    in the MFSE platform read "Green lines are running on or close to
    schedule... Diversion light should be flashing... some delays
    reported..." maybe you could figure that one out!
    
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NEXT>8966
PREVIOUS>8899
POSTER>DB 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
DATE>Jan 30 14:26:28 1998
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Posted by DB on January 27, 1998 at 19:02:44:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
    posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 26, 1998 at 11:38:44:
    
    And people still get lost (not me of course............)
    
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NEXT>8964
PREVIOUS>8953
POSTER>Michael Lyons 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
DATE>Jan 30 14:26:30 1998
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Posted by Michael Lyons on January 27, 1998 at 20:32:29:

   In Reply to: [8]Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Michael S.
    Buglak on January 27, 1998 at 14:02:26:
    
    I am sure that every transit agency has a policy in regards to correct
    signs being displayed on transit vehicles. The problem lies in its
    implementation.
    
    In my short time as a Subway Conductor I have spent time on the
    terminal platforms changing signs on trains. If a train needs a sign
    change the Train Dispatcher will announce over the station PA system
    the track that the train is on and the class and/or destination that
    needs to be diplayed. For example: a train may come up with a class
    diplayed
    
    6 LEX AVE LOCAL
    PELHAM EXP
    and need to be changed to:
    
    6 LEX AVE LOCAL
    PELHAM LOCAL
    before going back downtown.
    
    Other times it may be that the south terminal displayed need to be
    changed.
    For example, on the Pelham Line all trains that stay in service after
    midnight need there destination sign to display
    
    125th STREET Not BROOKLYN
    LEXINGTON AVE BRIDGE
    
    On MTA New York City Subway trains, the best place's to check for the
    class and destination is on the head end car and the two cars at the
    Condutors position. The Train Operator is held responsible for the 3
    set's of signs at his position and the Conductor is held responsible
    for the 4 set's of signs at his position.
    
    
    
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NEXT>8960
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (MBTA)
DATE>Jan 30 14:26:32 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 27, 1998 at 21:52:42:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA) posted by DB
    on January 27, 1998 at 19:00:17:
    
    I live close to the route of the #39 bus in Boston, and often see
    buses bound for Copley Square that say Forest Hills, and vice-versa. I
    wonder if this is a problem on any other lines in Boston...
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8900
POSTER>Droo 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Another Ride Home Redux (or, Steve???)
DATE>Jan 30 14:26:35 1998
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Posted by Droo on January 27, 1998 at 22:46:25:

   In Reply to: [7]Another Ride Home Redux (or, Steve???) posted by Sammy
    on January 24, 1998 at 08:08:55:
    
    Just out of curiousity... what charges do you plan on filing against
    the vagrant? Being ill on a public transportation system is not, to my
    knowledge, illegal. I don't think it would be possible to charge him
    with any wrongdoing, and he would have grounds to charge the MTA with
    false imprisonment. And you'd congratulate the MTA for acting
    appropriately...?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Fernando Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (NYC-Buses)
DATE>Jan 30 14:26:37 1998
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Posted by Fernando Perez on January 28, 1998 at 01:00:09:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (MBTA) posted by
    Timothy Speer on January 27, 1998 at 21:52:42:
    
    There is a memo that states no bus must leave the depot if the signs
    are not operating. And cardboard signs with the route number on it are
    a definite no-no. However, when there is a pressing need to put a bus
    in service, occasionally it is put in service with a bad sign, but
    generally only for a "tripper", or a bus that will only do one or two
    trips like in the rush-hour and then it is brought back to the depot
    for repairs.
    With the new fareboxes, the sign is automatically changed when you
    enter your destination code on the box, but only with the 8000 series
    and up. This discourages incorrect signs because then the wrong data
    will be in the box thus affecting proper collection of data, etc. Also
    in prevents drivers from putting a bad sign because that information
    will be analyzed by management later on and it gives away what the
    operator did.
    These policies are in effect because of the Grumman years when many
    old buses were unretired and the DC buses did not have correct signage
    and carboard was used to display the route number and it gave a very
    bad impression of things.
    
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NEXT>8961
PREVIOUS>8957
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (MBTA)
DATE>Jan 30 14:26:39 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 28, 1998 at 01:02:05:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (MBTA) posted by
    Timothy Speer on January 27, 1998 at 21:52:42:
    
    See!!! What did I say - it's the electronics that can't take the
    pounding on a bus or the "sweep it out and get it on the street"
    operations mentality of the transit industry. If our PC's constatly
    give us problems (and we tend to "baby them) then what will a
    computerized dot sign do? Other than giving us all gag lines to
    enliven our transit lives, I believe electronic signs are a poor
    service successor to the traditional roller destination signs.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8960
POSTER>Jeremy Whiteman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (MBTA)
DATE>Jan 30 14:26:41 1998
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Posted by Jeremy Whiteman on January 28, 1998 at 06:42:39:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (MBTA) posted by Dan
    Lawrence on January 28, 1998 at 01:02:05:
    
    I think many of the problems(if the sign is working fine, just running
    the wrong destination) might lie with the driver just not changing it.
    AFAIK- When the driver is reversing at one of their terminals, they
    are supposed to enter "fare codes"(I think that's what they are
    called) for each trip(I think to determine passenger count).
    Forgetting to change the sign as well might just be an accident. I
    always see busses on the #57 heading towards Watertown with a
    57-Kennmore sign(maybe drivers aren't as concerned because there is
    only one bus on the line and they assume passengers know which way
    each destination is?), I have also seen the #39 issues, as well as #92
    and #93's with the wrong destination sign showing. You should see the
    problems that arise when a 92 or 93 rolls through Haymarket heading
    downtown during evening rush hour with one of their outbound signs
    showing.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8930
POSTER>Dan Schwartz 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Second avenue and the Bronx
DATE>Jan 30 14:26:45 1998
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Posted by Dan Schwartz on January 28, 1998 at 06:56:58:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Second avenue and the Bronx posted by Larry
    Littlefield on January 27, 1998 at 19:48:56:
    
    I certainly care about the future of the Bronx. But I doubt that
    "holding hostage" the plans needed by other boroughs is really to our
    advantage. If there is not enough money to fund everything at once,
    then everything would be killed.
    
    Might it not be better to wait until the 63rd St. connection, and the
    rerouting of some Metro-North trains to Penn Station, is up and
    running, and *then* point out "Hey, isn't it foolish for all these
    trains to run non-stop from New Rochelle to Manhattan?" It might seem
    more sensible then, as an incremental improvement on what already
    existed, than it does now. Certainly I'd love to see it happen.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8946
POSTER>Steve L 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: S40 Howland Hook Extension
DATE>Jan 30 14:26:48 1998
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Posted by Steve L on January 28, 1998 at 08:59:45:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: S40 Howland Hook Extension posted by Hank
    Eisenstein on January 27, 1998 at 11:47:32:
    
    
    Would anyone know a DIRECT tele number
    
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NEXT>8965
PREVIOUS>8956
POSTER>Dan Schwartz 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
DATE>Jan 30 14:26:54 1998
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Posted by Dan Schwartz on January 28, 1998 at 09:04:51:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Michael
    Lyons on January 27, 1998 at 20:32:29:
    
    Last week I was on a midday #6 local from the Bronx to Manhattan. When
    I boarded it at Castle Hill Ave., the sign on the front had "6" in a
    diamond with "Express" under it. I was surprised at this, because I
    didn't think the express was still running, as indeed it was not. So I
    guess the front signs aren't always accurate, but I'll admit this was
    an exception.
    
    More commonly, as Michael Lyons points out, it will be signs on the
    sides of cars that are incorrect. Most commonly, the "class" sign
    (interesting term) will indicate the right letter or number, but the
    wrong particular sign when several are available, such as "(diamond) 5
    Lexington Av Express/Bronx Thru Express" on a midday train that makes
    all stops in the Bronx. If most of the signs on a train are right, but
    a few are wrong, then probably no announcement will be made when it
    gets to the other terminal, and the incorrect signs will never be
    changed, right? Perhaps all the signs should be checked at each
    terminal, even if no change needs to be made in the "correct" signs.
    When the signs are right, it helps give the general impression that
    the system is being well run, and when they aren't, it gives the
    opposite impression.
    
    And why is it necessary to sometimes "lie" on signs about where a
    train comes from? For example, all the AM #5 Thru Expresses from 241st
    St. run with signs saying "Dyre Ave." as the northern terminal. I
    guess they will go there when they head back uptown, but couldn't the
    signs be changed when they reach Flatbush (or Utica) Ave.? Do they not
    remain there long enough to change the signs?
    
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NEXT>8967
PREVIOUS>8964
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
DATE>Jan 30 14:26:57 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 28, 1998 at 09:44:06:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Dan Lawrence
    on January 27, 1998 at 17:27:48:
    
    I've seen that, too. The most commonly used destination sign in
    Baltimore seems to be a piece of paper with the route and destination
    written on it with Magic Marker, Scotch-taped to the front window.
    
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NEXT>8969
PREVIOUS>8955
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
DATE>Jan 30 14:26:59 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 28, 1998 at 10:00:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
    posted by DB on January 27, 1998 at 19:02:44:
    
    And don't forget Erie-Torresdale - only one street but it changes
    names at Kensington Ave.
    
    Also, why is North Philadelphia the stop at Lehigh Ave (because it
    connects to the North Phila PRR (now Amtrak) station)? It would be
    more appropriatre, but not historically accurate, to call it Lehigh
    Ave.
    
    I believe the double names related also to the streets which carried
    connecting surface transit. These streets were generally one-way pairs
    and therefore had transit lines on each (e.g. Tasker-Morris has the
    Route 29 westbound on Tasker, eastbound on Morris).
    
    And just when you get into that numbered street pattern on the Market
    St el, someone throws Millbourne into the mix (actually, a small town
    within Upper Darby).
    
    Also, you could win many bar bets with 30th-31st!
    
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NEXT>8970
PREVIOUS>8965
POSTER>Andrew Byler 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
DATE>Jan 30 14:27:02 1998
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Posted by Andrew Byler on January 28, 1998 at 10:12:45:

   In Reply to: [8]Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Michael S.
    Buglak on January 27, 1998 at 14:02:26:
    
    I have to agree with you that Septa signs on the railroads are
    somewhat confusing, and can occasionally be inaccurate. But what you
    saw may have been correct. A number of trains are now through-routed
    between different lines during normal operations. For example,
    currently, most R2 Warminster trains are paired with R1 Airport
    trains, and R2 Wilmington trains are paired with R6 Norristown runs.
    Periodically, other trains from various lines run through during the
    day - for example, one rush hour R7 Chesnut Hill East train originates
    on the R8 Chesnut Hill West three blocks away. In these cases, the
    destination is displayed, irregardless of origination on a different
    line.
    
    Eventually, I suppose they'll sort this all out, and new electronic
    signs are being put in place on the Silverliner IV's which should
    help.
    
    Andy Byler
    
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NEXT>8975
PREVIOUS>8954
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA)
DATE>Jan 30 14:27:04 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 28, 1998 at 10:17:35:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA) posted by DB
    on January 27, 1998 at 19:00:17:
    
    I was always a fan of the old curtain type signs and was somewhat sad
    to see them go in favor of the dot types. The argument that was always
    given was that the electronic signs afforded more flexibility, could
    be revised easier, etc etc. I keep seeing the same problems noted in
    other postings here in Phila. Most of it is driver laziness - they
    punch in what they believe to be the correct code but never check the
    readout, even though it displays on the number-key panel. Maintenance
    is also lacking.
    
    The most interesting signs I have seen on SEPTA buses are the "test
    pattern", which runs through a series of symbols, and one that read
    something along the lines of #$%^*@*, which reminded me of what you
    see in the comics when characters are using foul language. Maybe the
    bus is trying to tell us something. $*%#) potholes?
    
    I have also witnessed a good number of "Police" displays on the signs.
    This occurred once when I was on a bus - a police car pulled the bus
    over, and the officer ran onto the bus looking for trouble. As I was
    the only passenger on the bus, I was a little fearful what was going
    to happen. Obviously, I was unaware that the "police" sign had come up
    on the display. The operator explained to the cop that he had not
    called for police and the whole affair was straightened out. I later
    asked the operator how this could have happened. He explained that
    there is a hidden trip switch below the dash which operators can use
    to activate the police sign, which also sends a message over the radio
    to the dispatcher for police assist. Apparently, when some bumps in
    the road are encountered, the switch can be accidentally tripped.
    
    I often wonder about putting fragile electronic instruments on transit
    vehicles. Bring back sign curtains!
    
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NEXT>8977
PREVIOUS>8966
POSTER>Andrew Byler 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
DATE>Jan 30 14:27:05 1998
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Posted by Andrew Byler on January 28, 1998 at 10:25:50:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
    posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 26, 1998 at 11:38:44:
    
    Carl,
    
    You forgot one double entrance station - North Philadelphia, which is
    located north of Lehigh Ave. to more conveniently serve the North
    Philadelphia Amtrak and Septa North Broad train stations. But it has
    always been called North Philadelphia.
    
    Andy Byler
    
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NEXT>8971
PREVIOUS>8967
POSTER>Michael S. Buglak 
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SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
DATE>Jan 30 14:27:07 1998
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Posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 28, 1998 at 10:37:09:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Andrew Byler
    on January 28, 1998 at 10:12:45:
    
    Yes, there are several SEPTA RRD trains that are through-routed like
    Andrew describes. My favorite is train #4646, which originates in
    Trenton & terminates in Norristown. SEPTA uses the 4000-series train
    numbers for these trips. (The 2nd digit in a 4000-series train number
    is the number of the line on which the train terminates.)
    
    The train I referred to in my post was train #6613, which is the
    morning "Schyulkill Valley Flyer" departing Norristown (Elm St.) @
    7:00a & terminating @ 30th Street @ 7:46a, BTW.
    
    Michael S. Buglak
    
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NEXT>8972
PREVIOUS>8970
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
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SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
DATE>Jan 30 14:27:11 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 28, 1998 at 10:46:12:

   In Reply to: [8]Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Michael S.
    Buglak on January 27, 1998 at 14:02:26:
    
    NYCT has gotten very good about correct sign on subways as well as
    buses. In the 1970 and 1980's many trains operated with "S SPECIAL"
    when they were borrowed from the line that they were usually assigned
    to. These were mostly R-40, 40M and R-42 classes. It was very common
    to see a D train with borrowed cars that did not have D line signs
    during this time. Usually they would be R-42's from the RR, AA/B or
    the BMT Eastern division.
    
    In other cases signs were being changed by vandals or pranksters.
    
    On the buses it's rare today to find one that has an incorrect sign. I
    think you'd sooner find one without a malfunctioning sign and that's
    pretty rare also. It was a problem when buses had the curtain signs.
    One common problem was when buses were transferred to different
    depots. When buses were transferred the fareboxes were removed as well
    as the destination sign . The depot receiving the buses would then put
    in their fareboxes and destination signs, but many times a bus would
    "escape" into service before it received it's new sign. I think some
    depots were better about this than others. For example I can remember
    plenty of buses from the old MABSTOA Coliseum and West Farms depots
    operating without signs, but I was extremely rare to find a bus from
    Flushing (now Casey Stengel) without a sign. In fact NYCTA depots
    would also change the side signs (near the exit door), whereas MABSTOA
    usually did not do this.
    
    All of this solved itself when Grumman 870 and Jimmy RTS coaches
    started arriving with dot-matrix signs.
    
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NEXT>8979
PREVIOUS>8971
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
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SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
DATE>Jan 30 14:27:13 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 28, 1998 at 10:59:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Dan Schwartz
    on January 28, 1998 at 09:04:51:
    
    In response to your question about signs that "lie" about their
    origin. I think it's done so they don't have to do it at the other
    terminal It happens now on the C line. During the rush hours you will
    sometimes see southbound C train that started it's run at Bedford Park
    Blvd, Bronx displaying "Euclid Ave, Brooklyn" as it's south terminal
    and "145 Street, Manhattan" as it's north terminal. In this case both
    are correct since it would no longer be rush hour when the train made
    it's return (northbound) trip and would only go as far as 145th
    Street.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>John B. Bredin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (CTA)
DATE>Jan 30 14:27:16 1998
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Posted by John B. Bredin on January 28, 1998 at 11:13:13:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (MBTA) posted by
    Jeremy Whiteman on January 28, 1998 at 06:42:39:
    
    I agree. Here in Chicago, the main sign problem on buses -- for both
    roller signs and digital displays -- is that the right route is posted
    but the terminal wasn't changed when the bus turned around to go the
    other way. Mind you, this is a rare problem, but when the sign is
    wrong, its almost always that and it makes little difference whether
    it's old roller or new LED.
    
    A more unique problem arises for buses serving Navy Pier. As well as
    showing on the usual destination sign that the terminus is Navy Pier,
    there is a square wooden board mounted with pegs over the radiator
    with "SERVES NAVY PIER" and the outline of an old ship's wheel. This
    sign stays on the bus whether it is headed to or from the Pier, and
    that is intentional. More problematic, it is sometimes accidentally
    left on when the bus is put on another route running from the same
    garage, but which does not serve the Pier.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8905
POSTER>Steve B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Marker lights
DATE>Jan 30 14:27:18 1998
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Posted by Steve B on January 28, 1998 at 12:07:52:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Marker lights posted by David Pirmann on January
    26, 1998 at 12:29:15:
    
    Does anyone have any information on IRT marker lights?
    
    
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NEXT>8986
PREVIOUS>8968
POSTER>Michael S. Buglak 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA)
DATE>Jan 30 14:27:22 1998
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Posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 28, 1998 at 12:56:00:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA) posted by Bobw
    on January 28, 1998 at 10:17:35:
    
    The "HELP GET POLICE" message was especially a problem on SEPTA's RTS
    busesbefore SEPTA retired them in 1997. These buses were delivered
    with roll signs in 1980, & SEPTA retrofitted them with electronic
    signs in 1987. The control unit used was the type with (4) thumbwheels
    to set the sign & a push button. There was no display readout; the
    operator had to exit the bus to see what the sign was displaying. The
    "POLICE" message had a habit of going on when the bus hit a bad
    pothole & the driver would not have a clue what the sign was reading
    at the time! Also, the only way to clear the police message on a SEPTA
    RTS was to shut down the bus (not just the sign).
    
    I remember a couple of years ago, when SEPTA combined Route 42 with
    the Wycombe branch of Route 21, how many Route 42 drivers displayed
    "21 WYCOMBE" since there was no "42 WYCOMBE" sign programmed, & many
    riders waited forever for a Route 42 before they caught on to what
    SEPTA was doing. (Why would SEPTA bother programming new signs for a
    bus they would scrap in a couple of months, anyway?)
    
    The other thing I remember is that in 1987, SEPTA changed Routes D & E
    to 21 & 65 & issued notices saying that "some buses will continue to
    display the Route D & E designations for about a month". It turned out
    to be more like over a year!
    
    From all the postings to this thread, it seems like I must have really
    struck a nerve! Thanks for all the insights!
    
    Michael S. Buglak :)
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8944
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New NYC Subway Map
DATE>Jan 31 23:09:27 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on January 28, 1998 at 13:13:52:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: New NYC Subway Map posted by sdc-foti on January
    27, 1998 at 10:38:11:
    
    If this is true, everyone might want to download the presently
    available electronic MTA map from their website for future reference.
    
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NEXT>9080
PREVIOUS>8969
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
DATE>Jan 31 23:09:30 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 28, 1998 at 13:35:24:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
    posted by Andrew Byler on January 28, 1998 at 10:25:50:
    
    True; I didn't even want to get to the stations named after "grande
    lignes" railroad stations, such as:
    
    Logan (at Lindley Avenue and the Reading RR),
    
    North Philadelphia (at Lehigh Ave. at the Reading RR and Glenwood
    Avenue at the Pennsylvania RR),
    
    Fern Rock (at 10th St. & Nedro Avenue at the railroad storage yard and
    the Reading RR),
    
    all on the Broad St Line. To tell the truth, I don't remember if
    Millbourne on the MFSE is a town or a street name.
    
    BTW, the Logan Reading station is completely closed, for those not in
    Brotherlylovesville but wanted to know.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>
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SUBJECT>Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El (But you can get to
DATE>Jan 31 23:09:32 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: Oh, you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El
    posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 28, 1998 at 13:35:24:
    
    Millbourne is a VERY small borough (population less than 900) tucked
    in between Upper Darby Twp. in Delaware County, PA & the City Of
    Philadelphia. It's probably one of the smallest municipalites anywhere
    to have its own rapid transit stop!
    
    Michael S. Buglak :)
    
    
    
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NEXT>8982
PREVIOUS>8972
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
DATE>Jan 31 23:09:33 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 28, 1998 at 13:57:40:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Carl M.
    Rabbin on January 28, 1998 at 09:44:06:
    
    Absolutely correct. The latest "gag" among the bus operators is that
    standard equipment now includes a large, black marker.
    
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NEXT>8981
PREVIOUS>8952
POSTER>Adam 
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SUBJECT>Re: QueensBorough Plaza
DATE>Jan 31 23:09:35 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 28, 1998 at 15:35:47:

   In Reply to: [8]QueensBorough Plaza posted by Zack on January 27, 1998
    at 15:14:29:
    
    Did you happen to notice the photo of QbP where there is a train in
    the station on both levels?
    They are on the tracks on one side of the station. There is one island
    platform and there is one track on the other side of the platform. The
    upper and lower levels are pretty much identical to each other in
    platform and track layout.
    If people think it would be a good idea, I could get some pictures of
    the inside of the station, especially on the lower level where they
    still have the frosted glass windows, before the huge $10 million
    renovation begins and the station is changed forever. Let me know if
    this is a good idea. I would be glad to do so.
    
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NEXT>9001
PREVIOUS>8980
POSTER>Jeffrey Davis 
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SUBJECT>Re: QueensBorough Plaza
DATE>Jan 31 23:09:37 1998
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Posted by Jeffrey Davis on January 28, 1998 at 15:45:45:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: QueensBorough Plaza posted by Adam on January 28,
    1998 at 15:35:47:
    
    >huge $10 million renovation begins and the station is changed
    forever
    
    ??? Wow. What do you know about that? Can you share a summary?
    Starting dates? Are they gonna trim off some of that excess iron? Give
    Queens Plaza back some airspace?
    
    Thanks,
    JD.
    
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NEXT>8983
PREVIOUS>8979
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
DATE>Jan 31 23:09:39 1998
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on January 28, 1998 at 16:38:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Wayne
    Johnson on January 28, 1998 at 10:46:12:
    
    Speaking of destination signs, On almost all NYCT buses, the sign
    computer is tied into the farebox computer. If you board a bus that
    has an incorrect destination sign, ask the driver about it before you
    insert your metrocard or recieve a transfer. The sign is indicative of
    the direction and route the farebox think's it's on.
    Additionally, I just saw one of the New Flyer D60's with an LED front
    destination sign, instead of the usual flip-dots...
    -Hank
    
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NEXT>8984
PREVIOUS>8982
POSTER>Michael Lyons 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
DATE>Jan 31 23:09:42 1998
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Posted by Michael Lyons on January 28, 1998 at 16:59:36:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Dan Schwartz
    on January 28, 1998 at 09:04:51:
    
    As far as the AM 5 Thru Exp. are concerned, they actually start from
    the 239th St yard and there first stop is 238th St. The same in the PM
    they terminat at 238th St and then go to the 239th St yard. In the AM
    the first trip back North terminats at Dyre Av and then most go
    between Dyre and Bowling Green. I think the little white "lie" is
    justified. I'm still very new at this and could be wrong, if anyone
    knows for sure if "any" AM 5 Thru Exp. start at 241st and White Plains
    Road please speak up.
    
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NEXT>8985
PREVIOUS>8983
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
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SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
DATE>Jan 31 23:09:45 1998
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on January 28, 1998 at 17:05:32:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Wayne
    Johnson on January 28, 1998 at 10:59:22:
    
    I think the biggest problem with this isn't a C that terminates at
    145st displaying 'C Conccourse/8th Ave/Fulton', but the 2 and 3 trains
    that ar being short turned at 96st with the signs reading anything
    from 149st/Grand Concourse to 241st/White Plains Road to 148st/Lenox
    Terminal, all on the SAME TRAIN!! The first car may say 96st, but the
    second car would say any of the other destinations. Although as a
    chronic nitpicker, the signs with the wrong lines on them bug me a
    bit.
    -Hank
    
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NEXT>8987
PREVIOUS>8984
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
DATE>Jan 31 23:09:47 1998
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on January 28, 1998 at 17:08:36:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Michael
    Lyons on January 28, 1998 at 16:59:36:
    
    When the constuction and delays on the 2 started, the 5 to 238st
    started to go all the way to 241st. Weather they opriginate there or
    not...
    -Hank
    
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NEXT>8992
PREVIOUS>8975
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA)
DATE>Jan 31 23:09:49 1998
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on January 28, 1998 at 17:18:34:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA) posted by
    Michael S. Buglak on January 28, 1998 at 12:56:00:
    
    What I miss about the curtain signs is that the destination signs now
    only seem to say 's59 Hylan Blvd, or even better, just 's59 (or s54)
    Eltingville' Eltingville is a big place! Turns out these buses
    terminate at richmond ave and Hylan Blvd. by 'Eltingville', they could
    be terminating anywhere. I always thought of eltingville as the area
    near the Eltingville train station. or s78 Tottenville. The 78 isn't
    the only bus to tottenville. Whatever happened to 'via', as in s78 via
    Hylan Blvd (in blue) Tottenville (in Red)
    
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NEXT>8988
PREVIOUS>8985
POSTER>Steve B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
DATE>Jan 31 23:09:51 1998
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Posted by Steve B on January 28, 1998 at 17:41:58:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Dan Schwartz
    on January 28, 1998 at 09:04:51:
    
    Unless I'm mistaken, the motorman is supposed to verify that the
    correct information is displayed on the bulkhead signs. I remember
    riding a C train out of Bedford Park back in Oct. 1988, when the R-10s
    were still running on this line. The bulkhead route sign was set to HH
    (I believe Rockaway shuttles were designated as H trains back then).
    The motorman walked into the car and lifted the hinged lid behind the
    roll signs to check the settings. I casually asked, "HH?", whereupon
    the motorman changed the sign to read "C".
    
    I also remember seeing D trains of R-27/30 units labeled "DD" on
    several occasions around 1979-80. I found it odd that this class of
    cars would have DD signs at all, since to my knowledge there never was
    a DD route. They must have salvaged some of the roller curtains from
    R1/9s (which originally had every single and double letter code from A
    to F) as they were being scrapped. But why DD and no D? That's New
    York for you...
    
    By the way, did you know that the train used in the chase sequence in
    The French Connection is incorrectly labeled as an N? Most of that
    sequence was filmed under the West End line, and the cars used in the
    film (R-42s 4572 and 4573 had the film equipment) normally ran on the
    N line and had no B signs. The front end of the train appears very
    briefly a couple of times during the movie, so it's easy to miss.
    Brian Cudahy pointed all of this out in the first edition of Under the
    Sidewalks of New York.
    
    
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NEXT>8996
PREVIOUS>8987
POSTER>Steve B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
DATE>Jan 31 23:09:53 1998
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Posted by Steve B on January 28, 1998 at 17:42:26:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Dan Schwartz
    on January 28, 1998 at 09:04:51:
    
    Unless I'm mistaken, the motorman is supposed to verify that the
    correct information is displayed on the bulkhead signs. I remember
    riding a C train out of Bedford Park back in Oct. 1988, when the R-10s
    were still running on this line. The bulkhead route sign was set to HH
    (I believe Rockaway shuttles were designated as H trains back then).
    The motorman walked into the car and lifted the hinged lid behind the
    roll signs to check the settings. I casually asked, "HH?", whereupon
    the motorman changed the sign to read "C".
    
    I also remember seeing D trains of R-27/30 units labeled "DD" on
    several occasions around 1979-80. I found it odd that this class of
    cars would have DD signs at all, since to my knowledge there never was
    a DD route. They must have salvaged some of the roller curtains from
    R1/9s (which originally had every single and double letter code from A
    to F) as they were being scrapped. But why DD and no D? That's New
    York for you...
    
    By the way, did you know that the train used in the chase sequence in
    The French Connection is incorrectly labeled as an N? Most of that
    sequence was filmed under the West End line, and the cars used in the
    film (R-42s 4572 and 4573 had the film equipment) normally ran on the
    N line and had no B signs. The front end of the train appears very
    briefly a couple of times during the movie, so it's easy to miss.
    Brian Cudahy pointed all of this out in the first edition of Under the
    Sidewalks of New York.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Alan Follett 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (Bay Area)
DATE>Jan 31 23:09:55 1998
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Posted by Alan Follett on January 28, 1998 at 18:07:18:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Carl M.
    Rabbin on January 28, 1998 at 09:44:06:
    
    On the San Francisco Muni, destination sign problems are confined
    mostly to the Boeing-Vertol cars. Each car has six roller signs (one
    at each end, and one on each side of each half of the articulated car,
    supposedly linked electronically to each other). It is rare indeed to
    see a car with all six signs in agreement, correct, and illuminated. I
    believe that this is usually a mechanical problem--one of the lesser
    ones of the nororiously unreliable Boeings--more than a case of
    operator negligence. (This is what happens when you buy your trolleys
    from an aircraft firm, grumble grumble!) The new Bredas have many
    fewer problems, perhaps only because (a) they're nearly new, and (b)
    they only have four signs per car--less chance for something to go
    wrong.
    
    As for BART, things are much more primitive than you might imagine,
    considering that the system is supposed to be the flower of circa-1970
    high tech. As originally delivered the cars didn't have destination
    signs at all; the idea, I suppose, was that the electronic signs on
    the platforms would obviate the need for signs on the trains. Hah!
    BART quickly began putting printed cardboard signs in the cab
    windows--a signage technology which might have been considered just a
    tad retrogressive in 1920. Some of the newer cars now do have
    electronic signs, but they're still far from universal.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Phlashless in Phila 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA)/ Voice Announcements
DATE>Jan 31 23:09:58 1998
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Posted by Phlashless in Phila on January 28, 1998 at 18:11:25:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA) posted by DB
    on January 27, 1998 at 19:00:17:
    
    Are the voice announcements
    
    ("At your service... This is SEPTA route #.... to the Riverfront via
    Chestnut...")
    
    controlled on the same readout?
    
    I think the test pattern would mentioned below would be
    Learning Bus --> @#%$^@# --> HELP! CALL POLICE
    
    Is it a crime in any other city to drive on the sidewalks???
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas-NJT
DATE>Jan 31 23:10:06 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 28, 1998 at 19:26:05:

   In Reply to: [8]Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Michael S.
    Buglak on January 27, 1998 at 14:02:26:
    
    NJt is bad about wrong signs. I board everyday and see trains on the
    NECL showing "Dover" or "Bay Head" or some m & E station- all on the
    same train! ( They use luminator type LED Signs). I have asked crew
    members about this and they do not care. At stations they just get out
    and announce "trenton Local" or the "shore train is 5 minutes behind
    us".
    
    I have e-mailed NJT and they don't seem to care either.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8986
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA)
DATE>Jan 31 23:10:14 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 28, 1998 at 20:57:31:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas (SEPTA) posted by
    Michael S. Buglak on January 28, 1998 at 12:56:00:
    
    The same thing is still occurring on Routes 124 and 125. The Center
    City terminal was moved to 13th & Market in October, yet I have just
    recently noticed this change on the signs on the buses. Most continue
    to carry "Penn Center Philadelphia".
    
    The other annoying aspect of these signs is the return to the hyphen,
    rather than the ampersand, for an intersection destination. A
    "15-Spruce" display next to a Route 27 or 32 line number implies
    something different to a non-Philadelphian. Making it "15 & Spruce"
    would be much clearer. I recall, back in the days of curtain signs
    (sigh!), a college classmate told me that the Route 2 went to Center
    City from the Penn Campus. I told him it did not, but he assured me
    that the front sign on the bus he took said "2-Chestnut via
    Independence Mall". Obviously, the route number half of the curtain
    was missing since the destination of what was actually a Route 42 bus
    was 2nd and Chestnut. This person mistook it for "route 2" which went
    to "Chestnut via I.M.".
    
    What I dislike about the dot signs the most is their legibility at
    night and in rainy weather. NJT buses have defroster grilles in the
    signs for the rain, but SEPTA's do not. The larger signs on the Ikarus
    buses are helpful at night, but I've noticed that quite often the
    backlights are burned out. !
    
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NEXT>9003
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Phil Kane 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Modeling the NYCTA - 1950s
DATE>Jan 31 23:10:16 1998
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Posted by Phil Kane on January 28, 1998 at 21:45:31:

   I am interested in locating scale models of the 1940/1950-era NYCTA
    carsof my youth -- the Standards, Low-Vs, R-1s, etc.
    
    Does anyone have any info if thesre models are available or if they
    ever existed?
    
    Are there are newsgroups/BBSs devoted to modeling the NYC subways?
    
    "You can take the kid out of the subway but you can never take the out
    of the kid" A subway nut of 50 years' standing.
    
    Phil Kane
    San Francisco, CA
    
    e-mail replies preferred to:
    
    philkane @ commlawcenter.com
    
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NEXT>8998
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>New Subway Maps
DATE>Jan 31 23:10:19 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 28, 1998 at 22:22:53:

   The "New" Subway Maps are currently being installed in every car in
    the fleet. They will, of course, depict the new service changes taking
    effect on March 1. They should be available at the token booths soon.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination End Signs (NYCT)
DATE>Jan 31 23:10:21 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 28, 1998 at 22:30:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Michael S.
    Buglak on January 27, 1998 at 14:02:26:
    
    The NYCT has a rule, not a policy, about the End Destination Signage.
    It must be correct. In addition, the End Destination Signs between
    cars must also be correct. An incorrect end sign can and does result
    in confusion which will lead to service delays, hence, a car with a
    defective or inoperative sign which is displaying incorrect
    information will be removed from service when practical.
    
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NEXT>8997
PREVIOUS>8988
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
DATE>Jan 31 23:10:24 1998
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Posted by Eric B on January 28, 1998 at 22:46:11:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Hank
    Eisenstein on January 28, 1998 at 16:38:24:
    
    I always wondered why buses didn't use LED signs. Where are these
    running?
    
    
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NEXT>8999
PREVIOUS>8996
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
DATE>Jan 31 23:10:28 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 28, 1998 at 22:51:26:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Eric B on
    January 28, 1998 at 22:46:11:
    
    The New Flyer artics are assigned to Kingsbridge depot. The buses
    operate on routes: Bx1, Bx2 & Bx55. 40 more of these coaches will be
    delivered soon, most will go to Gun HIll depot in the Bronx.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>8994
POSTER>Dan Schwartz 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Subway Maps
DATE>Jan 31 23:10:30 1998
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Posted by Dan Schwartz on January 28, 1998 at 22:53:28:

   In Reply to: [8]New Subway Maps posted by Steve on January 28, 1998 at
    22:22:53:
    
    > The "New" Subway Maps are currently being installed in every car in
    the > fleet. They will, of course, depict the new service changes
    taking effect > on March 1. They should be available at the token
    > booths soon.
    
    Please clarify: are these maps "The Map" now being distributed at
    token booths, i.e. the revised MTA regional map (subway side), or will
    there after all be a new version of the NYCT map that has been used
    for a number of years?
    
    The former shows changes (the 63rd St. shuttle) scheduled to start on
    Feb. 22, but not the (rumored)switch of the B and C northern
    terminals. Is that going to start on March 1?
    
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NEXT>9000
PREVIOUS>8997
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas
DATE>Jan 31 23:10:33 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 28, 1998 at 23:01:12:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination (Sign) Dilemmas posted by Steve B on
    January 28, 1998 at 17:42:26:
    
    You're right about the R-27/30's on the D line - I remember this well.
    Also during the early 1980's when all of the R-38's were assigned to
    the AA & B line the side signs (non-color coded) did not have a B
    sign. They also operated with "BB 6 Avenue Local". On the ends they
    had a color coded sign with the correct "B" in the black background.
    The destination sign had been removed from the head/rear end leaving
    only the letter.
    
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