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Old SubTalk Archive Posts 7000-7999

NEXT>7058
PREVIOUS>6896
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
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SUBJECT>Re: Interview for a school project
DATE>Dec 28 18:08:31 1997
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on December 15, 1997 at 11:46:53:

   In Reply to: [6]Interview for a school project posted by David L. on
    December 13, 1997 at 14:27:14:
    
    Pardon me for putting in my two cents on behalf of your teacher. As I
    understand the terminology, your report is supposed to involve an
    interview. Don't shortchange yourself by substituting an "E-Mail
    interview". Ten or so years ago my daughter had such an assignment,
    and I put her in touch with an elderly associate of mine who had
    served under General George Patton. She still talks about how
    fascinating the interview was! The advice to visit the Court St.
    Museum site in Brooklyn should result in meeting a Docent (volunteer)
    who will be willing to talk your ear off, if you ask him/her.
    
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NEXT>7040
PREVIOUS>6987
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
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SUBJECT>Re: Third Rail Electrical Properties
DATE>Dec 28 18:08:33 1997
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on December 15, 1997 at 11:55:10:

   In Reply to: [6]Third Rail Electrical Properties posted by Julio Perez
    on December 15, 1997 at 08:26:20:
    
    DC traction can operate with an "earth ground", but this can lead to
    corrosion and other problems with other metal in the area, such as
    sewer and water lines. Consequently, one of the rails is used for
    ground. The other is used for the signal detection system. With modern
    multiplexing and related technology, this does not prevent additional
    uses of the rails for communication purposes.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
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SUBJECT>Electricity
DATE>Dec 28 18:08:35 1997
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 15, 1997 at 12:01:34:

   Does anyone know what voltage is used on any of the electrically
    powered lines (including LRV, commuter lines, subway, etc...) in NYC,
    Philadelphia, or Boston? All I know for sure is that NYC Subways use
    600V DC.
    
    Also, will the new NYC cars utilize regenerative braking? Or will they
    dissipate the energy as heat as is done on current rolling stock?
    
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NEXT>7115
PREVIOUS>6933
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
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SUBJECT>Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL
DATE>Dec 28 18:08:37 1997
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 15, 1997 at 12:02:36:

   In Reply to: [6]In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL posted by Serafin Jr on
    December 14, 1997 at 22:06:41:
    
    When the Bronx part of the 3rd Avenue El was to be torn down, the
    promise was made that a new "3rd Avenue" line would be built at the NY
    Central tracks, even using them or a parallel new construction. It
    would be part of the 2nd Avenue Subway. Unfortunately, it is a part of
    the 2nd Avenue Subway, just an un realized dream.
    
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NEXT>7015
PREVIOUS>6937
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
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SUBJECT>Re: Visitor's Pass?
DATE>Dec 28 18:08:39 1997
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 15, 1997 at 12:18:42:

   In Reply to: [7]Visitor's Pass? posted by Rich on December 14, 1997 at
    22:41:40:
    
    Plans have been announced for a day pass on the subway, allowing
    unlimited rides for $4. There will be $17 weekly and $63 monthly
    equivalents. Unfortunately, no start date has yet been announced.
    
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NEXT>7013
PREVIOUS>6995
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
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SUBJECT>Re: Free Ride
DATE>Dec 28 18:08:40 1997
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 15, 1997 at 12:24:22:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C. on December 15, 1997
    at 10:35:30:
    
    I'm not going to get into a discussion of honesty or ethics, but note
    that the NY subway (unlike its counterparts in many other cities) does
    not require riders to have any proof of payment. In other words, the
    only way farebeaters can be caught is if they are seen jumping the
    turnstiles. There are no fare inspectors on the trains or platforms
    and no card insertion required on exit.
    
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NEXT>7010
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Michael S. Buglak 
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SUBJECT>Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles)
DATE>Dec 28 18:08:42 1997
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Posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 15, 1997 at 12:49:49:

   In Reply to: [7]Electricity posted by Timothy Speer on December 15,
    1997 at 12:01:34:
    
    All of the SEPTA subway-elevated lines, LRVs (Both city & ex-Red Arrow
    lines) & trackless trolleys in the Philadelphia area use 600v DC
    power. I can't recall offhand what voltage SEPTA's commuter rail uses,
    but it would be same as what Amtrak uses on the NE Corridor as SEPTA
    operates over considerable Amtrak trackage..Michael S. Buglak,
    Collegeville, PA
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
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SUBJECT>Bus service on Staten Island.
DATE>Dec 28 18:08:44 1997
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 15, 1997 at 12:58:38:

   In Reply to: [6]Re: Ideas on how to improve NYCT bus service on Staten
    Island. posted by si2000 on December 15, 1997 at 08:56:06:
    
    When did the lines on Staten Island get re-numbered? I remember the
    S7, S2, etc. and have in my collection a sample of the Red/blue front
    sign with those lines.
    
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NEXT>7025
PREVIOUS>6981
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
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SUBJECT>Re: Subway train speed
DATE>Dec 28 18:08:45 1997
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 15, 1997 at 13:15:07:

   In Reply to: [6]Re: Subway train speed posted by Tim Speer on December
    14, 1997 at 15:31:58:
    
    If the Q was going 87, I am sure the measuring unit was kph, not mph.
    That is about 55mph. The R44s, when going through acceptance testing,
    ran along the LIRR through Forest Hills, etc. They hit at least in the
    70s (mph). I think there was a story of when they sent the R44s over
    to the LIRR, they had to account for the different voltages through
    the 3d rails. When they took them back, they didn't make the
    appropriate changes and all heck broke loose with the ventilation
    system. Same sort of thing happened when the R32s ran over the
    NYCentral tracks. (Actually I am certain of the story's occurrence w/
    the R32s, not so certain with the R44s.)
    
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NEXT>7052
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Julio Perez 
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SUBJECT>Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost)
DATE>Dec 28 18:08:47 1997
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Posted by Julio Perez on December 15, 1997 at 13:16:13:

   NOTE: The following is a message reposted from the thread originally
    titled "98 calender??". I have reposted it here for fear it may not be
    answered because it might be presumed as an old message.
    
    I read the above mentioned thread on the 1998 Subway Calendar, and
    presume y'all are referring to the one available via
    http://www.netstuff.com. I
    attempted to ask the following questions--among others--to their staff
    about three weeks ago, and am still awaiting a reply. Hopefully,
    someone here can answer them for me:
    
    1. Does the 1998 subway calendar contain any photos of trains along
    the Flushing (#7) line?
    
    2. Does it contain any photos of R-32, R-33, R-36, and/or R-40
    equipment? I know it has R-9s (or close relatives) on the cover,
    presumably photographed from the Smith-9 Streets approach.
    
    If you were NOT discussing Netstuff's calendar, please tell me if the
    one you were discussing contains any of the information
    mentioned above, and how can I obtain it.
    
    Thanks to all of you in advance!
    
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NEXT>7012
PREVIOUS>7006
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
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SUBJECT>Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles)
DATE>Dec 28 18:08:49 1997
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 15, 1997 at 13:36:16:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles) posted by Michael
    S. Buglak on December 15, 1997 at 12:49:49:
    
    Hmmm... rumour has it that Septa is 11k 25hz
    
    But the equipment should be able to run at 60hz
    
    As should NJT's stuff.
    
    But I think the NEC is all 25 below Penn in NY.
    
    If it is, anyone else want to looby Amtrak for a GG-1 75th aniveresery
    (sp?) fantrip???
    
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NEXT>7033
PREVIOUS>6983
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
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SUBJECT>Re: Seattle Metro plans... what?
DATE>Dec 28 18:08:51 1997
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on December 15, 1997 at 13:38:10:

   In Reply to: [6]Seattle Metro plans... what? posted by Nathan on
    December 15, 1997 at 02:32:55:
    
    My Seattle sources tell me this is a long standing plan which will
    utilize existing track along the shore of Puget Sound, essentially.
    Climbing the hills will be left to walking and busses. This could
    relieve some of the bus load on 99 and I-5, but would require a forced
    transfer to the light rail system for those used to taking the bus all
    the way to the "subway" downtown. They did this to us here in
    Sacramento ten years ago, and we eventually "forgot" the 30 min. all
    bus ride, and tolerated the 50 min ride with transfer to light rail.
    
    
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NEXT>7020
PREVIOUS>7010
POSTER>David Pirmann 
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SUBJECT>Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles)
DATE>Dec 28 18:08:52 1997
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Posted by David Pirmann on December 15, 1997 at 13:53:17:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles) posted by Philip
    Nasadowski on December 15, 1997 at 13:36:16:
    
    Having never in my memory seen an operating GG-1, I'd *love* to see
    NJT's GG-1 (4877, kept at Hoboken Yard) moving again, with the
    Mountain View and the other PRR car that is kept at the Whippany RR
    Museum in NJ, but I was under the impression that a lot of the engine
    had been stripped due to environmental concerns. I'd guess the other
    surviving GG-1's would be in the same case. Are there any still in
    running condition?
    
    -Dave
    
    
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NEXT>7014
PREVIOUS>7005
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
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SUBJECT>Re: Free Ride
DATE>Dec 28 18:08:54 1997
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on December 15, 1997 at 14:02:29:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C. on December 15, 1997
    at 10:35:30:
    
    That's a pretty glib rationalization, but lets reduce the puzzle to
    it's basics: Does your activity result in less revenue to the MTA? If
    so, it is stealing, ipso facto.
    
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NEXT>7019
PREVIOUS>7013
POSTER>Chris C. 
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SUBJECT>Re: Free Ride
DATE>Dec 28 18:08:56 1997
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Posted by Chris C. on December 15, 1997 at 14:23:16:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Mike K on December 13, 1997 at
    08:53:05:
    
    I do resent the suggestion that it is dishonist to utilize the
    transfer policy endorsed by the Governor and the Transit Authority. As
    to discounts disappering; what discounts? If I am not alowed to take
    advantage of the free transfer policy, then I'm not recieving any
    discount! It seems that the Governor wants to go on television
    bragging about free transfers, but secretly he doesn't want anybody to
    take advantage of them. No wonder there's a surpluss! The TA can't
    have it both ways, either we get a discount or we don't. They can't
    expect to make a policy that allows passengers to double up on rides
    and then go crying about it when they do! If the TA decided to cancel
    the various perks of the metrocard and I hadn't bothered to take
    advantage of them in the first place then I would be loosing nothing.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7004
POSTER>Joe Rappaport 
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SUBJECT>Re: Visitor's Pass?
DATE>Dec 28 18:08:57 1997
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Posted by Joe Rappaport on December 15, 1997 at 14:31:42:

   In Reply to: [8]Visitor's Pass? posted by Rich on December 14, 1997 at
    22:41:40:
    
    The daily pass, along with the monthly and weekly pass, will be
    available sometime next summer.
    
    -- Joe Rappaport, Straphangers Campaign
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>6894
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
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SUBJECT>Re: The New Third Avenue Line and more!
DATE>Dec 28 18:08:59 1997
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 15, 1997 at 14:46:25:

   In Reply to: [7]The New Third Avenue Line and more! posted by
    Christopher Rivera on December 13, 1997 at 10:22:51:
    
    Unfortunately, ideas are $1.44 per gross (marked down from a dime a
    dozen). There's lots of good ideas: extend the 4 down Utica Avenue,
    use the freight lines across Brooklyn, extend the F from 179 to 261
    St, build a Cross-Bronx line, a 2nd Ave. line, trains to the airports,
    put the J train underground.
    
    The expense, the political will, and the determination of true
    usefulness of each of these potential expenses are the hard parts.
    Remember, the last major new construction that produced new service in
    NYC was the 6th Ave. line in 1940; everything since has been minor
    connections between existing track, sorry to say. The last really new
    large service addition was the Rockaway line converion of the LIRR in
    1956.
    
    If I had a couple zillion dollars and a dictatorship, we'd being doing
    great, but....
    
    Seriously... If you major in college in transportation or civil
    engineering, and push hard in the world of transit, you may head up
    the MTA some day. Even if you don't make it to the top, you could get
    what you wanted done, maybe. I sometimes wish I had done that...
    
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NEXT>7024
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>EricB 
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SUBJECT>East River Crossings study (pt3)
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:01 1997
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Posted by EricB on December 15, 1997 at 15:01:01:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: East River Crossings study (pt2) posted by Eric B
    on December 14, 1997 at 17:13:16:
    
    Cont'd from Yesterday
    
    With the Q in Rutgers, the additional bridge capacity is given to the
    N, even in partial closures. In fact, in MBA5-N and MBA8-N, the N runs
    over the AB tracks to 168th St, even while the B still does.
    Meanwhile, a W runs from Astoria to Whitehall. MBA5 included a "Revise
    D/Q/N"plan for before the Rutgers and 63rd St connections opened,that
    sends the N to 21st St, and the Q to Astoria via tunnel. Also, the D
    would become express and the Q local in Brooklyn, but none of the
    final plans included the restoration of D-Brighton exp.
    TSM-S and MBA8-S have the V terminating at 34th St. Since the D does
    also, there is no place for any uptown B service, and nothing
    apparently runs to 168th. (the plans do not show any B/C switch.)
    The M is moved around. In MBA2-N, TSM-N&S, and MBA8-N&S, it still goes
    to Bay Pkwy. In MBA2-S&O, TSM-O, MBA5-S,and MBA8-0,it goes to 95th St.
    And in MBA5-N&O, it is returned to the Brighton--local to CI, and the
    D is still local.
    BTW:
    MBA-5 is the option that was finally selected by the study.
    
    I was hoping the Rutgers connection would be used to bring some 8th Av
    service to the southern div. One thing they could have done, is send
    the V to WTC or Euclid, and the C to the Brighton. Or, how about
    routing the N to 168th up 8th Av!
    So if the plan is approved, we will see this connection sometime in
    the future.
    
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NEXT>7036
PREVIOUS>6993
POSTER>Eric B 
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SUBJECT>Re: East River Crossings study (pt2)
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:02 1997
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Posted by Eric B on December 15, 1997 at 15:03:33:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: East River Crossings study (pt2) posted by Chris
    C. on December 15, 1997 at 09:55:35:
    
    I forgot to mention that the Bleecker Transfer is part of the MBA5
    plan that will be implemented
    
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NEXT>7022
PREVIOUS>7014
POSTER>Chris C 
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SUBJECT>Re: Free Ride
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:04 1997
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Posted by Chris C on December 15, 1997 at 15:21:27:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Gary Jacobi on December 15,
    1997 at 14:02:29:
    
    Often times I let a train pass and wait for the one behind it or I
    stay on the local in plain view of the express. It is my choice to
    utilize the system in this manner even though I am not using it at the
    optimum efficiency intended by the TA, consequently impacting their
    resources and thereby their revenu. The TA wouldn't dream of giving me
    a ticket for riding the local over the express; a trend I might add,
    which is not endorsed by the Governor, as is the free bus transfer! If
    someone gets on the subway in Riverdale and rides all the way to
    Howard Beach for $1.50 are they stealing from the rest of us who
    travel only a few stops for the same price???? If the TA looses money
    on these long distance travelers they don't call it stealing because
    it is the policy of the TA to let riders go as far as they want for
    $1.50 just as it is policy to let riders take advantage of the various
    perks of the metrocard. The TA counts on the notion that not everyone
    will take advantage of the system to it's fullest.
    If everyone who got on the subway rode all day long the TA would
    suffer and eventually go broke. In the end the TA would prefer that
    people spent a lot of money on tokens and metrocards and then never
    got on the subway at all. But the TA understands that they have an
    obligation to live up to their end of the bargan.
    
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NEXT>7172
PREVIOUS>7012
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles)
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:06 1997
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 15, 1997 at 16:28:18:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles) posted by David
    Pirmann on December 15, 1997 at 13:53:17:
    
    The "environmental concern" was the fact they had PCBs in their
    transformers. Yeah, PCBs are dangerous, but the fact is they are still
    found in transformers all over the place. As a matter of fact, there
    are a few on my campus. Metro North refilled their M-2s a few years
    back (AFIK). I'm sure you could do the same with a GG-1, as I
    understand it's quite a common practice anyway (anyone know
    better???). For what it's worth, I've heard that the AEM-7, or was it
    the E-60, uses something toxic in there too.
    
    Most GG-1s were sent to museums, etc drained anyway. I'd be more
    worried about if they were refilled or cleaned, and with what.
    Besides, I think there were a few that were restored to oreigional
    condition in the 70's, and these should still be in working shape.
    Actually, all of them out there should still be in working shape, but
    would most likely need a lot of TLC and the above transformers
    checked.
    
    I'm thinking of writting NJT / Amtrak, or Emailling them about this. I
    think it would be cool, and I'm sure the cash could be raised or
    granted or whatever...
    
    
    
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NEXT>7023
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Receive My E-Mail? (To David Pirmann)
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:08 1997
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Posted by Timothy on December 15, 1997 at 17:39:52:

   Did you receive the e-mail I sent you about a week ago, concerning
    your
    photo of the Polo Grounds Shuttle 155th St. Station? You haven't sent
    me
    a reply, yet. If you didn't receive my e-mail, I'll try to resend it.
    Hope
    to hear from you.
    
    Thanks,
    Timothy
    
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NEXT>7034
PREVIOUS>7019
POSTER>Steve 
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SUBJECT>Re: Free Ride
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:10 1997
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Posted by Steve on December 15, 1997 at 18:24:05:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C. on December 15, 1997
    at 10:35:30:
    
    Let's cut to the chase. Is it possible - of course it is. Is it legal,
    likely not. Before metro-card, I'm quite sure people were selling bus
    transfers - that doesn't make what you are doing right. It is
    definitely not the intent of the metro-card free transfer system. You
    may get away with it for years and even never get caught. The point is
    are you that small and petty that you need to get over for a buck and
    a half?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7021
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Receive My E-Mail? (To David Pirmann)
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:12 1997
EMAILNOTICES>no
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Posted by David Pirmann on December 15, 1997 at 19:00:53:

   In Reply to: [8]Receive My E-Mail? (To David Pirmann) posted by
    Timothy on December 15, 1997 at 17:39:52:
    
    Yup, I got it but you'd be better off posting it here-- where you can
    get answers from a much wider range of minds...
    
    -Dave
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7017
POSTER>Chritopher Rivera 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: East River Crossings study (pt3)
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:13 1997
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Posted by Chritopher Rivera on December 15, 1997 at 19:25:18:

   In Reply to: [8]East River Crossings study (pt3) posted by EricB on
    December 15, 1997 at 15:01:01:
    
    I cant understand this could you make this easy to read
    Christopher Rivera
    
    
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NEXT>7059
PREVIOUS>7008
POSTER>Cool Knight 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subway train speed
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:15 1997
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Posted by Cool Knight on December 15, 1997 at 19:40:16:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Subway train speed posted by Nathan on December
    15, 1997 at 02:25:51:
    
    It is true. Do you know that lonk straght way between Kings Hwy and
    NewKirk Ave for the Q on the Express you can high speed. Try it you
    will might get a driver who likes to be on time and will use the
    Stright a way to an advantage.
    
    
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NEXT>7027
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Light rail to JFK
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:16 1997
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on December 15, 1997 at 19:44:00:

   I just received a copy of the July issue of LRT News, which is
    published by the Transportation Research Board of the National
    Research Council. It's feature article is on the JFK proposal. I am a
    lousy typist, so I will try to get it scanned tomorrow. In the
    interim, the main points are; No human operator, service every four
    minutes from Howard Beach and from Parsons-Archer, providing 2 min
    headways at the terminal loop, and (here's the bombshell)
    compatability with LIRR cars! As we Subway geeks know, this insures
    compatibility with regular NYC subway cars as well! Perhaps Governor
    Pataki doesn't know this. Let's keep it our little secret.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7026
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Light rail to JFK
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:18 1997
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 15, 1997 at 20:05:28:

   In Reply to: [8]Light rail to JFK posted by Gary Jacobi on December
    15, 1997 at 19:44:00:
    
    Here's another good one:
    
    Poke your head into the cab of a M-1 some day. See the controller???
    
    It's labeled (clocwise from Emerg)
    
    Emergency
    
    Max Brake
    
    (range)
    
    Min Brake
    
    Coast
    
    P1
    
    P2
    
    P3
    
    P4
    
    ATC
    
    Guess what ATC does...
    
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NEXT>7035
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>John 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Abandoned Station(Bowtow)
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:20 1997
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Posted by John on December 15, 1997 at 21:36:11:

   Does anyone know who to get to the abandoned Bowtow station in the
    Bronx?
    I think it's open to the public and is located near Baychester Ave.
    
    On the LIRR before Jamaica, there is what seems to be a abandoned
    nearly demolished station. This is on the side tracks, heading towards
    Jamaica.
    Anyone seen this station or know what this station is called?
    
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NEXT>7041
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:21 1997
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Posted by Ed Sachs on December 15, 1997 at 22:21:23:

   In Reply to: [8]Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by BJ
    on December 15, 1997 at 21:02:21:
    
    Chicago Metra commuter trains already go as fast as 70mph in some
    stretches. That's the speed of the Metra train which unfortunately
    hit a school bus in Fox River Grove about 2 years ago, which led to a
    call
    by the town to lower the trains speed, even though train speed was not
    
    a factor in the tragedy in which seven high school students were
    killed.
    
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NEXT>7049
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Does anyone knows when "F" express service in Brooklyn will ever be
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:23 1997
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   If anyone know on when "F" express service in Brooklyn will be
    restored, please post it.
    
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NEXT>7133
PREVIOUS>6929
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: East River Crossings study
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:25 1997
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Posted by Andrew Huie on December 15, 1997 at 22:41:22:

   In Reply to: [8]East River Crossings study posted by Eric B on
    December 14, 1997 at 16:23:59:
    
    So that seems to pretty much settles it - whether or not the Manhattan
    bridge remains open, there will never be a replacement for it.
    Instead, if it closes completely, they plan to 'massage' the remaining
    services in an effort to compensate. In a case like that, I would hate
    to be one of the people who depended on the MB for their commute.
    Also, why are they proposing to extend E service to the Rockaways,
    cutting the A back to Euclid, and the C to Chambers? Again I'm missing
    the point regarding a rather seemingly unnecessary change, other than
    it gives E riders from Jamaica better access to lower Manhattan (but
    there is no need to make the A a local in Bklyn in such a case).
    Didn't the E used to be express in Bklyn and the A local up until the
    mid-70's?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Michael Adler 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>TransitAds/Track Maps request...
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:27 1997
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Posted by Michael Adler on December 15, 1997 at 23:15:55:

   Hi all,
    
    After everything settle down at the USPS (X-mas mail volume and family
    get together in Colorado) I will try to set an hour or 2 on Sundays to
    update TransitAds (free ads relating to mass-transit stuff)
    
    [8]TransitAds
    
    I know I'm really behind in updating track maps like Baltimore LRT
    extensions, etc... I will gather up what you guys sent track maps to
    me and I will update them and make any new track maps (Hint: sent me
    *more* track maps )
    
    If you have track maps (doesn't matter if it's old or current as I do
    historial and current track maps here on Dave's site) please e-mail me
    thru
    m-adler@nycsubway.org or m-adler@ix.netcom.com either way, please make
    sure you put in Transit-related SUBJECT as I delete *TOO MUCH* junk
    e-mail!!!
    
    Thanks,
    Michael Adler
    Letter Carrier serving Wheat Ridge & Mountain View, Colo.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7011
POSTER>Zack 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Seattle Metro plans... what?
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:28 1997
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Posted by Zack on December 15, 1997 at 23:21:46:

   In Reply to: [8]Seattle Metro plans... what? posted by Nathan on
    December 15, 1997 at 02:32:55:
    
    1) there going to extend the bus tunnel (the monorail may take over
    for the north seattle light rail i hope)
    
    
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NEXT>7053
PREVIOUS>7022
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Free Ride
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:30 1997
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Posted by Joe M on December 15, 1997 at 23:27:01:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C. on December 15, 1997
    at 14:23:16:
    
    
    A transfer is good for a continous trip by the person to who it was
    issued.
    
    Not a free for all
    
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NEXT>7047
PREVIOUS>7028
POSTER>Chuck 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Abandoned Station(Bowtow)
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:31 1997
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Posted by Chuck on December 16, 1997 at 00:01:41:

   In Reply to: [7]Abandoned Station(Bowtow) posted by John on December
    15, 1997 at 21:36:11:
    
    The LIRR station was Union Hall Street. I think it closed in the
    mid-70's and was usually served by trains from the Hempstead branch.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7018
POSTER>How about this? 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: East River Crossings study (pt2)
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:33 1997
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Posted by How about this? on December 16, 1997 at 00:06:08:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: East River Crossings study (pt2) posted by Eric B
    on December 15, 1997 at 15:03:33:
    
    Note: This does not consider funding but:
    
    Build the Rutgers tunnel connection and move the bridge tracks to the
    center with two tracks reconnected to Broadway but with a possible
    crossover to Chrystie St. for alternate routing. Grand St. could be a
    southern terminal for Six Avenue Lines keeping its connect with the
    bridge for alternate routing should need come (regular would probably
    be impractical unless flying junctions can be constructed although I
    doubt there is enough tunnel length for that). This way there are
    three inlets from Manhattan into the BMT Lines (Dekalk Avenue). They
    can move the subways off the bridge but I guarantee they still be
    fixing the bridge forever
    
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NEXT>7070
PREVIOUS>6917
POSTER>George 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R142 & R144
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:35 1997
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Posted by George on December 16, 1997 at 00:15:11:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: R142 & R144 posted by Steve on December 14, 1997
    at 17:02:43:
    
    When the R32's and R38's leave, I stop using the system. As a child I
    was
    fascinated by luster stainless steel and blue doors (R32's). It sure
    beat looking at dusty black exteriors which I was amazed to find out
    was actually drab olive green. I know everyone loves BMT Standards and
    R1-9, but I always found them hideous but still showed more character
    then anything produced within the last 20 years. I guess things must
    chance but at least when they came out, it was like a breath of fresh
    air. Even the so called lemons, R-40 slants, show some consideration
    to design. THese new trains look like elongated AMC Pacers
    automobiles. I love the NYC Subway system but man what plain looking
    rolling stock.
    
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NEXT>7055
PREVIOUS>6915
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: B & C trains are switching terminals north of 145th St in the Spring
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:37 1997
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   In Reply to: [7]Re: B & C trains are switching terminals north of
    145th St in the Spring 1998. posted by Christopher Rivera on December
    13, 1997 at 16:02:40:
    
    What the bloody hell makes the passengers so special that they claim
    they should get newer cars and the West End passengers shouldn't. Hell
    at least
    you have express service on the elevated and open cut regions. Suffer
    lke the rest of us.
    
    
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NEXT>7081
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Nathan 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Sacramento LRT (was Re: Seattle Metro plans... what?)
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:38 1997
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Posted by Nathan on December 16, 1997 at 01:47:04:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Seattle Metro plans... what? posted by Gary Jacobi
    on December 15, 1997 at 13:38:10:
    
    Is the time penalty for LRT so severe?? On Sacramento's LRT, is taking
    the
    Light Rail faster than driving? That is the way it should be, I hope.
    What is the daily Ridership on the Sacramento system??
    
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NEXT>7080
PREVIOUS>7001
POSTER>Nathan 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Third Rail Electrical Properties
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:40 1997
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Posted by Nathan on December 16, 1997 at 01:50:25:

   In Reply to: [7]Third Rail Electrical Properties posted by Julio Perez
    on December 15, 1997 at 08:26:20:
    
    In London there is a central rail to complete the circuit- it is
    raised on
    insulators in the center of the track. I do believe this is the only
    system to use this type of 3rd and 4th rail, the Glasgow Underground
    might possibly do this as well but I forget.
    
    I do know of some systems that use a thrid and fourth rail for AC
    propulsion, saves putting a rectifier on the train itself.
    
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NEXT>7048
PREVIOUS>7029
POSTER>Nathan 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:42 1997
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Posted by Nathan on December 16, 1997 at 01:58:15:

   In Reply to: [8]Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by BJ
    on December 15, 1997 at 21:02:21:
    
    Elevated running at high speeds is safe- any potential problems would
    lie in large imperfections of the rail itself. My little pet system
    (sorry, stress the word little-one liner system) operates trains at
    70mph
    on it's elevated structure and there has only been one derailment, and
    the train didn;t fall off the elevated structure. (The trains are
    computer controlled and the computers aren,t as speed chicken as some
    of the operators are. OF course, on NYC there might be more accidents
    as we are comparing a system with 20+ miles of line to one with a
    gizillion. (NYC)
    
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NEXT>7043
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Subways In Pop/Rock Music
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:44 1997
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Posted by Timothy on December 16, 1997 at 03:09:59:

   Can anyone post a list of pop, and rock and roll songs (including
    heavy
    metal), that are about, or that mention subways in the title or
    lyrics?
    Thanks.
    
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NEXT>7045
PREVIOUS>7042
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:46 1997
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 16, 1997 at 06:10:12:

   In Reply to: [8]Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Timothy on
    December 16, 1997 at 03:09:59:
    
    I don't have time right now to make a list,but I do remember a song
    called "Subway to Your Heart" from about 10 - 12 years ago. The video
    for this song featured the singer pretending to drive an "A" train of
    R-44's out on Rockaway somewhere.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>6996
POSTER>Sammy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 2nd Ave on F line
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:48 1997
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Posted by Sammy on December 16, 1997 at 07:05:54:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: 2nd Ave on F line posted by Charles Fiori on
    December 15, 1997 at 10:47:00:
    
    Far from the lack of ridership, the station is very much alive at
    nights and on weekends. The area is vibrant with clubs (the Bank,
    Mercury Lounge, Vain, Sapphire), is a conduit to the East Village and
    the Lower East Side (ever growing in terms of restaurants, bars, clubs
    and boutiques), etc. There are also "competing" lines nearby - the J,
    M, L, 6, etc.
    
    The answer really is that there is plenty of traffic.
    
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NEXT>7046
PREVIOUS>7043
POSTER>G-wiz 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:49 1997
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Posted by G-wiz on December 16, 1997 at 07:08:52:

   In Reply to: [8]Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Timothy on
    December 16, 1997 at 03:09:59:
    
    Here's part of a Beastie Boys tune from their album 'Pauls Boutique',
    Its part of the last track on that album called 'Mike on the Mic '.
    Here are the lyrics -
    
    
    It's 4:00 a.m. I've got the Dr. Hfuhruhurr Ale
    I've got nothing to lose so I'm pissin' on the third rail.
    Groggy eyed and fried I'm headed for the station, D-Train ride Coney
    Island vacation
    Dedicated to the boofers in the back of the 1 train
    They'll be kicking out windows high on cocaine
    Jump the turnstyle I lost my last token
    Riding between the cars pissing smoking
    Also finger popping
    Two bums fucking I seen them rocking
    Head for the last car fluorescent light blackout
    Policeman told my homeboy put that crack out You
    know you light up when the lights go down
    Read the New York Post Fulton St. downtown
    Same faces every day but you don't know their names
    Party people going places on the D-Train.
    French trench coat wing tip going to work
    Pulling a train like Captain Kirk
    Pick pocket gangsters paying their debts
    Caught a bullet in the lung from Bernie Goetz
    Overworked and underpaid staring at the floor
    Prostitutes spandex caught in the ding dong doors
    Stuck between the stations it seems like an eternity
    Sweating like sardines in a flophouse fraternity
    $50.00 fine for disturbing the peace
    The neck tortoise, the Lees creased.
    Hot cup of coffee and the donuts are Dunkin
    Friday night and Jamaica Queens funkin
    Elevated platform never gonna conform
    Riding over the diner where I always get my toast warm
    Bust into the conductor's booth and busted out rhymes
    Over the loud speaker about the hard times
    Sat across from a man readin El Diario
    Riding the train down from El Barrio
    Went from the station straight to Orange Julius
    Bought a hot dog from my man George Drakoulias
    
    
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NEXT>7051
PREVIOUS>7045
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:51 1997
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 16, 1997 at 08:25:41:

   In Reply to: [7]Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Timothy on
    December 16, 1997 at 03:09:59:
    
    So I laid my head on the railroad track, waitin' on the double-E.
    But that train don't run by here no more, poor, poor pitiful me.
    
    -Linda Ronstadt
    
    I actually remember a DJ in NY saying (this would've been back in 1977
    or so) "Yea, it doesn't run by here no more because it's been replaced
    by the N train!"
    
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NEXT>7056
PREVIOUS>7035
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Abandoned Station(Bowtow)
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:53 1997
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 16, 1997 at 09:19:37:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Abandoned Station(Bowtow) posted by Chuck on
    December 16, 1997 at 00:01:41:
    
    There are two other abandoned stations in Queens east of Jamaica,
    Hillside and Bell-Aire. There's very little left of each, much less
    than at Union Hall, so you have to look pretty hard. Hillside is just
    west of the current Hillside Facility platform (as far as I know, it
    was a regular station, not employees-only like the current one.
    Bell-Aire is roughly equidistant between Hollis and Queens Village.
    
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NEXT>7050
PREVIOUS>7041
POSTER>LifeSaver 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:54 1997
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Posted by LifeSaver on December 16, 1997 at 09:28:53:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by
    Ed Sachs on December 15, 1997 at 22:21:23:
    
    I am sorry the train did not hit the bus, the BUS hit the train. The
    bus should not have been where it was. The bus driver killed those
    kids, the train was just the weapon used.
    
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NEXT>7135
PREVIOUS>7030
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Does anyone knows when "F" express service in Brooklyn will ever be
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:56 1997
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   In Reply to: [7]Does anyone knows when "F" express service in Brooklyn
    will ever be restored. posted by Steve on December 15, 1997 at
    22:27:30:
    
    If you mean south of Church Avenue: Since ridership is fairly low and
    the tracks are not in good condition, probably in the year 2525.
    
    If you mean north of Church Avenue: Since many people there hate
    climbing those steps at Bergen Street or having to wait 12 minutes for
    a train if they have split F service, or ever having to take four
    trains (G, F, A/C, 4/5) to go up Lexington Avenue, probably a few
    years after 2525.
    
    Just my opinion, based on how they had to get rid of the express
    service that they had tried with the 1967 Big Change. I just doubt
    they will ever do it again, even though, interestingly enough, it's
    the only 4-track line with no express service at all (other than the
    no-express-station Sea Beach which, as some have written, has lost one
    track already).
    
    
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NEXT>7075
PREVIOUS>7048
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
DATE>Dec 28 18:09:58 1997
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 16, 1997 at 09:48:51:

   In Reply to: [7]Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by BJ
    on December 15, 1997 at 21:02:21:
    
    BART is basically a very frequent commuter train with a cross-city
    (SF) urban section. For that matter, so is Washington's Metro, where I
    live. I like living 17 miles from the White House and knowing I have a
    train go into the city every 12 minutes, 6 during Rush hours.
    Scarsdale should be so lucky...
    
    New York, Chicago, Toronto, Philadelphia, etc. have stations that are
    almost always about 1/2 mile apart, and the tracks and curves were
    built for slower speeds. The systems with stations more than 1 mile
    apart can have high speeds in those section. The DC Metro does not go
    70 mph between Metro Center (11th-13th St.) and Gallery Place (7th-9th
    St.), but it sure does between Forest Glen and Wheaton, a distance of
    2 miles.
    
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NEXT>7073
PREVIOUS>7046
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:01 1997
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Posted by Nick on December 16, 1997 at 09:49:18:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Timothy Speer
    on December 16, 1997 at 06:10:12:
    
    I don't remember any other songs that had subways mentioned in them.
    However, Michael Jackson's "Bad" video in '88 was shot in a subway
    station (actually it was a Hollywood set). The Rolling Stones newest
    video has subway clips in it as well.-NICK
    
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NEXT>7054
PREVIOUS>7009
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost)
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:07 1997
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Posted by Nick on December 16, 1997 at 09:51:53:

   In Reply to: [8]Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost) posted
    by Julio Perez on December 15, 1997 at 13:16:13:
    
    I'd say go to the store and see if you can look at the calendar
    itself, since nobody seems to be able to answer your posts the way you
    want them answered.-NICK
    
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NEXT>7060
PREVIOUS>7034
POSTER>Chris C. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Free Ride
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:09 1997
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Posted by Chris C. on December 16, 1997 at 10:01:27:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Steve on December 15, 1997 at
    18:24:05:
    
    I know a couple that send their kids to private school every morning
    on the train, they swipe the card for the kids and then use the
    transfers to take the bus to work. This is perfectly legal. A cop sees
    them do it each morning and smiles. There is nothing petty about using
    the system to it's fullest. Not to mention that the metrocard is
    bringing families together.
    
    I know another guy who works at home but has to drop off and pick up
    at the office a few times a week. He takes the bus to the office and
    then uses his metrocard transfer on the subway for the return trip. My
    friend did not know he was doing it at first but the turnstyle would
    not deduct the fare from his card even if he wanted it to. The
    Governor says "free transfer from bus to subway from subway to bus" He
    does not say 'except if your going in a certain direction' Does the
    Governor feel petty about accepting the votes of the people who
    utilize the system he has put in place???? I seriously doubt it.
    
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NEXT>7077
PREVIOUS>7052
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost)
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:11 1997
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 16, 1997 at 10:05:22:

   In Reply to: [7]Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost) posted
    by Julio Perez on December 15, 1997 at 13:16:13:
    
    The Calendar has:
    
    R1, R-11,R-46, IRT 155-167 st Shuttle, R-29, B-type, Q-type,R-10
    (repainted), R-22, Lo-V, R-32, B-type, R-110A, R-46, R-7, R-9, R-110B
    
    I think it's nice to have even if it doesn't have exactly those cars
    that you prefer.
    
    The address on the calendar, for those who want it, is:
    
    Newkirk Images
    P.O. Box 237
    Copiague, N.Y. 11726-0237
    
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NEXT>7136
PREVIOUS>7038
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: B & C trains are switching terminals north of 145th St in the Spring
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:13 1997
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   In Reply to: [7]Re: B & C trains are switching terminals north of
    145th St in the Spring 1998. posted by Ben on December 16, 1997 at
    00:19:48:
    
    At first I read this and thought, what's he so angry about? Then I
    thought about it, and remembered an article in the Brooklyn section of
    a recent Daily News, and wondered, why do people make such a big deal
    about the Brighton Line getting not such good cars and the West End
    Line getting cars that the Brighton Line used to get? Every time cars
    are bought, replaced, or switched around, someone has the newer ones,
    and someone has the older ones. Over the long haul, it all seems
    pretty even to me.
    
    I think this guy has a right to be angry that everything is written
    from the Brighton line point of view and never from the West End point
    of view.
    
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NEXT>7114
PREVIOUS>7047
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Abandoned Station(Bowtow)
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:16 1997
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 16, 1997 at 11:16:34:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Abandoned Station(Bowtow) posted by Peter Rosa on
    December 16, 1997 at 09:19:37:
    
    I just remembered, there is another abandoned LIRR station east of
    Jamaica, Springfield Gardens. This station is on the Babylon line,
    unlike the other ones. About all that remains of Springfield Gardens
    is a rusted sign reading "8 M-1," which told the engineers where to
    stop the trains. (Actually, it might be "6 M-1," I can't remember for
    sure). The only other indication that a station ever existed is an
    empty space between the tracks, evidently once occupied by an island
    platform.
    Query: Why was the LIRR so diligent about eradicating all traces of
    Springfield Gardens (and to a slightly lesser extent Hillside and
    Bell-Aire), when it left Union Hall semi-intact?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Bus service on Staten Island. Renumberd
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:17 1997
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 16, 1997 at 11:30:23:

   In Reply to: [7]Bus service on Staten Island. posted by Charles Fiori
    on December 15, 1997 at 12:58:38:
    
    They were renumbered back when I was just out of high school, mid to
    late 80's. 70's were north/south, 50's east/west, 60's victory blvd
    from what I remember.
    The S59 old S4 no longer goes to Tottenville outside of rush/school
    hours and ends at Hylan Blvd/Rich Ave.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7000
POSTER>sdc-foti 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Interview for a school project
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:19 1997
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Posted by sdc-foti on December 16, 1997 at 11:35:59:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Interview for a school project posted by Gary
    Jacobi on December 15, 1997 at 11:46:53:
    
    Talk To John Erlitz in the Transit Museum, Attend His tour and ask him
    Your
    Questions.
    
    Foti.
    
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NEXT>7074
PREVIOUS>7025
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subway train speed
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:21 1997
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Posted by Steve on December 16, 1997 at 11:37:31:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Subway train speed posted by Cool Knight on
    December 15, 1997 at 19:40:16:
    
    There is no 87 MPH. According to the speed vs distance tables for the
    R-68/R68A fleets, it takes 3,900 feet of level-tangent track to
    achieve a speed of 40 MPH. Top speed - regardless of distance on
    straight-level track is 45-48 MPH.
    
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NEXT>7061
PREVIOUS>7053
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Free Ride
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:22 1997
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Posted by Steve on December 16, 1997 at 11:44:05:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C. on December 16, 1997
    at 10:01:27:
    
    Seems to me that a simple programming change should correct the
    situation you explained. Just have to specify that you can't board a
    bus from the same train station where you entered the system. I have
    forwarded your example to the people in The Revenue Department for
    review. I'd appreciate any other constructive you might have....
    
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NEXT>7065
PREVIOUS>7060
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Free Ride
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:24 1997
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Posted by Steve on December 16, 1997 at 11:44:18:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C. on December 16, 1997
    at 10:01:27:
    
    Seems to me that a simple programming change should correct the
    situation you explained. Just have to specify that you can't board a
    bus from the same train station where you entered the system. I have
    forwarded your example to the people in The Revenue Department for
    review. I'd appreciate any other constructive ideas you might have....
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Free Ride Fare Beating = Handcuffs
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:26 1997
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 16, 1997 at 11:45:48:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Joe M on December 14, 1997 at
    23:28:21:
    
    If you jump the turnstile and a police officer catches you, you will
    be handcuffed, sat down and a ticket written. Forget the dollar amount
    of the fine and just enjoy the handcuffs like any other criminal.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>6910
POSTER>Color Blind 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:27 1997
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Posted by Color Blind on December 16, 1997 at 11:48:05:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS posted by Brian Wolk on
    December 12, 1997 at 20:37:55:
    
    Great and if I am color blind??
    I'll take letters/numbers anyday.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>6991
POSTER>NIMBY #2 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS (NIMBY)
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:29 1997
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Posted by NIMBY #2 on December 16, 1997 at 11:52:45:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: SUBWAYS IN GENERAL, FOLKS (NIMBY) posted by NIMBY
    on SI on December 15, 1997 at 09:19:39:
    
    Keep the subway out of statne island, we have enough problems with
    just two buses that go to brooklyn for $1.50 and now we will have more
    invaders.
    
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NEXT>7066
PREVIOUS>7061
POSTER>Chris C. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Free Ride
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:31 1997
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Posted by Chris C. on December 16, 1997 at 12:09:18:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Steve on December 16, 1997 at
    11:44:05:
    
    If the TA wants to ad restrictions to their transfer policy your idea
    seems to be the best way to handle it. It does, however, seem that
    everyone would benefit by reducing the number of rules and
    regulations. I would be willing to pay a monthly fee slightly higher
    than average ridership to have total access to all busses and trains
    at all times. I would be saved the hastle of waiting on line for cards
    and tokens and the TA would save on having to build into the system
    enforcement of lots of petty rules. Perhaps they would save enought to
    give us total access for less than the cost of average ridership! In
    the end, less rules and restrictions means everybody wins.
    
    
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NEXT>7093
PREVIOUS>7065
POSTER>Tim 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Free Ride
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:32 1997
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Posted by Tim on December 16, 1997 at 12:21:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C. on December 16, 1997
    at 12:09:18:
    
    Maybe you should spend the money you will save on the new fare
    structure on a dictionary and a grammar book! Learn the difference
    between "its" and "it's!"
    
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NEXT>7145
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music (My Findings, So Far)
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:34 1997
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Posted by Timothy on December 16, 1997 at 12:54:10:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Nick on
    December 16, 1997 at 09:49:18:
    
    In the 1960's, Petula Clark did a song called "Don't sleep in the
    subway",
    in the mid 1970's, rock group Blue Oyster Cult did 2 songs, one was
    called
    "Morning Final", from the album "Agents of fortune", which also
    includes
    sound effects of a subway train pulling into a station at the end of
    the
    song. The other one is "Godzilla". In the 1980's, rock (heavy metal)
    group
    Ratt did a song called "You're in love", from the album "Invasion of
    your
    privacy", which opens with the line "You take the midnight subway
    train".
    I know that Van Halen did a song on one of their earlier albums, that
    mentions "subway", but I'm not sure which one it was. I just want to
    know
    how many other songs there are that mention subways in their lyrics.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Polo Grounds Shuttle Photos
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:36 1997
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Posted by Timothy on December 16, 1997 at 13:25:51:

   I have a question concerning one of the Polo Grounds Shuttle photos in
    the
    Abandoned Elevateds section of Historical Perspectives. On the photo
    of
    the Polo Grounds Shuttle that is labeled "Polo2jpg", which was taken
    at
    155th Street and 8th Ave., although not visible in the photo, Where
    would
    the still existing 155th Street stairways be, approximately? The photo
    shows an aerial end view of the el structure, but I couldn't see the
    stairways that lead from the station to the street. Apparently, they
    are
    probably hidden by the el structure. Also, would anyone by any chance
    have
    photos of the Polo Grounds Shuttle stations and el structure taken
    from
    street level, that would show the stairways leading up to the
    stations, or
    any photos that show the ornate features on the Polo Grounds Shuttle,
    as
    well as the 9th Ave. El, such as the ornamental iron railings on the
    stairways, etc.? If so, Could you post them in SubTalk, or e-mail them
    to
    me? Thank you very much.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>sdc-foti 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: B & C trains are switching terminals (Now, trains that I like)
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:38 1997
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Posted by sdc-foti on December 16, 1997 at 13:40:58:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: B & C trains are switching terminals north of
    145th St in the Spring 1998. posted by Christopher Rivera on December
    13, 1997 at 16:02:40:
    
    I like the R10, 36=33, 32 AND 38, 29,28, AND 26
    ANY CAR THAT DOES NOT HAVE A VINTAGE OF AT LEAST 30+ YEARS
    I DON'T CARE MUCH FOR.
    
    OH AND OF COURSE THE 27'S AND 30'S
    
    Foti
    
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NEXT>7078
PREVIOUS>7037
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R142 & R144
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:39 1997
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 16, 1997 at 13:53:32:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: R142 & R144 posted by George on December 16, 1997
    at 00:15:11:
    
    It's been suggested that the R32/38 could continue in service for 20+
    more years, if the maintainence is kept up, due to the overly
    extensive rebuild of these cars, which replaced everything but the
    frames and bodies. The R40/42 cars, however, were bad in the begining,
    and rebuilt worse.
    -Hank
    
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NEXT>7089
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Bus service on Staten Island Renumberd
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:41 1997
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 16, 1997 at 14:14:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Bus service on Staten Island. Renumberd posted by
    Lou from Brooklyn on December 16, 1997 at 11:30:23:
    
    They were renumbered in late 80's, in several sections....
    The victory Blvd buses (s6, 6s, 111,106,112) became the s60 series
    (s66,60,61/91,67,62/92, rpt) The 111 was technically discontinued, but
    it was replaced by the 61 on the northern section of its route. Only
    the 6 ran full-time to the ferry, off hours, the 106/111 ran as a
    combined route, from the Port Richmond 106 terminal to the Newdorp 111
    terminal. this became the 57, now a full time, though not 24hour,
    service. 67 runs rush only, peak direction. 60 is the Grymes Hill
    Shuttle.
    The buses serving the North Shore(s1,101,102,3,108) became the s40
    series (s40,42,44/94,46/96,48/98)
    South Shore buses (from the ferry to the south shore) got the 70
    series. s103,109,113,117 bcame s78 (tottenville branch of 103) 79(mall
    branch of 103, since rerouted from Ferry to Brooklyn) 72 (since
    eliminated) 74, and 76.
    Cross-island buses, which went from the north to the south, were 115,
    106/111(combined route), 7, 104, 2, 4, 110. They became the 55/56
    (loop route, now goes to the mall as separate lines, but operated
    together) 57, 53,52,51,59, and 54. The 52/51 were resrtuctured when
    the 72 was eliminated, and the 54 was extended to richmond/hylan, when
    the 59 was cut to tottenville only.
    I could get more extensive when I'm not sick...
    -Hank
    
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NEXT>7278
PREVIOUS>6999
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Last Stop
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:43 1997
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 16, 1997 at 14:23:01:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Last Stop posted by subway-buff on December 13,
    1997 at 06:38:27:
    
    I have the new 'SUBWAYS' book, it shows a tunnel at fltbush extending
    beyond the bumper block in one photo...the block is damaged from a
    train collision, and the caption readss 'trying to exten the nostrand
    ave subway the hard way, or something similar....
    -Hank
    
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NEXT>7090
PREVIOUS>7051
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:44 1997
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Posted by Adam on December 16, 1997 at 14:45:41:

   In Reply to: [8]Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Timothy on
    December 16, 1997 at 03:09:59:
    
    Subways in music....
    Well, how about that song that goes something like "Working on the
    Chain Gang"
    Then there was this song I think by Rod Stewart called "Downtown
    Train" a few years ago.
    Also, there was this song called something like "On the Playground"
    that had a video filmed in the subway. It was by a group consisting of
    little kids, they were a one hit wonder.
    And finally, on the cover of one of McSerch's singles it says on the
    cover "Far Rockaway 1992" there's a picture of McSerch running under
    the el there. It is the single for the song "Here it Comes"
    Sorry if these are sketchy details but it's all I can come up with at
    the moment.
    
    
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NEXT>7083
PREVIOUS>7059
POSTER>Nathan 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subway train speed
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:47 1997
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Posted by Nathan on December 16, 1997 at 15:35:48:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Subway train speed posted by Steve on December 16,
    1997 at 11:37:31:
    
    3900 feet of straight and level track to get to 40???
    I didn't know that the acceleration was THAT bad...
    
    By the way, I have only been to NYC a few times, but each time I go
    the subway seems to travel slower. Anyone else notice it? could just
    be me, I guess...
    
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NEXT>7084
PREVIOUS>7050
POSTER>Alan Follett 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:49 1997
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Posted by Alan Follett on December 16, 1997 at 16:11:07:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by
    Ed Sachs on December 15, 1997 at 22:21:23:
    
    I'd second LifeSaver's prior followup to this post--it was the
    driver's carelessness, not unreasonable train speed, that caused the
    Metra/school bus accident a couple of years back. Sure, grade crossing
    accidents could probably be reduced by lower speeds, or, as far as
    that goes, eliminated altogether if train speeds were limited to 3
    MPH; but in most cases I believe the social benefits of faster transit
    outweigh the dangers of crossing accidents. The points at which the
    grade crossing problem can more productively be addressed are, first,
    driver education; second, more law enforcement attention to drivers
    who seem oblivious to the dangers of crossings; and, third, putting
    available highway and transit funding to use in eliminating grade
    crossings. Obviously there just isn't enough money out there to do
    this everywhere, but a whatever funds are available should be
    prioritized to address those crossings with the highest traffic and/or
    highest danger. This is the sort of thing that is now being done in
    several grade-separation projects on the Caltrain Peninsula suburban
    line, for example.
    
    In any event, Metra is somewhat off-topic from the original question,
    which concerned New York and Chicago subways. The Metra train involved
    was a diesel-hauled push-pull commuter train far out in the northwest
    suburbs, not a CTA rapid transit train.
    
    CTA station intervals currently average about a mile, with longer
    spacings on some of the newer lines such as the Blue Line west of
    Jefferson Park. Thus, there are few opportunities for truly high
    speeds. However, where these opportunities exist--for example, on the
    Yellow Line (Skokie Swift), and on the Purple Line (Evanston) Express
    service on the outer tracks between Howard and Wilson, trains clip
    along at a fairly respectable speed which I would estimate to be in
    the 60 MPH range.
    
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NEXT>7333
PREVIOUS>6828
POSTER>Chris C. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: "Transportation Justice"
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:51 1997
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Posted by Chris C. on December 16, 1997 at 16:21:54:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: "Transportation Justice" posted by Joe M on
    December 12, 1997 at 14:53:10:
    
    I agree,
    Raise the gas tax a few pennies and raise the NYC tolls an extra
    dollar during rush hour. I would even explore adding to the 18.25%
    parking tax in New York city. Together with a few federal dollars
    these revenue could get the system up to ass kicking speed!
    
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NEXT>7096
PREVIOUS>7054
POSTER>Julio Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost)
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:52 1997
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Posted by Julio Perez on December 16, 1997 at 16:31:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost)
    posted by Nick on December 16, 1997 at 09:51:53:
    
    I wholeheartedly agree with your idea, Nick. Only one problem: I live
    1,400 miles away in suburban Miami, and was not planning to go to the
    city on vacation this year.
    
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NEXT>7086
PREVIOUS>7070
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R142 & R144
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:54 1997
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Posted by Bootsy on December 16, 1997 at 17:52:36:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: R142 & R144 posted by Hank Eisenstein on December
    16, 1997 at 13:53:32:
    
    If the R-32s and R-38s are rebuilt again, do you think some of the
    original charateristics will return, like the blue doors, large
    destination sign up front and the straps?
    
    
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NEXT>7087
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>JFK light rail ...more info
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:56 1997
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on December 16, 1997 at 18:34:04:

   The newsletter, being green print on tan paper, turns out to be
    unscannable. So here is the main portion.
    The Port Authority of NY and NJ, which operates JFK, plans to
    construct an automated driverless 8.4 mile light rail system that will
    include a circulator serving the airports nine air terminals, and two
    legs serving the remote parking areas, rental car facilities, and two
    nearby transportation hubs at Howard Beach and Jamaica. At Howard
    Beach, LRS riders can access the NYCT's A subway line, which makes
    stops in Queens and Brooklyn and travels the entire length of
    Manhattan. At Jamaica, the LRS station will be situated in a
    multi-modal facility where there is a connection to more than 1,000
    subway and Long Island RR commuter rail trains every weekday. From
    there LRS riders can reach destinations such as Penn Station in
    Manhattan,Queens, Brooklyn, and most of Long Island.
    The $1.5 billion project is expected to take 4 to 5 years to
    construct.
    The system will be steel wheel on steel rail and have a third rail
    current collection to MATCH THE EXISTING TRANSPORTATION NETWORK. (My
    Caps) It will have dimensions similar to NYCT's Division B subway
    cars, although the system must also be able to accomodate a wider LIRR
    compatible car.
    The system will be driverless; the cars will operate and stop at
    stations and the vehicle doors will be opened and closed without an
    operator. ( Are you listening Mike Quill? A ZOMBIE train!) All
    stations will be equipped with platform doors to prohibit the
    intrusion of any materials or individuals onto the tracks, and to
    allow for heating and air-conditioning of the platform and station
    areas. ( A horizontal Elevator!)
    
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NEXT>7138
PREVIOUS>7040
POSTER>Gerry O'Regan 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Third Rail Electrical Properties
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:58 1997
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Posted by Gerry O'Regan on December 16, 1997 at 19:08:38:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Third Rail Electrical Properties posted by Gary
    Jacobi on December 15, 1997 at 11:55:10:
    
    By using impedance bonds (essentially transformers) between sections
    both AC signal current and DC ground return can be carried on the same
    rail. Whan a car on the section shorts the two rails, an AC voltage is
    generated accross the impedance bonds at either end of the section,
    and is used to trip the signal relays.
    
    DC signalling (one rail DC ground, the other rail signals) is
    unreliable where sand may be used, since the ground return can follow
    the signal circuit with devastating results.
    
    Gerry
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7039
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Sacramento LRT (was Re: Seattle Metro plans... what?)
DATE>Dec 28 18:10:59 1997
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on December 16, 1997 at 19:31:33:

   In Reply to: [7]Sacramento LRT (was Re: Seattle Metro plans... what?)
    posted by Nathan on December 16, 1997 at 01:47:04:
    
    Yes it is. Express bus used to take under 30 min to downtown. But
    busses now take you to light rail, and the total trip is over 40 min.
    The trip by carpool is 20 min. Last year Light Rail carried 28,000
    daily riders, most of whom had little choice as busses no longer run
    to downtown from neighborhoods beyond light rail.
    
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NEXT>7085
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>John 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>LIRR Controller
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:01 1997
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Posted by John on December 16, 1997 at 21:05:08:

   What does the ATC setting on the LIRR trains do?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7074
POSTER>Cool Knight 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subway train speed
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:02 1997
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Posted by Cool Knight on December 16, 1997 at 21:19:01:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Subway train speed posted by Bootsy on December
    14, 1997 at 13:32:00:
    
    Does anybody know if it is kilometers of miles?????
    
    
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NEXT>7102
PREVIOUS>7075
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:04 1997
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Posted by Joe M on December 16, 1997 at 23:45:05:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by
    Alan Follett on December 16, 1997 at 16:11:07:
    
    
    Skokie swift is running a top speed at about 55 mph with an average
    speed of 35 mph nonstop end to end for the 5 mile link. At one time
    they ran a top speed of 70 mph with an average speed of 46, but the
    time diff for the short route and only one stop was insignificant
    About 2 minutes. 6.5 min verses 8.5 min
    
    At Howeard street you have to connect ot the red line trains running
    at 5 to 8 minute headways or the Purple line.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7082
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: LIRR Controller
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:06 1997
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 17, 1997 at 02:10:35:

   In Reply to: [8]LIRR Controller posted by John on December 16, 1997 at
    21:05:08:
    
    Of course, the answer is (drumroll, please)
    
    NOTHING!!!!!
    
    But seriously, it WAS supposed to provide for more or less totally
    automatic control of speed, etc. I believe much like the Bart. This,
    of course, never happened on the LIRR, and I don't know if the m-3s
    have it or not. Heck, I'm not sure if the m-1a 's have it. Actually, I
    was told by an engineer that the actual equipment doesn't exist, just
    the controller notch. My guess is that it was left for expansion??
    Note that this isn't the ASC on the LIRR, which is just a wimpy cab
    signal system. Bear in mind too that the M-1s were DESIGNED for a >
    100 mph top speed. I tend to think that the LIRR had much bigger plans
    for the M-1s than what actually was implemented..
    
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NEXT>7097
PREVIOUS>7078
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R142 & R144
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:07 1997
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 17, 1997 at 02:23:56:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: R142 & R144 posted by Bootsy on December 16, 1997
    at 17:52:36:
    
    I can see the ta rebuilding the R32 and R38 forever. These are sturdy,
    solidly built cars, and as long as the frames and bodies are in shape,
    mechanical rebuilds should be all they need...motors, trucks, etc are
    normal maintaince, so really door and door motor replacements,
    controller rebulds, and a/c repairs are all they should need.
    -Hank
    
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NEXT>7094
PREVIOUS>7079
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: JFK light rail ...more info
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:09 1997
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 17, 1997 at 02:29:47:

   In Reply to: [8]JFK light rail ...more info posted by Gary Jacobi on
    December 16, 1997 at 18:34:04:
    
    Hmm.. the PA may actually have done something right???
    
    Ok, it is a GENIUS move ensureing compatibility with current LIRR (and
    therefore IND/BMT) equipment. My guess is that any new
    trackage/substations will be stressed for M-1s too (hopefully). This
    would allow an EASY direct link to Penn. If the trackage is able to
    take M-2s, then it also allows New Haven line acess, by way of the
    Hell's Gate bridge (now THAT would be fun!). Which would also let
    Metro North attack Penn from both sides :) (their current MilePost
    newsletter says they'll be comming from Jersey there in 2000).
    Hmm...drop in 12k catenary, and you've got Slamtrak acess to the
    airports too...
    
    Now - these driverless train things - bad move. I don't think people
    trust computers that much. Oh yeah, that also means a direct
    connection to LIRR/subway would be hard on account of lack of
    trackside signals. But I'm sure they could be grafted on easily.
    
    I think the doors at platforms is going to be a disaster too. It also
    limits what equipment can be used at the stations (hmm...do I smell
    something??)
    
    Well, at least the compatibility with LIRR stuff is a good idea. I
    also think they should look into Metro North/LIRR acess to the
    airport, and maybe subway too.
    
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NEXT>7141
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Unusual Amtrak coach
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:11 1997
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 17, 1997 at 08:35:28:

   I saw an interesting Amtrak coach this morning on track 9 in South
    Station in Boston -- it had curtains in the windows, and had an open
    vestibule carved out at the end of the car. I think I saw the words
    "Beech Grove" on the side. Does anyone know what this coach is used
    for?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7071
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Bus service on Staten Island Renumberd
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:12 1997
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 17, 1997 at 08:46:54:

   In Reply to: [7]Bus service on Staten Island Renumberd posted by Hank
    Eisenstein on December 16, 1997 at 14:14:47:
    
    Ah, progress! I also remembered that somewhere in my collection I have
    an example of a front route curtain from an "old-look" Staten island
    bus." The renumbering in Manhattan made some sense, but the geography
    of S.I. doesn't seem to lend itself as well to such a scheme.
    
    Remember when in Manhattan there were 2 #15s (1st/2d Avs & Queens) and
    2 #6s (6 Av & what became the M30). Now that was confusing! Would
    still like to find some of those old destination signs!!!
    
    Feel better, Hank, and thanks for your detailed response.
    
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NEXT>7132
PREVIOUS>7073
POSTER>Lou from Middletown 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:14 1997
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Posted by Lou from Middletown on December 17, 1997 at 09:26:24:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Nick on
    December 16, 1997 at 09:49:18:
    
    The Stones have in their closet a GREAT song called "Do you
    think(IReally Care)?" [its also known as Yellow Cab] in which Jagger
    sings about trying to find a certain girl all over NYC. One of the
    lyrics is "Saw her on thew subway/saw her on the D train...."
    Unfortunately, its only available on bootleg, so good luck trying to
    find it!!!
    
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NEXT>7123
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Braking
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:16 1997
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 17, 1997 at 09:26:55:

   I understand the concept of resistance braking, but is anyone willing
    to explain how regenerative systems work? Where are they used? Will
    the new NYC cars have them?
    
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NEXT>7099
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lou from Middletown 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>To one and all....
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:17 1997
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Posted by Lou from Middletown on December 17, 1997 at 09:30:42:

   Before things get too hectic this next week, I would like to wish
    everyone who posts on this site, and especially to Mr.Pirrman, the
    happiest of Holiday seasons, and a Happy New Year! May all your
    signals in life be green over green,and all your controllers be in
    series!!
    
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NEXT>7098
PREVIOUS>7066
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Free Ride
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:20 1997
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on December 17, 1997 at 09:55:39:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C. on December 15, 1997
    at 14:23:16:
    
    I really don't think the transfer policy was intended for the
    "advantages and/or priviledges" that you speak of. It's sort of like a
    bus rider (before the this current system) paying his/her fare and
    then giving (or selling) the transfer because he/she dosen't intend to
    use the transfer. This I know is not legal because transfers are to be
    used only by the person it was issued to. Therefore any other use
    would be misuse.
    
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NEXT>7095
PREVIOUS>7087
POSTER>John B. Bredin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: JFK light rail ...more info
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:22 1997
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Posted by John B. Bredin on December 17, 1997 at 09:59:25:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by Philip
    Nasadowski on December 17, 1997 at 02:29:47:
    
    I think that the automated light rail to JFK is a bad idea, but not
    because of the automation. At O'Hare in Chicago, people ride "these
    driverless train things" all the time between the terminals and the
    remote parking lots, and very few people complain about the lack of a
    driver. No, the problem is that a separate airport rail system that
    links with the LIRR or subway requires passengers with luggage to lug
    it (pun intended) between the light rail and the main line into the
    city. They should skip the light rail and extend either the LIRR or
    the subway (preferably the subway) all the way to the airport.
    
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NEXT>7100
PREVIOUS>7094
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: JFK light rail ...more info
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:24 1997
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 17, 1997 at 09:59:30:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by Philip
    Nasadowski on December 17, 1997 at 02:29:47:
    
    Except for the steel wheels, it sounds something like the system at
    O'Hare. Rubber wheels out here, and no drivers. Can't understand why
    they need signals, except if they want to allow for motorperson
    operation under certain circumstances. Stations on ORD people mover
    are enclosed, with doors only opening whent trains arrive. So does
    this basically use the abandoned ROW of the Woodhaven Branch?
    
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NEXT>7103
PREVIOUS>7077
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost)
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:25 1997
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 17, 1997 at 09:59:59:

   In Reply to: [7]Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost) posted
    by Julio Perez on December 15, 1997 at 13:16:13:
    
    No #7 Flushing Line trains this year.
    
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NEXT>7106
PREVIOUS>7086
POSTER>sdc-foti 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R142 & R144
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:27 1997
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Posted by sdc-foti on December 17, 1997 at 10:10:35:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: R142 & R144 posted by Bootsy on December 16, 1997
    at 17:52:36:
    
    I don't think so, the fad is stainless steel and not paint, i don't
    think they want to put good old fashioned roll signs into the sign
    holders.
    
    The "Cyclops" are here to stay.
    
    -foti
    
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NEXT>7101
PREVIOUS>7093
POSTER>Chris C 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Free Ride
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:29 1997
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Posted by Chris C on December 17, 1997 at 10:12:37:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Wayne Johnson on December 17,
    1997 at 09:55:39:
    
    You're right!
    I recently read a story where two camp instructors used the metrocard
    to take a group of kids on a field trip. Each one swiped a card a
    number of times to allow the group and themselves on. Later when they
    transfered to the subway they were ticketed because the kids didn't
    enter the turnstyles in the same order corresponding to the various
    cards used!!! I think the fine was $75 per kid!!!
    So watch out!
    
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NEXT>7130
PREVIOUS>7092
POSTER>Chris C. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: To one and all....
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:30 1997
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Posted by Chris C. on December 17, 1997 at 10:16:12:

   In Reply to: [7]To one and all.... posted by Lou from Middletown on
    December 17, 1997 at 09:30:42:
    
    Thank you and happy hollidays!
    
    A little cheer goes a long way over hostility.
    This board has needed some.
    
    Have a good one.
    
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NEXT>7117
PREVIOUS>7095
POSTER>Walter 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: JFK light rail ...more info
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:32 1997
EMAILNOTICES>no
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Posted by Walter on December 17, 1997 at 11:33:33:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by Philip
    Nasadowski on December 17, 1997 at 02:29:47:
    
    That all great, except that at a recent ERA meeting, a Port Authority
    spokesman said the elevated structure for the Light Rail to JFK
    Airport would not be strong enough to carry NYCTA or LIRR cars. The
    light Airport cars could continue to Manhattan or elsewhere
    (presumably with a motorman) over subway or LIRR tracks, but subway or
    LIRR trains could not travel over the Port Authority airport access
    routes from Jamaica or Howard Beach to JFK. In the airport the grades
    and curves would also not allow subway or LIRR-car use.
    
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NEXT>7104
PREVIOUS>7098
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Free Ride
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:33 1997
EMAILNOTICES>no
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on December 17, 1997 at 12:05:43:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C on December 17, 1997
    at 10:12:37:
    
    Wow, that's unfortunate, especially if the counselors were unaware
    that they were not using the system incorrectly. I'm not sure, but I
    thought that a single MetroCard to be swiped up to 4 times and then
    when the transfer is made you swipe it once and up to 4 transfers are
    accepted.
    
    RE: NYS Governor - It's my opinion the G. Pataki is endorsing this
    fare card deal for the NYCTA part of his re-election campaign. For
    many years he has been anti-downstate, and even more when Giuliani
    crossed the party line during the election.
    
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NEXT>7105
PREVIOUS>7084
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:35 1997
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 17, 1997 at 12:29:50:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by
    Joe M on December 16, 1997 at 23:45:05:
    
    Riding on the upper level one Sunday afternoon going into Chicago,
    along Metra's UP-North line, the engineer told me that he will go as
    fast as 75mph south of Rogers Park (or was it south of Ravenswood).
    When I take the 5:07pm express home, it goes non-stop from Chicago to
    Wilmette, and once the train gets past Clybourn, it really does
    accelerate, as most of the running is on tangent, level track. As I
    have no opportunity to chat with the engineer or that ride, I don't
    know exactly how fast it goes.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7096
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost)
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:37 1997
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Posted by Nick on December 17, 1997 at 12:35:02:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Questions on Contents of 1998 Calendar (Repost)
    posted by Julio Perez on December 16, 1997 at 16:31:30:
    
    Well at least you were able to find out about the #7 trains not being
    in it. If I buy the calendar, I'll let you know what it is like.-NICK
    
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NEXT>7107
PREVIOUS>7101
POSTER>Chris C. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Free Ride
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:38 1997
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Posted by Chris C. on December 17, 1997 at 12:47:31:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Wayne Johnson on December 17,
    1997 at 12:05:43:
    
    You are right about swiping the card 4 times. The way I understand the
    story that's what they did. But because they were a group swiping more
    than one card one or two of the four on the first card were among the
    four on the second card when they transfered and vice verca. In other
    words the groups of 4 became intermingled when they went to get on the
    subway. They were busted because technically they were swapping cards,
    in effect using someone elses transfer!
    This goes to prove my point that the system has too many petty rules.
    The metrocard is supposed to streamline things and make them easier.
    What the system needs is less restrictions and more freedom. An
    unlimited monthly pass is a possible solution.
    
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NEXT>7124
PREVIOUS>7102
POSTER>Joe-M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:40 1997
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Posted by Joe-M on December 17, 1997 at 13:43:34:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by
    Charles Fiori on December 17, 1997 at 12:29:50:
    
    
    I think the north line is signaled for 78 or 79 mph operation. The
    5:07 is the one with the private dining car on it isn't it. That train
    set is parked here at night and is allways parked up on the elevation
    because it is to long to go down below into the coach yards.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7097
POSTER>a R68A passenger 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R142 & R144
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:42 1997
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Posted by a R68A passenger on December 17, 1997 at 14:30:46:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: R142 & R144 posted by Bootsy on December 16, 1997
    at 17:52:36:
    
    Would it be a good idea to install the "ding-dong" closing door noises
    on R32 and R38 if they have rebuilt again?
    
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NEXT>7111
PREVIOUS>7104
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Free Ride
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:43 1997
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Posted by David Pirmann on December 17, 1997 at 14:31:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C on December 17, 1997
    at 10:12:37:
    
    Can you provide a cite for this story?
    
    There's no way you could tell which 4 kids were sent thru on which
    Metrocard. There's nothing that associates a Metrocard with a body. If
    I have 7 kids and 2 metrocards, I can swipe each card 4 times on the
    bus to deduct 8 fares (7 kids+myself) then go to the subway and swipe
    each once for 8 transfers. Who cares what order the kids go thru? How
    can someone even tell? Was the cop/token booth clerk/bus driver that
    busted them also present when they boarded the first vehicle?
    Unlikely!
    
    Without a cite on this story I think it's bullshit.
    
    -Dave
    
    
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NEXT>7149
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>David Pirmann - Web Site Host 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>WWW.NYCSUBWAY.ORG Newsletter
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:45 1997
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Posted by David Pirmann - Web Site Host on December 17, 1997 at

   
                            WWW.NYCSUBWAY.ORG NEWS
                                       
    Hi all. I thought I would post a little newsletter describing what's
    going on behind the scenes here at www.nycsubway.org.
    
                             Call for Volunteers
                                       
    You may have noticed that the announcement of new pages has dwindled
    recently. This is due to lack of access to good source materials and
    time to work on new sections. I've put together a list of
    [8]Volunteering Ideas that might give you some impetus to contribute!
    All volunteers are welcome.
    
                                  New Stuff
                                       
    That being said, there have been some updates recently.
      * [9]Transit Maps: Some new maps added
      * [10]BAHN Subway Simulator: Some new layouts added
      * [11]Transfer Station: All sections overhauled with some new links
        and removal of dead ones
        
    Coming soon:
      * A new page of photos from my recent trip to Paris, France, and
        Brussels, Belgium
      * A new page of photos from the demolition of the Culver Shuttle
        contributed by Jeff Saltzman.
        
    The major project in the works is the upgrading of the web server to a
    Sparcstation 2 running Solaris 2.6, with a nice new fat 4 Gigabyte
    drive. This will allow us to expand even further as you [12]volunteers
    contribute stuff! :-)
    
                                 Server Stats
                                       
    I thought it would be interesting to compare the server statistics
    from November 1996 to those from November 1997.
    
    1997 1996
    _Pages Served_ 138,027 59,368
    _Images Served_ 522,500 137,969
    
    The server is busier than ever, pumping out on average 2 Gigabytes of
    pages and images each week. This is even with our intermittant network
    problems!
    
                               Announcements...
                                       
    I figured I'd through these in here in case people aren't aware.
      * Our [13]Track Maps, provided by Peter Dougherty, are now available
        as a spiral-bound book, perfect for carrying with you on subway
        expeditions. Contact Peter at [14]brakeman@nycsubway.org for
        details.
      * I am working on a CD-ROM of images from Brooklyn and Third Avenue
        (Bronx-Westchester) trolleys. If you'd be interested in purchasing
        one for approx. $20, it would help fund web site development and
        offset my hardware costs.
      * Our Internet connection is graciously donated by [15]NetK2NE
        Internet. We thank them for their patience and ongoing support.
        
    Well, that's it for this first "issue". Any feedback is of course
    welcome, via [16]SubTalk, or the [17]Feedback Form.
    
    --Dave
    
    
    
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NEXT>7110
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Michael S. Buglak 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:47 1997
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Posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 17, 1997 at 15:13:43:

   At the present time, does NYC Transit have any other make of bus in
    regular revenue service (as opposed to work service, historical, etc.)
    other than:
    1) GMC/TMC/NovaBus RTS, 2)Orion V, or 3)New Flyer Articulated?
    If so, what depots and/or routes are they assigned to?
    Also, does any operator in the NYC Metro area have either Neoplan or
    Ikarus (North American Bus Industries) transits? (I know that neither
    NYCT nor NJ Transit do.)
    As always, any info much appreciated...Michael S. Buglak,
    Collegeville, PA
    
    
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NEXT>7120
PREVIOUS>7109
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:49 1997
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on December 17, 1997 at 16:11:07:

   In Reply to: [8]NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Michael S. Buglak on
    December 17, 1997 at 15:13:43:
    
    You've just named all of the type of buses in the NYCT fleet -
    Actually this is the biggest variety of buses in many years. I was
    afraid that the fleet would eventually be all RTS - We were very close
    until 1993 when the Orions started arriving. The NYCTA has tested both
    40' and 60'-articulated Neoplans, but never bought any. I don't think
    NJT has any either. I believe NYCT is due to receive some MCI coaches
    for express service.
    
    
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NEXT>7125
PREVIOUS>7107
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Free Ride
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:51 1997
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on December 17, 1997 at 16:36:13:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Wayne Johnson on December 17,
    1997 at 12:05:43:
    
    No, Chris, I have to agree with Dave; the system can count, but it
    can't differentiate between individuals. This doesn't mean we don't
    believe your story, but we suspect the counselor had actually done
    something other than what he told the press. It may have been an
    innocent mistake on his part, and MTA may have let the story stand to
    get the message out that you can't beat the system, even though you
    obviously CAN.
    
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NEXT>7122
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Michael S. Buglak 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too)
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:53 1997
EMAILNOTICES>no
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Posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 17, 1997 at 16:41:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Wayne Johnson on
    December 17, 1997 at 16:11:07:
    
    Thanks for the info, Wayne. Actually, here in the Philadelphia area it
    seemed like for a while that SEPTA would be an all-Neoplan fleet,
    until Ikarus finally broke Neoplan's strangehold in 1996. For a while
    between 1989 & 1996, SEPTA had 1,092 Neoplans, 298 RTSes, & 50 Volvo
    Artics. (Oh yes, I forgot the lone 40-foot Volvo!)
    I believe that SEPTA (until earlier in 1997, when the oldest Neoplans
    from 1982-83 were retired) operated more Neoplans than ANY property in
    North America.
    The interesting thing about SEPTA's Neoplans is that we have (at
    present) 5 different orders,!1984,1985,1986,1987,1989), 3 different
    paint schemes, 2 lengths, 3 different types of destination signs, & at
    least a half-dozen different interior layouts! I'm sure that NYCT has
    at least as many variations among its RTSes, as well!...Michael S.
    Buglak, Collegeville, PA
    
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NEXT>7116
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Chris C 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Free Transfer
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:55 1997
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Posted by Chris C on December 17, 1997 at 16:42:30:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by David Pirmann on December 17,
    1997 at 14:31:47:
    
    Sorry, I don't have the article handy. Perhaps it is bullshit. The
    more I think about it it probobly is.
    I have, however, seen people on this board claim that it is illegal to
    hand off a metrocard for a free transfer. This seems to suggest that
    the cops DO have a way to tie a particular rider to a particular card.
    I'm not sure which is right.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7056
POSTER>Mellow One 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Abandoned Station(Bowtow)
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:57 1997
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Posted by Mellow One on December 17, 1997 at 16:45:51:

   In Reply to: [8]Abandoned Station(Bowtow) posted by John on December
    15, 1997 at 21:36:11:
    
    I know of a Barstow. Never heard of Bowtow.
    
    
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NEXT>7118
PREVIOUS>7003
POSTER>Mellow One 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL
DATE>Dec 28 18:11:58 1997
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Posted by Mellow One on December 17, 1997 at 16:49:02:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL posted by Carl M.
    Rabbin on December 15, 1997 at 12:02:36:
    
    I thought the unfinished 2nd Ave Subway was going to connect with the
    former New Haven Harlem line tracks.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7113
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Free Transfer
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:00 1997
EMAILNOTICES>no
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Posted by David Pirmann on December 17, 1997 at 16:49:17:

   In Reply to: [8]Free Transfer posted by Chris C on December 17, 1997
    at 16:42:30:
    
    I think that's just a policy decision. For instance on a monthly PATH
    quick card it says "Non transferable". Now, there's no way to know if
    I gave it to my friend to use. It's one of those rules where they hope
    people will be honest and abide by it even if it's not technically
    possible to track. Just because they can't prove it via technological
    means doesn't mean they can't make it illegal and hope for the best.
    
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NEXT>7176
PREVIOUS>7100
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: JFK light rail ...more info
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:02 1997
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on December 17, 1997 at 16:49:27:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by John B.
    Bredin on December 17, 1997 at 09:59:25:
    
    As discussed in earlier postings, the source of funding for this
    connection (Airport User Fees) is not permitted to be used to extend
    existing transit systems, which the Congress, in their wisdom,
    considers to be a diversion of user funds.
    
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NEXT>7177
PREVIOUS>7115
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:03 1997
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on December 17, 1997 at 16:53:55:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL posted by Mellow One
    on December 17, 1997 at 16:49:02:
    
    Don't feel bad; I actually thought the Second Ave subway would be
    BUILT.
    
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NEXT>7121
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>WARREN THOMAS 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:05 1997
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Posted by WARREN THOMAS on December 17, 1997 at 17:00:40:

   WHAT A TREMENDOUS JOB THEY ARE DOING ON THE QUEENS LINE BETWEEN 36TH
    STREET
    AND QUEENS PLAZA. ANYBODY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING ON?
    
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NEXT>7152
PREVIOUS>7110
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:07 1997
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 17, 1997 at 17:16:57:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too)
    posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 17, 1997 at 16:41:30:
    
    Is it correct that none of the NYC buses have curtain destination
    signs? Also, I think that NJT used to run Volvo artics. I seem to
    remember a NY Bus Society fantrip in fall 1987 which used an artic
    which I think was a Volvo.
    
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NEXT>7160
PREVIOUS>7119
POSTER>David L. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:08 1997
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Posted by David L. on December 17, 1997 at 17:23:19:

   In Reply to: [7]TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION posted by WARREN THOMAS on
    December 17, 1997 at 17:00:40:
    
    Please do not SCREAM!
    
    They are building a connection from the 21 st/Queensbridge station to
    the Queens Blvd Line.
    
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NEXT>7144
PREVIOUS>7112
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too)
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:10 1997
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 17, 1997 at 17:23:49:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too)
    posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 17, 1997 at 16:41:30:
    
    Well, there are RTS' from 1981 (1201-1658, 2201-2579), 1982
    (1659-1858, 2580-2704), 1983(3001-3325), 1984(3400-3799), 1985
    (3800-4218) 1986 (4300-4599), 1987 (4600-4899), 1990 (8000-8399), 1995
    (8600-8703), 1996 (8750-9249), and 1997 (9250-9349). there are at
    least 4 different interior layouts, and 2 paint schemes, 4 different
    destination signs, although as older buses go through rebuild, they
    get the newest type. Also, the 81 and 82 buses are being rebuilt or
    sold, the rebuilds are getting numbers in the 7500 range.
    Then there are 3 different orders of orions, 1993 (101-317, nee
    93001-93317) 1994 (400-630), 1996 (631-680) 1 sign, 3 seating
    arrangements.
    -Hank
    
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NEXT>7126
PREVIOUS>7091
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Braking
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:12 1997
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 17, 1997 at 17:28:36:

   In Reply to: [8]Braking posted by Timothy Speer on December 17, 1997
    at 09:26:55:
    
    If you understand resistive systems, then regenerative is easy. With
    resistence, the generated power is dissipated in a resistor grid,
    generating a load of heat. In regenerative, the power generated is
    returned to the source, in this case the third rail.
    -Hank
    
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NEXT>7139
PREVIOUS>7105
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:13 1997
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 17, 1997 at 17:46:47:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by
    Joe-M on December 17, 1997 at 13:43:34:
    
    Yes, the private car is always at the head end. Even before the new
    handicapped accessible cab cars started, that train had all stainless
    steel equipment. Wonder why? BTW, are you up in Kenosha?
    
    Seeing the shiny new cab cars with the old dingy Pullit-Stranded
    equipment is somewhat reminiscent of when R32s showed up and they were
    mixed in with 27s.
    
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NEXT>7129
PREVIOUS>7111
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Free Ride
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:15 1997
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 17, 1997 at 17:58:18:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Chris C. on December 15, 1997
    at 10:35:30:
    
    Back in September, I rode with my 2 children from downtown, some local
    stop on the #1, up to TSQ. We walked across town, meandering in
    general, and then decided we wanted to go up to FAO Schwarz, so we
    trundled over to Madison. The time elapsed between exiting through the
    fancy new kiosk at TSQ and reboarding a #1 bus on Madison was probably
    35-45 mins. I swiped the Metrocard and voila, Lauren and I got on free
    and Bryan did not have to pay anyway. I did that expecting to have to
    pay an extra fare (which would still have been cheaper than a
    taxi--besides I got tired of hearing Joe Torre's and Eartha Kitt's
    voices) and was pleasantly surprised when I did not have to. An
    example of revenue lost to the MTA, yes, but instead it builds
    facility with the system so there might be an increase in initial
    fares down the road. What can't be captured, of course, is extra wear
    and tear on the equipment from heavier ridership loads.
    
    Remember the Add-A-Rides? At one point in Manhattan, you could not
    transfer for free from a NYCTA bus to a MaBSTOA route without paying a
    new fare. The add-a-rides helped, I think they cost a quarter.
    
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NEXT>7127
PREVIOUS>7123
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Braking
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:17 1997
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 17, 1997 at 18:33:33:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 17,
    1997 at 17:28:36:
    
    Okay, then why haven't electrically powered trains been using
    regenerative braking all along?
    
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NEXT>7128
PREVIOUS>7126
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Braking
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:19 1997
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Posted by Steve on December 17, 1997 at 18:47:18:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Timothy Speer on December 17,
    1997 at 18:33:33:
    
    The technology is not as simple as you might think. The regeneration
    causes interference with signals and communication. The TA has
    experimented with it in the past. In fact, I heard that at one time a
    pair of R-32s were fitted with flywheels to capture energy created
    during braking and then used it to help during accelleration.
    
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NEXT>7131
PREVIOUS>7127
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Braking
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:20 1997
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 17, 1997 at 18:59:51:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Steve on December 17, 1997 at
    18:47:18:
    
    I've heard of the flywheels on the R-32's. Does anyone know if the
    newer Red Line cars in Boston (Bombardier series 01800-01885) use
    regenerative braking? Will the new NYC cars use it?
    
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NEXT>7185
PREVIOUS>7125
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Free Ride
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:22 1997
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Posted by Steve on December 17, 1997 at 19:06:46:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Free Ride posted by David Pirmann on December 17,
    1997 at 14:31:47:
    
    As I understand the "free transfer" system, one metrocard can be
    swiped for up to 4 people and then 'dipped' once on a bus to get the
    four transfers. That would seem to be legal and acceptable. All the
    rest of this seems to be just so much CAH CAH.
    
    On the other-hand, the MTA gives me a pass similar to the metro-card.
    It works the same way as the regular metro-card except that it can
    only be used once at a given station within a 6 minute time span. This
    is to discourage me from using it for friends or family. A simple
    change in programming can do the same for the metro-card if abuses get
    out of hand. It's like the IRS. The taxman may look the other way if
    you find a loophole but see what they do to you when you write a book
    and sell the secret.
    
    If Chris or someone else has found a way to beat the system, go for
    it. The really stupid thing is to brag about it and let everyone know
    how to do it. Talk about killing the goose that lays the golden egg.
    
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NEXT>7151
PREVIOUS>7099
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: To one and all....
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:24 1997
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Posted by Steve on December 17, 1997 at 19:13:52:

   In Reply to: [8]To one and all.... posted by Lou from Middletown on
    December 17, 1997 at 09:30:42:
    
    I'd like to add my unofficial TA greetings to all on this site, and
    especially Dave, who has created this wonderful forum. One thing
    though,
    may you always find your controllers in Parallel (not series), green
    lights as far as you can see and may you never be going 50 MPH and see
    headlights coming towards you on the same track
    
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NEXT>7150
PREVIOUS>7128
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Braking
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:26 1997
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Posted by David Pirmann on December 17, 1997 at 19:30:23:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Steve on December 17, 1997 at
    18:47:18:
    
    Yes, at least 2 R32's had flywheels installed (3700 and 3701). It was
    done at some shop in California. Steve Hoskins was lucky enough to
    spot them out there. [9][LINK]R32 3700 in San Bernardino California.
    
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NEXT>7146
PREVIOUS>7090
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:28 1997
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Posted by Eric B on December 17, 1997 at 19:37:22:

   In Reply to: [7]Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Timothy on
    December 16, 1997 at 03:09:59:
    
    Simon & Garfunkel's popular "Sound of Silence": "The words of a
    prophet are written on a subway wall..."
    
    Rapper Doug E Fresh's 1985 hit "the Show" , Slick Rick says "stepped
    on the D train at 205th...", and then Salt& Pepper, in therir debut
    single "Showstoppers", a sort of dissing response to "The Show" refers
    to Rick's line, and then Doug E Fresh's producers released their own
    spoof of the rap hit "No Show", where one of the rappers says "he
    stepped on the E train at 179..."
    
    The R&B act "D train" (James Williams).
    
    Rapper Dana Dane's late 80's hit "Delancey St" (he even imitates an F
    train conductor saying "step lively", and the door chimes!)
    
    KRS one said in one of his raps that he "sometimes finds himself on
    the #2 train".
    
    
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NEXT>7178
PREVIOUS>7031
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: East River Crossings study
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:31 1997
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Posted by Eric B on December 17, 1997 at 19:49:42:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: East River Crossings study posted by Andrew Huie
    on December 15, 1997 at 22:41:22:
    
    The purpose of extending the E back to Brooklyn was an alternative to
    the idea of lengthening line C trains. The E runs more trains, as well
    as longer ones (10 cars instead of the C's 8), and therefore holds
    more people. The idea is to make up for lost Manh.Br. capacity on the
    other crossings.
    The chosen alternative, MBA5, does not include this switch, so it will
    not be implemented.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>6994
POSTER>Shunya Togashi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: OPTO on G line? OPTO in Chicago
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:32 1997
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Posted by Shunya Togashi on December 17, 1997 at 20:10:09:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: OPTO on G line? OPTO in Chicago posted by John B.
    Bredin on December 15, 1997 at 10:13:12:
    
    i was on the culver line at smith 9th today takin photo's when i saw a
    sign that said "Opto S" next to the 10. is opto being really
    considered??
    shunya
    
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NEXT>7161
PREVIOUS>7049
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Does anyone knows when "F" express service in Brooklyn will ever be
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:34 1997
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: Does anyone knows when "F" express service in
    Brooklyn will ever be restored. posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December
    16, 1997 at 09:40:54:
    
    how about having the G train originate at church ave. and have some F
    trains go local while others go express?? might be a little
    complicated but it might imporove some service(might help for people
    who hate walking stairs). i was down on the culver line today and when
    it is north of Chruch going local it is like a slug....
    Shunya
    
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NEXT>7143
PREVIOUS>7055
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: B & C trains are switching terminals north of 145th St in the Spring
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:36 1997
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: B & C trains are switching terminals north of
    145th St in the Spring 1998. posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 16,
    1997 at 10:14:12:
    
    Why do most people care?? most people take the train just to get to
    work... does it really matter?? I actually get pissed off when i see
    the "newer cars" (being 68's ,110a+b also all the widecabs). besides
    don't the older cars have more seats and hold more people???
    Shunya
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Put R32 & R40 on the "N" line, R68 & a few R40 on the "Q" line & all R68A
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:38 1997
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   Since "Q" train riders are upset because the new R68A cars are not on
    that line, here is my suggestion for assigning cars out of Coney
    Island Yard, put the R32 & R40 cars on the "N" line, R68 & a few R40
    cars on the "Q" line & all R68A cars on the "B" line. This would
    finally make "Q" train riders happy on getting there R68 Cars back but
    would have to deal with a few R40 cars assigned to the "Q" line & "B"
    riders would continued to have the R68A cars on there line.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7080
POSTER>Mellow One 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Third Rail Electrical Properties
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:40 1997
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Posted by Mellow One on December 17, 1997 at 22:05:54:

   In Reply to: [8]Third Rail Electrical Properties posted by Julio Perez
    on December 15, 1997 at 08:26:20:
    
    Read Middleton's Time of the Trolley or When the Steam Railroads
    Electrified for some good info on AC and DC early railway traction
    developments. Modern Signalling uses carrier waves and other exotic
    technologies. However, I do not believe that a ground level (third
    rail) power distribution system was ever implemented due to the very
    high transmission voltage.
    
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NEXT>7147
PREVIOUS>7124
POSTER>GAR 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:42 1997
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Posted by GAR on December 17, 1997 at 22:07:26:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by
    Charles Fiori on December 17, 1997 at 17:46:47:
    
    F.Y.I. Riding the Evanston Express I was able to see the speedometer
    pegged at 55 mph south of Howard.
    There comes a point on the speed/cost curve where incremental speed
    increases require LOTS of money. In addition the CTA would have to
    make
    major operational changes -- which might not fit rider needs.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>GAR 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>UP north line
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:44 1997
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Posted by GAR on December 17, 1997 at 22:14:35:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by
    Charles Fiori on December 17, 1997 at 12:29:50:
    
    I take the 8:00 am northbound from CPT. It hauls non-stop from
    Clyborne to Davis St. On the other hand the return 4:00 pm from Davis
    is always late....it makes all stops. A conductor told me they were
    able to make up 15-20 minutes on the north-west line out to Crystal
    Lake.
    
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7088
POSTER>GAR 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Unusual Amtrak coach
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:46 1997
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Posted by GAR on December 17, 1997 at 22:17:34:

   In Reply to: [7]Unusual Amtrak coach posted by Timothy Speer on
    December 17, 1997 at 08:35:28:
    
    
    Beech Grove is the name of the Amtrak shops in Indiana....Its an
    executive
    car.
    
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NEXT>7159
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Put R32 & R40 on the "N" line, R68 & a few R40 on the "Q" line & all
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:49 1997
EMAILNOTICES>no
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   In Reply to: [8]Put R32 & R40 on the "N" line, R68 & a few R40 on the
    "Q" line & all R68A cars on the "B" line. posted by Mike on December
    17, 1997 at 20:46:35:
    
    If the R-68As and R-40s were moved on a whim I'd agree with you.
    However, the R-40s were put onto the Q line for a very sound
    logistical reason. Simply put, to provide better, more reliable
    service. By putting the R-40s on the Q line, two things are
    accomplished:
    First - Using the R-40s on the Q line permits the entire R-40 fleet to
    lay up at night and on the weekends. The cars can then get additional,
    required maintenance which they could bot get running on the B line.
    Second - Using the R-40 on the Q line actually speeds up service by
    decreasing station dwell time. Using 10 60-foot cars gives 8
    additional door openings at every station - speeding passenger loading
    and unloading.
    Finally, with your plan, the people on the N line would lose the 75'
    cars. What do you do when they start to yell?
    
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NEXT>7162
PREVIOUS>7136
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: B & C trains are switching terminals north of 145th St in the Spring
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:51 1997
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: B & C trains are switching terminals north of
    145th St in the Spring 1998. posted by Shunya Togashi on December 17,
    1997 at 20:35:32:
    
    In general people protest change for two reasons.
    First - they hate change especially if they don't see the whys and
    wherefore of the change.
    Second - the railfans seem to feel that the only reasons to make
    changes are for railfan reasons.
    
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NEXT>7166
PREVIOUS>7122
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too)
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:53 1997
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Posted by Bobw on December 17, 1997 at 22:49:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too)
    posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 17, 1997 at 16:41:30:
    
    I believe you are correct that SEPTA had, at one time, more Neoplans
    on the property than any other transit agency. LA may have surpassed
    SEPTA lately.
    
    If you count 3200, which has a different sort of electronic front sign
    which displays two-line messages (it appears to be similar to that
    used on NJT's RTS's), then the Neoplans have 4 varieties of signs. The
    bigger ones installed on 3440-49 with separated route number and
    message have been modified so that the route number portion either
    displays nothing or a large zero. I had heard that some Neoplans were
    going to get the bigger signs such as the ones on the Ikaruses but I
    haven't seen one yet.
    
    The Volvo artics also have two different types of signs. 7048 has the
    larger letter display similar to the 3000-series Neoplans.
    
    NJT, to the best of my knowledge, is still operating its Volvo artics.
    It had two different configurations - a three-door transit and a
    two-door suburban. These were numbered in two different groups in the
    9000 series.
    
    I do not believe any current NYCT bus was delivered with curtain
    signs. Also, the numbers given for the original Orions do not add up -
    I believe the numbers all increased by 100 when the buses were
    renumbered from the 93000 group. Was there some reason why the buses
    received such a high number? Was NYCT trying to correspond year of
    delivery with fleet numbers?
    
    An outfit called AGS in Camden, NJ has been amassing retired NYCT
    RTS's, I would assume for resale, since last spring. The yard is
    adjacent to US 30 (Adm. Wilson Blvd.) just west of the Airport Circle.
    There have not been many of these buses there since Thanksgiving.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7067
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music (My Findings, So Far)
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:55 1997
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Posted by Bobw on December 17, 1997 at 22:55:38:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music (My Findings, So Far)
    posted by Timothy on December 16, 1997 at 12:54:10:
    
    Don't ask me who wrote or sung it, but "you can't get to heaven on the
    Frankford El, 'cause the Frankford El only goes to Frankford"... Very
    popular in the early 60's. At least here in Phila.
    
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NEXT>7155
PREVIOUS>7132
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music
DATE>Dec 28 18:12:57 1997
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Posted by Bobw on December 17, 1997 at 22:57:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Charles Fiori
    on December 16, 1997 at 08:25:41:
    
    Was that the EE that Linda Ronstadt was singing about? I had always
    heard the song that way but I also assumed that the reference was to
    something else. That would explain it, since that was about the time
    the EE stopped running...
    
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NEXT>7148
PREVIOUS>7139
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:00 1997
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Posted by Joe M on December 17, 1997 at 23:28:02:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by
    Charles Fiori on December 17, 1997 at 17:46:47:
    
    In Kenosha -- at the end of the line, for now at least.
    
    
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NEXT>7207
PREVIOUS>7147
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:03 1997
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Posted by Joe M on December 17, 1997 at 23:33:48:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by
    GAR on December 17, 1997 at 22:07:26:
    
    A friend of mine at CTA says two things drive track maintenance up
    rappidly, Train Speed and car weight. At least CTA cars are relativly
    light
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7108
POSTER>Joe-M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: WWW.NYCSUBWAY.ORG Newsletter
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:05 1997
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Posted by Joe-M on December 17, 1997 at 23:45:16:

   In Reply to: [7]WWW.NYCSUBWAY.ORG Newsletter posted by David Pirmann -
    Web Site Host on December 17, 1997 at 14:58:59:
    
    
    Keep up the great work. Will try to send things as I find them but not
    many NYC artifacts here in the Midwest. Happy Holidays to all.
    
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NEXT>7153
PREVIOUS>7131
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Braking
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:07 1997
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Posted by Joe M on December 17, 1997 at 23:52:47:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Braking posted by Timothy Speer on December 17,
    1997 at 18:59:51:
    
    
    Dynamic braking does create the heat used to warm the cars so they do
    not need to use resitance heating and saves operating costs. One of
    the best uses of regenrative braking will come on the hybrid buses
    like the ones Nyc is testing.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7130
POSTER>charlie muller 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: To one and all....
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:09 1997
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Posted by charlie muller on December 18, 1997 at 00:31:24:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: To one and all.... posted by Chris C. on December
    17, 1997 at 10:16:12:
    
    may all your lights be green and all your tracks be properly set and
    no trip arms to stop you short. also may you all be able to get a
    train without a full width cab and see out of the head car , as we
    travel the rails into the new year.
    charlie muller.
    
    
    
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NEXT>7167
PREVIOUS>7120
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:10 1997
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 18, 1997 at 03:32:51:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Charles Fiori on
    December 17, 1997 at 17:16:57:
    
    There are no ta buses with rollsigns anymore. Last were the rebuilt GM
    and Flxibles from the early 70's that were finally retired in 1993.
    -Hank
    PS anyone know what happened to them?
    
    
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NEXT>7154
PREVIOUS>7150
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Braking
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:13 1997
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 18, 1997 at 03:37:13:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Joe M on December 17, 1997 at
    23:52:47:
    
    No, they do not provide heat for the cars. Heat for the stations,
    maybe, but not the cars. There are large grids under the car that are
    just large metal coils. The energy is fed into them, and the
    resistence generates enough heat to fry a rat.
    -Hank
    
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NEXT>7156
PREVIOUS>7153
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
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SUBJECT>Re: Braking
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:15 1997
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 18, 1997 at 04:18:29:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 18,
    1997 at 03:37:13:
    
    Dynamic (a/k/a resistive, resistance, etc) braking simply dissipates
    the current generated by the motors as heat, through those coils under
    the train (or above it if it's AC equipment). Those coils also are the
    resistances used for controlling the motor. So they serve a dual
    purpose. You COULD dump the heat into the cars, but that's
    impractical, since you still need a set of resistances under (or
    above) the train for summer opperation. There a a number of ways of
    regulating dynamic brakes, one of which is removing the power to the
    motor / controller, and shorting the input. I think this is how it
    normally works, as opposed to seperate notches, cams, etc on the
    controller under the train. Bare in mind that there are a LOT of
    variations on series parrallel controllers. NY subways from R-1 on
    were either GE PC, Westinghouse "Unit Switch", or a later version of
    the two. BTW, I beileve (and can't spell ;) that both of those are
    pnumatic systems. Modern ones aren't though....
    
    Regen is somewhat more recent, especially in AC equipment. Regen
    doesn't throw off as much heat, because the bulk of the power goes out
    through the rail/catenary. Obviously, some electricity is lost as
    heat. Oh yeah, it's also physically impossible for the system to
    recover 100% of the energy used to start the train rolling...
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7146
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:18 1997
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 18, 1997 at 07:41:15:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Bobw on
    December 17, 1997 at 22:57:24:
    
    Who knows? I doubt Ms. Ronstadt was a subway fan, but it's a cute
    story.
    
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NEXT>7173
PREVIOUS>7154
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
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SUBJECT>Re: Braking
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:20 1997
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 18, 1997 at 08:04:56:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Philip Nasadowski on December
    18, 1997 at 04:18:29:
    
    Okay -- this makes me wonder a couple of things:
    
    1. Can regerative braking work with "old" 600V DC like NYC runs?
    2. Do any modern subways use AC?
    3. Do AC systems need two conductors?
    4. Still looking for an answer to whether the newer Red Line cars in
    Boston (Bombardier series 01800-01885) use regenerative braking...
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
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SUBJECT>Transit Surplus
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:22 1997
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 18, 1997 at 08:41:25:

   Today's (12/18) NY Daily News has an article highlighting service
    increases to accomodate increased ridership. www.mostnewyork.com
    
    As usual, the Straphangers Campaign says "Yea, but..."
    
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NEXT>7163
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mike Rothenberg 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Manhattan Bridge Problems-Questions,Comments,Idea
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:24 1997
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Posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 18, 1997 at 09:16:11:

   Recent postings discussed the Manhattan Bridge problems. A clear
    factual review of the subject would be useful to educate all readers.
    QUESTIONS-(1)What are problems, how to be repaired, when will work
    start & end? (2) When done, will trains use the bridge or will tracks
    be removed? (3) 2 south tracks have been out of use for around 10+
    years. Why not repaired yet? (4)What service is planned for rush hr,
    other weekday, evening, weekend on SeaB,4th Av.,WestE,Britn,Brx,Wash.
    Hts.,Astor.&QnsBl. lines? COMMENTS-(1)Awful bridge diversions occured
    in the '50's,(2)Too bad replacement tun. not built then.2 extra 63St.
    tun.traks a $ waste.IDEA Use surplus $ to build M.B.replacement tun.
    
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NEXT>7245
PREVIOUS>7142
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Put R32 & R40 on the "N" line, R68 & a few R40 on the "Q" line & all
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:26 1997
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   In Reply to: [7]Re: Put R32 & R40 on the "N" line, R68 & a few R40 on
    the "Q" line & all R68A cars on the "B" line. posted by Steve on
    December 17, 1997 at 22:21:22:
    
    I heard that the R40's were put on the Q line to allow the door's to
    be upgraded as well. The new "detect anything bigger than a credit
    card" system to cut down on draggings.
    
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NEXT>7175
PREVIOUS>7121
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:28 1997
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 18, 1997 at 09:39:47:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION posted by David L. on
    December 17, 1997 at 17:23:19:
    
    Opinion inspired by this topic:
    
    Isn't it kind of strange that the connection is east of Queens Plaza?
    We don't know if it's expresses, locals, or both that will go under
    Roosevelt Island. Whichever it turns out to be, that means that some
    people will be on trains that don't easily connect up with the others,
    which seems really a strange way to connect subway lines. I guess that
    MTA's thinking is that not too many people care whether they go on
    53rd, 59th, or 63rd Sts. to get to midtown Manhattan, but it still
    strikes me as a strange way of doing things.
    
    It is similiar to the almost complete lack of rush hour of
    Brighton-to-Bway-via bridge capability when the Chrystie St.
    connection opened(and the absolute lack of it in the reverse direction
    during rush hours). Because Sea Beach Bridge trains skipped Dekalb
    Ave. for about 3.5 hours and QB rush hour specials only ran every 10
    minutes for about 1.5 hours in the main direction mostly, there were
    hours when Brighton people could not get to/from Bway via Bridge
    without backtracking, even though they could see the Sea Beach trains
    pass them right by at DeKalb.(If Atlantic and Pacific had been
    connected tben, it wouldn't have been so bad. Now it is a moot point,
    unfortunately.)
    
    Anyway, this type of odd service -- that the train runs right past you
    but it is almost impossible to connect to that train without going
    miles out of your way -- seems a strange way to run a railroad.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7135
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Does anyone knows when "F" express service in Brooklyn will ever be
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:29 1997
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   In Reply to: [7]Re: Does anyone knows when "F" express service in
    Brooklyn will ever be restored. posted by shunya Togashi on December
    17, 1997 at 20:20:19:
    
    They have tried everything in the 70s, including that, but...
    
    There are too many people in Park Slope and Carroll Gardens and Red
    Hook, and they don't want to 1) wait 10 minutes for a local (or
    express, for that matter) F train, or 2) stand on the steps at Bergen
    St. to see if an express F or a local F arrives first.
    
    If Bergen St. had just been a station with 2 island platforms, so that
    local and expresses could exchange passengers more easily, maybe they
    could get away with it. But the combination of the two problems,
    coupled with the much lighter use south of Church Avenue, makes it
    politically impossible (which is not necessarily bad, since it means
    the will of the people who use it is followed).
    
    Sure I'd like it to be run like our own personal model railroad, but
    this is the one odd case that defies "logic." (I talked to MTA people
    about it when it was first cancelled, and this is the explanation
    given -- no jargon, no excuses, just stories of many complaints to the
    City Council and the Mayor's office back then.)
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7143
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: B & C trains are switching terminals north of 145th St in the Spring
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:32 1997
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   In Reply to: [7]Re: B & C trains are switching terminals north of
    145th St in the Spring 1998. posted by Shunya Togashi on December 17,
    1997 at 20:35:32:
    
    The older SHORTer cars hold more people per train but sit less per
    train.
    The main complaints are the loss of seats IMHO. You can't beat the R40
    from a railfan point of view headend or wide low picture windows.
    If the Q riders are that upset (I'm a daily Q rider), let em take the
    local.
    
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NEXT>7165
PREVIOUS>7158
POSTER>Chris C 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems-Questions,Comments,Idea
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:34 1997
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Posted by Chris C on December 18, 1997 at 11:27:57:

   In Reply to: [7]Manhattan Bridge Problems-Questions,Comments,Idea
    posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 18, 1997 at 09:16:11:
    
    I was under the impression that the two extra 63st tunnel tracks were
    going to be used to connect the LIRR with Grand Central Station. I was
    also under the impression that this would be happening soon. I don't
    know what the deal is with the Manhattan Bridge. The Much needed
    pedestrian walkway has been closed too! We need this stuff up and
    running! A replacement tunnel is a good idea. Maybe this is an
    opportunity to build a multi-level tunnel with more than 1 set of
    tracks and to rethink service along these lines alltogether. There are
    a few spots north of the Manhattan bridge on the Brooklyn side that
    have changed dramatically since these lines were concieved. What were
    once industrial areas have quietly become residential and could use
    more service.
    I think that some kind of express service from Manhattan directly to
    the heart of Brooklyn is in order as well, say; one stop to Atlantic
    Avenue and Flatbush. This would speed along those with longer commutes
    and ease congestion on lines which service the Downtown Brooklyn area.
    
    Just some thoughts.
    
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NEXT>7169
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Williamsburg Bridge
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:37 1997
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 18, 1997 at 12:01:51:

   With all the concerns regarding the future of subway use of the tracks
    on the Manhattan Bridge, I was wondering how the Williamsburg Bridge
    is holding up. I know there were some major problems with the cables a
    few years back. What happened?
    
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NEXT>7200
PREVIOUS>7163
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems-Questions,Comments,Idea
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:38 1997
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on December 18, 1997 at 12:10:19:

   In Reply to: [7]Manhattan Bridge Problems-Questions,Comments,Idea
    posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 18, 1997 at 09:16:11:
    
    The Manhattan Bridge is worn out! It's as simple as that. But the
    solution is subject to political input, which is never simple. The
    tracks on the MB are at the edges of the deck, which twists the
    structure under load. Moving the tracks to the center, and the
    roadways to the edge would be a long term fix, and may be what they
    are planning, which would somewhat justify the long schedule that I
    often hear quoted. This would need to be a series of staged projects
    if auto traffic was to be maintained. Taking trains off the bridge and
    building either or both the Houston st. and/or Grand st. tunnel would
    be ideal, but hellishly expensive.
    
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NEXT>7190
PREVIOUS>7144
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too)
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:40 1997
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on December 18, 1997 at 12:11:29:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too)
    posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 17, 1997 at 17:23:49:
    
    Hank,
    
    You list the first group of NYCT Orions in the 93XXX series. Actually
    most of them had the three digit number from day one. I'm not sure
    where the 93XXX numbers originally, but I know that Casey Stengel
    originally had them as high as 93090 and 200 series up to
    232,291-297,299,300. Kingsbridge had 233-291,298,301-316. As far as I
    can tell the 93XXX were from 93001 to approx. 93095
    
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NEXT>7179
PREVIOUS>7152
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:42 1997
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on December 18, 1997 at 12:17:37:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Charles Fiori on
    December 17, 1997 at 17:16:57:
    
    NJT is still operating their Volvo Articulateds. They bought 110 of
    them which are pretty similar, if not identical to SEPTA's. One
    (#9132) is on a lease to MBTA.
    
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POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Can Somebody tell me again How do you inbed a link to the Forum, I seem to
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:43 1997
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   see subject line
    
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NEXT>7174
PREVIOUS>7164
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Williamsburg Bridge
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:45 1997
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 18, 1997 at 13:22:38:

   In Reply to: [7]Williamsburg Bridge posted by Timothy Speer on
    December 18, 1997 at 12:01:51:
    
    It is my understanding that all subway service will be halted soon for
    bridge repair and replaced with shuttle buses. They are currently
    working daily on the bridge around the train tracks. There was a month
    or two ago arcticles about how trains moved through the work areas
    without the proper precautions (flagman, etc.) and pictures showing
    huge iron beams coming close (inches) to the trains but this could
    just be newspaper hipe as well (or even just a little slant).
    
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POSTER>
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SUBJECT>Re: Can Somebody tell me again How do you inbed a link to the Forum, I seem
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:47 1997
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   In Reply to: [8]Can Somebody tell me again How do you inbed a link to
    the Forum, I seem to have missed that post. posted by sdc-foti on
    December 18, 1997 at 12:46:54:
    
    Any HTML markup in the "Comments" box shows up as HTML markup in your
    post. (Which means if you make a mistake it will display a mistake).
    So anyway, Here's how you do it:
    
    This is a link to yahoo
    
    in a message would show up like this
    
    [9]This is a link to yahoo
    
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NEXT>7194
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Nostalgia Train In Philadelphia?
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:49 1997
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Posted by Timothy on December 18, 1997 at 13:48:51:

   Yesterday, I rode Philadelphia's Broad Street Subway to Fern Rock, and
    I've
    noticed that there is a train of old Broad Street Subway/Delaware
    River
    Bridge (PATCO) cars in the Fern Rock yard. Can anyone tell me if those
    cars are used for nostalgia train excursions? If so, Where can I get
    further information on when they run? Also, when the new M-4 cars go
    into
    service on the Market-Frankford Line, Does SEPTA plan to save any of
    the
    old trains for the transit museum and/or for nostalgia train
    excursions?
    Thanks.
    
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NEXT>7191
PREVIOUS>7020
POSTER>Bill Johnston 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles)
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:51 1997
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Posted by Bill Johnston on December 18, 1997 at 14:18:59:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles) posted by David
    Pirmann on December 15, 1997 at 13:53:17:
    
    I remember one evening rush hour in the late 70's at Philadelphia's
    Suburban Station a small crowd was amazed to see a GG-1 hooked up to
    the head end of a string of Budd MU's. (This was before Septa took
    over from Conrail.) The engine was so long that a supervisor had to
    call back the end of platform signal to the mid-engine cab. The bell
    wasn't working so it gave a couple of short toots from its air-horn
    which just about blew us off the platform.
    I couldn't believe that big behomoth would negotiate the maze of
    turnouts leading up the ramp out of the station towards the Schuykill
    River, but it did.
    That was the last time I saw a GG-1, but I'll never forget it!
    Bill
    
    
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NEXT>7184
PREVIOUS>7156
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Braking
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:53 1997
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 18, 1997 at 15:04:53:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Timothy Speer on December 18,
    1997 at 08:04:56:
    
    1) It sure can work with 600V DC. Actually, it should be easier to do
    it with DC than AC, as you don't have to worry about phase
    differences.
    
    2) To my knowlage, no. Any system that is third rail is ALWAYS DC.
    Some Subway / transit systems use catenary, and switch between it and
    third rail, but it's just 600V DC too. Except for Metro North's New
    Haven line. It's 750 DC third rail, and about 17K ac overhead. I think
    it's the only system in the country that's AC-DC...
    
    3) No. Proper grounding of the rails/signal systems makes them safe to
    use as return conductors. The whole NEC is AC, between 11k 25hz AC and
    17k 60Hz AC, I don't think Bamtrak runs 25k yet.
    
    4) I don't know, it depends on the controller. If it's a GE camshaft
    (I think they are), then it doesn't. If it's some sort of solid state
    job, thenm they might.
    
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NEXT>7189
PREVIOUS>7169
POSTER>Danny 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Williamsburg Bridge
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:54 1997
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Posted by Danny on December 18, 1997 at 15:49:04:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Williamsburg Bridge posted by Lou from Brooklyn on
    December 18, 1997 at 13:22:38:
    
    My train of thought is this:
    
    My guess is that they probably won't shut down the bridge until the
    63rd Street connection is complete... If they do it before, then you
    will witness congestion on Queens Blvd. like you have never witnessed
    before. Besides, I would ride the A, C, E, F, or L trains into
    Manhattan... I couldn't imagine how it would be like to get off at
    Marcy, go across the bridge, and get back on the subway at Delancy and
    Essex... Can you say HEADACHE!
    
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NEXT>7196
PREVIOUS>7160
POSTER>Danny 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:56 1997
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Posted by Danny on December 18, 1997 at 15:56:52:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION posted by Carl M.
    Rabbin on December 18, 1997 at 09:39:47:
    
    Same ideas!
    
    I expected the connection to come onto the E & F lines between Ely
    Avenue and Queens Plaza... Then I began to think: Maybe the location
    of the 21st Street/Queensbridge station prevents it from connecting...
    Can somebody correct me, but is the station located at 21st Street &
    39th Avenue?
    
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NEXT>7183
PREVIOUS>7117
POSTER>Danny 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: JFK light rail ...more info
DATE>Dec 28 18:13:58 1997
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Posted by Danny on December 18, 1997 at 16:05:08:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by Charles
    Fiori on December 17, 1997 at 09:59:30:
    
    If that's the case, then major renovation must take place at the
    Howard Beach station... Using the old ROW of the Rockaway Branch is
    not a bad idea, but it seems like it would take forever to reach
    Jamaica (isn't the shortest way between two points is a straight
    line?)
    
    Mental note: If this LR uses the Rockaway ROW, and switches to the
    tracks at Glendale, what happens to the service between LIC and
    Jamaica via Fresh Pond?
    
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NEXT>7204
PREVIOUS>7118
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:00 1997
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 18, 1997 at 16:14:27:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL posted by Mellow One
    on December 17, 1997 at 16:49:02:
    
    Correct... The former New York Central Harlem Line tracks run
    extremely close to 3rd and Webster Avenues in the Bronx. That would be
    the replacement for the Bronx part of the 3rd Avenue line, either the
    actual tracks or a parallel system on the Right of way. I guess I
    didn't say it quite that way.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7133
POSTER>Danny 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: East River Crossings study
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:01 1997
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Posted by Danny on December 18, 1997 at 16:15:43:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: East River Crossings study posted by Eric B on
    December 17, 1997 at 19:49:42:
    
    Wait a minute...
    
    They are considering to enlongate the E (again) back into Rockaway...
    WHY? I think there will be delays in the service, since the trip takes
    you from Jamaica, through Queens, into Manhattan, into Brooklyn, and
    then into Queens again?! Holy long trip...
    
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NEXT>7180
PREVIOUS>7167
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:03 1997
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Posted by Bootsy on December 18, 1997 at 16:21:14:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Wayne Johnson on
    December 17, 1997 at 16:11:07:
    
    Are they going to be like the MC9s used by NJ Transit and independent
    Jersey-New York bus lines?
    
    
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NEXT>7182
PREVIOUS>7179
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:05 1997
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Posted by Bootsy on December 18, 1997 at 16:29:42:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Wayne Johnson on
    December 18, 1997 at 12:17:37:
    
    NJT still uses them, but almost all of them are assigned to the #13
    and #39.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Michael S. Buglak 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>NYCT & SEPTA Buses-Thanks For All Your Help!
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:07 1997
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Posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 18, 1997 at 16:54:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too)
    posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 17, 1997 at 17:23:49:
    
    Thanks for all your responses to my original post! Since now I have a
    NYCT bus fleet roster, I'd like to provide SEPTA's version:
    
    Bus # Yr/Make Comments
    1301-1325 84 Neoplan 35-Foot
    3000-3131 86 Neoplan Sometimes listed as '87 models
    3132-3371 87 Neoplan " " " " '88 "
    3372-3491 89 Neoplan
    4458-4470 80 GMC RTS 35-Foot, all Retired by 1997
    5001-5400 96-97 Ikarus 102" Wide
    7001-7050 84 Volvo 60-Foot Articulated
    8000-8284 80 GMC RTS Retired In 1997 (if not sooner)
    8285-8434 82 Neoplan " " " " " "
    8435-8584 83 Neoplan " " " " " "
    8590 85 Volvo 102" Wide
    8601-8725 84 Neoplan Bus 8725 retired in 1994, fire damage
    8726-8875 85 Neoplan
    
    All SEPTA buses except for #5001-#5400 & #8590 are 96" wide. All are
    40-foot if not otherwise noted above.
    A happy holiday season to all!
    Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
    
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NEXT>7187
PREVIOUS>7180
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:09 1997
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on December 18, 1997 at 17:02:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Bootsy on
    December 18, 1997 at 16:21:14:
    
    I'm not sure what type they'll be. My guess is that they will be the
    current style 102C3, w/o restrooms. I don't think the TA was ever
    interested in buying over the road coaches, but the competition
    between Staten Island and Manhattan are using them. The MC9 has gone
    out of production. At one point (late 80's) MCI had actually started
    up MC9 production again, but I don't know if the "Jersey Cruiser"
    style MC9's had resumed production. In 1992 MCI had also introduced
    the MC12 (exclusively for Greyhound) which had they combined the
    workhorse quality/reliability of the MC9 and later features from the
    96A, 102A,C models. If you don't know - they are nearly indentical to
    MC9, but the front cap (at the roof) is a bit more rounded, it has
    square headlights and taillights.
    
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NEXT>7259
PREVIOUS>7176
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: JFK light rail ...more info
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:10 1997
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on December 18, 1997 at 17:35:27:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by Danny on
    December 18, 1997 at 16:05:08:
    
    The article I quoted shows the line splitting at Federal circle, one
    going to Howard Beach, the other via Van Wyck Expw'y median to Archer
    Ave.
    
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NEXT>7186
PREVIOUS>7173
POSTER>a.pardi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Braking
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:12 1997
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Posted by a.pardi on December 18, 1997 at 17:44:05:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Steve on December 17, 1997 at
    18:47:18:
    
    Currently there is an 8 car consist of r-38 cars testing ac traction
    motors with regenerating brake system on the "c" line. I guess the
    system is testing a prototype of what the future order of subway cars
    will be equiped with. I remember having to lay up these cars from 168
    st terminal this summer to 207 st yard. As usual the motors had a high
    pitch when when operating and the braking was pretty optimal for me
    smooth and concise..
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7129
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Free Ride
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:14 1997
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on December 18, 1997 at 17:48:28:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Free Ride posted by Mike K on December 15, 1997 at
    08:16:28:
    
    How the lack of a POP is handled by the MTA cops depends a lot on how
    the person accepts the cop's request for proof. Many times the cops
    simply let the person get off at the next stop and buy the POP. If the
    person gives the cop a hard time, presto! instant $500.00 citiation.
    See you in court!
    
    The MTA force is very courteous and treats the passengers as cutomers.
    I ride the LR quite often and may trips are checkless since the MTA
    has a random check policy. Fare evasion on the LR is only a tiny
    fraction of total passengers - MTA has one of the best fare averages
    in the country, over 96%!
    
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NEXT>7188
PREVIOUS>7184
POSTER>a. pardi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Braking
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:15 1997
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Posted by a. pardi on December 18, 1997 at 17:50:11:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Joe M on December 17, 1997 at
    23:52:47:
    
    the dynamic braking in use now does not heat the car interior however
    the heat generated by the grids is emited into the tunnels along with
    heat expelled from friction braking plus a/c condensors under cars
    creating sweltering conditions in the summer time. I remember aroun 12
    years ago pulling into timesquare on the number 2 a number 1 train of
    r 21/22 or r15 cars one car was being hosed dwon by the fire dept the
    cars was completely gutted..
    
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NEXT>7192
PREVIOUS>7182
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:17 1997
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 18, 1997 at 17:51:56:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Wayne Johnson on
    December 18, 1997 at 17:02:47:
    
    What did the TA have when they had such coaches on the Staten Island
    express lines some years ago? I remember hearing that each driver
    became personally responsible for a single bus, pride in appearance,
    etc.
    
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NEXT>7197
PREVIOUS>7186
POSTER>A.pardi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Braking
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:19 1997
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Posted by A.pardi on December 18, 1997 at 18:04:49:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Philip Nasadowski on December
    18, 1997 at 15:04:53:
    
    the dynamic braking grids under the subway cars serve two purpose for
    braking to dissipate energy created from braking as heat. during
    acceleration the switching position maximum resistors with all four
    traction motors in series (not a running position) series
    position(running position) resistors cut out (can't remember if any
    resistors involved sorry!) and parallel no resistors and motors in
    parallel position maximum speed
    
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NEXT>7249
PREVIOUS>7174
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Williamsburg Bridge
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:20 1997
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Posted by Eric B on December 18, 1997 at 20:07:27:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Williamsburg Bridge posted by Danny on December
    18, 1997 at 15:49:04:
    
    Officials tell me that it wiil be in 1999 for 5 months. It would be a
    great time to test the K/L skip-stop they proposed a few years ago.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7166
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too)
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:23 1997
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Posted by Eric B on December 18, 1997 at 20:23:37:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet(& Philly's SEPTA, too)
    posted by Bobw on December 17, 1997 at 22:49:30:
    
    The TA tried to switch to 5 digit numbers to avoid reusing numbers, so
    that retired buses could remain on the computer. For what reason, i do
    not know. Fortunately, the idea was soon abandoned.
    
    
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NEXT>7209
PREVIOUS>7172
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles)
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:25 1997
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Posted by Bobw on December 18, 1997 at 20:33:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles) posted by Bill
    Johnston on December 18, 1997 at 14:18:59:
    
    This happened quite often, especially during PTC strikes when extra
    trains would be run on the PRR/PC suburban lines. Trains of P-70's
    would be pulled by GG's from Suburban Station to whichever line.
    
    Also, during the '64-'65 World's Fair, many trains originated at
    Suburban with across-the-platform transfer at Penn Station for a joint
    PRR/LIRR run from Center City Phila to the Fair. I recall doing this
    when I was 7 years old. These trains were pulled by GG's. That was my
    first (and only) ride on an LI bilevel. I also recall the trip back,
    when the old LI cars were delayed and we had to run through Penn
    Station to make the PRR connection, which for some reason wasn't
    across the platform.
    
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NEXT>7216
PREVIOUS>7187
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:26 1997
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Posted by Bobw on December 18, 1997 at 20:39:06:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Charles Fiori on
    December 18, 1997 at 17:51:56:
    
    Those were leased Greyhounds and I believe were MC-8's. ?
    
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NEXT>7271
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mike 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>What lines does NYCT plan to assign the R142 & R143 to.
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:28 1997
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Posted by Mike on December 18, 1997 at 20:47:32:

   If anyone knows on what lines NYCT plans to asign the R142 & R143 cars
    to & how many will each line will get & what seroel numbers will be
    used on the R142 & R143 cars. Please post it.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7171
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Nostalgia Train In Philadelphia?
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:30 1997
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Posted by Bobw on December 18, 1997 at 20:49:51:

   In Reply to: [8]Nostalgia Train In Philadelphia? posted by Timothy on
    December 18, 1997 at 13:48:51:
    
    SEPTA is not a good organization for retention of old equipment! The
    cars at Fern Rock are 1 (1928, original Broad St stock, also known as
    North Broad cars), 166 (1938, purchased for extension to Snyder Ave,
    known as South Broad Cars), and 1024 (I believe) (1936, Bridge Line,
    purchased by SEPTA for Broad St service in 1970 when PATCO retired the
    cars). These have run on occasional fan trips. Check with SEPTA's
    subway-el office on how to charter. There are a couple of other old
    cars in the yard which, I believe, are used for work service.
    
    I have heard that a few trains of Budds will be kept for the El as
    backups in case the M-4's go haywire or don't provide the adequate
    level of service. This happened both on the Broad St Subway and the
    subway-surface lines when new cars arrived there. The NY Division
    newsletter has stated from "a source" that all the Budds will be
    retired. I have heard that this is not true for the above reasons.
    Also, since there are a few original El cars still in work service, it
    would make sense that these could be retired and replaced by Budds.
    The Budds are difficult to maintain and, at 37 years of age, are
    tempermental. The slow delivery of M-4's and the iffy reliability so
    far seems to indicate that we're going to see the Budds around for
    quite a while.
    
    I would hesitate to guess, however, given SEPTA's track record, that
    if a two-car train of Budds is saved for museum purposes, we stand to
    be lucky. I still cannot believe that a property that inherited 1000
    GM old-look 40' buses did not save even one. Although I was young when
    the "green hornets" were buzzing about the streets in the late 50's
    and early 60's, they were everywhere you looked. Many people my age
    who grew up in Phila will clearly associate bus transit with these
    vehicles, even moreso than the New Looks which were not that common by
    comparison. Sadly, SEPTA managed to save not a one.
    
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NEXT>7201
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mike 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>SEPTA electronic desination reading list.
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:32 1997
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Posted by Mike on December 18, 1997 at 20:49:56:

   If anyone out there has SEPTA's electronic desination reading list,
    please let me know & post it.
    
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NEXT>7208
PREVIOUS>7175
POSTER>Larry Littlefield 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:34 1997
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Posted by Larry Littlefield on December 18, 1997 at 21:12:00:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION posted by Danny on
    December 18, 1997 at 15:56:52:
    
    They connected to the local track east of Queens Plaza because it was
    the cheapest thing they could do -- in "only" cost $700 million
    dollars. If that is what it really costs to build subway connections
    today, we're dead. The Nassau Loop, considered wildly expensive at the
    time, was only $10 million dollars -- $100 million in today's money. I
    wish I knew what Christe Street cost, so I could put it in todays'
    dollars also. I'll be it wasn't $700 million. Can any body tell me why
    these connections cost so much?
    
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NEXT>7213
PREVIOUS>7188
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Braking
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:36 1997
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 18, 1997 at 21:25:45:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by A.pardi on December 18, 1997 at
    18:04:49:
    
    It's not that simple. Even though there are 3 notches on the
    controller, there are, in reality, a lot more than that (more like 10
    or so). The intermediate notches are obtained by the magic of the
    camshaft controller under the car (if you saw Metro North's open
    house, you probbly saw the demo of it...). Placeing the controller in
    parrallel causes the camshaft to go through the notches, stopping at
    full parrallel. The reason it goes notch by notch is to limit the
    current the motors draw. It starts st a low notch, and advances every
    tim,e the current drops to a certain point. This is why the T/O can
    put the train in Full Parrallel, and the substations don't blow up.
    The Series notch simply prevents the controller from going past Full
    Series. Switching keeps the thing in the first notch. The camshaft
    device under the car does all the work, leaving the T/O to simply
    "tell" the system which notch to stop acellerating at.
    
    The reason why the system was developed was probbably to prevent
    overloads, and also because notches with resistances aren't really
    intended as "running positions". In other words, they can't take a
    long amount of high current, or they'll overheat. Also, the controller
    doesn't actuallly switch in and out resistances. Instead, it has an
    intial resistance, to which it simply parrallels more (equal in value
    to the inital and each other) resistances in. This has the effect of
    dropping the resistance. The "Full" positions simply short the
    resistance out. This allows for smooth acelleration, without cutting
    out the power at any point.
    
    Anyone else have anything to add????
    
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NEXT>7199
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>East River Crossing: line by line
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:39 1997
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Posted by Eric B on December 18, 1997 at 21:53:00:

   Post gone after 3 days? Gee whiz!
    Anyway, sorry that some people complained of being confused. I had
    limited time and an unstable hookup to worry about.
    As for Subway Buff's request for a link or posting the charts, I did
    not get the information from the Web. NYMTC has a post, which I
    briefly glanced through, but I don't think those tables were on there.
    
    [7]You can check for yourself.
    I wish I could scan the 16 tables and post them, but i do not have
    access to a scanner now, and do not know how to post a scanned
    document to this board.
    
    So let me try again another way.
    
    MBA2 Main components: DeKalb-Rutgers connect with Nostrand Junction.
    MBA5- Main components: DeKalb-Rutgers conn, Bleecker St n/b transfer
    MBA8 --Nostand Junction, without Rutgers.
    TSM (Transportation Service Management)--Low cost options, including
    Bway-Laf transfer.
    
    All options include Lengthening line 3 trains, and Lawrence-Jay
    transfer.
    No Build--projects that were dropped from this study because they are
    alreaby being implemented under other programs, such as the Franklin
    Av shuttle reconstruction.
    
    Bridge scenarios:
    -C: fully closed; -S: H(Bway) side open only; -N: AB(6th Av) side only
    open; -O: fully open.
    
    A, C, E: Under MBA2, 8 and TSM, a south terminal switch that sends the
    E express to the Rockaways to use additional Cranberry St tunnel
    capacity.
    Since MBA5, which does not include this option was chosen over the
    others, everyone can STOP WORRYING ABOUT IT!
    
    B: During all N and O scenarios, it runs normal to 168 (Eve&wknd
    service is not listed on the charts) In all C scenarios, it runs to
    Pacific, even with Rutgers open. In all S scenarios it runs to Astoria
    via bridge. In MBA2&5-C&S, 168-34th st service operates, as well, but
    there is no 6Av service in MBA8&TSM -Cand -S plans. It is not
    mentioned what would make the local stops to 168th in these plans
    
    D: in all N and O plans, runs normal. In MBA2&5-C, it is split,
    running via Tunnel to Astoria. In all S scenarios, it runs via Bridge
    to 57th. In TSM&MBA8-C, there is no service at all in Brooklyn, only
    205th-34th.
    
    FV: TSM-C only. It runs with the F to the same terminal, but diverges
    via 63rd St instead of 53rd. Both lines run 14tph, and there is still
    no express on the Culver.
    
    M: in all C scenarios, to Chambers, even with Rutgers. Runs to Bay
    Pkwy, 95th St or CI in various plans, and even to CI va Brighton in
    MBA5-N&O.
    
    N: All C scenarios, and N&O without Rutgers, the same local service to
    Astoria.
    To 57th via Bridge MBA2&5-S.
    Express to Astoria: All O scenarios.
    The most interesting: MBA2&5-N: to 168th via AB, even while the B is
    still running there.
    
    Q: All Rutgers plans: via Rutgers, 6av local& 63rd St to 179th. N and
    O scenarios without Rutgers: via AB and exp., to 63rd/179th.
    MBA8&TSM-S: via H to 57th.
    TSM-C: 12tph from CI through Montague& exp to 57th.
    Plus, "QS" 7tph from Brighton Beach to Franklin. No express in Bklyn.
    MBA8-C drops QS; 12tph Q runs by itself on Brighton and extends
    through the Bway-63rd connection to 179th, replacing FV (the only use
    of this connection in the plans) It is not listed what would stop at
    57th/6th Av in this plan. (In both closed scenarios, the N & R run
    8tph for a total of 28 peak trains through Montague)
    
    R: unnaffected.
    S: All S and C plans: Grand-Bway-Laf.
    
    T: TSM&MBA8-O only: Bway-West End Exp to 57th, even while B is
    running. 8tph, uses H track capacity since Q is never returned to Bway
    in the fully open scenarios. I wish they would use it to replace B in
    the S and C scenarios.
    
    V: TSM&MBA8-S only. 179th-34th. I wish they would use it for all the
    63rd/Rutgers plans, to replace the Q which should be used for
    Broadway.
    See also FV, above
    
    W: MBA2&5-N: Astoria-Whitehall, when N goes to 168th. I wish they
    would use it to replace Broadway D.
    
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NEXT>7247
PREVIOUS>7198
POSTER>David Pirmann - Web Site host 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: East River Crossing: line by line
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:41 1997
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Posted by David Pirmann - Web Site host on December 18, 1997 at

   
    In Reply to: [7]East River Crossing: line by line posted by Eric B on
    December 18, 1997 at 21:53:00:
    
    > Post gone after 3 days? Gee whiz!
    
    With over 150 posts in a 3-day period it's either expire them to the
    [8]Archives or get complaints that the page takes too long to load!
    
    No posts are gone. They get moved to the archives immediately after
    being expired from here. Just look thru the Archives with the
    News/Discussion feature of your browser: news://nycsubway.org/subtalk
    
    -Dave
    
    
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NEXT>7329
PREVIOUS>7165
POSTER>Earth Dog 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems-Questions,Comments,Idea
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:43 1997
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Posted by Earth Dog on December 18, 1997 at 22:43:07:

   In Reply to: [7]Manhattan Bridge Problems-Questions,Comments,Idea
    posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 18, 1997 at 09:16:11:
    
    The time may be long at hand to start considering a tunnel replacement
    for the Bridge.
    For starters instead of building a link between De Kalb and the
    Rutgers tube, the following should be done.
    1) Reconfigure the bway-lafayette complex by tying in the fromer
    bridge tracks from Grand Street into the unused connection with the
    link between the Williamsburg Bridge, this would allow 6th Ave Local
    trains to serve Grand St directly. Install a crossover north of Grand
    street to allow trains to use it as a terminal. This should be
    designed to allow the construction of the 2nd ave Subway via Grand St
    in the future. After this is done, the TA should build the lower half
    of the 2nd Ave Line between Whitehall and Grand Street allowing direct
    service from Lower Manhattan via 6th Ave and out via the 63rd St Line
    to Queens. also build a transfer connection between Grand St and the
    nearb
    
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NEXT>7273
PREVIOUS>7195
POSTER>Andrew Byler 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA electronic desination reading list.
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:45 1997
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Posted by Andrew Byler on December 18, 1997 at 23:01:30:

   In Reply to: [8]SEPTA electronic desination reading list. posted by
    Mike on December 18, 1997 at 20:49:56:
    
    Let me answer you with some questions:
    
    For what line(s)?
    
    i.e. Broad Street, Market-Frankford, the Commuter Rail, etc.
    
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NEXT>7221
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet (Jersey Cruisers)
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:46 1997
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Posted by Bootsy on December 18, 1997 at 23:05:26:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Wayne Johnson on
    December 18, 1997 at 17:02:47:
    
    There are two types of Jersey Cruisers, the MC9A (delivered to NJT
    between 1982 and 1984) and the MC9B, 1987 model. Both types are almost
    identical except that the front destinations signs on the MC9A are
    smaller than the MC9B.
    I think that Academy operates between Staten Island and Manhattan, but
    I'm not sure of what equipment they use. Probably either Jersey
    Cruisers or Flxible Suburbans.
    
    
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NEXT>7206
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mellow One 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Brooklyn Bridge Rails
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:48 1997
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Posted by Mellow One on December 18, 1997 at 23:10:22:

   In refernce to the Williamsburg Bridge Query,
    was there a an age problem that caused the Brooklyn El tracks to be
    removed from the Brooklyn Bridge, or, was it just a political
    decision.
    The same applies to the Queenboro Bridge.
    Although the 2nd Ave was old, the bridge work was substantial, and I
    guess it could be used again.
    
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NEXT>7277
PREVIOUS>7177
POSTER>Mellow One 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:50 1997
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Posted by Mellow One on December 18, 1997 at 23:20:18:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL posted by Carl M.
    Rabbin on December 18, 1997 at 16:14:27:
    
    Read my note again, the NYNH&H (New Haven) Halem River line, the line
    that the Hells Gate Bridge (NY Connecting RR) connects with. It was
    also the route of the NYW&B the Bronx part of which became the Dyre
    Ave Line.
    
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NEXT>7220
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Andrew Byler 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>2nd Ave. Line News
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:52 1997
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Posted by Andrew Byler on December 18, 1997 at 23:25:43:

   This is from the latest edition of Railway Gazette International, a
    British railroad trade publication, December 1997 edition, pg. 835:
    
    The Metropolitan Transportation Authority has announced plans to
    complete the unfinished Second Avenue subway, which was started in the
    1970's to replace the Third Avenue elevated line torn down in 1955.
    Construction began on four segments, but the tunnels were abandoned
    when the money ran out.
    With the parallel Lexington Avenue subway now grossly overcrowded at
    peak hours, MTA wants to link two part-built sections into a line from
    125th St. to 63rd St., where it would connect with the underutilized
    BMT Broadway subway. Stations would be built at 70th, 86th, 96th,
    110th, and 125th Streets. The project is costed at around $5 billion,
    and local political leaders have promised their support in finding
    suitable sources of funding.
    
    ---------------------------------------
    
    My comments:
    
    Perhaps there's hope for the world and New York epsecially yet! We'll
    have to see what comes of it, but it does make a nice Christmas
    present from St. Rudy to us subway buffs.
    
    The $5 billion tag seems a bit steep - I hope that is from some
    confusion over the cost of the entire line from the tie in with the
    Dyre Avenue line at 180th St. in the Bronx to Whitehall - otherwise
    its a ripoff. After all, the entire DC system is going to be built for
    about $10-12 billion (for 103 miles). Even the vastly over-expensive
    LA Red Line, at $6 billion for 18 miles, is cheaper than what is being
    quoted here. I think they need some new cost engineers! So why the
    highball - cui bono?
    
    Not surprisingly, MTA seems to be studying the short option mentioned
    above as a first stage to getting some significant new mileage built.
    As has been pointed out before on this site - you heard it here first
    folks! This idea was mentioned several months ago in the Subway in
    2017 thread by one of the readers. If some MTA engineers are getting
    ideas from here - well, keep at it guys - we're trying!
    
    Andy Byler
    
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NEXT>7223
PREVIOUS>7203
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Brooklyn Bridge Rails
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:54 1997
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Posted by Adam on December 18, 1997 at 23:43:15:

   In Reply to: [8]Brooklyn Bridge Rails posted by Mellow One on December
    18, 1997 at 23:10:22:
    
    Were there ever subway tracks on the Queensboro Bridge? If so, how
    long were they there, what trains ran over them, and when were they
    removed? I've never heard about this before so I figured I might ask!
    Thanks!
    
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NEXT>8031
PREVIOUS>7148
POSTER>Andrew Byler 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed?
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:55 1997
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Posted by Andrew Byler on December 18, 1997 at 23:48:31:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Will NYC or Chicago Ever Get High Speed? posted by
    Carl M. Rabbin on December 16, 1997 at 09:48:51:
    
    Actually, as I never tire of pointing out, Philadelphia's Broad Street
    subway is built for 70 mph speeds on the express tracks. The distance
    between stops is similar to the Metro suburban distances you mention -
    Olney to Erie, ~ 2 miles, Erie to Girard ~ 2.5 miles, Girard to Spring
    Garden, ~ 1 mile.
    
    New York has quite a few stretches which should be upgraded to similar
    operating conditions:
    
    1) The 2, 3 from 96th St. to Chambers St.
    2) The 4, 5 from 149th St. in the Bronx to Brooklyn Bridge
    3) The A from 168th St. to 14th St.
    4) The D from Fordham Rd. in the Bronx to West 4th Washington Sq.
    5) The Broadway express tracks when they are returned to service
    6) The E from Jamaica Van Wyck in Queens to 5th Ave.
    7) The B from Grand St. to 9th Ave.
    8) The N from 36th St. to 59th St. (i.e. further down 4th Ave.)
    9) The A from Hoyt-Schermerhorn to Euclid Ave.
    10) The A from Rockaway Blvd. to Beach 80th/Beach 67th.
    11) The 4 from Bowling Green to Utica Ave.
    12) The Q from Atlantic Ave. to Sheepshead Bay
    13) The Dyre Ave. line
    14) The rest of the river tunnels
    
    In otherwords, there are no shortage of possible stretches. The
    question is whether or not high speed operation is economically
    feasible. On some lines with long stretches of possible high speed
    line, such as the 4, 5, A, D, E, F, and Q this is probably a good
    economis move - faster trains means fewer trains needed. The B and N,
    2, and 3 are questionable, because the express stretch is not long
    compared to the whole line.
    
    Andy Byler
    
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NEXT>7212
PREVIOUS>7196
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:57 1997
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Posted by Adam on December 18, 1997 at 23:53:06:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION posted by Larry
    Littlefield on December 18, 1997 at 21:12:00:
    
    I may be able to shed at least some light on why this connection is so
    expensive. Not only is a subway being extended and connected to an
    existing subway, but this is in an area that is already fully
    developed so a lot of utilities are being rerouted, which I'm
    suspecting has greatly increased the cost. Entire sewer systems are
    being ripped up and rerouted along Northern Blvd. I feel that these
    extra things that may not normally be done when connecting subways,
    especially many years ago when things weren't as built up as they are
    now, are contributing to the increased cost.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7191
POSTER>Andre Byler 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles)
DATE>Dec 28 18:14:59 1997
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Posted by Andre Byler on December 18, 1997 at 23:54:18:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Electricity (SEPTA's vehicles) posted by David
    Pirmann on December 15, 1997 at 13:53:17:
    
    Number 4935 sits awaiting the call of duty at the Strasburg, PA's
    Pennsylvania Railroad Museum, with most of her inards intact. All she
    needs is a new transformer to replace the PCB contaminated one which
    was removed (or maybe just drained).
    
    In any case, this has been proposed before. Those interested should
    lobby the Friends of the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum. 4935 sure would
    look great rounding those curves on the Main Line on her way up the
    great broad-way to New York City!
    
    Andy Byler
    
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NEXT>7257
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Update on Breaking the Guinness Record
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:14 1997
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Posted by Adam on December 19, 1997 at 00:06:25:

   Hey Everybody!
    Just a quick note to update y'all on what's going on with our group
    effort to break the Guinness Book of World Records record for shortest
    time riding all the lines of the NYC subway.
    I was thinking of planning a meeting for those interested sometime
    around the end of this month but seeing as there's not that much new
    to report I think we should wait. I'm still waiting on a letter back
    from Guiness about the official records and Freddy is waiting for a
    response back from the TA from a letter that he sent them.
    In the meanwhile, I've heard from a few people about itineraries that
    they have been planning for our derby. At the next meeting we can go
    over all the ideas, maybe try a few out, and get things rolling.
    Hopefully, we'll hear back from the people we've written to in two to
    three weeks and then maybe then around the beginning or middle of
    January we can all meet.
    Hope everybody has a great holiday season and New Year! I'm finally
    done with exams and back from school so I'm planning on spending a lot
    of time during my vacation underground! If anybody has questions or
    anything feel free to post here or e-mail me.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Door Obstruction Mod
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:15 1997
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Posted by Steve on December 19, 1997 at 00:17:28:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Put R32 & R40 on the "N" line, R68 & a few R40 on
    the "Q" line & all R68A cars on the "B" line. posted by Lou from
    Brooklyn on December 18, 1997 at 09:23:01:
    
    The door obstruction modification you are referring to is done in the
    overhaul shop and thus done Mon-Fri between 8AM and 4PM. Moving the
    40s to the Q will not be affected by the mod or vice-versa
    
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NEXT>7239
PREVIOUS>7208
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:17 1997
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Posted by Steve on December 19, 1997 at 00:23:06:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION posted by Carl M.
    Rabbin on December 18, 1997 at 09:39:47:
    
    The 63rd St. connection is being made NORTH of Queens Plaza because
    the idea was to reduce congestion at The Plaza. By reducing congestion
    there (Currently the biggest bottleneck on the Queens Blvd. corridor),
    Queens thru-puts could be increased. If you heard the MTA chairman
    today, increased E & F service is one of the goals that the $167
    million surplus is going to help attain.
    
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NEXT>7215
PREVIOUS>7197
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Braking
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:19 1997
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Posted by Steve on December 19, 1997 at 00:32:44:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Philip Nasadowski on December
    18, 1997 at 21:25:45:
    
    On GE Propulsion, the SCM-1 Cam Controller has 30 positions. It's been
    a long time since I worked on a GE controller but if memory serves me
    correctly, During accelleration the controller starts in position
    20-switching, series has 9 step from 21 to 29 and multiple is (was) 29
    back to 20 with the P1 and P2 contactors picked up. Dynamic braking is
    similar from 16 to 1 and back with the B switch picked up. (highly
    simplified)
    
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NEXT>7230
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Albert 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Help
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:20 1997
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Posted by Albert on December 19, 1997 at 01:19:41:

   I just moved to Yonkers (Exit 3 off of Route 87) and am in need of
    help taking the train into Rockerfeller Center. A "park-n-ride" system
    would suit me well. Is there anything like this where I'm at? Please
    let me know.
    Thanks
    
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NEXT>7244
PREVIOUS>7213
POSTER>Philip nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Braking
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:22 1997
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Posted by Philip nasadowski on December 19, 1997 at 01:38:04:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Steve on December 19, 1997 at
    00:32:44:
    
    Ahhhh..... Do you know If GE has any docs on these things??? This
    sounds like a pretty slick controller :) Oh yeah, do you know what
    controller the LIRR stuff uses (I know it's GE, I'm guessing it's an
    SCM?). Also, they stopped useing Westinghouse Unit Switch after R-
    21/22, right???
    
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NEXT>7222
PREVIOUS>7192
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:24 1997
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 19, 1997 at 03:51:17:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Charles Fiori on
    December 18, 1997 at 17:51:56:
    
    Those were leased coaches from greyhound during the Grumman crisis in
    the early 80's, and although loved by the passengers, they were hated
    by maintainers. For certain repairs, they had to be sent out (terms of
    lease), and you were out a bus. TA wanted to keep them, but was told
    it was impossible to put a center exit door and chair lift on the bus,
    allegedly becase of the lack of a solid frame below the passenger
    compartment floor., due to the luggage compartments....
    -Hank
    
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NEXT>7330
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Fernando Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet-New equipment purchases
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:25 1997
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Posted by Fernando Perez on December 19, 1997 at 07:05:28:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Wayne Johnson on
    December 17, 1997 at 16:11:07:
    
    The MTA board recently approved the purchase of 60 over the road
    coaches from Motor Coach Industries. These buses are 45 feet long and
    have 17 more more soft seats than current equipment. Also they will
    have reclining seats, reading lights and luggage racks. Also approved
    were 10 hybrid buses that combine electric and diesel engines. These
    buses are low floor with no w/c lift using a ramp at the front door.
    
    
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NEXT>7429
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Michael S. Buglak 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses)
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:27 1997
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Posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 19, 1997 at 08:16:15:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Nostalgia Train In Philadelphia? posted by Bobw on
    December 18, 1997 at 20:49:51:
    
    There is at least one SEPTA "Green Hornet" (GM Old-Look) still extant.
    It's parked in a lot in Wilmington, DE next to the NE Corridor line
    about a mile of two N of the Wilmington station on the east side of
    the tracks. It's hard to read the bus number from a train but it looks
    like #3824 or something like that. You can still see the old round
    SEPTA logo. The bus looks like it could be restorable with a lot of
    work!
    Did SEPTA save any of the RTSes when they were retired this past
    summer?
    Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
    
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NEXT>7262
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>New Transit Fares
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:29 1997
EMAILNOTICES>no
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 19, 1997 at 08:38:52:

   2 articles from today's (12/19) NY Post:
    
    [7]"Fare Deal Wins OK, but Minus Rudy's Free Rides" 
    
    AND
    
    [8]"Pataki's Lackeys Railroaded a Dumb Idea" 
    
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NEXT>7234
PREVIOUS>7205
POSTER>Julio Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 2nd Ave. Line News
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:31 1997
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Posted by Julio Perez on December 19, 1997 at 08:47:51:

   In Reply to: [8]2nd Ave. Line News posted by Andrew Byler on December
    18, 1997 at 23:25:43:
    
    I remember back in '73 or so when crossing intersections along 59th
    Street east of the Queensboro Bridge made up of wooden streets
    (instead of steel plates). I suppose that'll be the scene as soon as
    funding is re-identified along the area.
    
    My question: the British journal suggests a connection to the BMT.
    Andrew B. mentioned something about a tie-in @ East 180th Street,
    where A-Division (IRT) cars are used. Will the 2nd Avenue line use
    A-Div or B-Div cars?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7202
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet (Jersey Cruisers)
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:32 1997
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on December 19, 1997 at 09:40:43:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet (Jersey Cruisers) posted
    by Bootsy on December 18, 1997 at 23:05:26:
    
    Academy does operate between Staten Island and Manhattan via NJ in
    both directions. They use their MCI 96A3, 102A3, 102C3 and Prevost
    H3-41 coaches. I've never seen any of their Jersey Cruisers on these
    runs. My guess is that the state of NJ will not allow it since the SI
    - Manhattan routes are just that and do not stop in NJ at all. I'm
    sure you know that these buses were purchased with State funds. I have
    a friend at Academy and they refer to the Jersey Cruisers as the
    "State buses" or "State MC9's".
    
    Academy does not have any Flxible suburbans. They do have some Grumman
    870 which are used for employee shuttles, route 22 and the Airlink
    route between Newark Penn Station and EWR. Many of these Grumman 870's
    are former NYCTA buses.
    
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NEXT>7224
PREVIOUS>7216
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:34 1997
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on December 19, 1997 at 09:45:36:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Bobw on December
    18, 1997 at 20:39:06:
    
    Yes, they were MC-8's.
    
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NEXT>7238
PREVIOUS>7206
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Brooklyn Bridge Rails
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:36 1997
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 19, 1997 at 09:55:07:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Brooklyn Bridge Rails posted by Adam on December
    18, 1997 at 23:43:15:
    
    Streetcars ran over the Queensboro Bridge until the 1950s. Remnants of
    the terminal are still visible on the Manhattan side. But there never
    were subways on the bridge.
    
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NEXT>7260
PREVIOUS>7222
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:37 1997
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 19, 1997 at 09:57:51:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Hank Eisenstein
    on December 19, 1997 at 03:51:17:
    
    The operators didn't like the manual door at the time. Too many
    openings and closings.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Lost in Yonkers
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:39 1997
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 19, 1997 at 10:03:18:

   In Reply to: [7]Help posted by Albert on December 19, 1997 at
    01:19:41:
    
    Isn't there a Metro North station in Yonkers or Mt. Vernon somewhere?
    I bet they have parking.
    
    There must be parking lots with monthly parking around the 242 St. or
    Woodlawn Rd. or Bedford Park Blvd. subway stations.
    
    How about the Central Avenue Bus to Woodlawn Rd?
    
    Surely you could drive to a couple of stations to find out.
    
    Finally, to get to Rockefeller Center, just somehow end up on the D
    train. Or from Metro North lines, take the 6 north one stop and get
    the F train, or the 7 west one stop and get any northbound 6th Ave.
    train. Or get off at 125 St. and take the Lexington from there to 51
    St, then get the F train. (But you probably knew this part.)
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Queensboro Bridge Rails
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:40 1997
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Posted by Ed Sachs on December 19, 1997 at 10:16:38:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Brooklyn Bridge Rails posted by Adam on December
    18, 1997 at 23:43:15:
    
    The upper level of the Queensboro bridge was used by 2nd Ave. El
    trains
    until 1941. Check out [9]Manhattan and Bronx Els - 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 9th
    Aves., 1920.
    
    
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NEXT>7236
PREVIOUS>467
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Queensboro Plaza
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:42 1997
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Posted by Adam on December 19, 1997 at 11:21:17:

   I just found out that there is a major $10 million renovation
    scheduled for Queensboro Plaza. If anybody is interested, there is an
    involved article in the December 17, 1997 edition of the Western
    Queens Gazette that describes the entire planned operation. The
    Western Queens Gazette is a free community-based paper that is
    available in many different stores throughout Queens. The renovation,
    secheduled to begin shortly, may be delayed for about 6 months due to
    the 63rd Street tunnel construction already going on in that same
    area.
    
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NEXT>7280
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Chris C. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subways songs
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:45 1997
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Posted by Chris C. on December 19, 1997 at 11:32:36:

   In Reply to: [7]Subways In Pop/Rock Music posted by Timothy on
    December 16, 1997 at 03:09:59:
    
    I don't know about Linda Ronstadt but Bob Dylan wrote a song called
    "It Takes a Lot to Laugh, It Takes a Train to Cry"
    Among the lyrics:
    
    Don't the breakman look good mama,
    flaggin' down the Double E
    
    There is also a Bob Dylan song called "Visions of Johanna"
    with the words:
    
    And the all-nignt girls they whisper escapades out on the D Train
    
    Also, Duke Ellington's classic "Take The A Train" has lyrics telling
    you to do just that "if you want to go to Harlem".
    
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NEXT>7233
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mike 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>NYCT Bus electronic desination reading list for 1997.
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:47 1997
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Posted by Mike on December 19, 1997 at 11:37:09:

   If anyone out there has a copy of the 1997 NYCT Bus electronic
    desination reading list for all bus lines including future extensions
    of a bus route, new bus route & future limited stop service, please
    post it.
    
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NEXT>7231
PREVIOUS>7214
POSTER>Alan Follett 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Help
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:48 1997
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Posted by Alan Follett on December 19, 1997 at 11:37:39:

   In Reply to: [8]Help posted by Albert on December 19, 1997 at
    01:19:41:
    
    Metro-North's Hudson Line has frequent service between Yonkers and
    Grand Central--a couple of trains an hour through the day, and more in
    rush hours. Take a look at their online schedules at
    http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mnr/html/planning/schedules/schedule.htm.
    Happy commuting!
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7230
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Help
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:50 1997
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on December 19, 1997 at 12:22:34:

   In Reply to: [8]Help posted by Albert on December 19, 1997 at
    01:19:41:
    
    I belive I-87/exit 3 is near Cross County Shopping Center - if so, I
    would recommend taking the Bee Line Express to Manhattan. The route
    number is "BXM4C" and it starts in White Plains and pick up along
    Central Park Ave - the last pickup is at McLean Ave in Yonkers. In
    Manhattan it travels down Fifth Ave and I believe the closest stop to
    Rockefeller Ctr is 50th St. The return trip - It runs along Madison
    Ave - first stop in Yonkers is at McLean Ave.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>OPTO in New York
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:51 1997
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 19, 1997 at 12:39:32:

   Today's Daily News says OPTO will start.
    
    [8]"One Man Trains Pass Test-TA" 
    
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NEXT>7243
PREVIOUS>7229
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYCT Bus electronic desination reading list for 1997.
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:53 1997
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 19, 1997 at 12:49:04:

   In Reply to: [8]NYCT Bus electronic desination reading list for 1997.
    posted by Mike on December 19, 1997 at 11:37:09:
    
    Where were you a few weeks ago? I got a great set of lists via e-mail
    from someone on this site. Can forward if you care.
    
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NEXT>7258
PREVIOUS>7220
POSTER>Andrew Byler 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 2nd Ave. Line News
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:55 1997
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Posted by Andrew Byler on December 19, 1997 at 12:55:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: 2nd Ave. Line News posted by Julio Perez on
    December 19, 1997 at 08:47:51:
    
    It will use B-division cars.
    
    The Second Ave Line in the master plan of 1968 was slated to extend
    from Whitehall St. in lower Manhattan (where provisions for possible
    future extension to Brooklyn, presumably Court St. were to be made) to
    Dyre Ave. in the Bronx. The route in Manahattan was under Second Ave.,
    and would have continued north in the phase three of construction
    (phase one was 125th St. to 34th St., phase two was 34th St. to
    Whitehall St.) under the Harlem River where it would have surfaced
    alongside the Conrail yards near 132nd St. Here it would follow the
    abandoned right of way of the New York Westchester and Boston along
    the west side of Amtrak's Hell Gate line to East 180th in the Bronx,
    where it would use the original Westchester station. It would then
    continue to Dyre Ave. once the Dyre Ave. line had been suitably
    modified for B-division use.
    
    This of course would orphan the number 5 line, which was supposed to
    have been extended up Third Ave. in the Bronx to replace the elevated
    line, now long gone.
    
    Andrew Byler
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Chris C. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: JFK light rail ...I Agree
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:56 1997
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Posted by Chris C. on December 19, 1997 at 14:34:49:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by John B.
    Bredin on December 17, 1997 at 09:59:25:
    
    Right On!
    The cutting down on interfacing is the best and most cost effective
    way to streamline any transportation system. The luggage factor at the
    airports amplifies the problem considerably. There are other elements
    of interfacing which are a major pain. More turnstyles and token
    clerks and cops standing around with nothing to do but watch for
    turnstyle jumpers. All of this stuff costs money that might be better
    spent on a new express subway line directly to JFK which would service
    Brooklyn/Queens and the airports well, rather than just a train that
    services just the airport and does it badly. Layover time in
    transfering is also a pain and not coste effective.
    
    Off the top of my head Atlantic Avenue in Brookly seems like a direct
    rout out to JFK. Part of that strip from Court Street to the river
    already has an unused tunnel. This SUPER TRAIN might run up Ninth Ave.
    Stopping in back of the Port Authority and Penn Station. From there
    perhaps World Trade -- Atlantic and Flatbush in Brooklyn -- and JFK.
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>7237
PREVIOUS>7227
POSTER>Julio Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Queensboro Plaza
DATE>Dec 28 18:15:58 1997
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Posted by Julio Perez on December 19, 1997 at 15:37:56:

   In Reply to: [8]Queensboro Plaza posted by Adam on December 19, 1997
    at 11:21:17:
    
    Is the mentioned article available in electronic format somewhere?
    
    I'm curious to see what's involved in the renovation, but I live a
    little south of Queens--about 1,400 miles away--to receive the Western
    Queens Gazette.
    
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NEXT>7240
PREVIOUS>7236
POSTER>Julio Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Queensboro Plaza
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:00 1997
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Posted by Julio Perez on December 19, 1997 at 15:40:44:

   In Reply to: [8]Queensboro Plaza posted by Adam on December 19, 1997
    at 11:21:17:
    
    Is the mentioned article available in electronic format somewhere?
    
    I'm curious to see what's involved in the renovation, but I live a
    little south of Queens--about 1,400 miles away--to receive the Western
    Queens Gazette.
    
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NEXT>7251
PREVIOUS>7223
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Brooklyn Bridge Rails
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:02 1997
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 19, 1997 at 16:01:56:

   In Reply to: [7]Brooklyn Bridge Rails posted by Mellow One on December
    18, 1997 at 23:10:22:
    
    The trolley and elevated train tracks were removed from the Brooklyn
    Bridge a very long time ago, mainly so that cars could fit on the
    bridge. Once the IND Fulton Street and Crosstown lines were built, it
    did not seem useful to have a bunch of elevated trains dead-end in
    front of City Hall (which is what they all did from the Brooklyn
    Bridge) when parallel service was right underneath it in the new 8th
    Avenue subway, and it even went uptown. And not that many people
    wanted every bus/trolley route Brooklyn to go to City Hall either.
    
    If "politics" is the word you want to use for dismantling obsolete
    elevated trains lines into a deadend Manhattan terminal over a bridge
    that probably could not handle the weight of modern equipment (even of
    the 1930s) and increasing the road capacity from Brooklyn into
    Manhattan by 50%, at the same time building a brand-new subway (8th
    Avenue) directly underneath it, okay...
    
    I often walk over the Brooklyn Bridge and sometimes think about what
    it must have been like with the El trains on there, instead of cars...
    it must have been interesting. But, alas, the world changes...I
    remember and miss trolley cars on Coney Island Avenue, too.
    
    
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NEXT>7313
PREVIOUS>7212
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:03 1997
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 19, 1997 at 16:03:09:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION posted by Steve on
    December 19, 1997 at 00:23:06:
    
    If they increase E and F service, maybe there really can be
    express/local service between Bergen St. and Church Avenue.
    
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NEXT>7241
PREVIOUS>7237
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Queensboro Plaza
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:05 1997
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Posted by Adam on December 19, 1997 at 17:04:59:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Queensboro Plaza posted by Julio Perez on December
    19, 1997 at 15:40:44:
    
    No, unfortunately I do not think that the Western Queens Gazette is
    online. However, there are two things that I may be able to do to help
    you. I could either just retype the entire article (which is rather
    long) here on SubTalk or I could send you your own copy of the
    Gazette. Let me know which you would prefer.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7240
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Queensboro Plaza
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:06 1997
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 19, 1997 at 17:06:57:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Queensboro Plaza posted by Julio Perez on December
    19, 1997 at 15:37:56:
    
    Julio, I did a quick search and the Western Queens Gazette is not
    on-line, at least not obviously so. I will keep checking the [9]Queens
    Tribune to see if any such news pops up and then post it.
    
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NEXT>7250
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Auctions
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:08 1997
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Posted by Adam on December 19, 1997 at 17:11:43:

   Does anybody know of an upcoming auction that the TA might have
    anytime in the near future? I remember one many years ago in the
    Transit Museum that had a lot of great stuff. Also would anyone know
    of other places to get old subway signs and the like? Thanks for your
    help!
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7233
POSTER>carl margolies 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYCT Bus electronic desination reading list for 1997.
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:10 1997
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Posted by carl margolies on December 19, 1997 at 19:02:40:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCT Bus electronic desination reading list for
    1997. posted by Charles Fiori on December 19, 1997 at 12:49:04:
    
    Please forward me a copy of the electronic destination bus readings if
    you can. Thanks in advance.
    
    Carl
    
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NEXT>7264
PREVIOUS>7215
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Braking
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:11 1997
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Posted by Joe M on December 19, 1997 at 20:34:39:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Braking posted by Philip nasadowski on December
    19, 1997 at 01:38:04:
    
    
    In some cars after they are in direct paralell the controler shunts
    the field circuts to reduce the force of the field. This lowers the
    torque of the motors but allows them to run faster for high speed
    operation. Field shunting is also used in the dynamic braking but I an
    not quite sure how that works yet
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7159
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Put R32 & R40 on the "N" line, R68 & a few R40 on the "Q" line & all
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:13 1997
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: Put R32 & R40 on the "N" line, R68 & a few R40 on
    the "Q" line & all R68A cars on the "B" line. posted by Lou from
    Brooklyn on December 18, 1997 at 09:23:01:
    
    Don't forget the vandalism on the B line with the R40's a couple of
    years ago... $3 million
    Shunya
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>6990
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Penn Sta.(Was NJT overcrowding...)
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:14 1997
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Posted by Andrew Huie on December 19, 1997 at 23:00:27:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New Penn Sta.(Was NJT overcrowding...) posted by
    Lou from Middletown on December 15, 1997 at 09:19:13:
    
    That's odd - I though the post office was giving up the facility -
    that's why the Penn Station idea started in the first place. Change of
    mind?
    
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NEXT>7268
PREVIOUS>7199
POSTER>Mike Rothenberg 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: East River Crossing: line by line
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:16 1997
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Posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 20, 1997 at 03:43:02:

   In Reply to: [8]East River Crossing: line by line posted by Eric B on
    December 18, 1997 at 21:53:00:
    
    Kudos to Eric B. for providing great detail on the possible changes
    associated with the Manhattan Bridge work. (I made the request a few
    days ago and appreciate the information.) The number of construction
    and bridge operation scenarios, coupled with the train service
    changes shown, is mind-boggling. Why all the train operational possi-
    bilities? Much of it seems so arbitrary: just look at how one train
    line could go on this or that track, to this or that terminal. A few
    questions - when is work supposed to start? And end? Will trains be
    restored to the bridge when work is done or be permanently removed?
    What are the Cranberry St. Tunnel & the Nostrand Junction? Thanks.
    
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NEXT>7252
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Three 3's are.... 14!
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:18 1997
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Posted by Todd Glickman on December 20, 1997 at 07:32:19:

   Last night I was returning from the meeting of the NY Division of the
    ERA. I got on an uptown #2 at Chambers St., but we crossed over to the
    local track due to a reported diabled train at 14th St. Approaching
    14th, I could see a #3 holding short of the station, and then the
    disabled in the station on the express track. It was the R-110A! I got
    off the #2 to see what was happening. Eventually, the motorman fixed
    the problem (maybe he rebooted the train, or whatever you do with a
    New Tech Train!). It left the station light. The line was now all
    backed up of course. Now, two trains were entering the station: A #3
    on each of the local and express tracks, simultaneously! And there was
    also a #3 on the downtown express. So three 3s into 14! Too bad there
    was a #1 on the downtown local...
    
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NEXT>7284
PREVIOUS>7189
POSTER>GarfieldA 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Williamsburg Bridge
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:20 1997
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Posted by GarfieldA on December 20, 1997 at 07:59:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Williamsburg Bridge posted by Lou from Brooklyn on
    December 18, 1997 at 13:22:38:
    
    I think this will be another blow for congestion for A,C,J,M, and Z
    riders. Already the A line is one of the most heavily used train lines
    in the city since a majority of the line is express. This is one of
    the reasons why the MTA came with the idea of "Skip-Stop Express"
    service for the J/Z line. Now with this expected halt of trains using
    the bridge, this will now increase ridership on the already packed A/C
    line. Another option for riders will be the L line but for most, all
    local service and alot of stations in Brooklyn is not their option to
    go to and from work.
    
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NEXT>7253
PREVIOUS>7242
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Auctions
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:22 1997
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 20, 1997 at 08:40:23:

   In Reply to: [8]Auctions posted by Adam on December 19, 1997 at
    17:11:43:
    
    Adam, I have a large collection of subway and bus signs. What are you
    seeking?
    
    
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NEXT>7296
PREVIOUS>7238
POSTER>Mellow One 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Brooklyn Bridge Rails
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:24 1997
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Posted by Mellow One on December 20, 1997 at 09:37:51:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Brooklyn Bridge Rails posted by Carl M. Rabbin on
    December 19, 1997 at 16:01:56:
    
    Yes, I know the Brooklyn Bridge tracks have been gone for longer than
    I have been on this earth, (but not by much). The approaches from the
    Brooklyn side used the unimproved original El structures. However, as
    far as deadending at City Hall, you just have to drive accross the
    bridge, and you dead end on the streets or inch your way to the FDR
    Drive. What NYC need less of, is automobile traffic. Manhattan
    Island's automobile /truck/bus capacity was exceeded over 50 years
    ago.
    What I was looking for, was, Has ther been any serious (or otherwise)
    consideration of reusing the bridge for trolleys/light rail.
    At a minimum, the City of New York could always use the tourist $.
    The same goes for the Queensboro Bridge.
    Brooklyn Heights is still a beutiful place. My ancestors made it there
    home over a century ago.
    Did you know, that NYC banned steam engines from Manhattan Island
    almost a century ago. That was the reason Penn Station (the original)
    and Grand Central Station were built to handle electric trains.
    The LIRR was at one time partially integrated into the Brooklyn and
    Queens electric railway system, and ofcourse, its western terminus
    became Penn Station once the East River tunnels were completed and
    electrified.
    
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NEXT>7347
PREVIOUS>7248
POSTER>CA Warren 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Three 3's are.... 14!
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:25 1997
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Posted by CA Warren on December 20, 1997 at 09:47:20:

   In Reply to: [8]Three 3's are.... 14! posted by Todd Glickman on
    December 20, 1997 at 07:32:19:
    
    Could you send me or post the address of the ERA.
    Thank you and Merry Christmas.
    
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NEXT>7348
PREVIOUS>7250
POSTER>Adam 
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SUBJECT>Re: Auctions
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:27 1997
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Posted by Adam on December 20, 1997 at 10:48:23:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Auctions posted by Charles Fiori on December 20,
    1997 at 08:40:23:
    
    I am looking mainly for those large rectangular signs that hang from
    the ceiling in the stations with the station name on them. Do you
    possibly have any of these that you would want to sell? Thanks!!!
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge etc. (2nd try my browser had been behaving like the N
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:29 1997
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   In Reply to: [8]Manhattan Bridge Problems-Questions,Comments,Idea
    posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 18, 1997 at 09:16:11:
    
    (Oops..my browser had crashed while I was sending my orginal message
    on 12/18 and I had been having some problems logging on yesterday.
    Anyhoo, here' what I was going to say)
    1) Reconfigure the Bway Lafayette complex by tying in the trackage to
    Grand St to the Chrystie/Delancey cut to the Williamsburg Bridge to
    allow Grand St trains to access the 6th Ave Local tracks. Install
    double crossovers at both ends of Grand St and retain approximatley
    650 feet of track south of Grand St(the lead to the Bridge) as a
    lay-up area to replace the current one at 2nd Ave Houston St on the F
    line. this will create a terminal at Grand St for trains heading to
    and from Queens via 63rd St and the 6th Ave Local. Build a transfer
    connection between Grand St and the nearby J and M stop at the Bowery.
    Also complete the northbound transfer at Bway-Lafayette from the #6
    Line and build a transfer passageway from Bway-Lafayette to the nearby
    N/R stop at Prince Street/Broadway.
    2) Re configure the Broadway line tracks on the Bridge as follows.
    Re-route the northbound track to the north side of the bridge by
    taking over the former southbound 6th Ave track and re-activate the
    now-unused southbound tunnel that fed Broadway trains onto the north
    side of the Bridge prior to 1967. Move the southbound Broadway track
    to the former northbound Bway track on the South side of the bridge.
    Remove the current northbound 6th Ave and Southbound Broadway tracks
    and replace them with steel decking to form a catwalk for repair crews
    aand emergency evacuations.
    3) Re-build the flyover complex at Bway Lafayette by filling in the
    current ramp used by the B and D trains from Grand St to access the
    6th Ave express line and extend the express tracks from Bway-Lafayette
    into the now-unused double-track lay-up at 2nd Avenue. This would
    essentially restore the 6th Ave line to it's original design when it
    opened in the 1930s up until 1965-67 when the connection via Chrystie
    street opened.
    4) Extend the 2-track lay up at Second Avenue into a new 2 track
    tunnel going east along Houston and south under Clinton Street under
    the Esat River, past the current F-Rutgers tube making landfall at
    Gold Street in Brooklyn have it travel along Gold Street to Flatbush
    ave where it could connect with the current BMT/IND route to De Kalb
    Ave near the abandoned Myrtle Ave stop. Design the connection so it
    could mesh the present flyover complex at Myrtle and allow 6th Ave
    trains the following route options: 1) Brighton/4th Ave via De Kalb
    station tracks and 2) 4th Ave via De Kalb bypass. Design the tunnel
    with provisions at both ends to allow for future constuction of a twin
    Clinton-Gold tube for Broadway trains that would follow the current
    6th Ave tube and then travel via East Broadway and Canal street where
    it would connect with the present BMT line to the bridge at a point
    just south of the Canal St(lower level) station. Build a station at
    Delancey and Clinton to serve the Lower East side and provide a free
    transfer to the J and M line at Essex street.
    5)(For the Future once Clinton-Gold tube is operational) Now that the
    project is essentially completed there a few provisions that could and
    should be made. First off is the afore-mentioned design provisons for
    the "twinning" of the Clinton Gold tube for the Broadway line. If a
    2nd tube needs to be built it can diverge from the current ramp to the
    bridge at Canal Street, travel east along Canal and East Broadway to
    Clinton Street and follow the 1st tube into Brooklyn. A stop at Canal
    and East Broadway should be built to serve the growing eastern fringe
    of Chinatown and provide a free-transfer to the F line stop at East
    Broadway & Rutgers St. The divergence at Canal should be built at
    grade then undeprin the lay-up at Grand St and pass over the 2nd Ave
    line to Lower Manhattan. Once the 2nd tube is built re-verse
    signalling and crossovers should be installed at both ends of the twin
    tubes so that one tube could remain in service if the other has to be
    closed for track and signal repairs or during emergencies. Also a 650
    foot section of track on the former ramp leading to the bridge should
    remain in place to create a relay/lay-up area if the 2nd Ave line is
    ever built north of 63rd St and service to Harlem and The Bronx via
    Brodway is needed. In addtion the current stub to Grand St can and
    should be extended using the planned 2nd ave line route via Bowery to
    Chatham Square then via St James Pl, Pearl and Water Sts to Lower
    Manhat-
    tan with stations at Chatham square(already built from what I heard),
    Fulton St-South St Seaport, Wall Street and the terminal at
    Broad/Whitehall. Grand St can be expanded from 2 to 4 tracks per it's
    orginal design with the 2 center tracks in service for lay-ups and
    short-turn trips during the rush hours with the 2 outer tracks for
    trains to lower Manhattan. The extension should underpin the Canal
    extension to the twin tube and the relay/lay-up. Design provsions
    should be made north of Grand St to allow the extension of the 2nd Ave
    line further north passing under the Bway-Layatte complex and the
    installation of double crossovers between the 6th and 2nd ave Lines.
    Finally, the 6th Ave-Clinton-Gold tube should be designed with an
    upper level tunnel between Houston and East Bway should the 2nd ave
    line be built with 4 tracks and which would allow 2nd Ave local trains
    to loop thru the Lower East Side via St Mark's Place, Avenue B,
    Clinton and Madision st to Chatham Square. An upper level plstform can
    be built atop the existing Delancey/Clinton station and can be pressed
    into service as a mezzanine of sorts until the 2nd Ave loop via the
    East Villiage is ever built.
    Sorry for the length of this posting but I feel that the time is long
    since passed to develop a more extensive plan to deal with the
    manhattan bridge crisis. The current plan for a De Kalb-Rutgers link,
    to me is pretty idiotic to begin with. It intends to shove 2-3 more
    trains onto a 2 track tube overloading it like the Montague St Tunnel,
    creates a bottleneck for 6th Ave trains near West 4th St, does little
    to restore the N and Q lines to their original habitat and guts
    service to an extremely busy station in the heart of Chinatown at
    Grand St. The MTA may save a few $$ in the short trem by digging a
    1,000-foot tube near De Kalb Ave, but IMHO it would create an
    operational nightmare on much of the BMT Southern Divsions. For the
    last 10 years or so service to and from Southern Brooklyn has been
    de-stabilized beacuse of the Manhattan bridge problem. If nothing else
    the curent proposal suffers greatly from a lack of imagination and an
    even greater lack of willpower. Although the Rutgers plan is supposed
    to be for temporary re-routes, my gut felling tells me that this could
    end up to be permenant if recent history is to be the judge.
    
    
    
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NEXT>7367
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mark Greenwald 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:31 1997
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Posted by Mark Greenwald on December 20, 1997 at 12:39:46:

   I'm gooing to make an attempt to provide a link that leads to a
    current map of the Baltimore Light Rail system. One think to note
    though, all areas on the map ARE complete so disregard the portions
    with the dashed lines. Also, trains either run from BWI to Penn
    Station or Cromwell to Timonium. Here comes the link:
    [8]This is a link to a map of the Baltimore Light rail--e-mail me if
    it does or doesn't work
    
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NEXT>7263
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Can Someone Answer My 12/16/97 Post Concerning Polo Grounds Shuttle?
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:33 1997
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Posted by Timothy on December 20, 1997 at 13:13:02:

   I posted a message on 12/16/97, concerning photos of the Polo Grounds
    Shuttle, but haven't received any responses. Is anyone going to answer
    my
    questions in that message? There has to be someone here who is capable
    of
    answering the questions I posted. I'm very curious about the Polo
    Grounds
    Shuttle, and the ornamental features in its stations and el structure.
    
    Hope someone can help me, or at least tell me of other possible
    transit
    links on the web, that focus on New York City els. Thanks.
    
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NEXT>7282
PREVIOUS>7210
POSTER>Mark Greenwald 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Update on Breaking the Guinness Record
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:34 1997
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Posted by Mark Greenwald on December 20, 1997 at 13:58:06:

   In Reply to: [8]Update on Breaking the Guinness Record posted by Adam
    on December 19, 1997 at 00:06:25:
    
    Adam, On the assumption that we have to go through or stop at each
    station, what do we do about the Aqueduct Racetrack station---this
    could create its own problems------------
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7234
POSTER>Ogre 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 2nd Ave. Line News
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:36 1997
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Posted by Ogre on December 20, 1997 at 14:53:39:

   In Reply to: [8]2nd Ave. Line News posted by Andrew Byler on December
    18, 1997 at 23:25:43:
    
    Thank God they are going to build it... I know it would make sense to
    connect it at Lexington Ave. and 63rd Street because on the other side
    of the staion walls are unused tracks... Knock down the walls and you
    will have a transfer station...
    
    Mental note: Great, running the train down the BMT Broadway line is a
    good idea, but only if they finish the Manhattan Bridge will it beome
    a GREAT idea...
    
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NEXT>7355
PREVIOUS>7183
POSTER>Danny 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: JFK light rail ...more info
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:38 1997
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Posted by Danny on December 20, 1997 at 15:07:16:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by Gary Jacobi
    on December 18, 1997 at 17:35:27:
    
    Something dowsn't seem right about that... Why bother building an
    elevated line... unless they make it so that the train doesn't make
    noise...
    
    P.S. -- I am not a Queens native... Could you tell me where Federal
    Circle is located...
    
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NEXT>7275
PREVIOUS>7224
POSTER>Mike 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:39 1997
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Posted by Mike on December 20, 1997 at 15:57:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Wayne Johnson on
    December 19, 1997 at 09:45:36:
    
    There was also a MCI bus that has the electronic desination sign that
    was numbered 5950 that NYCT was using during the Grumman crises in the
    early 1980, I would like to know where this bus was borrowed from.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mike 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>The trurth. When will NYCT ever restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service.
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:41 1997
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Posted by Mike on December 20, 1997 at 16:03:06:

   The truth. Ehen will NYCT ever restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn
    service & if you know or heard of anything about this & when it might
    be restored, please post it.
    
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NEXT>7298
PREVIOUS>7219
POSTER>Lefty 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Transit Fares
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:43 1997
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Posted by Lefty on December 20, 1997 at 16:04:18:

   In Reply to: [8]New Transit Fares posted by Charles Fiori on December
    19, 1997 at 08:38:52:
    
    in reaction to the articles... these guys are such pessimists.. i
    think the monthly pass will still save people a LOT of money. so some
    working mother or father goes to work every day by subway or bus and
    comes back and pays regular fare pretty much, but then they could also
    use it as much as they want on the weekends, or give it to their kids
    to use on the weekend, which by the way, pataki OKed... the same is
    the case with the weekly pass, just for people who dont want to pay in
    advance so much.. the $4 daily pass is out of the question a GREAT
    deal. if someone wants to take a tour of NYC, or just skip around from
    place to place alot in one day for any reason, there is no doubt that
    it saves them money..
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7256
POSTER>Mellow One 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Can Someone Answer My 12/16/97 Post Concerning Polo Grounds Shuttle?
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:46 1997
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Posted by Mellow One on December 20, 1997 at 19:19:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Can Someone Answer My 12/16/97 Post Concerning Polo
    Grounds Shuttle? posted by Timothy on December 20, 1997 at 13:13:02:
    
    The Polo Grounds shuttle was the remains of one of New York City's
    earliest interurban and local rapid transit systems.
    First. The picture of the remaaining station structure was the
    terminus of the New York and Northern RR which crossed a swing bridge
    from the Bronx to Manhattan Island. This railroad has a history
    itself, finally ending life as the Putnam Div of the New York Central.
    Second. The station was also the norther terminus of the 9th Ave El.
    Before 1900, the NY&N and the 9th Ave El wer owned by private firms
    and have an interesting history of financial intrigue and railway
    empire building. Electrification of the els and expansion of the
    original IRT subway to the Bronx via the Jerome Ave Line produced an
    interesting portion of the elevated system.
    The NY&N RR was incorporated into the New York Central (& Hudson
    River) RR.
    The bridge (steam operated) was sold/leased? to the IRT and the 9th
    Ave El was extended across the river and through a tunnel to connect
    with the Jerome Ave subway elevated structure. The 9th Ave El trains
    were operating on the Jerome Ave Line before the IRT Harlem River
    tunnels were completed and put into service.
    The 9th and 6th Ave Els were replaced by the IND 8th and 6th Ave
    Subway lines in 1939. However, the Polo Grounds was still generating
    enough transit revenue to keep the Jerome Ave/Polo Grounds shuttle
    going.
    There are tons of NYC and transit history condensed here.
    I also have a posting on the Bronx Board about the 2nd/#rd Ave El
    extensions in the Bronx. I will post it here when a similar question
    arises.
    Merry Christmas to You and Happy Surfing New Year.
    
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NEXT>7266
PREVIOUS>7244
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Braking
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:48 1997
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Posted by Steve on December 20, 1997 at 19:49:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by Philip nasadowski on December
    19, 1997 at 01:38:04:
    
    The SCM-1 controller (which sold for around $50K each) is very well
    documented although the documentation is quite involved. Check the GE
    website and perhaps you can get some simplified stuff. One interesting
    note: In 1991 or 1992, I met he gentleman who designed the SCM
    controller. He was celebrating his 50th year with GE and suprisingly,
    at 70++ years old he got under an R-46 to have his picture taken with
    his creation.
    
    As for the LIRR, they use the SCM-4 controller which, unlike the
    SCM-1, has two cam controllers, one propulsion and one braking, in the
    box.
    
    As for Westinghouse, roughly 1600 NYCT cars use Westinghouse
    propulsion. After the redbirds are gone, the R-62A, R-68 and R-68A
    will have westinghouse propulsion. Even that won't last long. In 1999
    and 2000 they will be replaced with Westinghouse E-Cams, a
    micro-processor based controller which is now used on R-44s...
    
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NEXT>8033
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>R-68As going back to the Q
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:51 1997
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Posted by Steve on December 20, 1997 at 19:54:48:

   For all of you Q line riders who have gotten used to your morning
    commute at the front window of a Slant-40 as you traverse the scenic
    Brighton line, make the most of this week. Likely during next weekend,
    the Bs and Qs will re-swap equipment. Guess why?????
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7264
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Braking
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:53 1997
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Posted by Steve on December 20, 1997 at 20:09:16:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Braking posted by a.pardi on December 18, 1997 at
    17:44:05:
    
    Those cars are numbered 4040 through 4049 including spares. They come
    out of Concourse yard Tuesday through Friday AM...
    
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NEXT>7276
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Polo Grounds (155th St.) Viaduct (To Mellow One)
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:55 1997
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Posted by Timothy on December 20, 1997 at 21:24:58:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Can Someone Answer My 12/16/97 Post Concerning
    Polo Grounds Shuttle? posted by Mellow One on December 20, 1997 at
    19:19:24:
    
    Thank you for your information. I've heard that portions of the 155th
    St.
    viaduct that leads to the Macombs Dam Bridge are remnants of the 9th
    Ave.
    El, and Polo Grounds Shuttle. I remember riding past the viaduct on
    8th
    Ave., and seeing stairways, with very ornamental iron railings,
    leading
    up to the viaduct. The underside of the viaduct, in combination with
    the
    stairways, looks very much like an el structure. In the section on
    disused
    and abandoned subway/elevated stations, it is said that those
    stairways
    are remnants of the 9th Ave. El. Also, I think that the 155th St.
    viaduct
    stairways were featured in a Levi's 501 Jeans TV commercial back in
    the
    early or mid 1980's, however, I have no way of confirming that. I'm
    hoping
    that maybe there is someone here in SubTalk who has seen, and
    remembered
    that commercial, would be able to tell me if the scene in the
    commercial
    was in fact the 155th St. stairways. I'm hoping to sometime photograph
    the
    155th St. viaduct and stairways during my next visit to New York City.
    I
    will most likely take the C or D train, and get off at 155th St.. The
    neighborhood around that area did look somewhat seedy. Even so, Would
    it
    be safe for me to take pictures in that area, without risking being
    mugged
    or held up? Hope you can help me. Thanks, and happy holidays!!
    
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NEXT>7269
PREVIOUS>7247
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: East River Crossing: line by line
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:57 1997
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Posted by Eric B on December 20, 1997 at 21:41:57:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: East River Crossing: line by line posted by David
    Pirmann - Web Site host on December 18, 1997 at 22:28:02:
    
    I keep getting a "group not valid" message. I was just getting ready
    to ask you about this soon, anyway. (luckily, I am able to access the
    archives in a library computer)
    
    
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NEXT>7290
PREVIOUS>7268
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: East River Crossing: line by line
DATE>Dec 28 18:16:59 1997
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Posted by Eric B on December 20, 1997 at 21:53:41:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: East River Crossing: line by line posted by Mike
    Rothenberg on December 20, 1997 at 03:43:02:
    
    Thank you very much. It was a pleasure to provide the information. I
    thought it was very fascinating.
    The Cranberry St tunnel is the one the A & C use, connecting
    Bway-Nassau and High St. The Nostrand Junction is the junction between
    the 3/4 and 2/5 on Eastern Pkwy, near Nostrand, which the 2&5 turn off
    onto. The 5 has to cross over the local connection, and the
    improvement would add a flying crossover. The layout was in the binder
    that included the service plans, but I dont think the MTC has any
    left. You could ask them.
    I don't know when work would start. It has to be approved and funded
    first. I think I may have heard in the next decade, but you know how
    these plans get delayed. It is projected to take about 4 or 5 years,
    about the same time as the current 63rd St connection construction.
    The plans do call for train service over the bridge after the
    construction, depending on whether the bridge is allowed to remain
    open for train traffic. The partially open (N, S) and fully open (O)
    scenario service plans are listed in my posts.
    
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NEXT>7344
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Michael Adler 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Track map template (for those who want to draw)
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:00 1997
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Posted by Michael Adler on December 20, 1997 at 21:56:34:

   Hi all,
    
    What do you all think if I create a track map template based on MS
    Paintbrush (or Paint) .BMP format and you can use this template to
    create a system track maps (current or historial)?
    
    Any suggestions on the template?
    
    Season Greetings,
    Michael Adler
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7193
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: What lines does NYCT plan to assign the R142 & R143 to.
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:02 1997
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Posted by Eric B on December 20, 1997 at 22:10:06:

   In Reply to: [7]What lines does NYCT plan to assign the R142 & R143
    to. posted by Mike on December 18, 1997 at 20:47:32:
    
    The 2 &5, which now have old equipment, and the L, which will begin
    testing a new signal system, the cars will be designed for. Som may
    also run on the M, and then we'll see OPTO on that shuttle.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The trurth. When will NYCT ever restore 6th Av-Broadway/Brooklyn
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:04 1997
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   In Reply to: [8]The trurth. When will NYCT ever restore 6th
    Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service. posted by Mike on December 20, 1997 at
    16:03:06:
    
    
    Service can't be restored until the Manhattan Bridge is fully reopened
    for subway service. Unfortunately, I have this suspicion that bridge
    service will *never* be fully restored.
    So holding one's breath for resumption of express service on Broadway
    is highly inadvisable!
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7201
POSTER>steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA electronic desination reading list.
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:07 1997
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Posted by steve on December 21, 1997 at 00:33:50:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: SEPTA electronic desination reading list. posted
    by Andrew Byler on December 18, 1997 at 23:01:30:
    
    
    would you be able to send me a list,,via US Mail,,ofthe commuter Rail
    destination signs ,,thank you ,,,,Steve Lowenthal,,
    59 New Ludlow Rd suite 8B
    Chicopee ,Mass 01020
    
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NEXT>7303
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Joseph A. Papa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Happy Holidays
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:09 1997
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Posted by Joseph A. Papa on December 21, 1997 at 00:53:30:

   I would like to take this time to wish all "Subtalk" contributors a
    healthy and prosperous holiday season.
    
    A special mention must be given to David Pirmann. Your site has helped
    further my transportation education and has put me in touch with other
    "Transit Groupies". A big "Thank You".
    
    
    All the best for 1998,
    Joseph A. Papa,
    Superintendent - Division of Stations
    
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NEXT>7337
PREVIOUS>7260
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:11 1997
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Posted by Bootsy on December 21, 1997 at 01:09:14:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Mike on December
    20, 1997 at 15:57:24:
    
    Most likely a Jersey Cruiser -- those are the only MCI busses with
    electronic signs (as far as I know).
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7267
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Polo Grounds (155th St.) Viaduct (To Mellow One)
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:13 1997
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Posted by Andrew Huie on December 21, 1997 at 01:29:16:

   In Reply to: [8]Polo Grounds (155th St.) Viaduct (To Mellow One)
    posted by Timothy on December 20, 1997 at 21:24:58:
    
    As long as your not going at 2AM or flashing large amounts of cash and
    jewelry (not smart in any neighborhood) you should be just fine. I
    went by there and didn't feel particularly threatened. The stairways
    are in terrible condition, so you'll have to photograph them from the
    foot or the head (one long set of stairs up to the viaduct).
    
    The viaduct itself wasn't really part of the 9th Ave El. IMO, even
    saying the stairways were part of the el is stretching it. After all,
    the fancy ironwork is also found on the stone steps leading directly
    up to the viaduct. Also, photos of the 155th st station of the el
    usually show the station some distance from any overhead structure.
    
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NEXT>7286
PREVIOUS>7204
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:15 1997
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Posted by Andrew Huie on December 21, 1997 at 02:50:33:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL posted by Mellow One
    on December 18, 1997 at 23:20:18:
    
    Actually, the NYW&B connected with the current Amtrak line, not with
    the New Haven/Harlem tracks near Third Avenue.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7072
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Last Stop
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:16 1997
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Posted by Andrew Huie on December 21, 1997 at 03:00:28:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Last Stop posted by Hank Eisenstein on December
    16, 1997 at 14:23:01:
    
    I think it was a picture of a train which TRIED to go past the bumper
    block. However, when I was at Flatbush Ave a few years ago, the bumper
    blocks and the platform surrounding the end of the line were firmly in
    place.
    
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NEXT>7288
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:19 1997
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Posted by Andrew Huie on December 21, 1997 at 03:07:15:

   I was passing through Borough Park recently and visited the Hoyt St
    IRT station and Macy's (formerly A&S). Unfortunately, Macy's covered
    up any trace of the connection to the IRT in their basement, and the
    entrance in the station itself has been closed for a fairly long time,
    judging from the dirt on the roll gate and the fact that bars have
    been placed there in a rather permanent fashion.
    
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NEXT>7359
PREVIOUS>7228
POSTER>Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subways songs
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:21 1997
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Posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on December 21, 1997 at 04:45:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Subways songs posted by Chris C. on December 19,
    1997 at 11:32:36:
    
    She caught the Katy,
    n' left me a mule to ride
    
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NEXT>7285
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Dave 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>ENTERING CITY HALL STATION
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:23 1997
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Posted by Dave on December 21, 1997 at 06:43:42:

   I'd like to get to see City Hall station, how can I get a view of it
    from a train or can I get a motorman to let me off at the station for
    a quit tour?
    
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NEXT>7287
PREVIOUS>7257
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Update on Breaking the Guinness Record
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:25 1997
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 21, 1997 at 07:04:18:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Update on Breaking the Guinness Record posted by
    Mark Greenwald on December 20, 1997 at 13:58:06:
    
    What problems? Seeing that it is closed 1/2 the time, and is only a
    northbound stop (?!?!?) and we have to do an out and back to the
    Rockaways anyhow, unless we start or end there.
    I'd just like to know why, if the idea for the station was for people
    going to aquaduct from Manhattan (Original 'Horse Train' ran from
    59st/Columbus) and return, why the station is only northbound.....
    -Hank
    
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NEXT>7398
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Aqeduct Race Track Sta ( was RE:Update on Breaking the Guinness Record )
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:27 1997
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Posted by subway-buff on December 21, 1997 at 07:13:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Update on Breaking the Guinness Record posted by
    Hank Eisenstein on December 21, 1997 at 07:04:18:
    
    
    The station was the end of the line for this train. According to Joe
    Cunningham on ther Train to the Sea (Rockaway Tour) the train would be
    shifted over to the N. Bound track to stop there. It would then go to
    a layup track awaiting the end of the races. It is still only used
    when the horses are running. All Manhattan bound trains pass through
    this stop, whether the train stops or not depends on the horses!
    
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NEXT>7307
PREVIOUS>7249
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Williamsburg Bridge
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:29 1997
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Posted by subway-buff on December 21, 1997 at 07:21:43:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Williamsburg Bridge posted by GarfieldA on
    December 20, 1997 at 07:59:22:
    
    Let me assure you. Plans call for *not* clsoing the bridge until the
    new steel is at the bridge site. then and *only* then will the bridge
    be closed for 6 months while 3 crews work 6 days a week round the
    clock to tear down *and* rebuild the "transit structure". The Willie B
    ,according to an NYC engineer is really three bridges in one- The
    Manhattan bound roadways, The Brooklyn Bound roadways, and the transit
    structure in the middle. The closure will *not* be permanent. As far
    as train servicing- they will restore the switch on the L line to the
    LIRR bay ridge to allow trains to go to coney Island Shop via Bay
    ridge and South Brooklyn.(Joe cunningham on the Brooklyn Els Tour:
    source)
    It will not be like the FDR where they close before the stee!(The
    rebuild will be from Essex to Marcy.) The facts? it remains to be
    seen-116 and lenox is now going to closed for 8 weeks only! The
    Neighborhood wont let them try to permanently close the bridge
    
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NEXT>7295
PREVIOUS>7281
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: ENTERING CITY HALL STATION
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:31 1997
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Posted by Todd Glickman on December 21, 1997 at 07:42:04:

   In Reply to: [8]ENTERING CITY HALL STATION posted by Dave on December
    21, 1997 at 06:43:42:
    
    You cannot get off the train at City Hall (unless on a Museum tour).
    However, you ARE now allowed to ride around the loop (this is a recent
    change, in that the loop tracks are now "public.") Not all motormen
    know this, however, and some may give you a hard time. You should ask
    the motorman to call his/her dispatcher and refer to Bulletin 100-95
    dated
    October 24, 1995 which states that passengers are now permitted to
    ride around the Brooklyn Bridge loop.
    
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NEXT>7326
PREVIOUS>7277
POSTER>Mellow One 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:33 1997
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Posted by Mellow One on December 21, 1997 at 09:05:59:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL posted by Andrew Huie
    on December 21, 1997 at 02:50:33:
    
    I give up.
    See the 2nd Ave line news reply by Andrew Byler.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7282
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Update on Breaking the Guinness Record
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:35 1997
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Posted by Adam on December 21, 1997 at 10:35:49:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Update on Breaking the Guinness Record posted by
    Mark Greenwald on December 20, 1997 at 13:58:06:
    
    Well, I guess we just have to see if it will be open or not, but I
    guess if it's not just passing by should be ok, hopefully but we'll
    hear from Guinness on that. There are a number of other areas that I
    am now concerned about, though. I just got a brochure in the mail
    about the B and Q trains which will now terminate at 57th St. and 6th
    Ave. To replace the service to Queensbridge/21st Street, a special
    shuttle will run from 57 St./7th Ave. to Lexington Ave./63rd. St.,
    Roosevelt Island, and 21st St./Queensbridge EVERY 20 MINUTES. This
    diversion in service will certainly adversly affect our travel time.
    Also, as SubwayBuff pointed out to me, there will be reduced service
    on the 1, 2, and 3 lines due to construction over there on one of the
    stations starting in March and continuing for a couple of months. So,
    I think we need to discuss these possible problems at our next meeting
    which hopefully will be soon!
    
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NEXT>7300
PREVIOUS>7279
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:37 1997
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Posted by Adam on December 21, 1997 at 10:41:33:

   In Reply to: [8]About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's... posted by
    Andrew Huie on December 21, 1997 at 03:07:15:
    
    Did you do a thorough investigation of their basement? Perhaps the
    entrance is behind a fake wall or something. Why did they ever close
    it up in the first place? I think that it would be advantageous to
    have a direct connection from the subway to your store. Last night I
    went right from the 59th. and Lex. station on the N, R, 4, 5, and 6
    into Bloomingdales. I thought this was a great connection!
    
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NEXT>7291
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>B and Q construction
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:39 1997
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Posted by Adam on December 21, 1997 at 10:48:27:

   Does anybody know why they are terminating B and Q trains at 57 and
    6th Ave for the next 15 months while "track and tunnel reconstruction
    work" is being completed? Isn't this a recently new line that should
    be in good working order without need of reconstruction? Or does this
    have something to do with the 63rd Street tunnel connection which I am
    strongly suspecting? Either way, this seems like an awfully long time
    for the Special Shuttle to operate (it will replace the remainder of
    the B and Q lines by going from 57 and 7th in the N and R station to
    63rd. and Lex to Roosevelt Island and then to Queensbridge) from
    January 4th 1998 to SPRING 1999.
    
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NEXT>7306
PREVIOUS>7269
POSTER>Mike Rothenberg 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: East River Crossing: line by line
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:41 1997
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Posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 21, 1997 at 12:14:44:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: East River Crossing: line by line posted by Eric B
    on December 20, 1997 at 21:53:41:
    
    You're welcome, Eric. (Great job!) What a mess. Wouldn't this be
    the highest-priority project to use the $$ surplus for: build a new
    4 track E. River tunnel for N/B/D/Q trains that can access both Bdwy &
    6th Ave. lines in Manhattan as a replacement for the Manhattan Bridge,
    (i.e.,with the same Mnhtn options as the MB)? This should permanently
    eliminate the problem. The many MTA train scenarios you provided make
    no sense to me. Is there any single set of logic principles that
    would lead anyone to all those (inconsistent) operating scenarios for
    bridge open/par-open/closed -Rutgers Tun.- Nostrand Junction options?
    
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NEXT>7320
PREVIOUS>7289
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: B and Q construction
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:43 1997
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Posted by Steve on December 21, 1997 at 12:36:37:

   In Reply to: [8]B and Q construction posted by Adam on December 21,
    1997 at 10:48:27:
    
    While the line has not been open all that long, the actual tunnel
    construction is about 30 years old. It layed, unused, for nearly two
    decades.
    
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NEXT>7318
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Michael Adler 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>TransitAds updated!
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:44 1997
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Posted by Michael Adler on December 21, 1997 at 12:56:35:

   Hi all,
    
    Just to let you all know that TransitAds has (finally) been updated,
    those in oldads has been transferred to old ads section. Anyone who
    wants to update their ads, please let me know.
    
    As always, posting an ad is free!
    
    Season Greetings,
    Michael Adler
    
    Duh, I don't know how to post a link here it's at:
    http://www.quuxuum.org/transitads/
    
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NEXT>7294
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Robert Adler 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Brighton line between Ocean Pkwy and W 8th
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:46 1997
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Posted by Robert Adler on December 21, 1997 at 12:59:51:

   Were there ever storage tracks on the lower level of this el?
    
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NEXT>7304
PREVIOUS>7293
POSTER>Robert Adler 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Brighton line between Ocean Pkwy and W 8th
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:47 1997
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Posted by Robert Adler on December 21, 1997 at 13:00:12:

   Were there ever storage tracks on the lower level of this el?
    
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NEXT>7301
PREVIOUS>7285
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: ENTERING CITY HALL STATION
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:49 1997
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Posted by Bootsy on December 21, 1997 at 13:10:11:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: ENTERING CITY HALL STATION posted by Todd Glickman
    on December 21, 1997 at 07:42:04:
    
    And that would be on the IRT Lex-Pelham Local, also known as the #6
    train.
    
    
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NEXT>7397
PREVIOUS>7251
POSTER>Lou from Middletown 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Brooklyn Bridge Rails
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:51 1997
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Posted by Lou from Middletown on December 21, 1997 at 14:43:20:

   In Reply to: [7]Brooklyn Bridge Rails posted by Mellow One on December
    18, 1997 at 23:10:22:
    
    Actually, there's a very good reason that tracks were removed from
    Brooklyn Bridge- in 1944 there was a serious track fire, and with The
    War on, there was no materials to replace the tracks--plus as the
    other posts point out, there was a duplication of service anyway, and
    they probably would have been removed anyway!!
    
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NEXT>7317
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Christopher Rivera 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>The Manhattan Brigde Project
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:52 1997
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Posted by Christopher Rivera on December 21, 1997 at 15:00:53:

   If they were to open the other side of the Manhattan Bridge would the
    Q go back to 7 avenue and the N go to Whitehall street and would the R
    train also go back to the Nassau Local and will the M train go to
    Coney Island. Plus will the D train go Express again?
    Thank you for your time.
    Christopher Rivera
    
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NEXT>7314
PREVIOUS>7262
POSTER>Fred Wellman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Transit Fares
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:54 1997
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Posted by Fred Wellman on December 21, 1997 at 15:09:11:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: New Transit Fares posted by Lefty on December 20,
    1997 at 16:04:18:
    
    The MBTA used to offered a passholder to bring one guest on Sunday's
    for free. A good selling point to help the pass sell.
    
    
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NEXT>7312
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>"mystery" platform on 2/3 line
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:56 1997
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Posted by subway-buff on December 21, 1997 at 16:43:39:

   Yesterday I rode the number 2 to 96 street and found what appears to
    be an abandoned or partially finished station on 103 street(I think it
    is 103- the street the train is udner after it turns off Lenox. I saw
    what appeared to be a high platform (no signs) with standard stairs
    going up. The stairs did not have the mergency stair look to them.
    Does anyone know what I saw?
    Was this a proposed station to the IND at 103 and Central park West, a
    work platform or what?
    
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NEXT>7302
PREVIOUS>7288
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...
DATE>Dec 28 18:17:58 1997
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Posted by subway-buff on December 21, 1997 at 16:48:28:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's... posted
    by Adam on December 21, 1997 at 10:41:33:
    
    Thie entrance is also closed off/blocked off on the transit side. If
    you enter the station from the street the entrances are separate for
    each direction. I was in the station recently and did see some
    doors/panels that looked like they could conceal the entrance. I also
    notice that they are closing other udnerpasses such as 23 and 8 av
    (they are down to one), 50th and 8 av etc.
    
    
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NEXT>7404
PREVIOUS>7295
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: ENTERING CITY HALL STATION
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:00 1997
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 21, 1997 at 17:19:15:

   In Reply to: [8]ENTERING CITY HALL STATION posted by Dave on December
    21, 1997 at 06:43:42:
    
    The City Hall loop on the 6 train is considered revenue track and
    therefore open to passenger use. Conductors still announce "all
    passengers off" when the trains pull into Brooklyn Bridge station, but
    if you ask a conductor or motorman there shouldn't be any problem.
    When I rode around the loop a couple of weeks ago, I asked the
    motorman and he readily agreed (though he seemed slightly surprised
    that anyone would be interested).
    I would not suggested riding without asking because there always is
    the chance that the train is going out of service and will be heading
    back to the yards.
    
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NEXT>7315
PREVIOUS>7300
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:01 1997
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 21, 1997 at 17:22:49:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's... posted
    by Adam on December 21, 1997 at 10:41:33:
    
    Store entrances to subway stations may not be a completely endangered
    species. The K-Mart store at Astor Place, which opened a year or so
    ago, has a basement entrance to the uptown 6 Astor Place station. I
    don't know whether this entrance was completely new or replaced an
    older one.
    
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NEXT>7327
PREVIOUS>7274
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Happy Holidays
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:03 1997
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Posted by David Pirmann on December 21, 1997 at 17:39:37:

   In Reply to: [8]Happy Holidays posted by Joseph A. Papa on December
    21, 1997 at 00:53:30:
    
    No problem! Glad to be of service!
    
    -Dave
    
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NEXT>7308
PREVIOUS>7294
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Brighton line between Ocean Pkwy and W 8th
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:04 1997
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Posted by Eric B on December 21, 1997 at 17:49:03:

   In Reply to: [7]Brighton line between Ocean Pkwy and W 8th posted by
    Robert Adler on December 21, 1997 at 12:59:51:
    
    No, what you're seeing is a ramp that once connected the Brighton and
    Culver levels before the full bi-level structure was completed.
    
    
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NEXT>8032
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:06 1997
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Posted by Eric B on December 21, 1997 at 18:05:30:

   In Reply to: [7]Future IRT numbers that are on the R62A curtains.
    posted by Mike on December 20, 1997 at 16:27:27:
    
    I've heard rumors about these numbers before, and from what I heard,
    the 8 is supposed to be the express, another number is supposed to be
    the exp to 238/241, and the other numbers are supposed to be routes
    with different terminal combinations-- 148th-Flatbush, etc.
    
    
    
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NEXT>7309
PREVIOUS>7290
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: East River Crossing: line by line
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:08 1997
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Posted by Eric B on December 21, 1997 at 18:36:49:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: East River Crossing: line by line posted by Mike
    Rothenberg on December 21, 1997 at 12:14:44:
    
    The tunnel replacements were in the original list of alternatives (as
    were putting tracks in the Battery tunnel, a new crossing in an
    entirely different location, leading to West St or other places, and a
    host of other wild ideas.) But they quickly failed the criteria,
    probably because of cost-benefit analysis. The tunnels were first
    suggested in 1953, but were deemed way too expensive back then. Try
    and contact the MTC, or see if you know
    someone who attended the meetings and got the full set of plans.
    The logic in the various plans was the best use of whatever capacity
    they had, or was added by new construction. But I myself don't
    completely understand everything they listed, either.
    
    
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NEXT>7311
PREVIOUS>7284
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Williamsburg Bridge
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:09 1997
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Posted by Eric B on December 21, 1997 at 18:42:52:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Williamsburg Bridge posted by subway-buff on
    December 21, 1997 at 07:21:43:
    
    Here's another interesting bit of information on the subject. One
    morning I was traveling over the bridge, and I was able to see through
    the tracks to the ground below, and I noticed that the new concrete
    pillars for the new middle structure are already up, at least on the
    Brooklyn side! So once the current track is removed, all they will
    have to do is add the vertical structures and the steelwork.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7304
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Brighton line between Ocean Pkwy and W 8th
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:11 1997
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Posted by Ed Sachs on December 21, 1997 at 18:45:39:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Brighton line between Ocean Pkwy and W 8th posted
    by Eric B on December 21, 1997 at 17:49:03:
    
    Actually, the Brighton line once had access to both levels, via the
    ramps you see there. In 1954, when the IND line was connected to the
    Culver line, the tracks were removed on these ramps. I do recall once
    prior to that riding a Brighton line train that used the lower level
    between Stillwell Ave. terminal and Ocean Parkway, but I believe that,
    even then, the Brighton line trains normally used the upper level.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7306
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: East River Crossing: line by line
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:13 1997
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Posted by Eric B on December 21, 1997 at 18:50:31:

   In Reply to: [7]East River Crossing: line by line posted by Eric B on
    December 18, 1997 at 21:53:00:
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: East River Crossing: Extra Bus service in TSM-C
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:15 1997
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Posted by Eric B on December 21, 1997 at 19:04:34:

   In Reply to: [7]East River Crossing: line by line posted by Eric B on
    December 18, 1997 at 21:53:00:
    
    One important plan I forgot to mention was that TSM plan for full
    bridge closure also included extended bus service over both the
    Manhattan Bridge and the Battery tunnel. The B-45 was to be extended
    over the bridge, and the B-71 was to be extended through the tunnel.
    andalong Church St to somewhere in lower Manhattan. A new B-99 was to
    run from both Atlantic Av and Empire Blvd over the Bridge to Park Row,
    (along with the 45) replacing the B-51.
    Sorry about the blank post. As I was beginning to change the title, I
    hit a key, by accident, and it instantly posted.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7307
POSTER>Zack 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Williamsburg Bridge
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:17 1997
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Posted by Zack on December 21, 1997 at 20:17:40:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Williamsburg Bridge posted by Eric B on December
    18, 1997 at 20:07:27:
    
    It wouldent cost that much $$$ to do that. would it?
    
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NEXT>7356
PREVIOUS>7299
POSTER>Zack 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:19 1997
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Posted by Zack on December 21, 1997 at 20:22:54:

   In Reply to: [8]"mystery" platform on 2/3 line posted by subway-buff
    on December 21, 1997 at 16:43:39:
    
    Was this platform lit? was it finished with tile? was it side
    platforms? or a center island?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7239
POSTER>ZAck 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:21 1997
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Posted by ZAck on December 21, 1997 at 20:35:20:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: TRACK/TUNNEL RECONSTRUCTION posted by Adam on
    December 18, 1997 at 23:53:06:
    
    Lou could you please repost your response. Subtalk liked it to the
    wrong post
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7298
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Transit Fares
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:24 1997
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 21, 1997 at 20:55:00:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New Transit Fares posted by Fred Wellman on
    December 21, 1997 at 15:09:11:
    
    The MBTA still allows you to bring a guest on Sundays. Unfortunately,
    I usually forget...
    
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NEXT>7325
PREVIOUS>7302
POSTER>Tim Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:25 1997
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Posted by Tim Speer on December 21, 1997 at 21:02:07:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's... posted
    by Peter Rosa on December 21, 1997 at 17:22:49:
    
    The platform entrance to K-Mart is not new. It used to lead to
    Wanamaker's, the store that used to be in that building.
    
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NEXT>7331
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Larry Littlefield 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Manhattan Bridge Replacement
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:27 1997
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Posted by Larry Littlefield on December 21, 1997 at 21:05:33:

   My understanding is the capacity of a subway line is 25 trains per
    hour, but only because of back-ups at the stations and the signal
    limitation of one train per fixed block. The reason the Montigue
    tunnel backs up, therefore, is not because of congestion in the
    tunnel, but because of the need to get all the trains through the
    Court St, Lswrence Street, and DeKalb Avenue stations. The theoretical
    limit for the IND is actually 40 trains per hour, and the TA believes
    that with new signals 40 trains will be achievable. Under the latest
    schedule, 25 trains are using the Manhattan bridge, along with 25 in
    the Montigue tunnel, 14 in the Rutgers Tunnel, and 21 in the Cranberry
    Tunnel. That is 85 trains, but at 40 trains per hour the three tunnels
    alone would have capacity for 120 trains.
    
    The problem with a single connection from Dekalb to the Rutgers tunnel
    is that 39 trains per hour would have to stop at East Broadway,
    Delancy, and 2nd Avenue. But if a second flying junction were
    installed from the tunnel to Grand Street, I believe the tunnel could
    accomodate all 40 trains on the B, D, F and Q lines. The trains would
    merge after the last stations (DeKalb and York), and separate before
    the first stations (East Broadway and Grand).
    
    Similarly, the unused tracks on the south side of the Bridge could be
    merged into Cranberry Tunnel beyond High Street, with a second
    connection branching off before Broadway-Nassau into the unused lower
    level of the BMT station at City Hall. This would restore the Sea
    Beach line to express service. If the Astoria line were extended to
    LaGuardia, as proposed by the TA and the Department of City Planning,
    the connection could also be used for a special airport service.
    Airport trains coming down the exrpess tracks of the Broadway line
    from LaGuardia could travel through the Cranberry Tunnel and out the
    Fulton Street line to JFK.
    
    That's four connections. It isn't cheap, but its cheaper than a new
    tunnel, and better than either waiting for service over the Manhattan
    Bridge to collapse of settling for one connection and 15 fewer trains
    per hour from Brooklyn. The connections would provide great
    flexibility, while a new tunnel would only be able to serve the tracks
    it were connected to. Moreover, unlike the Queens Boulevard
    connection, most of the connections would not involve digging up
    heavily trafficked main thouroughfares. The branch from the Cranberry
    Tunnel would have to cross Park Row, but the lower level of the City
    Hall Station could be used as a staging area and trains could be used
    to haul out the debris, cutting costs.
    
    To me, this is emergency construction, and the fact that this is not a
    political issue just shows the negligence of Brooklyn's political
    leaders. Forty percent of the income earned by Brooklyn residents in
    earned in Manhattan. Spending by these commuters is what generates
    most of the other 60 percent. And 80 percent of Brooklynites working
    in Manhattan travel by subway. If the remaining tracks over the
    Manattan Bridge were to be closed for any length of time, much of the
    southern rim of Brooklyn would soon cease to be comprised of middle
    income neighborhoods occupied by people with jobs.
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>7434
PREVIOUS>7297
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Manhattan Brigde Project
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:29 1997
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 21, 1997 at 21:15:30:

   In Reply to: [8]The Manhattan Brigde Project posted by Christopher
    Rivera on December 21, 1997 at 15:00:53:
    
    Originally, the M was supposed to return to its former route as a
    Brighton local, the Q was supposed to go back to its former route as a
    Brighton local and Broadway Express in the rush hours only and the D
    would go back to being a full time Brighton Express during the
    weekdays. But it's been so long ago that the Manhattan Bridge project
    was started that it's really ANYONE's guess what will happen. THAT,
    plus you now have the 63rd St open to Queensbridge and eventually to
    the IND Queens Blvd Line.
    
    --mark
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7292
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: TransitAds updated!
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:31 1997
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 21, 1997 at 21:19:03:

   In Reply to: [8]TransitAds updated! posted by Michael Adler on
    December 21, 1997 at 12:56:35:
    
    Here's the link that, I guess, Michael wanted to put here:
    
    Go to [9]TransitAds.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7321
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>John 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Max. train speed
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:33 1997
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Posted by John on December 21, 1997 at 21:20:08:

   Anyone know the speed of the N,R trains in the tunnel to Lex.? They
    seem to go pretty fast.(I would say 50Mph?) Seems faster then the 7
    train in the Steinway tunnel.
    
    How about the PATH trains under the Hudson River?
    
    
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NEXT>7352
PREVIOUS>7291
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: B and Q construction
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:35 1997
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 21, 1997 at 21:21:23:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: B and Q construction posted by Steve on December
    21, 1997 at 12:36:37:
    
    I think it also has something to do with the replacement of the
    roadbed.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7322
PREVIOUS>7319
POSTER>GarfieldA 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Max. train speed
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:36 1997
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Posted by GarfieldA on December 21, 1997 at 22:01:37:

   In Reply to: [8]Max. train speed posted by John on December 21, 1997
    at 21:20:08:
    
    I notice that all trains that I've taken through a tunnel under the
    East River go pretty fast in speed. BUT, overhead on both Manhattan
    and Williamsburg bridges, the speeds of the trains that go on those
    bridges are SLOW !!. WHY ???
    
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NEXT>7323
PREVIOUS>7321
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Max. train speed
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:38 1997
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Posted by Bootsy on December 21, 1997 at 22:15:51:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Max. train speed posted by GarfieldA on December
    21, 1997 at 22:01:37:
    
    PATH trains arent' much better - from Exchange Place to World Trade
    Center is okay, and they go pretty fast between Harrison and Journal
    Square, but in Jersey City between Journal Square, Grove and Exchange
    --- S----L----O----W!!!
    
    
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NEXT>7324
PREVIOUS>7322
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Max. train speed
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:40 1997
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Posted by Steve on December 21, 1997 at 23:48:36:

   In Reply to: [8]Max. train speed posted by John on December 21, 1997
    at 21:20:08:
    
    The last time I made the trip, Queens bound, an R-68 hit 49 MPH. I'm
    sure that the R-46s do a bit better.
    
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NEXT>7336
PREVIOUS>7323
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Max. train speed
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:41 1997
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on December 22, 1997 at 00:53:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Max. train speed posted by Bootsy on December 21,
    1997 at 22:15:51:
    
    Ever watch out the front of a PATH train???
    
    You'll know why they go so slow if you do...
    
    Oh yeah, also, look at the trackbed and notice the wooden rails on the
    side opposite the Third Rail (TM). I think these are to keep the shoes
    on the other side from hitting the ground...
    
    Anyone know if that's why??
    
    Also on the way to journal square, note the "falling debri" signs on
    the old cantenary poles.... And the contace wire above from the bridge
    onward to Newark. When did this become PATH trackage anyway, and who
    (PRR???) ran the overhead and to where??
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7315
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:43 1997
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Posted by Andrew Huie on December 22, 1997 at 01:11:09:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's... posted
    by Adam on December 21, 1997 at 10:41:33:
    
    It's a definite possibility that the entrance in Macy's is behind a
    fake wall or in a service area. I should have made it clear that the
    entrance is no longer visible or accessible to the public, as opposed
    to obliterated.
    
    As for the usefulness of the actual entrance, it appeared to me that
    it only allowed people to access the bklyn-bound side. There is no
    crossover to the manhattan-bound side, nor is there any evidence of
    another entrance to the store on the Manhattan-bound side. It would
    seem to me that the connection did not seem that useful.
    
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NEXT>7375
PREVIOUS>7286
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:45 1997
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Posted by Andrew Huie on December 22, 1997 at 01:38:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL posted by Mellow One
    on December 21, 1997 at 09:05:59:
    
    Sorry, I finally understood what you were trying to say. It's probably
    a good idea not to describe the line that goes through the hell gate
    bridge as the 'harlem river line' since it's easy to confuse it with
    the harlem line.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7303
POSTER>charlie muller 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Happy Holidays
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:47 1997
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Posted by charlie muller on December 22, 1997 at 01:52:50:

   In Reply to: [7]Happy Holidays posted by Joseph A. Papa on December
    21, 1997 at 00:53:30:
    
    a merry christmas and a happry new year to all especially david
    pirmann king of the rails and subtalk. also may all your signals be
    green, all your tracks be properly set, and may no trip arms stop you
    short. also may everyone get a train without a full width cab, so we
    may see out of the window of the lead car, as we travel the rails into
    the new year.
    charlie muller.
    
    
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NEXT>7363
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Fernando Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Max. train speed D express between 34 and west 4
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:48 1997
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Posted by Fernando Perez on December 22, 1997 at 03:26:29:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Max. train speed posted by GarfieldA on December
    21, 1997 at 22:01:37:
    
    I remember as a young boy the R42's on the D line going between 34 and
    West 4 St. would move! When it hit the crossover it would seem as if
    the train was going to jump the tracks. When looking out the front
    glass on the PATH it seems as if the train is going to hit the wall.
    It seems so tight and confined, making the IRT look like standard
    railroad tunnels!
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7200
POSTER>Zack 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems-Questions,Comments,Idea
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:50 1997
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Posted by Zack on December 22, 1997 at 03:37:18:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems-Questions,Comments,Idea
    posted by Gary Jacobi on December 18, 1997 at 12:10:19:
    
    Why not close the bride to everything and dismantle the deck reinforce
    the piers and rebuild the deck with new high-tech materails?? and have
    the trains on a new lower level on the inside and pedristian/bike
    lanes on the outside. the tracks could be 4 tracks with computer
    driven interlockings to distribute the weight evenly on each side. so
    the bridge isnt overtaxed.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7217
POSTER>Zack 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet-New equipment purchases
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:52 1997
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Posted by Zack on December 22, 1997 at 03:41:09:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet-New equipment purchases
    posted by Fernando Perez on December 19, 1997 at 07:05:28:
    
    for the "hybrieds" look at Seattle's Breda buses. look how unreilable
    they were. i feel sorry for NYC. they might get good ones that Seattle
    can adopt for their unnel though ;)
    
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NEXT>7360
PREVIOUS>7316
POSTER>si2000 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Replacement
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:54 1997
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Posted by si2000 on December 22, 1997 at 07:55:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Manhattan Bridge Replacement posted by Larry
    Littlefield on December 21, 1997 at 21:05:33:
    
    You are still talking $Billions here, any ideas on how to raise the
    money without taxing the productive people and businesses in NYC?? No
    easy solutions. The basic design of the Manhattan Bridge will always
    be the problem. The trains running on the outer sides stresses the
    structure.
    
    
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NEXT>7334
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>SubHead 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line (no mystery)
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:56 1997
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Posted by SubHead on December 22, 1997 at 07:58:35:

   In Reply to: [7]"mystery" platform on 2/3 line posted by subway-buff
    on December 21, 1997 at 16:43:39:
    
    You passed the long-abonded 103 Street station. (There is a list of
    abandoned stations somewhere on this web-site.)
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7076
POSTER>si2000 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: "Transportation Justice"
DATE>Dec 28 18:18:58 1997
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Posted by si2000 on December 22, 1997 at 08:27:48:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: "Transportation Justice" posted by Chris C. on
    December 16, 1997 at 16:21:54:
    
    Tax, tax, tax! You can't just tax the middle class anymore. The
    massive middle-class flight of the last 40 years was fueled by
    ever-increasing taxes. Your tax suggestions are nothing more than
    another old-line liberal wealth-redistribution scene. Our governments
    must live within their means, like everyone else.
    
    
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NEXT>7335
PREVIOUS>7332
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line (no mystery)
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:00 1997
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 22, 1997 at 09:27:58:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line (no mystery) posted
    by SubHead on December 22, 1997 at 07:58:35:
    
    I checked this listing of abandoned stations on this site, and there's
    nothing listed for 103rd Street.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7334
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line (no mystery)
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:02 1997
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Posted by David Pirmann on December 22, 1997 at 09:34:29:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line (no mystery) posted
    by SubHead on December 22, 1997 at 07:58:35:
    
    Lets try and stop the spread of misinformation here. The guide you
    refer to doesn't mention a 103rd St. station. They might have planned
    to build a station at that location but they never did. Since the IND
    wasn't built until much later, it couldn't have been conceived as a
    transfer to the IND...maybe to the 9th Ave. El. So the question still
    remains, what is the "station-like" thing seen in the IRT tunnels...
    
    
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NEXT>7346
PREVIOUS>7324
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Max. train speed
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:04 1997
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Posted by Todd Glickman on December 22, 1997 at 09:42:33:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Max. train speed posted by Steve on December 21,
    1997 at 23:48:36:
    
    I rode the downtown #2 the other day. From 96 to 72 St. the Edo Speedo
    maxed out at 47. I also rode the A (known in my youth as the 'HH')
    from Far Rock inbound. Anyone who hasn't done the Broad Channel
    stretch is missing a real SubTreat. But wait for an R-38 instead of an
    R-44, so you can get the front view.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7275
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:06 1997
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on December 22, 1997 at 09:56:34:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYC Transit's Bus Fleet posted by Bootsy on
    December 21, 1997 at 01:09:14:
    
    At that time, I would agree that it was likely that 5950 was a Jersey
    Cruiser.
    
    Now there are many MCI's (other than Jersaey Cruisers) with electronic
    signs. Peter Pan has new 102DL3's (45 feet long) with them and
    Westchester County's Bee=Line has late 1980's MCI 102A2's (2 axle
    suburban model) also with electronic signs.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The truth. When will NYCT ever restore 6th Av-Broadway/BROOKLYN service.
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:07 1997
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 22, 1997 at 11:06:05:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: The trurth. When will NYCT ever restore 6th
    Av-Broadway/Brooklyn service. posted by Peter Rosa on December 20,
    1997 at 23:25:46:
    
    I think there is a misunderstanding here. I believe the original
    question is about when a train will run from Marcy Ave. (and east)
    over the Williamsburg Bridge, go into Essex St., then use the
    connection to Bway-Lafayette Station of the 6th Avenue Subway. This
    was used for awhile, but is now used only for emergency reroutes of
    Manhattan Bridge 6th Avenue trains. (I have been on a train that went
    up the Nassau loop into Essex St, then the motorman went to the other
    end and took it over to Bway-Lafayette.)
    
    Anyway, I don't know when they would use it again. I doubt they ever
    will unless Wmbrg Br trains get a lot busier. My personal opinion is
    that it is a pain in the neck for people to have to decide: Do I
    change at Essex for the F or do I wait for the (what used to be
    called) "KK"? So I don't think they will ever reinstitute that again.
    
    BTW, on signs created for after the "Big Change" in 1967, the "MM"
    sign said "6th Avenue Local", implying that Myrtle Avenue Service
    might go up 6th Avenue, but that was never implemented.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subways songs (Take the A Train)
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:09 1997
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 22, 1997 at 11:37:41:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Subways songs posted by Chris C. on December 19,
    1997 at 11:32:36:
    
    I believe "Take the A Train" is historically interesting for us subway
    folks in that it was written around the 8th Avenue subway first
    opened.
    Letter designations were a new idea on trains, since on the IRT and
    BMT only names and destinations were used to describe the train.
    Apparently this modern way of designating train lines captured many
    people's imaginations, and the song reflects that.
    
    Instead of saying, "Take the West Side (IRT) subway but make sure it
    says 'Bronx Park' or '145-Lenox,'" you could say "Take the (brand-new,
    complete with double-doors without pillars, 4 to a side, large
    easy-to-read signs, color-coded stations, [so-called] 'streamlined'
    express service, and brighter incandescent lights) A Train." Take out
    the parenthetical part and you've got great song.
    
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PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Christopher David L. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Lenox Av Invert Resconstruction Beginning 1/1998
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:11 1997
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Posted by Christopher David L. on December 22, 1997 at 12:31:58:

   Details of Lenox av 116 st Station Closing
    Service Changes and Reroutings--
    Weekday AM Services==========
    =Bx/Manh Peak Direction-
    2 SB 241 to Flatbush via 7 Av Exp (loc in Bklyn)
    3 SB 137/Bwy to New Lotts via 7 Av Exp (loc 137 to 96 st ) .there will
    be 11 trips from 148 st/Lenox Term to New Lotts frm 6 am to 9 am
    
    Bx/Manhattan Non Peak Direction (Northbound)
    2 NB Flatbush to 241 via Number 5 via Lex Av Exp ,,Exp in Bklyn except
    bet 8 Am and 9 am ,,bet 8 am and 9 am from Flatbush to 96/Bwy va 7 av
    exp (local in Bklyn_
    3 NB New Lotts to 137/Bwy via 7 av Exp (Local 72 st to 137/Bwy,,Loc in
    Bklyn
    
    WEEKDAY PM SERVICE
    Bx/Man Peak Direction (Northbound)
    2 NB Flatbush to 241 via 7 av Exp (Loc Bklyn_)
    3 NB New Lotts to 137 /Bway via7 av Exp,,(Loc 72 st to 137 st),,there
    will be 11 trips from New Lotts to 148 st/Lenox from 5pm to 8 Pm
    
    Bx/Manh Non Peak (Northbound)
    2 SB 241 to Flatbush along Number 5 route on Lexington Express (loc in
    Bklyn_)except approx 5 pm to 6 pm ,,at those times ,,frm 96 st /Bway
    to Flatbus h via 7 Av Exp'
    3 SB 137/Bway to New Lotts via 7 Av Exp (Loc 137 st to 96 st)
    
    LATE NIGHT SERVICE BOTH DIRECTIONS
    2 241 to Flatbush va 7 AV Exp (Loc in Bklyn)Reg Service 24 minute
    Headway
    3 Regular Service,,,No Sundays
    
    WEEKEND BIdIRECTIONAL
    2 241 to Flatbush via 7 Av Exp(Loc in Bklyn)24 Min Headway
    2 Supplemental Flatbush to 96/Bway via 7 Av Exp (Loc in Bklyn )24 Min
    Headway
    3 137/Bway to New Lotts via 7 Av Exp ..loc SB 137 to 96 st,,Loc NB 72
    st to 137
    5 241/Wakefield to Bowling Green via Lex av Exp
    5 Dyre Shuttle bet 180 To Dyre Av
    
    B U S E S
    extra M102 bet 116/Lex and 147/AC Powell via 116 and Powell Cove
    extra M116 116/Lex to 116/Douglas
    extra BX15 Bway to Lex via 125 st
    extra BX33 via 135 st
    extra BX19 bet Bway and 149/Grand CC via 145 st
    
    SHUTTLES
    110/BWAY TO 149/AC Powell via w 110 and Lenox (weekdays except Late
    Nights) L1 (non Peak Direc)
    110/Lenox to 125 /Lex (Non Peak Direction) L2
    149 /AC Powell to 135/Lenox ,present Bus Shuttle expanded to 24 hr 7
    days---L3
    149 /AC Powell to 145 /St Nich (weekdays ,,no late nites) L4
    
    This material originated from Staff Summaries Octo ber 197
    
    
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NEXT>7358
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>John B. Bredin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Public transit strike in Chicago?
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:13 1997
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Posted by John B. Bredin on December 22, 1997 at 12:39:56:

   I heard the absolutely strangest rumor this morning as I came into the
    city on the Purple Line: the CTA will go on strike tomorrow (Tuesday).
    
    There is no mention of this in the Sun-Times or Tribune or their
    websites, nor on the websites of the local television stations. There
    was a few weeks ago a taxi strike here in Chicago, and more recently
    some discussion by the bus drivers' union of a strike on CTA buses,
    but nothing was said since then, and nothing about striking the rapid
    transit as well (a different union, if I recall correctly).
    
    Anyone heard the same rumors? If it's true -- and I seriously doubt it
    -- the union would be cutting off its nose to spite its face! The last
    time there was a major disruption of rapid transit service in Chicago
    (the Loop Flood), people in droves took the Metra, and many never came
    back to CTA!
    
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NEXT>7343
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Christopher David L. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>B/C Northern Terminal Revision --implement March 98
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:14 1997
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Posted by Christopher David L. on December 22, 1997 at 12:44:53:

   B service revision
    M-F 6 Am to 9 AM ,,4 Pm to 7 Pm ,bet Beford Park and Coney Island
    M-F 9 Am to 4 PM and 7 Pm to 9 Pm ,,bet 145 st and Coney Island
    M-F after 9 Pm ,weekends,,and Nights,,no Changes
    Between Jan 1998 and March 1999 evening and weekends will terminate at
    57 st and 6 av to facilitate 63 st Line Reconstruction
    
    C Train
    M-F 6 Am to 930 Pm 168 st to Euclid Av
    M-F 930 Pm to 11 PM 168 st and the WTC
    Weekends (except Nights) 168 st and WTC (No Changes from the Present)
    
    A and C operations to 207 and Pitkin Yards
    B R68 to Coney Island and Concourse Yards
    
    all 8 Av on the Upper Level 145 st
    all 6 Av on the Lower Level 145 st
    
    
    
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PREVIOUS>7342
POSTER>Christopher David L. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: B/C Northern Terminal Revision --implement March 98
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:16 1997
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Posted by Christopher David L. on December 22, 1997 at 12:46:25:

   In Reply to: [8]B/C Northern Terminal Revision --implement March 98
    posted by Christopher David L. on December 22, 1997 at 12:44:53:
    
    
    added E-Mail Address
    
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NEXT>7370
PREVIOUS>7270
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Track map template (for those who want to draw)
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:18 1997
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on December 22, 1997 at 12:46:39:

   In Reply to: [7]Track map template (for those who want to draw) posted
    by Michael Adler on December 20, 1997 at 21:56:34:
    
    I think you are a gentleman and a scholar, and eagerly await whatever
    you can produce. I have drafted several versions of a second IND
    system, but having used somone else's base maps, I do not feel I have
    the right to put them on the net. I actually came close to asking you
    to do just this, but felt it was too much of an imposition on your
    time.
    
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NEXT>7381
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>SubTreat
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:20 1997
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 22, 1997 at 12:59:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Max. train speed posted by Todd Glickman on
    December 22, 1997 at 09:42:33:
    
    If you REALLY want a SubTreat, ride the Nostalgia Train when it runs
    to Far Rockaway. Nothing like the D-types speeding through the Broad
    Channel stretch. Bonus - no speed governors (or whatever they're
    called)!
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7354
PREVIOUS>7336
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Max. train speed
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:21 1997
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 22, 1997 at 13:06:15:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Max. train speed posted by GarfieldA on December
    21, 1997 at 22:01:37:
    
    Through all of the East River tunnels, the train is restricted to a
    certain speed (25 or 30 mph?) for most of the downgrade. After that
    point, the train gets all green signals (provided there isn't another
    train in front of this one). For that stretch, at full throttle and at
    downgrade, the train can accelerate rather nicely. Then the train hits
    the long upgrade and the weight of the train slows it down as the
    traction motors work their hardest to pull the train up the upgrade.
    By the time you've reached the top of the upgrade, the train isn't
    doing more than 25 mph.
    
    On the bridges you have the opposite. The approach is a long upgrade
    and the train is usually given all green signals so it can accelerate
    up the upgrade. Again, the weight of the train keeps the speed to 25
    or 30 mph. As the train gets to the center of the bridge, you've got a
    downgrade, and you don't want the train becoming a runaway on that
    downgrade! So the train is usually restricted to 20 mph or so all the
    way down.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7350
PREVIOUS>7252
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Three 3's are.... 14!
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:23 1997
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 22, 1997 at 13:20:09:

   In Reply to: [8]Three 3's are.... 14! posted by Todd Glickman on
    December 20, 1997 at 07:32:19:
    
    Yes, I can see it now on the R-110A's console .....
    
    ... The train is rebooting ... please wait.
    
    ... The train is rebooting ... please wait.
    
    ... Starting R-110A O/S V4 R20 .....
    
    General Protection Fault C000000005 detected in MOVTRAIN.DLL.
    The application is terminating. Not enough memory.
    
    Contact your service representative for assistance.
    The system is stopped.
    
    --Mark
    
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7253
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Auctions
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:25 1997
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 22, 1997 at 13:26:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Auctions posted by Adam on December 19, 1997 at
    17:11:43:
    
    I was at the last NY Transit Museum Auction and Tag Sale. I bid $50
    for the opportunity to spend the day with the crew of the Track
    Geometry Car TGC-II. No one counter-bid me and boy did I have a great
    time working on the railroad!
    
    I asked the Museum's education folks this past Spring, before the
    shakeups, if there were plans in the works for another one. They told
    me that the Auction doesn't bring in as much $$$ to the museum as one
    would think, and that it is a great deal of work to set up. So I'm not
    sure if we're gonna see one in the near future.
    
    At the auction, a "new look" GMC bus was sold for $950 and there were
    no bids (the opening one was supposed to be $3,000) on an IRT R-22.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Chris C. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge $$$$
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:26 1997
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Posted by Chris C. on December 22, 1997 at 13:49:45:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Manhattan Bridge Replacement posted by si2000 on
    December 22, 1997 at 07:55:24:
    
    I wouldn't mind seeing a few cent raise in the gas tax. This seems
    inevitable with encroaching environmental issues. I would also like to
    see the tolls raised during rush hours.
    
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NEXT>7437
PREVIOUS>7347
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Three 3's are.... 14!
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:28 1997
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Posted by Todd Glickman on December 22, 1997 at 13:55:26:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Three 3's are.... 14! posted by Mark S Feinman on
    December 22, 1997 at 13:20:09:
    
    You got it right, Mark... those were the EXACT messages from the
    R-110A when it "crashed" and was rebooted. However there were two more
    you didn't mention:
    
    Have a nice day, and thank you for riding NYC Transit.
    
    And watchdaclozindawz.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Update on Breaking Horse Stop
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:29 1997
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 22, 1997 at 14:18:43:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Update on Breaking the Guinness Record posted by
    Hank Eisenstein on December 21, 1997 at 07:04:18:
    
    I would think if a station was open during any part of the 24 hour
    period you would have to stop at it.
    IMHO I mean, check with Quinness...
    
    
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NEXT>7369
PREVIOUS>7320
POSTER>christopher David L 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: B and Q construction
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:31 1997
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Posted by christopher David L on December 22, 1997 at 14:38:39:

   In Reply to: [8]B and Q construction posted by Adam on December 21,
    1997 at 10:48:27:
    
    
    related to 63 st Construction
    January 1998 to March 1999'
    
    ref Staff Summary Oct 6,1997 ,,page 88
    
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NEXT>7485
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Private entrances (was Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...)
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:33 1997
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 22, 1997 at 14:57:10:

   In Reply to: [8]About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's... posted by
    Andrew Huie on December 21, 1997 at 03:07:15:
    
    Another interesting example of a private subway entrance can be seen
    near Track 1 at the shuttle (S) station in Times Square. The door with
    the name "Knickerbocker" over it leads into a lower level of the old
    Knickerbocker Hotel. Located at the SE corner of 42nd Street and
    Broadway, the former hotel is now an office building, with a large Gap
    store at street level.
    While I don't know when the entrance was last used, presumably the
    turnstile arrangement was quite different then - it's located well
    within the fare-paid zone.
    What also may be a private entrance is located at the 34th Street
    station of the B/D/F/Q and the N/R. At the downtown end of the
    station, there's a long exit corridor (outside the turnstiles) that
    leads to the east side of Broadway by 32nd Street. Just past a
    barbershop, at the foot of the stairs leading to the sidewalk, there
    is a locked metal door. Could this be a former entrance to the
    infamous Martinique Hotel, which stands directly above?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7346
POSTER>Fitz 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Max. train speed
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:35 1997
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Posted by Fitz on December 22, 1997 at 15:51:59:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Max. train speed posted by Philip Nasadowski on
    December 22, 1997 at 00:53:24:
    
    The wooden rails are called "Dummy Rail" and are used to prevent the
    contact shoes from scraping the cast iron "rings" that comprise most
    tunnel
    construction.
    Trackage between Journal SQ. and Newark was once PRR property. Hudson
    &
    Manhattan (PATH's predecessor) trains ran to Newark on these tracks
    under
    a trackage rights agreement.
    PRR once ran passenger service to the Exchange Pl. ferry terminal
    using
    these tracks and part of the present Conrail tracks around Journal Sq.
    Service ended about 1957 (I think).If you can find it,Cudahy's "Rails
    Under the Mighty Hudson" has a complete description of this service.
    
    
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NEXT>7357
PREVIOUS>7259
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: JFK light rail ...more info
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:37 1997
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on December 22, 1997 at 15:55:28:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by Danny on
    December 20, 1997 at 15:07:16:
    
    Federal Circle is within the JFK property. It used to be, and may
    still be a signed exit from the Van Wyk expressway. FAA and other
    administrative offices are located there, and it would attract lots of
    commuters who now drive, park and work there. This appears to be the
    major use of all existing airport-transit service, as opposed to
    Airline passenger use which is light at best.
    
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NEXT>7439
PREVIOUS>7312
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:39 1997
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Posted by subway-buff on December 22, 1997 at 17:28:02:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line posted by Zack on
    December 21, 1997 at 20:22:54:
    
    The platform was a wall paltform- no tile. As far as lights- just
    very, very slightly betetr than just tunnel lights. I do not know if
    there is a similar plarform on the Manhattan Bound side. It is very
    short- I'd say as short or shorter than 91st and B'way, 18th and Park
    Ave South. It is very dirty and there is debris on the patform. the
    stairs seem to be standard passenger concrete type stairs-not crew
    type steel stairs
    
    
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NEXT>7468
PREVIOUS>7355
POSTER>John B. Bredin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: JFK light rail ...more info
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:42 1997
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Posted by John B. Bredin on December 22, 1997 at 17:56:28:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by Gary Jacobi
    on December 22, 1997 at 15:55:28:
    
    I have heard this "few passengers take the train to the airport" thing
    a few times so far in this thread. I beg to disagree. I live in
    Chicago, not far from the Blue Line to O'Hare, and on the weekend, the
    line is thick with out-of-towners, identified by the "Michael Jordan's
    Restuarant" and other tourist-trap bags they are carrying along with
    their luggage, and by their loud comments on "sights" along the line.
    
    To be fair, many of the vacationers are coming into and out of the
    city for the day from their hotels by the airport, and get off at
    Rosemont (where most of the hotels are) as much as at O'Hare Station.
    But it still shows that the airport rail line serves not only to bring
    the employees of the airport, airlines, hotels, and warehouses to
    their jobs but to bring the travelers themselves into the city by
    train and not by car or taxi.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7341
POSTER>Alan Follett 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Public transit strike in Chicago?
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:44 1997
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Posted by Alan Follett on December 22, 1997 at 18:41:02:

   In Reply to: [8]Public transit strike in Chicago? posted by John B.
    Bredin on December 22, 1997 at 12:39:56:
    
    There's a story on the Tribune's website, dated 12/18/97, with the
    headline 'CTA faces strike vote by drivers union." The gist is that
    Local 241 of the Amalgamated Transit Union, representing bus drivers,
    will hold a strike vote on January 5. In addition, the story notes
    that the leadership of ATU local 308, representing rail employees, is
    expected to vote "next week" (i.e., the week of 12/22) on whether to
    authorize a strike vote.
    
    I found nothing later on the Trib's website, so I doubt that a rapid
    transit strike is really imminent--if it does happen, it would
    apparently be a wildcat strike. Possibly the rumor you picked upabout
    a strike tomorrow is based on some report that Local 308's executive
    board will decide tomorrow whether to hold a strike vote at some
    future date?
    
    The Tribune site is http://www.chicago.tribune.com; I then did a
    search on ' "CTA" and "strike" '.
    
    
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NEXT>7377
PREVIOUS>7280
POSTER>Alan Follett 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subways songs
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:46 1997
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Posted by Alan Follett on December 22, 1997 at 18:51:31:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Subways songs posted by Chris C. on December 19,
    1997 at 11:32:36:
    
    Can't give you a very detailed citation (any sense of connection I
    ever had with popular music breaks off somewhere around half-past the
    Andrews Sisters!)--but IIRC the late-Sixties song "Sounds of Silence"
    includes the line "The words of the prophet are written on the subway
    wall."
    
    
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NEXT>7407
PREVIOUS>7331
POSTER>Larry Littlefield 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Replacement
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:48 1997
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Posted by Larry Littlefield on December 22, 1997 at 19:13:50:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Replacement posted by si2000 on
    December 22, 1997 at 07:55:24:
    
    I have two thoughts on how to pay for improvements.
    
    First, in my work at City Planning I am charged with writing the
    economics section of the Annual Report on Social Indicators each year,
    including a comparative budget analysis. Therefore, I know that New
    York City spends less on transportation (education, recreation, etc)
    as a share of the income of its residents than the national average
    every year -- despite local taxes which are nearly double the national
    average. All the additional money goes to the nation's richest medical
    industry, mostly through Medicaid. Employment in the health care and
    social service industries has increased from 300,000 in 1983 to
    460,000 today, an increase driven mostly by government funding. If the
    city's spending on transportation matched the national average every
    year since 1983, it would have spent an addition $7 billion. And the
    state's spending patterns match the city. My solution? Offer the same
    rate of Medicaid reimbusement and the same range of services as New
    Jersey (we'll still spend more, because we have more recipents). Use
    the money to avoid cutting the poor off from cash benefits, and to
    launch a public works program for roads, transit, the schools and new
    parks. You'll gain fewer health care jobs, and perhaps even lose a
    few, but you'll gain jobs in construction. And the productive
    residents and businesses of NYC will get some benfit for their money,
    rather than have the health care industry get it all.
    
    Second, why do these public works cost so damn much. The Nassau loop
    cost $10 million -- thought of as a huge price at the time, but only
    equivalent to $100 million in today's dollars. The reconstruction of
    the Rockaway branch, including a new bridge and a ramp to the Fulton
    El, cost just $48 million -- $256 in today's money. Compare that with
    $700 million for the Queens Boulevard connection, an expected $800
    million just to rehab the rest of the Rockaway Branch to White Pot
    Junction, $5 billion for a few miles of the Second Avenue Subway, and
    $2 billion to connect the LIRR to GCT. If someone would tell me what
    the Christe Street connection cost, and when is was built, I can put
    that in today's money as well. I'll bet it wasn't $700 million.
    Morever, adjusted for inflation the average NYC construction worker
    earned more in 1963 than today. What is going on here? At these
    prices, if we didn't already have a transportation system, we couldn't
    afford one, but everyone else seems to be building.
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>7472
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lefty 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:49 1997
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Posted by Lefty on December 22, 1997 at 20:27:25:

   are LIRR,MNRR M-x type cars and nyc subway R-44, R-46 the same body
    design, just with less doors on the LIRR and MNRR ones?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Subway Externships
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:51 1997
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Posted by Adam on December 22, 1997 at 20:34:56:

   I was wondering if anybody would help me.... I am one semester away
    from graduating and I am interested in a career with the Transit
    Authority. But I'm not sure what job exactly I would be interested in,
    whether it be a motorman, conductor, station manager, etc. I know a
    lot of the people who are on SubTalk here work for the Transit
    Authority, and I was wondering if you could give me some feedback on
    which jobs are good and what they're like. Also, a lot of my friends
    are doing externships in their career fields over the winter break,
    shadowing somebody for a day in their jobs. I was wondering if any of
    you who work in the subways would be willing to help out a fellow
    subway afficionado and let me "shadow" you for a day in an
    "externship" of sorts. Thanks in advance for guiding me in a career
    choice!
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7328
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Max. train speed D express between 34 and west 4
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:53 1997
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on December 22, 1997 at 20:52:21:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Max. train speed D express between 34 and west 4
    posted by Fernando Perez on December 22, 1997 at 03:26:29:
    
    The Hudson Tubes were more interesting when the service was by the
    "black cars". No headlamps, and the same sharp curves, only done in
    pitch blackness. Signals approaching curves had DOUBLE repeaters, so
    the motormen had ample warning, and could slow to the proper speed.
    (Which in near total darkness still seemed breakneck.)
    
    When the PA-1's arrived and the view ahead was lighted, it just wasn't
    the same. Oh, for the good ol' days.
    
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NEXT>7365
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Max. train speed/ H&M
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:54 1997
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on December 22, 1997 at 20:56:37:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Max. train speed posted by Fitz on December 22,
    1997 at 15:51:59:
    
    The service to Newark in PRR days was called the "Joint Service" and
    cars were furnished by both PRR and the H&M. When the K cars arrived
    in 1958 some were bought by H&M and some by PRR (and carried
    Pennsylvania on the sides and the Keystone on the ends.)
    
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NEXT>7426
PREVIOUS>7364
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Max. train speed/ H&M
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:56 1997
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on December 22, 1997 at 21:13:24:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Max. train speed posted by Fitz on December 22,
    1997 at 15:51:59:
    
    The service to Newark in PRR days was called the "Joint Service" and
    cars were furnished by both PRR and the H&M. When the K cars arrived
    in 1958 some were bought by H&M and some by PRR (and carried
    Pennsylvania on the sides and the Keystone on the ends.)
    
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NEXT>7368
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway?
DATE>Dec 28 18:19:58 1997
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Posted by Timothy on December 22, 1997 at 23:20:09:

   Will commuter trains, such as the Comets and Silverliners used by
    SEPTA
    and New Jersey Transit, fit and/or run in a subway, if they had third
    rail
    contacts installed on them? I know that commuter train cars are about
    85
    feet long, which is longer than most subway cars, but are the cars
    about
    the same width and height as a BMT or IND subway train? The reason I
    ask
    this, is because I've ridden PATCO between Philadelphia and New
    Jersey, and
    I've noticed that the trains have more of a commuter train
    personality,
    unlike most subway trains. I've often wondered if commuter train cars
    have
    the capability of being converted into subway cars, or if commuter
    lines,
    and subway lines could run as a joint operation within a city's
    boundaries.
    Are there any rapid transit lines or systems, with tracks that are
    connected to regular railroads? Thanks.
    
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NEXT>7373
PREVIOUS>7255
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:00 1997
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Posted by Joe M on December 22, 1997 at 23:39:39:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test posted by Mark
    Greenwald on December 20, 1997 at 12:39:46:
    
    
    The link worked fine. I have heard rumors about possible a historic
    light rail link in Baltimore. Is there any substance or just rumor?
    
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NEXT>7371
PREVIOUS>7366
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway?
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:04 1997
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Posted by Adam on December 22, 1997 at 23:41:56:

   In Reply to: [8]Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway?
    posted by Timothy on December 22, 1997 at 23:20:09:
    
    I know that LIRR cars are compatible with the NYC subway system.
    
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NEXT>7372
PREVIOUS>7352
POSTER>Mike K 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: B and Q construction
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:11 1997
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Posted by Mike K on December 23, 1997 at 00:07:54:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: B and Q construction posted by Mark S Feinman on
    December 21, 1997 at 21:21:23:
    
    Mark is correct. That's the only thing it has to do with.
    
    Seems as if the concrete was improperly laid, didn't cure properly, or
    something like that (don't know exactly what). Either way, it will
    take all that time to reconstruct each track, while the shuttle
    single-tracks, first on one side, then the other.
    
    BTW: the shuttle is running to 57th/7th? I thought it would go to
    57/6th. Seems weird to run it to 57th/7th, unless the TA has some
    other electrical work they're not mentioning. Also: why don't they
    extend the shuttle to 2nd Avenue during the overnights so they can
    57th/6th open all the time?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7344
POSTER>Sergiy Pakhomov 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Track map template (for those who want to draw)
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:14 1997
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Posted by Sergiy Pakhomov on December 23, 1997 at 08:00:07:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Track map template (for those who want to draw)
    posted by Gary Jacobi on December 22, 1997 at 12:46:39:
    
    
    >>I think you are a gentleman and a scholar, and eagerly await
    whatever you >>can produce. I have drafted several versions of a
    >>second IND system, but having used somone else's base maps, I do not
    feel >>I have the right to put them on the net. I actually
    >>came close to asking you to do just this, but felt it was too much
    of an >>imposition on your time.
    
    I am not sure you are right. Maybe for you, possibly living in NYC or
    its vicinity, it is not interested to put various maps or schemes of
    NYC transportation facilities on the net, but there are many of people
    who love (like) railways (subways, trams, etc. - choose appropriate)
    over the world. Could you kindly tell us where we can get the
    information about the development one of the biggest transit object as
    it is NYC? For example, I am able to find in the library the books
    about the European transits and some of journals like "Stadtverkehr"
    or "Railway journal".
    As to me, it is very interested to follow the growth the subway. Thank
    for good maps on the net.
    
    --Sergiy.
    
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NEXT>7374
PREVIOUS>7368
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway?
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:17 1997
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Posted by Todd Glickman on December 23, 1997 at 08:55:55:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway?
    posted by Adam on December 22, 1997 at 23:41:56:
    
    But ADA would have a big problem with this one: The platform heights
    are different (50 inches for LIRR and 42 inches for subway I
    believe?).
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7369
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: B and Q construction
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:19 1997
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 23, 1997 at 09:01:24:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: B and Q construction posted by Mike K on December
    23, 1997 at 00:07:54:
    
    Both 57-7 & 57-6 were terminals at one point. If I remember correctly,
    the window of the dispatcher's office at the south end of 57-6 was
    tiled over. How are they going to dispatch trains in and out of there?
    Same thing at 57-7. Also, at 57-7, any opinions as to whether inbound
    shuttles will come in to the s/b express track to facilitate
    connections, or to the n/b plat, to facilitate n/b passengers going to
    63 St.? Or, could they pull in s/b, discharge passengers, proceed
    south and switch over? That would REALLY MAKE SENSE.
    
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NEXT>7394
PREVIOUS>7367
POSTER>Mark Greenwald 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:21 1997
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Posted by Mark Greenwald on December 23, 1997 at 09:47:23:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test posted by Joe M
    on December 22, 1997 at 23:39:39:
    
    Light Rail link?...what sort of light rail link? Off the top of my
    head, the only new light rail lines that the state of Maryland is
    REALLY considering is one connecting the DC suburbs of Bethesda and
    Silver Spring. This line would connect two portions of the Metros' Red
    Line preventing commuters from having to make the unnessaasary trip
    all the way downtown and out. As for a light rail link.....details
    please.
    
    
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NEXT>7379
PREVIOUS>7371
POSTER>Mellow One 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway?
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:23 1997
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Posted by Mellow One on December 23, 1997 at 10:01:25:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway?
    posted by Todd Glickman on December 23, 1997 at 08:55:55:
    
    When the first subway was built in NYC, there was some consideration
    to intergrating the systems. However, because the width of the IRT
    equipment was = to the Manhattan El but less than the RR and BRT
    equipment, any plans for that coordination were shelved.
    Even the original Brooklyn Bridge equipment did not match the BRT.
    The BRT (later BMT) did coordinate service with the LIRR on some of
    the LIRR lines before WWI.
    The BMT and IND equipment specifications were similar. That is why the
    extension of the IND to Coney Island was on the BMT Culver line.
    2nd Ave El IRT/BMT subway dual service on the Astoria and Flushing
    lines.
    However, the BMT cars were not full size subway cars. That equipment
    eventually operated on the 3rd Ave El.
    Another item to consider, was that the New York Central employed
    underrunning third rail while the subway used overruning third rail.
    The LIRR overruning third rail specs are similar to the BMT/IND line
    specs. Both the Manhattan and Brooklyn Els employed exposed overruning
    third rail. The cars had an overruning block slide as opposed to the
    subway tounge type shoe. Subway equipment could run on the improved
    elevated structures. However, elevated equipment could not run in the
    subways (in NYC). Wooden (El) equipment was banned from the NYC
    subways after the Malbone St Wreck on the Franklin St Line.
    Another item that comes into play is political boundries. You will
    note that the NYC transit system terminates at the City Lines. The
    railroads are usually chartered to run within a state and other laws
    allow them to operate across state lines.
    Trolley lines prior to WWI did operate across NYC and outlying county
    boundries and a few examples existed up until the end of the trolley
    era in the late 40's and early 50's.
    Have Santa bring you some NYC transit history books and enjoy the
    holidays.
    Merry Christmas and a Happy Surfing New Year.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7326
POSTER>Mellow One 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:25 1997
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Posted by Mellow One on December 23, 1997 at 10:21:44:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: In Memory of the 3RD AVE EL posted by Andrew Huie
    on December 22, 1997 at 01:38:22:
    
    One more item to stir up the pot.
    They could sill could get to the NYC Harlem Line track from the NYC
    Port Morris tracks.
    Have a Merry Christmas.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Chris C. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>January Fare break
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:27 1997
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Posted by Chris C. on December 23, 1997 at 10:22:28:

   It seems to me that the TA could give a fare break without using up
    the surplus. The January "free ride" is the first step towards an all-
    Metrocard system, eliminating the cost of producing, transporting and
    counting subway tokens. Not to mention the security of having a cop
    stand around while someone empties the turnstyles into a bucket.
    Increased dependence on the metrocard is the beginning of more
    extensive cuts in token clerks and overtime. Not to mention the fact
    that the pool of yet-to-be-used money held on Metrocards will increase
    dramatically as more riders use them and invest in greater amounts in
    order to get the free fare. This means that the TA will be holding
    much more fare money up front alowing them to earn intrest and/or pay
    of services and debts at a faster rate.
    I can't help but feel that riders should get the fare break in spite
    of the surplus not because of it.
    
    Any thoughts???
    
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NEXT>7440
PREVIOUS>7359
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subways songs
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:30 1997
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 23, 1997 at 11:16:13:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Subways songs posted by Alan Follett on December
    22, 1997 at 18:51:31:
    
    In the "Mole People", something about a subway train coming through
    the wall...
    Sophie B. hawkins' "D--n, I wish I was your lover" starts off with the
    distinctive clickety-clack of a subway train.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lou from Middletown 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SubTreat:D types
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:32 1997
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Posted by Lou from Middletown on December 23, 1997 at 11:24:56:

   In Reply to: [7]SubTreat posted by Mark S Feinman on December 22, 1997
    at 12:59:47:
    
    Or how about when they're speeding down the Fulton express tracks?!?
    
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NEXT>7508
PREVIOUS>7374
POSTER>Lou from Middletown 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway?
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:33 1997
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Posted by Lou from Middletown on December 23, 1997 at 11:31:52:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway?
    posted by Mellow One on December 23, 1997 at 10:01:25:
    
    Another problem is, of course, that most or all commuter equipment is
    longer than NYC B division rolling stock. The original idea of making
    the old Triborough System 10 ft wide was that maybe the Pennsy or NYC
    might be interested in taking over the system(i.e. BUY ), but as soon
    as it became the Dual System they relaxed a lot of the clearences, so
    I don't THINK an Arrow or M-1 could ever fit without extensive
    (expensive)refitting-however the MTA used the LIRR to speed test the
    R-44's when they were first delivered!
    
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NEXT>7408
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Xmas Day NJT HOB to Raritan
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:36 1997
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 23, 1997 at 13:46:25:

   Okay I have to travel via rail on Xmas day to Raritan New Jersey on
    NJT
    (never did this before). Can I take PATH to Hoboken for NJT?
    The Oct. 26th 1997 pax timetable says the Sat,Sun,Holidays every other
    train leaves there... Is it any easy transfer from PATH to NJT??
    
    Thinking Headend run on the PATH and first time ever trip out of HOB,
    nice Xmas railfan trip (even though I am going to the inlaws).
    Otherwise I'd go to Penn Newark and save $2.5 and change of train out
    of NYP (cost $3.50 more out of NYP, I'll take a buck off for PATH).
    Thanks for any info (and hoping the D keeps 20min headway Xmas).
    
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NEXT>7401
PREVIOUS>7345
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SubTreat
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:38 1997
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 23, 1997 at 14:15:17:

   In Reply to: [8]SubTreat posted by Mark S Feinman on December 22, 1997
    at 12:59:47:
    
    One way to get a terrific sensation of speed through a tunnel is to
    tkae an LIRR train to or from Flatbush Avenue. While I don't know
    exactly how fast the trains go through the Atlantic Avenue tunnel,
    it's definitely well in excess of what the subway can manage. And
    there's always a fron t window!
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Chris C 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Private entrances August Belmont
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:40 1997
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Posted by Chris C on December 23, 1997 at 14:21:45:

   In Reply to: [7]Private entrances (was Re: About the Hoyt Street
    entrance to Macy's...) posted by Peter Rosa on December 22, 1997 at
    14:57:10:
    
    I remember reading somwhere that August Belmont, the man who originaly
    financed the subways had his own private subway entrance at 42nd
    Street on the 8th Avenue line. I'll have to check it.
    
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NEXT>7386
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Tomothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Private entrances August Belmont + Mineola
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:42 1997
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Posted by Tomothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 15:01:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Private entrances August Belmont posted by Chris C
    on December 23, 1997 at 14:21:45:
    
    I think the entrance was around Grand Central Station somewhere, and
    was on the IRT. His private subway car was called the Mineola.
    
    Belmont would not have had anything to do with financing the 8th
    Avenue line.
    
    Does anyone know if the Mineola has survived?
    
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NEXT>7390
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>RJ service to Chambers St.
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:45 1997
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 15:07:14:

   When did RJ (RR 95th St. to Chambers St.) service stop? I realized
    suddenly that I didn't notice when it was phased out. That might be
    because I haven't lived in NYC since 1988!
    
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NEXT>7388
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:49 1997
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 15:13:08:

   Is there an all inclusive listing of which maintenance facility each
    type of subway car is assigned to? I know cars aren't assigned to a
    specific route per se, but I'd love to know which cars in general are
    on which lines. One thing I notice is that every time I visit my
    parents in NYC, I go to the 2nd Avenue stop on the F, and I ALWAYS get
    on an R-46. I HATE R-46's! (although their door chimes sound much
    better than the ones in Boston!) Do any other cars ever run on the F?
    
    By the way -- F in hexadecimal would be 16 in base 10!
    
    
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NEXT>7387
PREVIOUS>7383
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Private entrances August Belmont + Mineola
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:51 1997
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Posted by David Pirmann on December 23, 1997 at 15:14:03:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Private entrances August Belmont + Mineola posted
    by Tomothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 15:01:30:
    
    Check the Archives. This subjet has been discussed at length
    previously.
    
    The "Mineola" is at the Shore Line Trolley Museum in Ct.
    
    -Dave
    
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NEXT>7391
PREVIOUS>7386
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Private entrances August Belmont + Mineola
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:54 1997
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 15:24:27:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Private entrances August Belmont + Mineola posted
    by David Pirmann on December 23, 1997 at 15:14:03:
    
    Thanks, David. Archives are a great thing for those of us who have no
    short-term memory!
    
    Look -- I spelled my name correctly this time!
    
    TSS
    
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NEXT>7400
PREVIOUS>7385
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:56 1997
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on December 23, 1997 at 15:25:35:

   In Reply to: [8]Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor
    posted by Timothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 15:13:08:
    
    Steve had posted a list some time ago, but the F line currently uses
    only R-46 cars.
    
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PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Time on our hands
DATE>Dec 28 18:20:58 1997
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 23, 1997 at 15:27:11:

   In Reply to: [7]Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor
    posted by Timothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 15:13:08:
    
    Tim, you (and I) have way too much time on our hands! I remember RT
    Ops used to put out such a list as you suggest. What form it takes, I
    do not know, as when I worked there, we used DEC impact printers! If I
    can find one which I had from back then, I will submit it to this
    site.
    
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NEXT>7392
PREVIOUS>7384
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:01 1997
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 23, 1997 at 15:39:50:

   In Reply to: [7]RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Timothy Speer on
    December 23, 1997 at 15:07:14:
    
    RJ service went from 95th to 168th, via Nassau Street. I do not
    believe it was a long-lived service. The service to which you are
    referring was a branch of the RR, referred to by those from Bay Ridge
    who rode it as "The Chambers St. Express". It was a rush hour
    directional service. The side route signs currently in place on
    R32s/38s have a reading which would allow for this service, with the
    "R" appearing as a black letter on a yellow diamond.
    
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PREVIOUS>7387
POSTER>Chris C. 
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SUBJECT>Re: Private entrances August Belmont + Mineola
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:02 1997
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Posted by Chris C. on December 23, 1997 at 15:41:18:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Private entrances August Belmont + Mineola posted
    by Tomothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 15:01:30:
    
    You're right, I wasn't thinking clearly.
    As I remember, the line had something to do with a connection to
    Belmont Park.
    
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NEXT>7393
PREVIOUS>7390
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:05 1997
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on December 23, 1997 at 15:46:54:

   In Reply to: [8]RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Timothy Speer on
    December 23, 1997 at 15:07:14:
    
    Not sure about the exact time that RR service to Chambers was
    discontinued, but I don't think it lasted into the late eighties. It
    may have stopped in the early to mid eighties. The RJ service hasn't
    been around since the 1960's ???. I was only a toddler in the late
    1960's, but I do remember seeing it on an old subway map. I think it
    operated from 168th Street Jamaica to 95th St, Brooklyn.
    
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NEXT>7395
PREVIOUS>7392
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:07 1997
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 23, 1997 at 15:55:32:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Charles Fiori
    on December 23, 1997 at 15:39:50:
    
    That's how I remember it too. The RJ designation was used for maybe a
    year. It was too much trouble to have that designation for maybe six
    trains per rush hour. But the RR-Chambers was used for a number of
    years during the entire time that Brighton locals went up Nassau
    Street (QJ and M). It was stopped, I believe, when the M started going
    to the West End line, instead of the Brighton line.
    
    Hope this helps too. I was one month shy of 17 when the big change
    (Chrystie St. connection) occurred in 1967.
    
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NEXT>7402
PREVIOUS>7373
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:09 1997
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Posted by Joe M on December 23, 1997 at 18:07:31:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test posted by Mark
    Greenwald on December 23, 1997 at 09:47:23:
    
    
    A historic shuttle using streecars in the harbor area like New Orleans
    or Seattle is the rumble I heard. May be a museum group not the
    transit authority.
    
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NEXT>7396
PREVIOUS>7393
POSTER>david vartanoff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:11 1997
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Posted by david vartanoff on December 23, 1997 at 18:48:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Charles Fiori
    on December 23, 1997 at 15:39:50:
    
    i believe a check of the data will show the 'northerly or easterly'
    terminal was 169 th street &Jamaica for the RJ indeed this was the
    sucessor to the "bankers special" pre Chrystie St. It is tyruly sad
    that the express services of that era (NX, F express in Bklyn, etc.
    are gone.
    
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NEXT>7399
PREVIOUS>7395
POSTER>Mike B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:13 1997
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Posted by Mike B on December 23, 1997 at 19:56:32:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Wayne Johnson
    on December 23, 1997 at 15:46:54:
    
    The RJ, JJ and QJ were all created after the 1967 changeover. All 3
    ran from 168th Street-Jamaica. The RJ ran to 95th street, the QJ to
    Brighton Beach, and the JJ ran to Broad Street in Manhattan. I believe
    the RJ and JJ was discontinued in 1968. The QJ ran for quite awhile.
    When the RJ went away, a dual RR service was started. The normal RR
    which ran from 95th Street to Astoria at all times, and the Nassau
    Street RR which ran from 95th Street to Chambers Street-Nassau. I
    don't remember when the Nassau Street RR was discontinued, but I think
    it coincided with moving the M from the Brighton to the West-End/4th
    Avenue Line.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7296
POSTER>carl margolies 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Brooklyn Bridge Rails
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:14 1997
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Posted by carl margolies on December 23, 1997 at 21:16:53:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Brooklyn Bridge Rails posted by Lou from
    Middletown on December 21, 1997 at 14:43:20:
    
    Except that the rails weren't really removed. The various trolley
    lines that traversed the bridge with the El lines used the same
    roadway as the private autos. When the Els were discontinued over the
    bridge, the trolley tracks then began using the El tracks. This
    arrangement lasted from 1944 to March of 1950.
    
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NEXT>7406
PREVIOUS>7283
POSTER>Andrew Byler 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Aqeduct Race Track Sta ( was RE:Update on Breaking the Guinness Record )
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:17 1997
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Posted by Andrew Byler on December 23, 1997 at 21:25:35:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Aqeduct Race Track Sta ( was RE:Update on Breaking
    the Guinness Record ) posted by subway-buff on December 21, 1997 at
    07:13:47:
    
    I've been following this line for a while, and thought had mentioned
    this before, but I guess I hadn't.
    
    The rules for breaking the subway record involve travelling every
    route mile of the subway. Thus, for example, one need only ride the
    Fulton line once on the A express - you don't need to get off at every
    station (which would take forever), and you don't have to ride the C
    local also.
    
    However, this also means that you must hit certain portions of line at
    certain times - i.e. the M must be ridden through to S. Brooklyn to
    get that little bit of tunnel below Broad St., and the 5 must be
    ridden up from 149th St. onto Lexington Ave.
    
    Thankfully, this also means that portions now out of service don't
    have to be ridden (such as the Rockaway's wye track, which used to
    necessitate record breakers riding out there in the middle of the
    night).
    
    Previous record holders have started at Pelham Bay Park riding an
    inbound 6 express - I think this is a wise choice. They used to end
    out in Jamaica on the J, which was the other isolated end of the
    system. Now that the E and J are joined, we have many new options and
    should be able to signifcantly cut the travel time needed. A note of
    caution - the MIT computer geeks decided to start at Times Square with
    their fancy linear algebra solution routing - and ended up looking
    very stupid by about 65 minutes.
    
    Andy Byler
    
    
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NEXT>7424
PREVIOUS>7396
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:19 1997
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 21:45:39:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Mike B on
    December 23, 1997 at 19:56:32:
    
    Didn't the JJ run to Rockaway Parkway as well?
    
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NEXT>7411
PREVIOUS>7388
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:24 1997
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Posted by Steve on December 23, 1997 at 21:48:14:

   In Reply to: [8]Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor
    posted by Timothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 15:13:08:
    
    Things have changed since the last time I posted this list. I'm doing
    it from memory but here it is - I think.
    
    A ..... R-44, R-38, R-110B *
    B ..... R-68A (soon R-40s I think)*
    C ..... R-32, R-38 (Soon R-44 for OPTO) Another reason for the B/C
    swap)
    D ..... R-68*
    E ..... R-32, R-46 occassionally*
    F ..... R-46*
    G ..... R-46 (6 cars) R-32 (8-cars)
    J/Z ..... R-42 or R-40M (8 cars)
    L ..... R-40s or R-42 (8 cars)
    M ..... R-40M or R-42 (8 cars)
    N ..... R-32 or R-68 *
    Q ..... R-40S (soon to be R-68A)*
    R ..... R-32, R-46 *
    FS .... R-68 (2 Car)
    
    The * indicates a 600 foot train, either 8 75' cars or 10 60' cars
    I will not venture to guess at the IRT
    
    
    
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NEXT>7415
PREVIOUS>7381
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SubTreat
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:26 1997
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Posted by Steve on December 23, 1997 at 22:30:31:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: SubTreat posted by Peter Rosa on December 23, 1997
    at 14:15:17:
    
    I believe that the MAS (max allowable speed) is 70 in that area. Too
    bad it isn't slower because there are some very interesting spots on
    the line. There's the abandoned Woodhaven Station and the connection
    with the Line to the Rockaways, which is boarded over...
    
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NEXT>7448
PREVIOUS>7394
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:28 1997
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on December 23, 1997 at 23:45:00:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test posted by Joe M
    on December 23, 1997 at 18:07:31:
    
    Sorry to burst any historic bubbles, but the Inner Harbor Streetcar
    Project is just a dream at this point (12/23/1997). There is no
    support from the city (and at times downright hostility). Equipment is
    another problem, there is a limited connection to the Baltimore
    Streetcar Museum, but no BSM cars would be used. Replica historic cars
    run in the 100K range. Also the local MTA is studying a possible Pratt
    Steet link to the newly opened Penn Station branch. (Guilford
    Ave/President St/Pratt St. to Howard).
    
    Personally, I do not expect to see an Historic (like McKinney Ave. in
    Dallas) streetcar line in Baltimore's Inner Harbor in my lifetime.
    
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NEXT>7405
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Albert 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>18th Street Station
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:32 1997
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Posted by Albert on December 24, 1997 at 01:47:42:

   I sometimes pass by the old 18th Street station -4,5,6 line-. I
    faintly see the stairs or exit. I also go to college down the block on
    18th Street, between Park and Lex Aves. My question is where exactly
    was the entrances to this station? Sometimes when I pass by this
    corner I try to make out where an entrance was. If it was where an
    entrance is normally, they did a good job of erasing any signs of such
    an entrance. Are there any telltale marks of a prior entrance to the
    old 18th St. Station.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7301
POSTER>Albert 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: ENTERING CITY HALL STATION
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:35 1997
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Posted by Albert on December 24, 1997 at 02:17:43:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: ENTERING CITY HALL STATION posted by Peter Rosa on
    December 21, 1997 at 17:19:15:
    
    The conductors should be allowed to announce, when the 6 train stops
    at Brooklyn Bridge Station, is "This train is making a turn-around to
    return uptown, passengers wishing to go uptown may remain on this
    train". I can just imagine the look on everyone's face as the 6 train
    makes that huge turn around the loop and then seeing the City Hall
    Station especially if its lit up. I know I would definately stay on
    for the ride. I bet not that many people who use the 6 train know
    about this loop at the end of the line. The MTA should also post
    advertisements on the 6 train allowing passengers to ride the train
    around the loop if they wanted to. Maybe the ads could be tied in with
    those ads for the Transit Museum.
    
    
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NEXT>7409
PREVIOUS>7403
POSTER>Bob A 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 18th Street Station
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:37 1997
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Posted by Bob A on December 24, 1997 at 08:25:10:

   In Reply to: [7]18th Street Station posted by Albert on December 24,
    1997 at 01:47:42:
    
    I used to work in that area in the early 70's and, even back then,
    there seemed to be no trace of where the entrance might have been.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7398
POSTER>Bob A 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Aqeduct Race Track Sta ( was RE:Update on Breaking the Guinness Record )
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:39 1997
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Posted by Bob A on December 24, 1997 at 08:35:16:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Aqeduct Race Track Sta ( was RE:Update on Breaking
    the Guinness Record ) posted by Andrew Byler on December 23, 1997 at
    21:25:35:
    
    Don't forget the City Hall Loop, if that section is now considered to
    be in revenue service.
    
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NEXT>7433
PREVIOUS>7360
POSTER>Mike Rothenberg 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Replacement
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:40 1997
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Posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 24, 1997 at 08:58:23:

   In Reply to: [8]Manhattan Bridge Replacement posted by Larry
    Littlefield on December 21, 1997 at 21:05:33:
    
    Compliments to Larry for an interesting concept. I'm not sure I
    understand what "flyover" means but assume it means new connections
    between sets of subway tracks that just cross over each other (the
    currently-unused Delancy St. (J/Z/M) line connection to the F tracks
    in Manhattan would be an example, I guess).
    
    Making more efficient use of the Cranberry and Rutgers tunnels, as he
    suggests, should be examined. Though billions of $$ may have been
    poured into the partial white-elephant 63rd St. tunnel & Queens Blvd.
    connection, the cost to implement his suggestion should be much less.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7380
POSTER>Mike K 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Xmas Day NJT HOB to Raritan
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:42 1997
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Posted by Mike K on December 24, 1997 at 08:58:52:

   In Reply to: [8]Xmas Day NJT HOB to Raritan posted by Lou from
    Brooklyn on December 23, 1997 at 13:46:25:
    
    Very easy transfer at Hoboken. The station is up a flight of stairs. I
    believe you need to use the stairs in the middle of the station.
    
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NEXT>7414
PREVIOUS>7405
POSTER>Bill from S.I. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 18th Street Station
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:44 1997
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Posted by Bill from S.I. on December 24, 1997 at 09:30:27:

   In Reply to: [7]18th Street Station posted by Albert on December 24,
    1997 at 01:47:42:
    
    
    There should be something on the south east corner, on 18th St. off of
    Park Ave. South next to the buliding. I know they had it opened when
    they had that derailment in that area a few years back.
    
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NEXT>7447
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: RJ service to Chambers St. (One more time)
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:46 1997
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 24, 1997 at 09:34:46:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by david
    vartanoff on December 23, 1997 at 18:48:24:
    
    The terminal was 168th St. and Jamaica Avenue, not 169th St.
    
    The RJ was a local from 95th to 168 St. It was probably too much
    trouble to run it all the way through Northern Bklyn and Queens, so
    after a year they changed it to an RR branch (again all local) from
    95th St (Fort Hamilton) to Chambers St. Once the M got moved to the
    West End, the RR Special was no longer needed.
    
    Going back real far to the late 1950s and early 1960s, there was a
    special train on the Brighton line (every 3rd Brighton Express) called
    the M (once they used new trains and having nothing to do with the
    Myrtle Avenue line) which ran from Coney Island to Chambers St. via
    the tunnel in the morning rush, and back to Broooklyn via the tunnel
    in the evening rush. This was never listed on signs nor on subway maps
    that the NYCTA put out, but it was there. I'd see it in the evenings a
    lot of times. My aunt took it to Broad and Wall every day for years. I
    remember her even saying at Thanksgiving when the Big Change took
    place, "It's easy for me; I used to take the M, now I take the QJ."
    They only ran for about an hour each rush hour period.
    
    BTW, in the 50s, before it was actually called the M, the BMT
    standards were used for it. I remember this because all Brighton
    Expresses via Bridge were the triplex single-door cars (2 to a side),
    and all Brighton locals and Chambers St. tunnel Brighton expresses
    used the Standards.
    
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NEXT>7413
PREVIOUS>7400
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:47 1997
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on December 24, 1997 at 09:34:49:

   In Reply to: [8]Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor
    posted by Timothy Speer on December 23, 1997 at 15:13:08:
    
    Here is the list for IRT lines....
    
    1/9 R-62A
    2 R-33, R-110A (Somtimes R-26/28, 29)
    3 R-62A
    4 R-62, R-33
    5 R-26/28, R-29, R-62A (OPTO), Occasionally R-33
    6 R-26/28, R-29, R-62A, and a few mainline R-36
    7 R-33 (single unit), R-36
    S R-62A
    
    
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NEXT>7416
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Morning Ride from Hell X 2
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:49 1997
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 24, 1997 at 09:51:47:

   I had a ride from hell this morning and my wife had one too.
    Stillwell 0648 F went BIE three (3) times. Yes 3 times, I think the
    boys at command went on a Xmas vacation early. This train should have
    been discharged and taken out of service after the 2nd time the breaks
    went into emergency. I know people complain about the G but I think
    the F is one of the worse Brooklyn Trains... F was for FOREVER this
    morning.
    
    To top things off my wife was coming from her folks house on the
    Staten Island X6 express bus when a passanger died (near P.S. 42) on
    the bus. Pax were prevented from leaving the scene (to get on another
    bus) for a while and then it was SRO for some of them. My heart goes
    out to all involved in that.
    
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NEXT>7425
PREVIOUS>7411
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:51 1997
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 24, 1997 at 09:58:54:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal
    humor posted by Steve on December 23, 1997 at 21:48:14:
    
    I work right accross from Queensboro Plaza and can confirm that N has
    R68's and R32's but lately there have been R68A's (car numbers 5000 so
    I believe those are A's) and R40Slants...
    
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NEXT>7451
PREVIOUS>7409
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 18th Street Station
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:53 1997
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 24, 1997 at 10:06:14:

   In Reply to: [8]18th Street Station posted by Albert on December 24,
    1997 at 01:47:42:
    
    I've looked around the intersection of Park Avenue South and 18th
    Street for any traces of the station entrances, but haven't found
    anything. Most likely any evidence was gone once the sidewalks in the
    area were redone.
    
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NEXT>7474
PREVIOUS>7401
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SubTreat
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:55 1997
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 24, 1997 at 10:08:40:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: SubTreat posted by Steve on December 23, 1997 at
    22:30:31:
    
    It's possible to get a quick glimpse of the old Woodhaven station from
    Flatbush Avenue trains. I had thought, however, that there was no
    physical track connection from the Atlantic Avenue tunnel to the
    Rockaway Line ...
    
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NEXT>7418
PREVIOUS>7412
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Morning Ride from Hell X 2
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:57 1997
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 24, 1997 at 10:10:43:

   In Reply to: [8]Morning Ride from Hell X 2 posted by Lou from Brooklyn
    on December 24, 1997 at 09:51:47:
    
    Heck, the subways always have a big problem with "sick passengers,"
    now it sounds like the buses get screwed up with *dead* passengers :-)
    
    
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NEXT>7509
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Aqeduct Race Track City Hall Loop and Bowling Green
DATE>Dec 28 18:21:59 1997
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 24, 1997 at 10:21:22:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Aqeduct Race Track Sta ( was RE:Update on Breaking
    the Guinness Record ) posted by Bob A on December 24, 1997 at
    08:35:16:
    
    Okay if City Hall loop is in revenue service, how bout the bowling
    green/southferry loop they turn the #5's on during non rush hour, are
    they in revenue service??
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7416
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Morning Ride from Hell X 2
DATE>Dec 28 18:22:01 1997
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 24, 1997 at 10:41:09:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Morning Ride from Hell X 2 posted by Peter Rosa on
    December 24, 1997 at 10:10:43:
    
    Shared my grief with co worker and he said the reason the bus was
    Standing Room Only (SRO) is because no one wanted to sit next to the
    dead guy!!
    Cheered me up!
    
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NEXT>7420
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Chris C. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>F Train Blues
DATE>Dec 28 18:22:03 1997
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Posted by Chris C. on December 24, 1997 at 11:05:25:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Morning Ride from Hell X 2 posted by Lou from
    Brooklyn on December 24, 1997 at 10:41:09:
    
    Lou, you're right on the money about the F train. Rush hour is usually
    okay but late at night and in the daytime it takes forever. Lately
    rush hour has been as bad as normal F service. If I hear that stupid
    woman at West 4th come on the PA with her robot voice and say 'there
    is a Brooklyn bound F train leaving 42nd street', one more time I'm
    going to SCREAM!!! Also, I would like to know why the F Train is
    always hip-deep in trash!!! It is, by far, the dirtiest train in New
    York. This is a simply request for basic service, it's not like I'm
    asking for a Herculean improvement like a transfer tunnel for the
    uptown #6 at Bleeker street. If F doesn't stand for fast, what could
    it possibly stand for????
    
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NEXT>7421
PREVIOUS>7419
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: F Train Blues
DATE>Dec 28 18:22:05 1997
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 24, 1997 at 11:46:57:

   In Reply to: [7]F Train Blues posted by Chris C. on December 24, 1997
    at 11:05:25:
    
    Ans: "I'm from the federal government and I am here to help you" &
    
    "There's another train right behind this one"
    
    Ques.: What are the most unbelievable statements known to humankind?
    
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NEXT>7493
PREVIOUS>7420
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: F Train Blues
DATE>Dec 28 18:22:06 1997
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Posted by Bootsy on December 24, 1997 at 11:47:21:

   In Reply to: [7]F Train Blues posted by Chris C. on December 24, 1997
    at 11:05:25:
    
    Yeah, well, in this case, 'F' probably doesn't represent the word
    'fast', but some other four-letter words . . . . .
    
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NEXT>7423
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>John 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>LIRR-Atlantic Ave tunnel
DATE>Dec 28 18:22:08 1997
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Posted by John on December 24, 1997 at 12:59:52:

   On the LIRR to and from Jamaica and Flatbush Ave, I can see the
    speedometer from my seat in the first car. It said 75. That is pretty
    fast for a off-peak midday train. Does anyone know more details about
    this? Are there other places where LIRR midday trains go faster?
    
    
    
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NEXT>7435
PREVIOUS>7422
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: LIRR-Atlantic Ave tunnel
DATE>Dec 28 18:22:10 1997
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Posted by Todd Glickman on December 24, 1997 at 13:28:28:

   In Reply to: [8]LIRR-Atlantic Ave tunnel posted by John on December
    24, 1997 at 12:59:52:
    
    Last week I saw 80 mph inbound from Mineola to Jamaica on the main
    line and also citybound from Kew Gardens to Woodside on the express
    track. (I think it was the engineers last run of the day; he kept
    looking at his watch and when entering Penna Station radioed for the
    location of the train for his ride home.) Also, if you're looking for
    a koool diesel ride, try the Patchogue to Babylon express; though I
    doubt it goes much over 60 mph, the bouncing is wonderful (!) and
    there are endless grade crossings. The (electric)
    Jamaica-Freeport-Babylon express can also be fun, but every time I've
    managed to get on one for a ride, the front two cars are closed (how
    rude!). I also recall that when the M-1s were new, riding at 90 mph
    for a brief period between Jamaica and Harold Interlocking; max speeds
    have since been reduced.
    
    Here in Boston on the "T" Commuter Rail, continuous welded rail and
    relatively new coaches [it is push-pull diesel service] provide a
    smooth a quiet ride (at least in comparison to the LIRR) at top speeds
    of 65 mph.
    
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NEXT>7430
PREVIOUS>7399
POSTER>Mike B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
DATE>Dec 28 18:22:12 1997
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Posted by Mike B on December 24, 1997 at 14:23:50:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Timothy Speer
    on December 23, 1997 at 21:45:39:
    
    The JJ had one Manhattan termonal which was Broad Street. The other
    terminals were either Jamaica 168th Street, Atlantic Avenue, Rockaway
    Parkway or Crescent Street (although I'm not sure about that one)
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7413
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal humor
DATE>Dec 28 18:22:14 1997
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Posted by Adam on December 24, 1997 at 17:26:16:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal
    humor posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 24, 1997 at 09:58:54:
    
    The N seems to be having many more R32's than last time I was riding
    it, in the summer. A few months ago, the N seemingly had all R68 or
    R68A's but every time I have ridden it lately, I have gotten an R32.
    I'm not complaining, though. I happen to like the R32's much better
    than the R68's. One of the main reasons is that you can walk through
    the cars. Does anyone know why they are locked on the R68's? I think
    it's unsafe and annoying to have them locked. What's the point???
    
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NEXT>7492
PREVIOUS>7365
POSTER>Serafin Jr 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Max. train speed/ H&M
DATE>Dec 28 18:22:16 1997
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Posted by Serafin Jr on December 24, 1997 at 18:23:44:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Max. train speed/ H&M posted by Dan Lawrence on
    December 22, 1997 at 20:56:37:
    
    Path max Speed on a Pa1,2 or 3 car and the K car are 55mph between WTC
    and Exchange Place. From Newark to Jersey City the Max speed for all
    the PA cars are 65mph the K are 70mph with a light wind on her back
    and if the Motorman needed to make time.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Locked End Doors
DATE>Dec 28 18:22:17 1997
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Posted by Steve on December 24, 1997 at 19:05:01:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Which cars run on which lines?; more hexadecimal
    humor posted by Adam on December 24, 1997 at 17:26:16:
    
    The end doors on all 75' cars are kept locked for safety reasons.
    Because of the configuration of the cars, on tight turns, the
    anti-climbers of any two adjacent cars move in opposite directions.
    This could be perilous for any customer who happened to be caught
    between cars when going around a tight curve. I have had first-hand
    experience in this situation and keeping the doors locked is a wise
    decission.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Brian Wolk 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>"Sorry...Wrong Number!"
DATE>Dec 28 18:22:19 1997
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Posted by Brian Wolk on December 24, 1997 at 21:18:51:

   Has anyone ever seen this movie? There are some great pre-1950 NY
    Subway scenes throughout it. It's about a woman hearing over the phone
    on a crossed line that she's to be murdered at midnight as the subway
    passes over on the bridge outside her window, so no one can hear her
    scream. Pretty thrilling. The movie is black & white and is based on
    an older radio play that aired in the 1930's.
    
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NEXT>7442
PREVIOUS>7218
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses)
DATE>Dec 28 18:22:21 1997
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Posted by Bobw on December 24, 1997 at 21:43:13:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses) posted
    by Michael S. Buglak on December 19, 1997 at 08:16:15:
    
    I've seen the Green Hornet you've noted. There are a few others still
    around here and there, I believe. I can't understand why SEPTA doesn't
    try to get one of them, considering the lengths it's gone to in its
    purchase of two older ACF Brill buses which will be restored and
    placed in its museum (one of these is a type which was never operated
    by PTC!).
    
    The only RTS still on the roster is 4459, which has been converted to
    a transport for Light Rail Operations track crews. A toilet has been
    added and it has been painted orange. There were a few others in the
    Frontier Division yard a few months ago but I doubt if any are in a
    sufficient condition to save, having been a passenger on them for
    their entire length of service on SEPTA. They weren't all that good
    when they first arrived, in my opinion, and they didn't get any better
    with age.
    
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NEXT>7431
PREVIOUS>7424
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
DATE>Dec 28 18:22:23 1997
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Posted by Eric B on December 24, 1997 at 22:32:25:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Mike B on
    December 24, 1997 at 14:23:50:
    
    Actually, the JJ that ran to Canarsie (1967 map) was really the KK/#14
    local. This was how it was designated on the R-27-38 signs, but noe of
    these had ever run over there at that time. The BMT Eastern div.
    routes were just officially lettered with the 1967 changes, and I
    guess they didn't feel like bothering with the additional letter until
    the following year when it was routed up 6th Av.
    
    
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NEXT>7432
PREVIOUS>7430
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
DATE>Dec 28 18:22:25 1997
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Posted by Eric B on December 24, 1997 at 22:38:27:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Mike B on
    December 23, 1997 at 19:56:32:
    
    The last map to show the R to Chambers was the 1985 map which marked
    the elimination of double letters. Then, with the 1986 Manhattan
    Bridge diversions, the M was sent to 95th, replacing it, but then they
    evetually moved the M to the West End, and didn't replace the R
    special.
    
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NEXT>7454
PREVIOUS>7431
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
DATE>Dec 28 18:22:27 1997
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Posted by Eric B on December 24, 1997 at 22:44:28:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Charles Fiori
    on December 23, 1997 at 15:39:50:
    
    The Nassau R is always brown, like the J,M,Z, on all signs made after
    1986.
    It was only yellow beforew then.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7407
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Replacement
DATE>Dec 28 18:22:29 1997
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Posted by Eric B on December 24, 1997 at 23:01:58:

   In Reply to: [7]Manhattan Bridge Replacement posted by Larry
    Littlefield on December 21, 1997 at 21:05:33:
    
    Interesting. I too had the idea of connecting the Bway exp tracks to
    Cranberry St.--on both sides (the tunnel is close to the Manhattan
    bridge approach tracks as well. It diverges from the Jay St/Rutgers
    line right near the propsed Rutgers connection.) This, plus the
    Rutgers connection would restore the full express service associated
    with the bridge, although with less capacity. Plus, they could do
    things like have the A-Brighton service they proposed a few years ago,
    without removing it from 8th Av.
    I asked TA officials why a Cranberry connection was not apart of the
    East River Crossing study, and they told me that construction would be
    too disruptive to the area. I guess, even though it is almost as close
    as Rutgers St, it would have to cut across through an area that might
    not ne as desolate as the Rutgers construction area.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7317
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Manhattan Brigde Project
DATE>Dec 28 18:22:31 1997
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Posted by Eric B on December 24, 1997 at 23:10:09:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: The Manhattan Brigde Project posted by Mark S
    Feinman on December 21, 1997 at 21:15:30:
    
    Unfortuately, as I've said on my posts, the plan now is to have the Q
    extend through the 63rd St. connection, (instead of an originally
    conceived "V") which would permanently fix it to 6th Av.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7423
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: LIRR-Atlantic Ave tunnel
DATE>Dec 28 18:22:34 1997
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 24, 1997 at 23:23:46:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: LIRR-Atlantic Ave tunnel posted by Todd Glickman
    on December 24, 1997 at 13:28:28:
    
    If you want to experience "bouncing" on an LIRR train, just ride any
    express through Mineola. The diesels are the bounciest of all. Dunno
    what's wrong with the track in that area, but it does do a credible
    roller coaster imitation.
    BTW - the fastest commuter trains in the NY area, as far as I know,
    are Metro North expresses on the New Haven line. They hit close to 100
    mph on a stretch of straight track around Mamaroneck and Larchmont.
    Some of the Harlem line trains get up to 90 between Chappaqua and Mt.
    Kisco.
    
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NEXT>7543
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mike Rothenberg 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Manhattan Bridge Problems - Need Ideas for MTA
DATE>Jan 5 22:01:46 1998
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Posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 25, 1997 at 00:40:03:

   The approach noted earlier by Larry L. & Eric D. (using both IND
    (Cranberry and Rutgers) tunnels with connections at both the Bklyn.
    & Manhattan ends) seems worthy of serious analysis. (Scroll down the
    listings to find their earlier comments on topic.) A criticism noted
    by one was that construction of the Cranberry connections would cause
    major disruption. This argument fails: construction of the long-
    awaited (and much longer) 2nd Ave. subway would really cause disrup-
    tions. If the city could handle that, the argument can't be used for
    the Cranberry connections. What do you think? Would it really cost
    a billion$$$ to build Crandberry/Rutgers? Any other ideas for MTA?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7350
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Three 3's are.... 14!
DATE>Jan 5 22:01:54 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 25, 1997 at 01:36:42:

   In Reply to: [8]Three 3's are.... 14! posted by Todd Glickman on
    December 20, 1997 at 07:32:19:
    
    I checked the computer for that day and this incident was not
    documented anywhere. Very odd !!!
    
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NEXT>7443
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>The Best & Worst Subway Lines
DATE>Jan 5 22:02:03 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 25, 1997 at 01:51:45:

   The TA uses 4 different sets of numbers to help determine which lines
    are the best and which are the worst. They are:
    MDBF ..... Mean Distance Between Failures
    OTP ..... On Time Performance
    PEER Evaluations
    PES ..... Passenger Environmental Survey.
    
    I'd really be interested in an unofficial survey of how you view the
    various lines of the system. A simple, Which one is best (or worst)
    and 10-25 words on why.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7356
POSTER>Zack 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line
DATE>Jan 5 22:02:09 1998
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Posted by Zack on December 25, 1997 at 05:46:11:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: "mystery" platform on 2/3 line posted by
    subway-buff on December 22, 1997 at 17:28:02:
    
    Could it be a Store room thing?
    
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NEXT>7449
PREVIOUS>7377
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subways songs
DATE>Jan 5 22:02:13 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on December 25, 1997 at 06:19:59:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Subways songs posted by Chris C. on December 19,
    1997 at 11:32:36:
    
    There is also the Broadway Musical (long closed) and it's signature
    song
    "Dont sleep in the subways",.
    One lione goes like this:
    Dont sleep in the subways darling, Dont stand in the pouring rain!
    
    [I dont know the rest- and even if I did I would not want ASCAP to
    come after me for royalties :-)
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Brake Systems
DATE>Jan 5 22:02:16 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 25, 1997 at 11:28:37:

   Many years ago, one set of R-44s were equipped with Hydraulic brakes.
    I believe the system was called ABEX. It was a miserable failure -
    especially when the train went over 3rd rail gaps, hence the train was
    'normalized'. Does anyone know of a similar ststem which is currently
    in use?
    
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NEXT>7477
PREVIOUS>7429
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses)
DATE>Jan 5 22:02:19 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on December 25, 1997 at 12:42:21:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses) posted
    by Bobw on December 24, 1997 at 21:43:13:
    
    I've been on a SEPTA RTS maybe once or twice a couple of years back,
    and if I can remember correctly, it seemed as though the bus's
    steering was very tight and that the driver didn't really have steady
    control of the wheel. Is this actually true, or did it just feel that
    way because the ride was so bumpy and the driver kept swerving to
    avoid obstacles in the street?
    
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NEXT>7450
PREVIOUS>7438
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
DATE>Jan 5 22:02:25 1998
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Posted by Nick on December 25, 1997 at 16:17:34:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Peter Rosa
    on December 25, 1997 at 15:42:08:
    
    Even thought it's very, very, crowded most of the time, I give the #4
    high marks. I usually don't wait long for it, and it seems to be a
    fast express train. If only there was a second avenue subway, this
    line would be excellent!
    The #7 is good too, except of course for the crowds. But I am looking
    foward to R-142's to replace the old cars...I think the line will run
    a little better with new trains.
    The G definitly sucks! I've waited up to a half hour for the train as
    well..and it's a boring ride all right. Also, I find that the R train
    is quite boring. It's a very long route, and it's a local. But It runs
    just a bit better than the G.-NICK
    
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NEXT>7445
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Nicholas Cartwright 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>NY Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:02:28 1998
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Posted by Nicholas Cartwright on December 25, 1997 at 16:18:25:

   Could someone tell me something about NY Subway, like is it anything
    like London Underground and I hope for your the people in New Yorks
    sake it is not like London Underground
    
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NEXT>7446
PREVIOUS>7444
POSTER>GarfieldA 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NY Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:02:32 1998
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Posted by GarfieldA on December 25, 1997 at 21:33:07:

   In Reply to: [8]NY Subway posted by Nicholas Cartwright on December
    25, 1997 at 16:18:25:
    
    The one and thing needed to tell you is: "It's the best !!". When I
    was in London about 2yrs ago and I rode the L. Underground, I said to
    myself that NY Transit is way ahead !!. The span of miles and large
    fleet we have as compared to the Underground.
    But one thing I really like was the commuter railroads which do an
    excess of 90 miles per hour and which also took me about an hour from
    London to Northampton..
    
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NEXT>7581
PREVIOUS>7445
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NY Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:02:35 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on December 25, 1997 at 21:53:19:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: NY Subway posted by GarfieldA on December 25, 1997
    at 21:33:07:
    
    It's hard to really explain the New York Subway -- to get a real idea
    of what it's like, you should come over to New York and experience it
    firsthand.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7410
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: RJ service to Chambers St. (One more time)
DATE>Jan 5 22:02:38 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on December 25, 1997 at 21:59:10:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. (One more time) posted
    by Carl M. Rabbin on December 24, 1997 at 09:34:46:
    
    Why was this service never advertised? Was it meant to be kept a
    secret for whatever reason?
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7402
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test
DATE>Jan 5 22:02:42 1998
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Posted by Joe M on December 25, 1997 at 23:45:54:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Baltimore Light Rail & Link Test posted by Dan
    Lawrence on December 23, 1997 at 23:45:00:
    
    Thanks for the news I had heard about it and wanted to know what the
    scope or poetential for a project was.
    
    Happy Hollidays
    
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NEXT>7603
PREVIOUS>7440
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subways songs
DATE>Jan 5 22:02:46 1998
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Posted by Joe M on December 25, 1997 at 23:50:11:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Subways songs posted by subway-buff on December
    25, 1997 at 06:19:59:
    
    
    I think that was a Petula Clark song from the 60's
    
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NEXT>7452
PREVIOUS>7443
POSTER>Lorenzo 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
DATE>Jan 5 22:02:50 1998
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Posted by Lorenzo on December 26, 1997 at 01:58:01:

   In Reply to: [7]The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Steve on
    December 25, 1997 at 01:51:45:
    
    My vote for the worst line would be split between the A, the E, the F
    and the R. The A train gets the nod because it's overrun by the
    homeless. Some of the cars smell so bad that they are uninhabitable.
    The E train is second for the same reason. In fact, the E seems to
    have more homeless than the A train. The F & R really suck. It seems
    that half of the trains on both lines break down more often than on
    any line in the system. The F train, is also filthy beyond reason.
    
    
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NEXT>7479
PREVIOUS>7414
POSTER>Albert 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 18th Street Station
DATE>Jan 5 22:02:53 1998
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Posted by Albert on December 26, 1997 at 02:34:17:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: 18th Street Station posted by Bob A on December
    24, 1997 at 08:25:10:
    
    Thank you Peter, Bill, Bob for the info. When I go back to school in a
    month I'll look for any traces.
    
    
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NEXT>7457
PREVIOUS>7450
POSTER>charlie muller 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
DATE>Jan 5 22:02:56 1998
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Posted by charlie muller on December 26, 1997 at 04:34:20:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Nick on
    December 25, 1997 at 16:17:34:
    
    the best for me is the d train on the late night sked. there are on
    time and no delays being i work 12am to 8am. i always catch the 10:34
    pm train out of bedford park blvd to go south and it is always on
    time. #4 train also as the d train if there are any delays on the d, i
    can always take the #4 train. also it goes by yankee stadium and hangs
    a left before going into the tunnel to 149th street. the worst is also
    the d train on the weekend going home at 8am. if one is missed on
    saturday or sunday morning for me at 47th-50th rockefeller station, i
    have to wait at least 15 to 20 minutes to go home.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Otani-H 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NY Subway (track map?)
DATE>Jan 5 22:02:59 1998
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Posted by Otani-H on December 26, 1997 at 07:23:27:

   In Reply to: [8]NY Subway posted by Nicholas Cartwright on December
    25, 1997 at 16:18:25:
    
    
    By the way, do you happen to got any truck maps of London Underground?
    Track map (physical map like those of on this site) I love it, indeed.
    What I'm mainly interested in is that if the Circle line train and the
    District line train run on the same track between Gloucester Road and
    Tower Hill, and if they does, how they are scheduled (and trains
    around Earl's court too). thank you.
    
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NEXT>7458
PREVIOUS>7432
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
DATE>Jan 5 22:03:04 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 26, 1997 at 08:15:08:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Eric B on
    December 24, 1997 at 22:32:25:
    
    The 11/29/67 map is really a trove of interesting subway historical
    perspectives. For example:
    
    1. Services to 168-Jam Av were the JJ, QJ, RJ.
    2. Myrtle avenue el was designated the 'MJ'.
    3. Third Avenue el was designated the '8'.
    4. Shuttle lines, which later on all became designated by 'SS' in
    green circles, each had its own color. (Lenox-blk; GCentr-lt blu;
    SoFer-dk blu; Culver-orange; Fkln-yellow; Dyre-green.)
    5. 57-6Av did not yet appear
    6. NX is depicted.
    7. TT is shown as a nites and Sunday West End shuttle.
    8. JJ ran 168-Canal SB AMs (skip stop), Canal-Crescent or Atlantic PMs
    
    1964 World's Fair map had letters for all IND services and BMT
    Southern Division services. Eastern Division services had just names.
    1. There was no 'B', just 'BB' which ran rush hours 168-WH/34&6.
    2. 'D' ran 205-CI or Church Ave.
    3. There was a Bway-Bklyn Local which ran pm rush only Canal-Crescent
    or Canal-Rkwy Pkwy
    4. RR ran 57-7/95-4 M-F 7pm-6am and all day SaSu.
    5. 3 Brighton Services: Q & QT ran "normal" hours (M-F 6a-7p), QB
    other times.
    6. 'TT' West End local is shown "Via Tunnel", with terms. Chambers
    (Nassau Loop)-Bay Parkway (Coney Isl. middays) Service hours M-F
    7a-6p.
    7. Though the map itself indicates a "Nassau Loop" service, the
    service guide does not show which line provides the 'through' loop
    service. (Interesting to note that the service guide on back says
    "Major Routes on the Rapid Transit System)
    
    (Note to Michael Adler/Dave P.: If you want to see/scan these maps,
    let me know)
    
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NEXT>7456
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>aaron 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Change at Ozone Park
DATE>Jan 5 22:03:07 1998
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Posted by aaron on December 26, 1997 at 08:40:38:

   I am trying to find a copy of this book about the Long Island
    Railroad.
    Can anyone help me?
    
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NEXT>7459
PREVIOUS>7455
POSTER>George 
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SUBJECT>Re: Change at Ozone Park
DATE>Jan 5 22:03:11 1998
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Posted by George on December 26, 1997 at 09:52:56:

   In Reply to: [7]Change at Ozone Park posted by aaron on December 26,
    1997 at 08:40:38:
    
    You may try the NY Transit Museam shops in Grand Central Station or a
    book store in the north wing of Penn Station. I doubt you will find it
    Barnes and Noble. Unfortunately the place that I would have guaranteed
    would have a had a copy is closed, NY Bound in Rockefeller Center.
    
    Good luck in your search but this is a good book.
    
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NEXT>7465
PREVIOUS>7452
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
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SUBJECT>Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
DATE>Jan 5 22:03:14 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 26, 1997 at 10:02:14:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Nick on
    December 25, 1997 at 16:17:34:
    
    You know what? The only trains that are never outdoors are the E, R,
    C, and 42nd Street Shuttle. All the others are outdoors at least
    somewhere.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7454
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: RJ service to Chambers St.
DATE>Jan 5 22:03:17 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 26, 1997 at 10:11:46:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. posted by Charles Fiori
    on December 26, 1997 at 08:15:08:
    
    There hasn't been clockwise and counterclockwise Nassau Loop service
    since around 1959 or 1960 when the already curtailed Culver line
    (Ditmas Avenue as southern terminal) changed from Nassau Loop
    counterclockwise to a 9th Ave-Ditmas Avenue shuttle full time.
    
    The only Nassau Bridge service I ever saw as a young fellow during the
    early 1960s were 4th Avenue locals that started at Chambers Street and
    went over the Manhattan Bridge to Dekalb and then to 95th St-Fort
    Hamilton. They maybe had 3 a day each way.
    
    The other Nassau St. service that did not go over the Williamsburg
    Bridge was the West End Local through the tunnel to Chambers St, and
    the special unlisted special Brighton Express trains that also ran
    through the tunnel to Chambers St (designated "M" until 1967).
    
    In 1967, when the Big Change was made, all this was superceded by the
    new scheduling and the Nassau Bridge service disappeared forever.
    
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NEXT>7463
PREVIOUS>7456
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
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SUBJECT>Re: Change at Ozone Park
DATE>Jan 5 22:03:20 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 26, 1997 at 10:23:56:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Change at Ozone Park posted by George on December
    26, 1997 at 09:52:56:
    
    If you pick up a copy of "Trains" magazine, there are several
    booksellers in there. One that rings a bell is "Rails & Shafts". I
    think he even somewhat specializes in NY area topics.
    
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PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: RJ service to Chambers St. (One more time again)
DATE>Jan 5 22:03:22 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 26, 1997 at 10:24:48:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: RJ service to Chambers St. (One more time) posted
    by Bootsy on December 25, 1997 at 21:59:10:
    
    My guess is that they only ran during the 7:00 - 8:00 hour NB and 4:30
    - 5:30 hour SB and only every 3rd Brighton Express train. Therefore
    there may have been only 5 per morning and 5 per evening. The West End
    local ran all day.
    
    By admitting in print that this relatively infrequent service existed
    might cause more disappointment than usefulness. Anyone going to
    Chambers St always went to DeKalb to change anyway. If the special
    came, it was an extra convenience. 4th Ave/West End people knew to
    just get off of it at Dekalb and get something else, since the West
    local always ran anyway from 6:00 AM to 7:00 PM.
    
    I realize I may not have written this clearly. To restate it
    succinctly: I think infrequent interval, short duration train
    schedules were just not listed in public printed material.
    
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NEXT>7462
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>janet 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Number of stations on New York Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:03:26 1998
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Posted by janet on December 26, 1997 at 11:13:20:

   School General Knowledge Christmas quiz time.
    
    The question is which of the world's underground railway systems has
    the most stations and how many? The London Underground has 272 but I
    haven't been able to find a figure for New York. Can anyone help me
    please?
    
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NEXT>7466
PREVIOUS>7461
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:03:29 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on December 26, 1997 at 11:40:49:

   In Reply to: [8]Number of stations on New York Subway posted by janet
    on December 26, 1997 at 11:13:20:
    
    The official figure is 468.
    
    -Dave
    
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NEXT>7505
PREVIOUS>7459
POSTER>sean 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Change at Ozone Park
DATE>Jan 5 22:03:30 1998
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Posted by sean on December 26, 1997 at 11:46:29:

   In Reply to: [8]Change at Ozone Park posted by aaron on December 26,
    1997 at 08:40:38:
    
    I bought my copy at the bookstore in the LIRR side of Penn Station.
    They have other railroad titles too.
    
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POSTER>Mike 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center today?
DATE>Jan 5 22:03:32 1998
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Posted by Mike on December 26, 1997 at 12:10:14:

   I would like to know if the old Hudson Terminal station still in the
    World Trade Center & if so, what is it being use for & one more thing,
    how did riders from both the IND 8th Line & the IRT 7th Av Line get to
    the old Hudson Terminal station when it was still there. Please post
    it.
    
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NEXT>7467
PREVIOUS>7457
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
DATE>Jan 5 22:03:36 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on December 26, 1997 at 13:33:07:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by charlie
    muller on December 26, 1997 at 04:34:20:
    
    Best (One of the best) I'd have to say the #7, because of it's great
    elevated express runs in Queens and in terms of service, it's an
    isolated line and it rarely gets delayed because of other trains. The
    only things it's missing is a fast tunnel stretch. The #2,4 & 5 also
    get high marks for fast express runs and elevated runs also.
    
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NEXT>7487
PREVIOUS>7462
POSTER>Janet 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:03:39 1998
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Posted by Janet on December 26, 1997 at 16:04:27:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by
    David Pirmann on December 26, 1997 at 11:40:49:
    
    
    Thanks a lot Dave, That really helped me. Only another 53 questions to
    go now.
    
    Janet
    
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NEXT>7469
PREVIOUS>7465
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
DATE>Jan 5 22:03:44 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 26, 1997 at 16:18:35:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Wayne
    Johnson on December 26, 1997 at 13:33:07:
    
    My favorite is the Brighton Express, the Q train, because it zips
    through Brooklyn on the elevated track that is not over a street, then
    into open cut north of Avenue H, then over the Manhattan Bridge. Of
    course, I spent my childhood 3 blocks from the Beverley Road station,
    so I guess my old loyalty is showing.
    
    My second best is the #1 Broadway -- for social reasons. All those
    out-of-town Columbia students getting on at 116 St, full of
    anticipation of a day or evening's outing in NYC. They are the
    happiest and most talkative people in all NY, it seems.
    
    I like the #4 from Utica to Woodlawn: fast in Bklyn and Manhattan,
    straight as an arrow on Lexington Ave, you can see Yankee games a bit
    from 161 St., and it's an elevated on a busy, busy street in the
    Bronx. Plus, it's got that IRT fast feel because it's narrow and loud.
    
    To me the J and M are the worst because of infrastructure. The J has
    that awful Z-shaped section at Crescent St. (It is -- unbelieveably --
    an improvement made in the 1930s or 1940s from the original structure,
    which was worse.)And the Bway-Bklyn el is just too old.
    
    The G should not be the worst because it is as new as most of the rest
    of the IND lines. But apparently the service on it is awful, according
    to postings here. That's a real shame because it just takes extra
    trains rather than reconstruction to make it as good as the other
    lines.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7357
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: JFK light rail ...more info
DATE>Jan 5 22:03:47 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on December 26, 1997 at 17:49:10:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: JFK light rail ...more info posted by John B.
    Bredin on December 22, 1997 at 17:56:28:
    
    If your observations are correct about the Blue line, I'll change my
    opinion, because I based it mostly on my own Blue line observations
    ten years ago.I didn't see any luggage being carried, which I felt was
    a sure sign of no airline passengers using the trains. Perhaps it was
    too new then.
    
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NEXT>7470
PREVIOUS>7467
POSTER>Sammy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
DATE>Jan 5 22:03:50 1998
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Posted by Sammy on December 26, 1997 at 17:50:04:

   In Reply to: [8]The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Steve on
    December 25, 1997 at 01:51:45:
    
    Steve:
    Nice to hear from you. Happy holidays.
    
    We know which is the worst. The G.
    
    Why? Its really simple. The MTA doesn't give a damn about the G or the
    people in Greenpoint/Williamsburgh. Bus and Train service is a joke.
    There is no reason whatsoever that the G should be terminated a Court
    Square at night/Weekends. The corridor between 23/Ely and Court Square
    is unsafe, and the long walk makes it all the more likely that you
    will miss your connection, especially at night.
    
    Hey MTA: Get your heads out of your collective asses and do something
    about it before Greenpoint/Williamsburgh start decaying economically
    because of a lack of mass transit.
    
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NEXT>7473
PREVIOUS>7469
POSTER>Gary Jacobi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
DATE>Jan 5 22:03:53 1998
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Posted by Gary Jacobi on December 26, 1997 at 18:07:17:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Carl M.
    Rabbin on December 26, 1997 at 16:18:35:
    
    The Crescent street zig-zag on the J/Z dates from 1893. The only thing
    done about it in 1930 and 40 was talk about eliminating it, not to
    mention in the 50's and 60's as well. It was originally a connection
    to street cars running on Jamaica avenue, which wasn't such a problem,
    but when they extended the El in 1919 East from Cypress Hills, they
    left it in!
    
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NEXT>7480
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center
DATE>Jan 5 22:03:56 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World
    Trade Center today? posted by Mike on December 26, 1997 at 12:10:14:
    
    Yes, it is still there. It is under the present station (by a couple
    of levels). It is now used for secure storage of prinouts and computer
    information for customers of DataPort (I believe that that comapny
    still operates the facility).
    
    
    
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NEXT>7729
PREVIOUS>7361
POSTER>A.pardi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
DATE>Jan 5 22:04:00 1998
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Posted by A.pardi on December 26, 1997 at 19:12:55:

   In Reply to: [8]LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46 posted by
    Lefty on December 22, 1997 at 20:27:25:
    
    From what i've been told the R44-46 contract cars were originally
    designed for commuter rail use(LIRR MNRR). If you look on the nyc
    resource website the state of the art car is the protype design for
    the R44-46 .
    
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NEXT>7475
PREVIOUS>7470
POSTER>a.pardi 
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SUBJECT>Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
DATE>Jan 5 22:04:02 1998
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Posted by a.pardi on December 26, 1997 at 19:17:51:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Sammy on
    December 26, 1997 at 17:50:04:
    
    You think its bad now with the G terminating at court square
    supposedly when the 63rd st connection is completed the g (from what
    i've been told) will terminate permanently at courst sq.
    
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NEXT>7481
PREVIOUS>7415
POSTER>a.pardi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SubTreat
DATE>Jan 5 22:04:06 1998
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Posted by a.pardi on December 26, 1997 at 19:37:20:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: SubTreat posted by Peter Rosa on December 24, 1997
    at 10:08:40:
    
    with and r46 consist on the r thru 60th st tube and no traffic ahead
    and timers clearing properly you can achieve 56-7 in both
    directions(also if you have no dead motors) With R40 or R68/68a on the
    N in both directions again no traffic ahead timers clearing properly
    and no dead motors 56-58 mph in both directions. Going northbound on
    the r you have the 11th street cut for Queens blvd speed should be
    reduced across the switch. i've flown across the switches a few times
    and most times queens plaza tower holds you for being ahead of time
    anyway. N northbound you've climbed the ascent to the portal and your
    motors are just about dead....
    
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NEXT>7478
PREVIOUS>7473
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
DATE>Jan 5 22:04:10 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on December 26, 1997 at 19:55:26:

   In Reply to: [8]The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Steve on
    December 25, 1997 at 01:51:45:
    
    I like the J for the elevated section. The view from the Willie B is
    tremendous ands I love the old fashioned light fixture(musuem curator-
    you reading this!!)which are going away in favor of new sodium vapor
    lamps.
    I also love the Old Myrtle El over Broadway Myrtle, Eastern Parkway
    Junction of J,L, plus A,C. The curve just past Alabama ave near
    Crescent street is fascinating.
    
    I also like the D From Manhattan bridge to Coney Island.
    
    The worst- the Central Park West and the IND Manhattan/Bronx (sorry,
    steve!) due to bland stations with no "ornamentation" such as is found
    on the iRT (My favorite Line( or the BMT). I am referring to the
    stations- not the trains being run! (Your cars are the best!!-even if
    they are not Lo-V Cars from the IRT :-)
    
    They are starting to remedy the bland IND such as Canal/8th ave and
    what they are doing at WTC.(I do like the IND metrocard fare control
    railings better than the IRT railings.
    
    
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NEXT>7483
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Larry Littlefield 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
DATE>Jan 5 22:04:14 1998
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Posted by Larry Littlefield on December 26, 1997 at 20:15:12:

   In Reply to: [8]Manhattan Bridge Problems - Need Ideas for MTA posted
    by Mike Rothenberg on December 25, 1997 at 00:40:03:
    
    Just to put this issue in perspective, the president and director of
    planning at the T.A. gave a presentation at my office (the Department
    of City Planning). Afterward, I asked them about the Manhattan Bridge,
    and they practically turned blue. They believe it is a disaster
    waiting to happen, but that there is nothing they can do about it --
    it is the city's bridge and it is responsible for fixing it. Why can't
    City Planning do a study which says how important the bridge is for
    Brooklyn's economy? they asked. To which I responded that the dust
    begins settling on our studies as soon as the leave the laser printer.
    They also take years to finish.
    
    For its part the MTA studied the bridge, and decided it could be fixed
    -- no need for another solution. That is the same decision Mayor Ed
    Koch made in 1986. After engineers said the bridge had to be replaced
    (expensive and politically sensitive), he hired other engineers to say
    it could be fixed for $100 million. The city has spent $500 million so
    far, and the bridge is rusting as fast as it is repaired. Millions
    will be spent. And half the tracks have been out for 11 years.
    
    Meanwhile, NYC DOT under (recently fired) Commissioner Lynn released a
    report which said the bridge could never be fixed. His concern was
    that running the trains over the bridge weakens it, and thus hurt its
    future ability to carry cars. Maybe we can run buses, he said.
    
    At the same time, the planning director of the MTA came to City
    Planning and said the LIRR connection to Grand Central is the MTA's
    highest priority. With added luxury service to Long Island and
    impending doom on the southern rim of Brooklyn, New York State's
    message to those working in Manhattan is clear -- get out of Brooklyn
    and move to Long Island. Most people I know who are moving out of
    Brooklyn, however, are moving to New Jersey.
    
    As to the cost, I ask again -- why are these things so expensive? If
    you assume that labor would account for half the cost and each worker
    would receive an average of $60,000 in wages and benefits (about what
    I get with a master's degree), then a $200 million investment would
    yield 415 people working for four years. Isn't that enough to build a
    simple connection and one thousand feet of track? And yes, building
    the Manhattan side of a Cranberry connection would be more disruptive
    than the other three. I can only hope that a rail will crack on the
    Manhattan Bridge some rush hour this winter, so people can get an idea
    how disruptive not fixing the bridge will be.
    
    I ask again -- can anyone tell me what Christe Street cost in 1967?
    I'd love to adjust it for inflation and put it in today's money. In
    inflation-adjusted dollars, the average NYC construction worker earned
    more in 1967 than he or she does today.
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>7520
PREVIOUS>7442
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses)
DATE>Jan 5 22:04:16 1998
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Posted by Bobw on December 26, 1997 at 21:42:39:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses) posted
    by Bootsy on December 25, 1997 at 12:42:21:
    
    Yes and yes, I think. I've never driven one (and I've never driven any
    bus) but I heard operating folks talk about the unresponsive steering
    on the buses. Also, the wheelbase was quite long, longer than any
    other 40' bus operated by SEPTA, and with some of the narrow streets
    and tight turns on many lines, drivers had to learn how to compensate
    in turning, etc.
    
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NEXT>7482
PREVIOUS>7475
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
DATE>Jan 5 22:04:18 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 26, 1997 at 22:44:08:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Carl M.
    Rabbin on December 26, 1997 at 16:18:35:
    
    I guess I'll have to speak up in favor of the under-appreciated L
    line. Fast? No. Scenic? No. But it is a reliable workhorse sort of
    line, providing the only service in much of its Brooklyn territory,
    and offering excellent connections in Manhattan - it connects to
    everything but the 6th Avenue expresses.
    
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NEXT>7488
PREVIOUS>7451
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 18th Street Station
DATE>Jan 5 22:04:20 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 26, 1997 at 22:52:10:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: 18th Street Station posted by Albert on December
    26, 1997 at 02:34:17:
    
    Glad to be of help. If you do find any traces of an entrance, please
    post the information here.
    
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NEXT>7486
PREVIOUS>7471
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center
DATE>Jan 5 22:04:22 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the
    World Trade Center today? posted by Allan on December 26, 1997 at
    19:01:06:
    
    Where did you hear that??? This is the first time I've heard it
    claimed that the station is underneath WTC. From what I can tell that
    original station was either *higher* or at the same level as the
    current station but much east (along the edge of Church St.). It is
    most definitely *not* UNDER the current terminal.
    
    If you can verify that it is being used as storage I'd love to know
    for sure. I would call them and try to arrange for a tour.
    
    
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NEXT>7484
PREVIOUS>7474
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SubTreat
DATE>Jan 5 22:04:25 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 27, 1997 at 01:03:11:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: SubTreat posted by a.pardi on December 26, 1997 at
    19:37:20:
    
    Last time I made the trip northbound on the N, we reached Queensboro
    Plaza at the astonishing speed of 17 MPH. I recently had an 8-car R-68
    (light) northbound from 161 St. to 167 St. on the Concourse line.
    Entered 167 at 22 MPH with 8 live motors.
    
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NEXT>7490
PREVIOUS>7478
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
DATE>Jan 5 22:04:29 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 27, 1997 at 01:51:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Lorenzo on
    December 26, 1997 at 01:58:01:
    
    The E and the R are popular with homeless people because they never go
    outside, and threfore are probably the warmest trains in the system.
    
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NEXT>7507
PREVIOUS>7476
POSTER>Subman23 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
DATE>Jan 5 22:04:33 1998
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Posted by Subman23 on December 27, 1997 at 03:15:36:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe posted by
    Larry Littlefield on December 26, 1997 at 20:15:12:
    
    You have touched a very political (yet interesting subject). I hear
    that restoring use of the H (Broadway) tracks have been pushed off
    into 2005.
    
    By that time the A (6 Avenue) tracks will need work on restoring the
    supports under the tracks.
    
    It is true that train traffic causes swaying and metal fatigue.
    
    I doubt that we will ever see use of both sets of tracks and fully
    restored service. The Manhattan Bridge is really an accident waiting
    to happen.
    
    Other solutions must be devised and enacted. Perhaps, your broken rail
    scenario would cause the politicians to face the music and prioritize
    this issue.
    
    Keep bringing up this topic. It is very important to the economic
    lifeline of Southern Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7481
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SubTreat
DATE>Jan 5 22:04:35 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on December 27, 1997 at 04:27:43:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: SubTreat posted by Peter Rosa on December 24, 1997
    at 10:08:40:
    
    Woodhaven Blvd on the surface is pretty interesting too. The old
    Rockaway line station is still there, but the stations entrances are
    boarded over.
    You can see why the station was abandoned though - there isn't much in
    that neighborhood.
    
    
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NEXT>7585
PREVIOUS>7353
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Private entrances (was Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...)
DATE>Jan 5 22:04:40 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on December 27, 1997 at 04:52:26:

   In Reply to: [8]Private entrances (was Re: About the Hoyt Street
    entrance to Macy's...) posted by Peter Rosa on December 22, 1997 at
    14:57:10:
    
    it is, but currently is is being used as some kind of service entrance
    for the hotel. When I used to work in the area and came to work
    8:30-9AM, I sometimes saw the door open, which looked like it led into
    a kitchen. There was also another entrance to something in the token
    booth area, opposite the opening to the passage. It is marked by a
    curved wall with slightly different tiling.
    I'm not sure if I saw the "knickerbocker" entrance. The shuttle
    station has a lot of interesting traces, including what looks like the
    ornamentation for a rather large entrance arch, completely plastered
    over. I have to look over that again!
    
    
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NEXT>7500
PREVIOUS>7480
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center
DATE>Jan 5 22:04:43 1998
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   In Reply to: [7]Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the
    World Trade Center today? posted by David Pirmann on December 26, 1997
    at 23:36:37:
    
    
    The Platform are now the a truck loading dock and the truck use a
    small part of the Old H&M tube as a drive thur from wtc5 and the way
    out. You can find your way down there via using the serice elv. or
    rent a yellow truck and go to the truck ramp.
    
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NEXT>7489
PREVIOUS>7466
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:04:47 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on December 27, 1997 at 09:23:11:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by
    Janet on December 26, 1997 at 16:04:27:
    
    After discussions with Dave (site Host) I'd like to change the number
    of stations to :there are 468 normal stations, plus one station,
    Aqueduct rackTrack that is only one paltform (to Manhattan) and only
    open from 11am-7Pm when the horses are running.
    
    So- take your pick 468 or 469- both are correct.
    
    
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NEXT>7515
PREVIOUS>7479
POSTER>Bill from S.I. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 18th Street Station
DATE>Jan 5 22:04:49 1998
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Posted by Bill from S.I. on December 27, 1997 at 09:40:22:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: 18th Street Station posted by Albert on December
    26, 1997 at 02:34:17:
    
    
    Know for a fact one is there, so look hard.
    
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NEXT>7491
PREVIOUS>7487
POSTER>GarfieldA 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:04:53 1998
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Posted by GarfieldA on December 27, 1997 at 10:33:36:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by
    subway-buff on December 27, 1997 at 09:23:11:
    
    What about the old and now CLOSED Dean Street station on the Franklin
    Ave. Shuttle. So that makes it 468 0r 7
    
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NEXT>7497
PREVIOUS>7482
POSTER>Mike B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
DATE>Jan 5 22:04:58 1998
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Posted by Mike B on December 27, 1997 at 12:06:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Peter Rosa
    on December 26, 1997 at 22:44:08:
    
    The L is my favorite between Rockaway Parkway and Broadway Junction
    because of its uniqueness. Between Rockaway Parkway and midway between
    East 105th Street and New Lots, it runs on its own surface
    Right-of-Way. Between New Lots and Sutter Avenue it runs on an
    elevated structure alongside the LIRR freight tracks. From Sutter
    Avenue to Broadway Junction, the Atlantic Avenue complex is amazing to
    look at especially when looking out the front window. The only other
    unique section of this line is at Wilson Avenue. The Wilson Avenue
    station for Manhattan bound trains is in a tunnel. The station for
    Canarsie bound trains is above ground.
    When I was growing up, there used to be a grade crossing at East 105th
    Street. I believe it was removed in the early 70's. When that existed,
    it made the L (or Canarsie Line back then) a lot of fun.
    Also, at Livonia Avenue the #3 train passes over the elevated L train
    on a higher elevated structure.
    
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NEXT>7495
PREVIOUS>7489
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:02 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on December 27, 1997 at 13:15:29:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by
    GarfieldA on December 27, 1997 at 10:33:36:
    
    The number did not include Dean Street so the number stands! :-(
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7426
POSTER>Fitz 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Max. train speed/ H&M
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:04 1998
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Posted by Fitz on December 27, 1997 at 15:31:51:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Max. train speed/ H&M posted by Serafin Jr on
    December 24, 1997 at 18:23:44:
    
    I've operated both types and have never gotten more than 50 MPH out of
    them
    on level ground.Fastest that I know of was 61 MPH.That was downhill
    with
    a tail wind and recorded by a supervisor with a radar gun.
    The highest speed limit between Exchange Pl. and WTC is 40 MPH. In
    practice,speed maxes out in the 37-39 MPH range before having to slow
    for
    the curves at WTC.The highest speed limit outdoors is 55 MPH,but this
    is only reached in rare instances.
    As built,PA cars WERE capable of 70 MPH.After speed tests were run on
    the LIRR, they were modified and limited to the 50-55 MPH range,as 70
    is
    neither safe nor practical given the system's configuration.The higher
    speed was planned for extensions that never came to be.
    
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NEXT>7494
PREVIOUS>7421
POSTER>Shunya Togashi 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: F Train Blues
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:06 1998
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Posted by Shunya Togashi on December 27, 1997 at 17:23:14:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: F Train Blues posted by Charles Fiori on December
    24, 1997 at 11:46:57:
    
    
    "There's another train directly behind this one"(about 500 miles
    away)*
    * applies to all rush hour trains
    I like the F train in Brooklyn for simple reasons.
    1. I think it has great scenery from Caroll st. to 4th ave. and again
    from kings hwy to coney Island
    2. From where I used to live, I think the F was Faster to get to Coney
    Island than the B , D and the N.
    But I hate this line for several reasons.
    1. Manhattan- too slow
    2. Alot of junk in the cars
    3, the R46? i say are horrible
    
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NEXT>7502
PREVIOUS>7493
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: F Train Blues
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:10 1998
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 27, 1997 at 17:49:00:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: F Train Blues posted by Bootsy on December 24,
    1997 at 11:47:21:
    
    F--K the passengers?
    
    
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NEXT>7503
PREVIOUS>7491
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:13 1998
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Posted by Nick on December 27, 1997 at 18:02:55:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by
    subway-buff on December 27, 1997 at 13:15:29:
    
    If the station isn't open anymore, certainly it doesn't count. There
    have been rumours that the Transit Museum is going to re-open the Old
    City Hall station (I think that's the one) in '98 0r '99...so maybe
    there will be 469 (or 470) stations soon.-Nick
    
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NEXT>7499
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Jeff M. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:16 1998
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Posted by Jeff M. on December 27, 1997 at 19:00:36:

   Does anyone know the timetable for the replacement of the token-only
    "Iron Maiden" turnstiles throughout the system with full-length
    turnstiles which can read metrocards? I use the 7th Avenue station in
    Brooklyn every morning, which has the full-length token-only
    turnstiles at both the 7th Avenue and 8th Avenue entrances to the
    station (the standard metrocard/token turnstiles are located in the
    middle of the station). I currently use both a metrocard (for my
    commute home from Manhattan) and tokens (for my morning commute), so a
    monthly pass is of no benefit to me without the new turnstiles.
    
    Thanks in advance for your responses.
    
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NEXT>7506
PREVIOUS>7490
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:19 1998
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Posted by Eric B on December 27, 1997 at 20:29:53:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Carl M.
    Rabbin on December 26, 1997 at 16:18:35:
    
    Because of the Crescent curve and others, the entire eastern div. (J,
    L, M) for 25 years has been restricted to older equipment, as
    everything made in the 70's and 80's was 75ft. Even the 110B test
    train, which was made 67 feet to address that problem is banned,
    because the geniuses placed the wheels differently. So now, they've
    given up on long cars, and with bucket and cross-seating designs also
    scrapped, the new cars that are finally to be assigned to the L and M
    will probably be almost identical to the R-40m/42's that provide
    almost all of the service.
    As radially close to Manhattan as it is, Ridgewood is the most
    disconnected neighborhood around. To get to lower Manhattan on
    weekdays, is on of the finest services, except for having to wait for
    the M to come from the southern div, where it suffers delays the J and
    Z from Broad St do not, and then to wait at Bway-Myrtle for express
    trains in both directions to cross over on the grade crossing. But to
    get anywhere else at any other time is horrible. The M is just a
    shuttle. They J and L only go to lower Manhattan, and to get to
    midtown, uptown, or the other side of Brooklyn can take up to three
    transfers, and worse, when there are service diversions, which on the
    L have been many.
    The buses to dwntown Brooklyn are incredibly slow rides. The fact that
    they took down the Myrtle el for a Metrotech project that wouldn't
    even begin for another two decades shows what they thought of this
    side of town. And even that line provided no direct service to midtown
    Manhattan.
    What they need to do is use the outer Chrystie connection to run
    trains from 6th or 8th Av's out here. Even if that didn't work for
    rush hours 25 years ago, it could still be used for evenings and
    weekends now. There should also be limited stop service on the B-54
    (to replace Myrtle el.), and the B-38.
    
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NEXT>7511
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>John 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>LIRR and Woodhaven station
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:21 1998
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Posted by John on December 27, 1997 at 20:39:10:

   I know that the Woodhaven Station is on the Flatbush line on the LIRR,
    but does anyone know when it is located? Is it underground or
    elevated?
    Where can I see the entrance to the station?
    
    What are other sights on long the line? I notice a large portal on the
    right wall of the Jamaica side of the tunnel. What is it for? Also,
    can anyone confirm the connection to the Rockaway line from there? Is
    there a connection?
    
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NEXT>7516
PREVIOUS>7496
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:23 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on December 27, 1997 at 21:05:39:

   In Reply to: [7]Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles posted by Jeff
    M. on December 27, 1997 at 19:00:36:
    
    I was under the impression that they have all been replaced by now.
    The last ones I remember seeing were at the Coney Island station and a
    few stations along the West End Line (I'm sure there were many others
    at other stations that were replaced within the past year).
    
    
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NEXT>7510
PREVIOUS>7486
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:24 1998
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   In Reply to: [7]Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the
    World Trade Center today? posted by David Pirmann on December 26, 1997
    at 23:36:37:
    
    I don't really know where the old Hudson Terminal IND station is, but
    I am VERY curious to find out it's current condition, location,
    status, etc . . . .
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Jack 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>#7 IRT(69st station)
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:26 1998
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Posted by Jack on December 27, 1997 at 21:12:57:

   At the 69st station heading Flushing bound, at the begining of the
    station, there is a set of, what look like crew stairs, leading to a
    lower level.
    Does anyone still use these stairs?
    
    What is the abandoned docks near the descend to Main St. station?
    Was it ever used?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7494
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: F Train Blues
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:28 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on December 27, 1997 at 21:19:10:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: F Train Blues posted by Hank Eisenstein on
    December 27, 1997 at 17:49:00:
    
    Yeah, something along those lines . . .
    
    
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NEXT>7504
PREVIOUS>7495
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:31 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 27, 1997 at 21:32:09:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by
    Nick on December 27, 1997 at 18:02:55:
    
    468 is the official number of stations in the NYC subway, counting
    Aqueduct and discounting one for the RIP Dean St station on the
    Franklin Shuttle. The Transit Museum did plan on reopening City Hall,
    but it would be a museum annex, not a station in passenger service.
    Also, that whole project is now up in the air with the recent (this
    past summer) reorganization of much of the Transit Museum's staff, so
    I wouldn't hold my breath on this opening.
    
    Anyone know when the Museum's Spring Calendar goes out?
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7513
PREVIOUS>7503
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:35 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 27, 1997 at 21:33:42:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by
    Janet on December 26, 1997 at 16:04:27:
    
    Well, this begs the question, how many cars in the NYC Subway fleet?
    
    Answer (as of a Daily News article about 2 weeks ago) is 5,917.
    
    2 down, 51 to go ... :)
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7514
PREVIOUS>7463
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Change at Ozone Park
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:37 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 27, 1997 at 21:37:42:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Change at Ozone Park posted by George on December
    26, 1997 at 09:52:56:
    
    Another two suggestions:
    - Ron's Books, a mail order outfit, usually caries it, and he usually
    advertises in Trains, Model Railroader & Railroad Model Craftsman.
    I've dealt with him before and have always been happy with him.
    - Pick up a copy of Model Railroader and check the list of train shows
    coming up in your area. SOMEONE at these shows usually specializes in
    railroad books.
    
    A big show I know of is coming up in February in Springfield, Mass.
    usually the first week in February. (Sorry - I don't have any details
    on it).
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7530
PREVIOUS>7497
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:39 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 27, 1997 at 21:55:34:

   In Reply to: [8]The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Steve on
    December 25, 1997 at 01:51:45:
    
    The best line?
    
    If I were a commuter (I used to be but I'm not anymore) I'd have to
    say the 4/5 lines. Fast, frequent service. Always seemed to be there
    when I needed one.
    
    As a railfan, the J line. Lots of history and a long meandering
    elevated through Brooklyn and Queens.
    
    As a tourist, the N or R lines. Goes everywhere I need to. Proved that
    to myself when I took the wife and kids into Manhattan last week.
    
    The worst line?
    
    As a commuter, I'd have to say the N & R. They haven't been called
    Never and Rarely for nothing. The N's a long ride in Brooklyn. I can't
    speak for the G although it rates up there as among the worst as well,
    simply because I have seldomly ridden it.
    
    As a railfan, not counting shuttles, I'd have to say the G on this
    one. There's just nothing to look at, save for Smith/9th Sts.
    
    As a tourist, I'd say the D line. I've been on many a time where I
    have not been comfortable with some of the rowdy youth who I've seen
    on this line.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7557
PREVIOUS>7483
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:41 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 27, 1997 at 22:00:58:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe posted by
    Larry Littlefield on December 26, 1997 at 20:15:12:
    
    Very interesting perspective.
    
    Remember how people reacted to the Williamsburgh Bridge being closed
    for a few weeks because of structural defects?
    
    I'm afraid it is going to take a similar incident on the Manhattan
    Bridge before people wake up and realize how important the subway
    service is that crosses it.
    
    The Rutgers St tunnel is a "cheap" way out.
    
    Too bad most people don't consider this when re-electing their
    politicians.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7379
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway?
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:43 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 27, 1997 at 22:19:03:

   In Reply to: [8]Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway?
    posted by Timothy on December 22, 1997 at 23:20:09:
    
    The 85' long commuter trains would not make the curves that even some
    75' R-44s, R-46s and R-68(A)s cam barely make in the NY system.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7417
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Aqeduct Race Track City Hall Loop and Bowling Green
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:45 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 27, 1997 at 22:34:13:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Aqeduct Race Track City Hall Loop and Bowling
    Green posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 24, 1997 at 10:21:22:
    
    The outer loop at South Ferry is covered by the #1 line and is in
    revenue service.
    
    The inner loop at South ferry is used to turn around midday #5 trains
    and is NOT in revenue service.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7512
PREVIOUS>7500
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:46 1998
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   In Reply to: [7]Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World
    Trade Center today? posted by Mike on December 26, 1997 at 12:10:14:
    
    
    I thought the Hudson Terminal station was renamed World Trade Center
    were the "E" train terminates. I have noticed on the wall tiles,
    blacked out squares, one tile was worn and the letters H-T was showing
    through.
    
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NEXT>7536
PREVIOUS>7498
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: LIRR and Woodhaven station
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:48 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 27, 1997 at 23:20:45:

   In Reply to: [8]LIRR and Woodhaven station posted by John on December
    27, 1997 at 20:39:10:
    
    The Woodhaven Station is east of East NY on the Flatbush Ave.Line.
    There is a large portal in the wall on the eastbound side of the
    tunnel which leads to the storage yard located just south of Atlantic
    Ave. (I think that's the one you are referring to. As for the
    connection to the Rockaway Branch, many years ago I saw the cut from
    the Rockaway branch into the tunnel where they crossed. At that time,
    the area was used to store junked cars and was behind a galvanized
    steel wall. I don't know the state of this area currently.
    
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NEXT>7527
PREVIOUS>7510
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:51 1998
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   In Reply to: [7]Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World
    Trade Center today? posted by Mike on December 26, 1997 at 12:10:14:
    
    A portion of the old H&M Hudson Terminal station, and the iron ringed
    tunnel that made up the loop are still there. They are accessible from
    the B1 level of the WTC basement. If you come down the truck dock,
    underneath #5 WTC and make a left, you will see the iron ringed
    tunnel. A portion of the old Hudson Terminal platform is now a truck
    loading dock. The trucks back up to the old platform. The old vaulted
    ceiling is still there over a portion of the truck dock. Trust me,
    it's not as impressive looking as it sounds.
    
    As for the IND, they just renamed it World Trade Center. Besides the
    name change, the portion that connects with the WTC concourse (the
    area with the glass doors) was the only portion that was changed when
    they built the WTC.
    
    How do I know these things? Simple I work for the PA at the WTC. I
    have been to both areas many times.
    
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NEXT>7523
PREVIOUS>7504
POSTER>GarfieldA 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:53 1998
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Posted by GarfieldA on December 27, 1997 at 23:53:07:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by
    subway-buff on December 27, 1997 at 13:15:29:
    
    The station is not in existance anymore!!!
    So that's one less station from the total amount
    
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NEXT>7526
PREVIOUS>7505
POSTER>J Gordon 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Change at Ozone Park
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:54 1998
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Posted by J Gordon on December 28, 1997 at 00:18:19:

   In Reply to: [8]Change at Ozone Park posted by aaron on December 26,
    1997 at 08:40:38:
    
    Penn Books has it (NY Penn Sta LIRR concourse near K Mart)
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7488
POSTER>Albert 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 18th Street Station
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:56 1998
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Posted by Albert on December 28, 1997 at 05:04:21:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: 18th Street Station posted by Peter Rosa on
    December 26, 1997 at 22:52:10:
    
    I will do so, but it won't be until February for that's when I return
    to school.
    
    
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NEXT>7519
PREVIOUS>7499
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles
DATE>Jan 5 22:05:58 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on December 28, 1997 at 05:34:51:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles posted by
    Bootsy on December 27, 1997 at 21:05:39:
    
    There's at least one left. The other day I was at 81 and Central park
    West and the old style Token iron Maiden was still there.
    
    
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NEXT>7524
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>George 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Train Separates
DATE>Jan 5 22:06:03 1998
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Posted by George on December 28, 1997 at 11:03:21:

   At approx. 8:00pm on Sat. Dec.27/97 a 6 car train, consist of H-6
    units had the auto coupler between an air car and electric car break
    apart and pull out of both units as the train was crossing the
    cross-over into Kennedy Terminal at the east end terminus of the
    Bloor-Danforth line in Toronto. Power was pulled and all 200 persons
    on board were safely evacuated to the platform. Mecanhics managed to
    pick up the torn out coupler unit and isolate both havles of the train
    and operate them into the Kennedy tail tracks. At this time this
    incident is under investigation.
    Has there been any type of incident like this in NY or other American
    trainsit system recently. This is our second in one year.
    
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NEXT>7528
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart
DATE>Jan 5 22:06:06 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 28, 1997 at 11:33:50:

   In Reply to: [8]Train Separates posted by George on December 28, 1997
    at 11:03:21:
    
    What you experienced, could be one of two types of incidents. The more
    common is referred to as an "Undesired Uncoupling". In this case, the
    train uncouples and both segments 'should' go into emergency. This is
    due to either a failure of the coupler head, human error or a
    transient uncoupling signal. In this case, the train can usually be
    re-added and moved off of the main line for examination.
    
    In a pull-apart, the train will seperate between linked units (which
    is what it sounds like you had). This is always due to mechanical
    failure of either the link or the trunion bolts which support it. In
    this case, air and electrical lines are extensively damaged and the
    train would usually need to be moved in 2 pieces, off the main line.
    
    Undesired uncouplings and pull-aparts are rare occurrences on the NYCT
    system. Undesired uncouplings are always investigated by 'System
    Safety' to determine a cause. All NYCT equipment is designed &
    engineered to prevent a 'single-point failure' from causing an
    Undesired Uncoupling. As for Pull-Aparts, I've seen only one in the
    last 2 decades. A pair of
    R-38s seperated, in service, about 15 years ago due to a failure of a
    trunion bolt.
    
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NEXT>7532
PREVIOUS>7516
POSTER>David L. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles
DATE>Jan 5 22:06:12 1998
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Posted by David L. on December 28, 1997 at 12:41:48:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles posted by
    subway-buff on December 28, 1997 at 05:34:51:
    
    At the 46 Street and Northern Blvd stations. New full-length
    turnstiles which can read metrocards were placed right next to the
    Iron Maiden turnstiles. I'm not sure if the iron maiden turnstile
    still works, but they both are next to each other. The Grand Ave
    station still has the Iron Maiden Turnstile.
    
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NEXT>7521
PREVIOUS>7477
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses)
DATE>Jan 5 22:06:17 1998
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Posted by Joe M on December 28, 1997 at 13:47:26:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses) posted
    by Bobw on December 26, 1997 at 21:42:39:
    
    The older RTS buses have independnt front suspension that needs to be
    rebushed on a regualar basis making them unpopular with some rapair
    departments.
    
    With good maintenance they are good buses. NYC transit does a good job
    with theirs and the newer RTS's (since 1986) have solid front axels
    and are much easier to keep in good condition.
    
    The wheel base is long and the power steering is quick, It's easy to
    clip a curb if you are not careful with them, especially a 102" 40
    footer
    
    
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PREVIOUS>7520
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses)
DATE>Jan 5 22:06:23 1998
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Posted by Joe M on December 28, 1997 at 13:48:51:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA's "Green Hornets" (GM Old-Look Buses) posted
    by Bobw on December 26, 1997 at 21:42:39:
    
    The older RTS buses have independnt front suspension that needs to be
    rebushed on a regualar basis making them unpopular with some rapair
    departments.
    
    With good maintenance they are good buses. NYC transit does a good job
    with theirs and the newer RTS's (since 1986) have solid front axels
    and are much easier to keep in good condition.
    
    The wheel base is long and the power steering is quick, It's easy to
    clip a curb if you are not careful with them, especially a 102" 40
    footer
    
    
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POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Compatible - I think not?
DATE>Jan 5 22:06:29 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 28, 1997 at 14:00:45:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Could commuter trains fit and/or run in a subway?
    posted by Adam on December 22, 1997 at 23:41:56:
    
    What is your definition of compatibility? Track gauge and 600 volt 3rd
    rail not withstanding, there is no compatibility. The car envelope is
    not compatible with the NYCT tunnels. The cars can not operate on the
    NYCT signal system, The couplers are not compatible (mechanical or
    electrical). About the only NE reigonal system which would be
    compatible with NYCT is PATH.
    
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NEXT>7576
PREVIOUS>7513
POSTER>Mike B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:06:33 1998
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Posted by Mike B on December 28, 1997 at 16:04:20:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by
    Mark S Feinman on December 27, 1997 at 21:32:09:
    
    How many of the 468 stations are below ground vs above ground
    (open-cut being considered above ground)
    
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NEXT>7551
PREVIOUS>7517
POSTER>Fernando Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Train Separates
DATE>Jan 5 22:06:34 1998
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Posted by Fernando Perez on December 28, 1997 at 16:42:40:

   In Reply to: [8]Train Separates posted by George on December 28, 1997
    at 11:03:21:
    
    I remember about five or more years ago, the laast two cars of a r44
    or r40 train broke apart and the rest of the train kept going leaving
    the two cars alone in the tunnel in Brooklyn. I dont know if it was
    ever determined what went wrong.
    
    
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NEXT>7559
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Larry Reuter Interview on WNBC-TV Today
DATE>Jan 5 22:06:36 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on December 28, 1997 at 16:43:13:

   This is a brief summary of today's interview with Larry Reuter(NYCT
    president) by WNBC-TV4.
    When asked about 11 for 10 he said that transit would lose money and
    he hoped the increased riders will lead to a break even. He also said
    no family fares or deeper discounts until they see how the revenue
    comes in. he also said they are adding service on the 6,7 and "some
    other lines." The Q was mentioned by the host and he said not yet.
    Second Ave: Right now a study/ Next project is 63 st to Grand Central
    then second Ave. "There is light at the end of the tunnel but it is
    far away (after 2005) but there is light"
    Translation: Dont wait for second ave trains- yet
    
    
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NEXT>7544
PREVIOUS>7514
POSTER>Fernando Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Change at Ozone Park
DATE>Jan 5 22:06:38 1998
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Posted by Fernando Perez on December 28, 1997 at 16:52:32:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Change at Ozone Park posted by Mark S Feinman on
    December 27, 1997 at 21:37:42:
    
    I bought mine at the Branford Trolley museum at West Haven, Conn.
    
    
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NEXT>7539
PREVIOUS>7512
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center
DATE>Jan 5 22:06:41 1998
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    In Reply to: [7]Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the
    World Trade Center today? posted by Someone Who's Been There on
    December 27, 1997 at 23:49:12:
    
    I would like to know if the PA plans to offer tours one day for anyone
    like railbuffs to see the old Hudson Terminal & what it looks like
    today. Please post it.
    
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NEXT>7553
PREVIOUS>7518
POSTER>George 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart
DATE>Jan 5 22:06:43 1998
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Posted by George on December 28, 1997 at 20:46:37:

   In Reply to: [8]Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart posted by Steve on
    December 28, 1997 at 11:33:50:
    
    The unoffical word is that the unit in question, had work done on it
    Dec.01/97 and the attachment bolts may have been over torqued. That is
    at this time unofficial and speculation. The coupler unit was ripped
    out of one car and remained coupled to the other. Keep you posted.
    
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NEXT>7535
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Theft of Services
DATE>Jan 5 22:06:45 1998
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Posted by Adam on December 28, 1997 at 21:35:42:

   The other day, I saw some kids get caught for jumping the turnstiles.
    I know that you can get charged with Theft of Services for
    farebeating, but I'm wondering what is the penalty for this? Do you
    get arrested or do you just get a ticket? Is there a fine and/or jail
    time involved?
    
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NEXT>7556
PREVIOUS>7506
POSTER>Sammy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
DATE>Jan 5 22:06:47 1998
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Posted by Sammy on December 28, 1997 at 22:32:03:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by a.pardi on
    December 26, 1997 at 19:17:51:
    
    I understand that too. But they had better not, because we (and I do
    mean the residents of Greenpoint/Williamsburgh) will sue the pants off
    the MTA if they deny us service. Let this be a warning to the
    MTA!!!!!!
    
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NEXT>7533
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Sammy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Best/Worst Subways (Redux)
DATE>Jan 5 22:06:48 1998
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Posted by Sammy on December 28, 1997 at 22:35:00:

   If as they say the G will terminate permanently at Court Square
    following the opening of the 63rd street line, then the MTA should be
    aware of one thing.
    
    We, the residents of Greenpoint, will fight this to the end. The MTA
    has no right whatsoever to deny economic growth to any
    neighborhood/community. If it takes a class action suit, so be it.
    
    It just won't happen. MYA - you've been warned.
    
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NEXT>7541
PREVIOUS>7519
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles
DATE>Jan 5 22:06:50 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on December 28, 1997 at 23:41:00:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles posted by
    subway-buff on December 28, 1997 at 05:34:51:
    
    Yea, stations on Central Park West tends to get new turnstiles rather
    slowly. Just 3-4 years ago they were still using the old clunky
    turnstiles which probably dated back to the opening of the station.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7531
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Best/Worst Subways (Redux)
DATE>Jan 5 22:06:51 1998
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Posted by Nick on December 29, 1997 at 00:02:27:

   In Reply to: [8]Best/Worst Subways (Redux) posted by Sammy on December
    28, 1997 at 22:35:00:
    
    It's bad enough that the G doesn't go to Forest Hills on
    weekends...don't make this service even worse then it already
    is....add some trains and make it better!!!!-NICK
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>1886
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>G Line
DATE>Jan 5 22:06:53 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 29, 1997 at 00:12:46:

   In Reply to: [8]Best/Worst Subways (Redux) posted by Sammy on December
    28, 1997 at 22:35:00:
    
    Clair Schulman, Queens Boro-president would be the first person I'd
    speak to. She's very concerned where transit matters are concenred.
    
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NEXT>7538
PREVIOUS>7529
POSTER>Steve 
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SUBJECT>Re: Theft of Services
DATE>Jan 5 22:06:55 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 29, 1997 at 00:17:39:

   In Reply to: [8]Theft of Services posted by Adam on December 28, 1997
    at 21:35:42:
    
    First of all, a large percentage of the people arrested for turnstile
    jumping are either found to be in possessionof a weapon or drugs. many
    more are found to have outstanding warrants. Hence, turnstile jumping
    is the least of their problems. For those whom turnstile jumping is
    the only CRIME, they are sometimes offered a Work Alternative
    Restatution Program where they are permitted to work off their
    punishment cleaning in and around TA facilities.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7511
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: LIRR and Woodhaven station
DATE>Jan 5 22:06:57 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on December 29, 1997 at 01:15:23:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: LIRR and Woodhaven station posted by Steve on
    December 27, 1997 at 23:20:45:
    
    I think they use the area of the Woodhaven cut to store school buses.
    That's what I saw when I visited the area a few months ago, from
    street level.
    As for portals, I saw 4 on the Long Island-bound side (best seen from
    an LIRR train making a lot of connections at Jamaica, or a rush hour
    train): 2 led to the storage yard east of the Atlantic Ave. terminal
    (one had the tracks removed); 1 (sealed) just before the train exits
    the tunnel before Nostrand; and 1 (sealed) just before the the
    abandoned Woodhaven Blvd station (which led to the Rockaway line). The
    Woodhaven Blvd station was elevated (for the Rockaway line) and
    underground (for the Alantic Ave branch). To see the stairways and
    boarded over exits, take the J train to Woodhaven Blvd and walk south
    til you hit Atlantic Ave., then turn left til you reach the railroad
    bridge. Or, you could take the A to Rockaway Pky and follow the
    railroad bridge as best you can. The latter is probably not as safe,
    but you can see what's left of Ozone Park (not much), and also the old
    overhead railroad signals for the Rockaway line.
    I have a couple of questions though: are there any other portals on
    the New York-bound side of the Atlantic Ave branch? I never got a good
    chance to check it out. Also, what was the portal near Nostrand Avenue
    used for?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mike Rothenberg 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Manhattan Bridge Millenium Shutdown
DATE>Jan 5 22:06:58 1998
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Posted by Mike Rothenberg on December 29, 1997 at 01:57:23:

   Thanks to people like Larry L., Eric D., Mark Feinman and Subman 23,
    this topic won't (& shouldn't) go away. It is terribly important.
    More important that many other topics presented in this forum. IT
    IS UNACCEPTABLE THAT THIS SITUATION, AFFECTING SO MANY LINES AND
    PEOPLE, IS NOT ADDRESSED BY THE AUTHORITIES TO PROVIDE A SATISFACTORY
    AND PERMANENT RESOLUTION. Who wants to be one of the tens of thou-
    sands of people who have to deal with a horrible commute mess that is
    clearly coming, while authorities look the other way. There needs to
    be a way to get MTA authorities to put this AT OR NEAR THE TOP OF ITS
    AGENDA. Refusal to plan will guarantee transit disruption & anger.
    
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NEXT>7552
PREVIOUS>7535
POSTER>Fernando Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Theft of Services
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:00 1998
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Posted by Fernando Perez on December 29, 1997 at 03:24:48:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Theft of Services posted by Steve on December 29,
    1997 at 00:17:39:
    
    Many transit officers take their lunches at the depots, and I have
    asked them this question. Steve is correct. Also, sometimes they have
    sweeps where all they are looking for is farebeaters. They will have a
    command bus set up several blocks away where detainees are checked for
    warrants, etc. Most of the time they just receive a summons to pay a
    fine. Some officers even told me if they want some overtime they will
    arrest the person for it since MTA pays all their overtime. The
    summonses are aggresively pursued for payment by the MTA if the person
    just shrugs it off thinking they just wont pay it.
    
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NEXT>7540
PREVIOUS>7527
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:02 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the
    World Trade Center today? posted by David Pirmann on December 26, 1997
    at 23:36:37:
    
    There is NO old IND station at WTC called Hudson Terminal. The
    Chambers St and WTC stations of the IND are the original stations. The
    old tile walls had tiles for HTM. These have been painted black.
    -Hank
    
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NEXT>7560
PREVIOUS>7539
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:04 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the
    World Trade Center today? posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 29,
    1997 at 03:29:13:
    
    I thought the old Hudson Terminal station being discussed was the
    former PATH station.
    
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NEXT>7548
PREVIOUS>7532
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:05 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 29, 1997 at 08:38:59:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles posted by
    Andrew Huie on December 28, 1997 at 23:41:00:
    
    Hey -- I liked those old clunkers. Do you mean the ones with the
    wooden turnstile? I remember those fondly from the 2nd Ave. stop on
    the F.
    
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NEXT>7625
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Oops!
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:07 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 29, 1997 at 08:44:15:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles posted by
    Timothy Speer on December 29, 1997 at 08:38:59:
    
    Gee -- I should have read your post completely before I responded... I
    didn't realize we were still talking about Iron Maidens.
    
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NEXT>7610
PREVIOUS>7436
POSTER>Taxpayer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems - Need Ideas for MTA
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:10 1998
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Posted by Taxpayer on December 29, 1997 at 09:04:14:

   In Reply to: [7]Manhattan Bridge Problems - Need Ideas for MTA posted
    by Mike Rothenberg on December 25, 1997 at 00:40:03:
    
    Get ready for a 21st century without the Manhattan Bridge. The long
    series of temporary closures dating back to 1983 will be made
    permanent. Existing tunnels (with improved signals) can handle the
    additional subway traffic. Neither the city or state can afford to
    build a new structure or a replacement tunnel. Things will be more
    difficult for Brooklyn passengers, but not to the catastrophic level
    cried about on this site. As for the apparent high priority given to a
    GCT-LIRR connection, politically and economically Long Islanders have
    a lot of power. But that project will also be a waste of money,
    Everyone wants someone else to pay for their pet projects.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7526
POSTER>Lou from Middletown 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Change at Ozone Park
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:12 1998
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Posted by Lou from Middletown on December 29, 1997 at 09:11:55:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Change at Ozone Park posted by Mark S Feinman on
    December 27, 1997 at 21:37:42:
    
    I got mine through the RAILFAN/RAILROAD book shop.(get the feeling
    it's widely available?)
    
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NEXT>7546
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lou from Middletown 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:14 1998
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Posted by Lou from Middletown on December 29, 1997 at 09:21:29:

   When I was a kid, and we used to ride out to our aunt's in Jackson
    Hgts, the stations on the #7 line used to have names as well as
    numbers.It used to be (I believe) like 52nd St-Lincoln 36th
    st-Fisk,etc. Why did they have these names in the first place?? I
    don't see no streets on any map with these names, also why were
    dropped from the stations?? (A quick sidey: the conductors used to
    only say "Fisk","Lincoln",etc!!)Thanks for the help folks!
    
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NEXT>7547
PREVIOUS>7545
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:17 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 29, 1997 at 09:32:41:

   In Reply to: [7]Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names posted by Lou
    from Middletown on December 29, 1997 at 09:21:29:
    
    I don't know exactly when, but before 1900 the streets all had names
    in Queens County. As more streets were built and the land filled in
    with houses, most north-south streets were reassigned as numbered
    "Street"s and "Place"s; most east-west streets became "Avenue"s and
    "Drive"s. The names at the stations are the original names of the
    streets.
    
    An example (for those outside NYC) is "46th (Bliss)" where 46 St. used
    to be Bliss Street many many decades ago.
    
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NEXT>7549
PREVIOUS>7546
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:18 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 29, 1997 at 09:38:52:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names posted by
    Carl M. Rabbin on December 29, 1997 at 09:32:41:
    
    I recall reading that the major renaming of Queens Streets (names to
    numbers) occurred in the 1930s. That was after construction of the
    Flushing line and therefore helps account for the dual station names.
    Why these old street names are still retained for stations after ~60
    years is another matter. I'd say it's a way of making the station
    names easier to remember, but then again there are many stations on
    other lines designated by numbers only.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7541
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:20 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 29, 1997 at 09:44:19:

   In Reply to: [7]Replacement of "Iron Maiden" turnstiles posted by Jeff
    M. on December 27, 1997 at 19:00:36:
    
    This may seem funny to say, but the monthly Metrocards will not be "of
    no benefit" to you. You just may have to walk the extra 1/15th of a
    mile to the Metrocard turnstile in the middle of the station. If you
    use the subway or bus more than 21 round trips per month, you would
    save money, which might be worth the extra walking. Then when they do
    away with tokens, they will put new turnstiles everywhere.
    
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NEXT>7554
PREVIOUS>7547
POSTER>Lou from Middletown 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:22 1998
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Posted by Lou from Middletown on December 29, 1997 at 09:49:12:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names posted by
    Peter Rosa on December 29, 1997 at 09:38:52:
    
    Wow! Talk about fast-thanks for answering a puzzling question so
    quickly!! The answer as to why is probably the answer to a lot of
    subway/railroad questions-Tradition!! Or at the very least, they
    didn't want to spend the money to change the signs at the stations
    (another valued rail tradition!!)
    
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POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>What service changes are we expected to see after the 63rd St-Queens Blvd
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:24 1998
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   I would like to know what service changes are in store after the 63rd
    St-Queens Blvd Connection is completed. I have heard it might be the Q
    train or even a V train running through the connection. Please post
    it.
    
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NEXT>7569
PREVIOUS>7524
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Train Separates
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:26 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 29, 1997 at 11:22:29:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Train Separates posted by Fernando Perez on
    December 28, 1997 at 16:42:40:
    
    Happened out here in Chicago within the last couple of years, too. A
    midday work train was going up the incline, from the tunnel onto the
    'el' tracks, on the Red Line south of Fullerton. I believe it stopped
    on the grade and the last car, a flat car, separated and rolled back
    down the hill, impacting a stopped regular service train waiting at
    the bottom.
    
    
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NEXT>7643
PREVIOUS>7538
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Theft of Services
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:27 1998
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 29, 1997 at 11:52:37:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Theft of Services posted by Fernando Perez on
    December 29, 1997 at 03:24:48:
    
    What I have seen is farebeaters handcuffed, and summons written. The
    handcuffs alone would make me change my mind quick even if they let me
    go after writing the ticket!!
    
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NEXT>7558
PREVIOUS>7528
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:29 1998
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 29, 1997 at 11:58:13:

   In Reply to: [7]Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart posted by Steve on
    December 28, 1997 at 11:33:50:
    
    Wasn't there some type of breakaway when the first R44's came out with
    the unicontroller, half the train moved the other half the breaks
    never released??
    Could be total rumor that I seem to be misremembering though>...
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7549
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:31 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 29, 1997 at 17:03:55:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names posted by
    Peter Rosa on December 29, 1997 at 09:38:52:
    
    Why then would the use of line names on BMT Southern Division lines
    still be encouraged? If the West End is the remnant of some long ago
    railroad, why do we still need to make that reference? I like the old
    names myself.
    Anyone know, BTW, when 103rd St on the Flushing line was changed from
    104th (Alburtis)?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
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SUBJECT>Re: Hudson Terminal
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:32 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 29, 1997 at 17:06:35:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the
    World Trade Center today? posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 29,
    1997 at 03:29:13:
    
    I believe the designation on the tiles was H & M. Sorry to hear that
    the tiles were covered over. Might as well have covered over the
    beaver mosaics at Astor Place!!!
    
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NEXT>8070
PREVIOUS>7530
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:34 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 29, 1997 at 17:12:52:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: The Best & Worst Subway Lines posted by Gary
    Jacobi on December 26, 1997 at 18:07:17:
    
    For all you mapmeisters out there, check out an early edition of the
    post 1967 map, prob. the first one to include the 'KK'. It had the
    Alabama Av. station by itself on the lead up to the 'S' curve, and
    then all the other stations scrunched on the far side of the 'S'. That
    was a pretty bad map anyway.
    
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NEXT>7730
PREVIOUS>7507
POSTER>Subway95 Rivera 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:36 1998
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Posted by Subway95 Rivera on December 29, 1997 at 18:09:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe posted by
    Larry Littlefield on December 26, 1997 at 20:15:12:
    
    Come on you konw how many lines will have to be rerouted. One of the
    big lines in New York City is the D train how many people rid this
    train? If I was the T.A president I would reroute the D train after 34
    street on the F line and the N,R,Q line when they did it in 95 it did
    not go well. So they should reinforce the Bridge to make it sronger
    and then when it is strong to hold the train I would tke away piece by
    piece until it is fully rebuilt. What do you think
    
    
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NEXT>7568
PREVIOUS>7553
POSTER>Steve 
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SUBJECT>Re: Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:38 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 29, 1997 at 19:11:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart posted by Lou
    from Brooklyn on December 29, 1997 at 11:58:13:
    
    Sounds like one of those stories that have become part of transit
    lore. All things being equal, in the situation you cite, the train
    would simply not move. There would have to be a catastrophic failure
    of the draft gear for that to happen.
    
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NEXT>7561
PREVIOUS>7525
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Larry Reuter Interview on WNBC-TV Today
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:40 1998
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Posted by Adam on December 29, 1997 at 19:21:12:

   In Reply to: [8]Larry Reuter Interview on WNBC-TV Today posted by
    subway-buff on December 28, 1997 at 16:43:13:
    
    I have a good idea: Let's all send Larry Reuter e-mail (Does anybody
    know his e-mail address?) or letters by snail mail (His snail-mail
    address?) demanding the 2nd. Ave line be completed over such grossly
    expensive and trivial projects like the 63rd Street connection. Let's
    send him tons and tons of mail until he comes around on the 2nd Ave.
    Subway issue. Screw any more studies! We've done our own damn study
    and we've done it by riding the Lexington Ave. line. Tell Larry Reuter
    to get his ass into the subway for once. He probably rides limos and
    taxis around the city. And if you're reading this Mr. Reuter, I
    welcome you to respond publicly to all of us here at SubTalk as to why
    you keep pushing the 2nd Ave. Subway under the rug because soon we're
    going to have a riot right in front of your office and make you
    realize that we need that line. (Does anybody think the TA employees
    and managers read this board???)
    I know that I have been ranting and raving but when I hear that more
    "studies" are needed and that we have to wait until 2005 when NYCT may
    not have any more money and be cash-strapped again, I get very upset
    because this is the same bullshit we've been hearing for decades. Tell
    Larry Reuter to cut the crap and finally serve the straphangers of NYC
    in a just manner or get the hell out of office because we don't need
    him in there.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7540
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the World Trade Center
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:42 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: Is the old Hudson Terminal station still in the
    World Trade Center today? posted by Timothy Speer on December 29, 1997
    at 08:35:37:
    
    Yes and no. Before the WTC was built the H & M (the original provider
    of this service) had a terminal on Cortlandt street-*near* the current
    WTC.
    
    The question here is if the terminal, or any portion of the old(before
    WTC) PATH facillity still exists within the area covered by today's
    WTC>
    
    The IND Station- on the old maps in the phone book the dead
    end/terminal station was called "Hudson Terminal" and the through
    station (The A Platform) was Chambers Street. At some point after the
    WTC was built the name WTC was added to both platforms and the
    terminal station named Chambers Street.The current PATH is several
    levels under all subways. I think it may be3 floors under (long
    escalator, short escalator to fare zone. normal escalator to
    platform.See Joe Brennan's site(in this index) for more info.
    
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NEXT>7562
PREVIOUS>7559
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Larry Reuter Interview on WNBC-TV Today
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:44 1998
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Posted by Joe M on December 29, 1997 at 20:11:51:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Larry Reuter Interview on WNBC-TV Today posted by
    Adam on December 29, 1997 at 19:21:12:
    
    
    Studies usually involve public comment (letters public hearings,
    surveys etc.) Find the planners to get information about the palnning
    process. Attend the hearings and testify.
    
    A proactive attitude is good. Go for it and make the process work for
    you. State and Federal regulations require the planning process. The
    the process mandates plenty of public particiation (usually so the
    nimbys have an opportunity to kill the projects).
    
    
    
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NEXT>7563
PREVIOUS>7561
POSTER>Peter Gray 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Larry Reuter Interview on WNBC-TV Today
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:46 1998
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Posted by Peter Gray on December 29, 1997 at 22:36:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Larry Reuter Interview on WNBC-TV Today posted by
    Adam on December 29, 1997 at 19:21:12:
    
    You tell 'em, Adam!
    
    You're not ranting - everything you said makes perfect sense. NY has
    been suffering for most of a century with only one overtaxed East Side
    subway line. Since they took away the trolleys, the only alternative
    east of Lexington is a bus stalled in traffic. The result is piss-poor
    mobility.
    
    NYCT has made an art out of 'studies' as the consummate bureaucratic
    excuse to do absolutely nothing. That's part of the reason the whole
    town has gone to hell. We all know damn well that NY won't have a dime
    more in 2005 than it does today. Any idiot could tell you the 2nd
    Avenue line is needed. As you said, Reuter should get out of the damn
    limo, and down underground. Or better yet, just get the hell out so
    someone competent can do the job.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7562
POSTER>Peter Gray 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Larry Reuter Interview on WNBC-TV Today
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:49 1998
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Posted by Peter Gray on December 29, 1997 at 22:37:09:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Larry Reuter Interview on WNBC-TV Today posted by
    Adam on December 29, 1997 at 19:21:12:
    
    You tell 'em, Adam!
    
    You're not ranting - everything you said makes perfect sense. NY has
    been suffering for most of a century with only one overtaxed East Side
    subway line. Since they took away the trolleys, the only alternative
    east of Lexington is a bus stalled in traffic. The result is piss-poor
    mobility.
    
    NYCT has made an art out of 'studies' as the consummate bureaucratic
    excuse to do absolutely nothing. That's part of the reason the whole
    town has gone to hell. We all know damn well that NY won't have a dime
    more in 2005 than it does today. Any idiot could tell you the 2nd
    Avenue line is needed. As you said, Reuter should get out of the damn
    limo, and down underground. Or better yet, just get the hell out so
    someone competent can do the job.
    
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NEXT>7608
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mike K 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
DATE>Jan 5 22:07:54 1998
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Posted by Mike K on December 29, 1997 at 22:41:46:

   Folks
    If anyone did not see today's story in The Star-Ledger of Newark (NJ),
    there is a page one story about a study commission recommending
    construction of a second Hudson River rail crossing.
    
    The plan would involve having the tunnel cross the river just south of
    the current tunnel (which opened in 1910), lead to Penn Station, and
    branch off to Grand Central Station. The newspaper says part of the
    construction would involve using a tunnel that had been dug for a PATH
    expansion to the Grand Central area, which never materialized
    (question: is there such a tunnel?).
    
    Penn Station apparently has enough right of way to be able to get this
    tunnel started on its end. The tunnel would run along 31 Street, then
    turn to the north and into Grand Central.
    
    Apparently, this will also involve completing the LIRR 63rd Street
    connection into Grand Central.
    
    The study, conducted jointly by NJT, the Port Authority, and the MTA,
    would greatly expand the capacity of Penn Station, opening up platform
    space by allowing the LIRR and NJT to store trains at each other's
    yards during midday layovers. NJT would use Sunnyside, while the LIRR
    would use either the West Side yards or other yards in northern New
    Jersey.
    
    One other benefit would be an added link after the planned Secaucus
    Transfer station to many NJT lines that go to Hoboken. These tracks
    would curve off the main line to Hoboken, loop underneath (or above)
    the main line, then join the Northeast Corridor tracks. It would
    somewhat resemble the helix into the Lincoln Tunnel from New Jersey.
    
    This study is not yet complete. A formal presentation is expected
    early in the new year, but according to the Ledger, the committee has
    ruled out a vehicular tunnel or bridge.
    
    If this comes to fruition, what a great day for us transit advocates!
    But don't get too anxious: the thought is that this tunnel wouldn't be
    ready until at least 2010 (2015 is more likely). Plus, train
    modifications will be needed for NJT (maybe for the LIRR as well, but
    that I'm not sure of).
    
    The biggest losers herebesides those who insist on staying in their
    cars-would be PATH's uptown lines, especially the Hoboken-33rd Street
    line. The WTC lines should not be affected too much.
    
    Oh, almost forgot: the cost will be in the billions. I forget the
    exact number, but five billion seems to be a goofd starting point.
    
    Kind regards,
    Michael
    
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NEXT>7613
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Jason 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO
DATE>Jan 5 22:16:34 1998
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Posted by Jason on December 30, 1997 at 07:19:54:

   I am from Sydney, Australia and I hear that Toronto has the best, but
    by no means the most extensive subway in North America. If anyone
    knows anything at all about the Sheppard Street extension I would love
    to find out. (For example, number of stations, time for completion,
    internet links beside the TTC, and developments above stations)
    
    For those who are interested, light rail recently began operations and
    a $A 700 million underground link to Sydney Airport is scheduled to be
    completed by the 2000 Olympics. Also, the State Government has
    released a report on the internet detailing preferred new cross
    metropolitan light rail routes. It can be found at
    www.transport.nsw.gov.au/lightrail and the report includes case
    studies of lightrail in the U.S. The report makes much of the
    relationship between density and transport usage and therefore should
    be of special interest to those involved in transport planning.
    
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NEXT>7567
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>si2000 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)
DATE>Jan 5 22:16:38 1998
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Posted by si2000 on December 30, 1997 at 08:22:33:

   In Reply to: [8]Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names posted by Lou
    from Middletown on December 29, 1997 at 09:21:29:
    
    For the years the Bay Parkway station on the Culver 'F' line had signs
    that read - 'Bay Parkway - 22 Avenue'. Many, many years ago Bay
    Parkway was called 22nd Avenue. But, the Sea Beach and West End Bay
    Parkway stations never had dual names. The Neptune - Van Siclklen
    station was once only known as 'Van Sicklen' after the town that once
    existed there. (There is a Van Sicklen Street nearby, but not at or
    near the actual station). Any other dual names out there ??
    
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NEXT>7572
PREVIOUS>7566
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)
DATE>Jan 5 22:16:41 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 08:45:56:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual
    names) posted by si2000 on December 30, 1997 at 08:22:33:
    
    How about the Far Rockaway branch on the A?
    
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NEXT>7604
PREVIOUS>7558
POSTER>Bill from S.I. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart
DATE>Jan 5 22:16:42 1998
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Posted by Bill from S.I. on December 30, 1997 at 08:48:18:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart posted by Steve
    on December 29, 1997 at 19:11:22:
    
    
    Steve, do you remember (maybe you don't) a derailment in C.I. Yard in
    82 or 83 when a car on one of the yard tracks came apart and rolled
    into a train leaving the yard. After the car hit the train it rolled
    on to its side. I don't know details on why or how it happened, but I
    do remember it looked like a dead dinosaur laying there.
    
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NEXT>7570
PREVIOUS>7551
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Train Separates
DATE>Jan 5 22:16:44 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 09:07:35:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Train Separates posted by Charles Fiori on
    December 29, 1997 at 11:22:29:
    
    The followup I really posted got lost somehow in the bowels of
    Subtalk, so here it goes again:
    
    I thought I remembered someone telling me that if train cars
    separated, the brakes would apply as a result of lost air pressure,
    thus stopping the cars. Or am I thinking of trailers on
    tractor-trailer rigs?
    
    
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NEXT>7571
PREVIOUS>7569
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Train Separates
DATE>Jan 5 22:16:46 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on December 30, 1997 at 11:24:43:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Train Separates posted by Fernando Perez on
    December 28, 1997 at 16:42:40:
    
    I think that's the case where a Manhattan-bound A train with R-44 cars
    were operating along Fulton Street when the first two cars separated
    from the last six. If I rememeber correctly the motorman continued on
    to the next stop, looked out his/her window when the dorrs failed to
    open and discovered that his train was minus six cars. The remaining
    cars were back in the tunnel, I'm guessing they went BIE to stop them.
    
    
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NEXT>7574
PREVIOUS>7570
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
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SUBJECT>Re: Train Separates
DATE>Jan 5 22:16:48 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 11:58:08:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Train Separates posted by Wayne Johnson on
    December 30, 1997 at 11:24:43:
    
    Help me out here -- what does BIE mean?
    
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NEXT>7573
PREVIOUS>7567
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)
DATE>Jan 5 22:16:50 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 30, 1997 at 12:00:00:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual
    names) posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 08:45:56:
    
    Officially Queens County has 3 postal names: LIC, Flushing, and
    Jamaica. All the little town names like Bellerose, Forest Hills,
    Elmhurst, etc. are names given to areas before the County changed from
    being like Nassau County to being a part of NYC. They are all informal
    village and post office substation names.
    
    The names on all the Rockaway line stations are these informal village
    names, like Arverne, Edgemere, Rockaway Park, etc. They are all part
    of Jamaica postal district, but retain their pre-1898 "town/village"
    names as a custom.
    
    Queens is the only borough where you don't have to write the address
    as "Queens, NY", but can write the town name. The Bronx goes the other
    way: Some in the Bronx write "New York, NY" as part of their address.
    
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NEXT>7575
PREVIOUS>7572
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
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SUBJECT>Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)
DATE>Jan 5 22:16:52 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 30, 1997 at 12:04:26:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual
    names) posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 30, 1997 at 12:00:00:
    
    Interesting to read in yesterday's NY Newsday that three towns in what
    is now Nassau County opted not to join the "rest of Queens" in
    aligning with the newly consolidated City of New York in 1897. Can you
    imagine if Queens had gone all the way out to Hempstead???
    
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NEXT>7602
PREVIOUS>7571
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
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SUBJECT>Re: Train Separates
DATE>Jan 5 22:16:55 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 30, 1997 at 12:05:30:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Train Separates posted by Timothy Speer on
    December 30, 1997 at 11:58:08:
    
    BIE---Brakes in Emergency
    
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NEXT>7580
PREVIOUS>7573
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
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DATE>Jan 5 22:16:58 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 12:21:34:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual
    names) posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 30, 1997 at 12:00:00:
    
    Okay, then -- that makes me wonder about that little bit of The Bronx
    on the North side of the Broadway Bridge. I seem to rememeber that it
    is technically part of Manhattan and/or New York County. Anyone know
    what I'm talking about?
    
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NEXT>7577
PREVIOUS>7523
POSTER>ALEX 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:16:59 1998
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Posted by ALEX on December 30, 1997 at 12:29:28:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by
    Mark S Feinman on December 27, 1997 at 21:33:42:
    
    THE NUMBER IS 468, DEARIE. EVEN THOUGH INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, NEW YORK,
    AS FAR AS TRACK MILAGE, IS NOT THE LARGEST SUBWAY SYSTEM IN THE WORLD.
    BELIEVE IT OR NOT THAT TITLE GOES TO........READY?......WASHINGTON
    D.C. THEY DID SOME SERIOUS EXTENSIONS ON THIER SUBWAYS IN 1990 AND
    EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE BETWEEN 70 AND 110 STATIONS THEY HAVE ABOUT 270
    MILES OF TRACK AS COMPARED TO 252 IN LONDON AND 231 IN GOOD OL' NYC.
    IT EVEN BEATS OUT MOSCOW, PARIS AND TOKYO!
    
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NEXT>7582
PREVIOUS>7576
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:03 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 12:37:54:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by
    ALEX on December 30, 1997 at 12:29:28:
    
    You don't need to yell!
    
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NEXT>7612
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
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SUBJECT>Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:05 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on December 30, 1997 at 12:40:16:

   I just came back from a quick visit to San Francisco (BART, MUNI
    subway and streetcars, Market/Surface PCCs, cable cars, trackless
    trolleys!).
    
    MUNI has just announced the following:
    
    Effective in January, the "E Embarcadero" line will open. Initially it
    will operate with a shuttle between Embarcadero (the current terminal
    of the J,K,L,M,N streetcar lines) and the Caltrain Station, with
    intermediate stops at Folsom, Branna, and 2nd/King. The interesting
    thing here is that this shuttle will operate on a Proof of Payment
    (POP) system, whereby you have to buy a ticket and retain it while on
    the car; operators will no longer accept cash. In addition, when two
    or three car trains are used, the operator in the front car will
    control the doors in all cars, and there will be no personnel in the
    trailer cars. MUNI's brochure says that POP will be phased in on other
    lines in the future.
    
    In addition, on 10 January, the MUNI Metro Subway will resume service
    from after 10 p.m. until close of service. For the past few years, the
    subway service has had shuttle bus substitution for these hours to
    pemrit installation of a new signal system which is designed to
    improve the operation by allowing shorter headways. I believe it is a
    moving block system similar to that which is proposed for testing on
    our L/Canarsie line.
    
    By the way, the new Breda streecars are being well received; the
    Boeing LRVs which are now 20+ years old still run as they do here in
    Boston. But the crowning jewel is the F/Market surface line with its
    overhauled ex-Septa PCC cars. If only other cities could follow this
    lead!
    
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NEXT>7586
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>SPENCER 
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SUBJECT>WHO'S GOT THE BEST?
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:08 1998
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Posted by SPENCER on December 30, 1997 at 12:40:40:

   AFTER BRIEFLY BROWSING THROUGH SOME OF THESE MESSAGES AN IDEA CAME TO
    ME. I HAVE BEEN INTO SUBWAYS AND THE LIKE SINCE 1993. IF YOU'VE GOT A
    SUBWAY QUESTION, CHANCES ARE PRETTY GOOD I CAN ANSWER IT. BUT TO ALL
    YOU FANATICS (AND I MEAN THAT IN A GOOD WAY) WHICH WORLD CITY DO YOU
    THINK HAS THE BEST SUBWAY? I'M NOT TALKIN' MILAGE. I'M NOT TALKLIN'
    NUMBER OF STATIONS. I'M TALKIN' WHICH IS THE BEST. AND LET'S SEE IF
    YOU CAN ANSWER THIS. HOW MANY CITIES HAVE SUBWAYS? NOW BEFORE YOU GO
    TO YOUR REFERENCE BOOKS OR YOUR BRAIN REMEMBER...A SUBWAY IS
    DEFINED(BY ME) AS ANY METROPOLITAN UNDERGROUND TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM.
    SO AMTRAK DOESN'T COUNT. THE UNDERGROUND LENGTH MUST MAKE UP AT LEAST
    HALF OF THE TOTAL SYSTEM LENGTH(SORRY, SHYTOWN. THAT MEANS YOU'RE NOT
    IN THIS.) AND GET BACK TO ME BEFORE JANUARY 20. LET'S SEE HOW SMART
    YOU "TUNNEL-DWELLERS" REALLY ARE.
    
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NEXT>7587
PREVIOUS>7575
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
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SUBJECT>Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:11 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on December 30, 1997 at 12:44:34:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual
    names) posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 12:21:34:
    
    Correct, part of it is Marble Hill. I went to nursery school there :-)
    
    
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NEXT>7583
PREVIOUS>7446
POSTER>GERALD 
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SUBJECT>Re: NY Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:13 1998
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Posted by GERALD on December 30, 1997 at 12:47:39:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: NY Subway posted by Bootsy on December 25, 1997 at
    21:53:19:
    
    IS IT ANY THING LIKE THE UNDERGROUND? I'LL SAY THIS. RIDE ALL 25 NYC
    SUBWAY LINES END TO END. IF YOU COME UP ALIVE NEITHER HELL NOR HIGH
    WATER CAN STOP YOU FROM ANYTHING. YOU'D BE READY TO TAKE ON JANET
    RENO.
    
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NEXT>7618
PREVIOUS>7577
POSTER>Bootsy 
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SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:15 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on December 30, 1997 at 13:00:36:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by
    Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 12:37:54:
    
    I beleive the mileage for New York is 700-some odd miles of track.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7581
POSTER>Bootsy 
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DATE>Jan 5 22:17:17 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on December 30, 1997 at 13:02:46:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: NY Subway posted by GERALD on December 30, 1997 at
    12:47:39:
    
    Well, I don't know about Janet Reno -- that's kind of pushing it. :-)
    
    
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POSTER>Peter Rosa 
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SUBJECT>Re: Marble Hill (was Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names))
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:19 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 30, 1997 at 13:35:13:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual
    names) posted by Todd Glickman on December 30, 1997 at 12:44:34:
    
    Marble Hill is politically part of Manhattan because it once was
    physically attached to Manhattan Island. It became attached to the
    mainland (the Bronx) when the Harlem River was deepened and re-routed
    somtime in the late 1800s/early 1900s.
    As small as Marble Hill may be, it has a Metro-North stop and a subway
    station.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7485
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Private entrances (was Re: About the Hoyt Street entrance to Macy's...)
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:20 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 30, 1997 at 13:47:27:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Private entrances (was Re: About the Hoyt Street
    entrance to Macy's...) posted by Andrew Huie on December 27, 1997 at
    04:52:26:
    
    The "Knickerbocker" entrance at the Times Square shuttle station is
    easy to spot. It's on the eastern (toward Grand Central) end of the
    station, right next to the southernmost track, which I believe is
    Track One. It's a normal-sized wooden door with the word
    "KNICKERBOCKER" in raised letters above the frame. This entrance is
    now well within the fare-paid area, which would seem to doom any
    chances of it's ever being reopened!
    
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NEXT>7589
PREVIOUS>7579
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
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SUBJECT>Re: WHO'S GOT THE BEST?
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:23 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 30, 1997 at 13:54:41:

   In Reply to: [7]WHO'S GOT THE BEST? posted by SPENCER on December 30,
    1997 at 12:40:40:
    
    Here is what has to be done first: Turn off the Caps Lock key. If you
    think you know everything about subways since you've known about them
    since 1993, you could be overstating your case. As a comparison, I've
    known the intricacies of subways since I got my first NYC subway map
    in 1960, obtained reluctantly by my parents for their train-loving
    9-year old. I've travelled extensively on about 2/3 the subway systems
    in the US and Canada, and about 10 of them in Europe. Some are
    streetcars that run for some distance underground, like in Stuttgart,
    Germany. Some are much above ground like Chicago, Hamburg, Amsterdam
    (no matter what you say about them). Even London's is probably more
    outdoors than underground. Some are small, like Baltimore's one line,
    some you've never heard of, like Nurnberg or Ludwigshafen. Et cetera,
    et cetera....
    
    And I bet lots of the people here know a lot more about this stuff
    than I do!!!
    
    Anyway, down to cases...
    My personal favorites are Paris and Boston.
    
    Paris is just so darn convenient, with interesting stations, tunnels,
    trains with the seats that you put down to sit on, the subtle tone
    that sounds before the doors close (E above middle C), and the little
    handle you had to pull on to pop the doors open (now they use
    buttons).
    
    Boston is like being in a railroad amusement park, with 4 completely
    different lines each with its own extremely distinct personality.
    Every time you change lines, it's like entering a different world.
    
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NEXT>7588
PREVIOUS>7580
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
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SUBJECT>Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:25 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 30, 1997 at 13:57:44:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual
    names) posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 12:21:34:
    
    Yes. The Harlem River was rerouted to be straighter a long time ago.
    However, the land that used to be on the island of Manhattan but was
    moved to the Bronx by this River relocation is still part of New York
    County and the Borough of Manhattan. It even has Manhattan-colored
    street signs.
    
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NEXT>7590
PREVIOUS>7587
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
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SUBJECT>Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:27 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 14:01:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual
    names) posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 30, 1997 at 13:57:44:
    
    I thought they changed all the street signs citywide to green with
    white letters.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7586
POSTER>Mark Greenwald 
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SUBJECT>Re: WHO'S GOT THE BEST?
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:29 1998
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Posted by Mark Greenwald on December 30, 1997 at 14:17:28:

   In Reply to: [8]WHO'S GOT THE BEST? posted by SPENCER on December 30,
    1997 at 12:40:40:
    
    Oh---been riding the system since 1993?----A Whole 4-5 years----I
    guess You DO know everything about all the systems------------Do you
    want to be tested?
    
    
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NEXT>7592
PREVIOUS>7588
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
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SUBJECT>Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:30 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 30, 1997 at 14:29:01:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual
    names) posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 14:01:47:
    
    To be perfectly honest, I haven't been through that many boroughs in a
    number of years. Just Manhattan and the Flatbush part of Brooklyn. My
    mistake. But it used to be that way.
    
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NEXT>7595
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
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SUBJECT>R-62 question
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:36 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 14:33:40:

   I haven't ridden R-62's a whole lot since 1988, and last week I got on
    the 4 train and was surprised to see a full-width cab on an R-62. Have
    these been around all along? I can't remember ever seeing one before.
    
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NEXT>7726
PREVIOUS>7590
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
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SUBJECT>Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:41 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 14:37:31:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual
    names) posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 30, 1997 at 14:29:01:
    
    I miss the borough-specific street sign colors. This is how I remember
    them. Am I right?
    
    Manhattan: black on gold
    Brooklyn: white on black
    The Bronx: white on blue
    Queens: blue on white
    Staten Island: I forget -- anyone remember?
    
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NEXT>7594
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
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SUBJECT>Street signs
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:44 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 30, 1997 at 14:48:17:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual
    names) posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 14:37:31:
    
    Staten Island was also black on gold. Anyone have any idea as to what
    happened to all the old street signs? Here in Chicago, the City of
    Chicago store sells the old signs and you can even have one made up to
    order.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7593
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
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SUBJECT>Re: Street signs
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:47 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 15:20:19:

   In Reply to: [8]Street signs posted by Charles Fiori on December 30,
    1997 at 14:48:17:
    
    I saw some old NYC street signs at United Housewrecking in Stamford CT
    a few years ago. They also have their own R-1 out back, and they use
    it to store toilets and sinks!
    
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NEXT>7597
PREVIOUS>7591
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
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SUBJECT>Re: R-62 question
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:49 1998
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 30, 1997 at 15:29:55:

   In Reply to: [8]R-62 question posted by Timothy Speer on December 30,
    1997 at 14:33:40:
    
    Then that's not the only thing you've missed. TA has combined the
    R62's into 5-car sets, permanantly copuled, with full width cabs in
    cars 1 and 5.
    -Hank
    
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NEXT>7600
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Nick 
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SUBJECT>Electronic Stop Indicator Signs
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:51 1998
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Posted by Nick on December 30, 1997 at 15:54:59:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: R-62 question posted by Hank Eisenstein on
    December 30, 1997 at 15:29:55:
    
    Are the electronic stop indicator signs only on the R-110B, or are
    they also on the R-110A?-Nick
    
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NEXT>7659
PREVIOUS>7595
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
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SUBJECT>Re: R-62 question
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:54 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 16:07:43:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: R-62 question posted by Hank Eisenstein on
    December 30, 1997 at 15:29:55:
    
    I guess living in Buffalo for seven years will do that!
    
    Thanks!
    
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NEXT>
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POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
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SUBJECT>CAPS LOCK ON - Stop SHOUTING
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:56 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on December 30, 1997 at 17:56:19:

   A simple request to everyone who posts on SubTalk - check and make
    sure that the little light that shows that the Caps Lock is on is not
    lit. (That means that Caps Lock is OFF). Shouting is bad manners. If
    all of us were face-to face, shouting would be the worst bad manners.
    Same applies when we're on line.
    
    Thanks
    
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NEXT>7601
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
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SUBJECT>Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO /Link bad
DATE>Jan 5 22:17:58 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on December 30, 1997 at 18:04:06:

   In Reply to: [7]SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO posted by Jason on
    December 30, 1997 at 07:19:54:
    
    The www.transport.nsw.gov.au/lightrail in the post results in a "no
    dns" error in Netcape. Is this correct? It should be a interest to all
    of us with a light rail interest. Check it and please reply.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7596
POSTER>Steve 
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SUBJECT>Re: Electronic Stop Indicator Signs
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:00 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 30, 1997 at 19:22:55:

   In Reply to: [8]Electronic Stop Indicator Signs posted by Nick on
    December 30, 1997 at 15:54:59:
    
    If you are speaking of the electronic strip maps -they are not on the
    R-110A
    
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PREVIOUS>7599
POSTER>Jason 
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SUBJECT>Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO /Link bad
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:02 1998
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Posted by Jason on December 30, 1997 at 19:28:53:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO /Link bad posted
    by Dan Lawrence on December 30, 1997 at 18:04:06:
    
    I am suprised to get such a prompt reply - it is good to see that
    Americans are interested in matters outside the U.S !! (only kidding).
    I tried three times to reach the "bad connection" and succeeded each
    time (although I do have a Micrsoft browser - but that shouldn't
    affect things). If you still can't get through, the site can be found
    using Yahoo search engine, or probally others too.
    
    To access the site using Yahoo:
    (NB: "..." the quotation marks should not be typed)
    1. In intial search mode type "new south wales government"
    2. From results choose "States and territories: New South Wales
    Government" it should be number 3.
    3. Then choose "Departments"
    4. Then choose "Department of Transport"
    5. On the NSW Department of Transport home page appears a picture of
    the Sydney Light Rail at the Casino Station. Click on this picture and
    you should enter the site qucikly.
    6. The entire report can also be downloaded over the internet in
    addition to it being able to "seen" by scrolling pages. However, this
    function didn't work the last time I attempted to download the report.
    
    The report is quite interesting, if only for its pessimism with regard
    to low density land use being unable to support many of the
    shortlisted routes. Nevertheless, a number of viable cross city routes
    were identified including one passing through the new residential
    areas around the Olympic Site.
    
    You may also be interested to hear of the difficulties facing the
    proposed central city extension of the new light rail shown in some of
    the pictures of the site. The along street route is being opposed by
    some city centre retailers, as it passes through the Pitt Street
    pedestrian mall. Pitt St Mall commands the sixth highest rents of any
    street in the world and some of the land lords are unfortunately
    worried about a single light rail track. The private operators of the
    existing route are threatening to shelve the entire expansion plans -
    which also involves an extension along goods lines to the inner
    western suburbs - if the important city centre loop is not approved.
    Construction of this extension will begin early in 1998, IF approved.
    
    One more thing, I would really like to find out more about the
    Sheppard Street Subway. It is ironic that the best subway network in
    North Amercia has one of the worst home pages I have ever seen,
    especially when compared to the multi media displays detailing the
    major Jubilee underground extensions in London.
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>7616
PREVIOUS>7574
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Train Separates
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:04 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 30, 1997 at 19:30:39:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Train Separates posted by Wayne Johnson on
    December 30, 1997 at 11:24:43:
    
    I have only vague recollection of an incident with an R-44. I do,
    however, remember an incident with LIRR M-1s around woodside where 2
    cars stopped and the remaining 8 continued on to Jamaica. The crew was
    unaware that their rear end was missing. (except for the brakeman)
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7449
POSTER>wsteil 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Subways songs
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:06 1998
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Posted by wsteil on December 30, 1997 at 19:37:04:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Subways songs posted by Joe M on December 25, 1997
    at 23:50:11:
    
    The verse "Don't sleep in the subway, darlin' ..." comes from the
    Petula Clark song "Downtown".
    
    It has no connection with the Broadway musical "Subways Are For
    Sleeping"
    
    Some info on the musical:
    
    Music: Jule Styne
    Lyrics: Betty Comden + Adolph Green
    Premiere: Wednesday, December 27, 1961, St. James Theatre, (New York)
    Performances: 205
    
    Phyllis Newman
    Sydney Chaplin
    Gene Varrone
    Carol Lawrence - you've seen her on Carol Burnett's old show
    Orson Bean
    Cy Young
    Bob Gorman
    John Sharpe
    
    SOME OF THE SONGS:
    
    Subways are for sleeping
    Girls like me
    Subway directions
    Ride through the night
    I'm just taking my time
    I was a shoo-in
    Who knows what might have been?
    Strange duet
    Swing your projects
    I said it and I'm glad
    Be a Santa
    How can you describe a face?
    I just can't wait
    Comes once in a lifetime
    What is this feeling in the air?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7568
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:08 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 30, 1997 at 19:38:38:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Undesired Uncoupling vs Pull-Apart posted by Bill
    from S.I. on December 30, 1997 at 08:48:18:
    
    Sorry but I don't. Unfortunately, yard incidents are all too common.
    One reason is that signals USUALLY do not have trip arms for
    protection. The other reason is that much of the equipment moved in a
    yard is out of service for repair.
    
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NEXT>7636
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: What service changes are we expected to see after the 63rd St-Queens
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:10 1998
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   In Reply to: [7]What service changes are we expected to see after the
    63rd St-Queens Blvd Connection is completed. posted by Mike on
    December 29, 1997 at 11:00:22:
    
    Originally, it was supposed to be the V, which would run to 2nd Av. I
    suggested extending it to Church to allow the F to go express without
    having an alternating F service. This was all on the assumption that
    the Manhattan Bridge would be finished, and the Q would go back to
    Broadway. But now with the bridge projected to be in the current
    configuration (Bway side closed) until long after the connection
    opens, they've merged the Q and V into one service from Brighton Beach
    to 179th. They seem to be planning to leave it as the Q, but that will
    fix it permanently to 6th Av, so they should still call it the V, even
    if Q Bway service is not restored then.
    What I'd like to see when the Bridge is fully open, is the V to
    operate local in Queens, and to Church Av., and the Q to use the
    Bway-63rd connection and operate express in Queens. This would not
    only give local passengers 6th Av service, but also give Bway
    passengers express service and eliminate even more transfers at Queens
    Plaza. The V would terminate at 71st, and the both the F and Q would
    go to 179th, allowing one of them to go express between 71st and
    179th, and the local would of course switch to the express between
    71st and Queens Plz. (they ended F exp/R local service out there
    because the local passengers wanted direct express service.
    
    
    
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NEXT>7611
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Jeffrey from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>"New Tech" contract numbers
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:13 1998
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Posted by Jeffrey from Brooklyn on December 30, 1997 at 19:57:27:

   Does anybody know why the R-110 and R-110a are not known or called by
    their actual contract numbers of R-130 and R-131? From what I
    understand, the R-110 was the design contract for the new tech trains,
    not the actual cars as built.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>wsteil 
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SUBJECT>Re: SHEPPARD ST SUBWAY, TORONTO/New Link worked!
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:14 1998
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Posted by wsteil on December 30, 1997 at 19:59:04:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO /Link bad posted
    by Jason on December 30, 1997 at 19:28:53:
    
    Thanks for the yahoo info!
    
    The posted link gave the no dns message; the Yahoo link (which is the
    same as the link you typed) worked great. Go figure.
    
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NEXT>7617
PREVIOUS>7564
POSTER>Larry Littlefield 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:16 1998
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Posted by Larry Littlefield on December 30, 1997 at 20:43:30:

   In Reply to: [8]New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Mike K on
    December 29, 1997 at 22:41:46:
    
    I'm glad the MTA, which ostenably represents New York City in transit
    matters, is willing to help those with choices escape from Brooklyn to
    New Jersey as well as Long Island. I hope everyone can get out before
    the Manhattan Bridge rusts.
    
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NEXT>7635
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:18 1998
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Posted by Bobw on December 30, 1997 at 20:52:54:

   After reading the trials and tribulations of the Q and its quick
    changes of equipment, I wanted to pass along notice of the third (!)
    schedule change on the Broad St Subway here in Phila since Labor Day.
    
    The latest revision, effective 12/22, restores a service pattern that
    was introduced with the fall schedule changes in September. This
    extends the Ridge Spur from its off-peak terminal at Girard and peak
    terminal at Erie to Olney full-time during the day. Pull-ins and
    pull-outs start/end at Fern Rock. This pattern is in effect on
    weekdays. On Saturdays, all trains extend to Fern Rock. The big
    difference is that the Spur trains now operate express, where they
    were purely locals prior to September. These expresses stop at North
    Phila, while the Broad St expresses do not.
    
    On 10/27 this pattern was ended and Spur trains went back to their
    local duties at their old termini. Spur riders didn't like this and
    complained to SEPTA and some politicos and the September pattern was
    reinstituted.
    
    The Broad St expresses began to stop at North Phila also in September,
    but this stop is no longer an express train stop as of 12/22. To add
    to the confusion, however, Spur expresses DO stop at North Phila. I'm
    sure there will be complaints from express passengers who forget that
    the expresses that call at North Phila are headed for 8th & Market
    when the riders actually want to go further south on Broad St. (The
    Broad St subway is the one line in this town on which you REALLY have
    to watch the signs - and the signs on the Kawasakis aren't all that
    big or easy to read - one reason the schedules tell you to watch for
    the colors of the marker lights.)
    
    Broad St locals remain unchanged and are the only service provided on
    Sundays and holidays.
    
    At Fern Rock, trains have once again begun to go directly to the
    platform and change ends instead of the time-consuming move on
    northbound trains which looped around the yard facility in an attempt
    to move trains thru the station more quickly.
    
    NYCT fans will also note that the line is entirely OPTO and has been
    for a few years now. The Market-Frankford El will go OPTO with the
    M-4's.
    
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NEXT>7624
PREVIOUS>7543
POSTER>Larry Littlefield 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems - Need Ideas for MTA
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:20 1998
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Posted by Larry Littlefield on December 30, 1997 at 21:20:36:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems - Need Ideas for MTA
    posted by Taxpayer on December 29, 1997 at 09:04:14:
    
    I have already paid for it, and them some!
    
    Check out the economics section of NYC City Planning's Annual Report
    on Social Indicators, if they ever get around to publishing it. I
    write it. Or check out back issues (not last year, an election year,
    when I didn't say anything. You will find that New York City's taxes,
    as a share of the income of its residents, is nearly double the
    national average, but its spending on transportation, education,
    parks, etc is well below the national average -- year after year after
    year. Where does the money go? The poor? Are you kidding? Of the
    social services spending funded by the city's tax dollars, only 15
    percent went to the poor in cash. And that was in FY 1994 (they don't
    seem to want to publish this much anymore), before welfare reform
    started cutting people off.
    
    No. Much of the money goes to the health care services and non-profit
    social service agencies in the city, mostly through a Medicaid program
    which pays many times what every other state does for the same thing.
    These organizations kick back a share of the cash, mostly to the city
    Democratic legislators, who don't give a damn about anyone or anything
    else.
    
    Most of the rest goes to fund gold-plated public services and overpaid
    state and local workers elsewhere in the state. New York City has a
    big local government? Hardly. Local government payroll (including the
    T.A. and CUNY) accounts for about ten percent of all earnings at work
    in the city, compared with upwards of 15 percent in the rest of the
    state.
    
    No wonder New York City has to pay up 20 percent of the cost of its
    Medicaid program, while local government in the rest of the state pays
    only 15 percent. No wonder with 37 percent of the students, our
    schools get just 30 to 35 percent of the money. Until they created
    this whole new form of school aid (STAR), which the city will receive
    only 27 percent sometime in the future (less today, more promised
    later -- maybe). That is why with 40 percent of the state's residents
    living here and 54 percent working here, the city gets only 31 percent
    of state transportation aid -- not including the state road workers,
    none of whom work here. That is why the city contributes to the T.A.,
    but no one asks Nassau to contribute to the LIRR.
    
    That's the deal, with Republicans and Democrats both in. They see no
    future for the state, certainly not the city, by they are kept in
    office by their cozy arrangement and by ballot laws which prevent
    anyone else from running. If anyone, they represent the people who are
    moving out (why not have the nation's biggest debt). The victims are
    anyone who has lived here less than 20 years, and anyone who intends
    to live here more than ten years more. Yuppies? Immigrants? Latinos?
    West Indians? Suckers. Then there are those of us who happen to like
    living here (everything except the government is good here) who are
    stuck just the same.
    
    With Cuomo in, the medico-industrial complex got more -- its
    employment rose from 300,000 in 1983 to 460,000 today, and its still
    going up. See all those new hospital buildings? See those crumbling
    schools and rusting bridges? Duh! With Pataki in, the suburbs and
    upstate get more -- with revenues down the city gots cut, with
    revenues up the money is spent elsewhere -- even though the revenues
    are generated here. Pataki hates this city, but he is doing NYC less
    damage than its own representatives!
    
    Then there are all those nice state laws, and the leeches who know how
    to work them, which force us to waste what little we get. I met a T.A.
    engineer at a state campground this summer, and he told me that at
    least one-third of all T.A. capital spending is wasted/ripped-off.
    That's right. Lawyers bid low and win the bids, the sub-contract the
    job. Their role is to sue the T.A. and put documentation in place to
    "prove" the late, lousy work and costs overruns are not their fault.
    If a private company was treated like that, it would never do business
    with that entity again. But the TA must -- its their legal right! And
    how about the Wicks Law, which add 20 percent and causes some jobs
    never to be finished.
    
    The Vampire State. The Mayor has carried on like a nut and
    accomplished little (I give him great credit for the little in the
    report, since the alternative was for things to get worse). But there
    is only one way out. Cut state taxes, and eliminate the state role in
    most public services. Eliminate all federal transportation spending.
    Break up the MTA -- if Long Island wants the Grand Central Connection,
    use a dedicated commuter tax surcharge to fund it. Raise local taxes
    to make up 80 percent of the difference, and start spending the money
    in sensible ways. You pay for yours, we'll pay for ours, and we'll cut
    out the middlemen in Albany and Washington. Then we can afford to pay
    for the infrastructure improvements made routinely everywhere else in
    the country.
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>7620
PREVIOUS>7606
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: "New Tech" contract numbers
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:22 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 21:44:16:

   In Reply to: [8]"New Tech" contract numbers posted by Jeffrey from
    Brooklyn on December 30, 1997 at 19:57:27:
    
    I'll venture to guess that when the design of the trains was announced
    and reported in the press, the name "R-110A/B" must have stuck. It's
    kind of like the IND, BMT and IRT - these 'divisions' haven't existed
    for years on official NYC Transit press but people still refer to the
    numbered lines as IRT, and the lines in Brooklyn the BMT and the
    6th/8th avenue lines (and Queens Blvd Lines) as the IND.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7631
PREVIOUS>7578
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:24 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 21:51:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Changes on MUNI in San Francisco posted by Todd
    Glickman on December 30, 1997 at 12:40:16:
    
    Wow, Todd, you surely do get around! Are you doing weekend weather
    stints at a California all news station? :)
    
    Seriously, you said that "In addition, when two or three car trains
    are used, the operator in the front car will control the doors in all
    cars, and
    there will be no personnel in the trailer cars." Do you know how the
    POP system would be enforced in cases like this?
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7800
PREVIOUS>7565
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:26 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 21:58:29:

   In Reply to: [8]SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO posted by Jason on
    December 30, 1997 at 07:19:54:
    
    I use Netscape Navigator 4 and had no trouble with the link given.
    
    Try this link to the [9]Sydney new cross
    metropolitan light rail routes discussion.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7626
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Dual Street Named Stations (was: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:28 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual
    names) posted by si2000 on December 30, 1997 at 08:22:33:
    
    Looking at the Sept 1997 subway map, dual-named stations appear to
    have parenthesis around them, as opposed to a station with 2 street
    names; for example, on the #7 line, you'd see "46th St (Bliss St)" as
    opposed to "Sutter Ave - Rutland Road" on the 3 line. Apparently, NYC
    Transit does not appear to give all the Rockaway stops on the A line
    dual names; those that represent neighborhood (or postal) names don't
    have parenthesis (Seaside, Playland, Holland, Edgemere, Wavecrest) and
    those that represent street names do (see below). One exception -
    "Beach 67 St (Gaston)" has the parenthesis around it.
    
    Anyway, those stations with dual names are:
    
    Line: Station:
    -------- --------------------------------
    5 Nereid Ave (238 St)
    2/5 East Tremont Ave (West Farms Sq)
    
    A Dyckman St (200 St)
    A, 1/9,
    B,C,D Cathedral Parkway (110 St)
    
    A 80 St (Hudson St)
    A 88 St (Boyd Ave)
    A 104 St (Oxford Av)
    A 111 St (Greenwood Av)
    A Beach 67 St (Gaston)
    A Beach 60 St (Straiton Av)
    A Beach 44 St (Frank Av)
    
    N Astoria Blvd (Hoyt Av)
    N 30 Ave (Grand Ave)
    N 36 Ave (Washington Ave)
    N 39 Ave (Beebe Ave)
    
    2/3 Central Park North (110 St)
    
    G 21 St (Van Alst)
    
    7 33 St (Rawson St)
    7 40 St (Lowery St)
    7 46 St (Bliss St)
    7 52 St (Lincoln Av)
    7 69 St (Fisk Av)
    
    E,F 23 St (Ely Av)
    
    Along the F line, "22nd Ave - Bay Parkway" is now listed as "Bay Pkwy"
    and "Van Sicklen" which became "Neptune Av - Van Sicklen" is now known
    as, simply, "Neptune Ave". Also along this line in Queens, we have an
    opposite situation - the station of "Van Wyck Blvd" refers to a street
    that does not exist anymore. The neighboorhood the station is in is
    attempting to get the station renamed for itself (whose name escapes
    me at the moment). And, the station "Woodhaven Blvd - Slattery Plaza"
    (E,F,G,N) is now known on the map as "Woodhaven Blvd - Queens Mall".
    The station formerly known as "Canal St - Holland Tunnel" (A,C,E) has
    been known as "Canal St" for quite some time now.
    
    So, of the above stations with dual names, how many exist? I checked a
    Geographia 5 Borough Atlas from 1982 (the oldest one I have with an
    index of streets) and came up with the following:
    
    Nereid Ave (238 St) - 238 St exists but not near White Plains Road.
    East Tremont Ave (West Farms Sq) - West Farms Square is still listed.
    Dyckman St (200 St) - 200 St is not listed in the index.
    Cathedral Parkway (110 St) - 110 St officially exists on the East Side
    but not the West Side.
    
    80 St (Hudson St), 88 St (Boyd Ave), 104 St (Oxford Av), 111 St
    (Greenwood Av), Beach 67 St (Gaston), Beach 60 St (Straiton Av) and
    Beach 44 St (Frank Av) - all parenthesized names were not found in the
    index.
    
    Astoria Blvd (Hoyt Av) - the atlas lists a Hoyt Ave north and south,
    and these streets form the service road for the Grand Central Pkwy
    between 31st and 19th St in Astoria.
    
    30 Ave (Grand Ave) - Grand Ave is a major Queens thorofare but NOT in
    Astoria, Queens!
    
    36 Ave (Washington Ave) and 39 Ave (Beebe Ave) - the parenthesized
    names do not exist in the index.
    
    21 St (Van Alst) - Van Alst does not exist in the index.
    
    33 St (Rawson St), 40 St (Lowery St), 46 St (Bliss St), 52 St (Lincoln
    Av),
    and 69 St (Fisk Av) - all parenthesized names do not exist in the
    index, except there IS a Lincoln St starting at Rockaway Blvd in South
    Ozone Park and ending at 111th Ave / Van Wyck Expresway in Jamaica.
    
    23 St (Ely Av) - no Ely Av in Queens, according to the map.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>2nd Ave or Manhattan Bridge Alternative (was: Re: Larry Reuter Interview on
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:31 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: Larry Reuter Interview on WNBC-TV Today posted by
    Adam on December 29, 1997 at 19:21:12:
    
    Out of curiosity, if you were head of the MTA, and had enough money
    for one of these 2 important projects, but not both, what would you
    choose, and why:
    - Manhattan Bridge alternative (Rutgers St tunnel connection, etc)
    - 2nd Ave Subway
    
    My choice - Mahnattan Bridge replacement (even though I'd really want
    to see 2nd Ave built). Without it, there's no subway service to
    Brooklyn and no real alternatives. You'd kill 6th Ave line trunk
    service. You've got to keep what you already have. For the East Side,
    as crowded as the 4/5/6 lines are, at least they exist.
    
    I think that once the MTA gets the money to build 2nd Ave, they're
    going to put it to a Manhattan Bridge replacement project. I think
    it's going to take that long to finally decide to do it, after
    studying it to death.
    
    Maybe my children will be able to ride a 2nd Ave subway, but I don't
    think I'm gonna be able to. (Well, at least I can say I was IN it!)
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7602
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Train Separates
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:32 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 23:19:14:

   In Reply to: [8]Train Separates posted by George on December 28, 1997
    at 11:03:21:
    
    San Francisco's MUNI has had numerous "undesired decouplings" of its
    Boeing LRVs when they are MU'ed together.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7632
PREVIOUS>7608
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:35 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on December 30, 1997 at 23:26:37:

   In Reply to: [8]New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Mike K on
    December 29, 1997 at 22:41:46:
    
    Fascinating! I wonder exactly how they're going to get trains into
    Grand Central from the south. That's a pretty deep tunnel, and under
    the Lexington Avenue lines, no less.
    I don't recall hearing about any unused PATH tunnels in midtown. Even
    if they exist wouldn't they be the wrong dimensions? Whatever tunnels
    are there won't help much.
    Doesn't NJ transit use Sunnyside now? Who uses it besides Amtrak (I
    never seem to see too many working LIRR trains there)? Where are rush
    hour NJ transit trains stored now? Back in NJ?
    It's about time they considered adding a new tunnel under the Hudson!
    It sure seems like they push a lot trains through just 2 tubes. As for
    PATH, I'm not sure if they will be considered losers - they're stuffed
    to the gills as it is, and I'm not sure how many people would switch
    to a Hoboken-to-Penn Station line with its probably higher fare.
    
    
    
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NEXT>7619
PREVIOUS>7582
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:38 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 23:30:26:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by
    Mike B on December 28, 1997 at 16:04:20:
    
    According to the publication "New York City Transit's Facts and
    Figures" dated 5/95:
    
    Underground: 277
    Elevated: 153
    Embankment: 18 (corrected for 1997; in 1995, the Dean St station
    existed and would be considered embankment, so this number USED to be
    20)
    Open Cut: 20
    
    Total: 468
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7637
PREVIOUS>7618
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:41 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 23:35:56:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by
    ALEX on December 30, 1997 at 12:29:28:
    
    You might be confusing "route miles" with "track miles".
    
    According to the publication "New York City Transit's facts and
    Figures", dated 5/95, page 20:
    
    Mainline Track Miles for Passenger Service:
    - Underground: 443
    - Elevated: 156
    - At grade / open cut: 57
    
    Total: 656 miles
    
    Route Miles:
    - Manhattan: 71
    - Queens: 42
    - Bronx: 33
    - Brooklyn: 84
    
    Total: 230 miles
    
    --Mark
    
    
    
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NEXT>7629
PREVIOUS>7611
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: "New Tech" contract numbers
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:44 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 30, 1997 at 23:41:31:

   In Reply to: [8]"New Tech" contract numbers posted by Jeffrey from
    Brooklyn on December 30, 1997 at 19:57:27:
    
    I believe that the RFP (request for proposal) was numbered R-110XX and
    althought the trainw were purchased under other contract #s, the R-110
    just stuck.
    BTW - The RFP for the R-143 closes January 5th. The contract should be
    awarded shortly after that date.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 2nd Ave or Manhattan Bridge Alternative (was: Re: Larry Reuter Interview
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:48 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]2nd Ave or Manhattan Bridge Alternative (was: Re:
    Larry Reuter Interview on WNBC-TV Today) posted by Mark S Feinman on
    December 30, 1997 at 23:13:57:
    
    As adamant as I am about the 2nd Ave. Subway, I'd agree with you that
    maintaining service to Brooklyn is a more important priority. It would
    be a disaster having no replacement to the Manhattan Bridge. So that
    is why the MTA should fund the 2nd Ave. Subway now, while the
    Manhattan Bridge is still in service and then in 5 or 10 years use the
    money then to fund the tunnel construction. I know these are huge,
    costly projects but I think that with assistance from the state and
    city, these vital projects could get done. Heck, I'd even be in favor
    of revoking these new fare cutbacks to see these projects get done but
    I don't think that'd be too popular with the straphangers.
    
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NEXT>7639
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations & track/route mileage - Addendum
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:50 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 23:49:32:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by
    Mark S Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 23:35:56:
    
    Found a page from the Federal Transit Administration with a whole slew
    of [9]statistics of nearly every mode of rail in the US.
    
    In terms of "directional route miles", it's DC 178.2 and NYC 492.9.
    
    In terms of track miles (I guess both revenue and non-revenue, the
    chart doesn't indicate otherwise), it's DC 192 and NYC 834.2.
    
    Number of stations in NY: 468.
    
    Data accurate as of early 1995.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7641
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Best & Worst Lines/F Train Blues
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:52 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 30, 1997 at 23:51:29:

   For all those who posted comments about the Best & Worst Subway Lines
    & especially for those who posted about the F train Blues, each was
    printed and faxed to the appropriate location this morning.
    
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NEXT>7763
PREVIOUS>7610
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems - Need Ideas for MTA
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:55 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 23:54:11:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems - Need Ideas for MTA
    posted by Taxpayer on December 29, 1997 at 09:04:14:
    
    Well, if the existing tunnels can handle the load, where are the B, D
    and Q trains gonna go?? How are they going to get to the 6th Avenue
    trunk line? What line would service Grand Street?
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7642
PREVIOUS>7542
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Oops!
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:57 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on December 31, 1997 at 00:04:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Oops! posted by Timothy Speer on December 29, 1997 at
    08:44:15:
    
    No, you were right - I did mean the wooden turnstiles, though I never
    really considered them made out of wood - more like layers of paint!
    8-)
    
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NEXT>7660
PREVIOUS>7614
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Dual Street Named Stations (was: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names
DATE>Jan 5 22:18:59 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Dual Street Named Stations (was: Another Flushing Line
    Question-St.Names (dual names)) posted by Mark S Feinman on December
    30, 1997 at 23:02:47:
    
    Another interesting feature of the subway map is the way some stations
    include neighborhood names. Examples include 7 Main St Flushing; M
    Metropolitan Ave Middle Village; and A 207 St Inwood. Most of these
    are terminal stations.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Nick Battaglino 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Electronic Stop Indicator Signs-I answered my own question!!
DATE>Jan 5 22:19:01 1998
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Posted by Nick Battaglino on December 31, 1997 at 00:28:36:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Electronic Stop Indicator Signs posted by Steve on
    December 30, 1997 at 19:22:55:
    
    The R110-A does have the electronic stop indicator sign...the electric
    sign in the middle of the train telling you what the next stop is.
    Ironically, on the same day of asking this, I went into NYC (I live in
    Ct). I was waiting for the #2....and can you guess which train came!!!
    See my other R-110 post.....-NICK :)
    
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NEXT>7655
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!!
DATE>Jan 5 22:19:05 1998
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Posted by Nick on December 31, 1997 at 00:44:13:

   The moment I've been waiting for finally came!! My friend and I were
    in Times Square, getting ready to go to Grand Central. It was decided
    it was too cold to walk, so the subway would be the means of
    transportation. Now normally you would take the shuttle to Grand
    Central, but we had time to kill, and I knew there was a fraction of a
    chance that I might get a ride on the R110-A, so I said what the heck,
    we'll take the long route. So I hopped on the downtown platform at
    9:15 PM (Dec 30th) and in 2 min, I saw the train lights. This was the
    moment of truth...would it be a regular redbird, or high-tech? Well, I
    saw the front of the train that was stainless steel, and black in the
    front!!!! My mouth dropped wide open, and inside I was jumping for
    joy!! I was finally in a situation that I have been waiting for for
    2-3 years!!
    Very much excited, I hopped on the train w/my friend, and sat down in
    one of the cars w/blue seats (forgot to catch the #) The train was
    neat!! I loved the computerized voice telling you everything you need
    to know about doors closing, what the next stop was and it's
    connecting trains. And I answered my own question by seeing the
    electronic next stop indicator.
    Luckily the train wasn't crowded, since I did notice how few seats
    there were, and I could imagine how bad the train can be if it was
    packed.
    I only got to ride the train for 5 minutes, and for that amount of
    time, the seats were comftorable...but I wonder if they would get
    uncomftorable if I rode it longer...like other people have said they
    are.
    So that's my story. I'm sure some of you think (but certainly lots of
    you understand) I have too much time on my hands, or that I don't get
    out very much. But that's not the case. Trains (especially subways)
    and high-tech things are a big hobby of mine. So I have been wanting
    to ride this since I heard about it, and my little dream finally came
    true....and helped 1997 end w/ a BANG! The MTA knew how to make my
    day!! Sorry for the long post....I don't get to write stuff like this
    very often!!-NICK
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7620
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: "New Tech" contract numbers
DATE>Jan 5 22:19:08 1998
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Posted by Nick on December 31, 1997 at 00:47:18:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: "New Tech" contract numbers posted by Mark S
    Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 21:44:16:
    
    I can't wait for the R142s and R143s to arrive. I know they are
    expected to arrive in 1999...but what part of that year are they
    supposed to arrive (Early, mid, or late '99?)-NICK
    
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NEXT>7634
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Steve L 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA
DATE>Jan 5 22:19:13 1998
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Posted by Steve L on December 31, 1997 at 00:49:22:

   Can anyone assist me in obtaining a list of destination signs for NJT
    Commuter Rail or
    SEPTA Regionals and Rapid Transit Lines (No Buses0
    )
    
    
    Thank you
    
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NEXT>7638
PREVIOUS>7612
POSTER>david vartanoff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
DATE>Jan 5 22:19:15 1998
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Posted by david vartanoff on December 31, 1997 at 00:53:48:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco posted by Mark S
    Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 21:51:22:
    
    In general POP systems out here (San Jose, Sacremento) entail
    randomized sweeps by cops or fare enforcers who walk through the cars
    challenging all riders to produce 'proof'. It has been said by Muni
    that up to 75% of riders in rush hour are flashpass users , thus it's
    mostly moot.
    
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NEXT>7633
PREVIOUS>7617
POSTER>Mike K 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
DATE>Jan 5 22:19:20 1998
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Posted by Mike K on December 31, 1997 at 01:36:49:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Andrew
    Huie on December 30, 1997 at 23:26:37:
    
    Andrew-
    
    Let me answer some of your questions in order, to the best of my
    ability.
    
    Regarding the tunnel issue: apparently, there is some "open space" or
    unused right of way which was to be used at one time to extend PATH to
    the Grand Central area. That would be used to as part of the new
    tunnel. One thing I did not mention: the southbound Lex Avenue local
    track would have to be relocated. The plan would shift the track to
    the west (closer to the shuttle, which means the track 1 connection
    would have to be rejiggered).
    Even if the PATH "right of way" (let's call it that, for lack of proof
    of an actual tunnel) is too small, it can be widened somewhat to fit
    the larger trains. That, in itself, would be easier that drilling an
    entirely new tunnel.
    The plan would involve boring out a new tunnel from the Penn Station
    area (and the right of way Penn Station has retained under some Penn
    Plaza buildings) to the area of this PATH "right of way" into Grand
    Central. I think it would be quicker, but MUCH MORE disruptive, to use
    cut and cover. Cut and cover is apparently out of the question.
    
    As for train storage, I don't know if NJT stores any of its trains at
    Sunnyside now. I do know some are laid up at the platform areas during
    the midday, which eliminates capacity during late am rush and early pm
    rush. That would be one of the issues they're trying to address.
    
    Also, one quick correction: the tunnel, and associated new connection,
    would not be anywhere near Hoboken. It would originate in the Secaucus
    Transfer area, a few miles west.
    
    Kind regards,
    Michael
    
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NEXT>7646
PREVIOUS>7632
POSTER>Mike K 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
DATE>Jan 5 22:19:23 1998
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Posted by Mike K on December 31, 1997 at 01:40:01:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Mike K
    on December 31, 1997 at 01:36:49:
    
    AndrewÐ
    
    A little error on my part. The fourth paragraph in my reply (third of
    the three paragraphs bunched together) should read as follows:
    
    The plan to create a tunnel between Penn Station and Grand Central
    would involve boring out a new tunnel from the Penn Station area (and
    the right of way Penn Station has retained under some Penn Plaza
    buildings) to the area of this PATH "right of way" into Grand Central.
    I think it would be quicker, but MUCH MORE disruptive, to use cut and
    cover. Cut and cover is apparently out of the question.
    
    
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NEXT>7640
PREVIOUS>7630
POSTER>Mike K 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA
DATE>Jan 5 22:19:25 1998
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Posted by Mike K on December 31, 1997 at 01:53:43:

   In Reply to: [8]Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA posted by Steve L on
    December 31, 1997 at 00:49:22:
    
    For SEPTA regional rails, here are the ones I can think of off the top
    of my head...
    R1-Airport
    R1-Glenside
    R2-Marcus Hook
    R2-Wilmington (DE)
    R2-Newark (DE)
    R2-Warminster
    R3-West Trenton
    R3-Media
    R3-Elwyn
    R5-Downingtown
    R5-Malvern
    R5-Paoli
    R5-Lansdale
    R5-Doylestown
    R6-Elm Street (Norristown)
    R6-Cynwyd
    R7-Trenton
    R7-Chestnut Hill East
    R8-Chestnut Hill West
    R8-Fox Chase
    Center City
    
    There are also "local," "express," and "limited" signs that can be
    added in certain cases on the R2, R3 and R5.
    
    The color schemes are:
    R1-black letters on yellow background
    R2-white letters on maroon background
    R3-white letters on orange background
    R5-white letters on blue background
    R7-white letters on red background
    R8-white letters on brown background
    The center city designator, as well as the "express," "local," and
    "limited designators, are done in white letters on a black background.
    
    Hope this helps on the regional rail.
    
    Michael
    
    
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NEXT>7644
PREVIOUS>7609
POSTER>Mike K 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:19:28 1998
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Posted by Mike K on December 31, 1997 at 02:02:43:

   In Reply to: [8]Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by Bobw
    on December 30, 1997 at 20:52:54:
    
    Bob
    
    Being a Philly resident for two years now, and having been in the city
    regularly since 1993 (my wife is a born and bred Philadelphian), I
    have a question you might be able to answer.
    
    Why do the Broad Street line express trains only run to Walnut-Locust,
    instead of all the way to Pattison? I know there is a lay-up track
    right beyond the Walnut-Locust station for express trains. Is there,
    or was there ever, a lay-up track or loop for the locals?
    
    It would make more sense, in my mind, to run locals from Fern Rock to
    Walnut-Locust and expresses from Fern Rock to Pattison. The train that
    makes the fewest stops in a given space should cover the longest
    distance, no? Or is that something only an "amateur" transit "expert"
    would consider proper?
    
    Michael
    
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NEXT>7648
PREVIOUS>7605
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: What service changes are we expected to see after the 63rd St-Queens
DATE>Jan 5 22:19:30 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: What service changes are we expected to see after
    the 63rd St-Queens Blvd Connection is completed. posted by Eric B on
    December 30, 1997 at 19:49:34:
    
    Regarding the 63rd Street line: The way it sounds from the
    construction, you will only be able run local service into the 63rd
    Street connection, unless you have trains switching tracks at
    Roosevelt. Remember, it appears they're only connecting the local
    tracks on the Queens Blvd line to 63rd Street. Or am I mistaken?
    
    
    
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NEXT>7645
PREVIOUS>7619
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:19:32 1998
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on December 31, 1997 at 04:10:07:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by
    Mark S Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 23:30:26:
    
    Um, don't you mean 19? or did they cout everything twice?
    -Hank
    
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NEXT>7667
PREVIOUS>7631
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
DATE>Jan 5 22:19:34 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on December 31, 1997 at 07:36:19:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco posted by Mark S
    Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 21:51:22:
    
    The MUNI brochure says that roving inspectors will check fares. The
    fine for not having a ticket or Flashpass is $126.
    
    To answer your question, no, I won't be on KNX 1070 or KFWB News98
    (Los Angeles), or KCBS All-news 74 (San Francisco). In fact, I leave
    Boston in a few hours and will take my "favorite and best commute":
    MBTA Green Line, Blue Line, Logan Bus 22, USAirways Shuttle to LGA,
    Q-33, then E-train to 5th/52nd, and will be on WCBS Newsradio-88 this
    afternoon and all day tomorrow to celebrate the New Year. Too bad
    there's no "Q" service on New Year's Day... but I have been known to
    say on the radio, "It's going to be a nice day to ride a Slant 40 over
    the Manhattan Bridge to get that great view of the city." Now THAT's
    Transit and Weather Together!
    
    Happy New Year to all.
    
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NEXT>7736
PREVIOUS>7622
POSTER>Bob A 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations & track/route mileage - Addendum
DATE>Jan 5 22:19:36 1998
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Posted by Bob A on December 31, 1997 at 08:24:49:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Number of stations & track/route mileage -
    Addendum posted by Mark S Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 23:49:32:
    
    There was a question (I mean answer!) on Jeopardy! yesterday which
    said that there were 469 stations. I wonder where they got their info
    from.
    
    
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NEXT>7647
PREVIOUS>7634
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA
DATE>Jan 5 22:19:38 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 31, 1997 at 09:43:53:

   In Reply to: [7]Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA posted by Steve L on
    December 31, 1997 at 00:49:22:
    
    The Market-Frankford Subway Elevated (MFSE) has no signs, just lit up
    white letters "A" and "B" for its skip-stop service. The two terminals
    are 69th St. and Bridge-Pratt Streets.
    
    The Broad Street Subway has a bunch of prepared glass displays that
    light up depending on what train it is. I believe the signs are:
    
    o Pattison
    o Walnut-Locust
    o Girard
    o Erie
    o Fern Rock
    o 8th-Market
    o Olney
    o Local
    o Express (lights up Green)
    
    There may be one or two more on there.
    
    The PATCO line into NJ is similar lit up lights:
    
    o 15-16 St. Locust
    o Ferry Avenue Camden
    o Haddonfield
    o Lindenwold
    o Local
    o Express
    
    There may be others. Someone who is currently in Philadelphia can
    correct this but this is a start, at least.
    
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NEXT>7657
PREVIOUS>7623
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Best & Worst Lines/F Train Blues
DATE>Jan 5 22:19:41 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 31, 1997 at 09:44:23:

   In Reply to: [7]Best & Worst Lines/F Train Blues posted by Steve on
    December 30, 1997 at 23:51:29:
    
    What is the appropriate location?
    
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NEXT>7682
PREVIOUS>7625
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Oops!
DATE>Jan 5 22:19:43 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on December 31, 1997 at 09:48:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Oops! posted by Andrew Huie on December 31, 1997
    at 00:04:22:
    
    So, what color was the outer coating of paint when they removed them?
    I remember the ones at 2nd Ave as being yellow, with the surrounding
    metal base of the unit blue.
    
    
    
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NEXT>7651
PREVIOUS>7552
POSTER>Chris C. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Theft of Services
DATE>Jan 5 22:19:45 1998
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Posted by Chris C. on December 31, 1997 at 10:04:50:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Theft of Services posted by Fernando Perez on
    December 29, 1997 at 03:24:48:
    
    Perhaps it's the overtime that keeps 2,3,4,5, and sometimes even 6
    officers standing around all morning or evening at the turnstiles
    waiting for someone to jump over right in front of them. It seems to
    me they could save a lot of money by laying off 5 of the officers and
    putting the 6th in plain clothes riding the cars. He could start on
    the F Train which is always hip deep in trash, or in the last car of
    the #1 train which many Westsiders refered to as the "smoking car".
    
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NEXT>7669
PREVIOUS>7635
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:19:47 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 31, 1997 at 10:07:44:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by
    Mike K on December 31, 1997 at 02:02:43:
    
    Here's the service pattern during midday:
    
    A Broad St. local from Pattison to Fern Rock every 7 minutes.
    A Broad St. express from Walnut-Locust to Fern Rock every 14 minutes.
    A Ridge Avenue express from 8th-Market to Olney every 14 minutes.
    
    The service is every 3 minutes, 6 minutes, and 6 minutes during rush
    hour.
    
    They alternate expresses since all the express-local service is north
    of Girard where the two lines meet (actually they practically meet at
    the Fairmount local/Ridge Avenue stop, but that's getting complicated
    already).
    
    Most people from South Philadelphia are headed to Center City, not
    North Philadelphia, just as most Brooklyn people are headed for
    Manhattan, not the Bronx.
    
    To have the local go to Walnut-Locust and the Express go to Pattison
    requires the local to switch tracks 3 times between the southbound
    local at City Hall and the northbound local platform after turning
    around at Walnut-Locust. The express then uses the same switches to
    shrink into the two-track line to South Philadelphia. In New York,
    that is why the Q express ends at Brighton Beach and the D local goes
    into Coney Island. It is mostly logistics for the turnaround.
    
    Many years ago when the rush hour service was Local: 8th-Market to
    Erie, and Express: Pattison-Fern Rock, this problem did not exist, but
    with less but faster service to 8th-Market, this logistics problem at
    Walnut-Locust now exists.
    
    For those who are wondering: Yes, the expresses skipped Fairmount
    Avenue, and the Ridge Ave. line was the only service at that stop
    during rush hours in the old days. No, there were no express tracks
    north of Erie Avenue back then, just the empty track bed. The tracks
    were built about 12 years ago, I believe. Now with these new tracks
    the express service is great. You just have to watch which one you get
    and change at Girard if it is the wrong one.
    
    
    Here is a map of the Septa System, if I did the link right:
    
    Full Septa Map
    
    The Broad Street System is the yellow vertical line. The Ridge Avenue
    Spur is a small branch to the southeast from the Girard Avenue
    Station. It meets the Market St. Subway and the Patco Line at 8th St.
    
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NEXT>7689
PREVIOUS>7637
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:19:49 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on December 31, 1997 at 10:30:37:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by
    ALEX on December 30, 1997 at 12:29:28:
    
    I hesitate to contradict someone so certain of his facts, but as a
    resident of Maryland a mere 10 miles from the DC line, I must say that
    we only have 85 route miles, and about 70 stations.
    
    About 15 miles more will be built over the next 5 years. It is the
    second largest subway system in the the US in terms of unduplicated
    route miles, 1/3 the size of New York and just a bit larger than
    Chicago, with an area population of about 3.5 million. DC itself has
    500,000 people in a land mass a bit smaller than Brooklyn.
    
    We also have carpeting, comfortable seats, no graffiti that is not
    erased overnight, quiet trains, and high usage (though not as high as
    the Lexington Avenue subway). The highest fare is $3.25 in rush hour
    but it gets you a 17-mile ride from Gaithersurg, Maryland to the White
    House, longer than that from 179 St.-Jamaica to Herald Square. The
    lowest is $1.10.
    
    However, the trains all look alike (no variety as in other cities) and
    there is no 3- or 4-track express service on any of the lines.
    Sometimes skip-stop service is proposed, but we don't have that
    either.
    
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NEXT>7650
PREVIOUS>7633
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
DATE>Jan 5 22:19:51 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on December 31, 1997 at 13:11:02:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Mike K
    on December 31, 1997 at 01:40:01:
    
    NJT does store trains at Sunnyside along with AMTRAK. There is a tunne
    connecting Penn Station to Sunnyside. Some one may correct me, but I
    do not think it connects to Grand Central. QUESTION: When AMTRAk did
    go to Grand Central, how did the trains get there- from the New Haven
    Line?
    
    
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NEXT>7722
PREVIOUS>7640
POSTER>Michael S. Buglak 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA
DATE>Jan 5 22:19:53 1998
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Posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 31, 1997 at 13:13:23:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA posted by Mike K
    on December 31, 1997 at 01:53:43:
    
    I have also seen these signs on SEPTA Regional Rail:
    R2 Baldwin (not currently used) (White On Maroon)
    R3 Secane (White On Orange)
    R5 Bryn Mawr (White On Blue)
    Center City Philadelphia (Black on Yellow)
    Glenside (White On Black)
    No Riders (small Yellow On Red)
    30th Street Station (White On Black)
    Suburban Station (White On Black)
    Market East Station (White On Black)
    The SEPTA signs are about 16" wide by 3" high. They are printed on
    both sides (example-R6 Norristown/R6 Cynwyd) & made to fit into racks
    in the front window & sides of all cars. SEPTA does not use electronic
    destination signs on Regional Rail cars.
    
    BTW, the color for the R6 line is White On Green.
    Hope this helps!-Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
    
    
    
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NEXT>7668
PREVIOUS>7636
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: What service changes are we expected to see after the 63rd St-Queens
DATE>Jan 5 22:20:05 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: What service changes are we expected to see after
    the 63rd St-Queens Blvd Connection is completed. posted by Mike K on
    December 31, 1997 at 02:09:38:
    
    The 63 street tracks will come up between the local and express track
    and then the track will end and trains will be switched to either
    Local or Express to Queens. To Manhattan, the local track swings
    outward (That's where the big hole is now) and a new track will be
    inserted. Thsi new track will be the track to go to the 63 street
    tunnel.
    Source: NYC Suwbay Track Map Book
    
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NEXT>7653
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Michael S. Buglak 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway (Lower Level @ Pattison Ave.)
DATE>Jan 5 22:20:16 1998
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Posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 31, 1997 at 13:18:09:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by
    Carl M. Rabbin on December 31, 1997 at 10:07:44:
    
    If I remember correctly, Pattison Avenue on SEPTA's Broad Street
    Subway is a 2-level station. Usually, only the upper level is in use.
    Has the lower level platform been used any time recently? If not, has
    it ever been used in revenue service?
    Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
    
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NEXT>7652
PREVIOUS>7646
POSTER>Dan Schwartz 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
DATE>Jan 5 22:20:20 1998
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Posted by Dan Schwartz on December 31, 1997 at 13:40:26:

   In Reply to: [8]New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Mike K on
    December 29, 1997 at 22:41:46:
    
    I have often wondered if it would be possible to directly connect
    Grand Central and Penn Station via tracks under Park Ave. connecting
    with the LIRR/Amtrak tunnel to Queens, and concluded that it really
    wouldn't be.
    
    Under this stretch of Park Ave. today there is, first, the vehicular
    tunnel from 32nd to 40th Streets and, second, the Lexington Ave.
    subway. A rail tunnel would have to be under the subway, deep enough
    not to undermine it -- which means it would probably be at the wrong
    level to connect with the existing crosstown tunnel. I guess this new
    tunnel is going to be built deeper, so that it can connect with such a
    deep-tunnelled line under southern Park Ave.?
    
    And (as has been pointed out), GCT (the T means "Terminal", remember?)
    is built so that trains only enter and leave to the north. The newly
    refurbished concourses (upper and lower levels) block any direct
    extension of service southward. I guess the idea is not to connect
    with GCT itself, but rather with the Park Ave. tunnels to the north of
    it, allowing some trains to pass UNDER Grand Central, then through the
    deep tunnel discussed above to connect with the new 31st St. tunnel to
    Penn Station.
    
    Some of the other things mentioned don't seem very clear either: NJT
    trains already lay up in Sunnyside, there would be nothing new in
    that.
    
    Is there a map that accompannies the story?
    
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NEXT>7658
PREVIOUS>7643
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Theft of Services
DATE>Jan 5 22:20:23 1998
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Posted by Adam on December 31, 1997 at 13:41:25:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Theft of Services posted by Fernando Perez on
    December 29, 1997 at 03:24:48:
    
    If the cops arrest you, does that mean jail time or just a fine? I
    mean, what's the point in arresting you if you can just get a fine?
    
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NEXT>7656
PREVIOUS>7650
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
DATE>Jan 5 22:20:28 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 31, 1997 at 14:06:35:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by
    subway-buff on December 31, 1997 at 13:11:02:
    
    
    The East River tunnel, between Penn Station and Sunnyside, doesn't go
    anywhere near Grand Central. There are plans floating around to link
    the LIRR mainline (which has access to Sunnyside) to Grand Central via
    the currently unused lower level of the 63rd Street tunnel.
    I don't believe that Amtrak trains on the New Haven line have ever
    used Grand Central. Diesel-powered trains could get there easily
    enough, but Grand Central does not have overhead pantograph power such
    as Amtrak's electric locomotives use.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7649
POSTER>Tony DeSantis 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway (Lower Level @ Pattison Ave.)
DATE>Jan 5 22:20:31 1998
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Posted by Tony DeSantis on December 31, 1997 at 14:43:03:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway (Lower Level @ Pattison
    Ave.) posted by Michael S. Buglak on December 31, 1997 at 13:18:09:
    
    Yes, it is a bi-level station.
    
    The upper level is used all the time.
    
    The lower level is used only for stadium events.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!
DATE>Jan 5 22:20:35 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 31, 1997 at 15:17:51:

   Thanks to all my SubTalk friends for a great year. I learned a lot
    with you all, had some fun, and hopefully was able to contribute
    something in the process. Peace be with all of you. :-)
    
    May much success, health, and happiness come to all of you. A special
    thanks to David P. and all his associate webmeisters for keeping this
    venture going.
    
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NEXT>7663
PREVIOUS>7628
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!!
DATE>Jan 5 22:20:41 1998
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on December 31, 1997 at 15:23:21:

   In Reply to: [7]I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!! posted by Nick
    on December 31, 1997 at 00:44:13:
    
    Still waiting for my ride on the A or the B...
    110B don't ride on the D/Q much and I don't ride on the 8th Ave but my
    brother who woulnd't care if it were R110 or R1 hit it a few times on
    the C.
    
    
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NEXT>7666
PREVIOUS>7652
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
DATE>Jan 5 22:20:44 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on December 31, 1997 at 15:23:40:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Peter
    Rosa on December 31, 1997 at 14:06:35:
    
    Way back, about 15 years ago, I remember seeing in the old "Broadway
    Limited" railroadiana store, when it was located on West 33d Street,
    one of those canvas train announcement signs that would hang adjacent
    to the doors for the specific tracks. It showed a run going from GCT
    to Boston. What equip. was used, who knows, but prob. an FL9 or
    something. So no, Amtrak New Haven trains never went into GCT, but New
    Haven New Haven trains did.
    
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NEXT>7673
PREVIOUS>7641
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Best & Worst Lines/F Train Blues
DATE>Jan 5 22:20:49 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 31, 1997 at 16:47:52:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Best & Worst Lines/F Train Blues posted by Carl M.
    Rabbin on December 31, 1997 at 09:44:23:
    
    Sorry, I should have been clearer. I sent the messages to the General
    Superintendents of the respective lines.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7651
POSTER>Steve 
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SUBJECT>Re: Theft of Services
DATE>Jan 5 22:20:53 1998
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Posted by Steve on December 31, 1997 at 16:50:33:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Theft of Services posted by Adam on December 31,
    1997 at 13:41:25:
    
    If the fare is $1.50 and the fine is $50.00 or you have to work for me
    for 8 hours,it won't be too many times before you realize that paying
    the fare is a smarter choice.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7597
POSTER>Alex LaBianca 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-62 question
DATE>Jan 5 22:20:56 1998
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Posted by Alex LaBianca on December 31, 1997 at 16:54:38:

   In Reply to: [8]R-62 question posted by Timothy Speer on December 30,
    1997 at 14:33:40:
    
    Theoretically, the full-width cab R-62s are only supposed to be
    running on the 4. All of the R-62s are equipped with a collapsible cab
    section which can fold out to make a full width cab.
    
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NEXT>7713
PREVIOUS>7626
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Dual Street Named Stations (was: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names
DATE>Jan 5 22:20:59 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Dual Street Named Stations (was: Another Flushing Line
    Question-St.Names (dual names)) posted by Mark S Feinman on December
    30, 1997 at 23:02:47:
    
    On the subject of stations named after streets that don't exist, you'd
    think they'd change the name of the Cortland St. Station on the 1/9
    line. The station is underneath the World Trade Center and no one on
    Cortland Street would see the entrance. Plus there's already a
    Cortland Street Station on the N/R line, which anyone on Cortland
    Street would have to walk past to get to the l/9 line.
    
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NEXT>7687
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>commter rail line signals
DATE>Jan 5 22:21:03 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on December 31, 1997 at 18:52:40:

   I have a question on signals. NJT uses the signals showing position
    such as * * * for stop
    
    *
    *
    * for green
    
    and
    
    *
    *
    * for yellow- and that is my question.
    Sometimes the yellow (or the diagonal lights if just amber) are solid
    and sometimes it is a flashing yellow. What is the difference between
    the two?
    
    (Some signals use Red, yellow and green, and some just amber)
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Turnstiles( was Re: Oops!)
DATE>Jan 5 22:21:12 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on December 31, 1997 at 18:59:00:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Oops! posted by Andrew Huie on December 31, 1997
    at 00:04:22:
    
    The base of the turnstiles was metal, but the actual part of the
    turnstil that prevented access- the arms were wood. If you will visit
    the museum you'll find these turnstiles as well as the original token
    Iron Maidens. These turnstiles differ from later models in that they
    had four arms mounted parallel to the floor and the later perry models
    with the metall arms were three arms perpedicular to the floor 120
    degrees apart.
    
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NEXT>7672
PREVIOUS>7655
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!!
DATE>Jan 5 22:21:16 1998
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Posted by Nick on December 31, 1997 at 19:05:39:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!! posted by
    Lou from Brooklyn on December 31, 1997 at 15:23:21:
    
    The R110B runs on the A/C lines only (unless thats been changed) not
    the D and Q. The A only runs on the #2 to my knowledge. I got it at
    9:15 PM on the downtown side...I wonder if it runs like this every
    weekday.-Nick
    
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NEXT>7674
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Happy New Year - Free Rides
DATE>Jan 5 22:21:19 1998
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Posted by Joe M on December 31, 1997 at 19:35:30:

   Milwaukee is running free bus service sponsored by Miller and I think
    the CTA has $.01 fares tonight
    
    Anyone else doing free or reduced fares tonight?
    
    Happy New Year to all. Hope you have a great year!!!
    
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POSTER>jm 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: caps lock off - Shh (oops here comes the TRAINNN)
DATE>Jan 5 22:21:22 1998
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Posted by jm on December 31, 1997 at 19:43:06:

   In Reply to: [7]CAPS LOCK ON - Stop SHOUTING posted by Dan Lawrence on
    December 30, 1997 at 17:56:19:
    
    
    My wife is an audiologist and can help the hard of hearing but it's
    probably caused by too many hours in the subway anyway.
    
    Happy hollidays
    
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NEXT>7676
PREVIOUS>7656
POSTER>Mike K 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
DATE>Jan 5 22:21:25 1998
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Posted by Mike K on December 31, 1997 at 19:46:48:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Charles
    Fiori on December 31, 1997 at 15:23:40:
    
    Actually, didn't Amtrak stop running trains to Grand Central just a
    few years back? (I believe it was either 1993 or 1994.)
    
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NEXT>7670
PREVIOUS>7638
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
DATE>Jan 5 22:21:27 1998
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Posted by Joe M on December 31, 1997 at 19:49:00:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco posted by Todd
    Glickman on December 31, 1997 at 07:36:19:
    
    
    When I was in San Fran. in 96 the University campus station was POP
    system then. There were no controls on the station and no fare
    collection
    
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NEXT>7675
PREVIOUS>7648
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: What service changes are we expected to see after the 63rd St-Queens
DATE>Jan 5 22:21:30 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: What service changes are we expected to see after
    the 63rd St-Queens Blvd Connection is completed. posted by subway-buff
    on December 31, 1997 at 13:13:45:
    
    Where can the NYC Suwbay Track Map Book be found?
    
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NEXT>7693
PREVIOUS>7644
POSTER>Mike K 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway
DATE>Jan 5 22:21:32 1998
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Posted by Mike K on December 31, 1997 at 19:52:48:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by
    Carl M. Rabbin on December 31, 1997 at 10:07:44:
    
    Carl--
    
    Your link to the map failed, unfortunately.
    
    Michael
    
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NEXT>7671
PREVIOUS>7667
POSTER>Zack 
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SUBJECT>Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
DATE>Jan 5 22:21:34 1998
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Posted by Zack on December 31, 1997 at 19:57:04:

   In Reply to: [8]Changes on MUNI in San Francisco posted by Todd
    Glickman on December 30, 1997 at 12:40:16:
    
    Portland Oregon's MAX runs like this and so does Vancouver B.C's Sky
    train one does wonder how many people ride without a "proof of paymet"
    
    
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NEXT>7685
PREVIOUS>7670
POSTER>Mike K 
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SUBJECT>Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
DATE>Jan 5 22:21:39 1998
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Posted by Mike K on December 31, 1997 at 19:58:17:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco posted by Todd
    Glickman on December 31, 1997 at 07:36:19:
    
    Todd--
    
    As an avid 88 listener, I have to chide you... :-)
    
    You forgot the most important part of "Traffic and Weather Together"
    -- "...every 10 minutes on the eights!"
    
    BTW: How long does your favorite commute take?
    
    Keep up the good work!
    
    Mike
    
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NEXT>7683
PREVIOUS>7663
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!!
DATE>Jan 5 22:21:42 1998
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Posted by Adam on December 31, 1997 at 20:23:54:

   In Reply to: [8]I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!! posted by Nick
    on December 31, 1997 at 00:44:13:
    
    I'm sure that all of us here at SubTalk understand you! What a great
    way to end 1997! I remember a few years ago when they were previewing
    these new cars at 34th Street (they were parked on the express tracks
    of the N/R trains). I took a special trip down there to take a look
    and inspect them!
    HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY!
    
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NEXT>7688
PREVIOUS>7657
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Best & Worst Lines/F Train Blues
DATE>Jan 5 22:21:48 1998
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Posted by Adam on December 31, 1997 at 20:30:17:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Best & Worst Lines/F Train Blues posted by Steve
    on December 31, 1997 at 16:47:52:
    
    Great! Thanks for taking the time to do this, Steve. This is a great
    way to get public opinion across to the people in charge. I hope that
    a lot of the MTA employees read this board and take note of all the
    important and creative ideas that are often presented.
    
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NEXT>7711
PREVIOUS>7664
POSTER>Adam 
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SUBJECT>Re: Happy New Year - Free Rides
DATE>Jan 5 22:21:54 1998
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Posted by Adam on December 31, 1997 at 20:35:28:

   In Reply to: [8]Happy New Year - Free Rides posted by Joe M on
    December 31, 1997 at 19:35:30:
    
    Well, they used to give free rides on New Years on the subway until
    recently. Does anybody know when this ended? I think that the LIRR
    gives free rides on New Years, though. The only thing different that
    the subway is doing is running the S shuttle in Times Square all night
    instead of ending it at 12 AM. Having gone to Times Square last year,
    I must say that the subway ride back home was the most enjoyable part
    of the evening! One drunk guy had the entire subway car hysterical
    laughing!
    HAVE A SAFE AND HEALTHY AND HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY!!!!
    
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POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: What service changes are we expected to see after the 63rd St-Queens
DATE>Jan 5 22:21:59 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: What service changes are we expected to see after
    the 63rd St-Queens Blvd Connection is completed. posted by Mike K on
    December 31, 1997 at 19:49:45:
    
    send e-mail to :
    
    pid@istar.ca or
    brakeman@nycsubway.org
    
    OR: Go to the top of subtalk and click on NYC subway resources
    select transit maps, selexct track maps and you will see the intro
    page about the book the author and the web edition of the book which
    while in color you still need and want the book
    
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NEXT>7677
PREVIOUS>7666
POSTER>~airplane 
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SUBJECT>Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
DATE>Jan 5 22:22:05 1998
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Posted by ~airplane on December 31, 1997 at 21:33:49:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Mike K
    on December 31, 1997 at 19:46:48:
    
    It was actually a few years earlier than that. I have an old timetable
    from the Fall of 1991 announcing "the end of New York cross-town
    transfers!" Once Amtrak decided to start using the old ROW down the
    West Side that connects with the Hudson Line, there were no longer any
    trains that could not reach Penn Station, and no longer was there a
    reason to run trains to Grand Central.
    
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NEXT>7681
PREVIOUS>7676
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
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SUBJECT>Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
DATE>Jan 5 22:22:10 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on December 31, 1997 at 23:48:26:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by
    ~airplane on December 31, 1997 at 21:33:49:
    
    During the big blizzard in early 1996, I saw an Amtrak train from
    Toronto that had been rerouted to Grand Central - apparently, the west
    side tracks were impassable at that time.
    
    
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NEXT>7680
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>New Year's Wishes
DATE>Jan 12 10:58:41 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 01, 1998 at 00:00:28:

   Happy New Year to all Subtalkers! Here's wishing that we see, in 1998,
    the resumption of full Manhattan Bridge service and the start of
    construction on the Second Avenue subway, and the ... hey, wait a
    minute, I must've been thinking of 2098!!!
    Anyway, here's to a terrific 1998!
    
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POSTER>Philip E. Dominguez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Last years reflections from a Subway buff and a glance at the future
DATE>Jan 12 10:58:46 1998
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Posted by Philip E. Dominguez on January 01, 1998 at 01:02:07:

   In Reply to: [7]New Year's Wishes posted by Peter Rosa on January 01,
    1998 at 00:00:28:
    
    
    Last year was an interesting year for the New York Subway, some
    highlights are:
    - July 4th was the first day that transit riders were able to get a
    free transfer from train to bus using MetroCard Gold.
    - In June Metrocard gold became usable at all train stations.
    - In the fall there was a major subway accident in queens on the IND
    local tracks near Stienway Street.
    - R-40's begin running on the Brighton Exp.(Q) and R-68a's begin
    running on the West End Line(B)
    - OPTO Begins (correct me if I am wrong)
    - Unlimited fare plan(monthly pass, weekly pass, and daily
    pass)annonced
    - and much more...
    
    And now a Quick Look at the future( as I predict)...
    
    The R-26's become the first group of redbirds to be retired, The (F)
    Line express service is started again, The G train is extended to
    church ave, A viaduct(el) over second or third ave is seriously
    considered and planning is started on the "new" el from Ditmars Blvd
    to Laguardia Airport.
    Also the MTA re-starts Rush-hour (C) service to Rockaway park
    
    
    
    
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POSTER>Bootsy 
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SUBJECT>Re: New Year's Wishes
DATE>Jan 12 10:58:54 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on January 01, 1998 at 02:12:23:

   In Reply to: [7]New Year's Wishes posted by Peter Rosa on January 01,
    1998 at 00:00:28:
    
    Always wish for the best, my man! Always wish for the best!
    
    And who knows? Maybe our wishes really will come true!
    
    Now - the Bridge and Second Avenue -- we may have to wish a little
    harder on those.
    
    
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NEXT>7684
PREVIOUS>7677
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
DATE>Jan 12 10:58:57 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on January 01, 1998 at 02:14:41:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by
    subway-buff on December 31, 1997 at 13:11:02:
    
    The trains that went to Grand Central were from the Empire corridor;
    i.e., they followed the Hudson line.
    
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POSTER>Andrew Huie 
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SUBJECT>Re: Oops!
DATE>Jan 12 10:58:59 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on January 01, 1998 at 02:22:52:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Oops! posted by Timothy Speer on December 31, 1997
    at 09:48:22:
    
    I remember the ones at East Broadway were red with a dark green base.
    
    
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NEXT>7705
PREVIOUS>7672
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!!
DATE>Jan 12 10:59:01 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on January 01, 1998 at 02:24:45:

   In Reply to: [7]I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!! posted by Nick
    on December 31, 1997 at 00:44:13:
    
    Jeez, I wish I got that kind of reaction from Nicole (that's her real
    name!) whenever she sees me!
    
    I guess to her I'm just a tired old R-33 :'-(
    
    Oh, if only I were a brand new R-110 in her eyes . . . . . . . . . . .
    
    
    What the hell am I talking about? ? ? I think I had a little too much
    Asti Cinzano.
    
    
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NEXT>7728
PREVIOUS>7681
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
DATE>Jan 12 10:59:03 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on January 01, 1998 at 02:46:22:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Peter
    Rosa on December 31, 1997 at 23:48:26:
    
    The Empire trains going to upstate New York used to terminate and
    originate at Grand Central. Back in 1988, I rode a train out of GCT to
    Montreal (the Adirondack).
    Uhhhhh! What a long ride !
    
    And customs !
    
    It had to be on MY train that they couldn't match a checked bag with a
    passenger!!
    
    
    
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NEXT>7686
PREVIOUS>7671
POSTER>Bootsy 
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SUBJECT>Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
DATE>Jan 12 10:59:05 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on January 01, 1998 at 02:49:11:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco posted by Mike K
    on December 31, 1997 at 19:58:17:
    
    Wait a minute! Hold on!
    
    Are you Mike Kennedy?? The traffic dude?
    
    
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NEXT>7703
PREVIOUS>7685
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
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SUBJECT>Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
DATE>Jan 12 10:59:07 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on January 01, 1998 at 05:03:21:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco posted by Mike K
    on December 31, 1997 at 19:58:17:
    
    My "favorite commute" from my house in suburban Boston to the WCBS
    studios in midtown Manhattan can take as little as three hours if I
    hit things right.... and all of the buses/subways come right on time.
    That, of course, occurs only when I'm not in a hurry! In a hurry? Wait
    forever and get stuck in traffic (Q-33) and 'behind a diabled train'
    (E or F). Usually the fastest part of the trip is the USAirways
    Shuttle from BOS-LGA, which is 40 minutes in the air.
    
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POSTER>Steve 
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SUBJECT>Re: commter rail line signals
DATE>Jan 12 10:59:10 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 01, 1998 at 12:51:35:

   In Reply to: [8]commter rail line signals posted by subway-buff on
    December 31, 1997 at 18:52:40:
    
    A train signal has 3 components. The first is the aspect - what the
    signal shows such as the diagnal line. The second is the name - what
    it's called. Finally, the indication - the information that is
    conveyed. The aspect (diagonal lights) varies depending on which way
    the diagonal runs. From right to left, is called APPROACH and from
    left to right is called CAUTION.
    A flashing aspect is referred to as Absolute such as ABSOLUTE
    APPROACH. Many of the LIRR engineers refer to it as ADVANCED APPROACH.
    APPROACH means enter the block prepared to stop at the next signal. My
    understanding is that ADVANCED APPROACH is somewhat less restrictive.
    
    
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POSTER>Steve 
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SUBJECT>Re: Best & Worst Lines/F Train Blues
DATE>Jan 12 10:59:12 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 01, 1998 at 12:55:31:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Best & Worst Lines/F Train Blues posted by Adam on
    December 31, 1997 at 20:30:17:
    
    I know that the NEW General Superintendent of Jamaica Shop was very
    interested in the comments, especially about the FILTHY F Trains. I am
    always interested in comments about the D line - good and bad.
    
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NEXT>7691
PREVIOUS>7645
POSTER>Christopher Rivera 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
DATE>Jan 12 10:59:15 1998
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Posted by Christopher Rivera on January 01, 1998 at 13:14:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by
    Janet on December 26, 1997 at 16:04:27:
    
    For 1 thing there is excactly 468 station in New York City. For a
    little more help to connect all the stations there is 714 miles of
    track theat in enough track to get form here to Richmond VA.
    
    
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NEXT>7692
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Christopher Rivera 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
DATE>Jan 12 10:59:20 1998
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Posted by Christopher Rivera on January 01, 1998 at 13:45:48:

   I have done alot research on the Manhattan Bridge. When it was Built
    it did not have the lower level for the Trains. But when the people
    demanded to expand the New york City Subway System they decided to add
    the Tracks and make a new lower level for the Trains but the people
    who made the bridge were worried that the Bridge might not hold both
    the cars and the 4 ton trains. But they did it. And now the bridge
    might colapes under all the pressure. It is rusting Quickly. Now the
    Manhattan Bridge is a Catatrophey wating to happen. If you want more
    go near the bottom of the page nad look for something called the
    Manhattan Btridge Catastophey. I will also like help from people who
    are model makers to see if the Manhattan Bridge can be repaired or
    will have to be destroyed. Also I hope that people who wrote the
    Manhattan Bridge Catastrophey can help me with more information so
    that we can save millions of lives and let the DOT and MTA now how
    dangerous it is and scary it is to go acrose that bridge. So help me.
    Oh I am only 12 years old. So thank you for your time.
    
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NEXT>7704
PREVIOUS>7689
POSTER>Christopher Rivera 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
DATE>Jan 12 10:59:23 1998
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Posted by Christopher Rivera on January 01, 1998 at 13:49:00:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by
    Janet on December 26, 1997 at 16:04:27:
    
    For 1 thing there is excactly 468 station in New York City. For a
    little more help to connect all the stations there is 714 miles of
    track theat in enough track to get form here to Richmond VA.
    
    
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NEXT>7701
PREVIOUS>7690
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
DATE>Jan 12 10:59:27 1998
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Posted by Nick on January 01, 1998 at 14:17:33:

   In Reply to: [8]Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!! posted by
    Christopher Rivera on January 01, 1998 at 13:45:48:
    
    Well if thats the case (i'm not familaiar w/ the bridge) I hope Rudy
    and the MTA not only know about it, but do something about it!!-Nick
    
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NEXT>7717
PREVIOUS>7669
POSTER>Andrew Byler 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway
DATE>Jan 12 10:59:30 1998
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Posted by Andrew Byler on January 01, 1998 at 17:19:05:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by
    Carl M. Rabbin on December 31, 1997 at 10:07:44:
    
    Perhaps it would help understanding to describe the Broad St. Subway
    physical plant.
    
    The line is the only four track express outside of New York City in
    the United States.
    
    The stations are:
    
    Fern Rock - Olney - Logan - Wyoming - Hunting Park - Erie - Allegheny
    - North Philadelphia - Susquehanna-Dauphin - Columbia - Girard -
    Fairmount - (Chinatown - 8th & Market on the Ridge Spur) - Spring
    Garden - Race-Vine - City Hall - Walnut-Locust - Lombard-South -
    Ellsworth-Federal - Tasker-Morris - Snyder - Oregon - Pattison
    
    The line is four tracks from the yard mouth at Fern Rock to
    Walnut-Locust, and the stations Olney, Erie, North Philadelphia,
    Girard, Spring Garden, Race-Vine, City Hall, Walnut-Locust are center
    platform express stops. South of Walnut-Locust, only the east half of
    the street was excavated, and all stops are a single center platform.
    The Ridge Spur is single track and was never intended to be otherwise.
    
    Provisions for turnbacks besides the three terminals are provided at
    Olney, Erie, and Walnut-Locust. The turnback pocket tracks at Olney
    and Walnut-Locust are directly accesible from the express tracks,
    while that at Erie is from the local tracks. Crossovers at Girard,
    Lombard-South, and Snyder also provide for turnback capability. The
    three turnback pocket tracks were all built with expansion of the
    system in mind. From north of Olney, the roadbed is lain for a couple
    of blocks for the extension of the four track line. At Erie, the four
    track pocket yard was intended to allow the local tracks to be
    diverted to the median of the Roosevelt Blvd. for extension
    northeastwards, while the two side tracks of the yard would continue
    north and rejoin the local track roadbeds. South of Walnut-Locust, it
    was once intended to extend the line south as four tracks to Snyder,
    where one branch would split and head southwestwards along Passyunk
    Ave. The Ridge Spur, of course, still is joined to the Patco line, and
    formerly was inteded to follow Locust St. into West Philly and then
    southwestwards along Woodland Ave.
    
    I hope this gives a clearer picture of the Broad St. Subway's physical
    layout.
    
    Andy Byler
    
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NEXT>7698
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POSTER>Pilot 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Writing in New York, nowadays !
DATE>Jan 12 10:59:33 1998
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Posted by Pilot on January 01, 1998 at 18:41:39:

   Nice day guys,
    I'm a german study (and of course a writer), from the Berufs-Ober-
    School in Nürnberg, writing an essay about "the reaction of society
    to present-time graffiti in new york ". In this context
    i have some questions (they relate to New York and to the
    period of time between 1996 and now):
    
    1. What antigraffiti measures have begun in the last two years?
    2. Are there also positive reactions to graffiti (e.g.: through other
    "conventional" artists)?
    3. What kind of socio-economic background does today's writer have?
    4. How has society(Authorities,Press,Art-scene and Teenagers) been
    reacting to graffiti in the last two years?
    
    It would be cool if someone could answer me these questions or give me
    an hint where i can find information about this subjekt. Thanks a lot.
    (Thanks to susan for helping)
    
    Pilot
    
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NEXT>7696
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POSTER>Joshua Caesar 
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SUBJECT>Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question.
DATE>Jan 12 10:59:37 1998
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Posted by Joshua Caesar on January 01, 1998 at 20:10:14:

   About two or three weeks ago, I got stopped by a police officer when I
    entered the subway with my student MetroCard. He looked at me and
    asked me if I was a student (I am a HS senior with a goatee, he must
    of thought I was older than I am) I answered yes, and he asked me what
    school, to which I responded Garden. Since I go to a small private
    school which not too many people have heard of, the officer looked
    unconvinced and I was only let to walk away since I produced my school
    ID for him.
    
    The officer had seen a light in the turnstile light up when I used my
    student MC, and for that reason I have not used my pass for free rides
    over this vacation, even though I have seen others use them and get
    away with it. On the bus home today, another student used his card,
    and the farebox allowed him on the bus. But the driver stopped him and
    told him he could not use his card due to the holiday. The driver then
    said something which disturbed me. He said "you are going to lose that
    pass. There is a code on that card and they are going to track it and
    take it away from you since you use it when you are not supposed to."
    
    The bus operators comment did not sit well with me for a few reasons.
    During a holiday break, why doesnt the TA turn the cards "off",
    telling the turnstiles and fareboxes not to accept them? Also, there
    are no rules or regulations printed on the student MetroCard, like
    there used to be on a student flash pass. Does anyone have a copy of
    the Student MetroCard pamphlet that all the students received with
    their cards? Does it say anything about holiday usage? The third thing
    that really gets me is the part the bus driver said about the cards
    being tracked? Does the TA really do this? Does the TA even know whos
    card is what code? I mean, my schools secretary gave me my MetroCard,
    and told me to write my name on it. I am not sure she even took the
    number down, so if my school doesnt know which MetroCard is mine, how
    would the TA know? I wonder if there will be students who dont receive
    passes for the next semester because the TA determined that they used
    their student pass during the holiday break. The whole possibility of
    the TA tracking my movements through my student MetroCard really
    upsets me, since, theoretically, the same tracking could be done with
    a regular MetroCard, but the TA would have no way of knowing the
    identity of the cards user, but the TA could say, look, Josh Caesar
    used his student card, here, here, and here.
    
    Anyway, sorry about the post turning out so long, HAPPY NEW YEAR to
    all.
    
    Josh Caesar
    studlyjc@aol.com
    
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NEXT>7697
PREVIOUS>7695
POSTER>David L. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question.
DATE>Jan 12 10:59:43 1998
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Posted by David L. on January 01, 1998 at 20:56:27:

   In Reply to: [7]Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question.
    posted by Joshua Caesar on January 01, 1998 at 20:10:14:
    
    A fellow high school student here. One of my theories of the reasons
    why the MTA doe not turn the Student Metrocards off during holidays is
    perhaps other private schools may not celebrate such holdidays and
    have school remain in session. A second theory- certain schools like
    mine have members of sports teams and relating teams (i.e. football,
    cheerleading team) come in to school for practice during the vacation.
    Can anyone confirm this?
    I have a question as well, what is the penalty for being caught using
    the Student Metrocard when you are not suppose to?
    
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NEXT>7700
PREVIOUS>7696
POSTER>Old Goat 
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SUBJECT>Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question.
DATE>Jan 12 10:59:47 1998
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Posted by Old Goat on January 01, 1998 at 20:57:20:

   In Reply to: [8]Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question.
    posted by Joshua Caesar on January 01, 1998 at 20:10:14:
    
    No, the Transit Authority doesn't know which students have the card:
    only the school authorities know who has it, assuming they're paying
    attention, as you pointed out. However, it is possible that the T.A.
    could turn off a Metrocard that they thought was "being abused", but
    as you point out, if they really thought that use on New Years Day was
    abuse, they would have told their computers not to let you pass in the
    first place. Back when I went to school and had a flash pass, I got
    turned away a few times after hours or midday when I was cutting class
    and joyriding the buses to pass the time...
    
    I presume you wear the goatee to look older, well, guess what, it
    works! You should have thanked the cop for the compliment, just like
    the 40 year old woman thanks the bartender when she is asked to show
    ID...
    
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NEXT>7699
PREVIOUS>7694
POSTER>Joe-M 
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SUBJECT>Re: Writing in New York, nowadays !
DATE>Jan 12 10:59:50 1998
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Posted by Joe-M on January 01, 1998 at 21:52:11:

   In Reply to: [7]Writing in New York, nowadays ! posted by Pilot on
    January 01, 1998 at 18:41:39:
    
    You missed the real questions.
    
    1. How much does it cost to clean it up?
    
    2. How much of it is gang related and encourages gang actitivty?
    
    3. Why does one feel the need to deface someone elses property? You
    would probably pretty mad if someone tagged your BMW or SAAB.
    
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NEXT>7708
PREVIOUS>7698
POSTER>Joe-M 
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SUBJECT>Re: Writing in New York, nowadays !
DATE>Jan 12 10:59:54 1998
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Posted by Joe-M on January 01, 1998 at 21:54:16:

   In Reply to: [7]Writing in New York, nowadays ! posted by Pilot on
    January 01, 1998 at 18:41:39:
    
    You missed the real questions.
    
    1. How much does it cost to clean it up?
    
    2. How much of it is gang related and encourages gang actitivty?
    
    3. Why does one feel the need to deface someone elses property? You
    would probably pretty mad if someone tagged your BMW or SAAB.
    
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NEXT>7721
PREVIOUS>7697
POSTER>Steve 
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SUBJECT>Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question.
DATE>Jan 12 10:59:56 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 01, 1998 at 23:21:45:

   In Reply to: [8]Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question.
    posted by Joshua Caesar on January 01, 1998 at 20:10:14:
    
    2 thoughts about your posting.
    I used a student transit pass to go to and from High School some 30
    years ago. We were only supposed to use it between our home station
    and the school station. Of course we did use it for other school
    activities as well. Once in a while we were checked and were told that
    our passes were not valid at that station because it was not out home
    station or the school station. I suppose, with the MetroCard computer,
    it would be possible to limit use to the two stations if the TA saw
    fit to do so. Why don't you ask the teacher at your school, who is
    responsible for the passes, what the guide lines are for use of the
    pass.
    
    As for the system itself, let me relate a story I heard just the other
    day. A Car Inspector was recently fired for mis-use of his Transit
    Pass. It seems his pass was showing up in the MetroCard computer as
    being used during the time he was allegedly on duty. They actually
    developed a pattern of use and intercepted the Car Inspector's
    girlfriend entering the system. He had given her his pass to use
    during the day. If they can do it to employees, they can do it to you
    too.
    
    Read "1984" - Big brother is watching !!!!!!!
    
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NEXT>7707
PREVIOUS>7692
POSTER>Mike Rothenberg 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
DATE>Jan 12 10:59:58 1998
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Posted by Mike Rothenberg on January 01, 1998 at 23:35:54:

   In Reply to: [8]Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!! posted by
    Christopher Rivera on January 01, 1998 at 13:45:48:
    
    Christopher, you are a smart boy! It's good that you were able to do
    research and learn about the bridge problems. I and other people
    wrote about it in the last few weeks. (You even might find what we
    wrote further down in the older postings.) Maybe you should write
    letters to the mayor and the head of the MTA. Two of the four tracks
    have been out of service for at least ten years, I think. From what
    I read here, the highest priorities of the MTA are two projects:
    (1) connect the Long Island Railroad to Grand Central Terminal, using
    the 63rd St. tunnel that was designed for this, and (2) building the
    2nd Ave. subway. Solving Manhattan Bridge problems wasn't included.
    
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NEXT>
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POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>SEPTA Map Link (was: Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway)
DATE>Jan 12 11:00:00 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 02, 1998 at 00:01:05:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by
    Carl M. Rabbin on December 31, 1997 at 10:07:44:
    
    [9]Here's the link to the SEPTA map.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7754
PREVIOUS>7686
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
DATE>Jan 12 11:00:16 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 02, 1998 at 00:04:42:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco posted by Todd
    Glickman on December 31, 1997 at 07:36:19:
    
    > "It's going to be a nice day to ride a Slant 40 over the Manhattan
    Bridge
    > to get that great view of the city." Now THAT's Transit and Weather
    > Together!
    
    Cool! I guess I better listen to you more carefully from now on! :)
    
    Happy New Year to you, too.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7691
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
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SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations on New York Subway
DATE>Jan 12 11:00:19 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 02, 1998 at 00:16:23:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Number of stations on New York Subway posted by
    Hank Eisenstein on December 31, 1997 at 04:10:07:
    
    Yep, you're right - 19 it is.
    
    (The old "hunt & peck missing a key" trick ....)
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7706
PREVIOUS>7683
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!!
DATE>Jan 12 11:00:21 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 02, 1998 at 00:46:22:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!! posted by
    Bootsy on January 01, 1998 at 02:24:45:
    
    Hey Bootsy this is one of the funniest posts I have read in a while!
    
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NEXT>7715
PREVIOUS>7705
POSTER>Bootsy 
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SUBJECT>Re: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!!
DATE>Jan 12 11:00:22 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on January 02, 1998 at 01:48:43:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!! posted by
    Adam on January 02, 1998 at 00:46:22:
    
    Glad you liked it!
    But if Nicole found out . . . . oh boy!
    We may have the Malbone Street wreck all over again,
    figuratively-speaking!
    
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NEXT>7709
PREVIOUS>7701
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
DATE>Jan 12 11:00:25 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 02, 1998 at 08:01:53:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!! posted by Nick
    on January 01, 1998 at 14:17:33:
    
    There is an old saying "hope springs eternal." I think that NYCT, MTA,
    etc. keep thinking that the bridge will reopen in spite of the
    doomsayers and that everything is going to be okay.
    My thoughts: right now there is a movie Titanic. The captain yhought
    his ship was unsinkable and we know what happened.
    
    I am afraid that nothing will be done until:
    1- Bridge is officially closed to rail and/or vehicles
    
    2- Bridge collapses or partially collapses which will close the rest
    of the bridge.
    
    I think they will not do anything until "forced"
    
    (I hope I am wrong and I hope I am not on the bridge when it goes!!-
    fully or partially[in which case people will be killed fleeing the
    bridge].)
    
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NEXT>7749
PREVIOUS>7699
POSTER>True Train Lover 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Writing in New York, nowadays !
DATE>Jan 12 11:00:28 1998
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Posted by True Train Lover on January 02, 1998 at 10:00:23:

   In Reply to: [7]Writing in New York, nowadays ! posted by Pilot on
    January 01, 1998 at 18:41:39:
    
    There is much less grafitti visible than there used to be, because the
    elected mayor vowed to listen to the majority and institute campaigns
    to get rid of it immediately. Very few people have ever liked it.
    There is very little visible nowadays. Your report is 5 years too
    late.
    
    Not to be cruel but....
    Perhaps you would prefer to see weird stuff written all over the
    U-Bahn in Nurnberg, on the walls of the trains both inside and
    outside, people's names written on the seats, on the station steps and
    walls, etc. and on the sides of historic row houses all over town. You
    might not think it so artistic.
    
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NEXT>7741
PREVIOUS>7707
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
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SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
DATE>Jan 12 11:00:30 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 02, 1998 at 10:10:20:

   In Reply to: [7]Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!! posted by
    Christopher Rivera on January 01, 1998 at 13:45:48:
    
    You seem to understand really that the Manhattan Bridge is a vital
    link between two crowded boroughs. It about 1/7 the total road and and
    1/10 the total track system between the Island of Long and the Island
    of Manhattan, which really is a substantial proportion. And already
    half the tracks on it are completely unused.
    
    However, not to be picky, but if the bridge collapsed, at most only
    7000 people would be killed, 3000 on a northbound train, 3000 on a
    southbound train, and maybe 800 cars of people. Pretty morbid, even if
    it isn't millions of people? Even if one car went over the edge and
    killed 2 people, or one train dangled over the side, scaring the heck
    out of a few hundred people, it would be awful. But it is not
    millions.
    
    
    
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NEXT>7877
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
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SUBJECT>Re: Rockaway Park Service
DATE>Jan 12 11:00:32 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 02, 1998 at 10:22:35:

   In Reply to: [7]Last years reflections from a Subway buff and a glance
    at the future posted by Philip E. Dominguez on January 01, 1998 at
    01:02:07:
    
    Why bother with rush hour C service to Rockaway Park? There are
    already 5 A trains that go to Rockaway Park in rush hour. Replacing
    them with C trains would just make every express rider (most people)
    just switch to the C train at Broad Channel anyway? They would
    probably again only have 5 C trains to Rockaway Park, the rest of the
    C trains would only go to Euclid, and the S would be the other 7 or
    eight rush hour trains, just like now.
    
    What I think is really unfair is that the Lefferts Blvd. branch gets
    15 minute service during non-rush hours. It seems that they should get
    a shuttle to take up the slack. If I were running things, half the A
    trains would still go to Far Rockaway, half to Lefferts Blvd. but a
    shuttle would alternate with regular A trains between Lefferts Blvd.
    and Euclid Avenue to meet the Far Rockaway A train and give better
    service to Lefferts Blvd. Then again why give such bad service to the
    Rockaways? I understand why there is a Rockaway Park shuttle -- to
    have only one train go on the long section through Broad Channel and
    save train capacity -- but why have it be so infrequent? It doesn't
    seem right to me.
    
    Perhaps someday all C trains will go to Lefferts Blvd. and all A
    trains to the Rockaways. Unlikely, I suppose...
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7674
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
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SUBJECT>Re: Happy New Year - Free Rides
DATE>Jan 12 11:00:34 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 02, 1998 at 10:24:16:

   In Reply to: [7]Happy New Year - Free Rides posted by Joe M on
    December 31, 1997 at 19:35:30:
    
    Washington's Metro was free from Midnight until 2:00 AM on New Year's
    Eve.
    
    
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NEXT>7714
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POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
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SUBJECT>Broad Street and other 4 track lines
DATE>Jan 12 11:00:36 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 02, 1998 at 10:38:58:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by
    Andrew Byler on January 01, 1998 at 17:19:05:
    
    Very nice description, extremely detailed and really explains why
    locals end at Erie so easily and why they can't at Walnut-Locust. I
    appreciate someone articulating better what I was originally thinking.
    It's also really interesting that only one side of Broad Street was
    torn up in South Philadelphia. I guess that was smart thinking when
    they built it.
    
    One tiny detail about 4-track lines in the US:
    
    In Chicago the El section between Belmont and Fullerton (actually
    Armitage) is a four-track express line. But the local is the
    Ravenswood (Brown), and the express is the Howard-Dan Ryan (Red) line.
    
    In London they have the same 4-track configuration between Baker St.
    and Wembley Park: the express is the Metropolitan Line, the local the
    Jubilee Line.
    
    And of course the Subway-Surface cars between 30th and 15th in
    Philadelphia are the locals in a four-track configuration with the
    Market St. Subway, which is the express that skips 19th and 22nd
    Streets. Same track width (wide gauge), different platform height and
    electricity (3rd rail vs. overhead trolley pole). The Broad Street
    system uses standard gauge track. [This is for those who are
    unfamiliar with Philadelphia's system.]
    
    And I realize that these 3 other "express" runs are quite limited in
    scope, not like the Broad Street Subway which has express track for
    about 8 miles.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7660
POSTER>
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SUBJECT>Re: Dual Street Named Stations (was: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names
DATE>Jan 12 11:00:38 1998
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   In Reply to: [7]Re: Dual Street Named Stations (was: Another Flushing
    Line Question-St.Names (dual names)) posted by Reggie on December 31,
    1997 at 17:57:17:
    
    Don't forget that the street name is Cortlandt Street. Note it has a
    Dutch spelling, not an English spelling.
    
    Do I have too much time on my hands or What???
    
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NEXT>7727
PREVIOUS>7712
POSTER>John B. Bredin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Broad Street and other 4 track lines
DATE>Jan 12 11:00:40 1998
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Posted by John B. Bredin on January 02, 1998 at 11:18:46:

   In Reply to: [8]Broad Street and other 4 track lines posted by Carl M.
    Rabbin on January 02, 1998 at 10:38:58:
    
    As to the four-track segment of the Chicago L, it actually extends
    from just south of Armitage station all the way north to Howard
    Street, the northern city limits.
    
    You are correct that the Brown is a local train and makes all stops
    between where it merges into the main line north of Belmont and the
    downtown Loop, while the Red stops only at Belmont and Fullerton on
    that stretch of line before going underground at the portal just south
    of the Armitage station.
    
    But the Evanston (Purple) and the Red run on four tracks from Howard,
    the terminal of the Red line, all the way to the Armitage portal. The
    Purple is a rush-hour-only express that runs local through Evanston,
    then stops at Howard, then skips on the outer tracks the many
    inner-track Red Line stops between Howard and Belmont, then stops at
    the local stations of the L south of Belmont into the Loop.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7706
POSTER>carl 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!!
DATE>Jan 12 11:00:42 1998
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Posted by carl on January 02, 1998 at 11:24:10:

   In Reply to: [7]I finally got a ride on the R110-A!!!! posted by Nick
    on December 31, 1997 at 00:44:13:
    
    good for you,nick! seriously. i remember when i first rode one. it was
    back in october. i was taking the subway to times square from the twin
    towers and i got on a train that wasn't the usual r-30( as much as i
    love the r-30 you need a little change. oh well.
    
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NEXT>7737
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Christopher Rivera 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Bronx,Manhattan,Brooklyn+Long Island
DATE>Jan 12 11:00:44 1998
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Posted by Christopher Rivera on January 02, 1998 at 11:34:40:

   The D and B lines go on one of the most important lines in the city.
    From those 2 lines you get into all of the 4 broughs of the transit
    system. And connect you to the LIRR, NJ Transit, Metro North and
    Amtrak. Plus it goes under one of the most important bridges in the
    City. Now what my Question is what will happen when the Manhattan
    Bridge Collapes? I think the 63 street tunnel is going to be used for
    that situation . Now correct me if I am wrong all track are connect to
    make the system then why did the MTA terminate the D train at 34
    street and the B train at 36 Street. They just could have rerouted the
    trains on to the N and R tracks. Come on! Now if the Bridge did
    collapes they cant terminate the D train at 34 street and the B at 36
    strret. Does anyone have any other reroutes?????
    
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NEXT>7723
PREVIOUS>7693
POSTER>smitty 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway
DATE>Jan 12 11:00:46 1998
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Posted by smitty on January 02, 1998 at 11:36:44:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by
    Carl M. Rabbin on December 31, 1997 at 10:07:44:
    
    you know what i love about the sub? it's philly's only real answer to
    a new york train. i've lived in this town for 15 years and just
    started using the sub back in '96. my usual method of getting around
    town is the el. i'm glad they are finally getting some new trains on
    it. i got my last glimpse when walking towards the stop at 46th st.
    before the tunnel. but how long will the trains last before the
    windows get scratched up by kids with too much free time? i hope that
    the whole city gets to enjoy 'em before they get all screwed up. any
    way the deal with the subways, i usually get off at spring garden st.
    because i go to community college. i have only taken the train north a
    couple of times to wyoming. i think if you want a new york train
    experience without going to new york, take the sub. and is it just me
    or has the city hall station gone down lately?
    
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NEXT>7720
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>John 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>"Condos"
DATE>Jan 12 11:00:48 1998
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Posted by John on January 02, 1998 at 11:42:04:

   What do they mean when they talk about the "Condos" under Grand
    Central?
    Anyone know anything about track 100 on the east side od the station?
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Robert 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Maps
DATE>Jan 12 11:00:51 1998
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Posted by Robert on January 02, 1998 at 11:49:11:

   Anyone know where I can get a detailed layout of Grand Central
    Terminal with all levels on the internet?
    
    If so, please post it.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7718
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: "Condos"
DATE>Jan 12 11:00:53 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 02, 1998 at 11:56:32:

   In Reply to: [8]"Condos" posted by John on January 02, 1998 at
    11:42:04:
    
    If you're asking these questions based on reading the book _The Mole
    People_ by Jennifer Toth, please see this Web site:
    http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/rails/mole-people.html
    
    You'll have an entirely different perspective on the book after
    reading this!
    
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NEXT>7725
PREVIOUS>7700
POSTER>Joshua Caesar 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question.
DATE>Jan 12 11:00:56 1998
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Posted by Joshua Caesar on January 02, 1998 at 12:04:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy
    question. posted by David L. on January 01, 1998 at 20:56:27:
    
    The theory off other private school not having the day off works for
    smaller holidays, trust me, up until this year there have been allot
    of times where I have had to explain to bus drivers and token clerks
    why I was going to school. But these were all one day holidays where
    my school stayed in session so we could end the school year slightly
    earlier, what school really has classes during the Christmas break? I
    too would like too know what the penalty for misuse is.
    
    A Quick response to Steve (another of the posters on this topic): I
    will check this out with my school's secretary when I go back to
    school, although I don't think MetroCards seem to be her big concern.
    And I did read "1984", in fact I did a term paper on it, and that is
    what scares me.
    
    
    Joshua Caesar
    studlyjc@aol.com
    
    
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NEXT>7821
PREVIOUS>7647
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA
DATE>Jan 12 11:00:58 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 02, 1998 at 12:09:16:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA posted by Carl M.
    Rabbin on December 31, 1997 at 09:43:53:
    
    The Broad St signs appear to be correct. I know there are 9 spots on a
    3x3 grid on the signs which light up. These signs always amused me,
    given their small size (especially the front signs!). I had heard that
    consideration was being given to replacement with electronic dot
    signs, but have not seen this in practice. Most Broad St riders don't
    watch signs, which can cause trouble sometimes.
    
    The M-4 cars coming to the Market-Frankford line will have electronic
    dot side signs in addition to the A/B indicators. The Budd cars only
    have the A/B lighted signs on the front and sides.
    
    PATCO cars have six side signs which are back-lit. The messages are:
    Philadelphia Local
    Philadelphia Express
    Lindenwold Local
    Lindenwold Express
    Woodcrest Local
    Ferry Ave Local
    
    The front signs, which are curtains, have the same messages, including
    SPECIAL and Haddonfield Local. The Haddonfield trains stopped running
    after Woodcrest opened. Specials once ran in front of Ferry Ave trains
    and skipped Ferry Ave, Collingswood and Westmont. These were usually
    (but not always) followed by Haddonfield locals which in turn were
    followed by Lindenwold expresses. The current schedule is not as
    complicated. Ferry Ave trips have not been scheduled since about 1990.
    
    Commuter trains have the side panel sides mentioned in another
    posting. Some cars also have flip-type panels on the right side of the
    headlight opposite the number panel (which is above the engineer's
    cab) on the front. These signs are also small and very hard to read.
    
    
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NEXT>7724
PREVIOUS>7717
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:01 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 02, 1998 at 12:33:12:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by
    Mike K on December 31, 1997 at 02:02:43:
    
    As you've seen in the following postings, there are many reasons why
    the express service ends at Walnut. Another two are the level of
    ridership and the availability of cars.
    
    When express service began in the late 50's all trains between the
    then-terminals of Fern Rock and Snyder were express in the peaks and
    local in off-peak. The Ridge Spur peak trains served local stops
    between Girard and Erie and extended to Fern Rock. An Erie-Snyder
    local service also operated (trains leaving Snyder alternated between
    express (Fern Rock) and local (Erie). This pattern did not last very
    long and was changed to all peak trains Fern Rock-Snyder express and
    all Ridge trains local 8th-Erie. The problem was than Fairmount
    station, being a local stop, was not served. The solution was to
    direct patrons to the Ridge Spur Fairmount stop. This pattern
    continued until 1979 (with the south terminal moving to Pattison in
    1973).
    
    With a severe car shortage in '79 the express service was ended and
    all mainline trains operated local at all times. The Spur became a
    full-time shuttle between 8th and Girard. Later, it shut down
    completely (about '80-'81) to permit construction of the Commuter
    Tunnel. A bus substitute filled in and patrons were directed to use
    the free transfer to the Market-Frankford line at City Hall/15th to
    reach 8th as an alternate.
    
    When the Kawasaki cars began to arrive in '82-'83 the express service
    was revived as a Walnut-Olney operation, primarily with the new cars,
    supplemented by the mainline locals using the old cars. Apparently the
    thought was that the old express/local pattern would be reinstituted
    when all new cars were on line and the Spur was back in operation.
    However, the new express service became very popular and it was
    decided to keep it as a full-time weekday service, which would
    necessitate full-time mainline locals. Also, given the fast running
    time of the expresses, it was decided that any extension beyond
    express territory, where service delays, etc could foul reliability,
    was not worthwhile. Since the line is two tracks south of Pine St,
    express operation would not be very practical. The passenger volume in
    South Phila was also handled adequately by the locals.
    
    The only way for locals to turn back in the vicinity of Walnut would
    be to cross-over to the express tracks south of the station and then
    cross-over again north of the station. There is a cross-over between
    the local tracks north of Lombard-South, just at the point at which
    the two-track subway begins.
    
    A couple of other tidbits - starting just north of Oregon, the subway
    moves from being beneath the east side (northbound lanes) of Broad St
    to beneath the east sidewalk. It remains here the rest of the way to
    Pattison. Parts of the cover include a "local street" portion of Broad
    St in the area of Packer Ave.
    
    The subway moves to the west side of Broad just north of Snyder and
    then moves back to the east side for the Snyder station. Provision is
    in the tunnel for a connection to a possible Passyunk Ave line (once
    considered) as well as a four-track Snyder terminal (you can see the
    tracks are marked Track 3 and Track 4 by signs). Neither of these will
    probably ever be built.
    
    Apparently the lower level Pattison platform is out of service, from
    what I have heard lately. I do not know why. It was seldom used, even
    for storage. It was supposed to be used after stadium events for
    special expresses (this would allow patrons to know which trains were
    locals and which were expresses) but it was not.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7723
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:04 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 02, 1998 at 12:39:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by
    Mike K on December 31, 1997 at 02:02:43:
    
    I forgot to expand on the car issue! Sorry.
    
    The Kawasaki fleet is small (125 cars). It is barely sufficient for
    current operations. SEPTA learned this quite quickly after the new
    cars were all in operation. Even in the early 70's the old car fleet
    was in excess of 150 cars on any given day (of course this dropped to
    around 30 in the dark days of '79-'80). If you visit Fern Rock during
    the peak you will see very few cars in the yard. There are few spares.
    Any extension of express service will tap this even more. Thus, it's
    another argument to keep the current operation.
    
    It's interesting to watch the operation of the line when the Phillies
    play an afternoon weekday game. Typically these end right about the
    start of the afternoon peak. I have been told that the yard is
    practically empty during these times. Of course, the game expresses,
    which lose half their loads between Walnut (PATCO users) and City Hall
    (El, trolley and commuter rail users), can conveniently pick up
    regular express riders at those points and re-enter their usual
    service patterns.
    
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NEXT>7740
PREVIOUS>7721
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question.
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:06 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 02, 1998 at 13:33:37:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy
    question. posted by Steve on January 01, 1998 at 23:21:45:
    
    >As for the system itself, let me relate a story I heard just the
    other >day. A Car Inspector was recently fired for mis-use of his
    Transit Pass. >It seems his pass was showing up in the MetroCard
    computer as being used >during the time he was allegedly on duty. They
    actually developed a >pattern of use and intercepted the Car
    Inspector's girlfriend entering >the system. He had given her his pass
    to use during the day.
    
    Now that is one unlucky person! Here he ends up losing a job paying,
    I'm guessing, maybe $40,000 a year so his girlfriend can save three
    bucks a day.
    To make matters worse, she probably ditched him once the money
    fountain dried up.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7592
POSTER>Mark Oring 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual names)
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:08 1998
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Posted by Mark Oring on January 02, 1998 at 13:46:42:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual
    names) posted by Timothy Speer on December 30, 1997 at 14:37:31:
    
    You were mostly correct on the street sign colors, except the "white"
    you refer to was actually a cream color or light tan. I lived in
    Queens until 1980 and I remember the blue on tan street signs. I liked
    it better when each borough had its own color. I think the white on
    green is pretty much standard throughout the country. I've been living
    in south Florida since 1980. With the exception of a few old signs
    (very few) that are still in black on white, all street signs in all
    counties and municipalities here are white on green.
    
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NEXT>7758
PREVIOUS>7714
POSTER>Andrew Byler 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Broad Street and other 4 track lines
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:10 1998
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Posted by Andrew Byler on January 02, 1998 at 14:52:37:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Broad Street and other 4 track lines posted by
    John B. Bredin on January 02, 1998 at 11:18:46:
    
    My mistake in forgetting Chicago's north side line.
    
    I included the disclaimer about lines in the US to exclude the London
    Tube. I believe the District Line and Picadilly are also on a four
    track line west of London center (the Picadilly is express).
    
    Andy Byler
    
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NEXT>7756
PREVIOUS>7684
POSTER>Andrew Byler 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:12 1998
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Posted by Andrew Byler on January 02, 1998 at 14:58:28:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Andrew
    Huie on December 30, 1997 at 23:26:37:
    
    The alleged problem with the location of the IRT line under Park Ave.
    can be solved by retaking the auto tunnel from 32nd to 40th Sts. for
    railroad use. As Joe Brennan observes in his list of abandoned railway
    stations, this tunnel was originally used by the New York Central to
    access the Madison Square Garden terminal at 26th St. That being the
    case, it should not present enormous difficulties to link it to the
    south side tracks of Penn Station on 31st St. and the loop tracks of
    the lower side of Grand Central (which is to be given to the LIRR when
    they get their act in gear and build their 63rd St. connection). No
    more construction is required than two ramps.
    
    Andy Byler
    
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NEXT>7731
PREVIOUS>7472
POSTER>Mark Oring 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:13 1998
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Posted by Mark Oring on January 02, 1998 at 15:03:31:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46 posted by
    A.pardi on December 26, 1997 at 19:12:55:
    
    >
    
    I beg to differ. My home line at the time was the Queens IND. The
    R-44's went into service in 1971 and were quite numerous by 1972 on
    the E & F lines. The State of the Art Cars (SOAC) made their
    experimental runs in NYC and other cities in 1974. I know because I
    was there. I took many pix of the SOAC. It is true that the SOAC bears
    a striking resemblance to the R-44's and R-46's, but the R-44's came
    first. The R-44's were made by St. Louis Car Co. and the SOAC was made
    by Boeing-Vertol.
    
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NEXT>7738
PREVIOUS>7557
POSTER>Andrew Byler 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:16 1998
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Posted by Andrew Byler on January 02, 1998 at 15:20:21:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe posted by
    Subman23 on December 27, 1997 at 03:15:36:
    
    What to do to end the crisis?
    
    Build the necessary subway connections at Rutgers to allow temporary
    rerouting.
    
    Temporarily eliminate the tolls on the Battery tunnel.
    
    Tear down the bridge and build a new one with the subway in the middle
    on a level with separate truck lanes (so it will be built good and
    strong). Have an upper deck for the cars. Put in toll plazas here, in
    Williamsburgh, and in Queens to end the free ride into Manhattan so
    that useage is evened out. Time for completing this sort of project
    should be no more than 5 years under a DBOM contract. Can anyone be
    found with guts in this spinless city? Robert Moses, where have you
    gone?
    
    Andy Byler
    
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NEXT>7734
PREVIOUS>7729
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:17 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on January 02, 1998 at 15:26:05:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46 posted by
    Mark Oring on January 02, 1998 at 15:03:31:
    
    If you are interested in seeing the SOAC cars, we have them on static
    display at the Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport, Maine. They
    are being gradually restored by one of our members, however they
    currently do not run. We're closed for the season now, but you can get
    our schedule and other Museum information at [9]the Seashore Trolley
    Museum Home Page 
    
    p.s. Our R-4 (#800) and R-7 (#1440) do run!
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station, Anyway?
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:20 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 02, 1998 at 15:38:45:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Quick Changes - SEPTA's Broad St Subway posted by
    smitty on January 02, 1998 at 11:36:44:
    
    Yes. It seems narrower and more confused than usual lately, even
    though I know that is not possible.
    
    (To explain to the others: City Hall has a wall between each express
    and local track, with breaks every 8 feet or so. It is otherwise just
    a pair of island platforms. At each wall section there is a narrow
    staircase leading up to other platforms and the street. Each one is
    numbered and each goes supposedly somewhere else, sort of. There are
    alway people walking along these narrow half-platforms to get to the
    desired narrow staircase.)
    
    It was the first Broad St. station to get fluorescent lights back
    around 1966. Compared to the other stations it looked great then. Now,
    either it is not being maintained properly or the crowds have gotten
    so much bigger recently that the station seems hard to maneuver and
    like it's falling apart because it is so crowded and cluttered.
    Personally, I think it's the larger crowds making it look confusing
    and hard to maneuver.
    
    My guesses as to why they put up the walls in the first place are 1)
    to hold up the platforms above, the streets and the edge of City Hall,
    2) to prevent people from going from express to local and vice versa
    at this station but to wait for the next one. If it's the second one,
    it's like NYC's two Penn Station subway stops, with a center island
    for expresses and to side platforms for locals. If you want to change
    between express and local, you will do it at 42 St instead, and not
    further confuse the crowds at those popular stations. Note that it was
    done for both an IRT and an IND station, but not at the other two 34th
    St express stations, so that is probably the reason. They wouldn't do
    it at Grand Central because there is no adjacent express station, the
    two adjacents being 33 and 51.
    
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NEXT>7743
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Street Sign Colors
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:22 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 02, 1998 at 15:41:56:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual
    names) posted by Mark Oring on January 02, 1998 at 13:46:42:
    
    True, it used to be you could tell when you had crossed from Brooklyn
    to Queens on ordinary streets, and vice versa. Now it can't be that
    easy to tell. And you knew for sure that Marble Hill was in New York
    County, not Bronx County.
    
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NEXT>7735
PREVIOUS>7731
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:23 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 02, 1998 at 15:42:58:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46 posted by
    Mark Oring on January 02, 1998 at 15:03:31:
    
    The SOAC cars were actually based on the R42 body. If you take a look
    at the pictures we have here at [9]http://www.nycsubway.org/soac/ you
    can tell by looking at the blind end of the cars that it is pretty
    similar to the R42 (including the headlights on the blind end!).
    
    Mark, if you'd like to contribute some of your SOAC photos that would
    be really cool. I think it's a pretty neat little train.
    
    -Dave
    
    
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NEXT>7766
PREVIOUS>7734
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:25 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 02, 1998 at 15:44:20:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46 posted by
    Mark Oring on January 02, 1998 at 15:03:31:
    
    One other thing.. Boeing Vertol was the manager of the SOAC project
    but the two cars were built under subcontract by St. Louis Car. Our
    SOAC page has lots more information about the SOAC program direct from
    the FTA.
    
    -Dave
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7639
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Number of stations & track/route mileage - Addendum
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:27 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 02, 1998 at 15:52:25:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Number of stations & track/route mileage -
    Addendum posted by Mark S Feinman on December 30, 1997 at 23:49:32:
    
    There is something weird about that DC number. We here always talk
    about finishing up the 101-mile system in the next 5 years. Their
    number appears to be the route miles times the number of tracks on the
    route (which is always 2).
    
    New York's number also appears to be the system mileage (about 237
    miles) times 2, but that is inaccurate because most of NYC's routes
    have 3 or 4 tracks.
    
    I guess "directional route mileage" means: how much mileage does a
    train going straight somewhere go, without duplication of tracks or
    trains in the same direction, a pretty useless measurement to me
    because not many systems have one way routes, just a couple of miles
    in Paris, the South Ferry Loop on the 1/9 train, and the Heathrow
    Airport section in London, as rare examples.
    
    Hey, at least we're getting closer to the meaning behind all these
    numbers we're throwing around.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7716
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Bronx,Manhattan,Brooklyn+Long Island
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:29 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 02, 1998 at 16:00:35:

   In Reply to: [8]Bronx,Manhattan,Brooklyn+Long Island posted by
    Christopher Rivera on January 02, 1998 at 11:34:40:
    
    You confused me a bit with the 63rd street tunnel reference, but I can
    address the your other question re: Terminal points When the Manhattan
    Bridge was closed trains from Washington Hghts (B) and Concourse (D)
    had no other way to get to their respective lines in Brooklyn which is
    why they terminated at 34th street. The B and D trains coming from
    Brooklyn did use the south tracks on the Manhattan and operated in
    Manhattan via the Broadway BMT (N & R) line, but trains routed to the
    line have no access to the 6th or 8th ave line tracks. They can only
    go as far north as 57thst/7th ave and then through the 63rd st tunnel
    to Queens. Hopefully the Manhattan Bridge won't collapse, but if it
    does the 63rd street is not an alternate route.
    
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NEXT>7764
PREVIOUS>7730
POSTER>John B. Bredin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:31 1998
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Posted by John B. Bredin on January 02, 1998 at 16:13:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe posted by
    Andrew Byler on January 02, 1998 at 15:20:21:
    
    "Robert Moses, where have you gone?" If Robert Moses were still
    around, he might indeed rebuild the bridge, yes, but you could be
    bloody sure there would be no subway in the middle of it, on the edges
    of it, or anywhere else on it, for that matter. He'd blame the
    bridge's problems squarely on the subway and probably pull subway
    service off of every other bridge that carries it too
    (Williamsburgh?).
    
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NEXT>7742
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Alan Follett 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s)
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:36 1998
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Posted by Alan Follett on January 02, 1998 at 18:04:28:

   In connection with a current thread on bit.listserv.railroad--Can
    anyone out there provide the following dates for the street railway
    system in El Paso, Texas, and Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, whose
    cross-border service using pre-war PCCs lasted into the late 1960's?
    
    1. Date of last rail operation on the U.S. side.
    
    2. Date of last rail operation on the Mexican side. (I believe this
    was several years after the El Paso end was suspended.)
    
    3. Date of formal abandonment. (It's my recollection that this
    occurred substantially later than the end of actual
    operations--perhaps well into the 1970's.)
    
    I know West Texas is a bit remote from Times Square; but thanks in
    advance for any information anyone on Subtalk can provide!
    
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NEXT>7751
PREVIOUS>7725
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question.
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:38 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 02, 1998 at 18:38:41:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy
    question. posted by Peter Rosa on January 02, 1998 at 13:33:37:
    
    Not unlucky - just plain stupid !!!!!
    
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NEXT>7761
PREVIOUS>7709
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:40 1998
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Posted by Eric B on January 02, 1998 at 19:33:42:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!! posted by
    subway-buff on January 02, 1998 at 08:01:53:
    
    The TA has not forgotten the Manhattan Bridge. There's the East River
    Crossings study I posted about earlier, which has recommended a
    connection from Dekalb to the F (Rutgers) tunnel. This proposal, like
    all others, has to go through approval and funding stages, and it
    always takes time, regardless of any fears about the bridge suddenly
    collapsing. You know how they do things today. And just look at how
    long it is taking for the other projects that were mentioned as "The
    TA's currnt priority". They do want to get to work on this connection
    as soon as they can; in the next decade if possible, and that is alot
    faster than they have built anything else these last several decades.
    
    
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NEXT>7745
PREVIOUS>7739
POSTER>Dan Schwartz 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s)
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:42 1998
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Posted by Dan Schwartz on January 02, 1998 at 19:34:06:

   In Reply to: [8]El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s) posted by Alan
    Follett on January 02, 1998 at 18:04:28:
    
    > I know West Texas is a bit remote from Times Square; but thanks in >
    advance for any information anyone on Subtalk can provide!
    
    It surely is! When I was a kid, I used to wonder about the signs on
    the D train that read "6th Ave-Houston". This was on the old R-1/9
    cars, and of course I know now that it was talking about Houston
    (How-ston) Street in Manhattan, not the city of Houston (Hew-ston),
    Texas. Back then I wondered (at about age 8) if the subway somehow
    could take you to Texas. But even Houston, TX is not as far as El
    Paso.
    
    Anyway, I'm wondering how the border crossing was handled on a
    streetcar. Were they a lot more informal about such things back then?
    I guess they must have been, but still I'm sure there were some
    controls.
    Did customs people board the streetcar at the border to check ID? Did
    they make everyone get off for inspection, then let them back on when
    they were cleared? What would happen to someone who didn't have the
    right documents?
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7733
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Street Sign Colors
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:44 1998
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Posted by Eric B on January 02, 1998 at 19:52:45:

   In Reply to: [7]Street Sign Colors posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January
    02, 1998 at 15:41:56:
    
    I never liked the changing of the street sign colors, exept for Staten
    Island. Since its yellow & black was already used in Manhattan, and
    the green wasn't used anywhere, I had always said SI should be green.
    I was always told the green was chosen because it was standard, buit
    there are places like LA that use blue. I was also told it was more
    visible to the drivers, but the blue is very similar to the green. But
    this was Koch's wish.
    I wish they would change them back, (except SI), with some
    modifications--
    The ugly black on yellow would be replaced by white on gold (like the
    "Y" token of "NYC Subway org " on the top of this page (I also have
    suggested doing the same for the Broadway subway N &R, on maps and
    signs, replacing a similar black on yellow scheme). Or, also nice is
    the new bright lemon yellow appearing on school crossings signs. For
    Brooklyn, addressing the visibility at night issue, how about white on
    brown (like LI state park signs), or white on purple (like the
    original EZ pass signs, which have been replaced by pink). Also,
    midtown special signs could use a stop sign red (rather than the brick
    red of historical district signs) This had been used before such as
    "Fire Prevention Square" in Times Sq. (I believe it has been removed)
    
    
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NEXT>7896
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Joshua Caesar 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Theft of Services (on PATH)
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:46 1998
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Posted by Joshua Caesar on January 02, 1998 at 20:00:57:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Theft of Services posted by Steve on December 29,
    1997 at 00:17:39:
    
    What about on the PATH system? I would imagine that harsher
    punishments would be needed to deter fare-beating on PATH since there
    are no regular employees in the stations, unlike the subway, which has
    all of the token clerks.
    
    Joshua Caesar
    studlyjc@aol.com
    
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NEXT>7771
PREVIOUS>7742
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s)
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:49 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 02, 1998 at 21:23:14:

   In Reply to: [8]El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s) posted by Alan
    Follett on January 02, 1998 at 18:04:28:
    
    > I know West Texas is a bit remote from Times Square
    
    Not really! I've got pictures of the El Paso streetcars on the site!
    Check out [9]http://www.nycsubway.org/pcc/elpaso.html.
    
    --Dave
    
    
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NEXT>7750
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Bridges used by subways (was :Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:52 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 02, 1998 at 21:30:26:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe posted by
    John B. Bredin on January 02, 1998 at 16:13:47:
    
    In addition to these two tranis also use the Broadway bridge (1/9),
    Roosevelt ave Queens after Shea stadium- rail bridge over street
    bridge over a freeway trype bridge.
    
    There are probably others that I cant think of right now.
    
    
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NEXT>7748
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>6av watermain break and the PATH trains
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:55 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 02, 1998 at 21:35:00:

   I udnerstand that the F trains run outside of the PATH 6 av tracks-
    *like* a local track (if there would be no wall). My question- How
    come it took till 6pm to get the PATH back on line when the subway was
    running in the morning- are the PATH tracks deeper or some other
    reason they stayed out of service longer. 33 rd street- is the PATH
    track level the same level as the 6 av IND/BMT- or are one or more of
    these different depths.I looked in brakeman's book but it does not
    show depth.
    
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NEXT>7755
PREVIOUS>7747
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 6av watermain break and the PATH trains
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:57 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on January 02, 1998 at 22:25:08:

   In Reply to: [7]6av watermain break and the PATH trains posted by
    subway-buff on January 02, 1998 at 21:35:00:
    
    I think the PATH tracks are lower than the 6th Avenue Local tracks (F
    train). I also think that the express tracks are at a lower level
    (could be wrong on that, but I think that's the case).
    
    
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NEXT>8017
PREVIOUS>7708
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Writing in New York, nowadays !
DATE>Jan 12 11:01:59 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on January 02, 1998 at 22:46:08:

   In Reply to: [7]Writing in New York, nowadays ! posted by Pilot on
    January 01, 1998 at 18:41:39:
    
    Oh, you should have been doing this research 10-15-20 years before.
    You would have had a field day looking and checking out all the tagged
    subway trains! Most trains were just plain filthy (the trains weren't
    frequent visitors of the 'Car Wash' -- perhaps the TA wasn't into
    disco:-)
    But anyway, many of the trains were covered in layers of filth, grime,
    and graffiti, but there were also some cars that had very well-done
    murals done by known graffiti artists, although there weren't that
    many. Most taggers were just scribbling for kicks. None of it exists
    today. It took the Transit Authority large amounts of money and a lot
    of effort, but the finally combatted the "disease" people thought was
    impossible to cure.
    NOW the trains visit the Car Wash regularly and keep those minds and
    machines hummin'!
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7746
POSTER>Bootsy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Bridges used by subways (was :Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
DATE>Jan 12 11:02:02 1998
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Posted by Bootsy on January 02, 1998 at 22:50:28:

   In Reply to: [7]Bridges used by subways (was :Re: Manhattan Bridge
    Millenium Catastrophe posted by subway-buff on January 02, 1998 at
    21:30:26:
    
    The Williamsburg Bridge is used by the Jamiaca Line (J-Z-M)
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7740
POSTER>Fernando Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question.
DATE>Jan 12 11:02:05 1998
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Posted by Fernando Perez on January 02, 1998 at 23:26:39:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy
    question. posted by Joshua Caesar on January 02, 1998 at 12:04:47:
    
    The best part of the student Metrocard for me as a NYC bus operator is
    that students can use the pass after 7Pm without me having to say no
    as in the past flash pass days. I doubt if student passes are tracked
    because I read in the papers when the passes were implemented that
    this was a concern of parents. We were issued memos stating to the
    effect that private schools were to have sessions so not to question
    pass use. As long as the pass is valid when dipped its fine with me.
    As far as Steves story, I have also heard of TA employees letting
    family members use passes and getting caught. We were also issued
    memos on this at MABSTOA, telling us that Transit police were
    monitoring use of employee passes and anyone caught doing this would
    face charges also.
    
    
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NEXT>7760
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Fernando Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>98 for the Department of buses
DATE>Jan 12 11:02:08 1998
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Posted by Fernando Perez on January 02, 1998 at 23:42:57:

   Happy New Years to all my fellow Subtalkees! Here are some things
    lined up for 1998 in NYC buses. West side depot aka Greyhound is going
    to be unveiled in March and will hold 280 buses. 100St and Walnut will
    be closed and there will be a major shuffle in lines and depot
    assignments. 120 MCI over the roads will be delivered this year and 60
    more next year.They will be 45 feet long have 17 more seats and will
    have reading lights, luggage racks and reclining seats. 10 hybrids
    built by ORION will be delivered also.700 standard buses will also be
    delivered through 1999. 40 more articulates will be delivered to be
    operating out of Gun Hill depot.
    Also cracks have been detected on 1993 Orions above the left rear
    wheel wells as well as bus frames. But its not all bad. At 207 St shop
    they are being repaired by welding in new braces and by the end of
    1998 all 498 Orions will be completed and checked for these cracks.
    
    
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NEXT>7775
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station,
DATE>Jan 12 11:02:11 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City
    Hall Station, Anyway? posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 02, 1998 at
    15:38:45:
    
    The walls are actually supports for City Hall. The Subway passes
    directly beneath City Hall, albeit at a diagonal (passing mainly below
    the western side of the building). If the "walls" disappear, City
    Hall, the largest free-standing (no steel reinforcement) structure in
    the Western Hemisphere, disappears too.
    
    The Subway passes under the Market-Frankford El and the two separate
    tunnels for the subway-surface cars. When the El was built, each
    direction also circled City Hall in the same tunnel as the trolleys.
    The straight-thru tunnel for the El didn't open until the mid-30's. If
    you use the free transfer between Subway and El, this is the reason
    you must choose between eastbound and westbound El platforms while on
    the Subway platforms - the El's tunnel prevents a direct connection
    between the two.
    
    The subway also passes under the Commuter Tunnel. The Tunnel came
    along in the early 80's but it was found easier to go over the Subway
    than under it. If you go to the intersection of 15th St and Kennedy
    Blvd you will notice how Kennedy Blvd actually rises as it comes west
    from Broad St. The street came up in elevation about 2.5 feet from its
    elevation pre-Tunnel. If you remember this intersection pre-Tunnel,
    you will recall several more steps to the plaza levels of the
    Municipal Services Bldg and "Love Park" (JFK Plaza) than before the
    Tunnel was constructed.
    
    The Subway angles to the northwest (one of the few curves on the line)
    to tie into the planned Parkway subway at this point. The Parkway line
    was never built, although another unused portion exists far to the
    northwest in the Henry Ave bridge over Lincoln Dr, which has a
    subway-level accommodation which was never used. I believe this is
    where pigeons go at night - it's bird population is tremendous!
    
    City Hall is one of those places where SEPTA and the City of
    Philadelphia have tried to come up with schemes for many things which
    just will not work given the physical impediments. Something as simple
    as closed circuit TV surveillance is a nightmare. Elevators are
    certainly justified but no one can figure out where to put them. And
    it always seems that all trains arrive at the station at once, further
    exacerbating the narrow stairway problem beyond its ridiculousness.
    The one good stairway in the entire station is Stairway 6, which is at
    the north end - it was reconstructed as part of the Commuter Tunnel
    project (which actually moved the westbound trolley tunnel slightly) -
    these are very wide and accommodating. Unfortunately, most folks are
    looking for Stairways 3 or 4, which lead to the El transfer and the
    exits directly into City Hall Courtyard.
    
    The problems you noted are not helped by the busy nature of the
    station and its confines, which make even routine maintenance
    difficult.
    
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7703
POSTER>Mike K 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco
DATE>Jan 12 11:02:13 1998
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Posted by Mike K on January 03, 1998 at 03:06:39:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Changes on MUNI in San Francisco posted by Bootsy
    on January 01, 1998 at 02:49:11:
    
    Right church, wrong pew.
    
    I am NOT Mike Kennedy, the traffic guy. I am a broadcaster, however. I
    work for the Associated Press in New Jersey.
    
    Mike Klufas
    
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NEXT>7767
PREVIOUS>7748
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 6av watermain break and the PATH trains
DATE>Jan 12 11:02:14 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on January 03, 1998 at 03:58:37:

   In Reply to: [8]6av watermain break and the PATH trains posted by
    subway-buff on January 02, 1998 at 21:35:00:
    
    At 33rd Street the PATH trains are a couple of levels higher than the
    6th Ave lines. Beyond that I *think* they're about the same level,
    sandwiched between the 6th Ave local tracks, with the 6th Ave express
    a couple of levels below.
    
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NEXT>7773
PREVIOUS>7728
POSTER>Andrew Huie 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
DATE>Jan 12 11:02:16 1998
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Posted by Andrew Huie on January 03, 1998 at 04:40:11:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Andrew
    Byler on January 02, 1998 at 14:58:28:
    
    Uhh, I think it is going to take a lot more than just a couple of
    ramps, unless you intend to run the trains into the tunnel through the
    street level entrances. The Lex Ave express is directly below the
    tunnel at all times (that's why it dips south of GCT) and the Lex Ave
    local is on either side of the tunnel and only slightly lower, so it's
    impossible for a new tunnel to try to go over the local tracks. So it
    seems that cars are here to stay w/ regards to the tunnel.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>More on street sign colors (to Mark Oring)
DATE>Jan 12 11:02:22 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 03, 1998 at 09:44:20:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Another Flushing Line Question-St.Names (dual
    names) posted by Mark Oring on January 02, 1998 at 13:46:42:
    
    I must disagree with you, Mark. I have sitting in front of me an
    authentic early seventies vintage street sign from Queens (I won't
    tell you how I got it!!!), and I can see why you think it's cream or
    tan. The signs get dirty! The signs have a reflective paint which has
    a strange coloring, but I checked with my cousin, who is a
    professional artist, and he agrees with me that it is appropriate to
    call the background white. At the very edge is the part of the sign
    that was protected from the elements, and it is unquestionably white.
    If anything, they look to me like they have a very slight green cast
    from the dirt. Perhaps the dirt color depends which part of Queens the
    sign is from! Mine is from Ridgewood.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7727
POSTER>FRED WELLMAN 
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SUBJECT>Re: Broad Street and other 4 track lines
DATE>Jan 12 11:02:26 1998
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Posted by FRED WELLMAN on January 03, 1998 at 11:11:06:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Broad Street and other 4 track lines posted by
    Andrew Byler on January 02, 1998 at 14:52:37:
    
    
    The MBTA's Orange line is 4 tracked on its north end. I dno't know if
    they use them but they do exist.
    
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NEXT>7765
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Jim Davis 
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SUBJECT>Universal Accessability & the Surplus
DATE>Jan 12 11:02:29 1998
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Posted by Jim Davis on January 03, 1998 at 12:03:02:

   Most of the subway system is not accessable to people with mobility
    disabiloities who cannot use stairs.
    This is a violation of those peoples' human rights. The very weak
    Americans With Disabilities Act has allowed the MTA to weasel through
    with not access for all-- but a "Plan"--according to which--- even 15
    years from now-- the entire system will not be universally accessable.
    The excuse for the slowness was financial hardship. Now that the
    surplus eliminates that excuse-- the "Plan" must be revised to speed
    it up.
    Did you hear even one politician talking about that?
    Did you hear even one media reporter talking about that? (WBAI-FM
    covered it on a Friday morning show-- because I pushed them to do it.)
    It may be time for an A.D.A. lawsuit against the MTA-- to revise the
    trimetable for access, in the light of their newfound wealth.
    Are there any lawyers or public-interest law firms out there, that
    would be willing to work on such a suit?
    
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NEXT>7790
PREVIOUS>7752
POSTER>Jeff From Flatbush 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 98 for the Department of buses
DATE>Jan 12 11:02:34 1998
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Posted by Jeff From Flatbush on January 03, 1998 at 13:03:14:

   In Reply to: [7]98 for the Department of buses posted by Fernando
    Perez on January 02, 1998 at 23:42:57:
    
    Couple of Questions:
    Are those MCIs like the one's the New York Bus Service uses and will
    they be used on regular routes or just express?
    Which buses are being replaced by the new ones being purchased?
    ('81-'83 need to be put out of their misery)
    
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NEXT>7762
PREVIOUS>7741
POSTER>Christopher Rivera 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
DATE>Jan 12 11:02:36 1998
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Posted by Christopher Rivera on January 03, 1998 at 13:07:58:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!! posted by Eric
    B on January 02, 1998 at 19:33:42:
    
    The Connection will take a long time first traffic will be a
    nightmare. Plus lines will have to have terminate for this tunnel to
    be made. The F train will have to run on the A,C line from Jay street
    to W 4 street. That will be bad for people trhey will have to make a
    suttle train from W 4 street to East Broadway. THe rutgers connection
    will make a mess of a line which has enough problems. The F train is
    one of the LOngest lines in the City. To shorten it will be a problem.
    Is there anyway that there can be a connection without taking a away
    service?
    
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NEXT>7774
PREVIOUS>7761
POSTER>Christopher Rivera 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
DATE>Jan 12 11:02:41 1998
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Posted by Christopher Rivera on January 03, 1998 at 13:08:01:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!! posted by Eric
    B on January 02, 1998 at 19:33:42:
    
    The Connection will take a long time first traffic will be a
    nightmare. Plus lines will have to have terminate for this tunnel to
    be made. The F train will have to run on the A,C line from Jay street
    to W 4 street. That will be bad for people they will have to make a
    suttle train from W 4 street to East Broadway. The rutgers connection
    will make a mess of a line which has enough problems. The F train is
    one of the LOngest lines in the City. To shorten it will be a problem.
    Is there anyway that there can be a connection without taking a away
    service?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7624
POSTER>Christopher Rivera 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Problems - Need Ideas for MTA
DATE>Jan 12 11:02:50 1998
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Posted by Christopher Rivera on January 03, 1998 at 13:24:02:

   In Reply to: [8]Manhattan Bridge Problems - Need Ideas for MTA posted
    by Mike Rothenberg on December 25, 1997 at 00:40:03:
    
    The 2nd Avenue subway will be a big help to one line the 4,5,6 trains
    hold at least 100,000 passengers a day. With the LIRR coming to Grand
    Central that will double conpasity on those trains the 2 anenue line
    will be a great help
    
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NEXT>7803
PREVIOUS>7738
POSTER>Andrew Byler 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:03 1998
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Posted by Andrew Byler on January 03, 1998 at 14:47:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe posted by
    John B. Bredin on January 02, 1998 at 16:13:47:
    
    Robert Moses got more done for the city and the surrounding areas of
    the state than any of the putatative subway moguls of the past 57 odd
    years since the inception of the MTA. It is difficult to imagine that
    New York City (and Long Island) would function well at all without the
    miriad highways and bridges he built. On the other hand, the
    inanbilitiy of the MTA to accomplish major expansions of the Subway
    speaks volumes of the over-politicization of the expansion process.
    
    Excuses that Moses had acess to power and resources which are no
    longer available are cop-out whines. Moses had access to those two
    crucial ingredients of politicized building because he purposefully
    went after them to pursue his vision of the Public Good. Subway
    advocates seem more intent on carping about problems and fantasizing
    than on doing. Moses would have done nothing of the sort. Don't you
    remember that first scene in the Power Broker where Moses was defeated
    and saw his first ideas of building washed away in the political tide?
    Rather than complaining about boogeymen, he went and started amassing
    powers and money with the Triborough Toll Bridge so that he could
    accomplish his other ends.
    
    The MTA currently holds onto not only the transit companies of NYC,
    but also the great cash-cow of Moses, the Triborough Bridge and Toll
    Authority, which charges and absolutely outrageous $7 per round trip
    (350% higher than tolls in Philadelphia, Baltimore, Wilimington,
    Chicago, etc.). And still nothing is done but the production of
    expensive and never implemented proposals and carping about a shortage
    of funds.
    
    Andy Byler
    
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NEXT>7778
PREVIOUS>7759
POSTER>John B. Bredin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:07 1998
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Posted by John B. Bredin on January 03, 1998 at 16:12:37:

   In Reply to: [8]Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by Jim
    Davis on January 03, 1998 at 12:03:02:
    
    Just one point of clarification -- the ADA does not require "the
    entire system" to be "universally accessable". It only mandates that
    key stations of commuter railways and rapid transit systems be
    accessible, NOT every station. Not living in New York, I don't know
    how many stations are accessible, and an ADA lawsuit against the MTA
    may (or may not) be appropriate. I just want to make it clear that the
    result of such a suit would probably not be a system with every
    station fully accessible.
    
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NEXT>7970
PREVIOUS>7735
POSTER>Mark M. Oring 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:10 1998
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Posted by Mark M. Oring on January 03, 1998 at 16:20:39:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46 posted by
    David Pirmann on January 02, 1998 at 15:42:58:
    
    Dave,
    
    I was a 20 year old college student in 1974 and have very good
    recollection of riding the SOAC practically everyday after school. It
    ran on the D, N, A, and then the E lines while in NYC. They are 75
    footers and except for the front look just like the R-44/46. The
    interior of the high-density car is identical in looks and format
    (seating arrangement and all) to the R-44/46, except for the carpeting
    and padding on the seats, of course. If you have done your research
    and know more than I, my apologies. I'm just telling it like I saw it
    first-hand 24 years ago.
    
    BTW, I love your web site. It is very thorough and very informative.
    It also brings back a lot of memories. I've been a train freak since I
    was a toddler. I remember the A/B's, D-Types, Q's, Lo-V's and R-1/9's
    in regular service. I remember pre-Chrystie St. I remember the 3rd Ave
    El (I rode the "Farewell to the El" fan trip on 4/29/73) and Ol'
    Myrt., not to mention the Jamaica El terminating at 168th St.,
    Jamaica. I also remember the R-27's brand spanking new and everything
    after them throuth the R-46's. I moved out of NYC in 1980 and never
    been back, even for a vacation, so the only knowledge I have of any
    post-R-46 equipment comes from your site. I also remember the old 67'
    cars on the Broad St. Subway in Philadelphia along with the PCC's. I
    saw your pix of the new Japanese trolleys and Broad St. cars that now
    run in Philadelphia.
    
    It is so hard to believe that the oldest cars on the system are the
    R-36's. They were so ultra-modern looking back in '64 in their
    blue/grey World's Fair colors. Now they are the despised Redbirds of
    the 90's, the last of the non-stainless steel, non-air conditioned
    cars on the system. I remember when air conditioning in the subway was
    unthinkable. It was considered impractical to air condition trains
    whose doors opened so frequently. That was the mindset in the early
    60's until the experimental 10-car R-38 was deliveered with A/C in
    1966.
    
    As for contributing photos, I'd like to but they are slides and my
    scanner is not capable of scanning transparencies. If I ever get
    around to getting some of my 5000 or so train slides from the 60's and
    70's converted to prints, I'll put them on the Net. Right now, I am in
    the process of creating a web site dedicated to the NYC Transit System
    with pix from the 40's through the 70's with prints that I either took
    myself or acquired from others during the 70's when I was a member of
    the NYC Division of the Electric Railroaders' Association. Once I get
    that web site on the Net, maybe we can trade links.
    
    Mark
    
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NEXT>8095
PREVIOUS>7755
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 6av watermain break and the PATH trains
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:14 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 03, 1998 at 16:24:16:

   In Reply to: [8]6av watermain break and the PATH trains posted by
    subway-buff on January 02, 1998 at 21:35:00:
    
    The really remarkable thing about the water main break was what I
    noticed walking up 6th Avenue to Penn Station on Friday afternoon.
    18th and 19th Streets were blocked off at the 6th Avenue end, with
    sawhorses and yellow tape across the entrances. Now, there were four
    uniformed police officers at 18th and three at 19th. But why?? Surely
    one cop could have handled those duties. Come to think of it, one of
    those traffic agent probably could have done it. There was absolutely
    no reason to have four well-paid police officers doing something like
    that.
    Talk about a culture of waste ...
    
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NEXT>7780
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy SpeER 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>GM fishbowl question
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:17 1998
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Posted by Timothy SpeER on January 03, 1998 at 16:55:01:

   Growing up on the 20th floor of an apartment building, I always had a
    bird's eye view of the M-15's going up First Avenue. I was wondering
    about the large rectangular device on the tops of GM fishbowl buses
    (and maybe the Flxibles, too -- I can't remember too well). It
    probably measured about 3 feet by 4 feet. I always assumed it was a
    radio antenna or something, but if that's the case, why did it have to
    be so BIG? The antenna on RTS's is only a few inches long. Has the
    technology changed so much?
    
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NEXT>7776
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:21 1998
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Posted by Timothy on January 03, 1998 at 16:59:35:

   Can anyone tell me why most commuter rail systems charge higher fares
    during peak (rush) hours, than other times of the day, instead of one
    flat fare that is good at all times, similar to subways and buses?
    Other
    than frequency of service, I've noticed no difference between a peak
    trip,
    and an off peak trip on a commuter train, and therefore, I don't see
    any
    reason why the fares should be raised during peak hours. If the peak
    fares
    included extras, such as complimentary newspapers, coffee, etc. for
    the
    passengers, it would be worth paying the difference.
    Also, most commuter rail systems charge a penalty if fares are paid on
    the
    train, if the station where you board has a ticket office. What would
    most
    likely happen if you were in a hurry, didn't have time to buy ticket
    at
    the station, and all you had was just enough money to pay the fare,
    but
    not enough to pay the penalty, which can range between $2.00 and
    $4.00?
    Would the conductor most likely: 1. Overlook it, and just say "Don't
    worry
    about it", 2. Make you get off the train at the next stop, or 3. Take
    your
    name and address, and bill you for the penalty? Thanks.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Rail to wheel flange clearances
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:23 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 03, 1998 at 17:00:13:

   How close are the flanges of train wheels supposed to be to the inner
    edge of the rails? I assume it is different on a straightaway as
    opposed to on a curve, but I'd like some idea what the official
    tolerances are. Is it the same for all rail systems? ...or is it
    different on LRV systems, for example?
    
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NEXT>7772
PREVIOUS>7745
POSTER>Alan Follett 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s)
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:25 1998
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Posted by Alan Follett on January 03, 1998 at 17:31:09:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s) posted by
    David Pirmann on January 02, 1998 at 21:23:14:
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>7796
PREVIOUS>7771
POSTER>Alan Follett 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s)
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:27 1998
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Posted by Alan Follett on January 03, 1998 at 17:36:46:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s) posted by
    David Pirmann on January 02, 1998 at 21:23:14:
    
    Thanks for pointing out the El Paso City Lines photo site--if I ever
    knew that it was there, I had forgotten. BTW, it appears that the
    answer to my question is that the international loop last operated in
    1973, and the last operation of any kind was in 1974, though the line
    was still in place and theoretically might have been reopened at least
    as late as 1977.
    
    I've posted a followup question on bit.listserv.railroad, where the
    topic originally came up, about the customs and immigration
    arrangements on this service, and will forward to SubTalk if anything
    interesting turns up. It's my impression from a visit to El Paso in
    1993 that the arrangements are pretty expeditious even today;
    thousands of people a day cross the bridges for employment or
    shopping. El Paso and Juarez are, to a large extent, a single economic
    community.
    
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NEXT>8514
PREVIOUS>7756
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:29 1998
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Posted by Eric B on January 03, 1998 at 18:32:53:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: New Hudson River Transit Tunnel posted by Andrew
    Huie on January 03, 1998 at 04:40:11:
    
    A question I always had, is if the exp tracks dip because of something
    above, then why doesn't the CEILING dip?
    
    
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NEXT>7777
PREVIOUS>7762
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:32 1998
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Posted by Eric B on January 03, 1998 at 18:33:34:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!! posted by
    Christopher Rivera on January 03, 1998 at 13:07:58:
    
    The service diversions will probably only be on nights and weekends,
    like the current 63rd St connection. Service would be affected on
    major work like the blasting of the tunnel wall for the connection,
    but the bulk of the work will be in the new tunnel, away from the
    existing tracks.
    
    
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NEXT>7813
PREVIOUS>7753
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station,
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:34 1998
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   In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the
    City Hall Station, Anyway? posted by Bobw on January 03, 1998 at
    00:33:24:
    
    One other problem is people! As the off-peak trains are 4 or 5 car
    trains the passengers tend to cluster around the center of the
    platform, since that's where most of the trains tend to stop.
    
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NEXT>7779
PREVIOUS>7769
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:35 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 03, 1998 at 19:16:52:

   In Reply to: [8]Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
    posted by Timothy on January 03, 1998 at 16:59:35:
    
    Truthfully, I believe that higher rush-hour fares are nothing more
    than a means of generating revenue. It's not like congestion pricing,
    designed to encourage ridership at other times, because the vast
    majority of rush-hour riders do not have that flexibility.
    
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NEXT>7903
PREVIOUS>7774
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:37 1998
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Posted by Nick on January 03, 1998 at 19:38:00:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!! posted by Eric
    B on January 03, 1998 at 18:33:34:
    
    I saw on an A&E subway special (which aired a few years ago) that the
    TA has plans for this tunnel in the early 2000s (like 2003-2007 or so)
    I hope this happens, and w/o F service being shortened.-Nick
    
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NEXT>7787
PREVIOUS>7765
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:39 1998
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Posted by Nick on January 03, 1998 at 19:42:04:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by
    John B. Bredin on January 03, 1998 at 16:12:37:
    
    It will take awhile before all the stations are brought up to
    code...since there are 468 of them. But all new trains (R-110s) are
    handicap excessible (wider doors) and the R-142s and R-143's that are
    hopefully being delivered next year should be the same as well. By the
    way, I noticed your name....are you the cartoonist of the Garfield
    comic strip?-Nick
    
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NEXT>7781
PREVIOUS>7776
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:41 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 03, 1998 at 19:53:03:

   In Reply to: [8]Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
    posted by Timothy on January 03, 1998 at 16:59:35:
    
    Instead of lookink at it from the point of view that the fare is
    raised for Peak travel hours, look at it, that the fares are lowered
    during off-peak hours. Off-peak fares are designed to induce people
    who can travel at off peak time to do so. There are some other
    differences too. My PM train runs express from Penn Station to
    Hicksville (no Jamaica), then express again to Wyandanch. On Off-Peak
    hours - every train is a local. As for the penalty fare, any of the 3
    is likely to happen - depends on the conductor.
    
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NEXT>7782
PREVIOUS>7768
POSTER>Zack 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: GM fishbowl question
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:44 1998
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Posted by Zack on January 03, 1998 at 19:54:11:

   In Reply to: [8]GM fishbowl question posted by Timothy SpeER on
    January 03, 1998 at 16:55:01:
    
    It could be a heater/AC device of some sort. Seattle's Bereta Buses
    have them mounted on the roof i think
    
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NEXT>7797
PREVIOUS>7779
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:47 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 03, 1998 at 19:57:00:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
    posted by Peter Rosa on January 03, 1998 at 19:16:52:
    
    I ride NJT frequently and use monthly tickets. I have seen conductors
    ask people to get off the train at the **same** stop (and the next
    stop)if the passenger did not have the money for the penalty. Usually
    though, the conductor will "warn" the passenger that next time they
    will be put off the train. The NJT rule book "empowers" conductors to
    accept such cases in the discretion of the conductor. (The benefit is
    that if the police are called, the conductor has to go with the
    violator to the police station and that would create extra work for
    the remaining crew members. ( They have one "conductor" and a number
    of "assistant conductors" plus a crew member called "flagman:" or
    "rear Brake" which I presume is a conductor/assistant conductor
    performing that job
    
    
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NEXT>7784
PREVIOUS>7780
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: GM fishbowl question
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:49 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 03, 1998 at 20:01:34:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: GM fishbowl question posted by Zack on January 03,
    1998 at 19:54:11:
    
    If it was straddling off the edge of the roof in the rear, it was the
    Air Conditioning unit. I am sure that Fernando Perez, our bus driver
    and bus expert could give you a longer discourse.
    an interesting side bar: The old fifth ave coach line goldfish bowls
    had A/C in such a place and NYCTA removed them when they siezed the
    rolling stock under eminent domain during fifth ave coach lines last
    strike(they formed MaBSTOA- Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit
    Operating Authority to run those lines. (Here again, Fernando could
    give more details)
    
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NEXT>7806
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Larry Littlefield 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:52 1998
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Posted by Larry Littlefield on January 03, 1998 at 20:28:25:

   So half of the Manhattan Bridge has been out for a decade, a former
    commissioner of Transportation admits the bridge can't be fixed, and
    the MTA releases a report which says the bridge should be fixed. There
    is no plan, but there is a non-plan. Here it is.
    
    At some point it will no longer be possible to run trains over the
    bridge, and service will be ended. Instead of simply cutting off the
    affected portions of the borough to die, the MTA will presumable
    reroute service. People will transfer at Pacific Street, Atlantic
    Avenue, and DeKalb. Or they will get out and walk to other lines.
    
    As a result, a trip to work in Manhattan will become a crowded, hour
    and a half hell from anywhere in the borough at the same time that new
    and improved direct service to Grand Central is provide from Long
    Island and New Jersey. No one working in Manhattan (where two-thirds
    of the city's jobs are, and most of those that pay significant money)
    will put up with that by choice. So people will stop moving to
    Brooklyn, and others will lose. The value of property will fall.
    
    Unable to sell their houses, many of those moving from Bay Ridge,
    Bensonhurst, Midwood and other areas will subdivide their houses and
    try to rent them to those too poor to live anywhere else, but these
    poor people will not have access to jobs, nor will they pay enough to
    maintain the buildings. Eventually, the housing in these neighborhoods
    will be abandoned, with most if its better-off citizens relocated to
    places with better transportation (financed by my tax dollars).
    
    Alarmist? Take a ride up 3rd Avenue in the Bronx, where the 3rd Avenue
    El was torn down and a replacement was planned and never built. Look
    at the housing on either side. Then take a ride down Jerome Avenue, an
    eqaully poor area, but one which still exists.
    
    There are six tunnels from Brooklyn to Manhattan, and with modern
    signals they could carry the entire rush hour load. But a wide swath
    of the Borough is only connected to the bridges, or the bridges and
    one already crowded tunnel, and the tunnels are only connected to one
    set of tracks on the other side. The solution is easy and obvious --
    and if you look at where the bridge lines and the tunnels cross, not
    that disruptive.
    
    But no. Brooklyn's "representatives" care only about their own little
    empires for which they secure funding, and the rest of the state cares
    little about Brooklyn. The Republicans screw Brooklyn because it
    always votes Democratic. The Democrats screw Brooklyn because they
    can, for the same reason. New York City is similarly abused at the
    state level. New York State is similarly abused at the national level.
    
    I say it again -- if New York City's spending on transportation, as a
    share of the income of its residents, had matched the national average
    from 1983 to 1996, it would have spent an additional $7 billion
    dollars. I have already paid for transportation improvements in
    Brooklyn (and decent schools, and not having people cut off from all
    income in my community), and keep on paying. But the money goes
    elsewhere. Its not road vs. rail, or the Manhattan Bridge vs. the 2nd
    Avenue Subway. Its the interests of those who actually want to stay in
    this city, and want it to have a future, vs. those who are moving away
    and using it as a cash cow.
    
    
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NEXT>7786
PREVIOUS>7782
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: GM fishbowl question
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:55 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 03, 1998 at 20:43:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: GM fishbowl question posted by subway-buff on
    January 03, 1998 at 20:01:34:
    
    NO -- These were definitely located towards the front of the bus. Many
    of the buses I'm taking about didn't even have A/C!!!
    
    Remember the fishbowls with the full-length fluorescent-lit
    advertising signs on each side at the top? Gordon's Gin was a common
    advertiser...
    
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NEXT>7789
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Red buses on Avenue B
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:56 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 03, 1998 at 20:48:38:

   Does anyone else remember riding the red buses on Avenue B? I believe
    it was called the M9 then, too. I actually don't remember riding
    INSIDE the bus -- the taillights were big enough to hold onto if you
    stood on the bumper. Thrillsville!
    
    What did the East Broadway bus company evolve from? What other lines
    did it run? When did it go out of business?
    
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NEXT>7791
PREVIOUS>7784
POSTER>Anonymous 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: GM fishbowl question
DATE>Jan 12 11:03:59 1998
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Posted by Anonymous on January 03, 1998 at 21:39:19:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: GM fishbowl question posted by Timothy Speer on
    January 03, 1998 at 20:43:24:
    
    You were right in the first place. The large rectangular objects in
    the front of the bus were radio antenas. Depending on the frequency
    used (not all depots used the same frequency) the antena looked like a
    fin of various lenghts, or the rectangular "hood." Today, all NYCT
    buses have a cone shaped antena.
    
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NEXT>7799
PREVIOUS>7778
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:01 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 03, 1998 at 21:57:09:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by
    John B. Bredin on January 03, 1998 at 16:12:37:
    
    While it would be nice in an ideal world to make every station
    handicapped-accessible, it is virtually impossible in terms of money
    and feasibility. What I feel the MTA should do, instead, is to make
    major stations like 42nd Street, 34th Street, 14th Street, DeKalb
    Ave., Stillwell Ave., Parsons/Archer, Roosevelt Ave., Lexington
    Ave/59th Street, and all of the other terminal stations that are
    strategically located in each borough handicapped-accessible. Then, if
    the handicapped people live more than a certain distance from the
    handicapped-equipped station, the MTA should provide free paratransit
    in a special van or bus from these people's homes to the nearest
    handicapped-accessible station and charge them a half-fare. Then, the
    handicapped people can take the train to the station with an elevator
    that is nearest to their destination, and if their destination is
    further than a certain distance from the station, free transportation
    can be provided from there. I feel this would alleviate the problem of
    equipping each and every station with an elevator, a very costly
    venture, indeed. It would also comply with the ADA in a roundabout way
    that I think would satisfy all.
    
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NEXT>7798
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Red Tape
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:03 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 03, 1998 at 22:35:12:

   One common theme I have noticed in a lot of the postings here is all
    the red tape involved in starting new projects. Why is it so hard to
    get things done now? If it were like this in the past, I think that
    our subway system would be a fraction of the size it is now. I think
    that our politicians should work on eliminating a lot of the wasteful
    processes involved in starting new projects and get moving on some
    important ones. Also, I can find no explaination why the 63rd to Grand
    Central connection for the LIRR is so important for the MTA. Why does
    the MTA consistently cater to Long Island residents at the expense of
    those in the city? I guess the money-bearing Long Islanders are more
    important than the hard-working residents of Brooklyn, at least
    according to the MTA.
    
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NEXT>7794
PREVIOUS>7785
POSTER>Fernando Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Red buses on Avenue B
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:05 1998
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Posted by Fernando Perez on January 03, 1998 at 23:46:08:

   In Reply to: [8]Red buses on Avenue B posted by Timothy Speer on
    January 03, 1998 at 20:48:38:
    
    The Red and Tan bus company which had thier garage on Cherry and
    Clinton St where the PAthmark is now located. They operated the M8 and
    M9 and the X90 express bus. They went out of business in 1980 just
    before the transit strike of that year.
    
    
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NEXT>7931
PREVIOUS>7760
POSTER>Fernando Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 98 for the Department of buses
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:07 1998
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Posted by Fernando Perez on January 03, 1998 at 23:48:57:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: 98 for the Department of buses posted by Jeff From
    Flatbush on January 03, 1998 at 13:03:14:
    
    I haven't seen what the new buses look like but they will be used
    primarily for express service from Staten Island to Manhattan. They
    will probably retire or send the early 80's buses to other depots for
    intermodel service.
    
    
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NEXT>7812
PREVIOUS>7786
POSTER>Fernando Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: GM fishbowl question
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:08 1998
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Posted by Fernando Perez on January 03, 1998 at 23:55:11:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: GM fishbowl question posted by Anonymous on
    January 03, 1998 at 21:39:19:
    
    Anonymous is correct. I remember as a boy that only TA buses had those
    antennae and not any other lines in Manhattan. For those interested I
    have found some bus frequencies and here they are:
    856.6125
    855.6525
    856.3875
    856.4125
    857.3875
    857.4125
    858.3875
    858.4125
    You'll here the command center and drivers and dispatcher patch.
    
    
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NEXT>7808
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: GM fishbowl AC question
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:11 1998
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Posted by Joe M on January 04, 1998 at 00:00:42:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: GM fishbowl question posted by Fernando Perez on
    January 03, 1998 at 23:55:11:
    
    
    When Blitz rehabed the Fishbowls in 83 and 84 they removed the AC. I
    remember the empty AC hoods over the back windows. Did they reinstall
    AC later to these buses?
    
    
    
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NEXT>7832
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question (police the biggest
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:15 1998
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   In Reply to: [7]Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy
    question. posted by Fernando Perez on January 02, 1998 at 23:26:39:
    
    It is true that many N.Y.C.T.A. workers have been caught for improper
    use of their passes. I have found that the Transit Bureau cops (who
    have been issued unrestricted passes) are the worst offenders. They do
    not have their photographs on their passes and frequently swipe in
    girlfriends, buddies and any other cute faces that they want to get a
    "rap" with.
    I wonder if anyone is paying attention to their pass misuses?
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>7810
PREVIOUS>7789
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Red buses on Avenue B
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:17 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 04, 1998 at 06:52:52:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Red buses on Avenue B posted by Fernando Perez on
    January 03, 1998 at 23:46:08:
    
    Now that you mention it, I do remember the garage, but I'm quite
    certain the name of the company was the East Broadway Bus Company, not
    the Red & Tan. Red & Tan is a New Jersey based company which was just
    bought out in 1997 by Coach USA.
    
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NEXT>7818
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>George 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Metro Mess
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:21 1998
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Posted by George on January 04, 1998 at 11:37:17:

   The Transit Authority tells people that they are giving away free
    rides with metrocard purchases. This sounds great but when I went to
    buy a card I saw a message on the bulletin board that said computer
    not working.
    After my train ride I went to another token booth and tried to buy a
    metrocard. But guess what, the clerk said the computer was not
    working.
    
    
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7772
POSTER>Alan Follett 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s)
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:24 1998
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Posted by Alan Follett on January 04, 1998 at 12:06:27:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: El Paso Streetcar Abandonment Date(s) posted by
    Dan Schwartz on January 02, 1998 at 19:34:06:
    
    
    Lee Yoder and Neil Carlson were kind enough to respond to my inquiry
    on bit.listserv.railroad about how the customs and immigration
    formalities were handled on El Paso City Lines' international trolley
    loop. I'm posting this to summarize their reports.
    
    EPCL's ex-San Diego PCCs were modified with bench-type seats with no
    space under them for packages. Going into Mexico, the delays were
    minimal. A Mexican customs or immigration inspector walked through the
    car, occasionally glancing at someone or something. In those days
    before NAFTA, I believe the concern on the Mexican side would mostly
    have been smuggling of consumer electronics, which were subject to
    heavy import duties.
    
    Coming into the U.S., things were more complicated. The arrangement
    was basically that used on the current international bus routes. Once
    across the bridge, the cars pulled up to the entrance end of the
    inspection shed, the same one used for pedestrians. Passengers were
    unloaded, taking everything with them, and walked through the
    inspection area. While this was going on, a U.S. customs or
    immigration inspector walked through the car to make sure that no one
    and nothing remained on board (other than, obviously, the motorman).
    The car then proceeded to the exit end of the shed, where passengers
    reboarded upon presentation of proof of payment.
    
    The question I forgot to ask: did EPCL accept fares in both U.S.
    dollars and Mexican pesos? I imagine they must have; under Mexican
    law, all prices (including, I suppose, transit fares) must be posted
    in pesos, though in the border towns U.S. currency is widely accepted
    and maybe even preferred (the poor old peso hasn't exactly been a
    pillar of stability in recent years!)
    
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NEXT>7802
PREVIOUS>7781
POSTER>FRED WELLMAN 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:26 1998
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Posted by FRED WELLMAN on January 04, 1998 at 12:32:57:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
    posted by subway-buff on January 03, 1998 at 19:57:00:
    
    I think peak pricing also distributs the passenger usage. When you
    have peak rates non commuters will use the off peak to shop ect.
    Subways that do not have peak fares have alot of shopppers ect an have
    a much higher passenger count.
    
    
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NEXT>7814
PREVIOUS>7788
POSTER>Droo 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Red Tape
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:29 1998
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Posted by Droo on January 04, 1998 at 12:36:07:

   In Reply to: [7]Red Tape posted by Adam on January 03, 1998 at
    22:35:12:
    
    I have to disagree. The East River tunnels that connect Penn Station
    to the LIRR and Amtrak lines in Queens are often overcrowded.
    Furthermore, I believe Amtrak would like to expand its service in Penn
    Station, and that cannot be done with the current LIRR presence; a
    solution when the 63rd Street Tunnel was being planned and built was
    to put an LIRR station in or around Grand Central. However, to my
    knowledge (and please correct me if I am wrong) the LIRR level of the
    63rd St. Tunnel is not being connected to anything at the moment (I
    recall reading somewhere that the LIRR level is in fact unusable
    without significant repair).
    Perhaps the reason why the birth and expansion of the early subway
    system is different from today is that when the subway system was
    being built the the IRT & BMT, these were private companies.
    Furthermore, they had the luck of building in mostly undeveloped areas
    (with the obvious exception of what is now downtown Manhattan). Thus,
    construction was much easier (cut and cover must have been much
    simpler back then), and since the system was privately funded by rich
    investors such as August Belmont, questions of public funding were not
    as important as it is today.
    
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NEXT>7809
PREVIOUS>7787
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:32 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 04, 1998 at 15:16:25:

   In Reply to: [8]Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by Jim
    Davis on January 03, 1998 at 12:03:02:
    
    >Most of the subway system is not accessable to people with mobility
    
    >disabiloities who cannot use stairs.
    
    >This is a violation of those peoples' human rights.
    
    Oh give me a break!!! - There's always the bus, etc. I would say that
    it sucks, sure, but it's not a "violation of their human rights"
    
    >The very weak Americans With Disabilities Act
    
    Weak??? What planet are you living on??? Under ADA, being fat
    practically counts as a dissability. Heck, just about ANYTHING can be
    considered a dissability under ADA.
    
    >The excuse for the slowness was financial hardship.
    
    How about: 400+ subway stations, hundreds of commuter ones, the fact
    that engineering and construction takes time, because almost every
    situation is unique...
    
    > Now that the surplus
    
    >eliminates that excuse-- the "Plan" must be revised to speed it up.
    
    Ummm.... 100 million won't even begin to cover the costs of elevators,
    etc everwhere. I'm sure an elevator alone costs 1 million. Nevermind
    installation.
    
    Also, why must YOUR special cause, above all others, be the sole use
    of the money?? The fact is, newer equipment, infestructure upgrades,
    station improvements, etc, benifit ALL of the subway rideing public.
    
    >Did you hear even one politician talking about that?
    
    >Did you hear even one media reporter talking about that? (WBAI-FM
    
    >covered it on a Friday morning show-- because I pushed them to do
    it.)
    
    Maybe the Handicapped (dissabled,special,whatever today's PC term is)
    don't think it's a big issue.
    
    >It may be time for an A.D.A. lawsuit against the MTA-- to revise the
    
    >trimetable for access, in the light of their newfound wealth.
    
    Oh yeah, lawsuits solve EVERYTHING. Ever wonder why a step ladder is
    so expensive?? 1/3 the cost covers lawsuits. Suing the MTA will do
    nothing but cost everyone money, slow down the process more, and do
    nothing to improve acess to stations.
    
    >Are there any lawyers or public-interest law firms out there, that
    would
    
    >be willing to work on such a suit?
    
    I'm sure there are plenty of "public interest" lawyers out there.
    Given this countries' class-action mania, somebody out there is bound
    to take this one up.
    
    Ammusing Aside: Last year, I got a "refund" of 13 dollars for my
    (rather old) computer monitor. Why??? Because the box said 14"
    monitor, but in the manual pointed out the actual veiwable area is
    closer to 13.75". So because I wasn't told so on the box, I get money
    back, because I was "misled" into thinking it was a 14" monitor.
    Nevermind the fact that I knew about this, and would have read about
    it in the manual anyway...
    
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NEXT>7948
PREVIOUS>7613
POSTER>Brian Wolk 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:36 1998
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Posted by Brian Wolk on January 04, 1998 at 15:19:59:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO /Link bad posted
    by Jason on December 30, 1997 at 19:28:53:
    
    The TTC has an official web site? I never knew...
    
    I use the one at http://web.idirect.com/~ttc if that's the one you're
    talking about. It's not an official TTC website but it does have some
    neat information...
    
    Anyway, about Sheppard Subway:
    
    It will have five stations:
    YONGE/SHEPPARD
    BAYVIEW
    BESSARION
    LESLIE
    DON MILLS
    
    Yonge/Sheppard station is to be built above the current Sheppard
    station on the Yonge line, with a tail track to extend slightly west
    of Yonge St.
    
    The 6.4 km line is scheduled for completion in 2002 and will likely be
    serviced solely by the new Bombardier T-1's that are arriving every
    week.
    
    After Sheppard is complete, several other subway projects are
    scheduled to begin, one at a time:
    EGLINTON WEST SUBWAY, WESTBOUND FROM THAT STATION TO THE FORMER YORK
    CITY CENTRE (5 STATIONS, 4.7 km)
    SPADINA-YORK UNIVERSITY SUBWAY, NORTHBOUND FROM DOWNSVIEW TO YORK
    UNIVERSITY (3 STATIONS, 4.4 km)
    SCARBOROUGH RT EXTENSION, FROM McCOWAN UP TO SHEPPARD (4 STATIONS, 3.2
    km)
    
    Even more projects are proposed but will have to wait until the above
    ones are complete, several years down the road.
    
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NEXT>7804
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Bent arm Vs Diamond pantagraphs....
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:38 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 04, 1998 at 15:32:32:

   Ok... This one has been bugging me for a while...
    
    Why does NJT use a diamond shaped pantagraph, and Septa, and Metro
    North use a bent arm type?? Is there a real difference between the
    two? Or is it just the prefeance of the railroads?? I've heard that
    bent arm designs are supposed to be more aerodynamic, but I don't
    believe it.
    
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NEXT>7811
PREVIOUS>7797
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:41 1998
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Posted by Joe M on January 04, 1998 at 16:09:48:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
    posted by FRED WELLMAN on January 04, 1998 at 12:32:57:
    
    
    Most systems ususally use lower off peak fares to encourge people to
    ride off peak if they can to save cqppacity for the peak hours.
    
    Some systems that use fare cards (DC WAMATA) have peak and off peak
    fares for the subays sytem. I remember getting off at Metro Center one
    day to find many people waiting outside the turnstyles. Just I walked
    out the Information Agent announced on the PA that is was off peak and
    every one went into the system. Off peak there is a flat fare Peak is
    distance based. The computer and fare card calcualte where you got on
    and off and deducts the correct amount from the prepaid card. If there
    is not enough value left you need to go to the add a fare machine
    inside the station before you can exit. Reminds one of poor Charlie
    and the MTA.
    
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NEXT>7872
PREVIOUS>7764
POSTER>Constantino Tobio, Jr. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:44 1998
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Posted by Constantino Tobio, Jr. on January 04, 1998 at 16:39:27:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe posted by
    Andrew Byler on January 03, 1998 at 14:47:47:
    
    RM did accomplish much in this city, but his many accomplishments were
    at the expense of rapid transit. Many of his highway projects could
    have been built with enough of a right-of-way for LIRR or subway, but
    they weren't. He would have none of that.
    
    What mass transit needed was a version of Moses, but there was room in
    NY for only one RM. Unfortunately, the people running the subways,
    especially after unification, lacked the vision and power needed to
    accomplish those goals
    
    Constantino Tobio, Jr.
    
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NEXT>7807
PREVIOUS>7801
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Bent arm Vs Diamond pantagraphs....
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:47 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 04, 1998 at 17:07:38:

   In Reply to: [8]Bent arm Vs Diamond pantagraphs.... posted by Philip
    Nasadowski on January 04, 1998 at 15:32:32:
    
    I have to cloud the piocture a bit :-( NJT uses the bent arm for their
    ALP44 locomotives (their electric locomtives). I too have had this
    question and never asked !!
    
    
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NEXT>8513
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>NYCT Deja Vu on NJT!!
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:49 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 04, 1998 at 17:15:06:

   Back in the 1970s NYCT mixed cars of various colors, models on the
    trains. Lately I've noticed NJT runnings trains consisting of mixed
    comet III and comet IV cars on the same train! Doesd anyone know why
    (It answers the unasked question- it seeems that all NJT push/pull
    cars can couple with their other push pull cars). Can they couple to
    their MU cars?
    
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NEXT>7822
PREVIOUS>7783
POSTER>Mellow one 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:52 1998
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Posted by Mellow one on January 04, 1998 at 17:19:50:

   In Reply to: [8]Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough
    posted by Larry Littlefield on January 03, 1998 at 20:28:25:
    
    That's why I asked the question about putting a trollry or light rail
    vehicles (for the politically correct) back on the Brooklyn Bridge.
    Everyone forgets that the transit systems in NYC and Brooklyn were
    built by the entrepaneurs of the day, not the city or state
    governments. Yes, they did have to get franchise rights to build the
    systems. However, the original transit, trolley and predecessor steam
    lines were built and operated with private capital,and made a profit.
    Almost every New Yorker or Brooklynite is looking for the "government"
    to starighten out the mess they have made of everything they touch
    including the transit systems in NYC and everywhere else in this
    country.
    
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NEXT>8092
PREVIOUS>7804
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Bent arm Vs Diamond pantagraphs....
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:54 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 04, 1998 at 17:21:25:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Bent arm Vs Diamond pantagraphs.... posted by
    subway-buff on January 04, 1998 at 17:07:38:
    
    He he... Ok, more fun stuff:
    
    The GG-1 was still in use until '80 or so, the E-60 was around then.
    The GG-1 has a diamond. The E-60 has a 2 bent arms at one end. Yeah.
    Two. One aimed one way, one the other. At the same end. GE never
    ceases to amaze me.
    
    I've seen pictures of Reading trains with funky pans too...
    
    Yet nobody has ever told me why bent arms are better.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7792
POSTER>Eric B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: GM fishbowl AC question
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:55 1998
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Posted by Eric B on January 04, 1998 at 17:35:21:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: GM fishbowl AC question posted by Joe M on January
    04, 1998 at 00:00:42:
    
    Yes, they were placed in the center of the roof.
    
    
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NEXT>7817
PREVIOUS>7799
POSTER>Droo 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
DATE>Jan 12 11:04:58 1998
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Posted by Droo on January 04, 1998 at 17:52:40:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by
    Nick on January 03, 1998 at 19:42:04:
    
    Also, the narrow width of many of the older stations probably would
    make it prohibitively costly to install elevators on all the
    platforms; I don't think all of the stations can reasonably be
    expected to have elevators at any time in the future.
    
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NEXT>7819
PREVIOUS>7794
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Red buses on Avenue B
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:03 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 04, 1998 at 17:58:13:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Red buses on Avenue B posted by Timothy Speer on
    January 04, 1998 at 06:52:52:
    
    My recollection is that the company's name was the Avenue B and East
    Broadway Bus Company and I believe it evolved from horsecar lines. ?
    Red and Tan was a separate company, as you noted. Perhaps locally in
    Manhattan it was referred to as the Red & Tan. ?
    
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NEXT>7830
PREVIOUS>7802
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:07 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 04, 1998 at 18:09:20:

   In Reply to: [8]Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
    posted by Timothy on January 03, 1998 at 16:59:35:
    
    As on any other type of conveyance, the principles of economics comes
    into play here, namely supply and demand. In peak hours, the demand is
    greatest for service, and the supply attempts to match, but generally
    cannot since fleet size, stations, tracks, etc cannot be designed
    around the highest volumes that are carried. There is a premium at
    these times, and premium rates can be justified. Why are airline fares
    relatively cheap now and they were out of sight two weeks ago? Same
    principle.
    
    Some riders can be very selective as to when they use the conveyance.
    Others cannot. Of course, those who are most flexible will often
    choose to ride when the level of service is greatest, i.e. the peak.
    If they can ride just as easily at other times, when demand for
    service is not as great and these riders could be better accommodated
    compared to those who do not have as much flexibility, why shouldn't
    fares be higher to discourage those who can ride off-peak (at cheaper
    rates)?
    
    Also, regular riders are often not as affected by the higher fares
    given the breaks offered with multiple-ride tickets and passes. Those
    who are more "hurt" by this are again the non-regulars and the
    selective riders.
    
    In my limited use of the commuter rail systems in the Northeast in
    peak periods, I have seen all three of your scenarios with the penalty
    fare. The strangest thing I've seen with fares, however (and this has
    nothing to do with the subject) is back when NJT offered free rides on
    its lines on the day of the Hoboken Festival. There were unbelievable
    exchanges when patrons were told that fares were free. I could not
    fathom how many riders practically screamed at ticket agents and
    conductors that they wanted to buy a ticket and they thought they were
    being tricked! So much for trying to give something away...
    
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NEXT>7828
PREVIOUS>7791
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: GM fishbowl question
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:09 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 04, 1998 at 18:19:26:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: GM fishbowl question posted by Fernando Perez on
    January 03, 1998 at 23:55:11:
    
    Wasn't there also a ventilation device of some sort on the forward
    roofs of these buses? I had always heard that New York State had laws
    governing the amount of ventilation that buses had to have and that
    the 3' x 4' boxes described (which sound way too big for radios)
    contained the vent systems. ? This was also why I thought that GM
    offered the T6H-5309/10 model which was specifically designed for
    NYC's requirements. ?
    
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NEXT>7853
PREVIOUS>7775
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station,
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:11 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the
    City Hall Station, Anyway? posted by Dan Lawrence on January 03, 1998
    at 19:10:08:
    
    Back when the Kawasakis began running and the express/local pattern
    became the weekday mainline pattern, I used the Subway much more than
    I do today. After one horrific ride home, I spoke to a friend at SEPTA
    and suggested that the stopping points for expresses and locals be
    adjusted, since the trains are maximum 5-car lengths and each platform
    can accommodate 8-car trains. My thought was just as you noted -
    stagger the loading areas, sign them accordingly, and at least some of
    the crowd problem will dissipate. I even suggested that it could be
    done as follows:
    
    NB local - stop at the extreme north end of the platform - most folks
    are going to subway-surface and westbound El.
    
    NB express - stop at the extreme south end - most folks are coming
    from the eastbound El/subway-surface (same stairway - #3).
    
    SB local - south end. Most riders are changing from the
    El/subway-surface.
    
    SB express - north end. Few riders boarding, those leaving are going
    to the El (stairway #4) or subway-surface (stairway #6, far north
    end).
    
    Of course, there would be some overlap of patrons, but the crowds
    could be broken up at least a little.
    
    You know what happened to this idea - you've observed the results!
    (I.e. nothing was changed.)
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7798
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Red Tape
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:13 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 04, 1998 at 19:37:06:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Red Tape posted by Droo on January 04, 1998 at
    12:36:07:
    
    Heck, given that Slamtrak won't be around much longer, I don't see any
    new need for a LIRR->GCT connection. And while we're on the subject,
    anyone want to place bets on when Amtrak will be gone by?? I say
    before 2005. Given that they aren't even going to meet their promised
    High Speed rail on the NEC, and given that plenty in congress want
    them dead..
    
    Ok...but who would get the NEC then?? I've heard Guilford wants it,
    but I don't think that'll happen.
    
    Ok... I'd say the LIRR should build a terminal downtown (like near
    City Hall), and tunnel from Atlantic Ave to it. Then you'd get rail
    acess to downtown, near Wall St., and you'd also get a 4/5/6, etc
    connection to the subway.
    
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NEXT>7820
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Philip Nasadowski 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line???
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:17 1998
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Posted by Philip Nasadowski on January 04, 1998 at 19:56:59:

   Hey - does anyone know anything about the abandoned station on the
    Flatbush AVE line between Jamacia and East New York??? What was it
    called/when was it closed, etc???
    
    Also, does anyones browser support the _blink_ tag?? :-)
    
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NEXT>7837
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Savannah O. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Transit Museum
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:20 1998
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Posted by Savannah O. on January 04, 1998 at 20:05:57:

   This weekend I went to the Transit Museum in Brooklyn. It is a MUST
    for anyone interested in the subway. The museum is housed in a real
    subway station, with cars dating back from the 1890's. Who knew that
    there were actualy wooden subway cars back in the day? You actually
    get to sit in the wicker seats and look up at the osculating fans.
    It's only $3 and not too crowded on Sat.
    
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NEXT>7852
PREVIOUS>7809
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:22 1998
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Posted by Joe M on January 04, 1998 at 20:26:46:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by
    Nick on January 03, 1998 at 19:42:04:
    
    
    Does Garfield need to be in a box to ride the Subway? Paralel bus
    service that is acessible is usually OK till the stations are
    acceptable and most non-militant people prefer to use paratransit...
    It's easier to use. Paratransit is less expensive on the capital side
    but more expensive on the operating side.
    
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NEXT>7824
PREVIOUS>7795
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Metro Mess
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:26 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 04, 1998 at 20:37:03:

   In Reply to: [8]Metro Mess posted by George on January 04, 1998 at
    11:37:17:
    
    Somehow I strongly suspect the computer "breaks" when they want the
    line to move faster. I hate how long the Metrocard takes to sell. I
    was on line for a token and a train was coming into the station.
    Naturally, everything speeded up and the next 5 people ahead of me
    bought their tokens in like 5 seconds. I had hope I would make the
    incoming train. Then, my luck, the lady in front of me buys a
    Metrocard, taking twice as long as all 5 people in front of me and
    making me miss my train. They need a seperate line for tokens and
    Metrocard. Or just don't sell Metrocard during rush hours.
    
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NEXT>7823
PREVIOUS>7810
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Red buses on Avenue B
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:29 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 04, 1998 at 21:17:43:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Red buses on Avenue B posted by Bobw on January
    04, 1998 at 17:58:13:
    
    I can't imagine anyone calling it the red & Tan -- there was no tan!!!
    
    
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NEXT>7831
PREVIOUS>7815
POSTER>Steve 
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SUBJECT>Re: Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line???
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:32 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 04, 1998 at 22:39:46:

   In Reply to: [8]Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line??? posted by
    Philip Nasadowski on January 04, 1998 at 19:56:59:
    
    The station was Woodhaven: no idea when it was closed...
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7722
POSTER>steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:34 1998
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Posted by steve on January 05, 1998 at 01:28:38:

   In Reply to: [8]Destination Signs NJT and SEPTA posted by Steve L on
    December 31, 1997 at 00:49:22:
    
    
    thank you-----steve
    
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NEXT>7850
PREVIOUS>7806
POSTER>Mike Rothenberg 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:37 1998
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Posted by Mike Rothenberg on January 05, 1998 at 02:25:34:

   In Reply to: [8]Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough
    posted by Larry Littlefield on January 03, 1998 at 20:28:25:
    
    Interesting comments by Larry. There have been earlier comments by
    Larry (I think) and someone else about using both the Rutgers and
    Cranberry tunnels with appropriate connections on both the Brooklyn
    and Manhattan sides. It seems to me that the media needs to be
    contacted so they do a major publicity/education outreach effort to
    the general public. Won't local politicians respond if they are on
    the hotseat? What will the supposed $100 million + surplus be used
    for? Such a situation hasn't occurred before, in NYC (maintenance/
    structural problems are unresolved & 10's of 1000's of subway riders
    are to permanently suffer). It's an outrage, & lousy NYC publicity.
    
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NEXT>7825
PREVIOUS>7819
POSTER>Fernando Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Red buses on Avenue B
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:41 1998
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Posted by Fernando Perez on January 05, 1998 at 03:20:23:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Red buses on Avenue B posted by Timothy Speer on
    January 04, 1998 at 21:17:43:
    
    My apologies to my fellow subtalkees. You are indeed right s to the
    name of the bus company being Avenue B/East Broadway bus company.
    Perhaps it was just a name us Loisaidia's use to call it. The company
    was acquired by the NYCTA on March 29,1980. It brings back many
    memories because as a young boy I would sneak into thier yard where
    the older junked equipment was stored and play for hours on the old
    heaps acting as a junior bus operator. I guess the practice helped
    because now Im a old guy bus operator. It could be also that many of
    the buses they ran were really old heaps and maybe they purchased some
    older equipment from Red and Tans lines, like Metro apple useto do,
    and just didn't paint over them!
    
    
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NEXT>7841
PREVIOUS>7818
POSTER>Subman23 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Metro Mess
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:43 1998
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Posted by Subman23 on January 05, 1998 at 03:48:42:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Metro Mess posted by Adam on January 04, 1998 at
    20:37:03:
    
    Adam,
    
    Let me assure you that clerks do not disable the T.B.T. (computer).
    When a computer goes down a supervisor must be summoned to audit the
    funds in the booth. Often, this process causes clerks to be forced to
    stay hours after their scheduled time of relief. Furthermore,
    customers yell and scream at the clerks; blaming them for this billion
    dollar political white elephant.
    
    It does seem to me that token booth computers do go down too
    frequently. Blame it on the crappy equipment purchased from Cubic
    Corp. by the MTA. I often wonder how many people have gotten rich off
    of this project by purchasing shares in Cubic (symbol: CUB.)?
    
    The Authority has no plans to eliminate metrocard sales during rush
    hour periods. In fact, automatic vending machines will be
    available,sometime in the future (another fiasco purchase), to give
    customers another outlet to purchase their metrocards. The Authority
    is also promoting off-system sales of metrocards. Their ultimate goal
    is to eliminate the token and force customers to use metrocards.
    
    F.Y.I. : Policy is for clerks to sell pre-encoded $15 and $6 cards
    when the token booth computer malfunctions.
    
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NEXT>7827
PREVIOUS>7823
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Red buses on Avenue B
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:45 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 05, 1998 at 05:22:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Red buses on Avenue B posted by Fernando Perez on
    January 05, 1998 at 03:20:23:
    
    That could be! I would have loved playing on their old junked buses --
    too bad I lived on E.6th between 1st and A... I was a little too far
    from their yard.
    
    Were the fares the same as on NYCTA buses?
    
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NEXT>7862
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Bent arm vs. Diamond pantagraphs....
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:47 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 05, 1998 at 08:25:33:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Bent arm Vs Diamond pantagraphs.... posted by
    Philip Nasadowski on January 04, 1998 at 17:21:25:
    
    Or why the 'point' of the bent arm points in the direction of
    travel???
    
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NEXT>7906
PREVIOUS>7825
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Red buses on Avenue B
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:50 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 05, 1998 at 08:29:22:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Red buses on Avenue B posted by Timothy Speer on
    January 05, 1998 at 05:22:47:
    
    I remember riding the express route up to the East Side once. We broke
    down on the Drive and had to be rescued by the follower. Not unique to
    Ave. B service, the only other time I rode an express up from Wall St,
    on TA service, it broke down on the Drive, too!!!
    
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NEXT>7922
PREVIOUS>7812
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: GM fishbowl question
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:51 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 05, 1998 at 08:36:04:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: GM fishbowl question posted by Timothy Speer on
    January 03, 1998 at 20:43:24:
    
    Anyone have any of the rollsigns from those buses. I seem to remember
    that those in Manhattan with fleet numbers in the 6000s had no AC and
    those with fleet numbers in the 8000s had AC. The first 1000 or so
    were in the Queens depots, with the lowest being assigned to Flushing,
    the next group to Jamaica. I can remember when those buses first
    arrived. #8038 was my first ride on the Q15.
    
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NEXT>7833
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lou from Middletown 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>New (sortof)Book
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:54 1998
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Posted by Lou from Middletown on January 05, 1998 at 09:25:34:

   I went to the Transit Museum for the first time in a long time the
    other day,and the new (to me) gift shop they now have Stan Fischler's
    updating of UPTOWN,DOWNTOWN-and believe it or not I've already
    forgotten the title!! Has anyone actually read this yet?? (I didn't
    happen to have an extra $30 on me-why are railbooks so
    expensive??)Also, how is this book of historical maps?? By the way, I
    must say how friendly everyone there is !!! Also in way of a NEW POLL,
    which fairly old railbook would you like to see updated?? I really
    wish Brian Cudahy would update RAILS ACROSS THE MIGHTY HUDSON!!!!
    
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NEXT>7836
PREVIOUS>7811
POSTER>John B. Bredin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:56 1998
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Posted by John B. Bredin on January 05, 1998 at 09:26:09:

   In Reply to: [8]Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
    posted by Timothy on January 03, 1998 at 16:59:35:
    
    Here in Chicago, the Metra doesn't have higher peak-time fares. But
    during peak periods, there are express trains that skip certain
    stations or series of stations, while in off-peak hours, every train
    stops at every station. I presume other commuter rail systems do the
    same thing, and expresses would be a good reason to charge extra --
    that and the frequency of service (on Metra, trains every ten minutes
    or less at rush hour, instead of once an hour off-peak and on some
    lines once every two hours on weekends).
    
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NEXT>7840
PREVIOUS>7820
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line???
DATE>Jan 12 11:05:59 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 05, 1998 at 09:28:27:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line??? posted
    by Steve on January 04, 1998 at 22:39:46:
    
    The Woodhaven station was closed in the middle 1970s. Ridership was
    low, especially since the abandonment of the LIRR's Rockaway line (the
    station was located near the latter line and could be used for
    transfers).
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7793
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy question (police the biggest
DATE>Jan 12 11:06:02 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: Tales of a student MetroCard and a privacy
    question (police the biggest offenders). posted by subman23 on January
    04, 1998 at 00:06:21:
    
    How could an unrestricted pass be kept track of? Since a police
    officer's job may require constant entrance and exit into the system,
    how could misuses be tracked. The only ways I can think of are by
    seeing which officers have excessive entrances within a period of
    time, but who would determine what is excesssive, and how would this
    be enforced? An officer could say they had to give someone directions,
    remove a drunk from the station, and so on. Unless a supervisor
    watches an officer, any misuse could be covered up. The only misuse
    that can't be covered up would be an extremely blatant one, like an
    officer being on vacation and their pass being in constant use, or use
    of the pass while the officer would need to be sleeping to work their
    beat later in the day.
    
    
    
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NEXT>7845
PREVIOUS>7829
POSTER>Joshua Caesar 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New (sortof)Book
DATE>Jan 12 11:06:04 1998
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Posted by Joshua Caesar on January 05, 1998 at 09:49:29:

   In Reply to: [8]New (sortof)Book posted by Lou from Middletown on
    January 05, 1998 at 09:25:34:
    
    I went to the Barnes & Nobles in Bay Terrace a few weeks ago and meet
    Stan Fischler. I also got an autographed copy of his new book. While I
    haven't had the time to read too deeply into it yet, what I read did
    seem pretty good. When I get time and delve deeply into the book, I
    will let you know how it is.
    
    Joshua Caesar
    studlyjc@aol.com
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>MTA NYC Transit: AFC Bulletin AFC42-97
DATE>Jan 12 11:06:06 1998
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on January 05, 1998 at 10:20:59:

   [from nyc.transit]
    
    MTA New York City Transit AFC Bulletin
    Bulletin Order #AFC42-97
    December 22, 1997
    New Fare Policy: The Free-Ride Program
    S. Frazzini, Stations AFC
    
    This bulletin is to review the new fare policy that goes into effect
    on
    January 1, 1998. Also discussed is how to handle problems that may
    occur as we make this major change. If you have any questions about
    this bulletin, please contact your supervisor, field manager, or field
    office. You can also contact Stations AFC at , Monday
    through Friday, 8:30 AM to 4:30 PM.
    
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    --
    
    The Free-Ride Program: 10 Percent Bonus
    
    On January 1, 1998, MTA New York City Transit will start its Free-Ride
    Program. Anytime a customer puts $15 or more on a MetroCard (new caed
    or add value), the TBT will automatically add 10 percent to the
    transaction amount.
    
    The media has focused on the free ride ("11 for 10"), but the customer
    receives 10 percent more value on their MetroCard for ANY purchase
    from
    $15 to $80. Some examples are:
    
    @ When a customer asks for a $15 MetroCard, the TBT will put $16.50
    on the card ($15.00 plus $1.50 bonus free ride). When the card is
    encoded, the agent will see:
    
    Farecard Encoded.
    Value = $15.00 + $1.50 Bonus
    
    @ For a $30 purchase, the customer will get an extra $3.00, ot two
    free rides; and for $45, the customer will get an extra $4.50, or
    three
    free rides.
    
    @ When the customer puts money on a farecard that doesn't result in
    an even number of rides, they build up value toward the next ride. For
    example, an $18.00 purchase will get the customer a $19.80 card
    ($18.00
    + $1.80 bonus), which gives them one free ride ($1.50) and 30 cents
    toward their next free ride.
    
    As long as the customer keeps refilling the MetroCard, the uneven
    amounts will eventually add up to more free rides.
    
    Customers won't see the "bonus" amount on the Token Booth Reader
    DURING
    the transaction. The bonus will show up the very next time they swipe
    the card at the booth reader or on the MetroCard Reader in the
    station.
    
    Reduced-fare customers will also get the 10 percent bonus, whenever
    they put $15 or more on their Reduced-Fare MetroCard.
    
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    --
    
    Pre-Valued $15 Farecards
    
    Beginning January 1st, customers who purchase pre-valued $15
    MetroCards
    (either from the booth or outside merchants) will also get the 10
    percent bonus. Farecards purchased for $15 will contain $16.50 in
    value. Within the booth, these cards are still counted as $15 when
    making calculations for fare and remittance reports.
    
    The bonus pre-valued $15.00 cards MUST NOT be sold before January 1st,
    as they will NOT work in turnstiles nor in bus fareboxes until that
    time. New wrappers on these cards clearly indicate:
    
    "Good on or after January 1, 1998"
    
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    --
    
    Maintainers Verifying Fare Tables in Station Equipment
    
    The AFC area controller (the main computer) sent computerized
    information on the bonus policy down to all station equipment (TBTs
    and
    turnstiles) at the beginning of December. This information is called a
    "fare table." The new fare table will remain inactive until January
    1st.
    
    From December 8th, through December 30th, revenue maintainers will
    visit all fare control areas to confirm that the new fare table has
    been properly downloaded to each piece of equipment. The TBT does not
    have to be shut down for this procedure.
    
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    --
    
    Customer Outreach Program
    
    In addition to television, radio, and newspaper advertising, NYC
    Transit is launching a customer outreach program to educate our
    customers about the changes in fare policy. A take-one labeled "Free
    Rides !" is available at all stations and on buses to address customer
    questions.
    
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    --
    
    Anticipating Problems
    
    Although there has been extensive testing of the bonus function, the
    information being downloaded into station controllers and turnstiles
    is
    very complex. As with any large change, we anticipate that there may
    be
    some problems. Beyond answering customers' questions, Stations
    employees will be identifying and reporting any problems as they
    occur.
    
    Keep in mind that during the first week of this new policy, as we and
    our customers grow accustomed to the changes, we should be patient
    with
    those who have problems.
    
    IMPORTANT As always, station agents and supervisors are the true
    "eyes and ears" of NYC Transit. If you think there is ANY type of AFC
    problem at your location, quickly put together as much information as
    possible (for example, transfer problem at the turnstiles, customers
    coming from a specific bus route, etc.). IMMEDIATELY FOLLOW UP WITH A
    TROUBLE CALL TO STATION COMMAND.
    
    AFC equipment must be checked regularly. Problems, such as TBT
    outages;
    incorrect TBT clocks; locked keyboards; etc., must be reported
    IMMEDIATELY TO STATION COMMAND.
    
    In addition to the field personnel assigned to fare control areas,
    extra help has been assigned to Station Command. Additionally, an
    inter-departmental response team will be on call 24 hours a day from
    December 31st through January 2nd.
    
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NEXT>8090
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Wheel flange to Rail clearance (repost)
DATE>Jan 12 11:06:09 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 05, 1998 at 10:39:32:

   How close are the flanges of train wheels supposed to be to the inner
    edge of the rails? I assume it is different on a straightaway as
    opposed to on a curve,
    but I'd like some idea what the official tolerances are. Is it the
    same for all rail systems? ...or is it different on LRV systems, for
    example?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7830
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
DATE>Jan 12 11:06:13 1998
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on January 05, 1998 at 10:44:12:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Commuter Rail Peak/Off Peak Fares, And Penalties
    posted by Peter Rosa on January 03, 1998 at 19:16:52:
    
    During Peak Service there is a train every 20 minutes (3 an hour),
    during non peak it's one an hour. I'll pay extra for the two other
    trains or options.
    
    I have also paid on the train, but sometimes when the conductor finaly
    gets to me he charged me for getting on the train from the station we
    just left (3 zone differnce) and even with the penaltiy charge, it
    ended up cheaper.
    I also traveled once on Thanksgiving and the train was so crowded my
    ticket was never lifted.....
    
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NEXT>7838
PREVIOUS>7816
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Transit Museum
DATE>Jan 12 11:06:16 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 05, 1998 at 11:12:32:

   In Reply to: [7]Transit Museum posted by Savannah O. on January 04,
    1998 at 20:05:57:
    
    The wooden trains didn't have oscillating (oscillating structure +
    ordinary rotation) fans. They had large overhead fans. And, believe it
    or not, old wooden cars ran on the Myrtle Avenue El until whenever
    they tore it down in the early 1970s. That was because the structure
    was not strong enough for modern cars.
    
    Wicker seats were in cars built as late as the early 50s, in the A
    trains and 7 trains that had bright-colored paint inside, small
    destination signs (bad idea), and light bulbs with translucent covers
    over them, not quite fluorescent, but close. They also had small
    vertically-positioned fans with metal protective covers on them for
    the first time. To me that was the beginning of the modern looking,
    colorful, bright trains (soon to have fluorescent lights) that
    replaced the old-style of trains: those with black, green and
    sometimes white paint and a bunch of incandescent bulbs and a fan
    which could take your head off if you were tall enough. I believe
    these are may be still around, but repainted with the white and baby
    blue outside.
    
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NEXT>7839
PREVIOUS>7837
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Transit Museum
DATE>Jan 12 11:06:18 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 05, 1998 at 11:17:58:

   In Reply to: [7]Transit Museum posted by Savannah O. on January 04,
    1998 at 20:05:57:
    
    Savannah, all here on this site can agree on the cool things at the
    Transit Museum and we are grateful that you took the time to join in
    the discourse on all things Transit. We did not know, however, that
    the fans in the cars actually kiss (osculate!!!) Oscillate, maybe;
    Osculate, never (unless maybe in the last car. ;-) )
    
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NEXT>7843
PREVIOUS>7838
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Transit Museum
DATE>Jan 12 11:06:23 1998
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Posted by Nick on January 05, 1998 at 11:55:20:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Transit Museum posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January
    05, 1998 at 11:12:32:
    
    I was at the transit museum back in April, and toured the cars with
    bright paints inside them. I must say they were pretty funky (which is
    cool). I'm surprised they had those back in the 50s...it seemed more
    like a 60s-70s style to me.-Nick
    
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NEXT>7873
PREVIOUS>7831
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line???
DATE>Jan 12 11:06:26 1998
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Posted by Nick on January 05, 1998 at 11:57:09:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line??? posted
    by Peter Rosa on January 05, 1998 at 09:28:27:
    
    Don't know about the station, but my browser (Netscape 4.0) supported
    the blinking tag. :)-Nick
    
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NEXT>7844
PREVIOUS>7824
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Metro Mess
DATE>Jan 12 11:06:29 1998
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Posted by Nick on January 05, 1998 at 12:01:42:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Metro Mess posted by Subman23 on January 05, 1998
    at 03:48:42:
    
    It's definitly time for those metrocard vending machines...I know how
    long it takes to buy metrocards...as well as when there are 5 people
    in front of you buying them as well!! I just hope the MTA doesn't
    waste money on crappy machines, because then they'll just be out of
    order all the time.-Nick
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Nick 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Tech Bids Due Today (?)
DATE>Jan 12 11:06:31 1998
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Posted by Nick on January 05, 1998 at 12:06:06:

   Last week someone posted that the bids for building the r142s and
    r143s were due today. If this is true, which companies put in bids?
    Did both Kawasaki and Bombardier put in bids, since they built the
    r110s?-Nick
    
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NEXT>7847
PREVIOUS>7839
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Transit Museum
DATE>Jan 12 11:06:32 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 05, 1998 at 12:19:23:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Transit Museum posted by Nick on January 05, 1998
    at 11:55:20:
    
    Have you ever seen the list of color schemes available for the 1955-57
    Chevrolets? The fifties were NOT lacking in bright colors!
    
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NEXT>7848
PREVIOUS>7841
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Metro Mess
DATE>Jan 12 11:06:34 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 05, 1998 at 12:22:53:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Metro Mess posted by Nick on January 05, 1998 at
    12:01:42:
    
    Maybe the MTA should also invest in a few token vending machines at
    busier stations (if they haven't already). This would ease some of the
    token booth clerks' workload as their jobs change and Metrocards
    become the preferred method of payment.
    
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NEXT>7846
PREVIOUS>7833
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New (sortof)Book
DATE>Jan 12 11:06:37 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on January 05, 1998 at 12:52:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by Joshua Caesar on
    January 05, 1998 at 09:49:29:
    
    I have read Stan's new book. (In fact, I got to interview him on WCBS
    Newsradio 88 about a month ago; kinda strange for a meteorologist -
    but the producer knew of my "hobby"!)
    
    The book is good reading. The most enjoyable part in my opinion is the
    recounting of events (building the lines, wrecks, etc.) in a manner
    which conveys the views of people at the time -- a real "human touch."
    
    I will say there were some minor technical errors here and there --
    but probably only the kind that TA workers and SubTalkers would notice
    :-) [Though if he had the book reviewed for these, he could have
    eliminated them easily.] Towards the end, he "rates" all of the lines
    on a scale of one to four; I was very surprised that the Q wasn't
    rated higher -- he didn't even mention the great ride over the
    Manhattan Bridge!
    
    But all-in-all I'd rate it a "buy."
    
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NEXT>7857
PREVIOUS>7845
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New (sortof)Book
DATE>Jan 12 11:06:39 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 05, 1998 at 13:32:03:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by Todd Glickman on
    January 05, 1998 at 12:52:30:
    
    What is the name of the book? I can't find anything other than the
    original Uptown, Downtown and a lot of hockey books by Stan Fischler?
    Can you give us the ISBN number, also? I would really appreciate it,
    since I'm down here in WTOP-1500 territory and can't get to the
    Transit Museum nearly as often as I'd like... (though WCBS comes in
    great at night, and lately because of the early sunset as early as
    3:30 PM sometimes.)
    
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NEXT>7882
PREVIOUS>7843
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
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SUBJECT>Re: Transit Museum
DATE>Jan 12 11:06:41 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 05, 1998 at 13:34:14:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Transit Museum posted by Timothy Speer on January
    05, 1998 at 12:19:23:
    
    No, that's when the new cars started having colors. It was the old
    ones, before these lit-up A trains, that lacked color. The 50s is when
    colorful subway cars began to be used.
    
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NEXT>7858
PREVIOUS>7844
POSTER>Brian 
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SUBJECT>Re: Metro Mess
DATE>Jan 12 11:06:44 1998
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Posted by Brian on January 05, 1998 at 14:54:50:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Metro Mess posted by Timothy Speer on January 05,
    1998 at 12:22:53:
    
    Let us not be so hard on the clerks in the booths after all the
    ultimate
    goal of the MTA is to get rid of them. It is true the system needs
    improvements but if they would only ask the clerks they might get some
    results instead of always threating to get rid of them.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
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SUBJECT>Update re 18th Street IRT station entrance
DATE>Jan 12 11:06:47 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 05, 1998 at 15:03:59:

   Today at lunch I looked around for any traces of entrances to the
    abandoned 18th Street station on the Lexington Avenue line. These
    entrances had been a topic of discussion here a couple of weeks ago.
    Anyway, there is a metal trap door, similar to that used for emergency
    and service access, in the sidewalk on the SE corner of 18th Street
    and Park Avenue South. One of the postings had noted that this
    entrance was used during the response to the 1991 derailment of a 6
    train near the old station. This trap door might have been placed over
    a stairway entrance, although the area it covers is a good deal
    smaller than the opening required for a stairway entrance.
    Other than this trap door, there are no signs at all of any station
    entrances. The sidewalk on the SW corner of the intersection is sort
    of a patchwork. It looks to have been been re-cemented at different
    times, none of them recently. Both the NW and NE sidewalks appear to
    have been redone more recently, and it's possible that the old
    entrances were covered over in the process (as with one of the past
    re-cementings of the SW sidewalk).
    All in all, the TA was quite thorough in obliterating any above-ground
    traces of this station.
    
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NEXT>7871
PREVIOUS>7822
POSTER>Brian 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough
DATE>Jan 12 11:06:49 1998
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Posted by Brian on January 05, 1998 at 15:08:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough
    posted by Mellow one on January 04, 1998 at 17:19:50:
    
    I am not a citizen of NYC but I live upstate I do frequent the city
    when there I make always use the subway. I have been reading into the
    history of the BMT formerly the BRT. It seems to me that it is the age
    old problem of people from outside of Brooklyn or any other part of
    NYC that try to make decessions on situations that they can not
    understand. Let Brooklynites make the decissions for Brooklyn yes. I
    see the folks from outside the city always cry it is our taxes that
    pay for that city. Ah but let us not forget that it is the raping (I
    know that a strong way of putting it) of the city that built the
    State. So goes NYC so goes the World if it falls so shall we all.
    Sorry about the speech ha..
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>S. Warnes 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>subway crime
DATE>Jan 12 11:06:55 1998
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Posted by S. Warnes on January 05, 1998 at 15:21:48:

   HELP! I'm doing a paper regarding subway crime, and am in need of some
    statistics. I'm particularly looking for numbers regarding indecent
    exposure and the like. Thanks!
    
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NEXT>7865
PREVIOUS>7817
POSTER>Semi-Southern Subway Rider 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
DATE>Jan 12 11:06:58 1998
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Posted by Semi-Southern Subway Rider on January 05, 1998 at 15:21:58:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by
    Joe M on January 04, 1998 at 20:26:46:
    
    Thank you for a reasonable answer to the shrill sounding (but in a
    sense reasonable) complaint that started this. Paratransit or even
    taxis are a certainly a better answer than elevators all over the
    place on the subways.
    
    Do you think someone in a wheelchair or with someone with Cerebral
    Palsy on crutches who walks very, very slowly wants to get on a
    Lexington Avenue express at (for example) Grand Central at 5:02 PM or
    at (again, for example) Fordham or Bedford Park Blvd. when Bronx HS of
    Science lets out? I would sooner give them vouchers for 5 taxis a day
    than have them face the difficulties of a crowded subway train if one
    is not easily mobile or able to endure constantly shifting crowds.
    
    In Washington where I live, we have elevators at every station, and
    many wheelchair users use them, but our platforms are 2 or 3 times as
    wide as a NYC platform, they are tilted away from the tracks, our
    trains don't get as crowded, we don't have maze-like tunnels between
    lines, since the system was designed as a single system, not 3
    separate systems, and most stations have a single island platform,
    requiring only 2 elevators, one to the mezzanine, one to the street. A
    transfer station with side platforms at one level has 5 elevators. And
    this is with a system carefully designed to be accessible.
    
    And from my fairly good experience on the DC Metro, most elevator
    users have bicycles or strollers, or just want to avoid extremely long
    and slow escalators, slow being a result of fears of lawsuits. In
    fact, most accidents that have occurred on the escalators were because
    they are so slow and people get inattentive riding them. London has a
    similar system of deep stations but the escalators are short (one may
    take 2 or 3 mid-length ones to change levels) and quick, and no matter
    how crowded they are, they seem safe.
    
    Taking a nearly 100-year old system with only 6-foot-wide platforms
    and even 3-ft in some places and mazes of tunnels and stairways
    throughout, and putting in thousands of barely used (and possibly
    dangerous or used by some as a restroom) elevators will bankrupt us
    all.
    
    And you can't claim they are ONLY for those in need by some group's
    definition. Who decides that my fear of heights or my wife's inability
    to see in 3 dimensions because of vision difficulties or my daughter's
    shortness and fear of trampling in crowds doesn't qualify her to use
    the elevator? DC tried to limit the elevators and within 3 months made
    them available to all. There has not been huge overcrowding of them
    because of that, either. On any day in fact an average of 3 are broken
    in the system and some unlucky bus driver has to shuttle a person or
    two to the next station all day long.
    
    Before some of you turn purple with rage, I am not against the
    elevators and accessible platforms in cities where they can be built
    well, as in Washington and Baltimore, with the system when it is
    initially built or where there is space to put them in in a useful
    way. But as far as New York's subway system goes:
    
    1) it is unbelieveably difficult to use by people with mobility
    difficulties in so many ways other than just entranc stairways,
    
    2) there is no way to put in enough elevators to parallel every
    stairway in the 468 stations, and
    
    3) there is no physical way to get them in there anyway.
    
    Paratransit and taxi vouchers are probably the smartest idea anyone
    ever came up with, as far as I'm concerned. If everybody had exactly
    what they wanted, there would be a station in front of my house and it
    would run express to where I want to go, since my knees are really
    weak. And when I visit NYC, no one would start at one end of the train
    with a paper cup and demand money from everyone, scaring the heck out
    of my children. And the seats would not be made of hard plastic
    inflaming my uncle's hemorrhoids. And they'd make the straps lower so
    my fully grown 4'11" daughter could reach them. And they'd make the
    ads lower so my wife could read them. And they wouldn't sell candy in
    the NY subway because I am a diabetic and it inflames my feelings of
    isolation from the rest of the population. Etc, etc...
    
    Sorry but I felt a strong initial complaint could tolerate a strong
    response.
    
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NEXT>7954
PREVIOUS>7813
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station,
DATE>Jan 12 11:07:00 1998
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   In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the
    City Hall Station, Anyway? posted by Bobw on January 03, 1998 at
    00:33:24:
    
    Wow, who'd ever thought we would all have so much say about one
    station in one city? But it's all true, and the we who pass through
    probably hardly ever think about it. I never did until I wrote my
    posting, and then saw an posting that expanded far beyond what I ever
    would have thought about it. Wow....
    
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NEXT>7856
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 4 track lines in Boston?
DATE>Jan 12 11:07:02 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 05, 1998 at 15:34:10:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Broad Street and other 4 track lines posted by
    FRED WELLMAN on January 03, 1998 at 11:11:06:
    
    Is it a commuter or freight railroad track?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>ed 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Metro Mess/Metro Litter
DATE>Jan 12 11:07:05 1998
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Posted by ed on January 05, 1998 at 16:04:30:

   In Reply to: [7]Metro Mess posted by George on January 04, 1998 at
    11:37:17:
    
    Am I the only one who thinks that the Metrocard is some big joke?
    Speaking of Metro Messes, did they ever predict Metrocard litter --
    the cards themselves and their wrappers -- all over the place. The
    token seems to have been the ultimate recyclable
    
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NEXT>7861
PREVIOUS>7854
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 4 track lines in Boston?
DATE>Jan 12 11:07:07 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 05, 1998 at 16:19:49:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: 4 track lines in Boston? posted by Carl M. Rabbin
    on January 05, 1998 at 15:34:10:
    
    I don't get out to the North end of the Orange Line very often, but I
    thought it was 2 lines of subway (open cut) and 2 lines of commuter,
    which is not real 4-line track in my book. On my end of the Orange
    Line, it's 2 lines of subway (open cut) and 4 lines of commuter rail
    trains.
    
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NEXT>7875
PREVIOUS>7846
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New (sortof)Book
DATE>Jan 12 11:07:09 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 05, 1998 at 16:59:59:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by Carl M. Rabbin on
    January 05, 1998 at 13:32:03:
    
    The book is called "The Subway: A Trip Through Time On New York's
    Rapid Transit" by Stan Fischler
    H&M Productions II Inc. Publisher / New York
    193-07 45th Ave.
    Flushing, NY 11358
    ISBN# 1-882608-19-4
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7848
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Metro Mess
DATE>Jan 12 11:07:11 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 05, 1998 at 17:05:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Metro Mess posted by Brian on January 05, 1998 at
    14:54:50:
    
    Are they just going to get rid of the token clerks or are they going
    to alter their jobs and use them as a customer service agents as they
    do in the Washington DC Metro?
    I don't like the idea of eliminating them. Late at night they are
    sometimes the only other person in the station besides you at times.
    Token booths are a safe place to wait and also a place to go for help.
    I fear that if they are eliminated the crime will skyrocket at night.
    
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NEXT>7955
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Steinway Street (was Re: Update re 18th Street IRT station entrance)
DATE>Jan 12 11:07:16 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 05, 1998 at 17:14:22:

   In Reply to: [8]Update re 18th Street IRT station entrance posted by
    Peter Rosa on January 05, 1998 at 15:03:59:
    
    Talking about station entrances being closed, something strange
    occured with a station entrance at Steinway Street on the G and R
    lines. There is an entrance on Steinway Street, right off of 34th Ave.
    in front of the Salvation Army thrift store. About a year ago, the
    entrance was closed and there were boards covering it from the street
    level. Then, for a long time the entire area, including the fascade of
    the Salvation Army was covered in a thick plastic covering. Just
    recently, a new entrance reopened there but it looks strange. It looks
    like it is temporary, or at least not finished yet. There is a metal
    covering along the outside like most underground entrances, but wooden
    planks are holding the sides up across the middle. I'm just wondering
    if anyone knows what is going on with this project, because I have no
    idea. The entrance didn't even look like it needed work before they
    closed it.
    
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NEXT>7866
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
DATE>Jan 12 11:07:23 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 05, 1998 at 17:18:52:

   It just hit me when I printed out a page listing a book title that the
    tokens on the top of the page are real tokens. I think that the "S" is
    a Philadelphia Student Token, the "A" is actually a triangular old
    Philadelphia token (or is it Chicago or Toronto?), and the "Y" is NYC.
    
    Does anybody know what the 6 tokens really are? I assume someone in
    Subway.org knows, of course....
    
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NEXT>7958
PREVIOUS>7856
POSTER>Carl M. Rabbin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 4 track lines in Boston?
DATE>Jan 12 11:07:26 1998
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Posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January 05, 1998 at 17:22:13:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: 4 track lines in Boston? posted by Timothy Speer
    on January 05, 1998 at 16:19:49:
    
    I agree. Two lines of Subway + two lines of Commuter rail does not
    equal a 4-track line.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7826
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Bent arm vs. Diamond pantagraphs....
DATE>Jan 12 11:07:28 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 05, 1998 at 17:48:28:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Bent arm vs. Diamond pantagraphs.... posted by
    Charles Fiori on January 05, 1998 at 08:25:33:
    
    Not always. The Baltimore LRV's have one pantograph on the A car with
    the "bent arm" pointing toward the cab end of the A car. This means
    that the pans face "backwards" on the northbound trips. We have had a
    few dewirements, but not where you'd expect - the "Rebel Yell". All
    have occurred on the south end of the line (around Patapsco Avenue)
    and usually results in the wire getting torn down. Strangely,
    dewirements have occurred there in both directions. Go figure.
    
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NEXT>7864
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>John 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Condos
DATE>Jan 12 11:07:32 1998
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Posted by John on January 05, 1998 at 17:50:30:

   I heard of some place under Grand Central Terminal called the
    "Condos."
    Some say it is a caven, but I don't think so.
    
    Anyone know what it really is? Ans why is it called the condos?
    
    How big is it?
    
    It there any place I can visit online to read more about it in detail?
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7863
POSTER>John 
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SUBJECT>Condos
DATE>Jan 12 11:07:37 1998
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Posted by John on January 05, 1998 at 17:50:45:

   I heard of some place under Grand Central Terminal called the
    "Condos."
    Some say it is a caven, but I don't think so.
    
    Anyone know what it really is? Ans why is it called the condos?
    
    How big is it?
    
    It there any place I can visit online to read more about it in detail?
    
    
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NEXT>7887
PREVIOUS>7852
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
DATE>Jan 12 11:07:41 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 05, 1998 at 18:03:59:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by
    Semi-Southern Subway Rider on January 05, 1998 at 15:21:58:
    
    In Baltimore, the Metro (MTAspeak for subway) has had unrestricted use
    elevators since Day 1. The MTA reasoned that since the elevators were
    built with public money, the public should be allowed to use them. No
    people problems have ever been recorded with elevators since the
    beginning.
    
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NEXT>7874
PREVIOUS>7860
POSTER>Joshua Caesar 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
DATE>Jan 12 11:07:45 1998
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Posted by Joshua Caesar on January 05, 1998 at 19:06:20:

   In Reply to: [8]Those Tokens at the Top of the Page posted by Carl M.
    Rabbin on January 05, 1998 at 17:18:52:
    
    Are they really all real tokens? I thought it was a graphic made by
    David Pirman, I doubt that tokens could be found from different cities
    with all of the letters in s-u-b-w-a-y, and be of the same size and
    general color.
    
    
    Joshua Caesar
    studlyjc@aol.com
    
    
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NEXT>7881
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>subway-buff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Toekn Booth Clerks (was :Re: Metro Mess)
DATE>Jan 12 11:07:52 1998
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Posted by subway-buff on January 05, 1998 at 19:57:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Metro Mess posted by Adam on January 05, 1998 at
    17:05:30:
    
    Let's say you put in machines- someone has to "feed" the machines,
    someone has to help get stuck credit cards, debit cards, metrocards
    out of the machine. Some one has to tell the passengers "how do you
    get to Coney Island?"
    
    I took the test for station agent, was interviewed and am awaiting a
    response. The system has 468 (maybe more, maybe less!!) stations. Now,
    some of these stations have no crossovers or cross unders such as
    Marcy (J), 723 and B'Way, 86 and Lex, Most stations on the 2 to
    Flatbush. Let just say for argument there are 50 such stops- now we
    are up to 518 stations. Next- one machine wont serve busy stations
    like Times Square, Grand Central etc. Lets say you have 50 stations
    needing 4 machines that now makes 718 machines- I think I read
    somewhere where they would need close to 1000 machines. These machines
    have not even been devloped yet!! Even MARTA which is automated has
    some human clerks and each station has an attendant and MARTA (save
    for Five Points) has one exit per station from the mezzanine. Next-
    look at the ATMs- there are still people who want to use a human
    teller. What I read (I dont remember where) is that they will reduce
    the number through attrition and they will change the duties to
    station customer service agent and will include some light maintenance
    such as stocking the machines(Maybe not collecting the money). Give
    Transit a break. Current and future(I can hope!) employees are not all
    bad-many are on this site!! If fare beating is bad now think what will
    happen when no one is there!!Sure some are bad but mosdt are good and
    are an assett to NYC and transit.
    
    
    
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NEXT>7870
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Commuter rail Signals - A correction
DATE>Jan 12 11:07:56 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 05, 1998 at 20:00:29:

   In Reply to: [8]commter rail line signals posted by subway-buff on
    December 31, 1997 at 18:52:40:
    
    I rechecked the LIRR rules and found that they do not list the
    Flashing Approach signal. I suspect that it is he same for NJT. The
    signal is AMTRAKs and it is used by the LIRR & NJT only when operating
    in AMTRAK territory. Simply put the APPROACH indication means proceed
    at restricted speed (45 MPH) and be prepared to stop at the next
    signal. The Flashing Approach, called ADVANCED APPROACH is a bit less
    restrictive. It tells the engineer to proceed at restricted speed (45
    mph) and be prepared to stop at the 2nd signal. AMTRAK uses this
    additional aspect because their equipment lacks Automatic Speed
    Control. LIRR and NJT have it thus they don't need the additional
    aspect. Sorry for any confusion my earlier post might have caused...
    
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NEXT>7879
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>BMT Semephore Signals
DATE>Jan 12 11:08:01 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 05, 1998 at 20:10:13:

   In the very early years and through the 40s (At Least) the IRT abs
    BRT/BMT used a number of semephore signals. As far as I know, the last
    existing one is at the Stillwell Station at the extreme South end of
    the B line.
    With the reconstruction of Stillwell station starting soon, I doubt
    that it will be there too much longer. The 1944 TA Rule book had a
    very comprehensive listing of all the pre-WWII signal aspects and
    indications (in full color) including the semephores.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7868
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Commuter rail Signals - A correction
DATE>Jan 12 11:08:03 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on January 05, 1998 at 20:14:27:

   In Reply to: [8]Commuter rail Signals - A correction posted by Steve
    on January 05, 1998 at 20:00:29:
    
    A good primer on railroad signals can be found at
    [9]this junction .
    
    -Todd
    
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NEXT>7902
PREVIOUS>7850
POSTER>Larry Littlefield 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough
DATE>Jan 12 11:08:07 1998
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Posted by Larry Littlefield on January 05, 1998 at 20:39:43:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough
    posted by Brian on January 05, 1998 at 15:08:24:
    
    The money sucked out of New York City to provide luxo-services upstate
    has not made upstate prosperous, just as the money sucked out of
    upstate to fund the Medico-industrial complex in the city hasn't
    helped. I have a deal and I think its a good one -- you pay for yours,
    we'll pay for ours, and we'll cut out the middle man in Albany. Why
    complain about our subways and have us complain about all those
    employed on the state road crews? Let's eliminate the Vampire State.
    
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NEXT>8134
PREVIOUS>7803
POSTER>Andrew Byler 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe
DATE>Jan 12 11:08:12 1998
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Posted by Andrew Byler on January 05, 1998 at 20:47:21:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Manhattan Bridge Millenium Catastrophe posted by
    Constantino Tobio, Jr. on January 04, 1998 at 16:39:27:
    
    Actually, there was never any need for room on the highways for
    Commuter trains and rapid transit. New York is blessed with an
    extremely large amount of already in place rail infrastructure - it
    simply needs to use what is there rather than tossing its dollars to
    the four winds.
    
    And there are provisions in some of the highway system for Rapid
    Transit - the LIE beyond Queens Blvd. and the Grand Central near
    LaGuardia both have the capability to take transit lines. And most
    likely, had such projects as the I-78 north of the Jamaica El in
    Brooklyn been built, the El would have been torn down and replaced
    with a median line (this was part of the IND 2nd System after all).
    
    As to Moses being virulently anti-transit - this is mostly remembered
    from the building of the Verrazano Narrows, and the refusal to link
    the R to the SIRR on the other side. There were very few other times
    when it was even an issue in the roads, bridges, and parks he was
    building. I would not view keeping the LIRR out of Jones Beach as a
    second example either - that had much more to do with his vision of
    serving the Plebian masses in their Model T's vs. letting the LIRR and
    its Parlor cars into a public park. The LIRR don't forget, was hardly
    the way of the masses back then.
    
    In any case, I think transit advocates spend too much time harping
    about Moses doing in everything on steel wheels, and not enough time
    realzing that the steel wheels were quite consciously sabotaged to a
    much greater extent by the Nickel fare and the great depression and
    WWII.
    
    Andy Byler
    
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NEXT>8135
PREVIOUS>7840
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line???
DATE>Jan 12 11:08:17 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 05, 1998 at 21:33:34:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Abandoned station on Flatbush Ave Line??? posted
    by Nick on January 05, 1998 at 11:57:09:
    
    As well as my browser, Netscape 3.01, supports the blink tag!
    
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NEXT>7886
PREVIOUS>7866
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
DATE>Jan 12 11:08:21 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 05, 1998 at 21:34:16:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page posted by
    Joshua Caesar on January 05, 1998 at 19:06:20:
    
    I didn't make the graphic, Jason DeCesare did. Don't think he reads
    this board. You can mail him at miles@nycsubway.org and he'll explain
    how he did it.
    
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NEXT>7876
PREVIOUS>7857
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New (sortof)Book
DATE>Jan 12 11:08:26 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 05, 1998 at 21:45:08:

   In Reply to: [8]New (sortof)Book posted by Lou from Middletown on
    January 05, 1998 at 09:25:34:
    
    > I really wish Brian Cudahy would update RAILS ACROSS THE MIGHTY
    > HUDSON!!!!
    
    maybe we can get him to let us put it up on the web!
    
    *grin*
    
    Dave
    
    
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NEXT>7880
PREVIOUS>7875
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New (sortof)Book
DATE>Jan 12 11:08:31 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 05, 1998 at 22:17:40:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by Todd Glickman on
    January 05, 1998 at 12:52:30:
    
    
    I bought the book today, at the Union Square Barnes and Noble, and
    read a few bits of it on the train home to Patchogue. The parts about
    subway accidents caught my attention, and I must say that Stan
    Fischler's descriptions of them were fascinating and a bit scary ...
    next time a subway operator overshoots a platform, I'm getting off no
    matter where the stop is located!
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7710
POSTER>Philip E. Dominguez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Rockaway Park Service
DATE>Jan 12 11:08:35 1998
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Posted by Philip E. Dominguez on January 05, 1998 at 22:25:09:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Rockaway Park Service posted by Carl M. Rabbin on
    January 02, 1998 at 10:22:35:
    
    I guess I would Keep the Rockaway shuttle and have the C train go to
    Lefferts blvd durring Rush Hours and Midday to replace the A.
    
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NEXT>7890
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
DATE>Jan 12 11:08:40 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 05, 1998 at 22:46:47:

   Hi all ....
    
    This (long) post contains a "final draft" of the first of what I hope
    to be many additions to the NYC Subway Resources site in the "New York
    Subway Line by Line" section Dave wants to build. This is the first
    installment covering the Culver Line. I hope to do the Sea Beach and
    West End Lines next. I thought I'd post it here first to get your
    feedback before I "release" it to Dave for inclusion in this section
    (and Dave has to add the photos he wants to the section as well).
    
    See... there really are voluteers out here!
    
    Comments welcome and encouraged. (Sorry if the formatting isn't
    perfect here - I just did a simple copy/past operation; the original
    formats MUCH better and I used the "Brighton Line" as a template).
    
    General History
    
    The Culver Line began service on June 19th, 1875 as a steam railroad
    called the Prospect
    Park and Coney Island between Prospect Park (9th Ave and 20th Street)
    and Gravesend
    Avenue and Neck Road. On July 27th of the same year, the steam line
    reached Cable's Hotel
    (later known as the Ocean View) in the West Brighton section of Coney
    Island at Culver
    Terminal. (Culver Terminal is the predecessor to today's Stillwell
    Avenue; its original location
    was at Surf Avenue and West 5th Street approximately where the
    Brightwater Towers stand
    today. Culver Terminal was a surface terminal adjacent to a
    rollercoaster.) In 1879, the
    railroad leased the New York and Coney Island Railroad, and service
    began between Culver
    Terminal and Norton's Point, the very western most tip of Coney
    Island. Connections to
    steamboats to/from New York City were made at Norton's Point.
    
    The Long Island Railroad acquired a majority interest in the PP&CI in
    1893, which continued
    into 1923 when the Brooklyn Rapid Transit Co was reorganized into the
    Brooklyn-Manhattan
    Transit Co. The BRT leased the PP&CI in 1893 and operated it directly
    until 1912, when
    control was passed to the South Brooklyn Railway. As part of the
    creation of the BMT, the
    South Brooklyn Railway became a BMT subsidiary, and in fact had a
    freight operation beneath
    the Culver Elevated that ran into the 1980s.
    
    The PP&CI was electrified in 1899. LIRR steam passenger service ended
    and some of the
    BRT surface lines started using the PP&CI for through service to Coney
    Island.
    
    In 1919, the Culver Elevated was built over the South Brooklyn ROW
    (between 36th and 37th
    Streets from approximately 10th Ave to McDonald Ave) and over McDonald
    Avenue from
    approximately Ditmas Ave to Kings Highway, and then later to Avenue X.
    By 1920, this
    elevated structure was extended to the present-day connection with the
    Brighton Line at West
    8th Street.
    
    Subway service via 4th Avenue (Brooklyn) to Chambers St began in May,
    1931. On October
    30th, 1954, the portion of the Culver El south of Ditmas Ave was
    transferred to the IND division,
    eliminating the connection of BMT trains from 9th Avenue. IND "D"
    trains began running from
    205th St and the Grand Boulevard & Concourse to Coney Island via 6th
    Avenue (Manhattan)
    and the IND South Brooklyn Line through Smith/9th Streets. The BMT
    Division continued
    service between Ditmas Ave and Chambers Street; in 1959, this service
    was cut back to a
    shuttle between Ditmas Avenue and 9th Avenue using the Coney
    Island-bound track. The
    Ditmas Ave station was "enhanced" with a 4th track on the Coney
    Island-bound side to allow
    the Shuttle to terminate with a cross-platform transfer to Coney
    Island bound D (and later, F)
    trains. The shuttle ran until May 11th, 1975 and was replaced with
    free transfers to the B-35
    bus. The structure between Ditmas Ave and 9th Avenue was torn down in
    the late 1980's and
    the free transfer to the B-35 bus was eliminated in the early '90s.
    (However, with MetroCard
    Gold, this free transfer is once again available). The back of the
    southbound Ditmas Ave
    canopy was "filled in" with the MTA-standard steel wall and only a
    glimpse at the El structure
    from the front, rear or below the station would yield a clue that a
    subway train once stopped
    there. The South Brooklyn ROW is also long gone; while some evidence
    of the ROW still exists
    in the avenues that cross it (uncovered trolley tracks, faded RR
    crossing paint), the ROW is
    now giving way to rows of new townhouses and condos along 36th St.
    Some of the ROW is
    used by an auto-salvage company and a gas station. The concrete ramp
    from the lower level
    of 9th Avenue still remains; however the tracks are long gone.
    
    On November 26th, 1967, as part of the opening of the Chrystie Street
    connection, D service
    was rerouted in Brooklyn over the Manhattan Bridge and down the
    Brighton Line. F service
    replaced D service between West 4th St, Manhattan and Coney Island via
    Smith/9th Street and
    the Culver El. The name "Culver" persists to this day; the R-46s
    indicate that the F train is a
    "Culver Local / Queens Express".
    
    Service patterns over this stretch of El varied through the years;
    however, a constant that ran
    into the 1980s was that trains terminating at Kings highway ran local
    on the Culver El during
    rush hours and trains terminating at Coney Island ran express between
    18th Ave and Kings
    Highway during rush hours. Until a few years ago, there was a double
    crossover just south of
    Kings Highway enabling trains from Coney Island to switch to express;
    this switch was
    removed sometime in the early '90s. All F trains now run local on the
    Culver El and none
    terminate at Kings Highway (normally).
    
    Beneath the Culver El, PCC cars ran on McDonald Ave until October
    31st, 1956. The South
    Brooklyn Railway continuted freight operations along the line into the
    '70s. These trolley tracks
    were used to deliver new subway car equipment to the Coney Island
    Yards through and
    including the R-44 order. In the early '80s, McDonald Ave was
    reconstructed with a new
    concrete base, yet the trolley tracks of the South Brooklyn Railway
    remained intact. In the
    late-80s, the trolley tracks were paved over and the connection to the
    Bay Ridge Line was
    severed.
    
    Andrew R. Culver (1832 - 1906), the man for whom the line was named,
    wanted to create a
    one seat ride from downtown Brooklyn to Coney Island and founded the
    PP&CI. He had plans
    to extend his stream railroad to downtown Brooklyn but ended up
    selling the PP&CI to the LIRR
    because of poor health. While Culver never had the opportunity to see
    his fream become a
    reality, the 5th Avenue elevated finally achieved this goal in the
    mid-1890s using the Culver
    Line.
    
    Photos
    
    place photos here
    
    Timeline
    
    1878 19 June: Opened as the Prospect Park and Coney Island Railroad
    1878 27 June: Extended to Coney Island
    1879: Leased New York and Coney Island RR, service to Norton's Point
    1893: LIRR ownership begins; BRT leases line from LIRR.
    1899: Electrification of surface route
    1900: Through service to Coney Island from 5th Ave El begins.
    1912: Control transferred to South Brooklyn Railway.
    1917 30 May: Ocean Parkway-West 8th St. rebuild opens (BRT)
    1919 16 Mar: Culver El built to Kings Highway from 9th Avenue.
    1919 10 May: Extended to Ave X from Kings Highway.
    1919 29 May: West 8th St.-Stillwell Avenue upper level rebuild opens
    (BRT)
    1920 1 May: El extended to Brighton Line at West 8th Street.
    1923: BRT reorganized into BMT. LIRR ownership ends.
    1931 May: Service to Chambers Street via 4th Ave (Brooklyn) subway.
    1954 30 October: IND connection to Ditmas Ave from Church Ave opens;
    connection to
    9th Avenue severed. D train begins service from The Bronx. Shutle
    trains run between
    Ditmas Ave and 9th Avenue.
    1967 26 November: Chrystie Street connection opens. F trains replace D
    trains on
    Culver El.
    1975 11 May: Culver Shuttle service discontinued at 12:01am.
    Mid-1980s: Shuttle El structure torn down.
    
    Stations
    
    Culver Shuttle
    
    13th Avenue, opened 3/16/1919, closed 5/11/1975
    Ft Hamilton Parkway, opened 3/16/1919, closed 5/11/1975
    9th Avenue (lower level), opened 9/15/1916, closed 5/11/1975.
    
    Culver Elevated
    
    Ditmas Ave, 11/30/1954
    18th Avenue, 3/16/1919
    Avenue I, 3/16/1919
    22nd Ave / Bay Parkway, renamed to Bay Parkway, opened 3/16/1919
    Avenue N, 3/16/1919
    Avenue P, 3/16/1919
    Kings Highway, 3/16/1919
    Avenue U, 5/10/1919
    Avenue X, 5/10/1919
    Van Sicklen, renamed Neptune Ave / Van Sicklen, renamed Neptune Ave,
    5/1/1920
    West 8th Street (lower level), (6/13/1919
    Stillwell Ave-Coney Island, 6/13/1919
    
    Construction
    
    The structure from 9th Avenue is a short tunnel that now leads out
    into the 36th St yard as a wye
    enabling trains to reverse into the yard. The former BMT ramp to the
    Culver Elevated is a
    concrete structure, but not much can be seen given its current use as
    a dumping area for an
    auto-salvage operation. The El from Ft Hamilton Pkwy to Ditmas Ave was
    torn down in the
    1980s but was a typical BMT era 3-track El with side platforms and a
    center express track.
    
    Ditmas Ave is the standard 3-track station with side platforms. The
    southbound platform used
    to be the termius for the Culver Shuttle, which terminated on the
    outermost track, giving the
    platform the feel of an island platform. The back of this platform
    used to be open until the early
    '90s, when the canopy was rehabilitated and the steel walls erected.
    Looking up from the
    street, evidence of where this shuttle once stopped can be seen.
    
    18th Avenue and Kings Highway have center-island express platforms
    between the single
    center express track and the outer local tracks. Neptune Avenue is an
    island platform. All
    other stations are local-only stations with side platforms. Stillwell
    Avenue has center island
    platforms, one each for B (West End) approachng from the north, F
    (Culver) and D (Brighton)
    approaching from the east, and N (Sea Beach) trains approaching from
    the north.
    
    What Makes the Culver Line Interesting?
    
    The stretch of the Culver Line between Neptune Avenue and Avenue X
    provides a god view of
    the Coney Island yards. The "museum fleet" is usually stored on the
    tracks closest to the Culver
    Line. In addition, some cars ready for scrapping are usually stored on
    the short tracks adjacent
    to Shell Road, and these cars can usually be seen very well from the
    Coney Island-bound Ave
    X platform.
    
    The approach from Neptune Avenue into West 8th Street and Stillwell
    Avenue is also fun to
    watch, except that all the R-46s have full-width cabs and most of the
    time, they are covered
    with the back of an adversidement to prevent viewing through the front
    door.
    
    Photo opportunities abound from Avenue X to Stillwell Avenue, as well
    as along Bay Parkway,
    just southwest of the Bay Parkway station. A panoramic view is
    possible at this location
    because of the unobsturucted visibility in the middle of Washington
    Cemetary!
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7885
PREVIOUS>7869
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: BMT Semephore Signals
DATE>Jan 12 11:08:43 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 05, 1998 at 22:49:55:

   In Reply to: [8]BMT Semephore Signals posted by Steve on January 05,
    1998 at 20:10:13:
    
    I think that semaphore signal is going to stay, even after Stillwell's
    reconstruction. The signal isn't in service - it's a dedication to
    people who worked over the years as signal maintainers. There's a
    plaque on the signal that indicates where it came from originally.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7913
PREVIOUS>7876
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New (sortof)Book
DATE>Jan 12 11:08:45 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 05, 1998 at 22:58:31:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by Todd Glickman on
    January 05, 1998 at 12:52:30:
    
    > (In fact, I got to interview him on WCBS Newsradio 88 about a month
    ago;
    
    Is there a RealAudio clip or transcript available off the WCBS web
    site? I missed the interview.
    
    > The book is good reading....in a manner which conveys the views of
    people
    > at the time -- a real "human touch."
    
    Mr Fischler is known for this kind of writing, having seen it in his
    other books "Confessions of a Trolley Dodger from Brooklyn" and "Next
    Stop: Grand Central".
    
    > Towards the end, he "rates" all of the lines on a scale of one to
    four ..
    
    I'm nost sure I agree with all of his ratings but I'll have to read
    them carefully and see.
    
    The book is a 2 thumbs up, IMHO.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7867
POSTER>Brian 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Toekn Booth Clerks (was :Re: Metro Mess)
DATE>Jan 12 11:08:47 1998
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Posted by Brian on January 05, 1998 at 23:01:20:

   In Reply to: [8]Toekn Booth Clerks (was :Re: Metro Mess) posted by
    subway-buff on January 05, 1998 at 19:57:24:
    
    I do not make a habit of coming right back at a comment. I guess your
    right the truth is there is much to do and machines would probrably
    provide the same jobs in a different mannor. Hey it may also enable
    the clerk to finally be free enough to be out of the booth where they
    can be of a greater help I get ya. Thanks Brian
    
    
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NEXT>7884
PREVIOUS>7847
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Transit Museum
DATE>Jan 12 11:08:49 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 05, 1998 at 23:03:08:

   In Reply to: [8]Transit Museum posted by Savannah O. on January 04,
    1998 at 20:05:57:
    
    What's even cooler are the Nostalgia Trains (now being run 3x a year)
    where you not only get to sit in those seats but hear the hum (growl)
    of the traction motors and the straps that made commuters
    "straphangers".
    
    Oh yeah, the set of 3 BRT gate cars? That's going to be the next
    Nostalgia Train on April 26th, 1998. D-Types to Lefferts Blvd,
    transfer to the gate cars to Rockaway. If you're not a member, this is
    a great reason to become one - this trip is for members only! See them
    being restored on a tour being held Tuesday March 24th at 6pm at the
    Coney Island yards.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>fran miller 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>early trolley car accidents in NYC
DATE>Jan 12 11:08:51 1998
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Posted by fran miller on January 05, 1998 at 23:13:57:

   My Grandfather died on december 16, 1913, as a result of injuries he
    received in an accident involving a trolley car on Fort George Hill in
    Manhattan, which I beleive took place on December 6, 1913. He was a
    conductor on the trolley line at that time. I am doing family
    research, and am very interested in learning more about this incident.
    Unfortuneatly all
    the older family members are now gone, so I will have to rely on the
    kindness of others to help me out.
    I am wondering if there is anyone in your network who might know of
    this accident, or be able to point me in the right direction to learn
    more about this.
    thank you for your help!!
    Fran Miller
    
    
    
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NEXT>7897
PREVIOUS>7882
POSTER>Brian 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Transit Museum
DATE>Jan 12 11:08:53 1998
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Posted by Brian on January 05, 1998 at 23:33:27:

   In Reply to: [8]Transit Museum posted by Savannah O. on January 04,
    1998 at 20:05:57:
    
    Yes I agree the folks there are friendly and cool. I brang my kids
    there just this past summer they had a great time and it is affordable
    extremely so. while there we toured the building of the subways
    exhibit I "Steel, Stone and Backbone" I believe it was called I could
    not believe the impact that it made on my kids. They were amazed to
    see that the subway which to them seems sort of mordern was built
    mostly by people using picks and shovels. A for sure thing for any
    train or history buff to check out. We all played conductor while in
    the cars . So go there and relive your childhood again real soon.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7879
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: BMT Semephore Signals
DATE>Jan 12 11:08:55 1998
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on January 05, 1998 at 23:35:17:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: BMT Semephore Signals posted by Mark S Feinman on
    January 05, 1998 at 22:49:55:
    
    That signal is the last semaphore on the system, I believe it was
    removed from the Canarsie line, at 105st.
    -Hank
    
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NEXT>7888
PREVIOUS>7874
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
DATE>Jan 12 11:08:57 1998
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on January 05, 1998 at 23:37:06:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page posted by
    David Pirmann on January 05, 1998 at 21:34:16:
    
    The Y is real, the rest are strategically rearranged.
    -Hank
    
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NEXT>7893
PREVIOUS>7865
POSTER>Joe - M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
DATE>Jan 12 11:08:58 1998
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Posted by Joe - M on January 05, 1998 at 23:46:01:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by
    Dan Lawrence on January 05, 1998 at 18:03:59:
    
    
    How are maintenance costs for the elevators? I have heard that
    vandalism can be quite a problem in trying to keep them operational.
    Can ramps be an alternative where the difference in grades in not
    excessive, such as a commuter station?
    
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NEXT>7889
PREVIOUS>7886
POSTER>Jason R. DeCesare 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
DATE>Jan 12 11:09:01 1998
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Posted by Jason R. DeCesare on January 05, 1998 at 23:59:05:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page posted by Hank
    Eisenstein on January 05, 1998 at 23:37:06:
    
    Hank wrote:
    > The Y is real, the rest are strategically rearranged.
    
    Nope, they are all real tokens, the "Y" is the only NYC token in the
    word.
    The tokens are all the same size and the image was created by putting
    the tokens in a row on the bed of the scanner.
    The tokens were found at flea markets and coin shops and were all
    about 25¢ or so each. The NYC old subway token was purchaced at the
    transit museum gift shop.
    Here is the rundown of what is what (as best as I can recall):
    S - San Diego Electric Railway
    U - Connecticut Company (I think it was supposed to be a "C" though)
    b - Poughkeepsie & Wappingers Falls Railway (inverted & reversed "P")
    W - Capital Transit (DC) or Wilmington & Philadelphia Tr. Co.
    A - Ambridge Motor Coach Co.
    Y - 1953 NYCTA "cut Y" token
    
    I have no idea about the history of the tokens (save for the NYC one),
    I just got them because I thought they were neat!
    
    -Jason
    
    
    
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NEXT>7892
PREVIOUS>7888
POSTER>Jason R. DeCesare 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
DATE>Jan 12 14:07:16 1998
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Posted by Jason R. DeCesare on January 06, 1998 at 00:06:11:

   In Reply to: [8]Those Tokens at the Top of the Page posted by Carl M.
    Rabbin on January 05, 1998 at 17:18:52:
    
    Bzzt, wrong.
    
    I should know, since I did the token graphic!
    
    Here is the rundown of what is what (as best as I can recall):
    S - San Diego Electric Railway
    U - Connecticut Company (I think it was supposed to be a "C" though)
    b - Poughkeepsie & Wappingers Falls Railway (inverted & reversed "P")
    W - Capital Transit (DC) or Wilmington & Philadelphia Tr. Co.
    A - Ambridge Motor Coach Co.
    Y - 1953 NYCTA "cut Y" token
    
    As for the names and histories of the various tokens and their
    companies, I have no idea, save for the NYCTA and just a bit of one
    for the Connecticut Company.
    
    -Jason
    
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NEXT>7891
PREVIOUS>7878
POSTER>david vartanoff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
DATE>Jan 12 14:07:19 1998
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Posted by david vartanoff on January 06, 1998 at 00:10:07:

   In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line posted
    by Mark S Feinman on January 05, 1998 at 22:46:47:
    
    nice product, do you have dates for station designation changes? btw
    it is from the D era on the Culver that Dylan penned "...the all night
    girls and their escapades out on the Deee train..."
    
    
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NEXT>7908
PREVIOUS>7890
POSTER>david vartanoff 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
DATE>Jan 12 14:07:24 1998
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Posted by david vartanoff on January 06, 1998 at 00:10:09:

   In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line posted
    by Mark S Feinman on January 05, 1998 at 22:46:47:
    
    nice product, do you have dates for station designation changes? btw
    it is from the D era on the Culver that Dylan penned "...the all night
    girls and their escapades out on the Deee train..."
    
    
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NEXT>7900
PREVIOUS>7889
POSTER>Jason R. DeCesare 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
DATE>Jan 12 14:07:26 1998
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Posted by Jason R. DeCesare on January 06, 1998 at 00:11:26:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page posted by
    Joshua Caesar on January 05, 1998 at 19:06:20:
    
    All of the tokens are from different cities, are either silver or
    brass in color, and are all the same size.
    The tokens also happen to be the same size as the current CTA and TTC
    tokens as well as the 1953 NYCTA "cut Y" token.
    I have the original image on a zip disk somewhere.
    Although you can't see it in the image, all the tokens are "GOOD FOR
    ONE FARE" side up.
    
    -Jason
    
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NEXT>7981
PREVIOUS>7887
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
DATE>Jan 12 14:07:27 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 06, 1998 at 00:14:23:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by
    Joe - M on January 05, 1998 at 23:46:01:
    
    Vandlism at MTA stations is almost unheard of (there are MTA cops
    around at all times (and ours are full Maryland Police Officers!) and
    vandals are dealt harshly. In fact, destruction of public transit
    facilities is a felony in Md. Maintenance is usually done on weekends,
    especially Sunday, when the subway is closed. (Buses and streetcars
    [Yeah, I know it's Light Rail] can carry the Sunday load just fine.)
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Steve L 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Septa Train Numbers-USENET--REGIONALS==Revisions??????
DATE>Jan 12 14:07:29 1998
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Posted by Steve L on January 06, 1998 at 00:16:03:

   Does anyone have a revised list of train numbers ,,for the Regionals
    ,,,,earlier listing in the USENET
    X7XX ______ Yard=====Example
    
    Thank you ==STEVE
    
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NEXT>7898
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Steve L 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>New Mannattan Bus Garage ,,Route Assignments
DATE>Jan 12 14:07:31 1998
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Posted by Steve L on January 06, 1998 at 00:19:05:

   Looking for a list ,,of new Route Assignements,,reflecting the new
    Manhattan Westside Garage opening
    Route number Depot/Garage
    
    Thank you Steve
    
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NEXT>7905
PREVIOUS>7744
POSTER>Jason R. DeCesare 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Theft of Services (on PATH)
DATE>Jan 12 14:07:33 1998
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Posted by Jason R. DeCesare on January 06, 1998 at 00:39:56:

   In Reply to: [8]Theft of Services (on PATH) posted by Joshua Caesar on
    January 02, 1998 at 20:00:57:
    
    Reminds me of a little story:
    One day I was at a PATH turnstile at Hoboken and inserted a Susan B.
    Anthony dollar (aka PATH token). The coin didn't register, so I pushed
    the coin return button and got two SBA dollars.
    This also happened in Newark and at the WTC to me.
    It is sort of like the turnstiles are slot machines.
    
    -Jason
    
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NEXT>7915
PREVIOUS>7884
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Transit Museum
DATE>Jan 12 14:07:35 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 06, 1998 at 01:05:00:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Transit Museum posted by Mark S Feinman on January
    05, 1998 at 23:03:08:
    
    And even better, those on the tour get to ride the 1904 Brooklyn Union
    cars back from Rockaway! They are currently being restored at the
    Coney Island shop. Hurry up and make reservations before it fills up
    (if it isn't already!).
    
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NEXT>7924
PREVIOUS>7895
POSTER>Fernando Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Mannattan Bus Garage ,,Route Assignments
DATE>Jan 12 14:07:37 1998
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Posted by Fernando Perez on January 06, 1998 at 01:14:22:

   In Reply to: [8]New Mannattan Bus Garage ,,Route Assignments posted by
    Steve L on January 06, 1998 at 00:19:05:
    
    There is gonna be quite a few changes in March and April. Heres a
    partial listing of what I remember from a list passed around by some
    employees:
    Westside-M10,102,79,72,86,66,50/27
    Amsterdam-M104,BX6,BX15,M100
    Manhattanville-M2,3,4,5,101,103,60,98,35
    Mother Clara Hale-M7,BX19,1,7,BX33
    Hudson-M8,9,11,21,22,23,Q32,42,16/34,6,14
    126St.-M15,31,116,96
    This of course is subject to change again but this is probably what is
    going to happen or close to it.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Fernando Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New (sortof)Book Historical Maps
DATE>Jan 12 14:07:39 1998
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Posted by Fernando Perez on January 06, 1998 at 04:36:17:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by Adam on January 05,
    1998 at 16:59:59:
    
    I bought the book Historical maps and I found it pretty interesting
    because each map folds out and is stored in an envelope with a brief
    descriptive history and story of the time period of the map. Its a
    must for history and nostalgia buffs.
    
    
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NEXT>7904
PREVIOUS>7892
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
DATE>Jan 12 14:07:40 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 06, 1998 at 07:56:09:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page posted by
    Jason R. DeCesare on January 05, 1998 at 23:59:05:
    
    'bout all I can help with is Ambridge. It is a town just outside of
    Pittsburgh. Used to date a girl from there.
    
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NEXT>7911
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Platform overshoot in Boston
DATE>Jan 12 14:07:42 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 06, 1998 at 08:22:44:

   This morning, the Northbound 0632 out of Forest Hills (Orange Line)
    overshot the Green Street platform by about 75 feet, and stopped
    abruptly, BIE. The motorman reset the brakes, gave a quick blast of
    the whistle, and backed up. Is this what he/she should have done?
    
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NEXT>8093
PREVIOUS>7871
POSTER>Ex-Brooklyn Boy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough
DATE>Jan 12 14:07:44 1998
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Posted by Ex-Brooklyn Boy on January 06, 1998 at 09:02:04:

   In Reply to: [7]Who Needs A Bridge When You Don't Have A Borough
    posted by Larry Littlefield on January 03, 1998 at 20:28:25:
    
    Don't panic yet! Brooklyn will not be killed by subway delays, people
    will adapt. Your Bronx analogy is not correct, that part of the Bronx
    was in bad shape for many years before the 3rd Avenue el was
    demolished. The old housing stock in Brooklyn is the real problem.
    With the exception of Bay Ridge, Dyker Heights and a few other
    neighborhoods the middle-class has left Brooklyn. What you have left
    is an unfortunately uneducated working class and underclass that were
    probably attracted to Brooklyn in the first place because of it's
    cheap public transportation. It cuts both ways.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7777
POSTER>Mr. Language 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!!
DATE>Jan 12 14:07:46 1998
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Posted by Mr. Language on January 06, 1998 at 09:10:07:

   In Reply to: [7]Manhattan Bridge FAll APART!!!!!!! posted by
    Christopher Rivera on January 01, 1998 at 13:45:48:
    
    Please check your SPELLING!!!!!!! (and grammar too).
    
    
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NEXT>7936
PREVIOUS>7900
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
DATE>Jan 12 14:07:48 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 06, 1998 at 09:18:43:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page posted by
    Jason R. DeCesare on January 06, 1998 at 00:11:26:
    
    Here's a big version, in which you can see the "Good for one fare"
    stuff...
    
    [INLINE]
    
    --Dave
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7896
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Theft of Services (on PATH)
DATE>Jan 12 14:07:49 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 06, 1998 at 09:33:04:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Theft of Services (on PATH) posted by Jason R.
    DeCesare on January 06, 1998 at 00:39:56:
    
    Jason--the trick is to do that after someone has tried an SBA, which
    did not work, and then did not hit the coin return. What a country!!!
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7827
POSTER>Bob Sklar 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Red buses on Avenue B
DATE>Jan 12 14:07:52 1998
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Posted by Bob Sklar on January 06, 1998 at 09:35:24:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Red buses on Avenue B posted by Fernando Perez on
    January 05, 1998 at 03:20:23:
    
    No, that's the name of the company - The Avenue B and East Broadway
    Transit Company. The name has appeared in places such as Geographia
    Map Co.'s old Red Book street guides. Bob Sklar
    
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NEXT>7910
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Year 2000-To David Pirmann
DATE>Jan 12 14:07:54 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 06, 1998 at 09:35:31:

   Maybe this is a harbinger of the Year 2000 problem, but have you
    noticed that when using the "View by Date", all the Jan. postings
    become Feb. postings? Dates on the "View by Thread" page are OK.
    
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NEXT>7912
PREVIOUS>7891
POSTER>Ed Sachs 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
DATE>Jan 12 14:07:57 1998
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Posted by Ed Sachs on January 06, 1998 at 10:28:40:

   In Reply to: [8]New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line posted
    by Mark S Feinman on January 05, 1998 at 22:46:47:
    
    You might want to add something about the service in the 1930s jointly
    between 5th Ave. El and Subway. In non-rush hours, the El trains
    terminated at 9th Ave. and the Subway trains ran to Coney Island.
    In rush hours, the El trains ran local to Coney Island, and the Subway
    trains ran only to Kings Highway (shortage of steel subway cars).
    The rush hour subway trains ran local in the peak direction (inbound
    AM,
    outboud PM), and in the off-peak direction, ran non-stop from Kings
    Highway to 9th Ave. via the express track.
    
    After the 5th Ave. El was torn down in 1940, rush hour subway trains
    still terminated at Kings Highway, and local/shuttle service using
    wooden
    El cars ran rush hours from 9th Ave. to Coney Island. However, during
    this period, the Subway trains ran express in the peak direction,
    stopping
    at 18th Ave., and local in the off-peak direction. This sevice
    continued
    until the D-train was through routed in 1954.
    
    
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NEXT>7919
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>John B. Bredin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Chicago fare agents (was: Re: Toekn Booth Clerks)
DATE>Jan 12 14:08:01 1998
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Posted by John B. Bredin on January 06, 1998 at 10:38:04:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Toekn Booth Clerks (was :Re: Metro Mess) posted by
    Brian on January 05, 1998 at 23:01:20:
    
    Here in Chicago, the CTA got rid of any paying of fares -- token or
    cash -- to human beings. We have a "Transit Card" system, where you
    buy and recharge the card yourself from machines in every station.
    There is one exact-coin/token turnstile per station (often out of
    order), and the rest take only Transit Cards.
    
    But the CTA did **not** get rid of the fare agents. They are now
    "Customer Assistants" who cannot make change or collect fares but can
    assist passengers in using the Transit Card machines and turnstiles,
    as well as answering the usual transit questions and directions. (My
    pet question, usually asked by a thirtysomething couple with two kids
    in tow and the whole lot laden with shopping bags from tourist traps:
    "Is this the train to O'Hare?" DUH! What do you think that picture of
    an airplane on the station entrance means?)
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7907
POSTER>David Pirmann 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Year 2000-To David Pirmann
DATE>Jan 12 14:08:04 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 06, 1998 at 10:43:10:

   In Reply to: [8]Year 2000-To David Pirmann posted by Charles Fiori on
    January 06, 1998 at 09:35:31:
    
    What? looks fine to me! :-) Seriously, it should be fixed now. Thanks.
    
    -Dave
    
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NEXT>7914
PREVIOUS>7901
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Platform overshoot in Boston
DATE>Jan 12 14:08:07 1998
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on January 06, 1998 at 11:21:22:

   In Reply to: [7]Platform overshoot in Boston posted by Timothy Speer
    on January 06, 1998 at 08:22:44:
    
    I hope he checked with the conductor on the radio before to see that
    there wasn't anything behind him, unless he has a view from the cab
    ....
    Seriously, I don't know your Rules of the Road.
    
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NEXT>7916
PREVIOUS>7908
POSTER>John Stewart 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
DATE>Jan 12 14:08:10 1998
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Posted by John Stewart on January 06, 1998 at 11:56:36:

   In Reply to: [7]New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line posted
    by Mark S Feinman on January 05, 1998 at 22:46:47:
    
    Excellent work! You did a fantasic job. I've always found the history
    of the Brooklyn lines fascinating, due to the fact that many of them
    started as independent railroads and evolved through mergers,
    acquisitions, etc., until they finally were incorporated into the New
    York system.
    
    Looking forward to your next installment!
    
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NEXT>8103
PREVIOUS>7880
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New (sortof)Book
DATE>Jan 12 14:08:15 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on January 06, 1998 at 11:57:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New (sortof)Book posted by Mark S Feinman on
    January 05, 1998 at 22:58:31:
    
    Unfortunately, WCBS does not 'Real-audio clip' day-to-day things. In
    fact, they took down the Real-audio live feed -- the new Chairman of
    CBS, Mel Karmazin, said that no CBS station could do it -- don't ask
    me why!
    
    So unless someone out there in radioland recorded the interview, it's
    gone forever. But maybe I can get to do it again sometime....
    
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7911
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
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SUBJECT>Re: Platform overshoot in Boston
DATE>Jan 12 14:08:17 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on January 06, 1998 at 12:01:28:

   In Reply to: [7]Platform overshoot in Boston posted by Timothy Speer
    on January 06, 1998 at 08:22:44:
    
    I believe the operator must clear the reverse move with Central
    Control first.
    
    This is funny, because I rode the Orange Line today from North Station
    to State, and we went BIE three times between stations. Must be a Bad
    Karma Day on the Orange Line!!
    
    Todd
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7897
POSTER>John Stewart 
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SUBJECT>Re: Transit Museum
DATE>Jan 12 14:08:22 1998
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Posted by John Stewart on January 06, 1998 at 12:31:27:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Transit Museum posted by Carl M. Rabbin on January
    05, 1998 at 11:12:32:
    
    It's interesting that you mentioned the wicker seats. I moved to New
    York in the early 70s, and I remember that one of the local lines--the
    AA or the CC?--had subway cars that actually had wicker seats. Coming
    to New York with the idea that it was the world leader in just about
    everything, I was really shocked! I believe that they also had the
    small vertically-positioned fans with metal protective covers that you
    mention. However, I remember the interiors as being painted a blackish
    green (perhaps OD?). A friend of mine had to take this line
    occasionally, and she jokingly called it "the death train"!
    
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NEXT>7917
PREVIOUS>7912
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
DATE>Jan 12 14:08:27 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 06, 1998 at 12:44:00:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
    posted by John Stewart on January 06, 1998 at 11:56:36:
    
    Thank you!
    
    Actually, the 4 south Brooklyn lines (Brighton, West End, Sea Beach
    and Culver) all started out with something in common:
    - they were privately owned
    - their southern terminus was generally a hotel on Coney Island, in
    some cases, built by the individual line owner to help provide a
    passenger base for the line.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7918
PREVIOUS>7916
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
DATE>Jan 12 14:08:30 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 06, 1998 at 12:45:08:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
    posted by Ed Sachs on January 06, 1998 at 10:28:40:
    
    Ed, this is just the kind of stuff I was looking for! Thank you - I
    will add this info to the document.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>8001
PREVIOUS>7917
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
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SUBJECT>Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
DATE>Jan 12 14:08:36 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 06, 1998 at 12:46:27:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New York Subway Line By Line: The Culver Line
    posted by david vartanoff on January 06, 1998 at 00:10:09:
    
    I don't have exact dates yet; I need to go through my batch of older
    subway maps and try to isolate the changes.
    
    As to Dylan, I have no idea! :)
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7920
PREVIOUS>7909
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Chicago fare agents (was: Re: Toekn Booth Clerks)
DATE>Jan 12 14:08:46 1998
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on January 06, 1998 at 12:51:59:

   In Reply to: [7]Chicago fare agents (was: Re: Toekn Booth Clerks)
    posted by John B. Bredin on January 06, 1998 at 10:38:04:
    
    So from Railroad Clerk to Railroad Agent to Token Booth Clerk Customer
    Care Rep or Customer Experience Rep or just plain Hey You!!!
    Just like the IRS, people who don't pay there taxes, Revenue Officers
    still refer to them as "taxpayers" even while they are taking em to
    court .
    
    
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NEXT>7967
PREVIOUS>7919
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Chicago fare agents (was: Re: Toekn Booth Clerks)
DATE>Jan 12 14:08:51 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 06, 1998 at 12:55:54:

   In Reply to: [8]Chicago fare agents (was: Re: Toekn Booth Clerks)
    posted by John B. Bredin on January 06, 1998 at 10:38:04:
    
    > DUH! What do you think that picture of an airplane on the station
    > entrance means?)
    
    Watch out for low flying planes on the L?? :)
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7957
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lou from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! (sorry Hank)
DATE>Jan 12 14:08:56 1998
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on January 06, 1998 at 12:56:22:

   Okay Okay, Leaving Whitehall southbound look to your right, just as
    the train clears the switch from the center track you will see a cut
    out in the wall. Looks just like the start of a tunnel, same circle
    cut and it extends 10 or so feet without track.
    
    I could see why someone could think it is a start of a tunnel to
    Staten Island. It is or looks like a start of a tunnel or the remains
    of a tunnel from somewhere. You have to look quick, the train starts
    to accellerate quick at that point on the downslope to Brooklyn but
    the cut out in the wall is there....
    
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NEXT>7926
PREVIOUS>7828
POSTER>Mark S Feinman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: GM fishbowl question
DATE>Jan 12 14:08:58 1998
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Posted by Mark S Feinman on January 06, 1998 at 13:08:48:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: GM fishbowl question posted by Timothy Speer on
    January 03, 1998 at 20:43:24:
    
    Ahh, yesss, the "BatWings".
    
    I rode many a BatWing bus on the B41 in Brooklyn to get to and from
    the Junction (Flatbush/Nostrand Aves). They were usually numbered in
    the 8000 and 8100 series, IIRC.
    
    Some of the first BatWings, with no A/C, ran on Lexington Ave and were
    numbered in the 6600 and 6700 series, I think.
    
    Also, I think you can see one at the beginning of the "Odd Couple" TV
    series.
    
    --Mark
    
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NEXT>7925
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>"Older" Flxibles?
DATE>Jan 12 14:09:01 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 06, 1998 at 13:51:19:

   Here's another bus question:
    
    I remember a few old Flxibles that were just a little different from
    the ones that were delivered in the seventies. (soon after the new
    look fishbowls, if my memory serves me correctly) These "older"
    Flxibles had a chrome bezel around the passenger bell button that was
    located over the rear door, they had older seats, and the top corner
    lights on the front of the bus were in an unpainted aluminum housing,
    rather than painted sheet metal like the "newer" Flxibles. I remember
    the taillights looking different, too, but I'm sure there were MANY
    other differences, given the fact that I was just a kid at the time. I
    rode one once on the M-13 (now the M-8), but saw them all over the
    place in Staten Island. I imagine NYC didn't buy very many of these,
    but they must have been around for awhile, cause I saw some that were
    green, and all the newer Flxibles were delivered painted blue. Does
    anyone remember these oddballs?
    
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NEXT>8004
PREVIOUS>7898
POSTER>Steve L 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: New Mannattan Bus Garage ,,Route Assignments
DATE>Jan 12 14:09:03 1998
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Posted by Steve L on January 06, 1998 at 14:07:06:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: New Mannattan Bus Garage ,,Route Assignments
    posted by Fernando Perez on January 06, 1998 at 01:14:22:
    
    
    thanks for the info ,are there any other boros involved in Bus Route
    Depot Assignemts ,,Changes
    thank you---steve
    
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NEXT>7927
PREVIOUS>7923
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: "Older" Flxibles?
DATE>Jan 12 14:09:09 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 06, 1998 at 14:08:04:

   In Reply to: [7]"Older" Flxibles? posted by Timothy Speer on January
    06, 1998 at 13:51:19:
    
    There was a 5000-series Flx, without a/c, that appeared in Queens.
    5000 and 5100s were in Bklyn, and 5600-5700 were in Queens, IIRC. The
    next Flxs were in the low 7000s, which orig. had hand rails down the
    middle, again, IIRC.
    A low 9000 series came later, which had back-lit advertising signs,
    negating the possibility of the side sun visors, or whatever you call
    them.
    They also had a full-width destination sign adjacent to the boarding
    door, which was almost never used. Esp. when front signs became ripped
    up, they cannibalized the side ones.
    Actually, now that I remember, there was a 4000-series Flxible, which
    came WITH a/c, that did come in green. I have a picture of one, parked
    at Floyd Bennett Field. Need more history on that one, though.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7922
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: GM fishbowl question
DATE>Jan 12 14:09:11 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 06, 1998 at 14:11:14:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: GM fishbowl question posted by Mark S Feinman on
    January 06, 1998 at 13:08:48:
    
    The side signs were changed by the operator, on the drivers side by
    leaning out his window, and on the curb side by either leaning out the
    rear door or out the window. Push buttons were on the side of the exit
    door mechanism housing. I have a sample of these signs, one from Ulmer
    Park, and another from Coliseum. Would loooovvvvee to find more.
    Anyone have any ideas???
    
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NEXT>7928
PREVIOUS>7925
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: "Older" Flxibles?
DATE>Jan 12 14:09:14 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 06, 1998 at 14:30:37:

   In Reply to: [8]"Older" Flxibles? posted by Timothy Speer on January
    06, 1998 at 13:51:19:
    
    Timothy,
    
    NYCTA had very few Flxibles from the 1960 & early 70's - in fact there
    were only two oders at the time. The first were 5600-5790 (1965) and
    they did not have Air Conditioning and they were never assigned to any
    MABSTOA depots. The second group is probably the ones you're referring
    to. They came around 1971 and they had A/C and they tended to be quite
    loud when accelerating. Their numbers were 4000-4202 (NYCTA) and
    4600-4727 (MABSTOA) . The one you rode was assigned to Hudson Depot
    and would've been between 4721 and 4727. These early Flxibles were
    different: Both were orignally green, the windows at the back was much
    larger than the later Flxibles, the exhaust pipe was under the bus
    unlike later Flxibles which had it near the top at the rear, yes, the
    lights at the back were slightly different - they had separate small
    tail lights beneath the brake lights however the marker lights were in
    the chrmoe ousing like the later Flxibles. When I say "later
    Flxibles", I am referring to the two later orders which were in 1975
    (7500-7659, NYCTA) & (7700-7928) and 1977 (9000-9159, NYCTA) &
    (9160-9309, MABSTOA). I hope this answers your question.
    
    
    
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NEXT>7930
PREVIOUS>7927
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: "Older" Flxibles?
DATE>Jan 12 14:09:17 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 06, 1998 at 14:37:43:

   In Reply to: [8]"Older" Flxibles? posted by Timothy Speer on January
    06, 1998 at 13:51:19:
    
    Sorry, I left out one group of flxibles. They came around 1972/3 and
    were numbered (7000-7204 NYCTA) & (7300-7340???)
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>John B. Bredin 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: "Mystery" Tunnels (Was: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall)
DATE>Jan 12 14:09:19 1998
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Posted by John B. Bredin on January 06, 1998 at 14:50:20:

   In Reply to: [8]Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!!
    (sorry Hank) posted by Lou from Brooklyn on January 06, 1998 at
    12:56:22:
    
    In Chicago, on the Dearborn Subway (Blue Line), there are two similar
    "mystery" portals, one visible as the southbound train completes the
    turn from the southwesterly direction onto the straight east-west into
    Lake Transfer station, the other visible on northbound trains as a
    continuation of the straightaway as the train makes the turn
    northwest. A crude diagram:
    \ \
    \ \
    \ _\____ __\_______ >
    
    The east-west portion is under Lake Street, and thus the Lake Street L
    (now Green Line). These very short tunnels were built as the subway
    was being built (194?-1953), as accomodation for future plans to bring
    the Lake Street trains underground and tear down the Loop L.
    Incidentally, if such a connection had been/were built, it would be
    possible to run all Chicago rapid transit trains in either the State
    or Dearborn Subway. (It wouldn't be advisable, though, as the traffic
    would be positively murderous!)
    
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NEXT>7932
PREVIOUS>7928
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: "Older" Flxibles?
DATE>Jan 12 14:09:21 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 06, 1998 at 15:10:05:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: "Older" Flxibles? posted by Wayne Johnson on
    January 06, 1998 at 14:30:37:
    
    Thanks very much -- that answers my question quite thoroughly.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7790
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 98 for the Department of buses
DATE>Jan 12 14:09:28 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 06, 1998 at 15:11:19:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: 98 for the Department of buses posted by Fernando
    Perez on January 03, 1998 at 23:48:57:
    
    I'm pretty sure the MCI over the road coaches the Frenando referred to
    are like those you see many Charter and Tour companies using. In the
    NYC area you'll see 45 foot MCI operating at Academy, Peter Pan,
    Suburban, Bonanza, Harran, Classic and others just to name a few. The
    model is 102DL3. The majority of MCI over the road coaches are 40 ft
    models which have several models which range from 96A2 up to 102C3.
    The New York Bus Service MCI's are suburban coaches. They are called
    "Classic" and MCI sold the Classic line as well as the RTS line to
    Nova BUS of Canada. If you need an explanation/description of these
    various models let me know and I'll post it.
    
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NEXT>7943
PREVIOUS>7930
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: "Older" Flxibles?
DATE>Jan 12 14:09:32 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 06, 1998 at 15:13:32:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: "Older" Flxibles? posted by Charles Fiori on
    January 06, 1998 at 14:08:04:
    
    The low 7000 series Flxibles with the rail down the middle were a
    trip! Those rails were ridiculous! We used to sit on them and make the
    driver's life miserable. I'm glad they took them out. How long did
    that take, anyway? It seems they didn't last long.
    
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NEXT>7935
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>NYCT Orion in New Jersey
DATE>Jan 12 14:09:38 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 06, 1998 at 15:59:52:

   This morning at approx 10 AM I was driving south on US Route 1/9 when
    I spotted NYCT Orion no. 621 heading northbound about 3 miles south of
    EWR. I know that some express buses from Yukon Depot operate through
    NJ en route to Midtown, but I'm pretty sure Orion V no. 621 is
    assigned to Castleton depot. I wonder what it wss doing there???
    
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NEXT>8350
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Frank 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Grand Central
DATE>Jan 12 14:09:42 1998
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Posted by Frank on January 06, 1998 at 16:07:57:

   Does anyone have expert knowledge about Grand Central Terminal?
    Know of any abandoned areas or tracks?
    If so, please post it.
    
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NEXT>7938
PREVIOUS>7933
POSTER>Lefty 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYCT Orion in New Jersey
DATE>Jan 12 14:09:47 1998
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Posted by Lefty on January 06, 1998 at 17:16:36:

   In Reply to: [8]NYCT Orion in New Jersey posted by Wayne Johnson on
    January 06, 1998 at 15:59:52:
    
    i once saw an NYCT RTS pulled over by an NJT cop on 95 south.. what
    was up with that.. i noticed it was one of the buses with a PA
    prefix.. but still, why was it there?
    
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NEXT>7937
PREVIOUS>7904
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
DATE>Jan 12 14:09:50 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 06, 1998 at 17:23:21:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page posted by
    Jason R. DeCesare on January 05, 1998 at 23:59:05:
    
    The Connecticut Company token did have a "C" in the center, although
    it was mistaken for a "U" many times. In fact, in Baltimore the local
    transit company continued to use the tokens from the previous
    operator, the United Railways and Electric Company. UR&E had 16
    million tokens minted between 1917 and 1922 and they stayed in use
    until this very day. In fact the MTA had new small tokens minted that
    said "Mass Transit Administration" on the obverse in 1992. The new
    Light Rail ticket machines refused the URE tokens, so the new ones
    were obtained. In July of 1992 the local MTA mechanics modified the
    ticket machines and the URE tokens (Which the MTA estimates about 9
    million are still in use) promptly went back in service. The MTA
    tokens went into storage and very few ever got into circulation.
    Tokens are used very little today, as day, weekly and monthly passes
    acount for almost 93% of fares.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7936
POSTER>Dan Lawrence 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page
DATE>Jan 12 14:09:52 1998
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on January 06, 1998 at 17:28:11:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Those Tokens at the Top of the Page posted by Dan
    Lawrence on January 06, 1998 at 17:23:21:
    
    I forgot to add that when tokens were widely used, ConnCo. tokens used
    to show up in our fareboxes (Johnson Type D regestering fareboxes)
    every once in a while. Very few ever were turned in, as the fnas and
    railfan operators (yes, we had them in the 40's, 50's and early 60's)
    usually replace them with on of there own URE tokens. The fareboxes
    didn't care, as Johnson Type D's sort and register coins/tokens by
    size.
    
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NEXT>7942
PREVIOUS>7935
POSTER>Joshua Caesar 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYCT Orion in New Jersey
DATE>Jan 12 14:09:55 1998
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Posted by Joshua Caesar on January 06, 1998 at 18:21:15:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCT Orion in New Jersey posted by Lefty on
    January 06, 1998 at 17:16:36:
    
    >
    
    What was it, a turf war??!! I wonder what the driver was really pulled
    over for, and why an NJT cop that did it. Ooh, wait, NJT as in NJ
    Transit or as in NJ Turnpike?
    
    Josh Caesar
    studlyjc@aol.com
    
    
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NEXT>7940
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Michael S. Buglak 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places
DATE>Jan 12 14:09:58 1998
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Posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 06, 1998 at 19:00:38:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCT Orion in New Jersey posted by Joshua Caesar
    on January 06, 1998 at 18:21:15:
    
    That reminds me of the time in September 1996 when I was traveling
    east on Interstate 88 near Binghamton, NY & saw a NYCT RTS heading
    westbound toward Albany on the back of a flatbed truck. The bus was
    too far away to read the fleet number, but I remember that the bus had
    the "Pac-Man" MTA logo & looked like it was brand-new...Hmmmm!
    Have any other SubTalkers had similar tales of strange buses in
    strange places? :)
    Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA (SEPTA Country!)
    
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NEXT>7945
PREVIOUS>7939
POSTER>John B. Bredin 
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SUBJECT>Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places
DATE>Jan 12 14:09:59 1998
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Posted by John B. Bredin on January 06, 1998 at 19:14:03:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places
    posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 06, 1998 at 19:00:38:
    
    I once saw a white and blue MTA bus going eastbound (inbound) on the
    Kennedy Expressway in Chicago, and I did a double take, to say the
    least.
    
    But two days later, when I was downtown, I saw that they were filming
    a movie in front of the Board of Trade in Jackson Boulevard, but with
    the building and street signs covered over and the whole intersection
    made up like a downtown Manhattan street -- and there was the MTA bus
    (or at least a bus marked like one, anyway), parked in front of the
    Federal Reserve Bank. The extras told me they had a mockup newsstand
    and entrance to a NYC subawy station about a block west, but with the
    filming blocking my way, I didn't want to go that far out of my way.
    Note that one block west of the Board of Trade is Wells Street, and
    the L. I wonder if they had to "white it out" of the movie, as it was
    clearly visible from the perspective they were filming from.
    
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NEXT>7944
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
DATE>Jan 12 14:10:08 1998
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Posted by Timothy on January 06, 1998 at 19:40:05:

   I can remember when SEPTA used both GM Fishbowls, and Flxibles on
    their
    bus routes, and both had a very striking resemblance of each other. If
    I
    remember correctly, the GM buses were from the early/mid 1960's, and
    the
    Flxibles were from the early 1970's. Both had the same side windows,
    and
    almost the same body. Did Flxible get the design for their older buses
    from GM? Also, Are any of those buses still in service today? All I
    see
    now, are Neoplans, and the new Flxibles. Thanks.
    
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NEXT>7956
PREVIOUS>7938
POSTER>Lefty 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYCT Orion in New Jersey
DATE>Jan 12 14:10:16 1998
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Posted by Lefty on January 06, 1998 at 20:18:40:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCT Orion in New Jersey posted by Joshua Caesar
    on January 06, 1998 at 18:21:15:
    
    same kinda cop that pulls us over for speeding.. guess turnpike.. i
    dunno the official name of those bastards..
    
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NEXT>7946
PREVIOUS>7932
POSTER>Jeffrey from Brooklyn 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: "Older" Flxibles?
DATE>Jan 12 14:10:19 1998
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Posted by Jeffrey from Brooklyn on January 06, 1998 at 20:20:12:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: "Older" Flxibles? posted by Timothy Speer on
    January 06, 1998 at 15:13:32:
    
    Although I was a child at the time, I remember these buses had a
    terrific vertical pole with I think three projecting poles which
    allowed many more people to hang on to. I think it was connected to
    the railing, but I'm not sure if it was at the end or the middle of
    the railing. When the railing was removed, that odd but interesting
    pole disappeared with it. I thought the railing was nonessential, but
    too bad they didn't keep the poles. What a pity!
    
    
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NEXT>7949
PREVIOUS>7941
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
DATE>Jan 12 14:10:26 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 06, 1998 at 20:33:17:

   In Reply to: [8]GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
    posted by Timothy on January 06, 1998 at 19:40:05:
    
    The windows were slightly different and there were other minor
    differences. I believe GM first developed the "fishbowl" idea and
    Flxible came second, although the Flxible front end came from a
    variation of its partner's (Twin Coach) design which first appeared on
    buses in the postwar 40's. The Flxible side windows had been used on
    its Clipper intercity bus dating to about the same time period.
    
    All of SEPTA's fishbowls are retired. One Flxible, 6569, has been
    saved and is in the "museum" fleet. A couple of GM's were being used
    as crew buses for track gangs on the Suburban side (4300 was one of
    them) but I'm not sure if they are still around. An RTS 35-footer,
    4459, was converted for the same purpose for the City side.
    
    SEPTA has no Flxibles on its current roster. Augmenting the nearly
    1000 Neoplans are 400 Ikarus buses (the newest buses), 50 Volvo
    articulateds and 1 Volvo 40-footer.
    
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NEXT>7959
PREVIOUS>7940
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places
DATE>Jan 12 14:10:30 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 06, 1998 at 20:38:20:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places
    posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 06, 1998 at 19:00:38:
    
    Flashback time! I had reported at the time that I saw NYCT RTS 8397
    going westbound on I-70 on a flatbed in central Illinois last August.
    Also, several older RTS's had been parked at an outfit called AGS on
    Route 30 in Camden/Pennsauken NJ (near the Airport Circle) for quite
    some time. About the middle of last month they were all gone. Must
    have been reconditioned and sold.
    
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NEXT>7950
PREVIOUS>7943
POSTER>Bobw 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: "Older" Flxibles?
DATE>Jan 12 14:10:33 1998
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Posted by Bobw on January 06, 1998 at 20:43:39:

   In Reply to: [8]"Older" Flxibles? posted by Timothy Speer on January
    06, 1998 at 13:51:19:
    
    One of the 5600 group has been saved and is part of the historic
    fleet. It remains in its TA green. I believe a 4000 is also part of
    the saved fleet.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Ex? AC transit bus in tacoma wa (was:Re: NYCT(& Other Transit) Buses In
DATE>Jan 12 14:10:37 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places
    posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 06, 1998 at 19:00:38:
    
    speaking of strange places for buses On SR 509 at tacoma boatbuilding
    there is an Ex? AC transit Flyer D-900(western flyer??). its no# 1153.
    and its been there for a while and i figure it will be there for a
    little while longer.
    
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NEXT>8012
PREVIOUS>7800
POSTER>Nathan 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO
DATE>Jan 12 14:10:42 1998
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Posted by Nathan on January 06, 1998 at 21:25:52:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: SHEPPARD STREET SUBWAY, TORONTO posted by Brian
    Wolk on January 04, 1998 at 15:19:59:
    
    I heard that the trains on the Sheppard Subway are going to consist of
    four
    cars (opposed to the standard six) until traffic rises to warrant 6
    car trains. Is that true?
    
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NEXT>7962
PREVIOUS>7944
POSTER>Joe M 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
DATE>Jan 12 14:10:48 1998
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Posted by Joe M on January 06, 1998 at 21:48:14:

   In Reply to: [7]GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
    posted by Timothy on January 06, 1998 at 19:40:05:
    
    
    The GMC and Flex New looks were also amost identical mechanically.
    Many Engine Transmissions, suspension parts etc were interchangable.
    Part number crossover charts were common in most shops. Also many
    third party aftermarket parts were available.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7946
POSTER>Mike B 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: "Older" Flxibles?
DATE>Jan 12 14:10:53 1998
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Posted by Mike B on January 06, 1998 at 22:25:29:

   In Reply to: [8]"Older" Flxibles? posted by Timothy Speer on January
    06, 1998 at 13:51:19:
    
    I remember 3 versions of the old Flxibles.
    #1 These had no Air-Conditioning. I remember growing up riding/seeing
    these in the '60's on certain routes in Brooklyn like the B-17, B-42
    and B-49.
    #2 These looked like the original Flxibles but had Air-Conditioning.
    #3 These had Air-Conditioning and an oval rear window (escape hatch.)
    They also had no "shaded strip" above the side windows.
    
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NEXT>7952
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>GarfieldA 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Station Camera's
DATE>Jan 12 14:10:55 1998
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Posted by GarfieldA on January 06, 1998 at 23:11:22:

   I've noticed a camera or two along with some monitors or screens at
    alot of stations. Does anyone know if it's for security reasons or
    whatever ???
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7951
POSTER>Frank 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Station Camera's
DATE>Jan 12 14:10:58 1998
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Posted by Frank on January 06, 1998 at 23:13:57:

   In Reply to: [7]Station Camera's posted by GarfieldA on January 06,
    1998 at 23:11:22:
    
    Those cameras are used for conductors, so they can look around curves
    and safely close the doors.
    
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NEXT>7977
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Fernando Perez 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 98 for the Department of buses MCI ada comp? for Wayne
DATE>Jan 12 14:11:00 1998
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Posted by Fernando Perez on January 06, 1998 at 23:46:11:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: 98 for the Department of buses posted by Wayne
    Johnson on January 06, 1998 at 15:11:19:
    
    Wayne, are these over the road equipment ada equiped, wheelchair and
    kneller? I believe I read on a web page for MCI that they make them
    so, but Im not familiar with over the road equipment to much.
    
    
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NEXT>7978
PREVIOUS>7853
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station,
DATE>Jan 12 14:11:03 1998
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   In Reply to: [8]Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the
    City Hall Station, Anyway? posted by Bobw on January 03, 1998 at
    00:33:24:
    
    You wrote/Vous écrivit:
    > If the "walls" disappear, City Hall, the largest free-standing
    > (no steel reinforcement) structure in the Western Hemisphere,
    disappears
    > too.
    
    Hmm, last time I checked the world's tallest free standing structure
    was the CN Tower (la tour CN) in Toronto.
    
    -Jason
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7859
POSTER>Al 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Steinway Street (was Re: Update re 18th Street IRT station entrance)
DATE>Jan 12 14:11:08 1998
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Posted by Al on January 07, 1998 at 02:30:52:

   In Reply to: [7]Steinway Street (was Re: Update re 18th Street IRT
    station entrance) posted by Adam on January 05, 1998 at 17:14:22:
    
    About that entrance in front of the Salvation Army. The entrance I
    believe was closed off about a year ago, because of a truck accident
    that ocurred there. I believe a truck crashed into the Salvation Army
    Thrift Store in what I think was the month of February. Noone was hurt
    because it happened early in the morning (middle of the night). I not
    positive about this info.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7942
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYCT Orion in New Jersey
DATE>Jan 12 14:11:12 1998
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on January 07, 1998 at 06:33:17:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCT Orion in New Jersey posted by Joshua Caesar
    on January 06, 1998 at 18:21:15:
    
    OK, first, The turnpike has it's own State Trooper Division, and the
    only 'highway police' in NJ, besides State and Local cops, is the Port
    Authority PD, and the Palisaides Interstate Pkwy Police.
    As for what an NYCT Orion was doing on Rt1/9 in Newark:
    Warranty Engine Work. Detroit Diesel's nearest facility to nYC is in
    Newark. It is not uncommon to come across the Goethals Bridge and see
    5 or 6 NYCT buses coming back from Jersey around 4pm. Not all of them
    are from SI depots, either, they send all Brooklyn,, Queens, and SI
    buses via Goethals. Manhattan and Bronx buses go a different way.
    Never seen them, so I don't know. Detroit's facility in Newark can be
    FULL of NYCT buses.
    -Hank
    
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NEXT>7973
PREVIOUS>7921
POSTER>Hank Eisenstein 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! (sorry Hank)
DATE>Jan 12 14:11:14 1998
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on January 07, 1998 at 06:40:13:

   In Reply to: [8]Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!!
    (sorry Hank) posted by Lou from Brooklyn on January 06, 1998 at
    12:56:22:
    
    Never said the cuts for it weren't there. And there are dozens of
    other little 'extentions' like this all over the system, like 59st
    Brooklyn, several locations along Queens Blvd, and along the G line in
    Bklyn. But that's all there is on the Manhattan side. According to
    some local legend, there is approximately 250' of tunnel under the St.
    George ferry terminal.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7861
POSTER>FRED WELLMAN 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 4 track lines in Boston?
DATE>Jan 12 14:11:16 1998
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Posted by FRED WELLMAN on January 07, 1998 at 06:51:46:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: 4 track lines in Boston? posted by Carl M. Rabbin
    on January 05, 1998 at 17:22:13:
    
    Around 1981-83 the federal goverment insisted the T use the express
    lines on the Orange line north or repay the cost of construction. What
    happened after that I have no idea. Although I lived in Boston for 5
    years I never took the Orange line past Charleston.
    
    
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NEXT>8102
PREVIOUS>7945
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places
DATE>Jan 12 14:11:18 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 07, 1998 at 07:38:39:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places
    posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 06, 1998 at 19:00:38:
    
    This is a repeat of a thread that hit up some months ago...I saw an
    artic going southbound on I-294 west of Chicago, near the I-88
    junction. No one seemed to know why it would be out here. I think the
    thread at that time dealt with "longest one-way rides."
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Michael S. Buglak 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Correction To Above NYCT Bus Post
DATE>Jan 12 14:11:20 1998
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Posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 07, 1998 at 08:18:26:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: NYCT (& Other Transit) Buses In Strange Places
    posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 06, 1998 at 19:00:38:
    
    I got the directions on I-88 mixed up! What I meant was that the RTS
    was headed EAST toward Albany, not west! Sorry for any
    confusion...Michael S. Buglak
    
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NEXT>7989
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Timothy Speer 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Rail to wheel flange clearances (Repost)
DATE>Jan 12 14:11:23 1998
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Posted by Timothy Speer on January 07, 1998 at 08:20:26:

   How close are the flanges of train wheels supposed to be to the inner
    edge of the rails? I assume it is different on a straightaway as
    opposed to on a curve,
    but I'd like some idea what the official tolerances are. Is it the
    same for all rail systems? ...or is it different on LRV systems, for
    example?
    
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NEXT>7966
PREVIOUS>7949
POSTER>Michael S. Buglak 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
DATE>Jan 12 14:11:28 1998
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Posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 07, 1998 at 08:27:47:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close
    Resemblance posted by Bobw on January 06, 1998 at 20:33:17:
    
    The easiest way for me to tell GM Fishbowls & "New Look" Flxibles
    apart was always to look at the front of the bus. The windshield on a
    Flxible is 6 pieces of relatively straight glass. Also, there are
    vents on either side of the front destination sign. On the other hand,
    a GM Fishbowl has 4 pieces of curved glass in the windshield & no
    vents on the sides of the front sign.
    
    As Bobw mentions in his post, SEPTA has (& never has had) any newer
    Flxibles (870/Metro's). However, SEPTA's Transit Museum store has a
    model Flxible in SEPTA colors (this is the Road Champs model which is
    also made in NYCT & NJT versions,among others!) Go figure!
    
    Michael S. Buglak, Collegeville, PA
    
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NEXT>7964
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Tim Hall 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Leaves on the line
DATE>Jan 12 14:11:31 1998
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Posted by Tim Hall on January 07, 1998 at 08:32:21:

   Does the NYC subway suffer from problems caused by falling leaves on
    open-air sections during October/November?
    
    This causes rail adhesion problems with the London Underground, which
    is even worse on many commuter rail lines, leading to "Leaves On The
    Line" becoming a standing joke with many commuters.
    
    If open-air NYC lines suffer from similar problems with falling
    leaves, what do they do about it?
    
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NEXT>7976
PREVIOUS>7963
POSTER>Todd Glickman 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Leaves on the line
DATE>Jan 12 14:11:33 1998
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Posted by Todd Glickman on January 07, 1998 at 08:41:07:

   In Reply to: [8]Leaves on the line posted by Tim Hall on January 07,
    1998 at 08:32:21:
    
    Yes, the Brighton Line is one place where leaves are a problem. I
    entered a post the day after Thanksgiving on SubTalk entitled
    "Overshoot", as an R-40S "Q" I was riding went BIE and then overshot
    the Prospect Park station due to damp, crushed leaves on the rails.
    
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NEXT>8152
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Nassau Loop Service in the 30s
DATE>Jan 12 14:11:36 1998
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Posted by Ben-Zion Y. Cassouto on January 07, 1998 at 08:48:01:

   Does anyone have definite info to indicate that there was Nassau Loop
    shortline rush-hour service in the 1930s on the Sea Beach line.
    
    It seems from all the ERA and other sources, that the publicized
    established Nassau Loop services were only on West End and Culver
    lines (in opposite directions BTW).
    
    There were also 3 special runs from Brighton via Bridge and back via
    tunnel over Culver.
    
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NEXT>7969
PREVIOUS>7962
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
DATE>Jan 12 14:11:39 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 07, 1998 at 09:11:54:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close
    Resemblance posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 07, 1998 at
    08:27:47:
    
    Mike, where is Septa's store? Do they have a web page? Phone no.?
    Catalogue?
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7920
POSTER>Alan Follett 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Chicago fare agents (was: Re: Toekn Booth Clerks)
DATE>Jan 12 14:11:42 1998
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Posted by Alan Follett on January 07, 1998 at 10:24:20:

   In Reply to: [8]Chicago fare agents (was: Re: Toekn Booth Clerks)
    posted by John B. Bredin on January 06, 1998 at 10:38:04:
    
    Of course, bending over backwards to give our family befuddled
    turistas the benefit of the doubt, their question could mean, "Does
    that airplane symbol mean that this is the line to O'Hare, or to
    Midway?"
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Michael S. Buglak 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>SEPTA's Transit Museum Store
DATE>Jan 12 14:11:44 1998
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Posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 07, 1998 at 10:25:33:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close
    Resemblance posted by Charles Fiori on January 07, 1998 at 09:11:54:
    
    SEPTA's Transit Museum Store is located at SEPTA Headquarters at 1234
    Market Street, Philadelphia, PA 19107. Phone (215) 580-7168. They do
    not have a catalogue or their own website. (SEPTA's website is
    www.septa.org)
    AFAIK, the model Flxible in SEPTA colors is only sold at that store.
    Michael S. Buglak
    
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NEXT>8003
PREVIOUS>7966
POSTER>Timothy 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close Resemblance
DATE>Jan 12 14:11:46 1998
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Posted by Timothy on January 07, 1998 at 10:27:54:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: GM Fishbowls, And Older Flxibles - Close
    Resemblance posted by Michael S. Buglak on January 07, 1998 at
    08:27:47:
    
    I do have one of the Road Champs SEPTA models. I think the reason the
    model is of a Flxible bus, even though SEPTA currently has no
    Flxibles, is
    probably because of the close resemblance to a Neoplan bus, which
    currently
    makes up a very large part of SEPTA's fleet. I also have CTA, NJT, and
    NYCT versions of the Road Champs bus models, as well as a Corgi PTC GM
    fishbowl bus, which is also sold at SEPTA's Transit Museum Store.
    
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NEXT>7971
PREVIOUS>7766
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
DATE>Jan 12 14:11:48 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 07, 1998 at 10:50:41:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46 posted by
    David Pirmann on January 02, 1998 at 15:42:58:
    
    Dave,
    
    Unfortunately, I never rode or saw the SOAC cars when they were in New
    York as I was very young and we only used IRT routes at the time, but
    in reference to their appearance - I think they look more like R-44/46
    than the R-42.
    
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NEXT>7972
PREVIOUS>7970
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
DATE>Jan 12 14:11:50 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 07, 1998 at 10:56:38:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46 posted by
    Mark M. Oring on January 03, 1998 at 16:20:39:
    
    Mark,
    
    The R-36's are not the oldest yet. The R-26 still hold that title, but
    the R-36 are probably in worst shape these days.
    
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NEXT>7982
PREVIOUS>7971
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
DATE>Jan 12 14:11:54 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 07, 1998 at 10:57:01:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46 posted by
    Mark M. Oring on January 03, 1998 at 16:20:39:
    
    Mark,
    
    The R-36's are not the oldest yet. The R-26 still holds that title,
    but the R-36 are probably in worst shape these days.
    
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NEXT>7974
PREVIOUS>7957
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! (sorry Hank)
DATE>Jan 12 14:11:58 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 07, 1998 at 11:36:33:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW
    IT!! (sorry Hank) posted by Hank Eisenstein on January 07, 1998 at
    06:40:13:
    
    In Stan Fischler's new book _The Subway_, he says that some
    exploratory tunnelling was done in both Staten Island and Brooklyn in
    the mid-1920s as part of the abortive link between the boroughs. The
    tunnelling in Brooklyn, off what's now the R line, is well known, but
    this is the first reference I've seen to actual tunnelling work in
    Staten Island. So that legend about a tunnel under St. George may have
    some basis in fact.
    Actually, as much as I've been enjoying the book, I'm still a bit
    skeptical about some of the statements in it. As part of this tunnel
    episode, Stan Fischler mentions the story about how Mayor Hyland bore
    a grudge against the BRT after having been fired as a motorman. The
    veracity of that story is quite definitely in doubt, yet it's
    recounted as fact.
    
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NEXT>7975
PREVIOUS>7973
POSTER>Mark Goldey 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! (sorry Hank)
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:02 1998
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Posted by Mark Goldey on January 07, 1998 at 13:12:10:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW
    IT!! (sorry Hank) posted by Peter Rosa on January 07, 1998 at
    11:36:33:
    
    Tunnelling began to connect Brooklyn with Staten Island from both
    sides. The site of the tunnels is approximately where the Verrazano
    Narrows brigdge is now located. The Staten Island side never went far;
    Brookyln went much further.
    
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NEXT>8106
PREVIOUS>7974
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW IT!! (sorry Hank)
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:04 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 07, 1998 at 13:32:19:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Tunnel to Staten Island South of Whitehall I SAW
    IT!! (sorry Hank) posted by Mark Goldey on January 07, 1998 at
    13:12:10:
    
    Thanks for the information. Being that the Staten Island-side
    tunnelling was near the current bridge site, it obviously wouldn't
    account for the rumored tunnel under the ferry terminal.
    
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NEXT>7979
PREVIOUS>7964
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Leaves on the line
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:06 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 07, 1998 at 14:29:53:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Leaves on the line posted by Todd Glickman on
    January 07, 1998 at 08:41:07:
    
    That reminds me of a question I asked once when I used to hear the
    same train out of Dover Plains (pre-electrification) being late every
    day. I asked an acquaintance at Metro-North why and he said "Leaves on
    the tracks."
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7953
POSTER>Wayne Johnson 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: 98 for the Department of buses MCI ada comp? for Wayne
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:08 1998
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Posted by Wayne Johnson on January 07, 1998 at 15:22:35:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: 98 for the Department of buses MCI ada comp? for
    Wayne posted by Fernando Perez on January 06, 1998 at 23:46:11:
    
    Yes Fernando,
    
    You're right. MCI will add wheelchair lifts and the kneeling feature.
    What I don't know is if the ADA is satisfied. The wheelchair lifts are
    very rare, but I know that DART in Dallas has MCI's with wheelchair
    lifts and kneeling. Unfortunately, the wheelchair lifts are not built
    into the front door. It has separate entrance on the side, similar to
    school buses. In NYC area there are some MCI's are in suburban
    configuration meaning they have no restroom, in some cases 53 seats,
    kneeling and an air-operated two piece door, as opposed to the
    standard one piece manual door. Other than two new MCI 102D3 (40
    footers) being tested by NJT I don't know of any in the NYC area that
    have wheelchair lifts. NJT's MC-9 "Jersey Cruisers" and Westchester
    County's Bee Line MCI 102A2's both have the kneeling feature, but no
    wheelchair lifts. Keep in mind that they're many MCI non-suburban
    buses providing commuter and charter service in the NY/NJ area. When
    you see an MCI coach - more than likely it will bw a non-suburban
    model.
    
    Some MCI Classics operated by the DOT companies have lifts in the
    front door. All have kneeling. It's basically a transit bus.
    
    
    
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NEXT>8018
PREVIOUS>7954
POSTER>
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the City Hall Station,
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:11 1998
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   In Reply to: [7]Re: SEPTA's Broad St Subway: What's Wrong with the
    City Hall Station, Anyway? posted by Jason R. DeCesare on January 07,
    1998 at 01:04:02:
    
    The key in that statement is STEEL reinforcement. Philly's city hall
    is brick upon brick - la tour CN has a steel skeleton (source: video
    shown in the lower lever of the observation deck) throughout the
    structure.
    
    However, CN is a much more interesting structure! (But city hall has
    more historical value)
    
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NEXT>8028
PREVIOUS>7976
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Leaves on the line
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:13 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 07, 1998 at 19:49:56:

   In Reply to: [8]Leaves on the line posted by Tim Hall on January 07,
    1998 at 08:32:21:
    
    Suffer doesn't begin to describe it. During the fall, the number of
    cars I true wheels on more than doubles. While most of the cars I cut
    are from the D line, I do many cars from the #4 line (Bedford Park
    Station has a leaf problem) and I also pick up the overflow from the A
    line (Aquaduct Station).
    
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NEXT>8148
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Mellow One 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>NY Transit Memories
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:15 1998
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Posted by Mellow One on January 07, 1998 at 20:39:00:

   I have just purchased New York Transit Memories by Harold A. Smith.
    This pictorial book contains a great collection of unpublished photos
    of bygone transit and traction scene in all 5 boroughs.
    
    In reference to "Updown, Downtown', I am in the picture of the IRT
    Low-V at the 180th St. station on the 3rd Ave El.
    
    I have set up a Bronx transit nostagial page at
    http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/1346.
    
    Happy New Year to everyone.
    Thank you NYC.Subway.org for your great efforts.
    
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NEXT>8023
PREVIOUS>7893
POSTER>Zack 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:17 1998
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Posted by Zack on January 07, 1998 at 22:07:43:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Universal Accessability & the Surplus posted by
    Adam on January 03, 1998 at 21:57:09:
    
    How would the "handicapped" pay the fares and other aspects. but is is
    a good idea but where will the wheelchair space in the cars be?? and
    wont the statieons have to be gutted anbd expanded for the extra room
    needed for the chairs and what about the cars?? it all = $$$$$$$
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7972
POSTER>Steve 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:19 1998
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Posted by Steve on January 07, 1998 at 22:56:30:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
    posted by Wayne Johnson on January 07, 1998 at 10:57:01:
    
    Physically, the R-36s are in poor shape but they still performed with
    an MDBF of approximately 200,000 miles in the month of December.
    
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NEXT>7996
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Michael B. 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>exterior subway "MTA" placards-
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:21 1998
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Posted by Michael B. on January 08, 1998 at 00:14:00:

   I'm sure that others have noticed the new MTA decals that are slowly
    covering up the old TA logo on the subways. On these trains, the
    depressions on the old placard still "shows through" to the new one.
    It looks pretty shoddy. Does anyone know why the MTA just didn't flip
    over the disk shaped placards and adhere the new decal to the fresh
    side?
    
    -Michael
    
    
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NEXT>8024
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: R-36 Performance
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:22 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 08, 1998 at 07:50:59:

   In Reply to: [7]Re: Re: LIRR,MNRR M-1 type design and R-44, R-46
    posted by Steve on January 07, 1998 at 22:56:30:
    
    Remember when back in the very early 1980s, the R36s were the stars of
    the fleet. I believe their MDBF was something around 30,000mi.
    
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NEXT>7986
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Charles Fiori 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived!
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:24 1998
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Posted by Charles Fiori on January 08, 1998 at 08:03:36:

   Today's NY Daily News has an article on a new phenomenon in NY, where
    people are somehow swiping expired Metrocards to gain entry to the
    system.
    
    [8]Hundreds are Swiping Rides Reusing Expired Subway Cards
    
    
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NEXT>7988
PREVIOUS>7985
POSTER>Subman23 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived!
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:26 1998
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Posted by Subman23 on January 08, 1998 at 09:39:12:

   In Reply to: [8]Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived! posted by
    Charles Fiori on January 08, 1998 at 08:03:36:
    
    Yes, it is true. People (homeless- believe it or not) have found a way
    to manipulate discarded "Metrocards" so that unlimited rides can be
    placed onto the card.
    Often, these "business minded" homeless people will collect dollars
    from passengers and swipe them through the turnstile.
    
    I would guess that this problem is more widespread than MTA officials
    admit to it being. Ifirst learned about this activity a month ago but
    kept my mouth shut. Unlike the Daily News, I did not want to further
    encourage this activity.
    
    It is sad but I guess that Cubic Corp will make a few hundred million
    dollars more selling hardware/software to the MTA so that this problem
    can be remedied.
    
    Gov. Pataki wasn't kidding when he announced free rides.
    
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NEXT>7990
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Lou from Middletown 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>July,1,1998
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:28 1998
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Posted by Lou from Middletown on January 08, 1998 at 09:56:36:

   Thought everybody would like to know that July 1 is the official start
    date for the monthly/weekly/daily MetroCards. I was talking to a TA
    bus driver, and he said that this was the official start-up date. He
    said that they wanted to start the new system up when there wasn't a
    full load of regular commuters using the system.Of course there will
    be a full load of tourists around, which is probably worse!!! Anyway,
    I know I can't wait to plunk $4 down, and say "give me a daypass"!!
    
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NEXT>7992
PREVIOUS>7986
POSTER>Larry Littlefield 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived!
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:30 1998
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Posted by Larry Littlefield on January 08, 1998 at 10:32:53:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived! posted
    by Subman23 on January 08, 1998 at 09:39:12:
    
    Every business faces "shrinkage," and every business faces the same
    dillema: measures which reduce theft reduce convenience for legitimate
    customers, while measures which increase convenience enable theft.
    Businesses "manage" this tradeoff more or less successfully, and the
    MTA will have to do the same. If the problem is small enough, catching
    some of the crooks some of the time (to deter widespread fraud by
    people who, unlike the homeless, have something to lose by being
    caught) might be enough.
    
    The Metrocard has helped, I'm sure, in one way. The sole purpose of
    the Franklin Avenue shuttle was to allow people to jump up to the
    platform and avoid the fare, then get a transfer slip to board the
    "A/C" and enter the general system. But now, if the MTA is requiring
    Metrocard for the free transfer, that won't work -- you have to pay
    somewhere. Are they still giving out the slips?
    
    
    
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NEXT>8113
PREVIOUS>7961
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
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SUBJECT>Re: Rail to wheel flange clearances (Repost)
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:32 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 08, 1998 at 10:36:14:

   In Reply to: [8]Rail to wheel flange clearances (Repost) posted by
    Timothy Speer on January 07, 1998 at 08:20:26:
    
    The 1989 book _Subway Lives_ had a brief discussion about subway wheel
    tolerances. I don't remember that much about it, but I do recall that
    the TA has detailed requirements regarding acceptable tolerances.
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>7987
POSTER>David Pirmann 
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SUBJECT>Re: July,1,1998
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:35 1998
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Posted by David Pirmann on January 08, 1998 at 10:37:51:

   In Reply to: [8]July,1,1998 posted by Lou from Middletown on January
    08, 1998 at 09:56:36:
    
    The daypass will be good for us railfans as well. There have been
    times where I thought it would be cool to take a picture from outside
    the station but it wasn't worth $1.50 to keep getting off and on. This
    will be a benefit in that case.
    
    Seriously, IMHO it's about time they did this. Having been to cities
    like London, Paris, San Francisco, where they have integrated weekly
    passes makes getting around the city by transit much more convenient
    both in terms of pure tourism and also railfanning.
    
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NEXT>7997
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Peter Rosa 
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SUBJECT>Barricades coming down
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:37 1998
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Posted by Peter Rosa on January 08, 1998 at 10:42:30:

   WCBS radio has reported that those idiotic pedestrian barricades in
    Midtown are coming down next Monday. Apparently, the city has realized
    that its experiment in improving traffic flow was a big flop.
    
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NEXT>7994
PREVIOUS>7988
POSTER>newsman 
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SUBJECT>Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived!
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:38 1998
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Posted by newsman on January 08, 1998 at 10:55:27:

   In Reply to: [7]Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived! posted by
    Charles Fiori on January 08, 1998 at 08:03:36:
    
    WCBS Bookstore
    
    Sports | Weather
    
    
    TOP STORIES
    
    From
    NEWSRADIO 88
    News, Weather & Sports
    
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    --
    
    
    Top Stories for Thursday, January 8, 1998
    
    Cheaters Get Free Rides From MetroCards
    There's a whole new breed of farebeaters out there. They're swiping
    their way onto the subway without paying the price.
    
    
    Riders with the ultimate discount fare in mind have found a way to
    take
    a MetroCard with no money on it and turn it into a free ride pass.
    
    People have figured out how to alter a blank metro card so that the
    system reads it as having value when it doesn't. Some people have used
    
    technique to get free rides while others sell rides with it.
    
    The MTA says this type of farebeating has been going on for some time
    but it doesn't know how big its losses are.
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Tim Hall 
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SUBJECT>Four tracks in London
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:40 1998
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Posted by Tim Hall on January 08, 1998 at 11:03:12:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Broad Street and other 4 track lines posted by
    Andrew Byler on January 02, 1998 at 14:52:37:
    
    In addition to the two examples mentioned, there are one or two other
    four-track sections on the London Underground: The Metropolitan line
    b/w Wembley Park and Rickmansworth is quadruple, shared with
    Chiltern's (diesel) commuter rail trains. Note that this isn't a case
    of parallel tube and commuter tracks: all four tracks are electrified
    and used by LUL services.
    
    There are also four tracks on the Picadilly line b/w Acton Town and
    Northfields, although the eastbound slow line is used as a test track
    for Acton Works.
    
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NEXT>7995
PREVIOUS>7992
POSTER>Nick 
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SUBJECT>Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived!
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:42 1998
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Posted by Nick on January 08, 1998 at 11:23:49:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived! posted
    by Larry Littlefield on January 08, 1998 at 10:32:53:
    
    Luckily the MTA finds out within 24 hours about each scamming
    metrocard, when the computers show lost fares. The MTA can then cancel
    each of the scammed metrocards. Unfortunatly, a lot of free rides can
    be taken during that 24 hour period.-Nick
    
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NEXT>8014
PREVIOUS>7994
POSTER>Adam 
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SUBJECT>Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived!
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:44 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 08, 1998 at 11:50:18:

   In Reply to: [8]Re: Cyber-slugs or Metrocard fraud has arrived! posted
    by Nick on January 08, 1998 at 11:23:49:
    
    I saw this story on the 11:00 Channel 2 news last night and I was
    shocked! Actually, I don't think there's any special method to doing
    this. The news reporter just picked up some used MetroCards from the
    ground and swiped them a few times until they worked. He got 4 free
    rides off of one of the cards. The TA realized there was a problem
    when the computer showed "negative balances" on some MetroCards.
    
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NEXT>8002
PREVIOUS>7983
POSTER>Adam 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Re: exterior subway "MTA" placards-
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:46 1998
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Posted by Adam on January 08, 1998 at 11:58:44:

   In Reply to: [8]exterior subway "MTA" placards- posted by Michael B.
    on January 08, 1998 at 00:14:00:
    
    Or better yet, why did they "cheap out" with decals and not get
    entirely new placards? While the stickers seem like a good idea now,
    what happens when they start peeling? But, I really do like the new
    MTA logo so it's nice to begin to see it on the subway. I think that
    all the buses have it already.
    
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NEXT>8077
PREVIOUS>7991
POSTER>Gary Gordon 
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SUBJECT>Re: Barricades coming down
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:47 1998
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Posted by Gary Gordon on January 08, 1998 at 12:42:01:

   In Reply to: [8]Barricades coming down posted by Peter Rosa on January
    08, 1998 at 10:42:30:
    
    I was driven in to the city yesterday to do some volunteer work at the
    Intrepid. The pedestrians were most oblivious to the flow of traffic
    and signals. It would appear that the plan,while poorly executed has
    some merit.
    
    So there is my first post. Hello.
    
    
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NEXT>8009
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>Gary Gordon 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>Transit board
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:49 1998
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Posted by Gary Gordon on January 08, 1998 at 12:47:05:

   Is there a specific place for transit workers to post. I'm looking for
    input regarding certain jobs. Pros and cons of certain titles and
    their duties.
    
    I like what I see here and I have definite views about the conditions
    and
    policies I find in the subway workplace.
    
    I'm in signals seeking motormen/women.
    
    
    
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NEXT>
PREVIOUS>0
POSTER>DB 
EMAIL>
SUBJECT>SEPTA Question (the MFL and Trolleys)
DATE>Jan 12 14:12:51 1998
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Posted by DB on January 08, 1998 at 13:32:14:

   Was the subway-portion of the MFL (Market Frankfort Line/Blue Line)
    always proposed? Or was it a method of conencting the Frankfort and
    Market Els? It seems to me like there was not a lot of planning put
    into the system. Consider the face that viewable sinage is practially
    non-existant (The M-4's are nice with the electronic sinage, but I
    have only ridden that train once)and the stations are at odd
    intervals.
    
    Lets consider the subway portion of the system. Stations are at 34,
    30, nothing through 15, then at 13, 11, 8, 5, and 2. It seems far too
    close together, the train speeds up and then stops again. I had heard
    from another person that the idea was the green line subway/surface
    system was going to povide "local" service to several stops via the
    MFL subway, but money ran out at 13th/Juniper street. Is there any
    truth to this?
    
    Sinage needs improvement all around the entire system.
    
    Finally, their skip stop A/B train system should be re-worked. If you
    look at the Westbound portion of your trip, you skip maybe two
    stations on either train, and you never know what platform is an "A"
    or a "B".
    
    Can anyone help?
    
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