Yesterday while traveling on Broadway (Brooklyn) I saw a 3 inch by 1 inch red stripe on the front of the bus directly above the passenger side headlights.
I saw it on 5020 and two others (one I believe was a 52XX and another 50XX).
They were only on these three buses. It represents perhaps 10 - 15% of the buses I saw. Anyone know what it represents ?
It's only on E.N.Y.depot 4900,5000 and 5200 series buses. I don't know what it represents.
It seems that the 1998 and 1999 RTS's out of ENY depot have them. It looks like Im going have to take a 3 stop ride to the depot and find out what is that about.
B12#4987Mike
B83#5221Mike
Q24#5001Mike
these buses have begun to arrive at detroit diesel in lodi. yukon is to get 18-22 buses for x21/x22 service which is supposed to start in late june. the balance of the 48-52 buses should go to castleton and ulmer park. effective april 1 nyct intends to have all mci expresses at castleton. they presently use about 30 orions. where these buses will go is anyones guess.
Start your engines folks!! The express bus transfer marathon looks like its about to begin once again!
Shaun
I would be shocked if the Castleton Orion express coaches end up in Queens. That seems like a probable guess, but considering this is NYC Bus we're dealing with...
They might use the arrival of 2805-2874 as a way of doing the remainderof the repowers on the soft seat Orions then figure out what to do with them later. Perhaps summer service on the SI local routes when there will less skool kids to rip up the seats.
school kids are already riding them. that is the only service they see.
The 93 Orion V's suburbans are almost assuredly to end up in Queens.Probably split between CS & QV.(JAM will probablely end up with the remaining 1982-1985 RTS-04 suburbans from QV)
thats right numbers are going to be as above. the first two 2143 and 2145 arrived yesterday at yukon. the buses have a sliding wheelchair door. i have no idea how nyct deciced to go back to these numbers and im sure they dont either. yukon should get 2140-2157 or 2161 with the balance going to castleton and ulmer park or is it jamaica.
Wonder if later on, the MTA will renumber busses 2705-2804 to 2210- 2309 to match up with the number series that the MCI busses are already in.
On another note, does anyone know if the wheelchair lifts are any easier to use on these MCI's coming in as opposed to the older models??
Thanks Everyone,
Shaun
I seriously doubt that JAM is going to get any MCI's(unless they ever build that new depot that been in the planning stages forever)
wheelchair door now slides open and the idea of renumbering 2705-2804 makes a lot of sense so of course the mta wont do it.
On the Q60 this morning: a Green Lines Orion with a side destination sign reading "9-17-1997". The last day the front destination sign worked, maybe??
That may have been one of those designated originally for WMATA. After we got ours here in 1997/98, a lot of them had that on their signs too.
Did you catch the number of the bus? I had 5514 this morning and that bus sounded literally like a pig-right rear was squealing. OINK OINK! ;) Also saw 5507 5538 5520 5525 5546 on the Q60. Only sign that was working was on 5546-both in the front and side. Speaking of 5500 Orions also-where's 5501? Been on the manhunt for this bus since that post of it having an Orange Sign and I haven't seen her-usually on the Q60. 5502 I haven't seen either. Maybe she's getting the Orange sign too? IDK! 5503 I saw last night on the Q60 with her Orange Bailios sign shining brightly with a torn wrap of Moving Image.
Q60#5501Gary
Unfortunatley, I didn't get the number. Haven't seen 5501-2 in a while, but I saw 5503 Monday night. That sign looks good!
Q60#5503Mike
I saw #5502 last week on Q10. And the bus did not get the Bailios sign on #5502. The last time I saw #5501 was back in November 2000 when I was going to Queens Blvd and 83 Ave on Q60 on a sunday. That was before it got the Bailios sign on #5501.
Dominick Bermudez.
Orion5 #5501
Orion5 #5502
I saw that on a C8 WMATA Orion V last week at White Oak.
Or...maybe, the day the sign was set-up? Just a guess
Peace,
ANDEE
That sounds plausible, or the date of manufacture of the signs (though September seems late for a 1997 model bus). But neither has the same sarcastic quality of my original "guess" :).
LOL
Does anyone know of there was ever a book written on the History of MaBSTOA?, or any of the private line that eventually became MaBSTOA?
Mabstoa - Manhattan And Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority came into being when the city was forced to take over the operations of Fifth Avenue Coach Company, Madison Avenue Coach Company and Surface Transit Operating Co due to a very long a bitter strike in the late 50's.
There is a little more info on this website under the History of Manhattan Buses.
BTW Corgi makes GM Old Look Versions of all three companies.
The strike the caused MABSTOA's creation actually occurred 39 years ago today - March 1, 1962. It lasted 22 days, and ended when MABSTOA took over 5th Ave/Surface buses and routes.
Funny coincidence - another bus strike occurred today in Westchester and the Bronx - Liberty Lines routes in Westchester were originally part of Surface Transit, later became part of 5th Ave Coach, and after the 1962 strike were the only operating part of the old 5th Ave Coach network that survived until taken over by Liberty in the early 1970's.
Right. I used to have newspaper articles on the strike(vanished during a move). The city used Eminent Domain to get the lines.
For the younger readers- Eminent Domain is the power of a municipality or state or any government to size private property for public use after paying a reasonable price as set by courts if it is deemed to be in the public interest.
Ex: the city wants to build a new bus barn and one property holder does not want to sell and the city has the land needed escepot for this one site. The city can use eminenty domain to get the land anyway and the courts will decide hwo much payment the landowner gets for their property.
There is at present, an idea to abolish MaBSTOA and merge their lines with NYCT. The TWU has expressed concerns since the MaBSTOA benefits are less than their NYCT counterparts. The rationale for a merger would be to end "artifical" separations of lines, equipment, and employees.
For the younger readers
Why specifically for the younger readers? Are only the young ignorant of things like eminent domain?
From 1925 5th Ave also had two express routes in Queens, i.e. #15 & 16 from Jackson Heights to Manhattan. When MaBSTOA took over they became Q32 & Q89. That Q89 no longer exists.
Busbuff publication Motoe Coach Age has done a number of fine article on the early private companies, e.g. May 1972 "MaBSTA, The First 10 Years"; July/Aug 1971 "Fifth Ave. Coach Co."
I leared a lot about this from several BusTalkers, one dear friend in Florida.
Mr t__:^)
It was actually the M32,it didn't change until 1988 when all the other bi-county routes# &county designations were changed with the opening of the Archer Ave Line.
I'm rarely on Bustalk because I have little to offer but can advise that Motor CoachAge 1970 feaures Surface Transit [actually Surface Transportation Co..the other name IIRC was after 5th Ave. took it over.]..the remains of the 3rd Ave Railway Trolley system and early Bronx bus lines.As many know About 2/3 of Surface Transit routes were former trolley lines.
Unfortunately I no longer have an original copy but only photocopies. I am a passive bas fun and that is one of my interests.
OOPS.. sorry for the typo I missed..how about bus fan in the last comment. ouch.
Right that article was March of 1970. My friend in Florida gave me copies of a group of these for the price of the postage. I was looking for detail about NY & Queens County Ry (later to become .... you guessed it Queens Surface Corp.). TARS/3rd Ave had a line across the Queensboro Bridge of 2nd Ave & control of Steinway for a while. Then there was the 5th Ave/3rd Ave connection ... almost as much fun as trying to figure out how the BRT came to be. QSC, as one of it's former companies, ran the last trolleys in NYC (over the Queensboro Bridge). I am their only remaining qualified trolley operator ;-)
Mr t
Thanks to all who have responded to my post. This has really helped, I work for MaBSTOA out of Gun Hill and was interested in the history. I have all of the Corgi Buses for NYC, I hope that one day they'll produce a fishbowl with the Bus-o-rama added in NYCTA or MaBSTOA colors. Does anyone know if the magazine Bus World is still printed, or anyother magazine for Buses?
I picked up some model fishbowls I'd say almost S scale [1/64] from an Osco drugstore when I was in NoDak. Not as big as Corgi's and none of them in any NYC Transit colors, for $2.00 each. Nice models. I aslo saw a street peddler in NYC selling them for $3.00 each. Not bad. Perhaps some are available at such stands yet, or "bargain" stores. If they'd suit your needs?
Spoke to a driver on the 28X yesterday. He told me about the rumors that all local routes except for the B-64 were to be transfered to other depots. He told me that Gleason will get the B-1 and B-4,East New York the B-6 ,Flatbush the B-3 and B-36/B-74 which will be combined into one table and that a new express route will be started along Bay Ridge Parkway (replacing the old Metro Apple BM-15 route).
I told him that I do not think its going to happen since DOB plans to transfer the B-2 and B-31 when Flatbush becomes all articulated in 2003 to Ulmer Park.
Thank You
The 2 and 31 were supposed to go to Flatbush when i worked there in 1998. And the artics for Flatbush idea is back on the table? Not until they change the pull in line if it's still the same.
I heard that CS is suppose be going artric in the next 2-3 yrs also
While driving through Peekskill last weekend, I discovered by accident a dozen or so buses that appeared to be retired. They were sitting at the Hudson Valley garage on Highland Avenue and included #166, #218 and others. ?P?I?m assuming that the above are retired as #166 was surely retired several years ago. ?P?Does anyone know if Hudson Valley has plans for these buses? ?P?Are these buses actually still in service?
1942: The B37(3Av) begins operation.
1968: MTA is created.
B37#8538Mike
Saw this bus twice today on the LIE, each time very quickly. It had the new paint scheme and from what I could make out, the number was 2002. When I had first seen it this morning, the digital destination sign read "Express." In the evening, "S110" was displayed. I couldn't make out the manufacturer but it looked like a Gillig to me.
Rich, according to the Suffolk Transit Website at http://129.49.33 there is no S-110 Route nor an S-10 Route.
There is a route for the Suffolk Clipper which is supposed to be an express route from Selden to the 110 Business Corridor. It is contracted out to Harran Coachways of West Babylon and I thought that they used Prevost and other OTR motorcoaches not transit buses. Perhaps this was a test bus.
I thought it was contracted out to Harran but today I saw 2 more buses in the new Suffolk livery, 2002 and 2003. 2003 was on the exit 58 overpass making its turn eastbound. Later just before route 110, I saw 2002 with the S110 destination sign. Two posibilities come to mind; either Suffolk was awarded the contract or Harran is still the operator using Suffolk equipment. That would be a downside for the passengers no longer having to ride OTR's unless the Suffolk buses are suburbans.
Not all buses are Suburbans in Suffolk Transit bus fleet.
These are the Suburban Gillig Phantom's. I think Suffolk Transit just brought them for Harran for use on RTE S110.
Dominick Bermudez.
Gillig Phantom#2002
Gillig Phantom#2003
Very possible since Suffolk County itself does not operate any buses but buys them for the private contracted carriers.
There was a story on News 12 several months back that the bus was lightly used in spite of the $ 1.50. They didn't go into the reasons for lack of use, but I'll bet the fact there was only two scheduled AM and PM runs have a lot to do with it. If I were working near one of the drop-off points, I could take the AM bus to the office but can my boss guarantee that I can leave in time for the PM run ? If not and I take an AM run, how do I get home some 20 or 30 miles away without a car ?????
Perhaps the county is trying to stem the red ink by going to a bus that is less costly to operate.
If I can get over to Harran in the next couple of weeks I'll try to see if any of the buses mentioned are in the yard between runs.
What Year is #2002 came to Suffolk?
Dominick Bermudez.
Gillig Phantom#2002.
The first two digits of the fleet number Suffolk uses represents the model year. 2002 is likely a year 2000 Gillig. The last order they recieved were in the 9900's which were 1999 Orions.
If it was a 0000 seres Gilligs. If it did. The # would be #0002. Like Baltmore NABI's and STO (Hull) RTS's.
Dominick Bermudez.
I Know that nj transit is in the process of receiving new buses(d4000). how are the buses being sent to the garages around north jersey? I see most at the Meadowlands garage.
The problem im having is that these buses are on routes that are
1. To short( the 320 park and ride)
or
2. To empty( i saw what looked like 10 people get off of a 167 bus this morning at 9am)
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I am a 190 rider that is always crowded and travels a good distance for north jersey. Paterson, Clifton,Passaic.
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now for people that dont know this route it is split during rush into 3 buses/secaucus/rutherford/paterson,clifton,passaic/.the most people through out the day ride from paterson but we always get the smallest buses. both rutherford and secaucus have had the d4000 on there route with less than 50 people, while pcp route gets wheelchair bus with even fewer seats.
i know that meadowlands is right next to secaucus and route 320 but it looks like the buses are just being handed out without thought to who would benefit from a larger bus.
----
this conversation could go on from new buses to mci 9's
route 192 which is shorter has always had the 9 or its route never seen a flixable. i know there are other crowded routes also besides the 190.
---
finally what is the seating of the d4000??50-or closer to 55??
-------------------------
i know this was long but any comments from nj transit people or anyone else?????
one other thing
when i said there were 10 people on that 167. there were 52 on our passaic, paterson, clifton bus.
The D4000s seat 49, same as the MC9. There will be some D4500s at the Wayne garage for the other 190s (191 and up). The D4500s seat 57. Oradell and Meadowlands garages are the only north Jersey garages with them at the moment, but Market Street (Paterson), Fairview, and Wayne will also be getting some this year and next in north Jersey.
It might be another year or so before relief comes to the 190. NJT is planning to put the D4500 buses - which seat 57 people - on the 190 upon delivery. The D4000 buses only seat 49; same as the MC-9 buses.
Around 3:00 PM yesterday I decided to take the Q74 bus to the subway. I looked at the schedule I had (effective 1/01) and saw that there would be a bus arriving at Kissena & Melbourne at 3:04. Since my last class was in Rathaus Hall, on the north side of the QC campus, I decided to wait at the nearest bus stop, at 64th Avenue. I saw a bus making the turn from Harding onto Kissena. The sign said "NOT IN SERVICE." Someone who was waiting at the stop stepped into the street and stuck out a thumb as if hailing a taxi. The bus, which was empty, didn't stop. The driver pointed down Kissena Blvd.
A few minutes later, another bus made the turn. The sign on this one also said "NOT IN SERVICE," but unlike the last one, this one was carring people, and did stop at the bus stop. The driver of this bus said "I'm not going all the way around." Twenty minutes passed by since I first got to the stop. That's when a third bus made the turn with the sign "Q74 KEW GARDENS." I got on this bus.
Why are operations on the Q74 the way they are? Why do they have to take buses out and put them in at the middle of a turn-around loop? Why can't they do it at Main and Melbourne? Buses leaving Stengel would take College Point Blvd to the Van Wyck, get off at Jewel Av, take that to Main Street, and go up to Melbourne and start. Buses bound for Stengel would have the last stop at Main and Melbourne, then go up Main back to Stengel. The way they do it now makes no sense. Then again, isn't that what MTA stands for?
A 74 can't run off from main and melbourne. It's taking people to the college. The unofficial end of the Northbound service is 146 ST and the LIE. Most of the operators change their signs for the southbound trip to the subway there. A guy you see NOT IN SERVICE on Kissena is running off - or at least he's supposed to be. Perhaps the first dude you saw NIS was an extra list guy just thinking that the first stop was Melbourne/Kissena -and if he's new he may not know all the nuances of the line. I am pretty sure that after pull out, the first time point on the paddle report after it tells you the sign code is "146HH" - 146 and Horace Harding. So maybe just chalk it up to a new operator.
I meant at Main and Melbourne after passing QC.
[Why do they have to take buses out and put them in at the middle of a turnaround loop?]
The short reason is that Kissena & Melbourne is much closer to CS depot than is the Kew Gardens subway. In fact, the only trip that pulls in from Kew Gardens is the school-day-only supplemental trip from Townsend Harris H.S.
Because the Q74 is so far from the depot, road reliefs are too expensive; instead, everything pulls in and pulls out. BUT, because the turnaround loop is so large, the pull-outs and pull-ins overlap: The arriving bus makes drop-off stops to Kissena & Melbourne and then pulls in instead of taking a 6-minute layover. The departing bus pulls out in time to be at Horace Harding & 146th six minutes behind the arriving bus and does NOT take a layover at Kissena & Melbourne. That way, everybody riding to or from the loop gets an uninterrupted ride.
In other words, the second bus (the one with passengers) was the one you wanted; the driver had simply forgotten to put up the Q74 destination reading.
i get that all the time
I saw a bus this morning on Queens Boulevard. It was a Q32 bus. From my position, over 47th Street, looking through the windows of the mezzanine level of the 46th Street station on the 7 line, could see the number 3496 on the roof of the bus. However, the number on the back of the bus had the number 4112. Also, this bus had no rear sign!
Strange, isn't it?
I believe 3496 (a 1984 RTS-04) was renumbered to 4211. The reason why is a mystery to me. But, then again the way the TA operates is a mystery.
Wayne
Talk about an identity crisis!
in answer to waynes post see my recent one on the new mci buses.
I think 3496 was renumbered 4211 when the "real" 4211 was scrapped (the reason, who knows?). But I thought both were scrapped now; I guess not!
OK: Here is what happened. I'm not 100% sure, but I'm sure this is close. When the original #4211 was delivered, it was scrapped in a matter of days, I believe it was a fire, or technical problems or something. Bus 3496 was changed to 4211 to make up for that bus. I guess it meant something to have a 4211 but not a 3496. I guess they forgot about repainting the top of it.
There is no fire on #4211 & #3496 change to #4211 back in late 1999. The original #4211 was stripped & sitting at Metro North Storage Yard for while. It a engine problem not fire. I do have picture of original #4211 in NYCTransiTrans Page GMC-RTS Bus Pictures Section.
Peace
David Justiniano
Every time I think I finally know the Metrobus fleet number for number, something else shows up that throws me off.
By now, I think I do have most of the fleet down pretty good as do most of us here after talking about it so much. But yesterday on my day trip to DC, I noticed something which did not fit with any of my previous findings: Metrobus #8965.
The bus was an unrepainted Flxible Metro, either an A or a B. I went on that day to spot even more Metros with numbers above 8951. The mid-late 80's Flxibles is the part of the fleet on which I have always been foggiest; I would love a clear and ACCURATE roster of WMATA Flxibles bought between 1986 and 1990. Everything until now has just been my estimates.
By the way, shouldn't we be able to get production lists for Flxible Metros now that production is complete? I would have hours of fun looking at that list...
I know the 8900's go up as high as 8975. The ones from 8970 on have Cummins engines, while the other 8900's have DD's. The 9200's get mixed up too. I think 9201-9249 have DD's, then switch to cummins from 9250-9269, then back to DD's from 9270-9288. And, the ones from 9201 to 9249 have lifts, but the ones from 9250-9288 don't. I don't really understand that logic.
That is because 9250-9288 are 96" wide Flxible Metro-Bs while 9201-9240 are 102" wide, same with the 9300-9400 Series, Same order just two widths! And to answer the question about A or B Series. Metrobus never owned a Metro-A, All Of their Flxibles are Bs (8600-9400 Series), Ds (9700-9800 Series), or Es (4000 Series).
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Thanks, Trevor! That makes sense. Leave it to WMATA to throw people for a loop. I like the 35 ft. Flx. Metro B's, 9480-9498. They only seem to operate those on VA. routes, though. I see them a lot on the 1B,C,D and 2B,C routes.
Yeah - What's even more unusal about those 35 footers are they're 102 inches wide. It seems that WMATA has Flxible Metros in every size except 35 feet-96 inches wide.
Wayne
Yeah, pretty much. I wonder why they never ordered more 35 footers. They seem to have just enough room for everyone. The scheduling of buses in VA is so different than MD, though, in that particularly on the weekends, most of the buses run every hour, whereas in MD or DC, for that matter, they run mainly at 30 minute intervals, some at 10-20 minute intervals depending on what part of town it serves.
Blacksburg Transit (VA) has some 102" 35-foot Flx Metro "B"s in service. They are favorite buses in the fleet, along with the 40' 102" Metro Bs they also have there.
Most of the drivers think they are turds, but I think they're the pride of the fleet!
-F.
They don't seem to be too bad.I believe most or all of them are parked at the Arlington garage across the street from my apartment. (Great bus fan pad!!) I was on 9491 the other day when I dropped off my car for an oil change and a couple of other things and she seemed to be doing pretty well. Most of them have the new paint scheme and they look pretty sharp. The only thing is those stupid LED lights on the back. :( The very first time I saw them, I guess it was around 1990 or 91, I took a doubletake because there was something different about them that I couldn't put my finger on until I realized it was an "in between" size.
Ugh...LEDs. Good for Gilligs and New Flyers, but not so much on Flx Metros. Hmm...wonder how they'd look on New Looks or Fishbowls? Brain wheels spinning....
That must be neat to live across from the garage. I miss my old apartment near Downtown Roanoke, where a bus came right in front of it. Every day, I could tell the time by hearing the roar of the 6v92 or the putting along of a Series 50 every half-hour. I could almost set my watch to the sound of those Gillig Phantoms!
From there, I moved out to SW Roanoke County, which is a nice area but there is literally NO bus service because all the hoity-toities there thumb their nose at transit, and could care less for bus service as long as they wtill have their latte-colored SUVs. As a result, yours truly had to walk (or run) in all types of weather for
over two miles to the county line just to catch a bus. It got old fast.
I then moved out to Salem (just outside Roanoke), which is nicer and less expensive. Nowadays, when I catch a bus, I just hop in the car, drive a couple blocks up to the hospital, and voila; instant bus service, where I can enjoy the ride, and keep all the wear and tear off my poor car, which gets more than its share of running hard at work. And one less car is clogging the highways already full of jerks who don't know how to drive.
-F.
Yeah, its very nice having bus service right at your door. I live 1 1/2 blocks from the Ballston Metro, so its a major feeder line area. I think about 30 routes, including those that run just on rush hours or just Saturdays, etc. stop there. The 1C comes right by my place and goes right by my office here in Fairfax, but its a 45min.- 1 hour ride vs. 20 minutes in a car, so I opt for the car most of the time. I may take it on Monday as there seems to be a great possibility of us getting a lot of snow. Of course, a three day weekend would be nice...
I used to live in PG County where we had very sparse service, no late night service and very little, if at all weekend service. Things are totally different in Arlington where transit is a major player.
I didn't realize that Roanoke had so much transit and transit history for that matter. Northern VA seems like a completely different state than the rest of VA. I think that's where a lot of animosity from Richmond comes from, too.
Yeah, sometimes it's just easier to fight the traffic if time is an issue, but I still like to ride the bus when I can.
Roanoke has a great transit history. I've lived through a bit of it, and I still learn more by the day. To learn more, visit us at:
www.arcticboy.com/buses/savebus.html
Richmond also has an interesting history as well; in fact, I have videos from the 1940s and 50s of where they switched from streetcars to an all-bus system, a promotional VTC (Richmond) film from 1954 encouraging the importance of using transit, which inspired me to do the same (lots of neat Old Looks and Twin Coaches seen here!), some neat 50s TV commercials for VTC, and a b/w film circa 1957 of an experimental air-conditioned Old Look at VTC (complete with huge roof-mounted rear rockets; kind of a sneak peek at the Fishbowl!).
I'll have to send you a copy of this neat film; it is truly awesome.
-F.
Can you just take the RTE 1C bus to get to work instead of takeing your car. It saves alot of GAS Money. And you could use that Money for something eles. Like going out to the Movies. Going to Theme Parks (I love theme parks). Things like that. The most people that save the most Money is the People that take the Bus to work.See now get the Idea.
Dominick Bermudez.
Dom, great points; also, it's a great way to save up for that hot date on the weekend.
Hell, if you get a wild hair and REALLY want to save money, share a bus ride with that special someone and have a SUPER cheap date that at least you'll enjoy!
-F.
>>>Hmm...wonder how they'd look on New Looks or Fishbowls?<<<
While it's not an LED, here's an idea of how flipdots look on a fishbowl. Sorry it's not a better pic.
click Here
Peace,
ANDEE
I've seen that before; it's funny to see on a Fishbowl, but neat nonetheless. I've also seen a Flx New Look with a Luminator sign; it was definitely different.
I wonder when someone will get a wild hair and design a Low Floor Fishbowl?
-F.
I remember WMATA had some on their Fishbowls and New Looks. I would see them on Connecticut Avenue when I used to live in Northwest. I liked them better than the roll signs, even though they did look odd.
I remember a couple of the WMATA Flx New Looks actually had pink flip dots in the early 80's, then they changed them to green,like the others they had. Those buses were numbered 8594-8603. They used to be used a lot on the 30 line and I rode one on the F6 in the mid 90's.
Baltimore used to have Fishbowls with flip dots and used to use them in the summer in Ocean City.
There were quite a few Baltimore Fishbowls which were either retrofitted with the flip dot signs. Mainly, these were buses which were overhauled in the early 1980s. Also, some of the 29xx series buses were retrofitted with flip dot signs.
A great example of electronic signs on GM Fishbowls is in Toronto. Virtually all of the TTC buses which were originally equipped with roll signs were replaced with Luminator MiniMax destination signs.
When I was going through recruit training up in Great Lakes, The PACE system had rebuilt Fishbowls w/flip-dot signs...I checked out the bus interior where the roll sign was located and the only thing you saw was the control box...you couldn't tell there was a fip-dot behind the access door if it wasn't for the control box.
Atlanta had them too (only time I ever saw flipdots on fishbowls)
Neat. Wonder what happened to all the old MARTA Fishbowls?
Neat. Hey, neat handle; back when I had my own radio show, I was known as "Freddy The Doublewide Gonzo". It really brings back memories for me; a real retro ride, if you will. Kind of like riding our Grumman 870 from the museum; it takes me back to another time.
-F.
You're right about that. Since I grew up in (The Bronx) New York City I was quite used to having both bus and subway service at my door. So when I moved to the DC area I lived near the Silver Spring Metro station and this was totally planned move. I do have a car, but I don't like the idea of not having the bus/subway withing walking distance. I do miss the (more) frequent service of NYC buses and the subway. I'm still miss having 24hr subway service with express trains. Of course I don't miss those extra slow moving trains. Bring back the old days of fast and fun subway rides in NYC.
Wayne
From what I understand, DC has a good Metro rail service. As far as the buses go, I remember trying to get back to the Smithsonian from almost near the MD line, and for every bus not going southbound, there were about 70 going the opposite direction. Finally, half an hour later, I got on the 64 and got back near the Smith. So much for riding the bus out of town when I don't know the routes.
On a lighter note, I did get to ride ny first articulated coach (5207) and my first ride in a Flxible Metro "D" (9813). I also stepped onto 8912 for some quick information. It was a great trip overall.
-F.
You should have taken the train.
I have; it's neat. Just like a really fast underground bus. The Bredas remind me of a Flx Metro with their slanted sides.
Underground bus?
I have heard that applied to Montréal but not DC.
DC is a train w/o a doubt.
It sounds like now its mainly going to be rain during the day, so I may be able to extend my time a bit and the metro should be ok. I was kind of looking forward to riding it in the snow since that section near Grosvernor is the only outdoor part of my whole ride from Ballston to White Flint.
It was sad not to see Super Mario play, but the Caps held out and won 4-3. There were so many Penguins fans it felt like I was in Pittsburgh!!
In answering Orion5's question, I could take the 1C to my office. I usually take it when the weather is bad and I need to get into the office. The trip by bus takes almost an hour, compared to 20 minutes or so by car. Believe, me, I keep contemplating driving or taking the bus. Its only 9 miles each way for me, so luckily, its not that much gas. THe reason the bus takes so long is that it diverts through an apartment complex, then a shopping center and then it goes 10 minutes out of the way to loop through a hosptial before it gets to where I have to go. If it ran Express like it does going the opposite direction as a 1Z, I'd definitely consider it more, but I am going outbound in the AM, so they don't have counterflow express routes, which they should look into doing.
I agree; slower travel time by bus makes for an inconvenience for sure. That's what is a major factor each day for me when it comes to choosing between driving and leaving the car at home. But what you have to remember is that the bus loops through all of those places to serve the masses, and not just you and I. That's why it is called mass transit. :)
-F.
That's pretty much what a Breda train car feels like; a super-fast, underground Flxible Metro on rails.
-F.
Whatever you say.
I definitely agree that the buses are for the masses. I make good use out of them on the weekends during the day since traffic around here is so bad, they come in handy to go the malls and things like that.
My girlfriend lives in DC, so she's used to mass transit, but makes it a point to poke fun of my liking of transit. Chicks!!!!!!
The bus system is definitely the "step child" of DC. Its because of that stigma that is always attached to a bus (dirty, slow, only for those that can't afford a car, etc.). I don't really care about that, the bus works for me. I, too can here the buses from my living room and can tell what type of bus it is that's rolling by. Late at night, you can really hear them. There used to be these metal plates on the street by the apartment and everytime a bus went over it, it sounded like a loud gunshot. I think they purposely floored it going over that to make it noisier!!
The rail will come in real handy tonight when I go to the Caps game at the MCI Center and when I briefly go to White Flint tomorrow to visit my parents. I will just leave before we get inundated with snow. I have this hunch I'm not going to work on Monday. : )
But Super Mario isn't playing. At least you get a Metro ride out of it.
The bridge south of Grosvenor is a fun run with snow on the ground. The only problem is that under a service level 6 because of the snow, red line trains terminate at Medical Center. A level 5 has trains terminating at Twinbrook.
If you go to White Flint, you will probably make it but your hunch about Monday sounds probable. I hope it is a reality since my school loves setting up retarded field trips/assemblies and we have the former on Monday. No school=no field trip!
Yeah - I don't like those LED lights on the Metro either. It's probably why I'm dreading the Metro D & E getting their overhaul and returning to service with those awful looking LED's. Isn't there at least 1 of those WMATA 35 foot Metros that managed to escape the LED lights? I know amongst the 9300/9400 there are a few around that have the original squared wrap-around lights.
Wayne
I really wish they could have left the wraparounds alone...I mean, come on, there has to be a way to make LEDs work in the old housings. I've heard of it being done to an RTS, so why not?
Down with tacky little round lights on Flx Metros. It's time we take a stand for original equipment, and stop WMATA from making their beautiful buses look like bad South Park illustrations.
-F.
35 footers? Alright...that's what I grew up on! Ironic that they're in the same state as me and that they bear old Valley Metro route numbers that our 35' Grumman 870s carried here in Roanoke.
-F.
And to answer the question about A or B Series. Metrobus never owned a Metro-A, All Of their Flxibles are Bs (8600-9400 Series), Ds (9700-9800 Series), or Es (4000 Series).
Are you sure about that? I thought the most telltale sign of a Metro A was the drivers window, with the two little openings at the bottom and the sealed and more rounded top section. If that makes a Metro a Metro A, then WMATA has plenty. Also, I though Metro B production did not start until about 1988. WMATA began buying Flxible Metros in 1986.
From what I understand from Trevor Logan, Metro "A"s were in production through 1986, and "B"s were from 1987 to 1991. Hope this helps.
-F.
Same here....I'd like to see this list too. I've seen one for Grumman 870s but it doesn't give build/delivery dates.
Can you guys read Paradox 2.0 files? I would be happy to send you the list if you can.
The Paradox 2.0 files CAN be read through Microsoft Works database; however, you'd have to decipher which column is which info (not hard to do) and format the thing to be able to print it out.
With regards to missing fleet numbers, I find NO listing for any WMATA buses numbered 8926 through 8949. There are 8900-8925, then 8950-8970, 8971-8975. Nothing else in the 8900's.
Addendum.....
Don't worry about being able to read Paradox 2.0 files or not.
I already converted the Flxible ADB production records that I have to a Microsoft Works .WKS file to make it easier for those interested in having it. You are all welcome to it, for the asking.
One thing you will have to do is rearrange the columns. The Paradox database sorts the records by the numeric portion of the 8-digit segment of the VIN's. The year codes were NOT in order though the numeric were (i.e. some GD's were done after some HD's, etc.) You can then resize the columns, print it in whatever font you find most easily readable, etc. with Works.
If you want a copy, E-MAIL me. I will NOT send the file if you just request it here in BusTalk. Do NOT clutter up BusTalk with requests. E-MAIL ONLY!
I'd love to see these.
-F.
I think it's common knowledge (at least with the Liberty plates) that private owned buses (including NYC-DOT operators) have the "BUS" license plates. And NYCTA buses have the "OFFICIAL" license plates. I noticed a couple of years ago that a few of the Classics at NYBS had the "OFFICIAL" plates also.
I wonder if the DOT buses will get the "OFFICIAL" plates also.
Wayne
Triboro and Green Orions have the official plates. NYBS classics also.
Q53#3005Gary
Q60#5501Gary
BXM7#1489Gary
This Afternoon.
At 5:25 PM.I saw #620 on Q46 when I was eating at Buger King. If I have to go I could have went on #620. At 5:44 PM I walk to the Bus Stop at 164 ST for Q46. Then I got on #4344 on Q46 the bus was Standing Room Only. But #4344 went out of service at Main St. After one of the Front Brakes broke when the bus stoped at a light at Main St and slowly crossed Main St into the Bus stop. At 5:58 PM the driver said."This bus is out of service go on the next bus" Everybody went out of the bus and end up going on #7002 witch was behind #4344.
#7002 started go get Standing Room only. Because the bus have Few people on #7002. I never Rode a 7000 seres bus for a Few Years. Everything went fine on #7002. I lucky to be on #7002 today.
Dominick Bermudez.
Orion5 #620
GM RTS#4344
GM RTS#7002
620 on the Pike?! What run had her? I may know the driver who did.
4344 is a slow bus and loud. 7002 I haven't rode in a while but I was on 7005 yesterday on the Q46 and that bus was fast. Today I had 3976-slow black pork chop paneled bus with Bronx-style numbers on her. Also saw 3982 3958 and 4198 on the Pike with 3976. Anybody knows if the 1982's are still doing service?
Q46#611Gary
Q46#7005Gary
Q88#3950Gary
Q79#1773Gary
#620 left the 164 ST stop on Q46 at 5:26 PM. I got too shock to see that bus on the Pike. I was like LAMO.
Also I saw #144 on Q74 today. I think the 1982 RTS's are still in service. I saw #3818 on X68 and #1740 on X63 Last week. I was like.
LAMO,LAMO.
Dominick Bermudez.
Orion5 #144
GM RTS#3818
GM RTS#1740
When I saw #620. The driver looked like was a new bus driver.
Dominick Bermudez.
When I saw #620. The driver looked like was a new bus driver.
Nomally. The New Drivers would drive 9300/4900/8300 seres buses.
Dominick Bermudez.
Ok did the driver wear a blue MTA Wool hat and have a goatee? It could be 1 of 3 people. 1 could be my friend with run 036-his leader-run 026-a rookie which is what I'm leaning towards who had 620 or run 032 who is not a rookie-he's famous on the Pike.
Q46#619Gary
>> Normally. The New Drivers would drive 9300/4900/8300 seres buses<<
That is absolutely not true. If anything, the new operators tend to get stuck with the older buses since dispatchers tend to give the new buses to the more "seasoned" operators. However, the main rule is you get the type of bus according to your run. If you are going to do high miles, you get a new bus. Low miles, an old bus. But the primary principal: you get what the dispatcher gives you, and have a nice day.
BIG AL
No Suburbans on Q46 today. The only Suburbans I saw was #116 on Q74 this Morning. I went on #116 and everything went fine on #116.
Dominick Bermudez.
Orion5 #116
why would there be a problem on orion 116?????
There was no Problem on #116.
Dominick Bermudez.
Orion5 #116
Where are the garages of Liberty and Bee Lines located, please? Do they share any facility?
One of them is at 1010 Nepperhan Ave in Yonkers. I remember a few years back there was talk of them building another garage further north to expand and reduce deadhead mileage on the buses. Assuming you're driving the easyest way to get there is to take the I-87 or Sprain Brook Pkway to Tuckahoe Road (West). After about 1-2 miles Tuckahoe Road becomes Nepperhan Ave. The garage will be on your right hand side.
Wayne
I visited the Bee LIne facility in 1997 when I was visiting family in White Plains, it was really nice. It felt like Fort Knox getting in there with all the security they had. The majority of the buses are kept inside. That was the first time I can remember seeing an MCI OTR coach with one axle in the back. I know the older GM buses of the 50's - 70's were like that, but I don't think I had seen that on an MCI. I took the BXM4C into the city that weekend and got to ride a couple of them. Nice ride.
Yeah - MCI started offering those two axles buses (96A2 & 102A2) in mid 80's. Around the same time Eagle also offered a 2 axle bus. I think these 40 foot long (2 axle) buses were aimed at operators/agencies for commuter routes like the BxM4C. MCI's MC-5 line was a two axle bus but it was 35 feet long. The GM OTR coaches came standard with 2 axles but a 3rd (retractable) axle was available.
Wayne
Liberty operates out of three garages:
1. Liberty Lines Express - on Nepperhan Avenue in Yonkers. This garage might be owned by NYCDOT; the buses there are definitely owned by NYCDOT for use on routes BxM1, BxM2, BxM3, BxM4A/B, BxM11, BxM18.
2. Liberty Lines Transit - on Saw Mill River Parkway in Yonkers. This is one of two facilities owned by Westchester County, with county-owned buses.
3. Liberty Lines Transit - near the Westchester County Medical Center north of White Plains. This is the other county-owned garage.
-----
Note that Liberty operates most, but NOT all, of Westchester County's bus service. A few small companies operate some of the lesser mid-county and northern routes; one of those companies is a church group called PTLA ("Praise The Lord Above") Enterprises.
Liberty Lines Express depot is not owned by the City of New York. It is owned by the bus company.
Why would the City provide Weschester with jobs and not the Bronx
Thank Yiy
I was under the inpression that Westchester doesn't own the other two depots either, i.e. when the Franchaise comes up for renewal the County would also have to factor in the cost of buying the depot if they wanted to give the routes to someone else.
Mr t__:^)
is there an limeted exp. on the route br. 41
Br. 41???? The BX41 and B41 both have limited service.
Wayne
This bus was spotted on Van Siclen Avenue and Linden Blvd being hooked up to a tow truck. Look at the back with the rear up and s#*% was all messed up. Is this the end or will it be in Qns next week? :):)
J/K
B83#4423Mike
I saw a Baltimore bus fan site and came up on something interesting. I have learned that their 1992 Flxibles (9201-9250) came with 6-71 engines. Hmmmmmmm!!
How did that happen and why? I assume these are the exact same units used on the GM Old Looks. I'll assume they sound like Old Looks too. I do not know since I can't go up to Baltimore. Their previous Flxibles have more powerful 6v92 (or 6v92TA) and L-10. Also their late model Flxibles have DD Series 60. I thought 60's are on intercity coaches and can't be ordered on transits. I now belive you can order a Neoplan artic with a 60.
Seems some Flxibles have exotic engines sort to speak. One time Steve Hopkins pointed out that there was even an inline version of the 92 series engine in some Flxibles like in Los Angeles.
I saw a movie "Bronx Tale" several years ago where DeNiro(?) was driving an Old Look and the engine seemed to sound like a New Look.
The original Detroit Diesel 6-71 from the Old Looks and the DD 6L71TA used by Flxible in the late 80s/early 90s are indeed related. The newer engine is based on the original block, but added a turbocharger, aftercooler, and electronic controls to improve emissions. Regardless, they do sound the same as they drive by.
I've always thought the engines sound totally different per model. I've never heard an Old Look with a 6v71, but I do know that GM and Flx New Looks sounds about the same with it (with slight differences as year models progress), while Flx Metro/870s sound completely different. RTS buses sound totally different as well.
Probably due to different exhaust and body design configuration, I assume, but the differences give each bus a specific character with the same engine.
A GM and Flx New Look actually sounds different from each other with the same 6v71. A GM New Look sounds less refined, while a Flxible sounds more refined. On a model year basis for a manufacturer, I would hope it would sound the same from one year to another.
You are right that each manufactuer gives the bus a distinct sound.
Some Flx new looks sounded just like GM new looks, but newer ones sounded more like the older RTS & Grummans with the 6V-71. It was the different transmissions that affected this.
Hmm...those must have been REAL late models. We had a fleet of 6v71 76 Flxes and 79 Grummans here, and they sounded COMPLETELY different from each other. I'd like to know where these ADB-sound New Looks are so I can ride one!
-F.
NY's 9000's, which were from '77-78 (making them pretty late-- perhaps the last ones before the Grummans), were what I was talking about. Now, I didn't say they sounded exactly like the ADB sound. More like a cross between the new look and ADB. Many even had the "whine" characteristic of Grummans & RTS's. So did many of that last model of GM [4500?] (not the transit fishbowl, but the larger suburban coach used on DOT lines), only these were always 8 cylinder.
Those were the last Flxibles built before the Grummans. I'd like to ride them and hear what they sound like; must be neat!
-F.
Very true; a Flx New Look has a neat retro rocket sound, while the GM has a straight roar. I like the sound of the GM okay, but I like the Flx better. It's got a great sound that I grew up with.
I guess I thought it had to do with model year because I rode a 1959 Fishbowl and the Flxibles were 1976. Funny how between those two decades, each bus still looked brand new and state of the art.
-F.
The original 6-71 and the 6L71TA referred to in the original post are straight (inline) six cylinder engines. The 6V71 and 6V71TA used in New Looks and early ADBs are V6 engines. The inline and V engines only share their cylinder design.
That's correct; funny how an inline can go to a vee design. How long was the 6L71 an industry standard before the V series came along though?
This newer version of the old engine must be what Bee-Line Flx Metro's use. They sound deeper, sort of like an inline 6, only the acceleration definitely sounds turbocharged. Flx 870 Metro's normally sound just like RTS's
Nothing sounds like an RTS. An 870 has a similar sound and gear pattern, but the sound is almost totally different. Alot of RTS make various bass sounds that sound like tubas or roaring engines.
On the inside, the sound is different. I listened to the Grumman sound track from transitworld.com and it lacked the cool transmission (or power steering) whine that a similar engined RTS might have. In 1996, I visited University of South Florida where they had 35' RTS and Grummans running around and they sounded quite similar.
The RTS might have had 6v71N engines.
And they do. The RTS and Grumman in the last example are 6v71s.
No wonder. I've never ridden RTS buses with anything about the 6v92TA. I've ridden Flxibles with 6v71Ns, 6v92TAs, and 6v92TAs that sounded like 6v71Ns. These last buses were at Kappa last year and when I go this year I'm going to ride them again.
Didn't the RTS II-03 in Houston have 6v71s? You never rode those?
They were RTS-II-01s actually, and sadly no, I did not. Even though they lasted until 1992, they weren't around the northside of town. One came up to my school one day in 2nd grade and I got on it. It smelled like mothbalss, but since it didn't move, I never heard the engine. It was the coolest thing I had ever seen up to that point though.
RTSes sound so muted. I like a bus that makes a nice audible engine sound.
-F.
You have obviously never ridden an RTS. They can be so loud the windows shake. Flxibles are quite muted. If you wanted to hear the engine of an 870, you had to sit at the very back or all you'd hear was blam blam, BLAM, rickety-dick, BLAM, POP! The 1985s didn't rattle as much, but their engines were VERY muted. They sounded like AC units.
The ones on Drogin lines (serves Bayonne area, and with blue stripe like TA)and NJ Transit sound indistigushable from RTS's (That is, 6v92's were talking about)
Not the ones at Virginia Tech; they sound completely different. Their 1986 and 87 Flx Metros sound just like Grumman 870s, yet their 1989 RTSes are so muted you can't tell if it's a 71 or a 92 back there. They sound like the Metros from the outside, but I hear a muted turbo whistle on the inside. Must be one of those freak 6v71-T engines I've heard so much about.
-F.
I just wonder also why DD went back to inline configuration? I thought the idea of a V block is to make the engine compact. I believe that was why they were used in 1959 New Looks and later. In automobiles, inline engines are known for their smoothness, balance, and importantly power and torque. Is that the reason?
That's correct - inline sixes are inherently smoother, and despite the block being twice as long, they still do not have packaging issues in a transverse mount and V-angle transmission.
That's ironic considering automotive V6s are smoother than inlines. Case in point; the Chrysler 3.3L V6 in the late model Dodge Intrepid and the Slant Six engine in the older Dodge Dart et al. Both are fine powerplants, but the 3.3 has a quiet, barely-there idle, while the Slant 6 sounds like a powerful sewing machine.
-F.
It's the V-degree that makes the difference. The 6V71 and 6V92 are 90-degree V6s, which are unstable (6x90=540 degrees - 1.5 rotations). A 60-degree V6, like the Chrysler 3.3, is stable by design (6x60=360 degrees - 1 rotation). The slant six is an inline engine, by the way, just mounted at an angle.
Right, right. I totally forgot that using a 60-degree engine against an angled inline would be a sketchy comparision. I only went with what I've owned and have proven to be dependable. At any rate, each engine sounds totally different by configuration.
-F.
Is Detroit Diesel going to come out with a V-8 version of The Series 60 engine?
I'd love to see that. A modern 4-cycle V8 would be interesting for sure.
-F.
Actually, the 94xx and 95xx Flxibles listed as having a "DD60" are actually DD50 engines. Only a few of the Baltimore Flxibles have the L-10 engine (some in the 89xx series), but most of the 94xx Flxs have the M-11.
That makes more sense. The DD60 is more of a heavy truck engine than a transit mill. Bet it would haul ass in a Flx though!
-F.
Don't ever worry about what a bus engine sounds like on television or the movies....sound is often replaced. That's why you almost always hear Canadian train horns when movies are around trains, even though they're showing definite USA roads. Someone made a bunch of really nice sound clips of the Canadian K-3H horns!!
There used to be a TV show years ago -- I forget the name of the show, but it was about a New Mexico lawman who came to work with NYPD) and he commandeered a GM fishbowl on one of the midtown crosstown routes, and the sound was that of something shifting gears about ten times a block -- in other words, an 18-wheeler!!!!
Dennis Weaver as "McCloud."
Same thing with Telling Lies in America. When OMOT's restored Cleveland Transit 1959 Fishbowl no. 641 rolled past Kevin Bacon and Brad Renfro near the beginning of the movie, it sounded suspiciously like a Grumman 870. In other words, NOTHING like the straight roar I remember when I rode this same bus with the OMOT guys in North Olmstead last summer. Kind of interesting.
-F.
Bus engines in movies are pretty accurate to me. I used to think the opposite when I would watch TV and see a GM New Look take off and it sounded like a garbage truck, but lo and behold...they do.
GM New Looks tend to sound unrefined and gruff. Trevor Logan has a recording of a New Look and it sounded like the engine was laboring too hard and going past redline. Engine sounds like those old GMC Brigader dump trucks which share the engine.
I rode a 1959 Fishbowl which sounded like that due to loose shifting between 1st and 2nd, followed by a big thunk to let you know it was thumping into gear. Wonder if that may cause the excessive rev on the soundbyte bus?
-F.
I remember the huge order of Metropolitans the (T) got in 1976-1979 that had both the 8V71 engines and 6V71 engines. The 9000s, the 9200s and 9300s were powered by the 8V71 engines that sounded like huge motorcoaches, while the 9700 series which were loaned out to Winthrop sounded a little tinny, much like a GMC fishbowl. They also had Metropolitans (7500s) in New Bedford, operated by the 6V71 engines as well. So it might look like a Flxible, but it might sound like a greyhound.
Metropolitans don't look that much like a Flx. Some of the parts and design cues are there, but the AMG looks more like a cross between a Fishbowl, a Flx, and a Gillig Phantom. The side windows are just too plain; slanteds would have looked MUCH better. I still respect them for what they are though.
-F.
Today, I had the opportunity to visit the ENY base shop. We walked thru the various machine shops which refurbishes components, had a quick walk thru the main repair shop and a tour of the Bus Command Center. It was a good tour although I felt we were rushed thru it. I would have liked to have spent more time in the main shop. It was difficult to see bus numbers since most paint/decals were scrapped off, but it appeared that 8808 is on the way to restoration. The mangled front has been taken off. Many 1993 (100 to 300 series Orions) were in the process of being repowered as well as the 1993 RTS (8400 & 8500 series). Saw an MCI getting body work (forgot #). One interesting note: The Queen Mary was in one of the pits being restored to operating condition. Needless to say, the mission of the TA is to run the regular service buses, for the customers to get the most bang out of the buck, yet it was nice to see that the Queen will some day be able to visit an event under her own power rather than having to be towed.
Following the base shop tour, we visited the ENY depot. We took a ride thru the bus wash in 9075 (no leaks) and walked around the depot a bit. They inspect approximately 10 buses per day and have to repair "troubles" as well. Each bus gets inspected once every 30 days, it also gets a roof to floor thorough cleaning. The maintance area operates 24/7. And here's the answer to the oft asked question as to why some ENY buses have that red sticker under the front number. That depot has over 300 buses assigned. And keep in mind these are highly used local buses. They cannot fuel them all at night like in other depots. There are 120 buses with the red sticker. This means that all these buses must make an apperance in the depot between 8AM & 4 PM to be fueled. In order for this to be accomplished, the dispatcher who assigns the drivers a specific bus has a list of what time a particular bus pulls back into the depot. If the bus pulls in between 8 & 4, then that driver must be assigned a red stickered bus so it can be refueled and get sent out again. If a particular bus will be out thru the evening rush, then a non stickered bus can be assigned. This would explain why the newer buses have the red stickers: so they can be used on the overnite "hawk" runs and can thereby "pull in" upon the clearing time of the "hawk" operator. Of course, the fare box would be vacuumed at the same time.
So that means the 99 Nova's (all 125 of them)are refueled during the day.
On Sunday nights, I notice basically older stuff waiting to be fueled up. That answers the question. I wonder if Fresh Pond performs maintenance like ENY does. Highly unlikely. They should've found a 4400 or better yet, 3669 to ride through the wash!
If 3669 was still at FP, it would have to be towed thru the wash. With the maintance level at FP the way it is, there is no way 3669 would still be an active bus. I honestly feel that ENY maintance is the best among all Brooklyn depots. And it's a miracle that ENY had all those 1983's operable for so long. For FP maintance, personal observation from recent bus riding, the 9100's are the best of the fleet. The 95/9600's and 5000's are rolling wrecks. I saw 4202 running on the B57 Saturday morning (run 5), but haven't seen your favorite 4212. Time is running out for me to have the honor of riding your favorite bus!
Nothing has been scrapped lately. It's still around somewhere.
Dont count FLA. They keep their buses in very good condition. Buses that serve the three busiest routes in Bklyn. Buses that run all day long. I believe FLA was third behind the two Qns depots for maintenance last year.
B41#4621MikeLTD
B44#9436MikeLTD
B46#5115MikeLTD
You know we've been talking about MTA getting reject buses-(SE Queens) but Green Bus Lines has been the land of the DOT Rejects also. 5501-5550 are EX-WMATA buses. Also 5545-5550 are former QS buses 700-705. 1143-1149 are former QS Buses 281-275. 623-648, 650-652, 655-659 are former Command Buses and 653-654 are former Triboro Coach Methanols. Jamaica Bus Lines comes in second in my opinion.
Q8#653Gary
Q11#633Gary
Q41#1148Gary
Q60#5550Gary
Just a little clarification on the Orions at GBL. I could be wrong on this, but these Orions weren't "ex-WMATA" in the sense that they saw service in Washington DC. Rather they were Orions that were ordered but finances came up short. NYCDOT was given a very good deal on these coaches. I'm sure if the Orions went over to Jamaica Bus Lines, they would be in far better shape than they are in now over at GBL.
[... Orions weren't "ex-WMATA" ...]
You are correct, but everyone likes to call them former or WMATA rejects. nycDOT got 50 at the end of that order. There was also another city or two who got some, but I don't remember the city.
Accept for the Destination signs & soft seats they are fine buses.
We only gave them to Green because we were told to.
Mr t__:^)
Looks like exciting times ahead for Metro as Metro prepares to send out the RTS after 20 years of hard work and dedication. Their replacement? 336 New Flyer D40LFs. The numbers I believe shall be 3200-3535. Add that to 2800-2949, and 4000-4156 before that and you get a total of 642 D40LFs, almost half the fleet. There hasn't been domination like that since the RTS-01s and the RTS-04 made up 50% of the fleet back in the 80s. Plus Metro already has 128 of the D30LF and 104 D45S buses. That adds up to about 875 NF buses. GM is the only manufactuer to ever have dominance over the Metro fleet like that.
Besides the outgoing RTS, these buses will replace between 80 and 200 Ikarus buses. Bear in mind none of these buses are eligible for retiremnt yet and most won't be until the year 2003. That won't stop Metro who says the buses will be delivered by the end of September. Also to be replaced are the Mercedes buses and the Ferroni Mini-Buses built by Stewart and Stevenson.
As for the Suburban Ikarus buses which can't be replaced by transit buses, Metro hasn't forgotten them. 90 MCI buses will be rolling into the city most likely around the same time the last 35xx bus arrives. It never takes Metro long to receive their buses. I don't know what type of MCI, but I'm praying for the E-Seires or the G-Seires. All of them will be 45ft.
Pretty sad. The only buses that ever lasted over to or above 15 years in Houston were the GM New Looks, the RTS-II-01s and the RTS-04s. Sad, sad, sad. You'd think they'd still be buying them. And that leaves this one last question; what will Metro buy to expand the fleet and replace the 1993 and 1994 Ikarus buses and the scores of Neoplan Suburabans. I do on think the RTS is out of the question. Metro has never been and never will be a one manufactuer comapny.
Who on Earth will just Retired Buses like that? For a 8 Year old bus to Retired Right of way? Are these people at METRO are Insame to Retired the 8 Year old Ikarus Right of way? That what MTA NYC Transit did to their 870's back in the Early 1980's. The 870's ran in NYC just 4 Years!! The people at MTA was insame to do that to the 870's. Now METRO is doing the same thing with the Ikarus buses. Normly buses run just only 18 Years. MTA still have some 1982 RTS's in service. That's 19 Years. I should say that METRO could just still run the RTS's. At least it lasted that long at METRO.
Dominick Bermudez.
P.S. to RTS 2150.
Do you have any photo's of the Houston RTS's? I would like to see how it looks like.
I'd have to take some pictures REALLY quickly. They don't have much time left. They were dominating the Bellaire line today. I saw 1976, 1984, 1985, 2150 and 2153. That's pretty good for a Sunday.
As for the Ikarus buses. They sucked. Metro had to rebuild them right after they got here. I will definately not miss them. I hope the Ikarus buses go before the RTS. The RTS don't have wheelchair lifts though. That sucks. The 870s were crap too. NYC did the right thing.
The original 2001 Orion 7 delivery was 125 hybrids and 125 CNG.
The hybrids were to be: 9700-9825
The CNG was to be: 9850-9974
However, now it's 225 hybrids and 150 CNG according to Trevor Logan's site.
The CNG is now: 9700-9849, and the hybrid #s have not yet been determined.
My question is: Is this all one delivery, or was this new addition another separate delivery?
** ATTENTION ALL NYCTA CONDUCTORS & TO's **
The "Straphangers Campaign" is gearing-up for their annual "Subway Announcement Survey". From now, until March 30, 2001, you will be subject to a very amateur survey. What they plan to do with their results is anyones guess, but it's probably in your best interests to make note of the fact that someone (anyone!) will be listening very carefully to what you say (or dont say) over the next few weeks.
Read more at
http://www.straphangers.org/announcements/ann_survey.htm
CYA
The current discussion regarding this "Survey" can be found at:
http://www.straphangers.org/ubb/Forum23/HTML/000388.html.
Poke around this site to subscribe to their weekly elect. newsletter.
They do a quite nice job of reporting tri-state mass transit news, incl. some car/truck related stuff, e.g. changes on 95 in CT.
Re: what are they going to do with the survey ... publish it with a comparision with prev. ones, e.g. on-time, cleanlyness, etc.
The TA pays the least attention to this, they do their own surveys.
Mr t__:^)
Not because of the now solved labor dispute, but because of the impending snowstorm which will hit Westchester hard.
There probably will be few buses around here in Nassau either, even in NYC. Buses don't do well in a foot of snow I guess. :-(
Good thing it's not a strike. If it was. The workers will get barry under the Foot of snow. That will be FUNNY!!
Dominick Bermudez.
Another things is that JG is going to be running very few buses being that as we have seen the C40LF's aren't great in heavy snow(same with the artrics but MJQ has enough RTS's to throw out on the M23,79&86(the same also for OTS and M15 like 3 extra RTS's will make a difference)
How often does this bus run?
Is it a nice ride?
Do people actually ride it?
Are the passengers expelled at any point along the route, or can I ride from Harlem to Harlem no questions asked?
Ive seen this bus last week while passing 126St depot. The bus (#8469) had standing room only. I know there are "certain" buses assigned to it. You might want to check the archives as I asked questions about this route as well.
M35#8469Mike
The M35 runs 7 days a week. Weekday service is from 5:30AM to approximately 1AM. Weekend service is from approximately 6AM to 12:30AM. The ride is interesting in that the bus runs across the Manhattan section of the Triboro Bridge and onto both Randall and Wards Island. There are no traffic lights on the island and the bus reaches a nice rate of speed. The line is ridden mostly by employees of the TBTA, Sanitation, FDNY and the psychiatric hospital. The rest of the ridership is composed of the homeless people who utilize the shelters on Wards Island. You can make an entire roundtrip without having to leave the bus. There is no layover time on the island. The bus makes one continuous loop. All layover is taken at Lexington Avenue between 126th and 125th streets.
Pork.Yes. It's a good Route to Ride. Also it's a High Ridership Route. I heard something about that route get's alot of weelchair's on M35. Randall's Island is a nice Park and over there is a Swimming Pool, Playgronds,and even Picknic Tables. When I went to Randall's Island 1 Time. Randall's Island fell's like to me a nice Oasis right middle of nowhere!!.
Dominick Bermudez.
I'm thinking that maybe I should ditch the bus in Randall's Island and walk to Queens over the Triborough Bridge. Are there any safety concerns?
I've walked from Manhattan to Queens a couple of times via the Triboro. The sidewalk on the suspension span is narrow and there are stairs at the ends of the suspension bridge and at the Queens end.
There isn't much to worry about, as long as you do it in the daytime. As an alternate, try the M60 bus. But if you really want to walk, here's what I do.
HARLEM RIVER LIFT SPAN
Entrance at 2nd Avenue at 124th and 126th Streets (BTW, the latter is right across the street from the 126 Street depot.) Stairs are also available at 1st Avenue. The bridge leaves you off on Randalls Island. If you take the 126th Street side, you'll be between a building and a parking lot (Parks Dept. stuff). Take a left at the bottom of the ramp and go to the path right before the really high fence. Follow the fence (you'll be making left turns around a driving range) all the way to the circle (with the flagpole in the middle.) Go through the circle. Downing Stadium will be on the right. There is a ramp on the left, right next to the bridge. There is another ramp on the other side of the bridge. You have to go underneath the bridge and to the left if you want that one. But, if the first ramp is open, take it. It will be the ramp for the south side of the suspension span. But first, there is about a mile of straight elevated roadway, and another mile of curve and bridge. The stairs leave you at 26th Street and Hoyt Avenue South, a few short blocks from the N train at 31st Street.
Here's some more info on the bridge itself
And here's a map. I don't know if it'll help, but it's worth a shot.
Does anybody remember MSBA EX-1000 ?
That's the full sized GM new look transit bus with side exit door that was cut down to a "shorty" new look fishbowl. This I was told, was done in house and a MSBA (LIB) driver I know says he took picture of this being done.
To visualize this, the cut down bus had no side exit door and three full size sliding windows ! The experiment to cut down this bus and maybe do some others was flop because the bus didn't hold the road too well in wet and snowy weather.
It's been about 20 years, so what happened to EX-1000 ? Was it scrapped ? It would have been an oddball addition to bus collector !!
Bill "Newkirk"
It has been gone for atleast 15 years.
When the job was done the bus was quick but as you noted it didnt like foul weather and was primarily held in as a last resort.
It would have made a great collectors item.
Murf.................
I remember seeing an article in "Bus World" Magazine a few years ago about a bus company converted 35' Fishbowls into 30" "Baby" Fishbowls, but kept the drivetrain. They removed a window section, kept the center door, and installed carpeting. I've forgot who did it, but it did show me how versatile a Fishbowl is.
It was AC Transit in Oakland, California. It was done in-house.
They figured out that the cutting down lightened up the balance on the front end, so an 800 pound weight was suspended under where the farebox used to be. The 800-pound weight was a bus wheel rim filled with concrete!!!!
I know of two of these that were saved....705, and 708. They both reside (and run well) in southern California. The 705 was painted into a more "standard" AC Transit scheme (to match most of the rest of their fishbowls) by its present owner, and looks MUCH better than the two-stripe scheme intended for Gilligs that it wore when he bought it. (The 708 is still in that scheme.)
Well at least here in north shore Nassau we've had alot of freezing rain and sleet and everything including roads is covered with slippery ice.
I sure hope the buses that are running out there are OK, because it looks dangerous out there with all the black ice.
Expect a lot of slipping and sliding later on this afternoon everywhere you go. Bet that the Articulateds will be o/s in Manhattan. IDK about the Bronx. Another note: from the drivers that I talk to, I hear that the Newer buses slip and slide a heck of a lot more than the GMC and TMC Buses. If it's true-why is this?
M79#1068Gary
The most likely reason why the newer buses slide more than the older buses I believe is because the newer buses have an aluminum chassis which is cheaper to build while the older buses have probably cast iron or steel which is alot heavier thus giving the bus better traction.
BIG AL
I saw it around 10:15 p.m. at Bridge Plaza on the B44. It's nice to see a bus like that on the late p.m., especially on a Sunday night.
3503-I've been on this bus a lot lately, it is one of the Ulmer Park converted suburbans sent to Flatbush. Won't be long until it goes, though.
Does 3503 have a black interior number board? Reason I ask is because 3967 in Jamaica, Queens is very similar to 3503-converted local-coach bus. I've seen this bus operating on the Q17 a few times but I've missed riding on her. I remember riding her as a local bus before it was converted as a coach on the Q46 and at that time her number board was white. Is 3562 still running around?
Q17#3967Gary
B46#3562Gary
3503's number board is just like any other of its kind: white with blue numbers, meanwhile 3562 is in the same situation {suburban from UP to FLA}
Hope this helps!
Also, finally, somebody else who named their handle for a New Flyer C40.
There are few 1984 GMC-RTS buses & there are 34xx, 35xx, and only 3669 running at ENY Depot.
Peace
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Page
I've just returned from a weeks vacation in sunny Florida. While there I visited a friend of mine who is a supervisor with Miami-Dade Transit. He took me on a tour of two of their depots, Central and Coral Way. While at Central I got to sit behind the wheel of a brand new model year 2000 NABI low floor bus. I thought I died and went to bus heaven! Now this is a bus designed with the operator in mind. A nice large and comfy drivers compartment featuring great visibility, logically placed controls, plenty of leg room, real mirrors and a door topped with glass to seperate the operator from the passengers. According to my friend these buses are also extremely fast and are the favorites of Miami-Dade operators. Big Al, Queens Village B/O, this is the type of bus that you could do a twelve hour run with and not feel like you've been gang raped in a Turkish prison. The thought of having to go back to work today and drive those awful, crappy, depressing RTS's is nauseating.
It's nice to know they'll get a good eight years out of those buses (sarcasm). Oh, and don't forget the Pepto Bismol. :)
Pepto's not strong enough. LSD would do the trick by putting me in an altered state so I could hallucinate and think I'm driving a NABI. :^)
For the ultimate NABI experience, try to find a bus with corrosion problems (pretty hard in an RTS fleet I know) and make sure it breaks down AT LEAST once a week. You'll think you've died and gone to hell-er, I mean heaven.
I got good news for you! More NABI's I believe were delivered recently. I do not know what number (with the recent delivery) it is up to now. I'll have to look at that. In November 2001, more deliveries are expected. I am glad you like NABI's. I rode them a few times and I noticed in the first two-thirds of the bus, there is almost unlimited head room. Did you check out the nice seat pattern? Also there is a pull cord for you to signal a stop, rather than the tapes of the Flxibles. I hate the survelliance cameras that the agency puts on their recent busses. DD 50 sounds very refined on the bus compared to the earlier versions on the 1993 and 1994 Flxible (about 9359-9425). You say it is fast? That is true and that a good engine coupled to a good transmission (it maybe an Allision World) will do wonders for the bus.
Two things I hate about the NABI. First, they are Flxible carear killers and second, it is not an RTS :-)
Who was the supervisor who you saw? I know online a Joe who is a supervisor in Coral Way. I am glad you got the tour and I am glad that you enjoyed it.
The next time you drive an RTS, don't feel bad. Enjoy it because one day it will be gone. Then you'll end up crying a lake wondering why that supervisor made a dumb choice in getting rid of it. :-)
Actually Danny, I cry a lake every day that I have to drive a Really Terrible Sh*t. I'll rejoice when they're all gone. My friend works out of Central and goes by the screen name of Bus Prowler. I also enjoyed those brand new 29ft Bluebird buses for "B" division that run out of Coral Way. I got to sit behind the wheel of one those and found it preferable to an RTS.
I know him online. He has a club on yahoo called south florida transit. If those RTS's are bad, can you request to drive another kind of bus, or is it assigned to you?
That must be a real pleasure because I feel like I was gang raped in a Turkish prison sometimes after spending only 2 hours on some of these cramped up Novas where the seat will not go back any further than about 6 inches from the wheel.
BIG AL
The Noreaster that's currently winding up over New England has affected some transit operations in New England.
Worcester MA RTA suspended service Monday afternoon with a final run on it's routes at 2PM.
Nashua NH Citybus suspended service Monday after a 3:45 PM final run on it's routes.
Rhode Island Public Transit Authority has announced that they will operate a Saturday schedule on Tuesday due to the storm.
The MBTA reports that their buses are running with some minor delays due to road and weather conditions, with some routes on snow route detours.
The LRTA (Lowell MA) and Merrimack Valley RTA (MA) operated all it's normal schedules today and service ended at the usual time.
With forecasters calling for 20-30 inches of snow and blizzard conditions thru Tuesday for Northeast and Central MA (Lowell, Merrimack Valley, and Worcester RTA's area's) and if these forecasts hold true, I would guess that these RTA's will not be running on Tuesday. We shall see.
By the way, 8-16 inches of snow for Boston predicted. I would guess the MBTA will run it's buses, with snow detours and delays likely.
Mark Watson
Has anyone seen one yet?
I haven't seen one in person, but there's a full-page ad in the February-March Metro magazine. Beautiful bus! :)
I hear about the Starliners, the Cityliners, and the Spaceliners, but where are they? I certainly don't see or hear of them in these parts. Are these even that popular, are people even buying them? They sorta have a retro look that doesn't entirely fit in with the transit buses of today, or even the commuter and intercity coaches.
I hear about the Starliners, the Cityliners, and the Spaceliners, but where are they? I certainly don't see or hear of them in these parts. Are these even that popular, are people even buying them? They sorta have a retro look that doesn't entirely fit in with the transit buses of today, or even the commuter and intercity coaches. What do they sound like anyway, if anyone has ridden one?
I hear about the Starliners, the Cityliners, and the Spaceliners, but where are they? I certainly don't see or hear of them in these parts.
And if your following is transit, you probably won't see them.
They sorta have a retro look that doesn't entirely fit in with the transit buses of today, or even the commuter
The market for these buses is not transit systems. They are designed for long-distance, intercity operations. I have seen some brand new ones in service, although I don't remember where! I popped my head inside an older one in San Francisco to sneak a glance, and on the interior, it may have just been the nicest bus I had ever seen. But again, that is not what transit systems are looking for.
Regarding Neoplan's transit offerings, hang in there. I have a feeling that the low floor will soon take off.
And let's face it, there is -no- company as flexible as Neoplan. They build every kind of bus for every transit application there is, and if they don't build your bus already, they will customize.
for political reasons nyct and others will probably never buy a neoplan coach.
for political reasons nyct and others will probably never buy a neoplan coach.
You mean never buy a Neoplan -coach- or a Neoplan transit bus? What kind of political reasons are you talking about? Neoplan buses are made 100% in the USA. I don't see where politics intervenes...
I think the political reasons are that Orion has a major plant in upstate New York, and the MTA (as everyone here is aware) is under the jurisdiction of the State of New York. Hence, the political pressure from Albany kinda puts the other manufacturers out in the cold.
The Two Companies are Skyliner and Plaza Tours! They both use the Cityliner.
Skyliner has that crayola three stripe scheme and Plaza just has some red strip eventually sinking to the belt line. I see both thier buses on a daily basis in the NYC Metro. Even A-1 Bus has a few Neoplan Cityliners running.
As for the Starliner, that's a brand new coach and hasn't really caught on yet, effect this past issue of METRO magazine, they just really started advertising the coach. As for the Spaceliner, since we have alot of low clearances in the NYC Metro Area, we really can't use them over there, the Spaceliners primarily run in the Mid West to West Coast Region, with a couple down at the Goddard Spece Center in Florida.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
"P.S - The only cool Neoplans to me are the Transliner AN460 Articulateds"
saw this bus in yukon shop today and it has been equipped with a farebox. spoke to a mechanic who said nyct intends to return this 1981 to service. last 1981 buses were removed from service about two years ago.
I saw #4011 running on the S79 route from Yukon Depot in Staten Island on Sunday. Guess the TA is really strapped for buses to keep putting older buses in serivce. My question is, why dont they send back their 4800's that are running at Flatbush? it makes better sense.
They are goin to put a JAM decal under the YUK decal so they can make a quick change once they do the bus move after 2270 has been in service for a week in SI.
They put them back on the road again? What is going on here & why they bring back from the Scarp Yard? You know this is crazy.
Peace
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Page
Does this mean 1201 is going to lose its museum bus status and it too shall be returned to revenue service along with a whole lot of unscrapped 81 RTS-04's
I hope F.Pond gets it. I could ride it often, or Jamaica will do just fine. I know BIG AL is just waiting to drive that classic bus.
Even with 5.5 inches of snow, roads appear to be fairly good here in Northern Nassau. I assume LI Bus should be running. When I go out soon, I'll find out.
We (the NYCTA buses) ran through whatever snow fell, and ran close to, or on schedule all day. Personally, I ran to the second of my schedule and found the roads in excellent condition as the day progressed. Usually, when weather is bad, we'll run later than normal because of slow traffic and traffic accidents/backups, but because of the large looming threat of a blizzard that never happened, most people stayed home from work, and most kids stayed home from school, hence a fraction of the traffic we normally contend with, hence your on-time performance during this storm :-)
The N21 to and from Flushing actually ran a few minutes early. Going I had a new 300 series Orion which ran great. We had to wait a few minutes in Great Neck for the schedule to catch up.
In Flushing all buses were running normally, and going back I had a 600 series diesel Orion, we also ran early and had to wait in Roslyn. The buses had lighter ridership than usual, but city buses looked fairly crowded as usual.
There weren't many LI Bus Cummins out there today, mostly 300 series Orion CNG's and diesel Orions, which is fine by me. :-)
Anyone know about the configuration for the restroom in a European high deck bus like the Neoplan STarliner? It seems to me the restroom is located somewhat below the cabin in a lower platform in the middle of the bus. ANyone know how this works?
Anybody Know whens the Bus Fest?GEEZ
You have a loooong wait my friend
NYCT-MTA Bus Fest will be in September at Brooklyn.
Peace
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Page
Hiya, I was wondering if anyone out there has old photos of the Green Lines Buses from the 60's or 70's? Are there any junkyards out there were there are new looks lying around? Plus does anyone know where to get a NYCTA bus roster from '89 '90? Thanks!
Is it just me, or is anyone else outright annoyed by some of the new "standard" features on some transit buses?
For instance, about two years ago, the transit industry was abuzz with excitement about automated stop calling systems, or 'talking buses'. This is a good idea and a cool concept, but it can be overused. I am a regular rider of one of the first systems to use talking bus technology, and their buses only talk when they need to. When the doors open, a pleasant and non-computerized sounding female voice announces the route number and destination. On board the bus, timepoint stops are called, and very occasionally, the voice will give passengers a reminder about service changes or detours. Contrast that to WMATA's talking buses (2000's-2100's, some 4200's) where a choppy and blatantly digital voice calls EVERY SINGLE STOP! This is extremely bothersome. Usually, if people are getting off at one of the minor stops, they know the area and their stop well, and if not, they can keep their eyes open, or god forbidding, ask the operator for help! I had the misfortune to encounter a talking bus (2151) on a lengthy ride on Route 2C in Virginia. I wanted to choke that voice! By the looks on their faces, some of my fellow passengers were equally peeved by the incessant stop announcements.
On a similar note, what has happened to that classic and signature 'Stop Requested' tone? On new buses, it has been replaced either by the stupid voice actually saying the words 'Stop Requested' or by a muffled, more electronic sounding tone which can barely be heard.
Here's one specific to new Orion V's: What happened to the back interior? Many of us bus fans have long been fascinated by that missing middle seat, but on models 1999 and later, the entire back interior panel has been reworked, and it is now very, very ugly. Instead of the more standard climate control mesh vent, there is now a big metal hump with industrial-strength individual protruding slit vents over the area where the middle bench seat would be. Why this change? On the 6000's in NYC, the dark color here does a decent job disguising this, but on WMATA 2100-2200's, the light color really accentuates just what a poor design this is! What happened? (side note: When is WMATA going to ditch the mid-80's-esque interiors for new buses?!)
This varies from system to system, but I do not at all like to see surveillance systems on buses or railcars. I got over my fear of crime on transit vehicles long ago, and after a few rides, most other people realize that a bus is actually a very safe place to be. When I am on a bus or train, I usually do not give my personal safety a second thought, but when I see cameras glaring at me from five angles, I begin to think "This must be an unsafe place if there is so much video observation." All of that on top of the fact that I simply do not like the transit system watching over my every move while I take a ride. I would be curious to know what drivers think of this. I really think that video surveillance on vehicles is unnecessary; I also believe that it is passing fancy and TA's will realize how ineffective it is and stop ordering such systems.
I do have a few more gripes, but for now, that's all I can muster. Now, let the banter begin...
I think the voice shouldn't announce every stop, but I like how the sign shows every stop so it's much easier for passengers. I don't really like the brand new engines. I mean, they are quiet from the inside, but i miss the musical sound of the older engines, like the 6V92TAs and the Allison or ZF transmissions.
Yeah the engines are quiet, but the A/C IS NOT! I rode on brand new D40LF 3204 yesterday and it sounded like the A/C unit was powering a city. You had to yell to talk to a person next to you. And the bus wasn't even cold!
Hehe, maybe the bus just started service and the A/c was on high?
Those New Flyers do have a strong a/c.Actually is is a pleasure to get a NYCTA C40LF or D60HF in the summer.
I agree; I LOVE the sound of the 6v92-T! It sounds a hell of a lot more exciting than a Series 50 anyday.
As far as the stop announcememts, they are great; I rode a newer Gillig in Grand Rapids over the summer one day when I was very tired. Had it not been for those, I'd have NEVER got off at the right stop! Something about those Series 50s just put me to sleep.
-F.
>>> Usually, if people are getting off at one of the minor stops, they know the area and their stop well, and if not, they can keep their eyes open <<<
You do know that the ADA requirement for spoken announcements is to assist blind people don't you.
>>> when I see cameras glaring at me from five angles, I begin to think "This must be an unsafe place if there is so much video observation." All of that on top of the fact that I simply do not like the transit system watching over my every move while I take a ride <<<
I first noticed the cameras on a very crowded NABI I was riding on. I thought the idea of having the cameras watching the door wells was a very good idea. It allows the B/O to see what the problem is as soon as someone yells from the rear of the bus. In crowded conditions, the B/O can see someone trying to push through to the back door, and the outside camera is especially good to see if someone has caught a coat in a closing back door before pulling away from the curb.
Tom
Saw Articulated #1092 running on Bx35 at West Farms Rd & this is the frist time i ever saw Articulated running on Bx35.
Peace
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Page
I got on #707 on Q10 Yesterday AM. Also I got on #711 on Q10 Yesterday AM too. Did anybody ever been on #707? When I got that bus Above the #707 it say's "Classic". That was frond on some GM Classic's. Did that mean that #707 is a GM Classic?
Dominick Bermudez.
MCI Classic#707
MCI Classic#711
707, 712-715 have the Classic sign in them. I've been on 705-716. 782 for Triboro Coach has the same thing. Haven't seen it on a QSC or NYBS Classic. Thurston may know a few QSCs that say Classic on the inside. I was on 938 on the QM1 Friday and it didn't say Classic on it. 707 is a late 1988-early 1989 model. I think GMC went out of commission in 1988. Any info that can clarify this for sure is appreciated.
Q60#707Gary
When I went on #714 last week on Q10. It did not have the "Classic" Sign on it. GM Stoped selling buses after 1988. So I guess that
#705-#707 are 1988 GM Classic's. I know one TA up in Canada. Witch is STL in Laval have some of those 1988 GM Classic's.
Dominick Bermudez.
707, 712-715 have the Classic sign in them. I've been on 705-716. 782 for Triboro Coach has the same thing. Haven't seen it on a QSC or NYBS Classic. Thurston may know a few QSCs that say Classic on the inside. I was on 938 on the QM1 Friday and it didn't say Classic on it. 707 is a late 1988-early 1989 model. I think GMC went out of commission in 1988. Any info that can clarify this for sure is appreciated.
Q60#707Gary
Saw #702 on Queens Blvd today and saw #707 on Q10 today too.
Dominick Bermudez.
MCI Classic#702
MCI Classic#707
701 and 702 I saw along Queens Blvd today. I didn;t catch 707 on the Q10 today-but that's a bus worth catching-rides really good.
Q10#707Gary
Saw #707 on Q10 today. I took photo's of that bus. Once I get a scanner. I put up the photo's up in a web site witch I going to bulit by time I get a scanner.
Dominick Bermudez.
MCI Classic#707.
PS.
I also have photo's of #716 on Q37 #711 on Q60 and #714 "NIS" with the Q41 Rollsign.
Rode #709 on Q10 today. Took some photo's of #709. Loook's great!!
MCI Classic#709
Saw #708 and #707 on Q10 today.Anybody know what time a CLASSIC can be running on Q60?
Dominick Bermudez.
MCI Classic#707
MCI Classic#708
I saw 706 707 and 711 on the Q10 at 9am this morning. What time did you see 707? Classics haven't been on Q60 in ages.
Q10#707Gary
Saw 707 on Q10 Yesterday at 3:30PM.
Dominick Bermudez.
Saw #714 and #716 on Q10 this afternoon.
Dominick Bermudez.
MCI Classic#714
MCI Classic#716
I got on #707 on Q10 Yesterday AM. Also I got on #711 on Q10 Yesterday AM too. Did anybody ever been on #707? When I got that bus. Above the #707 it say's "Classic". That was frond on some GM Classic's. Did that mean that #707 is a GM Classic?
Dominick Bermudez.
MCI Classic#707
MCI Classic#711
I was on bus 716, running on the Q60. No "CLASSIC" as you described, though.
You got on a Classic on Q60? That's Rare to see #716 on Q60. That bus mainly runs the Q41. At what time you got on #716? And Where?
Got #715 on Q10 today. #715 also mainly Runs the Q41 too. That bus did not have the "Classic" Sign on it. I got that bus at 3:20 PM Right in Front of Dunckn Doughts on Lefferts Blvd. Just on my way to CVS on Queens Blvd.
Dominick Bermudez.
MCI Classic#715
MCI Classic#716
716 has been on the Q11 the last 2 days.It also has new plates now,
I have seen the "CLASSIC" but I don't remember on which bus. Also to answer your question - there are only 3 GM Classics in New York City and they are NYBS' 1600-1602. All other (NYC-DOT) Classics are MCI's.
Wayne
This Morning. I saw #702 going back to the GARAGE on Queens Blvd and saw #707 on Q10. At 3:26 PM when I was waiting for a Q10 I got on #707 took it From the Bus Stop across from the 7 11 to the Q60.
Yesterday Afternoon. At 3:20 PM.I got on #715 on Q10 going to the same place I took #707 to.
And one more thing. #707 still have the "CLASSIC" Sign and the WRAP AD on #707 looks like it's comming off.
Dominick Bermudez.
MCI Classic#702
MCI Classic#707
MCI Classic#715
In 1976 NYCTA brought over from England two Leyland Double decker buses, and ran them on the M4 and M5 routes, what ever happened to them?
They must have vanished off the face of the earth. Interesting. I wonder if LFS 995 and Vikings 996, 997, and 998 met the same fate. I have a picture of one of the Vikings, but none of the LFS.
The Demo NovaBUS LFS #995/#999 was returned to NovaBUS ORTECH over a year ago. Again, the reasoning for this demo was not for the bus, but was for the engine it used which was a 7.2L Detroit Diesel Series 40E DDEC, 275 Horsepower Engine, which sounded very much like a 8.3L Cummins ISC/C8.3 Engine.
The New Flyer D45S Viking Cruisers #996, #997 & #998 left the NYC Metro Area and headed back to New Flyer for modifications so that these buses can be adapted into use at the MTA. These buses have returned to the area and are at Atlantic Detroit Diesel in Lodi prepping for service. From what I had saw, the roof exhaust has been moved to the floor.
Hope this information helps!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Whoo Hoo! 996-998 may see real service after all! Wasn't there also a clearance issue? I recall seeing on the New Flyer web site that the Viking is 142.5 inches tall. That doesn't give it much room in either the Brooklyn Battery or Queens Midtown Tunnel (12 feet, one inch of clearance (145")).
Thay may have also have taking the A/C unit off the to of the bus and putit in the back. This would also have had to be done to let then fix into the tunnels.
Robert
ITS STILL THERE, They only thing moved was the exhaust pipe, The HVAC unit is a new Flat design Thermo King Roof Mount HVAC unit!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
That's the same web site that says "By 2000, the New Flyer model D45S will see revenue service in cities such as Houston, TX and New York, NY."
It's well into 2001 and no one has seen the Vikings in service.
I heard that the D45S's that MTA owns was in service. When it was Running at CS in Queens that the D45S's ran the X51 Route. Also METRO's D45S's are in service. In September 1999 Issue of Bus Ride there's a Photo of one of over 100 D45S's that METRO own's. The Number is #4700 with it's Headsign saying "NASA SHUTTLE".
Dominick Bermudez.
New Flyer D45S#4700
Yeah, www.newflyer.com.
They say a lot of things, just because the TA buys three of their buses (or were they on loan for testing like Nova #995?) The TA said they'd be testing them. But where? In New Jersey? Late at Night on the x1 or sumthin'? I don't think so!
Well, I guess the TA changed its mind again. Or New Flyer is telling stories.
Houston... we have a shuttle.
:-)
I saw that picture in that same magazine. Those Vikings are HUMONGOUS! They're usually 20-30 deep down Preston St. I'll have to take some pics while I'm on break.
Why don't they just give up on those damn things and send them to Houston? We could use a 4804, 4805, and 4806. They've been rumored to be in service for over a year now. I think they were slated to be in service before our D45D buses were even delivered and that was in May 1999!
The New Flyer D45S Vikings were built on the tail end of the Houston METRO order. So in reality they would have been your 4804, 4805 and 4806. They are pretty nice buses. I first saw them in November of 1999 during the "Power of Houston" Shuttles. They are very big, and even then I could see that they were taller than the MCI's. Well, hopefully everything will work out with their modifications.
Peace & Blessings
DaShawn Pretlow
www.transitworld.org
Did you get a chance to take a Photo of that Bus?
Dominick Bermudez.
There is a equal amount of pic of this bus at sites www.transitalk.com and www.transitworld.org, and i also believe that someone else with a site got off a few shots of this bus at College Point Storage Yard.
This is a gorgeous bus, and I can't wait for these modified beauties to finally see some real NYC style service!!!!
Long Live The Vikings!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
[i also believe that someone else with a site got off a few shots of this bus at College Point Storage Yard.]
That was me!
http://rmmarrero.topcities.com/museum/transit_pictures/14/25.jpg
LFS was weak but the viking kicked but!
Regards,
David Willoughby
www.TransiTALK.com
If they are taller than the MCI buses, then they really must be very tall.
I can remember when NYCTA had 8 Leyland double-deckers (#D1-D8), but they did not stay in NYC very long. I while back I believe a fellow BusTalker said that they ended up operating for Gray Line of San Francisco.
Wayne
Yup, that is what I said!! :-)
Grosvenor Bus Lines (dba Gray Line of San Francisco) bought them, around 1982 or so. They did use a few of them for awhile on a shuttle route they instituted when the SF Muni cable car system was being totally rehabilitated. They picked up at Powell & Market, Powell & Geary, then went around to Fisherman's Wharf area via the flatter Embarcadero. They charged a buck to ride.
They also used them after that for awhile (I remember seeing them in 1989 when I was driving tour buses and wound up in SF) on the regular Gray Line sightseeing tours. And one of them was the SF Union Square Gray Line sightseeing tour ticketing office for the longest while.
When they were being used on the cable car shuttle, they still had their two-tone blue NYCTA interiors, and even the fleet numbers (I rode in "D4" one night). Al the other usual NYCTA yellow and black "Watch Your Step" and red/white/black "No Smoking etc." decals were still inside the buses then.
Thanks for the Info.
these 18 2001 mci buses have arrived at yukon and are now being prepped for service. and yes dominick they have new license plates. atu advises transit will offer training on wheelchair lifts.
Thank You for letting me know. Hudson.
Dominick Bermudez.
I thought thought that 2805-2874 were the 70 MCIs for 2001. I don't know if this may be part of another delivery?
2140-2157 are 2805-2874. They got renumbered to keep up after 2139. Maybe they'll be another order of either MCI or New Flyer Cruisers that they'll number 2805-2874. Since there's only 70 in this new order, they can go up to 2209. Remember 2270 is going to be put into service at Yukon-RTS of course.
X17#2140Gary
S59#2270Gary
One time back in November 2000. When I was going to Kew Gardens. I waited for the Q74 to come. And somehow. It was #135. I took that bus to the Last Stop. Queens Blvd. And that was my First time on a Suburban Orion5. That's how Orion5 #135 got it's name.
Anybody like the stroy?
Dominick Bermudez.
Also another point, 135 has aluminum or silver wheels-an Express Coach with those wheels-that's a great name to have. 123 is the other. I didn't get to ride on 135 when she was at CS. I did get to ride on 131-133, 136-137, 139, 141, and 144-146. I'm trying to remember the first Orion Coach that I rode I think it was 104 on the Q74 but I'm not sure. I wrote it down somewhere but I'll let you know what it is. I do remeber the 1st Orion Coach I rode at QV-626. Had a very smooth and comfy ride. Saw her today on the X68. Here's another note: 611 was on the Q46 today run 034-10am. Didn't get on her though-had a 10:00 class to get to so I had 8355 which that bus was a complete dog.(BOW-WOW!) ;) I got my sn because my initials are in there (just take out New Flyer GC the J I got to think of its meaning) and 8-23 is not only a number of a bus but it's also my b'day.
B61#823Gary
Q46#611Gary
X68#626Gary
Q74#104Gary
Gary.Did you get a chance to read my post on #116 on Q74?
Dominick Bermudez.
"This winter, the Transit Authority began replacing the old 40-seat
express buses ... with new 57-seat coaches complete with overhead lights, luggage compartments and other amenities."
The above was lifted from an article in today's Daily News.
I have a question(s) for you more familar with this equipment.
The 57 seat bus is what MCI model ?
It does NOT have a Wheel Chair Lift ?
The dashboard had to be modified (cut into) for the farebox to fit ?
BTW, the article talks about Bay Ridge locals who are upset with this new express bus to Manhattan ... the TA cut runs (more seats = less buses), plus they don't like the bus (no place to hang on if you have to stand ... aisle too small for someone in the back of the bus to get by without every standee having to exit & re-enter the bus)
If Gary or Trevor could point me to one of their photos of one I would appreciate that too.
I'm assuming they're talking about the MCI 102DL and D4500 Cruisers. I don't remember exactly how the farebox fit in, but it's a tight squeeze to get by it to enter the coach. Plenty of pictures on Trevor's site, of course.
Hey Thurston;
The MCI D4500 (DL3) Cruisers fit 57 passengers, with a bathroom 55 passengers. It does have the wheelchair lift and yes the dashboard has been modified to fit the farebox, but its not really noticable to a normal MCI Driver Dashboard.
Here are the photos you requested:
Coach #2765
The Driver's Cockpit
The Interior
You haven't been on the coaches yet????
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Trevor.
There's a problem. I click on the link URL of the photo's that you put on Your post and it say's " This page is not Available".
Can you fix that Problem? And I did not EVER get a chance to ride one of those MCI's that MTA have's. How hard is it to find the MCI's?
Dominick Bermudez.
Not very Hard at all. About 9 out of 10 Express Coaches are won MCI's.
Robert
The links work, just that Geocities is acting like a bunch straight Biaches! If that page comes up again, just reload!
Trevor Logan
Trevor, they still don't work - MSIE or Netscape, reload or refresh, dial-up or T1 connection.
May I suggest that you Try this it's another bus web site by a frequent BusTalker or go back to RIPTA42HopeTunnel's post in this thread for another way into Trevor's site.
Mr t__:^)
Just add a "?" at the end of the image URL, like this:
http://www.geocities.com/tt_0042001/TLogan/MTA_MCI_2765.jpg?
It should work because Geocities doesn't think it's a jpeg being remotely loaded. If not, try this:
http://www.geocities.com/tt_0042001/TLogan/MTA_MCI_2765.jpg and then when you get the access denied prompt, enter the "?" into your browsers textarea after the .jpg so it looks like the above example. Then access the image(s) using the same method for the rest.
It works for me :-)
Trevor, I tryed to re-load a number of times but it wouldn't work, so I went in thru the front door, then found my way to your photos. Saved a copy of #2759 (front) & 2795 (back). Will be passing them on here to answer some questions ... Thanks for the help.
Mr t__:^)
If the owner of the Geocities account renames the images to a GIF file, then you would have no problems with linking to them or remotely loading them via this site.
http://www.geocities.com/tt_0042001/TLogan/MTA_MCI_2765.gif rather than http://www.geocities.com/tt_0042001/TLogan/MTA_MCI_2765.jpg
Additionally, I have a domain in which I can offer you some free storage space if you'd like. Let me know via email.
I found that if I clicked on the hot link it failed, but if I went to the site, then to the photo I could save a copy to my hard drive.
Mr t__:^)
Yeah, I was reading the same article today. It seems that the people of Bay Ridge prefer the Nova RTS over the MCI's on the x27. List of reasons:
1. One door to enter and exit.
2. Aisles are too narrow.
3. Nothing to grab on to.
4. Accusations of less buses(frequency of service has droped).
5. No standee room.
There have been meetings and petitions, but Ill doubt the TA is going to stop sending the MCI's over to UP.
x27#2762Mike
They cut service only slightly. Now you just leave 3 minutes earlier or later, depending, obviously, on the service frequency. The buses have NO standee room, or at least they're not supposed to. But there are 17 more seats! The aisle is no narrower than it was on the RTS. It's the complaintant's fatter ass.
-Hank
Actually the MCI D Series Cruiser do have standee grab rails just under the parcel part of the rack and on the back of the seats. These people just love to, pardon my french, BITCH AND MOAN. They are lucky they even have nice new MCI Cruisers to ride on. While Queens is suffering, this is a prime example.
If it were left up to me, because of all this friggin' complain, i'd do a serious equipment transfer and send all the crap I can find to Ulmer Park then send the goods over to Queens!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Why are you people getting so upset? They don't have to ride the TA's buses at all judging by the TAs failed efforts to please them. Just because the bus is an MCI doesn't mean they have to like it. You may not know this but cutting frequencies by just a minute can throw an entire person's schedule off and we're talking about two-three minutes here. Not everyone is impressed becuae these buses are diferent and big. I'm pretty sure at least 50% of the Bay Ridge residents aren't transit dependent or the TA would just dump anything out there.
As for Queens, from what I've heard they can't handle MCIs in any depot they have. Plus they could easily be vandalized by neighborhood youth or people who just want something to cut up or throw rocks at. Anyway, why should you give the bset stuff to an area totally dependent on transit? They can get away with putting 1740 in daily express service out there in Queens because the people really don't have a choice. But the people in SI and probably Bay Ridge do have a choice and if they're demands are not appeased then they may stop using the service. So it's the TAs top priority to take care of these non-transit dependent people first. That's horrible ethics but damn good business. I wouldn't really change too much right now. I might send a few extra suburban Orions out there though, they at least deserve that. They actually deserve more but statisitics, demographics, and business sense tell otherwise.
But my point of this whole post was that the people of Bay Ridge DON'T have to like the new equipment and if they prove strong enough RTS buses will be back on the Brooklyn X-Routes.
BTW, from experience, "standee" grab rails on coach buses are actually alot higher than those on standard buses making them an inconvenience. Also, the aisles of an RTS are (obviously) wider because people haven't complained about those. And anyway, that was the prime complaint of SI, hardly any accomidations for standees. This isn't an isolated complaint. MCIs are big and weak. They weren't built for heavy duty express service.
And as for having more seats, an RTS can seat about 45 (more that I know of but I don't know about NYC) and can hold about 65 with standees. And believe me they can because the Suburban Ikarus buses here have aisles comparable to that of the express RTS coaches and they packed in 70 and these bues seat 40. As for the MCI with no standee accomidations, it can only hold 57 passengers. Which is actually more effecient?
Ok you have just proved a perfect point in this post
Quote:
"But my point of this whole post was that the people of Bay Ridge DON'T have to like the new equipment and if they prove strong enough RTS buses will be back on the Brooklyn X-Routes".
The people haven't really given these coaches a good bit of time to prove themselves. Secondly, the grab rails are fine, i'm only 5'7" which is not tall at all and I can look over the grab rails high enought to realize that there is actually little air vents in them, which is a cool damn feature. Meanwhile on a standard Orion or RTS Suburban, I get tired in the arms after about 10 minutes of standing and holding on to the rails!
Third, I'm not upset, I live in Jersey which is a MCI land. As you know, where in the midst of recieving 1,400 new MCI D Series Cruisers. So I'm quite happy, if the residents of NYC don't like the MCI Cruisers, send them billies over to us, we'll make great use of them.
Fourth, Jamaica can fit these buses, Cruiser #1945 spent about a week there proving that. Which makes sense, send MCI Cruisers to Jamaica and continue using the Orion Suburbans in QV! Jamaica has some tight looking coaches from all the times I ride Jamaica buses, barely scratched windows and all! In comparison to some Brooklyn properties!Also if the Vikings can fit in Casey Stengel (Barely Though) that means the MCIs can definately fit in there. But there is no need for the high capacity MCI Cruiser on the X51.
Fifth, The MCI D Series is the perfect coach for high capacity Express Serivce, If I was running DOB, I would've made the MCI move A LOOOONG TIME AGO! The TA made it very clear that standees on the MCIs are not allowed however the driver's allow it, now the only stupid move was reducing the service which makes for the standees. Fine, when they buy more, up the service again, and then we won't have these problems. As for Articulated Suburban coaches, we can do them but the TA is not thinking that far ahead!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
>>>The people haven't really given these coaches a good bit of time to prove themselves. Secondly, the grab rails are fine, i'm only 5'7" which is not tall at all and I can look over the grab rails high enought to realize that there is actually little air vents in them, which is a cool damn feature. Meanwhile on a standard Orion or RTS Suburban, I get tired in the arms after about 10 minutes of standing and holding on to the rails!<<<
Some people don't like change I guess. But then the Nova coaches are only three years old. You know the old saying, if it ain't broke dob't fix it. But, perhaps they will get used to them eventually. I'm still under the impression that they have proved horrible out there if the residents are riled up enough to start a petition.
>>>Fourth, Jamaica can fit these buses, Cruiser #1945 spent about a week there proving that. Which makes sense, send MCI Cruisers to Jamaica and continue using the Orion Suburbans in QV! Jamaica has some tight looking coaches from all the times I ride Jamaica buses, barely scratched windows and all! In comparison to some Brooklyn properties!Also if the Vikings can fit in Casey Stengel (Barely Though) that means the MCIs can definately fit in there. But there is no need for the high capacity MCI Cruiser on the X51.<<<
DOB is too scared to send crusiers over to JAM, for the obvious reason. I probably would send three, and if those survived I'd send another 22. They'd spend their life there after that. But that's not going to happen becuase the TA ordered them with just SI and Brooklyn in mind. If they sent them to Queens what would they do for SI? Convert 2270 into a soft-seater? Me thinks not.
>>>Fifth, The MCI D Series is the perfect coach for high capacity Express Serivce, If I was running DOB, I would've made the MCI move A LOOOONG TIME AGO! The TA made it very clear that standees on the MCIs are not allowed however the driver's allow it, now the only stupid move was reducing the service which makes for the standees. Fine, when they buy more, up the service again, and then we won't have these problems. As for Articulated Suburban coaches, we can do them but the TA is not thinking that far ahead!<<<
The TA probably cut service to recoup the cost of those over-bearing beasts. Looks like that back-fired. It'd be refreshing for them to be sent to SI, already brimming with these buses to sit unloved and unwanted in a lot while their RTS superiors tear up the streets. TAs don't think that far ahead. That's why Metro is getting rid of eight year old buses. Should've ordered RTS in '89 but Nooooooo, they wanted something new....
Primary complains I've seen from passengers firsthand on the x27 with the MCI's....
1) The extremely small area when boarding the bus.
Most people have a very hard time getting past that farebox in order to get into the aisle. The placement is terrible and the MCI is really not designed for a farebox that big. If an obeise person wants to get on the bus, he or she will have a very hard time or even can't due to how narrow the area is. The bus has luggage racks for passengers with packages but the front area barely allows a person by!
This is probably the biggest problem with the bus.
2) Inefficiancy of loading disabled (wheelchair) passengers.
The new busses had drivers which were not trained very well on the lifts. They are more complicated than the old busses. More seats need to be taken out to use them (up to 10). The boarding process is longer and more difficult. The passengers are very impatient as well.
One night on the x27 right after Chirstmas, I observed something which should never happen. The driver had a wheelchair passenger he was about to pick up. This driver was new to the line and had difficulty operating the wheelchair the previous night. When the passgengers saw this disabled person ready to board the bus, they began to moan and groan in disapproval. The driver attempted to load the wheelchair but the lift became stuck in the process. Dispatch said to push it back into the bus and move on. Meanwhile, the driver's leader has arrived. The assistant to the wheelchair began cursing out the driver, the passenger began cursing out the wheelchair person and the scence turned very ugly. The bus driver was verbally abused by the passengers and the assistant. Ultimately, the wheelchair guy boarded the other bus and the passengers promptly got off and onto the bus leaving. It was a disgusting and sad scene. Every stop afterwards, the driver was verbally abused regarding how they hated the bus, how bad service was ect.
They're feeling was that disabled people should take access-a-ride. Maybe Yes, but the bus is there for them.
3) Major Service Cuts/Schedule Problems
Regardless of what other people say, service was cut severely on the line. 7 RUNS were cut adding up to about at least 24 trips. Morning service is inefficient with busses bunched at the 7am hour when the headway is 2 minutes while busses are overcrowed earlier on when the headway is 12 minutes. In the pm, its worse, with the 4pm hour having busses come every 10 minutes from uptown (57st). Additional busses coe out of 23rd street after 4:30pm i believe. However, with how horrendous lower manhattan traffic is usually, none of these busses will ever make it downtown on time! Therefore -- there's a 10 minute headway at 5pm -- prime time for people going home. OVERCROWDING. Just because its a bigger bus dosen't mean you can combine 2 NOVA's into one MCI.
The 23st trip makes no sense. Why not send these busses to Worth St. like they once did. Avoid the Village traffic and have service run efficiently.
4) Standees NOT Allowed - YEAH RIGHT!
When UP first recieved the MCI's, this was one of the 1st questions asked. A grevience was filed with the TA several months ago but as of now, there is still no responde. The word is you have to pick up standees for the time being or else you will be written up. Even though the 2000 and I'm sure the 2001 bus will say right in them (57 passengers -- NO STANDEES).
5) No standing room
The isles are so small, you can't have someone standing in it and have others advancing to the front. Therefore when someone wants to get off, everone in the isle is going with them becuase there is........
6) No Rear Door
This is the other complaint Ive heard about from bus drivers and passgengers. If you sit in the very back, you need to walk say about 40 feet to the front just to exit the bus. The lack of a rear door is something the passengers don't like. Its even a bigger problem when there is standing room only.
7) No Windows to Open
Yes the bus is climate controlled. But all people are different. Some like it hot, some like it cold. Come people get claustrophobic and need a window near them. There are no windows to open on the bus anywhere. For people who were used to having windows that could open for years -- its irritating.
8) Passengers that complain too much.
Not eveyone hates the busses. There is a group of people that truly despise them but they probably hate everything else that is new or different too. Scheduling problems effect everyone. When service goes downhill after the premiere of a new bus, its obvious what people are going to blame.
I personally love the MCI's. Ive always wanted them in Brooklyn and look forward to getting even more. With time, passengers will either learn to love them or be forced to deal with them.
Thanks
Shaun
I'm sorry but that's TOO many problems. You've convinced me that those buses ARE NOT made for Brooklyn. I hope the passengers win this one and have them removed from the X27.
>>>8) Passengers that complain too much.
Not eveyone hates the busses. There is a group of people that truly despise them but they probably hate everything else that is new or different too. Scheduling problems effect everyone. When service goes downhill after the premiere of a new bus, its obvious what people are going to blame.<<<
With all those problems they have alot to complain about. And it's not like the Novas had been a staple for twenty years or something. They were THREE YEARS OLD! If the buses were worth a %&*! the transition would have gone along smoothly.
Notice how many problems the TA has when it buys non RTS equipment?
The passengers complained when the NOVAS first came in too, so they're not exempt. They replaced the 1982 RTS Coaches with the old style seating. I remember them saying that the new platform seating was not necessary and took up too much space but they learned to like them. I think that with a little time, the same will happen with the MCI's.
Bottom Line -- x27 passengers complain too much!!! Send all the MCI's to the x28!
>>> With all those problems they have alot to complain about. And it's not like the Novas had been a staple for twenty years or something. They were THREE YEARS OLD! If the buses were worth a %&*! the transition would have gone along smoothly. Notice how many problems the TA has when it buys non RTS equipment? <<<
That was one thing on the Novas and only a minor gripe about seating at that. That's like 10 for the MCIs.
We'd be more than happy to get those beautiful MCI's here at LI Bus. We could really use express bus service.
I'd hop on my X21 which would run to Roslyn then via LIE into NYC.
It might take a little over an hour, but that may still be quicker than the train from Sea Cliff!
It'd be alot better suited for use on LI anyway. The trips would be longer than they are from SE Queend and Brooklyn. I'm thinking about two hours.
But the MCIs should stay in SI if there going to be used anywhere. The RTS have been doing fine for 20 years.
Well, I'll admit that I have never actually ridden an express route, despite the fact that I live in the suburbs and have ridden Neoplan suburbans. However, I suppose tha MCI buses are really actually much better for interstate or really long distance travels where there aren't really any stops, except maybe one or three. Also, if there was some kind of organized stop system where people who were getting off at one stop sit in a designated section, to avoid those standee problems, install some kind of special farebox or maybe, although it wouldn't really happen probably, use a ticket or pass kind of thing and maybe have a conductor like on the Regional Rail. The wheelchair thing is just pathetic, and well, if they are going to have a system like that, I feel it would be best on transit buses. Nevertheless, I think it's cool that there are MCIs for commuter service. Many people love them for long distance service. However, for transit, I guess tehy aren't that great.
Hell Yes!!! Add an Orange stripe over that blue one and send all the MCIs you don't want out to LI. We will put them to good use.
I don't think so! Reason I had my experience with LI Buses on Tuesday and boy was it hell. 1st off I took 8371 to LIJ Hosp to connect to the N25 to go to Hillside Ave. Waited 20 minutes for 295-rode just like a QSC Local Orion CNG-aka the 400 series. Got off at Hillside Ave to wait another 15 minutes for the N22 to go to Marcus Ave. Got on Cummins 191 which ran like garbage-loud and rattly and a rude driver-I asked for a schedule and it was like he was avoiding to give me 1 but he gave it to me. Then I went to where I was going to and it was time to head back. 15 minutes later once again, I had 179. A Cummins bus that rode very well. John would be upset with me but I flew back to Homelawn Street where I was getting the Q30 to go back to school. 157 got on the bus at Hillside and Marcus. 218 I'm at my destination-Union and Utopia. I think the reason for lousy service at LI Bus is because they don't have as many passengers to deal with as MTA here in NYC do. And when the buses do arrive at the bus stop-you usually arrive at your destination rather quickly.
N22#179Gary
Q46#8371Gary
Q30#4304Gary
Of all the listed problems, only one is a legitimate complaint-the farebox location. It's always complicated loading WC passengers, and that is not a legitimate complaint, since they've got every right to board the bus. As for the schedule, people bitch if the bus isn't at the stop when they get there, or within 30 seconds of their arrival. Not a legitimate complaint. You can't open the windows on an airplane, either. So that kills your hot/cold argument.
The rear door point is moot. They walked 40' to get their fat ass back there. The buses are not supposed to carry standees. Enforce this, and... Not a legitimate complaint.
People will ALWAYS find something to complain about. It's human nature. They complain about the cold, so you turn up the heat. Then they complain they're hot. So you lower it, they complain there's no air. You turn on the fan. Now it's too loud.
Get it?
-Hank
I have to agree with Hank on this one.....Mark The Date Also!!!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
The biggest joke regarding the MCI "complaints" is Larry Hanley's (head of the bus drivers union on S.I.) sudden conversion to the anti-MCI faction. This was the same guy who was showing off the then-new MCI coaches in the Pathmark parking lot, telling everyone that the buses were coming to S.I. because he "fought" for them.
Whoa...that's news to me. He must've tried to board one. I've worked with the guy. Trust me, he can't board the MCI.
-Hank
he can through the wheelchair door.
That's cold, Hudson. But Larry Hanley has done a flip-flop on the MCI issue. First he was the hero of S.I. commuters, now he's all over the place on it. So what's his idea of the ideal express bus anyway? Also rumor has it that he has internal problems in his own union.
sorry dan but i know hanley for almost 22 years having relieved him on the b41 in 1979. hes gotten too big for his britches and i dont mean just weight wise. there is division in the local but thats not for this forum to discuss. it was he who pushed nyct to buy these buses in the mid 90s. dont get me wrong larry has done a lot for the employees and commuters for it was he pushed for the fare decrease.
Does that make the wheelchair lift a cattle lift?
-Hank
People do have a right to complain about the schedule when a significant amount of service is cut. Just because a bigger bus is in place does not mean the TA can just slash service in half.
Regarding standees, yes the busses are not supposed to carry standees, but the drivers either have to pick them up or risk being written up. The MTA tells the public that standees are not allowed while they tell drivers another story. This is an issue that has been in question for awile but the MTA never has come down with an offical ruling. If drivers are forced to carry standees, then isle space and the lack of a rear door becomes a problem.
>>> People will ALWAYS find something to complain about. It's human nature. They complain about the cold, so you turn up the heat. Then they complain they're hot. So you lower it, they complain there's no air. You turn on the fan. Now it's too loud. <<<
Bottom Line - You're Absolutely Correct. You Can't make anyone happy!
Shaun
The TA always bites off more than they can chew. All of those complaints are legitimate becuae they are coming from customers. And believe me, people will rather do alot of things than ride a bus. It's not out of the question that if people don't like these buses enough, they'll find some other way to get to work.
What the TA should have done was purchase 250 MCIs, and then purchase 250 New Flyer D60HF Suburban coaches. They could have put the MCIs in service on lower level runs on SI and in Brooklyn and put the Artics in service on high level runs. Of course Artics are easily sidelined in winter weather, so they could keep a fleet of 100 82-85 Express Coaches on standby just in case there is a fleet failure. Of course, that solution would please too many people so the TA bought hundreds of MCIs to please themselves and look what happened.
No, the TA responded to the number one complaint about the service:
WE WANT SEATS! On a 20-mile highway run, that's best provided by a rigid OTR coach, NOT an articulated design. And having a duplicate fleet to replace buses that may have trouble in inclement weather will ultimately cost more than a single fleet of buses that have no 'weather restrictions'.
They also did not cut the service in half. They cut what amounts to every third run, and most of those were duplicate, that is, they were plus or minus 2 minutes of theier leader/follower, and the buses essentially played leapfrog, which reduced overall loads. And as I said, people will complain, just because they can.
The lack of a rear door doesn't hurt. THe buses make only pickups at the beginning of the route, and only drop offs at the end. And we all know from experience, people don't like to use the back door.
-Hank
MCIs are big and weak. They weren't built for heavy duty express service.
Are you kidding me? Can an RTS handle New York-to-Pittsburgh non-stop with a full load of people AND their luggage? Go ask NJ Transit why they still have 18-year-old MCIs in DAILY revenue service, when their Flxibles (New Looks, 870s, and Metros) were dead and buried at 13 years.
An RTS could easily do that. Flxibles are inferior.
Sorry kiddies, the NJ Transit Flxibles last well into thier upper teens and some into thier 20s! So don't kid yourselves! The Flxibles are just as good! You can't compare a OTR Coach in comparison to a Transit/Suburban Coach.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Respectfully disagree, Trevor. This is what has happened to NJT's Flxibles:
1976 Flxible New Look transits and suburbans were replaced by the NYCTA Flx rehabs and the 1989 Flx Metro suburbans.
1981 Flx 870 transits replaced by 1994 Flx Metro transits and suburbans.
1983 Flx Metro transits replaced by 1996 Nova RTS.
NYCT rehabs (delivered 1986-88 after extremely limited use in NYC) replaced by 1999-2000 Nova RTS.
Thirteen years, every time.
In contrast, the MCIs replaced GMC New Look suburbans that dated to the 60s (Public Service last took delivery of them in 1970), and lasted nearly 20 years themselves.
Trevor, I know you're a major Flx fan and they are decent buses. But they have not made it to their late teens and 20s in NJT service. Ever.
But you know, these buses HAVE made it into thier Teens and Twenties and here is how.....
Those 1976 Flxible New Looks Suburbans have been purchsed by other companies and are still in use.....Same goes for the 1981 870-As and the 1983 METRO-As..Many of those buses are still running in NJ at other companies. As for the ex-MTA units as for as I am concerned, those buses made it into thier 20s and MANY are still in revenure service in NJ in which 2 are still in NJT usage on a daily basis.
I'm not referring to the lives at NJT, I'm referring to thier lives in GENERAL. NJT follows the federal rule that at age 12 the federal government will pay for near the entire cost of a new bus, so why not purchase new buses at age 12 or 13, makes sense keep your fleet current and that's what NJT does, and I can back that up by bein a NJT Employee. Not every transit follows that rule but many do. The MCIs we have were actually supposed to be replaceds 4 years ago, however with the clean air issue, NJT opted for the CNG order which could not have been adapted into every garage, so the MCIs got some more years outta them.
So again, I don't think so. Useful live at a Transit Agency can not be matched against useful live before scrap heep! This has nothing to do with my love of Flxibles, I'll back this fact up with any bus down to the Gillig!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk
My point was, once a TA retires a fleet, those used buses will never see the same level of use they had at the TA. Coach USA uses the retired Flxs at Newark Airport running the monorail replacement route. How much work are they getting running laps around an airport, compared to daily line service? I went to several of the NJT auctions in the 80s and early 90s, and those GMC (some over 25 years old) and Flx New Looks were BEAT, and beat badly (although I do regret not... ummm... "borrowing" a few old destination sign curtains). Most of the buyers were overseas brokers, looking to send the buses out of the country, while others were mom&pop 5-or-less companies. A few went to churches and individuals for RV conversion.
Look at the prices ABC Coach is asking for the MCIs and Eagles. The MC-9As are only going for $8000, yet MC-9s of the same year from charter and intercity use command more than twice that amount.
The federal 12-year replacement cycle has created a lesser bus. An ADB would never have made it in the heyday of Old Looks and New Looks, when you bought a bus to last, not to replace a dozen years down the road. Trevor, I'm sure you know Public Service P700 is still around, the first GMC New Look suburban ever made. Those first fishbowls ran what is now the 319! I just don't see Metro-D suburbans running the 319 every day.
My dad drove for PS through the 60s, his brother was the supervisor of the old PS Hackensack garage until the early 70s. Buses back then got their butts kicked. Only the transits had automatics. Streets were still cobblestone and brick. Exact fare didn't exist until the 70s. They made Turnpike express runs with 6V71 engines. And those GMCs fired up every day, no questions asked. I'll take a New Look built to last over an ADB built for 12 year duty any day.
>>>The federal 12-year replacement cycle has created a lesser bus. An ADB would never have made it in the heyday of Old Looks and New Looks, when you bought a bus to last, not to replace a dozen years down the road.<<<
You're right, it did make lesser buses, but it also made a superior one, the RTS model series. Any RTS built between 1980 and 1994 with a 6v92TA, and a stainless steel body can outlast any New Look bus.
The only reason people think he New Looks are the best thing since Halle Barry are becuase back then when transit funding was low and you didn't know where the money for some new buses was coming from, the New Looks were forced to be in service for 20-30 years. Do you really think if things were the way they are now they'd have lasted as long? If RTS buses were built in times where transit funding was less or non-existent and no goverment mandate on age of buses, they would've lasted much longer than New Looks.
A Flxible may not be able to make daily runs on the 319, but don't say an RTS couldn't becuase they would and they'd do it with a tank on their back and a smile on their face. Also do you know why New Looks were on the 319 back in those days? Becuase it was out of the question to even consider purchasing over the road coaches if you weren't Greyhound or Gray Line or a charter company. So of course they're going to use what they have.
The RTS is perhaps the bset transit bus ever made. It's not perfect, but it's as damn close as we're ever going to get. You better believe that. Do you know that Houston's RTS buses are worth less than a wheelchair lift? They're worth less than an 80's Toyota. Not because they were bad buses. They are just RUN INTO THE GROUND DAILY! But they still run which is more than we can say for some buses....
Regarding the NY-Atlantic City run... Public Service used New Look suburbans to replace Yellow 743s, PDA4101s, and PD4104s. Why? The New Looks had MORE SEATS. PS had plenty of over the road coaches, right up through 40-foot 4903/4905s - Eagle even used TNJ as a demo company in the mid 70s.
As far as the New Looks lasting 20-30 years for "lack of funding", then explain why New York City, Public Service, Los Angeles, and a lot of other major operators bought them every year. GMC made various model Old Looks for many individual customers, but the only customer who ever got a custom New Look was NYC (5309/5310). New Looks lasted 20-30 years because they were built to last 20-30 years, not because anybody stretched their service department.
>>>New Looks lasted 20-30 years because they were built to last 20-30 years, not because anybody stretched their service department.<<<
And RTS buses aren't?
Originally, yes they were.
Then the Feds said they'd pay for them all, but mandated a 12 year duty cycle and a low-bid ordering procedure. GMC couldn't afford to build a 20-year bus under those conditions, because the other manufacturers would simply undercut the bids with cheaper equipment. We all know the body modules of an RTS are stainless steel. But did you know originally, so were the suspension subframes? They were swapped out for less-expensive HSLA steel in the early 80s. More cost-cutting moves by GMC:
- interior lights were switched from the full backlit ad rack to just the narrow ceiling lines they have now, in industry-standard 48 and 72 inch tubes. GMC originally used custom 60-inch tubes to coincide with the 5-foot modules.
- the change to a solid front axle was a cost issue, not a strength issue (Army 6x6 rigs are fully independent - they're QUITE strong)
- framed windows - weighed less than the flush acrylic units, and cheaper to obtain from suppliers
- removal of the rub rails from the rear doors and under the driver's window (they were originally standard)
- when the 04 was introduced with the square back, the round threaded marker lights were replaced with standard rectangular units. Why? Because GMC had no other use for the red lenses, but the amber ones were also used on GMC heavy trucks.
All this and more in an effort to stay price-competitive. And they still had trouble. That's why GMC sold out in 1987 - they were losing their shirts building buses.
Good points, but let's get something straight; despite all of these "cost-cutting measures," RTS buses are still lasting in upwards of 15 years in major TAs. For a bus that is only built for 12 years the TAs are sure getiing their money's worth.
Also, let's look at the long lasting New Looks...
If you look at most TAs, they retired the majority of their GM New Looks between the ages of 12 and 18. Including NYCTA. The only reason some of the New Looks came back were because of the 870 fiasco. When they pulled those 870s in 1984, it was stated to ease the pressure and meet service demand they had put buses built between 1966 and 1972 back in service. That meant the oldest of them were 18 and the youngest were 12. Here's a question; if the New Looks were so damn good, why were some of them awaiting scrap at 12!? Was the TA that anxious to get rid of them? The only major TAs I know that kept a fleet of New Looks more than 25 years was Houston (30-32 years), WMATA (35 years), NJT (25 years), CTA (18 years), and NYCTA (25 years). I'm sure you know of a few more TAs with a fleet of 100+ New Looks that kept them 18 years or more so you can help me out.
Here's a list of TAs that kept a fleet of RTS in upwards of 18 years...
Houston (20 years)
NYCTA (20 years)
Walt Disney (They have more than 100 RTS so they count) (20 years)
Octa (21 years)
Orlando (20 years)
WMATA (22 Years)
San Antonio (22 Years)
Los Angelos (20 Years)
MBTA (When they're 1984 and 1985 buses go they will be 18 and 19)
MMMMMM, that's pretty impressive for a bus that wasn't built for 20 years of service, was with built tons of cost cutting features, has 10x the competition a New Look had, and was built with an age AND mile threshold in place. And I'm sure they're some TAs I've missed.
BTW, if buses were built to last back in the 60s and early 70s, explain the Flxible New Looks and their rusting away.
RTS_2150, I think you need to throw in the towel about New Looks. The fact is the vast majority of them lasted long past 12 years, even past 18 years, and there is no argument you can make to change that. Also, do not forget that a life of 18 years is 50% longer than a life of 12 years. Most other buses are off the street by the time they are 14 or 15. Aside from RTS's (which I agree are immaculate vehicles) that kind of longevity is unmatched.
What amazes me even more is that someone who swears by the RTS does not show the same respect for the New Look. GM may have ruined mass transit, but they left one hell of a legacy in the transit bus industry. Speaking in terms of craftsmanship, design, and lifespan, the New Look and RTS are very close relatives.
There were many TA's that had New Looks which lasted 20 years plus. Granted, many of these buses did not make it into the 90's, but in the early-mid 80's, it was not uncommon to see sizable quantities of 5301's and early 5303's. In fact, my earliest memories of busfanning (mid 80's, when I was but a toddler) are drooling over "The slanted windows kind" and "the rounded kind" on the rare occasion that I went downtown. Five interests and 10+ years later, that has evolved into me liking New Looks and RTS's.
I can help your lists in that Detroit kept both New Looks and RTS's well past their 20th birthdays. I have no doubt that many other cities did the same, especially for New Looks. Also, to the best of my knowledge, Orlando never had any RTS's.
>>>RTS_2150, I think you need to throw in the towel about New Looks. The fact is the vast majority of them lasted long past 12 years, even past 18 years, and there is no argument you can make to change that.<<<
I know alot of them lasted until 12 and 18, I stated that. But, not too many major TAs, or TAs that had 100+ New Looks kept them in service longer than 18 years. The average age of retirement was about 15-18 years. Also, you have to keep in mind that for the most part, there was little competition chaleenging the New Looks so they basically reigned supreme. The RTS dominated when their were some 20 or 30 other bus types.
>>>What amazes me even more is that someone who swears by the RTS does not show the same respect for the New Look.<<<
I would if they weren't so overated and I didn't have to defend the RTS against them every day. When you have people saying the Classic and the New Look are one in the same, how are you going to respect something like that?
>>>There were many TA's that had New Looks which lasted 20 years plus. Granted, many of these buses did not make it into the 90's, but in the early-mid 80's, it was not uncommon to see sizable quantities of 5301's and early 5303's.<<<
Zero competition in the 70's kept most of these running until the 80s when alot of competition began sprining up.
>>>Orlando never had any RTS's<<<
I meant Miami.
You know, you guys keep arguing about the longivity of the RTSs and the New Looks and how long the TAs kept them. I think you people have to understand that it's not only how long they could last, but how rich and how modern the New Looks were. For instance, I remember when I was little and riding those WMATA New Looks, I always thought of them as the old buses. The destination signs were really hard to read. I also always wanted to ride the new buses, whether they were Gilligs (on Ride-On), Orions (even the new Is on Ride-On, and the Vs on the WMATA-never got to ride the Ride-On's Vs), or the Flxibles (WMATA). Near the end of the lives of the New Looks, I had thought they were gone long before the year 2000, since I never really saw them. I never even saw a SEPTA new look, they were gone long before I was even born. There were many RTSs, but they were getting old and out of date. Many TAs that still have those old RTSs probably don't even have that much money to replace them, making age very useful. But Novabus says that the RTS is the most durable bus in the transit industry, yet not every TA is lining up for them. As RTS_2150 always says, "They just want to try something new." Well, new buses are new, old buses aren't, and many TA's get rid of their old buses so that they can please their passengers with brand new buses for regular service. I admit, it was fun riding a PCC car during the holiday trolley run, but I like riding the Kawasaki cars much better, since there are big windows and a/c. I rode the Almond Joys quite often, yet I prefer riding in the bright white interior of an M-4 with the nice comfortable blue seats and stop announcements, which I recall quite well that the stops weren't announced AT ALL on the almond joys. Better destination signs, that "new bus" feeling, seeing something new on the streets every once in a while, and brand new helpful equipment is probably the main reason those old durable buses are replaced. I'm sure some buses could last longer than 12 years if the TAs felt like keeping them that long. SEPTA's Neoplans certainly shown that, the oldest ones are about 16 now, and some of them will be replaced with the New Flyers. Anyway, anyword on whether some of he new flyers will have suburban like seats like the suburban Neos, or will they have the same type as the NABIs and Neo artics?
>>>Many TAs that still have those old RTSs probably don't even have that much money to replace them, making age very useful.<<<
So, you're trying to say that Detroit, Houston, Miami, Los Angelos, OCTA, WMATA, and especially NYC are financially strapped? Are you crazy!? You may not want to admit it, but Neoplans don't look that modern either. And do you actually think the bells and whistles of the RTS are the same in 2001 as they were in 1977? Do you go outside at all?! And you are the only person I've ever hear that says the RTS looks out of date. Two other people say that they're just not as attractive as Classics. Do those look modern? Mmmmmmm? The NABIs still look the same as they did back in 1987. Are you dissing those? Neoplans look 90% the same as they have since the early 80s, same as the RTS, never heard you say the Neoplans look out of date and that IS an eighties design. If the RTS was introduced today, you'd be one of the many creaming your pants over the aerodynamic curves and the sleek design. So give me a break. The RTS looks modern in any era. When it was intoduced it was FARRRRRRRRRRR ahead of it's time.
I never said that the RTS looks out of date. I'm not even talking about how modern a bus looks, and I doubt I would be "creaming my pants" as you put it if I saw it today. When I was younger, I never really thought RTSs were any better than other buses. It's just now when I hear all about the durability and such that I think of it as something. And when I said those old RTSs, I didn't say all RTSs in general, I meant those RTS-01s and RTSII-03s that used to run around. You know, the first ones that were out there? Anyway, what do you consider a modern bus? Other than the RTS? Besides, the RTS is a modern design now, but 50 years from now it probably woulnd't be. Also, the RTS isn't so totally sleek as you always put it. I'll say that it's more sleek than other buses, but it's not incredibly sleek. About the NABIs, I've never seen one before 1997, when SEPTA put them in service. Classics, I have to agree with you, don't look entirely modern, but isn't that suppose to be the look anyway, if they are "classic". New Looks, we can all say, are not modern buses, so any bus built to look somewhat like a New Look couldn't be too modern unless it's so different it's hard to make the comparison between the two. Most buses out there today that TA's buy have designs that are pre 90's, so basically the "modern" buses are buses of the 80s, or late 80's. And to add to the quote posted that you commented about, they may not even want to spend the money to replace those buses to get newer, most comfortable buses for their passengers. I've heard time and time again that Queens have those old RTS buses, and they won't even give them any new ones. I've never seen a New Flyer in NY, they are in the Bronx, I guess.
>>>I never said that the RTS looks out of date.<<<
You've never said that? Okay.
>>>. And when I said those old RTSs, I didn't say all RTSs in general, I meant those RTS-01s and RTSII-03s that used to run around.<<<
The TAs that ran RTS 01s and 03s weren't strapped for cash. Teh average retirement age of RTS 01s and 03s was 15. When Houston retired their RTS 01s in 1992, they were actualy in very good financial shape.
>>>Anyway, what do you consider a modern bus? Other than the RTS?<<<
New Flyer D40LF
New Flyer C40LF
New Flyer L40LF
New Flyer D45S
New Flyer D30LF
RTS-06
Orion VI
>>>Besides, the RTS is a modern design now, but 50 years from now it probably woulnd't be.<<<
50 years from now a bus made in 2030 won't be a modern design. What's your point?
>>>Also, the RTS isn't so totally sleek as you always put it. I'll say that it's more sleek than other buses, but it's not incredibly sleek.<<<
It's more sleek that ALL other buses that are attractive anyway.
>>>Classics, I have to agree with you, don't look entirely modern, but isn't that suppose to be the look anyway, if they are "classic". New Looks, we can all say, are not modern buses, so any bus built to look somewhat like a New Look couldn't be too modern unless it's so different it's hard to make the comparison between the two.<<<
The Classic was supposed to be an updated version of the New Look offered in Canada. It was supposed to be modern but it was just holding on to an era long past and that's why Canada has so many sub-par and out of date buses right now.
>>>Most buses out there today that TA's buy have designs that are pre 90's, so basically the "modern" buses are buses of the 80s, or late 80's.<<<
I see you've quickly back-peddled now that I've attacked the Neoplan design. Just a few months ago the RTS wasn't modern becuase it was an 80s design, and now you say all 80s design are modern? Make up your mind
>>>And to add to the quote posted that you commented about, they may not even want to spend the money to replace those buses to get newer, most comfortable buses for their passengers.<<<
Probably because the ones they have are running just fine. Scrapping an RTS bus because of an oil leak is ludicrous in my opinion. I heard that the DOB does these things and then sends an older bus in to replace it. I find that odd. But if Queens themselves are scrapping newer equipment over minor problems then why not send them old equipment?
The Classic was supposed to be an updated version of the New Look offered in Canada. It was supposed to be modern but it was just holding on to an era long past and that's why Canada has so many sub-par and out of date buses right now.
You sir have obviously never been to Canada!
First, the Classic was not supposed to be modern, it was supposed to be -updated-. No one was trying to hide the fact that the Classic was founded on proven components borrowed from the New Look.
Second, every Canadian transit system keeps their buses in excellent condition, regardless of age. Save for TTC 6300's and Orion III's, it is unheard of in Canada to retire buses at 12. The maintenance mindset of Canadian TA's is very different from that of most US TA's. Here, we think "Let's just maintain this piece as little as possible and wait anxiously for it to turn 12 so we can send it out the door." Canadian TA's treat their buses as they should from their first day on the road, and extensively practice preventive maintenace. The result? Buses which get the job done. Maybe they are not all the most beautiful buses style-wise (although that is highly subjective) but they last long and remain in good condition. I'm sorry, RTS_2150, but a quality, long-lasting, reliable bus is never out-of-date.
Plus, Canadian TA's do not have near the problems US transit systems do with new buses. Save for a few proven models like the RTS and the Orion V, it seems like every time a transit system receives a big order of new buses, the vehicles are problem-plagued in some way or another. Except for the Orion VI incident in Toronto, this NEVER happens in Canada.
Also, Mr. RTS_2150, I respect your opinions, but you need to stop dealing them as if they were facts.
>>>Also, Mr. RTS_2150, I respect your opinions, but you need to stop dealing them as if they were facts.<<<
Most of my opinions are facts.
Most of my opinions are facts.
Saying things like that is no way to build credibility, but it's a great way to make enemies and to get people to stop reading your posts altogether.
>>>Saying things like that is no way to build credibility, but it's a great way to make enemies and to get people to stop reading your posts altogether.<<<
Yes, if 75% of my opinions are wrong, but they are not.
A few of my opinions...
-Canada has out of date and sub-par buses: This is 80% fact. Despite your claims that a rebuilt New Look can go another 18 years, I've founf out that the TTC New Looks were rebuilt for another SIX years of additional service. Adding another six years of life to a 25 year old bus doesn't do much to turn back the clock does it. At best a rebuilt 25 year old TTC New Look is equivalent to a 15 year old NYCTA RTS bus whixh oddly enough many people feel are eligible for retirement. Plus, I'm 70% sure that these TTC rebuilds are equipped with a bit of their original New Look technology intact making them more out of date than most 20 year old RTS buses. You're an RTS purist, so you're going to tell me that an Orion V is on par with any GMC or TMC diesel RTS? As you know most Canadian TAs don't have RTS but have thoudands of Orion V and even older model Orions. That makes most Canadian buses sub-par and out of date. You're of course welcomed to challenge this theory of you wish.
-The average retirement age of a New Look is between 15 and 18: The majority of TAs that had a large fleet of New Looks retired a VAST majority of them between he years of 15 and 18. The ones that did stay were relegated to school trippers or other lowly service. But, I do know of TAs that did keep a fleet of New Looks 20+ years. But, if you look at the statistics, most of them were rebuilt and they were retired in the 80s when bus competition was reaching it's peak.
-The Average Retirement Age of an RTS Bus is between 15 and 20: I can't think of any TA didn't keep a fleet of GMC or TMC built RTS buses past 15 years with the exception of SMART. With all the bus ciompetition of the 90s and ADA wheelchair compliance, things of which most New Looks never had to deal with, the early RTS buses could've been out the door A LONG time ago. But yet they are surviving inregular service in their upper teens and late twenties despite the fact they've been built to "twelve year" standards and Fishbowls were built to "20-30 year" standards.
You can dispute any of those if you wish...
The Average Retirement Age of an RTS Bus is between 15 and 20: I can't think of any TA didn't keep a fleet of GMC or TMC built RTS buses past 15 years with the exception of SMART.
PAT started canning the RTS's they had when they were 10 as they were nothing but a maintenance headache and had bulkheads replaced a few times. A few lasted 14 years and that's it but the majority of (over 85% of the 125 bus order) was shoved out of the garage when they hit the 12 year age limitation.
To me they were rolling sauna's were the A/C didn't work and the windows unopenable for any sort of ventilation. True the retrofitted A/C helped some later on but not by much. Mechanics have stated that items such as replacing air bags were an automatic doubling of the time involved to replace the bags over any other bus in the fleet. Not to mention the repeated problems they had with cracked bulkheads on them. When drivers bribe assignment shifters and dispatchers not to assign an RTS to the route they drive, I think that's a pretty sad statement on the quality of those buses.
Not to mention the fuel consumption was horrible on them. You could send out an AMG, Neoplan, New Look and even the MAN artics and know they could make it the entire day on a tank of fuel yet the RTS's had to come back midway through the shift to refuel or they would die on the line.
Johnstown PA which has excellent maintenance had some RTS's also and never liked them as they had the same problem. Rolling sauna baths and cracked bulkheads. The Grumman 870's they have, and still have, are worked hard and still look and run like new.
Cleveland's 1979 order after 2 years looked liked they were ready for retirement with missing body panels that routinely fell off when the bus was in service and once again, problems with cracked bulkheads.
While I agree the RTS04 on up are a pretty decent bus, the 03's were nothing but junk. I don't really see why you feel the world must bow down and worship this bus design as the only bus that should be liked.
Give me a TDH4512 old look any day of the week.
>>>PAT started canning the RTS's they had when they were 10 as they were nothing but a maintenance headache and had bulkheads replaced a few times. A few lasted 14 years and that's it but the majority of (over 85% of the 125 bus order) was shoved out of the garage when they hit the 12 year age limitation.
To me they were rolling sauna's were the A/C didn't work and the windows unopenable for any sort of ventilation. True the retrofitted A/C helped some later on but not by much. Mechanics have stated that items such as replacing air bags were an automatic doubling of the time involved to replace the bags over any other bus in the fleet. Not to mention the repeated problems they had with cracked bulkheads on them. When drivers bribe assignment shifters and dispatchers not to assign an RTS to the route they drive, I think that's a pretty sad statement on the quality of those buses.
Not to mention the fuel consumption was horrible on them. You could send out an AMG, Neoplan, New Look and even the MAN artics and know they could make it the entire day on a tank of fuel yet the RTS's had to come back midway through the shift to refuel or they would die on the line.
Johnstown PA which has excellent maintenance had some RTS's also and never liked them as they had the same problem. Rolling sauna baths and cracked bulkheads. The Grumman 870's they have, and still have, are worked hard and still look and run like new.
Cleveland's 1979 order after 2 years looked liked they were ready for retirement with missing body panels that routinely fell off when the bus was in service and once again, problems with cracked bulkheads.<<<
All of this was in referenct to the RTS-01s and 03s. I've stated already those were horrible buses in refernce to later RTS buses. But with all of their problems they lasted longer than the 12 year mandate and 20 years in both WMATA and Green Lines. And as for your Grummans, that's fine and dandy, but I know drivers who would've bribed assignment shifters not to give them those buses. And also, Johnstown, PA isn't a place I consider hard on a bus so Grummans could probably run there for 20 years.
>>>While I agree the RTS04 on up are a pretty decent bus, the 03's were nothing but junk. I don't really see why you feel the world must bow down and worship this bus design as the only bus that should be liked.<<<
Stop putting words into my mouth. I don't feel that way at all. But when people are going around saying Classics are better than an RTS, bus that has PROVEN to out perfrom others, even the RTS-03s, I can't let that go.
Canada has out of date and sub-par buses: This is 80% fact. Despite your claims that a rebuilt New Look can go another 18 years, I've founf out that the TTC New Looks were rebuilt for another SIX years of additional service.
That's the last one, 2150. The last time I call your bluff when you try to pass off minimal and incomplete knowledge as absolute, 100% truth.
True that two batches of the TTC New Look rebuilds were rebuilt to last six years. But, when TTC picked up the pace on the New Look rebuilds in 1998, most successive New Look rebuilds were FULLY REBUILT to NEW BUS STANDARDS, in other words, rebuilt to last AT LEAST another 12 to 18 years. One can tell which rebuild program a New Look went through by looking at the number. I could go on, but I know you would not even read it because it is not praise of the RTS.
That's it. Adios.
By answering your slanderous and redundant posts everytime you overestimate your knowledge (a regular occurrence), I am not doing anyone here a service, I am just egging you on.
My facts are objective observations.
You don't know everything; maybe you could learn a thing or two if you realized that the purpose of this message board is to learn of each others' experiences and exchange knowledge, not to falsely accuse every other participant of contradicting 'fact' when your fact is nothing more than your own opinion. If you wish to express your love for the RTS or your hate for the New Look or any other opinion, more power to you. But castigating every person here for disagreeing with you does nothing productive, and nothing comes of it other than stupid, wasteful posts, much like this one.
This is the last time I call your bluff as a post, but as a service to anyone else here, be warned that RTS_2150 is not the place to look for FACTS on buses.
Sincerely,
RTS T80 206
AMEN!!!!! And that's the gospel according to RTS T802 06!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I thought long and hard about responding to this diatribe, and now I've decided to...
Let's get a few things straight first of all. If you want to pack up your toys and go home becuase I dare challenge your expertise on New Looks and Canadian New Looks, that's fine. But, don't get pissy with me on fact and opinion like I'm in some 1st grade class.
First off, 80-90% of facts are underlying opinions that have just been accepted as fact. One of those is that Michael Jordon is a good basketball player. There are a lot of statistical facts to back that up. but guess what? Some people don't think so staristical evidence and all, just like the with the RTS. If you add up all of the statistics and facts, one could conclude as a FACT that the RTS is a very good bus, but some people don't think so becuase they feel it's just someone else's opinion. There are people who feel the Holocaust didn't happen despite all the statistical evidence otherwise. Before you go off on a bitch rant, you need to learn that one man's FACTS are usually another's opinions. That's what I have to think about each time I go into battle with the people on here.
Second off all, about your so-called "objective observations," who cares? Guess what? History was based on my type of facts? Common knowledge put together to form an argument. Historians don't have the luxury of "object observations." Are you going to build them a time machine? I didn't think so. They rely on the observations of others, JUST AS I DO, ON THIS VERY BOARD!!!!! How the hell do you think I form 80% of my arguments. When you say my arguments are not credible, you're basically stepping on the object observations of ohters. Do you actually think YOUR observations are the only things that count on this board. Plus, if someone just doesn't want to believe your observations becuase they've never seen them, then what? Your facts are worth less than a German Mark back in the 1920s. So don't come here giving me a damn lecture on fact and opinion when many facts are just based on an underlying opinion.
Also, you getting pissy with me has not helped the situation. Are you upset becuase I talked about the New Looks? Too bad. You ever read posts by D60HF? He trashes the RTS with every mention. I've NEVER dissed a New Look that way. Do you see me questioning his credibility? Many will believe it's because it's a driver and they his opinions about the small driver's compartments on RTS buses as fact, but another driver, Quens Village BO, has a different opinion. It's actually a matter of preference. Some may say the driving compartment of an RTS is cramped and people will take it as fact, others will say differently. The point is, I don't put him on killfile just becuas he hates RTS buses. We actually get along quite well. You're just being petty and immature. You couldn't last a day at SubTalk with your attidue becuase there're people there 10x worse than I am with debating and politics.
And as for not knowing facts on buses, girl please. Here's just a few off the top of my head...
-The RTX was designed as the successor to the New Look in 1968, despite the claims by people on here that the Classic is the real successor. The RTX protoype was introdcued some 12 years before the Classic went into service.
-The first RTS-01s rolled into Long Beach California in 1977. They had the white New Look style roll signs and the classic RTS sloped back.
-The RTS-01s had a bumper totally different from any RTS. It was indented in certain areas.
-The GM New Look was actually first produced in 1958! Yes, 1958 when a demo was built.
-GM Style Old Looks were originally built by Yellow Coach. However, there were various other "Old Look" type coaches built by White, Mack and others.
-Variations of the old Look design date back to about 1930.
-Old Look production ended in 1969 with the creation of the "Baby" New Look.
-The original GM Transbus was a three axle design. When it was reduced to two axles for RTS-01 production, the term RTS-II-01 was coined in reference to the two axle design.
-Cracked A Frames were the main problem in Grumman 870s.
-Bad A/C was the most publicized problem with the RTS-01 and 03, but they were also riddled with bulkhead problems and the 8v71 and 6v71 engines they were equipped with were inadequate due to the A/C draining the power.
-Long Beach 4715 was the 20th RTS ever built.
-Houston, Texas was the second TA to ever recieve the RTS-II-01. They were equipped with NYC style police lights. Numbers 1700-1704 arrived in December 1977 with serials 021-025.
-The Ikarus model 416 design was introduced in 1986 or 1987.
-The Ikarus had a partnership with Crown where they built articulated buses together. Hosuton owned 50 of these numbered 1400-1449. 45 were transits, 5 were suburban. In the Metro Facts, they were referred to as Crown Articulateds.
-The spanish name for Articulated is Articulado.
-The Spanish Name for New Flyer is Nuevo Flyer.
-Flyer was one of the first, if not the first to offer the square box bus design.
-In recent decades, buses have actually become more square and less designed. The RTS was one of the last if not the last major 40ft. bus with sleek curves.
-The first American bus was built in 1907.
-RTS buses were equipped with 6v71N engines all the way until 1986, if not later.
-The Orion V design was introduced in 1989.
-Houston's first D40LFs were originally too low to be sent on cetain routes. The next orders were raised.
-Neoplan Artics in Hosuton had to have their engines retrofitted or replaced due to slow pick up. A test was done with these buses against other Metro buses to compare the pick ups. RTS 2075 was used in that test.
-RTS 2075 is currently the only operating Metro Bus without a radio.
-Boston retired their RTS-03s when they were 10-13 years old after years of trouble.
-WMATA retired many of their RTS-03s after 22 years of service and a lawsuit. 9048 was the bus in question.
-Metro currently operates three different types of 40ft. New Flyer Low Floors. The D40LF, C40LF, and the L40LF. The L is for LNG.
-The New Flyer model code goes as follows, the first letter stands for fuel type, the number stands for legnth, and the last two letters tand for either low floor or high floor.
-RTS suspension subframs were made out of the same stainless steel as the bodies.
Are those enough facts for you? As for contradicting facts on this board, that does hapeen. RDChilds listed numerous problems with the early RTS design and kcram3000 listed several cost cutting features and cheaper material swap-outs for later RTS designs which proved more successful than their earlier, possibly stronger models. Also, kcram3000 says that New Looks were built to standards which allowed for a good 20-30 years, yet MBTA due to horrible maintenence practices retired some of them at age 9.
So don't you ever post any BS about me not knowing any facts on buses. Also, I don't ever remember being rude to anyone while defending the RTS, even when Basman repeatedly questioned the quality of Metro-Houston maintenence. So give me a break.
BTW, did you know that Houston had three seperate bus overhauls going on in the early 80s? The Grumman 870s, the retrofit of RTS-01 A/C units and the rebuilding of 180 aging GM New Looks.
>>>-Boston retired their RTS-03s when they were 10-13 years old after years of trouble.<<<
-Actually, I meant Baltimore. They had numerous problems with the RTS-03s.
Well, that other guy who was insulting RTS_2150, that really was a bit rude. Even if he may not get every single fact about every single bus that was ever produced correct, you still shouldn't bash him like that. I had thoguht I knew a lot about buses back before i actually became a part of this post, but when I got here I didn't know that much. Anyway, most of my posts are questions or opinions. That's why I was never amazed by the RTS, since I didn't know about the durability and stuff. I'm still not amazed, but at least it's more understandable. I remember before saying how much I loved Neoplans and how they were great to ride, and this person said I had absolutely no right to rave about these Neoplans since I didnt "drive or maintain them", despite the fact that I practically grew up on these buses. Almost all of my RTS experiences were on SEPTA and the WMATA, and they are like the oldest kinds of RTSs, another reason why I wasn't totally impressed. People really shouldn't put down other people like that. That's what makes David Justiano or whoever is in charge of thsi post get mad, and that's why he'll shut it down it he has to be away from it for more than 24 hours.
Oh, you mean David Pirrmann. And thanks. You're kind of the last person I expected any support from. Not that it's not welcome.
>>>and this person said I had absolutely no right to rave about these Neoplans since I didnt "drive or maintain them",<<<
I get that alot, from all around. Don't worry, if you do konw something, just post it, no one can stop you from that. Thanks again.
Lol, yeah, but that huge debate on RTSs and Neoplans (I mean, Orions) made the post a little more interesting, and you sorta became my nemisis at that time, or more of a rival, I don't know, but I had no hard feelings. At least, not too many....j/k
Ok, what you are saying is very true, however, RTS 2150 has placed himself in this position, the whole thing started out with my opinion followed with some facts about the retirement age of buses in the NJT fleet, I have no idea how it got this far outta hand and as far as off topic as it has. I apologize, and that's if I am to blame, however I feel that RTS 2150s responses to the post I'd originally made were really unecessary. Also in a past post, RTS 2150 made a blunt statement, that he basically like busting my chops. Now that kinda crap would normally send me off the wall, so I really can't see RTS 2150 as the victim here, he's done his fair bit of damage and has caused many of people here to go off the deep end due to his comments.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I understand that, I admit, during that RTS- other bus debate, I could've wrung out his neck. Well, I wouldn't have, but still... Back then I loved Orions, but now only like 30ft Orion Is, it turns out I never realy cared much for anything after that. Now I love Neoplans, especially the 3000 series that everyone hates. But you have to admit, a lot of other people here do that. That whole Gillig thing? The Orions (particularly John)? I know I don't drive Gilligs or Orions, but I've never had a bad ride on any of them. But I still have to admit I don't untilize NYC transit that much, since I live near Philly, but I utilize the rt 100 all the time, and that seems to have decent trains, and I still can't understand why they are just god awful, and the NABIs seem okay, although they have a lack of leg room. In this post, and definitely in subtalk, a lot of things are opinionated, and often times things get personal.
To be honest I don't hate RTS's at all -it has served New York City well but I'll be honest it was a welcome change to see Orions arrive in 1993 and New Flyers in 96 with the 60 footers and 98 withe the 40 foot low floors(Hopefully I 'll get to ride and MCI soon).
Ok, first, let me apologixze if you think I was busting your chops. It was all on in jest and I thought you understood that. Well, if you didn't, now it's clarified.
Secondly, I never posted any commetns on this thread in direct response to you. If you research the thread as I have, you will see that. But you don't have to do that as I will show you...
Responses
Re: I REALLY DON'T THINK SO! - kcram3500 - Thu Mar 8 19:15:21 2001
Re: I REALLY DON'T THINK SO! - Its That Flxible Metro - Thu Mar 8 19:22:18 2001
Re: I REALLY DON'T THINK SO! - kcram3500 - Thu Mar 8 20:54:38 2001
Re: I REALLY DON'T THINK SO! - RTS_2150 - Thu Mar 8 23:01:32 2001
Re: I REALLY DON'T THINK SO! - kcram3500 - Fri Mar 9 09:14:37 2001
Re: I REALLY DON'T THINK SO! - RTS_2150 - Fri Mar 9 22:25:55 2001
Re: I REALLY DON'T THINK SO! - kcram3500 - Fri Mar 9 23:52:42 2001
Re: I REALLY DON'T THINK SO! - RTS_2150 - Sat Mar 10 03:02:45 2001
Re: I REALLY DON'T THINK SO! - the longevity of New Looks - RTS T80 206 - Sat Mar 10 12:05:10 2001
Re: I REALLY DON'T THINK SO! - the longevity of New Looks - RTS_2150 - Sat Mar 10 12:42:30 2001
Re: I REALLY DON'T THINK SO! - it's not just the longivity - Basman - Sat Mar 10 16:09:21 2001
Re: I REALLY DON'T THINK SO! - it's not just the longivity - RTS_2150 - Sat Mar 10 18:18:58 2001
Re: I REALLY DON'T THINK SO! - it's not just the longivity - Basman - Sat Mar 10 18:47:59 2001
Re: I REALLY DON'T THINK SO! - it's not just the longivity - RTS_2150 - Sat Mar 10 19:23:45 2001
It may be a little hard to understand at first, but as you will see all my responses were to kcram3500, RTS T80 206, and Basman. None were ever addressed to you. So I have no idea where you got that from. Perhaps it's becuase I mentioned Flxible, but that had nothing to do with anything you posted. Kcram and I were debating over the longevity and usefulness of the New Look design vs. the RTS. Nothing about Flxibles, even though I mentioned them to make points.
And since you want to go back in time Trevor, let us. Remember a guy named R142K Boi? He had mannerisms quite like yourself. Well, he attacked a brand new poster on here once becuase that poster had the nerve to ask what they everyone was referring to in reference to 1981 RTS 1245. You called me stupid in that post! I was that poster Trevor! Now, you have the nerve to say MY comments drive people off the deep end? That was an unprovoked attack Trevor. But you know what? I NEVER used that agaist you, I don't think I even responded to that. But here's a little confirmation that it happened. An e-mail from your colleague DaShawn Pretlow...
>>>Hi Jason!
My name is DaShawn and I just wanted to take the time to say hi and
just
to let you know that sometimes alot of crap goes on in the world of
BusTalk. I just want to let you that it's not worth getting involved
with the "Bull" that happens time to time. I posted a response to back
you up because that response was not cool that was made in response to
you. Well I hope to come down to that great town of Houston and If you
can keep me posted on the happenings down there. Well I hope we can
keep in touch and if you like I can keep you posted on things happening
here.
Peace & Blessings
DaShawn
aka Flxible Metro D #1975<<<
There you have it. I could've been your enemy for that attack, but I let it go. But you have a grudge against me for something I say in jest and then throw it in my face!? I don't see myself as a victim either, yet, I don't see myself as a pestilence. I never would've responded the way you did to a simple question. In fact I took an hour and 30 minutes out of my time on two occasions posting Houston Bus Info AND a detailed roster, in fact two or three od them because someone had a simple question. So don't you dare turn me into a bad guy!
I'd LOVE to see a pic of the 1958 Fishbowl prototype. How similar is it to the production model? Does it have standees and/or and A/C unit?
Also, why was GM so eager to design a prototype to replace it just 9-10 short years later? I like the looks of the RTS as well but find that to be a bit odd.
-F.
It looked exactly the same. I believe it was produced right before the New Look went into production. The final protoype I believe.
Are there any pics of this thing out there?
A drawing of it. That's how I know. I don't know where I saw it though. Sorry.
You saw it right HERE on this sight. BTW it's listed as 1957. Note the single headlights.
Peace,
ANDEE
Wow...that's neat. That thing sure does look funky with the single headlights. Then again, quad lights didn't show up on cars until 1958, and a year later on buses (the New Look being the first).
I noticed a tapered upper rear portion; was that an early AC unit or just part of the body?
-F.
I believe the taper was just part of the body.
Peace,
ANDEE
That's what I thought; I wonder if there are any pics of an A/C prototype around.
-F.
I know the design of the new look started as far back as 1954. I have a set of front door and rear door blue prints from GM on the TDH5301 and the original issue date on blueprints is 6/54. First Revision 6/56.
Wow...I'd love to see the prototypes from those early years. Wonder if they had the large slanted side windows from the beginning? Or the "fishbowl" windshield? Anyone out there have any info on this?
-F.
I made an error in my earlier post. It was kind of hard reading the blue print and when I looked close at it I saw my error. The date was 6/56 (not 6/54) with a first revision of 6/56. It's still pretty early though and the doors drawn on the 1956 blue print match what was was used in production coaches.
I'd love to have gotten more of those early blue prints when PAT tossed them but was lucky someone there pulled these out of the trash can and was able to save them. They would have the original drawing dates on them which could help track the development.
Most systems probably have copies of them as you could buy them from GM so the various properties could work on the bus (mostly for body shop work or custom making a part).
That is so neat. Hang on to those; they are an obscure yet valuable part of transit history. I really want to see photos of the 1956 prototype.
-F.
Check out SUBWAYSURF's posting; it has a neat illustration of the real thing.
Check out the book called "The General Motors New Look Bus" by John McKane. It gives some history on the New Look production. Besides GM New Looks, it also has pictures of Old Looks, New Look Flx's, Classics and Demos. The pictures are in B&W though only 3 of which are NYC buses. There's also sales promotion material, one with a picture of an early Green Bus Lines New Look at JFK airport. This book might give you a different insight to what went into the GM New Look production.
I have that book. That was where I got that question about the "EIP" package and retrofit kits for earlier Fishbowls.
What exactly is the EIP package?
(E)nviromental (I)mprovement (P)ackage. It was an exhaust system that I was told that had a catalytic converter and other goodies. The exhaust pipe would come out on the left-hand side of the rear window (similar to the Flxible Fishbowl look-a-likes). SEPTA's GM Fishbowls never had them, but all of The Flxibles did.
I like that setup much better, especially on the Flxibles. I never knew that buses had catalytic converters; where were they located, and what year did they start using them? Cars began using them around 1975.
-F.
That I do not know, since I've never seen an EIP equipped fishbowl in person (at least not the "high up" version).
Hmm...wonder of anyone out there would know when catalytic converters first appeared on buses?
-F.
I'm pretty sure when the EIP systems were introduced around 1970. Maintenance manuals I have for the late model 5305's (70-71 model years) mention the catalytic converters on the EIP equipped units.
Hmm..did EIP become standard across the board later on? Sounds like in 1970 they were optional equipment.
-F.
I'm not entirely sure. Our Museum's 1976 GM T8H5307A NOMBL coach still had the low exhaust without converter even though it had the EIP style air intakes (which were standard after 1971). The 5307 manuals indicate it is optional but the manual I have for those is an early one covering up through 1973 coaches but since the NOMBL's 1976 order had standard exhaust with no converter as delivered, I am pretty certain it was just an option still.
Many systems did eliminate the catalytic converters after a while. PAT canned the ones on thier 1971 T8H5307A's over the years but still retained the upper exhaust location.
So do the ADBs have these? I understand many TAs canned the cats on the New Looks but it seems like the EPA would have been pushing to get these on buses as well as cars. Then again, diesel burns cleaner than gasoline, so perhaps this may not have been an issue or the equipment was seen as redundant? I'd like to research the topic to find out.
Not all buses with the EIP had the exhaust pipe up high. Oceanside (California) had some T6H4523N's with low tailpipes AND the rear window intakes normally associated with EIP. San Diego Transit did also.
I'd love to get that book. I am curator of a transit museum with two of these (a 5303 and a 3302) and we have considered this book for our future archives.
Fred Donaher
Curator
Commonwealth Coach and Trolley Museum
It is a nice book, but remember the title is GM New Look a photographic History, many pics, but not much text. By the way that book says the first one was a 1959?
That's correct. OMOT has an original Cleveland 1959 Fishbowl restored; the first order was to DC Transit (nee WMATA) in the fall of 1959.
-F.
If you do get your hands on that book, it has a couple pictures of the DC Transit GM's right after they purchased them. I have a Corgi model of the DC Transit. The route number on the Corgi, G8 is one bus that came near my house. About 20 years ago, WMATA renamed it the F8. It runs from Langley Park to Cheverly Metro Station in Prince George's County, MD.
Wow, the F8? That's the bus that used to go by the place I used to live in Langly Park. I never rode it, and never knew where it went, but I would see out of service buses runing by outside the apartment all the time.
Yeah, it ran a long ways. I used to live off of Riggs Road and University Blvd. and used to take that one to PG Plaza on Sundays before the C4 and R2 were changed to operate there on Sundays as well. The F8 used to only run to Prince George's Hospital, but several years back it was extended to run to the Cheverly Metro. The weekend service for that bus is very sparse. I think its every 60 minutes on Saturdays and every 90 minutes or something like that on Sundays. When the C2 used to run from Beltway Plaza to Montgomery Mall, early morning trips used to start up there in Langley Park as well and end there in the evenings. Thankfully, all that changed. Of course, I don't live out there anymore now, but its good for those that really need the service to have something halfway reliable.
Back when I lived by the Plaza, we never really depended on Metro that much except for the K6 sometimes and the C buses. From Twinbrook we'd take the C4 after I trip to the Kids R Us, and the C2 to go to PG Plaza. I think out of all the routes I depended on the K6. However, I basically used Ride-On all of the time.
And in true Corgi fashion, they put the wrong marker lights, tailgate, etc. on the bus. The model has the second-generation (4518/4519/5303/5304) marker lamps and engine tailgate yet they numbered it 5700, the first DC Transit TDH5301.
That figures!! Corgi did a good job by coming out with the fishbowl models, but they sure didn't get all their research correct.
While some experimental prototypes were built prior to 1959, the first PRODUCTION units were released in late 1959.
Get a life, y'all! ... All due respect to both parties involved, but we're arguing over the accuracy of information about the longevity of bus rebuilds! On the Internet! Look at all the issues in the world today and tell me there are none that are more deserving of your time and energy than this ...
C
I see you've quickly back-peddled now that I've attacked the Neoplan design. Just a few months ago the RTS wasn't modern becuase it was an 80s design, and now you say all 80s design are modern? Make up your mind
Back then I actually didn't think before I spoke. Now I actually realize that ALL popular buses that most TAs buy originated from the 80s. So, basically, the 80s design ends up being the modern design of today.
50 years from now a bus made in 2030 won't be a modern design. What's your point?
My point is that the RTS won't be modern forever, as will be the fate with any other bus. So it's not as special as you think it is.
>>>My point is that the RTS won't be modern forever, as will be the fate with any other bus. So it's not as special as you think it is.<<<
I know that. But the RTS is still modern even 23-24 years into it's design. The New Look was out dated when the first RTS-01 rolled into Long Beach.
As much as I like New Looks, remember: Eisenhower was president when they were new.
And remember: Carter was president when the RTS was first released.
And Star Wars had just come out as well.
And Saturday Night Live was only two years old.
-F.
How old were you? You are a good guy Flxible.
I was just a few months old when the RTS first came out. It's hard to believe that something that advanced looking was coming out when I was just a baby.
And thanks. You're a good person too. :)
-F.
I was in limbo. I was around when the first 4000s hit the streets of NYC though.
Wow...you must be younger than me. When did the 4000s come out?
1985 and I was around when NYCDOT brought the RTS-03 for QT/ST,GBL,CTC & JBL(1978/79 & I was 11/12 yrs old.)
Wow...I remember 1979, when we got our first Grumman 870s in Roanoke; I was two years old, almost three. I though they were so neat looking! As a result, "Brand New City Bus" were some of my first words; I must have ran around and talked those things until I was 5 years old!
And now here it is, 22 years later, and I have just helped restore one of these buses to its original glamour; to me, it still looks new to this very day.
-F.
First Bus i saw was 12xx running in brooklyn back in 1981 & my first rts ride is 15xx when is ran on M15 back in 1982 heading to my school. Also first ride when 1982 #2695 that ran on M101/102 back in 1983 before 32xx deliever to old 100th street Depot.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Soon to be NYCT-MTA Traffic Checker
I rode on my first one the summer or early fall of '79 when I was 8 y.o. WMATA had just taken delivery of them. I rode it on the C2 from Prince George's Plaza to my house. I saw it going the opposite direction on my way to the mall and I thought it was the coolest thing I'd ever seen, especially with the slopeback. I have no idea what the number of it was because I never really paid attention to that stuff until I got older.
I don't know when I rode my first RTS, but it is probably a WMATA RTS. I used to ride them all the time on the K6, but I think that was the time when they did all of those renovations. The only other types of RTSs I have ridden are SEPTA's slopebacked RTSs, other than the one I rode in New York last year. To tell you the truth, I don't really like the slopeback that much. It's too much of a slant. If you compare the front to the back, the slant is at a lower degree than the front, and that seems pretty odd.
I used to be a big fan of the slantbacks, aut after getting used to seeiing all the squarebacks around (and driving for a TA which ran them), the slopeback looks very odd to me these days. It just looks so odd to see all that free space back there!
However, I still prefer the slight slant to the rear of the Grumman 870s and early Flx Metros to the boxy 90 degree angle of the Metro Ds and Es. That was just a gradual change, though...and as long as the black is around the windows and rear grille instead of all white (eeeyugh!), it still looks just as good as the early models.
-F.
Sweet! Hey, did WMATA get any Grumman 870s around that time? That was around the same time that we got our Grummans here in Roanoke. In addition to Grumman no. 186 from here, we also have WMATA AM General no 7535 preserved at our museum, which was still in service when you rode your first RTS.
Fred Donaher
Curator
Commonwealth Coach and Trolley Museum
Unfortunately, WMATA never received any Grumman's. The first Flx Metro arrived in 1986. In '79, we had plenty of fishbowls, Flx New Looks and AM General's, though. I used to refer to the RTS when I was a kid as "sliding door bus", an articulated bus used to be "bending bus" and the AM Generals were "those square buses." Ugh, kids!!!! LOL. I like that picture of 7535. The AM Generals disappeared practically overnight when the Metros arrived. I remember riding a 7400 series AM General as late as the Summer of '86, then voila, gone!
Wow...so the Metros are what replaced the AM Generals. Interesting. So how did those ride? I've never been in one running. Ours will be restored eventually, but that's a while off yet. Also, I could have bought a WMATA Flx New Look (8282) for $3900 a few years ago but by the time I wwas ready to, it was gone. Hopefully it went to a good home. Also, I know someone who just bought a WMATA Fishbowl which is now restored in Richmond, VA. I love to learn more about Washington buses!
Fred Donaher
Curator
Commonwealth Coach And Trolley Museum
I wasn't the biggest fan of the AM Generals, but when they first came out in the mid 70's, the seats were made of some kind of itchy tweed material and the sides had carpeting on them. Those were finally replaced by the red vinyl seats and the carpeting was taken off the sides. I remember them rattling an awful lot, but they were the mainstays here for awhile. A couple had actually been repainted to the paint scheme the retired Flx New Looks and Fishbowls had, but that was right near the end of their life here. I think they would have looked pretty decent if the silver bumpers were replaced with black bumpers and repainted to the new paint scheme and had the roll signs changed to electronic signs.
The interiors of the fishbowls had all different color seats representing the older companies that they were acquired from. Some were green and orange, some orange and black and others had pastel plastic seats, kind of like what you would find in a fast food place! I think those were the 6700's. All of those were replaced as well to the current red vinyl as well.
Yeah...I remember hearing about carpeted buses from a 1976 Bicentennial brochure and that must have been the AM Generals. Only in the Seventies! I wonder what Flx New Looks would have looked like with carpet....
Anyway, we have an orange 1973 Fishbowl with those "diner" plastic seats in a Bird Egg Green...they don't even match the bus! I have also seen restored Fishbowls with mixed color vinyl seats...it's a great place to sit but does not exactly look original. Perhaps vinyl coloring spray would do the trick...
-F.
Wow, the buses ended up in a Bicentennial brouchure? I guess those AM Generals were so new and unique for the time, everyone was promoting them.
I used to have a laugh when I rode on the fishbowls with the plastic seats, since they were so different than the cushioned vinyl ones. I think those buses had silver rims, too.
Neat...how old were you then?
-F.
Now im in the early 30 & my father first rode the RTS bus was #2696 on M101 back in mid 1983.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Soon to be NYCT-MTA Traffic Checker
Hmm...in mid-1983 I rode a still fairly new Grumman 870 to the local mall to meet Captain Hot Wheels at the big toy car race. My contender was a 1980 Hot Wheels Dodge Omni 024...I was 6 years old. :)
-F.
I love riding on the Grumman 870 & i used to take the bus to school on M15 & M17 now M79 back in early 83. Grumman 870 only last 5 years before i was so piss off when i heard they pull all the Grumman 870 off the road back in 1984.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Soon to be NYCT-MTA Traffic Checker
David, I understand they were even newer that that; the NYC Grummmans were 1980 models and were pulled from service in 1984. NJ Transit rehabbed them and is just now retiring them, so they were good buses after all. I just helped restore a local 1979 Grumman that still looks and rides well. Long live the Grummans!
-F.
When the first RTS rolled out, I was in junior high (7th grade). A year later, August 1978, I visited the plant in Pontiac, Michigan, and saw a lot full of them waiting delivery, along with about half a dozen P8M4905 decks.
when the first RTS rolled out, i wasn't even alive.
Wow...you're young! How old are you? I promise I won't pick on you....I've been interested in buses since I was a baby. It's always good to see younger people get into them as well.
-F.
I'm 15 myself. I got into buses by accident. I didn't really care for them back in the day when trains were the best thing since sliced bread. But when my mom started working she'd take the bus and wait in the park for her to get off the bus and come home. After awhile I kinda started liking buses. Especially the RTS and the Grumman Hybrids.
My folks didn't have a car for many years, so that was my main way of getting around as a kid. We did pretty good. It was a nice, simple life and I really learned what its like to live on a set schedule. We had barely any Sunday service back then, but we would take taxis if we had to get out. Now that I drive, I look back at those bus riding days as a great experience and I know a lot of back ways to get around the area because of them.
It was cool, because all the bus drivers would get to know me and one gave me this cool book of stamps when I was 4 years old, as it was his last run before retiring. The good 'ol days!!
Wow...what a great recollection. One of our senior drivers here at Valley Metro (Roanoke, VA) told me about the old days of local transit and remembered when some of our museum buses were new. I really had a great ride talking to him about those old buses.
I found out not too long after that he passed away of cancer....may God rest his soul. This post is for you, Bill Collins.
Sincerely,
Fred Donaher
Curator
Commonwealth Coach and Trolley Museum
I used to depend on public transit a lot back when I was little, and my family went out a lot too. It's too bad that I never really get to ride the bus anymore. I haven't ridden any flxible bus for years, or any WMATA bus for that matter. Ride-On is even worse, since I haven't even ridden a ride-on bus since New Years Eve of 1999, and that bus was running a WMATA route (the Z2). I remember most of my younger childhood that my family always took the 16. Nowadays I usually ride the rail portion of SEPTA, and my dad drives his van around MD. My mom saw one of the people featured on a SEPTA schedule, and the driver signed the schedule for me. That was cool.
Yeah...those are the best looking buses of the modern era. BTW, I know where you can buy a Grumman hybrid for $4500; it's in upstate NY.
-F.
I remember when the RTS buses came out. I was going to 6th grade and used to catch #1227 on the B41 route (at the time, UP had Grumman 870 buses). I miss the Grumman buses more. Wouldnt it be funny to run #236 instead of #2270 in Yukon? The sight to see.
Right now I'm 14 going on 15. I guess I've had my interest in buses since I was a baby, since my family depended on the WMATA and then later SEPTA. I've wondered for quite a while where they came from and what they were called, and the history of the companies, so that's when I really got into it. I guess I have an interest for Neoplans since I sorta grew up on them and they have the coolest engines (the 3000 SEPTA series, of course), and the Orion Is and TMCs of Ride-On since I sat in the drivers seat of the Orion when I was little, and I used to Ride the TMCs forever. I even remember riding one of the WMATA New Looks and I lost one of my front teeth. I've also ridden the Bs, Ds, and Es of the Flxible metro fleet of the WMATA. It's just now I don't ride buses as much in MD anymore since we have our own transportation, so I miss out on all of the new Ride-On buses and WMATA buses. Anyway, When I first got here, I was really surprised to know how little I actually knew about transit, and how I'm not as obsessed as I thought I was, as well as my friends. But I love riding the new buses. I've ridden every type of SEPTA bus except for the minibuses (but they aren't actually SEPTAs, thought, right?) and the AM trolley buses.
Wow! How did you manage to visit the plant in Pontiac? What was it like? I was 19 months old at the time you visited the GMC plant and visited Michigan to see my family in 1987, the same year that GMC closed its doors to bus manufacturing...if only I knew to ask if we could do that as part of our trip.
I wish I could have visited the Flxible factory before it closed...I was about 19 when that happened and didn't find out they were defunct until I was almost 20. What a shame. :(
-F.
Wasn't easy, but luckily, Dad had a badge at the time (amazing what they'll let a cop on vacation do...). I wasn't allowed to take pictures in any of the plants (we got a tour of the truck plant across the street, as well), but the security guard at the gate did allow me to take pictures of the RTSs in the outside lot that were waiting to be delivered. If I can find where I put them, I'll scan them. As far as the plant itself, if you've ever been in any automotive assembly plant, they were pretty typical.
At that point in time, I knew there was a GMC model TH8201, but I had not actually seen it. My dad, an Old Look and New Look veteran of the 60s, even marveled at the total redesign, compared to what he used to drive. There were a bunch of 01s in the lot, and an early 03 for SEMTA (now SMART) of suburban Detroit.
Sweet. You know, it's funny; I have tons of family in Michigan and never toured an automotive plant. I did the Henry Ford Museum, but that's as close as I have come to an auto plant apart from catching the RTA acrosss the street from the Ford Cleveland Main assembly plant last summer. Unfortunately I can't now due to the fact that auto plants stopped tours due to inssurance regulations. Pity.
-F.
When the RTX was shown, I wasn't even a thought in my parent's eyes.
I remember the first RTS-II I ever rode was on Green Bus Lines, if I remember it was 1001. I was in Seventh Grade and this was circa 1981. I remember thinking that it was the coolest looking thing. I marveled at how the front and rear doors would 'pop' out. I also remember the driver complaining that the air conditioning left a lot to be desired (more like it sucked) and that there was no way to open any windows. Speaking of windows, I remember that squeaky rattle that the windows had. Needless to say, I always smiled when I saw those slope-back coaches, thinking "the future has arrived".
Those sound like the retrospect complaints of Valley Metro's drivers here in Roanoke when they look back on the Grummans we used to have. However, I loved them! We have one preserved in our fleet which has been retrofitted with Tran-Spec roof vents and a Flx Metro passenger side rear window; when the A/C froze up on a slow run last summer, we opened these up to help ventilation, yet people still balked about the heat.
However, they were, in all reality, in better off shape than when that happened 20 years before!
Fred Donaher
Curator
Commonwealth Coach and Trolley Museum
I was 11 years old and I thought it was weird and sort of cool looking at the same time. Since I grew up in the Bronx I used to see them on Bee Line routes which at that time were Club Transit, Liberty Lines Transit and Westchester Street Transit. The first slopeback that I rode on was GBL's #1005. The first 04 series RTS I rode was a brand new 1981 MaBSTOA bus. It was #2243 (assigned to 146th Street depot) on the Lenox Ave shuttle. Anyone remember the off-hours Lenox Ave bus shuttle that replaced #2 & #3 service during weekends and late lights?
Wayne
It still does and i remember 2243 when she arrived at QV when they got a whole mess of MaBSTOA RTS-04's.
I think you're thinking of the late night bus shuttle between 149th Street-7th Ave and 135th Street-Lenox Ave. The bus shuttle I was referring to operated while extensive work was being done on the #2 and #3 subway line along Lenox Ave in the early 1980's. This work took place during late nights (on weekdays) and the entire weekend which made it necessary to suspend #2 & #3 subway service between 110th Street and 148th-Lenox & 149th-Grand Concourse during these times. #2 subway service operated along the Lexington Ave line and #3 subway service terminated at 110th Street. Two shuttle bus services were used as a subsitute. The #2 shuttle was the heavily used route and it had the most frequent service. It operated from 110 Street-Lenox Ave to 149th Street-3rd Ave., Bronx. The lightly used #3 shuttle operated from 110th Street-Lenox Ave to 149th-AC Powell Blvd (7th Ave). We thought these bus shuttles were cool because you could transfer from the subway to the bus shuttle and back to the subway again. Plus the shuttles ran along at some good speeds since they only made the subway stops. Another thing that made them interesting was that buses from all MaBSTOA depots (and 126th Street depot) were used on the shuttle routes.
Memories - memories
Wayne
I was in high school and it was JBLs 300s, that later want
to gbl. In the mid 80s drove the slopebacks at jfk and lga
for a while.
How were they?
Strange at first because of the look of them but became a fast favorite of mine.
And these were RTS-01s or 03s right? The sloped-back design? If so that means they may not have been as bad as everyone wants us to believe.
Cool. must have been a treat to drive an RTS at JFK. How old are you now and how old were you back then?
-F.
It was fun over at jfk also drove some decks and mci out of there for clausen bus(became ny airbus) Then i was around 24-25 now 39 40 in aug.
Yeah, and GBL destroyed them.
Remember they also destroyed CTC RTS-03's as well
Also the 970-980 bowels were sent over and ruined too.
Bowels? Must have been s#!tty buses...LOL. I assume you meant "bowls"....ever rode fish bowels?
After five 16 hour days it feels like i have.lol
I was starting my freshman year in High School when SEPTA debuted their RTS Slopebacks. Instead of taking The El from 69th Street, I've rode on the route "D" (now 21) bus because it had the new RTS bus. I've thought it would sound like a Fishbowl because they were both built by GM, but it had a totally different sound to it (it did sound like a 6V92TA, but 1979 would have been too early for that motor). The A/C hardly ever worked on those before the rooftop retrofit, but they did look sleek.
The 6v92 was actually introduced in 1973; I'm not sure how much transit application they had before the early 80s, but you may be right on the money there. It's funny how the ADBs sound a world different from the New Looks.
-F.
It was 1981 and I rode it on the B54 out of Fresh Pond! At that time, Fresh Pond had RTS's and Grumman 870's, as well as the older GM's. I was only 5 years old, but I remember it like it was yesterday. Then the 3400 series came on the B61 a year later. That's when I realized that the two routes(at that time B61 went down Myrtle Avenue)came out of two different depots, B54 FP and B61 the old, now renamed 5th Avenue depot. Those were the days!
-B61 Leonard
Actually 5th Ave depot rec'd those 3400 series RTS in 1984.
Wayne
You're right. I meant a couple of years later. When I used to take the B61 from Downtown to my house, I would wonder why the RTS's weren't on this line, but on the other line (B54)! I wondered about a lot of things when I was young, still do!
B61 Leonard
Yes, that true. As you said you were very young at the time, but when NYCTA/MABSTOA first started getting ADB's some depots didn't get any. I never knew the reason why, but I heard it was some space problem which I don't understand because they were 40' X 102" like every other bus in the fleet at the time. The depots that didn't receive the ADB's were (NYCTA) FI, XT and (MABSTOA) WF & OHS. Of course XT closed , FI eventually received a bunch of new 1984 RTS. WF closed and it's buses went to WAL which received a few scattered 1981 RTS from other depots and eventually WAL also rec'd a bunch of the 1984 RTS (Approx 3495-3571).
Wayne
You were right on about the West Farms/Walnut relationship. When WF shut its doors for good, they sent its 1975-77 Flxibles to WAL (remember those 7700-7800 "Flxies" that were in such horrendous shape?). At that time KB had a ton of 1981 RTS's (2455-2579 approx) while Coliseum cornered the market on the 1982's with 2580-2582, 2586-2645 (2583-2585 were in Flushing). With the 1983's mostly in Manhattan (54th, 100th and 126th Streets, along with Hudson had the misfortune of having those), all that WAL was able to receive were scattered 2200's from 132 Street (now Manhattanville) and 146 Street Depots. I remember riding 2267, just before it was transferred to Queens Village, on the Bx19 in 1983. A year later, in 1984, Walnut received a total of 91 RTS buses numbered 3487-3577. Fifth Avenue (now JG) received 3400-3486, JAM got 3578-3650, UP 3651-3748 and CAS rounded out that 400 bus purchase with 3749-3799. Anyway, when the '84s arrived at WAL the remaining 2200s that they had were sent to QV--2247, 2258, 2259, 2263 and 2267 are among the pieces of garbage that stick out in my memory. Queens Vill then began its long run of exMaBSTOA junk with 2240-2279. Those buses went nicely with those 1983 beauties 3001-3022 (formerly of 126 St) and 3172-3198--what an incredibly sloooooow fleet that was! Of course, DOB continues to abuse QV to this day.
Mark
Mark
I remember seeing 3001-3022 & 3172-3198 on M15 formerly 126st Depot also 3160-3171 & 3199-3249 on M101/102 formerly old 100th Stree Depot. But i agree with u that those buses are really slow.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Soon to be NYCT-MTA Traffic Checker
3001-3022 I remember at 126 for short time ,but if I remember 3172-3198 was assigned to QV at very beginning when they arrived in 1983.
I always thought that those 2200 out of QV ran pretty good.It was the 3000's that ran like garbage and usally had me waiting for a 4400 suburban fishbowl(which usually was right behind a 3000)
I'll bet those suburban Fishbowls were nice; I sat in one for the first time (a 1966 model) at OMOT last summer. Those were nicely furnished for the time; almost like a jet airliner with large slanted windows!
-F.
These suburbans unfortunatley didn't have the hi-back seats.It was low backed and curved but cushioned.
Hmm...yeah, that would make a difference. I though it was neat to see high-backs in a transit coach, especially a New Look.
-F.
Mark,
This time is forever branded into my memory. You're right those WF/WAL Flxibles were in horrible shape, but that's how the typical WF bus was. WAL didn't do much better. WF/WAL did have a bunch of 9000's but they lost most of them to 100 Street and rec'd more 7700-7800 Flxibles (probably my least favorite new look bus) in return. KB did have a bunch of 1981 RTS. They had their original group (2253-2262, PA2443-PA2528 and the 6V-92TA equipped 2281-2300) but then KB became a "RTS" depot and they got most of the COL 1981 RTS which were (2263-2280, PA2529-PA2579) and of course KB's Grumman 870's went to COL. It was when the Grumman 870 were pulled from service the last time that COL rec'd a bunch of 1982 RTS from HUD. You're righht - those 1983 RTS were pretty slow and I was glad they really didn't come to the Bronx until late in their lives. I used to ride the 3100's at QV quite often along with the Blitz GM's. I thought this was interesting because QV's 1983 RTS fleet numbers were sandwiched between two 100St groups and prior to this the buses at NYCTA depots always had lower fleet numbers that their counterparts at MABSTOA.
Wayne
Sounds like we're the same age. I was almost five at the time myself and was still excited over our new Grumman 870s. I thought they were the neatest thing I'd ever seen!
-F.
The DOT-franchised routes got them at about two years before the TA, because in February or March 1978 I saw one running on Queens Boulevard in Sunnyside on what was then a Steinway express route, probably to Fresh Meadows or North Shore Towers. Even though it was a quick glance- I was on a '7' train passing by overhead at the time- it looked extremely strange.
The first RTS I rode was in August 1980 on the then-B58. I was on furlough from summer school at college upstate, or I might have ridden one sooner; in fact I remember seeing a few on the streets when I was last home two months earlier, but didn't have time to ride one.
The LED sign, huge wraparound windshield, relatively smooth, quiet engine (no grinding) and small, FRONT-FACING bucket seats seemed really weird. This must have been the first time for a lot of other riders, because they looked very confused when they got on. There were still loads of Fishbowls dating back to 1962 and Flxibles dating back to 1966 in service, and they looked downright puny compared to an RTS.
There seemed to be a lot of shifting of assignments in 1979-80 after years of stability. I started seeing weird things like 1973 Fishbowls out of JAM, 1968(?) Batwings out of FLU, and the same 1962 Bowls I grew up with on FLU routes running on ENY and FP routes!
It was even stranger when the Grummans started running in late 1981, I believe.
I just ran down the history of The Bronx in the early '80s, now lets move on to Queens. Firstly the first TA RTS didn't hit the streets until June of 1981 and that was bus 2201 in Manhattan. For you to ride a TA RTS in August 1980 it had to have been slopeback demo #200. That bus made its rounds all over the city along with Grumman demo #100. Bus #200 went back to GMC when the TA didn't quite like the positioning of the air conditioning unit in relation to the engine. GMC agreed to alter the rear of the bus and reposition the A/C. I believe that is how the transition from slope-to-straight back RTS's began. Can anyone clarify?
When the 1973 fishbowls came to JAM that, in my opinion, was the BEST fleet that my home depot ever had. In early 1980, while waiting for the Q43 I saw bus 6285 (fresh from Castleton) running on the Q17, I nearly fell over!! JAM was in the process of receiving 6200-6229 from Flushing and 6230-6329 from Ulmer Park and Staten Island. That fleet ran in JAM with its remaining 1963 GMC's and 4362-4391. The thing I remember about those 62-6300s were that they were transferred with their old Brooklyn and Staten Island roll curtains. There was many a bus running on Merrick Blvd. with B36, S103 or S107 side signs!
Mark
Right after that 4362 -4391 was x-fered to QV with all the other 43/4400's.Also at that time Jam didn't get one 6200 and that was 6204.That and FLU somehow also had 6311.Besides those the only other fishbowls FLU had were the TDH-5305's(the 8830's suburbans with Batwings)After that FLU if remember was mainly Flxibles (56/5700's and 7100's)
From what I recall, 1980 was the first year for the squareback, so the slope was probably a 79 at the latest. I used to prefer the slopeback design, but the squareback sure makes better sense for A/C positioning.
I always wondered how an early ADB (i.e. Grumman 870, slopeback RTS) would have looked with a New Look-type rear roof-mount A/C unit...that would have been a different look! I'll bet it would have been a lot more stylish than the later Sutrak-type box in the middle of the roof.
-F.
Now that I think about it, it was summer 1981, NOT 1980, when I first rode that RTS on the B58, which was based at FP, a Brooklyn-based depot that was located in Ridgewood, Queens.
The 1973 Fishbowls were my all-time favorite, thanks to their sleek design, easy-to-read front sign and nice ultramarine seats. Even the sound of the rattling windows when the bus hit a pothole was somehow enjoyable.
I remember coming upstairs to the street at the 179th Street terminal in November 1979 and seeing the distinct back of one. Assuming it was my desired Q76, I ran to grab it, only to discover it was a Q17! I initially thought the 17 was transferred from JAM over to FLU, but a few days later was riding the N4 to Valley Stream and, like yourself, saw several 62-6300s on the various Merrick corridor routes. Many didn't have the proper roll sign, so had to substitute cardboard or oak-tag signs with the route written in magic marker.
It was actually 7/81 caught mine on the B13 heading towards Spring Creek
Do you remember what day in July of 1981 this was? Hope I'm not purging for too much info, but then again, you're dealing with the same guy who remembers the first day the Gilligs rolled into his hometown to gradually replace the Flx New Looks....August 10, 1988.
Guess I'm just an abnormal human supercomputer.
-F.
No not at all,it was like the end of July(this I remember cause I just came back from Mrytle Bch.with my parents a week before and that summer was hot as h-e-double hockey sticks.
Hmmm..Myrtle Beach, the city of sin. Never been there, but my ex-fiancee was nice enough to cheat on me while she was there a couple summers ago (My reaction: "While you were wearing MY ring?!?" Hers: "Well, I took it off so I wouldn't FEEL so bad.").
Needless to say, it's a good thing I didn't marry her. Ironically, she was born around the same time you first saw an RTS.
Say, what were the buses like at Myrtle Beach? Bet they were neat-looking...
-F.
Really wasn't a bus buff then (more into subways),that and my parents wasn't big on hotel's then(camping was their speed)so we were o/s of town more less (except when we went to the mall to cool off from those 100 degree plus days.
Oak tags and written paper? That's a hoot!
You should have seen what happened last year when our TA changed its route numbers. The 94 Gilligs did OK for the most part (despite the stray pixels that have poked through since they were new), but the Luminators on the 91s went blank and so the route numbers were done up in vinyl letters on scrap advertisement cardboard. This continued for several months until the signs were finally reprogrammed. Even better are the 88s with the roll signs; they did "one size for all", which meant the tiny signs made for their dumpy little 25' Skillcrafts (that all the drivers hate with a passion) were retrofitted in the larger sign windows of the Gilligs. The naked flanks at each side of the blue signs were then covered by blue vinyl electrical tape! It's tacky up close, but from a distance, it works OK.
Your post just reminded me; I have a bus bank modeled after CTS (Charlottesville (VA) Transit Service) no. 819, which is also a 1981 RTS. I pulled it down from the cabinet to take a look at it, and it had gotten FILTHY! (I guess you can say it was a diRTy S bus.) I immediately cleaned off the roof and it is good as new.
Thank you for the reminder!
-F.
The first RTS bus I saw in Flushing was 1272. On the Q44 I believe. I forget what got "put out to pasture" when the RTS' came. Maybe it was the 6200-6229 that went to Jamaica. I wonder if anyone took a snapshot of those buses. They were cool.
Then from the 15xx series it was PA 1519 and PA 1520.
From the 39xx Series, it was 3935.
flx7595
If I remember correctly in 1980;FP had awhole bunch of 8000's that it received when XT closed up,about 3 or 4 THD-5301's(the 1000's)alot of 36/3700's and 4100 and 7100 Flxibles.That was also the same time FP started x-fering out its 6300's(ENY on the other hand was mostly 4300's and the 4100's FP didn't have).
I don't remember the exact date I rode one of the "new buses" (as I called them for many more years), but I was in second grade, which would make it late 1981 or early 1982. Anybody know exactly when they started running on the (then-)M18 or M104? My first ride was probably on the M18, possibly on the M104.
It's likely that you rode the RTS on the M104 first.
The M104 got RTS a couple of years before the M18. This is because some depots didn't receive any Grumman 870's or RTS in 1980/81. OHS which operates the M18 was one of them. AMS, which is still the depot where the M104 is assigned to did have some of the 1981 RTS
They (RTS) didn't start operating on the M18 (now M86) until mid/late 1983. This is when OHS rec'd their first group of 1983. Shortly before this it was possible also because OHS depot had borrowed a few 1982 RTS from HUD and 126th Street. I forget the numbers but I do remember PA1661 from 126th Street operating on OHS routes shortly before the 1983 RTS arrived.
Wayne
i remember back in 1983 or 1984 or so that 86th Street on the weekends used to run the GMC New Look buses (#6900's). They were so cool to ride on them. I miss them though
Then it must have been the M104, since I know I was in second grade at the time.
What's OHS? I'm not familiar with the depot acronyms except for the obvious ones, like AMS. The M18 ran out of 100th Street Depot, at least when the depot decals started appearing. Until then I didn't know why different routes had different types of buses.
In the early years of the RTS (until 1983 or so), each model had its own style of route display text. IIRC, the 1981 RTS (with the displays that scrolled down) had a lot of "via" information while the 1982 RTS (with the displays that scrolled across quickly) and 1983 RTS (with the displays with thicker letters that scrolled across slowly) had more "to" information, in different forms. For a while I had a looseleaf binder to keep track of the Manhattan routes. On each page I drew a complete strip map (transfers and all) and I listed four route displays: 1981 RTS, 1982 RTS, 1983 RTS, and New Look ("old bus") rollsign. For the ones that didn't apply, I don't remember if I left them blank or made them up. I also had a bus map from the period in the binder; it had the M4 on Riverside Drive at 110th and the M5 bumped onto Broadway due to some sort of construction north of there. It also had the M104 variation on 6th Avenue which I never had the opportunity to ride before it was cancelled. (Well, I had the opportunity but it simply never showed up when I waited for it.) In any case, said binder is long gone (I would pay good money to get it back).
It was around that time that my parents took me on a five-borough bus ride in an attempt to get this whole bus thing out of my system. Needless to say, it didn't work.
Sorry - OHS is 100 Street depot. In those days TA/OA buses had an abbreviation for it's depot on the fare box. Most were obvious, but here are some others that weren't so obvious.
FFS - 54th Street
OFS - 146th Street
OTS - 132nd Street
MAN - 126th Street (TA)
EW - Edgewater
XT - Crosstown
FI - Fifth Ave
I remember the M104 via 6th Ave well. It operated on weekdays but it's headways weren't as frequent at those on the regular route.
Wayne
That's funny; when our Grummans came to Roanoke in 1979, I called them the "brand new city buses" until I was five years old, which was around 1982.
-F.
I have been avoiding posting for a while now but I figured I'd throw my hat in the ring for this RTS thing. The first RTS bus that I saw was JAM's 1273 on Merrick Blvd. operating on the Q5 Merrick back in 1981. The first one I rode was QV's 1277 about a week later on the way to school on the Q43.
Mark
Neat. I assume that's how you got your handle name?
I'll give you three guesses how I got mine and the first two don't count. :)
-F.
The first RTS I spotted was JAM's 1273 on the "Q5 Merrick" and the first one I rode was QV's 1277 on the Q43 while heading to school. That was a big change because we would either get a 1970 T6H5305A fishbowl (QV had a ton of 'em...4326-4455) or a 1965 Flxible (most of the time it would be a 5600).
Mark
Once in a blue moon you got a 7100 out of QV (for me that was 7171 on the 88 alot)
It seemed that for the first year or so of the Q88's existence (it was born 9/16/74, right when QV opened.), it was almost entirely 1974 Flxibles. QV only had twenty of them; the range was 7155-74. Maybe they felt the newest route should use the newest buses.
It wasn't for almost a whole year that I saw anything else on the 88- not even 1970 Fishbowls. By late 1976, non-A/C 1962 Bowls and 1966 Flxibles did ply the 88, usually in rush hours.
The non-A/Cs seemed to dominate Hillside mainlines Q1,2,36 and 43 weekday midday and rush hours. Conversely, 'quiet' QV routes 12A, 31 and 75 almost always were 1970 Bowls. The 31 did use non-A/Cs a lot for school extras, as did the 75 in rush hours only.
Before QV opened, I believe all its 1966 Flxibles (5646-5700) ran out of FLU, while 5601-5645 remained there. When I started riding the bus in the early seventies, that was often the only model you'd see in downtown Flushing.
I'm not sure if QV got its 1970 Bowls from FLU or JAM, but FLU held on to fourteen of them (4442-4455) after QV opened. Of course, by then FLU was dominated by 1973 Bowls and 1974 Flxibles.
You right about rush hrs with the q88 now that I remember saw 5630 alot on the 88 and when QV got the 82 RTS Suburbans they started running the 4480/90's fishbowl suburbans on her during rush hour.
When QV opened #'s 4392-4441 (a total of 50) went over there from FLU. Buses 4442-4455 came over a year or so later. JAM I believe had 4342-4391 which also eventually made their way over to QV. Over in Brooklyn, ENY operated 4300-4341. Sixteen of them (4326-4341) were shipped to QV in the late '70s.
Mark
4300 if I remember correctly was the test bus for the EIP on NYCTA buses(the 60/6300's fishbowls)This bus used to run on the B20 alot when she ran out of ENY.
Wow...I would have loved to ride those old 70 Fishbowls and 65 Flxes!
Were the 1965 models anything like the Seventies models ride-wise or sound-wise? I've always been curious as this is my favorite type of bus yet the only year model I've ever rode was a 76. Also, I have rode both 1959 and 1976 model Fishbowls, but nothing in between; I seem to remember the 76 sounding like a Flx, but this was back when I was 10 years old so the memory is a bit fuzzy. I do recall from my ride at OMOT last summer that the 59 had more of a straight engine roar. Was the 70 similar to the original 1959s or more like the later model?
-F.
The 59's 65's and 70's all sounded pretty much the same. In the late 70's, the new transmissions (Allison?) started being used, which changed the sound, bridging the gap to the ADB sound. But before that, the New looks had a common 'dry' sound, similar to the old inlines, but a bit lighter (I hear the whole range of years at the Bus Festival)
Nice.....when is the next Bus Festival?
-F.
All the fishes I rode on sounded the same, except a '71 had a certain sound that the '72-on buses didn't or vice versa, you really had too listen hard, probably because the exhaust was at street level on the older ones. The newer ones seemed more throaty. The only exception I rode on were Green Lines Canadian models from 1979, they sounded different, I didn't like them.
The throaty ones must have been 8v71s. Also, how did the Canadian 79s sound different? Were they more like ADBs? Just curious...
-F.
They would just whine and always seem like they were changing gears because they would go from low to high RPM's they really were a cross between the standard fish sound and the RTS, kinda like they were going through puberty or something. They seemed a little lighter on their feet, but that could be my imagination. What is the difference between the fishbowl bus engine and the RTS engine? Why do they sound so different? The reason I think the older ones sounded different was because of the exhaust placement, I'm talking about NYCTA buses because I'm pretty sure that all the buses 6000-62xx were from'72-'73 and they all had the exhaust pipe up in the air (EIP?). But a bus like 6400 was a 1971 and had this slightly different sound, almost undetectable.
Those GM of Canada fishbowls (T8H-5307A) had 8V-71N engines along with the Allison 3 speed transmission (possibly the VR731). All NYC-DOT companies in Queens had them except Jamaica Buses.
Wayne
Were those the ones I saw on Queens/Steinway that had the triangular window next to the front door omitted ?
Yes, those were the newest ones that also had Wheelchair lifts. I think this is why the small window was left out. Queens Transit also had some older Canadians in the 770-780's range. These did not have lifts.
Wayne
JBL had the Canadian GM Fishbowls ( they were in the 970-980 range)and where x-fered to GBL at the end (retired in 1994 w/ the arrival of the TMC RTS-06's)
I remember those, and for the record, they were the only fishes I didn't care to ride on, although I seem to remember them being 1976 models. Getting back to the sound thing, the older ones also seemed to be louder and also sounded like a shhhh sound when accelerating.
They were 1976 but the manufacturer's plate did say GM/Cananda.
OK.
Do you mean from the driver's craw? That may have been the air actuation on the accelerator. Grumman 870s and Flx Metros especially have a lot of that sound from the front when taking off.
-F.
No I mean like if you were on the street or in your house and heard one go by it sounded like the engine but it was so loud it sounded like a fire extinguisher. Honest.
[JBL had the Canadian GM Fishbowls ( they were in the 970-980 range)and where x-fered to GBL at the end
(retired in 1994 w/ the arrival of the TMC RTS-06's)]
No - this is no quite accurate. JBL did indeed have these buses but they were from Pontiac, MI. They did have *v-71N engies, but they didn't have the same Allison transmission. I believe they had that 2-speed with overdrive.
Wayne
Were they the '76 models?
Ok,then I got them mixed up with 355-364(those and 615-629 at CTC)as Canadian fishbowl operated by the Coopers.Guess it was that bright green passenger standee window that faked me out.
Green Lines had 355-364 1979 Canadians. I was wondering, is engine swapping a common practice? I recall one of them having that whining sound of the RTS and not seeing it for a while and then riding on it and it sounded like any other fish. I think it was 361. All those GBLs were wrecked though. I can't remember the numbers of the Canadian JBLs or those '76's that were X-fered over. I remember Triboro 606-610 (1976) and 614 (1974). Plus 916 (1964) 951 953 959 (1967) 970 973 975 (1968).
I know that some of the them were sent to QS as well plus GBL did end up with JBL and CTC RTS-03's also(also I think CTC Grummans )
Also, I'm almost positive that NYC never had an 8 cylinder new look
bus. Especially the ones I'm talking about.
Fishbowl SDM's of the 1960's sounded much different inside than the transits, and had little resemblance to what they sounded like outside. I loved the sound, but could not understand it.
I remember first seeeing them in 1980 by Van Cortlandt Park on the Bee-Line...Of course, in the summer of 1981, saw a MABSTOA bus on 5th Ave after seeing Mayor Koch drool over one in City Hall Park earlier that week...I rode my first one in late 1981 (the day Anwar Sadat was killed) on the M-100 when it ran out of Amsterdam...All I remember about the number was the PA in front of it.
Wow...I didn't know Ed Koch was a bus enthusiast!
Imagine what would happen if he went on to drive for the MTA; he'd keep looking back at his front seat passengers every 15 seconds, asking "How'm I Doin'? How'm I Doin'?".
-F.
I was in Memphis,TN. Prior to the RTS the newest buses were AM Generals whinch finally brought the chimes (vs buzzer) to Memphis. The first RTS buses were in the 300 number series and like the AM Geneal buses had soft seats and introduced the touch strip vs the pull cord. The RTS was very futuristic and pleassanrt.
Yeah...the RTS is neat. Buzzers? UGH! I hate those. How long have bells been on transit vehicles? I know that bells were on transits as early as 1976. Before that is before my time; I'm sure someone else out there knows the answer.
-F.
On PRT/PTC/SEPTA's PCC fleet, The Pre-War air-electrics had the buzzers for the stop request signal and the Post-War all-electrics (that includes The Kansas City direct and Kansas City and Birmingham via Toronto) had the chime. I do not know if the chimes were original, but that is what I remembered of them.
In NYC they used bells as far back as the TDH5301's (at least those were the first buses I remember riding)for the NYCTA.The weird part was that NYCDOT (GBL,CTC etc & so forth) used the buzzers for signals.
In NYC some of the 9xxx old looks had chimes as did the very first of the new look fishbowls.
I was in Brooklyn and we went to Downtown Brooklyn--I was in 6th grade and begged to ride the "new bus". The bus was nice but rocked from side to side when moving and we actually got off since we were getting light headed from the rocking.
I liked the "spotlight" over the front door steps and the extra poush button "Passenger signal" over the rear door. I did notice three kinds of window hardware:
First set had metal latches parallel to the window slant midweay on the side. Second had metal push button on the bottom which were later replaced by plastic.
The last generation had Butterfly type latches- also metal at first and then plastic. I also remember in NYC they also had a manual rear window sign to show route number starting with the 1xxx bus numbers.
>>> also remember in NYC they also had a manual rear window sign to show route number starting with the 1xxx bus numbers. <<<
That sign was to show the run number, not the route number, there was one on the front also.
Peace,
ANDEE
IME, the rear sign was usually set to the route number. I often set it myself. I don't think the rear sign had an 'X' in the first position, so express routes used the old numbering scheme of (e.g.) M##X instead of X##.
On MABSTOA buses this run number sign was usually used to display the route number.
Wayne
I wasn't even born yet when PTC ordered 100 TDH 5303's. BTW, did any of SEPTA's predecessors ordered 5301's (PTC, Red Arrow, etc)?
I've never heard a buzzer in NYC (I was born in NYC in 1974). The only buzzer I've ever heard on a bus is on London's Routemasters, specifically the button at the top of the staircase (the other buttons all rang the bell).
Okay, which model of NYC bus was the first to feature a sign that lit up when the bell was rung? What exactly did the sign say?
For bonus points, when "STOP REQUESTED" signs were retrofitted during the Blitz rehab, the feature was given a catchy name. What was it?
If memory serves me right, the Grumman 870's first had the light up sign requesting a stop.
On the Blitz rebuilds, that "STOP REQUESTED" feature was called the "buzz-off" I believe.
Didn't the '77 Flxibles have it?
If memory serves me right, the Grumman 870's first had the light up sign requesting a stop.
Nope. There was an earlier Flxible model -- I'm not sure which one -- that had the sign. I don't know how many buses had the feature, since I saw it pretty rarely, but the language on the sign was BELL RUNG.
On the Blitz rebuilds, that "STOP REQUESTED" feature was called the "buzz-off" I believe.
That is correct.
It was a either a 7000 or 9000 series Flxible .All I remember is that it had the passenger standee windows.
The 7000 & 9000 series Flxibles DID NOT have a bell rung sign in them, unless it was something that was added to them later on while they were in service, after they left Jamaica depot. I'm a big Flxible new look fan and I know there was no such sign, especially on the 7000 & 9000s. The first lighted sign I ever saw on any new look was when the 5000 series Blitzs hit the streets.
Also, as some of you have been talking about the 1973 Fishbowls, those were my favorite GMC's new looks of all time also.
And the 1973 Flxible 7000 series new look was the first bus purchased by NYCT with the kneeling feature.
BIG AL
It prob never ran out of JAM then ,but FP then ENY (it might have been at QV also )had this Flxible with a Bell Rung sign: it was only on 1 bus as a test (like 8381 as the test bus for the lower position side destination signs)
It ran in Manhattan as well. I saw it once in a while on the M18 (or the M17?).
I suspected it was just one bus but I was never quite sure.
So we have BELL RUNG and the standard STOP REQUESTED. What else have such signs said? The Champaign-Urbana Mass Transit District 1981 Crown Ikarus artics (still in service but falling apart) have BUS STOPPING.
Looking from that photo on your post. Look's like the bus is fine by me. As recording to the link on your post. The Articulated's where rebult and in passenger service on high ridership route's.
Dominick Bermudez.
Those buses are falling apart. The doors don't close all the way. The rubber pieces connecting the two sections of the bus are falling off. They break down often.
The artics are used on the 21 Quad and 26 Pack lines, both loops around the UIUC campus. Each route runs with five-minute headways for most of the day; where the two routes overlap, there are 2.5-minute headways. (Much of the two routes also overlap the 23 Shuttle East, with ten-minute headways, and the 22 Illini, also with ten-minute headways.)
Service on the campus routes is free, so boarding is permitted through the rear doors, which are opened and closed by the driver just like the front doors. Unfortunately, drivers often close the doors on boarding or exiting passengers, and (as I know from personal experience) it hurts.
Those Crown-Ikarus buses are the most hideous thing to come across the board this side of the Orion II.
Weren't those buses also joined up with Orion, and then called the Orion III?
I think that was an Orion-Ikarus design. Ikarus has always been able to create some hideous beasts. In fact, they've NEVER created anything worth looking at.
I suppose you're right. They are the boxiest buses out there today, I'm certain of that. However, at least the ones I've ridden in Miami and Philly, they seem to have a nice ride and the engine is interesting, especially since Orions have the same engine without the wine.
I'm not a fan of The Ikaruses (Ikari?) either, but they are not as boxy as a Gillig (at least an Ikarus has a slight bulge on the side, and a Gillig's sides are completely flat).
I'll take the Gillig over an Ikarus any day. It's a MUCH better-looking bus.
-F.
The Gilligs are sorta nicer since they have that curved roof whereas the Ikarus, or NABIs, have a completely flat roof. Overall, the NABIs are more boxy than the Neoplans, although I like the front of the NABIs and basically the overall design (other than the front) of the Gilligs, if you ignore the completely flat sides.
Gillags are not nice,I couldn't stand the fact that i always got one on the N6 and when I was in Vegas I passed them up to get one of there D60HF's or NABI 436 Artrics.
True. The Gilligs are good-looking buses overall. While not as sleek as the RTS (or the no-longer made Flx Metros they are beginning to replace), they are a nice design.
-F.
They are just a box. They look like the box the bus came in.
Yeah, they're not exactly sleek, but they're OK. However, after spending lots of time this past month restoring one of the Grumman 870s that our Gilligs replaced, they look old and gray in comparision.
-F.
Don't feel bad....a friend recently acquired a GM TDH5103 and TDH4510....got to visit the two old buses a couple weeks ago, and I felt like I was stepping back into the dark ages. Even getting behind the wheel of a TDH5304 seemed like ancient history....
(I drive RTS's and NFI D40LF's every day of the week....)
I worked at a TA which had RTSes, Flx Metros, and NFI LFs, yet I STILL preferred driving the Metros over all of them ANY day. I guess it's just what you're used to.
-F.
Well, most buses are boxy in some sort of way. The Gilligs, although they have flat sides, sorta have other decent design features. They have teh nicest rear end with the vents that I have ever seen, Orions come in second for that. In the front, the part where the destination sign is above the window is sorta stylish. It also has a curved roof, something that most modern buses, including Flxibles, do NOT have. I don't exactly love the design of the Gillig Phantoms, but they aren't THAT bad.
I agree. Both look like something I ate and dropped, especially the Orion II; EEEYUCH!!!
-F.
Here's a pic of 8381 with the lower destination sign:
This bus is the only TMC from 1990 (8000-8396) that had the lower destination sign. I see some 8400-8566 series buses with the lower sign and some are high up. Which way do they want their destination signs to be?
Q46#8381Gary
Q32#8481Gary
Sorry but the pic is unavailable. Geocities only allows you to post stuff on their site and not any others. Sorry about the broken link.
M6#8500Gary
8381? If my memory serves correct, that was a New Look rebuilt as an ADB by Flxible. It is also the only surviving rebuild known to be in existence and is preserved by the Ohio Museum of Transportation.
-F.
In NYC,8381 is a TMC 1991 RTS-06(actually it has always been a GM based design;the fleet # was previously assigned to a 1965 MaBSTOA GM TDH-5303A with Bus-a-Rama signs and no passenger standee windows.)
The bus you're thinking of was originally 1974 Flxible New Look #900 from Cincinatti. It was rebuilt with the same number (900). It also made a stint in Baltimore as #8381. I don't think it ever went to NYC.
Actually, it was 800. I didn't realize you guys were talking about a NYC bus. My bad!
-F.
Well I positively remember the 9xxx Flxibles having that Bell Rung sign in them, it was physically smaller that the Blitz buses and the RTS. Plus I'm pretty sure it lit up white. I'm a fan of the new look Flxibles too and I remember riding them home from high school in the early 1990's out of Ulmer Park Depot.
I know that one of the Blitz stop requested signs ended up on a RTS-04.It was 3313 which finished up at FP (or was x-fered to ENY like a few others at the end.)
Where was this sign located? You mentioned you rode them in the early 90's. I rode them in the late 70's and early 80's and I know for a fact there was no such sign at the time.
BIG AL
The "Bell Rang" sign was put on several MaBSTOA 77-7900s and 92-9300 Flxibles in the mid-1980s. Many of those buses were transferred to other depots where they were spotted in service. I recall JAM having 9282 with this feature.
Mark
They even had little yellow signs throughout the Flxs. proclaiming:
THIS BUS EQUIPPED WITH
A BUZZ OFF FEATURE
BELL WILL RING ONLY
ONCE-and SIGN WILL LIGHT-THIS PERMITS THE
DRIVER TO CONCENTRATE ON
YOUR SAFETY (OR SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT)
I have one of those signs somewhere in my collection
Peace,
ANDEE
No, that was the notice on the Blitz-rehabbed buses.
And the language was BELL RUNG. I distinctly remember engaging in an argument over whether it should be BELL RUNG or BELL RANG.
what exactly is the proper grammar. nyct waas probably incorrect judging by their stupidity.
No it wasn't. The Blitz buses had STOP REQUESTED, the Flixbles had BELL RANG. And I distinctly remember thinking what kind of grammar do the folks at Flxible know?
Do you mean the "BELL RANG" sign or the Flxible name itself? If the latter, there's a big reason for that.
-F.
Too bad Flxible didn't have an articulated bus, that way they could have called it the "Flexible Flxible." Ok, not enough sleep for me, must go to bed!!!
That would have been neat! I'll bet they would have been a hit in DC. BTW, your WMATA Metro is all finished and on the way. :)
Fred Donaher
Star City Customs
Thanks!!! I can't wait to see it!
I guess an articulated Flxible would look similar to a NABI artic.
Somewhat; only I think a Flx Metro artic would look better. I've seen Canadian GM Classic artics, and they looked good; kind of makes me wonder what a Flx New Look artic would look like. Bet it would be neat!
-F.
I mean the BELL RANG sign, I believe Flxible began as a manufacturing company for the side cars on motorcycles? And they invented a way for the side car to be able to flex next to the bike? So for the patent they called it flxible? I do not recall exactly why but I think it was something like that. Fill me in.
Sure thing. Here is how Flxible got their name:
When started out in 1913, their first developed product was a side car that "flexed" with the motorcycle. In the beginning, they were known as the Flexible Side Car Co. Later, they sought patents and such for their innovations. When they found that "flexible" was too broad a word to copyright, they dropped an "e" and the Flxible name was born (I believe this was about 1919). Funeral car bodies and bus manufacturing came along later on, along with truck bodies and RVs.
This from is the info I have on top of my head; if anyone has any to add or correct, be my guest.
-F.
What a great name for a bus manufacturer, too, implying their product is easier to maneuver. Beats the hell out of "Orion" any day :).
I agree. Long live Flxible!
-F.
Plus also originally they have built intercity buses exclusively until Flxible bought out Twin Coach (which was the original "New Look" bus long before GMC came out with their Fishbowl). After that, they were transits and suburbans exclusively. The Flx New Look borrowed off The Twin Coach. I've forgot the dates when all of this happened.
September 1952 is when Twin Coach was bought out by Flxible; under contractual agreement, buses from that point on were to carry both the Flxible and Twin Coach names. This was accomplished by the use of a dual nameplate up front and was carried out on all coaches there forth, including the initial Flx New Looks of 1961 and 1962.
The New Look windshield was indeed a modernized take on the Twin Coach design; in fact, it was introduced on the 1960 Flxible transit coach, which was unique as it featured the New Look front end on an Old Look body. Apparently only one of these was produced; it is CTA coach no. 8499, which is preserved in Chicago, presumably as part of their own historic fleet.
Hope this info helps; it's right off the top of my head!
-F.
Thanx Flx. I remembered seeing that in the "Bus world" Encyclopedia of buses. Just recently, my memory has become Swiss Cheese.
No problem; I read that originally from Bus World Encyclopedia in 1988 and remember it to this very day. Sorry to hear about your Swiss Cheese memory; mine has been very Gouda to me. :)
-F.
My mistake. I remember engaging in the argument but I don't remember which side Flxible was on.
i remember in 1992 or 1993 or so #9178 operated out of UP and had this feature as well.
It was in the same spot as the Stop requested sign is in on the RTS. It was a little smaller than the RTS one probably only 8 or 9 inches. If I remember they were silver colored and lit up white. By the way I was thinking about it and I remember being on #'s 9224 to maybe 9235?
Plus they had 9007 and 9008. Also I was never on any 7xxx Flxible so I don't know about them.
I LOVE Flxible New Looks! They are my favorite bus of all time. That's what inspired my BusTalk handle and eBay ID!
-F.
JBL had two of the 950s with the buzz-off system on them.
It had a small light that came on when the cord was
pulled. The bad thing was the light was down next to the
handle for the doors and hard to see. They had a sign
saying "this bus has the buzz-off system the bell will
ring only once" (or close to that) it was a test thing
they did. It was only on this pair i recall 952 as one the other i don't.
I was a senior in H.S. when the first RTS to run in NYC, test bus #200
was running out of Jamaica depot. I remember getting on it for the first time after getting out of school, in the afternoon at the first stop of the Q4 which was 167th st & Hillside ave. at the time. People used to see that bus coming and wait for it. Then there would be a big mob of people fighting to get on the bus. It stopped right where I was standing and I was one of the lucky first ones to get on. I was very impressed, especially with the way the back doors slid opened, but overall I did like Grumman Flxible test bus #100 better.
BIG AL
I remember the first RTS I rode was on the M14 AvD bus whcih stopped right across the street from my building on Columbia St. I was 14 and in 8th grade. My first impression was on how strange the interior looked being I was used to Flexibles and its seating arrangement.
True...most modern bus purchases stem from basically 80s designs. For example, Valley Metro (Roanoke, VA) began purchasing Gillig Phantoms in 1988 (based on a design introduced in 1980) and has since bought 1991 and 94 models. Now that the 88s are getting older, it looks like they will be replaced with new Gillig Phantoms.
New York MTA received its first RTSes in 1981 and fell in love with them. Today, MTA continues to rely on the RTS and is still buying new ones by the droves.
Yes, it looks like the 80s have indeed had an influence on new bus purchases. I wonder what's in store for bus trends 20 years from now...
-F.
To be honest the 5 HEV RTS's is going to be the last RTS order for NYCTA for along time(unless they come up w/ a RTS low floor model)It looks like a mix of Orions ,New Flyers & MCI's for the long haul.
Well, I'm sure they will keep their existing RTSes in service for years to come; they have a ton of them as that's been the majority of their new bus purchases for the past 20 years.
-F.
Yeah, What is Next?
Well, where I am, other than the city, and where I go, there is not one RTS. I go to DC, Philadelphia, where there are rarely any RTSs now, and I only see them in NY, where i never go. So, I can't keep up with the exact changes in RTS designs, but I know the differences.
"MBTA (When they're 1984 and 1985 buses go they will be 18 and 19)"
The MBTA does not have any 1984 RTS buses, the first RTS buses the MBTA bought came in 1985 and are numbered 8400-8599. They are not numbered for the year built.
The longest lasting buses the MBTA ever owned were the 1966/67 built TDH-5303 and TDH-4519 fishbowls. Some of them lasted to 1995, and were retired after 29 years of service. What is interesting is that some of the buses from these very same series were retired as early as 1975 after only 9 years of service. A change in maintenance practices and the poor performance of Flxible and AM General buses in the MBTA fleet resulted in the attitude change as far as fishbowl retirements went in the 70s and 80s. The 5303s and 4519s that made it to 1995 were rebuilt in 1983 and 85 after more than half of the buses in the same group were already scrapped.
How about the fact that the New Looks do not have wheelchair accessability nor do they kneel, maybe in our politically correct world of the 80's and 90's, those factors played heavily to the retirement of the New Looks?
But kneeling features and a wheelchair lift can always be retrofitted onto a Fishbowl. BTW, aren't there some Canadian-built Fishbowls out there that would have those features?
How about the fact that the New Looks do not have wheelchair accessability nor do they kneel...?
That was not always the case. There were several deliveries of later New Looks that had wheelchair lifts (real lifts actually built into the stepwell as opposed to Chattanooga lifts) and many of the Canadian New Looks built in the late 70's and early 80's have kneeling devices.
Perhaps the styling of the New Look is not exactly what we would call modern in 2001, but features and maintenance wise, I consider every bus since the TDH 5105 to be modern. Since the early 1940's, the overall workings of a transit bus really have not changed -that- drastically.
Right on; since the 40s, the basics have been the same, with mere styling, accessibility, and technology changes (i.e. lifts, engines, T-drive, etc). It's neat to find out that something that is now "new" to the transit world has been there for a long time (i.e. kneeling Triboro Flx New Looks in 1974, aluminum wheels on OCTA Flxibles in 1976, the 6v92 engine was introduced in 1973). Truly, buses have always been highly advanced vehicles in their own right.
-F.
Didn't NYC's New Looks kneel?
The only New Looks that knelt were the 1975(7500's)and 1976's(9000's)Flxibles.
Those knelt too? Neat! I wonder how many of the NY 75 and 76 Flxes are still around...
-F.
None they were retired in 1994 with the arrival of the Orion V's(I think LIBus retired their's at the same time -these were kneeling buses as well)
Are any of these Flxes preserved and still kneeling? I'd love to know...
-F.
Unfortunately the NYCTA did not preserve any 7500 or 9000 series Flxibles.The only ones they did were 5165(a 1964 non a/c model),4727(a 1969)and 7340(the 1st model based on the 7500/9000 built in 1973/74).
Isn't 7595 at ENY as a training bus? Is that a kneeling bus ?
I think he's talking about museum buses.
Yes, it is. This group (7500-7659, 7700-7937) were the first NYCTA buses with the kneeling feature.
Wayne
Poop. Well, it's good that they at least saved those buses, especially 7340. That's a good-looking bus.
-F.
No - NYCTA first kneeling buses were the 1975 Flxibles (7500-7659, 7700-7937) and by this time NYCTA had already purchased their last GM new look.
Wayne
Believe it or not, Flxible New Looks had a kneeling feature as early as 1974. While most think of this as a Grumman 870 feature, Triboro Coach of NY had a fleet of kneeling New Looks. I understand that some of these may have also been lift-equipped from the factory. If so, this would have predated the 1990 ADA compliance bill by almost two decades.
Whether GM had this type of technology at the time, I'm not sure; however, I was surprised to find out this amazing fact about the older buses.
-F.
The 1976 Flxible New Look transits purchased by NJDOT all kneeled. The suburbans did not.
I don't remember the CTC Flxibles(800's series)being kneeling buses.
Yeah I know about Flxibles having the kneeling feature on at least the 1977 models. But talk about retrofitting 3500 buses with wheelchair lifts? I think you guys too me too literally, but not having those features certainly didn't help keep those things aroung longer.
>>>The MBTA does not have any 1984 RTS buses, the first RTS buses the MBTA bought came in 1985 and are numbered 8400-8599. They are not numbered for the year built.<<<
Nevertheless, they will be another group of RTS that last until their 18th birthdays.
>>>Some of them lasted to 1995, and were retired after 29 years of service.<<<
I'd like to know how many of these buses lasted that long. Any less than 65 doesn't count.
>>>What is interesting is that some of the buses from these very same series were retired as early as 1975 after only 9 years of service.<<<
GASP!!!!!! NINE YEARS!!!!!! But, I thought that New Looks were built tough and were designed to last 30 years. But these lasted 21 years shorter than that. Oh my god, is hell freezing over. I've never heard of any RTS in normal condition being retired at age 9, not even the RTS-01s. That's pathetic.
>>>A change in maintenance practices and the poor performance of Flxible and AM General buses in the MBTA fleet resulted in the attitude change as far as fishbowl retirements went in the 70s and 80s.<<<
Yeah, I heard that when thngs started looking up for MBTA, the RTS rolled in at about the same time. I'm not saying they were the savior of the system, but I believe they made things ALOT easier. And so you're saying to me that Fishbowls built back in the 60s, which was when buses were built to last 30 years, were retired and scrapped before their 15th birthdays? Wow, my fwagile wittle mind had been warped. I laways though New Looks lasted in upwards of 20 years. So much for that.
Thank you rtspcc, your information is priceless.
I've never heard of any RTS in normal condition being retired at age 9, not even the RTS-01s. That's pathetic.
How about 124 RTS-06's being retired at age six?! It's happening right here right now!
They weren't made by GM and no one ever continuously plugged an RTS-06 lasting 30 years even though I'm sure they can. It sickens me that it's happening though.
About 75 of the MBTA's older fishbowls made it to 1995. The MBTA's 1966 fishbowls that did not make it to 12 years of service were not the victims of bad design but bad maintenance and repair policies. Remember that the Feds will allow a bus to be retired after 12 years of service no matter what condition good or bad it is in. During the 70s, the MBTA took this policy to mean it could run buses into the ground and not have to worry about repairs. Most of those MBTA fishbowls that were retired early had moderate to heavy accident damage that was repairable but the MBTA chose to do no work and wait for new buses. When the new buses (AM Generals) turned out to be complete junk, the MBTA changed their policy and began performing major repairs on fishbowls that needed work, and later sent 150 out to be rebuilt in 1983 and 85. Note that the MBTA chose to rebuild GMCs from 1966 and 1970, but let Flxibles from 1972 and 1975 be scrapped. The MBTA never had any serious frame or corrosion problems with their 1966 or 1970 fishbowls, and all of them could have run to 25-29 years if the MBTA had spent the money on repairs. The MBTA's canadian built fishbowls from 1980 were not as well a made bus. Many of these had significant corrosion problems by the time they were retired in 1995 as well (yes the 1980 fishbowls only lasted as long as the last of the 1966 fishbowls)
I'll admit that's not bad. Most TAs do what MBTA does and chooses to scrap and retie buses for little reason. NYCTA comes readily to mind with scrapping 1986 and 1987 RTS buses.
Also, are you serious the Canadian GM Fishbowls had corrosion problems? I've never heard that about any GM bus. But that just goes to show you even the NEW LOOK, has problems.
The MBTA had more bulkhead problems with their Canadian GMCs than the older Pontiac-built ones. The 1980 buses were pretty beat up by 1995. I had some mean distance between failure rate numbers for MBTA buses at the time, and what was interesting was the 1966/1970 fishbowls had much better numbers than the 1980 built units by the end of service. I don't have the actual numbers handy now though but I think it was something like 8 to 9000 miles between failures for the 1966/1970 groups and 4 to 5000 miles between failures for the 1980 group. The 1985 RTS fleet was getting about 10,000 miles at the time.
I don't care when it comes out -- I am NOT going to buy it. Not until maybe the second release, after all the initial bugs are worked out.
I always love to see computer folks rush out to buy some new release the day it comes out, and then they're disappointed because the thing doesn't work right away, and needs a ton of tweaking to get to run properly.
No thanks, I'll just sit back, be patient, watch everyone else cry about the problems, and wait until the reworked release comes out, and by then the price will most likely have gone down too in some discount outlets.
Enough already, please!!!!!
The RTS may or may not be the best thing since the invention of the wheel. That is NOT what really counts.
When I'm standing on a corner waiting for a bus, I want to know that the bus will arrive (when it's supposed to) and get me to my destination (when it's supposed to) in one piece. Period.
- - -
As for "modern" versus "old" bus designs, I offer this thought: If the Toronto Transit Commission and other north-of-the-border agencies can keep their New-Looks well-maintained and running reliably long past their expected useful lives (thus saving the Canadian taxpayers LOTS of money over the cost of new buses), then More Power To Them!! A good-quality "old" bus is far more deserving of respect than a lousy "new" bus.
- - -
As for "facts" versus "opinions": Everybody in this group has enough of both to go around. The key is to identify each for what it is. If it's an opinion, say so. If it's a fact, support it with evidence. If you're not absolutely sure of something, then a good-faith disclaimer (e.g. "I seem to remember..." or "to the best of my understanding") will work very nicely.
- - -
Finally, insults serve NO purpose other than to sink this group to a VERY low level. All of us should be adult enough to offer opinions, facts, and ideas without resorting to name-calling.
'Nuff said.
>>>A good-quality "old" bus is far more deserving of respect than a lousy "new" bus.<<<
I always say that. But many sem to feel that that phrase only counts if it's a New Look.
But your post was well said and well thoguht out. Although, I don't remember offering up any insults. As for all the RTS arguments, I don't mean to be a nuisance to posters such as you, but I don't like being attacked either. Also, if I have an argument that's fit to take down another one, I feel I should voice it. Isn't that what this board is for?
But, I am sorry to you. But I do feel stronly about the RTS and I'm tired of it being trashed by New Look enthusiasts and such. That's pretty much my only problem.
Thank you Gotham. I'm tired of seeing the same posts up here.
B37#823Gary
Amen.
Thta's terrible! Surely they could have rebuilt the Flx New Looks and made them run just as long (if not longer) than their GM counterparts. These were great buses built tough; what a shame they were killed off before their time!
-F.
The MBTA Flxibles had corrosion problems on some after only a few years and when they would develope any kind of frame/bulkhead problems, you would have to rip the floor out to get to the problem to fix it, not so with GMCs. The MBTA Flxibles were nice when new but did not age well. I think most cities found that to be the case, and I can think of other examples where older GMCs were rebuilt for continued service and newer Flxibles were scrapped or at least not rebuilt and scrapped at the same time as much older GMCs (New York, Philadelphia, Washington come to mind, all places that sent GMCs out for rebuild but not so for Flxibles).
The only places I can think of that did major rebuild work on Flxible new-looks in the 1980s were Monterrey-Salinas CA (just retired them) and Orange County CA (sold some of them to Lexington Kentucky). There were plenty of properties that rebuilt GMC new-looks (Boston, Philadelphia, New York, Washington, Milwaukee, Atlanta, and many small agencies).
New Looks are generally long-lasting coaches in both GM and Flxible form; for example, HRT or Hampton, VA is just now retiring their 1977 Flx New Looks (a few of their 76 Flxes went on to serve Blacksburg, VA through the end of 1999 and went on to private owners, all running like a top), and we have a 1966 GM 5303 in our transit museum with over one million miles on its original engine that is still running.
Valley Metro (Roanoke, VA) kept some of its 1976 Flx New Looks through 1994 and only retired them for the sake of having shiny new buses that were ADA-compliant.
Also, I rode a 1959 5301 in Cleveland last summer that ran just like new. 42 years later, that old boy is still running strong, thanks to a museum staff that still believes in their valiant old coaches.
-F.
Isn't Hampton part of the Penntran system? I know that a couple of their Flx new looks came up here to Aqueduct race track for shuttle service (don't know if they're still there)
So Roanoke had Flx new looks and according to another post, Gilligs in the late 80's and '90s. I passed through there once in '89 and only saw 35 ft Grummans, and wondered what else was there.
Were the Flx New looks in both cities 6v or 8v? (southern VA seemed to lean towards 8v, except for 35 footers. TRT's 35ft RTS's were even 8 cylinder!)
Really? Shuttle track service? That's interesting...where are you located?
The Hampton buses are indeed former PenTran units; one, in fact, is preserved by us. Valley Metro (Roanoke) had some 35 ft. Flx New Looks still in service when you passed through; these were 6v71 powered. Same with the Grummans you saw; these stayed around until 1994 when they were retired for new Gilligs, which slowly came in since 1988 to gradually phase out the much-preferred Flx New Looks.
We also have a Valley Metro Flx New Look preserved in our collection; in fact, we just finished restoring a Valley Metro Grumman to original paint scheme. To see each bus, check out our website:
www.arcticboy.com/buses/savebus.html
Great to see someone out there who follows VA transit history!
Fred Donaher
Curator
Commonwealth Coach and Trolley Museum
You know, now that I think about it, I believe I have ridden an RTS with a 6v71N engine. One day in 1999 I went to Bush Intercontiental Airport in Houston and I saw a bucnh of 30ft. RTS buses. It was hard to board them becuase they were car agency buses. But I used the clever ruse that I was lost and needed a ride to another part of the airport and so I was off. The engine sounded like a cross between a Grumman and an RTS and was really quiet in a way. It was a good ride, even if it lasted for a minute. In fact, I'm going today.
Yes, Avis had a bunch of them. Hertz also had some shorty RTS but I know they repowered theirs with 6V-92TA engines.
Wayne
I remember riding an Avis RTS in Florida, and it sorta sounded lke an RTS, yet it didn't. I can't campare it to the engine of a grumman since I've never ridden one before.
You should come down to Roanoke; we have just restored a Valley Metro 1979 Grumman Flxible 870, and it sounds great!
Fred Donaher
Curator
Commonwealth Coach and Trolley Museum
Wow...I'm agreeing with Trevor...mark the date.
-Hank
The Champaign-Urbana Mass Transit District is still running some of those NJT Flxibles, as well as (IINM) a handful bought new in 1980. See the roster and the MTD's equipment page.
What are you talking about the 870's lasted a total of 19 years, they served their time and proudly at NJT.
Tone
Not to be the rain on the parade or the cheese on a perfectly good cheeseless sandwhich, but the Grummans had to rebuilt and when buses get rebuilt their age starts over. That's why no one considers the 7000 and 7500 series RTS buses in NYC to be the oldest buses in the fleet. So technically, the Grummans lasted only 13-14 years at NJT. NJT's original Flxibles lasted about 15-16 years and thier Metro As about 12-13 years.
"As for Queens, from what I've heard they can't handle MCIs in any depot they have. Plus they could easily be vandalized by
neighborhood youth or people who just want something to cut up or throw rocks at."
So the TA doesn't trust the people of Queens with it's MCI equipment. Cmmon, doesn't everybody deserve them?
I've seen the express buses in Queens (and been on a few on local routes at Stengal) and the MCI's are much nicer.
Plus don't Queens residents (especially underserved southeast Queens) have a longer ride into the city?
It's only fair that those with the longer express bus rides should get the nicer buses.
It's only fair that every depot get some MCI's, so Stengal, Jamaica, and Queens Village have some.
And in addition sometimes I've seen Stengal run a local bus on the X51, usually a 6xxx series Orion. The seats may be felt but that aint no express bus.
Everyone deserves them but everyone won't get them. That's life. The transit dependent will get what the TA wants them to have and the people who have a choice will be sent the good stuff as an incentive to keep riding. That's business and that's life and life is not fair my friend.
BTW, the X1 is about 25-40% longer than the X68.
"And in addition sometimes I've seen Stengal run a local bus on the X51, usually a 6xxx series Orion. The seats may be felt but that aint no express bus."
It was fairly common up until about 6 months ago to see the 51xx RTS's on the X63 and X64. Like you said, the seats may be felt, but that aint no express bus.
I've seen:
4215 X63
4216 X63
4597 X64
8975 X63
5151 X64
9359 X68
507 X51
538 X51
Now let's see 4448 on the X51.
also you see it the other way around:
116 Q32
118 Q74
611 Q46
621 Q75
106 Q14
138 Q15
108 Q27
119 Q48
Go figure!
B61#823Gary
A few short years ago... this (local buses make express runs) was quite common on Staten Island routes. In the early 90's I remember seeing plenty of Ulmer Park's 1984 RTS (3600's) on the X28, X29 too.
Wayne
I'm coming into this one a little late, but from someone who rides the express buses from SE Queens daily, this one is too much to resist:
>>"As for Queens, from what I've heard they can't handle MCIs in any depot they have. Plus they could easily be vandalized by neighborhood youth or people who just want something to cut up or throw rocks at. Anyway, why should you give the bset {sic} stuff to an area totally dependent on transit?"
What would make an MCI more susceptible to vandalism by the denizens of Queens? The assumption that residents of less economically advantaged areas tend to commit acts of vandalism or have no pride in what services their areas is just plain wrong. If anything, the opposite may be the case.
It amazes me to no end to see how badly vandalized the local coaches on Staten Island are. The few times that I have taken rides on the MCI's going out to SI, I am amazed at how frequently I'll find old newspapers and coffee cups on board. One morning I took the X25 downtown right after it was on the X27, and sure enough the coach was a pig pen. When the suburban Orions arrived at Queens Village (a SE Queens depot with most likely the OLDEST fleet in the system, yet with the BEST MDBF), many riders commented on how the Staten Island refugees came standard with roach motels. Through the hard work of the staff at QV, and even the riders who will pick up after themselves, the Orions are starting to finally resemble something clean. Now if they could only do something about all of the collapsed seat cushions.
>>"And as for having more seats, an RTS can seat about 45 (more that I know of but I don't know about NYC) and can hold about 65 with standees. And believe me they can because the Suburban Ikarus buses here have aisles comparable to that of the express RTS coaches and they packed in 70 and these bues seat 40. As for the MCI with no standee accomidations, it can only hold 57 passengers. Which is actually more effecient?"
The Nova RTS Express coaches seat 39. You can probably have 8 standees on them, but they better be friends. The downside of the reclining platform seats is the definite reduction in seating capacity. The local service coaches seat 40 but have much wider aisles. Obviously this wouldn't do for express service (except in Queens where you'll find local coaches on express runs). Orion express coaches seat 41-42, but the same thing goes for standee room. In either case, no one likes to stand in the areas where the forward facing seats are because the aisle is narrow, so everyone congregates near the back door where the side facing wheel chair seats are. The MCI is the compromise for accomodating a good number of passengers while giving the comforts express bus riders feel they should get with the additional fare. If the issue is strictly efficiency, then New Flyer Artic land here we come.
>>"But my point of this whole post was that the people of Bay Ridge DON'T have to like the new equipment and if they prove strong enough RTS buses will be back on the Brooklyn X-Routes."
Since those riders are so critical of their new MCI's, I propose a switch with say Queens Surface or New York Bus Service for their MCI Classics. Oh wait, this will still give them the one door narrow aisle can't fit my overnourished tush through it problem. How about switching out the MCI's for the 1982-1986 soft seaters sitting in the two SE Queens depots? We can send them 1740 (JAM) and 1852 (QV) with much pleasure! We'll be overjoyed to send them a bunch of 3800's!!
Needless to say, this Queens express bus rider thinks that those Bay Ridge riders shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth.
I wish the TA would have purchases Classics from GM/MCI/Nova instead of RTS's from GM/TMC/Nova .As I said it before it was the true heir appearent to the fishbowl not the RTS.
Yeah right. If that were the case, they would've started building those hideous, weak classics in 1979 istead of the RTS.
And IF the Classic is the so called heir to the GM New Look, they were a horrible replacement. How long was their total production run 10-12 years? Less? Besides I've never heard of any US TA having any Classics built between 1990-1995. Hate to burst your bubble, but they suck.
RTS2150 wrote: "Hate to burst your bubble, but they suck."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I DONT THINK SO!
They happen to be very reliable buses. I think you need to ride one.
Peace,
Kevin
Thank you Kevin!
Flxibles can be "very reliable" if you consider very reliable just going out and doing runs and having an average number of breakdowns and having an average life of 13 years.
I consider "very reliable" as lasting upwards of 15 years to 20 years in one TA, no rebuilds, and having a minimum of breakdowns and oing extremely long runs and working long hours.
Last time I checked, Classics don't do that. Since most of them work on small to medium sized TAs, they don't get the kind of mileage an NYCTA bus does? And why do you think NYCTA and NJT convinced Nova to keep the RTS in production, because they knew the Classic just couldn't hold up. If it weren't for politics, NYCTA would be about 85% RTS. The only thing that would be there non RTS would be, NF Artics and Low Floors and maybe 100 or so Orions.
Im not gonna argue with you because you are entitled to your opinion. Classics are great buses and thats my opinion. I am sure there are others who agree with me. You shouldn't say they suck when you dont ride them.
Peace,
Kevin
My statement is that they suck compared to an RTS mechanically speaking. They can be the best damn ride ever, but that's not what I'm looking at here.
Thats fine but I have to disagree with you once again. They dont suck "mechanically speaking". Where do you get your info from? Take it from someone who rides both RTSs and Classics on a regular basis.
Kevin
I seriously doubt a Classic can outlast, out perform, or in anyway outdo an RTS bus (except possibly speed wise, but not an RTS with a Series 50).
CT Transit's Nova Classics have Series 50s too!
Kevin
Perhaps THOSE can beat an RTS speedwise, but NYC Classics have the 6v92TA engines if I'm not mistaken. Like I said, RTS buses aren't perfect. Speed is their biggest weakness obviously.
While your information is interesting, it needs some insight. First off, NYCTA would have been all GMDD/MCI Classics if the manufacturers were not the same. The RTS when produced by GMC in Pontiac, MI the Classic was being produced by GMDD (General Motors Diesel Division) of Canada, LTD. With that statement right there GM of America was not willing to offer systems like the NYCTA to take on the new verison of the fishbowl because then the RTS would not catch on. Its called strategic marketing. RTS's are okay in my book, they have had their fair share of growing pains justl ike the Grumman 870's. ADB's are just okay, but a fishbowl is real bus to me, both the Flxible and GM models. Cities that were very content with new look buses either rebuilt their fishbowls or bought new fishbowls from Canada until the Classic was being offered in 1984. Santa Monica bought the last Fishbowl in 1986 and then Classics from that point on. New York City Transit, nor New Jersey Transit had anything to do with NovaBus continuing the production of the RTS because if NovaBus felt it necessary they could have just killed off the RTS all together and just offer the LFS only. NovaBus recognized that the RTS is a very popular product that can be used in any transit system including ones in Canada and that to me is the reason why the RTS is still around. Since Flxible is now longer in the picture the RTS is now the #1 bus in this country, But in all honesty the Flxible Metro would still be #1 with the RTS in dead 2nd like in the past.
Peace & Blessings
DaShawn Pretlow
www.transitworld.org
>>>The RTS when produced by GMC in Pontiac, MI the Classic was being produced by GMDD (General Motors Diesel Division) of Canada, LTD. With that statement right there GM of America was not willing to offer systems like the NYCTA to take on the new verison of the fishbowl because then the RTS would not catch on. Its called strategic marketing.<<<
If I recall, the RTS was introduced in 1977 and the Classic was introduced (in Canada) in 1980. The RTS-01 and 03 had already caught on, even with their overblown A/C problems. The RTS-04 was just an improvement on the previous model just as the GM continued to produce different 5300 Series Fishbowls.
>>>RTS's are okay in my book, they have had their fair share of growing pains justl ike the Grumman 870's.<<<
True, but I don't recall their growing pains resulting in them being pulled from the streets by the hundreds. Also, the early sloped back RTS designs had A/C problems. A FAR CRY from frame probles among other things. Besides, the A/C problems on the RTS were blown out of proportion.
>>>ADB's are just okay, but a fishbowl is real bus to me, both the Flxible and GM models.<<<
I suppose that's why the last Flxible New Look ever made rusted beyond repair and the average retirement age of Flx. New Looks was between 13 and 15, not much unlike their ADB successors.
>>>Cities that were very content with new look buses either rebuilt their fishbowls or bought new fishbowls from Canada until the Classic was being offered in 1984.<<<
Many of those who rebuilt their New Looks and bought the Classics also have an RTS fleet as well. I don't see any Blitz around NYC. I do still hear about PA1740, an RTS bus purchaed three years before the Blitz rebuilds arrived.
>>>New York City Transit, nor New Jersey Transit had anything to do with NovaBus continuing the production of the RTS because if NovaBus felt it necessary they could have just killed off the RTS all together and just offer the LFS only. NovaBus recognized that the RTS is a very popular product that can be used in any transit system including ones in Canada and that to me is the reason why the RTS is still around.<<<
I believe someone trying to prove Classics were a better bus posted that about NYCTA and MJ Transit. And you're right in your reasoning. The RTS is a brand name that is versitile and has staying power.
>>>, But in all honesty the Flxible Metro would still be #1 with the RTS in dead 2nd like in the past.<<<
Perhaps in New Jersey. But if the Flxibles are so good, why do most TAs retie Flxibles that are 3-5 years junior of their RTS counterparts? I'd just like to know that.
What untimately killed off the Blitzs, and all other new looks was the mandate for wheelchair lifts.
It seems there is a 20 year cycle in bus design. "Old Look" was 40's and 50's, "New Look" was 60's and 70's, and ADB was 60's and 90's. At the end of each period, the next design was introduced, and the current design would continue to be offered for a few years, even though most agencies went with the new design.
So it is about time for a new design, but I don't see one anywhere. Perhaps low floors? But the ones out are still based on ADB. The same goes for articulateds, which have finally caught on in NY, even though they've been around at least since the introduction of ADB.
The new DD series 50 is sort of a "next generation" thing, revolutionizing the sound, if not the look of busing.
Or Perhaps the federal govt (or whoever mandates bus designs) is totally content with ADB, and sees no need to change it again. (They've finally found "the perfect" design and made it permanent).
I wonder what else they could do with the design, but I do wonder if some big change will occur soon.
Actually, I think the Old Looks were 30s, 40s, and 50s as the first one I've ever seen was produced in 1930.
But, there isn't too much more you can do with the RTS without killing the design. There're a few things, but NOVA doesn't seem to be willing to carry them out.
I think the next generation of buses will be "Smart Buses." These buses will have some technology today that's in it's testing stages and have it rolled into one bus. Metro has 13 talking buses (4066-4078) I believe and one bus that can drive itself (4023). In the future these features will be common place on all buses along with hybrid technology, better driver and passenger accomodations, and on board information services.
As for the DD50, it's actually a late ADB thing. It was introduced on most buses in between 1990 and 1993 and has since taken over. I still prefer the 6v92TA, but two cycle(?) engines are dead.
Amen; I prefer the 6v92 to the Series 50 any day.
I prefer any Detroit Diesel over a Cummins anyday. Their 4-cylinder Series-50 has more horsepower than a 6-cylinder Cummins. But The 6V92TA will always be in my heart (as long as it's coupled to an Allison).
Yeah...I love the sound of the 6v92TAs with the Allison 4-speed; they make our Gilligs sound GREAT! I'll bet they sound even better in a Flx Metro or RTS.
-F.
Hmm...nothing I've seen new besides the RTS seems to be ADB-based. IT seems to me that everything is more or less boxy (i.e. Gillig, Orion, New Flyer, etc). Perhaps the "Boxy Look" is the theme of the 1990s and 2000s. Who knows, the era is still young; perhaps we have yet to see what the new theme is to be, but you may have a point with the low floor craze...
How do you classify the new buses anyway? I mean, the Gillig, Orion, et al look NOTHING like an ADB. What is a good name for this design? Is there one? There has to be.
-F.
Well, Grumman was a boxy ADB design. So those others are similar to that, especially the Orions and Gilligs' fronts.
Yeah, but the Grumman looked MUCH more streamlined than either one. So did the Flx Metros. The windows flowed together, and the lights wrapped around, etc.
To be honest New Flyer could be #1 real soon being that almost every TA in country is purchasing them in form or another.
CT Transit in Conn. and the Santa Monica system purchased Nova Classics during those yrs(90-95) and production lasted 14-16yrs (80-96).
We're talking United States.
I missed the news this morning; was there a major coup and Connecticut and Santa Monica, CA are no longer part of the US? Since I'm driving up to RI tonight, I'd better get my passport ready...
>>>production lasted 14-16yrs (80-96).<<<
I was referring to this quote about production. That's when they started production in Canada. I was talking about the US.
[And IF the Classic is the so called heir to the GM New Look, they were a horrible replacement. How long was
their total production run 10-12 years? Less? Besides I've never heard of any US TA having any Classics built
between 1990-1995. Hate to burst your bubble, but they suck.]
U.S. Transit agencies didn't have many GMDD buses period - not just Classics. I know there are Classics in CT that were built in the early 1990's.
All of those Canadian (and a few US) agencies that wanted no part of the RTS probably did themselves a favor. And their GMDD fishbowls and Classics are serving them well. I ride the Classics at NYBS (and Liberty Lines) often when I'm in NYC and those buses are pretty darn tight to be approaching 13 years old. I have no doubt that these same buses will be hauling a** along NYC streets/highways for the next few years. Also - those great NYBS GMDD fishbowls. Have you ridden them? They arrived shortly after NYCTA's 1981 RTS. I'd bet if you hand picked the best 25 buses from the NYCTA's 1981 or even some later RTS like the 1986 or 1987 buses - they not even close to the great condition of NYBS' fishbowls. Ultimately it does come down to personal preference, but I still fail to see how the RTS has proven to be superior to the GMC/GMDD fishbowls or even the GMDD/MCI Classics. I shouldn't even be saying superior because I don't even see them as being on par with the fishbowls.
Wayne
You have left out a few key facts....
Those 1981 Fishbowls don't see anywhere near the service level of an NYCTA RTS or the hours. Some RTS work seven days a week for 10 hours or more and those Fishbowls, by NYC Express scheduling probably work about 2-5 hours a day five hours a week. Those Fishbowls are pansies compared to an RTS so gibe me a break?
Another question? When was the last time most of the DOBs Local Classics left Queens? Mmmmmm, I don't remember either. But those "inferior" RTS are all over the NYCTA system. How many hours of service do those Suburban Classics see? Five or less? That's weak compared to almost 20 year old "inferior" (my black ass) RTS buses doing local service in Queens.
And has the crop of inferior buses softened your mind? Those Classics should be doing well for 13 yeard old buses! THEY'RE 13 DAMNIT! At 13, an RTS runs like it's five.
>>>All of those Canadian (and a few US) agencies that wanted no part of the RTS probably did themselves a favor.<<<
I'm sure they're regretting that now. Also, now if a Canadian agency wants an RTS they have buy them with their own money. Obviously a turnoff.
By your arguments it's obviously preference.
Trevor writes:
,font color="gray">"If it were left up to me, because of all this friggin' complain, i'd do a serious equipment transfer and send all the crap I can find to Ulmer Park then send the goods over to Queens!"
We don't get "goods" in Queens. We get everyone elses "bads" LOL!
Only JAM,QV gets a few old pieces,while CS lone RTS is the only bus from the 80's in that depot.The rest is 93 and up.
Yeah, but the quality of that equipment is questionable.
Trevor writes:
"If it were left up to me, because of all
this friggin' complain, i'd do a serious equipment transfer and
send all the crap I can find to Ulmer Park then send the goods
over to Queens!"
We don't get "goods" in Queens. We get everyone elses "bads" LOL!
I think Trevor want's Queens to get GOOD RUNNING buses and have UP to run JUNCKY RUNNING buses. That will be good.
Dominick Bermudez.
Queens already has good running buses. PA1740 and PA1767 are testaments of that.
C'mon...you know you can't wait to pull 2270 out on a run on the Q43! (just kidding!)
2270 ran pretty good out out of QV after she came from MaBSTOA especially on the 30/31(pretty good p/u on Utopia Pkwy
The grab rail on the existing buses is JUST deep enough for your fingertips, and not something to hold on to for 45 minutes. I haven't been on the NEWER MCIs, but the older ones that I have ridden don't have handholds on the seats either.
THe biggest complaint of Staten Island x-bus riders before the MCIs arrived was LACK OF SEATS. Now they complain that there's no place to STAND. There's just no pleasing some folks.
The MCI coaches, for their 3 or 4 faults, are very much worth the continuing investment.
-Hank
The purpose of the MCIs was for passengers to have more seats available to them. The MCIs are not supposed to be carrying standees b/c if you haven't noticed, it's a pain in the a** when there are standees and people in the rear try to exit. The other night I was on an X1 where it was packed with standees. When it came to the first stop, almost all the standees had to exit and then reboard the bus. Also, the aisle is not wide enough for standees, and there is not a rear exit door, so standees should not be allowed.
It seems like the Union Rep from SI is not feeling them neither. Supposedly, there are going to be cuts in service on the x14 and x15 routes. I guess he feels that the bigger buses led to this decision.
x14#1977Mike
x15#2077Mike
Hahahahahahaha! You see THAT's what happens when you throw out your RTS!
Sometimes the discussions that happen here are impressive as well as informative (I had what I thought was a little question). As many of you already know I'm a subway buff & trolley operator at a local museum, so I come to SubTalk for fun & BusTalk to learn. Once in a while I'm able to answer a question one of you might have, but mostly I learn stuff that my "official" contacts at the TA either don't know or don't feel I need to know. Me being noisy, I'm not willing to just leave it at that.
I've passed on a couple of Trevor's photos & a hot link to the begining of this thread to those here who had a question.
P.S. If any of you have a photo of the wheel chair lift in use that would be the icing on the cake.
Thanks to Dave for the site & all of you for joining in on this thread.
Mr t__:^)
The wheelchair lift is in the front right side of the bus. I believe Hank got a pic of the wheelchair lift in operation-I remember seeing it on his web site. Trevor sent you some of the newer models, I'll send you 2 older models but basically look the same.
#1910 MCI at 42 St and 6th Ave
This is a 1998 MCI Model.
#2133 MCI at Yukon Depot
This is a 2000 Model.
A NOTE: You can't open these links here on BT-you'll have to edit and copy the link to see the 2 pics. This is something new that geocities has done-restrict users to use geocities pics on other sites besides their own. That's the reason why I didn;t send the pics. I'll post the link here for you all to see if I have a bus pic to show. Enjoy!
X1#1910Gary
X17#2133Gary
I got the same "not available" that I got when I tryed to open Trevor's photos, even when I hit "Reload" several times.
Am I doing it wrong ? Thanks for trying in anycase.
Mr t__:^)
Just a test:
Remember this thread y'all? It started it all? Thanks Thurston, and I haven't forgotten you.
And thanks to all that contributed to it, as I learned a lot about this bus & may catch a ride with a couple of fellow Sub/Bus Talkers in the next month or so.
Anybody up for a "Field Trip" on SIRT (arrive from Manhattan via ferry, take the train to the end of the line, then 1/2 way back light supper & return via MCI Cruiser) ?
Mr t__:^)
You could catch the X1 (1/2 hour headway by then) at the Eltingville Trian Station I believe.
Even better for us Queens folks: A tour of old and new
Into Manhattan on an MCI Classic.
Redbird/R-62 to the ferry.
Ferry to SI then the SIRT romp to the end.
Quick ride on a local Orion to a new MCI back to lower Manhattan.
R-142 to midtown.
Instead of an MCI Cruiser from SI to Manhattan, how about a trip back to lower Manhattan on the ferry, an MCI Cruiser to Brooklyn, then an R-46 R train back to Manhattan & Queens. That way, you can work in both a Kennedy Class and Barberi Class ferry :).
Great input from the three of you (Gary, Mark & Mike). I forwarded copies of these two post to our tour leader, Lou from Brooklyn.
This would be realy nice, the first subway/bus/ferry Field Trip !
We could even include a elevator & esclator for heypaul & his friends.
Seriously, I find Field Trips a great way to enjoy this hobby in the company of some friends with similar interests.
Mr t__:^)
Me 2! Sometimes I take a FieldTrip with some friends of mine and sometimes I go on a FieldTrip on my own. I remember 1 day I covered 3 of the 5 boroughs all by myself. I started out on GBL 5502 to Union Tpke to pick up when it was still in service at the time-1755 on the X64. Got off at 23 St and 1 Ave to get an Articulated back to Madison-1024. Got off at Madison Ave to get a NYBS MCI Classic up to Pelham Bay-got 1713- (I call her the reject bus because she was former GBL 717 and TCC 768). Got off her and took QSC 339 back to Queens on the QBX1. From there I took 4448 on the Q13! Yes 4448 on the Q13-that's no misprint. After that I got 9354 on the Q31 to end my little field trip at school aka work. I remember I took that trip right around Christams time because I saw the X-MAS tree while on 1755. I'll be doing those impromptu field trips again very soon.
QBX1#327Gary
I usually do the opposite from what you said-I take the X17 from Manhattan-SI-Yukon Depot where there I walk around the facility. Once I get there the SI Mall is right next door so I usually stop and get something to eat b/c the X17 is a 60-90 minute ride. Then from there I hop on the S44 to Jewett Ave where Castleton Depot is. I walk around that facility and hop on the S46 to the ferry to get to the Ferry Terminal. From there you can see the SIRR or catch the Ferry across back to Manhattan. You get a beautiful view of Manhattan and the Statue of Liberty. From there either I get the 1,4,5,9 train or take the M6 bus Uptown to get either the 7 train or Q32 back home to Queens. Replying to your post, I'd be willing to take this trip with you, it's just a matter of what day, what time and where to meet? The trip takes about 6 hours there and back.
Another point: You can only get a QS MCI Classic on the weekday-the weekend they run for the most part the 500 Express Coaches.
X17#1877Gary
M6#9503Gary
Q32#9532Gary
QM1#510Gary
[X-17 from Manhattan to SI, etc. The trip takes about 6 hours there and back.]
That sounds like a week-end type of trip.
What I was thinking of is our typical after work trip, i.e. meet at SI Ferry about 5:30, do the SIRT, then catch a Crusier on our way home. Shooting to arrive home 9 to 9:30 (I would have to catch the LIRR at either Penn Stn or Atlantic Ave, i.e. 45 minutes from there for me).
I was also trying to find a way for us (subway & bus folks) all to be part of one group, at least for part of the trip. In the past we'll pick up folks along the way (we give them places & times to meet us), then folks drop off the trip at other points. It gives me great pleasure to meet a few new friends on every trip. Exchange of detail about the line, equipment and experiences is also part of the enjoyment for me. I'm remembering my frist two trips on PATH where Andy & Peggy were bending my ear the whole trip ... isn't life great !
Mr t__:^)
Maybe we can do 1 of 2 trips-1 would be the weekday trip just to get an MCI Ride and the other will be an all-day event to visit CAS and YUK. I did take that trip on a Saturday. I started around 1pm and got back to Queens around 8pm. Meeting spot would probably be Main St at 4pm on a Friday?! Let me know.
X17#2140Gary
Sounds like a plan, I'll pass your comments on to Lou from Brooklyn who'll be leading the tour.
BTW, since he works at Queensboro Plaza he'll join us for some Red Bird Railfanning.
Mr t__:^)
Let me know. Sounds great.
B61#823Gary
i cant believe anyone would come to staten island to see depots.dont forget the dump thats our main attraction closing soon and you can smell it from yukon.
In case anyone was interested in this type of thing...
The Westchester County DOT recently moved it's offices from White Plains to 100 E 1 St, Mt Vernon. DOT is moving in to the Mt Vernon location, which is currently occupied by the county's Senior Services, Social Services, and Community Mental Health divisions.
Bee Line has also changed it's information center phone number. The new numbers is (914) 813-7777.
I thought someone woulda posted it by now, but ...
On Monday, Ride-On unit 5167 (a 30-foot Metro-B transferred from WMATA's Western Division about two years ago) was involved in a fatal crash at the I-270/I-370 interchange in Gaithersburg, MD. The fatality was the driver of a silver or gray '87-'90-vintage Dodge Caravan, who apparently was merging and didn't see the bus in his mirrors.
The Washington Post ran a captioned photo of the crash in yesterday's Metro section (page B3).
This is the interchange near Exit 9 on I-270, close to the Target and Barnes & Noble mall.
C
I rode on this new member to the NJTransit family this past Saturday on the #163, from New York to Paramus, right near Garden State Plaza.
It was a pretty cool bus, especially the interior. Only problem was, all the reading lights were on and nobody could turn them off! It was funny seeing arms reaching up and touching buttons in vain (some genious hit the red stop-request button and the sign was flashing from somewhere in the Lincoln Tunnel until the first stop in Rutherford). Unlike the MC-9's, the stop-request is a red button and not a yellow tape.
But probably what I liked most were the interior colors - they were VERY cool and soothing - shades of ice blue and blue-grey and purplish-blue-grey. Sweet. A disco ball and some smoke would not seem out of place! And the ride was a lot smoother than I expected - I always thought of the newer engines as rough-riding and loud, but it was actually very smooth and quiet.
Well, this first ride has won my approval and I'm sure these buses can continue the legacy of the infamous MC-9 "Jersey Cruiser".
You say all of the right things!
Oh, forget that.
Anyway, the interior of the bus as you described it seems similar to the MCI D4500 cruisers of the TA. Cool. Made by the same manufacturer for two different transit authorities. Cool. As for the reading lights that never turn off, the TA's newer cruisers (2705-2804) are just like them. I rode #2770 on the x25 once when it was dark outside. The blue lights were on all throughout the25-minute trip! They can't do anything about it, but the buses are nice overall.
i wonder how the interior of the "Renaissance" cruisers of Academy are. I hope they are just as good or better.
CWalNYC
I'm making my second 'guest appearance' at BusTalk...
Just an observation from last week: the old Lieberman-Koren Scrap Metal facility that closed down late last year over by Pitkin Ave. and Junius Street has apparently been sold to Gershow Recycling.
What's interesting is that Gershow is one of the main scrap outfits for NYCT buses. So, things might start to look interesting around that area of ENY pretty soon. :-)
BTW, the East NY bus facility is within a half-mile from there, and good shots of the scrap yard are obtainable from the Canarsie Line's El structure.
More on this as news becomes available...
Which stop, Sutter Avenue?
That's about right. Just look down on the Bayridge line after it imurges from the Atlantic Ave tunnel. If you know the area, there's a cleaned out scrappers yard ... that's the one he's talking about.
Mr t__:^)
Based on the location it is not far from ENY Depot, Command, Varsity, Jet-Away Transp. and the DOT Yards. Lotsa potential business in the area for Gershow.
Interesting. I've never seen a bus scrap yard before. I'd like to go check it out (maybe this week).
Are there any NYCTA buses there now? Where are the other yards? How many buses are usually there, and in what condition?
Is the public allowed onto the premises? Do you think they would allow me with my pass? How many of you visit these yards?
This facility is undergoing a rebuild, so nothing has been scrapped there yet.
Will post in the future if I see some activity.
BMTman
From previous posts to this board by other contributors, there are two other yards in the NY area.
Gershow Recycling is in Medford, Long Island, about 2 miles southeast of Exit 64 of the LIE.
Nimco is in New Jersey near the Turnpike....If this becomes a bus graveyard it'll be the first one in NYC
I went out to Gershow last summer and saw a good number of NYCTA RTS models starting with number 15, 16, 14, and a couple Flxibles for Jamaica Buses.
I went out to Gershow last summer and saw a good number of NYCTA RTS models starting with number 15, 16, 14, and a couple Flxibles for Jamaica Buses.
Yes, I know....this is a SHAMELESS PLUG.
I know some BusTalk-ers would just LOVE to own one of those GM fishbowls made in China (NOT Corgi, though I have done a few of them too, but none available for sale right now) in the colors of San Francisco Municipal Railway.
The item number at eBay is 567996286 -- or look under seller i.d. "sjh50".
I might have a 1/50 scale Corgi or two in the Muni colors there in a few weeks....if I get off my (donkey) and paint it up. I'm presently INUNDATED with projects I'm doing for friends right now and haven't even been able to get anything of my own done!!!!
Guess what....final bid price $34.65!!!!!
Now I wish I had gotten more SF Muni lettering when it was still available from its manufacturer. No more!
Nice! I'm working on a RIPTA version of one of those crummy Fishbowl models (not for sale :)); the TA logo is just going to be a photograph of one off a 1990 RTS, printed out to scale on a label. It's going to be in 1980s colors, since I have no idea what they looked like originally.
Saw her passing in front of South Shore HS on Flatlands Ave in BKLYN!!!!! No, not a transfer, just being used as a training bus. Besides we got too many 4900's/5000's over here at ENY. :):):)
Q30#4916Mike
ENY can use the other 45 4900's to replace the 84/85 RTS's
Now, that wouldnt be fair to snatch those buses from Qns? I plan to ride a 4900 from ENY to JAM depots via the Q24 and see what I can find.....
Q31#4944Mike
MTA#4916
Posted by SubBus on Thu Mar 8 19:19:05 2001
Saw her passing in front of South Shore HS on Flatlands Ave in BKLYN!!!!! No, not a transfer, just being used as a training bus. Besides we got too many 4900's/5000's over here at ENY. :):):)
That's out of QV and is one of our Training Buses (as is 8357 - the only 8000 with a manual right-side mirror). Apparently the instructor takes them into Brooklyn. I have no idea how he gets there though. I'd imagine the Cross Island to the Belt, but who knows? If you want, I'll ask him when I see him.
(feeling colorful today LOL)
Well, I hope they're all doing well.... I need more seniority LOL!
By the way, why are you calling the bus "MTA 4916"? It's TA 4916 as I understand it. Or NYCTA 4916 to be specific, no?
Well let's have it guys :-)
have you forgot nyct no longer refers to itself as an authority except on your paycheck so its really nyct#4916.
Well, that's what they'd like the public to believe! An authority by any other name..... LOL!
Ah, yes. In the interest of "Bus Customer Relations" and to appear as warm-n-fuzzy as possible, as opposed to some cold-n-heartless "Authority", the Surface Division of the NYCTA has flowered and blossomed to be known as Department of Buses, New York City Transit, Going YOUR way.
My hearts-a-flutta.....
After a day of railfanning I wait for the 5:40pm N21 to Glen Cove. An N20 to Hicksville is starting to pull up at 5:25pm to the bus stop, when an N21 to Glen Cove cuts in front, and is packed with riders.
I boarded the bus, bewildered as to how those people I got on, I was waiting at the first stop at Roosevelt avenue.
So I asked one guy where did you'all get on? Everybody laughed. Apparently this was the 5:03pm N21 out of Flushing. It left 10 minutes late, and the bus driver made a mistake. Instead of turning left on Sanford from Bowne, he turned right. And around they went. Going to Kissena, then Main, then back on Roosevelt. So that bus was packed. So packed in fact, that at Bell Blvd the bus was full and we had to leave people at the stop.
Finally emptied out after Great Neck. It was bus 184. Needless to say, that was a hilarious first for me!
That once happened to me in Chicago. About 9-10 years ago, I was on the bus that circled through Grant Park to serve the museums (I don't remember the number). Instead of exiting the park, the driver accidentally went around the circle a second time, this time not making any stops (much to the dismay of those waiting). When we finally left the park, the driver walked off and another driver took over.
While in Elmhurst I saw an all white Triboro Orion CNG on the Q53. The all white look is horrible. Is this a new thing or something, or are they planning to paint the red stripe on it? I didn't catch the number.
Also the Q58 gets a lot of bunching. I saw 5 buses come in a row!
The Orion's that are Painted white are.
Triboro Orion5 #3033,#3053,#3068-#3069.
Green Lines Orion5 #5542.
Those are the Orion buses that are Painted in White.
Dominick Bermudez.
3067 was on the Q53 today-I bet that you saw her. 3049 and 3071 are also white. 3060 came in in white but she has the old red strip scheme on her now.
Q53#3067Gary
Yeah, the Q58 is the best route in the system. Those five buses you saw are a testament to the outstanding service provided.
It's a pretty good way to get from Elmhurst to Flushing, a key bus route in Queens.
There has been bunching on the B/Q 58 since I was riding TDH-5303(3600 fishbowls) on that line 25 yrs ago
The number is #3071. I see it sometimes on the QM10, QM11, and QM24 in Manhattan. Qtraindash7, I agree with you mainly because I feel that all city transit buses should have some sort of paint scheme on them. Without them, they have no identity; they would be just a generic-brand bus with a number and the company on it. I hope it is not the new look. PLEASE, NO.
Oh, and NYBS MCI Classics #1688 and #1696 have a different paint scheme on them, different from the rest of the bunch. The front and back do not have mostly blue, the all-blue that makes a NYBS bus a NYBS bus. I hope that's not new as well.
My 2nd LI bus trip went something like this:
B13-NOVABUS #5059. Nice ride-smoth, quiet,think slept on it a bit.
Q7-Orion V #5523-NO SIGN Working. I also saw #5522 missing the computer sign completly, guess Green is working on them. did see #5503 in the wrap-that looks really good.
N91-Orion V-#635. THIS WAS MISSING SEATS. When i mentioned it to the driver, he said "seats, what seats". Guess LI BUS is getting lazy on the older Orion Buses.
N4-Orion V CNG-#300. SMOOTH. love these buses. This had speed.
N15-Orion V CNG-#149. This one needed a pickup and this trip did get crowded, especially at Roosevelt Field. Miss the Gilligs though.
N24-Orion V CNG-#186 and #215(2 buses-had to get off in Mineola)-LI Bus is improving on their fleet. The CNG are running but its a shame about the older Orion V.
Buy the way, if anyone out there in BusTalk is hiring, i currently lost my job, and am looking. If you are hiring, email or mention it.
thanks
How in the h-e- double hockey sticks can an Orion V be missing seats .It's not like a DOT Suburban MCI Classic or TA Orion Suburban were the seat cushion is missing .They have hard plastic seats.Those are impossible to lose.
Maybe they took them out on purpose, so people have more room for luggage on the JFK Flyer route?
That bus is almost always on the 6,22/22a or 24 .I doubt it
Maybe the seats were just folded up ,some of the ones in back fold up for a wheelchair.
Ex-ENY bus doing work. Isnt life grand?
B60#4011Mike
saw 2 of them at Edgewater Depot in Staten Island today. Dont know the numbers becasue i was on the S51 and was trying to make it to the ferry. What is going on?
by the way, Yukon is short buses becasue Yukon lost the S44/S94,S59,S74 and S78 to Castleton and got all of Yukon Orion V buses (with the exception of #6327-#6349). And i saw #4011 on the S79 last Sunday. Geez, what a slow bus this is.
Nice to see 4011 made it out of Maspeth Storage (no joke). And the buses at Edgewater are 121, 122, 123, and 124. All 1993 Orions to be exact. And you know this is 2001 making them 12 years old, and you know what that means.....Gentlemen, place your bets....
You mean send them to Queens (preferibly CS where they wer for a while)
I just thought of something, my math was off. Actually, the Orions are only EIGHT years old. I guess I was just so swept up in the excitement of Orions being stored. When you think about it, that's pretty sad. Haven't seen any eight year old RTS buses in storage lately.
I have a feeling they'll start scrapping Orions next year though. It won't matter that they're only nine years old.
Yep I do see 7 year old RTS in storage: The Triboro Coach Methanols from 1994. Most of them are o/s except for 2140, 2142, 2144 and 2147.
Q23#2142Gary
They're Methanol Buses, that's different. We're talking about your average bus.
Another ex ENY bus doing work. Isnt life grand???
B60#4011Mike
There are 2 or 3 at Carlton yard, too (there were recently, anyway). Are those out of commission?
121-124 are awaiting to get repowered.
Q32#121Gary
The Orion's that are store in Edgewater are.
1993 Orion5 #121-#124.
These buses where running at MCH for a while. Most likely #121-#124 will end up in QV or CS in Queens. So let's just wait and see.
Dominick Bermudez.
From what I heard they going back to CS.
Remember the problem people had with SI Orions on local routes in Queens? Anyway, I heard they were going to be re-powered, doesn't that mean they will return to SI?
Just arrived from the isla del encanto which translated means Island of cheap rum and Coors lite!
Some of my sightings included:
1. Many older suburban style fishbowls (no center exit door cushion seating) throughout the Island from Ponce to Arecibo. They appear to be private owned buses used for school buses and private lines between towns.
2. The Metropolitan bus system (San Juan) and surrounding towns has much newer and nicer equipment. RTS's abound all over with what appears to be older Grummans and Flexy's. Also in the San Juan airport I observed a 30-35 foot Flexible/Grumman operated by the Metro San Juan bus system. Also I saw many LFS maybe Nova(?) looked like the one that operated out of Hudson.
3. Observed many older coach type buses, MCI's and the like especially in San Juan airport used by tourists outfits.
The Metropolitan bus system seem to carry many customers as all the buses I saw in Carolina had fully seated loads. However the headways are very large averaging 20-30 minutes and 7 for the busier routes.
There was a article in the newspaper on Tuesday stating that the federal government is taken 15 million dollars in fuding away from the authority because of failing to but buses out because of some union rule preventing operators from going out on runs because of a extra list or something.
About how many buses are in the fleet?
I've always had trouble obtaining clear details on the transit situation in Puerto Rico, but I'm nearly sure that the biggest operator, AMA (Agencía Metropolitana de Autobús), has a fleet of about 270 buses. The fleet is now dominated by late-model NovaBUS RTS's. Up until the downfall of Flxible, AMA had been a loyal buyer of the Metro. They have some of the last Metro-D's ever made. I also believe that AMA still has a few 1983 GMC RTS T70 604's hanging around. The buses all have crazy five-digit fleet numbers. Actually, it's just some sort of variation of year numbering. AMA recently introduced a new paint scheme, seen first on the 20000-series buses. The old scheme looks like Broward County Transit. I looked at AMA's website, and was disappointed to find that a city of 800,000 only had two routes with impressive headways. All of the other routes run at weird frequencies like cada 27 minutos or other odd intervals. I think the cash fare on AMA is only 40 cents.
There are some smaller TA's in Puerto Rico which operate Flxibles; I'm not sure about where these buses go or exactly who operates them.
¿Un sistema que habla español y cuya flota tiene RTS's? ¡Estoy en la gloria!
Neil
What's crazy about 5 digit fleet #'s The TA's 1st 90 or so Orion V's had 5 digits and GBL has 1 bus (10001) with that numbering
When I was there, I was forced to rely on instinct to understand their system. I looked all over, even the depot, but couldn't get a map of the system. But the numbers on the buses helped me a lot, it was easy to figure out that 98xxx was 1998, and 99xxx was 1999 when I saw these, I wondered if they had any 2000s and sure enough a 200xx comes rolling along. If anybody has their roster, it would certainly kill all of my questions.
I read in an article of "Metro" Magazine several months ago, that there is this one bus driver that is apparantly their best one that they have. He takes really good care of the customers, as well as the bus, such as getting that baby to shine really nice and he always gets the first new bus delivered to the agency. They even spec that bus for him and give him one that is tailored more for him. Last year's was a really nice RTS. I'm sure if that's what they purchased again this year, he's rolling around PR with a brand new RTS again.
All of the latest are Nova-RTS, at least that's how it was when I was there. The only non-RTS material I saw was Nova-LFSs, which had 99xxx ID #s. They looked just like New York's own retired #995. I wanted to get on it, but I was with a group.
What's the status of the new subway (elevated train) line ?
Mr t__:^)
I think that's supposed to be up and running soon, within the next couple of years. I took a transportaton course at MIT last year and the professor for that class was a consultant on the project. I believe its called Tres Urbano or something like that.
I road map I purchased shows the route of the new line on the map so I followed along in my car looking at whats done and to my amazement it looks almost identical to the JFK airtrain construction sites. Even down to the precast concrete structures piled up waiting to be hoisted in place. Theres a lot of structure up with gaps needing to be filled and I think their goal is next year for opening up. However my Father told me he heard that theirs rumors of heavy cost delays and the like.
Hope its not another LA subway fiasco, I'm planing to go next year to visit my parents and would love to ride it then.I read on a website cars have been delivered and are being tested on stretches of track.
The bus fare's vary between 40 - 50 cents depending on routes.
Not sure if I remember right, but somehow I think some of the NYCTA/MABSTOA Grumman 870's wound up down in Puerto Rico, ones that New Jersey did not take.
Anyone know for sure?
i always thought that some ended up in Binghampton NY for Broome Cty .
Hey, I'm jumping the fence from Subtalk for one quick question. Sorry if this has been asked before.
Why are new buses still equipped with flip dot signs? For example, our new MARTA buses have flip dots, also new Seattle buses have them, too (same ones as MARTA, it seems). Granted, you can read them and they are nice and big, but my experience says that they will eventually be unreadable. Why aren't LED signs used? They are much better.
The 126th Street Depot fleet of New Flyer articulated buses is slowly getting bigger. As of yesterday (3/8/01) the following model year 2000 artics are now assigned to 126: 5506,5507,5508 & 5509. Training for operators is currently being conducted on Saturdays. Only operators who are scheduled to work on Saturday can receive training. The training class takes two hours.
How about everybody else?
Dominick Bermudez.
Obviously you're saying that the artics will be working the M15 soon. Some questions for you folks in the know...
-Anyone know a specific date when the 60 footers take over 1st and 2nd Aves.?
-Will the conventional buses vanish from the M15 or will there be a mixed fleet?
-What about M23, M79, M86 - are these routes remaining 60 footers also?
Thanks in advance to all who respond.
M23,M79,M86 Will still be Running Articulateds and all 40 Footers on M15 will be gone by the end of this year and replace by Articulateds on M15. Also M35 will be running Articulateds too. Most likely doing the Summer of this year. Articulateds that are at 126 ST now will Replace 40 Footers on M35.
Dominick Bermudez.
The artrics might be used also on the M31/57 as well.being that these are hi-volume as well.
About them, I rode #5508 on the M35 on Wednesday and #5506 on the M15 Limited from City Hall yesterday. I guess those who have the training can drive them in passenger service on the weekdays.
At about 11 this morning, a bus in the layover line for the M86 on 86th between West End and Broadway was flashing EMERGENCY ROUTE / COASTAL FLOOD. Now, I know it had just stopped raining, but I didn't see any severe flooding. (Maybe the transverse was flooded? When I rode the M86 -- the M18, then -- daily, whenever it rained heavily the bus was detoured to 79th to cross Central Park.)
I think those signs would be used in case of a hurricane (prehaps cat 3 and up)or in the winter nor'easters (magitude of10/91,12/92 or 03/93)
Some drivers just like to play with the destination signs and enter in special codes to see if the passengers will notice. Obviously you are one of the few people in Manhattan that is not comatose. I truly believe that you can put up a destination sign that reads; STRAIGHT TO FUC*ING HELL and 9 out of 10 people would not notice. If you're working the M15 line they will probably ask you if it's a limited or local to fuc*ing hell.
I didn't really think that transit systems were to really get involved with politics, but the old DC "Celebrate and Discover" license plates that are currently on every Metrobus will be replaced with the new "Taxation Without Representation" plates that are circulating through the city. These are the same plates that President Bush removed from the limo that Clinton had put on. The cost to do this is $15,000 and will be picked up by the DC Gov't. There is a big article on this in today's Washington Post, in the Metro section.
All WMATA buses, even the ones that are stored in VA and MD have the DC plates, so the whole area will be exposed with them. I kind of just started laughing when I saw this. Go figure.
Wow - I'm suprised. I can understand because WMATA probably would do better if DC did have a voice that (really) counted. I would've gotten those plates too but I live on MD.
Wayne
Aren't all vehicles - passenger and otherwise - supposed to get these new "Taxation Without Representation" tags? Or is that optional?
Right now they are just optional. You can turn in your old plates and pay $10 for the new ones. With 1500 buses, this will be a big feat.
I probably would have gotten them too if I lived in DC.
Unfortunately, they won't transfer your old tag numbers; you have to accept a new license number when you trade plates. This is why I've balked at doing it.
C
That is the dumbest license plate slogan I have ever heard. Why don't they just put out a DC plate that tells the truth; "Bend Over And We'll Take Your Money"? Sheeze...what is this country coming to.
Article in Wednesday's Chicago Tribune about David Buzek, a bus collector and restorer. Free registration required to read the article.
N23 bus 193 broke down on Northern Blvd in Roslyn, on top of a hill just before Searingtown Rd. Saw is while riding the N21. Blue dispatcher car on scene. Yeah, the Cummins sure have problems on those hills. I sure wish they'd get rid of those Cummins engines, they are horrible.
I rode a bus on the N25 that has confusing numbers. The number in the front of the interior was 129 (and painted blue, not white like on other LI Buses). But on the back interior of the bus by the A/C vent, the number was 118.
Is LI Bus changing numbers? I've seen it before on the low 100 Orions.
Nonetheless, the older series Cummins really sounded shot.
Several sightings by my cousin that a Articulated has been operating on the M7. Yesterday, I went up to Mother Clara Hale to see if my cousin was pulling my leg, sure enough, when I got up to Mother Clara Hale, Articulated #5367 was on the lift, YES MCH HAS ARTICULATED LIFT and a dispatcher had told me that the bus is a regular to the M7, testing on the M1 and Bx19 will soon start.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Will any MCH articulateds come from the 140 bus order slated for 126 & MJQ or will they be part of a future order?
Maybe the M79 artics will go to MCH and we can have 40 foot buses on the 79!
HELLO.
The 40 Foot buses will cause buses to get PACKED on the M79. Leave the Articulated's the way it is. Most likely. MCH will take over the M86 and M79. And Quill will run Articulated's on M23,M42,and M102.
Dominick Bermudez.
MCH won't be taking over M79 & M86 & those line will be only Artics buses. BTW: MCH will becoming a Hybrid Depot in couple. The rumor i heard that new 100th Street Depot might be becoming a Artics Depot or maybe not.
Peace
David Justiniano
No one know why MCH has this Artic, all the info I got was that its in use on the M7 and may see some M1 and Bx19 service.
Yes, 100th is planned to have Articulated Buses. However that doesn't mean that MCH won't see any. Yes MCH is supposed to become a Hybrid Depot, BUT not the entire fleet, if its seen fit that the Articulateds are needed there, you can beat your sweet grandmother's ass that MCH will see Articulateds, Eventually the TA wants to have all Depots Articulated ready, just in case!!!!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Do this mean's that Queens will get Articulated's too? There are 4 Route's here in Queens that need the Articulated Buses. Witch is.
Q5,Q44,Q46,Q85. Those are the Route's here in Queens that need's the Articulated Buses.
Dominick Bermudez.
Yes Eventually, Brooklyn and Queens will see Articulated, possibly in the next 2 years or so. SI is another situation, they are not friendly towards the Artics, so I doubt they will see any over there.
100th Street will house the M79 (Artic Line), M86 (Artic Line), M101, M102 (Artic Line), M103, and possibly the M96, M106 and M116.
The M35 and M15 will remain at 126th Street where they have been for ages!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Well. Most likely Jamaica Depot will get the Articulated Buses and the Route's that are Running at Jamaica Depot that is Q5 and Q85. And Jamaica will get the Other Depot Route's that need's the Articulated Buses. Witch is. Q44(CS)and Q46(QV). But for the Q46 will run Mixed with 40 and 60 Foot Buses. Most likely the Glen Oaks part of the Q46 will be running 40 Foot's. While the LIJ Hospital part of Q46 will run Articulated Buses.
Dominick Bermudez.
Has anyone in a powerful position in the TA told you in writing that Jamaica will be getting artics or are they getting them because you want them there? And a bit of constructive criticism since I believe you are a NYC Public School student and it's good not to get into bad habits, but watch you spelling: there is no "h" in the word "sure"; and "witch" is the wicked woman who flies on the broom on Halloween nite! The correct spelling is "which".
I just takeing a good guess where the Articulated Buses will end up. But for now. Let's wait and see. And I don't go to school in NYC anymore. I still live in NYC but I go to school in Westchester. Because that school is helping me alot right now and so on.
Dominick Bermudez.
It's spelt: "taking", not takeing.
but then again theres no such word as spelt.
Spelt is a grain.
"takeing" is acting like "Mr. Sulu" from "Star Trek"
Here's some useful information from somebody who works at Jamaica.
Jamaica depot will NEVER see articulated buses until the new depot is built which won't be for at least another 5 years, maybe more. Jamaica depot is actually very small on the inside and an articulated bus would never be able to manuever around the interior. Sometimes it get's so tight during periods when most of the buses are in the depot, we can barely maneuver the standard RTS's around.
So don't get your hopes up on seeing artics on the Q5 or Q85 anytime soon.
BIG AL
QV doesn't have room for them either. Where they park the buses is very tight and 60 footers would make it much worse. The only place that I could see Artics would be in CS. If you look in the very rear of the depot, it seems that they're building an annex for CS because most of their buses now park under the Boardwalk viaduct. I heard that Artics WILL GO to CS for the Q12, Q20AB Q27 and Q44 routes ONLY!
Here's another question that I have for ya: Is Hudson Pier closing this year? And where would their buses and routes go to-Quill? That would mean that the Q32 could see Artics? I'd sure love to see that.
Q32#1001Gary (I hope!)
Q32#8464Gary
I couldnt see a Q12 making the turn from embroke onto Glenwood to the stand at the city line.
And the 20's at College Point and 14th would be a real b**** too.
If they can run artrics on those tiny streets like Madison on the M15 then it can make the turn from Pembroke on to Glenwood
Do you know what it'll mean for Artics being on the road? It'll mean that they'll be less service on a certain route-longer waits and more crowded buses. To be honest, the Q46 does need Artics but if it was a choice to get Artics for less service or just sticking with the RTS and getting more sevice, I think I'd want more service. Yeah the buses may get a bit uncomfortable but I can wing it. This topic also ges back to Bay Ridge being unhappy with the MCI's. The MCI Buses sit 57 passengers. The average Express bus seats about 40-45 passengers. Don't you notice the decrease in service? Bay Ridge has already and that's why they're unhappy. Honestly I don't blame them.
Q46#3972Gary
X27#2778Gary
I know that 100th Street will become an all articualeted depot with the following bus routes:M79,M86,M101,M102,M103. The new 100th Street will only be able to hold 133 buses.
DOB plans to convert Flatbush Depot in 2003 to all articualed after they rebuild the fuel station. The B-41,B-44,B-46 and one additional line will be converted either the B-49 or B-82 (speculation on the 4th line only). The B-2 and B-31 will go to Ulmer Park and the B-49 (if not converted to articulated ) and B-78 will go to East New York.
Forget about Ulmer Park going Express only.Logistically does not make sense because where would you put the B-2,B-3,B-31,B-36,B-64,B-74 if Flatbush is all articuated.
Thank You
A service cut on Q46? I say that with the service cut
doing weekday's on Q46 is bad. This will cause a NIGHTMARE with the service cut on Q46. Beside's that. ALOT of people that use the Q46 doing Rush Hours will find themself's late for work. I don't want that to happin. But. The Glen Oaks part of Q46 will use RTS's. The LIJ Hospital part of Q46 will use Articulated's. Doing Rush Hours. The 2 Part's of Q46 will use RTS's and Articulated's with a few Orion's to help out Rush hour service on Q46.
Dominick Bermudez.
Hello? Dominick??
Have u ever seen an RTS do the U-turn at that traffic circle in LIJ?????
I'm sure Queens Village BO would agree that that is not the place for an artic unless the TA pays LIJ to reconfigure things.
I did. About back in 1998. It's wide enougth for a Articulated Bus to turn.
Dominick Bermudez.
[Eventually, Brooklyn and Queens will see Articulated, possibly in the next 2 years or so. SI is another situation, they are
not friendly towards the Artics, so I doubt they will see any over there.]
I can understand Staten Island, since I don't know of too many local routes that have ridership that justifies artics.
These are the routes that i could se getting articulated buses:
Brooklyn-B41,B44,B46
Manhattan-M15,M23,M42,M31,M57,M79,M86,M102,M101.
Staten Island-X1,S61/S91(they had a Neoplan articulated tested there in 1993-seemed to work from what i could see)
Queens-Q5,Q44,Q46
Bronx-BX1,BX2,BX12,BX7,BX41,BX55-thats all i could come up with since i dont know Bronx routes well.
The articulated at Mother Hale is going to be used only on the Bx19. It is being tested on all the lines in the house in the event it is needed for such. However there is only one lift in the depot for articulated servicing so there will not be a large influx of artics coming to Mother Hale.
I want to take a minute and talk about articulateds for my line, the Bx19. Are they coming any time soon? If they are, which artics will they get, the 5600's assigned to Quill,the 1100's currently in KB or what? I would like an e-mail from the person that saw an artic on the M7 line. Was it a new on or an old one?
E-mail me, someone, at carlwal@hotmail.com
I would be very interested in what you have to say.
CWalNYC
Go back to the original post (27700) and its says 5367 was on the lift at MCH. Further posts suggested that A SINGLE artic will/might be tested on the MCH routes - possibly to check to see that the routes are able of handling the bus, etc (I think Mr Mabstoa mentioned that though i cant find that post)
I was on the M7 yesterday.
I asked the driver if there was ever an articulated on the M7, but he immediately told me no, that they never put it there in the first place, and that the Bx19 might get the artics if MCH ever gets them, maybe about 10-15 of them. Or even up to, but not exceeding, 20. That's all, no artics on the M7.
By the way, I saw the artic in the depot on the lift. I passed by it after riding the M7 and before riding the Bx19.
Oh, well, so much for the idea of the M7 being articulated. Nice, but not going to happen anytime soon.
CWalNYC (8^)
After doing a little looking into the matter a maintainence supervisor told me that all that is happening now is that artics will being getting minor scheduled overhauls at Mother Hale at a rate of one a day the reason for the one lift being installed at the depot. Nothing else right now. It appears the one artic running on the Mother Hale routes was just a test possibly for the future. But it doesn't seem as if any artics will be running in customer service out of the depot for right now.
I do remember one summer when there was a blackout in the Northern part of Manhattan artics were fueling up and getting vac'ed at Mother Hale because KB had no power.
I remember 1 time I saw 1092 on Union Tpke-I think headed towards Queens Village Depot. At first I thought it was in service but when I saw the sign-it wasn't. I was like what the heck is she doing here? Anyhow-QV will NOT SEE Artics in the future. Another point about QV: They have so many rejects that they'll get the old license plates on their buses and everyone else will get the new plates. ;) The only buses that they can declare that are theirs are buses 9352-9381, 4900, 4902-4944. The rest are rejects from other depots.
Q31#9381Gary
Q46#4908Gary
I passed by MCH this morning anddid see any artics. Nuttin but Orions.
M1#235 Mike
M7#6049Mike
I think the Route's for the 100 St Depot will be like this.
100 ST Depot. M7,M86,M79,M35.
I not shure it's going to be this way.But I not shure if M15 will run out from 100 ST or not. Any other Routes will run out of 100 ST?
Dominick Bermudez.
I think when 100th street reopens,it is going to retain it original routes.
When the new 100th Street Depot open late 2001 or early 2002. The routes might be M31/57?, M79, M89, M96/106?, M116, M101/102/103. Those information i got it from my father who is a B/O at MQJ Depot & he work at old 100th Street Depot almost 15 years after 100th Street Depot close.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Soon to be NYCT-MTA Traffic Checker
Back in 1996 or 1997 New Flyer Artics #1001 did tested on Bx19.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Soon to be NYCT-MTA Traffic Checker
Most likely MCH will get some Articulated's from other depot's.
Now was #5406 was there when you visted the GARAGE today? I did not see any Articulated's on M7 today. I better get my CAMERA reday for this one.
Dominick Bermudez.
New Flyer D60#5407
No just #5367 was there, I took a ride over to 126th and spotted #5507 & #5509 on the front apron, BUTT ASS NAKED (No ads). I shot as many pics of those buses like that because that is the way I like my buses, NO ADS or either FULL AD.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I remember when the M79 Artics had no ads. They looked odd but they were cool looking that way. I have a picture but I can't get it to work right now (the DSL is acting up).
>>(the DSL is acting up)<< (off topic)
I have that same problem too. Does your ISP uses a PPPoE program, because I've heard horror stories about that too. I'm not down with PPPoE.
Will MCH will get more Articulated's any time soon?
Dominick Bermudez.
This bus has been sitting o/s the Bdwy/ENY subway for the past few months until last night.Does any body now if it was taken to Nimco for scrapping or to the CMF to returned to passenger service.
I think she was scrapped for good. I doubt that they'll take 3922 to the CMF for repairs but this is the MTA that we're talking about. They're trying to get 2270 back on the road so they may be trying to get 3922 either back into service or I heard something else that she may become a Police bus.
Q56#3919Gary
Trying? They already got 2270 back on the road along with 4010 and 4011. Soon those will be joined by 2660. I'm just wondering when 3009 will come out of hibernation...
At around 2:40pm, I was on SEPTA's 92 bus heading to Exton Square Mall (Chester County Library, where I am sending this post, is on the same property as the mall) aboard new ElDorado #4518 (I am so glad that this driver qualified early on these buses). We were heading up PA 100 near Exton Rail Station when I spotted Bee Line artic #501 heading south on 100 towards US 202.
(If you've logged on to the Bee Line's web site, you might have seen some images of the Neoplan, at least the front and the rear.) The bus sported a slightly different paint scheme than found on the Orions and Flxibles. Instead of the "W" logo, the bus had the new "Westchestergov.com" logo. On the top of the bus was the standard "The Bee Line System" logo (this is the same location as the red to blue ribbon of SEPTA's new paint scheme). The buses are equipped with Luminator front, side, and rear signs. The sign was flashing "Bee Line System/The Way To Go/Not In Service".
At first, I thought it was Krapf's trying out yet another new bus, but then I realized that they wouldn't spring for something as nice as a Neoplan. As soon as I saw that it was the Bee Line bus, I couldn't believe it.
I think the reason that Bee Line 501 was down this way was because it was at the Neoplan parts facility, which is in Honey Brook, Pa., about 40-45 minutes (and out in the middle of nowhere) from where I live. I think this is the first time I have ever seen an artic anywhere near the Exton area. I wish I had brought my camera with me (sigh), since this is a once in a lifetime thing for a bus nut like myself.
where on the website did you find it? can't find it.
It's a very small image in the top left hand corner of the page. Apparently, Westchester did a redesign of the Bee Line pages.
Here it is Libeerty Lines
Mr t__:^)
OK, lets try that again Liberty Lines
Mr t__:^)
Well, I give up ... maybe after my second cup of coffee.
Try it your self http://www.libertylines.com/
Mr t__:^)
Does anyone have a good photo of the NEW Bee Line Buses???
Thank you
Steve
HELLO.
Witch part of the web site you saw the Photo's of the new Neoplan AN460 that Bee Line is getting. Now. How did #501 get down to PA?
Now that's VERY RARE to see a Bee Line down there in PA.
Dominick Bermudez.
Neoplan AN460#501
As I stated in my original post, Neoplan has a parts facility in Honey Brook, which is about 40-50 miles northwest of Philadelphia in a very rural section of Chester County.
Ed Gibbs had a major heart attack this evening and passed away shortly after.
He was apparently experiencing some discomfort and called 911 himself.
Charlie Akins will handle the arrangements. He will be missed.
Wake:
Monday 3/12/01
2:00 PM-5:00 PM
7:00 PM-9:00 PM
Gannon Funeral Home
152 East 28th Street between Lexington Avenue and Third Avenue
New York City
212 532 6579
Funeral Mass:
Tuesday 3/13/01
9:30 AM
Saint Joseph's Church in Greenwich Village
371 Sixth Avenue at Washington Place
New York City
212-741-1274
Burial will follow at Saint Charles Cemetery in Suffolk County NY
Edward Gibbs was truly one of a kind.
And he will be missed.
RIP, dear friend.
While riding all the way in the back of WMATA Orion VI 2007, I noticed that right in front of the last pair of seats there were two seats facing backwards. The arrangement of these four seats made it look like there should be a table in between to play cards or something. I'm wondering why anyone would want to sit there and stare in the face of a complete strange on there! The next time I'm on one of those buses, and its crowded, I'm tempted to sit there just to get a reaction from those sitting frontwards. It looks like, from the amount of dirt on the backwards seat, its used for a foot rest instead of a seat. Are NYC Orion VI's or New Flyers configured like this?
I've also noticed that the 5200 series Ikarus's down here have a couple backward seats as well, but they are right where the bus begins to bend.
I never understood the reasoning of that type of seating either. PAT in Pittsburgh tried that on 2 buses and a streetcar back in the early to mid 70's when they completely rebuilt them into the "Extra Special" units with state of the art conveniences of the time (many that are now common place everywhere). That one and only feature on those vehicles that passengers hated were the conversational seating that was installed (based on rider surveys when the buses and streetcar were placed in service).
On a charter coach I could see a few buses in the fleet being equipped with converational seating but not on a transit coach. I have not seen an Orion VI other than some exterior pictures but maybe they thought it would be better because if the seats faced forward a rider would have thier knees at thier chin in a wheelwell seat? I don't know, just a guess.
Well for what I heard the Ovion's VII will havew two steps leading up to the rear section. So I guess that they will have all frount facing seats.
Robert
Where you got this INFO about the Orion7 is going to be?
Dominick Bermudez.
Orion7 #9899
I agree that for charter coaches, that type of seating arrangement would work a lot better than for transit use. I'm wondering why they just didn't extend the sideways facing seats to cover the rest of the section over the wheel well. It does feel very strange in the back, since the engine compartment takes up the whole left rear, which looks like a restroom that you'd find on OTR coaches. It almost seems like the back of the bus was an afterthought.
Orion IIs have poorly designed rear seating as well, although admittedly it's the only workable configuration given the bus's footprint. They have two rows of facing three-passenger seats sandwiched in between the wheelwells, which extend to the ceiling, which is lower than on the rest of the bus. Claustrophobia city, and there's maybe two feet of space between the rows. In effect, you're sitting with your knees intertwined with those of the facing stranger in troop-transport-style benches with NO lateral support. Predictably, extricating yourself from this tangle when it's your stop -- especially if you have bags -- is a major undertaking, more so because of the lack of a stop-request cord in the rear. Third-class seating for real.
C
I haven't had the "pleasure" of riding one of those creatures yet! I am going to Philly in a few weeks for a business trip and I understand that the "Phlash" bus, which will go right by my hotel, uses them. I was planning on taking that one through the city just to have a little fun since i haven't been up there in years and need to get my bearings back. I had to do a doubletake when I saw these backwards seats in the Orion VI because that was the last thing I was expecting to see on there. The driver must have turned off the talking feature because it only said, "Welcome aboard route 25B, destination Van Dorn St. Station" when the door opened and didn't announce any of the streets.
nyct orion 6 hybrids have the same seating arrangements as i have seen from driving behind them. one seat faces backwards.
The only Orions VI's that have that arrangement are 6350-6353(the ones originally slated for NJTransit.6354-6359 has the 3 longitudal seats near the back instead .
Rear facing seats are quite common on European transit buses. The trick is whether the seating arrangement provides enough leg room. Usually, it doesn't!
Yeah, there would have been very little room if someone else was sitting across from me. I'm only 5'10, but it wouldn't have been easy. All we would need is for the bus to have to jam on the brakes and one of us would not be very happy with the results!!
... unless said opposing party was an attractive female. :)
Orion seems to go with a make-it-fit packaging aesthetic, trying to cram as many seats as possible into the bus' footprint. The problem with its low-floor buses (II & VI) is that the footprint is so irregular that it results in this sort of awkward compromise to accomodate varied floor levels (VI), cramped interiors with intrusive bulkheads (II), etc.
C
After going through a cycle of dreams during nap time today, ranging from rowdy teens, to my deceased friend, I came to one about this place. Everyone was in an uproar about arguments I had started and said it was a waste of time. I was about to point out that that was one of the purposes of this board, but then, I heard some women say I should stop being a coward and publicly show myself. I removed the tree branches from my face and glared at them as they scurried to their cars. Then, I went on to another odd dream that I really don't care to describe. So, I guess that means I should end this myself. It doesn't mean I'm aplogizing as I feel I haven't done anything to apologize for, nor does it mean that I will stop debating period. It just means this one is over. If I could go back and change some things, I'd change nothing except the length of time this went on. But, as for as I go, the thread I DON'T THINK SO! is closed.
Sorry I cam't remember your whole screen name, but I'm in a hurry. I got the signs to show up on the BUS SIGN program, but the pixels are screwy. I don't know how to install the fonts to correct this? Can you help? Thanks.
In the ZIP file, there is a file called videoterminal.zip. Extract this file to a directory of your choice. Open this file in your ZIP utility program. Select the .TTF file (the only one) in the ZIP and extract it to your fonts directory (usually C:\WINDOWS\FONTS\, change C:\WINDOWS\ to the directory you installed Windows). The following is to ensure that the font is registered in Windows. Open the Control Panel. Double-click on the Fonts icon. In the list of fonts in the window that opens, look for a font called Video Terminal Display. Once you see it, close the Fonts window and the Control Panel window. Once you start Bus Sign, it should look OK.
Hey folks; some time ago we all rattled off the various buses we have spotted in TV and movies; it's time to bring up another sighting.
I was watching "WKRP in Cincinnati" as usual this morning; it was the episode where Johnny Fever crashed with Bailey for a while and began to fear for his job security. Meanwhile, as his yuppie temporary replacement begins to spin "Vacation" by the Go-Gos (gotta love those golden oldies from the early 80's), a Flx New Look rolls by outside.
The bus was white with a dark stripe around the middle; I assume it to be an old Queen City Metro 800 Series, one of which was later rebuilt by Flxible into an ADB and is currently preserved by the Ohio Museum of Transportation. (RDChilds, you may be able to back me up on this.)
That just made my day...a great classic TV show with a great classic bus. What a utopia it was for me!
-F.
In the opening credits of the Drew Carey show (in which the entire cast lip-syncs "Cleveland Rocks" by the Presidents of the United States), there seems to be a shot of the cast in front of a bus (Flxible?) in RTA's paint scheme.
Was that an actual RTA bus on location, or a mock-up on a studio back lot?
I've seen an RTS bank on his coffee table in the RTA paint scheme as well.
I do know that. Drew got hit by a RTA Flyer D901A after he was running after that bus.
Dominick Bermudez.
Hmmm, a closet bus fan?
WOW....cool. DREW ROCKS!
-F.
They mention taking the bus a lot on there, particularly in the days when Drew had problems finding a decent carpool to get to work. I think on one episode, a bunch of them chipped in to get him a bus pass.
I dropped by the RIPTA Storage Yard over the weekend and found a few surprises.
First the good news, if you want to think of it that way: a few more of the ex-NYCT RTSs are in RIPTA livery. No NYCT buses are left in the yard, so I assume all have been repainted or disposed of.
Now, the bad news: 8531 was the only Volvo remaining on the property, so it's possible the rest are gone. Also, the Providence FD 1970 Fishbowl has moved to the Cadillac Drive end of the yard, and its engine has been removed. The interior is a mess.
And the ugly: ex-NYCT 4388 was in service on Saturday on the 34, on its way to East Providence. It's now sporting a full wrap for Nestle Quik. Blech! On top of that, the destination sign looked like it was being used by an alien race to attempt communication with us.
RIPTA34#4388Mike
RIPTA-OOS#8531Mike
PFD#7101Mike
Any Volvo's are still in service? Also did any Neoplan's get Repainted yet?
Dominick Bermudez.
Neoplan AN440#8800
I think all the Volvos are out of service; I haven't seen one on the road since November. Also, there were 15-20 in the yard on my last visit, February 10, and now there's one, so I would guess they're being scrapped (or stored elsewhere?)
There are repainted Neoplans, but they're rare. As I've posted before, I saw a lot of them repainted and retrofitted with LED taillights last summer (Volvos, too), but they all seem to have mysteriously disappeared.
I guess not too many Neoplans where Repainted . Any Volvos will return back to service any time soon? That could be the reason you did not see any Volvos there. And I guess that you saw some Neoplans that was in the yard waiting to be Repainted. Do you have any photo's of the Repainted Neoplan's?
Dominick Bermudez.
A correction on my apparently (and thankfully) wrong assumption -- I just received this e-mail from RIPTA customer service:
We are still using the 1985 Volvo buses. You can call 784-9500
extension 132 every so often to check on the status of the 8500's. Also keep an eye on the newspapers.
That's area code 401, if ya want to call ;)
Could that be the reason why you did not see any VOLVO's in the storage yard? Do you have any photo's of the Replanted Neoplan's?
Dominick Bermudez.
The Philadelphia press corps - fresh of their massive warnings of a blizzard that didn't hit us - are sound the alarm for a possible SEPTA strike as early as Thursday morning. It is possible, however, that a strike will be avoided on March 15, as it has been for the last two negotiations (1995 and 1998).
IIRC, SEPTA last had its strike in 1998, but only Regional Rail ran during that time. Are the workers of SEPTA planning to take all of their service down this time, or is Regional Rail under seperate contract?
Regional rail are of a separate union (Brotherhood Of Locomotive Engineers, forgot what local), but due to Federal law (it is a railroad), they are barred from striking. So far, The City, The Frontier, and the mechanics are due to walk out (69th Street are of a different union as well, but their contract won't go out until the end of this month), so as of April (if there is a strike and how long), there would be only the regional rail.
Actually, Frontier operates off of a different contract despite being part of TWU 234. Red Arrow mechanics are also part of TWU 234, despite the fact that the drivers are covered by UTU 1594. The Frontier contract usually expires about a month after the city contract. The UTU deal expires on April 1.
I've thought that when the last strike happened, all of 234 went out on strike at the same time, and they would NOW have a uniform deadline now (despite the different contracts).
Nope. City, Frontier, and Red Arrow mechanics are under the same union, but have different contracts. Red Arrow drivers are represented by a completely different union.
Wait, now I know what you mean. What happened was that all three TWU 234 bargaining units worked past the original deadlines. Despite attempts to continue negotiating, TWU 234 brought in Jerry Mondesire (head of the Phila. NAACP) and Lance Haver (consumer activist and total moron, IMHO). This was a huge mistake as SEPTA didn't take Mondesiere nor Haver too seriously. Then again, nobody really took Haver seriously, but that's another story.
The last SEPTA strike officially began on June 1, 1998. It ended on July 10, 1998. As stated in earlier posts, the only services still operating were the Regional Rail and Red Arrow bus and rail lines. Railroad unions, by law, are not permitted to strike, while UTU 1594 signed an agreement a couple days after their contract expired on April 1.
A couple of Red Arrow drivers aren't as concerned about this year's negotiations since they feel they were screwed over already three years ago. BTW, not including the 1998 strike, there has been a lot of animosity between TWU 234 and UTU 1594 over the years.
Other than Regional Rail, only the Red Arrow buses were operating during the strike. UTU 1594, the bargaining unit which represents Red Arrow drivers, settled on a contract a couple days after their 1995 deal expired. While the TWU went out on strike, supervisors actually took responsibility for maintaining the Red Arrow buses. Believe it or not, the Red Arrow buses ran pretty good during the 1998 strike.
Red Arrow rail (the rt 100, 101, and 102) were also running at that time.
I just saw on SEPTA's website that they already have their whole strike contingency plan in place. I hope they are up and running when I come to Philly April 4-6! I was looking forward to riding around on the system in between my meetings. Luckily, the hotel is in the middle of the city so I can just walk or take a cab otherwise.
This is the same plan that they had last time in 1998. I think they are just using the same thing. Last time, though, it was a complete mess, especially without the subways running at all.
I hope it doesn't get to be too bad there. I guess by reading from others that they have this problem every three years, SEPTA becomes used to having a backup plan.
Also, bear in mind that the Phlash Center City loop will still be operating. PATCO service is also available between 8 St & Market and Locust St, stopping at 9/10 Sts, 12/13 Sts, and 15/16 Sts.
Thanks. I had meant to say that Red Arrow buses AND rail routes were still running.
Just in case anyone needs it, I have posted strike alternatives in the event of a work stoppage.
http://ctrabs74.50megs.com/strike
I got this info of the SEPTA web site.(www.septa.org)
Bus Route's 91-314 will be running doing the strike. LUCY will be running doing the strike and the Regional Rail Train's will be running doing the strike.
Dominick Bermudez.
I remember during the last strike, routes 91-99 were NOT running. Doesn't the frontier district use the same union as the TWU Local 234 or whatever? So, basically you can be sure that routes 100+ are going to be running, except for the almost non existant 400 series routes.
I guess that Frontier is the same union.BUT diffent contract's with Frontier anyway.
Dominick Bermudez.
This is a listing of routes that will be operating during a SEPTA strike in the City Division:
RED ARROW: 100-120, 122-125, 305
Red Arrow drivers are represented by UTU 1594. Their contract expires on April 1.
FRONTIER: 91-99, 127-131, 133, 201, 203, 206, 304; parts of 118, 124/125
These routes are operated by Frontier, which is also represented by TWU 234, however their contract expires April 7. It's possible that if a contract is not reached by Frontier on April 7, they too could go out on strike.
CONTRACT OPERATIONS:
Trenton-Philadelphia Coach (Germantown): 310, 311, 316 (LUCY), Phlash
This is a separate bargaining unit of TWU 234. TPC reached an agreement with SEPTA in August 2000.
Krapf's Coaches: 204, 208, 314
Krapf's is a non-union, private operator.
Lion Tours: 301, 302 (until at April 1)
These are two routes which represent the former Fox Chase/Newtown shuttle bus, which was formerly operated by SEPTA out of Comly depot. These routes are scheduled to be discontinued by the end of the month due to an arbitrator's ruling that said SEPTA could not contract this service out.
Routes 94, 105, 106, 108, 124, 125, 129, 304, and 305 are subject to detour routings since those lines actually operate into the city. I haven't confirmed what will happen with the 94, however:
105 and 106: Detour via West Chester Pk, Lynn Blvd, and US 1
108: No service to Elmwood and Eastwick; closed door express likely between Yeadon and Eastwick Rail Station and Philadelphia International Airport; during the 1998 strike, SEPTA operated the 108 via Baltimore Pk, MacDade Blvd, and Calcon Hook Rd (part of this is served by new Route 305 introduced two years ago) to reach Eastwick and the Airport; however SEPTA supervisors relieved the drivers at the Delaware/Philadelphia County line.
124/125: Diverted to Villanova Rail Station
129 and 304: Service may not operate to Morrell Park loop
305: Service may operate to the Airport area, however a plan such as described on the 108 where supervisors relieve UTU drivers at the Delaware/Philadelphia County line.
All Regional Rail lines will continue to operate, however some express trains may make local stops within Philadelphia city limits.
Why does SEPTA have to divert the suburban routes which serve the city as well? I mean, the same drivers are driving the buses in the suburbs, why not the city as well? It would really help a lot of people out.
Because of the different contracts. It looks to me as SEPTA doesn't want to risk serious problems between the TWU and UTU (not that there aren't a hell of a lot of problems to begin with). That's the only logical reason I can think of.
Yesterday, somewhere along the north side of I287 between X1 and X9, I saw a yard full of these things. Is that where they are dropped off before they are delivered ?
That is the other NJ shop of Atlantic Detroit Diesel in Piscataway (most folks are familiar with the one in Lodi on NJ 17 next to I-80). NJT's CNG-powered MCIs were all dropped off there as well for final adjustments to the engine.
Back in October, Rockland Coach (Red and Tan) supplemented its pretty-much hourly weekday service along route 9W in upper Bergen and Rockland Counties to the GWB Bus Station with hourly service along the same route to the Port Authority Bus Terminal, resulting in half-hourly service on the route (#9). However, on weekends, buses from New City, NY, run only hourly. Some go to GWB Bus Station, some go to PABT, and some go to BOTH. A few bus fan friends and I caught one of the "Both" buses headed to NYC on Saturday and paid to go to PABT. After dropping off passengers at the GWB Bus Station, the bus turned around and proceeded back into New Jersey, then took the Turnpike down to Exit 16E to take the Lincoln Tunnel into PABT. I guess that, although this is a more roundabout route than had the bus taken city streets between GWB and PABT, it probably makes better time via NJ due to lack of traffic lights, etc. Of course, Peter Pan and Bonanza buses from New England have been using this NJ routing for years. I guess we got two trips into NYC for the price of one!
Some express buses from SI go to the City VIA NJ. Quicker than going to the City VIA Brooklyn.
Mike
"Mr Mass Transit"
Specifically, those are selected AM trips on the X17 and X31, which operate via the Turnpike and Lincoln Tunnel.
My friend frequently takes the weekend Short Line from PA up to his parents near Waterbury, first stop Brewster. He's reported it's gone:
-All the way up Amsterdam, over the Washington Bridge, up the Deegan/Thruway, east on 287, north on 684, east on 84.
-Instead of I-87, the Cross Bronx/Bruckner/New England Thruway combo, west on 287, north on 684 to 84. Routine congestion on the CBX and unending construction in Westchester makes it excruciating.
-Turns off Amsterdam, crosstown on 125th onto Triboro, up Bruckner or Deegan to 287.
-Crosstown to Midtown Tunnel, out LIE to Clearview, over Throgs Neck,
up Bruckner/NET to 287.
-Thru Lincoln Tunnel, up NJT (or 1/9!!), out 46 to Fort Lee, up 9W all the way to Nyack, Tap to 287 to 684- or over GWB back into New York and then either Deegan or CBX.
Strange thing is, if the bus goes through White Plains on 287, the driver will stop at the terminal there to pick up. Likewise, New Rochelle if on 95.
It seems like long-distance drivers are allowed a lot of discretion, no doubt based on traffic, construction, ballgames and the weekly Upper West Side street fairs. (Broadway's been used as an alternate to Amsterdam in some cases.) This takes into consideration that buses aren't allowed on Riverside Drive or any parkways.
[...buses aren't allowed on Riverside Drive or any parkways.]
Regarding the parkways: That is correct.
Regarding Riverside Drive: Not quite. The M5 route has used Riverside Drive (between 72nd and 135th Streets) for at least 90 years. There even used to be a peak-hour branch that stayed on RSD between 135th and 157th. Also, portions are used by the M11 (135th to 145th) and Bx6 (155th to about 160th). Even subway shuttles have been scheduled to use Riverside from 145th to Dyckman to fill in for the #1 train.
Also years ago, the M-4 used to go down Riverside from 135th to 110th Street...I don't know if it still does.
Nope. I hear it was a nicer ride than Broadway is now (current routing).
It hasn't done that for at least 15 years or thereabouts.
The M4 routing on Broadway is more useful. Why should Broadway (particularly in front of Columbia) be served by only one bus route (okay, also the M60) while Riverside gets two? Riverside is traditionally where the M5 flies as nobody gets on or off at most of the stops. (Traditionally. It's been slowed down like crazy in recent years.)
I returned from a week in Florida and saw many new Gillig low floor buses in Palm Beach (Palmtran) and Broward Counties. I know many BusTalkers are not fond of Gilligs and one in particular has voiced his dismay for this low floor model. I rode in some of the Palmtran buses and found them nice riding (of course they were very new). The one thing I didn't realize is that the Gillig low floor model is perhaps the only one in the U.S. that has a few steps up behind the rear door but does not change the location of the bottom window line. In other words, from the outside, all of the side windows have the same bottom line. Contrast this with the New Flyer, NABI and Neoplan models, where the side windows towards the rear are smaller because the bottom window line moves up as the inside floor gets higher. The Orion VI and Nova low floor buses have uniform windows, but I believe they are low floor throughout (no step up behind the rear door). (I'm not 100% positive of this vis-a-vis the Nova low-floor model.)
As an aside, both Palmtran and Broward County Transit use 00xx for the fleet numbers of the Gillig low-floors that were delivered last year.
I saw Gillig low floors today at the airport. H2000LFs, I'll post info later.
I've never been a fan of Gillig but a small transit authority that does daily line haul service from New Castle PA to Pittsburgh PA (about 30 or so miles one way) has some of the Gillig low floors so I've gotten some exposure to these coaches. They haven't had any problems with these low floors in over a year of daily local and suburban service and some other small systems in Ohio that run them also haven't had any major problems with them.
Overall I feel Gillig found a niche with small transit properties with the low floor they produce. Granted I still don't feel the Gillig low floor can handle a medium to large system that runs frequent and crush load service but they seem to work very well in the small transit operations. Plus I feel the appearance of the low floor is pretty decent.
Yeah..the Gillig Low Floor looks good. I like that they have full-size wheels as opposed to the New Flyer. Also, the wraparound lights up front look good; they remind me of the Grumman 870. If only they would apply these to the Phantom.
-F.
The Thomas SLF 200 also has equal windows front and rear; we had a demo here last year. Neat bus, but not quite heavy duty transit. More of an airport shuttle....
-F.
When I have more time later, I will express my extreme dislike for Gillig buses accompanied by a list of good reasons these buses will never find work at large transit systems.
For now, I will warn you all not to be fooled by Hertz Gillig Low Floors: H2000LF means nothing more than "Hertz 2000 Low Floor"; it is not a Gillig model number.
The Gillig low floors are actually called Advantage T-40's or Advantage T-35's. Also, I'm just getting word that there may also be a 29 foot model.
Here in Norfolk, VA there are a few Gillig Low-Floors and Phantoms running with Hampton Roads Transit that were on PennTran prior to their merging with Tidewater Regional Transit 2 years ago to become HRT.
I've seen those on their website; last October, I had just left from Mopar Madness at Langley Speedway and saw one of the Low Floors down the road from Langley (I believe it was no. 1205?). I was tempted to hop on and take a ride, but didn't know the routes very well. Besides, I had to get back to Roanoke; I was up driving through the night and was at my show vendor space in the freezing weather all day long, and all this without a wink of sleep! Therefore, I got home to crash ASAP.
Perhaps this year I can do the whole thing a lot more well-rested; hopefully by then I will have a nice, heated bus for everyone to step into to check out my model cars and buses at the show. If the weather is anything this time like it was last year, that alone would cover my fuel cost. That and the fact that a 35' or 40' bus would hold a LOT more product than the roof and hood of a Dodge Intrepid.
-F.
Perhaps I will
Things are pretty much sucking in Houton proper bus wise, so I decided to take a trip back to the airport, a place I haven't been in two years.
I took the 4-Beechnut towards downtown, but the AN460 I was on, 4549, was laboring so hard I bailed at Fondren for the 163 express to downtown figuring I'd beat the 4. I walked down Fondren towards the direction the bus would be coming from. I made it to Bissonnet and it arrived. AN460 4514. We made it to the Hillcroft Transit Center and the bus driver left, reappeared a few minutes later and said "this bus is out of service, I'm having problems with the transmission." Everyone grumbled and got off. 4514 limped around the loop and parked. Hopped on D40LF 4149 on the 82 line and waited...and waited, and waited. When she began to finally pull off, she alerted us and the other 4514 refugees that another bus was coming. We got off and 4518 pulled in. It was another AN460 with a ripped out Vultron sign replaced with a luminator, a modern one this time, but the 1 in 163 was psuhed out of the way so it just said 63. I got on and waited...and waited and waited. The driver got off the bus for awhile and then got back on and we left. As we were leaving I spotted another couple of AN460s, 4519 and 4522 with the orange destination sign, it looked pink in the sun from far way.
I made it downtown and checked out the Metro ridestore and got a 102-IAH Airport Express schedule. I had time to spare and waited about five minutes for the 102. It was Suburban style AN460 4462. Pick up was HORRIBLE!!! But, the top speed was great. Never seen any bus fly up the freeway like that. After we got off the freeway however, the pick-up was worse and that sucked.
Upon entering the airport I saw alot of uninteresting para-transit type buses used as parking and car rental shuttles and a wierd type of bus National Car Rentals uses. I don't know the type now, but I'll get back to you on it. I also saw some older type Gilligs working for Continental Airlines as employee shuttles. Also, i saw some Flxibles, Metro style. I'll get to those later.
Upon doing the runaround in the freight terminal, I spotted an AVIS Car Rental RTS heading into terminal D. I thought it was a Nova at first but it looked to be a modified RTS-II-03. We passed it and beat it to Terminal C where I deboarded. I spotted it and watched it pull off, I listened to the motor and it sounded like a cross between a New Look, a Grumman 870, and an RTS with a 6v92TA. Also, it looked like a "back pack" had been attached to the slope. It was definately not an RTS-04 model. That bus was Avis number 4.
Also in terminal C, I observed Hertz's brand new Gillig H2000LFs. Some of these were ther during my last visit, but Hertz still had some RTS buses there as well. Tehy are going now, totally replaced by the Gilligs. They weren't ugly at all, but very plain. They seemed quite fast and comfortable though, but I had no interest in riding them. Also in terminal C were two Flxible Metro As. Former Houston-Metro Metro As to be exact. I saw that the route destination sign was stuck on 23 Garden Oaks, a branch of the 23-Crosstimbers Crosstown route in Houston. The buses were now MA21 and MA22. The door to MA22 was open and I peered in, the number was peeled off, but the imprint was clearly visible as 2218. Also, it still had the old Hiram Clarke parking assignment in it as well. The front sign was totally ripped out but it looked decent overall for a 15 year old Flxible. These weren't my favorite buses but I was very happy to see them in service and not in the scrapyard. As I left MA22, older Gillig MA12 pulled in behind it. I was going to look it over, but these were there the last time I visited so I really didn't care too much.
I began a long trek toward the Avis car rental center. I figured I'd just lie and say I was lost and get a ride back to terminal C on one of their RTS buses. After a 15 minute walk, I arrived and cased the place. I walked into the return center and boarded AVIS RTS number 11 behind a couple with a load of luggage. I wasn't questioned or anything. The interior was quite nice, it had plush red seats and Panasonic speakers. The steering wheel was kind of small and a semi-modern computer was where the farenbox would be. The bus had a TV monitor inside to watch the road and advertisments played in the front. There was a nice info kiosk in the front as well. The ride was good. It sounded like a New Look mixed with an RTS. It was quite jerky too. I rode back to terminal C and deboarded. I looked at the builders plate and it said 11/78. I couldn't believe it and I looked at the back and it had been modified as well. Ahhh, my first ride on an RTS-03.
At Terminal C, there was MA12 with it's engine door open. It was dead. I inspected the bus and it was dirty and delapidated. On the front of the bus it said MA1, the 2 was gone. I spotted Ikarus 2720 coming from the car rental area heading towards downtown. Since I had accomplished my mission, I decided to call it a day. Iboarded 2720, a suburban Ikarus. It was pretty crucial on the inside. The seats were marked up and the recliners broken. Oh well, at least the A/C worked.
Downtown, I caught D40LF 4078 on the 4-Beechnut line for the ride home. Passing Hermann park, I spotted a cluster of AN460s. 4530 was picking up a large group of passengers and 4544 and 4559 were dead. All sported the A-Downton sign. NOT a good day for Neoplans. I saw RTS 2150 not too far behind the cluster on the same line. Good to see this classic still in service. Other RTS spotting were 1975 and 1985 on the West Garage Shuttle. Got home in about an hours time from downtown.
All in all a good day. May go back tomorrow to take some pictures. Hope I didn't bore y'all with my exploits.
I'm sure many of you have seen these things so I'm surprised no one has posted how beautiful these babies are. Bee Line Flxible number 870 was so beautiful I had to make her the wall paper for my desktop. Anyone who owns Flxibles needs to take a lesson from Bee Line, NO Flxible can come close to beating these babies look wise. I mean DAYUM!
The Bee-Line Flxible Metro-B's are nice buses very clean (as compared to the MAN Artrics.They also have very good speed as well.
Yes, they are! I couldn't agree with you more. I remember when they first showed up in 1990 - and what a pleasant surprise it was to me. I think it's one of the nicest paint schemes plus Bee Line buses usually look good. You should ride them. I found them all to be pretty fast but the few with the Cummins L-10 may be the fastest.
Wayne
Yeah, they do look good. The taillight configuration on 797 is a bit funky, but the paint scheme is great.
It's ironic that your favorite is numbered 870; when the Metro design was first introduced in 1978, it was known as the Grumman Flxible 870.
-F.
Living on the Bronx border, I see these every day. My nine year old daughter commented when we pulled up along side one about that evil looking bumblebee. That is an evil bee alright. My favorite thing about them is that awesome two speed transmission shift that occurs from the red light around 20 MPH. They sound like the old 4800 fishbowls we had on the BX20 years ago. I wish they would have gotten rid of the MANss and added to the original contract order for these 870 lookalikes. Certainly a change of pace from Club Transportation.
The "evil bee" reminds me of the Dodge "Scat Pack" cartoon bees found on the flanks of the Super Bee and other Mopar muscle cars of the late 60 and early 70s. In fact, if those Flx Metros have a 6v71 engine, add together displacement of each cylinder (6x71= 426) and you have the exact displacement of Chrysler's 426 Hemi.
Also, I agree with you on the fact that Metros look a whole lot better than the MANs. On a lighter note, the faux grille of the Flx Metro is reminiscent of the "gunsight" grille found on late-model Dodge Ram pickups.
-F.
Those Flxible Metro-Bs at Bee Line do not have Detroit Diesel 6L71 engines.
Those babies are powered by 9.2L Detroit Diesel Series 92 DDEC coupled to a Voith D863ADR 3-Speed Transmission which with that combination gives you the impression of a DDC 6L71 Engine, but its a Series 92.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
The 6V92TA is 9.0 liters, the 8V92TA is 12.0 liters. The 8V71 is the 9.3 liter engine.
Not according to the Series 92 Specification sheet that is in front of my face right now. It states 9.2L, Rated at 253-277 Horsepower for Transit Buses.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I believe that the engine number (eg. 71 or 92) is the number of cubic inches for each cylinder. Therefore at 63 cubic inches per liter a 6V92 would have 1.46 liters per cylinder making it an 8.76L or rounded out a 9L engine
murf................
Listen, so you mean to tell me that Detroit Diesel doesn't know thier own engine because, the sheet I'm staring at, AGAIN, is straight from DDC.
BLAH.............
I apologize the correct conversion ratio is 61 cubic inches to the liter. I have the Manual here and the information as published by DD is as follows:
Engine 6V92
552 CID
9.05L
Engine 8V92
763CID
12.07L
See the link below to verify the conversion of inches to liters
http://www-personal.wccnet.org/~eileen/Engine_displacement.html
I can fax the spec sheet for both 92 series and the 71 series. Yoy can reach me at montgomeryny@yahoo.com
I've typed in the address, and it kept telling me that the site does not exist.
http://www-personal.wccnet.org/~eileen/Engine_displacement.html
copy it right from the post.
I dont know how to make it a hyperlink. sorry
murf
Ask Subwaysurf> He knows how to add hyperlinks, maybe he can help, that way, we can both add hypelinks (and other goodies as well).
I'm just now learning about these; as far as I know CID of each cylinder is timed by no. of cylinders. Using that formula, 6x71= 426 CID (around 7 liters), 6x92= 552 CID (about 9.2 liters) and so forth.
That's all I know at the time; any input is welcome from all.
-F.
That's correct; it is 92 CID per cylinder.
-F.
Ooh...Series 92? Bet that hauls well and sounds GREAT! I LOVE that engine in our local Gilligs.
-F.
Wow - somebody else who remembers the old Bx20. It's the bus I rode most during my childhood days and when those 4800's (T6H-5309A) arrived (KB had 4813-4832, 4860-4919) they immediately became my favorite bus. I thought the Bee Line Metro's trannys were 3-speeds. I know they're Voith transmissions which you usually find in a buses with Cummins engines.
Wayne
How do you tell the difference between a Voith and an Allison? I know that most DD-powered Metros have an Allison but am not sure on some I have rode. I do know that Voith is usually mated to a Cummins.
-F.
With a Voith transmission (at least with the 6V92 and L10 engines), when the bus comes to a stop, there's a bit of a lurch as the bus is idling. This is very common on the WMATA Flxibles with an L10 engine.
It was the same way with our Flxibles at the University of Maryland. The pick up on the cummins was faster but the handling and overall braking was so much better on a DD. The cummins came in very handy when I was driving the football team to the stadium on game days and we had the police escort zig zagging us through traffic.
Which WMATA Flxibles have the L10 Engines and voith transmission?
[Which WMATA Flxibles have the L10 Engines and voith transmission?]
All of the 9300-9400 series, 9260-9288 and also the last few (5???) of the 8900 series.
Wayne
Specifically:
8971-8975
9251-9275
All 93xx and 94xx
Plus, aren't the 97xx and 98xx series equipped with an L10, or is that the M11?
(BTW, I found the Flxible lists at the OMOT web site. The fleet numbers for WMATA seem to differ on those lists than what has been discussed, so that's what I'm going by.)
I thought the WMATA Metro D's had the C 8.3, but it may be the M11. Definitely not L-10 though.
Wayne
The 1990 Flxible METRO-Bs (9300 & 9400 Series) are 10.0L Cummins L-10 CELECT Engines with the Voith D863ADR 3-Speed Transmission, along with those few garden variety 89xx and 92xx buses with them.
The 1993 and 1994 Flxible METRO-Ds (9700 & 9800 Series) runs funky, and here is the order:
9700 Series: 10.0L Cummins L-10 CELECT Engine/Voith D863ADR
9801-9823: 10.8L Cummins M-11 CELECT Engine/Voith D863ADR
9824-9835: 8.5L Detroit Diesel Series 50 DDEC/Voith D863ADR
The Cummins CELECT is the equivilent to Detroit Diesel's DDEC.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
[9700 Series: 10.0L Cummins L-10 CELECT Engine/Voith D863ADR]
Wow - Those have the L-10! I'm very suprised because they don't sound even remotely close to what the Metro B with the Cummmins L-10. I always thought they sounded more like the M-11.
Wayne
which series are which buses?
which series are which buses? I don't really know the fleet numbers for metro bus.
Hmm...I don't recall that when I rode 9813; then again, this was back in 1997 and from the sound of it, I thought the M10 was a Series 50.
-F.
The Greenberg Train Show will be held for two days at Stony Brook University sports complex at Stony Brook, (LI) New York.
Show will be held Saturday, March 24th 11:00am - 5:00pm and Sunday, March 25th 11:00am - 4:00pm.
Admission.....$6 adults, $2 children ages 6-12. Scouts in uniform admitted free. Admission good for both days.
.....Exciting train layouts & displays
.....How-to clinics
.....Super hobby market*
For directions call (516) 632-7000
or visit www.greenbergshows.com
*Although this is a train show being reported on BusTalk, there are some dealers who sell Corgi Bus and PCC models too.
[... at Stony Brook University sports complex ... For directions call (516) 632-7000]
LIRR stops there on Port Jeff. line or Suffolk County bus routes #60 & 69.
At RxR station there is a univ. bus, but ask if you can board without a student ID. (the RxR station is a long walk from the sports complex)
BTW, my daughter is in her 3rd year there.
Mr t__:^)
Suffolk Transit DOES NOT RUN ON SUNDAYS. So if you go out there then, get another way to go.
Those of you wishing to ride the M35 and experience a ride on an almost new articulated can now do so. The operator assigned to run 3 on the M35 has been trained and now utilizes an articulated bus. Run 3 begins operating at 7AM and finishes at 7PM Monday through Friday. The run has a break around mid-day for a couple of hours. The bus used will either be 5506,5507,5508 or 5509. These buses were the last 4 of the 260 bus order which was just recently completed and are relatively new.
How about Weekend service?
Dominick Bermudez.
Early this year.
One time when I rode the M14 to grandma's House on E.6 St.I was on #8512 that was running the AVE D part of M14.The bus was going Southbond to Columbia ST and Delancey ST. By time it pull in to the BUS STOP on 14 ST and AVE D. Somehow AVE D was closed and The driver said this over the P.A. "The next stop is Houston ST". A few passengers got off then it went on the FDR and I got off at Houston ST and FDR. And I walked to E.6 ST to go to my grandma's house.
Dominick Bermudez.
TMC RTS#8512
hello i have a question that i need a little input over. I was talking with a friend and we were discussing hypothetically what if the b11 were to returned to rockaway parkaway would it be during rush hours only. well, we agreed on that but went on further to say thatduring the midays and even evenings it would run up to ralph av. because it would be able to cross ralph and turn left on 76th st i believe, turn back on to ralph and turn back on ave h. sort like the flabush b 6 does in the mornings runs sometimes. he says that is impossible and sugeest that it should end at utica. but i say that that is impossible since there would be difficulty turning the bus aroud to go back to sunst park. also i felt that if it were to run any where east of flatbush it should turn down avenue h and meet up with the 6 at ave hand albany. but like i said this is only a freindly discussion and i was wondering if any of this stuff is feasible if it were to happen? thank you
There is no need to extend the B-11 to Rockaway Parkway. It was a mistake made by the TA which in their wisdom they changed.
Orginally the B-11 passengers from Boro Park wanted the route extended to Coney Island Avenue/Avenue J in 1978. The TA wanted the extenstion but wanted to Ave J/E 16 St Subway Station. Residents their did not want the bus turning around next thing it was going to Canarsie. At the time of the extenstion the TA cut 13 runs from the B-6 . The TA in their wisdom about 6 yrs later cut the line back. Do not even fantasize the B-11 going back. Its not needed
Thank You
terminate it at Utica Avenue instead-more connections with the B46 and the B7. sending it to Rockaway parkway Station or Ralph Avnue is a bad idea.
from what i hear buses 2140-2189 will go to yukon. i assume the last twenty will go to ulmer park. buses 2075-2082 have been transferred to castleton to replace orion suburbans which it appears transit will retire after only eight years of service.
Yesterday, saw 3 2100 Series MCI Busses at Ulmer Park. Sorry, wasn't able to make out the exact bus numbers though.
Shaun
I would have thought the Orion suburbans would be sent to other garages (ie. the garages in Queens) rather than be retired. In a worst case scenario, maybe if the TA has no other use for the 1993 Orion suburbans, they could see if NYCDOT operators would want them.
>>"In a worst case scenario, maybe if the TA has no other use for the 1993 Orion suburbans, they could see if NYCDOT operators would want them."
Let's see...how would this transfer work?
First let's look at the TA internally. Without a doubt those suburban Orions would get sent to Queens, as it is the TA's dumping ground. CS has more than enough to fill the demand for it's X51 route. QV has enough, but maybe could use five to seven more as reserves for X68 runs. This would allow for the retirement of the 1982-1986 RTS's (or they could be reincarnated as locals). JAM could see an influx of Orions for their X63 & X64 runs to not only replace those horrid 48xx RTS's, but also to appease the MCI haters in Brooklyn. An all Orion JAM express fleet would allow for the Brooklynites to get their beloved RTS's back. Heck, it might actually give a seat or two to the underserved folks on the X63/64 who have to stand all the way into Manhattan, but that would be wishful thinking for residents of SE Queens.
This leaves the NYCDOT operators. You can rule out Queens Surafce, since it looks like CNG is the way to go there. Triboro has no place to put them, and I believe has CNG on it's mind too. Green...oh my, let's not even go there. I can already see ripped seats that are reclined all the way back with no chance of ever becoming upright again. Jamaica sure could use a few extra coaches to do express service, finally giving the RTS's back to the local routes. For some reason I doubt NYBS will ever allow an Orion back on to it's property ever again. This leaves Liberty Lines, which may not be a bad idea either.
Oh wait...here's the best one. LI Bus will get them and use them for who knows what.
The only move I'm want to see those Orions do is a move to Nimco.
But seriously, or more seriously, how can a few puny Orion Suburbans replace the large amount of 1982-86 RTS buses in Queens? They're at least over 100 of those. They can't even replace 20 year old equipment in SI. That just goes to show you the reliability of those buses. They'll probably stay in storage for awhile and be sent around like 4191 was, or, they will be sent to Queens. But why waste time and money training drivers just so a few buses won't be out of work?
I meant the Orions as replacements to the soft seat RTS's in Queens. There are maybe 10 of those between JAM & QV, coaches like 1740, 1767, 1852 and 3807.
The training of drivers to replace 10 coaches, four of which NEVER do express service anymore is ludicrous. The TA should cut their losses and scrap those 10 or so Orions and call it a day. It's not like they don't have 800 more of them.
They'll probably just convert them to local service. Yukon still has a few local RTS's, and S.I. was supposed to be totally Orion & MCI.
they wont remove the seats as the suburbans seating arrangement was built on a platform. ive thought of what they just might do and will describe it in a separate response.
Well, IIRC, the TA could take a bit of a financial hit if they retire the Orion Suburbans early, since the Federal standard is 12 years.
You can not run Orions at Jamaica Depot. They do not fit through the bus wash machine.
Figures the TA just keeps buying them when they can not fit in some depots.
Thank You
A bunch of the 1993 Orions starting with the first hard seater 93073 (later changed to 173) was to be assigned to Fresh Pond. When they sent it thru the bus wash, they discovered that the right side mirror would not clear the wash. Because of this, that bus was sent elsewhere and FP stayed an all RTS depot.
I would have done this instead. Replace the seats with local seats and sent them to Yukon, replacing the rTS buses once and for all.
Are the buses in question the Orions in storage at Edgewater, or is this a large group of 20 or more? Orions 121-124 are scheduled for a repower I hear. Anyway, if they do go back, they won't replace anything. 2270, 2660, and 4011 are obviously there for a shortage of local buses. And I doubt the TA would rip out soft-seats. They usually have more express bus shortages than local bus shortages. The Orions couldn't replace the SI RTS anyway because most of them are 1990-93 RTS.
[The Orions couldn't replace the SI RTS anyway because most of them are 1990-93 RTS.]
Of the 42 RTS buses in Staten Island - all of which are at Yukon - 12 are 1986, 6 are from 1987, and the remaining 24 of these buses are 1990 models. And, it's not like they are going to be retired on the spot, just swapped out from what it sounds like.
you forgot 2270 and 2660.
4011 and 4046 too.
S59#4046Gary
4148 still sports its original look. no white paint on doors and rear sides.
Ok, here's the POSSIBLE dillio: Some of CAS's Express ORION Coaches could head to Stengel for some extra service because with the repowering of the other '93 Orions, they are so short on buses. Why do you think they're building an annex to that depot for? Another point: I know a driver out of CS and he said that he had to wait for over a half an hour just for a bus, so what does that tell you? They used to place their spare buses in College Point Storage Annex but they can't do that now with the Jamaica Depot rejects in there along with Access-A-Ride Mini buses. The best I could say is that the 100 Orions will be split up among CS and QV-YES QV! 611-630 proves the point that QV can have Orions in their depot...maybe for good. I'd say they get a few of the 100 repowers to finally retire the 1982 RTS Suburbans and the 3800s that they have. I usually see 621 doing local service on the Q75. But we will never know what the MTA will do. They brouhgt back 2270 and 2660-so as far as the 100s are concerned, we just got to wait and see what happens, but I guarantee that they'll be out of SI Service very soon.
X14#149Gary
Q75#621Gary
I hope they're out of Queens soon. Orions should stay in SI and Manhattan. They shouldn't be anywhere else. Brooklyn, The Bronx, and Queens should be RTS and Flyer territory. The RTS woild still control Manhattan with an iron grip, but the Orions could share at least the undesireable parts.
I like the mixture. RTS Dominately all over, MCI in Manhattan, Brooklyn and SI. Orions in SI, Queens and Manhattan. Artics in Manhattan and Bronx and New Flyer C40LF CNG in Brooklyn.
B61#823Gary
BX12#5284Gary
M79#1001Gary
Q46#8391Gary
S44#6300Gary
X17#1894Gary
this is also what you can do. Send the Orions to UP and ship some of the 9200's to JA. This way, JA can stop complaining about not getting some new express buses. UP will get MCI and NOVABUS #9301-#9344 while NOVABUS #9280-#9300 to JA.
What do you think?
I don't understand why they number MCI #2140-#2209 & suppose to be #2805-#2874? Did MTA change there mind? Also are they going to renumber #2705-#2804 in the future?
Peace
David Justiniano
Soon to be NYCT-MTA Traffic Checker
It looks like I was mistaken about the M35 having an articulated assigned on a daily basis. The buses will be assigned there occasionally. My apologies to all for the misinformation.
1937: s78 begins operation
1962: MaBSTOA is created.
Till next time......
s78#8300Mike
Bill Newkirk's description of the bus is quite accurate. Right now, I'm looking at two excellent 8x10 black and white copyrighted photos of this bus, both right and left sides, and it is absolutely impossible to tell that this bus was not originally constructed as a 30-footer. Its rebuilding is an excellent example of what could be done with good engineering and employee pride. The bus was modified entirely by MSBA (now LI Bus) employees, in-house, at their Zahn's facility (which is now used as a dumping ground for retired buses prior to their last journey to the scrapper). A few of the current senior drivers noted that when this bus was completed and driven, it could actually do "wheelies," that is, if its driver accelerated too quickly, the front end would rise off of the ground. How this problem was resolved, I don't know, but logic would indicate some type of weight was added to the front end. Today, the only oddball buses, if you want to call them that, in the LI Bus fleet are a few Orion IIs and Thomas buses; the remainder of the fleet is comprised entirely of high floor Orion Vs, either diesel or CNG. However, about 20 of those fabulous beloved Gilligs, both the 35 and 40-foot versions, remain in the reserve fleet, although none has been used in active service for quite a while. The 1991 Orion diesels have held up fairly well, most have been repainted, and should the the Transit Authority ever wishes to dispose of its diesel soft-seat Orions, they would certainly be welcome by LI Bus riders on some of the longer runs, such as the N4, 19, 20, 21, 22 and 72, whose trips can sometimes be up to 1-1/2 to two hours each way, depending on traffic and other adverse conditions.
Are you going to put that photo on Bustalk? Everybody here want to see it.
Dominick Bermudez.
The photo is copyrighted, and cannot be put on the Internet.
What happened to the reserve fleet of several Flxibles and ex-NYCTA RTS's ? Are there any suburban fishbowls (101-120) out in back at Mitchell Field anymore ? I think NCPD got one or two of them.
About 8:20 this morning, I saw a red and silver Fishbowl headed down Broadway at 28 St. The destination sign said "CHARTER," the numbers was worn off (I made out a 7 on the side, but that's it), and it said "OPERATOR:" in small black type on the side, near the rear of the bus, but no operator information was given. The colors lead me to believe it's an ex-Avenue B & E Broadway bus, but that's just a guess. Just thought I'd share :).
Its an old Triboro Coach Fishbowl. TCC sold some old Fishbowls to a religious Jewish Bus Company who uses the buses for commuter service for very religious Hassidic Jews who prefer to keep men and women seperate. Believe the Bus Number was 74-
Thank You
The number was 744. I remember seeing it parked while I was on BQE East going to Queens on the side street. I believe that they also have TCC 624. Can anybody clarify this for sure?
Q47#624Gary(I remember seeing this bus there in '94)
Ah, thanks! I'm surprised I haven't seen it before :).
I know they have a former TCC GMDD T8H-5307A, but I don't remember the number.
Wayne
Its a good guess that the number is # 744. That would be T6H-5307A serial # 0149. As I have posted before former TCC # 743 is now a NYPD bus at Highway District #3 in Queens alongside the GCP near Francis Lewis Blvd.
I've seen that NYPD bus a few times; I always assumed it was an ex-NYCTA.
No, that bus is ex TCC#743. As I have posted previously, I stopped there one AM several months back and Sgt. Ken actually opened up the bus so that I could see the builders plate. #743 is still shows on the inside above the front window. Per the Ohio Museum of Transportation's website production lists TCC was the original owner prior to its donation to the NYPD.
Don't know where TCC 744 went prior to landing in the hands of the Orthodox Jews.
I believe you; I've only gone past it at high speed on the GCP :).
Don't feel bad, thinking that the bus was an ex-NYCTA (or Mabstoa)would be logical thought. I thought so too until I stopped there and took some pics. I was told at that time that the bus was supposed to be repainted into the new white with blue lettering of the NYPD but as of this past Wed. it hasn't happened.
I know it was 744 because A: I saw her sitting there while I was passing on the BQE and
B: I saw her at Kent Ave when I was on 8540 on the B61 a few years ago and saw 744-Operator Triboro Coach Corp on the side.
Like I said I also saw EX-TCC 624 fishbowl in the same location.
B61#8540Gary
Do they have the curtin down the middle?
Peace,
ANDEE
Those are 1974's.
I happened to ride on this bus yesterday on the Q60. Not only does it have Orange Balios destination sign but the talking system that is on this bus was either broken or turned off by the driver. Other than that the bus ran very smoothly-unlike her counterparts. I like 5503's sign much better than 5501. To me 5501 wasn't too bright. Seemed dim and the font of the route and destination were smaller than on 5503. 5503 you can see the destination from blocks away.
If I see any other Balios Signs on other GBL 5500 Orions, BT will know 1st hand because rumor has it that all of the 5500 Orions are due for this sign. Also saw 5512 5546 and 5550 with working green signs on the Q60 yesterday.
Q60#5501Gary
Q11#5503Gary
5501 has the second generation Balios sign thats why it looks slighty diferent. Either way I like the orange LEDS. Pictures of 5501 will be added to Transit World on our next update.
Peace,
Kevin
www.transitworld.org
Sounds like a similar problem to the Ballios signs on the Baltimore 99xx and 00xx NABIs. In shadows and darkness, the sign is very clear to read and understand; however in direct sunlight, the signs can be hard to read.
Saw #5501 and #5502 this morning. #5501 on Q60 and #5502 was NIS.
Dominick Bermudez.
Orion5 #5501
Orion5 #5502
In my opinion, I believe that Jamaica Depot got dogged getting 4873, 4875-4880 instead of 9260, 9262-9263, 9265-9267. I feel that Jamaica should swap 4873, 4875-4880 to get the Other Novas because I had 4878 today on the Q17 and boy did it run as slow as a turtle. I think grandma's grandma can move faster than this bus did. 4878 also had torn seats in them-in the rear. AND YET I feel that Jamaica should get the rest of the 4800s there-because they're short on buses even though I did see 9072 back i/s on the Q17 on Sunday. If the rest of the 9200s came to Jamaica, my luck would have it that they'd have it on the Q17. In a few years, expect those buses to be running in the Queens Depots-on local routes- I guarantee it!
Q17#9250Gary?!
Q17#4879Gary
Sounds kind of like the TA I used to work for. At Blacksbuerg Transit, the fleet includes a heterogeneous mix of 1986 and 87 35' and 40' Flx Metros, all with the same powertrain team. The 35' buses are slower than the 40 footers, which are babied since they are in more regular service (being a college town and all...home of Virginia Tech and the Hokies).
Strangely enough, the six 35' buses are variated in speed; the higher the number, the slower the bus (i.e. 2601 is the fastest, while 2605 is the slowest of the odds). Strangely, all of the evens are even slower yet (2602 is slower than 2605, and 2606 is the slowest of all). I was told by a driver that it all has to do with thickness and placement of engine mounts and brackets and their variation in each bus. Sounds strange, but I could see how this could possibly happen.
-F.
From what I remember from riding those buses on SI almost all of those 4800 series express buses are slow. There are 1 or 2 fast ones in that bunch. I also remember that one of them has blue seats (#4873?) like the GMC RTS suburbans.
Peace,
Kevin
www.transitworld.org
I was on one of those 4800s on the Q17 yesterday. The ride was slow, in part because the driver was trying to get the signs to work. Every few blocks down Kissena Blvd, I would hear the driver pressing the buttons. DestA-5-1-7-1-Ent Then the display would flash *BLANKING SIGN*
Then the display would be blank.
This also caused the driver to miss some requested stops.
I was on 4878 in the morning and in the afternoon I saw her going towards Queens College. I got on 4569 in the afternoon. I think I saw 4877 there also and her sign said Express. I saw 4879 on the X64 and in the back there was a green sign TAPED to the destination sign that said Express. I know the guy that did that though-It's a friend of mine and if the sign doesn't work, he has all the implications all over the place that the Bus is EXPRESS.
X64#4879Gary
Q17#4569Gary
"Blanking Sign" is normal operation for those destination signs. They will reamin blank until the coding is fully processed, usually less than 10 seconds, if operating normally.
Then there are times when a loose wire will knock out the sign upon each struck pothole or road bump. Nothing much you can do about that while on the road. Destination sign defects are not safety-sensitive defects, therefore that bus will remain in service until its scheduled return to the depot. The only exception would be a possible swap en-route with another bus pulling-in.
Luckily for me, I work a line in which service is provided by only one NYCTA local bus. Therefore my sign isn't that important. I also carry my own signage and use it regardless.
What line is that?
I guess somebody in the Dept Of Buses read your post because today 6 more 9200s arrived in from Ulmer Park. I walked through the depot and saw 9262, 9263, 9269, 9278 and 9279, all being prepped for service. I couldn't find the 6th one so I don't know what that number is. I was also told more are on the way! I looked at the older express buses to see what was leaving and only saw 3874 sitting on the side with the farebox removed. I would guess this also may be the end for 1740. But then again, you never know. I'll find out more info on Monday to see what is going to the scrap yard next and post back.
BIG AL
nyct testing routing to manhattan today. one bus went via brooklyn while another took new jersey. nyct will clock the time to see which is fastest. of course the traffic was light today through brooklyn. in other news nyc issued a request for proposals for the two private routes on si south shore with a deadline of april 13. i had a thought that since orions 125-172 are no longer needed nyct might try leasing them to this private operator. you may think this strange but this is nyct we are talking about. hanley atu president would probably go berserk.
Everybody knows were these buses are going to end up if they leave Staten Island:it is an almost automatic gimme that CS and QV (and maybe MCH in the Bronx)will end up thses buses.
I just heard about this race recently. How did you find out about this?
i dont understand this post. does anyone else.
I just wanted to know how the original poster found out about the race. That's all..
Heard this on Lite FM this morning while I was on the school bus on my way to The Hallen School in Westchester.
"SEPTA is on strike today. People have to find other ways to get to and from work this morning.There is no Bus,Train,and Trolley service until the strike is over."
Dominick Bermudez.
Already? Well, I guess that means that I'll now have a temporarly one seat ride to King of Prussia from Villanova. I hope everyone in the city is okay.
nothing I've read in the Philadelphia papers on line right now have indicated that they are on strike. Most said that people got to work ok, but may not be able to get home, but it doesn't appear that they are at this moment. From what I'm reading, they're close to a deal.
This evening they actually weren't on strike, so I don't think they actually are going on strike today, but who knows, maybe tomorrow. Luckily, people were able to get home.
Here's a hint that something may be up...
This morning, the TWU 234 negotiating team left the Wyndham Franklin Plaza hotel - the site of negotiations - and set up shop at their union hall at 23 & Spring Garden. Both SEPTA and the union say, however, that talks are proceeding and this could very well be a cost cutting measure by the union.
No Strike for now. As long as Mayor Street is involved, there will be no work stoppage
Nope. Still working according to septa.org and kyw1060.com.
The radio station where I heard this from is. 106.7 Lite FM.
Dominick Bermudez.
Good thing LITE FM isn't a Philly radio station, they'd be laughed out of town. STORY FROM PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER
Peace,
ANDEE
I remember and rode blue/white old-look suburbans that ran to Jamaica Station. I remember green/silver GM PD41's going to LGA and NYC. But, the airport circulator were these weird, boxy, tan-colored buses. Anyone remember what species they were ?
The intra-airport circulator buses were Merecedes-Benz. Carey Transportation operated it as well as the Jamaica route (which also served Flushing Main Street and LaGuardia) and the Manhattan express route. Now for real old-timers, who remembers when Carey had old-style Flxibles on the airport routes?
[Now for real old-timers, who remembers when Carey had old-style Flxibles on the airport routes?]
I really dug deep in my brain, and recollect that these may have been dark green. I believe that model was used in airport service in many cities across the U.S. It may have been nicknamed the Airporter.
Carey also ran between Manhattan and Newark, including 35' SDM-45's with a manual swing door. Domenico also had 40 foot suburbans with such doors. I remember seeing them in the early 1980's.
IIRC Carey ran the Flxible's with the bullet shaped backs. Recently Harran Transport of West Babylon, restored one. It was on display at a street fair in Merrick, LI last fall. I got some pics of the bus. I gave them to Trevor Logan to scan and return. Hopefully when he scans them, he'll post them here for all to see.
The silver and green PD 4106's were also Carey buses.
Sorry I don't remember the white and blue old looks.
I remember seeing a tv news story in the early-mid 1960s about a rail bus which had steel rail wheels as well as rubber tires. Wahtever happened to this vehicle
I want to know some information on a bus I saw (and took a picture [19-17] of) at JFK Airport. Buses like this always seem to be on employee shuttles. Can anyone give me any info on this bus?
That is a 1999-2000 Champion SoLo Low Floor Bus.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
WHY, WHY THE RTS SERIES ARE SO FAMOUS AROUND. TELL ME WHY.
Here's the reason why.
After Flxible closed down for good in 1996. After that. Complany's where seraching for a new brand of buses that the Complany's never ever ran before.The RTS's became Famous for it's stanless steel frame. And the Complany's that have Flxibles started to order RTS's in good numbers EVERYWHERE. Like NJ Transit and RTA for example.
Dominick Bermudez.
True that. After the demise of Flxible, the RTS is about the ONLY new-looking bus left. I live in a town where the Grumman 870s were replaced by Gillig Phantoms, and the Grumman STILL looks newer than what replaced it. You'd have to see them side-by-side to see the difference.
-F.
AFAIC, all these ADB's, except for the RTS, are ugly white boxes with black windows lacking any personality. You see anybody sheading a tear now that MSBA's Gilligs are gone ?
I don't think Gilligs count as ADBs; I'm not sure what you mean by AFAIC.
-F.
True, Gilligs are glorifies school buses like Thomas's.
AFAIC=As Far As I Am Concerned
YEP. YOU GO IT BUDDY, THATS WHY RTS ARE SO FAMOUS!
METROPOLITAN BUS AUTOHRITY OF PUERTO RICO USE RTS MODELS SINCE 1980. IN 1980:RTS 2, IN 1983: MORE RTS 2,IN 1995:RTS 6 METHANOL, IN 1997,1999,2001:NOVA BUS RTS 6. NOW IN PUERTO RICO METROPOLITAN AREA RUN RTS 6 AND FLXIBLE METRO'S.
THANK FOLKS.
ARTHUR SANTIAGO (NOVABUSRTS06@CS.COM)
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH! I'd LOVE to see pics of the Flx Metros from there. Any links?
-F.
Ask and ye shall receive. PR Flxible Metro
Peace,
ANDEE
Wow, very busfan-friendly site :). The RTS-ish windows on the Flxible and Flx-ish windows on the RTS are interesting, to say the least.
The RTS windows are actually Excels; the Flx has standard late-Metro fare windows which are similar to those on the RTS. Some suburban Flxes use Excel windows as well.
-F.
YEP,LIKE THE FLX TOO, BUT I LIKE MORE THE RTS. WE HAD OURS FIRST FLX 870'S IN 1987,1988. THEN IN 1990 PORT AUTHORITY OF PUERTO RICO HAD 3 FLX (30FT) "WAS NICE BABY FLX". IN 1995 ARRIVE THE LAST FLXIBLE METRO'S. FLX ARE NICE BUSES, BUT I LOVE MORE THE RTS.
Wow...I'd love to build a model of that thing!
-F.
Today, while on 34St. I boarded 9617. I noticed that there are no cloth seats on this bus. Regular seats. Also was on 3483. YES, 3483. She was still running good.
Saw 4158: Have the original paint scheme.
M6#9617Mike
M14#3483Mike
M34#4158Mike
[Today, while on 34St. I boarded 9617. I noticed that there are no cloth seats on this bus. Regular seats.]
Nova RTS buses #9525-9699 did not come with the vandal-proof cloth seats, but with the old-style plastic seats. There had been rumors around that the plastic insets may be changed to cloth at some time, but I don't believe that has happened on any of these buses yet.
It hasn't ,FP has 9569-9605 and those benches are yet to be padded(also like you mentioned HP's 9600's which I get on the M9 alot)
Just found out from a friend that she witnessed a shooting on the B82. As the bus pulled into E.84st and Flatlands Ave, a kid was shot point blank range in the forehead. The shooters ran off the bus. I know there were a lot sadnessamong passengers on that bus.
in todays new york post its reported passenger died. a fellow passenger fled bus at e 84 st.
The bus was 4431. The kid was sitting in the last single seat by the door. My friend is still shaken up by this tragedy as Im sure many passengers that were on the bus. I also have another friend who was "house browsing" in the area and saw the flares around the bus.
The red stripe on some ENY RTS's above the headlights on the passenger side which designate when the bus is to be fueled is also over the drivers side stop light on the rear of those buses.
Saw it on 4980 recently. Someone said that it's only on the Novas there. And why is ENY the only depot with that sticker? Why can't 9360 out of QV have that same sticker for example?
Q56#4980Gary
Q46#9360Gary
Gary, check back about one week ago under a thread relating to the Transit Museum ENY Depot Tour. It was mentioned in one of the posts that there are too many buses assigned to ENY that they can fuel them all at night. Therefore, the buses with the stripe are assigned to runs that return to ENY depot at least once during 8AM -4PM shift. When a striped bus arrives during those hours they must be fueled up immediately.
Does anyone remember the former Bx 21 Triborough Bridge route? When did it operate and from which depot?
The Bx 21 Triborough Bridge was created in the spring of 1974. It was formely called "TB". It ran from Astoria(37 Ave-21 St I believe) to the hub in the Bronx(not 100% sure). I believe that it was on the same table of the M-35 which was an OA route which means it could have been 100 St,Amsterdam, or 146th St depots. It was discontinued in the late 1970's. Hope this information helps but i am not 100% sure of the routing and depot assigned.
Thank You
I think that the destinations of the old Bx21 were 138 St - Jackson Aveune, Bronx and 37 St - 24 Av, Astoria. The Bronx destination was shared by another scrapped bus route, the Bx32 - St Anns Ave Line, which traveled north to 161 St.
The "TB" route had two branches, Manhattan to Astoria and Bronx to Astoria. The Bronx branch became Bx21 and the Manhattan branch became M35 (wasn't it M34 prior to that?). I always assumed that the Bx21 came out of the Walnut Depot since it terminated right there.
What was once the New York Omnibus Company "TB" route became three routes:
M34 - Lex & 125th to Wards Island (current M35)
M35 - Lex & 125th to 24th Av & 37th St (current M60)
Bx21 - Jackson Av & 138th to 24th Av & 37th St
They tended to be assigned to 146th Street depot. [They could never have been at Walnut, since M34 and Bx21 disappeared before Walnut opened.]
Later on, after the M35 took over the M34 (Lex-Wards Island-Astoria), it was bounced around among 132nd Street, 146th Street, Amsterdam, and 100th Street.
-----
BTW, the terminal at Jackson Av & 138th was shared by the old Bx21 and the old Bx3 (Prospect/Jackson Avenues). The old Bx32 (St. Ann's Av) ended at 132nd & Brook.
no text
Due to a complaint by Senator Wolf (R-VA), the Metro Board will not move on the applying "Taxation Without Representation" to all 1,400 MetroBuses. Wolf says buses are for transportation, not for political statements.
I'm not at all surprised.
Wayne
I have to agree with Sen. Wolf on this one. I think quite a few politicians in Maryland and Virginia - while perhaps sympathetic to the issues in DC - might feel a little put off by WMATA taking a political stand on any issue.
Saw this bus on the S61 today. It still has a 6v71 engine in it. Also, there is a cutout on the rear for a destination sign. It does look better than 2660 though.
Peace,
Kevin
www.transitworld.org
[there is a cutout on the rear for a destination
sign.]
That's kind of strange since the 1981 buses did not have rear signs.
Wayne
Probably just a swapped panel which has the route sign.
Do you have a photo of that bus?
Dominick Bermudez.
{Do you have a photo of that bus?}
I took two shots of this bus and will post them on Transit World early next week.
Peace,
Kevin
www.transitworld.org
Looks like they may keep 2270 for the long run. I think the TA may be considering another RTS rebuilding program. It's odd that nothing has been scrapped in awhile, and older buses are being pulled back into service instead of mothballed 1987 TMCs and Orions. So far 2270, 2660, 4010, 4011, and 4046 have been called back into service. They could have easily sent Orions do these jobs. It may be a test. Also, I read on a TTC site that it cost about 10,000 dollars to fully rebuild a GMC New Look and they the TTC balked at plans for rebuilding some Flyers becuase it would cost them 20,000 a bus. I'm pretty sure these are the right figures becuase it would be ridiculous to spend 100,000 to rebuild a 20 year old bus for 6 more years of service. In case I am wrong, does anyone know how much a basic RTS rebuild would cost? If it's 10,000 a bus, the TA could rebuild 300 of these for a cost of 3 million dollars. A steal if you ask me. Those 300 RTS rebuilds, most likely 1981-85 buses, could be used in conjunction with those Orions coming in. I really think the TA should have a fleet of 500 RTS rebuilds. That's not bad at all if you ask me. It's just like having a new bus, if it's built good enough.
It's odd that nothing has been scrapped in awhile... So far 2270, 2660, 4010, 4011, and 4046 have been called back into service
But some of those (e.g. 2660) have since been pulled from service and possibly scrapped, or at least disappeared from SBK without a trace.
The buses from SBK went to Nimco.
Peace,
Kevin
2270, 2660, 4011, and 4046 are at Yukon.
4010 is at QV.
2640, 3030 3033, 3909, and 4003 are the buses that have been sent to Nimco.
Whoops! I was confusing 2660 with 2640... here are a couple last looks of the latter.
Nimco#2640Mike
Look's more like it was in service. Still have AD's on that bus.
Dominick Bermudez.
2640 was sent to Jamaica to be put back into service in mid-January; it didn't make it :).
Hey, do you have any fishbowl pics?
No NYC fishbowls, only ex-RIPTA 7016 (1970 T6H4521), now Providence FD 7101, on my RIPTA page, and a couple NYBS 1982s that aren't online.
>>But some of those (e.g. 2660) have since been pulled from service and possibly scrapped, or at least disappeared from SBK without a trace.<<
Do you think that either The CIA or The Mob may have something to do with that because the buses may knew too much (LOL)?
If NYCT should decide to go through with such a plan, they should go full steam and replace the 6V71/6V92TA engines with new DD Series 50 powerplants.
Ehhh....Series 50 is okay, but I much prefer the 6v92 any day.
-F.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO! NOT MORE MISERABLE RTS'S! ANYTHING BUT THAT! AAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!! :^)
On another note, has anyone heard about the Novabus RTS plant in Roswell, New Mexico being shutdown? We just had a driver return to 126th Street who left 4 years ago to go work at the plant. He claims he lost his job because the plant was closed.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! No! Could it be my ominous dream is coming to pass!? I dreamed RTS production was halted!!!!!! Theybetter be opening another plant or something! I can't believe this! You see people, look at what your ugly white boxes have done! They've killed the king!
i rode it on the S61 today-about 1:15 p.m. i was on board. Except for a new engine, it looked the same. Wish they would put Grumman #236 in service instead of #2270. That would be a sight to see.
It still has the old engine I've heard.
BTW, They'd NEVER EVER put a Gruman back in service. Those buses were banned from the TA for life. 236 is kept as a reminder.
"236 is kept as a reminder"
That means that the 870's where here. If MTA like it and did have no problems with it. Would be alot of Metro's and 870's in MTA fleet.
Dominick Bermudez.
They would've been scrapped the moment they made 12, had they lasted that long. But, the TA would have had more of a mixed fleet. Instead of just buying RTS throughout the 80s, they would have bought Flxible Metros. Orions probably wouldn't have come into the picture until 1996, if at all. The TA would probably just be in it's beginning stages of nothing but RTS buses for it fleet of diesel and hybrid 40ft. buses.
For your information the NYCTA had 50 Flxible Metro-E's on order when Flxible went belly up in the Mid-90's(they were supposed to be numbered 1900-1950,Orion picked up the order and they became 631-680 instead)So actually the TA was ready give Flxible another chance,but alas it was too late.
Um, duh! Last time I checked a Grumman 870 and a Flxible Metro E were two different bus models. I knew about those Flxibles that were "on order" some FOUR YEARS AGO!!!!! Everytime I went to check what was up with NYC buses on bus rosters on the web in 1997, it would state that there were 50 Flxible Metros on order. Alas, Flxible died and the order died with it. But they DID ban Grummans for life, which caused them to impose those strict standards which caused them to order nothing but RTS buses for 12 straight years.
What exactly went wrong with those Grummans?
What happend was that the NYCTA tried to cut corners on their initial order Grummans (mainly a large engine on a small engine frame + some of the worse streets in the world = major structral defects below.)As some would say it was Grumman/Flxibles fault,but in actuality it was the NYCTA/MaBSTOA's fault(mean while the buses that were ordered for the the DOT and LIBus are fine so go figure.)
Numerous TAs had problems with the Grumman 870 buses. We had to rebuild 326 Grumman buses and then only 100 of them were even fit to stay. We sold the other 226 dirt cheap to be used for parts. The Grummans were built with those faulty A-frames. Any Houston driver can tell you that, it wasn't defective maintenance or cutting corners on Houston's part. We really tried to make it work with those buses but they were just horrible. They were worse than the RTS-01s we had. Well, obviouly becuase those made it to 1992 and the Grummans made it to 1982. In the end 100 were sent to Flxible to be rebuilt as Metro Model As. They came back at the same time the last RTS arrived and they lasted until 1997. Some of those RTS are still going. The point is, you can't blame the TA for something that was Grummans fault. I don't see one person blaming the TA for those subway cars which are experiencing some very minor problems in contrast to the BS the TA had to deal with with the Grumman buses. Besides, they built a giant complex to rebuild thousands of faulty 870s. Do you think they did that as a goodwill gesture?
To me Grumman and Flxible were the same and one.Flxible just used the Grumman name on the one bus model(because namely they were called Grumman Flxibles by the TA instead of 870's in NYC during there time of operation in New York.
I wonder what it was going to look like if MTA did got them? I would be guessing it was going to look like the MDTA Flxible Metro D's.
Well almost. Just a little diffent on the window part. About 2 Windows was going to be slideing excel window's.
Dominick Bermudez.
Flxible MetroD#1900.
I would guess that it would have been identical to the w/c Grumman 870's that the TA had in the early 80's with the Excel windows instead of the vent type.
I got some news for you kid. Those buses were not banned for life. Most people if anyone on this board may not know this, but before Flxible went out of business, there was an order in from NYCT for 50!
THAT'S RIGHT FOLKS. NYCT was going to try them out again. But Flxible went out and the 50 were never delivered. I was anxious to see these buses go back into service. IIRC, I had read that NYCT was mainly curious to see how a wheelchair lift mounted on the front of the bus was going to work out. That was the main reason for the order. But I guess NYCT also knew that the defects were worked out and the Flxible Metros were holding up pretty good at other transit companies.
BIG AL
OK. I'm guilty. I didn't read the rest of the posts on this subject before I put up my post about the 50 Flxibles, so I see you guys already know about it. However I don't agree that Grumman was banned.
Remember, Grumman was only one of several companies that owned Flxible. When the 870 came out, Flxible could very easily have still been owned by Rohr. Grumman just happened to be the unlucky owners of Flxible when the 870 mess happened. It really wasn't Grumman's fault, therefore NYCT doesn't hold a grudge against them.
BIG AL
This i saw in a magazine recently (i think it was a model magazine)-supposedly made by a copnay called Checkmate were buses in 1/76 scale. A double decker bus and a regular size bus. The design in the magazine looks like Orion V buses. Checkmate is in China according to the magazine. Anybody seen these?
There are LOADS of buses in 1/76 scale made in China....many are marketed as "Corgi Original Omnibus". They have Neoplan Cityliners, Van Hool "Alizee" coaches (similar to T800 but 2-axle), all sorts of British double-deckers, etc.
There are some companies that make loads of varieties of hong Kong double-deckers in that scale too.
At 5:00 PM. I saw a Orion5 on LIE in Queens. Somehow it was a oider Orion5. And that bus is carrying passengers. That bus was still in the "MSBA" Paint job. Can somebody tell me what Route was that. And I know that LI Bus don't run Express buses. It must be from a Contracted bus route.
Dominick Bermudez.
Huh?? No LI Bus routes are on the LIE. Perhaps this was a diverted bus, due to a closure. Was this a CNG Orion?
I've only seen OOS LI Buses on the LIE. Perhaps it was carrying passengers for a special "non revenue" event.
I forgot that someone at bustalk say that they take the X21 bus witch is a EXPRESS route by LI BUS.And I don't think LI BUS itself runs that route and must be a route Contracted by LI BUS. And the bus I saw was NOT a CNG Orion5. It was a older Orion5 Diesel that I saw. I saw this going over Queens Blvd on the LIE.On that bus just right behind the Rear Door it say's "MSBA". Today is St Patrick's Day. So could be a SPECIAL service by LI Bus for the Parade on 5 AVE.
Dominick Bermudez.
Yeah it was a special, no LI Bus route leads there. The X21 route was just talk, a proposal of an X-bus route, there is no such route run by LI Bus.
["...the X21 which is an EXPRESS route by LI Bus.]
Actually, the X21 is a proposed NYC Transit route on Staten Island.
What Long Island Bus operates is an N21 "Express": a handful of peak-hour N21 trips stay on Northern Blvd. without looping through Great Neck. Since that saves about 10 minutes, it somehow qualifies as "express."
The destination sign readings are as follows:
N21 FLUSHING
N21 NO G.NECK RR
N21 GLEN COVE
N21 NO G.NECK RR
I take one of those buses occasionally in the AM. The ride aint much quicker than during regular traffic, because of increased traffic in the Roslyn area.
It can take over 30 minutes just to get to the Manhasset area from Glen Cove with bottlenecks near Bryant ave in Roslyn and Northern and Searingtown Rd.
Once you get past Manhasset, it takes only 20 minutes to Flushing.
It would be nice if the N21 skipped Roslyn though and went via the viaduct (it can do that, left before the viaduct).
Then it would be quick!!
I take one of those buses occasionally in the AM. The ride aint much quicker than during regular hours, because of increased traffic in the Roslyn area.
It can take over 30 minutes just to get to the Manhasset area from Glen Cove with bottlenecks near Bryant ave in Roslyn and Northern and Searingtown Rd.
Once you get past Manhasset, it takes only 20 minutes to Flushing.
It would be nice if the N21 skipped Roslyn though and went via the viaduct (it can do that, left before the viaduct).
Then it would be quick!!
Maybe it was some kind of employee only bus for the St. Patricks Day Parade.
I saw an LI bus E/B on the LIE around 108th St at approximately 4PM. When I saw the bus I too thought it was transporting non-rev passengers back from the St. Patrick's Day festivities in NYC. Dominick didn't say where and when he saw a LIBus. Could have been the same one.... Sorry didn't catch the number, but I don't recall it being a CNG.
There was some kind of a G.O. on the Long Island Rail Road this weekend, possibly the Port Washington branch. They were using Long Island Bus to transport their passengers.
No, according to the LIRR website they were doing rail inspection on the Ronkonkoma branch and was between 12:30am and 4:30am Saturday, in the dark of night.
Saw the bus at Queens BLVD and LIE at 5 PM on saturday. And it was a Orion5 Diesel that I saw. And the bus still have the "MSBA" Logo on the bus still.
Dominick Bermudez.
Then the bus you saw was a different one than the one I saw. I passed that area at about 3:45 PM because my ticket from a parking garage in Brooklyn Heights said 4:16PM. Perhaps there was more than one contingent from Nassau County (marching bands ?)attending St. Patrick's Day festivities.
What you guys saw was an Orion doing service to NYC from LI to serve the St Patrick's Day parade. Buses from all over NYC go to the Parade via Charters. I remember seeing QSC 198 on 51 St between 43 Ave and Skillman a block or 2 from my house to bring the NYFD to the parade. That was about 3 years ago and it was the only time a QSC ran down my block.
N22#179Gary
Q66#198Gary
A CNG probably wouldn't be able to make it that far, especially the older CNG's powered by Cummins L10G. :-0
The episode on Fox 5 tonight at 7:30pm had Lisa riding the bus.
The route was the 22. But she got confused and post because she was supposed to ride the 22A, which the driver said ran Mon-Fri.
Now it seems they got that idea from the N22 and N22A, in which the N22A follows the N27 then goes west on Hillside, and only runs Mon-Fri.
It was a hilarious episode. The bus had a "hello, your operator is" sign like NJ transit, as well as Do Not Talk to the Driver.
Actually, she took the 22A which ran on randomly selected weekdays (it's Simpsons.)
Arti
Remember there was an episode were Homer had to retrieve his car from in front of the WTC and after drinking alot of crab juice he had to relieve himself and while trying not think about his bodily function a bus (that looked like a QS MCI Classic ) came by with the words Flushing Meadows.
Actually, it looked to me like an MTA Orion; also, it sounded like the bus had a 6v92-T.
-F.
Oh ok ,i have to look more carefully next time.
Here's a discussion of that episode and a Futurama episode...
http://www.straphangers.org/ubb/Forum23/HTML/000444.html
But can the N22A claim these stops:
Sycamore Avenue
Little Newark
Crackton
Industrial Access Road
Airport Refueling Way
Rural Route 9
Army Proving Ground
Keep in mind that "The Simpsons" is written out west. More than likely, the writers have never been to Long Island and don't know from Long Island Bus or the N22/N22A.
Maybe,but Matt Groening is from NYC.The Simpsoms Characters are loosely drawn from his Life in H-e-double hockey sticks comic in the Village Voice.
The Voice hasn't carried "Life In Hell" in years, unfortunately.
Peace,
ANDEE
I got a real scare today riding the Zoo-bound Q44 around 11 this morning. We were on 569 on Brush Avenue between Lafayette and Bruckner, passing the Msgr. Scanlon HS athletic field when a loud bang was heard.
A member of our youth of America had tossed what must have been a large rock that hit the top window of the back door, leaving a large spider web pattern. Luckily, the window didn't shatter, sparing the passengers the danger of being cut by flying fragments.
The driver didn't slow down, but when I got off at Tremont and Devoe, I told him. He must have known, because he matter-of-factly thanked me. This raises the question of what the driver is supposed to do if the window had shattered and passengers injured. Would he have to call EMS and the police? Put the bus out of service? Fill out a load of paperwork?
Since we didn't get much snow this winter, kids must feel gypped out of throwing snowballs at passing buses, so they have to improvise. This is the first rock I recall hitting a bus I was on, although a Q26 I was on got hit with a grapefruit along Hollis Court Boulevard.
Only once did I see a driver challenge snowball throwers. An out-of-service QS bus, probably deadheading from the Q65 College Point terminus to the garage, got pelted turning from 15th Avenue onto CP Boulevard. The driver immediately pulled over, got out and started chasing the "little chickens**ts", in his words. Naturally, they dispersed after a few seconds. Some bystanders applauded. Whether it was for the kids or the driver remains unclear.
It poses the question over whether it's advisable for a driver to do that, on a revenue run or not. Probably not, but they must get awfully fed up whenever there's snow on the ground.
Unfortunately, rocks can happen any time- and they're a lot more dangerous.
I can tell you many broken window stories from thrown rocks that happened on my bus while I was driving, but I don't feel like staying up all night typing it. Anyway, if the window breaks and people are hurt, then the operator must first get on the radio and call console to tell them what happened and for them to send an ambulence and the police. Needless to say, the bus will be out of service at that point.
And yes, the operator will have to fill out a ton of paperwork, both on the bus and back at the depot. But he does get 1 hour of overtime for doing all of this. As I said, my bus gets hit with rocks from time to time, especially around Holloween. I'm so used to it now I don't slow down or stop either, unless I know the window is broken or extremely shattered which happened many times now. But usually there is just a "STAR" in the window which I don't even bother reporting other than getting on the radio to warn console to say a message that kids are throwing rocks at a certain location that the operators should be aware of.
BIG AL
spotted this bus operating out of ulmer park. that is the reason for the nova bus transfers to jamaica. yukon now has 2140-2164 and has transferred 2075 -2091 to castleton to replace orions. several 2001 mci buses will be sent to ulmer park to replace nova buses due to passengers request.LOL.
How can there be a MCI bus 2175? It's not in the number sequence.
1998 DL3 are #s 1860-2039
1999 DL3 are #s 2040-2139
2000 D45 are #s 2705-2804
Tisk tisk tisk....someone hasn't been paying attention LOL
The 2001 models have been renumbered 2140-2209 for some silly reason by DOB. I forget exactly why.
I was on a 2700 MCI from Yukon Friday. Sunday, I passed by Yukon and the busses parked outside, some were in the 2700s, but the highest 2100 I saw was 2139.
I heard from a friend of mine today who went to Casey Stengel and he said that MTA Bus 543 was in some type of fire. The left rear went up in flames which could mean an engine fire? I don't know too many details but from what I heard the bus looks pretty bad but repairable.
Anybody knows details regarding this?
Q44#544Gary
What ever happened with the Viking Cruisers for Express routes? I heard they had to be retrofitted with special glass to conform with NYC requirements. However, I never saw any of them on the road. They looked like a decent bus.
These buses will return to NYCTA Service sometime (How Soon Is Unknown). They are chilling out in Detroit Diesel Lodi (Atlantic Diesel) getting thier modifications, I went out there two weeks ago and the exhaust pipes had been removed from the top of the bus. BUT I returned last friday and the roof mounted exhuast pipes have returned.
Also the original driver's partition that was on the bus has been changed to a similar partition that is on the TA's MCI D Series Cruiser. My impression is that these buses will return to NYCTA but when is the question. I also asked one of the management at DDC what is the deal with these buses. Apparently like we all know that height was a issue, HOWEVER, the guy had told me that the only garage that can fit these bus comfortably is Gun Hill which is useless since GH operates NO express service. So time will tell with these three buses!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Maybe if they were to return to service, Yikon could take them and park them outside like the MCIs. If the repair shop door at Yukon is too low, they could send them to GH Base Shop for all repairs, or make the entrance to the repair shop(maintenance) at Yukon higher.
you forgot one thing. maintainance would not be too thrilled carrying 150 gallons of gas outside to refuel them.
Could have been sent to QV for X68 service. BUT I would like to see one running on Q46. That will be FUN.
NewFlyer D45S#996
Does anyone remember that in the early 80's the Russian Embassy in NYC had a Prevost (Le Mirage, IIRC) to shuttle their employees between the embassy on the upper East Side to their summer place on Dosoris Lane in Glen Cove.
What made this bus stand out was that it was a Prevost in an era dominated by MCI's and GMC Buffaloes. Also it had Diplomat plates.
I wonder if the driver needed a CDL license and what other traffic restrictions it was subject or not subject to.
As for the licensing, with the DPL plates,who was going to bother it?
The Russians probably bought the Prevost rather than the MCI or GM because they didn't want to let the American capitalists profit fromt heir needs!!
With DPL plates, that would make it a private vehicle (RV), not a "bus company", thus there would have been no issue with licensing. Not to mention, there was no CDL in the early 80s - drivers often had licenses in multiple states. When they were pulled over on the road, they just broke out the one that wasn't suspended for tickets.
The president also has a Prevost - it's an H3-45 motorhome, painted similarly to Air Force One. Trevor had a pic of it over at TransiTALK.
FWIW, I saw an ElDorado with Diplomat plates on 9A near 42 St last weekend :). It was beige, with, IIRC, a red & a blue stripe. I think the Chinese consulate is in the area.
While on my way to school today, I saw 2 Suburban Coaches 1 behind the other. The 1st was an Orion Coach Suburban #613. It was running on the Q46 on run 034. Behind him was run 035 with bus 3818. I happen to ride on 3818 only bus in QV in NYCT scheme. I guess QV is down on buses once again. If buses 121-124 are repowered and sitting in storage, then why doesn't the MTA send them to QV? MTA once again= Money Thrown Away! Are the 1700s finally dead? Haven't seen or heard about 1740, 1751, 1767, 1773 and 1852 in a while.
Q46#3818Gary
1767 Was on the Q75 Friday Morning (3/16). With the propensity of the lox 600 Orions to show up on QV routes, it is a pretty safe bet to say they are short buses.
If Jamaica is getting Novas from Ulmer Park, then why can't they send the rest of the 3800s or 4800s-(despite that they're pretty slow) over to QV to retire the remaining 1700s? Jamaica has just scrapped 3874. 3833 3869 and 3967 could go to QV for extra service. Or like I said send some of those surplus 100 Express Orion Coaches over there to do some extra local service. I don't want to see Orions on the Pike, but I think it's a little better than seeing an old polluting 1982 Express RTS out there. Last I was near and on 1852-I was feeling queezy-a headache because of the smell of smoke. IDK how the others are but from what I see and hear-they're not much better. These buses have to be put out of their misery so we can end the 1982 Express RTS Contest already.
Q46#613Gary
I better off see Orion's on Q46. I never rode any QV Orion's yet. But saw it one time on Q46 on a weekday. I would like it to see all weekend service on Q46 useing Suburbans. Instead of 9300's/4900's/and 8300's on the Pike.
Dominick Bermudez.
The last time I looked, Edgewater storage in Staten Island has a lot of busses there, mostly GMC Suburbans, all in good shape and the majority in the 3800 series, as well as some more 4800 series. Yukon has no need for them. Why keep them there?
Another thing. Often in the morning and afternoon, especially on routes that serve schools, there are extra busses running, including the surburbans, on local routes to make up for the extra volume. When I was picked up after school in Staten Island by the NYCTA school specials, the busses would be the suburbans, and after the run on the local route, they would go to Manhattan for their express runs. Also, when the depot was short on busses due to repair, they would run the express busses on local routes to make up.
Yesterday while driving back to MD from NYC I spotted what appeared to be a 30 foot long SEPTA bus heading N/B on I-95 in Northern Maryland. Since I was driving very fast I really didn't have a chance to turn around. I know SEPTA has Orion II's, but this bus was something else. Anyone know what type of bus this was???
Wayne
for one thing, SEPTA
SEPTA doesn't have Orion IIs. Those are Phlash buses. The 30ft bus you saw was an El Dorado Transmark RE, the newest additions to the SEPTA bus fleet. I don't know why it was in Maryland, though.
Thanks for the info - I was thinking that the Philly Phlash was a SEPTA operation, but I stand corrected.
Wayne
The ElDorado plant where the SEPTA buses are being built is located in Southern California (Chino). It's possible that the buses are arriving from California to Philadelphia via I-95.
Either that, or that particular bus could have been on a sales call of sorts. When SEPTA introduced it's new Neoplan artics, the pilot bus for that order - 7101 - was apparently used as a sales bus up in Westchester County, NY, following the APTA conference in Orlando in the fall of 1999.
Maybe Wayne or some of the other DC area bus folks can confirm this, but I think some of the Connect-a-ride buses in the Laurel area are due for replacement soon. These are the Orion I buses I am talking about.
Would they really drive the buses all the way from California to Philadelphia though? Maybe it was on a sales call anyway.
I had thought that was the standard procedure for deliveries.
Perhaps it was a sales call, but Baltimore already has some new 30 ft buses (4 Thomas SLF 230 - decent buses, BTW) and WMATA is virtually joined at the hip with Orion as it relates to 30 ft buses (and, for that matter, those Orion IIs). But, I honestly don't have a clue where they were coming from or where they might have been.
I'm not at all familiar with Laurel's bus service because I'm rarely in that area during the hours of operation. I seen them a few times and they were basically small trucks. They did appear to be pretty run down. I've never seen an Orion in Laurel. At one point I was wondering why Prince George's County THE BUS did not provide service, but it seems that THE BUS doesn't really operate too far outside of the Hyattsville and surrounding areas. Also Laurel actually lies in 3 different counties - Prince George's, Anne Arrundel and Howard.
Wayne
When I was in the Baltimore/DC area a few weeks ago, I remember seeing a few Orion I buses at Laurel Ctr Mall. During the week, Metrobus routes 87, 89, and 89M operate between Greenbelt and Laurel via US 1 (89/89M) or the B-W Pkwy (87). On Saturdays, Connect-a-ride operates the service via US 1 as Route H.
Apparently, THE BUS does not cover that much of a territory to begin with. It appears to be limited to Largo, Upper Marlboro, New Carrollton, Greenbelt, and it's nearby Metrorail stations. Even then, THE BUS only operates on weekdays. The bulk of the bus service in Prince Georges is operated by WMATA.
I do know that Connect-a-Ride buses actually operate both within Laurel and beyond to Arundel Mills, Glen Burnie (Cromwell LRT station), Odenton, Columbia, and Burtonsville.
Howard Transit (FKA Howard Area Transit System - HATS) also introduced a service between Columbia Mall and Arundel Mills and BWI Airport. Problem is, they use cutaway buses (on a Navistar chasis)similar to those you might spot at LI Bus on it's paratransit service.
Both CAR and HT are operated by Corridor Transit Corporation, which is affiliated with the Baltimore-Washington Corridor Chamber of Commerce.
I think THE BUS is planning an expansion of service into more of that part of PG County. I'm not sure if they are planning on taking over current WMATA service or supplement it. I know the regional transportation committee is finding ways for counties to take over or contracting back WMATA runs leaving WMATA with only 75% of the service that is deemed of "regional significance". This would be routes that cover multiple jurisdictions. The inter county routes would be operated by the counties or contracted back to WMATA. Arlington County is already talking about taking over parts of the 10B,C,D runs near Arlington Hospital because the residents don't like the big buses coming down their streets.
I think Howard County used to have 30' Flx Metros as well. I've seen some Gilligs on THE BUS near District Heights as well as some El Dorado vehicles at the PG Plaza Station. They also run part of the F2 route through Bladensburg, because again, the residents moaned loud enough to have smaller vehicles take over that part of the route. WMATA was forced to create a new route F1 that kept it on more of the major roads.
I've never seen the Connect A Ride buses. The 87 used to run all the way to downtown DC and the 89 to Rhode Island Ave. Metro until the Greenbelt line opened up. I know the people on the 87 were not happy about losing that one seat ride to DC.
I recently saw a picture on the Transitalk webcite. It was under the bus section for MTA under LI Bus. It showed a garage in LI with LI Bus Fishbowls, in LI Bus Scheme, as well as NYC MTA Fishbowls with the words "LI BUS" spray-painted on the front of them. I thought all of the fishbowls were scrapped by NYC. It appears that they are in LI in a garage. Why, besides the ADA ruling concerning disabilities and wheelchair lifts, would these buses be in LI like this? Why not keep them in NYC? They were remanufactured in the 1980's and would seem to run well.
About 7 ex-NYCT Blitz rebuild went to LIBus some years ago to replace Grummans. These fishbowls were scrapped 3 years ago. All the 800 series MSBA fishbowls were gone before the Blitz's arrived.
Actually there were a lot more than 7 ex-NYC Blitzes at LI Bus, I counted 23.
I suppose the ex-NYCT RTS's sent to LIB are gone too ?
You just missed those ex-NYC RTS's at LI Bus by one year. They were towed out to where I dont know. There's 2 pics of them at Transit_world.com under the peoples page.
I managed to get one on the N22A back in Oct 99-4322 I do believe(formerly 1322 out of ENY)That and I caught one the Blitz rebuild on the N4(5335 I think;used to be a suburban before the rebuild because it had the Blue Plastic/Chrome SEPTA style forward facing seats)in Jan 96 the Fri after the blizzard.(both times during rush hr as well.)
I looked at those pics and remember being on a couple of them. 5520 was out of Gleason a 1973. 5122 was out of Gleason late in it's life it was a 1968 and had express seating. 5244 was probably a 1970.
LI bus also had at least one 5500 series express bus.
Wayne
SOMEWHERE IN NEW ENGLAND. I DON'T KNOW WHY THE MOST RTS IN THIS BUS AUTHORITY ARE SO DIRTY, YEA. IS RARE YOU SEE ANY CLEAN BUS. WHEN I WENT TO THIS BUS AUTHORITY FACILITY TO TAKE SOME PICTURES,A MECHANIC ASK ME: HOW DO YOU THINK ARE OURS BUSES, TOO DIRTY? WELL LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPEND.
"RTS 6"
You must be talking about the MBTA. Yeah, their buses may be dirty, but at least it's an all RTS fleet.
I'M A BIG RTS FAN, THATS WHY I LIKE SEE ALL THOSE RTS CLEAN AND NICE. I THINK THEY CAN DO A GOOD JOB. KEEPING ALL THOSE RTS CLEAN.
*RTS 6*
When I was up in Boston in August they were clean. I think its snowed so much that the salt and junk is getting on the buses and its not worth cleaning them only to have them get filthy again. Plus, with the big dig going on, everything up there will be a little dirtier than normal.
Yeah, that's probably the reason. i know whenever it snows here and salt is put on the road, the SEPTA buses look nasty.
Delete
Express
-------------------------------
M57 Sutton Pl
Crosstown
is now
M57 East Side
Sutton Pl
Crosstown
--------------------------------------
M57 Bway--72 st
Crosstown
is now
M57 West Side
Bway=72 st
Crosstown
----------------------------------------
M57 11 Av
Crosstown
is now
M57 11 AV
----------------------------------------
M57 8 AV
Bx16 Webster Av
=========================================
B40 BWAY JCT
PENN AV
IS NOW
B40 EAST NY
ATLANTIC AV
------------------------------------------
Q14 WHITESTONE
3 AV
==========================================
Q59 FRESH POND
GRAND AV
IS NOW
Q59 64 ST
GRAND AV
==========================================
S92 LIMITED
S I COLLEGE
VIA VICTORY
X21 EAST MIDTOWN
VIA 3 AV
X21 PLEASANT
PLAINS
VIA ROSSVILLE AV
VIA BLOOMINGDALE RD
X22 EAST MIDTOWN
VIA 3 AV
X22 TOTTENVILLE
VIA ROSSVILLE AV
VIA AMBOY RD
Note the x21 and x22 out of Yukon Dept
---------------------------------------
X51 MIDTOWN
3 AV ---59 ST
IS NOW
x51 EAST MIDTOWN
3 AV--57 ST
That Q14 3rd Ave sign will never be seen as the "good citizens of Malba"pulled a NIMBY on the TA and some how sucessfully prevented the TA from extending the route(plus it pays when you live in a neighborhood with money)
The "Q14 WHITESTONE/3 AV" reading was for the recently rescinded extension - the NIMBYs are still dancing on its grave.
M57 Westbound
from the Terminal on East 60 street .South Curb ,near side of York Av ,South on York av,South on Sutton Place,South on Sutton Place South ,West on East 55,NOrth on 1 Av,West on 57 st,North on 11 Av,North on West End Av,,East on 72 St,to last stop on near Side of Broadway..
Non Revenue via West 72 st,North on Amsterdam Av,to layover ,on West Curb .far side of 72 st.
M57 Eastbound
From Terminal NON REVENUE North on Amsterdam Av,West on 73 St,South on BroadwayWest on 72 St to stand ,Far Side of Broadway.
Continue West on 72 st,South on West End Av,South on 11 av,East on 57 st,North on 1 Av,East on 60 st,to last stop ,,Near Side of York Av
M23 Westbound
from Avenue C.Near Side of 20 Street via West on 20 St,North on 1 Av,West on 23 St,North on 11 Av,West on 24 St,South on Route 9A,to Layup bet 23 and 22 St,IFO Chelsea Piers
(West Side of Street)
M23 Eastbound
from West 22st at Chelsea Piers layup via East on Route 9A at the Traffic Light.North On Route 9A..East on 24 St,South on 11 Av,East on 23 St,South on Av C,,to Stand on Av C,Near side of 20 St
Who calls 12th Avenue Route 9A?
NYSDOT does, these days.
Who calls it 12th Avenue? It's the West Side Highway.
How is it different from current routing?
Arti
Current routing goes into CP loop.
Brooklyn Bound via Regular ,,Sand Lane,Father Capodonno Blvd,,Lily Pond Road
Richmond Terrrace Bound via
Lily Pond Road,Father Capodonno Blvd, Sand Lane,and Regular
COOL. NYCMTA, NEW JERSEY TRANSIT MBA OF PUERTO RICO AND SOME MORE BUS AUTHORITY, THEY KEEP A NICE AND CLEAN BUSES, THATS GOOD. WHY SOME BUS AUTHORITY CAN KEEP A NICE AND CLEAN BUSES, AND OTHER CAN'T DO IT? WELL LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPEND.
*RTS 6*
It takes money, resources, and dedication to keep a fleet of buses clean. Some companies just might not be able to clean their fleet every day. I always clean my own bus anyway. I go through the bus wash, clean my windows, sweep the floor if necessary, and remove any hanging garbage from torn signage, etc. After all, I'm gonna live in that beast for the next 9 hours, it might as well be clean.
Northbound
via 5 av, 9 st,4 Av,Baltic St,5 Av
Southbound
5 av,Warren St,4 Av,9 St,5 Av
That's the B-63, not S-63
I am sorry ,,I did alot of this stuff at 4 AM after work
7 AM to 7 AM
EASTBOUND
Eastbound to Jamaica Av,far side of 134 st,,Standing on Jamaica Av far side of 134 st
Westbound
after layover to continue on Jamaica AvMetropolitan Av,turn left on Metro Av,
7 AM to 7 AM
EASTBOUND
Eastbound to Jamaica Av,far side of 134 st,,Standing on Jamaica Av far side of 134 st
Westbound
after layover to continue on Jamaica AvMetropolitan Av,turn left on Metro Av,
January 21
Madison Av bet 23 and 25 closed to Bus Traffic becuase of Madison Park Construction
All Staten Island and Brooklyn Express Routes that operate eastbound on East 23 st,Left on Park Av South ,,,,Left on East 25 st,to Madison Av
then turn right on Madison Av.
Brooklyn,Staten Island ,and Queens Express Route s that operate Westbound on East 23 st,will turn right on Park Av South to East 25 st,Left on east 25 to Madison Av and Turn right on Madison Av
that has been changed. eastbound bklyn and express buses turn left on 6th ave, right on 26 st and left on madison between 6-10 am. the above detour is in effect other times.
Thank you
Steve
[All Staten Island and Brooklyn Express Routes that operate eastbound on East 23 st,Left on Park Av South ,,,,Left on East 25 st,to Madison Av
then turn right on Madison Av. ]
That's going to be a nightmare, it's qute typical for delivery trucks to double park on 25th.
Arti
updated from Previous Listings
BRONX DIVISION
Amsterdam Depot
Bx3,6,13,15
M100 M101,M104
------------------------------------
Gun Hill Depot
Bx1, 4,5,8,9 ,12,14,16,17,22,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,34,
Bx36,40 ,42
Kingsbridge Depot
Bx1,2.3.7.9 ,10,11,.13.16.18.20,28,31,32.35,36,39,41,55
---------------------------------------------
Mother Clara Hale Depot
Bx19,21,23
M1.7,30.98. Lenox Av Shuttle (SH)
---------------------------------------------
MANHATTAN DIVISION
126 St Depot
M15,31,35,57,66.116
Manhattanville Depot
M2,3,4,5,18.60,98 101,103
Hudson Depot
m6,8,8,11,14,16.21.22,34,
Q32
Michael J Quill Depot
M10,20,23,27.30.42,50,72,79,86,96.98.102 106
X90 X92
BROOKLYN DIVISION
East New York Depot
7,8,12,14,15,17,20,25.40,.42,45
B60,82,83
Q24,Q56
Jackie Gleason Depot
9,11,16,23,35,37,43.51.61..63,65,67,68,69,70,71,
75 ,,77
Flatbush Depot
2,6,31,39,,41,44,46,49,,78
--------------------------------------------
Fresh Pond Depot
B13,18,20,,24,26,38,39,48,52.54,57
Q54,55,58,,59
Ulmer Park Depot
B1,3,4,6,
B36.64.74
X25,27,28,29
QUEENS DIVISION
Casey Stengel Depot
Q12,13,14,15,16,20a 20B,26,27,,28,32,44,48,
X51
Q58,74,76
Jamaica Depot
Q3,4,5,17,42m
X63. 64
Q77,84,85
Queens Village Depot
q1,2,30,31,
X32..68
Q36.43,46.75,79,,73,88
STATEN ISLAND DIVISION
Castleton Depot
X3,10.11.12.13.14.16,18.20
S40.42.4,46,48,51,52,,53,54,55,56,57,59,60..62.66.67,
S74,76,78,90,92,94,96,98
Yukon Depot
X1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,15,17,19,31
S31,54,55,56,59,61.74,76,78,79.91
===--==============================================
Bx1 now split depot -KB and GH
Bx8 discontinued Split depot --to GH Depot
Bx9 Now Split Depot ---KB and GH
Bx12 Discontinued Split Depot--to GH Depot
Bx36 from 3 depot to 2 Depot now--KB and GH
Bx4042 Discontinued 3 depot to GH Depot
X2 Discontinued Split depot to Yukon Depot
X9 same
You put the X21 and X22 on the destination sign readings but not on the depot list. Are they only programming the signs for those routes in expectation of their start?
yes
Yukon Correction on their local routes:
S55/S56,S61/S91,S79.
There is NO S31 route.
x1 x2,x3,,x4,5,6,7,8,9,15,17,19..
X 31
S54 55,56,59, 61 74 76 78 79 and S91
This is UP TO DATE
Split Depot Operation for the x3.S54,S55,S56,s59..S74 S76 S78
Bx1 Grand Concourse-----KB and GH
BX3 University Av=======KB and AMS
BX9 Bway-Kingsbridge Rd-Southern Blvd---KB and GH
BX13 Ogden Av=======KB and AMS
BX16 233 st---Nereid Av----GH and KB
Bx28 Gun Hill Rd-Coop City----GH and KB
Bx31 Eastchester Road ===GH and KB
Bx36 Washington Hts--Clason Pt----KB and GH
Bx39 White Plains Rd----GH and KB
m30 72 st--5 av--57 st--Quill and Hale
M96 --Quill and Manhattanville
M98 Washington Hts Ltd--Quill and Hale
M101 3 av--Lex Av--Amsterdam Av===MH and AMS
B6 Bay Pkwy==Av J--Flatlands Av---UP and FLA
B20 Decauter Av --FP and ENY
B39 Williamsburg Bridge---FP and FLA
Q32 Roosevelt Av--5 Av---Hudson and CS
Q58 Ridgewood--Flushing --FP and CS
X3 New Dorp via Hylan Blvd -Downtown Exp--Yu and Ca
s54 Manor Rd --Ca and Yu
S55 South Richmond Loop---Yu and CA
S56 South Richmond Loop---Yu and CA
S59 Richond Av---Yu and CA
S74 Richmond Rd--Arthur Kill Rd---Ca/Yu
S76 Richmond Rd--New Dorp Lane---CA and YU
S78 Hylan Blvd--Tottenville--CA and YU
its the end for the B6 i see at ULP. The splits on the 6-is that the same as it is now with FLA(trips to Nostrand Av wkdy rush hours ?)
I believe the trips from the "L" train/ or Ralph Ave to the 2/5 trains at Nostrand is operated out of Flatbush depot rush hours only.
B6#5117MikeLTD
Note that the nature of the "splitting" varies from route to route:
Q32: More or less even between CS and HP, all three days.
B6: Route assigned to UP, with 2 weekday runs at FLA doing VERY short trips.
B20: Weekdays divided between FP and ENY; weekends FP only.
B39: Route assigned to FP; overnight service operated by runs on Q54 (FP) and B46 (FLA).
Q58, S54, S55, S56, S59, S74, S76, S78: Route assigned to one depot, with some school trips operated from the other for efficiency.
Bx1, Bx3, Bx9, Bx13, Bx16, Bx28, Bx31, Bx36, Bx39, M30, M96, M98: Route assigned to one depot, with extras from the other due to fleet constraints. (Some depots need all their buses for the AM peak and have spares in the PM; others need all their buses for the PM peak and have spares in the AM. Strategic mixing and matching allows the required level of service to be offered with the minimum number of buses.)
M101: Route asigned to Manhattanville. Several M104s that would otherwise deadhead from 42nd & First to 129th & Amsterdam are instead sent live as M101's.
X3: Route assigned to YU, with one or two peak-hour trips from CA incorporated into Miscellaneous runs.
HI.
I just would like to know what are the ODD's of getting a Suburban on Q46? At what is the best time to get them on Q46?
Dominick Bermudez.
Figure, during the AM rush, from Springfield Blvd where service is expanded, there are about 26 scheduled buses headed to Kew gardens. If you wait at Utopia Parkway, your chances increase due to the unscheduled added short trips beginning there. If you wait at Utopia between 7:10AM and 7:40AM, I can almost guarantee you will see an Orion.
Note: Not all drivers have been instructed on these buses, and only those who request them will have them. Funny thing though- when we are given our annual driving test from the TA school, we are forced to drive Orions out of Flushing, yet... nobody ever trained us officially for that. "It's a bus, drive" is what we hear... interesting :-)
Personally, I'd driven both Diesel and CNG Orions out of JGL when I worked there back in 1995. I prefer the RTS, and of course, the 8000 series especially. You'll never see me with an Orion unless I'm under it... :-)
Under What?
Orion5 #611
>>"You'll never see me with an Orion unless I'm under it... :-)"
Unfortunately for X68 riders, we have no choice. I think I'd rather walk... :-)
Can someone raise the roof at QV so the New Flyer Vikings can fit? Pretty Please??
You make light of a serious issue- QV is out of storage space. The garage had ample opportunity to purchase a piece of land (which is now owned by Lincoln Studios) directly across 97th Avenue (which appears as a private driveway for Queens Village). Apparently they didn't feel the need. I would guess that at least 40 buses could be stored there, maybe more.
Too bad the design, nor legistative obligations with the Community Board allow a second floor. I was fascinated when I worked out of Manhattanville, with buses stored on 3 levels, parked via route.
Upon transfer to Gleason, facilities such as CNG fueling are outdoors, and parking outdoors is permitted. This is an industrial area zoned for such activity, however QV is not, and would be in violation of agreements with the local CB should buses be stored outdoors.
Anyway, I feel for you on that X68. Those buses are loud and boaty. Stuffy too LOL! Thankfully, I don't work the X. What can I say? Take the 43 to the subway, or hike up to Union and grab one of those QS buses with no rear doors (whatever they are)!
Funny thing is that one time I did visit QV, I thought 97 Ave. was the driveway. I doubt there are plans for a new QV depot, since the current one went up in 1974, but one can hope. With the population boom in Queens, how long will it be before routes like the Q43 and Q46 *have to* go articulated, thus requiring additional storage facilities.
>>"Take the 43 to the subway, or hike up to Union and grab one of those QS buses with no rear doors (whatever they are)!"
Those QS whatchamahoozit's are MCI Classics. They seat 53 and also allow for about 17 standing. As for the Q43, no thanks, I see those things leaning to the gills each morning ;-).
The articulated bus cannot make the turn at Long Island Jewish Hospital. We also can't accomodate those buses because we're at (actually over) capacity right now. We did have an articulated run through the fuel line, the wash, and surrounding garage areas, so I'm sure we will see them sooner or later. Later I hope. Much later.
I doubt that there will be a new QV anytime soon. There is always some kind of work (be it facade construction or otherwise) being done to improve what we have now.
Thanks for the info on that QS MCI Classic.
New Trolley Service Rings in Bethesda
Michael Gartell, wtopnews.com
Steve Eldridge, WTOP News
A little bit of old town Washington is coming to Bethesda. A new service called 'Faux' trolleys looks like something out of the past ... they even have bells.
They are actually big square buses, and look a lot like the tourist trolleys downtown. They are painted in a retro motif and will run every eight minutes.
State Delegate Bill Bronrott is happy to have them on board in Maryland.
"The buses I think are a great addition ... it sort of brings back memories of old Washington."
The push is for people to take metro into bethesda and then use the trolley to get to businesses or the almost 2,000 restaurants in town. But for the time being, the trolleys will stop running at 7 p.m. and have no weekend service.
--END OF ARTICLE--
What might this mean?
My hypothesis is...
Route 92 becomes WMATA operated again. This might be the testing ground for the Downtown DC CBD Trolley. If the 92 trolleys work out, my guess is that WMATA gets to operate the trolley if it is ever insinuated.
Anyone agree/disagree?
BTW, the trolleys go to the 92 because it says the service operates every 8 minutes :-)
Now, they just need weekend service!
I actually saw the trolley on channel nine on the 6 o'clock news and it had ride ons name on it. IT was numbered 015298. They said Montgomery County purchased three of them to use on this route. It would be nice to have it on weekends too, much better than trying to park in downtown bethesda on saturday nights. I'm not sure what WMATA will do now for Ride On, or if they will just end up giving the routes little by little back to Ride On to operate directly.
I have never been a big fan of these "replica trolley buses". OTOH, I never really liked those stupid looking Metrotrans cutaways they use on some of their shuttle lines. If you've ever seen some of the NYC paratransit vans, then you'll get the idea. They actually make SEPTA's Breeze cutaways as attractive as a GM Fishbowl (god forbid).
Just wondering, though. Did you notice if 015298 had Maryland or DC tags? I know that some Ride-On buses are painted in Ride-On blue, but have DC tags, indicating that they're WMATA operated.
Speaking of interesting things with license plates, I noticed that some of the buses running on Prince George's County's THE BUS system have "LG" tags that indicate they're owned by the county, but others have a standard commercial tag.
By contrast, the Breeze cutaways operated by SEPTA contractors have the regular Pa. Mass Transit tags without registration sticker (indicating that they are gov't owned).
I didn't catch the licence tags. They showed a brief glimpse of the whole bus, but mainly concentrated on the insides of it. The way these people were clamoring over this thing, you'd think this bus has some kind of magical powers. Well, it does make me want to NOT ride it, that's for sure!!! I have a feeling it has MD tags.
I was just reading an article, I guess it was the Montgomery Gazette, online and they are talking about fudning the Bethesda 8 to run until midnight and on weekends until 2. At least this is in the "proposed" MD budget that will probably get chopped up a million times before its finalized.
That's strange that THE BUS's tags had different versions. Maybe some are from a contractor and not owned by the county?
I think that's the case with some of the PG operated buses. I think the contractor is ATE/Vancom (I don't know if that's what they're called now that First Group bought out Ryder), but I don't know for sure.
As for the Bethesda 8 shuttle - and transit funding in general for Maryland - the Glendening administration has already committed funding for that service, along with other major transit enhancements withing the DC and Baltimore areas, as well as the rest of the state.
http://www.mdot.state.md.us/news/TransitVision/index.html
Two things in the proposal that stood out for me were the plans to run WMATA service from Greenbelt Metro to BWI Airport and a plan to standardize bus fares in Maryland to $1.10 and introduce a universally accepted $2.50 Day Pass (which could be used on buses, for example in Baltimore, Annapolis, Howard Co, PG County's THE BUS, Connect-a-ride and Ride On - I don't know if that includes Metrobus routes within Maryland or not).
I don't think the PA Mass Transit plates tell whether the bus is gov't owned or now. Many charter companies (Coach USA included) around Pittsburgh have the Mass Transit plates just like PAT does because they do some commuter service and line haul service within the county. PAT (gov't agency) does use the registration sticker btw (some solid with no numbers, some have the numbers and a few coaches still use Municipal plates). The charter companies are the same with some having solid stickers and others having date stickers within the same fleet even though the buses are privately owned.
It is a Ride-On bus. Only Ride-On buses have their "birth-years."
Here is a photo of the new trolley-bus. It appeared in today's Chevy Chase Gazette.
Click here for photo of new bus. (May not work, if it isn't working, email me by clicking my handle!)
The article says full service should begin Monday and weekend service will start when a fourth trolley is funded by the state.
Full article available at http://www.gezette.net.
I found the picture at the Gazette's web site.
http://www.gazette.net/newspics/200112_trolley_b21a_cmyk_435_288_.jpg
Thanks!
Arrgh... they are NOT TROLLEYS (not complaining to you, just the concept in general)! They don't pick up electric power from an overhead wire, hence, they shouldn't be called trolleys; they're buses, regardless of whatever feeble attempt Chance made at making the bodies look like streetcars. They've been running in downtown Providence on the 91 and 92, a.k.a. the Gold Line and Green Line, respectively (even though all the buses are green), for a year or two, and I think they're also in Newport now; I've thus far resisted wasting film on them :).
I'm not saying they're without merit, because they certainly do what they're supposed to. They're more attractive to tourists and the general riding public than standard buses, so it gets ridership up and brings people into the CBD. It's just a frustration I have because they're ugly and misnomered :).
RIPTA91#2Mike
RIPTA92#3Mike
I agree. They are nice for touristy type things, but I don't think they belong in a transit atmosphere. We had one at the University of Maryland that was used on the Park and Ride route and would always get chartered out for special events. I refused to drive that monstrosity. The closest I came to it was when I had to help wash it.
Just quoting the ignorant media! Most of the people at the Post probably don't know the difference between a bus or trolley and out of that group, most probably don't care.
BTW: They start service on Monday the 26th.
Not too long ago, all the local routes out of Yukon were transferred to Castleton, with the exception of S55,56,61/91,79. Also, Orions were transferred to Castleton from Yukon so as to make more space for the MCI Express busses. Previously, the MCIs were parked at the Arthur Kill Turnaround due to lack of space. Now, the MCIs fit at Yukon, with the limited local bus routes there.
Since there will be the re-organization of routes and depots again, concerning express and split-depots, why isn't anything further being done for adding another depot? This third depot has been talked about for a long time. If they do go ahead with it, they could make Yukon exclusively express depot with all SI Express, as well as the X25 operating from there. Also, in the time, before making Yukon an all-Express, they could Rehab Castleton. The third depot can be a local one and take some of the load off Castleton. Edgewater is only for storage, but before a fire that destroyed part of it, it was operational.
Somethings should be done, since more people seem to be using the busses on SI now.
They could use another depot to store all of the Orions they are not using.
*Rimshot*
Seriously though, maybe an Edgewater rehab is in order. They could use the small fleet of buses there to operate express service, possibly on the South Shore of SI.
These are the routes that should be assigned to the depots in Staten Island:-it would make sense:
Edgewater:S42,S51,S60,S76,X18,X20.
Castleton:S40/S90,S46/S96,S48/S98,S52,S53,S54,S57,S62/S92,S76,X10,X11,X12,X13,X14,X16.
Yukon-S44/S94,S55/S56,S59,S61/S91,S74,S78,S79,X1-X9,X15,X17,X19,X21,X22,X31.
this could change if a depot opened closer to Yukon.
Just a thought.
Wasn't EW deemed unsafe after that fire and when those 6 WMATA Flxibles became real fishbowls when they did a gainer into New York Harbor.
Edgewater is only for storage now, not for operations. There is no actual depot building, but just busses parked in a fenced in area for storage.
A new depot would be useful.
If a North/West Shore Depot was opened, this may be useful:
Yukon: S44,55,56,61,79,X1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,15,17,19,21,22,31
Castleton: S40,42,53,54,57,60,62,66,67,X10,11,12,13,14,25
Third Depot: S46,48,51,52,59,74,76,78,X16,18,20
Note: Transfer of X25 Route from UP to CAS
If South/East Shore Depot:
Yukon: S44,51,54,61,76,79,X1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,15,25,31
Castleton: S40,42,46,48,52,53,57,60,62,66,67,X10,11,12,13,14,16,18
Third Depot: S55,56,59,74,78,X17,19,21,22
Note: Transfer of X25 Route from UP to YUK
ALL S 9X Routes would be operated from the respective depot of the local route.
a third depot is planned for the charleston area on arthur kill road. the land has been ceded to nyct nys assembly included funding for the depot in this years budget which is still in limbo pending agreement between senate assembly and governor. this will be mainly for parking and fueling buses while repairs are done at yukon.
Edgewater is not, and never can be again, a depot. Not unless you'd like to see an Orion do its best impression of a fishbowl.
-Hank
>>"unless you'd like to see an Orion do its best impression of a fishbowl."
Many here will say an Orion can **never** imitate a fishbowl :-)
>>"unless you'd like to see an Orion do its best impression of a fishbowl."
Many here will say an Orion can **never** imitate a fishbowl :-)
sorry about that....some weirdness courtesy of Netscape 6.
The MCIs still fill up three lanes on Richmond Hill Road (45 buses), and they still fill the AK turnaround. The best long-term solution is to build a third depot, currently slated for Charleston, an area very near the Outerbridge Crossing, and the beginning point for the eventually-to-start x21/x22.
However, there are politicians who are insisting the new depot have CNG fueling capabilities, which would require a new fleet of more expensive buses to REPLACE existing expensive buses. This had killed a previously agreed to funding scheme. I'll believe there's a third depot when I see the buses parked in it.
-Hank
buses have not been parked at arthur kill road since jan. 12, the last day of the fall pick. nyct is believed to make a third depot cng compatible for future bus purchases.
Anyone know when the artics begin running officially out of 126 St Depot - and on what routes besides the M15? Thank you in advance.
Aside from the M15, I had heard that the M31/57, M35, and M66 could possibly see Articulated service from the 126th.
Right now, 126th Street Depot is sitting on 4 Articulated, New Flyer D60HF Galaxy #5506-5509.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
You're right about every line except the M66. The M66 runs through Central Park on the 66th Street transverse. The 66th Street transverse has low clearances on it's overpasses. The RTS can squeeze through. The articulated won't because of the roof mounted air conditioning units. In order for an articulated to clear the overpasses on the 66th Street transverse it would have to run right down the center of the road which obviously is not feasible. The 79th Street and 86th Street transverses have higher clearances which allows articulateds to be operated on the M79 & M86.
are there any gillage buses running in new york city routes , here in utah thats all we got is those sorry gillage buses
LI Bus has some, and a number of months ago a driver in Calif. gave us a report of theirs.
Mr t__:^)
Also Suffolk Transit and Hart Bus have some Gillig Phatons of varying lengths.
Transport of Rockland put a batch of Gilligs into service two years ago. The Dutchess County LOOP also has some Gilligs in service. (And, contrary to popular belief, some people do consider Rockland County and Poughkeepsie part of Metro New York. )
nope,LI Bus DOESNT have them running. I saw them in Huntington(HART) and i think they are in Suffolk Transit, but not anywhere else. One question though, if the Gilligs are running in mint condition for Hertz at JFK Airport, then why didnt DOT buy a few of them for the private lines?
Very simple. The Gillig buses are NOT built to stand up to HEAVY transit service. That's why the MTA LI Bus Gilligs are almost totally gone. The ones Hertz has are NOT in heavy service, most of the time I'd bet they have less thanhalf a dozen passengers on them -- and Hertz usually has twice as many buses at a location than they really need.
There are only three major cities who have gone in for the Gillig buses as a major part of their fleets -- Minneapolis, Salt Lake City, and San Diego. Yeah, I know, Seattle bought a major bunch (one order, 360 buses) of them about four years ago but notice they haven't returned, they went to New Flyer for newer stuff. You won't see Gilligs in Boston MBTA, New York MTA, Philadelphia, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Miami, Dallas, etc. They just cannot stand up to the rigors of big city service.
,,,,and as a followup, I did mention San Diego -- but they, too, gave up on Gilligs. Their past four or five orders have been for New Flyer buses (high and low floor and articulated). They stopped buying Gilligs in 1994.
RE: Seattle - I believe the newer Seattle buses from New Flyer are actually D60LF coaches, not standard 40 ft buses. The New Flyers retired a large number of MAN artics - some of which have ended up in Chicago.
You left out the CAT in Las Vegas.
And the following TAs:
Virginia:
Valley Metro (Roanoke)
GLTC (Lynchburg)
GRTC (Richmond)
WMATA (D.C.)
HRT (nee PenTran) (Hampton Roads)
North Carolina:
Durham/Chapel Hill
Michigan:
GRATA (Grand Rapids)
Oregon:
Tri-Met (Portland)
California:
SCVTA
There are plenty more out there as well; too many to list.
-F.
Thanks for this list. While it is true that all of these transit systems do use Phantoms (and there are a great many), I think we were trying to come up with a list of gargantuan TA's in big cities that use lots and lots of Phantoms as their front line buses.
What are the operating characteristics of those Virginia TA's? I know that WMATA does indeed have 20 30-foot Phantoms, but that is just a tiny fraction of the fleet and those buses would NEVER find their way onto a heavy DC city route like the 30-line or the S2. Que yo sepa, the Phantoms are confined to Anacostia to do smaller neighborhood routes like the W6 and W8.
I suppose Tri-Met might make the original list, but again, they only have two batches of 40-foot Phantoms and these are hardly the bulk of the fleet. True that they are used interchangibly with Flxibles and New Flyers (95% sure of that), but again, Tri-Met's operation does not exactly rest on the reliability of Gillig buses.
Cool list, though. Post more details on those smaller TA's if you can.
Thanks.
Sure thing. Here goes the first one:
Valley Metro: www.valleymetro.com
Valley Metro serves the cities and towns of Roanoke, Salem, and Vinton and also serves small portions of Roanoke County; it began in 1975 as a reorganization of Roanoke City Lines. Its initial leftover equipment consisted of 1950s GM 3714 "Old Looks" and 1969 GM 3301s (30' Fishbowls). The Old Looks were replaced in 1976 by the arrival of Valley Metro's first new bus order, 22 Flxible New Look 35-footers. These were also the first air-conditioned transit coaches in the Roanoke area. In 1979, the 3301s were replaced with 13 35' Grumman Flxible 870s. These featured a kneeling feature (which was later turned off due to malfunction) and were the most modern-looking coaches ever seen in the Roanoke Valley. In 1988, five 25' Skillcraft buses arrived for use in lower ridership areas, much to the chagrin of the drivers, who disliked these buses. Also in 1988, five new Gillig Phantom coaches arrived to slowly replace the New Looks, powered by Detroit Diesel 6v92-T engines. Another order of 10 followed in 1991, which were the first Roanoke buses to feature Alcoa wheels, ADA-compliant wheelchair lifts, and dot matrix destination signs. The last of the Flx New Looks and the entire fleet of Grumman 870s were replaced in 1994 with 18 more Gilligs, this time with Detroit Diesel Series 50 engines, the first year that 4-cycle engines were mandated in transit buses. Valley Metro has had several route changes over the years to suit local ridership, including the new Downtown Express. Later this year, 12 more new buses are planned to hit the streets, this time with vandal-proof seats and Cummins engines. Rumor has it that two Thomas SLF200s have been ordered for Downtown Express; these will be the TA's first low-floor buses.
I'm not sure if this is the info you are looking for, but hope you find this enriching!
-F.
Sure thing. Here goes the first one:
Valley Metro: www.valleymetro.com
Valley Metro serves the cities and towns of Roanoke, Salem, and Vinton and also serves small portions of Roanoke County; it began in 1975 as a reorganization of Roanoke City Lines. Its initial leftover equipment consisted of 1950s GM 3714 "Old Looks" and 1969 GM 3301s (30' Fishbowls). The Old Looks were replaced in 1976 by the arrival of Valley Metro's first new bus order, 22 Flxible New Look 35-footers. These were also the first air-conditioned transit coaches in the Roanoke area. In 1979, the 3301s were replaced with 13 35' Grumman Flxible 870s. These featured a kneeling feature (which was later turned off due to malfunction) and were the most modern-looking coaches ever seen in the Roanoke Valley. In 1988, five 25' Skillcraft buses arrived for use in lower ridership areas, much to the chagrin of the drivers, who disliked these buses. Also in 1988, five new Gillig Phantom coaches arrived to slowly replace the New Looks, powered by Detroit Diesel 6v92-T engines. Another order of 10 followed in 1991, which were the first Roanoke buses to feature Alcoa wheels, ADA-compliant wheelchair lifts, and dot matrix destination signs. The last of the Flx New Looks and the entire fleet of Grumman 870s were replaced in 1994 with 18 more Gilligs, this time with Detroit Diesel Series 50 engines, the first year that 4-cycle engines were mandated in transit buses. Valley Metro has had several route changes over the years to suit local ridership, including the new Downtown Express. Later this year, 12 more new buses are planned to hit the streets to replace the 1988 models, this time with vandal-proof seats and Cummins engines. Rumor has it that two Thomas SLF200s have been ordered for Downtown Express; these will be the TA's first low-floor buses.
I'm not sure if this is the info you are looking for, but hope you find this enriching!
-F.
I'll add a few from the Northeast:
PENNSYLVANIA:
READING/Berks Area Reading TA (1991 - Phantoms)
HARRISBURG/Capital Area Transit (1988, 1990, 1995 - all Phantoms)
WILKES-BARRE/Luzerne County TA (1998 - Phantoms; 1999 - low floor)
SCRANTON/County of Lackawanna Transit System (1988 - Phantoms, though they may have been replaced by newer Phantoms last year)
ALTOONA/Amtran (2000 - low floor)
JOHNSTOWN/Cambria County TA (2000 - low floor)
GREENSBURG/Westmoreland Transit (late 1990's - Phantoms)
NEW CASTLE/New Castle Area TA (2000 - low floor)
CHARLEROI/Mid Mon Valley TA (1990's - Phantoms)
DELAWARE:
WILMINGTON/DART First State (1995, 1996 - Phantoms; 2000 - low floors; however their next major bus purchase is from NABI)
MARYLAND:
MONTGOMERY COUNTY/Ride-On (mid 1990's, two batches - they seem to split between Gillig and Orion)
VIRGINIA:
ALEXANDRIA/DASH (1994 and 1998)
MASSACHUSETTS:
LOWELL/LRTA (1994)
HAVERHILL/Merrimack Valley RTA (1996, and 1999 - Phantoms)
NEW YORK STATE:
ROCKLAND/Transport of Rockland (1999)
NASSAU/MTA LI Bus (1988 - recently retired)
SUFFOLK/Suffolk Transit
POUGHKEEPSIE/Dutchess Loop
NEW HAMPSHIRE:
NASHUA/Citybus (Phantoms are due on the property to replace the 1987 Orion I buses, if they're not there already; 2 ex-Richmond buses)
MANCHESTER/Manchester TA (1 1998 Phantom)
I haven't seen the Phantoms run by 88 Transit (Mid Mon Valley Transit Authority) out of Charleroi PA for a couple years. Unless they are in some sort of local service I'm unaware of, they should be gone as they were very much disliked and had various problems when used in service on the Pittsburgh-Charleroi run.
The LRTA only has (13) 1994 Gillig Phantoms, 30 footers. The majority of the LRTA's fleet consists of the (22) 1992 35 foot Flxible Metro C's.
Gilligs now comprise the majority of the Merrimack Valley RTA fleet, there are 14 1996 Phantoms, and 12 1999 Phantoms, all 35 footers. The remainder of their fleet consist of (16) 1987 GMC RTS, (6) 1991 Orion 1's and (6) 2000 Chance Trolleys.
I don't believe the new Nashua NH Citybus Gilligs have arrived yet, at least as of the last time I was up there about 3 weeks ago.
Mark Watson
Did PVTA ever ran the Gillig's? I was not shure if PVTA ever ran them.
Gillig Phantom#4002
Not that I'm aware of. PVTA has - for the most part - been an RTS stronghold. Ditto with Worcester RTA, Brockton, and Fall River.
Oh, and one more; Northern Illinois University (Huskie Line). I believe those are 1991s. Several California TAs run them as well.
-F.
I have a fairly complete list from 1981 to 1992, then there's a lot of gaps.....serials, fleet numbers, models, etc.
My source at Gillig no longer works there, so the information has been spotty since 1992 when he left there.
Oh yes, and Akron Metro has a new fleet of them (97s or 98s, I think?)
Much to my chagrin, they replaced the beautiful Flx Metros that I longed to ride on my way to Grand Rapids over one summer. :( Oh well. I hope OMOT picks up at least one Metro for their fleet one day.
-F.
Actually, Akron also has some of the oldest Gillig Phantoms around -- they took delivery of their first bunch in 1983. (Their deliveries. were in 1983, 1985, 1990, 1992, and 1998 according to my lists.)
You're kidding! I thought everything before 98 was exclusively Flxible for years. Wow...83. So they were among the first TAs to receive Gillig Phantoms. Wonder if the first ones are still chugging around there?
-F.
I'm pretty sure they are gone as a contact said they haven't seen the older Gilligs in Akron for a quite a while in service. Last I saw one of the older ones in the mid 90's, they looked bad (engine smoking, bus leaning and body panels flapping in the breeze).
Sounds like the first-year bugs were still prevalent in these. I assume you won't be getting any for OMOT any time soon. Hey, maybe the later ones are better built.
-F.
One more that can be added to the list as well;The City of Long Beach(NY) runs Gillags(35 footers)as well
CAT in Las Vegas inherited 13 of them from Las Vegas Transit.
And you RARELY see them in service at CAT nowadays; they are considered tobe backup equipment. They had major engine overheating problems when running the slow routes in/around town, so for the most part, they got assigned to the Boulder Highway route which runs at higher speeds and does a lot less idling time sitting at traffic lights.
One (or more) are already at a used bus dealership in southern California -- along with all of CAT's Grumman/Flxible Metro's.
Hmm...I wonder what the CAT Flxes are going for....
-F.
It's sad that some of them barely lived passed their 12 year mandate. I looked at the production list for the Flxible Metros and CAT ordered some as late as 1987 or 1989. MARTA in Atlanta ordered a bunch of Flxibles around that same time as well. I don't know if they're still there though. Flxibles really have it tough now.
That sucks. I'd like to see these rehabbed and kept alive for much longer. They just look WAY too modern to be put out to pasture so soon. WMATA has done so for some of their Metros; hopefully that means they will still have them around for a while.
These buses still have a lot of life left in them; besides, Universal Coach still makes parts for them, so there's no excuse there. I belong to a museum which was still able to find a starter for our 1976 Flxible New Look without problems, despite the fact that these coaches are no longer made.
I think TAs just need to stop feeling a need to jump on a bandwagon. That's what I felt ours did when they replaced 7 good, solid-running Flx New Looks after only 12 years just to try a "new look" for their buses, which I felt took away from their personality and character. Very sad.
-F.
Caught a CAT Flxible Metro back in 96.Pretty nice busgreat interior and a nice ride;good speed on the Strip.
I'd LOVE to ride one! Bet they were nice in Vegas.
-F.
For almost all their lives, under Las Vegas Transit (Gray Line of Southern Nevada subsidiary) they ran everything BUT the Strip.
They were bought by the City of Las Vegas/County of Clark -- with the stipulation that they be used on NON-Strip routes. The Strip was the home of all the GM fishbowls which were doing a pretty good job on the Strip until mid-1993. The only time the Metro's would be seen on the Strip was in an emergency (per their operation agreement between the RTC and GLOSN).
Once CAT (the operating name of the Clark County Regional Transportation Commission) took everything over, as well as the twelve Metro's, thirteen Gilligs, and four NFI D60's, the stuff was able to run on any route anywhere.
So far, the 1986 Flx's are still running strong for WMATA. Most of them have been at least rehabbed if not rehabbed and painted with the new paint scheme. The way that they keep their buses around, the first 1986 Flx wont be retired until at least 2006 with the Metro E's hanging around until mid 2010's. Plenty of time! Thankfully, the 8700-8975 Flx's kept their wrap around tail lights. THe LED's don't look right on the other ones. I'm all for longer lasting equipment, but they just hit me the wrong way.
The 1986 Metros shouldn't have been rehabbed yet. They should just be getting a rehab now so they could last until 2011 or longer. 2006 is still awhile though.
I can see that. However, you never know; they just may last through 2011 if not longer. Yeah, 2006 does not seem far away of you look into the grand scheme of things. I remember looking at where I'd be in 1996 back in 1991; ten years later, I look back at 96 and say, "Man, I was such a washup. I could have been a LOT farther along in life at that point". OK, I'm rambling. Must shut up now. Check back with me in 2006....LOL. :)
-F.
A lot of the 1986's have been rehabbed. They are also rehabbing a lot of the 1993 and 1994 Metro D's and E's, at least they are repainting them, they may not be doing a full overhaul that they are doing on the mid 80's buses. It could be that the 1986 ones are mainly getting repainted, too and not overhauled.
When I turned 30 last month I did the whole 10 years ago, 10 years forward and decided I didn't want to think about that anymore!!
I must say hats off to WMATA. With all the other TAs retiring buses after only 12 years or so and whining about losing money, WMATA is bound to be financially strong with their cost-saving rebuilds of strong-running equipment. I'm glad to hear that their Flxible Metros will be around for 20 plus years of service; if only more TAs out there would follow suit.
And yes, I have to agree with the retaining of the wraparounds; they look better on the early models and the LEDs just don't look right on them. Newer ones, perhaps, but not the 1980s models.
-F.
CAT didn't order anything in 1987 or 1989. CAT didn't even exist until 1992.
The ONE AND ONLY order of Grumman/Flxible Metro's ever delivered to Las Vegas were 4601-4612 in August, 1982 (serials CD094476-94487).
They were bought by the City of Las Vegas/County of Clark under the auspices of the Regional Transportation Commission. They were painted for, and operated by, Las Vegas Transit -- which was a subsidiary of Gray Line of Southern Nevada.
They were transferred to CAT in late 1992 -- but were not in service until they were given a light rehab as well as CAT paint, because the then-new CAT and LVT/GLOSN were engaged in a bitter legal battle over operation of certain routes, particularly the Strip route along Las Vegas Boulevard.
The Las Vegas 4600's did NOT have wheelchair lifts when built. CAT also bought a small handful of ex-Santa Clara County Transit District Grumman 870's, which had wheelchair lifts. Once newer orders of NFI D40LF's and NABI LF40's were delivered to CAT, the non-wheelchair lift buses (ex-LVT 4601-5612, CAT 200 series) were retired. That was about three years ago, but they just recently showed up at the used bus lot in southern California.
I hate to say it, but they will probably sit there forever. NOTHING much has beenmoving off that huge lot of 600 or so buses -- they have LOADS of RTS04's from SCRTD, RTS03's from Westchester Bee Line, MAN artics from Minneapolis, more 870's from Dallas and Orlando and Jefferson Parish (LA). Nothing seems to ever move. The dealer does move a handful of stuff every now and then to Tijuana and Mexicali, but since those two cities have been buying RTS's and older 870's, they haven't been cycling their fleet as often. Either the buses are more rugged, or they've learned how to keept hem running better (the high cost of fixing them would make them do that alone!)
You left out the CAT in Las Vegas
I would not really count Las Vegas as 'heavy urban service.' The 13 Phantoms of CAT are almost always relegated to the lighter routes in the system. Actually, I am not terribly familiar with the CAT system, but the only really heavy routes they have are the 300-series Strip routes and 109 Maryland and perhaps 113 L V Blvd North.
I am not exactly a Gillig fan myself, but for the sake of being complete, I will add to Steve's list that Cincinnati, Oakland and St Louis also extensively employ Phantoms in heavy urban service. Although I will note that AC Transit in Oakland bought its last (and final) Gillig bus in 1993; they have since switched to NABI for rigid buses. And they are Gillig's hometown transit system!
I will admit that Gillig has improved their product of late. The Advantage low floor is a decent bus construction-wise, but it is wrought with design flaws which would make it flop miserably in urban service. The workmanship of the Phantom has improved as well, but the Phantom's reputation as a second-string, second-rate bus makes the Gillig name leave a bad taste in a lot of mouths.
[...Seattle bought a major bunch (one order, 360 buses) of them about four years ago but notice they haven't returned, they went to New Flyer for newer stuff.]
Actually, I thought that the Gilligs and New Flyers were similtaneous purchases. This is info I found at Keegan Hartman's Seattle bus pages (http://www.members.tripod.com/~KHartman/metro_roster.htm):
1998-1999 New Flyer D60HF: 2300-2571
1997 Gillig 35102TBM11: 3185-3199
1996-1999 Gillig 40102TBM11: 3200-3594
Unless King County Metro recently placed another bus order, I believe these are the most recent transit bus orders in Seattle.
Gillage? Try Gillig. Yep, JUNK!!!
I don't see why everyone trashes Gilligs. Our TA here in Roanoke has run these since 1988 and they've done just fine; in fact, the first fleet is just now getting ready to be retired, with plenty of miles left in them. While I would prefer the Flxibles that they replaced any day, they have given our city solid, dependable service.
-F.
But they aren't carrying the heavy loads that many transit agencies carry. Roanoke isn't exactly a huge metropolitan area.
Gillig buses simply cannot stand up to the rigors of heavy transit operations. If they could, you'd see them in NYCTA colors, Chicago CTA, etc. etc. etc.
True. During the 4th of July every year, our Gilligs are packed to the walls, and you can hear them straining all the way up the hill going up Brandon Ave. (a slight incline) towards Towers Mall to drop off the masses, even the 6v92-T models.
Perhaps you may have a point; while they do well for the light service here, for some reason, nearby Blacksburg Transit (who carries heavy Virginia Tech campus service) declined an offer to buy our 1988 Gillig Phantoms as trippers when they are retired. BTW, their fleet consists of Flx Metros, RTSes, and their latest order was New Flyers, as opposed to the cheaper bid, the Gilligs.
-F.
In the NYC area, you used to see a bunch of Gillig Phantoms on the routes to Nassau County for LI Bus. Every time I rode one of those things I always likened it to riding in a shoe box with windows. They have since been augmented by CNG Orions V's, another bus that is a box with windows.
Thankfully the Gillig Geldings are not in much use anymore at LI Bus.
Various Bus Schedule Changes to M14,M16-34,M66,M104
,Bx4,Bx8 ,10,12,13,14,21,27,Bx28,,Bx30,31,36,40,42
B1,4,6,8,12,15,24,25,26,35,36,38,44,46,52,61,63,69,,,B70,71,78
Q4,5,13,14,,15,26,27,32,59,83,84,85,88
x1 to 9 ,10-11,12,13,14,15,16,17-19,,18 ,20,,31
---------------------------------------------------
Proposed Service Revisions Manhattan Bridge Switch
Effective Early July 2001 and extend until 2004
Switching of Subway Service from the North Side of the Bridge to the South Side of Bridge.
SWERVICE PLANS
A temporary subway Shuttle service between 21 street-Queensbridge and Broadway -Lafeyette will be provided to serve the 63 st Line until the 63 st Tunnel Connector opens for full service later in 2001..This is a 6th Av service ,in addition to the F Route--remaining unchanged.
Service in Brooklyn (including express services) remains the same ,,except for re labeling of the Routes B and D
The Grand St Stration ,which can no longer be reached by trains traveling to and from Brooklyn via the Bridge,will be served by a special subway shuttle between the Grand St Station and Broadway Lafeyette St Station ,where customers can transfer to 6th Av Services
Route W will operate on the express tracks in Manhattan and make express stops on the Broadway Lines between Canal St and Times Sq ---42 street..It will switch to the local tracks at Times Sq=42 st.stopping at 49 st --7 av,and continuing to Ditmars Blvd in Astoria .Queens..To Facilitate the reliable operation of the the Ditmars Terminal ,in the weekdays mornings..the Manhattan Bound W will provide express service on the Astoria Line in Queens ,between Astoria Blvd and Queensboro Plaza.Inthe Afternooons ,,the Queens Bound W will operate express bet Queensboro Plaza and Astoria Blvd.
Routes B and D will no longer be able to operate as a through service between Brookyn and the Bronx.Both routes will be split into 2 route segments that overlap at the 34 st Herald Square
Routes B and D between Bronx and Manhattan will continue to operate along the Grand Concourse in the Bronx and Central Park West in Manhattan .but will terminate at 34 st Herald Square,where transfers are available to Broadway and 6 Av Services
Routes B and D between Brooklyn and Manhattan will no longer be able to access the 6th Av corridor from Brooklyn.
These services will now cross the South Side of the Manhattan Bridge and continue via the Broadway Line.express tracks local track currently used by the routes N and R,with Route D terminating at 57 st-7 Av,and route B terminating in Astoria Queens at Ditmars Blvd.
To reduce confusion at 34 st Herald Square,the Brooklyn B will be redesignated W and the Brooklyn D Service will be combined with the weekday Q Express service,so that all Brighton Line service will be designated Q
.As with the 6 and 7 service...the weekday Q Express in Brooklyn will be indicated with a DIAMOND.the Q Local service with be designated with a CIRCLE...The Brighton Express Q and Brighton Local Q operate identically between Prospect park in Brooklyn and 57 --7 Av in Manhattan..They only differ in Brooklyn South of Prospect Park ,with each operating on a seperate Track .
All route Q (Q -circle and Q Diamond,) will run on Epxress Tracks in Manhattan ,making express stops between Canal st and 57 st-7 ,,will it willterminate.
Alternative
Route M service to and from Brooklyn via the Montague Street Tunnel middays .---not recommended -low ridership and too costly
this idea would be better:
Q-57th St to Brighton beach-express 5a-9a,3p-8p weekdays,
Q-57th St To coney Island-Local-10p-5a weekdays,middays. and weekends.
M-Coney Island to Metropolitan ave-Wkdy rush hours only-5a-9a,3p-8p
M-Chambers to to Metropolitan av-middays.
M-Myrtle Av to Metropolitan Av-nights and weekends.
I know this would be considered subtalk,but would M run to Stillwell via the West End or would you suggest its original route via the Brighton Line.Also the M hardly goes to Chambers thanks to the never ending distuction of the tracks over the Williamsburg Bridge(doesn't it seem that once new track is laid,that another track crew comes along and rips it up again).
Since there seems to be the problem with expresses in Queens, why would the MTA be selling express RTS's? If you look on the official MTA webcite (http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us) and under NYCT Surplus Sales, there are approximately 46 busses for Sale, mostly express. They say they are in working condition. Why sell when it seems there is a need for these busses?
Is it the OLDER GM RTS's they are selling?
There are a total of 46 RTS buses up for sale in this offering.
37 are soft seat suburban/express buses, the remaining 9 are hard seat transit buses.
41 of these buses were built in 1985, 1 was built in 1984, and 4 were built in 1982.
They are not identified by fleet number, however; nor do they differentiate what year the soft/hard seat buses are.
Professor Putters METROCARD MANIA!! Fun With Used MetroCards!
This beautiful paperback book includes over 30 different projects using NYC MetroCards. Games, magic tricks, toys. Great for kids from 8 to adult. To order send $5 each + $3.00 (s&h) (outside USA $6.00 s&h) in US money, check or money order made out to: Michael Makman. Send order to: Professor Putter PO Box 755, Planet Station New York , NY 10024-0539
METROCARD & CARDHOLDERS COLLECTORS CATALOG
This is an 8.5 inch x 11inch 20 page booklet printed by the MTA. They later decided not to distribute it. It contains 20 glossy, color pages of actual size photos of 1997-99 commemorative MetroCards & cardholders. Full color photos of the Subway Series 97, Then and Now, Emigrant, JVC Jazz, Healthy City, Ferry Boat, Yankees 98, Subway Cool, Millennial Journeys, Mets International Week plus 63 Cardholders including the complete Great Subway series. All photos are actual size & full color! A beautiful collectors MUST HAVE. The supply is limited. When they are gone, they are gone.
Send $10.00 ea. plus $2. P & H in check or Money Order
made out to: Mike Makman, To: Prof. Putter, Po Box 755
Planet Station, NYC NY 10024
Will you stop spamming this group? Enough already.
He Dose this on Subtalk to.
Killfile. We don't need Dave shutting down the board.
He should be banned. He contributes *nothing* to this forum, yet solicits articles the TA probably distributed free of charge for his own personal gain.
I'm going to report his spamming to his ISP, and let the legal department know what he's doing.
Keep this forum spam-free.
http://www.aol.com/info/feedback.html
By the way, I have come across new bookmarks if anyonw wants them. They are a smaller version of the larger Artic busmark. I believe this is a Low Floor design. If anyone would like one (or a few), email me with your snail mail address, and I will send you as many as you need :-)
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I have a few questions about being a NYC Bus Operator. Some may seem dumb, but just cat with me.
What is the minimum age for becoming a B.O. in NYC?
Would a college graduate be a fool for becoming a BO? Or would it be a smart move?
What are the chances of going from bus operator to something in management later on?
If you don't switch to management, what are the higher "ranks" after bus operator?
What positions with the TA require Civil Engineering as a major?
Thanks.
21 years old
Driving a bus is not for everyone. Speak to the people on routes near you. Rarely will you find one with more than a few years on the job who doesnt have some complaints. But most will tell you they like their job.
The life of a bus operator is really rewarding. Here are some examples:
1) You get to meet interesting people.
2) Your office has a window.
3) You never get annoying phone calls from sales people.
4) You get to travel all the time (unfortunately no frequent mileage awards program yet)
5) You will experience a rainbow of diverse culture just about every hour.
6) Live entertainment.
You could advance in the ranks to dispatcher and above.
If you have Civil Engineering as an education you could apply to Stations, Plant and Equipment, Facilities, or many other areas that involve the trades.
good luck
murf..............
Don't come to the TA! You can do better than the TA with the degree.I left St.Francis College's excellent business program nearly ten yrs ago for the TA. I've regretted it ever since.
as a 21 year nyct bus operator with a ba in psych it is not that bad a job although your brain does get dusty here. we had a guy here with a masters in special ed who recently retired. as i am and he was a tier one member of the nycers we can retire on good pensions. you can make more money than in private industry.
Saw D4000 (D4001???) #8402 running on the #33 line around 4:00 yesterday afternoon.
They're spreading!
GOOD NEWS: There will be no transit strike in Philadelphia this year. Pending ratification by the TWU 234 rank and file, and SEPTA Board approval next month, a new three year contract will be in effect until March 15, 2004.
BAD NEWS: SEPTA fares will increase on or around July 1. Although public hearings will be scheduled within the next month or so, it's almost a forgone conclusion that SEPTA fares will rise. Expect the base fare to jump to $1.75, the cost of tokens to increase to $1.25 or even $1.50, the zone and transfer charge to increase from 40 to 50 cents, and the Regional Rail base fare to jump beween 25 and 50 cents. These rates have not been confirmed, but it's highly probable that's what the fares will be.
do any know what is the top speed of any septa bus
Neoplan AN440 w. DD6V92TA and Allison 5-Speed (8000-Series): 85mph (same for AN435 1300-Series)
Neoplan AN440 w. DD6V92TA and ZF 5-Speed (3000-Series): 80mph
Neoplan AN460 Articulated w. DD Series 60 and Allison World B500: 80mph
Ikarus (NABI) w. DD Series 50 and Allison World B500: 80mph
GMC RTSII Series 3 either w. DD6V71N or DD6V92TA (not sure of engine, see previous post) and Allison V731: 78mph
The stats for the New Flyer and ElDorado fleets are not out yet.
Of course with governors and such we will never see such extravagant speeds. But it's nice to know what they can do.
Everybus in the Houston fleet has speedometers with up to 85mph on them. A driver told me that buses can go faster than that though, about 110mph. He also said that the Crown Articulated buses could do 80 easy. I never rode any of those though.
I'm pretty much resigned to RTS buses that can do 52mph on solid ground, 45mph on inclines. Occasionally you'll get one that can do 70mph. But that's rare. Anything other than an RTS can do 65mph. The Flyers are slacking though, they slow down on inclines like the RTS. Not a good sign.
Really? You'd think that an RTS could go faster than that. We have a 1976 Flxible New Look with an 8v71 and Allison road transmission that can go at least 70 MPH in our museum fleet. It's neat to ride this bus on the expressway; it just cruises smoothly along!
Fred Donaher
Curator
Commonwealth Coach and Trolley Museum
The RTS can go abit faster than that. They've been goverend down due to old age. They can get very loud when they hit 50. The whole bus shakes.
The Flx Metros at the University of Maryland, numbered 4291-4791 and 6791-6891, all with Cummins engines, had governors that limited them to 66 mph. The Detroit Diesel ones would go whatever you could get it to, but they were so slow I never would take one on the highway. I had to drive one from College Park to Bel Air, MD, about 50 miles or so and it wouldn't go faster than 55 mph and vowed never to take one out on I-95 again. They were supposed to get new Flxs in 1996, but when Flxible went under they ended up with Thomas. : (
>>>The Flx Metros at the University of Maryland, numbered 4291-4791 and 6791-6891,<<<
They had 602 Flx. Metros? Wow, I'd love to go to that college. :-)
septa neoplan an440 8600-8800 with a ddc92 60mph govern
nabi 416.08ta ddc s50 model with a allison b-400r can do 55mph
in 30 seconds.on a hill 29mph
new articular bus can do 65mph easly
new flyer,eldorado can do 65mph(govern)
Oh, sorry, the way they numbered it there was 4291, 4391, 4491, 4591, 4691, 4791, 6791 and 6891, plus, they had other Metros numbered 30-41. Sorry about the confusion!
Crap. The Flxes would have been FAR superior to the Thomases they had to settle for. A lot of people felt the burn in 1996 when Flxible closed shop; I'll bet those new Metros would have run strong for many years to come had they not been stillborn due to their untimely economic demise.
-F.
i don't like govern speed.
I did forget about them being governed down, but without that feature (?), that would be their top speeds.
I'm glad I'm not driving the N20 or N21 tonight, man it is nasty out there, roaring winds blinding rain. Lots of trees down, power out, traffic signals out, especially on the north shore of Nassau.
They really need to cut alot these trees down, they keep coming down in these kind of storms. You don't get as many problems in central and southern Nassau because they trim the trees, no crazy preservationist residents.
Also since the drainage is poor here, I'm also getting alot reports over the scanner of flooded roads.
My power has stayed on, for now. (fingers crossed)
Today may have been a Jamaica Depot first. 9278 was operating on the Q42 all day, followed by 9262, all day also. This is a sign that Jamaica may have all the express runs covered now by Nova buses. Also, I worked the Q5 this morning and every express bus I saw was a Nova, on both the X63 & X64. It looks like Jamaica is finally on par with the other depots in running up to date equipment on the express lines. 3 cheers for NYCT!
BIG AL
For the first time, you all have one-upped QV. PA1767 was on the X68 I hear. That's good news to me, but I know how some of you don't particularly like stuff like that happening. Well, looks like 1740 will not only be replaced in express but local service as well. I hope she gets to make one last trip into Manhattan, she deserves it.
1740 will get one last trip into Manhattan aw right! Behind the tow truck going crosstown on its' way to Nimco! Couldn't resist! Say good bye! It's 2001 and that bus is from 1982! Good riddance!
Now if the TA can get rid of its 1981 RTS-04's(2270 & the Remans)that will bring down the average age of the fleet considerably.
Remans aren't considered to be 20. That's why people called 1740 the oldest bus in the fleet. That honor now belongs to 2270. Besides, the remans have another 2-3 years. Maybe longer if the TA doesn't meet the 2003 deadline it set for getting rid of the two-cycle engines.
Not to make things bad, but I do not believe Express busses should be running on local routes.
When an express bus is used on a local route, it is more likely to suffer more costly vandalism than a local. The padded seats are an easy target for vandals and have to be replaced. The hard seaters just get scratched and life goes on.
Leave the excess Suburbans at the depot and get more locals, or run older express suburbans.
I tend to agree with you when it comes to the Nova Express buses. However the Q42 is a very light and short route. It is only about 12-15 minutes from end to end. Hardly any trouble with vandals. I believe transit would rather run the hard seaters on local routes but there have not been many new local buses coming into transit lately. Only new express buses.Thus no other locals are available to be transferred over to Queens, for the time being.
BIG AL
What do you think JAM will get when the Orion VIIs come in? You know they'll probably go to SI and Manhattan first. JAM will probably get the reman RTS and TMCs. The GM RTS would become nearly extinct, though not enough Orions are coming in to replace all 600 of them.
The Orion VIIs, from my knowledge, are slated for 2 depots: Mother Clara Hale and the new Coliseum depot. One will get Orion VII HEV and the other Orion VII CNG.
That would leave Mother Clara Hale's Orions to be placed somewhere.
And also, for a long time, SI did not receive any newer busses. SI received the 1200s,1400s,1600s,1700s,1800s,2200-2700s GMC RTSs to finish their lives as the other boroughs received the newer TMCs and Novas. The newest busses that SI received was the 95 Orions, then the 96 Nova Suburbans.
But, all of that SI shuffling of RTS buses was rendered moot once the MCI cruisers started to hit the scene. And, of course, they have a bunch of the 6xxx-series Orion V buses.
OK...new contest time...which of those 9200 Express Nova's gets vandalized first? It's a sad state of affairs when transit can't realize that express service is kind of sub par in south east Queens, yet can't seem to muster up enough hard seaters to "make service" on the local routes.
Queens gets shafted again.
You call getting a two year old Nova RTS Express bus on a local route shafted? It's better (in a relaitive sense, not to me) than getting a 19 year old RTS (1740).
Actually the Nova Expresses started in late 1996-early 1997 in SI out of Yukon. They are now 4-5 yrs old.
Shafted in the sense that the Express Routes in Queens could do with a bit more service. The X63 and X64 only recently received a run leaving Manhattan after 6 PM. The X68 has it's last run leaving Manhattan at 5:45. In all three cases, to reach these parts of the city from Manhattan via anything other than an express bus is a bit arduous.
The QM21 run by Jamaica Bus Lines services Rochdale Village, an equally as remote part of Queens as Cambria Heights (X63), Rosedale (X64) or Floral park (X68). The QM21 runs well into the evening, the last run out of Manhattan being somewhere around 10 PM. Yet, why is it that NYCT figures that service on it's SouthEast Queens routes stop at 6:15? It all adds up to getting "shafted".
As far as express buses on local routes go, you'll hear more complaints from passengers since those coaches are rather hard to move around in for the standee loads that they usually carry; so it really isn't much of a "treat".
I agree with you that there should be more runs operating at later hours on the express lines. I'm hearing that the buses on the X63 & X64 are quite packed and I don't think any additional service has been added for the new pick starting on April 15th.
However, I disagree with you that the people will be complaining about the Novas on the local lines. The Q42 does not even know what a standing crowd is. Only the Q17 gets packed but I am not aware of any Nova's running on that line yet. And believe me, you should see the faces on these people when they board an Express Nova on the Q42. I have a feeling they will not put in any complaints about those buses no matter how tight it get's. And speaking of Express Novas, check out my next post.....
BIG AL
Cool! I think this is the first time in many years that the TA actually has enough express buses. I remember for lots of years SI local buses made express runs. In fact those 1990 TMC RTS seemed to be regulars on express routes well into the 90's. I'd rather see extra than a shortage of equipment.
Wayne
I think that the RTS busses that are being removed from service should be remanufactured and put back into service. Not all, but at least 100. NYC should do 50 and send 50 to Midwest, like they did before and continue them in the 7000 and 7500 series respectively. At least 30 should be suburbans.
Then, the remaining 1993 Orions could be repowered. They are good busses, and have worked well, including the suburbans, when they were on SI. Granted, some of them were not as fast as the newer Orions, but they were still decent.
And on the point of 4800s Suburbans, they were OK for express routes, but not as powerful and fast as the Novas.
The TA should do 500 RTS buses every five years. That way that would keep a nice fleet of at least 1,000 of them around for the next 10-20 years. The Orions do sound decent, but NYC is still RTS country. It's obvious they are preferred over the Orions. With their Orion VII cousins arrving soon, things may start looking up for the 1993 Orions, or they could just end up sitting with PA1826 in Crosstown Storage. I still think Orions should be relaegated to Manhattan and parts of Manhattan. SI could be all Orion and MCI. The rest of the Orion fleet would go to Manhattan. But since there will be 1,000 Orions soon, there'd be too many for just those boroughs.
I'd MUCh rather see rehabbed RTSes in NYC than Orions. They just fit a lot more, much like rehabbed Checker Cabs and Chevy Caprice taxis would. They just look a lot more New York than Ford Crown Victorias. The RTS has always defined the New York bus for me.
-F.
The problems with REMANS are simply, they just don't hold up. No matter what "new" parts you build with, you're still building on an almost 20 year old frame. Not only that, but there is no conformity to the REMANS. In other words, "any-part'll-do" when they rebuild these buses. Some have "x" some "y" some "z" and so on. These buses may look decent, but they ride like garbage. They "crash" at even the slightest bump, never hold air in the bellows (which allow the bus to kneel and raise), and the steering is usually always "short" (meaning the turning radius is severly shortened because of "close-to-matching" parts).
While true enough, some of these REMANS are quite quick, they are, for the most part, a dangerous bus. Steering is excessively loose, brakes are longer than normal, and the suspension is quite fatigued.
I really don't think we need more REMANS. I think we need to treat our 8000 series RTS buses with kid gloves, and schedule semi-annual overhauls (including repowering) for every single one of them in the fleet. These RTS TMC buses are the best bus NYCTA ever received, and should be treated with and cared for accordingly.
federal clean air laws will prevent any further remanufacturing as nyct is now interested in clean air buses for its local fleet. pataki and reuter are together on this.
Why can't they Remanufacture them as CNGs?
You have to be careful with CNGs though; this is part of how Flxible got bent over towards the end. While TAs and everyone else fingered them for making bad buses, the actual fault was shoddy CNG fuel cells from their suppliers. So, if the RTSes are to go CNG, the suppliers for the rebuild should be selected VERY carefully, with quality over cost for sure.
-F.
You're lucky becuase that's exactly what's happening. They'll be 8000 series RTS around well into 2010 and beyond. You know they won't even start repowering the 1990 RTS until later this year or even next year.
Why even now? 1990 seems like just yesterday. And even then, EVERYONE became totally enviro-conscious, from TAs to people close to you. That year, I actually got thrown out of someone's car outside of town for (God forbid) ordering a McDonald's McDLT because it was in a styrofoam container. OOH...BIG SIN!
As Dennis Miller just said on the Saturday Night Live episode I am now watching (ironically, circa 1990), "all these Earth Day flyers are now over-copied and once distributed to the public, are now littering the streets". Looking back, these thoughts really put things into perspective.
-F.
Oh yes, and more insight from Dennis Miller in this 1990 episonde of SNL:
"People Magazine just went on newsstands this week with an in-depth article on Earth Day, distributing over 5 million copies and using up more than 35,000 trees."
Oh yes, and in the transit world, 2-cycle diesels, which were mainly harmless compared to other fossil fuel-powered vehicles, became outlawed in 1994, while meanwhile, gasoline-powered automobiles were given virtually NO environmental mandates of that severity and have yet to receive such.
Amazing how counter-productive our nation is to enviornmental conservation when you look back at the past decade. Makes you think.
-F.
I couldn't have described the Remans better myself. You're right about the 8000's deserving to be treated with kid gloves. (Although personally I've always felt the 1987-88 47-4800 series RTS's to be the best.)The couple of repowered 8400's we have at 126th Street are really nice buses to drive. (Even though they still are !@#$%* RTS's)
You wouldn't be recommending this if you had to drive these hideous remanufactured RTS's. In a word, THEY SUCK! They're noisy, rattle like crazy and ride like bricks. This program was a total waste of money. The money wasted on these sh*tboxes should have gone towards the purchase of new buses.
Just the MTA trying to recycle the old and hold off with the new!
CWalNYC
I have to agree with DHF60!
You wouldn't be recommending this if you had to drive these hideous remanufactured RTS's. In a word, THEY SUCK! They're noisy, rattle like crazy and ride like bricks. This program was a total waste of money. The money wasted on these sh*tboxes should have gone towards the purchase of new buses.
More comments from the peanut gallery. :-) Seriously though, if it cost anywhere from 50,000-100,000 per bus, yes it was a waste of money. If it was less than that it was a bargain. Besides, even at 100,000 per bus, it is 100,000 less expensive than purchasing a Gillig. Besides, it's obvious the TA rebuilt these for the short term since they weren't refitted with DD Series 50 powerplants.
Let me say I have ridden on the 93 Orions when they first came out (when 101 was 93001) and recently after repowers. There is a difference in the Orions. They are not as sluggish as they used to be, and seem to be on the level as the new 6000-6300s. Don't knock them, b/c they did good service then, but better now. Let the rest of the 93 Orions be repowered. Then make a judgement.
Most of the 93 Orion Expresses transferred to Queens have not undergone the RePowers, since they sat around in Yukon and Castleton from lack of service with the new MCIs. You can easily tell which ones have been done. The ones that have been done have the exhaust pipe out the top left rear of the bus, and the ones that have not been done do not have this pipe.
Orions with re-powers are out of service as well. The TA can't find a use for them. I think they don't want them on local routes, yet they don't want to displace the MCIs on the express runs.
Send them to Queens.
Send them to Brooklyn to Ulmer Park for the X25 Route. I don't think that route is very crowded.
Send them to Manhattan for the X90/92 Routes.
Better than storage.
(This is kinda long)
Send the Orion repowers to Quill for the x90/x92? I dunno, maybe that's good. But, maybe not.
I think I have an idea. Going on to another related topic, I gave a TA worker the idea of giving some of the new MCI's, or even lending some MCI's temporarily to Quill for those two lines, but he said that the problem is getting them form the depot all the way down or all the way up to the terminals just to get them back in the other direction. That is, he complained that taking an MCI from Quill, taking it all the way up to York/91, taking it down to WTC in the morning, and then lagging it all the way up from there to the depot is way too much for one driver. Uses up a lot of fuel, too.
Anyway, that's how he feels. I think they should try it for a while because they need larger buses. One day, I was at City Hall at 0900 and I saw an x90, #9282, passing by with about 20 people standing up, about 60 people total on that bus! That's ridiculous! With the MCI's only THREE will be standing up. Hmmmmmm...20 standees on a bus versus just three. The TA should try it for a while, then see if they complain. HA! LOL
Well, see ya for now!
LOL
Orions on the x90 and the x92. HA! Not bad but very funny to me. Let's see that happen.
LOL
CWalNYC
I can't see why MJQ couldn't handle Orions V's,they have no problems with the artrics.That or switch the X90/92 to MCH.
I couldn't agree with you more, J Nassau!
It's just the TA is not listening to us so much, right?
if they can handle artics, then why don't they want MCI's? Actually, I heard someone saying that they want to keep the depots with a maximun of two bus types (i.e., MV has RTS's and Orion VI's; JG has RTS's and C40LF's; KB and GH have RTS's and NF artics, y'know what I mean?). That may be their ONLY legitimate reason for not putting MCI's in Quill.
CWalNYC
how do they explain yukon. 2270 and 2660 a bunch of other rts crap and about 27 orions for the local yokels.
Yukon never disposed of the 4800s & 8200-8300s they had when Castleton did to Brooklyn. My thinking is that they kept them especially for the school runs. For a long time, it was rare to see an RTS running on a local route in peak time or at all as a result of the new Orions.
And to the point of keeping the depots 2 types of busses, I don't know what they did with Yukon. Yukon in the early 90s was all RTS. Then in 1993, they received the Orion Expresses, followed by 1996 # 631-680 (which were supposed to be Flxibles but they went out of business), the MCIs, and then the 1999 Orions. The RTS expresses were transferred out to other depots and storage when the MCIs came in. The other locals were replaced by the #631-680 and 1999 Orions. They kept those RTS (4800s,8200s,8300s), and transferred 631-680 to Queens. Some sense if a 2 type depot was the plan??? So right now, Yukon is a 3 type depot, where the RTSs they had are being used on more routes now since around 70 Orions were transferred to Castleton with the changing of the depots routes. But Yukon needed more busses, so they sent in some 4300s,4400s, and 4500s RTSs. Go Figure????
Castleton was better following the plan. The 4800s & 8300s they had went to Brooklyn when the new Orions came in. The older locals were retired. Castleton right now is a 2 type depot.
Well there are excess Orion Suburbans sitting around. They could take more than what they need and add additional busses as needed.
Or here's another idea - which may sound strange.
NYCTA has the ability to convert busses to suburbans (like 4191, etc).
Why not make some of the newer D60HFs suburbans and put them on the X90/92 routes, instead of sending Orions there or the MCIs. The MCIs I do not think are well-suited for Manhattan only express. Have you seen how tight a turn can be with them? The majority of them, out of SI and BKLYN run on straight routes, up 6th or Madison, with very little turns. I am not sure how exactly the X90/92 route goes, but I do not think it is useful for them to be used on that line. Besides, with the new X21/22 on SI, more MCIs will be needed.
you could also change the sets from soft to hard-and send them back to Staten Island, replacing the aging RTS buses.
One problem - the floors are raised where the seats are. They would have to rip apart the floor and reconstruct it. It would be too high if they just replaced them.
Now if only LIBUS would repower it's older Orion CNG's with the series 50. Trash those piece of crap Cummins engines!!!
Once again, we have completed another pick. The only differences I saw were added service on the Q-83 weekdays and on Saturday. I was told QV lost 3 extras. Of course, many runs were individually changed, but the weekday schedule appears the same as it is right now.
The new pick begins Sunday, April 15th, 2001. Adjust yourselves accordingly (ie: be on time until you get a "feel" for your new driver).
saw this bus on m23 yesterday. this may mean an end to artics on the m15 for now.
How so? They can test on multiple routes to see where artics should and should not run.
The M23 is run out of Quill depot, which means that 5506 must have been transferred there from 126th Street, from which the M15 operates.
Should have known that.
Artics #5500-#5509 originally delivery suppose to go to MJQ Depot but went to Kingsbridge Depot & now #5506-#5509 are in 126th Street Depot for training. Last sunday i saw Artic #5506 park on 2nd Avenue & 126th Street
Peace
David Justiniano
Soon to be NYCT-MTA Traffic Checker
they are now or soon will be at mjq.
Today I saw 5506 on the M86!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
I better look out. I going to ride the M79 this Weekend. I going to take some photo's of that bus if I see it.
New Flyer D60HF#5506
Short article on page 2 of this week's Northwest Current on proposals Metro has solicited for the redevelopment of its Western Division garage property, which sits on primo Friendship Heights land.
They seem to be leaning to a redeveloped garage _under_ an air-rights development -- a mix of retail and residential, the article intimated.
Apparently the site, located on the block bordered by Wisconsin Ave, Jenifer and Harrison Streets NW, also needs environmental cleanup, as a result of over a century of transit use. Its roots, by the way, date back to the turn of the century when Capital (nee DC) Transit constructed its Tenallytown car barn on the spot. The car barn was shuttered in 1958; trolley service in DC sputtered on until 1962.
Neighborhood residents are pushing for a stand-alone parking facility, possibly Metro-operated, to relieve the area's present parking crush -- a problem that, presumably, will only be exacerbated with on-the-drawing-board development of Friendship Blvd and under-construction office towers behind the Gap building.
Chris
Did they mention where the buses would go? Would they be redistibuted to Northern and Montgomery Divisions? Here in Arlington, there is talk of doing something to the bus garage in Ballston as well due to the same things that are plaguing Western: Prime real estate. The Western Division is out of place now, as it looks funny to see the garage surrounded by Neiman Marcus and Sax Fifth Ave.
Yes, I was quite suprised when I learned the location of Western Division.
Wayne
They're trying to keep the garage where it is, more or less -- just develop on top of it, which will probably result in a dank, sooty cave like the "transit center" at 2 Wisconsin Circle two blocks away.
They reportedly considered moving the garage elsewhere but felt that the additional costs and inconvenience associated with making buses terminating at Friendship Heights travel to another (presumably new) garage would be prohibitive.
C
That's good that they're going to try and keep the garage there. Its sort of an icon, even though its so out of place in that 5th Ave. type location its in.
That's right. Jamaica depot finally has 100% Nova Express buses. 6 more 9200's came in yesterday and already have been put into service.
They are, 9265, 9266, 9267, 9280, 9281 & 9285. 9281 was doing service all day today on the Q42 along with 9263. The remaining 4800s, aka:4873, 4875, 4879 & 4880 went "addios amigos", probably over to Flatbush also. Also, I walked through the Express lanes tonight and EVERY bus was a Nova! There was no sign of 3833, 3869, 3967 or 1740! I looked in the depot, but they were not there either. I did not check the local bus lanes so they could have been buried with the locals. This afternoon I only saw 1740 sitting by itself in the Express lanes while all the other buses were on the road, but as I said, this evening it was gone. I will be parking buses tomorrow, so I will get a better handle on where those 4 buses went. In the mean time, let's see if 9282-9284 will be arriving in also.
BIG AL
It looks like that QV now the home of the Queens Division museum fleet.
Oh yes...QV, home of such stellar keepsakes such as 1767 and 1852! Spotted this morning was 1852 doing local service at 188 & Hillside (didn't see what route).
FP is Brooklyn's answer to QV when it comes to junk. Case in point: getting rid of 4000-4100's and replacing them with 4600-4700's
Why weren't the 4800s sent over to QV to replace their 1700s?? Flatbush doesn't operate any express service. Where do they operate soft-seaters--on the B2 and B31?? Doesn't make too much sense.
By the way, 9282-9284 are in MJ Quill.
Mark
Saw 9267 and 9281 on X64 this morning. So Jamaica now has 9250-9269, 9278-9281, 9285, 9345-9349 for Express Service?! WOW- a lot of buses just for 2 lines. 3967 I bet will be transferred back to QV or even to FLA. 1740-SCRAP. 3833 and 3869-either scrap or QV since QV still have 3800s running. Advice to Jamaica-Do NOT run the 9200s on the Q17!!! You'll hear it just like CS drivers are hearing it with the Express 100s on their local lines-COMPLAINTS!
X64#9347Gary
Q46#3818Gary
Q17#9256Gary
Q26#118Gary
Too late Gary. The 9200s hit the Q17 today. Saw 9262 running on the Q17 this afternoon. And don't miss my next post on what happened to 1740, 3833, 3869 & 3967.
BIG AL
PS we have every Nova Express bus you listed in your post except 9280.
9200 series soft seaters are on the Q42.
62 yrs ago today, the Q44(Main St) started its run. I celebrated by riding 676 from Parkchester to Jamaica Av. I wanted to drop by everyone favorite depot(Jamaica) to see what was going on but did not get a chance to due to the weather. I also rode on other buses as well......
Bx4#5344Mike
Q44#676MikeLTD
Q24#9064Mike
Q30#4935Mike
Q54#9179Mike
Q56#4431Mike
Really it was yesterday, (Thursday) that I did all of this stuff...
Q60#610Mike
Q60#619Mike
Q66#366Mike
Thank God you didn't board 1145 on the Q60 last night around 650pm at Union Tpke going towards NYC. I didn't get to 47 Street until 740pm. Usually it takes 30-45 minutes to get there. This guy was going so slow that people (including myself) were yelling at him a few times to open the back door and to speed up. 1145 is former QSC 279-a very fast bus. This guy was abusing this bus by going so slow.
There was no traffic either-only near Queens Center. We must have stopped at every single traffic light. When I got off, 247 came to the rescue. A bad night on 1145! Today I had 5504-I knew the driver so I sat right behind him. A lady gets on every morning that I'm on this bus-empty or crowded and sits right on top of me. I was barking at her to sit somewhere else and not on top of me all the time. Not like they say Can I sit there? They just plop their a$$es right down without saying a word and that's what got me upset.
Q60#247Gary
Q60#5504Gary
the other day i saw the the septa's new flyer
bus.the bus look have three windows in the front and two windows.
the bus have a white trium aroud the windows.the engine was a ddc50
but it was quiet than the nabi buses.
http://patkylekenny.50megs.com/Front%20View%20on%20Broad%20St%2001.jpg
It looks to me like a D40LF. Is it a D40LF/C40LF or a D60LF like in UTA and Vancouver? SEPTA with 30-foots, now this? Huh!
CWalNYC
Nice Photo you have there. Do you have a Rear Photo of #5401 Too?
New Flyer D40LF#5401
I get a message telling my this site does not exist.
Trevor
http://www.geocities.com/patkylekenny/
i site dos not exast no more
Just an interesting observation being that I frequently take the M9 and I get an RTS-04 more than a RTS-06.
Due to health reasons the following buses are up for sale for SERIOUS offers only.
2363 TDH 4801 ex LAMTA
2397 TDH 4801 ex LAMTA
6500 TDH 4510 ex PE, ex LAMTA/SCRTD serial 501
all 3 of these buses run but need alot of work. They are complete just sat for many years.
3008 S8M 5303A ex SCRTD-no power pack
1910 1975 Flxible ex OCTD-no power pack
1728 1975 T6H 4523A ex Stockton, CA runs and drives, needs rear end
1322 1973 T6H 5308A ex NYBS possible broken liner.
PLEASE...... SERIOUS OFFERS ONLY!
This morning at Hoffman Dr and Woodhaven Blvd, I saw Jamaica bus 531. The front part of the bus had a Triboro Coach Corp logo on her. Then a sign on the front came down when the bus stopped for the light-which said Training Bus No Passengers. Then I noticed that it said in black lettering Triboro Coach Corp-Operator on the sides but still in Jamaica Bus Lines Colors. What is up with this bus? Does JBL 531 train drivers for TCC, GBL and JBL since they're all owned by the Coopers?
Q18#531Gary
Q111#531Gary
Q60#531Gary
Recently saw Orion 139 parked outside Yukon at the end of the MCI bus lanes on Richmond Hill Road. On the passenger side below the MTA sign, where the depot patch is, the patch had what appeared to be the Casey Stengel depot decal there, while on the upper left, there was the Yukon decal. Maybe the rest of them are going to Queens also?
its been there.yukon mechanics never bothered to put a new sticker over it. these buses are put to good use as dispatcher takes it from depot to forest hill road to assign bus parking in the am and pm.
Orion 138 is still here at Stengel - did the evening run on the Q15 last night - along with Orion 510.
flx7595
Just got home. Here is what I saw:
1. Ride-On 5540A was on the 23. This bus had been in service on the 92 (Bethesda 8) and still has the Bethesda 8 signs on the side.
2. What is up with WMATA 8593 (IIRC, that is the #). I think I saw the back of this bus in Western Garage but never saw its right side! The frames around the doors are white, not the traditional black (even after repainting). This bus also has a white where the unit number and manufacturer's plate on top is. Also, the bus had a side destination sign like those on the Metro-Bs in the 9000+ series.
3. Flxible Metro-D on one of the E routes. I couldn't see the route block since I was on board to tell what depot it was from but there are no Ds at Western normally.
4. Why does the L7 and L8 still have the oldest buses? The T2 got some Orions, why cant the L7/8?
Correction, 8953 is the bus in discussion in #2.
I was in DC back in 1997, and I agree, the L7 Connecticut Ave line had some vintage pre-Metro Flxible fishbowls (8500 series). They probably bring them to that division once the newer fleets come in. So that's probably why they have the older buses. (Back in '99, the 8700 Metro Bs were transferred all the way out to Fairfax.)
We have the same idea here in Boston. Once the newer buses go to the "city" garages, they transfer a lot of the buses to the ex-Eastern Mass garages. In fact, the oldest buses in the system (the 1984-85 RTSs) are at Fellsway, which is open Monday thru Friday.
I was hoping you really saw 8593, which would mean they kept one Flx New Look in thier vintage fleet. Oh well. I could have sworn one time I saw an 87xx Metro B with the same type of destination sigh as the 9300's, but I only saw it one time and it took me by suprise, so I'm not sure if I read the number wrong. It may have been 8765, but not for certain. I don't think I've ever seen a Metro D run on the E routes, which normally come out of Western. Maybe it was a Bladensburg or Northern bus put on in an emergency. One time on the C2 I had 8846 which came out of Bladensburg for one run due to needing the extra bus. It wasn't programmed for that route and just said "C2" and no destination.
It figures that the L runs would get the worst buses. Same happens to some of the Z routes, particularly the Z1 and Z7, I've noticed. You'd think since the T2 runs through Potomac, they'd want nicer buses going through there. Before the 4400's Orions were used for the SmartMover, I'd see them on the T2 once in awhile.
Those were the only nice buses on the T2 until the RTSs were sent away this year. The T2 often only got the RTSs with the occasional Metro-B making an appearance every so often. I once got a Metro-D on the T2 but that was at least 5 years ago.
Yesterday, I saw 4350 and 2131 on the T2.
As a of late a number of New Jersey Iboa's ahve started to recieve Flxible Metro B's. Does anyone know why Metro B's are being distributed to these carriers when they don't even have any use for these buses?
3187 is at Greenville, 3192 is at Bergen Avenue Bus, and thats all.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Wrong 3200 is also at LG.and Broadway also has a 31000 seires in there garage as well.
Also Broadway IBOA has exchanged some of their 1200s and 1500s Novas for the 2500's (30' versions).
1268 and 1534 are at Orange Garage.
Those two a recent addition in which I found out about yesterday after my response, I really didn't see it necessary to repeats.
The reasons these little IBOAs are receiving the METRO-B Suburbans is because DeCamp is receiving their new MCI D4000 Cruisers and have only retired two MCIs which are MC-9A #6716 and MC-9B #5318. They are not letting up on their existing MCI fleet just yet and with the MCIs coming in the are loosing space in their garages. So off goes the Flxibles and since their is still a number of out dated equipment on the IBOA rosters, NJT is sending the overflow Flxibles to them to cover "ass" so to speak until they are able to pan things out with the MCIs and get everything back to normal. If you notice all of the Flxibles going to these little IBOAs are ex DeCamp units. NJT's newest Novas aren't doing so hot either so that can also play in the equation.
This is not the only weird thing that is going on, somehow after loosing all of their Flxible METRO-Ds to Baby Novas, Community Coach has regained back one of their METRO-Ds and has been spotted on the 751 Run 2 for the past 3-4 mornings. NJT and all its privates are about to see weird times in the fleet.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
NJT - Fairview Garage
Maybe PABCO Transit will lose some of the 2500s as I have seen them packed on the #10 and also I have now heard that Lakeland will be split among NJT and PABCO. Is this rumor true?
Yes this is as true as it gets, Lakelands last day is scheduled for July 1st from what I understand, at that point routes will be split between NJT and PABCO. So that means that PABCO is in for a set of new MCI D4000 Cruisers. I go to the acceptance lot every friday morning to shot pics, when the PABCO units arrive, I will let it be known. As of right now, a few NJT units are there, Rockland Units 8454-8515 are there and a scattered amount of DeCamp units are there as DeCamp has begun accceptance of thier buses.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
March 23, 2001. This is the first day that Jamaica Depot has absolutely no more old (GMC) express buses in service. Yesterday evening, 3/22, buses 1740, 3833, 3869 & 3967 were transferred over to their final destination, Gun Hill Depot to be scrapped and stripped down for parts. This leaves absolutely no more old softseat buses in service at Jamaica depot. A true landmark in the history of this badly mistreated depot. In the garage lies to 2 remaining old, out of service softseaters, 1755 & 3874. 1755 has been scrapped and is currently being stripped down of parts. 3874 has had her decals and logos removed on Wed, 3/21, and is said to be shipping out any day now. So this brings the saga of the Jamaica depot express buses to a close.
It has also been said, without confirmation, that some 9200s will also be transferred over to Q.V. depot to replace their last remaining old softseat buses still in service. So now we are down to 2 remaining 1982 coaches still in service in NYCT, both in Q.V. depot.
1767 & 1852. Which one will win the contest? It would be fair to say that both of them have probably won since they will both most likely be pulled from service at the same time like what happened in Jamaica depot. Any day now will be their last in service.
Bringing and end to the all mighty reign of the 1982 RTS in NYCT.
BIG AL
What about 2660 on SI? - She's 1982. AND 2270 - 1981 RTS - Back in service.
1751 and 1773 are still running too.
Q46#1751Gary
Q88#1773Gary
DAMN!!!!!! Just when I was coming to pay you guys a visit.........
x63#9269Mike
hello, again. Does anyone have any info on the cancellation of the "J" Shuttle for the weekend of 3/23-26? Will it resume on 3/30?
How goes the battle? What is the one thing that bugs you the most?
After driving a bus for over 10 years I would have to say that it's the people that still drive me crazy. I've learned to deal with the choking traffic and pyschopathic cab drivers. The cell phone glued to their ear, fumbling for change, didn't bother to read the destination sign, refusing to use the rear door, insisting on crowding in the front half of the bus, ringing the bell after the stop has been passed and then copping an attitude, morons who I have to deal with on a daily basis bug me to no end. I have always said that when a NYCTA driver reports to work he/she should receive a bottle of Prozac along with their trip sheet. What's Boston like?
I finally got around to scanning in the photos I took on 1/13/01 of the Branch Avenue extension opening. Oren has some on his page as well, I believe; mine were taken a little later in the day than his, as evinced by the longer shadows.
Clockwise from top right: Suitland station platform; Southern Ave station platform (the bridge is for the bus loop; I rode over it a few minutes later when I took the 32 bus back uptown); Branch Ave station mezzanine; Branch Ave station platform; a Breda car coming into Suitland station; and, center, a Breda car departing Suitland from the right-hand track (they follow the same reversing procedures as Franc-Sprgd and other end-of-line stations, departing from the arrival track then quickly switching tracks).
Hope you enjoy.
C
I finally got around to scanning in the photos I took on 1/13/01 of the Branch Avenue extension opening. Oren has some on his page as well, I believe; mine were taken a little later in the day than his, as evinced by the longer shadows.
Clockwise from top right: Suitland station platform; Southern Ave station platform (the bridge is for the bus loop; I rode over it a few minutes later when I took the 32 bus back uptown); Branch Ave station mezzanine; Branch Ave station platform; a Breda car coming into Suitland station; and, center, a Breda car departing Suitland from the right-hand track (they follow the same reversing procedures as Franc-Sprgd and other end-of-line stations, departing from the arrival track then quickly switching tracks).
Hope you enjoy.
C
Actually, most of the time, at the terminal stations, trains arrive on the inbound track by switching over BEFORE discharging. The ceremonial run that day did so at Branch, but every other train arrived on the "southbound track."
And BTW: Nice photos!
Thank you! And thanks for the info about track-switching.
C
I was looking recently at a Queens Bus Map and came up with a question. If anyone knows the answer it will end the mystery. I found that on Springfield Blvd in Bayside and many other areas there is a bus route marked X32. But on the map it does not list what company runs the line. Anyone know who runs the line? Thank you....
The X32 is operated by New York City Transit and is operated by Casey Stengel Depot.
BIG AL
There are also 3 extra runs that are out of Queens Village Depot. This service is mainly for those Queens students who attend Bronx High School of Science.
[...operated by Casey Stengel Depot.]
Currently, the X32 is operated entirely by QV Depot. The AM trips are incorporated into runs, and the PM trips are "extra" pieces.
Once upon a year, each depot had a part of the X32: CS ran the Bayside branch, JA ran the Jamaica branch, and QV ran the Oakland Gardens branch. Then it bounced back-and-forth between CS and QV; at one point, CS had all the morning trips and QV had the afternoon trips.
------
BTW: Since the X32 is an express route, student passes are NOT valid. All riders (student or otherwise) must pay $3 in coin, Pay-per-Ride MetroCard, or 30-Day Unlimited Express MetroCard.
If anyone looks at the front of an MTA bus, you'll know what I'm talking about. Facing the front of the bus, there is a number in the lower left. It does not match the route or bus number. Anyone know what this number means? Thank you...
That's the run number. It's mainly used by supervisors to identify which operator has that particular trip. (I know some of the b/o on the list will explain it better than I can.)
Actually, it does not identify the operator so much as the schedule the BUS is supposed to be on. The number stays the same throughout the bus's day; however different operators may operate the bus at different times of the bus's daily schedule.
That is the operators run number, as operators change, that number changes.
Each run number is assigned to a run, not the bus's day usage.
So for example, at 6am Bus #6360 will leave Manhattanville in the AM on Run 1 on the M2, when Run 1 is relieved the next operator, whos number will either be in the 10s or 20s will board the bus, change his run number to say Run 22 and program his box, then off he goes.
The Run number box is used by supervision to identify each operator and thier place in the schedule.
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Trevor I should have read your reply before posting my own! LOL!
I guess you're only referring to NYC Transit. The run number stays the same the duration of the buses workday in Houston. I know this because I've never seen the relief driver change the run number. Also, our run numbers are diffrent and randon down here. Run 1 is not called run one, it may have X252 or 636 or something like that.
BTW, Steve Hoskins is a bus driver so I think he knew what he was talking about, even if he didn't know about NYC transit.
Great, I'm a bus operator too effective two days ago, and prior to that spent my NJT career in the Maintenance Department, so I know my stuff too!!!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
~!
What the heck does that mean!
Trevor
Congratulations. But I've lived in Houston 16 years effective today at 9:30am Houston time so I KNOW I know my stuff. I was never questioning your expertise, I was just stating that Mr. Hoskins wasn't completely wrong because not all TAs rotate their run numbers per operator. In some cities, it lasts the duration the bus is in service. Mr. Hoskins is a bus operator too, I'm sure he knows his stuff as well. The world of transit doesn't end in DC you know. And judging by your response it seems to be a crime to challenge anything you post on this board. But, perhaps I'm taking things the wrong way. I'm not one to jump to conclusions.
Yes do not jump to conclusions. You really don't want to do that. The original question was based towards NYC Buses and so for that instance, Mr. Haskins explaination was null and void. I wasn't challenging his expertise on this subject but I was correcting him in the since that his explanation was not towards NYC Buses.
Let Mr. Haskins respond and correct if he sees fit. I'm pretty sure Mr. Haskins can stand up for himself.
Oh and my expertise goes far south-west-north and even east of DC! Dropping it!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Happy birthday, RTS.
Thanks, RTS....
And I've been a bus operator for almost 28 years.
The number in the boxes on the dash at almost every California system is the BUS RUN NUMBER. Operators go by a WORK RUN NUMBER which is NOT posted.
The only system I know of out here where I drive that does NOT post a bus run number is San Diego Transit. They do not have run number boxes in their buses. Instead, the drivers have a card with an assignment number on it, usually a four-digit number (and most seen to have leading zeroes), that they just stick against the inside of the windshield. Primitive, but it seems to work. It's been that way for the 30 years or so that I have been familiar with SDT.
Steve Hoskins writes:
"Actually, it does not identify the operator so much as the schedule the BUS is supposed to be on. The number stays the same throughout the bus's day; however different operators may operate the bus at different times of the bus's daily schedule."
That's not true. The run number directly identifies the bus operator for the entire day. If an operator is relieved, his run is relieved, and the subsequent operator changes the run number to reflect the new run.
Run 4 Route 44
Report: 6:53AM
Pull Out: 7:03AM (pulls out bus 1003)
R 3 10:22AM (already has bus 1002)
R11 11:36AM (receives bus 1004)
Clear: 3:19PM
Run 04 will pull out bus 1003 and give it to Run 03 at 10:22AM. Run 03 will change the run from 004 to 003.
When run 04 returns from meal, he will relieve run 011 and change the run number on bus 1004 from 011 to 004.
That's the run number, but it is not used to identify the operator as
ctrabs mentioned. It is used to identify the bus according to it's schedule. For instance, I'm run #10. (the 10th run to pull onto the line after 12:00am that day.) Run #10 is due at Main st & Roosevelt ave at 6:00pm. The dispatcher see's what time run 10 is due on his schedule board. So he will now know if I'm running late or early when I actually get there and be able to adjust me accordingly.
BIG AL
I haven't been "adjusted" in years. Whos your SLD?? :-)
WMATA reported on it's web site that it's annual Metrobus Roadeo will be held at the Landover Metrobus Division on April 28, starting at 8:00am. Landover Division is located just a few blocks from the Landover Metrorail station, at 3433 Pennsy Dr, though I guess by Prince George's County standards, these are long blocks.
will septa have a roadeo
Do all transit authorities have rodeos? I know that SEPTA and Ride-On and now Metro does. What about the NYCMTA and others?
The MBTA has their rodeo either at the Charlestown or Cabot garages, but I'm not sure which one. I'm pretty sure it's open to the public.
Does anyone know when the MBTA Roadeo is scheduled to take place?
I think the Worcester MA RTA also has a roadeo, I don't know if/when they have it scheduled, or where it would be held.
Mark Watson
WMATA has always had one to my knowledge.
I don't think it is that far. You can see Landover Division from the Metroliner to NYC (I've only taken the orange line out there once) and you can see the buses. IIRC, they aren't far from the Metro.
What does IIRC stand for?
IIRC means If I Remember Correctly.
Is the general public allowed to go to the roadeo? I was in one at Shuttle UM several years ago and they're pretty cool.
what ever happend to the septa nabi prototype
bus.
It's still in service. I think it runs out of Callowhill.
that the last bus that was made there is another
one
SEPTA rejected the original 5001 and sent it back to NABI, who might have sold it since then.
why did they reject it.
why did they reject it.
Enjoy
View 1
View 2
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
Right Click on the link and click on Open In New Window. That is the only way it'll come up!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
For the first time ever on The Route 5 (Frankford Terminal-Front & Market Sts.), an Ikarus "Olympian" (nicknamed because they have served the 1996 Atlanta Games) was spotted on that route. Once the domain of Neoplan AN440's (both 3000's and 8000's, and an occassional AN435) 5385 was on the line with its destination sign programmed for the route as well. The 5 has never even seen an RTS, which really stunned me. To me it could mean that some more New Flyer D40LF's may have come in, and the scrapping of the remaining 8000-series has begun (and scrapped MEANS scrapped). So take some photos of the 8000's because they will be gone soon (and hopefully they can retrofit the 3000's with Allisons from the 8000's, which I doubt). Here's a toast to the 8000's, they are still the best and we will miss you.
the 8000 series buses are plan to retired in 2years
The 3000 series are the second best with my favorite engine/transmission combination. But I'll have to admit, the 8000 series are a good ride. At least my favorite one, 8698, is going to be restored as a museum bus!
The reason there were no RTS coaches on the 5 was because the only known assignments for those buses were Allegheny, Callowhill, and Red Arrow. The 35 ft RTS buses started their careers at Frontier, however ended up in the city, either at Frankford or the late, lamented Luzerne (now Midvale). A CTD driver told me once that he took a 35 ft RTS on the 56 in the early 1990s.
As for the 8000s, it looks like their days are numbered. Ditto for the 1300s, which Red Arrow has the bulk of (three are at Midvale for use on the 35 Manayunk-Roxborough loop).
There is still only one D40LF on SEPTA property. The last known location for this bus was at Callowhill, however I personally have yet to see it (but, I probably will soon - I hope).
today i seen 1320 on the rt.46
When the Staten Island routes were renumbered what were the old routes?
I'm sorry, I lost the list that was previously posted here.
When were the Manhattan crosstown routes renumbered?
When did express busses switch from using an X suffix to an X prefix.
Forget the Staten Island Routes. I found an old message from Hank Eisenstein about the old Staten Island route numbers.
To the best of my recollection, the previous numbers of the Manhattan, Staten Island, and Queens expresses were as follows:
X1/X2/X3/X4/X5/X6/X7/X8/X9: formerly X9/X11/X13 (three numbers used for 23 different service patterns)
X11: formerly Travis branch of X10
X13: formerly Worth Street trips from X14
X63: formerly X20 (duplicated S.I. X20)
X64: formerly X24
X68: formerly X18 (duplicated S.I. X18)
X90: originally Av. B & East Bway Co. M7X, then X23 (5th/Madison branch)
X92: originally M23X, then X23
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51175-2001Mar23.html
. . . mentions Oren!
C
BTW: Do you know which editions ran my photo??? I have heard that some Saturday edition of Sundauy's paper ran this, do you know of this?
I didn't see yours in today's Sunday paper (NW DC delivery) -- the Early Sunday Edition would be hard to track down today; try Giant food, maybe.
Also look on the Post website -- they had a bunch of online extras, including some interesting movies about Metro -- they might have your photo in there somewhere.
C
Does anyone remember if the '72 '73 6xxx new looks were in service in NYC around 1990 besides Brooklyn?
You had 4800-4900's in the Bronx. Their Original function: BX55 the replacement for the Third Ave. Line
To anyone who knows the "REAL" answer. I need pinpoint accuracy on the year and model of Triboro GMC Fishbowl #744.
Thank You in Advance
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
NJT - Fairview Garage
Trevor, unless this is a trick question the answer is :
The bus is a T6H- 5307 A - serial # 0149 delivered to TCC in October of 1974. The bus built just before it, serial 148 former TCC 743 is the police bus that is parked alongside the GCP at 188th St. The delivery date is from RD Childs website (www.omot.org).
Do you have different info ????
I keep thinking that bus that parked on GCP everytime I pass by it on GCP every week. I was thinking that bus must be a Ex MTA bus. Is that ture?
GM Newlook#744
No, i needed it because I have a shot of it on TransiTALK but I never had the official year and model and with me rebuilding the site the way I am, I need as close to official information as possible.
Thank You SOOOOOOO Much!
Regards,
Trevor Logan
www.transitalk.com
i pass that piece of junk everyday in the battery tunnel. amazing they use it every day. i wonder what fare they charge. it is owned by hassidim and men sit in front with women in rear. theres another piece of garbage that says lake charter bus co. this gm is a late 60s early 70s with the appearance of a double decker.
(Gasp!) Hudson, you DARE call a New Look a piece of junk!? The extremist here will have your head for such treachery! (j/k)
But seriously, you don't like New Looks? From this site, everyone who has related a story about a TA owning New Looks has said everyone and their proverbial momma loved it; management on down to the drivers. I'm sure you've driven New Looks, how were they?
i do like the gme new look model
Today. At 12:50 PM. I saw #5501 on Q60. Then at 4:30 PM. I saw #5503 Not in service with the Q11 headsign. Then at 4:40 PM.Got on #5501 on Q60. The talking thing is still working by the way.
Orion5 #5501
Orion5 #5503
are the ddc50 engines,and the 6v92ta are turobocharge.
The 92's, the 50-series and the 60-series are all turbocharged. I'm not sure if the 71's are turbocharged (some may have been retofitted).
does a turbo makes a curtain sound
It has a more throatier sound.
i throuht that is make a air type of sound at high rpm
They pretty much have a whistling sound. I'm thinking that an air escaping type sound may indicate a blown turbo
Wayne
-- Also posted on SubTalk, but I thought the crowd here would be interested as well --
I've just returned from a week in Lagos, and thought some of the SubTalk crowd might be interested in some observations regarding transit in Lagos, as well as some other notes.
BACKGROUND
Lagos is a city of 10 million. There are three distinct areas of Lagos -- Mainland Lagos, Lagos Island and Victoria Island.
There is not a single functioning traffic light in all of Lagos. There is sporadic traffic control by police at major intersections. A network of modern limited access highways was constructed during the 70's and remains fundamentally intact (save for serious pothole problems in some spots). Nigeria (an OPEC member) prospered during the 70's oil boom, but deteriorated after a military overthrow of the government in the early 80's. Democratic rule was restored in late 1999.
In 1952, Lagos' population was just above 100,000. It has increased 100-fold in 48 years.
GETTING AROUND
Rail transit -- Lagos has no subway or light rail, and no current plans. While cruising across the Third Mainland Bridge, I was struck by how much the water and marsh islands reminded me of the A train going toward the Rockaways. Sitting in traffic on that same Bridge later that night, I really missed that A train. Although I did not get to see it, there is an inter-city train that makes one daily round trip between Lagos and Ibadan (another major Nigerian city). The two-hour trip frequently runs 5 to 6 hours behing schedule.
Bus transit -- Lagos had city run bus service until shortly after the military takeover. Bus routes were more like our Limiteds, with stops spread about a half-mile apart and corresponding to major residential or business areas. Many open air markets have built up around bus stops.
Van service -- Sprang up to replace the missing bus service. These are run by private owners along routes specified by the government, and make stops at the old bus stops. Most vans are at least 15 or 20 years old. On at least 5 occasions during my week in Lagos, I observed a van being pushed along its route by its riders. The most common vehicle is the old VW microbus. Second most common is a similar looking vehicle manufactured by Mercedes. All are painted in a color similar to our school busses. All are also covered completely with dents and dings. Nudging your competitor out of the way is apparently a well-accepted practice.
Most vans appear to run quite full -- I counted 15 people seated inside a VW van on many occasions. An additional person or two can freqeuntly be found hanging off the side (most of the side doors have been removed) during peak times -- though those persons may actually be associated with the operation of the service (conductors / fare collectors?). Boarding and stepping off moving vehicles is frequent.
Fares appear to start at 50 Naira (about 40 cents). I don't know if there are distance based fares or not. As I place quite a value on my own life, I did not ride any of the vans during my stay.
Government oversight appears to be loose at best, though they are trying to improve. Some new regulations went into effect while I was there -- drivers found off their licensed route are subject to fines of 250 Naira.
Motor Scooters -- Supplement the van service. As mentioned earlier, the vans operate like our limited buses. As the daytime temperature year-round is generally between 90 and 100 degrees, the walk from the bus stops can be hot in addition to being lengthy. The scooters are mainly two-seaters and take you from the van stop to your destination (with little regard for rules of the road). It is not at all uncommon to see a woman in full African dress riding along on the back of a scooter. Fares are negotiated.
Traffic -- is like nothing I've seen anywhere else. The Cross Bronx is a Sunday drive across the park by comparison. Disregard for traffic law and convention is frequent, and generally serves to make congestion worse. Sidewalks are considered an excellent way of getting around gridlock.
OTHER NOTES
Electricity -- combine rampant growth with a lack of planning and you get California to the 100th power. Most homes are without power during the day (unless they have their own generators, which still require a supply of scarce diesel fuel), when power is diverted to industrial and office uses. Power is about a 50/50 proposition for a residence at night. NEPA (Nigerian Electric Power Authority, or Never Electric Power Anytime depending on who you talk to) has not built a new plant (or at least one that works) in more than 20 years. U.S. based Enron is currently working with NEPA to build a new plant as well as to modernize distribution and it is widely believed that power problems will be a thing of the past by the end of this year.
Water -- is only a problem if you need electricity to pump it. Unfortunately, most homes in Lagos require electricity to pump the water. Various water pumps are located in public areas. How does any self respecting citizen of Lagos carry their 25 liter water bucket? On their head. This has the added benefit of blocking out the hot sun.
Crime -- has died down recently. Nigeria recently led a U.N. peacekeeping force in Sierra Leone. Upon the soldiers return, the government did not have enough money to pay the soldiers. Soldiers were offered a choice between an IOU from the government or they could keep their weapon as full payment. No joke -- somebody thought this was a good idea. To the (apparent) shock of that same somebody, armed robbery skyrocketed. Most middle and upper class families in Lagos now live behind multiple barriers. A six foot high concrete wall with locking gate topped by barbed wire and/or broken glass surrounds most houses. Followed by a locking gate at the doors to the house. Bedrooms have all been moved to the second floor. Locking iron gate inside the house at the bottom of the stairs and another locking iron gate at the top of the stairs. Bars on all windows.
All in all, an interesting trip.
Chuck
If one looks at the AM General production lists, they show 300 buses being beuilt for the Nigerian Ministry of Defense in Lagos in 1976!!!!
Wonder where all the AM Generals went? They were 9635B-6 models, serieals 001-030 of this model.